Slashdot Mirror
Kutztown Students get Felony Charges
gone6713 writes "The 13 students from Pennsylvania who were accused of hacking the iBooks provided to them by the school (Slashdot had a previous story on them back in June) have offically been charged. It seems that the admin passwords were taped to the back of the iBooks!"
You know, I'm really not surprised to hear this. Despite all the precautions companies/ institutions take, it's typically human negligence or social engineering that leads to many compromises. While doing a spot check of security at work, I was surprised to find many employees had taped their passwords to the bottom of their keyboard or mouse.
Rule#1 make sure your users (employees, admins, etc) understand the importance of confidentiality.
"Simplify, simplify, simplify!" Thoreau
It's shit like this that makes me want to leave the country.
That's like saying do not push the big red button!
While the students should face some kind of consequences, in my opinion, the sheer stupidity puts this at the fault of those "victims" rather than the students.
The Computations of AdamR
http://www.adamreyher.com
Some time ago, I made the stupid mistake of purchasing one of these legal packets of policies and legal documents to get your business going. It was all boilerplate, of course, but I decided that I could not trust the quality of the packet after reading the computer security policy provided.
This policy stipulated that passwords were only to be changed by the MIS department, and that all password requests must go through them. I have no idea what the writer (probably a second-rate lawyer) was thinking here, and I ultimately threw this packet away for this reason.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
See? This label of "hacker" to students who can read the back of a book is what is going to get them convicted of something. This is just all-around completely absurd. It's like if I were to always leave my keys in the ignition of my car: plain stupid.
is making them use Apples, and therefor training them to "hack" on a platform that has a mere 2% of the marketshare when they could be "hacking" on Windows and having a chance to make it as real time "hackers" in the real world that 90% of the computers use. Sounds like a school I want to send my kids to. Actually sounds like the typical school wasting 10's of thousands on Macs.
ignorance is bliss. googlefiberatx.com
Where I work, I seem to get three levels of password security. The worst are the ones who write their password on a post-it note and stick it on the monitor. The second level are the ones who write it in a notepad and put it in their desk drawer. The really smart ones write it in a notepad and put that in their bottom drawer. Sometimes I wonder why I bother.
I might not be a wit, but at least I am more than half way there.
...the world makes a better idiot. (its a joke, laugh)
I don't get it.
If your going to charge the kids with felonies, then you should charge the IT administrators with aiding and abetting for leaving the password there.
Make sure to slap the hungry monkey's wrist that sees a stick next to an ant hill. Does wonders for intellectual development on a macro- and microscale.
Isn't it? To make example of certain people to buy the compliance of the rest of us (sheep)?
Especially in highschools. Or maybe just PA (I live 20 minutes from Kutztown). I remember a girl getting treated like a drug dealer because she a)bought aspirin to the school and didn't hand it over to the school nurse (so that she could subsequently go back to the school nurse when it's time to take them - talk about being treated like a 5 year old) and b)giving one to her friends that had a headache.
IIRC, she was kicked out of the district.
Variations of this heavy-handedness happens so often everywhere that I'm surprised it makes the news anymore. I think Columbine made it worse because now the administrators are going apeshit over every little thing - turning the schools into a sort of police state.
What would be news would be the punishment fitting the crime. But then the school administrators would have to admit that they are mostly at fault in this case (really: taping the passwords to the back of the computers?!)
land of the free? Even at this 'laptop crime' level I see a trend. I do hope the kids that did this will fight back HARD to let them know how ridiculous the situation is. Time to call eff?
45 Railroad St.
Kutztown Pa. 19530
Is it just me or is that a police department that's begging for a tide of unwanted mail?
Really, can't we get the media to stop using the work Hack in this way? Finding a password taped onto a notebook isn't hacking.
Sure, they may have used the computers in way which they shouldn't but, they didn't have to hack them.
I know, I know... the average Joe couldn't tell the difference between anything remotely technical but the media shouldn't be encourage it.
I think I'll go let Windows Hack into my neighbor's unsecured wireless access point.
I think I think, therefore I think I am.
If passwords were given, it is the fault of the admins. As per students they could be charged with what they did afterwards. But could admins could be charged with faliure to do their job? or baiting the students
I'll be happy to lead the way in /.'ing their phone system with my phoned-in question of "Why, public citizens?" until they answer.
Sorry, this is publicly federally-funded property. The 1st Amendment protects their freedom of expressing themselves on any federally-funded property.
Let's get that phone number, I've got time to remind them that they're responsible to me, the taxpayer.
First, I will agree that felony charges here is rather extreme, and someone isn't thinking. A few days of detention (for both the students and the security administrator) would be more appropriate.
But the fact that the passwords were on the back of the iBooks does not mean everyone was free to use them at will.
I can tape the key to my house on to the front door of my house, and while that is extreme stupidity on my part, that does not give you permission to unlock the door and come inside.
I want a new quote. One that won't spill. One that don't cost too much. Or come in a pill.
From the article:
Now that's not the only thing that the kids are accused of doing, they also turned off the monitoring software (Apple Remote Desktop?) and even used it to monitor the admins. In addition, they're accused of using hacking tools to find the new admin password when it was changed from the password that was taped on the back of the machines.
Also, if you click on the little update link at the bottom of the story, you'll see that the kids were also found to be downloading pornography. Might sound innocent to some of you, but adults / the school can get in trouble for "allowing" them access to X-rated material.
Now, a third degree felony sounds harsh, but they still need some punishment. If they had stopped at using the password taped onto the back of the computers I'd feel sorry for them, but they were spying on admins and using other means to get the password once it was changed.
Advice for my fellow geeks: before seeking out that threesome you dream of, you might see what a TWOsome is like first.
I went to this high school and grew up in this town. Let me tell you this...The system administrators never had a firm grip on the students, I assure you...and they had been outdone several times before this. Suffice to say, the school tends to overreact about things that they don't understand...and Computers is one of those topics. I work in IT now and now that I understand security and such, I realized how much my high school sucked about security...they never really thought about it. Anyways...its kind of amusing to find my hometown on Slashdot...its little more then a farming town with a college in it. My graduating class was 140 people.
L8tr all.
Only the sensationalist news media has called the teens "hackers". Believe it or not, most judges understand the difference, and their defense lawyers will at least argue the point enough to inform any jury that gaining access is not the same as hacking.
Regardless
The law is not about hacking, it is about Unauthorized Entry. You don't have to pick the lock to be somewhere you shouldn't, and you don't have to cut through any fences to be prosecuted.
Rex is 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
...that read:
"Acceptance of this laptop may expose your child to FELONY charges"
Would any of the parents allowed their child to have one?
in our increasingly vengence based culture. Some principal or admin got his feathers ruffled that student's would actually use the passwords taped to their computers and is now on a rampage to bring them into submission or destroy their lives. I'm surprised they haven't been labeled terrorists by now. This goes way beyond this school district... witness the proliferation of "no tolerance" policies. Everyone makes mistakes, especially teens... we as a society should be focused on correcting mistakes and giving people the chance to learn from them. It's only those who refuse to recognze they made a mistake or continually fail to learn from them that need to be dragged in front of the courts.
The password that were tapped to the machines were the ones you were suppose to use. This is just silly, its not hacking if no subversive activties happen to aquire the password or to "hack" the software on the machine. I mean i don't like iChat, but its far from damaging to the school system.
And "looking at what people give you" stop ?
I'd assume they'd WANT me to know the admin password if it was taped to the back of the laptop.
I'm crossing Pensylvania off the list of states where I'd ever live. Felony charges?. Geez, maybe suspend them from school for insubordination, but giving them a criminal record is.. well criminal.
AccountKiller
Your class was just about 10 times larger than my class.
A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
I posted too early... The updated link says that they were offered "informal adjustments." If they agree to be monitored and stay out of trouble for several months, charges will be dropped.
Advice for my fellow geeks: before seeking out that threesome you dream of, you might see what a TWOsome is like first.
Kids are kids, and are of course going to be curious and try to stuff they know they shouldn't be doing. An admin password taped to the underside of the computer would be tempting for a rational, intelligent adult to use, much less a school-age kid!
Hell, if the admins are taping obvious admin passwords to student computers, how lax is the security on the rest of the school's network, where data like student names, addresses and grades are kept? I think the school district/board/admins/whoever are going after these kids with such zeal to keep the spotlight off what would be, in any other industry, criminally negligent network administration and security.
I think we should all take a moment to be thankful the network admins at that school district aren't working anywhere where their incompetence would cause serious trouble, like a financial institution.
Here are a few addresses for some teachers at that school. If you disagree with this school's behavior then let your opinion be known! ddrummer@kasd.org cdougherty@kasd.org sdeangelis@kasd.org
This story is short and doesn't give the fully story of what happened.
*At first* the passwords were on the laptops (not exactly tapped; they were apart of some tapped data. It didn't say "Password:" if that's what you're thinking).
After the admin changed them all, the kids then used a brute force cracker to break the passwords which they found on the local machines (password file?) and proceeded to install unauthorized software.
They were punished multiple times and they still continued to do it. Calling the cops on them was a last resort the schools were forced to do.
You can read more of the full story here: http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/internet/08/09/kutzto wn.hackers.ap/index.html
If you read the article, you also probably read this:And also:So this isn't just a simple case of using the written down the admin password. There's also been a count of computer theft added to the charges, so I don't know what that's all about.
Would have been for the school to take back the laptops from any student breaking school policy. The kids broke the rules over and over again, take away their toy. Why was there a lawsuit in the first place? Something is missing from this story....
Yes, the administration was stupid for taping the passwords and someone in their office definetly needs to be punished, but what happened to the value of honesty?
...bullshit!
We all love to complain about crooked politicians and evil corporations, and yet when an individual's honesty is tested we give them a pass... "it's the school's fault that the students hacked into their lent laptops"
These students came to a diverging path... and instead of taking the high road and telling someone about fixing the security hole, they chose to abuse it.
Fuck 'em.
If it were my kids getting this kind of BS treatment, I'd be suing school district for damaging my kid's reputation and future earning potential. But not just the district as a defendent entity: it would be personal so I'd go after the *individuals* on the school board, executive administration and IT department. No pension, house, IRA, etc. for you, I got liens on your *ss. If the board members have "real" jobs I'd go to their employers and ask them if they could afford to continue employing people with such poor judgement - what kind of liability could that kind of person cause you, Mr. Employer?
And then there's civil rights vios and malpractice by the DA...
Felony charges my *ss. You want Win-Lose where my kids are concerned I'll turn it around to Lose-Win by any means possible or if that's not possible only Lose-Lose or "scorched earth" will be an acceptable option.
Theodore Cole Jr.
Chief of Police
Kutztown Burough Police Department
45 Railroad Street
Kutztown, PA 19530
Phone: (610) 683-3545
Fax: (610) 683-9270
kutztownpd@kutztownpd.org
Mark C. Baldwin, Esquire
District Attorney
Berks County Services Center
633 Court Street, 5th Floor
Reading, PA 19601
Mon-Fri, 8 a.m. to 5 p.m.
610.478.6000
610.478.6002
da@countyofberks.com
How can we ever expect students to think for themselves when teachers and administrators are totally incapable of it?
And if they don't let him use his own laptop in the school there will be a lawsuit.
Blar.
45 Railroad St.
Kutztown, PA 19530
(610) 683-3545
Borough of Kutztown:
45 Railroad St.
Kutztown, PA 19530
(610) 683-6131
fax (610) 683-6729
Kutztown Area School District: District Administration
50 Trexler Ave.
Kutztown, PA 19530
(610) 683-7361
fax (610) 683-7230
more addresses and phone numbers for the District
I find the quote "We are a country awakened to danger and called to defend freedom." at the bottom of the Borough's webpage inappropriate for this town.
Hey everyone, just a reality check here.
/.'ers! 600 laptops * 1 hour apiece = 600 hours. One tech, working a 40 hour week, only fixing those laptops, would be at the task for 15 weeks. Add in more techs, with 40 hour weeks devoted only to this task, and it reduces. Who sees a problem with this situation?
These kids are being prosecuted under the class of felony, because laws in place for _years_ in Pennsylvania, USA have ruled thus. It is not unjust, it is not unwarranted. The kids are charged not merely with abusing an administrative password, but with pursuing the access from which they were told to refrain.
Please read more about the situation. These kids were punished and reprimanded several times, and the admin password changed. However, they insisted on using password cracking tools to assault the systems and discover the new passwords, instead of merely letting bygones be bygones. They continued their actions against the will of the school administration, and pushed the limits of the situation. When the school ran out of punishments available to them, they forwarded the incident to the local police, not unlike if the situation instead had been repeated violence or drug abuse.
The fact that the kids (and their parents) are begging for leniancy and asking the school to simply look at it as a game the kids played, and reward the students for their "ingenuity" is simply absurd. They caused the school to lose money on IT personell who had to spend their time chasing down the kids, and resetting the comprimised laptops.
I've heard it quoted in a couple places that it would take a mere "hour per laptop" to fix the problems encountered, and that the school should simply fund that time, instead of punished those who explot the systems. Math time
Take a minute to read and learn, before you flame the local and state governments for harsh "unmerited" penalties. Ignorance of the law is no excuse, remember? If you're not smart enough to know the consequences for your actions, you shouldn't be doing them. Especially computer hacking.
Whoever taped those passwords to the back of the computers needs to be fired. Whoever gave that person a job needs to be fired. Whoever has the authority to demand that the people above must be fired immediately but hasn't needs to be fired.
But this isn't happening. Rather than start demanding even a fleeting glimpse of intelligence within the public schools the parents simply get together and whine that the people they voted for have their heads so far up their rectum that you can't distinguish a fart from a whistle don't engage in sphincter-yoga.
Yes, there is the possibility that these parents didn't vote this particular schoolboard (and mayor , who allowed this particular police chief and DA to make such stupid decisions), but I'll hedge my bets and say that either they voted for them or didn't vote at all.
Are they demanding the resignation of the board? No.
Are they demanding the resignation of the DA? No.
Are they even promising to vote for somebody else in the next election? No.
So if they don't care enough to actually DO something about the situation, why should anybody else?
If the g'vt kept the data on you that google does you'd better believe you'd be calling it "doing evil"
This allows them to rationalize their behaviour as just because they are fighting back against a much larger and powerful...uh...foe?
Blar.
What good does all of this do? That's the question you must ask when looking at a case like this. I'd argue that no good will come of this. I've done lots of "illegal" things with my computer over the years. You know what? If I would have been caught as a teen, I would have gone so bad. It would have pissed me off enough that I more than likely would have become a full fledged sociopath.
The thing is, nearly anyone with an IQ over 150 has the potential to snap very quickly - if you are better than everyone else why not teach them all a lesson? Charging intelligent young people with crimes like this is just going to breed malcontents, law breakers, and home grown terrorists. If you are smart enough to pull down six figures a year but because of a stupid computer crime conviction you can only get a job at Taco Bell you are going to be one bitter mother-fucker.
It was one thing to essentially commandeer borrowed government property. (It doesn't matter if they negligently made the key available for use or not.) They also went about expanding their control first by blocking the admin's ability to monitor then by breaking into the admin account again... it was not taped to the computer the second time.
Afterward, they went on to monitoring the admin.
This is their defiance of authority and that's the message here.
On one hand, I think it's "harsh" what is being done to the kids -- I really do. But there's a larger picture here that should be acknowledged.
How many times have you been completely and utterly insulted by children who know there's nothing you can do about it. That is, in essence, what has happened here. When it was realized that the kids were breakign rules, they were essentially given the chance to straighten up when they were discovered and their admin passwords changed. The kids responded by being even mroe defiant and even aggressive about it.
We have a cultural mess on our hands. I'm just sick enough of defiant children to endorse the reaction we are seeing here. You can't spank children any more. Somehow it became a crime. You can't even talk "mean" to them -- it's somehow psychological abuse as well. As a culture, we cannot control the children. And it's clear that most parents will not regulate their offspring as well... (at least without fear of criminal problems much of the time)
I have two sons of my own and at the moment, my biggest problem is getting them to tell the truth. I haven't seen evidence of anything worse... not yet anyway. Respect for authority is a critical lesson in life that needs to be learned. If we have to make 13 examples of these kids, then so be it. It could help in changing the path for millions of other kids out there... kids that will one day grow up and lead this world. And if you think I'm over-reacting myself, look around you at the many "adults" out there who are early evidence of the things to come... people who never actually grew up and took responsibility for themselves. Examples are not hard to find.
Respect, in general, should be restored as a key value in our culture and at the core of respect is fear of what might happen if you don't.
Now is their downfall, with its "no thought^Wtolerance" policy for hacking.
What, pray tell, do some kids in high school need ibooks for? While those of you who live in the US, are under 22 and have laptops might disagree, the rest of us realize that there really is a world out there outside of your parents' basement. This is not a flame. My point is that the kids with the laptops are not qualified to weight in on their necessity.
So back to my question - why do these kids have laptops? To IM each other, surf porn, and pirate music? I, and countless students before me, survived high school w/o a laptop. Heck, I had a typewriter, for those "really important papers". How is knowing how to create tables in MS Word a life skill that high schools should teach?
Can anyone provide a real, quantifiable benefit to kids having these $$$$ trinkets (at my expense)?
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
Dear Jesus,
I heard about the glorious creation of yours called humans that filed charges against high school students because these students were apparently smarter than the administrators.
Dear Jesus, I am from this part of the country many years ago and there was a lot of inbred people (against thigh will) there and none too bright. The smart ones moved away, so the people remained there were basically lower than the 50th percentile.
So now that they've heard the word "hacker", the under-average DA conspired with the underaverage school administrators to "send a message" and "teach them a lesson".
I suppose, dear sweet Jesus, that these people thought these boys were bright and would probably leave anyway. So now they'll go to one of the local teacher's colleges (like, um, Kutztown), and become products of their environment's mediocrity.
Dear Jesus, please send the cleansing AIDS and Cancer down on these school administrators and the DA so that they may know that the mediocre shouldn't be allowed to pass judgement over people who are brighter than them and kids with a better future than them. Please have it come quickly to them and make them go onto your heavenly bosom so that we on earth no longer have to deal with them, because clearly, Jesus, only you are smart enough to deal with them.
Make it come hard, fast, and make it hurt. And if you give them AIDS, make sure its in some ironic way that makes people laugh at them.
In thigh name we prey.
Ahhh, Men.
You have the implicit right not to have your travel patterns monitored when you rent a car, but a school has the right to watch what students do with PC's ???.
Then again it really shouldnt surprise me that incompetent people in the I.T. field wind up blaming everyone around them for their faults. In this case it seems they managed to get a sympathetic ear out of their local PD. Its sad that, you can have people harbor a child molestor and not be charged with so much as obstruction of justice, but here you have children being charged with unauthorized use of devices placed in their possesion.
IANAL but the fact that the schools handed the PC's to the students, said use them to do their work will probably knock down any charges concerning them. It will be really hard to prove unauthorized access when they were handed the quipment and given access to the network. Taping the password the back of the machine should also throw out any claims that the systems were meant to be secure.
This case shows what happens when legislators make law without understanding what they are trying to legislate or considering the consequences. If this application of the law is held valid it will allow any corporation, organization or group to take revenge on any employee or member that uses its computers and is disliked. To do so, all that would have to be done is change an employee manual or circulate a policy memo in a way that it would either not be read or misunderstood, and then call the police when someone keeps on doing what they had been doing.
It seems that the school tech administrators are gettnig more anal retentive every day. Compared to these guys, I lucked out. Banned from school computers for life for downloading PuTTy. (To get my homework nonetheless. I had misplaced the file on my webserver, and had to move it so that I could download it. That's it.)
Then I should get the death penalty.
At my college I was testing an advanced system recovery disk I was making, and part of it was a windows password recovery system. I demonstrated the disk to my prof, he was very interested, so I showed him how I can use it to recover passwords. I got the admin password and the school-wide bios password right in front him, he thought it was neat.
Lets be reasonable, what I did, definitely not good, but what these kids did, who cares? What school kid with access to computers has not done this?
I'm no lawyer, but I fail to see how they even managed to file these charges. This case is, in every sense of the word, entrapment. The children were forced to use these laptops and are now charged for misusing them. Legally speaking, the school has no grounds to stand on.
They're kids, they're expected to pull of stuff like this and in reality they're learning as a result. Probably more than some classes they're taking. Of course the district has underpaid IT staff and so needs to use the law instead of computer security to enforce its policies. The HS I went to was amazingly lenient in such matters, probably because it didn't want bad PR and partially because it understood that certain activities were inevitable and not too damaging. Potentially the IT staff knew they were overworked and that too many things were half-asses to hold people liable once they find the visible flaws in them. I think the only one who got suspended was for trying to change grades.
Imho, the worst punishment should be a suspension for a few days and a week at worst. Furthermore, the district has now got at least one student who is at least marginally intelligent and creative with computers. In other words, they have someone to double check any new security system for flaws or even to suggest security systems. You know, do things that will actually teach kids something. Sadly, schools don't care about children learning or being creative but only about standardized tests and sports it seems.
It is LIBERAL policies like yours where we try to "understand" the source of the criminal behavior that leads to so much of it. Rest assured that once we have put a few bad apples behind bars for this kind of shit, the rest of them will not be so quick to follow up.
The real problem here is that there isn't even a victim. The kids installed iChat AV, for crying out loud. Who was victimized by that? The PA legislature needs to revisit some of their decisions in what constitues criminal computer activity.
If anything there should have been some in-school repercussions, such as detention or sending a note to their parents. There was no reason to get law enforcement in on the action. It should be treated like any other school policy infraction.
We are seeing more and more of this sort of thing. Students do things like cheat, that are clearly against school policy. But now kids cheat on the computer. So instead of it being a school disciplinary action, schools make it out to be a criminal act, just because it took place on a computer. That's just absurd. When fake crimes (i.e. non-criminal school policy violations) take place on a computer, they don't become real crimes. And when real crimes are emulated in a game, they don't become real crimes.
All this inflation of an existing crime (copyright infringement, fraud, cheating, spying) just because it happens on a computer makes me sick. We already have laws that define fraud and the rest, we don't need another one that makes it "extra-illegal" just because it happens on a computer. It's the same thing with drug/alcohol use. We already have laws against speeding and driving recklessly. Why should the moving violation be any more severe if you were stoned/drunk/high at the time?
Well, I'm getting a little off topic, so I'll just shut up now.
// from a letter i've written to one of the parents
// there is NO NEED for self-blame in this matter. Summary: The kids violated a stupid rule. And so what.
// if you care about this case, why not send a nice note of support to one of the parents who has posted on the kids' website ?
Dear (parent)
I'm writing to you privately because I don't want to connect my name to this mess just yet.
I completely disagree with you that any of these kids should be punished at all.
Rules? the school rules are broken.
I am a 40 year old graduate of MIT and other schools, have owned successful business (and I'm working on starting another right now). I have not only studied the subject of kids, computers and learning, but I've been both a kid with a computer, and the administrator of several public computer labs subject to the worst sorts of hacks and viruses and troubles anyone could imagine.
The very, very worst the kids could have done is messed up a laptop to the point that it needed to just be erased and reloaded from scratch. This is no big deal. and anything short of that, not an issue at all. Your administrators are obviously not up to the challenges of running a laptop-equipped school district, and seem to be reacting to their injured egos rather than in response to anything actually "serious" about what happened.
I made it to MIT, a lifelong dream, BECAUSE I took things apart. When I arrived there, i discovered that EVERYTHING is taken apart, pretty much all the time. I met some of the smartest people I will ever know, typically with a soldering iron or laptop in hand, taking something apart, making something new. This is how we explore and learn. And yes, as the administrators will point out, the dumb boring kids will also hack around "protection" and look at porn and download music and, god forbid, chat with their friends. And so what! Those kids will always be dumb and boring and if it's not a computer they're wasting time with, they'll just be off in the bedroom with the XBox, or hanging around a 7-11.
This note doesn't have the thoughtful wording one might expect from a serious academic. But I am quite serious about my work and research. I am also so infuriated by the needless self-blame in this case that I can't stop to make the words pretty.
In summary, as a modestly successful graduate of a top school, as a business owner, and as a donor of far too much time and money to charities, I consider myself a responsible and useful member of society.
Also, I take things apart.
I'm not a felon and neither is your kid.
(PARENT) wrote:
I happen to be one of the parents involved in this whole idiotic mess....
As parents, we never said that our kids shouldn't be punished.....they broke school rules.. we agree on that point.
However, it amazes me that no one (in the Administration) is willing to accept responsibility for the mistakes that they have made. Don't they think that the public won't question the fact that there were only these 13 involved? Isn't it amazing that there were NO seniors involved, NO teacher's children involved, NO dministrator's children involved, NO school board member's children involved, NONE of the children of the" hierarchy" of the community (we all know that one exists!), it was only these 13 ! I think that these kids are the "sacrificial lambs" that the administration was willing to sacrifice to save their own pride.....
If someone gave me an ibook with the password on the back, I'd asume I'm supposed to use that password, why else would it be on the back?
I hope the students involved get awarded damages against there school for loss of education time due to the schools incompetance.
The summary is grossly misleading.
d =13361955
The kids actually did some pretty reprehensible things. I'd hate to see a bunch of ignorant people start trying to defend people who comitted real crimes:
http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=159572&ci
"They were punished multiple times and they still continued to do it."
So a rational adult would simply take the laptop away from them. Either play by the rules or take it away.
To me, this is the equivalent of sending your kid to reform school because he talked back one too many times. Its overreaction and really, its an admission of failure by the school authorities.
Everybody in Kutztown should be ashamed of themselves.
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
If you read the site set up to tell the students' side of the story, you'll find that it wasn't something like "Administrator Password: 50krexler" or whatever it is (or was). The password was in fact part of the school's address, which the administration had placed each machine.
Go read the story before you make assumptions...
Michael C. Hollinger
We can all sit here and justify tinkering, but the kids were actually doing more than just entering in the password - they were doing some more nefarious things that any sysadmin would want to see prosecuted.
So while you wank to your ivy league elitism, those of us who don't have the sparkle of ivy towers embedded into our brains actually read some articles that debunks the rosy picture you try to paint on these kids.
Let's face it, the kids are getting the book thrown at them because they made the school and the admins look stupid. End of story.
Some people are raising the arguement that hacking the ibook was similar to breaking and entering..
I would say it's like being told you can stay in someone's house, then being charged with a crime for re-arranging the furniture.
Is it impolite to stay at someone's house and rearrange their furniture? Yes, should you be charged with a crime? Uhh..
The other issue is that the authorities what and have control of computers in a way that just would not be acceptable in another context.
I mean you don't get a kid to sign a EULA and there are no laws against improper use of a pen and paper.
Law makers have been really sneaky violating civil rights with computing.
"The principal would probably be brought up on charges for loosing thousands of dollars worth of school equipment."
Granted their security was loose, but I didn't know you could be charged with a loose security policy in the school.
It's still not reasonable for someone to take equipment they know isn't theirs, in a building that isn't theirs. But we're talking about laptops with passwords provided, and the laptops were in the students home in the guise of being learning tools. If I didn't have the password to a computer, I'd find a harder time learning how to use it.
Saskboy's blog is good. 9 out of 10 dentists agree.
I can't find a copy of the Acceptable Use Policy anywhere. It's impossible to determine what laws these students have broken, if any, without it.
How can you be an
admin when you can't do it?
I'll work at a school!
So what did it do? I don't know where it's from, but now I'm curious :p
Send email from the afterlife! Write your e-will at Dead Man's Switch.
It's probably been answered before, but why didn't the school just take the laptops from the kids after the first offenses? If they were really that bothered by their actions, then why let them keep the school's hardware?
Goo goo g'joob.
If I were someone involved in the prosecution, and these kids have their futures destroyed because of this electronic equivalent of TPing a house, I'd sleep with one eye open.
People who have had their lives unjustifiably ruined can snap pretty easily, and probably won't have any compunction killing. Karma can be a bitch.
Please, show me the law where this is illegal.. and none of that grey area "destruction of school property" BS - that doesn't count and won't hold up in courts.
We have secretly replaced these Slashdot mods' sense of humor with a rusty nail. Let's see if they notice!!
How about retaliating with a heavy-handed reply?
I would suggest bringing additional attention to the matter by having the students threaten to renounce their US citizenship, and openly, ask via the media, for asylum in another country.
I don't understand why the school wants to ruin these kids lives. If they are convicted of third degree felonies it will be like shackling them for life. From then on they will have to check that little box "Have you ever been convicted of a felony?" Christ these are high school students cut them a break! This country has all sorts of laws for different things with some very harsh punishments. Most of the time though those punishments are never carried out, because people normally realize it's better to cut people a break and let the accused be a contributing member of society. What are these kids going to become if they are convicted of third degree felonies? I personally think that there is better than a good chance that they will start acting out because of it. Maybe start getting into more serious trouble. Look at it from an example, people get speeding tickets all the time and sometime those tickets are for going 15 or 20 miles over the legal limit. I don't know about all states, but for at least some police officers could take you to jail for that. Do they do that normally? Answer, no. They may write you an expensive ticket, but they realize that people make mistakes and it's not worth it to prosecute them to the full extent of the law. Just because the school can fuck up these kids doesn't mean they should. Give them community service, at least then they are taking responsibility and contributing to the community all at the same time. I think the school is on a power trip of retribution for their own flawed policies. I just hope that this whole thing comes back to bite the people in charge at the school in their ass.
Go Illini!!!
You, apparently do not.
The kids were not just entering in the password they found on the bottom of the laptop. They did some more serious thinga.
Please, this isn't just a case of tinkering. Its a case of wilfully comitting crimes.
...if the school is going to press felony charges against kids for playing with technology that they gave to the kids (with taxpayer money) then they need to realize this kind of stuff is going to happen.
What's next? Pressing charges against kids for writing in text books? Sueing kids for looking at the answers to math problems in the back of the book?
School officials need to "grow up" and realize that kids will be kids. Deal with it and *teach* them the errors of their ways (if even that) within the walls of the school. Not the court room or judicial system.
Sheesh...
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." - Shepard Book Quoting Malcolm Reynolds
Are these kids being tried as minors?
If so, do they still have to disclose any felony convictions on *adult* job applications?
... why did this school give these laptops back to these kids after they had shown a willingness to use them for unauthorized purposes? Have pencils and paper really become so obsolete that the school can no longer fall back on them when the laptop thing simply fails?
If anything, the school is directly responsible for this simply because they did not revoke the students' privileges to use these machines. How could they possibly not know they would do this again after the first or second time it happened?
8==8 Bones 8==8
"password"?
Send email from the afterlife! Write your e-will at Dead Man's Switch.
"When the school ran out of punishments available to them, they forwarded the incident to the local police"
They didn't. They should have taken away the laptop after the 2nd incident.
But in Kuztown, the "adults" really were angry at the kids because they challenged their authority. This punishment is more about adult ego and speaks volumes about the inability of the Kutztown administration to deal with children.
I said it earlier... people in Kutztown should be ashamed of their administrators.
These kids were not just playing around with the admin account. They were actually ACTIVELY TRYING TO COMPRIMISE SYSTEMS AND STEAL MORE PASSWORDS!!
d =13361975
http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=159572&ci
The kids are not victims. They were doing things that any reasonable sysadmin would consider illegal.
This is exactly why school boards and prosecutors are generally elected officials in the U.S. Prosecutors who do draconian things, and school boards who do stupid things, have this funny way of getting booted during the next election. The system *eventually* works, and until then, hopefully some judge will laugh these charges out of court.
It's too bad the parent who set up that webpage doesn't allow _real_ public comments. He's controlling the information much like the professional media. An open forum would have been much more insightful (especially if unmoderated) as there would be actual comments by those who support the school board.
I don't know why people keep bring up the "tape". This has already been argued to death. (For example, leaving keys to your home in the lock does not give you right to invade that home.) It doesn't matter where the passwords were located, they could have been taped to the IT admin's own desk and if so, the parents would still be complaining about how unfair it is that the passwords are out in the "open" as any student could just walk into their office. (Much like Ferris Bueller stealing those passwords from the Principals' Office. Wasn't it taped to the Secretary's desk? PENCIL.) =]
Simply put, they violated school policy.
In this day and age of terrified school boards and teachers who aren't allowed to do _anything_ to control students, they are obligated to follow proper policies and procedures to resolve these matters.
Then, it's left up to the justice system to make a final decision.
Sending hate mail to the police won't solve anything. They're obligated to respond to complaints/reports and follow their own policies and procedures. Leave them alone, they're just doing their job.
I have a question though. Even with an out-pour of flame mail to the police department, could anyone there really make the decision to "make it all disappear?" I mean, come on. (Even if it was possible, would you want a legal system that makes charges disappear just because some people are irrationally upset?)
I can't believe no one has brought up The Right To Read. I know people like to dismiss RMS as a crank, but here we are -- what seemed like paranoia becomes more true every day.
It is really a damn shame that people do not have the integrity to tell authority when there is an apparent problem which may impact others or security. Instead of doing the right thing, the students decided to break the law. They have no defensible position. This society really is beneath contempt. Posts stating that it is the systems fault for poor individual (or group) decisions makes me emphasize to my own child how words like integrity, morality, humility, and responsibility are *not* just words in a dictionary. They are important on a personal level as well as in everyday choices which may come up. These students and their parents need to grow up. Obviously they have learned nothing in life but how to be a victim. "It is the systems fault, not ours. They should fix the system!" Bullshit.
I've been discussing this elsewhere (yeah, Slash is about a week behind), and the general consensus was that if you can't be shot while committing it, it shouldn't be a felony. This is Just Plain Wrong.
Moderate drunk! It's more fun that way!
You know why Adam and Eve were driven out of the garden, right? They ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
The back story was "don't get too curious of God will punish you." Just do what the priests tell you. By interesting coincidence this appears in a book written by priests.
Authority has always arbitrarily controlled information and rewarded ignorant compliance while punishing initiative. Real life is administratively inconvenient. That's why petty abuses of authority such as this need to be met with a shitstorm of scathing publicity. The lifeless drones who repress schoolkids need a good thumb in the eye once in a while to keep them in their place.
Any yeah, maybe the kids should have a reprimand lodged in their Permanent Records That Will Determine the Future Course of Their Lives. But I doubt if the severity of their wrongdoing was anywhere near even that level. But when you get bizarre decisions like this, it shows a rot that has started at the top: an organization that lodges ANY criminal charges for behavior like this needs to be gutted from the Supervisor down and all of those involved should never be allowed to come near kids again.
Incidentally, I have kids in high school and know from direct experience that the idiocy of administrators is widespread. Parents and the wider community should never accept universal excuses such as "we had to do it because otherwise we'd be sued" or "because otherwise pedophiles might stalk our children." When basic fairness and proportion are lost, careers should be on the line. They're paid as much as judges, let's see some judgment.
Get online and see how much a high-school principal earns these days, and how many administrators there are in a school district relative to the number of teachers. You'll cut the bastards a lot less slack after that.
Get your teeth into a small slice: the cake of liberty
Somebody remind me... Exactly *why* is it we demand the presence of computers in public schools?
Oh, yeah. It's because school boards don't know what they are doing. The only reason you need computers in schools before college is to teach programming. All other uses just lead to distraction.
"Lawyers are for sucks."
- Doug McKenzie
"How many times have you been completely and utterly insulted by children who know there's nothing you can do about it. "
I think you're presented a false set of choice here. The choice isn't "accept lack of respect" or "send them to jail"
Generally, if the administration is in a position where it feels that it can't control the children properly, it's the adults fault. Lets face it; Kutztown isn't exactly "The Blackboard Jungle". These are basically middle class kids who will do either the right thing or wrong thing depending on the situation. Honestly, if you taped the admin password to a laptop you loaned me, I might use it.
Ineffective leadership and ineffective parenting usually happens when parents/leaders lead by refusing to have small consequences and as a result are forced to have large consequences when things finally become unmanageable.
This is a perfect case. When it was discovered the kids had compromised the laptops as a result of the password written on top, the administrators might have (a) Punished the children in a small way... perhaps detention...perhaps removal from all extracuricular activities... parents should have been notified (b) the administration should have reimaged the laptops and changed all the passwords. (c) Warn the children that next time, they would have their laptops taken away and that their parents would be liable for the cost of reimaging all the laptops once again. Put all this in writing and have the parents of the children acknowledge this.
And here's really the key... you have to follow through on every "threat". That is, when it was discovered they'd hacked the laptops again, take their laptops away and send a bill for the cost of reimaging to the parents.
I'm telling you, these administrators almost sound like they heard the phrase "computer hacker" and it frightened them so much they felt they had to teach the kids a lesson.
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
This just goes to show you - if the public school system in America really wanted to teach kids to learn, they'd place emphasis on having them learn to think critically for themselves, (a very important concept which seems to be sorely lacking today) rather than trying to churn out students who learn by rote and repetition (I.E. they are churning out cogs for our society/the corporate machine). Learning to think critically for yourself is exactly what many, many schools in America strive to prevent and punish at every opportunity. It seems like these kids are being punished severely for "thinking outside of the box" and for exploring other ways to use their machines - For not being good little citizens and shutting their minds off (maybe they looked at some porn too, but c'mon, what would you expect from teenagers being sent totally mixed messages) Now, I have no idea what these 13 kids actually did that was so bad - but regardless I have a huge problem with technologically illiterate school administrators, small town media, and cops/prosecutors charging high school students with a felony when they (in most cases) truly don't even understand the technology and the terminology around it. I think they are being punished mainly for not conforming and for making the school look stupid. A couple of other posts on here mentioned phrases like "our increasingly vengeance based culture" - and another mentioned that "in American schools the attitude is one of suspicion and enforcement rather than learning" (a problem all across our post 9/11 culture) I think both of these posts are dead on accurate characterizations. If they were changing grades or something then that's a different issue, but that should be handled within the school and even that doesn't warrant charges (especially not felony). If the school was really on the ball and interested in enriching their students maybe they'd give these kids who they've seen are testing their boundaries something fun and truly challenging to do on their computers. (I've made a lot of generalizations in this post, obviously not everything is black and white - I am mainly referring to High Schools and though I generalize, obviously there are the rare exceptions like special teachers or progressive schools, or schools who have IT staff who know how to implement proper security - I guess my point is that this is symptomatic of a lot of our schools these days)
Shouldn't society save felony punishment for violent crimes? These kids just changed the arrangement of some digital bits in a very small subset of our electronic infrastructure. Where is the finanical damange even? I teach my childern to question authority, and remember that the government only serves at the pleasure of the people. This case could end up in the Supreme Court.
Software freedom...I love it!
Forgive me for a moment, this post may seem slightly off topic but I think that what we are seeing is the symptom of a larger problem and that is what I want to address in this post. So, flame away if you want.
Kids, by their very nature are curious and, a bit rebelious. That hasn't changed in generations, kids have always been tempted by things that they know they should not do and kids have always been known to defy authority. I know I did, and I'll bet you did too!
I was very fortunate to have had several teachers who were actually able to harness my curiosity and my desire to "push the boundaries." To this day, I think they were the best teachers I had.
I also had the other kind of teacher; I remember specifically one English teacher who told us to read a specfic chapter. I got in trouble for reading beyond the chapter! I loved reading and simply got caught up in the story. Why he got upset is still beyond me.
Many teachers no longer teach kids, they teach cirruclium. They expect kids to march in lock-step to their plans. Kids going though this feel like they are prisoners and that their teachers are little more than glorified babysitters! They get bored, they don't understand why they are being limited and, they naturally fight this by defying the silly rules established by the people in authority. In short, the kids will be kids (just like they always have been).
Yeah, the kids hacked the computers and used them for things that maybe they shouldn't have. I have to say that the administrators of the school should have expected this.
It seems to me there were probably a number of other things that could have been done - including a policy of "if you hack this, we will take it away from you and you will fail the class". The way that it has happend smells like the administration has chosen, intentionally, to make examples out of these kids. I suspect that this was done to send a message to future students "Don't mess with us" - but this kind of thing against kids seldom works and can easily backfire (especially if nothing comes of the charges).
I feel for the kids, I really do. Not because they hacked the computers but because the administration and staff of the school have obviously made some poor choices along the way. This problem is a symptom of something wrong much deeper in the system. The teachers should realize they are teaching kids who are naturally curious, naturally push the limits, and naturally defy authority. If these kids were challenged, rather than restricted, they would learn a hell of a lot more.
Teachers, please go back to teaching kids, not cirriculum!
The powers that be are not taking responsibility for their actions, yet somehow they feel the students should.
So what can be learned?
a) There's a double standard
b) It's ok if the authority figure doesn't take responsibility for their actions.
It explains a lot about public schools in the U.S., doesn't it?
The worst part is no one would beleive it! the IT guys waqived their MCSEs in our face and essentialy told us to get fucked...so my buddy waited till obne of the lead it guys happened to be in the room durring an electronics/circut programming class and asked the teacher if he could demo the "hack" on the computer connected to the 6 foot projection screen for the IT guys ammusement...he did it, the IT guys jaw dropped...and the teacher stepped in and DEMANDED it be fixed...and that afternoon...no more hole...
accedent? HELL NO, IT IS CALLED ENTRAPMENT!!!
I'm very disappointed by Slashdot users.
In the article, the parents say that the school board is prosecuting because their IT staff were "outsmarted the district's technology workers."
Where do people get these ideas? No one was "outsmarted". Even the most brilliant IT administrator can't protect every piece of equipment they're responsible for. And with next generation security applications come next generation hacking tools for script kiddies such as the 13.
I'd expect 99% of the world to believe this stupidity, but many Slashdot posters seem to think it was IT administrator stupidity leading to this problem, and that they were "outsmarted" by kids.
Or maybe it's just pure ego. "I've never been outsmarted by anyone... I'm a genious and can never be fooled like those IT Admins were." Even though no one was "fooled."
We ought to get more smarter in securing our interests.
Java Oracle Linux Enthusiast
Oh, how long can trusty Cadet Stimpy hold out? How can he possibly resist the diabolical urge to push the button that could erase his very existence? Will his tortured mind give in to its uncontrollable desires?
Can he resist the temptation to push the button that, even now, beckons him even closer? Will he succumb to the maddening urge to eradicate history? At the MERE...PUSH...of a SINGLE...BUTTON! The beeyootiful SHINY button! The jolly CANDY-LIKE button! Will he hold out, folks? CAN he hold out?
"I might have made a tactical error in not going to a physician for 20 years." -- Warren Zevon
If the school can't get the security setup well on these laptops they should be the ones getting charged. Where I live if I have a pool in the backyard and don't take measures to keep kids out, then some kids sneaks in and drowns in it I get charged because I created an attractive nuisance. Maybe we could give kids books (the last time I checked you couldn't hack the teachers edition from the students volume) until we can give the kids technology that is truly secured.
I'm not sure what the legislation in the U.S. is with regards to unauthorised use of computers, but here in the U.K. the legislation is pretty watertight.
:)
1 8_en_2.htm#mdiv1
Under section 1 of the Computers Misuse Act 1990, if you gain access to a machine/program/data that you're not authorised to have access to, you can be imprisoned for 6 months or get hit with a class 5 fine. You're not liable if you didn't know that your access was unauthorised, which is a nice little safety net if your boss decides to revoke your network access but forgets to tell you.
Under section 3, if you change anything after getting access that penalty becomes a five year prison sentence, but again you have to know that you weren't supposed to be doing it.
In this case, It's pretty obvious that the kids knew that they weren't supposed to be messing around with the data, so why should the law apply any less to them than it would someone hacking into police databases? Laws are only worthwhile if they apply to everyone evenly, and if they don't they may as well not exist.
Again, I'm not sure what the U.S. legislation is with regards to this, but if anyone wishes to know what the legislation is over here, you can find the text of the Computers Misuse Act on the following link.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1990/Ukpga_199000
It's really easy to get into... and doesn't require an administrator password to give you unlimited access...
Many comments focus on the harshness of punisment, and the password being taped there etc.
For me the main question is the following: Why is it appearent that the kids did misuse the laptops? I have a laptop, and I regularly install software and check that noone monitors my activity etc. Of course if there was a contract signed detailing what can or cannot be done... But we have not seen that, and even if there was one, I am doubtful that the legal language was legible to the kids and we can expect them to follow it the same way as, say, an employee would.
I would let the owners do whatever they want with their laptop. If, as a consequence they break it or cannot login to the test administering server they will face the academic consequences. Just like not bringing pen to school or losing their textbooks.
Matyas
Friend of mine expelled for having a Scout pocketknife on campus in a bag in his locker with his Scout uniform because he was heading to a troop fundraiser immediately after school.
Felony charges to a classmate over used 12ga shotgun shells in the back of his truck that was parked off-campus across the street.
This was in 1991. The Schools-As-A-Police-State is nothing new, only thing different is that now computers are involved as well.
I was just asking myself why the school didn't demand that the offending students return the laptops - now I know why. This makes school adminstration even dumber than I suspected. It sounds to me like the administration needs some serious retraining in the area of common sense.
"Acceptance of this laptop may expose your child to FELONY charges"
You left off the "if they break the law with it" part. And that applies to any computer and any person.
RTFA:
Now that's not the only thing that the kids are accused of doing, they also turned off the monitoring software (Apple Remote Desktop?) and even used it to monitor the admins. In addition, they're accused of using hacking tools to find the new admin password when it was changed from the password that was taped on the back of the machines.
These "children" knew exactly what they were doing and should have known better than to fuck around with computers that were probably paid for with tax dollars.
I was in a similar predicament in high school: I was accused of "hacking" a computer by trying the default supervisor password of a particular system, and it worked. A classmate saw me and tried it too (rofl). Naturally, he was caught and spilled the beans on me. I was taken straight to the principal who went apeshit, and started saying crap like I would be given an automatic 'F' for the class and would be prevented from taking any more computer classes for the rest of my high school years, not to mention the "hacking" charge. In my case however, my teachers (who loved me of course hehe, teachers pet) got together and talked some sense into the principal. All I ended up receiving was three "licks" (yes, corporal punishment lmao.. living in the south is a hoot) and told not to do it again. I knew damn well what I was doing, and I deserved to be punished, but not to those extremes. I got off lucky, but these kids didn't. Oh well, that's how it goes.
BTW, the teachers never changed that default password for the rest of my high school years. *evil grin*
It gets worse! At my school, they use easily hackable windows and don't have an admin password!
Microsoft is like...no, it's much worse.
There is a simple way to fix this problem. If you don't want them to use the laptop at home, don't let them take it home.
Exactly.
"Listen up, kids. You will be given a laptop to use on school premises only. The laptops will be handed to you in Homeroom and must be turned in every day at the end of the last period of classes. If you go off campus for lunch, you must either turn your laptop in for safekeeping at the office or keep it securely locked away in your locker.
"Abuse of your laptop will be grounds for losing laptop privileges. You will then have to do your school work that requires use of your laptop in the computer lab up until the end of the year. Abuse of your laptop entails downloading porn, music, non-authorized software, or vandalizing your laptop or the laptops of others. Circumvention of the security systems used on campus (Dan's Guardian, Deep Freeze, etc.) will be grounds for losing laptop privileges.
"Due to security concerns, bringing your own laptop or handheld computer to school is expressly forbidden. Those violating these rules will have their laptop or handheld confiscated and their parents or guardians notified about how to pick up the confiscated property.
"If you break your laptop and it is determined the breakage is accidental or the result of mechanical breakdown or some other intrinsic failure, you will receive a working laptop in exchange for the disabled laptop. If the breakage is determined to be caused by negligence or vandalism, you will lose your laptop privileges.
"With privileges such as these come responsibilities. Don't come crying to us if you break the rules and find yourself without your school-issued laptop, because you knew the rules in the first place. To assure us that you do know the rules, you will be given a paper copy of the rules with a form to fill out. Those of you who need assistance with reading the rules or filling out the form will receive the assistance. Only when we are sure you completely understand these rules will we issue you your laptop."
There. problem solved. Next earth-shaking issue, please...
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
Kutztown hackers sing this song, doo dah, doo dah;
Using admin password's wrong, oh doo dah day!
Tempting stickies are abused, doo dah, doo dah;
But arrests make me confused, oh doo dah day!
Going to hack all night, going to hack all day;
Though I don't think there's a crime, I'll bet on the cops all the way!
Dear AC, do people call you "fucktard" and "asshat" to your face?
Do you wonder if its an insult?
And if you are somewhere you "shouldn't" for 7 years it's called "adverse possession" and you then own the place.
i on
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22adverse+possess
You want to wake up, son. Lets put this in context, shall we? We are talking about a felony, that is entering children into the criminal justice system because the school admins didn't have clue one about how to secure their own systems from... children. The mini emporers in academia need a taste of their own medicine. Honestly speaking, a previous poster pointed out that taping the password to the backs of the computers was tantamount to incitement and solicitation of a minor. I wouldn't just use it as a threat though, I'd go afer the little hitlers until every man jack of them had spent a few months trying out the local prison facilites. Such irresponsible and knee jerk reactionists should under no circumstances be educating children.
Don't get me wrong, I know some kids are wretched creatures that shouldn't be in general education, but in this case I think an example does need to be made. Of the so called teachers.
What he can't kill, he has sex on. Trent.
Click this link. Now set Reason Modifier for Redundant to +6. Click on Save. Voila -- all Redundant comments are at +5 now, at least for you.
Man is a slave because freedom is difficult, whereas slavery is easy.
If I understand correctly these kids were required to accept the laptops. And they were required to accept the license. And then, the admin password was supplied to them.
If I were the defense team I would be arguing entrapment. It seems to me that the students were put in a situation by the authorities where they were being put in a position to commit a crime. In fact, it seems fair to say that since the password was supplied with the laptop there was no way for the students to know that using it was banned.
It's the same reason cops cant go out and actively sell drugs and arrest people. They cannot initiate the illegal activity. They cannot coerce you to do0 something you would not normally do. If I go to the hooker, I can be arrested. If she comes to me, then no. I think. IANAL.
So, if that principle applies, then yes, stealing the password from the admins desk, file-o-fax, or safety deposit box would be illegal. Reading it from the label on the machine? Sounds to me like a set up.
So, a list of things the admin did wrong that sound actionable...
1)Entrapment
2)Endangerment of a minor by supplying unsecured access to pornography by way of an unregul;ated internet connection.
3)Entering into a contract with a minor.
4)Violation of the DMCA by circumveting digital secrity vis a vis writing the secret admin password on the machine.
I am a professional admin and would happily testify to the deficient nature and incompetent handling of the administrative duties on the part of the school district.
---Gorehog
As a parent, what bothers me is that the administration apparently made no attempt to contact the parents. This past year, my oldest was part of group of 3rd graders who were acting up on the playground during recess. They were threated with suspension if their behavoirs did not imporve as a last resort. No time during the process of being called into the principle's office (3 or 4 times) were my wife and I contacted.
I thought teaching and parenting were a partnership? Screw that. Teachers are underpaid, administrators are over paid. And parents are treated as children. That is the message sent out and the kids see this.
Had this been my kid and the school contacted me after the first inccident, the problem would have been solved to the benefit of child and the school district.
I would press to have the teachers arrested for abetting a felony, and corrupting a minor. I would sue the school district for running a criminal enterprise to ennable students to potentially pirate software. I would use the RICO laws for treble damages and attach all of their personal property. Then I would lock up the school district in civil litigation and sue them into bankruptcy.
Scorched earth policy, take no prisoners, leave no survivors. Kill them fucking all.
After being repeatedly counseled, reprimanded and sanctioned, these student continued to abuse the computer system until the only option left was the court. Luckily for the students, they will be offered a "good behavoir" deal from the court which will insure they have no record on file.
So...don't come wailing on this board about "Police State", Facism, Stupid SKOOL Admins" and such: these kids were given every break. Face it: these students CHOSE to push the Administration into seeking the Court's help - not the other way around. Now...they are going to pay for thier CHOICES. It's called GROWING UP"!
Of course, the Admins could have taken away thier laptops, but does that neccessarily mean that the pens and pencils of every student caught writing on school property should also be confiscated? Laptops are becomming a part of life - part of education: just like pen and paper. Kids need them. Kids need to learn to deal with them.
Unfortunately, there are kids like these 13 who just won't listen to reason - and believe me - reason was applied. No School Admin or Principal worth his job ever wants an Student issue taken to court for it means that they have failed - and now it is made public. Unfortunately, this sometimes happens.
Now, back in the Good Ole' days, these little weenies would have been given a paddeling upside the arse after the first time they refused to listen to reason. (Hey...not all kids listen to reason and these punks are prime examples.) Had this been done in this case, those kids probably wouldn't be in court now - wasting the time, money and effort of thier parents, school and community on thier unreasonable Hor$eshit.
Over at Tech Support Comedy we call people "starfish" who don't know what they are doing and for a long time they've been called "lusers" by others. These are the people making IT policy in schools these days and have been since time out of mind.
These are "tail wags the dog" imbeciles who were the other half of Apple scam to get into civilian homes through the children by putting used and wholly inadequate Apples in the schools. These are the idiots who thought that typing teachers should teach BASIC on Commodore PETs, the same dimbulbs who gave gifted classes LOGO instead of serious languages like C.
These are the sort of people still to this day deciding IT policy in the local schools and often enough, in the towns of those schools. People without proper education, background, aptitude, wisdom, or intelligence. Hiring a Must Call Someone Else (MCSE) with three years experience fixing neighbors' computers is no improvement either, and that often enough is as far towards proper people as they go. Loony.
The schools have 60s sci-fi television and AOL newbie levels of knowledge about basic data processing, elementary PC workings, and an understanding of pop media topics like viruses and spyware as shallow as a plate of spaghetti two seconds after it gets in front of Kirstie Ally. the average twelve year old knows a thousand times more than his forty-eight year-old teacher.
Why? Well, other than the fact that we only really pay lip service to the idea of proper education of children in the US as well shown by the schools spending more resources on fighting the No Child Left Behind Act than they actually do on teaching the children, it has long been known that the majority of public school teachers come from the bottom quartile of the colleges and universities. IOW, those who couldn't excel teach. Those who could get private sector jobs.
It's clearly not a matter of salary either when teachers do the bulk of their job for only nine months of the year and have starting salaries in excess of telecommunications technicians with fifteen years of experience who actually have bonafide standards and goals to stick to.
Politics rules the teaching world, always has, and will until we demand higher college scores from would-be teachers, force total financial divestiture and separation of the teachers' unions from leftist political groups who have dominated them for decades, and start taking serious stock of what kids already know versus what they don't and need to and start teaching based on that and not politics of the day.
Seriously, touchy-feely political claptrap and pop media nonsense have farked up the US schools to the point they are next to useless as educational vehicles, parents more and more know it, and the country's social landscape makes it glaringly obvious. The kids don't need twenty bazillion courses on AIDS, the environment, and tolerance, they need to frigging understand 2+2, what the capital of their own state is, and how to spell their own last name correctly. Since the schools would rather not bother with those things and instead focus on indoctrination, I'm not surprised they'd leave the passes on the PCs and then punish the kids for using them. Why not just leave some matches and magnesium strips out in front of them in science class while the teacher goes for a half-hour smoke break in the middle of class? (Actually, this happened when I was in school in my class and that was 1983 or so.)
If my grammar and spelling are off, I am [distracted/tired/careless] (take your pick)
Truth is that the techs in these situations are the only ones who will actually know what is going on; they will also drive the fear of their PHBs.
The techs are idiots btw... that notwithstanding; there is a penchant in the k12 environment to trusting the children (irrationally). I consult for a school district and it is incredibly funny how naive the teachers and administration are.
Example:
The district wanted to get this new "automated" lunch payment/inventory system (i was not against it, just the chosen implementation). They used the Pin pad authentication and promoted it with "bullys will no longer steal your child's lunch money!", when I saw this I said, "Kid give me your PIN number!"
Stupidity does more damage in the world than malice...
Any corporate bank IT people that pulled this level of stupidity would be lucky to stay out of jail.
They'd get let go, and investigated for risking the bank's data security...
Accountability is fine, but why is it always one way?
I am accountable for my actions, but rarely do I ever see one of the privledged few held accountable. Mostly they are called visionaries after bilking their stock holders.
Accountability has to come from the TOP DOWN!
Accountability from the bottom up, is not accountability. It is just one more lie foisted on all the little batteries that keep the big machine running.....
Why the fuck would these kids respect any authority when our country's leaders stand in front of us and dispense complete fabrications are not held accountable. When theses same leaders mis-manage our tax funds they are given awards for their humanitarian efforts.
These children are our future and they are being taught that it is ok for the president to lie, it is ok for a CEO to bilk his stock holders (remember when stocks paid dividends?), it is ok for a government official to hire his brother in law for a lucretive public contract, yet they themselves are not allowed to explore the capabilities of an electronic device? Gee I wonder why they have no respect?
Remember it comes from the TOP DOWN, not the bottom up. From the bottom up it is only a caste system in disguise.
Bring back Western Justice! Public Stoneing! Stocks! would be a good place to start. http://www.villagenet.co.uk/reference/stocks.html
Then you will see some respect.
Rick B.
The way these things tend to work is that if you annull someones user-priviledges on a fairly open network - as those on college or Uni campuses tend to be, the guy you're trying to punish ends up duping someone else into allowing them to use their account.
In a corperate environment, that's not a problem because someone who engages in that kind of activity gets a written warning and/or the sack. In a college tho', conditions are different and you can't apply the same ruleset.
Might the school have also been in the wrong. Keystroke logging was recently made illegal in the United States. Might this monitoring software be illegal?
with kids.
You will lose. Any sane parent knows this. The educators, with their specialized training totally should know this. As a father I know this.
The policy should reflect the reality of computing today; namely, that any access control methods can and will be circumvented by those willing to do so. Period, end of story. There is very little the school could do to prevent this kind of thing, so why bother?
Either the kids play ball, or they don't get their own computer. Have a lab room setup for those not willing to agree to the terms of use and those that think they are willing, but end up on the wrong side of the rules.
Charging these kids with a felony crime is just wrong. It's going to affect their future far more than it helps the school keep control. I've a feeling this school is one of these zero tolerance, power tripping schools that does more actual harm than good.
So, they could have just taken the computers, booted the kids, put them on an alternative learning track, etc.... But, continuing to escalate the issue the way they did invited trouble, was counter productive, and could easily be considered rather draconian. --> "Lets make examples of a few of them to keep the others in line". Yeah, like I want my teen going to a school like that.
In the schools defense, the law has taken away a lot of their power these days. The school staff is sharply limited in what they can actually do without going to the courts. (Which makes a keen understanding of the whole power struggle thing all the more important!) When I went to HS, in the 80's, principles could still actually make kids *do* things. Breaking up fights, for example, often meant the principle stepping in there, grabbing some kids, and sorting things out. He was never in the office, walked around the school and kept order.
Things are far different today where even touching kids can get educators in trouble.
There is a fine line being crossed with the whole kids rights thing. In terms of things like expression, we should be yielding to the kids. However, in terms of behavior, we should let the schools do a bit more than they currently are, if we are to avoid the courts for teen struggles.
Also, where the fuck are the parents in this whole thing? If this were my kid, I would quite honestly start working that school and legal system over until the problem was corrected. I'm all for kids towing the line, but it's a two way street. If the school creates an environment for failure, (which they clearly have), the punishment for that failure needs to serve some greater end. (Which it clearly doesn't.)
This whole mess is a crock. Anyone, who has parented teens, who possesses just a bit of common sense would have been able to defuse this issue and move on. My gut says this whole small town is fucked up.
Blogging because I can...
Half the advantage of giving kids laptops instead of books is that when they tinker and break the software on the laptop it's no big deal. You re-ghost it. It costs 10 minutes of admin time (mostly listening to the scared student cry) and a half hour of the laptop being idle.
Instead we use them to keep more draconian rules on kids. Don't let them learn, tinker, or experiment. This is school for heavens sake!
at the core of respect is fear of what might happen if you don't.
No, at the core of respect is understanding and appreciation. You cannot get respect from fear. Fear is fear, not respect. Say it ten or twenty times until it sinks in.
And now, the hardest lesson: respect begets respect. Respect the kids and they will respect you. Understand them and appreciate them for what they are, and try to explain to them why they should do one thing instead of another.
It's not about control, it's about mutual respect and understanding. If your kid respects you, they won't want to break the rules. If your kid's just afraid of you, they'll be afraid to break the rules, if they think you'll find out -- and you won't always be there.
The only time it makes sense to just slap them with a huge punishment is when you've actually given up on them as human beings. When you really believe they will never be a civil person unless someone's always there to hit them, or yell at them, or punish them.
And by the way, if you're a parent, I suggest you read the manual. I read it, my parents read it, and we all agree that this guy knows what he's talking about. It is possible to raise kids without hitting them, hardly ever raising your voice, and actually gaining their respect, whether you're a parent, educator, or mentor, and if you do it right, you create the kind of person who really could be a future leader of the world.
Because if you have your way, the future leader of the world will have been so abused that the only way he knows to lead is with fear. That's called a dictator.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
p://www.cutusabreak.org/ is the site that tells the students side of the story - this site was put up by one of the kids' Uncles.
you dont do drugs in college...
At least where I went to high school, "asking what the password is" would be considered a "hacking tool" by the administration if they wanted to make life difficult for you
If it doesn't say what the "hacking tool" in question is, I'm skeptical.
Kutztown has one of the highest STD rates in the country.
I thought a Hack was a reporter that didn't do any research. Maybe that explains why they've latched onto the words "Hack" and "Hacker" so much.
...gotta take a wizz on this fence over here.
.. what do they get? 15 or only 10 years on the electric chair? Or maybe the judge lets them of the hook and they get away with a good caneing. Like 200 strikes or so.
*remebers Images of a swiss pre-teen boy cuffed in chains brought before a US judge because dared help his little sister use the toilett without closing the curtains*
Mod me down if you wish - but admit I have a point.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
this whole concept of "but how are we going to show the kids who's boss if we can't hit them" dross makes me sick. My father got the crap kicked out of him by his father every weekend (my grandfather traveled during the week). my father didn't respect his father at all...
what we need is not artificial "respect" garnered from fear of retribution, what we need is parents who understand honor. how much of a man does it take to hit someone weaker? how much of a man does it take to have patience and show the other person a better way?
i don't swear otfen. not because my parents forbade me from swearing, which they didn't, but because they told me constantly that I sounded like a fool when i did. ever watch the play Cyrano de Bergerac? some guy makes a crack at how big cyrano's nose is, and cyrano rips him a new one. not by cursing and saying he'll kick the dood's a$$, but by making him look the fool by using words he can't understand. my parents took me to see that play, and told me that if i felt like swearing, think about that scene and figure ou a better way of saying it.
in short, you don't have to have a totalitarian control over your children in order to teach them. you just have to teach them in a way that they understand.
Fear breeds nothing but hatred.
(my parents were in no way perfect, but they did do somethings right, and i plan on emulating those things and improving the others when it's my turn...)
Rise up in the cafeteria and STAB them with your plastic forks!
Who signed this? The kids or the parents.. The kids are under 18, and cant enter into a legal agreement like this.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
What actions did they take to make this a felony?! At worst it seems like perhaps a minor contract violation. What if you use a school book (paper sort) in a manner unapproved of by the school. Like reading a porno magazine with it as a screen, is this 'misuse' a felony?
It's time for you to develop a sense of scale, of proportion. Do you really not understand what a felony is?
Or maybe I should ask: "Why do you wish these kids harm?"
I call bullshit.
One; they were not even allowed to return the damn things.
Two; Parents? Phone call? Administration? No, let's just hit'em with a felony charge, rather than taking the toys away and calling Mommy and Daddy.
Three; I'm just sick enough of disrespectful adults who assume that because they've managed to be blessed with the great gift of being born into the earlier bastion of greatness and civilization that was the {insert decade here} they have the right to treat children as pets or chattel, that I'm ready to support euthanasia as a means of keeping them in line.
I have a great idea; let's hit your kids with a trumped up felony charge. You've already said they have a problem with lying. We should be able to come up with something, now shouldn't we!
And remember children, the core of respect is FEAR . Funny, I always thought the core of respect was admiration and a desire to emulate the one respected. Is the desire to emulate this kind of fear mongering desireable? Remember that, and all of you under 18's who read Slashdot remember, crime is wrong, but so is unjust punishment. "Making an example" is a gross miscarriage of justice; it's dramatically overdoing the punishment in the hopes that it will reduce the chances of others committing the same crime. As I recall, there is no mention in the constitution of making examples.
Monitoring communications, telephone voice, computer data or video, is really just a small step away from monitoring thought. Computers are used to 'edit' things. How often do you write a document or email and then edit it repeatedly before sending it off - or not sending it off at all? If your computer has a keystroke logger installed, then your initial copy and all modifications are logged. Effectively, your thoughts are being monitored...
Oh well, what the hell...
Rather than charging students with crimes for this type of activity, I'd be for the immediate termination of anyone on the high-school's "I.T. staff" who actually thought this was a good or even "workable" policy!
If there really is a "hidden agenda" of fishing for "troublemakers", that's a very poor way to accomplish anything. I mean, hey, why not issue knives to every incoming student too and just sit back and wait to see who starts stabbing people?
And anyway, historically speaking, the tinkerers/experimenters of the world are the ones who accomplished and contributed the most to society as a whole. "Respect for authority" be dammed.... Computers are all about exploring and experimentation. If you can't even create a "virtual sandbox" of sorts out of the system configuration you're issuing your students, so they have "boundaries" to what they can do on said machines, that just illustrates that the students are smarter than the faculty. The tools *are* and *have been* available to restrict usage of computers to only specific applications. If you opt not to use them, then I think you're making a de-facto vote for allowing students to do as they will with the laptops.
You know which ones are most likely to go off and install programs like iChat AV or take full advantage of "remote control" software they figure out how to use? That's right -- the smartest ones and the ones who actually *enjoy* using a computer! But no, we have to punish them and encourage the mediocrity instead. Teach students that computers are ONLY there for specific tasks we set up for them in advance. Don't "have fun" with it or you're a "hacker". Drum all the curiousity out of them. It's EVIL!
-sigh-
I'm really starting to get frustrated with the inability of our culture to regard information security issues seriously. These kids downloaded a password cracking program, cracked administrator passwords that they knew they weren't supposed to have, disabled system monitoring, and spied on the admin!! (This was after the passwords were reset, RTFA for those of you that said they only read the password that was left on the computer case.) They might as well have stolen key to the principle's office and made a copy of it, and used that copy to snoop around in the principle's office whenever they wanted. It's the same thing.
It's like breaking and entering. In fact, it's easier to obtain sensitive information through misuse of computer systems than it is by actually breaking and entering somewhere. "Misuse of computer systems" may sound innocent and harmless, but it's not. It should be treated very, very seriously. If these children and their classmates aren't taught that their actions are wrong, what's to stop them from taking the same action again when more sensitive information is at stake? For instance YOUR SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER AND PERSONAL INFORMATION that they might have access to at their first jobs, or the personal information of YOUR SON OR DAUGHTER who could have been one of their classmates.
Do any of you think the security will really be any better at the first job where sensitive information is kept? FYI - no it won't be. The computers will be there, the information will be there and the temptation to take it will be there. And there will probably be less oversight from responsible individuals. They cracked passwords and stole access to systems and areas where they weren't supposed to be. If they're not punished seriously they'll do it again. We've gotta stop rewarding this behavior by defending information criminals.
I'm so glad to hear this.
Always choose the most negative way of living in the world.
George. W. Bush
A laptop isn't a device meant to be secured. A basic tenet of computer security is that anyone with physical access to the hardware effectively has admin access. What if the students simply wiped the drive or put a different one in? Would that be "hacking" deserving of a felony charge too? It seems like these children were baited to have their lives ruined. How did the massive amounts of taxpayer dollars help them?
The third question, is what point would prosecuting these children accomplish?
This sends a very distinct message: The system is, at best, borderline psychotic. Don't look, don't breathe too hard, stay in line and stop asking questions, and pray to God/"Bob"/Allah/etc that it doesn't notice you...
This letter was sent to the school administration by a student's mother prior to any charges being filed. The student is of course one of the 13 charged. If my memory of High School is even remotely accurate, this is exactly how my school administrators would have handled things (in absolutely the wrong manner) - however, my school administrators as quirky as they were, never would have filed criminal charges without even trying to get the parents involved.
May 3, 2005
I am writing this letter in response to recent events at the Kutztown
High School concerning the manner in which my son was questioned about
his use of the school laptop computer. My son was removed from an important chemistry review class and taken to an office where he was interrogated for more than thirty minutes by the school principle, assistant principle and laptop program director. During this questioning my son was accused of being involved in criminal activities and told that the Kutztown School District intended to press misdemeanor and/or felony charges against him in court. He was told that if he gave up the names of other students that they (meaning the school employees) would take that information into consideration when they filed the charges. I do not send my son to school to be intimidated, threatened, cajoled or bribed by school administrators under any circumstances. My son was told that he had destroyed school property and was in the same league as the kid who spray paints the exterior of the school buildings. I never heard such total rubbish. How dare any of you equate the abilities of my son with a group of mindless misfits who have nothing better to do than make graffiti? At the time of this meeting on May 2, 2005, none of the accusations being made against my son had any actual evidence to back them up because his laptop had not yet been checked for any current violations. My son was put in that intensely disturbing situation because some other students, who were probably terrified of what would happen to them, said my son had done something wrong.
I, personally, do not know exactly what my son does or does not do on his school computer, but what I do know is that at no time in the past four months was I ever contacted, by phone or by letter, about any problems that would justify the way school officials behaved towards my son during that meeting. If, at any time, I had been contacted by the school concerning inappropriate behavior by my son I would have put a stop to it immediately. Apparently, the administrators at the Kutztown High School seem to adhere to a policy that undermines parental authority. The only evidence I was ever privy to was a paper that was mailed to my home saying he had been given a one hour detention for the installation of something called Acquisition. A one hour detention would not indicate to any parent that there was a serious problem. The irony in that was that his acquisition wound up putting him through an inquisition.
I no longer trust the Kutztown High School administration to behave in a way that is professionally reliable or in the best interests of my child. Therefore I am stating, unequivocally, that there are to be no more meetings of any kind for any reason between my son and any Kutztown High administrator without my consent and/or physical presence at the meeting. If there is any problem at all with my sons conduct while at school I am to be notified immediately before any other action is taken.
I will no longer honor the contract that was signed concerning the use of the school lap top last September. Had I any indication at that time how inefficiently the program would be administered, I would never have agreed to it in the first place. I will not sign any other contract for the use of school computers unless there is an amendment clearly stating that any violations concerning the use of the equipment will be dealt with by the district a
Three years ago I was given a Dell laptop from work to use it on the road. I signed an agreement that I would not install anything unauthorized on the laptop drive. I purchased a laptop case from Dell ($20) and a 48GB laptop drive ($180). I installed windows 2000+Linux on MY DRIVE and used it with their laptop. I did not violate the agreement because I did not install anything on their disk. Switching drives was easy, because I purchased a case from Dell it involved handling a single screw (without a case it would have been 7 screws).
Now it is even easier, some laptops boot from a USB drive on which you can install whatever operating system and software you want. If the laptop does not boot from a USB drive then you can use KNOPPIX or other live CD/DVD plus a USB drive for your home directory. There are a few PPC live CD-s which can me used with iBooks. If you have money to spend, for an iBook, you can also buy a firewire case + hard disk to boot MacOSX from. You can buy a case+100GB laptop disk for less than $200. If you are tight on cash, can spend less than $100 for a case+ a 40GB laptop disk
Persecution of students by public school officials is a national crisis. Public school officials have dictatorial authority over children and are unaccountable to parents.
You can read more about it at Zerointelligence.net.
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
Fear is instilled through intimidation and use of force, respect is earned.
Throwing the book at these kids is a very good way to instill fear in the hearts of their classmates, but it will never earn anyone's respect. If anything it will be yet another demonstration of why the distrust and animosity they feel towards their elders is well earned.
I'd really like to find out who it is that decided to push for felony charges....so I can go kick their sorry ass into the dirt.
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
What you get is: A father decides, for some reason that helps his sons, to give each son a car. Since we're talking ibooks in the actual story, the car can be as you chose, a BMW. But the father puts a limiter on each car that only allows the car to be driven 5 blocks from their house. The car will refuse to be driven past 5 blocks with the limiter engaged. The limiters have a password bypasses, though, which the father has on a slip of paper taped to the back of the sunvisor. Simply by normal use of the car, each son will inevitably see the password.
One by one, sons disengage the limiters and begin using their cars to go outside the 5 block radius. Eventually, they are all doing it (natural human trait - if he can do it so will I).
When the father resets the passwords (how, I don't know, by wireless?), the sons use hacking tools to determine what the new passwords are.
There, a very close analogy using cars. Without some exception, the law is against the kids.
To me, this is simply a property rights situation. The traditional battle between owners who wish to limit use of their property that must be used by others and the desire of normal people to use property entrusted to them to the fullest extent that can benefit them.
It's clear in the US whose side the law is on.
This reminds me of a situation in tort law. Obviously, people who are injured by equipment they use at work can sue and win damages if they're injured by unsafe equipment. Also, if the employer puts safety measures into effect, and the employees are injured by disabling the safety measures, often the employer is not liable. Employers are liable in such situations, however, when they entice the employees to disable the safety measures. I.e., an employer puts in safety measures which slow the worker down, but then has a bonus regime which favors high production. Since the employee can make higher production by disabling the safety device, the employee does and gets injured. In such situations, the employer is ususally liable even though they officially forbit the disablement.
I doubt it's possible, but what if the students could prove they needed the extra power which came from having the administrative password in order to properly carry out assignments given to them by the school? Very unlikely this would be the case, and unlikely the students actually used the passwords in any way to further their school studies (they were teenage boys, after all), but I toss it out there as an idea.
Does anyone else wanna like blow up the school this is SOOO ridiculous? It's insane! I bet one of those kids has an IQ higher than every administrator in that county. They need to suck up their pride and get over the fact their friggin idiots at computers and were outsmarted by a few teenagers. Useful addresses and stuff: District Administration 50 Trexler Ave. Kutztown, PA 19530 Phone: (610) 683-7361 Fax: (610) 683-7230 Kutztown Area Senior High School 50 Trexler Ave. Kutztown, PA 19530 Phone: (610) 683-7346 Fax: (610) 894-4801 Superintendent Brenda S. Winkler bwinkler@kasd.org Teachers: Mrs. Reign: kneas@kasd.org Mrs. DeAngelis: sdeangelis@kasd.org Mrs. Dougherty: cdougherty@kasd.org Mrs. Boyer: bboyer@kasd.org Mr. Chambers: jchambers@kasd.org Mrs. Felker: lfelker@kasd.org
This reminds me of a time in High School when I was called to the office and told my network folder had been cleared and my login disabled for downloading MP3s. What were these MP3's that I downloaded? JFK's speeches for a final project in one of my classes.
Sorry, I ran out of MOD points yesterday!
You know, I feel for those kids, but the adults... This is really the kind of shit I'd expect from humans in Pennsyltucky.
I'm in Pottstown (23 miles as the google map flies) right now. For some reason people here are a bit more... savvy? Seriously.
110100 1101000 1101000 1100110 0 1101111 1101000 1100011 1
Charging high school kids with a felony for using the admin password taped on the back of the unit. Who was the brain dead prosecutor who looked at this case and thought it warranted felony charges? Just because you take an oath to uphold the law doesn't mean you also took an oath to leave your brain in a jar somewhere. Third degree felony...right up there with assault, petty burglary, and drug possession.
And what about the school administrators pressing charges? This is right up there with the asst. principal in that one school who had all the girls lift up their dresses to make sure none of them wearing thong underwear.
If you were in any way involved in this case and haven't stepped up and said this is wrong, then you're a f'ing idiot. And worse than just stupid, spineless and stupid. Come on, take a stand for common sense. I know it's rare in government these days, but just try. It'll feel good.
But they probably got elected to the school board because they support teaching intelligent design or putting labels in textbooks that call evolution a theory. I bet everyone in their church turned out to vote.
Pretty soon school uniforms will be the Christian Burqa. The only thing I'm wondering is who will be the first retard here to post, "They broke the law. If you don't like the laws vote for change."
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
In my shop passwords expire in 120 days. There is a constant, low level of complaint, but the users are accustomed to it and so don't complain too loudly. The only person who has to change his password in more than one place when it expires is me.
John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net)
I'd spend some time looking it over, making sure the anti-virus etc was set up correctly and if I found a password taped to the bottom, you can bet I'd try it to see what happened. I cannot fault a child for anything I would do myself. However once I identified what that password was associated with, you can bet I'd be on the phone and raise holy hell with the asshat that was incompetent enough not to memorize the admin password and taped it to each computer.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
"Know thy enemy and know thyself and you shall win a hundred battles." Sun Tsu, The Art of War. Sometimes I think liberals have a better grip on reality than the 'tough on [whatever]' crowd.
Don't push this button again.
Why not? Oh...yeah...incompetant gov't employess can't secure the network so they need to secure the clients too. Lame. I would never send my children to such a doucherific place like that.
Blar.
Why not be pressing charges there too? There is such a crime as an Accessory to a Felony, is there not?
--- no sig to see here... move along.
I love that episode.
I know this would take too much caring and itelligence for any typical person working in the school system, but why didn't someone "punish" these kids my allowing them to use thier curiosity productively? These kids were mainly curious, here was a golden opportunity to learn something that was actually useful. The schools admin could have set up after school detention and had the kids learn and perform his sysadmin tasks. This could have been such a great opportunity, but I guess it's just easier to dial 911 anytime there is an independant thought.
There is no reason for them to be charged as criminals. I for one, whenever I need to use our school computers, I use a Live Linux CD along with a jump drive to store files. Why? Because the school administrators are the typical "It's setup perfectly, the speed is meant to halter illegal downloading, your profile can only contain what we allow" type. When you can't get what you need done right and fast, do it your own way with want you want to use. Whenever my English teachers drag our classes to the Library, I tell my teacher I'll do it at home on the computer. They then recommend me to use a Google knockoff search service they pay for with our taxes. It's unnacceptable. I can not stand my school administrators. I can understand completely why the 13 kids did what they did. Plus, why the hell would they be using iBooks with Apple software at their school? Reminds me of the video editing teacher at my High School. She claims only Apple computers and Apple Operating Systems can run Photoshop and Video Editing programs.
The precedent has already been set countless times over the last 20 years: Computers are like physical property - if you enter without permission you are breaking and entering no matter if the key is in the door, under the carpet or dangling from a piece of string. Computers are also all multi-million dollar bank and government systems which either control the government or play with billions of dollars a minute - all computers are like this in the eyes of the law it doesn't matter if you are using an iBook, a sidekick or someone's desktop its still a threat to national security or potential theft of millions. Computers are like people: if you access without permission it is rape or assault. All codes and secrets stored on computers are always nuclear codes or corporate secrets that are worth billions, if you attempt in any way to copy, 'crack' or view any such data you are the biggest thief on the planet by default.
These are the precedents that have been set, i don't like them either, just make sure you don't totally fuck over your life by becoming the next legal guinnie pig.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
Make the key a series of pictures with a random sequence in the EXIF data. People remember faces better than names, right? Let me pick faces then. Give me a choice of blondes (computer generated of course) with no names or other identification, and then I pick a couple in the proper sequence, and the system unlocks/decrypts. Simple, yes? Why has no one built such a system in the last 30 years? It's so simple only a moron would use it? Looks like we have a whole lot of morons around here. Guess I'd better figure out Java or Python and get started writing.
When you want something built, come see me. If you want correct grammar and spelling, get a F*ing liberal arts student.
You take yourself too seriously.
In the book "Brave New World", the author invented the drug Soma.
You need it.
Badly.
Oh wait. You're trolling. I get it. ha ha ha. Good one!
These are the sort of kids that want to be on the forefront of technology, and here we are, criminalizing them for their curiosity. We're going to need them if we ever want to beat Asia in the Technology sector again.
We're creating a culture where people don't produce anything, and instead expect to get all their products by delivery from somewhere else. For all the business lingo about globalization and quarterly profits, the bottom line is, the place that manufactures the products is bringing in the jobs.
Kids use the passwords to spy on the administrators/teachers? I don't care how you slice it, that's just plain wrong. It's the same as opening a teacher's drawers to look for answers to a test. Just because the drawer isn't locked doesn't mean it isn't wrong. There's no "the technology made me do it" or "the password was on the back" defense here.
As far as I'm concerned, they have to throw the book at them. You can't let the kids run the school. You can let them have a lot of say in it, especially in the social aspects. But this is much too far.
I also don't get your comment that this school clearly creates an environment for failure. Are you familiar with the school? I'm not, and just from these stories about this particular issue, I can't tell anything about whether the environment encourages kids in academic and social ways.
Honestly, half of your post just doesn't make sense to me.
Added note: schools don't charge kids with felonies, district attorneys do.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
You know, this would be a much better world if the school district had given those kids medals for showing enough intiative to test their system - - and had reprimanded the kids who didn't for being passive dolts.
I get tired of this /. wanna-be hacker mentality that seems to be if you CAN do something you SHOULD be allowed to, and face no repercussions for it.
I mean look, if someone has physical access to a machine, they can get root, period. Any barriers you put in the way are only superficial and will only slow them down, if anything. We always operate under that assumption at work. We don't try and pretend we have an unhackable system because there's no such then when someone is physically at the computer. Rather we put in place as good a system as possible, and if someone insists on breaking it we take action which can range from having the department head talking to the to calling the police.
So it sounds like these kids were given plenty of chances, but they decided that there was just no real consequences so they'd just keep doing it. That's a very similar mindset to vandals that go around bashing in car windows and so on.
Now if they actually try and lock these kids up till they are 21 or something else, then yes I'll call it an overreation. However I don't think facing criminal charges is unreasonable, and if they get community service and probation, I think that's fine.
I won't give the kids crap for messing with the laptops initally, when the password was on the laptop, I mean even though it's technicly not allowed, it's just too tempting. If I leave my front door hanging open, it's still tresspassing to come inside, but I really can't blame a curious kid that does that.
However when the passwords were changed and the kids not only broke in, but disabled the school's administrative access, well that's another thing entirely. Now we are talking about kids who disable the security system on my windows, come in, and try to mess with my door lock so I can't get in. That's serious.
I personally don't think taking away the laptops is a severe enough solution. I think it would just reenforce the idea that it's ok to cause trouble on comptuers, since nothing will ever really happen to you.
We encounter those kind of people on campus peridocly, they think they can just break in to other people's systems and it's ok, because it's just computers and no real consequences will result. We had one kid that took out the main library's network several times, trying to get Cain and Able to work right. He was convicted of a crime, by the way. Right now we have someone who's pretty clearly on campus, but smart enough to route through a system outside that is methodicly trying to break in to UNIX systems all over campus, with some success. It's likely to be a rather large sentence when they catch this guy, as it has caused a lot of problems and lots time and the guy just won't quit.
I think tech savvy kinds need to learn that it's not ok to just disregard people's rights to their computers. It's not ok to break in to something just because you have the technical ability. And it's not a case of "Don't do this or we'll make it harder for you by taking away your access" it's "Don't do this because it is wrong, and there are real consequences".
Wow. You're probably trolling ME to get me to rant back, but I'm going to rant anyway.
No I wasn't trolling. I investigate computer crime for a living, and I'm telling you, it's rampant.
You'll be making plenty of jokes when your soc digits get jacked by some kid who's "playing around" and decides to start a bank account in your name, and you'll be lucky if it's some kid and not a dedicated criminal organization from another country. And I'm tired of people defending kids who learn to crack systems on computers that they don't own. I know they didn't perpetrate identity or data theft, but this is how it starts.
When you allow children to run rampant over rules, they learn to not respect those rules. They then relate this attitude towards rules and laws in other facets of their life. This translates to more serious law breaking when they get older. That's how it works.
I'm not suggesting that these kids receive felony charges. I am also not suggesting that the school's handling of the whole situation wasn't akin to a monkey f#@%(&! a football. I am suggesting that they be seriously punished in some way, because that is what they deserve. I'm all for constructive punishment that is educational. I realize that a criminal record with a felony conviction can affect people for decades. I realize that things like jail time often do not curb negative behavior, but make it worse. But that's no reason to take it easy on people that break the law.
The lack of understanding of information security issues in our society that lead to things no/poorly enforced due diligence laws for people that collect our personal information, low security budgets within corporations and government entities, and people who think it's ok to troll around in other people's personal information.
If you want to learn how to crack passwords and subvert information systems, that's great - we need more people with a better understanding of infosec, and a younger generation that is interested and passionate about the subject. But do it on your own computer or a dedicated lab. Respect other people's property.
Prosecution in this case (where the passwords were taped to the back of the iBooks) is so clearly wrongful, that no reasonable person could deny that the prosecution of the defendants violates their rights under the First, Fourth and Fifth Ammendments.
Cthulhu for President! Why settle for the lesser evil?
Lets face it logs showing admin logins prove nothing. doesn't establish who loged in.
Files on the computer prove nothing as all the computers have remote access installed and the admin password was in the wild. This means that any computer at the school could be accessed remotely and files added without the users knowledge.
Sure its proof enough for the school to say the violated the TOS but to even make a charge in criminal court is ridiculous.
This is the equivalent of of telling kids they can't bring cell phones to school and then having them arrested for trespassing if there caught with one as the did not have permission to enter the school with a cell phone.
PS I wonder if they searched any of the teachers/administration computers for unauthorized programs...and if they found any would they have them arrested???
Read parent again. Point is not whether it was right or wrong, point is that administration has lost control of their own schools and are acting worse than that kids they're supposed to be in charge of.
You should probably work for Klutztown; you appear to be well suited.
I would say the moment they required the kids to use the laptops and to take them home, off of school property, was the moment it stopped being someone else's sole property.
Wheel in the sky keeps on turnin'.
they don't get computers.
...etc.
The school should have rethought their use of the computers and provided alternatives for those kids not able to handle the responsibility that comes with the use of school property. The computers are tools, provided by the school, to assist in learning, etc...
I'm a lowly parent that would have seen this coming a mile away. I would have made a plan to address it and kept it at the ready. Said plan would be handled with the parents, kids and the school. Unless the kid actually did something that would cause a lot of harm, the police have better things to do.
Does the school let kids continue to use other equipment when repeated irresponsible behavior is demonstrated? If they do, then they are part of the problem. How about the media equipment, or other valuable stuff that must be signed in or out? Why were the computers not handled this way?
The rule should be very simple. Mess with the machine, and lose it for the duration of the year. The kids don't need the computers to get the learning done, but it's probably nicer and a lot more fun if they do.
The problem I see is failure to understand how kids work. Some of them are going to be able to handle the tech and give the school the respect it deserves. Others are not going to be able to do that. (For whatever reasons.)
Going to the police, for a non-violent event, is simply not warranted and is draconian.
By continuing to leave the problematic computers in the kids possession, they entered into a power struggle, essentially saying "we have fixed this now, so you can't do what you did again". That's a challenge for a bright high-schooler. A challenge that will be taken. Foolish and only ends up hurting the kids and the school.
Possible options for these kids, that would likely avoid a felony charge against them:
- no computer. (Easiest and safest.)
- alternative computer use in lab or other controlled setting. (Fairly safe, but not exactly easy.)
- redirect the desire to learn into something constructive that would benefit the school and the kids. (Risky, but depending on the kids, could yield some great things.)
- require computers to be checked in and out. Loss of home, recess priviliges. (easy, not too risky, probably effective, given the other kids free use of the machines and the extra hassle imposed on those not willing to play ball.)
Our schools are supposed to be building future citizens, one young person at a time. If kids are to learn by example, and some of them end up being leaders, I fear for the state of the nation when the seeds sowed today bloom later on.
The lack of foresight and inability to properly address the matter in a way that avoids escalation and power struggles tells me a lot about how this particular school does things. And they get poor marks, IMHO.
Blogging because I can...
If you don't physically control the hardware and environment, don't expect them to stay secure.
All this should be no surprise to folks following security issues. It's an axiom; why be shocked and surprised when ignoring this rule fails?
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
The one thing I agree with you about is that respect isn't an emotion. However, if fear can be a motivation for respect, so can admiration.
To use a concrete example, when I'm on vacation somewhere where I'm not likely to return, I still act fairly and politely, despite the fact that I am not afraid of any consequences for doing otherwise. I do this because I would not desire to live in a society where everyone is rude and cheats you, and I think the golden rule is a good philisophical basis for moral reasoning. On the other hand, people willingly do things they are afraid of with the expectation of punishment all the time, it's called civil disobedience. I guess fear isn't the only motivating factor, huh?
Now I suppose you could argue that fear is still involved despite being covered in layers of abstract reasoning. Yes, and all human behaviour is just animal behaviour with additional layers, too. This is just reductio ad absurdum, the same sort of college stoner philosophy that has us believe that all actions are selfish. Not that I have anything against college stoner philosophy, but it's possible to lose all relevant detail in "simplification".
Besides, both game theory and animal observations strongly suggest that cooperation naturally emerges as a strategy because it maximizes long-term benefit (well, that and the "play your opponent's last move" to discourage cheating). It's hard-wired. Again, so much for fear as the sole motivation for respect.
And check out this site for info about a non-authoritarian child-rearing philosophy that can work for you.
Hypothetical case in point: If a policeman comes to your door, and tells you that the neighborhood must be evacuated immediately, you certainly have a right to know why. But you *must* comply with his directive first (under current laws)... and an explanation is not legally necessary. If there was a sitaution that put the entire neighborhood at risk, and time was of the essence to evacuate, causing a policeman to stop and explain his directives to everyone could cause someone else danger.
Blind compliance with authority is morally reprehensible, yes. But RESPECT for authority really is necessary in a civil society.
Remember - that authority comes from a mandate from the society in which you live. If you want to continue to live there, you must abide by its rules - and respect for designated authorities is one of the lynchpins of modern society.
All this yammering is fucking off-topic anyway. The real, serious issue here is that these kids are getting charged with a felony for PLAYING with computers they were given. The term "ridiculous" just does not do this situation any justice at all. No, this certainly transcends ridiculosity.
They caused noone any serious harm. People get off MUCH easier for vicious physical violence. If we MUST hand down felony charges to kids, I think it would be much more constructive to charge the kids who physically assault others for being "nerdy" and whatnot with felony assault.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
The requested application was not found on this server.
It seems they're trying to cover up what happened.
School conspiracy?
For those who have read my Journal you already knew about this story.
We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
People in power should be given authority because they have already earned the respect of those who they will have authority over. People in power also must continue behave in a manner that remains worthy of respect under scrutiny.
In the case of your police example, if a police department consistently and fairly enforces the law, responds rationally and appropriately to threats, and quickly weeds out any corruption in its ranks, then, when a police officer shows up at my door and informs me that it is an emergency and I must evacuate I will trust and quickly comply with this command.
On the other hand, if a police department is seen as corrupt, unfair, inefficient, or irrational in its response to threats then, when a police officer shows up at my door I will have grounds to be suspicious, ask questions, and possibly not comply with what I am asked to do.
All respect is earned and can be lost.
Looking back on it now, I can see that I deserved *something* for disobeying a direct order... detention perhaps, or losing computer privileges for a week...
No. You deserved no punishment whatsoever for turning up the brightness on a monitor that had the brightness all the way down. Making that sort of adjustment is common sense.
In fact, anyone who would suggest that displaying common sense is a crime, or that military-type jargon such as "disobeying a direct order" is something that we should be using to educate school children, is not thinking correctly.
In fact, the whole idea that public schools should be run like a semi boot-camp type environment, with "direct orders" and "zero tolerance policies" and a complete and utter disdain for individual creative thinking, is just plain wrong.
I was in the military for many years, and I know exactly what military-style training can and can't achieve. It's excellent for turning out people who will do things EXACTLY as ordered, and PRECISELY according to a pre-determined plan. It's really not that great at teaching creative thinking, or instilling a system of personal ethics that aren't imposed by an outside authority. It's great for cranking out infantrymen, and pretty darn awfull for instilling any sort of American democratic and egalitarian ideals.
Heck, if the teacher in charge of that class had bothered to do her jo, and pre-check each machine and each monitor before class to ensure that the basic settings were correct, then the problem wouldn't have arisen in the first place. Oh, but wait, that would require people in positions of petty authority to take RESPONSIBILITY for their own actions.... definatelly a part of the military tradition that school authorities would want to run from like the plague ;) I mean, making KIDS be responsible for their actions is cool, but actually holding teachers and administrators to the same standard? Heh.. it'll never happen.
I got really lucky...I used to mount the administrator's network drives and remove restrictions on the machine I was using...I would've been out the door SO fast in most other schools...the worst I got was a talking to for making message windows pop up on other user's computers, haha
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Today's school administrators do overreact to a lot of computer things. When I was in high school, in computer class one day, I finished my work, and I decided to browse the network (I was on Windows 98). Just to see what other computers were on. But back then, before we had optical mice, I accidently clicked an icon to access another computer somewhere on the network. I see my mistake, and close the window. The computer decides to freeze on me. So I do all of the normal things to close explorer and restart it (I had my unsaved word document in the background, and I couldn't get back to word). About 2 minutes later, I was very frustrated. Suddenly, the vice principal and one of the secretaries burst in. They run over to my computer and force the kids in the seats next to me to get up. They immedietely ask my name, and start interrogating me. I played dumb, telling them I must have done something by accident. The vice principal says "Well, what did he do?". The secretary says "I don't know, the server just said this computer was sharing another computer". The secretary asks me if I "hacked" another computer and took control of it. I tell her no, I did no such thing. The vice principal tells me the punishment is very severe, either a few weeks suspension or expulsion. I assure them that I must have accidently clicked something I shouldn't have. They don't believe me, so they flip out their phones and call the district-wide system administrator to come over. 5 minutes later, she arrives. They go over in the corner and start talking. She starts laughing quietly, and smiles at them, obviously telling them it was nothing to worry about. The vice principal and secretary leave with a very dissapointed face. I know they really wish they could have expelled me for "hacking". Please people, educate your educators, and stop this "no tolerance" policy! Sure, I know what I did was wrong. I got a little curious and did something I wasn't supposed to, even though I did no harm. Did I deserve explusion or suspension? In my mind, no. If they told me I was at fault, and I would get a detention, I would have fessed up. I feel guilty that I lied to them, but it was either them, or the rest of my high school career.
...needs some serious retraining in the area of common sense. (Emphasis mine).
People keeping using this phrase "common sense" when in fact they mean "good sense". I contend that good sense is in fact not very common.
You make the mistake of thinking you can educate the fundamental stupidity out of people. You can't.
where the 13 have been charged with computer trespass, an offense state law defines as altering computer data, programs or software without permission.
Isn't that the very definition of spyware/adware/malware? How come than we nail these kids, yet let big corporations go right on ahead?
How do I go about finding these free one generation old pcs? I would like so much to have some obsolete hardware to play with. Do you have any strategies for finding these things for free?
It seems to me that using pricewatch you still must spend at least 60 dollars (mobo, ram, cpu, case) and this is for something much more than 1 generation old, and assuming you already have extra monitor/keyboard/modem/whatever.
I am not meaning to sound sarcastic or anything I am actually very interested in finding out how to locate free hardware of almost any sort. If you have some pointers I would be very appreciative.
thank you
stefan
"How would you like it if I used educational jargon when talking to you?"
The right answer would have been:
"Oh. I didn't realize you knew any"
The real, serious issue here is that these kids are getting charged with a felony for PLAYING with computers they were given.
The kids weren't given laptops any more than your employer gave you your computer. They were provided with a tool to use in a particular way. They were informed that there would be consequences for misues. It is also apparant from the site defending these kids that each of them had been repeatedly repremanded for similar activity, and they kept doing it. The author of giveusabreak.org seems to think that the kids wanted to stop, but "just couldn't control themselves." See, it wasn't their fault, the evil computers made them do it.
The kids will now get to argue their case to a jury.
Si vis pacem, para bellum
The only thing more annoying than a Libertarian is an (un|mis)informed Libertarian
Yes, I am a criminal. My crime is that of curiosity. My crime is that of judging people by what they say and think, not what they look like. My crime is that of outsmarting you, something that you will never forgive me for.
It holds today just as it did 20 years ago.
I haven't read the story. I don't really have any feelings or opinion as to what the kids did.
But I can't help but notice that the debate is largely over how bad what the kids did was.
I just wanted to remind all that Apple exists because Jobs and Wozniak got seed money by building and selling blue boxes on campus (which probably can be argued to be significantly more criminal than whatever these kids did). Nobody criticizes these people today, or considers them failures -- they're used as icons of what people should do correctly.
I doubt that there are many serious computer security workers out there that hasn't, at some point, poked about in things that they shouldn't really be poking about in.
That doesn't mean that society shouldn't have any consequences for kids messing about with computers, but somehow it managed to function fine for decades and a lot of luminaries got produced from yesterday's fringe characters.
For all I know, it doesn't apply well to these kids, but I'm sure it does apply to some others.
Any program relying on (nontrivial) preemptive multithreading will be buggy.
breaking and entering if you're given the key to the lock? it sounds like the school taped the key to the bottom of the laptop.
They leave the password on the back of the computer, and then they expect not to get hacked? It is like putting a doggie biscuit in front of a dog and then slapping the dog when he eats it! This is not right!!!
Admin: OMGWTF! I just got portscanned!
Student: Hey, they have telnetd running with no password required for root access!
Admin: OMG! OMG! OMG! I've been HAAAAAACKED!
Principal: Call the cops! Alert the media! HUZZAH!
Let's say this had happened in the military, you were put in a classroom and told to turn on your computer, and someone did this.
Now, I'm not an expert on the military, I don't the rules or anything, but would someone have gotten in trouble for solving an obviously minor problem with the equipment in a training situtation? Equipment that they, as owners and operators of TVs, knew how to fix?
I'm not talking about the 'break them down and build them up' boot camp type training, where you get in trouble for completely made-up things. I'm talking about a normal training situtation.
Somehow I don't think so. People in the military are expected to be able to solve minor problems themselves, and every single order requires some interpetation.
"Don't touch anything", for example, would imply hovering in midair, so obviously there's some judgement call on what 'anything' is. The trick is to make sure the orders are clear (I'm sure officers have classes on that.) and that people taking orders will all interpet them identically. (And I'm sure there are classes on that.)
The failure here wasn't 'disobeying orders', it was failure to give clear orders, coupled with general incompetence on the part of the order-giver at understanding technology.
And if officer training them had reacted like that, with an equivilent punishment, (suspension of a week is fairly serious)...well the punishment might have stood anyway. But I'm fairly certain that officer wouldn't be training any more people like that. Going around giving ambigious orders and overreacting when people show initiative is not something the military looks for in its officers.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
...Take responsibility.
It's the school's fault because they didn't take the students computers away? They merely told them it was wrong, they should have known so and don't do it again. And yet they're at fault and not the kids?
Wrong.
Citizens must take reponsibility for their own actions.
As to "doing real harm", they spied on the teachers actions. There's plenty of room for harm there.
I also see how checking equipment in and out would solve anything. If they're going to hack school property that is in their possession for weeks, they'll do it for a day or hours too. They'll just cover their tracks better. Thus they'll learn the lesson kids learn very well nowadays: "It's only wrong if you get caught."
It was wrong to do what they did. No ifs, ands, or buts. No argument over punishments, esclations, anything. They need to know better than to do what they did. Even if there were no consequences, it's still wrong. If they can't learn this on their own, then punishment is quite appropriate. Maybe they'll learn it that way.
It's stunning to me how fast slashdotters rise to defend the actions of people that are clearly legally and morally wrong. That somehow they shouldn't be punished. That rules are for other people. Well, they aren't. They're for all of us. And by letting kids know that there is a right and a wrong, they help those kids be successful (in the right ways) in the future.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
Some people who should know better will say something about how without corporal punishment all the school can do is go to the police. Back in the days when there was coporal punishment in schools a school principal told me that other methods were often more effective - a child that is regularly beaten up by adults at home at a time when no-one was getting jailed for child abuse is just going to laugh at the threat of being hit on the hand by a wooden cane. Students can still be talked to just as effectively now as they were back then - taking them to the police is a cop out.
I grew up surrounded by teachers, which is why I avoided being one as much as possible (tutoring engineering students doesn't count.)
actions.
and they are not yet citizens, but kids.
Felony charges are quite a bit more serious than their lack of obedience calls for. The school is at fault for not providing a learning environment. Instead of employing one of many tools for resolving conflict, they escalated and entered into a power struggle when they didn't have to. That's their fault because they are supposed to be qualified to handle these things. I'm just a parent and would have gotten this right. They can easily do the same.
Nobody got shot, no significant harm done, simply broken pride and the loss of a power struggle between the kids and the educators. That's all this really is.
The fucking educators, of all people, should know the tools they are using better than those they are trying to teach, shouldn't they? They should know as you and I do that these kinds of things can easily be circumvented. --and they will, particularly when teens are pushing their boundaries are concerned.
Kid pulls a gun, harms someone, etc... by all means, get the police involved. These kids simply *used* the computers they were handed and *learned* something while they were at it. Was it a wise choice? No. Was it worth charges? Hell no. Could this mess be avoided while getting some lessons taught at the same time? Absolutely.
Was it was worth was some time doing their work the hard way in order to better appreciate the computers and the school that provided them in the first place? Totally. Those kids don't *need* the computers. Perhaps the educators do, and if that's the case it's sad.
There is nothing that a young person needs to know that requires a computer in order to properly learn it and utilize that knowledge. It's nice to build literacy today, but not required for adult competency.
I find it equally morally wrong to close doors for teens when they are still learning and struggling. Those charges will close some doors for those kids that just don't need to be closed.
You think it was wrong. Well, actually I would agree. Two wrongs do not make a right however. Punishing those kids needs to happen. Doing it in a way that makes an impact while not harming them is the better choice. Again, still learning, not quite people. That's why they cannot do adult things. Too young to fully understand the bigger picture.
Your points about hacking in hours instead of days may be well founded, but we would not know that now would we?
Personally, I would not allow them access to computers for a while, or depending on the kids, redirect them. That solves the immediate problem, offers an oppertunity to interact with parents, avoides the police and allows the school to keep control and continue to educate instead of alienate.
"Only wrong if I get caught."
No. I didn't mean lip service dicipline, just the sort that does not do long term harm, unless warranted. I'm sorry but this does not warrant both the dollars and the time spent to prosecute these kids.
Besides, what if they lose and the kids are not guilty? Could happen. I know I would get my kid the very best attorney. Not a good outcome for the school is it?
My point simply being, all of these things have anything to do with getting some solid ethics into kids lacking some. Wonder how they feel applying for jobs later with felony convictions? As they get older and understand just what happened, they may well see the same thing I do today.
One of my early schools was this kind of school. We hacked the old computers and we made them do stuff that was fun and interesting. Did we see a judge? No. The wise teacher, working with us, did the following:
- no access, unless the rules are followed and we let him know what we are doing.
- normal computer competency instruction halted.
- we all learned together that term. We started a lot of goofy projects and completed a number of them. Today, that group is composed of professional programmers, web developers, consu
Blogging because I can...
Are kids going to jump on it?
Jail 'em.
Put up a sign: "Don't jump on my trampoline." Curiously enough, the sign seems to alert more kids that a trampoline is available for jumping. Are kids going to jump on it?
Jail 'em.
The computer in the career room, the only one used by both students and teachers didn't have any physically accessable drives, and just had a modem for connecting to the district database, and no normal terminal software.
So, I had to enter my keylogger with "copy con: kl.com", then alt-### alt-### alt-###... to get it on the system, that was tedious, particularly while avoiding notice.
I checked back later and managed to get a teacher password, so I started the teacher application, and got to the screens for entering grades.
then, I did nothing.
Because my teachers actually knew what grades they gave to students, and I was the only student with the ability, and poor grades. (2 others possibly could have done it... but they both had 3.5+ gpa's anyway... I checked.)
I cleaned up after myself, and as far as I know, nothing ever came of it.
The lesson? if teachers actually knew their students, this sort of thing wouldn't happen.
I figure Kutztown could probably afford to buy the laptops, because they wern't hiring teachers.
Two Teachers: $90,000 salary + benifits, each has a class of 22-23 students; or One teacher, and 45 $1000 laptops + support, and that teacher now has to watch 45 kids and their machines.
This is typical. These kids are not felons, they are creative, adolescent, possibly rebellious, quite curious and talented, and minors. They are to be applauded, supported and directed to positive study and not threatened or made criminals. When I was in school nobody stopped kids who picked on me daily, I had to do that after studying karate for a while. When I despaired of going to public highschool with kids who jumped me with a knife and the young laughing criminals that even the smart kids had turned into, I lucked out getting my ass into private school and that was the beginning of a wonderful transformation in my personality not to mention they had a great computer room - two, one with early word processors (I got onto the school newspaper team) and another general purpose one. Plus a Basic IV minicomputer for a data structures class I loved, don't think you'll see that in klutztown. Oh yeah we also went on to win the national championships in the american computer science league (no thanks to me, the junior member I guess I barely held my own but there were a few geniuses in the group). This sort of an incident is a very good way for parents to discover that their children are going to an inferior school, and that the values of their community are inferior too. Time to get elsewhere. The irony is that the (federal) administration undoubtedly has somebody somewhere who has a clue, and in order to nurture the next generation of scientists, computer whizzes, and army cyberdefenders, they need to put a stop to this kind of bullshit and protect the kids and discipline the idiots in charge. A mass firing would be useful.
Said with true grace and insight. I wish I could have said that as well as you have.
For breaking the encryption on a school computer? Kinds get their asses kicked by bullies - with stitches and permanent injuries - and quite often said bullies get an (oh so scary) suspension... as if they wanted to be in school in the first place.
But guess or find an easy password so that you can browse the internet on non-permitted sites, and you have police action and have to deal down for lesser charges?
Screwed that, continuing is just a scare tactic and I hope that this proceeds, gets a jury, and is laughed out of court. At that point it will show how generic/stupid the law is in the first place and hopefully it will be shot down in flames and the school shown to be run by a bunch of anal-retentive skewed-priority morons.
Who said anything about a 30-day policy? I'll tell you right now that even without a password-expiration policy (because we don't have one) users will still sticky-note the fucking passwords on the desks.
If you come up with a good alternative to passwords in general that's cost effective, let me know and then I'll let you rant.
The flow and general content of the letter, however, seemed quite good. I've worked in school, and I can tell you honestly that it's a much better work than I'd expect from some teachers.
Yep typical righteous wankers.
Dont they realise that those nonconformers are todays billion $ CEOs.
America is going down the toilet of insanity.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
This story is among many experiences as of late that has me extremely discouraged of the compentency of ANY school administration. In this particular story, the people who exepcted the students to NOT look at a sticker on the laptop and figure out how to log in to the adminsitrator account are the ones that should be punished (fired). The students were just using their brain! Isn't this something that should be encouraged?? I guess that's not what school administrators want. They want brainless students who follow "orders".
My next question is why are these kids being issued laptops?? Laptops are fragile devices and have to be treated with care. I can ony imagine how many broken iBooks the school fixes in a year. These are schools that are always screaming for money.
There seems to be money in the public schools to buy these things, however they do not have the money to pay a proper admin.
There also seems to be enough money in districts to buy these things, but not:
Koolaid for the kids
Paper for the photo copier
Sponges for cleaning the desks
Handsoap
Napkins
No kiddin...these were either on my son's list or my neice and nephews list of school supplies. I am going to have a SERIOUS talking to the teacher and school administration when his first day in school arrives. If I don't get a resolution, I will ask about the next school board meeting. If the taxpayers do not stand up and ASK why they are being asked to buy koolaid for the whole class, then the next thing you know parents are going to be buying the textbooks as well. School supply lists such as these are taxation without representation and are the things that need to be brought up during aproval of future schoool levys. If Paying a extra 5 a month on my property tax (where school money comes from in my state) gets me out of supplying my sons class with koolaid for the year, then I will be happy.
Gorkman
We do forbid re-use of passwords, and make you wait a minimum of two days after changing your password to change it again, but we have no textual requirements other than it must not be in the "easy to guess" words list.
John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net)
Going around giving ambigious orders and overreacting when people show initiative is not something the military looks for in its officers.
Very true. You're absolutely correct.
However, judging by all of the stories I've been hearing about the results of various "zero tolerance" policies in high schools across America, giving ambiguous orders and overreacting when people show initiative is something that school districts apparently search for when selecting teachers and administrators ;)
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
Touche : )
To me this makes the students "authorized holders" and/or "authorized possessors" of the computers. According to the law in question, they are allowed to do what they did to their own machines.
:-)
Being an armchair attorney can be fun.
These students broke an explicit written agreement with their school, in the process committing a felony. The agreement is clear, the law is clear. They continued to do so after repeated warnings and progressively more severe punishments: this too, is clear.
:)
The only question i find interesting is why the school demonstrably chose to press charges against only some of the students involved, and not all.
Letters by parents and employees of the school assert that choice exempted certain students based on money, priviledge, and family connection. *That* is the only interesting part of this left for me, and i hope to see the details of that spread far and wide.
Oh, and that to lose your right to vote as a felon in many states you must serve at least a year and a day in jail. Meaning that if you were paroled 8 months into a 5 year sentence then you can still vote (as long as you don't go back and serve the other 4 months).
Please learn the law before you argue over it.
Get your Unix fortune now!
You are having difficulty understanding that our legal system is not the same as our school system. The principals are done with this, the case is in the court. Will the kids get off? Maybe. Will that hurt the school? It might. But that isn't really under the school's control.
You would get the best lawyer possible to make sure your kid doesn't suffer the consequences for what they did wrong. Great lesson. As an added bonus, if your kid gets off, you undermine the school too. Wonderful. And you complain about the administrators?
Look, they spied on the teachers. How do you know what harm was and wasn't done? They could have seen the teachers exposing critical personal info. And you say the students didn't do anything to merit punishment?
You say you hacked the computers at your school. And your teacher stopped you, and you didn't end up seeing a judge. Well, did you hack the computers again, as these students did?
Not only did they surely know what they did was wrong, but they were stopped, told so, told of the consequences and they did it again.
As to "they are not citizens, but kids". My post said that "future citizens take responsibility for their actions". They are presumably future citizens. And they will become better citizens if we treat them as such, not if we treat them as kids.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
I maintain if the kids can't play ball with the computers, then you pull the computers.
They don't *need* the computers any more than they need felony charges.
You don't understand. I would get a great attorney because I do not believe the charges are justified, given what was done and how it was handled. Any kid of mine would see some pretty severe punishment over this whole mess, but would not end up with a blotched record, unless necessary. Said kids would not be seeing a computer for a good long while either.
I believe applying the law, in this case, was premature. I also believe it was applied because it was simply easier for the school to do so.
The school didn't exercise all of its options before handing this off to the authorities. Again, pull the computers from the problem kids and let 'em work the hard way for a while. If that was done and the kids were still a problem, perhaps escalation is warranted. However I don't see that being the case. My primary point being the school did not use it's control very well and released it far too quickly rather than really address the issue.
"And they will become better citizens if we treat them as such, not if we treat them as kids."
Bull.
As kids mature, you handle them in an age appropriate manner, in order to allow for development issues. That's the difference between kids and adults.
Rather than challenge the kids, which they did by returning the computers "fixed" so that they can't be messed with, why not apply the new software to all the computers, then deny access to those kids that caused the trouble? Explain why, let everybody know what the next steps are going to be and continue on from there? I don't see this happening and it should.
The result would be, no charges, improved school security, object lesson for the administrative support staff, improved expectations for parents, and improved communication about the issues at hand without anyone having to hit the courts.
You also get some really sorry kids handwriting their work, using the real books for a while, having to work at home and transfer files through authorized media, etc...
I'll apologize for the end of my last post. It's just your attitude really offends me. I can't imagine handing kids off to the police unless I had no option. (And I've been in that position and have used the police when necessary.)
The school had plenty of viable and likely effective options open to them. Those should have been used before putting the kids into the legal system and they were not.
Blogging because I can...
I wonder if the judge can recommend the administration be charged with abuse of process?
These kids are 17, not 7. It's time for them to start doing things right for the right reasons, not just because they might get a whuppin'. This is just one example. My neighbor I grew up with who was kept strongly in line by his father (which only encouraged his rebellion) and ended up in jail immediately after HS graduation is another example. Or the stereotypical "Catholic schoolgirl".
I also cannot agree on your fighting the charges because you don't like them. Don't like the law? Write your congressman. The courts apply the laws, not make them. Honestly, these kids will likely all plead down to misdemeanors anyway.
Part of my complaints here come from my concern that people think our court system was created so that people with great lawyers can escape punishment. I don't agree. It was created to keep the innocent from being convicted wrongly, not to let those who actually did wrongs get away with it. I know that is a side-effect, possibly an unavoidable one, but I'm not going to say it's okay just because we can't figure out a way to stop it.
I think these kids records are probably safe. Juvenile records are not easy to access once a kid reaches adulthood. I could be wrong though.
I don't see down below how your statement that after they did something wrong, they should have explained it was wrong and applied new software, and explain the next steps is any different from what happened. They were caught once with little effects, they did it again. That's how they got in the big trouble.
I don't think the administrative support staff needs an object lesson. The lesson is already this: if you have physical access to a machine you can compromise it. End of story. I'm sure they knew that already. They put locks on the computers for the same reason I put locks on my house, to keep honest people out. Right next to my locked door I have a window that is easily broken. I don't bar it, because I know it's a battle I can't win, and I'm content with the level of security I have.
But I don't have the equivalent of these kids in my neighborhood breaking into houses. If I did, I might just consider moving, instead of making my house a citadel. Yes, I know this is the equivalent of your "take the computer away" proposition, so I do see the merits of it. I just don't see how the fact that they didn't do it makes the kids blameless for what they did. Just like me moving away doesn't solve the crime problem in my (now old) neighborhood, taking away these kids opportunity to do wrong doesn't necessarily help them learn not to do it, at least as far as I can see.
Apology accepted for the end of your post. I did find it out of line, but I wasn't offended. No ill will here.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
Sounds to me like he did the best he could to get out of it, and finally found a way to save enough people enough embarassment that the incident can now go away.
Instead, I have a laptop with RSA keys, and login by SSH, passwordless. I don't have to remember any passwords, and (usually) root password is bogus, anyway. (Can't login to root with a password by SSH!)
Passwords are then irrelevant.
I issue a command likeand I'm logged in as root. If I don't have my laptop, I get nowhere. I then need physical access to machine, have to reboot the system, set a root password, and then login.
Passwords suck. Ones you can remember aren't worth using, and those worth using are near impossible to remember, especially when you have 20+ serers to remember passwords for. Why bother? I've given up on them almost entirely.
And, passwordless logins can be protected by the full strennth of a 256 bit key. (Just don't lose yer laptop!)
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
Sounds to me like it's *perfect* for instilling American ethics. Don't think for yourself, watch TV and vote for any one of the two excellent parties. Bombing other people is a valid way to enhance our economic situation and people disagreeing are unpatriotic, which is very bad. Because we say so.
I've been sitting here in my room in Australia reading the articles and comments posted here with some amazement. I can't believe kids would actually be expelled or arrested for merely modifying the software on a computer, even to the extent that it has to wiped clean and everything re-installed.
At my high school my friends and I caused the network admin a fair amount of grief. I remember a friend intentionally infected a computer with a virus and went on a ctrl-a > del spree through C drive on more then one computer, we stole and decrypted students and teachers password hashes, and once a guy sitting at the computer across from me flipped the wattage control switch on the PSU of the computer I was using and blew it up, and the worst that happened to us (when we were caught) was expulsion from the library for the day.
After working in the IT field for a few years now, starting at the helpdesk level (after teaching for two years; I still serve as a consultant for the school), the one thing that's always surprised me is the utter STUPIDITY of a great many people. Taping the password doesn't surprise me (I've seen it only too often) though taping the ADMINISTRATOR'S PASSWORD certainly does.
It's fairly obvious that the students here are quite a bit more knowledgeable than those in charge, and that's definitely part of the issue. Mark my words, the school and its district will come to regret this decision, because, as I see it, the responsibility lies squarely on them. Remember when educators used to have the best interest of their students in mind? Now they're slapping them with felony charges...ugh.
Now that the kids are cleared of the felony charges, is it time yet to hunt down the school officials and try to get them fired, or see to it that 'an accident' might happen to their cars?
Partial Credit: The Engineer's Best friend
"Well, the bridge didn't fall all the way down!"