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Microsoft Fakes Citizen Letters of Support
An Anonymous Coward writes: "According to this Seattle Times article, Microsoft is sending letters to Utah's Attorney General in support of the company, but with fake signatures of citizens (some of whom are dead!). The article says: "Letters sent in the last month are on personalized stationery using different wording, color and typefaces, details that distinguish Microsoft's efforts from lobbying tactics that go on in politics every day. State law-enforcement officials became suspicious after noticing that the same sentences appear in the letters and that some return addresses appeared invalid."" The original source appears to be this story in the LA Times today. We here at Slashdot would like to take the time to say that strong competition and innovation have been the twin hallmarks of the technology industry, and if the future is going to be as successful as the recent past, the technology sector must remain free from excess regulation.
http://128.241.244.96/portal/uploads/27000/27549_w inrg.swf
This
> Microsoft is sending letters to Utah's Attorney General
> in support of the company, but with fake signatures
> of citizens (some of whom are dead!).
Oh my God! The dead have risen, and they're supporting Microsoft!
(with apologies to the Simpsons)
Insert simplistic political, ideological, or personal proselytization here.
The two of us, undersigned, wish to protest your needless hassling of the legendary innovator Microsoft. Please desist.
(signed)
Generalissimo Francisco Franco (Ret.)
John Lennon (Beatle)
Lets wait until the investigation is finished and then, if it's Microsoft, bash them really good.
Didn't MS get a black eye over this before? What has changed to make them think they can get away with it this time?
People write for and against organizations and corporations all the time, let 'the people' speak, MS. Believe it or not, quite a few will speak in your favor.
If you are not getting good press and 'the people' are not happy with your product, that means the marketplace is actually working as it should and people will find someone else with whom to do buisness. Free enterprise means that 'the people' decide whether or not your company survives.
This is not the 'big business' that some folks are talking about when they are looking towards freedom of speech, this is hogwash made by a monopoly looking to embed itself so far up everyone's butt that they can put out the trash they have been putting out and make people pay for the priviledge of owning a piece of the trash.
What's even more pathetic is that a lot of people will still claim that there are not illegal/immoral/fattning business practices going on here.
DanH
Cav Pilot's Reference Page
UNIX - Not just for Vestal Virgins anymore
This innovation allows the user to create form letters with ease. It automatically searches the Social Security Administration for deceased individuals to use as senders.
Great for mass marketing.
I think Microsoft was just trying it out.
Sean D.
"Hmm. I am to metaphor cheese as metaphor cheese is to transitive verb crackers!"
Microsoft is realises that they're dead soon!
If all those WinTrolls(TM) on messageboards, usenet and letters-to-the-editor - which we've become so familiar with - are infact just P.R.-company propagandaists.
After the loads of bad press that Sony got for fake critics and staged testimonials for their movies, you'd think that Microsoft would have thought better than to do something like this...
-- Pauley
Asuming the answer is "no it's not a crime" the next questions I wonder are - can it be (given the First Amendment), and should it be (seeing that it's essentially political fraud)?
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
Microsoft has tried to cheat people before, but apparently they did not learn anything from the experience. Why dosen't Gates figure it out, its harder than you think to fool the Feds.
You just have to laugh out loud when you read something like this. A company that has so much scrutiny focused on it for underhanded tactics - is using some of the most fraudulent tactics known to man.
The worst part - and not so laughable - I'd bet better than even money that in the end the US government will let them get away with everything... but that's just me being cynical, right?
BlackNova Traders
Maybe its the US postal service we should be blaming?? I find it very hard to believe that microsoft would stoop this low.
...but with fake signatures of citizens (some of whom are dead!).
...and in fact, Microsoft doesn't actually do this themselves. Several different "pro-Microsoft" groups are undertaking this.
This is misleading. Microsoft is not sending the letters to the final destination; based on personal surveys, pre-written and pre-stamped letters are sent out to individuals, who then sign and send. In addition, the article states:
Utah officials found two of the pre-fab letters bore the typed names of dead people. Those names had been crossed out by family members who signed for them. And another letter came from "Tuscon, Utah," a city that doesn't exist.
So the statement implying that the dead had been stuffing the ballot box is misleading, to say the least - but no explanation is offered for Tucson, Utah.
But... is is sleazy? You're damn right it is. It even sounds, from the tone of the article, like this isn't a common practice. Is it wrong? Probably.
But it's not as bad as the caption said.
(Favorite section: Microsoft complaining about 'well-funded special interest companies.' Um?)
The first intelligent phrase ever spoken occurred today
" We here at Slashdot would like to take the time to say that strong competition and innovation have been the twin hallmarks of the technology industry, and if the future is going to be as successful as the recent past, the technology sector must remain free from excess regulation."
The Los Angeles Times reported 3 years ago a similar scheme, where Microsoft was planning "a massive media campaign designed to influence state investigators by creating the appearance of a groundswell of public support for the company." [LA Times, "Microsoft Plans Stealth Blitz to Mend Its Image Public relations", Apr 10, 1998]. At the time that target was for free-lance writers to write opinion pieces, which would then be billed to Microsoft as an out of pocket expense.
The only difference is, at the time Microsoft claimed that the idea it "was merely a proposal and 'not something we are moving on'" while this time they seem to be executing this plan.
Faked video tapes, lying executives, and now this. Perhaps I'm overreacting (and it's 7 a.m. for me, so maybe I am), but can this company's actions get any worse? If the government itself were caught doing something like this, people would be in an uproar. But when it's Microsoft, most people respond with, "well, what can you do?"
Insert simplistic political, ideological, or personal proselytization here.
This is too funny. I wish I had been a fly on the wall at the meeting where this was brought up and given the go ahead.
(please dont bother to moderate me)
if you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans
That this behavior should be a FELONY. Much worse
than DMCA and other such nonsense.
if m$ had been split - each half would be able to blame the other over things like this :-)
Do Unto Others As You Would Have Others Do Unto You - ONLY HARDER!
Do you expect anything different from M$?
Isn't this mail fraud? I mean, the FBI adds mail (or wire) fraud to just about every case they prosecute; it's an incredibly broad statute. And I wouldn't be surprised if these letters were sent over state lines, so it's a federal case...
Of course I gotta find out what technology they are using so I can send letters supporting Linux when I'm dead and gone too :)
On a more serious note (not really) you have to wonder what brainiac came up with this - can you imagine the brainstorming session?
OK - so I'm still on my first cup of coffee :)
Top Most Bizarre/Disturbing Error Messages
Unfortunately this is simply another tactic in a corporation's arsenal. Legislation is a very powerful weapon, and companies that get on the right side of decisions reap enormous benefits. Just look at farmers. You can't expect companies to not use such a huge, efficient tool, big companies like Microsoft really have to to survive. Microsoft is smart enough to see where the real power is, and they will keep attempting to influence government any way they can so long as government can change the rules of our so called "free market" at any time. With the right legeslation you can destroy a competitor.
There is no need to be good at the game when you can change the rules. As long as our government remains the way it is, this will never change.
"By doubting we come at the truth." - Cicero
I bet this will go over really well in the courts!
It is very fortunate that most people who do something bad, and are in danger of getting caught, attempt to cover up their crime. That way, it gets quite a bit easier to spot the deliberate criminal.
Stop the brainwash
Gunning for the Presidency ?
"We here at Slashdot would like to take the time to say that strong competition and innovation have been the twin hallmarks of the technology industry, and if the future is going to be as successful as the recent past, the technology sector must remain free from excess regulation."
I think that one of the things that have gotten us to the point of bloated, unstable software is a LACK of regulation and recourse against some of the larger Software companies.
Companies like General Motors or Boeing must abide by safety and quality standards, while a Microsoft doesn't, even though it's products may or may not have more of an impact on daily lives and safety than cars by GM or planes from Boeing.
The point-click-lock-you-in EULA has done away with the ability to have stable software on a computer for the vast majority of users in the United States and the rest of the world.
Hoping for a hands off approach will not make it better, it will make it worse. I think that if you make a product, physical or virtual (software) you should be held responsable for the quality if you are charging money for it. Getting the software industry to the same level that the automotive, aerospace or appliance industry is, isn't excess...it's minimum regulation.
You'd think their dirty tricks dept. would have been a bit smarter than to get caught like that.... oops...
[Letter No.1 ...]
...
...]
...
...]
"Dear attorney General, Microsoft is great!! Resistance is Futile. Joe Bloggs."
[Letter No.2
"To the Attorney General, Microsoft is the best!! Resistance is Futile. Mary Jane."
[Letter No.3
"FTAO: Attorney General : I wish people would stop picking on Microsoft, it's a wonderfull company!! Resistance is Futile. A Borg."...
[Letter No.4....ad nasuem...
*snigger*
CNN Microsoft AOL Time Warner Mc Donalds start writing letters to the goverment using fake ID's.... hang on, why bother? They'll be able to control what's on TV, the Internet, Magazines etc. So no-one will be the wiser.
This can only mean one of two things: their marketing staff is too lazy to get real support letters, or they don't have enough supporters to write letters. The answer is obviously number one - any company with millions of products in the hands of consumers can find at least a hundred people willing to write in their favor. Even Ma Bell had customers that were against their breakup. I'm dumbfounded that their staff could be that short-sighted to fake letters, though. The time spent faking could have been spent simply talking to customers and getting the real opinions - no matter which way the opinions go.
What's your damage, Heather?
but fortunately reboot can help.
With all the recent articles about "astroturfing" (I'd link to them, but search is down right now) here on Slashdot, why is it that when a Linux group does it, it's the responsiblity of a single person who is quickly singled out, but when the group from Redmond does it, suddenly it's the entire corporation that is to blame?
All we know is that we have a single person, perhaps more, sending invalid letters to the Utah Attorney General. For all we know, it could be just one person within Microsoft sending them because of a mis-interpreted order.
Actually, the more I think about it, for all we know, it is actually a Linux supporter who is trying to discredit any valid grass-roots campaign that has sprung up for Microsoft.
Let's not jump to conclusions here, folks; Let's wait for the facts before we start grandstanding about how terrible the Big Bad Corporation Microsoft is, mmmkay?
they've been astroturfing this place for years with bogus "I love MSIE, w2k, VB, and all other MSTD" posts. It's nice to see them busted.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I know this is a bit naive, but it never ceases to amaze me how much large companies end up spending on marketing, lobbying, litigation and now fake grass roots.
If these large companies spent half what they spend trying to protect a market for existing product, and instead develop improved and varied products, they would never be in danger of declining profits.
More and more I believe that large corporations are less examples of free market Darwinism and are more akin to a nice big bureaucracy where you rise to the level of your incompetence.
its a pretty cool site, you should check it out.
Is there a mail fraud case in this?
http://windows.scares.us
I knew Astrosurfing, I learned that word when I saw that story on /. about M$ posting pro-M$ messages in internet forums :
should we call this Astromailing ?
If Microsoft want people to send letters to their attorney general, President Bush and their local congressman, then I think that Slashdot reader should oblige and do, JUST THAT. Send letters to your attorney general, President Bush and your local congressman and explain how Microsoft should be hemmed in and how you feel that the future lies in open source.
DO IT, DO IT NOW
You'll fell much better, plus you'll be helping 'ol Billy boy out with those letters.
sic transit biscuitus
Nor is it surprising that, absent that support, microsoffet would fabricate it.
But those companies say they haven't tried to drum up activism by the public.
methinks that none of them has attempted to 'mine' the dead vote, either...
sadly submitted from my MS box. ;)
better check your sarcasm alert system... it appears to be broken.
Did you somehow disable the use of italic fonts in your browser?
Who do you P.R. company bastards think you are posting vial lies and untruths & filth on Slashdot?
After getting over my knee-jerk reaction of Those-Microsoft-scumbags-have-done-it-again, I got to thinking of the many times over the years that I've listened to Presidential Press Secretaries talk about "telegrams" pouring in to the White House in strong support of whatever unpopular decision the sitting President just had to announce.
This sort of thing is as old as politics. Business and politics have been intertwined since there have been business and politics. Read William Manchester's book "The Arms of Krupp" to see what real lobbying is all about.
I suspect that what is making the Attornys-General really unhappy is that they see the Microsoft anti-trust case slipping away. While MS will certainly be penalized (since the findings of fact have been upheld), their delaying tactics will, in the long run, probably force Justice to negotiate another agreement that MS can start ignoring five minutes after it's signed.
---Any philosophy that can be put "in a nutshell" belongs there.---
The part that just kills me is this
The maker of Windows and other software also has stepped up campaign donations, becoming the fifth-largest soft-money donor to the national Republican and Democratic parties in 1999-2000, and it has hired a slew of well-connected lobbying firms.
These letters contained this information.This is all out bribery at this point...and not even close to subtle.
You'd think that with all the time Microsoft saves on security testing, they could spend it on being exceptionally deceitful instead of just doing it half-assed.
Face it, most people can't articulate themselves very well and prefer to use boilerplate letters. It doesn't make their opinions any less valid.
Yet again Microsoft has seemed to manage to let us down again, which is a great shame.
This is the shining example of why open-source is so great: we have no need to use such negative propaganda. No ! We produce such great software that it screams from the heights of the skyscrapers, yet without a single person uttering it.
Yes, it truly resonates around the planet.
I am an avid supported of the open-source movement, using Windows 2000 at work, and running MacOS at home. I like the flexibility and the amount of options that open-source brings. So why does Microsoft have to go and ruin the open-source movement's name with something like this ?
MS has been producing quality open-source software for what ? Twenty years ?
WHY do they have to tarnish out name with this ?
It's absolutely pointless ? Or is it ? If they start doing this then they'll start being laughed at more and more. This is a good thing.
Then the true commercial success story, Linux, will jump to the desktop prooving one again that you can't trust open-source software such as windows, No you can't at all.
Linux shall only get stronger from this kind of press.
If dead people can send letters, they surely can vote. If Microsoft can get away with this, they will surely try something bigger. Given the state of the voting system in the US, the logical next step would be to try to get Bill Gates for president, he has the money, and with all dead of the country voting for him, he can win easily. They simply need a good wording for this, something like open voting. This would solve the Departement of Justice Problem.
Then again, this new technique would simply be a rehash of something done by other coutries around the world for a long time, so it's a perfect Microsoft inovation...
Asked why some phrases were identical, Prendergast then conceded that the letters were written by his operation. "We'd write the letter and then send it to them," Prendergast said. "That's fairly common practice."
Sorry to burst your collective bubble, but he's right -- many, many groups do this sort of thing. They go out and find people who share their views on an important issue before congress, and give them suggestions. If you think that's evil, then all the real grass-roots political organizations must be evil, too!
In fact, I've seen plenty of "Dear Congresscritter: This is why the DMCA Sucks" sample letters posted here, with suggestions to pass them along.
All this article shows is that some MS supporters will just repeat whatever the company tells them to ("Innovation! Progress! XP!"), and do not have the capability to think for themselves, or at least phrase things in a different manner than what the company suggests, even when they agree.
And this, more than anything else, is why Microsoft is keeping their market share -- because they've managed to capture the automatic loyalty of millions, with what most slashdotters think is crapware. That's the really evil thing about this...
Minnesota Attorney General Mike Hatch said he got about 300 of those. "It's sleazy," Hatch said. "This is not a company that appears to be bothered by ethical boundaries."
Hatch responded with his own mailings to the senders, explaining his position.
Some of the recipients wrote back by hand, apologizing for passing along the Microsoft-inspired letters. "I sure was misled," one wrote. "It's time for you to get out there & kick butt."
So let me get this straight. You sign your name to a letter Microsoft sends you to mail to your state's attorney general. Then when your letter is questioned, you plead innocent saying you were misled and then ask the AG to "kick butt"? Hello? Do you sign everything people put in front of you without questioning it or at least understand what you are signing. Nevermind. Don't answer.
i knew bill gates was eveil, but raising the dead?
it just makes me think of some b horror movie...
bill gates and his army of undead vs the lawyers...
which one is the protagonist?
write a letter to Utah's Attorney General expressing my view that Microsoft deserves eternal damnation. Also I'll produce enough evidence that I'm not dead at time of writing, e.g. my photo with today's newspaper.
Anyone with me?
Don't we see similiar things happening on TV? Don't we see commercials where celebrities are obviously paid to "love" a product? Don't we watch weight-loss commercials where people claim that the new magical weight loss product was responsible for their 300 lb drop? Does George Foreman love his little grilling trinkets solely because they are "high quality"?
Grass-roots specialists typically charge $25 to $75 for each letter from ordinary citizens and much more for letters from public officials or celebrities, said Nancy Clack of Precision Communications, a political communications company.
Apparently this happens regularly. Why aren't getting angry at the angency that makes a business out of these desceptive tactics as well as being angry at Microsoft? YES I agree that it's pretty dirty on account of MS. I agree that it's very misleading. However, I don't agree with the immediate slashdot bias placed on microsoft. It this News for Nerds? Or is it Editorials for Nerds? Mod me down for a trolling if you please.
Dear Attorney General,
I but a humble gas station attendant. I earn a dollar an hour pumping gas for the Mobil-Exxon corporation, which I use to support my fifteen children and my wife. I often serve gas to big politicians, driving around in their Lincoln limosines and fancy corporate jets, and know that there is a gap between the concerns of ordinary people like me and the government.
As an ordinary person, average in every way, I wish to express my concern about the continued poor treatment of Microsoft, a company that makes great, innovative software. Why should Microsoft be penalised for being successful? Why should Microsoft be denied the right to innovate, a right they use to produce great products like Windows 98, Microsoft Word, and Excel? Would you rather have a world where operating systems, word processors, and spreadsheets don't exist?
While I have never used one of Microsoft's great products, I know that Microsoft software is, thanks to their freedom to innovate, the fuel that makes the American Capitalist System run. As a gas pump operator, I am all to aware of what happens when you don't put fuel into something. Imagine a future where an office worker is unable to write an Excel macro, or a stockbroker unable to create a shortcut on his desktop to a often accessed directory, simply because the government has forced Microsoft to put America Online icons everywhere.
In summary, I would like to close by saying that this is why ordinary, honest, hard working Americans such as myself support Microsoft's freedom to innovate, and their right to create great products.
PS: My wife here - please don't respond to this letter, as my husband's just died. But it's a real letter, honest.
Racists should be sent back to where they came from
This is NOT illegal or even fraudulent behavior. According to the article:
While this is certainly misleading in the manner they are doing it, it is far from fraudulent. How does this differ from all the other form letters that people send their congressmen every day? Throughout the Sklyarov case, there have been dozens of form letters out there written by people who encourage you to copy them and send them to your congressman, to Adobe, and to anyone else of importance. When you copy someone else's well-written letter and send it as if it were yours aren't you just saying that you agree with their sentiments and don't need to restate the same thing in your own words? What's the difference between this and signing a carefully worded petition? Isn't that a case of allowing a good writer to craft a statement for you?
While there is no question that this is a more refined way of doing it -- personalizing the letters a bit -- no one is claiming that M$ is sending out these letters directly using other people's names. They are sending a letter to someone, who is then signing the letter and mailing it, thus saying that they agree with the sentiments the letter expresses...just like a petition. While I certainly agree that they are a bunch of sleazes willing to spend millions of marketing dollars on making themselves look like our friends, I don't see how this could be called fraud in any sense of the word.
It's not funny till someone gets hurt.
"We here at Slashdot would like to take the time to say that ... the technology sector must remain free from excess regulation. "
Why is it that when it comes to anything that has to do with society, the \. editors (yes, the slash leans left on purpose) push forward an authoritarian and often socialist view of government regulation and initiative, but when it comes to technology, the goverment must stay out of the equation? (I take "excess regulation" to mean anything that encroaches upon the freedoms of the producers and consumers to operate without fraud).
Why is it so hard to draw the same conclusion that the government that governs least, governs best when it comes to other issues besides Microsoft?
Reasonable people usually want the same things, but often it is difficult to shed the shackles of years of misguidence from politicos to discover that the methodolgy to allow for the discovery of the solutions to the ills of our world is usually brilliantly simple: don't force anyone at the point of a gun to do anything unless that action infringes upon the inherint freedoms of someone else, and society as a whole will generally stumble upon a cheap (in terms of ALL costs, not just dollars or deutchmarks) solution.
In the case of Microsoft, I often differ from my fellow libertarians. Microsoft has engaged in fraud for over 15 years and continues to do so. This is not to be tolerated and is deserving of punishment as fraud is indeed a way of infringing upon the rights of others. In a free society, Microsoft wouldn't enjoy the tacit protection of government allowing it to continue its march towards market domination. I submit that free (as in speech) innovation and its truthful promotion in consumer computer technology would lead to cheaper, stabler and more useful solutions than the quagmire we suffer from today. Unfortunately, we the people depend upon the StAGs and the Justice Department to do our policing for us. Their inefficiencies have allowed Microsoft to defraud the consumers, its partners, and its competition, and as the Wheels of Justice grind ever so slowly, Microsoft has a free hand to continue its nefarious deeds.
So, yes, I agree with the \. editors statement but I wish that they would realize that it follows true on their other topics as well.
Everyone here who thinks that Microsoft should be pummeled for the things they have done needs to write a letter. Do not type it, hand write it (unless your handwriting and spelling are that bad). Use your own words. Give the guys in charge a letter from the trenches. Tell them how you personaly, and the companies you work for, have been affected by Micosofts monopoly. Remember, you don't have to convice the feds that Microsoft is a monopoly; it's been proven in court. Tell them what you think is the best solution but don't say it's the only one. Get the point across that *something* must be done. Lets see if the slashdot effect can be extended to snail-mail. :)
You can be sure that I'll be sending a few letters.
Why is it so hot? Where am I going? What am I doing in this handbasket?
It was from the pro-microsoft group and was essentially a pre-written letter, complete with a stamped envelope. All I had to do was sign it and send it off. I chose, instead, to consign it to the tender mercies of the waste-management industry....
Maybe it's just a cool new feature in Outlook Express.. every time you check your e-mail it automatically sends a message to them saying "Bill, I love you !!".
Trolls like this dork make me think that /. should disallow posts from browsers running IE.
Regulators became suspicious of the ruse after noticing that the same sentences appear in the letters and that some return addresses appear invalid.
Hard to send out spam to invalid addresses, no?
As for that "other" group or two on the MS payroll:
Microsoft referred questions about the new campaign to the group running it, Americans for Technology Leadership, which gets some money from Microsoft but won't say how much. ATL was founded in 1999 as a spinoff of the Assn. for Competitive Technology, another pro-Microsoft group.
Asked about the relationship between the telephone calls to citizens and the subsequent letters, ATL Executive Director Jim Prendergast initially said those who agreed the prosecution was misguided merely were given suggestions about what to use in drafting their own letters. "We gave them a few bullet points, but that's about the extent of it," he said. Asked why some phrases were identical, Prendergast then conceded the letters were written by his operation. "We'd write the letter and then send it to them," he said. "That's fairly common practice."
Hmmmm. MS is not getting good value here, but I suppose it's cutting edge, the best lobby ever TM! Must be using MS Loby, cuz it's transparent and sucks:
"It's an obvious corporate attempt to manipulate citizen input," said Rick Cantrell, community relations director for the Utah attorney general.
"You can just tell these were engineered. When there's a real groundswell, people walk in, they fax, they call. We get handwritten letters."
Yawn, another second rate offering from MS.
Kissing two points of Karma goodbye! Mr. Overturf is sure to blast this one to -1 flamebait. Eat me!
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I've got to wonder... usually the way the news media protect themselves is by saying that "so-and-so alleges that..." "it's been claimed that..." and "reports indicate that...". Here, we have a slashdot posting that clearly claims that Microsoft broke a law which, not only have they not been found guilty of, but of which they have not even accused! No one said they faked letters... merely that they "helped" citizens write letters. That's not a crime. In fact, all groups do that ("Please sign and mail the following petition..."). But about the libel issue... normally, to prove libel, you need to prove a gross disregard for the facts... since slashdot added a link to another story, that would suggest they read the other story... so to say that MS faked signatures is clearly unfounded.
-- Is "Sig" copyrighted by www.sig.com?
Do you really think that the companies who are helping the justice department aren't doing things like this? It's mentioned in the article that Oracle got caught when they hired a PI to check a "Pro-Microsoft" companie's garbage.
One choice quote below: Tell me, what ISN'T sleazy about politics? Lobbying is anything but ethical, so that makes any form of politics ethical.
-- Dan
After reading the article I can only fathom an image in my mind of Bill Gates, sitting alone in a dark office laughing maniacally as he types page after page...
"All competition, innovation, assimilation, and no play make Bill a dull boy. All competition, innovation, assimilation, and no play make Bill a dull boy...."
The intensive training seminars that Ball-mer (CEO of Microsoft) did for his employees pays off. The employees know, by showing enough idiocy, they could be one day promoted to upper management. Keep up the good work.
Then at least 75% of /.ers couldn't post.
Although I am disgusted by this, it really is not without precedent in the realm of polotical lobbying. Anyone who is involved with Amnesty International will be familiar with the idea of "Urgent Action" notices being sent out to be used by people as templates for pseudo-personal aerograms.
I'm sure that other well-organized grass roots organizations have similar mechanisms.
I really wonder if any of this really matters. I mean to me it seems like microsoft can do pretty much whatever they want and no matter how bad it is it ends up being a side note where the average person could care less. Now if president Bush had some equivalent scandal, people would demand his resignation and such. With the horrible security in just about anything relating to Microsoft, buggy software, and severely anti-competitive business practices - you'd THINK that MS would have a huge PR problem. In reality it seems to me that most people are either indifferent, or have only a slightly poor opinion of MS. People think I'm an anti-MS fanatic just because I say that 80% of their software is (in my opinion) crap. I really have to wonder how time after time MS can get away with this sort of thing with virtually no penalties.
maybe the Attorney General got suspicous when every 20th letter said "hacked by chinese".
"You stinkin govenrment lawyers should stay offa their backs..." - Jimmy Hoffa
"You should let Microsoft spread its wings..." - Amelia Earhart
"Four score and 7 years ago, Bill Gates set forth in search of freedom..." - Abraham Lincoln
"I cannot tell a lie, Microsoft is not a monopoly..." - George Washington
All your signatures are belong to us!
FLR
Strike 3!
/. but lets get real... To anyone who still had a doubt weather Microsoft was just a legitimatly agressive buisness doing it's best to further competition this should be the last straw.
1) Microsoft commits purgery in Judge Jacksons court (no wonder he hates them!) by sumitting a doctored video tape.
2) Microsoft bribes the senate to lower the funding for the Department of Justice, that at the time just happens to be threatening them with a monopoly break up.
3) Microsoft sends in fake "ground swell" protest letters, from DEAD PEOPLE!!
I know I'm preaching to the quire here at
If they show no remorse about undermining one of the fundemental processes of liberty and freedom this country (by keeping in touch with our senators we keep them "honest" and in touch with the people, hopefully). Microsoft has now 3 times undermined the basic tenents of freedom and first amendment rights in this country (I'm not even counting their lobbying support for the DMCA, here and abroad).
This is what every futurist has feared, the rise of the mega corp into an unethical, bohemoth that mows over citizens in the pursuit of one more buck, or even more power.
Normally I'm against theft. I do think STEALING software is wrong. But this changes things. In a big way. Microsoft isn't just trying to expand it's market, it's attacking consumers. By attacking our freadom of speech they are atacking one of our fundamental civil liberties. SO I SAY STEAL, PIRATE, RIP, BREAK, AND CRACK EVERY PIECE OF MICROSHAFT SOFTWARE THAT COMES YOUR WAY!! Microsoft complains about billions in losses from piracy now, imagine how tough we could really make it for them if we all coppied every piece of MS software that we see, and then encouraged our NON-Geek friends to copy from us. Every "Mundane" out there has at least one geek friend that keeps his/her computer running. I say we use that. Every geek should encourage piracy amongst his friends, and buisness associates. Let's hit MS in the only place they care about, their wallet!!!
?? Can software piracey be protected under the first amendment as a political protest ??
I would rather be ashes than dust!
I love the smell of Astroturf in the morning!
******
"What makes you think I care about your opinions?"
Where exactly is the problem? PR firms call the people and asks if they agree with MS's stance. If they do, they send them a form letter that they can then sign and mail to their congressman. IF they change their mind, they can throw the letter away. They can tell the PR guy they don't agree and nothing will be done. It's been done by many groups for years and years. Unless I'm missing something, it's just a case of MS and their PR firm making it easier for people to mail their representatives.
"Information wants to be expensive" - Stewart Brand, the same guy who said "Information wants to be free"
Because if you did, you'd have realized that it was sarcasm.
"The stealthy way this virus mimics the normal conditions of the Windows Operating System is uncanny. We had this virus on our own systems for three weeks undetected," a security expert told this reporter. "By producing random GPLs to assure the user that everything is operating normally, this virus can remain undetected by even the most expert Windows user."
Officials first suspected the company of falsely sending letters of support for their appeal, but Redmond denys the charge. "This is a malicious attempt by a communist hacker to threaten our very way of life by discrediting the biggest, most innovative company in the history of the Universe. If we had been the creators of this virus, we would have required users to pay a small fee for the service. Clearly this is not the work of anyone at [the company]." one Microsoft spokesman said today.
Lending credence to this statement, a variant of the virus has been soliciting funds for the All-American Committee for the Removal, Containment, and Burial of Tom Daschle's toupee. A spokesman from the Senator's office declined to comment, saying he was unable to speak publicly about matters of national security.
Shortly afterward, Slashdot was infested with Microsoft advocates.
You see, if I were to actually read the article, then that would mean that I couldn't get such a low number on my posts. You see, while I was typing that, there were already 14 comments, and I had to get in under 30. I think I did ok...
.. microsoft sending mail bombs to, say linus thorvalds or alan cox? In some country's (like here in austria) you can get arrested for sending faked mail, and IMHO it is also very reasonable or do you want that somebody makes a statement in your name....
".Sig Stealer" was here
So, yes, I agree with the \. editors statement but I wish that they would realize that it follows true on their other topics as well.
Oh, how easily some people miss the subtle hints of irony.
But then again, you should also read the Non-Libertarian FAQ to set your view of the world right (or left, which is right). And travel a bit (according to the rant about "comforts" on your homepage, you are for a big surprise).
______________
OTTERS RULE.
This was clearly the work of a disgruntled former employee. Upset because he lost his job, Clippy wrote the letters, knowing that the fraud would be discovered and that Microsoft would get blamed. Revenge is sweet.
Legislation is a very powerful weapon, and companies that get on the right side of decisions reap enormous benefits. Just look at farmers.
Because we all know that farmers get everything they want from the government and get "enormous benefits" compared to regular people. Give me a break...
Lets wait until the investigation is finished and then, if it's Microsoft, bash them really good.
Good point, I agree. Just because a journalist reported it does not mean that it is fact. If you read the article, you will notice that nothing indicates that it is actually M$ doing this. It could be anybody. The motive can be that of the letters which would help M$ or the motive is for the letters to be discovered as fake to hurt M$. Either way, it is too early to tell who actually was behind this.
(emphesis applied by submitter)
To the Attorney General of Utah:
FOURSCORE and seven years ago our fathers brought forth upon, this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.
Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. Let it also be known that I love the new feel of Microsoft WindowsXP. It's so easy to use, it's no wonder the'ye number one! And just like Windows98 promised, it's fatser, more stable, and makes it even easier to get on the internet! We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field as a final resting-place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.
But in a larger sense we cannot dedicate, we cannot consecrate, we cannot hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it far above our power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember, what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here, It is for us, the living, rather to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us, that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion; that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain; that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, and for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
Yours Truly,
Abraham Lincoln
It may not be a crime, but when investing I notice exactly the same pattern on the investment boards.
Lies, misleading numbers, and the give away: good news leaked onto the boards AHEAD of it being officially announced. Thats how I know it's from the company itself, who else has those numbers ahead of release?
Activity by a company itself to prop up its own share price by misrepresentation is illegal.
They should be raided and investigated immediately.
Somehow, that makes sense why W95 was codenamed "Chicago".
Will the next version of Windows be developed under "Daley"?
Mod Karma -1: I sed bad wurds. If I cep my mouf shut, I wud be at riyses.
--cough-- Headline of article --cough--
Microsoft lobbying campaign backfires; even dead people write in support of firm
Now how's that not fraudulent
So, What if we started a chain letter, spammed a billion email addresses asking them to send their political representatives mail protesting Microsoft. We would then get nailed for sending spam no?! This hardly sounds like justice served to me. Email spam vs snail mail spam???
I can't really believe that this would shock anyone..!?
I think it's shameful the way Slashdot $shameful_adverb dumps on Microsoft, a $supportive_phrase of our community. Without Microsoft, we might all be {a computerless nation|carving our own boot disks}. Thumbs up for Microsoft and its right to {innovate|forcefully monopolize} on our desktop!
Yours, etc. -
$name
$address
Mormon City, UT 96629
Three others use exactly these words: "If the future is going to be as successful as the recent past, the technology sector must remain free from excess regulation."
Would that be the recent past, or the not-so-recent past? Because I think I speak for a lot of people when I say that the technology sector should not repeat its "success" of the last six months.
> with, "well, what can you do?"
> -- sg3000
If you don't want to live in a plutocracy anymore, stop voting for the Democrats/Republicans/Libertarians (sic), and instead vote for parties that will allow protection from economic exploitation - if you choose to be protected. Really, how free are you when big government is replaced with the richest (and therefore most powerful) board of directors who decide things only based on short term financial gain.
CowboyNeal for president!
"Hit any user to continue."
Political Fraud? Come on now, that's like a crooked gangster, a dorky programmer, a bug-filled MS application...
~ now you know
But you are right. I know that at least Mike Hatch from MN has a history of keeping an eye on big business. He's done some lawsuits against other big companies too, like Qwest when they were switching people's phone company without their approval and tobacco companies. It was Minnesota's settlement with the tobacco companies that got all the documentation used by the other states and federal government in later trials. Can anyone say "running for governer"?
science is a religion
please cut out the following out of all frontpage generated websites or you automatically send your consent to microsoft that you agree with them
<meta name="M$ automated support statement generator" content="Microsoft will rule the world" submittername="your registry name">
".Sig Stealer" was here
FOUR out of five dead people choose Microsoft products over any other software... ;-)
Also recommended by Dr. Kevorkian.
I thought zombies only worked for Microsoft, I didn't know they also supported them.
Hmmm...
Time to brush up on the Necromicon if you ask me.
All your corpse are belong to us!
Take life easy: one bit at a time.
Has anyone called these people? First of all, the phone call is something outrageous like $100, just to talk to one of these goonies. Then, when you actually do get someone to talk to, they are about as helpful solving the problem as a 5 lb hammer. I haven't called recently, but a while back I interned as an IT person and we called once because of a bug in the IIS we were running, and needless to say I'll never call again.
~ now you know
If Microsoft is the 5th biggest contributer to both the Republicans and Democrats, vote in somebody that hasn't been bought. Give it a chance-there are already two states with independent governors. Why not make it more?
science is a religion
I found the link to the little incident way back in 1994 with Rick Segal, a microsoft employee. I guess at least microsoft has gotten smarter over the years, now they simply pay people offsite to do their dirty work.
Kudos microsoft, you really are the king of innovation!!
Slashdot is just trying to throw mud at Microsoft which is a very good firm and makes great software. I wish there were more companies like Microsoft who care for the computer user. I think everybody should buy those GREAT Microsoft products as soon as possible.
Signed,
David Manning
Film critic for the Ridgefield Press, now doing software criticism as well.
Why is it that when it comes to anything that has to do with society, the \. editors (yes, the slash leans left on purpose) push forward an authoritarian and often socialist view of government regulation and initiative, but when it comes to technology, the goverment must stay out of the equation? (I take "excess regulation" to mean anything that encroaches upon the freedoms of the producers and consumers to operate without fraud).
Uhh... They just combined the sentences in the fake letters created by the lobbyists.
Um... It was a joke. Laugh!
Goes to show even dead people prefer Microsoft!
And this business is allowed to feed it's brand of journalism to the public, claiming it to be ubiased news. The best part is that nothing will change. Despite showing a clear desire to deceive the American public by blatantly influencing elected officials with fabricated statements, today will be just another day for breaking news about sharks attacking missing interns. No corporate charter will be outright revoked, in the way that, for instance, an attorney would be instantly disbarred for deceiving a judge or simply their own client in the same way. If a local newspaper made up stories, I gaurantee it would take more flak than microsoft will over this, without even having to lie to any attorney generals.
Let's take a look at the big picture; corporations can commit corporate crimes because they have influence over the governing body, and because they control the mediums through which the public will ever hear about it. Choose your news outlet and their respective owner, which would you trust:
-Fox Broadcasting: News Corp - $$$
-ABC: Walt Disney Company - $$$
-CBS: Viacom-Infinity - $$$
-CNN: AOL-Time Warner - $$$ - $$$
-NBC: General Electric - $$$ - $$$
God bless America.
While I'm no fan of Microsoft's products, or the way that they try to manipulate other companies and their customers. How is having pro-Microsoft groups write out pre-drafted letters, to be read over, signed and sent in, any differnet than all of the pre-written letters that have been posted on Slashdot (and modded up signifying our approval) to be e-mailed to public officials over concerns that we have about the DMCA/Skylarov/DeCSS/whatever else we want to complain about?
Come on, why are we always so hypocritical?
And yet you hypocritically accuse someone, who accused someone of not reading the articles, of being a hypocrite by not reading the articles! Just because you read the headline doesn't mean you know what you're talking about. The *cough* text of both articles *cough* clearly explained that the letters from dead people were sent by relatives who signed for them: "Utah officials found two of the pre-fab letters bore the typed names of dead people. Those names had been crossed out by family members who signed for them."
Jane: Better spend it, or we won't get it again next year. Worse, it might go to another department...
Bob: How about we send out logo'ed thing-a-ma-jigs, like more of those sit on them, and they make you sound like you have gas?
Jane: Nope, to close to an actual product. We are trying to steer people away from thinking they "own" anything - they license, and give a ways don't promote that.
Bob: I'm stuck - no more creative juices after killing off clippy and then bringing him back.
later in PR....
Alice: We just got $47M - Lets start another grass roots campaign!
+++ UGUCAUCGUAUUUCU
You're right, I didn't even bother to read to the the article fully (apparently it hurt too much) and didn't make the connection between the editorial remark and the true nature of the story. I just ripped right through, seething with venom.
However, with that sarcasm, \. is even worse than I thought, then.
Shame on me for jerking my knee, so I do apologize for calling the editors hypocritical.
If you don't like Microsoft dirty tactics, just don't buy
their products anymore!
Don't buy, use, sell or recommend them. In other words,
don't do anything that could let Microsoft make more
profits.
I'm serious about that: you can't expect governments
to act against Microsoft's unhetical behaviour because
they're someway funded by MS. It's up to you to do
something.
So, stop feeding them and consider supporting great
people that is working hard to develop stable and
*trustworthy* systems and software.
After those faked "demonstrations" that worked so well in the DOJ trial, they thought this was a sure thing.
What the hell was that? Did a lawyer have his hand up your ass and make you say that?
---- It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again. It does this whenever it's told.
By the time Microsoft makes it move it will be too late. A whole bunch of dead people will have written their congressman asking them to stop the evil free software.
That said, it good to hear a libertarian recognize the role of Governement, rather than merely dissing it.
Why is it that when it comes to anything that has to do with society, the \. editors (yes, the slash leans left on purpose) push forward an authoritarian and often socialist view of government regulation and initiative
Why do you believe extreme authoritarianism is socialism? This is *NOT* true at all. Social Democratic and Communist principles have nothing to do with authoritarianism or Fascism. Stalin may have been a tyrant - but so are plenty of leaders when given an opportunity.
Think Nixon, Think about the AstroTurfing MS is doing in this article, Think about your Government, think about the *REALITY* of American McCarthyism.. (which is alive and well btw) and what *that* really means about America.
Id say that you have a very healthy Authoritarian-Capitalist system in America. You have a body, governing with the tact of Il Duce.
When you ignorantly berate socialism, by insinuating it is an 'extreme form of authoritarianism' is, at best, ignorant and misguided.
Would it surprise you to believe that Socialists have 'personal freedom' as one of its major goals? You do understand that being A Slave to the Bosses vs. A slave to the State vs A slave to the King still leaves you a slave. One of the tenants of Socialism (and Communism) is that the 'economy' and 'means of production' are controlled democratically - by citizens... they are given the additional Civic Right of helping guide their economic destiny, they are given the right to participate in the shaping of their economy.
American Dogma has convinced its people that "economic freedom and free markets mean real freedom, Socialist who seek to heavily regulate and direct the economy are really trying to take away your property && freedom". This is untrue - what Socialists mostly assert is that BOSSES (Capital 'owners') will not be permitted to rule the economy without the input of the citizenry... Everyone must work for a living, and Capital owners, when allowed run freely will incarnate themselves kings and rulers.
What does this have to do with the article? Well, when you think about it, M$, now completely so out of control - seemingly above the law - that it will now replace the political will of * real * people with its own.. you see the final step of Capitalism out of control - the inevitable end of Free Market Capitalism: Plutocracy
This is why people goto Seattle, Genova, Quebec and Washington, D.C. this September.
Couldn't agree more. The summary is not at all the same as the facts states in the article.
Some people posting stories here on slashdot seems to think it's ok to make things up just because he/she doesn't like a company.
Why not staying with the _facts_?
Paperclip: /pr/astroturf/currentsuits.asp , line 145] case?
It seems that you are writing a letter. Do you want me to change it into a letter supporting Microsoft in the [ODBC: SQL Error in
[Yes] [Yes]
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
They've made a grave error here.
GOD will punish them all
I guess no coffee yet didn't help either :)
---- It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again. It does this whenever it's told.
A pathetic behavior from a pathetic company who has seen the writing in the wall. MS is the epitome of everything disgusting and revolting in the corporate world.
They provide a free service writing protest letters for you, although I imagine they need to be in agreement with your politics. [I found the link over on protest.net]
Some how I think that this is not what microsoft did, considering that the politics are a bit different.
- - -
Radiofreenation.com
is a general news site based on Slash Code
"If You have a Story, We have a Soap Box"
- - -
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
This is clearly only the first version of Microsoft LetterWriter, so it's bound to have a few quirks. Everyone knows that by version 3.0, it'll be much easier to use, and will probably include support for faxes, answering machine messages, and "handwritten" fonts as well as these printed letters that were spotted so quickly.
Quote: "It's sleazy," Hatch said. "This is not a company that appears to be bothered by ethical boundaries." .... NO SHIT!!! And the public is just NOW finding this out? WTF?!?!?
instead of just the regular EndUserLicenseAgreement, there's now an ammendment at the bottom of the rest of the text with a letter already composed and adressed to your local representative.
Before proceding you must now click "agree" instead of "accept".
This letter is not from Microsoft, it was added by a non profit organization for the future of world conformance performance, who is only partially funded by microsoft.
"The Most Fun Possible on 4 wheels" is at SunBuggy in Las Vegas
Now I'd like to know what Hatch's letter said to inspire such a turnaround. Anyone have a copy?
Key to financial independence: Spend less than you earn. Save and invest the difference. Do it for a long time.
My guess would be that they modified code red, to send letters instead of attacking whitehouse.gov
I'd say that qualifies as good enough to cast stones.
VIrg
On the other hand, I've been using Microsoft's " Freedom to Innovate " channel to send hardcopy protests to elected officials with a strictly anti-MS and anti-DMCA tone. Note: it does require a hotmail/passport account.
Elected officials don't read email anymore. Orrin Hatch (the DMCA's writer) bounces email sent to him -- you're supposed to fill out an online form that doesn't mention IP or the MS antitrust suit under "topics".
The FTN sends my verbiage snail mail hardcopy. If you sound mad, like "damn DMCA", and "Tell Orrin Hatch to take personal responsibility for Sklyarov" they send back two-page responses telling you they don't agree with you (except for Borin' Orrin himself, who always agrees with me).
When I die, please cast my ashes upon Bill Gates -- for once, make him clean up after me!
I wonder if those dead people all sent their letters in alphabetical order, the way dead people usually vote in Bexar County, Texas...
"How many light bulbs does it take to change a person?" --BMcC-->
They probably retained John Edwards to speak with the deceased. I imagine that it went something like this.
John addressing a man in the crowd: Do you know a Mike...Michael?
Man in crowd nods emphatically: Michael was my father's name.
John: Michael's holding up a piece of corn, did he like corn, did he work in a corn related field?
Man: My father was born in Iowa!!
John: I'm sensing a crash, did Michael die in a car crash?
Man: No...but he did use Windows and his computer crashed alot!!
John: Michael has a message for you sir, "Strong competition and innovation
have been the twin hallmarks of the technology industry."
-- Good judgement comes with experience. -- Experience comes with bad judgement.
Here, let me help you get your head out of your ass.
I hadn't even read the article and I could tell the front page story was sarcasm. I even suspected they were quoting from the article I was about to read (and did, unlike you). Put the whole thing in context - a story about Microsoft people putting words in the mouths of other people, and here's Slashdot delivering the MS-party line. You don't get it. You must be new here.
I would like to close by saying if the future is going to be as successful as the recent past, the technology sector must remain free from excess regulation. Strong competition and innovation have been the twin hallmarks of the technology industry.
What M$ did apparently do is send a whole bunch of people prefab letters to sign and send to their rep. This is standard practice: I recently used a prefab EFF letter as the basis for a communication protesting taking DMCA style legislation into international trade regulations. Just this morning I used an American Chemical Society letter as the basis for an e-mail in support of increased funding for the NSF. Of course, being comitted to these causes I recast the basic message in my own words for higher impact. But this si the world of lobbying. And yes, the bigger the company, the less popular the case, the sleazier and more underhanded the tactics. But Microsoft is NOT, as this post seems to suggest, culling the names of the dead to create a fake citizens brigade ready to do their unholy bidding. (Of course now you've given them the idea...)
Oh, and by the way, yah lazy asses: best way to counter this? Send a real letter to your state attourney, to a DOJ official, to the president, letting them know that you think M$ engages in unfair, illegal, anticompetitive practices. Cause you know what? They do. And that's STILL bigger news than some dumb PR campaign.
Faked video tapes, lying executives, and now this. Perhaps I'm overreacting (and it's 7 a.m. for me, so maybe I am), but can this company's actions get any worse?
That's some hardcore knocking on wood there...
The coolest voice ever.
If it is not a crime - it's only fair game.
Try calling, oh, Douglas Adams something that damages his memory. You'll get sued for libel by his estate.
was created one week after Steve Gibson and Microsoft go to war over the WinXP Raw Sockets Vulnerability ... what a coincidence for a well-done spoof site of Steve Gibson's to go online a week after Steve and MS start fighting
has bogus/ridiculous/fake Registrant, Administrative, Technical, & Billing WHOIS information
I believe Juanita
Too right. It's amazing how many Microsoft drones turn up here whenever there's a public controversy that might cost Microsoft 0.01% of their cashflow. A few other companies do it here also but Microsoft is the most consistent and blatant.
I've got news for you, you arseholes. Astroturfing is fraud, pure and simple. The legal system hasn't caught up with you yet but people like you always get caught in the end because you can't resist just one more scam. Ever thought of doing something positive with your life rather than being a parasite?
The thing that amazes me is that of all of the people to whom to send an obviously fake letter campaign, they choose Mike Hatch. What the heck were they thinking?!?
Virg
P.S. Science is not a religion. I read your user comment, and I have a rebuttal, but it's offtopic to post it here and you don't provide an address.
Did anyone else notice that this detectives name is the same name as the cop from the movie "Falling Down" with Michael Douglas and Robert Duvall?
Seems strange to me I guess.
Either way, M$ is a bunch of screw-offs.
Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
A month-old letter from the now deceased:
"I am so fed up with being force-fed Micro$oft's garbage! It's a good thing I've already started organizing my friends into an anti-M$ lobbying group. Hey, maybe I can recruit that guy with the gun and the long microphone that's been hanging around outside my window."
On the one hand, I'm glad MS is getting found out oftener and oftener these days and in particular I'm glad their fake "grassroots support" is being exposed.
OTOH, this sentence is ominous (where it isn't misinformed): "State law-enforcement officials became suspicious after noticing that the same sentences appear in the letters and that some return addresses appeared invalid."
First of all, same sentences are no big deal. All organized letter-writing campaigns send out a script. Some of these are "sample letters" that people just copy, some are just bullet points but nobody should be surprised if some people come up with the same sentence to express the same thought.
What's ominous to me is that state law-enforcement is checking return-addresses of citizen petitions. I'd hate to think that information was being cross-referenced with anything anywhere. For instance, should I refuse to sign a petition or send a letter if I have outstanding traffic tickets?
324006
According to the article, the lobbyists sent to the Utah attorney handwritten letters. If they are genuine MS supporters, they should have used MS Outlook to send e-mail or MS Word to print it, right? Otherwise, what's the reason behind support MS if they are not even using their products? Why handwritten letters? Hmm...
¦ ©® ±
You know, this is bad and all, and it was very dumb of Microsoft (or more specifically, someone at Microsoft) for doing this. But at the same time, the Linux community does this kind of thing all the time. In the recent OpenGL vs. Direct3D thread, for example, everyone was bashing away at D3D based on info from years ago and without ever having used D3D. Pro-OpenGL rhetoric from such people is right up there with writing fake letters supporting OpenGL, in that they have the same lack of honest information content.
I wonder if they sent a fake letter of support from Sony critic David Manning...
As soon as they put a stamp on it and deposited it in a government mailbox for delivery, it became a matter of Mail Fraud . There might be other ramifications for falsifying documents sent to government officials too, but I'm not sure what it would be called. Fraudulent advertising practices that are meant to bolster sales or support for a company or product can easily justify complaints to the Better Business Bureau as well.
Windows RIP, software for corpses!
So easy to use even a stiff can install and write letters with it.
Everyone knows that the .gov types never read anything which actual citizens send them. Unless it's a memmo from one of corporate america's finace departments with a check in it, it's tossed in the trash.
I guess the reporter must have been dumpster diving again.
Fish! LipHo
http://www.freetoinnovate.com/
Wonder where they find individuals to sign those letters for them? The article mentions a number of people who recieved replies to the letters they had sent and then apologized for the initial letter and some even stated they were mislead. I'll bet alot of them signed on to MS's freedom to Innovate campaign and then were placed on the mailing lists.
Perhaps we could /. is snail-mail box with letters paraising him in his dilligence in his anit-trust litigation and urge him to not give up the fight.
His name is Mark Shurtleff
Administration Office:
Utah State Attorney General
Administration Office
160 East 300 South,6th Fl.
Heber Wells Building,
Salt Lake City, UT 84114
If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
Various news sources are reporting that a lone ethic was found roaming around the Microsoft campus in Redmond early this morning. A senior Microsoft official has been quoted as saying "The ethic was quickly located by our campus death squads and was terminated on sight. I'm pleased to report that once again Microsoft is operating completely normally and without any ethics. All our staff have been alerted to the problem of stray ethics and will be given bonuses for supplying information to Microsoft's Department for Ethical Suppression and Moral Irradication that leads to the capture and termination of a free-roaming ethic". At this time it's unknown exactly which ethic was found on the campus, however, rumours abound that it was an 'integrity' ethic, possibly explaining the rapidity with which it was removed from existence.
;)
Ok, so I made that one up
(This story taken from LinuxDude.co.uk)
Chris "Ng" Jones
cmsj@tenshu.net
www.tenshu.net
What are the odds that the guy who faked the Linuxtoday "talkbacks" was in the payroll of M$? Very high, it seems to me.
Magnus.I think Microsoft is doing wrong and needs to be severly punished. Please make them pay an exorbitant fine, split them up into at least 16 different companies, open their source, and string Ballmer up by his cajones.
Sincerely,
Bill Gates
no, they are sending them from The Final Destination... that's the problem ;)
...to pull another one of these fake grasroots support stunts when you've been found out before?
Just another one for the ``Help Me! I still have four bullets and I'm all out of feet'' folder.
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
mrBlond wrote:Hmmm. Maybe just stop voting entirely. Then you won't just be replacing Big Business with the Big Business of Government
Government: Go around....
"It's not surprising that companies and organizations that support Microsoft are mobilizing to counter that lobby."
Shouldn't the word "support" come after the word "Microsoft"?
"We here at Slashdot would like to take the time to say that strong competition and innovation have been the twin hallmarks of the technology industry, and if the future is going to be as successful as the recent past, the technology sector must remain free from excess regulation."
Ha, I can tell no one from Slashdot wrote that, it doesn't contain a single typo!
I don't like that Microsoft has more money than the Sierra Club and can therefore afford to call people and personally convince them to sign the letters, but I don't believe that this is unethical. It's simply one of the prices we pay for freedom of speech - everybody has freedom of speech, and those who have more money can speak louder.
Sigh. And I have to say that I am disappointed by the Slashdot article here - the person who wrote it should have read the original article, so that the slashdot article could have been a little more factual. I am very fond of slashdot, and it worries me when I see stories that really belong in the Slashdot Enquirer.
_MelloN_
No...the 747 was built to a spec.
The Spruce Goose was like trying to run Windows 95 on 4 MB of RAM.
Aviation bloatware...Shuttle, B-36, FB-111 when it was a fighter for the Navy and a Bomber for the USAF, the Nazi Germany Giant Gilder/Bomber/Transport. Those are examples of Aviation bloatware...but the Shutte is awesome, but it was an attempt to do everything in one vehicle. Like Homer Simpson's car for his brother's company.
"All my life, I have searched for a car that feels a certain way. Powerful like a gorilla, yet soft and yielding like a Nerf ball. Now, at last, I have found it."
So Microsoft is inept in their management of public opion. Oracle, AOL, Novell and the states attoneys general have proven adept at suckering people into supporting their own anticompetitive missions. Which suckers whould those be ? The slashdot Anti-microsoft bashers.
Microsoft is HARD to compete against. Oracle, AOL and Novell want to operate in less competitive markets. So they do what every company which wants to restrict consumer choice and operate a monopoly does: They pay off public officials to kneecap the competition.
Slashdot readers don't get it: Removing a strong competitor from the field makes the market less competitive, not more competitive. Those who favor legal remedy have been suckered by propaganda into accepting an obvious falsehood.
As for Attorneys General, that scam has already played out with the tabacco suits. They sign up their buddies and polital allies as legal counsel under contingency fees of about 25% of the settlement. In the tabacco cases, that worked out to 10's to 100's of MILLIONS of $ PER LAWYER. For those who don't know how this works: you hand out about a billion dollars total to about a dozen guys in you state, who you choose, and you are owed quite a lot of favors.
Besides the facts or legitimacy of these letters, video tapes ect, MSFT knows how to create public opinion. Sometimes they get caught churing out simulacra but they sure know how to create an aura about themselves. It's a company of the future if you ask me.
Under Utah state law, any deliberately falsified document or instrument provided to a government official constitutes a criminal act.
if i did this, i sure as hell would be guilty of fraud. Why does Microsoft allowed to get away with this? Wait, don't answer, because I know why, but shit, it does piss me off.
Got Freedom?
Thinking?
Welcome to The Internet: Slashdot Patents Microsoft News Hardware. It's pretty useful, actually. If the future is going to be as successful as the recent past, the technology sector must remain free from excess regulation. Strong competition and innovation have been the twin hallmarks of the technology industry.
I am sure they used some stupid program like Eliza to do this. What we should really be doing is sending in more letters supporting M$ with more invalid return addresses from more dead people. And let's make the letters damn convincing, with lines like, "In case you didn't relized from the obituaries, this is a dead person writing to you."
This would invalidate some of those real MS support letters from the morons who used Word to print their return labels and can't get the printout to align just right.
But this is all just a rant, and the enforcement officials should not hold me responsible if the above action does take place. It would be too obvious to blame me for M$ mistakes.
Causing Chaos Everywhere,
Nik J.
The strange world of a loner, in a populous city, drowning in society
Now, I'll admit to having been there (as a contractor) when Boeing was in the middle of all this... but I also went and asked the pilots and F/A's and such, and the verdict was unanimous. "Love it." Yes, the original 747 was a designer's nightmare, hand-fitted, and no two of them were exactly the same... but at least one of the Big Companies in the Puget Sound has done some real innovation in the last ten years... </catty remark>
The worst part - and not so laughable - I'd bet better than even money that in the end the US government will let them get away with everything... but that's just me being cynical, right?
not just you being cynical... OJ got away with murder didn't he? Clinton got away with perjury and obstruction of justice. Gore got away with accepting bribery-like campaign contributions from a foreign communist country.
However in what seems a breath of fresh air, Dubya's daughters *did* get caught for underage drinking and were not able to weasel out of punishment for that.
I have friends who have written congressmen on various injustices being done to them by the government (especially if you're in the Army and getting screwed), and they have always been righted quite quickly.
You're absolutely right. It has happened many times, and is likely to continue until microsoft is fatally crippled.
It is vitally important to both microsoft and hardware manufacturers that ms's soon to be released win95(XP) hardware downgrade succeed.
An increase in sales of new desktop / notebook computers and servers is expected to result, since the 'XP' downgrade will decrease the usefulness of a large percentage of existing equipment.
Don't credit Microsoft for it, i came up with that idea first.
Ahh, social contract theory, one of my favorite subjects.
That page makes for a good read. Thanks for the link. I shall better my arguments through its study. I found way too much familiarity with the positions it seeks to debunk.
As far as traveling outside the country, as the page you link states: "You don't have to catch a disease to be able to understand it, fight it, or vaccinate against it. " So whether or not I've been outside the country is irrelevant.
For the record, I've been accross the pond, to the Great White North, and down to the caribbean, but that's it.
Ha! Blue screen of death. Literally!
Disconnect your television. Do your own research. Draw your own conclusions. They're probably lying. Don't be a sheep.
> I mean we all know you'd have ot be brain dead to use windows
> anyway - this just takes it a stpe further.
Hey, this is just mean. Maybe you should say, "...brain dead to use Windows by choice" instead, since I'm required to use Windows by my employer, and I manage to keep some brain cells alive with regular Linux injections at home.
Virg
Dang! When did MicroSoft hire a Daley?
The Independent: Reverend Spooner Arrested in Friar Tuck Incident - ISIHAC, Historical Headlines
Face it, Microsoft has millions of supporters, buy a tiny, vocal group of anti-Microsoft crazies (like Guy Kawasaki).
Yes there is one, it's in the "astroturf" link - just move your cursor over it and you can read it. :)
I'm not suggesting that you click on it for verification purposes...
Surely this isn't what was meant in the famous X windows "virus alert" by the line "X Windows. You'll envy the dead."...
Bart: Lis! Lis, come here, I found him! I found Edgar Neubauer.
[points at a tombstone: "Edgar Neubauer: Beloved husband and old
grouch (1831-1909)"]
Oh my God...the dead have risen and they're voting Republican.
Lisa: [gasp] No, Bart, don't you see? Dead people can't vote.
[pulls out list, looks at another tombstone]
Prudence Goodwyfe, died 1641. She voted for Bob too. [gasps] So
did Buddy Holly, Richie Valens, and the Big Bopper.
[walking] Even the pet cemetery voted for Bob, look! Mr. and
Mrs. Bananas, Humphrey Boa-Gart...oh, my poor dead kitty, please
not you too...
[checks list, sees "Snowball I"]
[angry] All right, Bob, now it's personal!
The dead have risen and they're voting Bill!!!
(Thanks Bart)
668: Neighbour of the Beast
The ironic thing is that if Microsoft didn't spend all of it's time kicking it's customers in the teeth then there probably would be an actual groundswell of public outcry against the DOJ and the states that are suing. Microsoft's customers like the integration and the standardization that Windows and Office have fostered, and Microsoft has made software more affordable. It used to be pretty darn expensive to outfit your PC with all of the software you needed to run a business. MS Office is way too expensive, but it is less expensive than WordPerfect and Lotus 1-2-3 used to be.
However, Microsoft, has gotten greedy, and has basically resorted to extorting money from their users. Windows XP has a whole raft of anti-consumer "features," Microsoft's BSA goons are out in force, and Microsoft's licensing tactics get more and more predatory every year. Because of their actions nearly everyone in the computer industry is hoping that Microsoft gets taken down a peg or two. Even Microsoft's biggest customers are hoping that the DOJ chews them up and spits them out.
Perhaps someday Microsoft will learn something about customer service. Until then, don't expect any actual public support for their actions.
How long before MicroSoft modifies one of the currently raging virus to automatically send an e-mail to the various Justice Department, governers, senators, etc.. Could this be why they have left so many holes in outlook?
"I send this to you for your support Microsoft. All your e-mail belong to us."
Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
I never find the argument that some entity is too smart to do something stupid very convincing. That reminds me of when people claim that some "psychic" must be real because if he were a fake, his tricks would work all the time. Since the tricks only work some of the time, he must be the real thing!
Microsoft isn't infallible. And although it's unlikely that Balmer explicately told them to send out letters with dead people's signatures, he probably implicately told them to do whatever it takes. It's hard to believe that anything Microsoft does in relation to this case would be done without executive management's approval or consent.
Don't forget, although this case is extreme, it isn't completely unheard of considering other things (faked demos in court, misleading videotape in court, the other astroturf campaign, Gates claiming they don't track marketshare, etc) they've done lately.
Insert simplistic political, ideological, or personal proselytization here.
To the tune BTO's 'You Ain't Seen Nothing Yet':
You ain't seen Evil yet,
Baby, you just seen Evil yet.
...farmers do indeed...
...from the government. While it's true that farmers need these benefits more than the general populace, the governmental assistance is enviable. For example, imagine I'm a small computer maker. Can you imagine the government paying CompUSA not to sell more than X computers in my area, so that there's enough demand for my machines so I don't go out of business? This is an overextension of the idea, but you get the point. And, the original poster's point is valid, in that corporations that can get favorable legislation passed reap huge rewards for it. If you don't like using farmers as an example, use the Baby Bells instead.
>...get "enormous benefits" compared to regular people
Virg
Is it wrong? Probably.
... an inability to differentiate right and wrong even in some of the more obvious, less grey areas, of which this is one. Impersonating individual people (including dead people) in an effort to decieve and undermine the very fundamental, personal feedback upon which our democracy relies in no small part and thereby distorting the entire governance process ... let me give you a hint: YES, IT IS WRONG. You are robbing people of their voice, stealing their identity and speaking out in their name without their knowledge and quite possibly against their wishes. Certainly the dead have no business lobbying legislators, even if they are known to vote for party machine candidates in Chicago elections from time to time (Mayor Daley being the quintessential example). This goes well beyond lobbying one's own point of view and agenda and is, at the very least, fraudulant.
Probably? I think this sort of ethical blindspot is something Microsoft shares with most serious criminals, and differentiates them from most decent people
This is wrong, pure and simple. There is no "grey" area here, no uncertainty, no "maybe" about it. And if this uncertainty is indicative of the ethical maturity of Microsoft and those who apologize and shill for them, and I think it probably is based upon their actions to date (not to mention some of the absurd forms the defense of those actions has taken), then I can only say that the worst behaviors attributed to Microsoft and its lackeys are emminently believable.
To underscore one aspect of why this is wrong in as dramatic a notion as possible, let me ask: how many of those impersonated are actually Macintosh users. GNU/Linux or FreeBSD users? None? Perhaps, but if they have impersonated thousands, then likely it is a number greater than zero, in which case Microsoft (or their "we must maintain deniability" outsourced PR subcontractor) is not only decietful in their representation of an astroturfed campaign, but are actually stealing people's voices to "campaign" for the opposite of what they want. And before someone starts bemoaning Americans' apathy and using that as an excuse, the right to say nothing is just as protected as the right to speak out, and saying nothing does not entitle someone else to put words in your mouth, certainly not in a political context, any more than not voting entitles someone else to cast your vote in addition to their own.
If what Microsoft and their paid shills did isn't defined as criminal under current law, it damn well should be.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
Damnit, had I known M$ was coming out with letter writer v1, I would have held out in college 'cause they're sure to soon come out w/ essay writer, or essay forger.
That sure would have come in handy.
blah blah blah, I'm right, and all evidence proving I'm wrong is insufficient and false.
...to drum up support. (Except for the attempt to make the letters look unrelated - that's sleazy and pathetic. I wonder if other pacs do that.) The EFF does about the same thing: makes it easy for supporters to send prefab letters.
So here we have it -- final proof that Microsoft is innovating. This is their new astroturfing/letter writing software, which can even scan obituaries to find "real" names to use, and rearrange sentences in interesting ways so that it doesn't seem like a machine is doing the writing. Tell me that's not innovative.
Now just watch as they use this argument in one of their law suits.
-Puk
They have been very helpful to me. The personal references on my resume are:
John Lennon
J.P. Morgan
Sonny Bono
Help end the use of Sigs. Tomorrow
They had people sign pre-done form letters and send them in. Big deal. EVERYONE does this, ALL lobby groups do this.
/.? Well, let's see. Everytime we need to write a congressman someone comes up with an automailer or sends out a form email. What's the difference? Oh yeah, this is Microsoft and I'm on Slashdot.
How hypocritical is
State officials said they won't be swayed by the effort, and Hatch responded with his own mailings to the senders, explaining his position.
Some recipients wrote back by hand, apologizing for passing along the Microsoft-inspired letters. "I sure was misled," one wrote.
But to really show up what was going on here, in case you missed it earlier, consider this:
Some residents who fielded ATL's calls believed the states themselves were soliciting their views, according to the attorneys general of Minnesota, Illinois and Utah.
When a caller started asking Minnesotan Nancy Brown questions about Microsoft, she thought she was going to get help figuring out what was wrong with her computer.
Instead, the caller wanted to know whether she agreed that federal and state antitrust prosecutors had better things to do than attack the leader of the high-tech economy.
"They were trying to get me to say the government had no business interfering with Microsoft," Brown said. "I said I didn't agree with that."
Recap! This organization, under pay from MS, called up people in at least three states under false pretenses and harrassed them with this kind of bull. They then lied about mailing their victims forms to rubberstamp and mail back, and pretended all the letters were spontanious. False addresses and dead people make it look like they lied about all of it, and cast doubt on the authenticity of any of the letters. Shoddy work, poorly executed and compounded with dishonesty.
Nothing new here, par for the MS course.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
This should be a signal to everyone who does support the case against MS. If MS (or perhaps their supporters in this case) feel that at least the perception of what public opinion is is so important, the anti-MS people should take that as a hint to write your congressmen and other government officials to let them know how you feel!
If you had bothered reading the link, you would know a few things.
1) It is not a single person within Microsoft "mis-interpreting" their orders. It is several PR companies, doing exactly the same thing, along with Microsoft.
2) After the PR company calls the target, and confirms they are supportive of Microsoft, The letterheads, return addresses, and envelopes arrive at the house pre-printed and ready to go, complete with paragraphs moved around and paper colr/font changes to make them appear to be from "individuals".
3) There's a lot of money flowing. How can be be from a Linux company?
The "facts" were there, had you bothered to go read a little. But as this story shows, Microsoft supporters have a few issues when it comes to writing. It's not too much of a stretch to imagine they have issues following links and reading the articles as well.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
> I honestly am hard pressed to believe the people at
> the top could be 'this' stupid.
I'm not so sure it's stupidity so much as an astonishing amount of hubris. For example, shortly after Judge Jackson's remedy was thrown out, Mr. Gates himself held a news conference in which he explicitly said that the event was proof that Microsoft did not illegally tie its browser to it OS. Since several courts since then have not overturned the conviction (only the punishment), this statement was either an horrific mistake on his part, or a bald-faced lie. In either case, with this episode (and the falsified benchmark video) in mind, it does not strike me as out of character for the top brass at Microsoft to try something like this.
Virg
The same type of reasoning used in EULAs is what allows Linux and other open-source software to disclaim liability for bugs and errors. If people were legally liable for the code they contribute to Linux, I rather suspect the whole project would have been stillborn.
Of course, you stated that "you should be held responsable[sic] for the quality if you are charging money for it". I can understand that, but how far would it go?
Computers are used in all kinds of medical equipment, but they are designed, hardware and software, from the ground up, as a whole. The manufacturers control (because they must) everything from the power plug on. And they go through endless tests. And because of all this, they are expensive and minimally customizable.
Applying similar standards to word processors would be folly; if your life depends on a word processor operating perfectly, you need to re-evaluate some of your decisions. Even looser standards would be a problem, though.
With increased liability, software quality would improve some. But open-source software, by its very nature, couldn't be warranted. And thus a lot of companies could get in trouble with shareholders and partners if they didn't use guaranteed software...
I agree that the current state of commercial software is deplorable, but a lot of careful thought is needed to figure out the best way to fix it.
PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
Sure, I hate microsoft as much as the next competent user of a computer, but there REALLY are a lot of people who actually love microsoft.
Even if only half of the people who do use windows like it, the other half surely couldn't ALL be able to run linux/bsd/whatever/who cares anyhow, so they're stuck.
We're forgetting that the majority of people don't understand WHY windows is a third rate OS. There are people who post on this site that don't understand this.
I don't think that any fraud has been committed. Most people are morons, only a moron would be a part of one of these mail-a-politician campaigns, so I'm expecting that they'd send these letters themselves.
How else would you expect M$ to stay in business? It's not one maroon supporting them. It's a nation full of them.
Ok, I listened to both sides and I have heard the extremists, so the correct opinion is halfway in between. One side says Microsoft is the guardian angel of innovation and the other says Microsoft is the demon that enslaves the people.
In the end, anyone who has to get anywhere through falsifying documents or unethical political tactics is not worth supporting. Maybe Linux supporters have done these things too, but I do not care because I know that the operating system stands on its own merits. Ever since Day 1 Microsoft has had to bully its way through the market in order to keep competitive. Let's count the ways:
- They had to purchase DOS
- Bill Gates remarked something about TELLING the consumer what they wanted rather than scoping for interest first
- THE $@(#* PAPERCLIP that you have to tell to go away so many times that some people just give up
- Commingling (love that word)
- Obvious and unobvious tactics to try to make people and government believe that they are really divine
- The mouse shadows and animated menus that no one cares about, while ignoring bugs, holes, and problems
Eventually, either we will reach the End Times and capitalism will have all of the people enslaved, or there will be some big turning point event and MS will crumble. So, people of the world unite and stuff. Won't happen unless Linux and other OS users remember that MS-smokers could potentially be their allies, but we have to win them rather than insult them. MS insulted me by thinking it could determine what I want without asking me, I don't want the Linux community to be like that.
"But Teacher, I used Microsoft grammar checker on my report on the Ten Commandments and so I know it is right":
1. Thou shalt serve no Gods besides Bill Gates
2. Thou shalt not make for thyself the Tux idol
3. Thou shalt not take the name of Microsoft, they Operating System, in vain
4. Remember the next release date, and keep it Holy
5. Honor your operating system's pay-per-call tech support
6. Thou shalt not ctrl-alt-delete MSIE
7. Thou shalt not install Linux
8. Thou shalt not pirate
9. Thou shalt support Microsoft favorably (even if what you say is a lie)
10. Thou shalt not covet thy personal files because they will be lost when thou must reformat and they were not very important anyway
No, it's real. It may not be visible now, but this user has been changing his sig to remove the evidence. He HAS been placing goatsex links in his sig, where the link-checker doesn't yet function.
See this bug and several others on sourceforge... they all appear to be closed, but apparently the problem still exists.
I have worked for several grassroots political organizations. I have even been flown to Washington as an official agent of one, where I personally lobbied my two home-state senators.
Most grassroots political lobbying organizations in the US work this way. Almost every one of them pre-prints letters or post cards, asks people to sign them in one way or another, then ensures that they get delivered to the needed people.
Most politicians are very familiar with the form of lobbying: the article even hints at it. The only thing that's somewhat unique about this is the attempt to disguise the fact that the letters were only endorsed by the citizens. Don't let the misleading headline convince you that this isn't one of the most popular forms of political expression in the US.
The article mentions handwritten letters, faxes, phone calls, etc. It is also commonplace for organizations to provide a letter and ask people to hand-copy it before sending it. What the article says is that Microsoft's put a new twist on an old lobbying trick, but hasn't otherwise run a very effective grassroots campaign.
How much longer are people going to sit back and watch this corporation continually partake in these increadibly outrageous activities. If for a moment we suspend the talks about Linux vs MS Windows and focus on business practicies of MS alone, MS has got to be one of the most dirtiest I have ever heard of and its shocking that still they get away with doing these actions every time. I hope they finnally get the punishment they deserve.
"Strong competition" and "innovation" have not been the twin hallmarks of the software industry in the recent past. How could you even suggest such a thing.
No, "marketing muscle" and "exclusionary licensing practices" have been the twin hallmarks of the software industry in the recent past. And perhaps we should throw in "embrace, extend, extinguish".
The free market has failed where software is concerned. A mostly-free market with just enough regulation to prevent unfair competition from monopolies is an absolute requirement for a healthy software industry.
Restrict IE? /.ers couldn't post.
:-)
br>
Then at least 75% of
and you think this would be a bad thing?
Ok, the article spells out what they (politics) look for and pay attention to, and what holds lesser value in lobbying. Guess that means it'd be helpful for someone to post the mailing addresses of those who to send our handwritten and unique letters in opposition to Microsoft to.... Hmmm, think it will have more impact being how in the Linux, GNU, GPL world there ain't no designated leader?
:)
OK, anyone got the addresses?
In light of Microsoft's Daley-esque faking of support from the dead, I propose adding
the following term to the lexicon:
Carcasstroturfing: The practice of using dead people in fake grass-roots campaigns in order
to sway the opinions of the living.
I've been a Microsoft customer for years now. I'm writing this on my Windows 2000 Pro system, using IE 5.5, and I may fire Office 2000 up to spellcheck this. I use these products on purpose, not because they came with my computer.
Goodbye Karma.
Now to redeem myself. Microsoft and the companies it pays to lobby our lawmakers have gotten out of hand. I'll wait while everybody says "Duh" right now. Here's what we should do about the "grassroots efforts" they are trying to fabricate: start our own.
I don't mean this in a pro-Linux sense, and especially not in a pro-regulation sense. What I propose is that American /.-ers start writing to the office of the Governor, local Congressman, Senator, and/or State Attorney General's office expressing concern over Microsofts lobbying behavior. Point to the LA Times article, point out that this was tried 3 years ago when MS was going to pay for "sponaneous letters of support" at the outset of the trial, and most of all be polite and concise about it. Mention being concerned about their stranglehold on the tech industry or behavior towards other companies or blatant disregard for the court rulings against them, but not as the main focus of your letter.
We have a huge use community here. Let's use it to correct a lie.
Andy Hunter
San Jose, CA
PS: This is the only time you'll see my real name anywhere online. I hope that says something here.
PPS: In my defense, I'm not submitting this in Mozilla because there was a submit bug in the nightly build from last night ;-)
I know us Slashdot left-wing geaks like to bash Microsoft and their countless minions, but they aren't the real problem.
The real problem is that the market isn't regulated enough to provide real quality of software, that the media is owned by corporates and is therefore gives minimal coverage to corporate abuses, that the government alowers the media to be owned by just 6 entities, that the governing parties blantently take 'donations'/bribes and the public barely cares nor understands, that the public is so self-absorbed that they stand by idle while their 'democracy' becomes a corporate state, that the public votes for the same idiots over and over again, that people who work in companies routinely put all moralistic duties aside and do wrong things, that people both work in evil P.R. company propaganda machines and turn a blind eye to their existance, that people blindly follow brands like "Wal Mart" and "Coca Cola" because the TV advert told them so, that people are so ignorant that they couldn't find their own city on an unmarked world map, and so on and so on....
You may be keen to blame Microsoft, but they're just a small cog; it's the society that produed it which is truly to blame.
against Microsoft on behalf of the families of the deceased, for damages caused by missapropriation of the identities of their loved ones.
We here at Slashdot would like to take the time to say that strong competition and innovation have been the twin hallmarks of the technology industry, and if the future is going to be as successful as the recent past, the technology sector must remain free from excess regulation.
I agree. To put it another way, strong competition and innovation have been the twin hallmarks of the technology industry, and if the future is going to be as successful as the recent past, the technology sector must remain free from excess regulation.
Microsoft is much better than Cats. I'm going to see it again and again.
J. Doe (deceased)
I think my headline kicked butt over the winning submission, though...
Microsoft Lobbies With Dead People
people post without reading the entire article? If they did, they would know they didn't "fake" any signatures, nor did they mail the letters themselves.
Don't ya know, sueing Slashdot would be a complete and utter P.R. distaster of titanic proportions.
You know, it's times like this I wish for an "unpost" button.
You're right, I read the articles earlier and got my facts mixed up. When I went back to the article I trusted the headline (apparently forgetting that headlines are meant to grab your attention and are not always accurate as stated). I'd like to thank you and Software for pointing that out and I'd also like to apologize to chrome koran for indirectly accusing him of hypocrisy while being guilty of it myself.
It makes a good point, and everyone in the US that reads Slashdot should do it!
ttyl
Farrell
CAN-CON 2019 - Ottawa's only book oriented Science Fiction Convention! October 18-20, Sheraton Hotel, Ottawa, Canada h
I've alread listed some stuff in my user info. Reply AC to this thread if you want to talk about it w/o affecting your karma. I prefer to not leave an email in /. to cut down on spam at work.
Because Microsoft is a monopoly, the assumption is that the free market forces that affect most everybody else have been rendered inoperative. Being a monopoly is not wrong in itself, but every action by or for a monopoly demands extreme scrutiny. If a single individual from a linux group does it, hell, even if the entire linux group does it, it's no big deal. Plenty of others, plenty of competition. The facts are that Microsoft is a monopoly and any plausible connection to Microsoft or any of its employs is sufficient to discredit any "grass-roots" campaign.
The correct opinion is not 'halfway in between'. The correct opinion is, 'gee, Microsoft attempts to turn off the antitrust case with a massive lobbying effort lying to people and using the names of dead people'. You know, when government officials get caught carrying on like that we just about run them out of town on a rail. Why are we supposed to extend extra consideration to Microsoft? They deserve to get gutted for this. Bluntly, they are fucking with our government.
Maybe I misunderstood the article, but I thought it said that Microsoft prewrote the letters and sent them to people to sign. Now, I couldn't tell from the article, but were any of these letters exactly the same? All I know is several times I've been asked to protest things like the DMCA and UCITA, and have even been given a prewritten letter to sign and send in. This sounds like exactly like what Microsoft is doing in at least a few states. Granted, it's not good for them to be making the letters appear to be written by the individuals who are signing them...but what is really going on here?
Aciel
aciel@speakeasy.net
Darkchapter.net Free Speech Message Board
You'd be able to sue Linux-distribution companies like Redhat because they CHARGE for their distributions, implying some form of quality control and responsibility on their part. The totally free distributions that are available at no charge do not imply any form of quality control, so they can disqualify themselves from responsibility. If I pay good money for something that is advertised as functional, why SHOULDNT I be able to claim damages if it fails to perform its advertised function?
Aviation bloatware...Shuttle,
BS. I don't remember the URL to the article, but nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, goes into the shuttle avionics software without a reason (problem report), spec, design, inspection, review, and rigorous testing. The shuttle software group is CMM level 5.
Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
Bullshit signature of death??
I would suggest a read of today's wall st journal (front page) wrt the economies of software. When you have an item that has virtually no marginal cost of manufacture, a lot of things change.
Sex is heriditary, if your parents didn't have it chances are good you won't either.
If I state
Bill Gates mentioned Linux is better than Windows, and Microsoft's webmaster told me they've upgraded all their servers to Linux and *BSD
or
George W. Bush called me today and mentioned his political idol is Adolph Hitler
and claim they're actually true, watch me getting get locked up.
But if I say:
I heard that Bill Gates mentioned Linux is better than Windows, and that Microsoft's Webmaster upgraded all their servers to Linux and *BSD.
or
Someone that looks & sounds exactly like GW knocked on my door, and told me his idol is Adolph Hitler.
Watch how I will not get locked up. These are basic issues they cover when you discuss libel, in Law 101.
There is no law that says, "If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then its a duck"... The law says that if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then its an animal that looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, but not neccessarily a duck...
And if you said, you merely "heard that", somebody said/did something, it is not libel, because you did not directly claim he did something. Somebody else did.
PR Guy #1: How should we get our "grassroots" campaing going?
PR Guy #2: I see dead people...
Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
"Microsoft referred questions about the new campaign to the company running it, Americans for Technology Leadership (ATL),"
ATL? Is this Microsoft's little joke?
later he was defeated by the social-democratic Bertrand Delanoe. I guess the French zombies got bored of unemployment and moved to Utah
This is what happens when you use Microsoft Encarta.
When a caller started asking Minnesotan Nancy Brown questions about Microsoft, she thought she was going to get help figuring out what was wrong with her computer.
Am I the only one who had to restrain myself from laughing hysterically when I read this?
You know, if they spent even a tenth of the money they use for advertising, PR, astroturfing, etc. on writing better code and creating a better tech support infrastructure, they might not HAVE to spend so much on advertising, PR, astroturfing, etc.
But then again, I know nothing about business.
Popular Culture? Popular Culture wants a damn site that can handle some traffic. -- ska187
I can't stop laughing! First, that would make Microsoft proactive with support, and second - what are the chances that she was having problems with her computer when she was called by the lobby? ...OK, I guess the chances are pretty high, but still.
Ctimes2
My cube. My friend. My solace. My prison.
Hold on a minute. Freedom in capitalism is important to the way the US economy is set up. Freedom means freedom to be ethical and freedom to be unethical. It's already been stated that what they did was not a crime, plus it's obvious it didn't work. Maybe it is making things worse for Microsoft. Where in there do you see that they are actually getting away with it? If they were, we wouldn't be talking about how bad MS is, we would be putting MS on our computers.
They did what any self-respecting business would do when faced with something that could be potentially harmful. They tried to counter it. The methods they used were not ethical, and so the result is their efforts become flamebait on slashdot.
Don't get me wrong, I'm as anti-Microsoft as they come, but I would prefer using solid arguments against them rather than MS YOO SUCK DIE BILL GATES or shouting taunts and insults over tactics that are unethical, but common and to be expected.
Speaking of the not-so-recent past, remember that when Microsoft and Compaq stole the show from IBM, it was only after big blue had been taken down a couple notches by some pretty aggressive pursuit of anti-trust regulations.
By today's standards, this was somewhat "excessive", but if not for that where would Mr. Gate's "freedom to innovate" come from?
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
You just have to laugh out loud when you read something like this. A company that has so much scrutiny focused on it for underhanded tactics - is using some of the most fraudulent tactics known to man.
Oh, I agree, it's funny as all hell. But the lobbying groups are doing it.
A parallel pretty close to home for both of us is the Walkerton water crisis.
The mayor didn't supervise the water supply very well and has even helped to keep PR nightmares (like people getting sick from the water) quiet.
Now, his minions are taking the fall, but you'd think that it would have killed his credibility. No way! The idiot residents of Walkerton re-elected him.
It's as dumb as Detroiters voting for Coleman Young over and over and over... despite his noble views, he was clearly destructive to the city.
Just like these mayors, Microsoft will manage to skirt the PR nightmare. Just you watch.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
[spooky music - we see that kid from AI and a certain ex-husband of Demi Moore - slowly zoom in]
...
Bruce Willis: [hushed tones] What do you see when you look in Microsoft's PR department?
[pause, music builds]
Hailey: [plaintive voice] I see dead people
[music crescendo, hush]
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
My comment was to indicate that I'd read the comments in your user info. Do you have a crash account (Yahoo or Hotmail or such)?
Virg
That's fraud, and possibly criminal impersonation. This isn't like faking letters to the editor of the Washington Post in the name of fictitious microsquish lusers, this is identity theft; and since the letters went to a law enforcement official, there might very well be a charge of obstruction of justice here.
I hope that the judge who decides their sentence in the anti-trust case takes their recidivism into account.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
...and another reason why it always fails regression testing.
Microsoft should be prosecuted for this, in addition to the antitrust lawsuits already going on. We should not let these bastards get away with fraud to misrepresent the will of the people.
Basicaly, forgery is a crime. Like if any of those signatures on those letters, for example, the two letters that came from people long since dead?
Not to mention many addresses was non existant, but if they did contact many people, I'm sure there will be many more cases of forgery at work here.
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive
can really burn your knees. Just ask Bill.
State laws on forgery differ. Minnesota and Utah have weak ones, but see Maine.
Oh my lord. I think that was the first time I've ever laughed out loud at a Slashdot story. Go michael!
I'd like to start out by saying that I have no affiliation with Microsoft. Furthermore, I really have no stong opinion on the outcome of the Antitrust case. I am just trying to offer a different viewpoint on this particularly biased message board.
Microsoft may have a monopoly in the software business, particullarly with their OSes and Office products. However, I think that they have really created a large amount of competition in the hardware industry. One product, for instance, the much dreaded Winmodem, would not even be possible without MS. Now, look at how many small, independent hardware manufacturers have Winmodem products. It seems like every start-up hardware business has some sort of cheap Winmodem in their product line.
If MS never existed, would we all be writing to Slashdot on our Sun or Apple computers? If it wasn't for MS, would Linus have been motivated to create Linux, a free alternative? Would there still be a strong open-source movement?
I think MS created a lot of competition by pissing a lot of people off. The problem was, and still is, that MS already had a monopoly before the competition had time to catch up.
Ok, if a lot of pro-MS groups have been writing letters to their congress-people. If the amount of people who read slashdot and go to hit a site from an article can effectively lock down that site due to bandwidth requirements, what can we as a group do if we were to each write a handwritten letter, in either direction of the Microsoft issue, and mail them to our congress-person? Could we effectively kill the US Postal service? Would we be able to bring our government crashing to a halt? Wouldn't it be fun to find out? Who is with me?! Let's all write a letter to Congress!
"Genius may shine aloof and alone, like a star, but goodness is social, and it takes two men and God to make a Brother."
The real moral of the story is Microsoft Zelots exist..
Managment often turns to the Microsoft expert when the Linux expert recomends Linux for a certen job.
The reasonning is that Linux people are zellots and Microsoft people are profesionals.
It's a simple way of weeding out Linux Zelots. The flaw in this is the Microsoft expert is most likely a Zelot and tag anything not 100% pro-Microsoft as being 100% Microsoft bashing.
Microsoft zelots have basicly gotten away with pimping Windows for any application even when Windows is horrably unqualified.
This isn't to say Linux Zelots don't becouse they do.
But it's simply foolish to think the opposate will be any less a zelot.
I don't actually exist.
I can't speak to the linux astroturfing, but I read the articles. They clearly pointed out that the letters were being done by PR firms hired by Microsoft, that it is unprecidented. It was even charicterized as sleazy.
And they know who was doing it, and it wasn't a Linux supporter trying to discredit them. The facts are in, let the grandstanding commence.
Ctimes2
My cube. My friend. My solace. My prison.
Kind of amusing that Citizens Against Government Waste aren't running IIS considering that they get some of M$'s $...
Here is what netcraft has to say...
The site www.cagw.org is running Rapidsite/Apa-1.3.14 (Unix) FrontPage/4.0.4.3 mod_ssl/2.7.1 OpenSSL/0.9.6 on IRIX
In short it seems like something that anyone should view as obviously wrong and detrimential to the democratic process. But I am sure some apologist will disagree.
/Duncan
Duncan Watson
I have to admit when I read "We here at Slashdot would like to take the time to say that strong competition and innovation have been the twin hallmarks of the technology industry, and if the future is going to be as successful as the recent past, the technology sector must remain free from excess regulation." I thought it seemed a strange comment for the story, as a number of other postings pointed out berrating the posters position. However upon checking the story in the L.A. times I realized that this was merely an ammalgamation of two of the phrases that were found to be repeated in the pro-microsoft letters so everyone please realize that this was not an endorsement of microsofts point of view but instead a joking statement.
I stole this Sig
I don't think the A.G.s this letter was directed at find it very funny at all, and Microsoft does need to settle with them.
If this should provoke a *real* grassroots letter writing campaign expressing support for the prosecution (and outrage at Microsoft's tactics) it could prove more than a little counterproductive.
Legality aside, I don't see this as a minor matter. Expression of popular sentiment is close to the only peaceful feedback mechanism we the people still have. Diluting it will not promote domestic tranquility. Especially if the purpose is to make corporations even less accountable to the law.
...signed, Lenin ;)
I just knew it:
:)
:)
Microsoft is in league with the Kingdom of Hell. They are rising up and supporting their Overlord.
I guess that explains everything.
But...
:)
Microsoft *IS* Evil.
You do see that...don't you...?
I know that I do.
No. The body of law having to do with this sort of behavior is called 'fraud' law, and no, you do not have the freedom to committ fraud any more than you have the freedom to rob banks, and no, these tactics are not to be expected.
They are to be arrested.
i don't believe that was his motivation in the first place. his motivation was to get a flavor of unix he liked, not that he had to make a better os than windows. trust me, we would still have linux today if ms didn't exist. maybe it might not have been as good as it is now, maybe it might have been better, who knows? but to say it wouldn't have existed if ms didn't is just plain ignorant.
Got Freedom?
Thinking?
I don't know what you mean by "excess regulation" all I know is that there has to be de jure regulation by Government or there will be de facto regulation by the monopolists (mentioning no names, of course, but being able to raise the dead sure testifies to their power). It is up to us a citizens to see that whatever regulation there is doesn't favour the already overprivledged. That means open and agreed upon standards for the net, operating systems that don't shut out second party providers, and "fair use" standards that don't make criminals of honest hackers. You don't get those things spontaneously in an unregulated marketplace or in one that countenances "the survival of the fattest". Have a nice day :-)
Point: Microsoft's proxies are paid PR flacks, and Microsoft is responsible for their actions, no matter how much Microsoft tries to disclaim it.
In other news, The Register reports that Microsoft is making false accusations of selling counterfeit software in order to shut down dealers who dare buy shrink-wrapped copies of OEM product on the open market. This shows exactly how anti-competitive Microsoft really is -- they believe in the open market, as long as it's not their own product being sold in it! It also shows that Microsoft is a company whose management is made up of habitual liars, but we already knew that.
-E
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
This means that, loosely speaking, in economic terms you can do $25-$75 dollars worth of damage or benefit to Microsoft for each letter you write either in support of or against the trial! Here're some of the people that you can contact:
Eliot Spitzer
New York State Attorney General
The Capitol
Albany, NY 12224-0341
Contact him online here.
Tom Miller
Iowa Attorney General
1305 E. Walnut Street
Des Moines IA 50319
(Couldn't find an email address for him)
US Department of Justice: Antitrust Division
601 D Street, NW
Suite 10107
Washington, DC 20530
The USDOJ also has an address for the Microsoft antitrust trial: Microsoft.atr(at)usdoj.gov (replace "(at)" with "@".)
US President George W. Bush:
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20500
email: president(at)whitehouse.gov
(also vice.present(at)whitehouse.gov)
Don't just sit there and think you'll do it later. Contact them now!!
(If you have strong feelings about the Microsoft antitrust case, please mod this up!)
Very few in the world are truly open minded and empathetic. Many claim to be, but always are full of hate and violence, while they hypocritically force their views on others.
FOR THE CHILDREN!!!
It's Clippy, operating from beyond the grave...
Eloi are stupid, throw morlocks at them!
We here at Slashdot would like to take the time to say that strong competition and innovation have been the twin hallmarks of the technology industry, and if the future is going to be as successful as the recent past, the technology sector must remain free from excess regulation.
I take this to mean that the Slashdot editors are against regulation against Microsoft. While the libertarian 'hands off' approach sounds nice up front, you are missing a huge point. Microsoft would not be where it is today if the govenment had not first granted it copyright protections. Commerical, proprietary software is not a natural market and thus you cannot expect the 'invisible hand of the market' to guide it. The government gave Microsoft its power through copyright, and if they abuse it against the best interests of the public, the government has every right to reduce some of that power to restore balance, which in turn actually strengthens the tech sector of the economy. If Microsoft actually stood for "strong competition and innovation" that would be one thing, but they don't. Instead, they have repeatedly shown themselves to be a bully and have publically declared themselves a bitter enemy of everything open source.
As an aside, I would like to mention an alternative, truly free market approach to virtual goods which would require neither government regulation, nor copyright. The creation of labor markets and methods of contract based production of software and/or media content would be a perfectly fair model both for producers and consumers.
This comment represents solely the opinion of the poster and does not reflect in any fashion the opinion of any past or present employer.
How much you want to bet the letters begin with "I send you this file to ask your advice"?
"I may not have morals, but I have standards."
You know, the movie w/Chris Farley && David Spade?Remember the end? Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha... How could MS do that? Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha..
Procrastinators, Unite Tomorrow!!
So only people who are dead support Microsoft? I wonder what the survivors of the deceased think about that.
My name is Carlos Montoya. You share files of my music. Prepare to die.
It would be so easy for somebody to frame MS... or anybody else in something like this.
Baically... don't take those letters as being good or bad. just ignore them.
Also, MS has many divisions. Maybe some idiot did it without approval.
...I want to promote free software, and free patents... but i want to been MS by having better software... so much better that it doesn't matter what MS does.
I'm not saying it would not have existed. I think Linus' motivations were similar to those of Gates' when he created MS-DOS. They were both trying to create an alternative for the current big OS at the time, something that everyone could "afford". When Gates made MS-DOS he blew open the market for hardware competition as well. The big difference is that Gates had dollar signs in his eyes and obviously Linus did not.
I'll have to remember this when it comes time to register software.
Need a name? use a dead relative's! Need an address? Make one up!
This story is grossly misleading. MS sends out some letters to people, prepaid and prestamped, and ask people to sign them and give them to the mailman. The letters "from the dead" were in fact signed by the families of the deceased. As I said, this story is grossly misleading.
I can't even say that I don't understand why MS is doing this. Their very existence is threatened by the government. There are not many ways for a company to defend itself in a world were wanting to earn money is viewed as some kind of moral shortcoming.
Bjarke Roune
If you live in California and want to assist Microsoft with their grassroots letter writing campign, then you should contact the CA Attorney General via his web page, click here
Anybody got the URLs for Utah and the other states that are suing Microsoft?
"There's been a political campaign waged against Microsoft for a number of years by well-funded, special-interest companies like AOL, Oracle, Sun Microsystems and their trade associations," said Microsoft spokesman Vivek Varma."
This is a classic textbook example of propaganda. It attempts to associate Microsoft's competitors with the "special interest groups" that have been part of the right's Newspeak Dictionary for the last couple of decades.
Coincidentally, here's an excerpt from a book I am currently reading:
From "Deforming Consent: The Public Relations Industry's Secret War on Activists, by John Stauber and Sheldon Rampton, CovertAction Quarterly, Winter 1995/96. I read it reprinted in Censored 1997: The News that Didn't Make the News by Peter Phillips and Project Censored. (So I'm 4 years behind). Much of this info is probably available in Stauber and Rampton's 1995 book, Toxic Sludge is Good for You: Lies, Damn Lies and the Public Relations Industry.
I can not believe that even dead people are supporting M$. Hell is probabely more pleasant
Apparently in some of the letters:
"We the people buying software should be allowed to choose what we th9ink is best, and should not have our choices of software dictated to us from Washington."
I agree. I do not want these dictates coming down from Redmond, Washington either.
My Suburban burns less gasoline than your Prius.
the article points out that most "groundswell" movements are by walkins/fax/handwritten notes.
this begs the question of what is the most effective target for someone to contact in SUPPORT of the DOJ case against Microsoft?
Okay, if you don't have an email to use, I'll just do it here.
...science is not based on, or even really concerned with, truths.
...they must be testable and repeatable...
.sig.
> Sig: Science is a religion.
It's not. I think you're confusing science with Scientism (or scientific humanism). Science isn't a belief system. It's a method of inquiry.
> You place your faith in what you can sense and in the words of those
> you respect, e.g. the scientific comunity.
Placing faith in anything, including scientists, isn't science. It's faith.
> I also place my faith in what I can sense and in those I respect.
Good to know, but that's also not science.
> Things that are literally inexplicable by science have happened
> to those who are close to me.
Nothing is inexplicable to science, because science allows "I don't know" as an answer. Scientists generally don't _like_ that answer, but there's nothing in the scientific method that requires an answer to any question. Since you can't explain the things that happened to those people by any currently known scientific laws, you can say "I can't explain what happened by any currently known scientific laws" and still be within the scientific method.
> That is enough evidence for me to have faith that my religion and
> science are equally legitimate.
Evidence and faith are contradictory. By definition, faith is belief in something, in the absence of proof one way or the other. This statement does, however, point up an issue that I suspect is causing much of your confusion. See below for more on science and religion, and their relationship to each other.
> >
>
> Then what is the point? AFAIK, scientist base their theories on
> facts. Darn! What was that expression...the facts don't lie? Science
> is a bunch of statements that are true or false. If they are true,
> it is sound science. If they are false, it is quackery or
> pseudo-science (if somewhere in between).
The point is specifically that truth is a relative term. Science isn't a bunch of statements that are true or false, it's a method of determining the truth or falsehood of a bunch of statements (scientists call 'em "hypotheses"). Sound science is hypotheses that are consistent with observation. Quackery is the use of scientific jargon to deceive. Pseudoscience is the use of the scientific method backwards; that is, trying to bend facts to suit theories instead of the other way around.
> >
>
> So what is the "Big Bang" theory? How is that either testable or
> repeatable? Sure you can make similar astronomical observations and
> recalucalate the results to formulas, but you can neither really test
> it or repeat it.
You're badly misinterpreting this idea. The "testable/repeatable" idea applies to experiments. The Big Bang (if it ocurred) is an event, not an experiment. One does not need to repeat the Big Bang to investigate the validity of the theory. It works like this:
Theory: The universe started with a big explosion.
Corollary: This explosion (to be consistent with known physics) would have left an EM signature.
Experiment: test for the presence of postulated EM signature.
The test for a background signature is testable (either the EM field will be detected or it won't) and repeatable (anyone with the necessary equipment can repeat the test at any time). If the field is found (it was), this evidence can be used to bolster the case for the Big Bang theory of universal origin, and it weakens the steady-state theory of the universe, because the steady-state theory (again, to be consistent with known physics) would not reasonably contain said field. Now, all of this said, the scientific method also allows that if something new in the field of physics comes up that would reasonably explain the field better than the Big Bang theory, BB would be rejected in favor of that new idea. But, as you see, the theory does not require direct observation or repetition of the event, only of the tests.
> IMHO, the "Big Bang" theory, archeology in general, and any other
> branch of science that deals with events distant in the past are very
> hard to test or repeat. They attempt to explain how things came to
> be. How did the universe really start? Did Neanderthal die out or
> merge with Crowmagnon (sp?) man? What event occured that caused so
> many religions to have a story of a great flood? Where does the
> personality of a person reside?
Again, the events don't need to be tested. The hypotheses are the attempted explanations, and the tests that prove or disprove those hypotheses are what need to be falsifiable/repeatable. To take an extreme example, I'll use your last hypothesis. I propose that the personality of a human resides in the left foot. My test is to find people who have lost their left foot, and see if personlity changes ensue. This is both falsifiable (either I will observe changes or I won't) and repeatable (any researcher can find someone who lost their left foot and repeat the experiment). Therefore my hypothesis is a scientific one. However, as you can well guess, my experiments will show that it's erroneous. As a good scientist, I must therefore say that this theory fails the consistency test (my hypothesis is inconsistent with observation), and therefore I must discard it.
> Most religions also have an explanation of how things came to be.
> Scientists are researchers who try to uncover and support scientific
> "laws". Theologins are researchers of who try to uncover relgious
> "truths".
You must be careful not to confuse these two ideals, especially because scientific laws must stand up to direct experimentation, and religious beliefs do not (and cannot) have such constraints, because they are not quantitative by nature.
> What is the difference? What you believe is a fact. That is what
> seperates religions from each other and religion from science. Hence
> my
Not by any quantitative definition of the word "fact" is a belief a fact. Facts, as defined by the scientific method, are phenomena that are consistent with any experiment that can be run against them. More important, no "fact" is accepted as perfectly immutable in science. Newton's laws of motion spring to mind, which were considered "laws of nature" until that Einstein troublemaker came along. What separates religions from science is the type of questions they try to answer. Too many people try to use religion to answer questions about scientific theory, or the scientific method to try to answer religious or philosophical questions. Each method is ill-suited to address the other's issues, as science deals in quantitative methods, and religion (and by its extension philosophy) deal in nonquantitative methods, which is why I can say at last that science is not a religion.
Virg
It took me all of twenty minutes to write a brief, thoughtful letter and use the handy-dandy merge function on Nisus Writer 5.0 to create a document to be sent to my two U.S. senators and state attorney general.
/.ers -- spend twenty minutes and US$1.05 on postage.
This is the same issue that's going on with copyright law: large corporations with resources far beyond any individual and most sovereign nations on the planet are controlling the political dialogue. Yeah, I hate Microsoft, too, but it goes beyond that.
Don't just sit on your arse bitching to other
Silence implies acceptance.
maybe
I don't know if this is mentioned yet, but I for one will now write my attorney general and tell him that I find that Microsoft has shown that it has no ethics and wish them to seek the harshest possible penalty possible in the antitrust case. I suggest other should do that same (weather they are for ore against Microsoft) and tell their attorney generals how they feel. It's time that the real voices of the world are heard and not some fabricated letters.
BTW, I am from Utah and this really pisses me off ;-(
I am posting anonymously because I work for Microsoft. I am also one person who has made a great many pro-Linux and pro-open source posts here.
The flaw in this is the Microsoft expert is most likely a Zelot and tag anything not 100% pro-Microsoft as being 100% Microsoft bashing.
It is easy to think that Microsoft is made entirely of people like you describe above, but in reality, I have not met too many of them. However, those that do are usually recognized as having great "leadership abilities" at least in my department and so somehow get into leadership positions.
I hold many certifications, the most important of which are the Server+, Network+, NT4 MCSE, and LPIC-1. Recently I got wind that the fact that I liked Linux was alienating certain people who had the ear of the management. Two days later, I was asked to remove the LPIC-1 from my signature, allegedly due to "competitive reasons."
Microsoft zelots have basicly gotten away with pimping Windows for any application even when Windows is horrably unqualified.
For those of you who have not been through the NT4 MCSE track, the NT Server in the Enterprise exam is a perfect example of what you mention. The exam centers around how to use NT4's directory services work for a large organization. The methods are neither pretty nor elegant and were clearly not aprt of the design criteria of the OS. And Microsoft wonders why NT/Netware environments were so popular (I guess they don't anymore. They partly addressed the issue with Windows 2000 Active Directory).
Despite Microsoft's modest gains in server-side market share, the market is not becoming a more homogenized place. Active directory is replacing Netware in some cases, but Linux is replacing many other systems and, in some cases, even creating a market for itself.
I work in a service centric part of Microsoft. Every day, our organization has to handle non-homogenous networks or even help with distributed development in a mixed environment.
Microsoft itself has a zealot mindset but it is not because most people at Microsoft are zealots, but rather that those zealots are better at getting ahead. Microsoft seems to have its own god of which Gates and Ballmer are the head priests, and which rewards cult-like loyalty. Other tech companies may be little different in this regard, from what I have heard, however.
It may be a long time before we know whether this letter-writing is Microsoft's fault or not. But it is the fault of the Microsoft cult, which extends beyond the borders of the main campus and in to too much of the general populace.
In the long run its all about money. Is there any doubt that M$ as a company is blatantly screwing other businesses? I mean, please, just because they can keep the government in the courts for years doesnt mean they are right.. and meanwhile they grow bigger/stronger.
M$ represents consumer computer market because there really is noone else.. and they have made sure of that! And if this company is NOT regulated and this industry NOT cleaned up, we might as well call in Al Capone to help run it. Why isnt anyone else worried that the most powerful man in the world is not the US president, but a computer nerd.. this is scary.
The computer industry is in a huge growth stage, and at a time when they are massive profits to be made. The main problem is there are no litigation and controls to make sure the companies involved are doin the right thing. Please dont be blind by the M$ marketing BS.. if we dont do the right things now, the whole computer industry may suffer in the long run.
I sadly think its too late to stop M$, and through their media manipulation and business practices they will be the new governors of the world. Not the UN, Japan, US or Europe... Not bad for a company that sells something that the world really needs.
"If my car was an MS product, It'd be the size of a house, and I would have to wait 2 minutes for it to warm up every morning."
I didn't mean the software.
I meant the way the system was designed.
Take an airplane, a rocket, reusable systems and disposable systems and wrap it into one system.
It was almost as if all the pre-1970 NASA and USAF programs that Nixon chopped got parts wrapped up into Shuttle.
Only for people with not sense of subtlety.
>Oh my God! The dead have risen, and they're supporting Microsoft!
No surprise here that the undead would support something from the dark side.
shove a cock up your ass tonight
Like most of the Outlook 'viruses', this exploit relied on human gullibility. Microsoft didn't forge anyone's signature - rather they sent the letters and envelopes to people and somehow persuaded them to sign and mail them. The fundamental problem is that many people are so pliable that they are simply putty in the hands of any persuasive talker.
One of the 'victims' said, "I sure was misled." Was he? Did he believe the things in the letter which he signed?
This is similar to the democrats busing in senior citizens to vote. The alleged autonomy of the human being is superceded by the gullibility of individuals.
I really wonder. I mean, there's a company as big as Microsoft, As we all know they have a good marketing team (apparently their marketing is better than the developers, but nevermind), and they don't even manage to do these fake letters right. I mean, this is obviously a planned thing (they even had a statement ready for damage control, after it was discovered), so we can only conclude, that Microsoft wasn't able to come up with enough genuine letters. They could've hired a team of language professors, they could've done som search&replace on other similar letters, they could've built a whole database system compiling genuine support letters. But no, they did it in such an obvious way, even pupils can do better, when copying down their homework from someone else. I think, much scarier than microsofts attempts at world domination is their incompetence.
This shows in marketing, the recent campaigns agains Linux and against softwarepirates did more to discredit Microsofts statements and to drive people away from their products, than to build more customer-relationships. It shows in Microsofts obvious carelessnes with respect to the still ongoing legal battles (their stalling strategies are too obvious, and they're bundling other applications with windows XP, regardless, making it very hard for the courts to be generous about it). And now their incompetence is showing in this campaign, which, now that it became public, is worse for Microsoft, than anything Sun could do to Microsoft with the recent haggling about bundling Java with Windows XP.
Well, i don't know what's disturbing me most: Microsofts success, despite their incompetence, or their incompetence despite their success.
"By the way if anyone here is in advertising or marketing... kill yourself." -- Bill Hicks
See http://hedland.edu.au/~ad-temp/, cue twilight-zone theme.
Unbelievable. (-:
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Please smack yourself in the head with a ballpeen hammer. Winmodems?! You speak of the good hardware of winmodems - like M$ created this great new competitive hardware arena? I gag at the thought.
Winmodems are CRAP! They aren't even modems. They are a ripoff dongle that makes your cpu waste cycles doing what a REAL modem is supposed to do, and restricts the use of said crappy device to WINDOZE. There are no universal drivers for them.
When someone actually pays for one of those things they are literally throwing their money in the toilet, trading cash for nothing.
As for Linus and linux, M$ had nothing to do with his creating it. Hell, at the time of its birth, M$ wasn't the rockhard, full-blown, hard-case monopoly that it now is. M$ had jack-diddle to do with the creation of linux.
In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
Tsk tsk Slashdot. Stop your FUD!
Hell, there Microsoft, why don't they just pre-install the grass root, letters public officials. Just like they have pre-installed icons to sign you up for MSN when you buy your computer, they could put a icon on there that prints out a letter with your name on to mail to your senator.
unncanny the exact same senario occured in the simpsons i saw the episode a couple of weeks ago hahah is bill gates a simpsons fan?
microsoft- where do you wan to go today,
and whats it worth to you to come back alive?
"We here at Slashdot would like to take the time to say that strong competition and innovation have been the twin hallmarks of the technology industry, and if the future is going to be as successful as the recent past, the technology sector must remain free from excess regulation."
Since when has Slashdot become a mouthpiece for political rants? I may or may not agree with this opinion, but please, keep it to yourself.
Not that you'll listen to me. You still don't actually *edit* stories (i.e. check spelling, grammar) and you have ignored calls for editors to be appointed in other countries (you know, like *outside* the US of A). Next thing, you'll be charging people who turn the ads off, and selling out like VA Linux. Oh, hold on...
-- /. ID is lower than Bruce Perens'!
Barry de la Rosa,
public[at]bpdlr.org
My
Beam us up the bomb.