It's pointlessly wasteful, not to mention adding unnecessary time delays.
No. It has the point of reducing electric transmission losses in the cable, and increasing cable capacity. A useful production system does not necessarily need overnight deliveries.
note that you need *several dozen* hops
I was thinking a few more than that, but tomato/tomahto...
That's called gravity losses; they're pure energy waste. That's why you want to launch rockets at 4Gs instead of 1G, for example.
You're comparing rockets, which must use fuel to oppose gravity, to a climber on a cable that can maintain it's status with a set of brakes. There's no comparison. You launch the rocket at 4G so that it can get out of the gravity well before its fuel runs out. The climber can clamp onto the cable and hold its position indefinitely.
I seriously suggest you start running numbers.
Huh!? Dude, this is Slashdot!! I'm not required, or even expected, to know what I'm talking about. Do you want the other Slashdotters to think I'm weird! Jeesh!! 8*)
I was an active participant in the HighLift forum for most of a year.
And I slept at a Holiday Inn last night.
Your proposal is pointlessly wasteful (there is absolutely no need for such a convoluted system of "passing off payloads"), would take forever, and would greatly increase cable stresses if you want the trip to get done in a remotely realistic amount of time.
No it isn't. Yes there is. No it wouldn't. Define 'realistic'.
independent up/down cables with powerline interconnects (multicable) would work far more efficiently at power transfer and passing
Touche. You got me on that one. That approach makes much more sense, provided a way can be engineered for the cars to pass. The weight needs to stay balanced around the cable as a cantilevered load would cause all sorts of headaches. Redundant cables will still be a necessity for any sort of production system. It would be foolish to duplicate the Space Shuttle or the Marine's V-22 Osprey, where a single failure is catastrophic. I would say that 6 would be a minimum with 4 having the ability to carry the loads (1.5 is a typical safety factor in aviation).
Yes. I am. But the stess would not be as great as you suggest.
Down-bound has to slow putting more downward stress on the cable. At the same time, up-bound simply stops climbing, relieving downward stress on the cable. Delta stress would be near zero, and would be locallized.
After the swap, down-bound simply lets go to accellerate relieving some downward stress on the cable. Up-bound starts pulling, adding some extra stress. Once steady state speeds are attained, down-bound is braking while up-bound is climbing, there will be a net stress which a single cable pair would be sized to handle.
Comparitively, very little energy will be lost. Down-bound is generating electricity through regenerative braking (which is fed to upbound), and the generator is extremely far removed from the consumer. At the meeting, down-bound generates a extra amount which is stored in a battery pack/flywheel/??? or puts a little more energy on the line. Up-bound simply stops using electricity and allow gravity to bring it to a stop. After the swap, down-bound simply falls to accellerate. Up-bound will need the energy on the cable, plus its stored energy in the battery to get started. Once in steady-state, down-bound's braking serves most of up-bound's energy needs.
There will be losses, especially if up-bound is significantly heavier than down-bound, but most of the lost can be provided by:
?solar cells on the trains (especially efficient at higher altitudes, ie. space) ?wind generators on the trains (especially efficient at lower to medium altitudes, depending on your definition of lower to medium) ?ground based generators ?generators on the counter-balance
I am assuming slow speeds and long travel times, because I don't think you could run up and down a cable at supersonic speeds to begin with. High speeds on the cable will create a whole new set of headaches.
There are differences between the OS's which must be dealt with.
What has modifying standard email headers so that they are only readable in Outlook got to do with differences in OS'? My post wasn't an anti-MS flame. It was an anti-"OH, NO. We can't learn something different" flame, even when the tools at hand clearly can't handle the job or handle it so poorly that the results are anti-productive.
The GP advocates not training personnel, which leaves band-aiding the current solution which is known to be lacking as the only option.
So let the world add a.xxx domain to their tables. It's just a few lines of text...there all done......... See how much it affected me, here in the US. The VERY worst that would happen would be that the US TLD does not resolve.xxx and you get the dreaded "Address Not Found" error.
"Great weeping websites, Batman. What shall we do?"
I know what the REAL problem is. The portentious polliticians out there waving their porkers don't want to miss out on any of our great AMERICAN porn. That's right. Even the French ambassadors wish they all could be California girls, Baby! They want all their porn located in one neat little bundle.
Well, you can't have it. We created it, and we're going to keep it. Go get your own goats, and your own Natalie Portman. And you can't put our hot grits in your pants either. So there!!
Now. Can we talk about something that isn't stupid?
Got you beat. Mine runs on a 166Mhz Pentium. 128M RAM.
I don't run any server side scripts, and TimeWarner limits the upstream bandwidth to 50K, and most people aren't all that interested in what I have to say...so it's a perfect match actually.
No the most expensive thing is having your company dragged around by the nose with implementations that only half work. How much does it cost when a server goes down? If your people can't learn to use different tools then they are useless whether your business is brick laying, machining or building networks.
ferreting out things that don't quite work the same way as in a Windows environment
You mean things like proprietary EMAIL protocols? Or maybe you were referring to the Windows propensity to go belly-up under virus attack? I'm not sure what your innuendo is reffering to exactly, so could you please expand on the FUD?
Elevators would have to pass each other. You'd have to have multiple running at a single time, transferring energy.
You're going to HAVE to run multiple cables, for redundancy sake, but one cable should be able to support one train. If you have 10 cables, run 5 'trains' on it (this provides the ability to replace a cable without interrupting service). Each train is a climber with 6 slots and carries only 3 capsules. Decending trains feed power to climbing ones. When they meet, they simply swap capsules and reverse directions.
This is the production version. The initial 'research' version will be one car and one cable with one capsule (heh, gotta start somewhere).
Personally, I have mixed opinions on this one. On general principles I think the US should be forced to relinquish absolute control, particularly since it has demonstrated a willingness to abuse the position by effectively vetoing the.xxx TLD.
You need to get those emotions unmixed. As an American who is a staunch Bush supporter, I can say clearly that the US should NOT be forced to relinquish absolute control, because I DOES NOT HAVE absolute control!!
I view the people claiming such to be much like the dog in the electric shock experiment. After enduring the shock for endless hours, they finally just accept it and will not attempt to evade it, even when a exit is clear.
The Internet and the DNS system in PARTICULAR does not allow for any entity to be in control of another. The structure simply does not support such control. Anyone who claims otherwise does not understand TCP/IP or hierarchal systems.
Economic disruption? BULLSHIT! The worst that would happen if each country took control of their own CC (like they damn well should) would be that Frenchmen would have to type in Walmart.fr instead of Walmart.com (and Walmart would have to spend another $30 or so for the French domain registration).
Imagine what could happen to a country like Estonia if someone pulled their root server plug.
If they have set up there DNS servers correctly, noone but a few sys-admins would notice anything at all. The response of the sysadmins would be, "Well, would you look at that?"
Please learn SOMETHING about DNS before posting hysterical drivel. Domain resolution is a hierchal process. A TLD going down should have no immediate, and very little longterm impact. Why didn't Estonia reference a backup server located France, India, ? Estonia already has complete control over the Estonian CC domain (es? Sorry, I don't have the cc domain for every country memorized), and could set their servers to simply not resolve anything except CC's for countries they liked. An Estonian admin could do it all in less time than it would take to eat lunch.
In short, this whole brouhaha is a symbolic 'chip-on-the-shoulder' pissing match between some politicians, with absolutely no real world consequence except some pompous strutting for the local constituents.
Microsoft have been incredibly slow to realise that Windows can always go back to being what it was when it first got really successful at version 3.1, a GUI.
That's because Microsoft didn't become spectacularly successful by marketing a extraordinary GUI that everyone wanted. Their 'success' hinged on a stranglehold on the channel and then locking out the competition.
There's no way for them to go back to that situation.
I can't remember all the details, but it boiled down to the Navy needed a new ship, and they could choose between two shipyards, say Norfolk and Boston. It would be more expensive to build it in Norfolk, but they chose it anyway. Turns out that if they didn't build there, then the shipyard would have to shut down. Then the Navy would only have one operational shipyard for any future projects. It was decided that it would be cheaper to use the more expensive yard in the long run.
The government often subsidizes US farmers. The thinking is that if they aren't subsidized in bad years, they won't be around in the good years, and eventually everyone will starve.
I don't know if you'll read this, but my experience is that modern machinist are clueless to things that were taken for granted even 50yrs ago. Hell, to hear them tell it, you wouldn't think there's any way to join aluminum except with TIG. My uncle tries to argue that there is no way to weld with gas ("You're just brazing," he says). Then there's this dolt that couldn't be bothered to pick up a machinist's handbook from the turn of the century.
A seasoned technician knows intuitively that a new tool does not necessarily obsolete the old. A new technique does not rule out the old techniques. Anyone that doesn't grasp this is an obvious newbie. I would say this guy is more likely a button pusher than a machinist.
No one is disagreeing on the applicability of isotope comparison, but obviously you didn't bother to read the Wikipedia article, so I'll quote for you:
Mars meteorites include three rare groups of achondritic (stony) meteorites (16 objects total) with isotope ratios that are said to be consistent with each other and inconsistent with the Earth. It should be pointed out, however, that the isotope ratios do not actually match Mars ratios especially well, to the extent that Mars ratios are known, although they do differ substantially from Earth isotope ratios and from what is known of Lunar ratios.
"It doesn't match what we know of Earth rocks, so IT MUST BE FROM MARS!!" vs...an asteroid... Mercury...Io...???...no one REALLY knows; therefore, ipso facto, and following good grammar rules, they made the shit up.
Perhaps you get your idea of what 'science' is from the cable tv network.
It's funny how we seem to get most upset when it's people who have almost nothing doing the scamming. Yet when rich folk do scamming, like the Savings & Loan scandal, Enron, Worldcom, and so on, people don't get so upset.
Tell me again what Martha Stewart was doing in jail?
American's are in for a rough ride when China becomes the next superpower and greed is a major reason why.
This seems to imply that the Chinese population isn't greedy. Maybe modify the sentence to "China becomes one of the next superpowers"? If greed is the sole driver, the best they could hope to do is match American greed.
The customers are the ones who put crappy software into service and never hold companies or programmers accountable for the disastrous results. How many butt-in-the-air versions of Windows has corporations pressed into service in place of more secure solutions because of the 'ease of use' and lower 'TCO' arguments?
When customers are willing to buy or, even worse, actually prefer 'good enough' solutions, all they ever get are 'good enough' solutions.
It is very uncommon, and the idea that they're from Mars is a VERY tenous idea at best. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_meteorite the idea is basically, "It doesn't look like it is from here, IT MUST BE FROM MARS."
Not exactly what I'd call science. I'd tend more to calling it "making shit up".
While you're right about metals work hardening, you're wrong about how often it happens. Quite frankly, it doesn't unless you're either extremely stupid or even more so insane.
Or you're working a part by hand. Or the part does duty in a high vibration environment (copper fuel line are verboten on small airplanes for just this reason). Or you bend a heat treated nose gear on a hard landing and then try to bend it back into place.
It doesn't happen often in a machine shop, unless the machinist is explicity trying to do it, but metalsmiths all over the world take advantage/try to avoid work hardening in various situations.
BTW, a technical definition used in a machine shop may not be the common usage in the rest of the world. To the general world that I've been exposed to, work hardening is any increase in the hardness/brittleness derived from the stretching and shrinking involved in getting the metal to the desired shape. In this aspect, the gp is not necessarily off base. A stainless steel slapper is often used to 'polish' aluminum fairings, and the aluminum is harder after the process.
Unfortunately, that's nowhere near true for CityDesk. We benefit from using libraries that are freely available on Windows (like the Jet multiuser ACID database engine and the DHTML edit control) for which there are no equivalents on the Macintosh.
Slashdotfish translation:
We've taken the free hit from Microsoft, and now we have our head buried so far up Bill Gate's butt that all we see is brown.
Really, this quote has to be the silliest excuse I've ever read for why it would be economically infeasible to develope crossplatform apps. There are a lot of good reasons why crossplatform is more expensive, but "Microsoft gave us an editor control and database engine...FOR FREE" has got to be near the bottom.
Slashdot Mirror
I don't understand. Is he saying that he needs shock treatments? It appears that most psychiatrist would agree.
It's pointlessly wasteful, not to mention adding unnecessary time delays.
No. It has the point of reducing electric transmission losses in the cable, and increasing cable capacity. A useful production system does not necessarily need overnight deliveries.
note that you need *several dozen* hops
I was thinking a few more than that, but tomato/tomahto...
That's called gravity losses; they're pure energy waste. That's why you want to launch rockets at 4Gs instead of 1G, for example.
You're comparing rockets, which must use fuel to oppose gravity, to a climber on a cable that can maintain it's status with a set of brakes. There's no comparison. You launch the rocket at 4G so that it can get out of the gravity well before its fuel runs out. The climber can clamp onto the cable and hold its position indefinitely.
I seriously suggest you start running numbers.
Huh!? Dude, this is Slashdot!! I'm not required, or even expected, to know what I'm talking about. Do you want the other Slashdotters to think I'm weird! Jeesh!! 8*)
I was an active participant in the HighLift forum for most of a year.
And I slept at a Holiday Inn last night.
Your proposal is pointlessly wasteful (there is absolutely no need for such a convoluted system of "passing off payloads"), would take forever, and would greatly increase cable stresses if you want the trip to get done in a remotely realistic amount of time.
No it isn't. Yes there is. No it wouldn't. Define 'realistic'.
independent up/down cables with powerline interconnects (multicable) would work far more efficiently at power transfer and passing
Touche. You got me on that one. That approach makes much more sense, provided a way can be engineered for the cars to pass. The weight needs to stay balanced around the cable as a cantilevered load would cause all sorts of headaches. Redundant cables will still be a necessity for any sort of production system. It would be foolish to duplicate the Space Shuttle or the Marine's V-22 Osprey, where a single failure is catastrophic. I would say that 6 would be a minimum with 4 having the ability to carry the loads (1.5 is a typical safety factor in aviation).
Yes. I am. But the stess would not be as great as you suggest.
Down-bound has to slow putting more downward stress on the cable. At the same time, up-bound simply stops climbing, relieving downward stress on the cable. Delta stress would be near zero, and would be locallized.
After the swap, down-bound simply lets go to accellerate relieving some downward stress on the cable. Up-bound starts pulling, adding some extra stress. Once steady state speeds are attained, down-bound is braking while up-bound is climbing, there will be a net stress which a single cable pair would be sized to handle.
Comparitively, very little energy will be lost. Down-bound is generating electricity through regenerative braking (which is fed to upbound), and the generator is extremely far removed from the consumer. At the meeting, down-bound generates a extra amount which is stored in a battery pack/flywheel/??? or puts a little more energy on the line. Up-bound simply stops using electricity and allow gravity to bring it to a stop. After the swap, down-bound simply falls to accellerate. Up-bound will need the energy on the cable, plus its stored energy in the battery to get started. Once in steady-state, down-bound's braking serves most of up-bound's energy needs.
There will be losses, especially if up-bound is significantly heavier than down-bound, but most of the lost can be provided by:
?solar cells on the trains (especially efficient at higher altitudes, ie. space)
?wind generators on the trains (especially efficient at lower to medium altitudes, depending on your definition of lower to medium)
?ground based generators
?generators on the counter-balance
I am assuming slow speeds and long travel times, because I don't think you could run up and down a cable at supersonic speeds to begin with. High speeds on the cable will create a whole new set of headaches.
There are differences between the OS's which must be dealt with.
What has modifying standard email headers so that they are only readable in Outlook got to do with differences in OS'? My post wasn't an anti-MS flame. It was an anti-"OH, NO. We can't learn something different" flame, even when the tools at hand clearly can't handle the job or handle it so poorly that the results are anti-productive.
The GP advocates not training personnel, which leaves band-aiding the current solution which is known to be lacking as the only option.
So let the world add a .xxx domain to their tables. It's just a few lines of text...there all done... ... ... .xxx and you get the dreaded "Address Not Found" error.
See how much it affected me, here in the US. The VERY worst that would happen would be that the US TLD does not resolve
"Great weeping websites, Batman. What shall we do?"
I know what the REAL problem is. The portentious polliticians out there waving their porkers don't want to miss out on any of our great AMERICAN porn. That's right. Even the French ambassadors wish they all could be California girls, Baby! They want all their porn located in one neat little bundle.
Well, you can't have it. We created it, and we're going to keep it. Go get your own goats, and your own Natalie Portman. And you can't put our hot grits in your pants either. So there!!
Now. Can we talk about something that isn't stupid?
Got you beat. Mine runs on a 166Mhz Pentium. 128M RAM.
I don't run any server side scripts, and TimeWarner limits the upstream bandwidth to 50K, and most people aren't all that interested in what I have to say...so it's a perfect match actually.
No the most expensive thing is having your company dragged around by the nose with implementations that only half work. How much does it cost when a server goes down? If your people can't learn to use different tools then they are useless whether your business is brick laying, machining or building networks.
ferreting out things that don't quite work the same way as in a Windows environment
You mean things like proprietary EMAIL protocols? Or maybe you were referring to the Windows propensity to go belly-up under virus attack? I'm not sure what your innuendo is reffering to exactly, so could you please expand on the FUD?
Elevators would have to pass each other. You'd have to have multiple running at a single time, transferring energy.
You're going to HAVE to run multiple cables, for redundancy sake, but one cable should be able to support one train. If you have 10 cables, run 5 'trains' on it (this provides the ability to replace a cable without interrupting service). Each train is a climber with 6 slots and carries only 3 capsules. Decending trains feed power to climbing ones. When they meet, they simply swap capsules and reverse directions.
This is the production version. The initial 'research' version will be one car and one cable with one capsule (heh, gotta start somewhere).
Personally, I have mixed opinions on this one. On general principles I think the US should be forced to relinquish absolute control, particularly since it has demonstrated a willingness to abuse the position by effectively vetoing the .xxx TLD.
You need to get those emotions unmixed. As an American who is a staunch Bush supporter, I can say clearly that the US should NOT be forced to relinquish absolute control, because I DOES NOT HAVE absolute control!!
I view the people claiming such to be much like the dog in the electric shock experiment. After enduring the shock for endless hours, they finally just accept it and will not attempt to evade it, even when a exit is clear.
The Internet and the DNS system in PARTICULAR does not allow for any entity to be in control of another. The structure simply does not support such control. Anyone who claims otherwise does not understand TCP/IP or hierarchal systems.
Economic disruption? BULLSHIT! The worst that would happen if each country took control of their own CC (like they damn well should) would be that Frenchmen would have to type in Walmart.fr instead of Walmart.com (and Walmart would have to spend another $30 or so for the French domain registration).
Imagine what could happen to a country like Estonia if someone pulled their root server plug.
If they have set up there DNS servers correctly, noone but a few sys-admins would notice anything at all. The response of the sysadmins would be, "Well, would you look at that?"
Please learn SOMETHING about DNS before posting hysterical drivel. Domain resolution is a hierchal process. A TLD going down should have no immediate, and very little longterm impact. Why didn't Estonia reference a backup server located France, India, ? Estonia already has complete control over the Estonian CC domain (es? Sorry, I don't have the cc domain for every country memorized), and could set their servers to simply not resolve anything except CC's for countries they liked. An Estonian admin could do it all in less time than it would take to eat lunch.
In short, this whole brouhaha is a symbolic 'chip-on-the-shoulder' pissing match between some politicians, with absolutely no real world consequence except some pompous strutting for the local constituents.
Microsoft have been incredibly slow to realise that Windows can always go back to being what it was when it first got really successful at version 3.1, a GUI.
That's because Microsoft didn't become spectacularly successful by marketing a extraordinary GUI that everyone wanted. Their 'success' hinged on a stranglehold on the channel and then locking out the competition.
There's no way for them to go back to that situation.
I can't remember all the details, but it boiled down to the Navy needed a new ship, and they could choose between two shipyards, say Norfolk and Boston. It would be more expensive to build it in Norfolk, but they chose it anyway. Turns out that if they didn't build there, then the shipyard would have to shut down. Then the Navy would only have one operational shipyard for any future projects. It was decided that it would be cheaper to use the more expensive yard in the long run.
The government often subsidizes US farmers. The thinking is that if they aren't subsidized in bad years, they won't be around in the good years, and eventually everyone will starve.
Maybe some Chinese officials think likewise.
I don't know if you'll read this, but my experience is that modern machinist are clueless to things that were taken for granted even 50yrs ago. Hell, to hear them tell it, you wouldn't think there's any way to join aluminum except with TIG. My uncle tries to argue that there is no way to weld with gas ("You're just brazing," he says). Then there's this dolt that couldn't be bothered to pick up a machinist's handbook from the turn of the century.
A seasoned technician knows intuitively that a new tool does not necessarily obsolete the old. A new technique does not rule out the old techniques. Anyone that doesn't grasp this is an obvious newbie. I would say this guy is more likely a button pusher than a machinist.
No one is disagreeing on the applicability of isotope comparison, but obviously you didn't bother to read the Wikipedia article, so I'll quote for you:
Mars meteorites include three rare groups of achondritic (stony) meteorites (16 objects total) with isotope ratios that are said to be consistent with each other and inconsistent with the Earth. It should be pointed out, however, that the isotope ratios do not actually match Mars ratios especially well, to the extent that Mars ratios are known, although they do differ substantially from Earth isotope ratios and from what is known of Lunar ratios.
"It doesn't match what we know of Earth rocks, so IT MUST BE FROM MARS!!" vs...an asteroid... Mercury...Io...???...no one REALLY knows; therefore, ipso facto, and following good grammar rules, they made the shit up.
Perhaps you get your idea of what 'science' is from the cable tv network.
It's funny how we seem to get most upset when it's people who have almost nothing doing the scamming. Yet when rich folk do scamming, like the Savings & Loan scandal, Enron, Worldcom, and so on, people don't get so upset.
Tell me again what Martha Stewart was doing in jail?
American's are in for a rough ride when China becomes the next superpower and greed is a major reason why.
This seems to imply that the Chinese population isn't greedy. Maybe modify the sentence to "China becomes one of the next superpowers"? If greed is the sole driver, the best they could hope to do is match American greed.
How about neither?
The customers are the ones who put crappy software into service and never hold companies or programmers accountable for the disastrous results. How many butt-in-the-air versions of Windows has corporations pressed into service in place of more secure solutions because of the 'ease of use' and lower 'TCO' arguments?
When customers are willing to buy or, even worse, actually prefer 'good enough' solutions, all they ever get are 'good enough' solutions.
You obviously don't know how the good ol' boy networks operate.
It is very uncommon, and the idea that they're from Mars is a VERY tenous idea at best. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_meteorite the idea is basically, "It doesn't look like it is from here, IT MUST BE FROM MARS."
Not exactly what I'd call science. I'd tend more to calling it "making shit up".
All planets (like our own) which have a dynamic liquid core have magnetic fields.
All of 'em, huh? You think that maybe we might be going a little bit beyond what we know? Hmm?
While you're right about metals work hardening, you're wrong about how often it happens. Quite frankly, it doesn't unless you're either extremely stupid or even more so insane.
Or you're working a part by hand. Or the part does duty in a high vibration environment (copper fuel line are verboten on small airplanes for just this reason). Or you bend a heat treated nose gear on a hard landing and then try to bend it back into place.
It doesn't happen often in a machine shop, unless the machinist is explicity trying to do it, but metalsmiths all over the world take advantage/try to avoid work hardening in various situations.
BTW, a technical definition used in a machine shop may not be the common usage in the rest of the world. To the general world that I've been exposed to, work hardening is any increase in the hardness/brittleness derived from the stretching and shrinking involved in getting the metal to the desired shape. In this aspect, the gp is not necessarily off base. A stainless steel slapper is often used to 'polish' aluminum fairings, and the aluminum is harder after the process.
Unfortunately, that's nowhere near true for CityDesk. We benefit from using libraries that are freely available on Windows (like the Jet multiuser ACID database engine and the DHTML edit control) for which there are no equivalents on the Macintosh.
Slashdotfish translation:
We've taken the free hit from Microsoft, and now we have our head buried so far up Bill Gate's butt that all we see is brown.
Really, this quote has to be the silliest excuse I've ever read for why it would be economically infeasible to develope crossplatform apps. There are a lot of good reasons why crossplatform is more expensive, but "Microsoft gave us an editor control and database engine...FOR FREE" has got to be near the bottom.
There's always something, isn't there?
"It'll never happen until there is a replacement for Word..."
There's a replacement for Word.
"It'll never happen until there is a replacement for Office..."
There's a replacement for Office.
"It'll never happen until there is a replacement for Exchange..."
(See other post for the extensive list)
What's next of you list of "can't be replaced"s
The NERVA is probably impossible politically,
Right now, yes. But give the Indians, Japanese and Chinese just a few more years...There'll be another Space Race in my lifetime (fingers crossed).