Father of Wiki Quits MS, Moves to Eclipse

linumax writes "Microsoft has lost one of its high-profile hires to an open-source consortium. Mike Milinkovich, executive director of the Eclipse Foundation, announced on Monday that Ward Cunningham is leaving Microsoft to join the staff of the open-source tool consortium. Cunningham's new title is Director of Committer Community Development.Cunningham, the father of the Wiki concept, joined Microsoft about two years ago. At Microsoft, he was not involved directly in social-networking-software development. Instead, Cunningham worked as an architect with the company's Patterns & Practices Team."

Comments

Father

[smvp6459]

Boy how I'd like to father a wiki.

Re:Father

[Red Flayer]

" Boy how I'd like to father a wiki."

I'd rather father a wookie. Imagine the birth announcements!

Re:Father

[Andrewkov]

It would kinda make you wonder who you're wife's been sleeping with, though.

Re:Father

[Red Flayer]

"It would kinda make you wonder who you're wife's been sleeping with, though."

My wife is the wookie, you insensitive clod!

Re:Father

[Schemat1c]

Boy how I'd like to father a wiki."

I'd rather father a wookie. Imagine the birth announcements!

How about a Wookie wiki including sections on the Kon-Tiki and Riki Tiki Tavi.

My head hurts.

Re:Father

[NanoGator]

"I'd rather father a wookie."

I can arrange that. You could use a good ....!

Re:Father

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd rather father a wookie.

Kind of like this guy's dad did?
The offspring is a frickin gorilla.

Re:Father

[mccabem]

There's already a Tiki Wiki, you know..

Re:Father

[chris_mahan]

I know French women don't shave their armpits but this is getting ridiculous.

Re:Father

[Anonymous Coward]

> Boy how I'd like to father a wiki.

He said "WIKI" not "WOOKIE", you sicko!

Wikipedia

[WebfishUK]

What was he doing there anyway?

Re:Wikipedia

[metamatic]

What was he doing there anyway?

Oh, you know... Evil.

The usual.

Re:Wikipedia

[Anonymous Coward]

Wikipedia != wiki.

Ward invented the wiki idea in general.

Re:Wikipedia

[frank_adrian314159]

What was he doing there anyway?

What most of us do every day... Trading his time and effort for a pay check.

Re:Wikipedia

[Foofoobar]

Let's hope he didn't have to trade his credibility in the process. Microsoft tends to be like a Roach motel in that sense; credibility checks in but it don't check out.

Re:Wikipedia

[Anonymous Coward]

Note he didn't start Wikipedia, he came up with the idea of wiki. Ward's Wiki is the Portland Pattern repository which is always a very educational read for software practitioners.

Re:Wikipedia

[dar]

That doesn't seem to have happened since he has another gig going now.

Re:Wikipedia

[Anonymous Coward]

What was he doing there anyway?

Easy, he was kept safe and sound and off the streets.. do you think Microsoft really likes all these smart people working for other companies?

I wonder how many hands his work went through before they finally dropped it in the shredder.. "Hey thanks Ward, this research will really help us out *snicker* now we've got a project for you that should keep you occupied for at least 2 years!"

About time

[Sheepdot]

With all these individuals leaving Microsoft for open source or other commercial ventures, does anyone suspect maybe there is about to be a shareholder shakeup of upper-level management? It would appear to me that Microsoft has gotten far too rigid, top-heavy, and doesn't provide autonomy at the development level anymore. Anyone else get the same idea based on the staff that are leaving?

Re:About time

[jtwJGuevara]

I don't forsee current shareholders giving a flying hoot about individuals leaving as long as the bottom line numbers remain prosperous... and you know as well as I that with all the successful product lines and forced upgrades, the bottom line isn't going to turn south anytime in the interim future.

In fact, MS shareholders should be happier than ever since they just recently received a whopping dividend payment.

Of course, as an individual investor, I wouldn't buy Microsoft for a long term investment for the very reasons you stated. Its potential for growth isn't attractive any longer either.

Re:About time

[Deinhard]

Not likely. Despite the exodus of high-profile indidivuals such as Cunningham, an organization such as Microsoft (or Apple or IBM, &c.) have constant turnover. In some cases it is from disgruntled employees, but in others it is simply a desire to expand one's horizons and move on to different things.

I suspect that there are more "former Microsoft employees" than there are "current Microsoft employees."

Re:About time

[TheWanderingHermit]

In fact, MS shareholders should be happier than ever since they just recently received a whopping dividend payment.

I don't know about that. I learned investing from my Father, who has literally made several million, just since his retirement. While dividends are nice, there are problems with them. They're taxed when they come out, whereas a rising stock price is only taxed when it is sold. So even if you use a DRIP so you never actually see the dividend, just the new shares it purchases, you still get a yearly tax. Dividends can be a big help if you are retired, or otherwise using dividend income as a primary source of support, but in terms of investing, they are not always as nice as a stock price that constantly goes up -- which is something MS Stock hasn't done much of for a while.

You're right -- it isn't a good idea for a long term investment, which is about the only kind I make. (I've found turnover can be fun, but after fees and taxes, long term investments generally do better once you see past the next year or two.)

Re:About time

[Sheepdot]

I suspect that there are more "former Microsoft employees" than there are "current Microsoft employees."

But isn't that the breaking point then?

Think of it like this. Microsoft has, for two decades now, shown itself as the bright younge upstart. But the truth is they are coming to maturity now. They aren't "cool" anymore. iPods are "cool". Facebook is "cool". Google is "cool". Microsoft is like the youngest uncle at the family renions, too young to know that he's too old to be hanging out with the kids anymore.

IMHO we're likely to see Ballmer have a heart attack or other adverse health issue during a promotional gig (don't laugh, remember how he required vocal chord surgery after yelling Windows?) and shareholders will ask him to step down for safety concerns. His problem is that he doesn't realize what Microsoft is. IBM didn't realize who it was till Lou Gerstner defined it.

Re:About time

[mwvdlee]

I wonder; if somebody leaves Microsoft, do they get their soul back?

Re:About time

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

Whenever one of these guys leave MS, there is anouther fresh face right out of school with a masters in something waiting in the wings.

Re:About time

[pete6677]

I suspect there hasn't been much autonomy among developers for a long time. Look at how most of Microsoft product are designed. It's clear that the marketing department makes all product decision and engineers just get to figure out how to meet their demands. For example, why does Outlook inform me it is dangerous to display "active content"? What the hell is active content? In my case, it was apparently a font that someone used. Would any technical person use such a stupid, generic, meaningless phrase as "active content"?

Re:About time

[Anonymous Coward]

Absolutely, souls are held in escrow and are returned as long as the employee has fulfilled at least two full years of employment. Those leaving the company after less than two years receive back a fraction of their soul proportional to the length of time they worked.

Re:About time

[Daniel Dvorkin]

Microsoft is like the youngest uncle at the family renions, too young to know that he's too old to be hanging out with the kids anymore.

You just made my day with that line. Thanks.

Re:About time

[hutchike]

Is that what the "Silo" storage concept was all about? A way to store souls in escrow? I don't think NTFS has a native soul-storage capability, although there's probably a driver somewhere... I wonder what would happen if the M$ soul-server crashed? Truly a BSOD!

Re:About time

[Ucklak]

MS doesn't have geek appeal like it did in the 80's and 90's. Those masters want to work with Google. If they can't get a good paying job, they might settle for Microsoft.

Re:About time

[TheWanderingHermit]

The more I think about it, the more I wonder. While I stick by my other response, I think many people buying MS stock are doing so (or did so) on advice from a broker or because it was "the thing" to do. While it is not true in every case, in many cases, you're talking about sheep following a trend. There are probably a good number of stock holders who aren't thinking long term. I'm sure many bailed when it stopped going up. Now there are those who will see only the dividend and focus just on that -- not on growth or anything else. So, while my feelings on dividends haven't changed, my thoughts about how nearsighted the vision and how shallow the understanding of most investers is remind me that many don't make decisions on investing by thinking it through thoroughly.

Re:About time

[wuillians]

People don't lose their souls for working at MS.

Re:About time

[Deinhard]

I'll agree to your points about Microsoft. Growing up, I had just that sort of an uncle. He has tried to keep up with the "younger generation" and has done an admirable job of up. Now, twenty years on, he's no longer the "cool uncle" but the uncle that we go to for advice.

I'll also agree to your points about Ballmer. There should be a /. poll "Most Likely to Blow a Gasket During a Presentation." Ballmer would certainly win, hands down.

However, I don't think that my comment former v. current employees in any way validates your original posit. Taken to the extreme, you can also say that there are more "dead Americans" today than there are "live Americans." The point is that just because Microsoft loses employees doesn't mean that the death knell is sounding.

Re:About time

[rho]

It used to be that dividends were the norm. Then came the awful idea that "if the company doesn't know what to do with its profits, there must be something wrong with them". This was the idea that fueled stock options and an incessant drumbeat to keep those quarterly reports positive and upbeat.

When a company pays out profits to shareholders, then the stock is acting in a "classical" stock sense. The company is then working for its shareholders. When a company doesn't pay dividends, and the whole value of the company to the shareholder is whether the stock will rise in value, then you get into dangerous territory where stock manipulation is a key skill, rather than business acumen and "knowing thy customer".

As for taxing dividends, IIRC, the nasty Republicans want to cut the dividends tax to zero. That encourages companies to offer dividends. That encourages investors to look at companies that pay dividends. All of the above encourages business practices that are less stock market oriented and more investor oriented. That is, it's a Good Thing. Now you're investing in a company because it produces a product that sells well, instead of investing in a company because you think you can fool somebody else into buying from you at a higher price.

There's room for the latter in a modern market, but the former is much less fraught with criminal or unethical doings.

Re:About time

[seriesrover]

no, a small handful of high(ish) profile, OSS oriented, people leaving in a company of tens of thousands isn't even close to being significant enough. The people that buy MS products aren't doing it because of some moral crusade for\against MS - they do it because they need\want the products. What you've got to remember is that the anti-MS movement only covers a fairly small proportion of MS's marketbase.

People have predicited MS downfall for quite a few years and so I'll wait for it to actually happen before I believe it - but MS is a matured company and it has to learn to adapt appropriately, very similar to IBM.

Re:About time

[snitmo]

Shareholders usually consider being a mature company a good thing. They think that since this company has done well for the last 10 years, it will probably do well in the next 10 years, etc. From their perspective, it's not a breaking point at all. Consider GE, IBM.

I personally don't want to work for old or big companies, but that's from an engineer's perspective.

Re:About time

[hoggoth]

> MS shareholders should be happier than ever since they just recently received a whopping dividend payment.

As an MS shareholder, I can assure you the whopping dividend was no big deal. I got a check and at the same time my MS stock value dropped by the EXACT same amount of my check.
The market adjusted immediately to the payment and loss of cash from MS's war chest.

The only difference is I have to pay tax on the dividend. I don't have to pay tax on the stock until I sell it.

Re:About time

[daeley]

People don't lose their souls for working at MS.

You're correct: you have to have already lost it want to work there in the first place.

Re:About time

[tolkienfan]

IIRC Only the Office and Windows divisions are consistently profitable.

And I don't see that continuing unabated.

If Microsoft are going to increase their value, they will have to pull something spectacular, like pwning another market. Maybe that's why their going after media.

Re:About time

[crawling_chaos]

I believe that J.P. Morgan was of the belief that the only information a company owed to its stockholders was the dividend it could afford to pay. If the investors were not happy with the divend they could either a.) convince enough shareholders of the fact and elect new Directors, or b.) sell the stock.

There are obvious problems with this model, but the kind of shenanigans Enron engaged in would have been neatly killed if they were required to provide a dividend. Cash leaving the company is a lot harder to forge than an entry in a balance sheet.

Re:About time

[elemental23]

I got mine back when I left Verislime, so I'd say yes. How long it takes depends, of course, on what they did for MS.

Re:About time

[Anonymous Coward]

Ever been to Redmond? No? Didn't think so.

Re:About time

[Sheepdot]

Yeah, I believe that Microsoft will work its way out of the rut its in. I do think that Ballmer isn't likely to be the one to pull it out of it, though. I mean, this is a guy that is the longest Microsoft employee. He's too afraid when things get worse to try totally new ideas, and understandably so.

I think it's likely that he may pass off the company to someone that *can* revive it. We'll have to see.

Re:About time

[omyar_hunt]

They must pass four tests, each more devious than the last. The first, an unsolveable puzzle in the dungeon of Redmond. The second, a riddle given by the black granite face of the Ogre of Northrend. The third, a random encounter with a 13th level creature from the DnD monster manual, and lastly, the task of stealing fire from Bill Gate's Obsidian Tower.

This Just In

[the darn]

Ballmer vows,"I'm going to f**king KILL the Eclipse Foundation!"

Re:This Just In

[c0l0]

Poor Steve, doing such echausting things like jumping around and screaming like a monkey all the time. :-(

If he used a UNIX-like system, however, he could at least do parts of his job (or hobby?) with much greater ease - `killall eclipse`, for instance. Granted, that's not the foundation itself, but better for a start than nothing at all!

Re:This Just In

[xtracto]

Yeah, fortunately, when Ballmer told Ward "just tell me it is not Google!" he could answer calmly "No, it is not Google".

Now I know why did I saw the BG borg sad

Re:This Just In

[cosminn]

"And there was much rejoicing!
- ..YAAAY..."

Re:This Just In

[M1FCJ]

That won't work. Eclipse is just a wrapper which spawns a number of java processes:

m1fcj 4180 4114 0 17:14 pts/10 00:00:00 /usr/java/jdk1.4/bin/java -Xmx256M -jar /home/m1fcj/eclipse/./startup.jar -os linux -ws gtk -arch x86 -launcher /home/m1fcj/eclipse/./eclipse -name Eclipse -showsplash 600 -exitdata 1a20000 -vm /usr/java/jdk1.4/bin/java -vmargs -Xmx256M -jar /home/m1fcj/eclipse/./startup.jar

A "killall eclipse" will only kill the shell. The output above is after my "killall eclipse".

A good old way of doing this is as follows:

#for i in `ps axuww|grep eclipse|grep -v grep|awk '{print $2}'`; do kill -9 $i; done ;

Works all the time although it is somewhat an overkill... but I still can tpe that faster than doing it in Windows (ctrl-alt-del, task manager, processes, select, right click, select kill or whatever, wait until it dies, get impatient, try to kill it again, click on the modal box stating that an application can't be closed while it is being debugged, get annoyed, scream, punch the screen, locate where the first aid kit and antidepresseants are... Waay too many things to do.

Re:This Just In

[ashyanbhog]

furniture companies in Redmond today offered a special volume discount on "Entertain Chairs" to Software maker Microsoft. This is a upgrade from their earlier offerings and services such as pick up of broken chairs during delivery of new ones are bundled with this edition. However, these companies indicated that this is a midterm upgrade until the debut of their new furniture being designed from ground up.

The new furniture is already under active development and is expected to be released during end of 2006. A new design methodology in which modular development takes precedent over integrated innovation was recently introduced to speed up the process and meet the deadline. Modular approach allows for more independent development and testing by various groups. It also permitted automated testing that helps identify errors and incompatibilities early during the process. Some features in the new design are being back ported to allow customers to switch at a slower pace.

Integrated innovation approach used extensively in earlier products was abandoned after it failed to accommodate large fundamental changes as even small changes in some critical corner regularly broke stability of others and the complex interlinks forced designers to resort to manual testing which failed to catch errors before product introduction, creating a need for these companies to ship service kits shortly after products hit the shelf. This old approach required designers to spend more time integrating their innovation in meetings than spend it doing actual design. Few frustrated designers recently started blogs to air their unhappiness after thick layers of bureaucracy prevented their voices from being heard by management. Discovery of errors in furniture frequently by third parties despite non-availability of the design drawings, lead to weekly patch kits becoming regular.

A AMC program called "Assurance" introduced to fund such kits was badly received by customers and some of them have switched to smaller shops that offer more customizable and maintainable furniture solutions by shipping with their design drawings allowing third parties to fix, modify or upgrade the furniture if required.

A hyped feature of the new design is inclusion of metathreads with every fiber which allows easier and much faster finding of broken furniture using a new tool that eliminates the time consuming need for sweeping the entire floor. Though this feature was already available as add on, it is said that this new design binds it tightly. A common complaint with earlier product designs which made furnitures easy to hijack when exposed to public has been significantly addressed by creating more isolated modules that allow the furniture to be usable even if particular modules are hijacked. Other new features hyped or listed include glossy finish, a richer user experience and new grips that makes the user more productive, allowing him to focus on the throw by reducing the effort required to maintain furniture balance essential for effective throws.

Early prototypes of the new design are available for important customers and vendors with Monkey Spat design network accounts. Companies recently announced that the new design process will enable them to ship updated prototypes more frequently during the development cycle.

In a recent presentation, representatives of the companies were enthusiastic saying that the new design will provide growth opportunities for the entire market as it required customers to upgrade their cleaning equipments, maintenance employees to enroll in new certification programs and new expensive add ons to the furnitures to make it usable in the real world. They also revealed that the new design will be available in these editions

1. Home edition

2. Entertainment edition

3. Professional / Consultant edition

4. SOHO edition

5. Enterprise edition

6. Executive edition

7. CEO edition (a feature packed but with high assistance to en

Re:This Just In

[Anonymous Coward]

ps ... | xargs kill

not for...

MS's new corporate theme song

[ianmassey]

lately ought to be "exodus" by bob marley.

Re:MS's new corporate theme song

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't let Ballmer try to fool ya, or even try to school ya mon! We got ta show Gates how we run things around here!

In other news

[MemoryDragon]

The entrance door of the Eclipse foundation has been smashed with a chair recently...

Tool?

[rylin]

So instead of being a MS tool, he'll be an open-source tool?
What's the definition of an open-source tool? One who'll always use open-source software, even when there's proprietary software more suited for the job?

Help me out here!

Re:Tool?

[Just Some Guy]

One who'll always use open-source software, even when there's proprietary software more suited for the job?

I'll bite. Any software that makes my company's existence depend on the whims of an outside party is unsuitable for the job.

In my opinion, you have it backwards. An MS tool is one who believes Microsoft will always act in their best interest and stakes their financial future on it.

Microsoft doesn't care...

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft couldn't care less, they just released the first beta of VirtualMikeMilinkovich.

Did Ballmer......

[8127972]

..... Throw any chairs when he announced his departure?

Ballmer to blame?

[tjstork]

One wonders how many Microsoft developers are bailing because they are sick of the increasing lack of creative room under Herr Ballmer.

Re:Ballmer to blame?

[ArsenneLupin]

because they are sick of the increasing lack of creative room under Herr Ballmer.

They aren't obliged to squat under his chair, you know. There's much more room elsewhere in the office. But then, of course, you can't be hit by the chair you're sitting under...

Re:Ballmer to blame?

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

Not many, if they want to eat. It's only the management types that can actually fine paying jobs in OSS.

Re:Ballmer to blame?

[DustCollector]

>>
One wonders how many Microsoft developers are bailing because they are sick of the increasing lack of creative room under Herr Ballmer.

Nah, Ballmer is a great "Chairleader".

Someone explains this to me...

[Rhoon]

How does Eclipse really effect MS' sales for Visual Studio? If I'm developing in Java, I'm going to use Eclipse of course, but I wouldn't buy V.S. for Java development... there's no support. I'd use a Borland or a Sun product to do that.

And conversely, why would I use Eclipse for developing in a MS created Programming language (apart from the price break). IF I (or my company) have/has the cash to purchase V.S. and we're developing in C#, MFC, Visual C++ for a Windows program, then I will buy Visual Studio. I don't see how Eclipse is a direct competitor to MS at this point in time, they're hardly in the same market.

Re:Someone explains this to me...

[Xarius]

The summary states Microsoft has lost a unique asset, not sales of some generic product.

Re:Someone explains this to me...

[typidemon]

Have you tried IntelliJ IDEA? It is very good for Java programming, IMO better than Eclipse.

Re:Someone explains this to me...

[LiquidCoooled]

Recent development on Windows using anything other than Visual Studio was always hit and miss.

VS was a nice environment to code in and was what the kiddies and college students all used. There was no real programs using java on the desktop.

Now, a couple of things happened, MS released .net and fucked up visual studio, and Java started to become l33t.
We see more diverse programs recently written in numerous languages and runtimes (BT clients in java and python, .net this and that, more java here and there).

Its not just Eclipse MS should be afraid of, Interpretted languages are back in fashion and they need a dev environment.

Up until recently, I would have (shush) used Visual Studio, I have v6 at home and handles everything all legacy code, but I won't get the .net version. I've recently started playing with the sharpdevelop/mono combination and have no complaints thus far.

Why do I need to pay x hundreds of pounds for Visual Studio?

Re:Someone explains this to me...

[anomalous cohort]

How does Eclipse really effect MS' sales for Visual Studio?

I think that this post if a little off topic but I will reply anyway. One of the criteria for deciding what application stack to build from for decision makers in technology companies is the developer experience. The harder it is for developers to build in a particular application stack, the longer it will take or the more resources it will take to develop what is needed. When deciding between two application stacks of similar merit and assuming that either the existing staff is familiar with both or that there is no existing staff, the tie breaker just might be the tool.

I have been in ISVs in both camps. I can tell you from first hand experience that the J2EE stack is just as feature rich and architecturaly sound as the ASP.NET stack (though the actual details are profoundly different). For any company honestly considering which way to go, the choice boils down to VS.NET versus Eclipse (or Netbeans or IntelliJ, insert your favorite J2EE friendly IDE here).

Re:Someone explains this to me...

[Mechanik]

As a committer on the CDT Eclipse project, I can say right now that if you are doing doing win32 or MFC development, right now you'd be crazy to not use Visual Studio over Eclipse, unless you're willing to help work on the IDE support yourself.

Right now work is beginning in the CDT community on a prototypical debugger that uses the dbghelp APIs of Microsoft's free windows debugger (WinDbg). Work is also ongoing in the community on support for the Visual C++ compiler under CDT's Managed Build System. What's really needed right now is people to help out on these efforts, and someone to step up and make a windows resource editor (a la Eclipse's Visual Editor Project). We would love for CDT to be a serious (and free!) competitor to Visual Studio that required only the free debugger, compiler, and platform SDK downloads from Microsoft that are currently available... help us make it happen.

Re:Someone explains this to me...

[shaka]

I don't see how Eclipse is a direct competitor to MS at this point in time, they're hardly in the same market.

Partly correct. However, .NET is a direct competitor to Java/J2EE, and Eclipse (and other IDEs) are rapidly adding support for other languages and architectures, among them C# and .NET.

The most interesting thing to me, though, is that VS.NET is so powerless and hard to use. I used to think VS was pretty technologically advanced back in the day, albeit bad in other ways. Both IntelliJ Idea and Eclipse blow it away in terms of features and usability. Add to this that JetBrains, the creators of Idea and ReSharper (an add-on for VS.NET that is absolutely crucial to be able to use VS at all, IMO), are developing a full-blown .NET IDE that is positively going to blow VS.NET away even farther. Note that I haven't tried VS 2005 RC so that might be better, but I'm not holding my breath.

Re:Someone explains this to me...

[Zemplar]

Or NetBeans 5.0? The new NetBeans is much improved and, I believe, has now, ermmm....eclipsed Eclipse.

Re:Someone explains this to me...

[daem0n1x]

I had the misfortune of becoming a ASP VB developer during a year. I hated it with all my guts, but I had to pay my bills.
My employer was too cheap to move on to .NET, so we had to work with that old ASP shit using legacy VS6 that somebody had bought ages ago. We did the classical stuff, editing ASPs in VB and T-SQL stored procs.
Later, I found out, to my surprise, that Eclipse was better for ASP and T-SQL development than the very M$ tools in VS6 and SQL-Server. Some weeks later, I was using Eclipse for everything, ASP, T-SQL, PHP, XML, etc., integrating with M$ Visual Source Safe, and all. I had an Eclipse instance running since the very first minute I sat in my office chair every morning. My M$ drone colleagues used to look at me as if I was a freak, or something. But I was more productive than them.
Installing the right plugins, Eclipse can be the IDE for any kind of development you imagine.

Re:Someone explains this to me...

[Flwyd]

Ah, but if you have the choice of developing in Java with Eclipse or C++ in Visual Studio, all other things being equal, the former is the more attractive option. And that means your code can run anywhere. And that means your users don't have to own Windows to run your software.

So even if Eclipse isn't a direct competitor to Visual Studio, it can make a dent in the Empire.

Re:Someone explains this to me...

[Anonymous Coward]

Sadly, I wish its Java support was as good as IntelliJ.
I use eclipse because I can't afford IntelliJ at the moment, but I did use the trial and I would love to see some of those features in Eclipse.

While having C and Ruby and whatever in Eclipse is nice, there are better tools for those - but Eclipse is the best Java IDE, and it should compete with commercial offerings.

Re:Someone explains this to me...

[Billly Gates]

Mindshare and demand settings

If hacker jon 19 years old out of highschool wants to hack code do you think he is going to chose VS.net or something free? Well more than likely he will pirate it ... but the point is accessibility and low cost will get more people using it since pirating is a pain and you never know what you are going to get.

Also if you oversupply a market you will bring down demand. If there were no ide's at all out there you would probably be more willing to pay more for an ide. ALso which ide would you chose if netbeans and eclipse did not exist? Probably VS.net as its what everyone uses (in business).

The lower the demand the less money microsoft makes. IBM wants people to use Java anyway as it increases demands for their global services consulting and lowers the demand for Microsoft consultants.

Re:Someone explains this to me...

[sveinungkv]

Why support Microsofts non-free (as in free speach) tools in Eclipse? What I think is a problem here is that it depends on non-free software, it won't be portable to other platforms (like Linux) and it will give Microsoft a free tool to lock people into Windows (that even is given away for free).

Well, since I guess we disagree on philosophy: From a practical point of view, won't it be better to support something cross platform, like GNU's stuff (gcc, gdb...) and a cross platform toolkit (Gtk, Qt...)?

Re:Someone explains this to me...

[Mechanik]

Why support Microsofts non-free (as in free speach) tools in Eclipse?

Because we're open to everyone. The more people using Eclipse, the better it is for Eclipse. That's more users, more people fixing bugs, more people committing new features, etc. There are definitely people out there that would love a better IDE for Microsoft's tools, so why not give it to them? Why must it continue to cost money to make decent, native GUI apps in Windows if you want to use an IDE?

Shares of IKEA and other furniture makers ...

[ArsenneLupin]

... rise to record valuations!

What about Gates?

[amightywind]

How would you like to be a high end technical person and know that there will always be the self-appointed 'Chief Architect Gates' to judge your work. No wonder the brain drain at M$ is accelerating.

Re:What about Gates?

[tomstdenis]

I think you'll find brain drain happening from a lot of large corporations as time progresses. Cuz when it comes down to it, money is important, really important, but only if you make it so.

People will find ways to do what makes them happy [being creative] and enough money to sustain a life style.

Of course the best part of smaller businesses starting up is that the suits lose their jobs. Those useless pricks!

Tom

Re:What about Gates?

[amightywind]

Of course the best part of smaller businesses starting up is that the suits lose their jobs. Those useless pricks!

A few months back I left Honeywell Aerospace. They have a new President who is a financial guy with utter disdain for engineers. What started as a 10% performance based pruning has accelerated to over 40% attrition in 1 year! All the while Honeywell is transfering 20000 jobs to India. Forget that there is no one left to train here them! All of this while profits were at a record level. This greedy bastard is looking for 17% margins apparently. Everyone I know has gone to work for Honeywell's competition. Be on the lookout in the news for the new President to be fired on falling earnings and Honeywell Aerospace being sold.

Corporations should learn a lesson, never cut payroll in an up labor market unless it is really necessary. Mobility of labor works both ways!

Re:What about Gates?

[TheRaven64]

I'm surprised it isn't common practice to defer management bonuses by around five years, and base them on the stock price at the time they are paid. This would encourage CEOs to ensure that the company was around and profitable five years after they quit, and not reward people who come in, run a company into the ground, and cash out.

Re:What about Gates?

[WhiplashII]

That is common practice, in the form of stock options. Some companies don't do that, though, because if the CEO does well they can make a killing - and the investors think they are paying him too much.

Kind of silly, really - I believe in paying people a portion of what they make for the company. Align their interests with mine, and hope they get rich! The common critism is that engineers have no effect on sales, for example, and will get discouraged if sales cannot convert their work into cash. My answer is: then engineering better get on the phone and work with sales so that the product sells! Working in an information vaccuum is not worth paying for... and if the problem is sales, then work to solve that problem rather than the possibly more interesting purely engineering ones!

Re:What about Gates?

[Shotgun]

You obviously don't know how the good ol' boy networks operate.

Re:What about Gates?

[HungWeiLo]

Wow. What product line did you work in? We had some attrition, but nowhere near 40%. Although, this week alone, we lost 4 of our best people in Bangalore. Attrition is definitely much higher over there because of all the happy giddy dotcom jobhopping over there.

Re:What about Gates?

[amightywind]

APEX. The 40% might be low for my old work site. It is probably near 80% by now. Last spring a hatchet man (P.E.) for the new leadership came in and shut the place down, reneged on 3 nice turboprop and jet contracts, and flushed a nice product line down the toilet. I hear he is running the 787 program now. It'll be interesting if he can perform. I doubt it.

Re:What about Gates?

[HungWeiLo]

Yeah, I heard that project was pretty FUBAR. We ended up picking up some APEX people onto our team, then they were laid off, collected severence, and started in another team on our site the very next Monday. So basically they all got a paid week off for free. Dumbass management.

Re:What Wikipedia has become

[Anonymous Coward]

It's gotten to the point where on the front page yesterday, it mentioned dildos and pegging.

OMGWTF

This is seriously a disturbing turn of events! We can't let Wikipedia inform of methods to relieve sexual tensions with dildos! OMG, what is this crap? Think of the children! We must actively start aiming Wikipedia's front page for specific cultures and religions. Act now! Do YOU want your children to grow up in a society where people are informed about human sexuality?!

Gates had already predicted this move

[digitaldc]

From:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20051017/tc_nf/38691; _ylt=Amqnvtqy9Q9fJYcw8Yn1dq4jtBAF;_ylu=X3oDMTA5aHJ vMDdwBHNlYwN5bmNhdA--

"In the next decade, there'll be a shortage of great software engineers. We'll be scouring the schools for them," Gates told the students at Madison. "Software is the place where all the action is. It is an area that will continue to generate jobs. This is the golden age of software."

Another interesting quote that sounds like the 640k one:

He (Gates) predicted that the HD DVD will be "the last physical media format there will ever be." To help make that happen, Gates said he will need a lot more software engineers.

Oh boy, I hope that doesn't come back to haunt him.

Re:Gates had already predicted this move

[mwvdlee]

"It is an area that will continue to generate jobs." ...In India.

"the last physical media format there will ever be."
Because, as we all know, in the future, media will just float around magically on the internet, including back-ups.

Re:Gates had already predicted this move

[Citizen of Earth]

He (Gates) predicted that the HD DVD will be "the last physical media format there will ever be."

He could be right. First there will be High Definition. Then there will be Hyper Definition. Then there will be High-hyper Definition. Then there will be Hyper-high-hyper Definition. Then there will be Hugely-hyper-high-hyper Definition and Honkin'-hugely-hyper-high-hyper Definition. The superlatives are never-ending.

(What would be the radio-frequency designation for gamma rays?)

Re:Gates had already predicted this move

[Pig Hogger]

Because, as we all know, in the future, media will just float around magically on the internet, including back-ups.

The Internet is now like the mercury-delay line memory was, many moons ago...

Wanna save something for Eternity? Just dump it on the Internet; somebody will mirror it and preserve it forever...

(Delay line memory was a tank of mercury with a speaker at one end, and a microphone at the other. Bits were stored as sound impulses travelling in the tank. Just like dynamic memory, it had to be continuously refreshed).

Re:Gates had already predicted this move

[psavo]

Another interesting quote that sounds like the 640k one:

He (Gates) predicted that the HD DVD will be "the last physical media format there will ever be." To help make that happen, Gates said he will need a lot more software engineers.


Oh boy, I hope that doesn't come back to haunt him.

Damn, I'm so hopeful he's right on that. Already now I use DVD/CD only to transport data somewhere where only slower internet access is available. Everywhere else I just use my home machine.

I know there's big portion of humanity with fetish for tangible things and I'm part of that one, but I do hate all those piles of CD's I have in boxes. I think Linus got it so very right: "let the world backup your data" (or something like that).

Re:Gates had already predicted this move

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably a nice looking Greek gamma. People will call them y-rays.

Re:Gates had already predicted this move

[31415926535897]

Another interesting quote that sounds like the 640k one:

He (Gates) predicted that the HD DVD will be "the last physical media format there will ever be." To help make that happen, Gates said he will need a lot more software engineers.

You know, I'm not sure that's the same attitude he's looking at HD DVD with. I don't think that he believes that [n] GB (or TB, or EB, etc) will be enough at any point in time. I think that he wants physical media dead. There is too much liability (i.e. too much freedom) if the user holds the physical data. If Microsoft and the media companies want to control (obviously through DRM, Trusted Computing) how data is moved around, then they have to remove distribution of content by CD and DVD.

I doubt he's right about it, of course, but I think that's the way he envisions the future--everyone a slave to Microsoft Windows.

Re:Gates had already predicted this move

[flatface]

I think he means the codecs will improve, while being stored on the same physical media.

Re:Gates had already predicted this move

[LDoggg_]

"In the next decade, there'll be a shortage of great software engineers."

A shortage of great software engineers, or a shortage of great software engineers that want to work for Microsoft?

Re:Gates had already predicted this move

[TheRaven64]

Way to miss the point. He was saying that the next generation video format will not be distributed on a physical disk, it will be downloaded. The next generation optical disk will be for backup more than for distribution. Who would go to the shop to buy an ultra=high-def movie when they could just download it onto a computer / set-top box? It takes around 10 years to create a new video format, from introduction to widespread adoption, and in ten years everyone will have some kind of high-speed connection - even if it's to a video-on-demand walled garden, rather than the real Internet.

Re:Gates had already predicted this move

[Henk Postma]

He (Gates) predicted that the HD DVD will be "the last physical media format there will ever be." To help make that happen, Gates said he will need a lot more software engineers.

Oh boy, I hope that doesn't come back to haunt him.

I'm sure he'll be crying all the way to the bank ;-)

Re:Gates had already predicted this move

[chris_eineke]

(What would be the radio-frequency designation for gamma rays?)

M-M-M-M-M-Monster Hertz!

Re:Gates had already predicted this move

[OneFix]

Well, that quote is kind of hard to pinpoint the exact intent...

Did he mean that it would be the last "physical" storage technology...meaning that everything would be stored on the network somewhere? Not likely...companies wouldn't allow it...and it would have to be "stored" somewhere...unless he thinks we will start using our brains for storage or something...

Did he mean it would be the last magnetic/optical storage technology??? Maybe...that would of course mean that harddrives would still be around...that technology hasn't really changed since the first harddrives were mass produced...it's become better, there have been advances in the technology itself...but it's pretty much the same concepts...

Or, does he mean that it will be the last portable storage technology to actually spin in the drive...maybe...this is probably closer to what he means...flash drives are becoming very popular...not to mention, anyone with an iPod is carrying a little mass storage device (up to 80GB now)...but for flash or some other technology to replace the "spinning disk" technology we currently use, prices for flash media will have to come down dramatically...

Re:What Wikipedia has become

[ArsenneLupin]

Why not make g**tse a featured pic?

This has already happened, about a year ago. Lasted for about an hour, and caused a helluva ruckus. Especially because at that time you could register IP addresses as a user name, hehe.

Re:What Wikipedia has become

[smooth wombat]

that promotes socialist misinformation by ignoring futures markets and speculation, the fundamental methods by which resource fluctuations and overuse are stamped out.

You mean like Enron used to hike the price of electricity, right?

He's a cunning linguist, indeed.

[ArsenneLupin]

And you are a very smart troll. Congratulations!

Theres that zelda dying sound again..

[Anonymous Coward]

Doodley~ doodley~ doodley~ dooo~ Blip!

New Job Title

[Red Flayer]

"Cunningham's new title is Director of Committer Community Development"

What kind of obscure title is that? Why can't they call him Director of Marketing?

FTA: "Ward will lead the effort to create a more cohesive Eclipse committer community by working with developers in order to enhance Eclipse as 'the place to be.'"

Sounds like Marketing Director to me.

Let me get this straight again...

[LeonGeeste]

Using energy resources is bad, but high prices, which discourage people from unnecessarily using energy resources, are also bad... ...yeah, one day I'll understand, just not today.

Re:Let me get this straight again...

[Anonymous Coward]

whatever your bias, his point remains that Enron DID jack up energy prices and they are hardly a "socialist" company. So the GP is correct to point out that hypocrisy.

Re:Let me get this straight again...

[LeonGeeste]

He didn't point out any hypocrisy. And what is a "socialist" company? And high energy prices are good, because they teach us not to consume, right?

Hey, if you know the point he was trying to make, I'd really like to hear. You should be able to express it using complete sentences. Ready, set, go.

Re:Let me get this straight again...

[I confirm I'm not a]

And what is a "socialist" company?

Just a guess (I'm not the OP) but a workers' cooperative? Here in the UK they're not that rare - my bank is owned by one; one of the major supermarkets is the Cooperative Wholesale Society (which owns the Cooperative Bank/Smile), etc.

Incidentally, the Coop movement in the UK have their own political party, imaginatively called "The Cooperative Party" - in practice the only candidates they stand at elections are joint Labour Party/Cooperative candidates. They tend to be "right wingers" (in a UK Social Democratic sense) - Fabian rather than revolutionary.

Re:Let me get this straight again...

[Anonymous Coward]

you say "ignoring futures markets and speculation, the fundamental methods by which resource fluctuations and overuse are stamped out." is a socialist act. (which, by the way, puts you in no position to criticise grammar) Enron did exactly this. So now, either Enron is (was) socialist, or you are wrong.

Re:Let me get this straight again...

[LeonGeeste]

you say "ignoring futures markets and speculation, the fundamental methods by which resource fluctuations and overuse are stamped out." is a socialist act.

Yes, ignoring those mechanisms is something only the ignorant and the socialist do - and I'm erring in their favor.

(which, by the way, puts you in no position to criticise grammar)

Nope, the grammar's fine.

Enron did exactly this. So now, either Enron is (was) socialist, or you are wrong.

No, Enron did not ignore futures markets and specualtion; they actively dabbled in them.

Remember kid, it's ignoring these markets that is socialist, not the markets themselves that are socialist.

Watch out...

[guruevi]

...for flying chairs in Redmond.

More info at EclipseZone

[Ed Burnette]

This news was first posted on EclipseZone. There, you can find an article announcing the move that goes into a little more detail about what Ward will be doing at Eclipse. Please add this article link to your main post.

Re:More info at EclipseZone

[LDoggg_]

Thanks for the link to eclipsezone. Been a long time user of eclipse and never come accross the site.

Maybe its time slashdot added an eclipse topic?

Who modded the parent informative?

[bodger_uk]

Come on, own up! Which bit of the parent was informative? Surely they were more Insightful?

Oh dear!

[oneandoneis2]

How are Microsoft going to be able to tell people "There's no money in Open Source" if their best & brightest keep getting lured away by companies based on it? :o)

Ward has already changed his Wikipedia page

[bloglogic]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward_Cunningham

Re:What Wikipedia has become

[Anonymous Coward]

It was probably you who put it there. Look at all the people rushing to Wikipedia's defense. NOTHING is inappropriate for Wikipedia's front page.

Re:What Wikipedia has become

[Anonymous Coward]

futures markets and speculation, the fundamental methods by which resource fluctuations and overuse are stamped out

While that is nothing like value-laden, assumption-loaded capitalist terminology. Pot Inc, could I introduce you to Kettle Ltd?

Principles and standards

[Anonymous Coward]

One who'll always use open-source software, even when there's proprietary software more suited for the job?

Upholding principles and standards can be more important than choosing something "more suited" for the job. For example, hiring a contract killer might be a far more effective way of stopping the proponents of raising taxes, but we still prefer to do it the more moral but less effective way and argue with them instead.

And so it is with proprietary software tools. In their own way, they have blood on them.

Re:Principles and standards

[Anonymous Coward]

Following your logic, I could say that open-source software has blood on it, as it causes a loss of jobs - meaning we can't donate enough money to keep Africa from starving.
Yours trolly,
-r

Re:Principles and standards

[Anonymous Coward]

In other words, an OSS fan is someone who cares more about taking the moral highground than getting his job done.

Re:Principles and standards

[Javaman59]

In other words, an OSS fan is someone who cares more about taking the moral highground than getting his job done.

I know that mods don't like "me too" posts, but hey, that is just too sweet!

Well said!

And "well said!" to the parent.."What's the definition of an open-source tool? One who'll always use open-source software, even when there's proprietary software more suited for the job?"

OK, I'll add a little value, and say that such people definitely exist - I've seen them. Curiously, I've never seen them devote their *own* time and money to to the more expensive (open-source) solution, but only the boss's.

Indeed, Wikipedia

[Dolda2000]

Since you mentioned Wikipedia yourself in the title of your post, why not take the step further?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward_Cunningham.

Father of Wiki Quits MS, Moves to Eclipse ...

[Eric Damron]

...and Balmer vows to kill Eclipse and its little dog toto too.

my favorite part

[suezz]

"Almost all the major development organizations and independent software vendors support Eclipse, except for holdouts Sun Microsystems and Microsoft."

enough said.

Has Microsoft just been......

[Anonymous Coward]

Eclipsed?

Re:About time (reality check)

[notaprguy]

It's funny how the "media" likes to play up departures from Microsoft of mid-level people like this guy. I seriously doubt that there is much hand wringing over this and Ballmer certainly wasn't throwing chairs. I doubt he even knows about this guy leaving. The rumor about Ballmer throwing a chair when Mark Lucovsky left is, at best, unsubstantiated but at least in the case of Lucovsky you can imagine Ballmer giving a sh$t. Lucovsky was a Microsoft Distinguished Engineer and, while never actually shipping any real software, probably had a lot to offer. Ward was working on patterns and practices for god sakes!

Uh-oh.

[MaXiMiUS]

They better get those laser proof windows ready, Bill's mad!

This may sound ignorant -

[CzarinaHyperbola]

How does Wikipedia pay its employees? That is to say, where is its money coming from? I don't see any banners/popups/obnoxious forms of advertising, and I don't see a "Donate here" button anywhere.

Re:This may sound ignorant -

[Anonymous Coward]

There was an article here not too long ago about an interview with Jimmy Wales, founder of Wikipedia. In the interview, he mentions how Wikipedia actually only has one employee - a software developer. The majority of Wikipedia is kept running smoothly by volunteers. And they do use fundraising to earn money, but instead of a big banner, all they have is a small "Donations" link at the bottom of the navigation box.

The Microsoft Candidate

[tnk1]

I wonder; if somebody leaves Microsoft, do they get their soul back?

No.

The Microsoft Human Resources Manual defines the term "severance package" as what they do with your soul just before they force you to pack it in.

And uhh, nobody leaves Microsoft. They just let you think that so that their brainwashed minions can disseminate into the general Open Source population. Once they are in place...

Game over man.... game over.

*pulls tin foil hat down over ears*

Yes, but...

[WindBourne]

you can never get rid of the sulfur stench.

Re:What Wikipedia has become

[Anonymous Coward]

>Think of the children!

They did.. thats why you have this page!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatulence

Balance

[zlogic]

Gentoo creator joins MS, Ward Cunningham and the guy who the chair was thrown at leave.
I guess that we'll see more brains joining MS and leaving it.
I wonder what the ratio is between gain/loss of great programmers in MS.

Important Loss

[paulm]

For those of you who don't realize what a big loss for MS this is, I'd like to give some background on Ward Cunningham...

His career dates back to the early 50s where he successfully raised to children, Wally and "the Beave". His wife was hot and he drove off to some secret govt. installation every day without the slightest suspicion of family or neighbors. He went mostly by "Ward" in those days.

WC was on sabbatical during the 60s.

During the 70s WC went by the more proper "Mr. Cunningham". He raised Richie and Joannie, although not to his earlier level of success (Joannie went on the date Ralph Macchio). His wife was not hot.

During this phase of his life, Mr. Cunningham worked at a hardware store - punchcard readers/writers, that sort of thing.

Microsoft has truly lost a piece of Americana.

In The Words of Nelson Muntz...

[Foofoobar]

HA HA!

Dept of Marine Sciences

[mosel-saar-ruwer]

Oh, you know... Evil. The usual.

Specifically, he was in Marine Sciences, on the team trying to mount the friggin' lasers on the friggin' sharks' heads.

Unfortunately, their research was hampered by the lawsuit that PETA filed in the Ninth Circuit court...

OT - Your Sig....

[innerweb]

What is that quote from? I remember it, but can not remember the source of it.

Thanks!

InnerWeb

Re:OT - Your Sig....

[daeley]

Blade Runner

Re:What Wikipedia has become

[dkf]

every article [in Wikipedia presumably] reeks with socialist bias

What, every article?

Richard Stallman's predictions

[Anonymous Coward]

According to Richard Stallman, in the future, you won't be able to make a living as a programmer. That's why he founded GNU and Free Software. See http://www.gnu.org/gnu/manifesto.html, which states

There will be no need to be able to make a living from programming.

In fact, Stallman would much rather have you making a living in the service industry. Your future will be saying to your customers "You want fries with that?"

Welcome to the future.

MOD PARENT UP

[Anonymous Coward]

How's it flamebait to say you don't trust Microsoft to always do what's best for you? Politely, even?

Re:youngest uncle

[Viper233]

Wait a second... I'm the youngest Uncle?

I only have one niece though and she's not even 1... so I think I can play it cool for a bit longer.

Committer community?

[Anonymous Coward]

How about "Director of preaching to the choir". That sounds about right!

Hey, this Ward guy is important...

[Javaman59]

For the obvious reasons... no doubt about it..

But I've just looked him up in Wikipedia, and found this attributed as his most famous quote...

"What's the simplest thing that could possibly work?"

Says it all!