As I understand it, Longhorn is supposed to have vector-based widgets. If cairo can be integrated well enough so that this stuff is solidly in gtk and gnome in a year then we'll have beaten MS in a very obvious visible way.
I read somewhere that this will be especially useful for graphics artists and researchers because the huge displays they use make the icons almost useless. If everything was vector based then that wouldn't happen.
I'm excited. Can't wait to see this stuff in my default Ubuntu install.
Damn man. You sure do make a lot of assumptions for someone who who is telling ME to get off of MY high horse.
First of all -- I am a very atypical "diplomatic brat." I went to a bilingual school whose mission it was to make _global_ citizens. I despised my fellow diplomatic community for all of the reasons you stated.
I can answer some of your questions though.
Why is China given MFN-like status? For two reasons, primarily because it is extremely financially benefitial to the U.S. and others and also because, unlike Iraq, it is moving in the direction of tolerance, openness, and individual freedom.
As for the Chinese people being collectively responsible for the actions of their government; that's just absurd. If that was true then the killings of arressor-nations civilians would be justifiable. It would mean that kidnapping and killing Americans in Iraq would be okay and that Israel's killing of Palestinian civilians would be okay. Unfortunately in the majority of the world's conflicts (which are almost all intra-state) defining the aggressor is very hard.
I don't defend what China does in Xinjiang. When I am in China I frequently have conversations with the Chinese people (both in Xinjiang and elsewhere) about what the government is doing to Xinjiang. I often parallel it with Israel's settlements in Palestine. Sometimes they react furiously, frequently they start to better sympathize with the Uighurs. I employ two techniques when I meet Chinese. Because I am fluent in Chinese I can convince most (who have never met Uighurs) that I am Uighur. If that doesn't work then I play the very useful card of convincing them that I am a zhongguotong (comrade of china.) Sometimes I mix them and get them to call me a zhongguotong before I "inform" them that I am Uighur. It gives my arguments a lot of credibility. I've done a lot more than talk -- but you don't seem very interested in considering me an equal so I won't even bother.
And don't call me American. When I moved back to the US in 1999 I hated it. The only way I could stand living here was to consider it a foreign nation. And as you know, since you are well traveled, you don't always approve of everything in the country you've visiting. But you find what there is to love and you focus on that. Like (I think) I said, I wouldn't run around Saudi Arabia disrespecting everyone because I didn't agree with what they believe.
Another note: I wrote this because there were some rediculously hostile towards China. If you tell someone that they should not go to China because you disagree with what the government does and you think that they're going to be thrown in jail then you're just stupid. And you're depriving them of a great experience.
And, for a finale, I'm not going to devalue your experience. I'm not going to tell you that your idea of China is warped by western stereotypes. I'm not going to insult you. I hope that is only a temporary difference between the two of us.
Americans say "no problem." I saw "no worries." I have no nationality.
And I use Ubuntu, too.
(oh yeah -- and why do you post as AC?)
feel free to email me -- or to AIM me (same as the beginning of my email)
one -- remember that there is progress. it is hard to see day to day but it is easy to see if you look back ten years. when i went to china for the first time in 92 it was a totally different place than it is now. hey -- they are having the first direct flights to taiwan in 55 years now!!
I lived next to Tibet. I've travelled to Xinjiang several times. Does the Chinese government treat the people there as they should be treated? No. Does that mean that every person's life is miserable? No. Some of my best friends in the world are Uighur.
The reality is that change takes time. If you want to help don't hate the Chinese -- support multi-track initiatives that will help support the establishment of the norms necessary for democracy to succeed sometime in the future. It is already happening in urban China. it will be a while before it gets to rural china and to the autonomous regions.
really man -- i'm not fighting you. i want equality for all people. i just want the slow and sure way. i don't bother hating; it's not worth the time.
www.cidcm.umd.edu -- if you want more info on multi-track stuff. And read that guy Azar -- needs-based government. it doesn't come from the top-down.
the difference is that the basic packages (in main) are much better maintained than the basic sid debian packages. that's because they are considered the stable packages. i can't remember which is which but i think universe in the next level of care by the ubuntu people. multiverse after that. the warty repos don't change much. they just get maintained for bugs, etc.
debian focuses on the stable branch. so those are very stable. but they are also dated. ubuntu is like a snapshot of sid which has been given some special care so it is stable. they also put in a lot of gnome work in as well.
i ran sid for years. this is much more stable. if you want to have a sid type experience in ubuntu then run hoary. then run whatever's next when hoary comes out.:)
Um... you probably didn't allow the multiverse and universe repositories. i didn't need to get ANYTHING from debian. just got transcode type things (which aren't in debian either.)
it works beautifully. i love my machine. installed it the same day warty came out. haven't changed yet.
You obviously didn't read the rest of the paragraph. If they are absolute (as defined by the UN) then we violate them because we don't provide a basic level of security (meaning food, shelter, etc) to all of our citizens.
There are some serious misunderstandings about China being voiced here -- even by people who have gone there. I can understand this. I spent seven years in China and saw many misunderstandings both by people who had just gotten there and by people who had lived there but never bothered to really immerse themselves in it.
China is a wonderful place. The people are nice. The culture is respect-worthy. The landscape is beautiful. The history is intoxicating.
Is there corruption, especially in the really rural areas? Yes. But if you understand the culture and the guanxi (relationships) system then you will have few problems. They ask for 15 RMB for something that is supposed to be free? Give it. Who cares? It's two bucks. Though usually, if you speak some chinese, you can demonstrate that you are a friend of the country and of its people and get around with no hassles.
As for the government's rejection of human rights -- things are relative. I don't approve of everything that the Chinese government does, but I also appreciate that there is an amount of ethnorelativism that needs to be engaged consciously. For instance, the UN definition of human rights includes a provision that allows everyone to live at a certain basic level -- something we know as welfare. But Americans wouldn't submit to that being a human right. Much of the world's declaration of human rights is not considered valid in the developing world because people see them as western-defined examples of human _needs_ -- something everyone accepts. (Read Azar. Human needs fit into three groups -- security (food, protection, water, etc), acceptance (for whatever group you identify with) and access to/participation in the institutions that allocate resources (markets or governments.)
As for Internet access -- it is easy to come by. It isn't the fastest stuff in the world (esp. outside of the big cities) but the blocks are nominal. You can get around them as well. Some methods are mentioned in this thread.
You shouldn't worry about having your freedoms repressed. Just be sensitive. Just like you wouldn't walk around Saudi Arabia (as a woman) wearing a bikini top screaming "you should be allowed to do this too!" you don't walk around China doing things that aren't culturally acceptable. It is disrespectful. And in China respect means a lot.
So I hope you do it. The best seven years of my life (so far) were those spent in China. It was a mind-opening experience. If you have any questions you can email me. (Just make sure that you write a good subject line so I don't click "junk.") Take care! Oh, and don't listen to anyone who says China sucks or is oppressive. The experience of individuals can be awful anywhere. But statistically speaking the vast majority of Chinese and of foreigners live happily.
I switched when I was 13 too. If it is possible for a 13 year old in 1997 to switch then anyone can. Hey -- my parents even switched a couple of years ago!
actually, the concern, as i understood it, was that we didn't want to risk astronauts lives to fix it. the chinese would cough up the money. probably would pay to have their astronauts trained in how to fix the thing.
I think the Chinese should say "hey, U.S. If you don't want the hubble anymore we'll take it. It is 20 year old technology so you can't be that worried about secret tech getting into our hands. We'll even give you 1 billion jiaozi for it."
Would make me happy. China would be able to get a benefit and the hubble would be able to survive. not to mention that a high publicity scientific partnership with china would help our international record.
always wanted to through in what i found on google:
* In 2000, the unemployment rate for workers aged 25 and over with a high school diploma was 3.5 percent; some college but no degree, 2.9 percent; associate degree, 2.3 percent; bachelor's degree, 1.8 percent; master's degree, 1.6 percent; professional or doctoral degree, 0.9 percent (Bureau of Labor Statistics n.d.; Dohm and Wyatt 2002).
* In 2000, median earnings of year-round, full-time workers aged 25 and over with a high school diploma were $28,800; some college but no degree, $32,400; associate degree, $35,400; bachelor's degree, $46,300; master's degree, $55,300; doctorate, $70,500; professional degree, $80,200 ("Education Pays" 2002).
Totally agree. That is why I was sure to say "financially" better. I don't think college is necessary to live a full and happy life. I just think it is foolhearty to say "i know people who are doing better than I am without any education. proves you don't need it." yes, it proves you don't NEED it but it doesn't prove that education doesn't promote such success.
first a note: you don't have to do what you studied in school for the schooling to be useful. We're not talking about vocational schools here. And even if they were, much of what you learn either gives you skills in other fields or at the very least gives you an appreciation of different areas (and how they relate).
quick google provided this: http://www.cete.org/acve/docgen.asp?tbl=mr&ID=115
# In 2000, the unemployment rate for workers aged 25 and over with a high school diploma was 3.5 percent; some college but no degree, 2.9 percent; associate degree, 2.3 percent; bachelor's degree, 1.8 percent; master's degree, 1.6 percent; professional or doctoral degree, 0.9 percent (Bureau of Labor Statistics n.d.; Dohm and Wyatt 2002). # In 2000, median earnings of year-round, full-time workers aged 25 and over with a high school diploma were $28,800; some college but no degree, $32,400; associate degree, $35,400; bachelor's degree, $46,300; master's degree, $55,300; doctorate, $70,500; professional degree, $80,200 ("Education Pays" 2002).
Look at the statistics. People who get college degrees do much better financially in life. There are plenty of exceptions, sure. But they are still only a fraction of the population. Suggestions like yours don't do anything but give people excuses not to advance themselves.
If they are self-motivated enough to learn what they have to learn without college then they don't need to hear it from you.
Um? The origin? There was none. Time had no beginning. Since there has been time in infinity there have been plenty of chances for the most random of things to occur. That includes what would have been necessary for the earliest organisms to be formed.
I find that many people can't imagine that there was no beginning but that's because of the culture we're raised in. Also, we might eventually find evidence that provides more light on the "how did that first jump into life happen." But we're not going to make it up. And we're certainly not going to say, "well, since we can't understand it presently it must have been created by intelligent design!"
Actually, it isn't an issue of majority/minority. Our constitution very clearly indicates the separation of church and state. Would the grandparent like it if satanists happened to be the majority in his county and decided that satanism was to be taught in his kid's school?
the point is that school is for learning. the home and church is for religion.
I agree. My T3 doesn't record right on my Sandisk SD card. i think it is because it can't transfer data quickly enough. (it's an old SD card, i'll admit)
I think that is the best response -- "could not win."
I grew up in China. If you can barely contain the people in Iraq you'd be stupid to think you could control China. They have 55 minorities. That's what happened when the Europeans first came. Difference groups wanted to vie for power. It only ended because some authoritarian groups managed it. Hell, China was even a democracy for a tiny bit.
I suspect China will make its way towards democracy. Or at least to better government. The people will eventually demand it. But people only demand things when they don't see things getting better or they are scared. The people in China can see very clearly that things are getting better. And while they are still scared, the first reason is the primary reason for most people's contentedness.
i have a great (female) friend who has many scars on her wrist. many were "nothing," but once her life was saved by someone who didn't think it was a joke and took her to the hospital after finding her unconscious, bleeding to death -- me. i wouldn't call slitting wrists a joke.
Slashdot Mirror
As I understand it, Longhorn is supposed to have vector-based widgets. If cairo can be integrated well enough so that this stuff is solidly in gtk and gnome in a year then we'll have beaten MS in a very obvious visible way.
I read somewhere that this will be especially useful for graphics artists and researchers because the huge displays they use make the icons almost useless. If everything was vector based then that wouldn't happen.
I'm excited. Can't wait to see this stuff in my default Ubuntu install.
Damn man. You sure do make a lot of assumptions for someone who who is telling ME to get off of MY high horse.
First of all -- I am a very atypical "diplomatic brat." I went to a bilingual school whose mission it was to make _global_ citizens. I despised my fellow diplomatic community for all of the reasons you stated.
I can answer some of your questions though.
Why is China given MFN-like status? For two reasons, primarily because it is extremely financially benefitial to the U.S. and others and also because, unlike Iraq, it is moving in the direction of tolerance, openness, and individual freedom.
As for the Chinese people being collectively responsible for the actions of their government; that's just absurd. If that was true then the killings of arressor-nations civilians would be justifiable. It would mean that kidnapping and killing Americans in Iraq would be okay and that Israel's killing of Palestinian civilians would be okay. Unfortunately in the majority of the world's conflicts (which are almost all intra-state) defining the aggressor is very hard.
I don't defend what China does in Xinjiang. When I am in China I frequently have conversations with the Chinese people (both in Xinjiang and elsewhere) about what the government is doing to Xinjiang. I often parallel it with Israel's settlements in Palestine. Sometimes they react furiously, frequently they start to better sympathize with the Uighurs. I employ two techniques when I meet Chinese. Because I am fluent in Chinese I can convince most (who have never met Uighurs) that I am Uighur. If that doesn't work then I play the very useful card of convincing them that I am a zhongguotong (comrade of china.) Sometimes I mix them and get them to call me a zhongguotong before I "inform" them that I am Uighur. It gives my arguments a lot of credibility. I've done a lot more than talk -- but you don't seem very interested in considering me an equal so I won't even bother.
And don't call me American. When I moved back to the US in 1999 I hated it. The only way I could stand living here was to consider it a foreign nation. And as you know, since you are well traveled, you don't always approve of everything in the country you've visiting. But you find what there is to love and you focus on that. Like (I think) I said, I wouldn't run around Saudi Arabia disrespecting everyone because I didn't agree with what they believe.
Another note: I wrote this because there were some rediculously hostile towards China. If you tell someone that they should not go to China because you disagree with what the government does and you think that they're going to be thrown in jail then you're just stupid. And you're depriving them of a great experience.
And, for a finale, I'm not going to devalue your experience. I'm not going to tell you that your idea of China is warped by western stereotypes. I'm not going to insult you. I hope that is only a temporary difference between the two of us.
Americans say "no problem." I saw "no worries." I have no nationality.
And I use Ubuntu, too.
(oh yeah -- and why do you post as AC?)
feel free to email me -- or to AIM me (same as the beginning of my email)
one -- remember that there is progress. it is hard to see day to day but it is easy to see if you look back ten years. when i went to china for the first time in 92 it was a totally different place than it is now. hey -- they are having the first direct flights to taiwan in 55 years now!!
I lived next to Tibet. I've travelled to Xinjiang several times. Does the Chinese government treat the people there as they should be treated? No. Does that mean that every person's life is miserable? No. Some of my best friends in the world are Uighur.
The reality is that change takes time. If you want to help don't hate the Chinese -- support multi-track initiatives that will help support the establishment of the norms necessary for democracy to succeed sometime in the future. It is already happening in urban China. it will be a while before it gets to rural china and to the autonomous regions.
really man -- i'm not fighting you. i want equality for all people. i just want the slow and sure way. i don't bother hating; it's not worth the time.
www.cidcm.umd.edu -- if you want more info on multi-track stuff. And read that guy Azar -- needs-based government. it doesn't come from the top-down.
so that is how i'm acting. what are you doing?
the difference is that the basic packages (in main) are much better maintained than the basic sid debian packages. that's because they are considered the stable packages. i can't remember which is which but i think universe in the next level of care by the ubuntu people. multiverse after that. the warty repos don't change much. they just get maintained for bugs, etc.
:)
debian focuses on the stable branch. so those are very stable. but they are also dated. ubuntu is like a snapshot of sid which has been given some special care so it is stable. they also put in a lot of gnome work in as well.
i ran sid for years. this is much more stable. if you want to have a sid type experience in ubuntu then run hoary. then run whatever's next when hoary comes out.
yes. they work very well. "perfectly" i'd say.
Um... you probably didn't allow the multiverse and universe repositories. i didn't need to get ANYTHING from debian. just got transcode type things (which aren't in debian either.)
it works beautifully. i love my machine. installed it the same day warty came out. haven't changed yet.
You obviously didn't read the rest of the paragraph. If they are absolute (as defined by the UN) then we violate them because we don't provide a basic level of security (meaning food, shelter, etc) to all of our citizens.
There are some serious misunderstandings about China being voiced here -- even by people who have gone there. I can understand this. I spent seven years in China and saw many misunderstandings both by people who had just gotten there and by people who had lived there but never bothered to really immerse themselves in it.
China is a wonderful place. The people are nice. The culture is respect-worthy. The landscape is beautiful. The history is intoxicating.
Is there corruption, especially in the really rural areas? Yes. But if you understand the culture and the guanxi (relationships) system then you will have few problems. They ask for 15 RMB for something that is supposed to be free? Give it. Who cares? It's two bucks. Though usually, if you speak some chinese, you can demonstrate that you are a friend of the country and of its people and get around with no hassles.
As for the government's rejection of human rights -- things are relative. I don't approve of everything that the Chinese government does, but I also appreciate that there is an amount of ethnorelativism that needs to be engaged consciously. For instance, the UN definition of human rights includes a provision that allows everyone to live at a certain basic level -- something we know as welfare. But Americans wouldn't submit to that being a human right. Much of the world's declaration of human rights is not considered valid in the developing world because people see them as western-defined examples of human _needs_ -- something everyone accepts. (Read Azar. Human needs fit into three groups -- security (food, protection, water, etc), acceptance (for whatever group you identify with) and access to/participation in the institutions that allocate resources (markets or governments.)
As for Internet access -- it is easy to come by. It isn't the fastest stuff in the world (esp. outside of the big cities) but the blocks are nominal. You can get around them as well. Some methods are mentioned in this thread.
You shouldn't worry about having your freedoms repressed. Just be sensitive. Just like you wouldn't walk around Saudi Arabia (as a woman) wearing a bikini top screaming "you should be allowed to do this too!" you don't walk around China doing things that aren't culturally acceptable. It is disrespectful. And in China respect means a lot.
So I hope you do it. The best seven years of my life (so far) were those spent in China. It was a mind-opening experience. If you have any questions you can email me. (Just make sure that you write a good subject line so I don't click "junk.") Take care! Oh, and don't listen to anyone who says China sucks or is oppressive. The experience of individuals can be awful anywhere. But statistically speaking the vast majority of Chinese and of foreigners live happily.
I'd say, yes, anyone _could_ learn them. I knew approx that much when I was 15 too (minus python but plus a few others.)
The grandparent was saying that it was too hard for people to learn. I'm saying that they're not too hard -- you just have to have the interest.
I switched when I was 13 too. If it is possible for a 13 year old in 1997 to switch then anyone can. Hey -- my parents even switched a couple of years ago!
actually, the concern, as i understood it, was that we didn't want to risk astronauts lives to fix it. the chinese would cough up the money. probably would pay to have their astronauts trained in how to fix the thing.
money is rarely the problem.
hey -- i love meat jiaozi as much as the next guy, but after a million they'd get old. don't you wnat some diversity?
I think the Chinese should say "hey, U.S. If you don't want the hubble anymore we'll take it. It is 20 year old technology so you can't be that worried about secret tech getting into our hands. We'll even give you 1 billion jiaozi for it."
Would make me happy. China would be able to get a benefit and the hubble would be able to survive. not to mention that a high publicity scientific partnership with china would help our international record.
always wanted to through in what i found on google:
* In 2000, the unemployment rate for workers aged 25 and over with a high school diploma was 3.5 percent; some college but no degree, 2.9 percent; associate degree, 2.3 percent; bachelor's degree, 1.8 percent; master's degree, 1.6 percent; professional or doctoral degree, 0.9 percent (Bureau of Labor Statistics n.d.; Dohm and Wyatt 2002).
* In 2000, median earnings of year-round, full-time workers aged 25 and over with a high school diploma were $28,800; some college but no degree, $32,400; associate degree, $35,400; bachelor's degree, $46,300; master's degree, $55,300; doctorate, $70,500; professional degree, $80,200 ("Education Pays" 2002).
Totally agree. That is why I was sure to say "financially" better. I don't think college is necessary to live a full and happy life. I just think it is foolhearty to say "i know people who are doing better than I am without any education. proves you don't need it." yes, it proves you don't NEED it but it doesn't prove that education doesn't promote such success.
first a note: you don't have to do what you studied in school for the schooling to be useful. We're not talking about vocational schools here. And even if they were, much of what you learn either gives you skills in other fields or at the very least gives you an appreciation of different areas (and how they relate).
quick google provided this: http://www.cete.org/acve/docgen.asp?tbl=mr&ID=115
# In 2000, the unemployment rate for workers aged 25 and over with a high school diploma was 3.5 percent; some college but no degree, 2.9 percent; associate degree, 2.3 percent; bachelor's degree, 1.8 percent; master's degree, 1.6 percent; professional or doctoral degree, 0.9 percent (Bureau of Labor Statistics n.d.; Dohm and Wyatt 2002).
# In 2000, median earnings of year-round, full-time workers aged 25 and over with a high school diploma were $28,800; some college but no degree, $32,400; associate degree, $35,400; bachelor's degree, $46,300; master's degree, $55,300; doctorate, $70,500; professional degree, $80,200 ("Education Pays" 2002).
Man --
Look at the statistics. People who get college degrees do much better financially in life. There are plenty of exceptions, sure. But they are still only a fraction of the population. Suggestions like yours don't do anything but give people excuses not to advance themselves.
If they are self-motivated enough to learn what they have to learn without college then they don't need to hear it from you.
Um? The origin? There was none. Time had no beginning. Since there has been time in infinity there have been plenty of chances for the most random of things to occur. That includes what would have been necessary for the earliest organisms to be formed.
I find that many people can't imagine that there was no beginning but that's because of the culture we're raised in. Also, we might eventually find evidence that provides more light on the "how did that first jump into life happen." But we're not going to make it up. And we're certainly not going to say, "well, since we can't understand it presently it must have been created by intelligent design!"
Actually, it isn't an issue of majority/minority. Our constitution very clearly indicates the separation of church and state. Would the grandparent like it if satanists happened to be the majority in his county and decided that satanism was to be taught in his kid's school?
the point is that school is for learning. the home and church is for religion.
I agree. My T3 doesn't record right on my Sandisk SD card. i think it is because it can't transfer data quickly enough. (it's an old SD card, i'll admit)
hey --
bu xuyao gei wo shou. wo zhidao. wo zai zhongguo zhangdade. daile 7 nian. ni shi cong zhongguo nali lai de? xianzai zhu zai nali?
but we did attack the south when it declared independence...
I think that is the best response -- "could not win."
I grew up in China. If you can barely contain the people in Iraq you'd be stupid to think you could control China. They have 55 minorities. That's what happened when the Europeans first came. Difference groups wanted to vie for power. It only ended because some authoritarian groups managed it. Hell, China was even a democracy for a tiny bit.
I suspect China will make its way towards democracy. Or at least to better government. The people will eventually demand it. But people only demand things when they don't see things getting better or they are scared. The people in China can see very clearly that things are getting better. And while they are still scared, the first reason is the primary reason for most people's contentedness.
i meant to say twice the number. sorry.
and i compliment your Bwahahaha. i wish everyone here in america realized that.
i have a great (female) friend who has many scars on her wrist. many were "nothing," but once her life was saved by someone who didn't think it was a joke and took her to the hospital after finding her unconscious, bleeding to death -- me. i wouldn't call slitting wrists a joke.