Submission voting, no negatives, hot-or-not style scores--that's exactly what K5 does.
I started reading/. a LONG time ago. Like, 1997. (I remember railing against threaded comments.) Finally I had enough and moved to K5 (except for a few brief visits to this cesspool) about 9 months ago. The relief is palpable.
I realize he's a troll. Nonetheless he makes good points that desperately need discussing. The current state of slashdot it pitiful--my karma dropped 30 points over a 2 day period. A 2 day period in which I posed possibly as many as 3 comments. Legitmate users are being blocked by the "lameness" filter while ascii pr0n is posted as a real comment.
I've said it many many times (as far back as 1998, IIRC) before but no one backed me up. Finally we have somebody with a factual analysis. Rob, gestapo-style bitchslaps and thought-police moderation have an effect opposite the one you want. Please, for the love of god, try something else for a while and see the difference.
I have this idiot filtered out, why are his "stories" appearing on my front page? Maybe he's coming out with a new book again, like last time this happened.
On the one hand, I'm glad MS is getting found out oftener and oftener these days and in particular I'm glad their fake "grassroots support" is being exposed.
OTOH, this sentence is ominous (where it isn't misinformed): "State law-enforcement officials became suspicious after noticing that the same sentences appear in the letters and that some return addresses appeared invalid."
First of all, same sentences are no big deal. All organized letter-writing campaigns send out a script. Some of these are "sample letters" that people just copy, some are just bullet points but nobody should be surprised if some people come up with the same sentence to express the same thought.
What's ominous to me is that state law-enforcement is checking return-addresses of citizen petitions. I'd hate to think that information was being cross-referenced with anything anywhere. For instance, should I refuse to sign a petition or send a letter if I have outstanding traffic tickets?
"Your example is a variant of the "Chinese room" argument that was once put forward by John Searle."
Say that to my face some time. Searle and I are so far apart it isn't even funny.
My example was not that "you can't tell from the outside what and what does not possess intelligence". My point was "the largely-random motivation and very small vocabulary of an 18-month old is a very slim hook on which to hang a hat." In particular, it is easily simulated by a system MUCH simpler than a Chinese Room.
"Dr. Treister-Goren says that Hal will probably attain adult-level language skills in 10 years."
This guy has obviously never heard the Minsky Theorem: "Full scale AI is always 20 years down the road."
In any case, call us when it is actually working, not when you've fooled "child language experts". I could fool experts right now with a simple cassette tape, a LOT of taped 18-month-old comments and a quick hand with a playback button. That doesn't mean my stereo is going to human in 10 years.
I am 99% sure we will eventually acheive "full AI". But I'm 100% sure it won't be via vague claims about unguessable future performance. In other words, show me the money.
"...if you've got a small device that you want to conserve power on, and only communicate small distances, Bluetooth's ideal. If you've got a lot of power, a la a notebook computer, and want to communicate 150 ft., then 802.11 is what you want. "
These aren't "different uses". Different uses would be something like "walking the dog" vs "picking my teeth" or "flying the space shuttle" vs "trimming the hedges". Both of *your* examples are "using a portable computer to communicate wirelessly".
I mean, consider this. You go to Circuit City and ask to buy some speakers. The guy there says "Well, for DVDs or for VHS?" Ummmm....does it matter? "Of course. They are totally different technologies. One uses magnetic tape while the other is an optical disk technology. Totally incompatible. Don't even try playing VHS tape sound through DVD-compatible speakers."
Obviously different devices have different *optimal* solutions. But keep in mind that no device exists in a vacuum. If laptops are running 802.11 then handhelds better do the same or I simply won't buy one. It's not like the two camps having nothing to say to each other and can be fully partitioned.
You mean I won't be able to watch QuickTime videos with IE on Linux anymore?
Of course I'm kidding: I always immediately leave any site that *requires* a plugin of any kind. If you can't take a picture of it, write some words about it or (in a rare case) make a video of it in a format everybody can read, I'm not interested.
When I worked in a cube (now I work from home--and that's NOT a euphemism for "I got fired") I used to periodically clean house: any ununsed computer equipment gets dumped in the hardware person's cube and any unused books/supplies get dumped in the "admin" (read: "secretary") person's cube. Hardware that I AM using, but I don't need to sit in front of/next to I put on the rack. Docs that I need but not right now go on the (communal) shelf.
There's really very little that I need to be able to reach out and grab without moving my chair. Everything else (work-related) can take up employer space, not MY space.
People go on and on about the features they lose by switching to e-books, but I don't find that relevant. Imagine a perfect e-book--it looks, smells, feels and acts like a book, including writable, foldable pages. But there's a little port on it for uploading content. Even in this "perfect" world I wouldn't want one. Why? Because it adds no features that are practically useful.
AFAICT, there are only two features that e-books have over regular books:
1) You can use the same physical device for multiple content. Unless you are on the space shuttle, who cares?
2) You can download books from the Internet. Great, except has anybody here tried to use Napster/Gnutella recently? From the moment you first start looking to the moment you are able to use the (correct) file how much time elapses? For me the average for even mildly popular titles is probably a week, assuming I ever DO get it. I can go the library and back in 30 minutes. I can get an InterLibrary Loan in 2 days.
Make a modified version of CodeRed called, say, CodeNap. Include in the payload an MP3 by Metallica. Wait 48 hours until it's everywhere. Now sue Microsoft because they are making money of a system that is being used to make illegal copies of copyrighted works!
I went to school with a guy (I can't remember his first name) who's last name was "Boner". But that's not all. I know you won't believe me, but nonetheless, I have to share: His dad's name was Richard.
I've been using Mozilla as my main browser for months. 0.9.2 is great (except for a tendency to crash while writing a K5 diary for some reason). But the mailer absolutely *sucks*. I've never seen anything so slow. It takes literally a full minute (or more!) to do "compose....type addresses, type subject". Has that improved at all?
...would we see the ultimate concept in fascism, eminent domain, used to combat the relatively minor problem of nude Jessica Rabbit pictures being hard to obtain. --
"Programming in C, assembler, and lower level langauges teaches more about how a computer works that do the higher level languages..."
But neither one teaches anything about computer science, which is what you are professing to defend.
Computer science is about algorithms, combinatorics, etc. I agree that an assembly programmer is likely to be better (at least in the max performance per unit machine sense) and that "today's programmers" would do well to learn some of the low-level stuff...but I don't agree you gain any insight into the fundamentals of the science through these exercises. --
I first read about Cyc in Discover Magazine back when I was a Junior in HS. I thought it was the coolest thing since frozen bread. Then I read up on the topic of AI.
I have no doubt that one day AI will come to pass. I mean that in the strongest possible terms--a piece of software will pass the rigorous Turing Test and will be agreed by all to be intelligent in exactly the same sense humans are.
I *DO* have doubts that Cyc will be at all related to this outcome. Think about it: When I say "Joe is intelligent" do I mean "Joe knows a lot of facts?" No. Do I mean "Joe is good at symbolic logic?" No. I mean "Joe pursues goals in a flexible, efficient and sophisticated manner. He has a toolbox of methods that is continually growing and recursive." Does this description apply to Cyc?
No. Lenat and friends created a bunch of "knowledge slots" that they have preceded to fill in with pre-digested facts. What do I mean by "pre-digested"? For instance, Cyc might come up with an analogy about atoms being like a little solar system with electron planets "orbiting" the nucleus sun. Great, but that analogy came about because of how the knowledge was entered. Put in "Planets Orbit Sun" and "Orbit mean revolve around" and "Electron revolves around Nucleus" and then ask "What is the relationship of Electron to Sun?"--the analogy just falls out with some symbolic manipulation. It would be a lot more impressive if Cyc made analogies based on data acquired like a human: full of noise, irrelevance and error based on self-generated observations.
Cyc is a highly connected and chock-full database with a flexible select language. As a product that's awesome. As a claim to AI it's pretty weak. --
"This also tends to mean that academically interesting, but not commercially viable, research may not be done at all."
Ummmm....what? Let's say I'm a purchaser who needs to know what the best file and print server is. If I didn't have IDC, who would I ask? A purchaser at another company or a tech who has previously setup and maintained a file and print server?
In other words, tell me the opinions of people who have valid opinions, not J. Random Loser. If that ain't "commercially viable" I don't know what is.
--
"I'm a poor student, and can't afford to make a mistake here."
It's perfect! All slashdotters believe you must own a PDA, even if you are a "poor student". They'll make suggestions til the cows come home, never once asking "why not just buy a notepad and a pencil".
Slashdot Mirror
I agree, the "news" on K5 has started to suck ever since Rusty "fixed" the submission queue. But the diaries are alive and well.
However, you are right--I come to Slashdot for the news in the morning...but then I spend the day at K5.
Submission voting, no negatives, hot-or-not style scores--that's exactly what K5 does.
/. a LONG time ago. Like, 1997. (I remember railing against threaded comments.) Finally I had enough and moved to K5 (except for a few brief visits to this cesspool) about 9 months ago. The relief is palpable.
I started reading
I realize he's a troll. Nonetheless he makes good points that desperately need discussing. The current state of slashdot it pitiful--my karma dropped 30 points over a 2 day period. A 2 day period in which I posed possibly as many as 3 comments. Legitmate users are being blocked by the "lameness" filter while ascii pr0n is posted as a real comment.
I've said it many many times (as far back as 1998, IIRC) before but no one backed me up. Finally we have somebody with a factual analysis. Rob, gestapo-style bitchslaps and thought-police moderation have an effect opposite the one you want. Please, for the love of god, try something else for a while and see the difference.
Posted by JonKatz
I have this idiot filtered out, why are his "stories" appearing on my front page? Maybe he's coming out with a new book again, like last time this happened.
...but you have to wonder about a product that is made *easier* by adding *Perl*.
On the one hand, I'm glad MS is getting found out oftener and oftener these days and in particular I'm glad their fake "grassroots support" is being exposed.
OTOH, this sentence is ominous (where it isn't misinformed): "State law-enforcement officials became suspicious after noticing that the same sentences appear in the letters and that some return addresses appeared invalid."
First of all, same sentences are no big deal. All organized letter-writing campaigns send out a script. Some of these are "sample letters" that people just copy, some are just bullet points but nobody should be surprised if some people come up with the same sentence to express the same thought.
What's ominous to me is that state law-enforcement is checking return-addresses of citizen petitions. I'd hate to think that information was being cross-referenced with anything anywhere. For instance, should I refuse to sign a petition or send a letter if I have outstanding traffic tickets?
"Your example is a variant of the "Chinese room" argument that was once put forward by John Searle."
Say that to my face some time. Searle and I are so far apart it isn't even funny.
My example was not that "you can't tell from the outside what and what does not possess intelligence". My point was "the largely-random motivation and very small vocabulary of an 18-month old is a very slim hook on which to hang a hat." In particular, it is easily simulated by a system MUCH simpler than a Chinese Room.
"Dr. Treister-Goren says that Hal will probably attain adult-level language skills in 10 years."
This guy has obviously never heard the Minsky Theorem: "Full scale AI is always 20 years down the road."
In any case, call us when it is actually working, not when you've fooled "child language experts". I could fool experts right now with a simple cassette tape, a LOT of taped 18-month-old comments and a quick hand with a playback button. That doesn't mean my stereo is going to human in 10 years.
I am 99% sure we will eventually acheive "full AI". But I'm 100% sure it won't be via vague claims about unguessable future performance. In other words, show me the money.
"...if you've got a small device that you want to conserve power on, and only communicate small distances, Bluetooth's ideal. If you've got a lot of power, a la a notebook computer, and want to communicate 150 ft., then 802.11 is what you want. "
These aren't "different uses". Different uses would be something like "walking the dog" vs "picking my teeth" or "flying the space shuttle" vs "trimming the hedges". Both of *your* examples are "using a portable computer to communicate wirelessly".
I mean, consider this. You go to Circuit City and ask to buy some speakers. The guy there says "Well, for DVDs or for VHS?" Ummmm....does it matter? "Of course. They are totally different technologies. One uses magnetic tape while the other is an optical disk technology. Totally incompatible. Don't even try playing VHS tape sound through DVD-compatible speakers."
Obviously different devices have different *optimal* solutions. But keep in mind that no device exists in a vacuum. If laptops are running 802.11 then handhelds better do the same or I simply won't buy one. It's not like the two camps having nothing to say to each other and can be fully partitioned.
You mean I won't be able to watch QuickTime videos with IE on Linux anymore?
Of course I'm kidding: I always immediately leave any site that *requires* a plugin of any kind. If you can't take a picture of it, write some words about it or (in a rare case) make a video of it in a format everybody can read, I'm not interested.
When I worked in a cube (now I work from home--and that's NOT a euphemism for "I got fired") I used to periodically clean house: any ununsed computer equipment gets dumped in the hardware person's cube and any unused books/supplies get dumped in the "admin" (read: "secretary") person's cube. Hardware that I AM using, but I don't need to sit in front of/next to I put on the rack. Docs that I need but not right now go on the (communal) shelf.
There's really very little that I need to be able to reach out and grab without moving my chair. Everything else (work-related) can take up employer space, not MY space.
Consider, there are three basic reasons for not being able to type.
1) Physical problem. Like you have no fingers or your wrists won't bend or whatever. In which you presumably *already* qualified as disabled.
2) Mental problem. Like dyslexia or not being intelligent enough to know your alphabet or whatever. Again, presumably you already qualify.
3) Education problem, i.e. you never learned how. You aren't disabled. Go learn to type then reapply for the job.
People go on and on about the features they lose by switching to e-books, but I don't find that relevant. Imagine a perfect e-book--it looks, smells, feels and acts like a book, including writable, foldable pages. But there's a little port on it for uploading content. Even in this "perfect" world I wouldn't want one. Why? Because it adds no features that are practically useful.
AFAICT, there are only two features that e-books have over regular books:
1) You can use the same physical device for multiple content. Unless you are on the space shuttle, who cares?
2) You can download books from the Internet. Great, except has anybody here tried to use Napster/Gnutella recently? From the moment you first start looking to the moment you are able to use the (correct) file how much time elapses? For me the average for even mildly popular titles is probably a week, assuming I ever DO get it. I can go the library and back in 30 minutes. I can get an InterLibrary Loan in 2 days.
Make a modified version of CodeRed called, say, CodeNap. Include in the payload an MP3 by Metallica. Wait 48 hours until it's everywhere. Now sue Microsoft because they are making money of a system that is being used to make illegal copies of copyrighted works!
I went to school with a guy (I can't remember his first name) who's last name was "Boner". But that's not all. I know you won't believe me, but nonetheless, I have to share: His dad's name was Richard.
I've been using Mozilla as my main browser for months. 0.9.2 is great (except for a tendency to crash while writing a K5 diary for some reason). But the mailer absolutely *sucks*. I've never seen anything so slow. It takes literally a full minute (or more!) to do "compose....type addresses, type subject". Has that improved at all?
...would we see the ultimate concept in fascism, eminent domain, used to combat the relatively minor problem of nude Jessica Rabbit pictures being hard to obtain.
--
Maybe the first, fully, electronic arcade game. I'm sure pinball games and so forth had flashing lights in the 50's--after all, jukeboxes did.
--
...The Green, Glowing, Radioactive Cloud Of Death
Oh wait, that's the meaning it already had...
--
"Programming in C, assembler, and lower level langauges teaches more about how a computer works that do the higher level languages..."
But neither one teaches anything about computer science, which is what you are professing to defend.
Computer science is about algorithms, combinatorics, etc. I agree that an assembly programmer is likely to be better (at least in the max performance per unit machine sense) and that "today's programmers" would do well to learn some of the low-level stuff...but I don't agree you gain any insight into the fundamentals of the science through these exercises.
--
That's an incredibly insightful tale. I'm not sure how it applies, but damn is it ever insightful.
--
I first read about Cyc in Discover Magazine back when I was a Junior in HS. I thought it was the coolest thing since frozen bread. Then I read up on the topic of AI.
I have no doubt that one day AI will come to pass. I mean that in the strongest possible terms--a piece of software will pass the rigorous Turing Test and will be agreed by all to be intelligent in exactly the same sense humans are.
I *DO* have doubts that Cyc will be at all related to this outcome. Think about it: When I say "Joe is intelligent" do I mean "Joe knows a lot of facts?" No. Do I mean "Joe is good at symbolic logic?" No. I mean "Joe pursues goals in a flexible, efficient and sophisticated manner. He has a toolbox of methods that is continually growing and recursive." Does this description apply to Cyc?
No. Lenat and friends created a bunch of "knowledge slots" that they have preceded to fill in with pre-digested facts. What do I mean by "pre-digested"? For instance, Cyc might come up with an analogy about atoms being like a little solar system with electron planets "orbiting" the nucleus sun. Great, but that analogy came about because of how the knowledge was entered. Put in "Planets Orbit Sun" and "Orbit mean revolve around" and "Electron revolves around Nucleus" and then ask "What is the relationship of Electron to Sun?"--the analogy just falls out with some symbolic manipulation. It would be a lot more impressive if Cyc made analogies based on data acquired like a human: full of noise, irrelevance and error based on self-generated observations.
Cyc is a highly connected and chock-full database with a flexible select language. As a product that's awesome. As a claim to AI it's pretty weak.
--
"This also tends to mean that academically interesting, but not commercially viable, research may not be done at all."
Ummmm....what? Let's say I'm a purchaser who needs to know what the best file and print server is. If I didn't have IDC, who would I ask? A purchaser at another company or a tech who has previously setup and maintained a file and print server?
In other words, tell me the opinions of people who have valid opinions, not J. Random Loser. If that ain't "commercially viable" I don't know what is.
--
"I'm a poor student, and can't afford to make a mistake here."
It's perfect! All slashdotters believe you must own a PDA, even if you are a "poor student". They'll make suggestions til the cows come home, never once asking "why not just buy a notepad and a pencil".
Very good troll.
--
Written by the Donald J Sobol, also the author of the "Two Minute Mystery" books.
--