Re:Since that wasn't answered...
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Kylix in Limbo
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Agreed, wxPython is indeed probably the best tool for GPLed cross-platform GUI development.:) I wish you the best for your future Python projects!!
BTW, please feel free to document your experience migrating to Python somewhere, if you have time, I am sure there are people out there who could profit from it!:)
There, I would like to point out why something like KDE exists to -reduce- bloat, paradoxical as you may think it.
First of all, a LOT of any given KDE app's functionality resides in the libs. Heck, you can write a simple Web browser in 10 lines of code... This means that to start that app you'll need to load all sorts of libs, which accounts for some of the ~25% more memory a full KDE desktop takes over WindowMaker, as the parent post points out.
Only, and there's the tasty part, once the lib is loaded, it's loaded for all the apps that will ever use it. Ergo: the more code is shared by apps, the less bloat you get down the road.
While this -does- mean you get a bit of an overhead at startup, any additional KDE app running takes up considerably less additional memory than a similar app re-coded from scratch.
I routinely have 10 to 20 browser windows (tabbed and not tabbed) open at a given time, with a mail client, newsreader, IM app, music app, a variety of applets, an IDE and countless terms, and the system doesn't even flinch. Try doing that with as many GUI apps all reinventing their own wheel.
Oh, and as for speed, turn off the eye candy and KDE runs all sweet on a simple Pentium (yes, I did try it).
Note, I name KDE here because that's what I use most, but the same can be said for Gnome (to a lesser extent maybe; last time examined the Gnome architecture it encouraged custom code somewhat more, which is not a bad thing either, mind).
Since that wasn't answered...
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Kylix in Limbo
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Hello uradu,
Since you didn't get an answer about that, I think I'll point out that there's no 'real' compiler for Python -- they just package the interpreter and the bytecode together, as you supposed. Which is a good thing for deploying stuff on Windows, mind.
However, there -is- a JIT compiler for Python, which is called psycho, and it works really well (basically, just "import psycho" and then "psycho.full()" at the beginning of your program, and poof, it works). Some operations get speeded up drastically.
Also, if you're not targetting Windows primarily, you may want to try Qt 3 with PyQt. I found that you'll often need from 20% to 50% less code with Qt (thanks to its great API), and Qt Designer is a darn great GUI editor, too. You'll probably want to use the Eric IDE, which comes with the best Python debugger you'll find. (If you're targetting Windows as well, only Qt 2 is available there for free, and in some case it requires a tiny bit more code -- so if you've already invested some time learning wxPython it might not be worth switching.)
I've ended up dropping wxPython, personally, so I can't help you much with it, but if you need hints, help, etc, with Qt and PyQt, please feel free to drop me a line at balinares -at- ierne -dot- eu -dot- org.
> Unless we take the time to understand and remove preconceived > moral notions
Would be nice, but it won't happen.
Thinking about suicide bombers as crazy fucks is just -WAY- too intellectually comfortable. "They're not like us, son, they're/crazy/, etc". I've even seen the word 'brainwashed', in its hollywoodian acception, used to refer to them. What a cosy little way to think about it.
The truth, which I long suspected and which your link confirms (many thanks for posting it!!) is that they're just poor fucks who are made to feel a strong, emotional sense of kindred with an underlying group/cause, and made to hold that cause above themselves and everything else (with the tacit assumption that the 'cause' makes them better than the rest of the world, you'll note). People -are- willing to believe very strongly in anything, you know, provided that it makes themselves feel that they are 'better'. "-We- will go to Heaven," "-We- are the freest country in the world", etc, etc.
Now I see those of you who think fast begin to twitch. Yep, the above definition applies exactly (and I do mean 'exactly', not 'almost' or 'fairly well') to would-be patriots. They just die and kill a little less (or a little more, I'm not entirely sure), although for the same reasons.
People are born with little gears in their head, you see, that work the same in Miami and in Tehran. You can make this little experiment for yourself: pick someone at random, determine which group they belong to (religious, nation, etc...), and then tell them something like, "I think that <group>'s quality of life is not as good..." or anything like that, as long as it's 1) a personal opinion that 2) goes against the aforementionned sense that their group is 'better'. There are three major ways people can react: - The wise way is not to give a damn what you think, frankly, since it's just your idea and you thinking so doesn't make it true. - The intelligent way is to express curiosity about what you're basing your statement on, in case there might be some truth to it. - The emotional way is to immediately try to disprove your statement without considering it.
Try it out for yourself, and see which way most people react.
Strong, emotional sense of kindred with a group/cause, etc. It works frighteningly well.
No, really, anyone with a bit of wisdom will go back to thinking that suicide bombers are crazy, brainwashed, whatever, but just inherently different from you and I. The other option is just too uncomfortable.
Meat tastes good, alright. I'm not exactly sure where in that movie you saw anything either indicating otherwise, or promoting that 'soy meat' shit.
Doesn't mean we should accept buying industrialized crap like a bunch of obedient sheep, either. I find it shocking that in this country you can get sick from meat and eggs if you eat them too rare. Exactly when did the US become a third world country? Never? Good, I agree. So where's our first world food please? Oooh, but lookie, where to find that is exactly what this site is telling you! And the nice thing is, if you actually enjoy eating shit, you can go on doing so by simply not caring, isn't that cool?
Now bugger off and let those who care about what they put in their mouth appreciate the information, thank you.
Yeah, yeah, -1 offtopic unpatriotic commie, I know, boo hiss.
Re:Kylix/CLX has too many problems
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Kylix in Limbo
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> I've been using Kylix for about 3 months now, and I've reached > the stage of considering completely abandoning Kylix and > continuing with linux native C++ and Qt.
Just to pipe in, you may want to give the Python + PyQt combo a try, if you're into RAD. You get both the power of Qt and that of Python, along with the latter's very short development cycles. Works scarily well, too. In practice, I've been able to do GUI stuff in under one afternoon, that took experimented VB programmers three days. I wouldn't know how it compares with Delphi, however, but if you try it out you'll be able to make up your mind yourself.:)
> What are these guys doing right as compared to all the > other projects?
Yes, this is an -excellent- question. My take on it is:
1) They consistently pick the best tool for the job, regardless of ideology (see Qt); 2) They put a considerable amount of engineering work in under-the-hood infrastructure design; 3) While others bicker or troll, they code.
Simple as that, really. I'm very, very happy that they proved and keep proving that good engineering is how you make the damn best software out there. In this world of quick hacks and half-assed kludges and people who think themselves programmers because they got their VB project to compile, this is quite comforting for old asses like me...
You know, GNOME wouldn't be where it now is if people stopped trying to convince themselves that it's as good as KDE, and just freaking *made it happen*, instead.
And this comes from a former GNOME guy. I'm not gonna rant or correct some faulty assumptions in your post, it's just not worth sinking to that level (however, I'll try to point out some of your good points further down, for the sake of fairness). Besides, there are much cleverer people than I with in depth knowledge of both environments that make a much better job of summing up the issues at hand than I could. Interestingly, this guy too used to think that GNOME would become the #1 desktop environment. That was a few years ago.
This being said, you're right about a few things. There's much more to desktop integration than widget appearance. And GConf is indeed not as bad as the Windows registry, mostly thanks to the absence of CLSID and related codes!
As for the rest, this is Slashdot, so I won't bother. Those who care, already know, and those who don't care or don't want to know, won't stop not caring or not wanting to know just because little guy Balinares is busily opening his mouth.
Additionally, your post misses entirely the number one reason why you should be using GNOME:
Because you -like- it.
That's the most valid reason on Earth to be using anything. So please drop the would-be technical comparisons that GNOME can't and won't win because it's just fucking not designed to, dammit. Go back to writing the freaking best code you can, and let people enjoy GNOME if GNOME is what they enjoy. Blind zealotry turns people -away-, you know?
I just wish the GNOME guys would stop phagocyting third-party apps just for the somewhat awkward "this is now a GNOME app so GNOME rules!" bragging rights... People who like to choose based on technical merits have a right not to have GNOME forced into their apps if they don't want GNOME, dammit. We can bitch all we want about the KDE guys, but when they need an app, they code it, they don't go encyst themselves into neutral apps...
Three thousand two hundred and thirty six thanks to you for the contribution! I'm peeking into the terminfo man page right now. I do not intend to make the project able to emulate any terminal in existence, note; I just want to make sure that it'll behave correctly on any MUD/MUSH/MUCK/MOO you'll throw it at, even if it doesn't make use of all of the server's potential. Which is already no small task...
Right now, it behaves (silently) as a pure vanilla telnet Virtual Terminal, and only expands its capabilities as requested by the server, because only MUD-type games assume telnet capabilities -- none of the others act as telnet peers whatsoever, none that I know of anyway. And since the project is somewhat MUSH-oriented, MUD-type extensions are not a central concern at the moment (which is why input from experienced MUDers is much appreciated, BTW).
Note, zMUD doesn't run on Linux, so the second look I'll definitely take at it will, hopefully, suggest some good ideas, but in itself I fear it will still remain useless for my own use. That, and, of course, zMUD is way too MUD-oriented to be practical on MUSH/MUCK/MOOs, and they're the primary target of the project. Hopefully, if I design the code right, it should be possible to eventually add any MUD-oriented feature that one could wish for without interfering with the MUSH functionality. We'll see.
I'm working on exactly what you're looking for at the moment. I had the same problem as you, and so started to write a client for my own Unixy use. I expect it to go into beta within the coming month, hopefully, at which point I'll post the project to Freshmeat.
Right now it supports most ANSI color codes (and if you could point me to a good reliable source for all the codes in use I'd be much grateful), SSL, telnet negotiations, and I've made room for MCCP, MCP and MXP so that when I can get around to coding them it doesn't take too much time.
If you're still interested by the time the project makes it to Freshmeat, please feel free to get in touch with me. My FM username is the same as here on Slashdot, so no worries about missing the project in question when I post it. Since I'm more of a MUSH person myself, and you seem to be more knowledgeable about MUDs, your input, feature requests, etc, would be VERY valuable. Thank you.
Yes, this is an excellent point. Case in point. Basically, everything can be done in any Turing-complete language (which is something I wish the "But you can do everything in Visual Basic!" sales people would get...).
My feeling is that, when people say something like "This language's code is easier to read", they don't mean as much the language's syntax, as the coding practices that the language's structure encourages.
See "There should be more than one way to do it" as opposed to "There should be one -- and preferably only one -- obvious way to do it", for instance. Different philosophies that fit different languages that fit different coding practices. You'll note that both principles do correlate with the main selling point of their respective language, namely, Perl's ability to be the shortest path from 'nothing' to 'job's done', and Python's knack at remaining damn readable through thousands of lines of code even for programmers not yet involved in the project (among other things).
Down the road it's only a matter of goals, and picking the most appropriate tool to reach that goal. The tricky part, of course, being that 'appropriate' is a relative thing, and sometimes a somewhat unfitting tool is more appropriate in terms of practicality than something you don't yet know and would have to learn from scratch.
The medieval warm period you're referring to was a local weather phenomenon. It WAS significant, like the insane weather Europe has had of late, but not in the same way as what we're speaking about here.
We're speaking GLOBAL warming. The ENTIRE planet, everywhere beyond our borders, mind, is warming up. The average around which temperature fluctuates in Adelaide has risen. Same in Osaka. Same in Cape Town and Buenos Aires. Every-freaking-where! This, not exceptionally hot summers here and there, is what is unprecedented in the history of mankind. As examplified by the breaking of the Ward Hunt ice shelf -- heck, that thing was there long before Jesus himself...
And to answer your question, the GLOBAL average does correlate with the CO2 emission rates js7a pointed us to. Now, correlation is no more than a statistical tool that tells you two things behave in similar ways, no more, and it is not yet known what the links of causality between CO2 rates and global temperature are, which is the very crux of the problem.
However, the correlation is there, and it's beginning to put a serious dent in our long-term plans. Apparently the worldwide consensus (excluding the US, infuriatingly enough -- damn Bush) is that until we know for sure, we have no right to take any risk that may end up endangering the whole world beyond us, and working on that CO2 problem while studying further is a priority.
That's about it. Not that it will affect you and I much. We'll be long dead of much more civilized causes by the time climate shift makes production of enough food for us all impossible. *g*
For some reason it was decided that only the Wright brothers' attempt really counted and was worth teaching in schools, however. Go us, we invented the plane, etc.
Not that this one wasn't overly dependant on weather conditions either, of course (the plane exposed in this museum crashed in 1897 after a flight in bad weather conditions).
> I'd love to see Linux or *BSD distributions adopt this system, > as it's really cool to type SystemStarter start foo and have it > automatically load all the dependencies for foo before starting > foo itself.
Gentoo has been working that way for years, and if Gentoo does it, there are certainly other distros that work that way as well.
> I don't understand why Qt assumes VC++ on Windows
It doesn't. http://www.trolltech.com/products/qt/win dows.html Took exactly one (1) minute to look it up on Google. I mean, come -on-...
> May not be a HUGE market, but the Mac market isn't THAT small., > and it's MUCH bigger than Linux.
Agreed. I suppose that Borland doesn't support the Mac because this IDE *doesn't* ship with its own compiler, and will use whatever command-line tools are available on the target platform (yeah, VC++ is actually a frontend over command-line tools). And I don't know if Apple's Project Builder ships with command-line tools.
In the KDE control center, open 'Accessibility', 'Keyboard shortcuts', then double-click on any action you wish to associate a key or key sequence with. In the custom keystroke dialog, check 'multiple keys', and then type in your key sequence.
For example, I've made all my window operations, Ctrl+W+something. "Move window to next desktop" is Ctrl+W then Ctrl+right. Previous desktop is Ctrl+W then Ctrl+left. Maximize and minimize are, you guessed it, Ctrl+W then Ctrl+up and down, respectively. Very convenient!
Apparently the entire system will be replaced in KDE 3.2, as another poster pointed out, though, so you can also wait and see how much improvement that brings.:) Right now it still feels a tad incomplete. You can only bind key sequences to predefined window manager actions or application actions -- no way to open Konqueror (or Mozilla) on Slashdot.org, for example.
> It isn't about shooting yourself in the foot, it is about > not giving your money to people who wish to damage GNU/Linux.
I've understood that already, but thanks for trying to clarify.:) My point is that even if you're really trying to aim somewhere else, as long as the bullet goes through your foot, well, you've shot yourself in the foot, and the fact you did it on purpose or not is irrelevant. I *do* know that a broken foot is not your immediate goal, of course.
> Trolltech isn't required to obtain financing via Canopy.
This is true. This/was/ true -- only, now, it's too late. It might have been poor judgment at the time, but they did. And you can *NOT* just give the investors their money back and say "Well, bye". Excuse me for asking this, but do you realize that if companies could walk away from their investors on a whim, then they would ALL do so the moment they turn a profit?:) Investment contracts do NOT allow you to do that, because investors base their business on the assumption that most companies won't make it, BUT a few of them will turn a profit large enough to cover the other companies and more. This is why they CAN'T and DON'T let go companies that begin to turn a large profit.
If you want to achieve anything fruitful wrt/ Trolltech and Canopy, then go after *Canopy*, and have them let Trolltech go. I fear that's all we can do about it. Yes, I know, it sucks. No, I don't like it any more than you do, you know. Trolltech is one of the poster childs of successful open source business models. It's a fucking pity to see them involved in all this shit.
> The fact is, would you give money to Canopy directly?
No way. I don't, and I wouldn't.
> Then why would you do so indirectly?
I don't, and I wouldn't, *WHICH IS WHY* I'm using the GPL'ed Qt. How does Canopy make any money from people using the GPL'ed Qt? Frankly? Better yet: do you really thing that if a company like Canopy had any say in this, there would be such as thing as a GPL'ed version of Qt?:)
Maybe you're worried about things such as 'mindshare' and things like that, which is an arguable point, I guess. Or at least, it would probably be if Qt wasn't where it already is. Did you now that in kernel 2.6 the 'make xconfig' system is now Qt-based?
The Qt cat is out of the proprietary bag for the time being. Neither you nor Canopy can reverse this. Only commercial Trolltech customers can hurt Trolltech financially (and commercial Trolltech customers can't go for GNUstep or GTK, as you suggest, because what commercial Trolltech customers are after is seamless cross-platform portability).
And even so, they'd hurt us Linux users more than Trolltech themselves, and Canopy 20 times less still (5%, remember).
It's over, DashSl0t. I'm sorry. I want to hurt SCO every bit as much as you do, but shooting Trolltech is not the way to go. Trolltech IS one of our feet. Even if it unfortunately stepped in a turd at some point in the past.
> The point isn't to punish Trolltech, it is to put pressure on them
Okay. Let's put it that way. Are you a paying customer of Trolltech? Most Linux users (us!) aren't. If we aren't paying customers, how the HELL do you mean to 'put pressure on them'? I mean, seriously? Even worse -- let's assume we email them relentlessly, etc. Good, now we've annoyed them. What does it change from Canopy's side? Absolutely *nothing*. Trolltech has not lost a cent, and that's the only thing that matters to a holding like Canopy. If Canopy was interested in Trolltech at a controlling level, they'd invest for way more than 5%.
But then, I may perfectly have overlooked something, alright. How do you think the using another toolkit rather than Qt will help us against SCO?
Note that the whole debate is based on the premise that Trolltech could get away from Canopy at a whim if they wanted to, which is quite a big assumption to make, and goes straight against my experience of how investment works over here in the old world (though once again, YMMV, I guess).
Oh, to answer other people: yes, I'm making a special case of Trolltech, because of all the companies listed in the earlier post, they're the only one who have been extremely supportive of Linux and have helped and are still helping us making it progress on the desktop. Once again, not matter how firmly you believe you should shoot yourself in the foot, the primary consequence will STILL be a broken foot.
> That KDE has a better desktop than Gnome is completely irrelevant.
Agreed, and I wouldn't even say that KDE is better than Gnome. Just that I'd MUCH rather see them compete on technical merits.
> I've switched to using IceWM for the time being, and sent > KDE/Trolltech letters telling them why
I'd be interested in any answer you got, I must say. That case is a very tough one to make without sounding like, well, someone with a somewhat naive outlook on relationships with investors maybe... I know I sure wouldn't have found the arguments to make it sound any more pertinent than, say, "I'm ostracizing you because I once saw Bad Guy smile at you, and I want him down!" *g*
> According to you that makes me a "low-IQ, lying hypocrite"? > Oh *you* come on.
Agreed. Those were harsh words. I was way pissed, still am to an extent.
However, I still cannot see how that will lead to anything but hurting Linux. I have no idea how your IQ compares with the rest of the world, but I can only urge you to concentrate all of it on the issue for a moment -- and especially those two points: 1) Is Trolltech likely to have any kind of say or influence about what Canopy does with other entirely unrelated companies? In the real world, I mean. 2) Once given that hurting Trolltech will do strictly nothing against SCO, why would people bother attacking them?
It might very well be that people seriously think it is actually possible to get to SCO through Trolltech. But honestly, I think not. Did you notice that the URL linked in the earlier post did NOT suggest to write to Canopy-owned companies about your concerns, for example, but urged to simply replace their products with others? In Trolltech's case, how will replacing a freaking *GPL*ed lib with another even remotely hit Canopy's radar? Does that make any sense to you, frankly?
Don't let your good feeling and honest willingness to help Linux against SCO (which I acknowledge and respect!) blind you. This is not about hurting SCO. Hurting SCO is the pretext.
And it's already working. Just look at your reaction and eniu!uine's.
This is sick.
ARGH!!!!! (warning, rant)
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I'm SO tired of that load of low-IQ FUD. Let's drop that bullshit already, goddamn it. (I mean the parent posts here, not you, eniu!uine).
Canopy has absolutely *NO* control over Trolltech, much less KDE. They don't own more than 5% of Trolltech. Do you know how much decision power 5% gives them? Zero. None. Zilch. Got it? Going against them will absolutely not hurt SCO. Only Linux. Want to hurt SCO? Keep using Linux and whatever your fav desktop environment is. That's *it*.
Just let the bitter anti-KDE trolls swoop as low and underhanded as they'll want, and let the rest of us move on and actually work on improving software, alright?
The only thing that this bullshit (sorry for the language again, but I absolutely LOATHE liars and hypocrites) would achieve is 1) make the people who haven't managed to beat Trolltech on technical value gloat, and 2) push the Linux desktop development back a year or two. I am absolutely appalled that some/.ers would resort to such underhanded tactics. If at *least* it had any chance to hurt SCO, I'd understand, but it's not even the case!
Damn it, as if the industry's state wasn't embittering enough as it is, do we *really* need such backhanded moves among our ranks?
(And yes, I know, at least a few of the parent posters believed in all honesty that this would somehow hurt SCO, but -- come on, people... Shooting yourself in the foot hurts the foot, not the podiatrist...)
> I'd like that big projects like Moz or KDE be modular in terms > of speed vs. functionalities
For KDE, start 'kpersonalizer', the third screen of the wizard lets you adjust a slidebar from 'Fast' to 'Heavily eye-candied'. Or you can switch to advanced mode and activate/disactivate the features on a case by case basis. This remains a bit superficial, but *does* have a significant effect on the desktop's responsiveness.
Mozilla's case is a bit different: the project's scope is twofold. 1) Produce a fast and stable HTML engine. This is Gecko. It is fast and stable. 2) Produce a full-featured environment using that engine. This is Mozilla itself. It's not what you want. Just keep Gecko in a different wrapping (Galeon...). That's how the Mozilla project does speed vs. functionalities, and it IS modular.
I have to agree. Sounds like someone with an axe to pick and yet trying to come across as an "oh look at me I'm knowledgeable and unbiased!" kind of writer. Feh.
So, let's see.
First of all, isn't it funny how the author omits to mention how a clean and thoroughly engineered class hierarchy can help you design more modular software that will be much easier to maintain and refactor? Or do people really think that the KDE project has been improving at the pace it has by mere luck?
> Very business-oriented main Web site
That's a problem how? Do you really MIND that the site provides info for people other than geeks, along with, you know, a completely up to date documentation for each version?
> Main branch depending on one company
This is either pure ignorance or a lie. Typical underhanded FUD. The main branch is GPL'ed, and the KDE Foundation was established to keep the main branch GPL'ed no matter what happens to Trolltech. http://www.kde.org/whatiskde/kdefreeqt foundation.p hp
> Commercial developers and people wanting portability have to pay
Commercial developpers *ARE* allowed to sell GPL apps, dammit. THIS is the way of Free Software business. And Qt 2 is available under for GPL on all the main platforms. That's for portability. Only Qt 3 for Windows requires a commercial license (this wasn't always the case, but according to interviews I read some Windows developpers would routinely use the GPL version in closed source apps, so Trolltech had to discontinue the GPL license on Windows. Thank you, guys. Thank you so much.)
> Huge sources and binaries, library itself takes ages to compile
That's C++ for you, dude. Install a binary package next time. Additionally, and just because I'm pissed and am most willing to nitpick the bullshit out of existence, 1) Qt ships will ALL the major distribs, and a majority of minor ones -- no need to recompile it, and 2) You don't need to recompile it either for use with older software, as the API is backwards compatible -- which is not the case of all the APIs out there, which he blissfully omitted.
> Objects not referred by namespace but simple literal prefix "Q"
And that's a problem how?
> Dominant Microsoft Windows look
This is either pure ignorance or a lie. I won't even enumerate the number of looks Qt comes with *natively*.
In fact, this is so close to the usual Qt FUD you can hear from certain people that I strongly suspect that the whole purpose of the article was a clumsy attempt at slowing the growing popularity of Qt. Well, sorry, but such retarded FUD won't last three minutes on Slashdot. We may be a bunch of bickering nerds at times, but we know our shit.
If you don't like Qt and are concerned about its growing supremacy, which is your absolute right, then contribute to competing projects to help them improve. Trying to smear shit on competitors will only make your side look desperate. Is this what you want?
Rant other. Let the moderation begin, I have karma to burn.
Not outlawed, nope. I mean, gee, the French have beheaded politicians for less than that. *g*
What you're referring to is the government's agencies being made to use, of all the commonly used words for email ("email", "mail" and "courriel"), the one that fits in the tongue best.
I thought/. reported on that a while back? You did read the article, didn't you?
Python and Qt are the killer combo. I once coded during a break, just for fun (and as an example for the management, alright), a complex widget that took our head VB programmer *three days*. Only the Python/Qt widget was dynamically resizable (the VB one wasn't) and could hold any subwidget (the VB one could only hold buttons).
Now I use Python for a variety of tasks ranging from things just a little too complex to be cleanly done in Perl, to large things that usually belong in Java's sphere but are much faster coded in Python. But GUI programming is an area where it particularly shines.
Slashdot Mirror
Agreed, wxPython is indeed probably the best tool for GPLed cross-platform GUI development. :) I wish you the best for your future Python projects!!
:)
BTW, please feel free to document your experience migrating to Python somewhere, if you have time, I am sure there are people out there who could profit from it!
There, I would like to point out why something like KDE exists to -reduce- bloat, paradoxical as you may think it.
First of all, a LOT of any given KDE app's functionality resides in the libs. Heck, you can write a simple Web browser in 10 lines of code... This means that to start that app you'll need to load all sorts of libs, which accounts for some of the ~25% more memory a full KDE desktop takes over WindowMaker, as the parent post points out.
Only, and there's the tasty part, once the lib is loaded, it's loaded for all the apps that will ever use it. Ergo: the more code is shared by apps, the less bloat you get down the road.
While this -does- mean you get a bit of an overhead at startup, any additional KDE app running takes up considerably less additional memory than a similar app re-coded from scratch.
I routinely have 10 to 20 browser windows (tabbed and not tabbed) open at a given time, with a mail client, newsreader, IM app, music app, a variety of applets, an IDE and countless terms, and the system doesn't even flinch. Try doing that with as many GUI apps all reinventing their own wheel.
Oh, and as for speed, turn off the eye candy and KDE runs all sweet on a simple Pentium (yes, I did try it).
Note, I name KDE here because that's what I use most, but the same can be said for Gnome (to a lesser extent maybe; last time examined the Gnome architecture it encouraged custom code somewhat more, which is not a bad thing either, mind).
Hello uradu,
Since you didn't get an answer about that, I think I'll point out that there's no 'real' compiler for Python -- they just package the interpreter and the bytecode together, as you supposed. Which is a good thing for deploying stuff on Windows, mind.
However, there -is- a JIT compiler for Python, which is called psycho, and it works really well (basically, just "import psycho" and then "psycho.full()" at the beginning of your program, and poof, it works). Some operations get speeded up drastically.
Also, if you're not targetting Windows primarily, you may want to try Qt 3 with PyQt. I found that you'll often need from 20% to 50% less code with Qt (thanks to its great API), and Qt Designer is a darn great GUI editor, too. You'll probably want to use the Eric IDE, which comes with the best Python debugger you'll find. (If you're targetting Windows as well, only Qt 2 is available there for free, and in some case it requires a tiny bit more code -- so if you've already invested some time learning wxPython it might not be worth switching.)
I've ended up dropping wxPython, personally, so I can't help you much with it, but if you need hints, help, etc, with Qt and PyQt, please feel free to drop me a line at balinares -at- ierne -dot- eu -dot- org.
> Unless we take the time to understand and remove preconceived
/crazy/, etc". I've even seen the word 'brainwashed', in its hollywoodian acception, used to refer to them. What a cosy little way to think about it.
> moral notions
Would be nice, but it won't happen.
Thinking about suicide bombers as crazy fucks is just -WAY- too intellectually comfortable. "They're not like us, son, they're
The truth, which I long suspected and which your link confirms (many thanks for posting it!!) is that they're just poor fucks who are made to feel a strong, emotional sense of kindred with an underlying group/cause, and made to hold that cause above themselves and everything else (with the tacit assumption that the 'cause' makes them better than the rest of the world, you'll note). People -are- willing to believe very strongly in anything, you know, provided that it makes themselves feel that they are 'better'. "-We- will go to Heaven," "-We- are the freest country in the world", etc, etc.
Now I see those of you who think fast begin to twitch. Yep, the above definition applies exactly (and I do mean 'exactly', not 'almost' or 'fairly well') to would-be patriots. They just die and kill a little less (or a little more, I'm not entirely sure), although for the same reasons.
People are born with little gears in their head, you see, that work the same in Miami and in Tehran. You can make this little experiment for yourself: pick someone at random, determine which group they belong to (religious, nation, etc...), and then tell them something like, "I think that <group>'s quality of life is not as good..." or anything like that, as long as it's 1) a personal opinion that 2) goes against the aforementionned sense that their group is 'better'. There are three major ways people can react:
- The wise way is not to give a damn what you think, frankly, since it's just your idea and you thinking so doesn't make it true.
- The intelligent way is to express curiosity about what you're basing your statement on, in case there might be some truth to it.
- The emotional way is to immediately try to disprove your statement without considering it.
Try it out for yourself, and see which way most people react.
Strong, emotional sense of kindred with a group/cause, etc. It works frighteningly well.
No, really, anyone with a bit of wisdom will go back to thinking that suicide bombers are crazy, brainwashed, whatever, but just inherently different from you and I. The other option is just too uncomfortable.
Meat tastes good, alright. I'm not exactly sure where in that movie you saw anything either indicating otherwise, or promoting that 'soy meat' shit.
Doesn't mean we should accept buying industrialized crap like a bunch of obedient sheep, either. I find it shocking that in this country you can get sick from meat and eggs if you eat them too rare. Exactly when did the US become a third world country? Never? Good, I agree. So where's our first world food please? Oooh, but lookie, where to find that is exactly what this site is telling you! And the nice thing is, if you actually enjoy eating shit, you can go on doing so by simply not caring, isn't that cool?
Now bugger off and let those who care about what they put in their mouth appreciate the information, thank you.
Yeah, yeah, -1 offtopic unpatriotic commie, I know, boo hiss.
> I've been using Kylix for about 3 months now, and I've reached
:)
> the stage of considering completely abandoning Kylix and
> continuing with linux native C++ and Qt.
Just to pipe in, you may want to give the Python + PyQt combo a try, if you're into RAD. You get both the power of Qt and that of Python, along with the latter's very short development cycles. Works scarily well, too. In practice, I've been able to do GUI stuff in under one afternoon, that took experimented VB programmers three days. I wouldn't know how it compares with Delphi, however, but if you try it out you'll be able to make up your mind yourself.
> What are these guys doing right as compared to all the
> other projects?
Yes, this is an -excellent- question.
My take on it is:
1) They consistently pick the best tool for the job, regardless of ideology (see Qt);
2) They put a considerable amount of engineering work in under-the-hood infrastructure design;
3) While others bicker or troll, they code.
Simple as that, really. I'm very, very happy that they proved and keep proving that good engineering is how you make the damn best software out there. In this world of quick hacks and half-assed kludges and people who think themselves programmers because they got their VB project to compile, this is quite comforting for old asses like me...
You know, GNOME wouldn't be where it now is if people stopped trying to convince themselves that it's as good as KDE, and just freaking *made it happen*, instead.
And this comes from a former GNOME guy. I'm not gonna rant or correct some faulty assumptions in your post, it's just not worth sinking to that level (however, I'll try to point out some of your good points further down, for the sake of fairness). Besides, there are much cleverer people than I with in depth knowledge of both environments that make a much better job of summing up the issues at hand than I could. Interestingly, this guy too used to think that GNOME would become the #1 desktop environment. That was a few years ago.
This being said, you're right about a few things. There's much more to desktop integration than widget appearance. And GConf is indeed not as bad as the Windows registry, mostly thanks to the absence of CLSID and related codes!
As for the rest, this is Slashdot, so I won't bother. Those who care, already know, and those who don't care or don't want to know, won't stop not caring or not wanting to know just because little guy Balinares is busily opening his mouth.
Additionally, your post misses entirely the number one reason why you should be using GNOME:
Because you -like- it.
That's the most valid reason on Earth to be using anything. So please drop the would-be technical comparisons that GNOME can't and won't win because it's just fucking not designed to, dammit. Go back to writing the freaking best code you can, and let people enjoy GNOME if GNOME is what they enjoy. Blind zealotry turns people -away-, you know?
I just wish the GNOME guys would stop phagocyting third-party apps just for the somewhat awkward "this is now a GNOME app so GNOME rules!" bragging rights... People who like to choose based on technical merits have a right not to have GNOME forced into their apps if they don't want GNOME, dammit. We can bitch all we want about the KDE guys, but when they need an app, they code it, they don't go encyst themselves into neutral apps...
Three thousand two hundred and thirty six thanks to you for the contribution! I'm peeking into the terminfo man page right now. I do not intend to make the project able to emulate any terminal in existence, note; I just want to make sure that it'll behave correctly on any MUD/MUSH/MUCK/MOO you'll throw it at, even if it doesn't make use of all of the server's potential. Which is already no small task...
Right now, it behaves (silently) as a pure vanilla telnet Virtual Terminal, and only expands its capabilities as requested by the server, because only MUD-type games assume telnet capabilities -- none of the others act as telnet peers whatsoever, none that I know of anyway. And since the project is somewhat MUSH-oriented, MUD-type extensions are not a central concern at the moment (which is why input from experienced MUDers is much appreciated, BTW).
Note, zMUD doesn't run on Linux, so the second look I'll definitely take at it will, hopefully, suggest some good ideas, but in itself I fear it will still remain useless for my own use. That, and, of course, zMUD is way too MUD-oriented to be practical on MUSH/MUCK/MOOs, and they're the primary target of the project. Hopefully, if I design the code right, it should be possible to eventually add any MUD-oriented feature that one could wish for without interfering with the MUSH functionality. We'll see.
Thanks again for your answer!
Hello br00tus,
I'm working on exactly what you're looking for at the moment. I had the same problem as you, and so started to write a client for my own Unixy use. I expect it to go into beta within the coming month, hopefully, at which point I'll post the project to Freshmeat.
Right now it supports most ANSI color codes (and if you could point me to a good reliable source for all the codes in use I'd be much grateful), SSL, telnet negotiations, and I've made room for MCCP, MCP and MXP so that when I can get around to coding them it doesn't take too much time.
If you're still interested by the time the project makes it to Freshmeat, please feel free to get in touch with me. My FM username is the same as here on Slashdot, so no worries about missing the project in question when I post it. Since I'm more of a MUSH person myself, and you seem to be more knowledgeable about MUDs, your input, feature requests, etc, would be VERY valuable. Thank you.
Yes, this is an excellent point. Case in point. Basically, everything can be done in any Turing-complete language (which is something I wish the "But you can do everything in Visual Basic!" sales people would get...).
My feeling is that, when people say something like "This language's code is easier to read", they don't mean as much the language's syntax, as the coding practices that the language's structure encourages.
See "There should be more than one way to do it" as opposed to "There should be one -- and preferably only one -- obvious way to do it", for instance. Different philosophies that fit different languages that fit different coding practices. You'll note that both principles do correlate with the main selling point of their respective language, namely, Perl's ability to be the shortest path from 'nothing' to 'job's done', and Python's knack at remaining damn readable through thousands of lines of code even for programmers not yet involved in the project (among other things).
Down the road it's only a matter of goals, and picking the most appropriate tool to reach that goal. The tricky part, of course, being that 'appropriate' is a relative thing, and sometimes a somewhat unfitting tool is more appropriate in terms of practicality than something you don't yet know and would have to learn from scratch.
Oh, and zealotry is sclerosis of the mind.
Watch out. Logical fallacy ahead.
The medieval warm period you're referring to was a local weather phenomenon. It WAS significant, like the insane weather Europe has had of late, but not in the same way as what we're speaking about here.
We're speaking GLOBAL warming. The ENTIRE planet, everywhere beyond our borders, mind, is warming up. The average around which temperature fluctuates in Adelaide has risen. Same in Osaka. Same in Cape Town and Buenos Aires. Every-freaking-where! This, not exceptionally hot summers here and there, is what is unprecedented in the history of mankind. As examplified by the breaking of the Ward Hunt ice shelf -- heck, that thing was there long before Jesus himself...
And to answer your question, the GLOBAL average does correlate with the CO2 emission rates js7a pointed us to. Now, correlation is no more than a statistical tool that tells you two things behave in similar ways, no more, and it is not yet known what the links of causality between CO2 rates and global temperature are, which is the very crux of the problem.
However, the correlation is there, and it's beginning to put a serious dent in our long-term plans. Apparently the worldwide consensus (excluding the US, infuriatingly enough -- damn Bush) is that until we know for sure, we have no right to take any risk that may end up endangering the whole world beyond us, and working on that CO2 problem while studying further is a priority.
That's about it. Not that it will affect you and I much. We'll be long dead of much more civilized causes by the time climate shift makes production of enough food for us all impossible. *g*
1890.
For some reason it was decided that only the Wright brothers' attempt really counted and was worth teaching in schools, however. Go us, we invented the plane, etc.
Not that this one wasn't overly dependant on weather conditions either, of course (the plane exposed in this museum crashed in 1897 after a flight in bad weather conditions).
> I'd love to see Linux or *BSD distributions adopt this system,
> as it's really cool to type SystemStarter start foo and have it
> automatically load all the dependencies for foo before starting
> foo itself.
Gentoo has been working that way for years, and if Gentoo does it, there are certainly other distros that work that way as well.
> I don't understand why Qt assumes VC++ on Windows
n dows.html
It doesn't.
http://www.trolltech.com/products/qt/wi
Took exactly one (1) minute to look it up on Google. I mean, come -on-...
> May not be a HUGE market, but the Mac market isn't THAT small.,
> and it's MUCH bigger than Linux.
Agreed. I suppose that Borland doesn't support the Mac because this IDE *doesn't* ship with its own compiler, and will use whatever command-line tools are available on the target platform (yeah, VC++ is actually a frontend over command-line tools). And I don't know if Apple's Project Builder ships with command-line tools.
In the KDE control center, open 'Accessibility', 'Keyboard shortcuts', then double-click on any action you wish to associate a key or key sequence with. In the custom keystroke dialog, check 'multiple keys', and then type in your key sequence.
:) Right now it still feels a tad incomplete. You can only bind key sequences to predefined window manager actions or application actions -- no way to open Konqueror (or Mozilla) on Slashdot.org, for example.
For example, I've made all my window operations, Ctrl+W+something. "Move window to next desktop" is Ctrl+W then Ctrl+right. Previous desktop is Ctrl+W then Ctrl+left. Maximize and minimize are, you guessed it, Ctrl+W then Ctrl+up and down, respectively. Very convenient!
Apparently the entire system will be replaced in KDE 3.2, as another poster pointed out, though, so you can also wait and see how much improvement that brings.
> It isn't about shooting yourself in the foot, it is about
:)
/was/ true -- only, now, it's too late. It might have been poor judgment at the time, but they did. And you can *NOT* just give the investors their money back and say "Well, bye". Excuse me for asking this, but do you realize that if companies could walk away from their investors on a whim, then they would ALL do so the moment they turn a profit? :) Investment contracts do NOT allow you to do that, because investors base their business on the assumption that most companies won't make it, BUT a few of them will turn a profit large enough to cover the other companies and more. This is why they CAN'T and DON'T let go companies that begin to turn a large profit.
:)
> not giving your money to people who wish to damage GNU/Linux.
I've understood that already, but thanks for trying to clarify.
My point is that even if you're really trying to aim somewhere else, as long as the bullet goes through your foot, well, you've shot yourself in the foot, and the fact you did it on purpose or not is irrelevant. I *do* know that a broken foot is not your immediate goal, of course.
> Trolltech isn't required to obtain financing via Canopy.
This is true. This
If you want to achieve anything fruitful wrt/ Trolltech and Canopy, then go after *Canopy*, and have them let Trolltech go. I fear that's all we can do about it. Yes, I know, it sucks. No, I don't like it any more than you do, you know. Trolltech is one of the poster childs of successful open source business models. It's a fucking pity to see them involved in all this shit.
> The fact is, would you give money to Canopy directly?
No way. I don't, and I wouldn't.
> Then why would you do so indirectly?
I don't, and I wouldn't, *WHICH IS WHY* I'm using the GPL'ed Qt. How does Canopy make any money from people using the GPL'ed Qt? Frankly? Better yet: do you really thing that if a company like Canopy had any say in this, there would be such as thing as a GPL'ed version of Qt?
Maybe you're worried about things such as 'mindshare' and things like that, which is an arguable point, I guess. Or at least, it would probably be if Qt wasn't where it already is. Did you now that in kernel 2.6 the 'make xconfig' system is now Qt-based?
The Qt cat is out of the proprietary bag for the time being. Neither you nor Canopy can reverse this. Only commercial Trolltech customers can hurt Trolltech financially (and commercial Trolltech customers can't go for GNUstep or GTK, as you suggest, because what commercial Trolltech customers are after is seamless cross-platform portability).
And even so, they'd hurt us Linux users more than Trolltech themselves, and Canopy 20 times less still (5%, remember).
It's over, DashSl0t. I'm sorry. I want to hurt SCO every bit as much as you do, but shooting Trolltech is not the way to go. Trolltech IS one of our feet. Even if it unfortunately stepped in a turd at some point in the past.
> The point isn't to punish Trolltech, it is to put pressure on them
Okay. Let's put it that way. Are you a paying customer of Trolltech? Most Linux users (us!) aren't. If we aren't paying customers, how the HELL do you mean to 'put pressure on them'? I mean, seriously? Even worse -- let's assume we email them relentlessly, etc. Good, now we've annoyed them. What does it change from Canopy's side? Absolutely *nothing*. Trolltech has not lost a cent, and that's the only thing that matters to a holding like Canopy. If Canopy was interested in Trolltech at a controlling level, they'd invest for way more than 5%.
But then, I may perfectly have overlooked something, alright. How do you think the using another toolkit rather than Qt will help us against SCO?
Note that the whole debate is based on the premise that Trolltech could get away from Canopy at a whim if they wanted to, which is quite a big assumption to make, and goes straight against my experience of how investment works over here in the old world (though once again, YMMV, I guess).
Oh, to answer other people: yes, I'm making a special case of Trolltech, because of all the companies listed in the earlier post, they're the only one who have been extremely supportive of Linux and have helped and are still helping us making it progress on the desktop. Once again, not matter how firmly you believe you should shoot yourself in the foot, the primary consequence will STILL be a broken foot.
> That KDE has a better desktop than Gnome is completely irrelevant.
Agreed, and I wouldn't even say that KDE is better than Gnome. Just that I'd MUCH rather see them compete on technical merits.
> I've switched to using IceWM for the time being, and sent
> KDE/Trolltech letters telling them why
I'd be interested in any answer you got, I must say. That case is a very tough one to make without sounding like, well, someone with a somewhat naive outlook on relationships with investors maybe... I know I sure wouldn't have found the arguments to make it sound any more pertinent than, say, "I'm ostracizing you because I once saw Bad Guy smile at you, and I want him down!" *g*
> According to you that makes me a "low-IQ, lying hypocrite"?
> Oh *you* come on.
Agreed. Those were harsh words. I was way pissed, still am to an extent.
However, I still cannot see how that will lead to anything but hurting Linux. I have no idea how your IQ compares with the rest of the world, but I can only urge you to concentrate all of it on the issue for a moment -- and especially those two points: 1) Is Trolltech likely to have any kind of say or influence about what Canopy does with other entirely unrelated companies? In the real world, I mean. 2) Once given that hurting Trolltech will do strictly nothing against SCO, why would people bother attacking them?
It might very well be that people seriously think it is actually possible to get to SCO through Trolltech. But honestly, I think not. Did you notice that the URL linked in the earlier post did NOT suggest to write to Canopy-owned companies about your concerns, for example, but urged to simply replace their products with others? In Trolltech's case, how will replacing a freaking *GPL*ed lib with another even remotely hit Canopy's radar? Does that make any sense to you, frankly?
Don't let your good feeling and honest willingness to help Linux against SCO (which I acknowledge and respect!) blind you. This is not about hurting SCO. Hurting SCO is the pretext.
And it's already working. Just look at your reaction and eniu!uine's.
This is sick.
I'm SO tired of that load of low-IQ FUD. Let's drop that bullshit already, goddamn it. (I mean the parent posts here, not you, eniu!uine).
/.ers would resort to such underhanded tactics. If at *least* it had any chance to hurt SCO, I'd understand, but it's not even the case!
Canopy has absolutely *NO* control over Trolltech, much less KDE. They don't own more than 5% of Trolltech. Do you know how much decision power 5% gives them? Zero. None. Zilch. Got it? Going against them will absolutely not hurt SCO. Only Linux. Want to hurt SCO? Keep using Linux and whatever your fav desktop environment is. That's *it*.
Just let the bitter anti-KDE trolls swoop as low and underhanded as they'll want, and let the rest of us move on and actually work on improving software, alright?
The only thing that this bullshit (sorry for the language again, but I absolutely LOATHE liars and hypocrites) would achieve is 1) make the people who haven't managed to beat Trolltech on technical value gloat, and 2) push the Linux desktop development back a year or two. I am absolutely appalled that some
Damn it, as if the industry's state wasn't embittering enough as it is, do we *really* need such backhanded moves among our ranks?
(And yes, I know, at least a few of the parent posters believed in all honesty that this would somehow hurt SCO, but -- come on, people... Shooting yourself in the foot hurts the foot, not the podiatrist...)
> I'd like that big projects like Moz or KDE be modular in terms
> of speed vs. functionalities
For KDE, start 'kpersonalizer', the third screen of the wizard lets you adjust a slidebar from 'Fast' to 'Heavily eye-candied'. Or you can switch to advanced mode and activate/disactivate the features on a case by case basis. This remains a bit superficial, but *does* have a significant effect on the desktop's responsiveness.
Mozilla's case is a bit different: the project's scope is twofold. 1) Produce a fast and stable HTML engine. This is Gecko. It is fast and stable. 2) Produce a full-featured environment using that engine. This is Mozilla itself. It's not what you want. Just keep Gecko in a different wrapping (Galeon...). That's how the Mozilla project does speed vs. functionalities, and it IS modular.
I have to agree. Sounds like someone with an axe to pick and yet trying to come across as an "oh look at me I'm knowledgeable and unbiased!" kind of writer. Feh.
t foundation.p hp
So, let's see.
First of all, isn't it funny how the author omits to mention how a clean and thoroughly engineered class hierarchy can help you design more modular software that will be much easier to maintain and refactor? Or do people really think that the KDE project has been improving at the pace it has by mere luck?
> Very business-oriented main Web site
That's a problem how? Do you really MIND that the site provides info for people other than geeks, along with, you know, a completely up to date documentation for each version?
> Main branch depending on one company
This is either pure ignorance or a lie. Typical underhanded FUD. The main branch is GPL'ed, and the KDE Foundation was established to keep the main branch GPL'ed no matter what happens to Trolltech.
http://www.kde.org/whatiskde/kdefreeq
> Commercial developers and people wanting portability have to pay
Commercial developpers *ARE* allowed to sell GPL apps, dammit. THIS is the way of Free Software business.
And Qt 2 is available under for GPL on all the main platforms. That's for portability. Only Qt 3 for Windows requires a commercial license (this wasn't always the case, but according to interviews I read some Windows developpers would routinely use the GPL version in closed source apps, so Trolltech had to discontinue the GPL license on Windows. Thank you, guys. Thank you so much.)
> Huge sources and binaries, library itself takes ages to compile
That's C++ for you, dude. Install a binary package next time.
Additionally, and just because I'm pissed and am most willing to nitpick the bullshit out of existence, 1) Qt ships will ALL the major distribs, and a majority of minor ones -- no need to recompile it, and 2) You don't need to recompile it either for use with older software, as the API is backwards compatible -- which is not the case of all the APIs out there, which he blissfully omitted.
> Objects not referred by namespace but simple literal prefix "Q"
And that's a problem how?
> Dominant Microsoft Windows look
This is either pure ignorance or a lie. I won't even enumerate the number of looks Qt comes with *natively*.
In fact, this is so close to the usual Qt FUD you can hear from certain people that I strongly suspect that the whole purpose of the article was a clumsy attempt at slowing the growing popularity of Qt. Well, sorry, but such retarded FUD won't last three minutes on Slashdot. We may be a bunch of bickering nerds at times, but we know our shit.
If you don't like Qt and are concerned about its growing supremacy, which is your absolute right, then contribute to competing projects to help them improve. Trying to smear shit on competitors will only make your side look desperate. Is this what you want?
Rant other. Let the moderation begin, I have karma to burn.
Not outlawed, nope. I mean, gee, the French have beheaded politicians for less than that. *g*
/. reported on that a while back? You did read the article, didn't you?
What you're referring to is the government's agencies being made to use, of all the commonly used words for email ("email", "mail" and "courriel"), the one that fits in the tongue best.
I thought
> You need to rsync quite often
:)
... under FreeBSD I can chose specific mirrors to specific packages.
" emerge somepackage
Only before updating everything. How often that is, is up to you.
> I noticed several broken ports.
It indeed happens! Is it, however, Portage's fault, or that of the package's maintainer?
>
> Try that with portage?
GENTOO_MIRRORS="http://somewhere.somedomain.net
You're welcome.
Now don't take me wrong. BSD Ports are very good.
It's just that Portage is no less good.
Python and Qt are the killer combo. I once coded during a break, just for fun (and as an example for the management, alright), a complex widget that took our head VB programmer *three days*. Only the Python/Qt widget was dynamically resizable (the VB one wasn't) and could hold any subwidget (the VB one could only hold buttons).
Now I use Python for a variety of tasks ranging from things just a little too complex to be cleanly done in Perl, to large things that usually belong in Java's sphere but are much faster coded in Python. But GUI programming is an area where it particularly shines.
... that we're really the VHS of evolution, and killed out Betamax while it was still young? :)