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On the Question of Handhelds: iPaq Best?
A reader writes "I've been wanting to get a Linux based handheld, and was
trying to decide between an iPaq and a Yopy. This article about the Yopy
has pretty well convinced me the iPaq is the way to go, but I'm
hoping some /.ers might have some additional insight before I drop
a bit of serious cash. I'm a poor student, and can't afford to make
a mistake here."
Please tell me if a Ferrari is better than a Jaguar... I'm hoping some might have some additional insight before I drop a bit of serious cash. I'm a poor student, and can't afford to make a mistake here...
http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?MfcISAPIC ommand=GetResult&query=Newton*&categoryid=&ht=1&st =0&category2=3731&maxRecordsPerPage=100&SortProper ty=MetaEndSort
When I need to do my organization and routine clicking to add numbers, the palm and iPaq perform about as well, and are both equally convenient at my palm.
The iPaq may do simple addition and organization as well as the Palm (I haven't tried one, so I really can't say), but there's no way it's equally convenient in your Palm. The Palm PDAs sacrifice anything which doesn't directly support organization in favor of keeping the form factor small and light and the battery life long. The iPaq is good for less than a day on a single charge and is physically enormous compared to a Palm V.
Yes, the iPaq does a lot more stuff than a Palm, but I don't need most of that stuff. I don't want to edit Word documents on a screen that small and without a real keyboard. I'm not interested in surfing the Internet on something too small to do serious browsing and too large to keep in my front pants pocket. The iPaq is too large and sucks too much battery power to fill the niche that my Palm V fills: indispensable, infinitely portable life organizer. It's too small to replace a laptop, and it's too enormous and expensive to be a good MP3 player, so I really don't get its appeal.
One thing I do know. The first guy I know who bought an iPaq sold it to somebody else before he'd owned it six months.
That apps bit is quite funny since if you flash your bios you lose out on all those WinCE apps that make up the majority of the apps that work well with the iPaq. Come on don't try to delude anyone that staroffice is going to run on an iPaq.
Take a look at http://www.psionusa.com/ I've been using a Psion Series 5mx for more than a year and it fits my needs very well. The Epoc OS is a very solid alternative, and the UI is excellent, IMHO. The Good: excellent battery life (2 weeks on 2 AAs), great software, infrared backup and synch, has a usable keyboard, sound recording, and it's not the same thing everybody else has. The Not so good: the keyboard is pretty small, this model is not color, the screen backlight is not very bright.
It looks like the dust problem may be a thing of the past. Dave's IPAQ just got a new IPAQ with a dust cover inside the pen sleeve. This is one of the biggest openings into the IPAQ and seems to be how most of the dust is entering into the unit. Check out Dave's page its a great resource.
...you'll never receive it, and they won't bother to give you any information.
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What are you supposed to do with an emulator and no ROM? I realize you can get the OS from your Palm, but what if you don't have one?
Everything else can be had for free. You can download Codewarrior for Windows -- okay, it's a "light" version. You can use gcc on either windows or linux. The emulator itself is freely downloadable, as is all official documentation.
That's fantastic, hats off to Palm for providing all that. I was merely pointing out that MS is offering all that and more with less hassle. I am not attempting to fan the flames of an anti/pro-MS discussion.
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Wireless connectivity and network access are two seperate things. Connecting to a network over a cellular link is painful at best.
I don't know why I wasted my time posting on Slashdot again. I don't know why I am continuing to do so. I guess I'm a masochist. ;)
I am not down on Palms. They are great. They are not, however, in the same category as a device like the iPaq. This is not to say one is "better" than the other, they're just different.
Show me a Palm device that has a color screen, can play MP3s and videos, can connect to a corporate network, has wireless options, records voice memos, and has large storage solutions and I'll happily eat my words. Show me an iPaq that doesn't go thru batteries like a Nascar driver goes thru tires and I'll do the same.
There is nothing wrong with difference. There is nothing wrong with your personal choice of PDA. Just be aware that different folks have different wants and needs when it comes to their portable computing platforms.
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Erum, other than the fact that you can actually run linux on it you mean...?
If it's using Linux to support Free Software, I'll remind you that buying an iPAQ will profit to Micro$oft (WinCE is ALWAYS preinstalled, evn if you plan to use Linux on it).
This logic goes over my teeny little head. If you buy a Palm, are you not creating profit to Palm, Inc? MS has been a lot more open about WinCE than Palm has about their platform. You have to sign a friggen agreement to get a Palm emulator and development information!! MS will let anyone download full version of VB and VC++ for WinCE for free.
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No you don't. You get an emulator with the operating system. For free. No signing documents.
It is not merely accepting a license. You have to print out, sign, date, and mail a contract back to Palm to download the ROM.
I have developed for Palm and CE devices. I would guess you have worked with the former, but not the latter. Why then, do you feel qualified to comment on the latter?
If your reasons for trying to suggest that Palm is friendlier to developers than MS is are coming from a general anti-MS position (understandable), please say so. Otherwise stop misrepresenting the facts of the matter. Like I said before, I have no desire to get into an anti-MS fight, I am merely pointing out that is is easier for a developer to get up and running with a development and emulation environment if you don't have to sign and mail documents around.
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All part of the development environment you can download or order on CD (paying only for shipping/handling).
Perhaps I am missing something here (honestly, not being sarcastic). What good is a Palm emulator w/o an OS? Assuming you do not have a Palm device.
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If you must have a personal organizer, buy a Franklin Planner. The palm and its ilk are fine gadgets, but you can do more with paper and pencil that you can a PDA.
With paper, you can write in the margins, write faster, have your own style of note-taking instead of being told what and how to do it.
I have a palm 3x and only use it for chess. My wife, who is in sales, uses hers only to sync-up FROM her computer. She uses a pad of paper for actual work.
Pen and paper is best. You'll never have to worry about your battery dying.
use what works,
Misfit
...unless you want to give money to Microsoft for a Windows CE license.
*I* would only get a "Linux" palmtop which actually came with Linux on it, never one which came with WinCE and required hacking to get a decent OS on there. Why pay BG for stuff that you are planning to *immediately* throw away.
I just ordered an Agenda VR3 yesterday, and I would say it seems like excellent value for the money.
Go with Agenda. They are the FIRST out of the gate with Linux actually pre-installed.
http://www.agendacomputing.com
-- Mike Greaves
Upgrade your desktop computer if you have to. If you really need one, get a printer. You can do all your organising on that thing. It will also have the added benefit of being unlikely to break in under a year.
If you can enjoy the joys and "coolness" of a PDA, then you're not *really* a *poor* student, but just a poseur.
That's wierd.. maybe they changed the policy since I was last there, but after a fair delay (but no signatures / mailing) I had access to many ROMs (including their brand new (at the time) 3.5 color roms).
"'Tis great confidence in a friend to tell him your faults, greater to tell him his." --Poor Richard's Almanac
Besides, do I really want Linux on my Palm anyway? not hardly as the PalmOS is already optimized to work and it works oh so well!
My mom always said, "Jim, you're 1 in a million." Given the current population, there are 7000 of me. God help us all!
but pens don't run linux...
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I spent hours looking for this. The best portable mp3 players you can buy today are the Rio Volt and the Soulplayer (http://www.soulplayer.com). Actually, both devices appear to be the same - the Rio is about $10 more expensive. I just ordered one at buy.com with a $15 coupon.
Very good troll.
Nice troll yourself, BillyGoatThree.
I, like many many geeks out there, had incredible difficulty remembering appointments, test dates, assignment due dates, and even classes in the real world.
I tried using the notepad method, but before long, it was as jumbled as my perception of time. I tried using about a dozen personal organizers at great cost, but the simple fact is that they didn't appeal to me enough to use on a daily basis because they'd end up with a more eraser marks, cross-outs, smudges and scribbles than actual useful information. I love neatness, even if it is virtually unattainable for me.
I never would have finished my degree if it weren't for personal organizers. I bought a PalmPilot about a week after they came out, and I really believe I owe my degree, in part, to its developers.
Finally, have you priced refills for those paper-based personal organizers? If you buy a baseline Palm, you're in the black when you start your sophomore year!
If you want an out of the box PDA to do truly PDA like things, get a Palm. Palm's are simple machines with simple OS's that have long battery life and are hard to beat for that task.
If you want to carry Windows around in your pocket get a WinCE machine. You won't get the battery life but you get Windows!
If you want to have a Linux PDA, or in my case want a POSIX compatible PDA to run your own programs on, then either go with the Agenda VR3 or check out Handhelds.org on how to build your own on an iPaq. I don't like Yopy either because of the choice of W over X. Keep in mind that you are not going to get the battery life, but you can run far more complicated programs than you can on a Palm.
Just choose the right tool for your needs.
How did you sync your visor with win/wmware? vmware doesn't have support for USB yet.
Je ne parle pas francais.
Its an RCA CD-MP3 Player but it doesn't sound like a typical RCA (read it sounds good) and retails for $169. If I was going to buy a CD-MP3 playter it would be the TDK Mojo mostly for the music manager and display.
I Don't Work Here
FYI, you don't need to sign anything to get the Palm Emulator (which is under GPL) or the dev kit.
You only have if you want to download the OS (but you can aswell get it from your Palm without any problem... It works very well)
I was just playing around with it at 3-4am one Friday night. I attempted to flash v3.3 and that worked fine. So I thought, ok... I should be able to flash 4.0 and if something happens, I can go into debug mode and revert back to v3.3... needless to say, it didn't work that way. I don't get anything on the screen. So I spent a few weeks reading everything I could find on how to "re-flash" your palm... I asked in some forums and newsgroups, but didn't find anyone that had an answer. So I proceeded to do the next logical step. Open the bastard up!
After I opened it up I saw there was a small battery inside. Using my sodering tools, I disconnected the circut that ran to this battery. I left the device sit for about a month and then hooked the battery back up. Now I might have completely ruined the device, but I can't tell, because it doesn't seem to be any worse off then it was before I did this [no better, either!] So Now I've been prowling ebay for a palm iiixe since my screen is still good, I can just buy an "broken" palm and put my working screen into it for $40. I figured it'd be a good learning experience.
If you know of a way to restore the palm to a previous flash rom after an unsuccessful --- that'd be great!
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Ray Raspberry
raspberry@b3l33t.org
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Ray Raspberry
raspberry@b3l33t.org
I purchased a palm and used it for about 8 months. Then I broke it by giving the poor old iiixe an "unauthorized-upgrade" to OS4. It was nice having a handheld, and yes, I have seen the iPaq. I've even used one. Dinked around with writing documents, navigating on maps... et al. In the end, I'm enjoying my life with a piece of paper and a pencil. A couple of pieces of paper holding all the addresses/phone#/et al that I need fits into a lot smaller space than a handheld.
Sure they're cool, but think about if you really need one. Perhaps the answer is to choose neither.
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Ray Raspberry
raspberry@b3l33t.org
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Ray Raspberry
raspberry@b3l33t.org
I got an iPaq about a month after Compaq started
shipping them. I love it. I don't run Linux,
so I can't comment on that. But using it with
CE is great. It's color and easy to see. It
also syncs well over USB with my desktop machine.
I've never been a fan of the Palm, and haven't
used them all that much, so I can't really
compare. But a few friends of mine have switched
from the Palm to the iPaq and now they just rave
about the iPaq.
iPaq, Palm, Yopy, whatever... In a year and a half, you will want something better, and will be able to buy something better with the change you find in your sofa.
Man, I've found maybe 60 cents when cleaning my sofa. Can I come over and look in your sofa for "change"?!?!?
Read the article. After many requests, the Yopy is switching from W to X, and also to the 2.4 kernel. Also, only a developer version has been released. The final consumer version is expected in October. Yeah we've heard that before...
You almost certainly can't hack the Palm VIIs to work with other services, considering that it's ARDIS, and to adapt to CDPD you'd need a full-duplex airlink, plus RC4 over-the-air encryption... any other services and you're totally in the wrong frequency range. Considering that people don't "hack" European cell phones to work on GSM networks in the States (and that's a simple switch from 900/1800MHz to 1900MHz), the chances that someone's gonna mod a Palm VII to work even with CDPD are really slim.
Then again, with crank-powered linux boxes, you never know.
--bdj
If PCMCIA is important there's also the HP Jornada 720 to consider. Aside from the PC card you've got a built-in modem, compact flash slot, and an actual keyboard (a must for me, my handwriting can't be recognized by people let along machines), color display, etc. Pricey, though.
But the ability to run VNC and surf the net over my wireless 802.11b makes it all worth while.
What sort of applications are available that use the extra resolution?
read the memoware review. it has all sorts of details on that. All the stuff on the CD supports the higher res, and that includes Aportis Doc and Teal Doc.
So far (a whole week or something), every app I've tried has worked fine without a hitch. As the handera I have access to is my wife's (mine's not here yet), I haven't had a chance to go completely nuts with testing stuff yet.
impatiently awaiting mine to show up,
Michael
Steve Jobs made a BIG misteak in killing this excellent piece of hardware/software.
My vote still remains with the Apple Newton MessagePad 2100. The End of an Era!
And another great, new advertising slogan is born:
Damn, they SHOULD cost $250.00! What a bargin!
I purchased a daily planner for 25 bucks and kept the other 400 bucks for myself! Sure, it requires a little physical movement to unsnap the thing and turn pages, but it'll bring back some nostalgia from years past, and as far as I can tell, it does the same thing.
TRoy
you can spend less and have more fun with a GameBoy Advance. Just make sure you buy a light for it. You'll get tired of a PDA after a while, but with a GBA you can have endless hours of fun.
I have a palm IIIxe and an Agenda VR3. I actually use the IIIxe and not the VR3, but if I write any software, it'll be for a linux-based pda. I may end up getting a yopy though, as I prefer GTK+ (yopy) to FLTK (vr3).
BTW, the VR3 costs not that much more than a IIIxe these days, I believe. If you don't mind fltk, and plan to do some programming, it'd be a good way to go.
If you need something today, I'd take a serious look at the Agenda VR3. It's gotten twice as fast recently, since the EIP feature, and there was some talk of optimizing gcc for the machine better too at one time... It appears to have a pretty active developer community. I'm not that enthused with the FLTK gui toolkit it's using, but it could be worse.
I'm hanging some high hopes on Yopy though. GMate isn't funding Microsoft or contributing to Microsoft's marketshare numbers on every purchase, and Yopy appears to be targetting just the right technologies now: X, GTK+ and python.
I have serious distrust for Compaq. Even if they make a decent palm device, their desktop machines are total crap. I use one at work with Win95, it crashes about 5-10 times per day. Just stops working, I have used them at other companies and had the same problem. I will never buy anything from Compaq!
--
microsoft, it's what's for dinner
bq--3b7y4vyll6xi5x2rnrj7q.com
it's a sig, wtf?
My Linux host is configured with a pppd deamon listening on the IRDA port (my linux host is a Dell Laptop).
I configured my Visor to do a Network hotsync via the IRDA port.
My WIn2000 VM is configured with a Bridged and a host-only network card. The IP address for the host-only card is static.
The IP address for the Win2000 VM is configured in my visor so it can always connect with this IP (the bridged network card is configured with DHCP).
The only other important thing is to enable IP Forwarding on the Linux Host.
Who needs tools? People who would rather not mess with their PDA and leave it how it is. Believe it or not, some people buy these things to use, not to show off how many different operating systems it can run.
Mike.
--Ask a silly person, get a silly answer.
and if you want PDA applications then you would do fine with this ($249) unit. Scheduling, calendaring, notes and contact lists work very well (I have a Visor and can switch between them with no problem).
However we really wanted the Agenda to test its Linux compatibility (very nice, actually) and as a future replacement for Linux-based laptops as a network analysis tool.
Our engineers travel to many sites over the course of a day and we frequently have to go back to the car to get our laptops to make checks on their LAN. The Agenda, which does not (yet) have a PCMCIA attachment, runs a good enough Linux to do that; at least eventually.
The IPAQ would be a good choice for us but it's expensive, unfriendly to battery life, and if we buy in the USA we donate to MS.
If you want a real Linux on a PDA now at a reasonable price with good standard apps and the likelihood of future expandibility try the Agenda.
No one ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke!
If you love the Palm apps, but want something
altogether more computer-like as your PDA (ie. an ipaq), then why not have the best of both worlds and run a Palm emulator[1] on it?
I admit, that doesn't improve the battery life or the price, but it's more of an upgrade than any of the recent Palms have been...
[1] Only useful link I can find at the moment is http://www2.sis.pitt.edu/~jkabara/pilot-sync/xcop
(Score: -1, Flamebait)
Heh, gee, where've you been in the last 5 years? You think it's gonna suddenly taper off because Ballmer and Mundie are on top of it?
Anyway, I guess we can disagree. Not much point in debating it. We'll just have to see. Either way it will be interesting. Microsoft could be rendered neutered by linux, or by the Justice Department. Either outcome is Good, imo.
So why not put linux where it isn't seen. Nobody has to know that linux is running your embedded device, or your web-station, or set top box. The windows of the non-pc future does not look like windows (except for obvious branding). There wont be the win32 look and feel because it will function differently. I guess my thesis is that operating systems of the future will branch out into areas that are not so demanding of the user (like the pc is). These new areas will eventually crowd out pc in terms of market share, revenue, and development resources. Why would you want a proprietary operating system on a $50-$100 hardware device? It doesn't make sense. If the future doesn't contain a *majority* of $50-100 devices that run commodity/Free operating systems I will be very surprised.
Palm is fighting a losing battle. And needs to get rid of the PalmOS and make the PalmAPI that runs on linux, windriver, qnx, whatever, and sell it CHEAP. And DONT get rid of your hardware business. A yopi with linux running a PalmAPI Shell? Jesus christ that sounds attractive. I fucking want one. I'll fscking pay $25 extra for that palm software too. Fucking bring it on baby! It's certainly better than the $70 MS tax on ipaq, is more functional (PalmAPI interoperating with other linux apps), and has more developer interest.
Is linux a long shot? Fuck I dont know. You seem skeptical without much analytical thought, kind of gut reaction. At least I argue my case. You give predictions and opinions based on a few seconds of thought. Skepticism aint bad, but it's a two-way street, and require analitical thinking to flesh out a possible scenerio framework backed up by meaningful figures. I'm not asking for a dissertation, just something that more approaches the skeptic's ideal.
(btw, when I said Ms be broken up in earlier post, I meant, if linux isn't able to stop MS, I personally dont know what is, and in 5 years MS will become so powerful that they need to be broken up. But as I've stated here, I think linux is capable of thwarting MS. But regardless, I am waiting for the deliberations to end in the appeal to give further weight to my reasoning, one way or the other.)
So you're saying I should pay microsft for the priveledge of running linux?
No thanks.
If Compaq wasn't so pussy whipped, maybe they'd sell an ipaq without wince and with linux. But oh, that's right, their CEO is a weenie from the accounting department.
Heh, I wonder if you'll be so smug in 5-10 years when it actually is :)
anyway.
You act as if palm is in a zero-sum game. I was giving strategic advice to palm on how to explode their revenue and sell millions more than they otherwise would, and keep growing. Maybe I just have a better strategic vision than the beurocrats at palm. (hell, they came from 3com, what do you expect)
Heh, I guess you completely musunderstood me.
.NET will try to make it "the standard"... but we shall see.
I was suggesting for palm to make PalmOS an application on top of linux.
Compaq is hopelessly tied to Microsoft, and you cant buy one of their devices without paying the microsoft tax. sorry.
... But, I guess you're right. Palm could hold onto its market for some time to come. Wince is a threat, certainly, and
If you know anything about business, business decisions aren't made solely on cost benefit analysis. The best businessmen work from intuition and a keen, personalized intimacy with the details of their situation.
Aside from that, cost-benefit is important, and the strategic implications of the move to linux are based on long-term profitability; the thrust being that more marketshare ubiquitous use can only happen when the price is low enough relative to the commodity hardware in question.
Of course I am not the CEO of palm and am not intimately familiar with the details of their operations, so a cost benefit analysis from _me_ would be utterly worthless. Likewise with yourself, but I wont stop you from trying.
Hahaha.
Hrm, well, Mr Businessman stud, show me your accomplishments. 98% of business school graduates couldn't sell themselves out of a paper bag.
I glanced over your message and its pomposity was striking. Why bother fighting me? I am irrelevant.
I come up with a back-of-the-napkin idea that I thought was pretty cool, and you go ahead and deconstruct it into utter meaninglessness.
I've said it earlier and I'll say it again. The idea of having a palm application running on top of a linux handheld would be very cool. I would want one. Porting "PalmOS" to linux would be almost trivial. You could rewrite it from scratch in a few weeks/month. PalmOS is a very very simple application, there is nothing complex at all about it.
And I think it bears repeating. The amount of money saved per device is irrelevant if your goal is to sell 2x as many devices, however remote that may possibly be. I'm not passing myself off as Palm upper management, although you so arrogantly presume to have that kind of expertise.
Heh you got any more edifying knowledge for my poor poor self? I think your intensity is rather strange given the setting. Why are you so defensive about tearing down my simple ideas? Do they threaten you? Do you work for the Great Satan of Software?
If Loki Software can port somethign as complicated as a 3d first person shooting game from DirectX/win32 to Linux/SDL/GL with only around 10 people on their staff, then I think Palm could port their Palm"OS" to linux pretty damned easily.
.13micron 200-300Mhz arm cpu, color LCD (400x600(could be less when cost is a factor)), and 32 MB of ram and 32MB of flash. PalmApp would take up no more than 2-5MB of ram, and possibly 10MB of flash with a buttload of contacts, messages etc.
:)
They'd have to make some design decisions like whether to use the Frame buffer or X (I'd reccomend X), but the basic State machine that PalmOS is, appears very simple. The point about porting over the underlying infrastructure like the Database (I'd call it a binary file which stored basic structures ala struct{}) is probably not a very good one. That will be simple to port as well.
So the ultimate hurdle which you have so elegantly laid out is "Will it make us more money." You seem confident that it wont.
My vision is like this: Palm makes their linux app. They license it for $30-$50 per device. To display the Palm brand prominently on your device you have to pay a marketing fee to Palm to use their brand and logo and some kind of catch phrase like "Palm Inside". They get to decide which devices can run Palm OS to insure compatability.
A standard New-Age Palm would contain a
Because this New-Age Palm runs on top of linux, Palm's licensees will be able to bundle more sophisticated games than can be written for current PalmOS. Developers would ideally glom onto the platform and develop new "Killer" apps that will boost sales and pump up Palm's revenues.
Question: How does Palm transition to this new business model?
My idea is that they continue to sell their Old-Age Palm devices as long as they sell. They do not enter the New-Age Palm market because they do not want disrupt the market. They can continue to sell Old-Age Palm handhelds like they do now as long as people are willing to buy them. Companies like Sony and Nokia and Sharp (Dare I say compaq?! no...) would then use the Palm layer on top of linux to be able to Value Add and customize their users experience, *While still maintaining* the current Palm experience as the Main experience for users.
I think this is a win win for Palm, increases Market penetration by an order of magnitude. Gets the Marketing forces of Sony, Nokia, Sharp VERY MUCH behind the new palm platform.
See now? Am I so crazy?
I dont think so. Maybe my ideas are too revolutionary for the Old Stodgy Guard at Palm (After all they came from 3com, *gasp*). I dont know. If you want to deconstruct my Vision so be it. Show me the proof of your talents!!
are you a poor student?
or a student who is poor?
let us know which deficiency you'd like us to cater to.
and have no real necessity for a handheld. Sure it be nice to have one, I've heard that they are real chick magnets. However, pencil and paper works just fine for me. I don't have to worry about expensive memory upgrades, you can buy stacks of paper for a buck or two. Plus I don't have to worry about my batteries dying or someone trying to steal my paper. If I lose my stylus I can pick one up at almost any store for a few cents found in the couch or find one conveniently located on the floor around me.
I prefer to save my money for more critical student expenses such as beer on the weekends for that much needed human interaction people have been telling me so much about.
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Please remove your pants before replying to me
The real uses I've found tend to be storing addresses and phone numbers, writing quick to-do lists, carrying around a list of good places to eat, and making appointments. Storing personal information (usernames, passwords, accounts for your phone, complex urls, etc) is pretty useful as well. And because you sync with your PC you have a backup of all your data in case something should happen to your handheld.
The occaisional game of chess or minesweeper will help pass the time. Whoop. I know some people who like to read 'eBooks' as well, never tried that.
I also call places around the world and I've got a neat app that tells me what time it is in any part of the world. Definitely useful when. Waking someone up at 3am is a good thing to avoid.
Btw: personally I'd go for a Handspring if you absolutely want one. Yeah, you don't get to run Linux. If you really wanted to run linux as a student then you're just wanting a luxury toy.
Fsck cluebie moderators. I'll say what I want, offtopic or not. And fsck having to qualify every bloody statement just
I will believe you if you can tell me how I can pick up my email, write a response, and have a quick peek at slashdot from the middle of a field, or the back of a car, with a pad of paper? There just isn't an irda port on an a4 pad. If you only want to take notes with the thing then get something with a keyboard, I went all the way through secondary(high) school and the 2 years of Uni i did with a Psion 3a. (My handwriting is so bad that there was no point in bothering with anything else.) Now I have a palm and it's great, lusting after a ipaq, but can't really justify it.
-- You ain't seen me, right?
I can think of better options than running Delphi in 240 x 320, unless you have 6 iPaq tied together with duct tape...
"Naughty, naughty, naughty, you filthy old soomka !"
No doubt the guy who moderated this as "informative" was on crack. Or it was humour, in which case I didn't say anything ;)
"Naughty, naughty, naughty, you filthy old soomka !"
Well iPaq or Palm may be nice PDAs, but if I were you, I would wait for the release of the Sharp Zaurus in Europe and the US, at this time the OS will be Linux (more here). ./ story on the subject).
The current models run a proprietary one, but thanks to some hackers, you can already run Linux on them (read
The latest Japanese models can run Java applications too, which is damn cool too.
I know a guy owning a MI-E1 and it really kicks ass, I love the keyboard which, in spite of its small size, proves much more convenient than any character recognition I've tried before (and I believe I've tried them all!).
"Naughty, naughty, naughty, you filthy old soomka !"
You may find that a secondhand Psion 5 or 5MX, and PsiLinux to be a cheaper option. And you get a keyboard too, so much better for coommand line fans ;-)
Actually I should point out that this is not a hugely advanced port, although it is a clever one considering the raw horsepower you have on an Ipaq vs. even my 5MX.
And the rest of you, he's asking about a Linux PDA, not a PDA, so stop trying to talk him into a Palm, other than to remind him that Linux is in this case potentially limiting!
~~~~~ BigLig2? You mean there's another one of me?
I've personally owned a Palm Professional (Palm II), a Palm V, and now an iPaq, and I agree with the poster completely. I've also been blown away by how much more I enjoy the iPaq in comparison. What makes the iPaq superior:
1) Media Player. With a cheap compactflash card I have a portable MP3/WMA player.
2) RAM and CompactFlash: With 32 megs of RAM standard, and the extra CompactFlash, I can carry files with me.
3) Excel: okay pretty self explanitory, but for anyone who uses spreadsheets this alone is worth the purchase price. And yes I have tried the shareware palm spreadsheet apps, there is no comparison for actual use.
4) Character recognizer: I thought that I liked grafitti until I started with the iPaq, which is significantly more intuitive. For the uninitiated: The iPaq character recognizer has a seperate pane for lower and upper case characters instead of having to do the bloody "up" motion all the time.
4) Screen: the iPaq screen can be viewed in just about every condition: sun, shade, indoors, and everything in between. Tho I heard the m505 is just as good, but it easily beats the Palm II and V that I have previously owned.
What I don't like about the ipaq compared to the palm:
- OS crashes and requires resync to restore all data (it's happened twice in three weeks so far) - MP3 playback chews battery life - the calander and contacts functions are sometimes a tad counterintuitive
Overall: buy an iPaq -- it's worth the extra few hundred dollars for anyone who already uses Excel, or wants a portable media player on the same devices.
-rt-
-rt-
** Evil Canadians are taking over the world. Learn about the conspiracy
In my personal experience my Palm crashed more than my iPaq has.
do you have any suggestions on how to reduce iPaq crashes? both of my crashes so far have occurred during USB syncing -- and produced complete knockout of the iPaq device requiring re-flash. I suspect it may be a hardware issue as my dad's iPaq has yet to have any issues (yet). Or maybe it's because I have the thing loaded with software.... it gets much more use than my palm ever did.
-rt-
-rt-
** Evil Canadians are taking over the world. Learn about the conspiracy
I'll second this.
Basically, if you want something that looks cool, and is geekily cool to hack (e.g., Linux), the iPaq is great. However, it's not very useful, compared to everything else that's out there -- especially palm devices.
If you want something useful (but possibly boring) get a Palm. I've got a TRGPro, and it's wonderful. The biggest problem I have is that I only have a 64MB CF card plugged into it -- one of these days I'll get a 128MB card (the IBM microdrives use too much power for my tastes). Most of the available software is not open-source (but some programs, like DateBook4, are worth the modest cost). However, there are a few gems, like plucker (an open-source web page snarfer, similar to AvantGo).
Another problem is, the pen can be twisted while in the middle of the silo causing it to be "stuck" in the silo. Yet another problem not yet resolved.
We can assume he meant girlfriend. But I had to read the post twice. I had this FF8-esque image of a guy handing off his old tech to some big summoned monster.
Ah, I'm too tired this morning I think.
-- What do you need?
-- Gnus. Lots of Gnus.
there is a very good article on linux o'reillynet about ipaq running linux...
;) and with familiar dis u will have that and much much more...
compaq hosts and sponsors the handhelds.org site, which is a community resource center, primarily for developers, hosting Web, FTP, CVS, and mailing-list services.. the site focuses on linux under strongarm SA11xx processors, such as the ipaq and the yopy, but does not mention work on other processors such as MIPS or 68xxx...
there are few distributions running well on ipaq:
#1# familiar distribution, a lightweight package with python and XFree86 with anti-aliased fonts, using the blackbox window manager. familiar also includes a new packaging system called ipkg, which is like RPM or DEB packages for desktop Linux. compaq had at the beginning its own hh distribution but after a while it swap to familiar...
#2# an extension of familiar is initimate... its goal is to provide "full-blown" distribution including doom, konqueror, mpeg players and stuff like that... but for all of that u will need extra microdrive coz by default ipaq doesn't have enough space...
there are few others but there are not free like trolltech's Qt Palmtop Environment or transvirtual technology's pocketlinux which goal is to provide a java runtime instead of pure linux environment....
imho when u have ssh (included by default) and rxvt w/ gprs modem it is enough to go with it
For a while I did just that. The organizer software that comes with the Palm is excellent.
Ok, I have done a little research in the past day, and I have found that the Palm m505 looks nice, and appears to be nice, but nobody seams to put it on they're top list. I dunno, let me get to the point here. This is a review done on the Agenda VR3 from O'Reilly, and it doesn't look /nearlly/ as good as I has hoped. Doesn't even have color. shrug
The iPAQ, from reading everyones post, also sounds disappointing. Specially with you only being able to push down one button at a time.
Ok, what PDA should I get, and how would I put linux on it?
-later diversereality
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but "poor student" and "buying an iPAQ" just don't seem to fit!
FWIW, I've just bough a Visor, and it's sweet!
I have a Palm IIIc (bought after my Palm III mysteriously quit turning on last year). The batteries in it last a couple of weeks between recharging, unless I'm doing a lot of reading, so the battery life isn't too bad there either.
3. Price...
Agreed. Even my color version was less than $300.
And you probably won't need color, either.
I bought the color Palm for one reason only - I have three preschool age children and people were telling me what a horrible father I was not to have photos of my kids in my wallet. Now I do. Also, I have to say the backlit screen is very easy on the eyes for reading (I've read several Project Gutenberg books courtesy bibelot).
--
Sleep is just a poor substitute for caffeine, anyway. -Bob Lehmann
Last I heard, Compaq still hasn't fixed the fact that it can't register both buttons being pressed at once. In fact, one of my friends was blacklisted by them just because he asked about it.
I just picked up a Diamond Mako, which is pretty much the PSION Revo Plus. I got it from Staples for $150, the www.diamondmako.com has it for $300, the Psionusa.com sells thier RevoPlus for $400. I think Staples is getting rid of thier stock since the Mako isn't selling and Diamond is losing money, they even threatened to bomb the europe market with thier makos. It has 16mb of ram, keyboard, a generic word and excel and database program and your basic agenda and other PDA functions, comes with Opera and and email client to use with your IR phone to log online. Worth looking at.
I finished a project with mine and left it locked in a drawer unused for about a month. When I picked it up again last week, the battery was dead, and it had lost its configuration. Does anyone know if this is expected behavior, i.e., does it need to be in the cradle to prevent this from happening? It's kind of an expensive device to just leave out on your desk all the time.
--
Oh, yeah, it's not easy to pad these out to 120 characters.
A bit of background first: I'm an embedded Linux developer, working on StrongARM platforms. So obviously, the iPAQ interested me. Not only that, but my company bought several and asked me to work with them.
WinCE on the iPAQ is nice, but nothing special. Sure you can play MP3s on it, but I found that I preferred playing MP3s on my HipZip player - the media is certainly cheaper than a compact flash card, and the battery life lasts much longer. The built in PIM features on the iPAQ are "OK", but nothing special. I disliked the address book and calendar apps. I also disliked the iPAQs method of memory management, but that's the developer in me, being picky.
So I tried Linux from handhelds.org on it. Nice job w/the port, and it's true, it gives you full Linux functionality (with X!) in a PDA form. Only thing, I don't *need* full Linux in a PDA. The iPAQ is just too much computer for a handheld, and too little computer for a desktop.
I ended up purchasing a Palm Vx at a great discount (because of the introduction of the m500 series) - and it does everything I need, and more.
All in all it's a matter of personal taste - for me, the iPAQ was expensive overkill... you might think differently.
You can program your Palm in Java! Check out WabaJump, Waba, and Jump.
I had a Palm Vx, and recently upgraded to an Ipaq (the color screen makes a huge difference, and looks much better than the Palm m505).
Palm OS has a lot of great software, though, and there were applications that I missed (such as Vindigo).
Solution- they are now working on a Palm Emulator that will run on your Ipaq- so even if you like the Palm datebk, address book, etcetera more, you can run them on your Ipaq.
Palm Emulator Brighthand Discussion
(One sad thing about the project is that many WinCE users will be running around yelling "can your Palm do that???")
I've been a student, and I could probably have afforded one. But I still couldn't justify getting either a Palm or PocketPC. Even now, when I have a job. When I was debating myself on whether to drop the (then) $500 on a PocketPC, someone asked me to ask myself if there was really a need for it. Would it allow me to do anything that I can't do now? Sure, it would be nice to have, but it wouldn't really solve any problems for me....
Ever heard of a program like this for the palm?
    I am quite amused by the horde of disgruntled handheld users. I myself am still quite dedicated to my HP200LX Palmtop. Yes, it has a crappy display, yes it has a 8MHz CISC processor, yes it was somewhat expensive (~$500 when I bought it), and yes it is very old and is no longer made by HP.
    However, the 200LX runs on 2 AA batteries that last for a few weeks (note battery life is not in hours or minutes). It has a PC card slot that allows you to stick a modem, ethernet card, memory card, etc. in it. It runs any DOS app within it's processing power, which is a considerable amount of software. Moreover, after using it for a while I can type on the 200LX's tiny keyboard faster than I could ever write on a piece of paper.
For me, the logical criteria for a ubiquitous electronic aide do not include processor speed or display resolution, other than as a possible subset or afterthought. Rather, the important issues are:
- Battery Life: Who cares how nice the display is if you can only use it for a few hours before recharging it? If you can't depend on the device working all the time, are you going to use it for anything important?
- Compatability: Proprietary software with limited functionality turns most decent handhelds into paperweights
- Quick and Efficient User Interface: Is there any real explaination why it is so difficult to enter any reasonable amount of data into a device that is designed for the very purpose of data storage/retrieval?
    The problem as I see it is that handheld companies cater more towards some sort of romanticised image of a technology-enabled utopia, so they worry too much about superficial issues rather than the basic practicality. But then again, they always seem to have hordes willing to waste their money on shiney little bits of metal and plastic.It's not handwriting recognition if you have to learn little symbols to scribble in that miserable little space at the bottom of the screen.
I would only own a palm if I could run the Newton OS 2.0 on it...Haven't tried the linux hr stuff yet, but it would have to be better.
Of course it has usable software pre-installed. What else would you expect? It's a personal digital assistant, not a stripped-down x86 "box" made for hobbiest tinkerers.
I am a frequesnt user of my trusty old Palm 3, and I must admit it makes about as good an organizer as you could want, for what it does: addressbook, memos, to-do list, and calendar. However, no is going to say that PalmOS is equal to the capability of WinCE. Sure, there aren't that many apps for WinCE yet, but there are plenty that already exist that beat out those on PalmOS (example: ssh on WinCE, Linux on the PocketPC). Now, for most people, having Linux on your PDA is not really useful. Only a geek such as myself (and most of you) would get any pleasure out of it. So I really applaud the effort Compaq has put into supporting (and developing) Linux on PocketPC. Of course, I just bought an HP Jornada :)
:) So, if anyone has any updated info on Linux for the Jornada, please post a reply.
First of all, you can get them for pretty cheap on EBay. Second, they have the built-in CF slot, and are smaller than the IPaq without it. And third, I don't need Linux on my PDA. However, if HP got off their asses, and a version came around for it (which I really think is inevitable) I would almost certainly install it. Making so it fits on a 64M CF card would rock, you could boot it off there
Thanks,
Lac
--
Vidi Vici Veni
Vidi Vici Veni
Thanks for the sig
You could always tatoo the really important information and clues on yourself. Remember Sammy Jenkis.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
Syncing with Microsoft's software sortof defeats the purpose of a Linux handheld, don't you think?
---
I think the perfect setup that would be most convenient is the following:
Palm m505 - it's got color, good in light, looks awesome, fast, and simple
Feather-light notebook - here I'm a bit puzzled - I am thinking Sony - one of their 10 inch laptops, but if someone could advice another one - I would be more than glad. The main characteristics - good display, very very light, pretty small to carry around. You would use mainly for document writing, spreadsheets, emailing and light coding
Worstation - good PC. ofcourse dual flat screen, killer cards, enough ram.. I don't have to say anything more.
If you synchronize this whole thing correctly, you'd have one sweet setup.
http://dtum.livejournal.com
The company I work for uses M$ Outlook 2000 for email and schedule stuff. The one question not answered in the review is, can YOPY or the iPAQ sync with my Outlook schedule and email. "Alive without breath, As cold as death, Never thirsty, ever drinking, All in mail never clinking." J.R.R.T.
Take this for what it's worth, but my IPaq just died in less then a year. It won't work at all.
Great post, but probably no one knows what it means!
You can! It's slow though.
I had a Visor for a while but ended up selling it. Why?
I've had better luck with my Day Runner. I especially like the business/casual edition.
Plus, it's much cheaper and completely upgradeable.
"Power corrupts. PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
K.. here's my opinion. The pros and cons.
Pro's-
1. They are realy light.
2. They have a realy nice lite.
3. Memmory is easily expandable.
4. You can play quake on it!
5. The text is realy clean and crisp.
Con's-
1. The face plate is made of GLASS and if it breaks.. Like mine did. They don't replace it under warranty.
2. Windows CE is built onto the ROM
3. When in bed. The light is extremely bright from the sides and keeps your wife up at night.
------88-------- Sig? Sorry, I don't smoke.
It all depends on what your usage is...
I have a Psion Series 5mx which does everything I need. It has organisers, good spreadsheet, word processor, keyboard, email, web browser support, it integrates with KDE and/or linux console and/or Windows nicely, files are easily convertable, it kicks ass over my old HP48GX calculator which is about the same size, programming is easy due to the documentation of the Epoc32 OS. It even comes with a java runtime enviroment designed specifically for the 5mx.
No, it doesnt run linux that I am aware of, however, it also doesn't run Microsoft Windows. Thus you avoid the MS Tax.
I have read about some projects to try and get linux running on this machine, however, why bother? The only reason would be for nerd factorage. The Psion series 5mx is quite simply one of the best handheld PCs out there. It just hasn't recieved as much CNN coverage as the palmOS... the poor old English still haven't learnt to advertise (the Spice Girls are an exception)
The only real drawback is the lack of "kewl" games like quake, however if you want a games machine then get a gameboy advance. There are many good RTS games for the Psion Series 5mx though, I believe Sim City has been ported, along with a red alert clone.
Try www.series5mx.com to find out even more about this great little machine. In ten years time it might be looked upon in a similar light to the way we now look upon the original gameboys... a bloody awsome piece of technology.
Does it go on forever?
It's fascinating to think how many pounds of paper the perpertual calender in a PDA replaces...
;-)
As enviro-friendly as it sounds, replacing those pounds of paper with pounds of dead batteries, isn't something Mother Nature is likely to thank you for
From hell's heart I fstab at /dev/hdc
It can sync to Gnome PIM (gnomecal and gnomecard, which is what I use), and for KDE it syncs with the KOrganizer stuff (which I'm not familiar with). No Evolution yet, but it is in development (or why not take a crack at it yourself, the syncing software is open source and available from their CVS!)
From hell's heart I fstab at /dev/hdc
Uh, what are you talking about? The only time you need to sign an agreement is if you want to download the actual ROM image. Okay, also if you want source to the OS.
Everything else can be had for free. You can download Codewarrior for Windows -- okay, it's a "light" version. You can use gcc on either windows or linux. The emulator itself is freely downloadable, as is all official documentation.
Sean.
No you don't. You get an emulator with the operating system. For free. No signing documents.
Okay. How do I get the operating system for free?Unless I'm misunderstanding this, it sounds like there's no real difference between Palm and WinCE in this matter.
If you have a copy of the Palm operating system, then everything else you need is free and you don't have to sign anything.
If you don't have a copy of the Palm operating system, then you have to print out sign and mail an agreement to Palm. What do you have to do for WinCE? Can I download the OS? Do I need to buy it? What needs to happen?
With Palm, the emulator is immaterial. It's free. It's the OS you have to work to get. You say that I get the emulator with the WinCE OS. Fine, but how do I get the OS?
Sean.
My HP Jornada 548 also has "HP task switcher", which does what you mention about the iPaq's 'Q' button. It only has 32MB of memory, but with the built in CF slot, that is less of an issue [especially since you can get a 128MB CF card for $80 shipped]. The durability of the Jornada is second to none.
The one area it loses ground is the slow 133MHz SH3 processor. It's fast enough to do your everyday tasks, with limited multi-tasking, but playing Quake would be a bit slow. Hopefully, HP's next Jornada will have something with a little more power beind it.
-bZj
prompt> finger Down8
Login: Down8 In real life: I am a Viking.
.sig
I have been using a Palm handheld for over 3 years now and love it, but that is because it meets my needs. (Small, long battery life, cheap, great organizer and it runs AvantGo.) But if my needs were to change, then I might need an iPaq.
Once app owners catch up to using the expansion slots vs. normal system memory it will be even better.
The problem with running Linux on your PDA is that it's sort of like attacking a fly with a sledgehammer. PalmOS does the basics and does them fairly well. No, it's not a multitasking OS that can run web servers and connect to mass storage devices (without a little help from third party vendors anyway). It does do a pretty handy job of keeping track of the information you'd want to keep around you. It has a TCP/IP stack that allows it to talk to other systems with not too much trouble. I know it's sort of passe to ask "what more do you need?" but especially on a limited budget, you need to decide what features you'll really use and what's just fluff that you will never ever touch.
To the contrary, I was at a conference last week, and some guy two rows back was using a Palm with a keyboard. Sure enough, whenever the speaker would say anything interesting, there would go the clackety-clack of his keyboard. In fact I am not sure whether or not the noise comes from the keyboard action, or from his fingers hitting the keys, and I am not sure if he was an especially heavy typist, but it proved constantly distracting at all the wrong moments.
I can't stand people who sit in classes/meetings/conferences taking notes while typing away noisily on a keyboard. They might as well be listening to headphones that are turned up enough that neighbours can hear. Even worse is when you get more than one of those people nearby you at the same meeting...the cacophony can be damn distracting. At least using Graffiti on the palm doesn't disturb and distract people within earshot. Decorum at the expense of technology, I suppose.
Out of the box, you're right. But in the long run, I doubt it.
Which will have longevity.. a device built for specific features, or a device which can accept linux and have all the software upgradeability of a full-fledged linux box? As times change, you can change the software to reflect your different desires for it.
Currently, there's an excellent foundation for 'organizer' software being developed in Python+Gtk for the ipaq called "Framework". "Mingle" is the result of its use (it currently only does contact list support albeit very well). If the current version of Mingle is any indication, it will be an excellent organizer.
But to me that's beside the point. Under linux, the ipaq is a full-fledged linux box which all the same potential. Taking advantage of its form-factor is both exciting and fun!
I'm sure Compaq's contest annonucement yesterday will only expedite an already large base of support from the linux community.
http://linuxcontest.cpqidea.com/
A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess? - Joshua (Wargames)
FYI, I have xmame v0.36 running very well on ipaq with stinger gamepad is my input device.
Stargate & Joust rock nicely.
A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess? - Joshua (Wargames)
Its not Linux based OS, but if you want to develop applications for your handheld on a Linux desktop you have options.
For Java, take a look at IBM's Visual Age Micro Edition. It's a fair Java IDE for the J2ME stuff. Free if you don't need the collaboration tools offered in the $99 pro setup. Runtime... well that will cost you if you want to sell the apps to others, but that is another issue. They have a JVM (called J9) that supports Palm, WinCE, and a few other platforms (actually, they support ARM, x86, MIPS, etc., but you know what I mean). You pick your GUI setup based on the platform.
I know there are tons of other options out there for Palm OS application development using Linux as well. I started coding palmtop apps in C/C++ - there are Linux based commercial IDE's that you can get as a student.
Don't forget about vi/emacs/nedit/any other IDE either...there are some fantastic libraries out there if you want to go the GCC route.
+++ UGUCAUCGUAUUUCU
I was in the boat sailing into PDA land a few weeks ago. I did my research and decided to turn the boat around. Why you ask? Well all PDA's have a problem that I could not live with.
:). You can download the emulator from Palm, you might have a little more trouble though finding the ROMS, but keep searching. You will find some.
1) For starters I only wanted a color one, so that ruled out about 80% of all PDA's.
2) I really liked the Visor Prism except for the proprietary expansion. We all know what expansion means (higher prices for consumers and lower quality goods).
3) The IPAQ was nice also, but I would never let myself pay for a Microsoft OS. Whether you are gonna use Linux on it or not does not matter. You are still gonna pay for the CE License.
How did I get my boat to turn around so quickly? Well I went out and got an emulator. I played with each model quite a bit until the newness wore off. Now I see no need to even have one. Saved me 400 buck
Taxes and Lazy People are best friends.
In my personal experience my Palm crashed more than my iPaq has.
What do you know I wrote a novel
Well you obviously haven't been keeping up with technology. Microsoft Pad of Paper 2000 (scheduled for release in late 2004) is going to come with full instructions for drawing spreadsheets and drop down menus and paperclips with EYES! It is even rumored to support hardware that implements the erase functionality.
However, I eventually got real tired of even the better-than-average handwriting recognition in the Palm. Have since installed the fitaly hack, and now that's not a problem either (or least, not so much, not so often).
So, you can feel smug being a traditionalist all day long, I'm not going back to dead trees any time soon --- not until they pry my PDA... you get the idea...
Ron Obvious
Still, at this point, we're so far off topic that it might be well to consider the environmental impact of the bandwidth we're wasting, the electrons we're utilizing that could be out there doing something more natural (like zapping trees, whatever), and the poison on the hard disks whose space we're taking up...
Ron Obvious
There is a competitor to the iPaq, check out:
http://www.palmaxtech.com/specsp6c.htm
It has a full PCMCIA slot which is a nice feature.
However, I use a Palm 3ce and it does exactly what I have come to expect from my old organizers.
If I had to use my own money I would get a IIIxe without even blinking (I will probably have to hit eBay since there are very few of these still around). If I could afford it then I would get the iPaq, but I would be completely happy with just the IIIxe.
Pedro
Pedro
----
The Insomniac Coder
If you're a poor student, don't buy one. Use a paper and a pencil and stop wasting money on dumb toys. Alternatively, buy one, but don't whine about being poor.
Even if Linux may be a little overkill for a handheld, you also get the mentality that goes along with the Linux Kernel and the many GNU software utilities. Computers are a Science not a Commerce.
;-)
I never used to give that much thought until I had to deal with a commercial software company that produced titles for the Franklin Ebookman, as well as the Palm...Beiks.com. Here is part of an email I recieved from them after asking too fix a game they gave away for free (not open-source)...This is after I tried to explain that they actually did benefit from that game from advertising....
"Thank you for the feedback.
You are technically right, of course, but in real life it is a little
different. For us, anyway.
I do not have enough time to explain all the reasons we do not want to spend
more time with Blockout. For the very same reason (lack of time/resources)
we prefer saying things sample and straight rather than the way customers
are used to do. Think of it: there are thousands like you who want to see
one or other thing and want it for free. America is just about to realize
how wrong it was to spoil customers.
We do believe we do our best for our customers and we also believe that part
of that is not keeping the de-facto standard way of spoiling them with false
promises and fake attention.
We indeed do not have interest in developing Blockout further and we indeed
can not even charge for it, because this would only get us in trouble with
Tetris Corp. down the road.
Time will tell if our way of seeing and doing things is better. Mind you, we
do not offend our customers or decrease our desire to help them. It is just
that we hold on to the simple truth. The truth is we are a business
organization and we do care about the money. Do not know about you, but I am
personally too angry with all the companies that keep telling me how much
they care about me and then - for example - keep holding me for half an hour
on the phone before somebody who doesn't have a clue of support will have to
tell me they will review the request upon first chance.
Adam Smith has said it quite right: if we focus on our interest and do what
we want, the positive impact for the society will only grow. Well, I
paraphrased it a bit
Sincerely,
Natalia Hadjieva
Customer Service
support@beiks.com
www.beiks.com "
Bottom Line is that I use Free(dom) Software exclusively at home now, and I am trying to use it as much as possible at Work.
If it's $20 then I can live with it and install Linux on an iPAQ. If, on the other hand, it's $100 then that's a different cauldron of octopus.
Any answers anyone?
Backward%20compatibility%20is%20over-rated
Last month I gave the Pro to my GF
You gave your girlfriend a four year old PDA?
She must be a luddite. My wife would beat me to death with the four year old PDA and spend the life insurance on an iPAQ or two weeks in Tobago or whatever....
The best of luck in your relationship sir!
Backward%20compatibility%20is%20over-rated
I decided to go for a handspring. It uses palm software, and seems to be more extensible. At the time it was much cheaper than the equivilant palm. I use my handspring visor delux with linux via gnome-pilot, which works flawlessly, even for MAL. (I've had much more trouble syncing with my wifes Mac at home...)
A few of the developers are compiling all of the Agenda apps as Snowed (with static memory locations). This has sped up the Agenda quite noticeably.
Perhaps I don't want to be bothered to drop the thing into its recharger ever single night. Thats one more thing to worry about that I don't want to.
When you get right down to it, it's a tool to help you manage information. I choose palm because helps me manage information very well at a reasonable price. I see little relative utility in alot of touchy-feely colors and reassuring "plink" sounds. But if the presentation of your data is important enough to warrant it, choose the CE option. If you just want the facts, the palm is the more reasonable choice. It's all about what you think you need.
How sleepless is the egg, knowing that which throws the stone forsees the bone.
My notepad & pencil (dead tree version) is faster than a PDA.
--
Every bloody emperor has his hand up history's skirt [Peter Hammill/VdGG]
Palm has no Linux distro, and never will. A Palm is just a paper pad, but an iPaq is a meal!
"Curiosity killed the cat, but for a while I was a suspect."- Steven Wright
I agree, for the most part. I could never justify the cost of a PDA for a number of reasons. First, organizers are significantly cheaper, but you do have to buy one each year. The things I'd use a PDA for (meetings, phone numbers, etc) can be done just as well on a pad of paper or in my watch for far cheaper. Being a cheapsake, this is attractive to me. :)
I'd still consider getting one if they were more reliable though. I have yet to have heard of someone who hasn't had to buy a new Palm (or Handspring) within 3 years of buying their previous one. The screen usually goes bad and stops working. I know someone who got a new Palm III and the screen came broken. If Palms lasted as long as computers, or I didn't have to buy one every 3 years, they'd be more attractive. If I have to buy one every three years, there's not much advantage a PDA has over an organizer. The cheapsake in me will stay with an organizer in this case.
Has anyone had a PDA last longer than 3 years without problems?
Khyron
yrs,
Ephemeriis
"Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
The Agenda is a great toy. Just needs some polishing around the edges in terms of applications. And it is less than 1/2 the price of the ipaq/yoppy... But alas no expansion slots yet. Berowne.
I was going to pull out my Palm VIIx to reply to this, but why waste valuable battery life...
Help find a cure for cancer!
If you're looking for something to keep your schedule on and handle light office duties, I'd definitely recommend the iPAQ. I've been using one for quite a while, and while it has its problems, it's pretty useable. Compaq initially had some hardware problems and trouble with the color displays, but I think they've fixed all of that. The newer models have 64MB of memory (instead of just 32), and should be more useable.
If you just want a handheld so that you can say you have a handheld, I advise that you wait. One of the most powerful aspects of these new computers is their ability to make wireless connections to the internet. Right now, there are basically two choices -- CDPD in the US, and GSM in Europe. Neither gives you a tremendously fast or reliable connection. The communications industry is in the process of deploying better capability, but since much funding has recently been yanked from those projects, there will be a longer wait. But if you can hold on until some of the dust settles, I think you'll be happier in the end. Also, if Palm wants to stay in business, they'll need to come up with something that tops the "Pocket PC." If they are successful, you could see a really cool technology war.
Also of interest are some of the new screen technologies that could eliminate the need for a backlight and make the units even slimmer. If hope turns into reality, devices with better displays and lower power requirements will one day be available.
If your primary reason for getting a PDA is to run Linux on it, you may want to be careful. Making a mistake while installing Linux on the iPAQ can render the device completely unusable, and I wouldn't count on Compaq being kind enough to fix it for you when used in such a manner.
GreyPoopon
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GreyPoopon
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Why is it I can write insightful comments but can't come up with a clever signature?
If you want to try and upload a manuscript you're working on to a pad of paper, then download your changes back to your computer without blinking, you probably don't want a pad of paper. And I've never seen a pad of paper play mp3s...
Again, coming back to 'poor student...'
When I was in school (I'm able to say 'was' now, cool), I ended up shelling out CDN $500 for a Palm III. Damn it was worth it! I stopped missing exams, assignments, etc. Pencil & paper never cut it for me, except for all the doodling I would do with it. Even the cheapest Palm is as useful as my Palm III, and trust me, if you think you need it, it will serve you well.
A Palm's a great tool for a student, even a poor one. I've been using computers all my life, and can't find myself organized unless I do it digitally. I'm actually using it much less now than I did in school; anyone who says students don't need such things are being ignorant.
iPaq probably does serve as a better toy, but get what you need. I'm sure a Palm-based device makes a better organizational tool for the price.
Moderators should have to take a reading comprehension test.
As an organiser the power of an iPAQ is definatly not needed. I'll give you that. If I used my iPAQ for JUST my school schedule and some phone numbers I would have kept using my Palm IIIe. The thing is, I wanted a device that I could store numerous books that I read on the bus. I read the newspapers while I'm waiting for a class from the economist (300k), the onion (56k), various movie review sites (200k)...all in all just daily new that I wish to read totals about 4 mb. I also use my iPAQ as a map. I use Pocket Streets and have a 1mb map of Ottawa, Canada - with most street addresses. That has has saved me a lot of hassle - I just write the address in and it tells me where it is, even printed maps can't do that.
As for recreation, I do play some games, and I would honestly say with the exception of iGolf none of them would be hard to get on the Palm Pilot - with the exception of the NES Emulator.
I have had good experiences with the iPAQ although it is an annoyance that the IBM 1gb microdrive manufactured after Jan 29th, 2001 currently doesn't work with the iPAQ so I've had to refrain from being able to rip dvds and have a good collection of mp3s to listen to while on the go.
-CuylerEverybody talks about Palm vs. Ipaq vs. Agenda vs. Yopy. Well, how about Psion? I have the Revo, and I love that thing! Excellent screen, excellent keyboard to type in information (graffiti? no thanks!). Only thing missing is the backlight, and it really isn't as bad as you might think it is.
And how about the Nokia 9210? Well, for now, that's only for euros. Color-screen, keyboard, built-in GSM-phone... What more do you want?
I have fiddled with some Palms, and I fail to see the attraction. But I guess to each accodinfg to his needs, and Palm doesn't satisfy my needs.
Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
Is it possible to develop IPAQ apps under the .NET framework?
.aspx web pages, but I'm wondering if it's possible to, say, write C# and then compile it to IL and then run natively on an IPAQ?)
.NET SDK last night, and while I know there's a mobile SDK that generates WAP, I'm wondering if it's possible to compile down .NET apps to the IPAQ platform.
(I realize it can go to
I know Microsoft released beta 2 of the
Well.... I've actually seen an iPAQ RUNNING linux. Maybe this is old news, but that's enough reason for me to go with the iPAQ.
neither the yopy nor the ipaq are a good choice at this point in my opinion: you pay a premium for something that ends up being less functional than a palm for organizing, and something that isn't high resolution enough for comfortable note taking or reading.
until the ipaq actually comes out in a linux version, i would not buy it anyway: microsoft and gartner count every unit shipped as a windowsce machine, although many of the units actually run linux. if compaq can't be bothered to come out with an official linux-based unit, they just aren't commited enough (and you may fry your ipaq trying to install linux on it yourself as well).
For me, between the two in question, the iPAQ has it over the YOPY on these criteria. I made a similar calculation myself and am happy with my Visor Deluxe (with a brand new VisorPhone Springboard module!) for now, expecting to part with it in a couple of years.
Inventor of the LOLbalrog meme.
you'd be surprised as to what you can do with a pad of paper...! Make paper airplanes(try doing that one with your palm pilot)! Also, a pad of paper won't break if your dog grabs it in his teeth and drags it around the house. Simply go to CVS and buy another one for $1.50! Paper is good for wrapping your used gum in (have you ever tried to wrap your gum in a palm pilot?). Personally I prefer an mp3 player for listening to mp3s.
As i said in my previous post, if you really feel like you need it, go ahead and get one. Just don't go out and buy one if you're not sure you will use it a lot.
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...saw the use for these things. In my opinion a pad of paper and a pencil cost much less, are faster to use, and are more reliable. Plus there's almost no chance of a pad of paper getting stolen. Unless you're going to do a lot of work on one of these and you are sure you will need it, don't get it!
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hello, i've been an iPaq user for more than a year now... the device is neat... it has a lot of potentials... i'd recommend it to anyone who wants to explore those potentials (e.g. full web browsing, CF cards, Bluetooth, wireless networking, etc...) but if you are not planning to go beyond the basic PDA function then it would be a waste of your money... if money is the issue and you're just going to use basic PDA functions and run some calculation programs, stick to the "most basic" Palm device... if "coolness" is the issue, they have that new Jordan Palm coming out... :)
beautiful:http://www.coolmel.com good:http://kosmicbloggers.blogspot.com true:http://www.projecttrinity.net
Picking a PDA is not unlike picking a PC, due to many similarities.
First, you should choose which operating system you prefer.
Without over-generalizing, PalmOS has a task-specific focus. Hence, there is only rudimentary multi-tasking, and you cannot run two full programs at once. That said, most Palm programs accomplish what they are going to accomplish simply and quickly. I have found that I can accomplish my scheduling tasks on a Palm much quicker than I can on a Windows CE based machine. (Yes, I know that they are called "Windows Powered" but they still run Windows CE.)
Windows CE on the other hand is power focused. Multimedia is no challenge to the current crop of CE devices, due to the large amount of memory in most machines. In addition, CE devices have much faster processors than Palm devices. This leads to superior video speed when dealing with a color device. The built-in applications with CE are not focused on the scheduling capabilities of the device, unlike Palm.
Once you have picked your OS, then you can move onto devices. For the Palm corner: there are basically 4 contenders: Palm (duh), Handspring (the Visor line of handhelds), Sony, and TRG/Handera. (For the most part, battery life is not an issue and will not be mentioned for the Palm handhelds.) I will quickly outline the difference of the brands:
Palm: Sets the standard. You know that your device will be supported by all hardware/software innovations to come. However, the screens leave much to be desired. In addition, the SD slot initiative of the new m50x devices makes it difficult to buy cheap memory addons for the device. In addition, many Palm devices nowadays do not sport Flash ROM, necessary to upgrade the OS.
Handspring: Handspring has a great selection of handhelds, including the primo Prism, which IMHO has one of the best screens on any PDA for its size. Handspring's Springboard expansion slot is very powerful, but proprietary, therefore making most additions rather expensive. My primary concern with Handspring is the lack of upgradibility concerning the OS. You can only use "system patches" written specifically by Handspring, and cannot upgrade the OS due to the lack of Flash ROM.
Sony: Sony's latest offerings are very impressive, with the screens being some of the sharpest examples of both black+white and color around. Sony devices sport the Memory Stick. Memory Stick technology, while being proprietary, has been around for a little while, therefore it is an established medium for storage. However, you cannot run installed programs directly from the Memory Stick, limiting its functionality. Sony also has a proprietary double-resolution screen incorporated into the latest stock of color handhelds. I do not personally put much stock into this technology, since it has yet to be standardized and incorporated into the OS by Palm.
TRG/Handera: The Handera 330 is a long-awaited device, and rightly so. Its CompactFlash slot capability is a carryover from the old TRGPro. The CF slot does not suffer from the same restriction of not being able to run programs directly from it as the Sony devices do. This one feature is very significant. This will allow you to expand your device infinitely and cheaply. In addition it also has a SD/MMC slot that may be useful in the future. The 330 has a larger screen pixel-wise than the other current models (excluding the color Sony with the double resolution.). In addition, the input panel normally dedicated to Graffiti is now software controlled vs silkscreened, making a significantly larger area available for whatever application you are running. The downside to this is that it is proprietary technology that needs special programs to take advantage of its capabilities.
For CE, the choices are fewer. The major manufacturers are HP, Casio, and Compaq.
HP: HP has a long history with CE, and therefore knows quite a bit about it. It unfortunately did not make much use of it in its latest crop of slow handhelds. The screens are decent. The bundled software leaves much to be desired. Battery life is average.
Casio: Another long-time CE handheld manufacturer. Its Pocket PC's are very feature rich, but suffer from relatively slow processor performance. The screens are top-notch. Battery life is poor to average.
Compaq: The newcomer to the field. Its iPaq is a state of the art device. The screen is very vibrant and easily viewable, the processor is very fast, and it has a above-average battery life. I do have one complaint: its akward and expensive expansion system. The "sleeves" you must purchase add considerable bulk to the device.
Conclusion: For a student, PalmOS is definitely the way to go. It will save time as well as go easy on the pocketbook.
For an enthausiast, I have to recommend a the iPaq. Its multimedia capabilities are a sight to behold.
For the business user, its a toss-up. Go with what your colleagues use so that you are compatible.
[sig]you really dont want the answers, trust me[/sig]
I've been an iPaq user for a few months ever since I had a Palm V get stolen. There are a few issues which have been discussed above (the multiple button press one is the biggie for me), but all in all I think it's a great machine. However, I think it's important to focus on what you'll be using it for. A long and robust feature list is great, but in reality most people use these things for little more than PIM functions. I was wowed by the iPaq like everyone else, and I don't regret buying one. I do think that most of what I've ended up using it for could have been accomplished jsut fine by just getting a new Palm - and I would have saved a few hundered dollars. The important thing is to think hard about exactly what you'll use it for - especially if you can't afford to make a mistake on what's a pretty significant purchase for most.
"Moderate drinking can help prevent amputated limbs" -- Abigail Zuger, NYTimes, 12/31/02
I just bought a Visor Deluxe, before purchasing the Visor though. I bought a Sony clie Color that comes with a 8 MB mem stick. After I got the PDA I noticed their was minimal if not poor support for the System. I also considered purchasing the IPaq but if your a student. I believe this to be more a fancy toy then an organizer. For $600 dollars you can by yourself a new harddrive, new 32 MB video card, printer and a Visor. Which is what I did instead of keeping the Sony Clie. I believe its difficult to justify spending so much money on a system that will only be used for scheduling and task traking. As far as programming the Palm OS is much more popular then the WinCE system. You have a better chance of developing a better supported apps on the Palm then WinCE. If your a student I would go with the Visor and hold off on the IPaq till you graduate and buy it as a graduation present to yourself. Late.
I have a VR3 and I don't think too highly of it. You can't sell a product in today's market without working sync software.
Early adoptors are seldom rewarded. I lost my iPAQ I'd have felt better about it if it was only sofa-change. Though I loved the device, I'm going to wait untill they come right down in price.
At this point, yopy has only just recently been released, while ipaq is almost a year old (yopy promised that it would be ready last year at the beginning of the summer), even though their specs are almost identical.
Ipaq has had the time necessary for the testing of a thousand eyes (for bugs), while yopy hasn't. Also, ipaq keeps getting better. Yopy is still trying to get off the ground.
And that's making the assumption that all things are equal in terms of development. But they're not. The operating system for the yopy is an obscure distribution of Linux that they made mostly themselves, including a windowing system called W (which they didn't make). Forget using all of your own graphical programs - they won't work on W, only on X. Its almost as though they don't actually have Linux, only something that vaguely resembles Linux.
The ipaq comes with Windows CE, which has the added benefit of actually working most of the time, and having LOTS of developers. You can even download free development kits for it in various programming languages, including C++ and Java.
You can switch platforms, in which case you can use a more normal distro of Linux that actually has X. And recently, you can switch back (check here for info).
If all you want is a PDA, a Palm would probably be your best bet. If you want a small, mobile computer capable of multimedia, network access, large storage, normal web browsing etc., get an iPaq.
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If you are really a poor student, then you shouldn't even be worrying about whether to get a Palm or an iPaq. You probably can't afford either one. If you are thinking about paying for it with a credit card that most college students get flooded with, don't do it. Your limited funds should go towards study and survival, not paying outrageous interest rates to satisfy a want, not a need. Most college bookstores sell cheap student planners, but all you really need is a small notebook and a pen/pencil which will cost you at most a buck each. With a small amount of discipline, those simple tools will suit you just fine.
If you actually _need_ it as a part of a CS programming project, sign up for Palm's developer program, download their free development tools, and get a discounted (35-40 percent) model being offered to developers or a refurbished one [in both cases a PDA would cost you about $100 or less]. If you are able, release the finished product on the web. Buying an iPaq & running linux on it to satisfy some geeky want only depletes your bank account and supports Redmond.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
The new color Palm m505 and the new color Sony clie (710C?) both use this same technology and are quite visible in sunlight.
I got one of the last Palm 3xe's.. Bigger display then an m105, same OS, same RAM, lower price..
It looks like Palm is offering all manner of mail in rebates and such to get these things off the shelves so they can sell the new models.. I got mine for less then $200CDN..
I'm not even sure how much an iPaq costs, and running linux in my poxket would be cool, but I'm still having trouble finding enough palmwarez to fill 8m..
I'm not sure - the screen is supposed to be sealed, but I some flaw allows dust to get in.
The iPaq screen is reflective, which means you need light on the front of it (not the back) to see it. This makes it (as far as I know) the only color PDA that you can use outdoors in direct sunlight - the more light the better.
But because the screen is lit from the front (actually by lights at the side of the screen), this makes the little specs of dust GLOW.
It's annoying. But I'd rather put up with it than go through the trouble of sending mine back.
So you use your Palm jsut as it came out of the box, with no additional software or hardware? I doubt it.
And using Linux, for some people, is a matter of having something more useful for them, not a matter of showing off. I'm a UNIX admin. I'd much rather have a portable platform on which I can do some semblance of my normal work than have to deal with half-assed implementations of tools that kind of do what the real UNIX tools do.
This space for rent. Call 1-800-STEAK4U
This space for rent. Call 1-800-STEAK4U
And Windows for Pocket PC defintely gives ground to Palm's OS in a few usability areas.
But Compaq really put some work into the Ipaq, even making up for some of Microsoft's omissions.
An example? The 'Q' button on the Ipaq. Push it, and up pops a menu with all of your running tasks, which you can switch to, or quit out of. This is both an extremely easy way to navigate the OS, and a way around one of the biggest problems with WinCE(or whatever they are calling it now): Microsoft assumes you never need to quit a program, so after you open a few, other PocketPCs run out of memory and slow to a crawl.
The main reason I bought the Ipaq over a palm, though, was the memory, not the color screen and fancy-pants multimedia capabilities, or the ability to play Quake (which it does fine, contrary to speculation here. To me, 64 megs is just enough to store large amounts of writing, my daily downloads of a dozen newspapers, magazines and news sites, my email and contacts, and a few ebooks.
And, of course, the numbers don't lie, and Compaq, with their greater committment to innovation, and basically superior product, is going to eat Palm's lunch.
\
Once the pad of paper fills up, it sits at home and you can't access it. Plus, there is a lot of bulk after a while.
You can write for years and years and never fill up your Palm Pilot. I know; I have.
I used to have tons of those little notebooks that I jotted ideas down in. So I never had the one I needed when it came time to look something up. Now it's all in the Palm, and it all gets backed up regularly too.
I'll never go back!
Jon
All opinions expressed herein are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled.
I'm waiting to see one in person so I can tell if I like the screen or not.
I also wish they had built in MP3. I'd have ordered one the day they came out if they'd done that. Maybe they'll come out with a CF MP3 card, or an SD one.
Jon Acheson
All opinions expressed herein are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled.
Well certain games. Hasn't bothered me too much, because most get around this by using the stylus and buttons (Like the NES emulator PocketNES).
The speaker "clicks" as the little amplifier turns on whenever it needs to make a sound; This is probably a WinCE thing, so hopefully the linux driver folks will make it configurable.
This was fixed in the latest ROM for the device when running WinCE.
Dust inside the screen. Seems to happen to everyone - it happened to me, I'm just living with it.
Same here, it's not too much of a deal. Compaq has done a few things to reduce this.
Weird expansion capabilities. You can add a Smart Media or Compact Flash slot, but the sleeve you need to get to do so makes the iPaq quite a bit bigger, and you can only have one sleeve at a time.
This has it's advantages and disadvantages. I can use PCMCIA cards, but when I don't need to, I can slim down the device.
The iPaq usually gets 12 hours of runtime per full charge. Since it's rechargable, I just drop it in the cradle at night along with my cell phone. Who cares if a Palm with 2 AAA batteries gets 20 hours of run time. I'm never going to use my iPaq more then 12 hours a day. Plus for trips, I can easially just bring the PCMCIA sleeve to add a second battery.
Wait! You can have the best of both worlds-
http://www.thedaily.com/paperpalm.html
Looks like a palm, but you don't have to learn grafitti, and it's less than $5!
I love my Agenda (www.agendacomputing.com) it's 100% pure linux, no it don't have the flashy mpeg player like the ipaq, or the ability to carry around 9000hours of mp3's or whatever... but as a linux PDA it does the job and does it well. (it is also significantly cheaper than the ipaq)
If you want flashy, and be able to watch your divix films on your palm, get an ipaq.
otherwise spend the same money and buy 2 agenda vr3's
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
I'd love to see MS fail (due to competition or _fair_ justicial action against them) and I'd also like, in theory, to see Linux succeed. My problem is simply that I think Linux and Open Source/Free software is way way over-sold. Yes, Linux and some of these others packages do their jobs pretty well. But just because they do their jobs pretty well does not mean that, therefore, the Open Source model is fully capable of competing with propreitary software en masse. Frankly, I see a lot of problems both empirically and theoretically in Free/Open development in general. Not to mention the fact that there is very little that, in my opinion that really suggests that it's capable of scaling the kinds of development hurdles that even MS has managed to scale.
You add all these issues to the mix and I think Linux is, at best, a long shot.
I disagree with you completely. First, what little Palm has "lost", it has lost not to "free", "open", or "commodity" pricing, it has lost to flashy and _more_ expensive devices and software. Second, Palm alone is still outselling WinCE and Linux devices (though these are practically insignificant) combined in terms of units--Ipaq has only outsold in terms of revenue in the short term. When you combine this with Sony and Handspring, their combined revenue is probably much higher--hardly an indictment of PalmOS. Incidentally, PalmOS is cheap, part of the reason why Palm's revenue looks less than stellar lately, and also part of the reason why Sony, Handspring, and others have chosen Palm over the other, supposed, competition. The applications (HotSync Manager, PalmOS, conduits, etc), OS, and API is going for about 2 dollars a unit, hardly the 20 dollars you imply. In addition, a good part of Palm's "problems" have nothing to do with the competition and more to do with the fact that the economy crapped out on them and their inventories were too high.
Furthermore, speaking as a present PalmOS developer (not that I'm wedded to PalmOS in any sense), it is clear to me that both the WinCE devices and especially the Linux devices are ill-concieved. What practical applications are there that most users can actually use that they can do better with WinCE and/or Linux? Why use it? Palm's has had a very clear vision, PalmOS is not limited because they're lazy, it's limited by design. The Ipaq buyers seem primarily motived by novelty and coolness than by real functionality. Just because they're selling well today, does not mean they'll continue to sell well, or make any headway in the work place.
Haha, are you kidding me? Why on earth would you want this? More developer interest? Not mine, not my companies, not that of others. PalmOS has thousands of developers out there, very few of them have flocked to Linux.
No, I simply did not have the time or the energy to bring forth all the arguments and evidence in a clear and coherant manner. However, I'll throw a couple of them out right now. First, despite Linux's limited success, Open Source has hardly demonstrated that it's capable of matching multi-million dollar development efforts. Linux has had the benefit of riding in the shadow of Windows, various Unixes, and many other OSes. Linux has had the benefit of being able to copy features, design, code, and other things. It's much much harder to be first, to truely innovate. When you actually have to do it from scratch, it requires a lot more work to get it right. Second, Linux is limited in scope, it's just a kernel and that kernel has attracted the lions share of Open/Free developer mindshare.
What happens when you need to _truely_ match the world of windows? Not just a kernel, installers, applications, help menus, full featured GUIs, etc. How many bright talented open source developers do you know that are willing to work on these less inspiring projects? What's more, maybe a great many idealistic young developers are just working to prove that Linux can "do it",...what happens when Linux has done it. Are they really willing to go that extra mile, to make sure that hundreds of millions more lines of code get written with reasonable quality, to really match the users experience in windows?
Even if all those developers are willing and able to write all that other code, who is going to organize it? To place resources where they need to be placed, rather than in the more exciting or popular projects. Who is going to assign themselves the task of debugging and reviewing code? While you may argue that Linux does this, it also benefits from its limited scope, limited size, modularity, great mindshare, and the fact that it's derived from previous work--it's not the same thing.
Even if people are _willing_, they still need to work. Someone like myself, even though I might have the skills to contribute to Linux, and the desire to develop certain pet projects, I lack the time to really commit to something as large scale as Linux. Working a couple hours here and there is NOT at all the same thing as working full time at it, without interruption. If I had to develop code for work like that, I would't be nearly as productive. Most of the truely productive Linux, and other open source developers, are also those that work few hours, if at all. This represents a very small part of the population.
In summary, my concerns are: will, desire, size, focus, and organization. All of them are very daunting tasks in and of themselves.
No, I don't think it's a zero-sum game. You asserted that PalmOS should be scrapped because it's outdated, or something to that effect. I am simply asserting that the reasons for PalmOS's design are still largely valid today and thus it should not be scrapped. Namely, lack of input devices and _necessarily_ small screens. The only thing that has really changed is better battery life and cheaper memory, but these don't really matter that much given the limitations [Though it would make developing Palm applications a bit easier, not having to worry so much about the use of global variables and such, it's still overall a pleasure to design for.] What's more, I think there is still another year or so before memory and battery technologies improve to a point where making drastic updates to PalmOS would make sense.
You may argue that Palm could have and should have emulated the approach of IPAQ, while still maintaining the status quo with their bread and butter PalmOS / PDA. I simply do not believe it is this simple, despite whatever vestiges of 3com may remain in Palm. First, their is something to be said for mindshare. Does Palm really want to confuse customers and pirate their existing customers? It's one thing to make those moves for the future, but making a brash move for flashy applications, is hardly a win-win move. Especially when you consider that Palm must fight the considerable resources of the likes of MS. MS would love nothing better than a feature war, where everything can be neatly captured on a X by X matrix. Also consider that they'd risk splintering their considerable developer community. I'm not speaking so much of all the random shareware/free developers online, but corporate, military and industrial application developers. Plus they'd have to start playing a near-commodity hardware pricing game, not a good game to play. Lastly, I think IPAQ success is sort of flukish--few people really predicted this one would take off--and those that have have been predicting each WinCE device would--despite all their failures. It's basically a different market, in my opinion. A new one, one in which people are willing to spend a considerably more money on a device that they really can't (or rather, aren't going to) DO anything more with.
What magic price might this be? Less than 3 dollars? Consumers drop more for a cup of coffee these days, do you really think this is going to dissuade them? I don't think so, not that much, especially when no other alternatives exist. [Sorry, but I don't believe those Linux handhelds will ever reach the mass market] Furthermore, you are presuming that Linux has near zero cost, this is demonstratively untrue. Linux as is, in all its current forms, is both il-equipped and needing of many changes to support PalmOS like performance, compatibility, etc. I would venture to say that it would cost as much as Linux itself. Given the fact that the community has not yet done it, I see no reason to believe that they will do it in the near future. Thus, it will come out of Palm's pockets. Whether those costs come in the development of Linux or PalmOS is irrelevant, it still costs money. That money must come from somewhere.
First, this is exactly what _you_ are saying. You are second guessing Palm's management, not to mention the Sony's, Handspring's, TRG's, and others. If that's the argument you're going to make, then at least be consistent. Second, some decisions are plainly stupid, one need not necessarily be an insider to know that. For instance, of Palm were to spend 500m dollars convert to MS-DOS, most sufficiently educated and reasonable people would agree that is stupid. Likewise, when Palm embarks on a program where they cannot name a significant and true benefit, then I say it is stupid, especially when they clearly do not understand the overall environment.
Now that I have some time, I'll name (or re-iterate) a couple flaws with the conversion to Linux.
1) The most it could possibly save is 2 or 3 dollars per device.
2) It would require significant investment, almost certainly more than adding the few desired features into PalmOS.
3) Linux offers very little to handheld devices.
4) PalmOS is very much up to the tasks that are demanded of it, all the monies that funded its development are sunk. Meaning that it's impossible to recover them. Converting to Linux, on the other hand, would certainly cost money. Are you really going to tell me that adding those few demanded features to the EXISTING PalmOS would cost more than practically starting from scratch with Linux? Or do you really believe that the community is going to do this for Palm? Please.
5) Linux is MUCH MUCH more demanding of the CPU and memory, many of those are a result of its feature set (e.g., multithreading). This means that despite whatever devices commodity status, it will probably cost more than a competing PalmOS device.
6) Palm would have a very difficult time building in Linux without getting suckered into the GPL. This is bad for a couple reasons. First, the bulk of their work could be adopted by the competition for free. Meaning that, not only could the competition avoid paying the PalmOS licensing fees, but that control could certainly drift away from Palm Inc. What happens when some vendor, say Sony, decides they want to add a new feature in. Sure, that may go GPL, but then you eventually end up with competiting alternatives, hardly desirable to developers. Furthermore, that would make Palm into much more of a hardware company than it really is. If the market truely goes commodity, that is hardly a desirable market for Palm. The only way they could compete is with larger economies of scale.
7) Palm could license and acquire other OSes, if they really wanted, which are far less restrictive and would be ultimately cheaper to adapt.
So, again, I ask you, what are the benefits and how much is it going to cost, even off the hip?
Because I can. Because I wanted to. Because I had the time. Why bother replying to me?
You can dream all you want, but if you want to sell it to others or convince people like myself that the management of Palm is composed of idiots, then you should expect a little vigorous debate. My intention was not to strike you down for your lack of credentials, but rather to engage you in reasoned debate.
It may be cool, to people you and I, but that does not mean that 99% of the population would have any use for it. Since you have so little appreciation for PalmOS, why bother with Palm at all, when you have the likes of Agenda and such out there?
If Palm's move to Linux means that it now appeals to the 1% of the population called geeks, while raising their price by 50% (memory, CPU, etc), for instance, [assume for a minute that it's otherwise the same to the end-user], how does this help them? Consider also that many geeks may choose Agenda et. al instead, and that many have no use for a PDA at all. The actual people that would buy as a result would be small, while many more (average users) may be be discouraged because of price. Even if the price were exactly the same (meaning none of the existing buyers would be discouraged), consider it financially. It would require a relatively large cash outlay (say 10m dollars, excluding marketing costs), given a relatively small group of buyers and profit margin, it's hardly worth it. I would be very suprised if Palm could sell enough additional sales to make that expenditure as profitable one. Even if it were, ask yourself if this would offer a greater return than targeting the rest of the population with WinCE-like features.
Maybe not to write a quick hack, but to make it as stable as Palm, as easy to develop for, as small of a memory footprint, and to do it in a cost effective manner, that is non-trivial. Some complex issues are: database and memory management (they're intertwined in Palm), synchronization, power management, boot-time, sleep-mode, event handling, custom UI (designed to minimize user-interaction), grafitti, LCD control, etc. These ideas may seem easy, but even mimicking them is much harder than you think, never mind writing them from scratch. I'd be extremely suprised if Agenda and others even approximate this in its totality.
Fine, then explain in a coherant fashion how Palm saves that money? How does spending money converting to Linux save them any money whatsoever? Palm has already has a pretty fine OS, for all intents and purposes it is FREE now, whereas converting to Linux today would COST them more money.
Where do I proclaim myself an expert in the minutia of running Palm Inc? I speak from general experience with manufacturing, developing software, and financial experience, not to mention development (and deployment) experience on PalmOS, these allow me to be reasonably sure that moving to Linux would be a stupid move, without being terribly familiar with Palm's operations [though I did actually hear Palm's founders/developers speak at Penn Engineering's entreprenuership class recently]. Some problems are simply so fundamental and so simple as not to require real expert knowledge.
Enough said, bye.
Don't run Linux because Linux is cool. On a handheld, you want the most stable and mature software *for your tasks* that is available - which will almost certainly be Palm or Psion. WinCE is useless, and Linux isn't very big on small-footprint task management and scheduling software.
I have a Handspring Visor, and the fact is, it's a much better handheld than a Unix machine would be. I have brightly colored to-do list management, I have appointments and alarms, and the interface is designed to be driven from a couple of buttons and a stylus, not a mouse and a keyboard. It works better.
My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
I did the same thing with my Palm III, but I've lugged a sucession of laptops and two handhelds around with me constantly. I'm not sure what the difference was, but I don't *think* it was the input... I think it was the interface.
Simple, easy, and maddeningly unextendable. The inability to drop to a prompt and/or do real spreadsheet/text work drove me nuts. Any OS that has no real provision for a text file is not hacker friendly.
Eventaully I cracked the screen and shed no tears. The leather case for it (that is/was my wallet) now holds a penguin mint tin full of caffene pills, antacids and ibuprofen. Ready for a late night or SF convention at a moments notice!
--
Evan
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
I love my Agenda, but...
It's very slow. On my Palm I can Graffiti as fast as I like, and it keeps up with me. On the Agenda, I'm constantly waiting for the handwriting recognition to catch up. The Agenda is also noticably slower at firing up applications.
Depressingly, I need the Outlook sync tools that didn't ship with it. We're forced to use Outlook at work, and since one of my main uses for a PDA is as a daytimer, I need to keep my Outlook calendar and my PDA synched.
I don't know what can be done about the speed. The Outlook sync will be there (if I weren't busy trying to get a job on the other side of the Atlantic I'd be working on it myself), and when it is it will be usable (for my purposes - I know other people are already using it productively as an Atari 800 emulator!).
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E_NOSIG
It's cheaper for Compaq to pay Microsoft than to have to produce another version of the iPAQ without wince. Sure, they could make a Linux version. Would you like to pay $30 more for it?
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
IIRC The stylus silo has a hole in it for some reason
That's for the ink to drain away... Well, maybe it's to prevent vacuum/compression resistance when removing/inserting the stylus.
And yup, Handera is a silly name - remind me of Thundercats :o)
Matt Thompson - Actuality - Insert product here.
I, for one, would love to see any evidence of this community on Windows. However, every time I've gone looking for a Windows app, it's been (at best) shareware. With one exception, every time I've gone looking for a Linux app, it's been open source. Oh, and the Windows guys have only once offered source. Not exactly what I would call an open source community on Windows.
GPL made simple: What was my stuff is now our stuff. If you improve our stuff, please keep it our stuff.
Used to think like that until I dropped my leather bound notebook in a mudpuddle in Spring. 4 years of contact information ruined. Gone. Went out and bought a Palm Pro the next day (this was 1997). Last month I gave the Pro to my GF and bought a IIIxe for $200cdn. Hands down, get the palm, yeah, no fancy features you don't use anyhow. It's $200cdn. 8meg. Works great.
And most importantly it backs up in a few seconds.
..don't panic
You can read the marketing hype at Handera's website. [Note: Handera used to be TRG, but changed their name for some silly reason] Or you can read this excellent review at MemoWare.
The only thing I disagree with them on is the use of serial instead of USB. I can understand their desire to make it compatible with all of the palm III add-ons, but still.
As for linux support...I have no idea.
for what it's worth,
Michael
I love the Ipaq. It's a sexy little device, and for some extra dough, you can get a wireless modem (CDPD). You throw an ICA client on there, and you suddenly have access to any app on your Citrix server. I
Um, this is my sig.
There is a lot of talk about Linux handlhelds. However, I have yet to come accross an article which explain if they support synchronisation with the desktop.
And if they do support synchronisation, what protocol do they use. A good choice (instead of developping a different protocol per device) whould be to use SyncML (http://www.syncml.org/).
The major problem I found running a Linux desktop is to synchronise my Visor with it. I've tried different synchonisation tools for Linux and they all suck (especially malsynf for AvantGo, it always retrieves everything instead of only the stuff that changed like the Windows conduit). So now I rely on Windows running in VMWare to actually sync my Palm.
Unless I have good synchronisation with my Linux desktop, there is no way I'm gonna switch to a Linux handheld.
For all those wondering why you'd buy a PDA if you were a poor student: To keep tabs on your student loan payment schedual!
... in which case, he'll be using it for 'reference' during exams. ;)
Or maybe he meant "poor" as in "bad"
"Old man yells at systemd"
I owned a Palm for about a year. Then, one day I was with some friends and managed to fall on my side, with my Palm in my pocket. The thing shattered. I didn't really have enough money to get a new one, so I didn't bother to replace it.
The next month or so was crazy; I couldn't remember assignments, appointments, or phone numbers very well. But after that month, I found myself able to keep it all straight in my head. It was at that moment I came to this conclusion: The Palm resulted in a decreased memory ability! It was at that point I realized that breaking my Palm was quite a blessing in disguise. I'm frankly glad to be rid of it.
So if your reasoning for getting a PDA is to help remember appointments and the like, I'd actually recommend against it, but instead focus on ways to try to better remember things without any assistance. Yes, it takes some time to get used to it, but in the end I think it's highly beneficial.
If you want a portable desktop that you can hack and have stuff easily portable from existing desktop code, you want to take a look at the IPAQ or Agenda. I've got an agenda, and it's cool as technology in and of itself (remote display and Apache on an organizer, how cool it that?). It has a consumer IR feature, which alone justifies buying the hardware. But cool is really all it is; it wasn't designed to be usable. Buttons are located in weird places, it is very slow, and some UI design decisions are absolutely attrocious. Agenda can't really decide whether they are targeting the non technical-user who is largely interested in PIM or the linux geek who wants a cool and snazzy portable linux box.
If you want a mission-critical, easy-to-use organizer where UI (both hardware-wise and software-wise) is not an afterthought, the only solution is palm. The palm has had a lot of mac influence in the UI, and MacOS has had a far better track record on user interface issues than microsoft or the linux community. Also, PalmOS by design is far more responsive interface-wise than linux is. PalmOS gives special priority to handling UI events which is something that linux simply just doesn't do. If anyone thinks this explanation is BS, then why is my 8-16mhz palm far more responsive than my 66mhz Agenda? While PalmOS doesn't really multi-task, for what most people use it for (dates, phone numbers, etc) multi-tasking is a non-issue. The design of the palm is well thought out; it was modelled after a block of wood a guy carried around in his pocket for a month. The other PDA's (both Linux and Wince) were modelled after that clunky thing sitting on your desk. The question of which design decision makes more sense I leave up to you.
Real hackers' handwriting is worse than doctors'. Notepad and pencil storage only works well if you can read what you wrote a month later. In a university environment where you're always 10 feet from a terminal, it really doesn't matter, though. Just keep everything on your UNIX box.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Wow. That is the most candid letter I can ever remember seeing. The polar opposite of the usual marketing BS.
Refreshing!
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
Well, it depends on the keyboard. Some keyboards make a noisy "clack" and others are very quiet.
A dozen years or so ago, long before Palm, the smallest and lightest laptop-ish thing you could get was a TRS-80 Model 100. It had 24 or 32 kilobytes of memory (24KB, not 24MB), a display that was 8 lines of 40 characters each, and a decent keyboard. That keyboard was noisy, but there was a well-known hack: you would pop the key caps off, put a little tiny rubber band around the post for the key, and put the key cap back on. (You could get the tiny rubber bands from any orthodontist.) With a spongy rubber bumper under every key, the keyboard became very quiet for note-taking.
(By the way, I heard that the Model 100 was very popular for news reporters. 24KB is enough to write up a news story, the built-in text editor was adequate, and they could use the optional acoustic coupler with the built-in 300 baud modem to send in the news story from any phone booth.)
I don't think any of the portable Palm keyboards I have seen make a really loud "clack" sound when you type. If you are a gentle typist, you shouldn't make too much noise.
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
Sony Clie'. Eat up ;-) (actually I'm not sure it records voice memos, but it should do everything else). Alternatively you can get a Handspring Visor Deluxe to do all those things but not at once.
"Prefiero morir de pie que vivir siempre arrodillado!"
You might have better luck with one of the new portable cd players coming out that also play mp3 cd(r/rw)s. True the display probably sucks more, but then OTOH the sound is probably better and you can cram way more onto a cdr(w) than you can for even the largest CF/SD card, for a vanishingly small fraction of the price.
I just saw one of these beasts at Radio Shack the other day, damn if I can recall the name of it or how much it was though. (And if there are always the laptop-hd-in-pretty-case things (c.f. thinkgeek) too.)
Of course the ideal would be a mobile phone with better sound chips, blazing fast wireless ethernet, and your own personal WAPish-interface streaming MP3 server... ;-) "Yeah, all 120 gigs of mp3s are available through my phone..."
--
News for geeks in Austin: www.geekaustin.org
News for Geeks in Austin, TX
I wonder how possiable it would be to create a "mini"-wine for CE... WinCE in theorgy should be less complex than Win32, and the Wine project has made it along way with the Win32 side...
"`Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.'" -THHGTTG
Instead of just praising your favorite toy, let's talk about the basic issues here. Which are:
-- Does it really make sense to put Linux on handhelds? Is it better than handheld OSs (PalmOS, Epoc) and if so, why?
-- Does it make sense to develop a handheld hardware platform specifically to run Linux? And if you're going to give the religious argument (I won't pay a license fee to M$, even if it costs me money!) consider that economics is a bigger issue to most people. Your pet technology is irrelevent if nobody uses it.
-- Why are we so dependent on X-Windows? It would seem to make sense to develop a new terminal server for modern platforms. But everybody insists that it's too hard to port X apps to new technologies, such as W. Why?
-- For that matter, why does the X server model persist years after the demise of the dedicated platform it was designed for? Why is nobody looking at approaches that simply dispense with the terminal server, such as Qt Palmtop?
__
No one's mentioned the most important reason to favor Linux over PalmOS, which is of course, nethack.
"The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, and the Data is Life"
Insightful indeed, but if money is such a consideration, why the hell wouldn't Agenda top your list? It costs way less than the Yopy or IPaq, and has a very active and geeky community:
linux-pda.org (Agenda slashsite)
subscribe to the mailing lists (between the user and developer lists there's 100 or more messages a day)
Agenda help page outstanding reference and starting point
From hell's heart I fstab at /dev/hdc
...be sure it has the "palm" attachment. It definitely makes any PDA more accessible and will make you more productive.
while i dont want to start a PPC vs PalmOS argument here, you may want to think about the following:
PPC:
- shrunken down mobile PC
- games (interactive), work processing, data processing etc
- battery life, size, expandability
Palm:
- PIM, quick reference data
- simple games, KISS principles.
- battery life, size, expandability
loads of other issues too.. but, if you want to play doom type games (CPU intensive) - choose a PPC device.. if you want to mess with work processing, data processing, pretty much do things mobile that you can on your desktop, choose PPC.. if you want a device that you can just bring up information quickly, get a phone number fast, write a simple note.. choose Palm.
its never a question of "which one is best", as it always depends on what you want the device for. consider this question before you make a decision.
In my experience (testing many different types of handheld PDAs for my company) the iPaq falls short in one key area: battery life. If I charge mine up on Friday afternoon, so that it's at full charge, and leave it all weekend (not using it at all), by Monday the battery is dead. And since it's a built-in rechargable battery (not AAA batteries)... if I'm on the road and don't have my charging cradle... I'm out of luck.
Of all the handheld devices, my favorite is the Handspring Visor (pretty much any flaver of Visor, although the Visor Edge also has a built-in rechargable battery. At least it lasts longer than 48 hours). The Springboard module gives the Visor far more expandablility than any other device on the market.
The cost is also a factor: Visors are less expensive than iPaqs. Since it runs the Palm OS, there is a tremendous library of apps that will run on it (both freeware and buyware).
I've also heard (unconfirmed) stories that iPaqs have the highest dealer return rate of any handheld.
Just my 2 cents worth.
WutzUnix?
I'm a poor student
/. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
Dears, have you got your answer so far? Don't just ask the question, how about contribute to the society by giving us a detail comparison on the following Linux PDAs for us?
4P DAT500 rugged handheld
Agenda VR3
HNT Exilien 00101/00201 Handheld PC and HNT Exilien 00102 Multimedia PDA
MiTAC CAT
Yopy
SK Telecom IMT2000 WebPhone
VTech Helio
My boss told me to do so but I am just a poor employee and can't afford to make a mistake here. Thanks.
 _
As always, YMMV.
There can be no "one size fits all" PDA for everyone. For some people, the additional functionality of the iPaq is worth the added cost, size and battery drain. For someone like me, whose primary purpose is to always have his address book and calendar with him (and I mean always), the smaller form factor of a Palm V/Vx is the most important feature.
Do I wish my Palm V was faster? Sure, sometimes. Am I willing to give up the 3-4 weeks of battery life on a charge and the supremely portable form factor? Not on your life. I might be willing to sacrifice battery life down to a day or two for a bright color screen, but that'd be it. No increase in size, please.
The only thing that really disappoints me about Palm is that they can't settle on a charging/docking cradle or serial connector. The first cradle worked with everything except the Palm V family. Now the M100s and M500s each have their own new cradle style.
Note to Palm: Quit screwing with the cradles. Pick a style and stop.
I'm just a caveman. I fell on some ice and later got thawed out by some of your scientists. Your world frightens and confuses me! Sometimes the honking horns of your traffic make me want to get out of my BMW.. and run off into the hills, or wherever.. Sometimes when I get a message on my fax machine, I wonder: "Did little demons get inside and type it?" I don't know! My primitive mind can't grasp these concepts. But there is one thing I do know - you should take a little trip through your local K-Mart to find a cheap PDA if you need one that bad. Do you want it for the "wow factor" or just to brag about how l33t you are now that you have a PDA.
m.kelley
www.mkelley.net
m.kelley
life is like a freeway, if you don't look you could miss it.
"Daddy only sends me 500 bucks a month for my allowance" vs. "My intestines are bleeding from eating ramen, the only food I've eaten in the last 3 years"
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That being said, they have supposedly fixed the dust problem by adding screen gaskets. I don't have one of these newer models so I can't comment.
The single button problem does make gaming impossible. Can't even play a decent game of Doom; Quake is a chore also. Folks are working on gamepad controllers to get around this problem.
Speaker click is very irritating, but the excellent sound when using the device with headphones (which is how I normally listen to music and movies) more than makes up for it.
The worst thing is size. A naked iPaq is a thing of beauty. Sure, it's bigger than a Palm (not by that much) - but hell, look at all it can do! A naked iPaq is a very good thing.
As soon as you slip an expansion jacket on it, forget about it, it's a brick. There are after-market modifications you can make to the sleeves (or pay someone else to) to slim them down. I'm working on mine right now.
Palms are great, and if all your mobile needs are met by one, fantastic. I for one love the expansion possibilities and features of my iPaq, whether it be running WinCE or Linux.
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I still use my upgraded MP2000 every day and get quite a kick out of explaining to people just how cool it really is. It is not pocket-sized, but the monster screen size makes up for this. It is a shame that this box was killed because it really was the ultimate student PDA (you could actually _write_ your class notes during class and then go back over the recognition later.)
IIRC The stylus silo has a hole in it for some reason, theres lots of ways for dust to get inside any device, but this is a particular nasty flaw. The monochrome version of the IPaq has this fixed, but for some reason they haven't fixed the colour version.
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Insert Witty Sig Here
Get a palm if you want an organizer. Get an iPaq if you want a computer.
The issue is nicely focused here. As a full-fledged development machine, the iPaq sucks. For most full-scale application work, the iPaq sucks. So do most desktops for that matter.
iPaq is more of a computer than a Palm, of course. But the question then is whether you need a computer at your palm.
So, its like this. When I need to do my organization and routine clicking to add numbers, the palm and iPaq perform about as well, and are both equally convenient at my palm. When I need to use a computer, the iPaq performs better than the palm, but both perform equally poorly. I would far prefer to use a computer, and don't usually need it at my palm.
In this sense, iPaq seems like too much and not enough.
I've just purchased a Handspring Visor Platinum a couple months ago (and *then* they drop the price down to $250) and it works great. It runs PalmOS 3.5 out of the box, which is what you will find most apps developed for. There is a lot of software and development options, including open source stuff. Is it really that critical that you have Linux on there? I dont know the price tag of the iPaq, but frankly I would seriously consider some of the PalmOS hardware as well. Its really quite nice. I've just started to develop on it, and its not any harder than elsewhere, except code bloat can become a problem if you dont watch it.
I dont have hands on experience with the new Palm M500 and 505, but my boss at work has a 505 (which is color with PalmOS 4.0 native i believe) and loves it to death. The Platinum and M505 both have 33mHz Dragonball processors and 8 megs of RAM, plus expansion room. Especially for the Visors, with the Springboard expansions. Reference to Handspring for their information and savings offers. I really like them so far.
Just my 0.2 cents.
http://thechubbyferret.net - Ferret pictures and informative links.
Also, the Agenda people seem like they are heading in the right direction. Someone brought up a good point about the iPaq (not good enough, to me, to not buy one) in that you still pay a M$ tax on the device even when planning on loading Linux. If you wanted to look at a pure zealot's handheld, I think the Agenda would be better. I know there's no color, yet, but it runs Linux, you can flash new kernel's to it as well as software. Only thing that I never have seen about agenda is if it sync's with either evolution or some other Linux PIM app. I see that they have sync software for Linux, but they don't say what it syncs with. Be nice if you could use the same palm support with the agenda since if you can use the same software to transfer it, it would work with every Linux pim that already works with Palm.
Gorkman
The joystick and buttons are crap. Not only are they useless for games (see earlier post), they aren't very robust feeling.
Compaq has sealed up the hole in the stylus silo in later models 3650 and all 3670s. They will fix any dusty screen problems by warranty for free regardless of how long you've had it.
----------------------
To resolve these complaints, install the familiar linux distribution :-)
;) :-)
.deb files) and remote control it with vnc. Someone recently got apache+php going on it so you can serve up some pages if you like. Also lirc support now coming so I can taunt my wife by changing tv channels with ipaq. The linux environment opens it up and allows it to behave (and be viewed) very differently!
Then you can:
1. Use a Gravis Stinger gamepad and play xmame/snes games
2. Hear no clicking (although you can hear a mp3 or icecast/shoutcast stream with Scream)
3. Dust still a problem but Compaq willing to fix if you're willing to part with it - pay for shipping only.
4. Sleeve does make it bigger..and far more powerful! With pcmcia sleeve, I walk around the house on the internet, using dillo or Konq/e to surf the net while listening to tunes (see 2). Plus my nfs share to my linux box gives me mucho space
5. Need more software? Write your own quickly with python and gtk
6. Bill may not appreciate it but you will!
And at the end of the day, it's now a full-fledged computer. I can ssh into my ipaq from work while it sits at home, upgrade it with new ipkgs (think debian
A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess? - Joshua (Wargames)
Regarding gamepads, see http://handhelds.org/z/wiki/HardwareProjects
Scroll down to Gravis Stinger and/or SpaceOrb 360 and salt to taste. I use both on my ipaq.
A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess? - Joshua (Wargames)
...then I can think of better ways you can spend your money.
Personally, I can only see a few reasons why you as a student would need one:
Personally, I own a Visor. After spending 3 weeks playing with it, going "This is so cool!", I put it on the shelf and haven't touched it since. I discovered that I didn't really need it, I just taken in by its coolness. If you truly need a PDA, then you probably already know what your specific needs in a PDA are, and you should act accordingly. If you're like I was, and just want it for the geek factor, you'll be wasting your money no matter what you buy.
I seriously considered an iPaq but ended up getting a palm, and (half a school year later) I'm happy I made that choice. iPaq's are nice devices, color screen, etc.... but think: what are you going to be doing that requires color? Furhtermore, what are you going to be doing that REQUIRES Linux? Palm's are easy to write apps for in Linux or any other OS, and they're much cheaper (= more money for that upgrade you've wanted). I got a Palm m100 handheld for $150 and a keyboard for $100. I found that even writing fast enough to give me a cramp wasn't fast enough for handwriting recognition, it's due to the limited space available on a screen. If you're going to be taking notes (like I do with my Palm), you'll NEED a keyboard. The Palm one works perfectly. Seriously, when you consider that Palm's have a perfectly good notepad-ish application for typing, and a spreadsheet app can be purchased for ~$30, you've got a computer that's every bit as good at taking notes as a iPaq for I'm not going to be changing the way I take notes (or at least I'm not planning on it), and my Palm's put up with nearly a year of abuse with no signs of wear. I'm finishing my freshman year of HS now, and I'm planning to use my Palm all the way through University. It's that good. Tim
- You can't press more than one button at a time. This makes gaming nearly impossible.
- The speaker "clicks" as the little amplifier turns on whenever it needs to make a sound; This is probably a WinCE thing, so hopefully the linux driver folks will make it configurable.
- Dust inside the screen. Seems to happen to everyone - it happened to me, I'm just living with it.
- Weird expansion capabilities. You can add a Smart Media or Compact Flash slot, but the sleeve you need to get to do so makes the iPaq quite a bit bigger, and you can only have one sleeve at a time.
I'd recommend it.. but maybe it's safer to buy it from somewhere like Radio Shack that will let you return it if you decide you really don't like it. - SteveMuch more useful than an iPAQ which seems to be very hardly supported under Linux
Much not very informed opinion, since Compaq, until recently, maintained the "hh" reference port of Linux for the iPaq, and more recently changed the reference port to one of the community ports (Freedom?) since they were a little farther along. Everything in the iPaq is supported under Linux. The sound is supported, the handwriting recognition is supported. There are ports of things like Perl and Python, and it all runs under X.
You're talking about communication tools for the Palm on Linux. Big freaking deal. We're talking about running Linux on the iPaq. Natively. Who needs comm tools to transfer software downloaded from who-knows-where when you can fire up the TCP stack and telnet to your main box where your cross-compiler is to FTP up new programs?
Compaq supports Linux to the extent that they will replace your iPaq if you turn it into a brik while trying to flash the Linux update onto it. They, of course, would rather you didn't do this, but the option is there. And there are just as many apps for Linux as there are for Palm.
This space for rent. Call 1-800-STEAK4U
This space for rent. Call 1-800-STEAK4U
Yes, someone ported Linux to the Palm.
However, Compaq ported Linux to the iPaq. This is the corporate support that everyone complains about there not being for such-and-such hardware everywhere. Compaq has essentially not only "released the drivers", but the source code for the drivers, and the optimized OS to go with the drivers.
See above - I'm a UNIX admin, and would rather have UNIX tools available, since that's what I do for a living. Not only that, but Compaq is gettting right up there with IBM in corporate supprot for Linux, and I feel that if I am going to spend the money, then I want to spend it on a company that supports the things I use. Besides, the iPaq has all the other features I wanted, too (Color, sound, PCMCIA expandability). The Linux thing is just a bonus.
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I also hesitated about a PDA... then opted for a Palm...
You can find Palm tools (jpilot) under Linux, Palm Dev Tools (for free), Palm Emulator (to test your dev)...
Much more useful than an iPAQ which seems to be very hardly supported under Linux.
If it's using Linux to support Free Software, I'll remind you that buying an iPAQ will profit to Micro$oft (WinCE is ALWAYS preinstalled, evn if you plan to use Linux on it).
(I do own a Palm. Support for it under Linux is great... never unpacked the CD-ROM they give with it... and there are many apps for Palm, of all kind)
As the former webmaster of www.yopy.org, I have to tell you to get an iPAQ. It's not at all clear that the G.Mate people understand how open source should work; not true for the Compaq CRL people led by Jim Gettys (insert impeccable credentials here). The iPAQ doesn't require that you have a CF sleeve if you don't need one. Yeah, it's got some design problems. But all-around, it's just so nice that you gotta have one.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Despite being less powerful, I have yet to run out of memory on the thing, even though I have quite a few useful apps on it such as BigClock, AvantGo, DiddleBug and a dozen or so ebooks.
Personally, I'd like an iPaq to fiddle with but I don't see why I should splash out a large amount of money for one when I already have a PDA which does its job so well.
You have just stumbled upon what is perhaps the most useless question you can possibly ask when buying computer technology.
iPaq, Palm, Yopy, whatever... In a year and a half, you will want something better, and will be able to buy something better with the change you find in your sofa.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
This isn't directly related to the article, but it is a key question I think must be answered. What prevents you, exactly, from releasing OpenSource programs for Windows CE? (or Windows for that matter?)
I do it all the time. There is a fairly strong Windows OpenSource community, and we get nothing but disrespect from our OSOS-using bretheren. If you want to preach the benefits of Open Source to the masses, you can't afford to be a platform bigot.
-- russ
Natural != (nontoxic || beneficial)
"I'm a poor student, and can't afford to make a mistake here."
It's perfect! All slashdotters believe you must own a PDA, even if you are a "poor student". They'll make suggestions til the cows come home, never once asking "why not just buy a notepad and a pencil".
Very good troll.
--
324006
I wouldn't get either. I am currently looking at getting a HandEra 330. It runs PalmOS and has both a CF and SD sockets on the top. (It supports a 1GB Micro Drive, hmm...1GB on a Palm) Yes, it is only gray, but I don't like having to change or charge batteries every day. Gray Palms runs for about 1 month on 2AAAs. The HandEra take 4AAAs and weighs about .2 ounces more than a IIIx. There is a option comming out this summer for a Li Ion battery. It also has the same dimensions and connectors as a III series so you have a ready supply of cheap accessories.
I have a Palm Vx and it kills the likes of the iPaq as personal organiser. It's lighter, smaller, has a much longer battery life, is much cheaper, handwriting recognition is good and the organiser apps are great. All these add up to a more convenient accessible device.
I've recently found my Agenda to be very usable after all the work that's gone on. You can get a pretty good deal with the developer model as well. See http://www.agendacomputing.com/ for the mostly finished site. See http://developer.agendacomputing.com/ for the developer deal, and see http://www.csee.umbc.edu/~acedil1/agenda/ for more information about the community supporting it.
1. Battery life. Not having a color display, 16mb ROM, 32mb RAM, 200+mhz CPU, etc. means that the batteries last a lot longer in the Palm.
2. Application choices and size. Palm apps tend to be very compact because, unlike WinCE, the Palm OS is only as complicated as it needs to be and no more so. If the apps are small, you don't need 32MB of RAM to store them. Palm apps are widely available and have been developed for years.
3. Price. While I can easily afford a $600 handheld, it's more than I want to spend. If my $150 Palm breaks, I replace it and throw the old one away. If a $600 iPaq breaks, I'm going to have to get it fixed and be without it while it is being serviced.
4. Basic functionality. The Palm does what I need. I can use it for note-taking. I can store addresses and phone numbers in it. I can use it for an alarm clock, calculator, or handheld game machine (I like chess, go, Othello, and other board games). While I could play action games on the iPaq, I have a real computer for that.
Neither the Palm nor the iPaq devices will substitute for a laptop or desktop computer. You can develop apps on them (with great pain). You can, in a pinch, use them for e-mail. But they just aren't real PCs. When people are demanding 14" and larger screens in laptops, it's pretty clear that the 3" screen in a handheld is no substitute.
In closing, decide if you need a handheld. Figure out what you will use it for. If you are like most people, the Palm devices will suit your needs fine. And you probably won't need color, either.
Fortunately for the developer community, Young Hoon Kim, a G.Mate programmer, ported X to the YOPY and made it available "unofficially." Finally, giving up trying to hold back water, G.Mate agreed an X environment would become the new base installation for the YOPY, dumping W Windows. In addition, a 2.4.x kernel would be made available, largely based on the work done by the Handhelds.org group.
/. last time. He's doing a good job to steer G.Mate getting back on right track. The problems with YOPY is that they don't know what makes a Linux handheld different. The following paragraph gave you an answer.
/. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
I submitted Young Hoon Kim's interview to
This shift in direction demonstrates (again) that introducing an incompatible technology without strong justification just won't work. Particularly amongst open/free programmers, no one is willing to invest in your new technology unless its worth their time. While W may be faster than X on a 206-MHz machine, is it worth the loss of compatibility? Empirically, NO!
See that NO? The key is to have an open platform PDA. G.Mate didn't see it before. That's the reason why it worth our time waiting, regardless of the fact that it's coming late.
If you want a consumer product, go for iPaq. It's there and it's good; but open source developers probably won't be interested in writing for CE.
Of course, unless your intention is to hack this iPaq like in Embedded Debian project; but then again, you've to pay for a preinstalled Windows CE.
 _
First: don't do palm, unless you want flawless scheduling, calendaring, contact listing, memo writing and a host of quick apps. Palm has vastly inferior processor speeds, very low upgradability and an OS that, while quick, lacks any real power to go beyond the 64k Personal Organizer level of functionality. In short, if you want neat, programmable, full colour, true internet & wireless networking -- in essence, a real computer in your pocket -- don't go palm.
Second -- don't go iPaq if you plan on using your organizer mostly indoors. The screen is just awful, though it excels outside. Me, I went Casio for the screen -- true 64k colour plane, beautifully backlit, and slightly larger than the iPaq -- but I can't see shit outside during the day. I have to duck under awnings when on the street, but luckily, i'm almost never on the street. Casio has great upgradability -- slip on an adapter and a wavelan card, you've got a wireless network. Slip in a compact flash modem, you're on the 'net from a hotel room. Connect to your cell over IR, and you're netted again. Memory, cameras, hard disks, all sorts of stuff is in the compact flash form factor, and unlike the iPaq you don't need a seperate sleeve to have the functionality -- there's a little door that hides your card when it's not plugged into the wall.
Of course, Casio was just my choice, and a lot of people will lead you to the iPaq for its slightly faster processor (hint: it doesn't really matter...my casio E-100, their first colour unit, does mp3 and mpeg well enough, and it's only 133 MHz). But I think the great screen, and the ability to push more than one button at once (the Compaq won't let you do this...kills gaming in MameCE) outweigh the slight advantage of the StrongARM.
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