(In the beginning) I just wanted to say that breaking a rule because you think it is wrong/silly/stupid/immoral isn't the right way to address the situation. As "pointless restrictions" go this wasn't one of them - the school didn't want them to use the laptops for pr0n and chatting - shouldn't that be enough?
Forget the felony charges, forget their approach to dealing with this problem. Just remember they were told not to do something and they still did it. No matter how easy it was to break that rule, it isn't their right to break it. (shit, going to mother and complaining, getting her to complain to the school, is often enough to change things at school. In my day I saw this happen a lot with a buddies mother who cried and whined until everything was changed around just him!)
We've gotten so far off of the original point that you've beaten me on semantics. I don't know when I said that "laws" create/dictate morality - likely I was trying to say the opposite. No matter, I just said that people need to exercise restraint when dealing with silly, easy to break rules. (Which when I think of it were likely instituted to protect the computers, not the kids. Teenagers and pr0n is the quickest route to spyware, dialers and virus infestation).
Everything I've typed thus far has been stretched so far out of proportion that I can't even wrap my mind around the topic. You've been the one trying to put thoughts into my head and saying one thing and then denying it (like that you break those silly/small laws, but you aren't a law breaker and then connecting that to some sort of hedonism).
I never intended to _make it seem like_ I was calling you a hedonist because you don't follow the same sort of restrictions that I do. I was just trying to say that my _self imposed_ restrictions has made it a lot easier to respect some of those rules/norms/mores/laws that seem silly to everyone else. By swearing off things I once loved I can see how/why some (of our own and other societies) norms exist. As far as women wanting to vote in Africa (the example you provided) - I'd only support it if the change comes from the inside. I think going "there" and telling them to change is exactly what destroys a society that has existed (and worked quite perfectly) for so long. Sometimes things are a certain way because it has worked for so long (like cannibalism in some parts of the world - immoral and taboo here, but works great there) and that under the surface things are a lot more different than how they seem.
There is a story of a village (where? in the South Pacific I think - you have to forgive me as I read this years ago) who did all of these rituals and worship before crop planting and reaping. Westerners came in and said "this is silly and unscientific, you should do this" and two years later the entire village was starving. That was my point about people who watch anthropology shows and say "women aren't provided equal status? how barbaric!" or some other type of criticism.
Sorry you think I'm an idiot, sorry you think that I advocate being a mindless sheep (this whole time I thought that I was a progressive democrat and ACLU supporter!), I'm sorry I've got a different world view than you. I'm adding you to my friends list right now.
Ohio Revised Code for one... you do the grunt work if you don't believe me. It varies from state to state and I don't have law interns to do the research for me.
Yeah, that's great that you got all of Window Maker Applets all lined up in a column there and it has a *few* of the things that was supposed to be in Longhorn. I still used Gkrellm a lot... ugghh. (I wonder how you've got Thunderbird 1.0 *and* Firefox 1.0 on your desktop - I never used Thunderbird under Linux so I don't know the version numbers but they didn't match up in the Windows world... did they?)
Geez, you don't have to convince me, I'm not 'Windoze fanboi'... just pointing out to the GP that this "Google Sidebar" is very similar to the Longhorn Sidebar.
That is basically true (or suspected) across many boundaries. Hell, I've always known deep down that if people tell you they don't care about you and what you do - you'll never care about them either. And isn't that were violence happens? I had to do a report on school violence and found that as more was done to "lock down" a school the more violent the kids became. When given an old grandmother type to be a "security guard" the kids acted more respectfully and were more likely to discuss their problems instead of using violence.
I'd say that using video games (TV, movies, drugs) to placate your children makes them realize you don't care.
I shudder when I see how kids are being raised today (and I'm only 25!). How much has changed over the past 15-20 years? My mother would have never used TV or video games to keep me "entertained" even though we both enjoyed them together from time to time. I guess that is one reason I'm totally non-violent and never wish my enemies *real* harm (although in jest I've been known to "damn" a few people by name, politicans mostly).
Well, my TI-99 'died' when my little brother smashed it with a hammer (something a lot of people here thought was funny when I reported it, me not as much).
I had the giant disk drive (Peripheral Expansion Box), but it never quite worked right.
Oh, and that to lose your right to vote as a felon in many states you must serve at least a year and a day in jail. Meaning that if you were paroled 8 months into a 5 year sentence then you can still vote (as long as you don't go back and serve the other 4 months).
You, however, wished to use the 'finding them guilty' part to teach them a lesson, with no punishment. And the reason you wish to remove the punishment is because you know they didn't actually commit the crime they were accused of, and do not wish to them to be harmed with a real felony conviction.
Dude, read my posts... they are fucking kids who will never have to pay anything for their convictions anyways! First time offenders and minors who will never have to talk about their "record" again. I don't even care if they broke the exact law they are being charged with at this point - the reality is that something has to be done and we can't just say "Forget it, you're right... become a sociopath if you'd like... you are all that matters".
And, on top of that, if you base your morality on societal, that leads right into Nazi Germany or witch burning or slavery or all the various times in history that societies have decided something is okay and been utterly wrong. Society does not dictate morality, and it cannot.
Right, right. Sure, and that is why you don't believe in "laws". YOU ARE FUCKING RETARDED! Society in fact dictates morality - look at a nice place called Utah where you can't get things like porn in the state because the majority has said "no". In times like slavery and Nazism, well, that was a select few deciding on morality and look how it has always ended up. However, with your stance on the law we'd slowly slip into that anyways.
If someone is shown that there are consequences to rather inane actions maybe they will be more mindful of "the rules" (social norms, laws, etc) of what is expected of them as people.
Oh, yes. Everyone fall in line. The system is always right, the system has asolute power, don't buck the system.
Here's a shocker for you: I don't believe in rules and laws. At all. I base no moral decisions on them, I ascribe them no moral weight.
No, can you read. Sorry that society expects you to get dressed, not sexually harass/rape women and kill people you don't like. Do you look at the other men in the urinals? Do you piss anywhere you want when you think you've got to go? If you didn't "believe" in social norms (something pretty undeniable) then I'd doubt that you worked or made it this far alive. Of course we usually call these people assholes, degenerates and other nice names.
Don't buck the system? I advocated that about 5 posts ago - just don't go fucking breaking the laws/rules/norms because you don't agree - only you will pay. Change it, or fuck yourself.
Laws are not moral decisions. Anyone who refrains from killing people because it's illegal is a dangerous and immoral person. You cannot 'offshore' you morality to the law, because the law changes.
You're not listening. You're not listening. You're not listening.
Isn't the restriction on murder a moral law or just 'good planning'? If you don't think that restriction is based on morality - I don't get it.
You cannot 'offshore' you morality to the law, because the law changes. You cannot assert that it is immoral to break the law, because if you come up with a system of ethics based on current law and compare them to the law 200 years ago, you'd see that you are supposed to do things now, under the law, that were forbidden 200 years ago.
You don't get the fact that society does pick what is okay, and you have been advocating that what these kids did when breaking the _rules_ was okay - it was _moral_ to have broken them (right?). You have even proven my point the society will always dictate the law based on their system of beliefs, their taboos and their _morality_.
Unless you want to run around asserting that what is moral can change.
It does, you've shown that with your made up fact that things are that much different from
Never really mentioned food except Taco Bell. Let's say you went with no red meat, or something else like lettuce.
No matter, you act as if you are different from everyone else, as if there is nothing that you do for yourself. Unbelievable.
Like I said, I've already lost you - you can't see the point of restraint even in the "treats" you give yourself. You act as if changing something small, that no one else will notice, will impact your entire life or the things you treat yourself with you "deserve".
Fuck it, I don't care about it/you that much.
I bet you are one of those people who watch anthropology documentaries and say things like "Why the fuck don't those people just stop doing XXXX" or "They believe in XXXX or practice XXX - What the hell is wrong with them?".... "Why don't they just move to the United States and go to Wal-Mart...."
Slashdot Mirror
What's sad is that I knew that, I really did... I just was having a brain fart because I thought it was really funny at the time when I typed it.
Actually, now that I think about it I think I've seen stuff about Gates going to PARC, but maybe they were confused too...
They are socialists, they just buy one copy and share!
(In the beginning) I just wanted to say that breaking a rule because you think it is wrong/silly/stupid/immoral isn't the right way to address the situation. As "pointless restrictions" go this wasn't one of them - the school didn't want them to use the laptops for pr0n and chatting - shouldn't that be enough?
Forget the felony charges, forget their approach to dealing with this problem. Just remember they were told not to do something and they still did it. No matter how easy it was to break that rule, it isn't their right to break it. (shit, going to mother and complaining, getting her to complain to the school, is often enough to change things at school. In my day I saw this happen a lot with a buddies mother who cried and whined until everything was changed around just him!)
We've gotten so far off of the original point that you've beaten me on semantics. I don't know when I said that "laws" create/dictate morality - likely I was trying to say the opposite. No matter, I just said that people need to exercise restraint when dealing with silly, easy to break rules. (Which when I think of it were likely instituted to protect the computers, not the kids. Teenagers and pr0n is the quickest route to spyware, dialers and virus infestation).
Everything I've typed thus far has been stretched so far out of proportion that I can't even wrap my mind around the topic. You've been the one trying to put thoughts into my head and saying one thing and then denying it (like that you break those silly/small laws, but you aren't a law breaker and then connecting that to some sort of hedonism).
I never intended to _make it seem like_ I was calling you a hedonist because you don't follow the same sort of restrictions that I do. I was just trying to say that my _self imposed_ restrictions has made it a lot easier to respect some of those rules/norms/mores/laws that seem silly to everyone else. By swearing off things I once loved I can see how/why some (of our own and other societies) norms exist. As far as women wanting to vote in Africa (the example you provided) - I'd only support it if the change comes from the inside. I think going "there" and telling them to change is exactly what destroys a society that has existed (and worked quite perfectly) for so long. Sometimes things are a certain way because it has worked for so long (like cannibalism in some parts of the world - immoral and taboo here, but works great there) and that under the surface things are a lot more different than how they seem.
There is a story of a village (where? in the South Pacific I think - you have to forgive me as I read this years ago) who did all of these rituals and worship before crop planting and reaping. Westerners came in and said "this is silly and unscientific, you should do this" and two years later the entire village was starving. That was my point about people who watch anthropology shows and say "women aren't provided equal status? how barbaric!" or some other type of criticism.
Sorry you think I'm an idiot, sorry you think that I advocate being a mindless sheep (this whole time I thought that I was a progressive democrat and ACLU supporter!), I'm sorry I've got a different world view than you. I'm adding you to my friends list right now.
I didn't say society didn't dictate morality. (Although they don't.) I said the laws don't dictate morality.
then...
Society does, in fact, choose what is acceptable to it.
I give up.
Ohio Revised Code for one... you do the grunt work if you don't believe me. It varies from state to state and I don't have law interns to do the research for me.
Maybe they are going to just ask "Why do you hate our software so much?" and try to get people back into their camp....
I see nothing wrong with that, however I don't think it will work.
This is worse than when Jobs and Gates were invited to Xerox!
I was thinking of using this to power my car - gas is getting kinda high...
Maybe I can jam it into a hybrid and get a few extra hundred miles out of the tank...
I knew this was going to happen.
Yeah, that's great that you got all of Window Maker Applets all lined up in a column there and it has a *few* of the things that was supposed to be in Longhorn. I still used Gkrellm a lot... ugghh. (I wonder how you've got Thunderbird 1.0 *and* Firefox 1.0 on your desktop - I never used Thunderbird under Linux so I don't know the version numbers but they didn't match up in the Windows world... did they?)
Geez, you don't have to convince me, I'm not 'Windoze fanboi'... just pointing out to the GP that this "Google Sidebar" is very similar to the Longhorn Sidebar.
Seems to just like the other Windows sidebar projects out there...
Sadly the whole idea is taken from Longhorn.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_Windows
That is basically true (or suspected) across many boundaries. Hell, I've always known deep down that if people tell you they don't care about you and what you do - you'll never care about them either. And isn't that were violence happens? I had to do a report on school violence and found that as more was done to "lock down" a school the more violent the kids became. When given an old grandmother type to be a "security guard" the kids acted more respectfully and were more likely to discuss their problems instead of using violence.
I'd say that using video games (TV, movies, drugs) to placate your children makes them realize you don't care.
I shudder when I see how kids are being raised today (and I'm only 25!). How much has changed over the past 15-20 years? My mother would have never used TV or video games to keep me "entertained" even though we both enjoyed them together from time to time. I guess that is one reason I'm totally non-violent and never wish my enemies *real* harm (although in jest I've been known to "damn" a few people by name, politicans mostly).
I wonder how you know....
Well, my TI-99 'died' when my little brother smashed it with a hammer (something a lot of people here thought was funny when I reported it, me not as much).
I had the giant disk drive (Peripheral Expansion Box), but it never quite worked right.
Oh, and that to lose your right to vote as a felon in many states you must serve at least a year and a day in jail. Meaning that if you were paroled 8 months into a 5 year sentence then you can still vote (as long as you don't go back and serve the other 4 months).
Please learn the law before you argue over it.
It's a shame that being a felon as a minor doesn't carry over to adulthood... yours and everyone else's arguments don't hold water.
I had a TI-99/4A that hooked up to a TV and it never played movies - you could only change the terminal colors with BASIC!
Is this you?
;)
Couldn't help it since it's the next thread down.
GTA just makes me want to jump out of moving cars and run around the streets in circles with my gun drawn.
One day I'll get my hands on the person who started this debate and KILL THEM!
Maybe because I'm using of these new displays - but your entire post was replaced with *'s!
What about posting PGP messages to newsgroups?
Not exactly hidden, but pretty safe and has been going on for years.
I find Dial doesn't dry my skin like Ivory soap...
someone asked didn't they?
You, however, wished to use the 'finding them guilty' part to teach them a lesson, with no punishment. And the reason you wish to remove the punishment is because you know they didn't actually commit the crime they were accused of, and do not wish to them to be harmed with a real felony conviction.
Dude, read my posts... they are fucking kids who will never have to pay anything for their convictions anyways! First time offenders and minors who will never have to talk about their "record" again. I don't even care if they broke the exact law they are being charged with at this point - the reality is that something has to be done and we can't just say "Forget it, you're right... become a sociopath if you'd like... you are all that matters".
And, on top of that, if you base your morality on societal, that leads right into Nazi Germany or witch burning or slavery or all the various times in history that societies have decided something is okay and been utterly wrong. Society does not dictate morality, and it cannot.
Right, right. Sure, and that is why you don't believe in "laws". YOU ARE FUCKING RETARDED! Society in fact dictates morality - look at a nice place called Utah where you can't get things like porn in the state because the majority has said "no". In times like slavery and Nazism, well, that was a select few deciding on morality and look how it has always ended up. However, with your stance on the law we'd slowly slip into that anyways.
If someone is shown that there are consequences to rather inane actions maybe they will be more mindful of "the rules" (social norms, laws, etc) of what is expected of them as people.
Oh, yes. Everyone fall in line. The system is always right, the system has asolute power, don't buck the system.
Here's a shocker for you: I don't believe in rules and laws. At all. I base no moral decisions on them, I ascribe them no moral weight.
No, can you read. Sorry that society expects you to get dressed, not sexually harass/rape women and kill people you don't like. Do you look at the other men in the urinals? Do you piss anywhere you want when you think you've got to go? If you didn't "believe" in social norms (something pretty undeniable) then I'd doubt that you worked or made it this far alive. Of course we usually call these people assholes, degenerates and other nice names.
Don't buck the system? I advocated that about 5 posts ago - just don't go fucking breaking the laws/rules/norms because you don't agree - only you will pay. Change it, or fuck yourself.
Laws are not moral decisions. Anyone who refrains from killing people because it's illegal is a dangerous and immoral person. You cannot 'offshore' you morality to the law, because the law changes.
You're not listening. You're not listening. You're not listening.
Isn't the restriction on murder a moral law or just 'good planning'? If you don't think that restriction is based on morality - I don't get it.
You cannot 'offshore' you morality to the law, because the law changes. You cannot assert that it is immoral to break the law, because if you come up with a system of ethics based on current law and compare them to the law 200 years ago, you'd see that you are supposed to do things now, under the law, that were forbidden 200 years ago.
Start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mores
You don't get the fact that society does pick what is okay, and you have been advocating that what these kids did when breaking the _rules_ was okay - it was _moral_ to have broken them (right?). You have even proven my point the society will always dictate the law based on their system of beliefs, their taboos and their _morality_.
Unless you want to run around asserting that what is moral can change.
It does, you've shown that with your made up fact that things are that much different from
Never really mentioned food except Taco Bell. Let's say you went with no red meat, or something else like lettuce.
.... "Why don't they just move to the United States and go to Wal-Mart...."
No matter, you act as if you are different from everyone else, as if there is nothing that you do for yourself. Unbelievable.
Like I said, I've already lost you - you can't see the point of restraint even in the "treats" you give yourself. You act as if changing something small, that no one else will notice, will impact your entire life or the things you treat yourself with you "deserve".
Fuck it, I don't care about it/you that much.
I bet you are one of those people who watch anthropology documentaries and say things like "Why the fuck don't those people just stop doing XXXX" or "They believe in XXXX or practice XXX - What the hell is wrong with them?"
Keep on playing NFL 2K1 for Dreamcast like I've been doing for quite a few years now?