Slashdot Mirror
Inability to Type Not a Disability
gizmo_mathboy writes: "The 9th Circuit Court has ruled that not being able to type does not give one protection/privilege under the Americans with Disabilities Act(ADA). This article on Yahoo! has information concerning the case."
Consider, there are three basic reasons for not being able to type.
1) Physical problem. Like you have no fingers or your wrists won't bend or whatever. In which you presumably *already* qualified as disabled.
2) Mental problem. Like dyslexia or not being intelligent enough to know your alphabet or whatever. Again, presumably you already qualify.
3) Education problem, i.e. you never learned how. You aren't disabled. Go learn to type then reapply for the job.
324006
How would you feel if you suddenly are forced to give up a programmer's comfortable salary?
It would suck, no doubt. But just b/c i WANT to make money doing something i'd like to do, doesn't mean its my RIGHT. My salary depends on how much my company values me, if they suddenly think i have no value (or even all companies think programmers are valueless), well its time to retrain and start doing something else. Obviously i'd like the same salary, but who said it was my right to find another job with a similar salary?
Also, i highly doubt your hands would become amputated from working on a keyboard...
You forgot the ones for those who can't think... VisualBasic!
What, me worry?
I would have responded to this article, but I can't type...
"He was a wise man who invented beer." -- Plato
I find that a lot of time is spent thinking, and designing. Not just typing.
One could also learn one of several programming languages designed by non-typists for non-typists. (i.e. C, Perl)
Those who would give up liberty in exchange for security and DRM should switch to Microsoft Palladium!
The minute I read the article, I realized what we'd be seeing in this thread on /. ... lots of modded up (+2, Funny) jokes about laziness, mocking posts saying RSI and carpal tunnel don't exist, etc, etc. Sad, really, that things are that predictable...
Obviously, not every single person claiming to have a disability actually has one. The guys with temporary paper tags in their windows filling up the handicap spaces so I can't park close enough to unload my walker from the car are very suspect... but just from what I'm reading here, this looks legitimate rather than someone being 'Lazy'.
And in her chosen profession, yes, not being able to type is a serious problem. As the third judge pointed out, in modern life in general typing is becoming more and more of a critical skill unless you wanna stuff tacos for a living. (CmdrTaco?) It's not fair to punt someone from the line of work they've trained for just because they COULD do something else that doesn't involve typing.
So, if you take as truth that we are dealing with a legit disability here and it's one that directly relates to her livelihood... the issue then becomes 'Well, what can be done?'. To that, I'm not sure. It sounds like lots of accommodations have already been made, to the point where they've run out of things that can make the situation more bearable for the reporter and allow her to do her job. I'm not sure if firing was appropriate, but they have hit a wall. That's the real issue here; not if she's faking it, but how can this be handled in a feasible and reasonable way?
Surely this is a risk of the job, like breaking your leg in football?
I mean, how many people who type nowadays DON'T know about RSI? If you don't know that after being in front of a keyboard for 24 years, your foolish. I have already considered the possibility of getting RSI later in life, weighed it up with my wish to be a software developer, and decided that I am prepared to live with it if (or more likely, when) the time comes.
The analogy with football is the best here - the risk is known, perhaps typists who are _that_ worried should get insurance in case they develop RSI?
So, according to this lady's argument any athlete should be eligible to for disabled status if they develop tendonitis. Thats just nuts. Yes, it sucks that she *can't* type anymore, but that is a basic function for her job and if she can't do it she has no right to expect to keep her job.
If it ain't broke, it obviously doesn't have enough features!
Well, I may not be the author of the post you're responding to, but I think RSI would fall under "physical defect". I can't believe how many people post "witty" responses with their heads shoved up their asses.
If you would have actually read the article you would realise that it is case 3..... Used to be able to type but can not anymore due to a RSI.
I can't believe how many people post w/out a clue of what the story is actually about
But the difference here (or so it appears) is that the job caused the disability. In general, Worker's Comp [in the US] is pretty simple...if something you do on the job prevents you from continuing to work, the company gets to pay you your salary to either not work or to work wherever they can find a place for you (even if that position would not normally have that payrate). So, yes, this is a job that she physically cannot do...but she cannot do it because she has been doing the job. So it is the company's responsibility to take care of her in the same way that the Air Force should take care of a mechanic with 30 years' service who gets carpal tunnel and can't turn a wrench anymore./p.
Is spelling impairment a disability? Maybe you should file a claim.
I've always thought so, and at times (a bug that I'd been staring at for a week) wished I didn't consider it dishonest to do so. I have better things to do with my life then sit 50 feet from the nearest window on a bright sunny day like today. Or maybe my disability is just that I don't have the right personality to be a fishing celeberty and put out on of those fish in the north woods shows...
The same sort of idiot who will soon mark us both as "offtopic"
psmylie's dictionary: Godzillion (noun) Any number large enough to destroy Tokyo
I disagree with Judge Berzon's dissent, especially where she writes:Using a computer is not essential to modern life, just as having a new pair of Skechers is not essential to my daughter's happiness. (And just what do we do to teach kids computing skills? Let them draw pictures & try to find pr0n on the web.) The ADA does not say that you are entitled to everything you had before you were disabled; it says you must have a fair shot at a job in spite of your disability. Cleary, she no claim.
PC-ness aside, there is a significant difference between someon who requires some accomodation for a diminished capacity and someone who is unable to perform the minimum required tasks of their employment.
The employer's obligation is to ignore dimished capabilities that do not affect job performance. They can't refuse to hire someone on the basis of an incidental disability. The most certainly can refuse to hire someone who is incapable of performing the essential job tasks.
I don't argue that a person who is unable to type isn't going to face fewer job prospects. I just think it misses the point-- laws against discrimination are expected to protect people from discrimination, not force employers to find work for disabled people.
What if you are an artist and become colour blind? What if you are a pilot and develop mild epilepsy? Hell, what if you are a sailor and develop severe sea sickness? It's bad luck. Life sucks somtimes. You have to get on a deal with it. These days people think the world owes them something, that they have some kind of right to be compensated for really bad things happening. Is it bad luck if the artist went blind due to paint thinner being splashed into her eyes at work? What if the employer did not supply the artist with appropriate safety supplies to keep it from happening in the first place? Is the artist then a lazy ass because she goes after the employer under the ADA? Surely the pilot isn't going to develop mild epilepsy due to flying a plane -- unless he experiences an injury while doing so. The point you fail to see is the injury is due to excessive typing -- doing a work-related task, probably *at* work or at least *doing* work for the company with whom she was employed. While I don't think I have enough information to determine whether or not she's "substantially limited" I do believe that given the information I do have, it *did* seem a little excessive for them to terminate her. Either way, just because she can't do what she is experienced in any longer doesn't mean she is a lazy oaff for not wanting to change careers. Not only is there a factor of not WANTING to change careers, but most people who are 40+ years old, i would think, would have a hard time finding a new career to sustain themselves. Try a little sympathy for the person's situation. You're probably in the computer industry, like most of us are. Heaven forbid if you're one of the unlucky of us that gets incredibly crippling carpal tunnel. Maybe if that happens, we can all visit you at McDonald's to tell you how much life sucks. But then, we probably wouldn't understand.
"...If you'd read the article, you'd have seen that reportedly 50% of jobs in the U.S. require daily interaction with a computer. And let me tell you, precious few of them are voice-activated :)..."
But what kind of interaction? The punk at the counter at Burger King interacts with computers; but would you make her a programmer? All most people do -- including my boss -- is check their email or open a Word document or tap a touch screen like the geniuses working fast food.
But wait...by opposing this, I'm throwing away my chance to use ADA to get into Pro Baseball. Afterall, it's not my fault I can't hit a 90mph fastball. I must be able to blame it on someone else....
i guess that all depends on how you earn a living. for me this is a problimatic ruling because i am a software engineer/programmer. i spent many years of my life in school getting trained to work on a computer. its what i do. if i could not earn a living (in what i have spent my highschool/college training for) because of RSI i would sure as hell consider myself disabled. sure i can go and get a job doing somthing else but by the time you have RSI you have more then likely built a career and a life around the computer. i would compare it to a construction worker with a bad back, they have the ability to work on computers and do other jobs but the fact of the matter is that they would get dissabilty, because they cant do their job.
"Shut up brain or ill stab you with a Q-tip" Homer Simpson
I think that this means that languages for people who can type use a lot less symbols than languages for people who can't.
Somebody explain to me how its a handicap not to be able to walk around the golf course, but not be able to type?
Mod point free since 2001
John Galt is coming.
Who is John Galt?
Chop off your head, that will get rid of 20 lbs of dead weight.
While it's clearly important that employers do as much as they can to support employees with disadvantages, such as this woman, there comes a point when they simply can't do the job any more. It's not their fault, but at the same time, it's not the employer's fault, and they certainly don't deserve to be taken to court over it.
I've seen companies bend over backwards to accommodate workers with disabilities. But at the end of the day, they need employees who can produce for them. It sucks, but there are some jobs that physically can't be done by some people. I for instance can't juggle, so I don't work in a circus.
No complaints about the post itself, but what sort of asinine moderator marks the First Post as "Redundant?"
It's one of those things were people laugh until they're the ones who get injured and lose their career. It's the nature of man.
Surely exactly the opposite is the whole point of the article?
The claim is that sufficient alternatives to keyboard input exist, not that sufficient alternatives to using a computer exist.
Which having seen my friend's ponderous progress with an on-screen keyboard and voice recognition, I have to say that's also bollocks, but that still isn't the same as what you were saying.
Andrew Oakley - www.aoakley.com
Your reply seems to be one of the more thoughtful ones in the discussion, and I agree with you. I had to sit on a jury several years ago that decided a disability case, and it was gut-wrenching. In our case the person had done manual labor most of her life and was unsuited by education for any viable alternative.
What I can't figure out is why voice recognition was deemed impractical. It would appear to be the most suitable method here.
Like you, I hope never to have to find this out for myself.
DUCT TAPE: The Election Supervisors' Secret Weapon
That's what insurance is for. If I loose a few digits in a farming accident* or due to nerve damage, I sue someone who is possibly culpable, and use the check to hire someone I can dictate to. Problem solved...
*How would someone who relies on their typing skills get involved in a farming accident?
Articles like this always tend to freak me out. I'm one of the more autistic geeks out there- couldn't finish school, couldn't keep a normal job because of 'Asperger's Syndrome', a sort of communication-enabled autism. Nobody knew what the hell it was when I was growing up. I developed an ulcer and tried everything from pizza cook to inventory and stockroom for a guitar pickup company, continually getting 'fired in sorrow' by people who knew that I was killing myself _trying_ to do what they wanted, but something was just not fitting somewhere. I turned to drugs (BAD F**KING MOVE) which helped stave off suicide for the time being. I ended up in debt, in a homeless shelter, from there to a psych ward (voluntarily- beat the homeless shelter as long as I behaved well enough to be legitimately allowed to refuse psych meds) and it was there that I found an advocate that got me on social security Disability.
That has meant a lot over the last 6 years or so. I'd never been able to live free from fear of homelessness or hunger before. Your mention of 'skiing holidays' was wonderful because it put things in perspective- I live on about $6K a year. No car (I don't consider myself fit to drive), no DVD player, no cable TV, yada yada. And yet being free from hunger and the destruction of my former life is such a blessing that I feel guilty when reading the harangues of people with ten or twenty times the income and resources of me!
I used to be lazy- or something that looked like it but was more like being stressed into immobility. Once I had the ability to define things on my own terms for a while, it turned out I wasn't lazy, and now I even court RSI ( ;) ) doing things that I like, or things that I mostly like that seem to be a path out of Disability towards a niche I can actually handle. For instance, I'm doing things related to costuming and finding there are actually people out there who'll pay money for that. Great! And so I do that for 12 hour days, alternating with days where I can't face it and sit back and don't do it anymore. I always liked audio and sound engineering, and one thing I taught myself over the last couple years is programming (in 'REALbasic'- sort of RAD language like a cleaner VB), and I now maintain an audio mastering program that I wrote for my own use- but GPLed.
*ramble* sorry for the ramble. All this strikes _very_ close to home. The upshot is, actually, that I don't have total sympathy for this reporter. I think it's great if she gets SSI and is allowed to live on about 6K a year (trust me, one can) to provide a space for her to learn what else she can do. I _don't_ think she is entitled to stick to what she _thinks_ she 'is' in life. At different times, I've thought I 'was' a cook, a stockroom person, a writer for The Absolute Sound (got several articles published actually), a Mac tech, etc. I don't believe any of these things really were so suitable that I should have been allowed to _stick_ myself in that role permanently. I'm glad I moved on from those things, and can draw on all of it as I continue in life.
I think the biggest reason this woman deserved to lose this particular case is because life changes, seemingly faster and faster, and you can't put down an anchor. The most you can ask for is a damn good life raft. I have that, I use it- I don't bitch that the government doesn't give me more money or expect it to under-write the possible paths _away_ from disability for me. It'll take longer for me to chisel out a niche in society this way. That's okay. By the time I do, the niche may not last, but I'll have got good enough at chiseling out niches that I'll no longer fear anything.
My advice to this reporter would be: can you sit back and take stock without fear of homelessness and starvation at this point, and what other roles in life could you see yourself filling?
Repetitive Stress Injury is a generic term for conditions like Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, it's used CONSTANTLY in the medical field, and on slashdot itself.
...not taking the time to learn to touch type is definitely handicapping yourself unnecessarily.
When people ask me how to speed up their computers I say: "Get a copy of Mavis Beacon!".
Police officer, fireman ... generally any civil service position for which there is an exam and strict requirements as to how people are hired and/or fired. Firing someone in violation of those requirements can be a taking of property (your job) in violation of the 5th Amendment to the US Constitution
Laws affecting technology will always be bad until enough techies become lawyers.
I was doin unix support @ lucent and we hade to work to get this user's CDE fonts *HUGE* [think like 8x3 chars on a 21" monitor] even then the user had to have their nose like 10 inches (.3M) from the screen !!! The user had some degenerative eye disease
... the user drove themself to work everyday, and the car was dent free.
The shocking part is
-- www.globaltics.net
Political discussion for a new world
who has carpel tunnel or arthritis ... it's time for management and a big bottle of asprin.
-- www.globaltics.net
Political discussion for a new world
Now obviously if she didn't have hands, that would be something different, but from reading the article the impression that I got was that she was perfectly fine physically.
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
What negligence? This employee, and NOT all the other employees, got RSI. The employer even made efforts to mitigate or prevent the effects of RSI when the employee started feeling the symptoms.
Suddenly? This employee kept doing the things that led to the RSI in the first place, for several more years! Why didn't she think of a career change sooner? I quit retail sales work because some of those people made me sick to my stomach. She had actual PAIN, and continued despite it.
If you do something that injures yourself, it isn't a disability, it's a fscking INJURY. Nobody disputes that she's injured, just that she's disabled. She sued to get her self-inflicted injury declared a disability because the company couldn't have her do the work she wanted to do. She would certainly have qualified for worker's comp, but not disability.
120 characters?! Who do they think they are, telling me I only get 120 characters? This will never do. I must have mor
The company made accommodations, including workstation adjustments, new chairs, modified work schedules and a gym membership. She filed additional claims several years later when her condition worsened and the company granted her an extended leave. In 1997, the company contemplated voice recognition technology and reassignment as alternatives but ultimately concluded they were not viable.
Working in a particular job is not a right (most times), but the employer should not be able to decide unilaterally what accommodations they will make and which ones they will not. What you are essentially saying is that people who are otherwise talented and effective in their jobs can be forced to find other jobs when they are injured BECAUSE of the one they chose? Keep in mind that their choice of new jobs will now be severely limited because of the injury.
Why couldn't she dictate her stories to a secretary? I always thought the most important skills for good writing were the ability to think clearly and to have a mastery of the language in which you write.
By the way, I know a LOT of civil servants who will be able to tell you that working in SOME jobs IS a right....in certain jobs, even a Constitutional right.
Laws affecting technology will always be bad until enough techies become lawyers.
The court made the point that she is not injured to the point that her daily life activities are impared. And even though she may not be able to keep up with the pace of typing at her old job, there are ways to be employed in her field that don't involve so much typing. She's not shut out of her field the way that, say, a truck driver would be if he went blind.
Does anyone have a right to be able to keep working at the same job after they get injured? What about minor league baseball players that get career-ending injuries, even debilitating injuries? They can't engage in their chosen profession anymore, and they haven't made tons of money yet so they can retire, but none of them claim disability. The good ones become coaches, and the bad ones go into a totally diffenent field. Maybe that's a bad example, because baseball players don't expect to be playing until they're 55, but you get what I mean.
Now, the job likely caused the carpal tunnel, but that's a different issue altogether. Regardless of what caused it, she has it now, and unfortunately has to live with it now.
I'm certainly not trying to make light of this woman's problem, because it is serious. I'm just wondering where you draw the line that says that a person can or can't find work in their field due to their injuries or disabilities. If a person can't continue at their job, but can do a similar job, does that count as being "substantially limited" in your abilities?
I hope I never have to find out.
Well.. I typically "lean left" politically, but in this case, I agree with the courts. It appears that the employer made reasonable efforts to accommodate the reporter.
I wonder what type of medical treatment she had... if I remember correctly, there are surgical techniques that can be performed to correct these types of injuries.
I also wonder how much effort she put into researching assistive technologies- other than voice recognition. In 1997, voice recognition technology might not have been adequate, but currently, I think that's a very viable option. Via Voice appears to be a great product (of course, I'm making that judgement based only on the demo's I've seen).
She's got all kinds of employment opportunities.. it looks like she's just looking for an easy way out. When people are put into a difficult situation, they can play one of two roles: the "helpless victim" and the "adapt and overcomer". I saw a woman once who had no arms but still used a computer. She typed with her toes. If that woman can use a computer, I see no reason why the reporter in this article could not adapt and overcome her injuries. It looks like she's rather be a "helpless victim".
He uses something that looks like a combination of an enigma machine and a superfast dictaphone, connected to his PC.
His code is really well commented (for finding his way around it I guess).
Does linux support disabled users at all, like microsoft does?
Keep in mind the judges that rendered this decison get a fat pension FOR LIFE - they have no idea what it will mean to have to choose between a fuel bill and a box of mac and cheese.
you think it's easy, but you're wrong...
"In this case, Thornton was able to perform a wide range of manual tasks, including grocery shopping, driving, making beds, doing laundry and dressing herself," wrote Judge Michael Daly Hawkins in Thornton v. McClatchy Newspapers, 01 C.D.O.S. 7070. "Her inability to type and write for extended periods of time is not sufficient to outweigh the large number of manual tasks that she can perform."
They didn't define 'extended' periods ? 10 minutes , 20 ?
As for the pain of CTS I know it all to well (thank God for my Kinesis keyboard)... I also had surgery in Feb to repair torn ligiments and shorten the arm bone (the cause of the torn ligaments). After that my CTS improved in that arm (now I just pray that my other arm gets better)....
UPS Sucks
Won't work. They'll just ask you why you didn't teach yourself. First time I ever took a typing course they rated me at 72wpm and told me to go away.
1.Languages designed by people who can type (i.e. Pascal, Modula2, Basic, Fortran)
how could you forget COBOL?
At the intersection of computation and biology.
Well, gee that's a tough one. They just might have to use something other than linux.
What do you expect from somebody who not only used Frontpage to design his site, but also tries to pimp sales of it through amazon.com?
What if you have a Masters in Computer Science, and you have a car accident and damage your hands to the point of not being able to use a computer. According to this ruling, would they just tell the poor guy that he has to go flip burgers for the rest of his life?
When someone files for disability, they receive money from the federal government stating that they cannot work. Say some construction guy has been working on houses for 20 years and is finally to old and worn out (due to injuries) that he can no longer build houses or whatever. He files for disability to help him live. Well what happens when a 55 year old programmer has carpel tunnel or arthritis? I guess you should hope by the time you reach that age you can dictate your code to the computer. I think this is not as obvious as it first seems.
Only cases on the fringe would ever get to court. Everything else can be either granted or rejected based on obviousness or precedent.
Ok, first off, an RSI is not a mental problem..its continual strain on the body by doing a repetitive task over and over (i.e. lifting heavy objects all day, typing, etc.) Considering that she had worked for this place for many years, it's highly unlikely that this is a fake claim, especially since ergonomics didn't really begin to be considered seriously in the workplace until the 90s. According to workers compensation law, if her employer can provide reasonable accomodations for her, then she can go back to work on modified duties. But since they couldn't (or wouldn't) they terminated her. I'm not too sure on how the law works on that, but I believe that she is still entitled to her temporary disability rate (which would be 2/3 her weekly salary, or 490 dollars, whichever is lower. In her case I would assume the 490) that temporary disability rate will last her for 90 days, at which point a decision will be made on whether or not she is disabled. More than likely she has a case with the WCAB (workers compensation appeals board) and will get a nice settlement or vocational rehabilitation of some sort.
Chris Hiner already mentioned Via Voice from IBM, I'm just going to say that I'm running on the assumption that in 1997, a reporter wasn't going to be using linux to write their stories :)
Clinton signed it a few years agol
http://www.theonion.com/onion3324/noabilities.htm
She has another very clear shot at $$ from her employer. Under recent changes in California law, virtually everyone is disabled if they have a disorder or a condition that merely limits a major life activity (which includes working). The appeals court sent the case back to the lower court to rule on this part of the law.
Well if you end up laid off, unable to find another job, and get kicked out of where you live because you can't pay the rent/mortgage then I bet your tune will change real quick.
No job = no money = no place to live
Hacing a job is not a luxury, it is a necessity.
As for reality (vs denying reality), we pay for the homeless problem,
either in taxes and donations for shelters, or in crime and other disturbances caused by people living on the street.
So even if the human cost doesn't bother you, there is a good economic (and quality of life) argument for you.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
I work in Disability Insurance and for SSI Disability to kick in, it is necessary for the claimant to prove that if they are not blind, or deaf, or missing limbs, they must not be able to perform in 'any' work.
You are not considered disabled if you can only not work in 'your' field.
In this case, she can no longer perform her job after much accomodations, but it is obvious that she can work somewhere else, and is not disabled outside the work place.
10 years ago we didn't have viable voice recognition software. Four years ago when this reporter was fired, we DID. The employer spent a bunch of money on chair and workstation modifications instead of spending it on voice recognition software.
Edward Scissorhands, one might recall, was the chief architect of the Microsoft split keyboard.
____
Sometimes the voices in my head speak over each other. This is one of those times.
carpal tunnel (RSI) isn't a disability, its a badge of honor!
May you be touched by His Noodly Appendage. RAmen.
This is pretty self explanitory, no? If you can't do the job, then you should not be employed to do said job. I remember the big whoopla about the lowering of standards of physical strength for certain jobs (firefighters in particualar). Immagine the loss of family members in a house fire because a small weak firefighter couldn't carry them out. Well dear reader, take comfort in the knowlege that your loved one died so that a person could do what they wanted to do for a living, rather than what they were qualified for.
Kiss my shiny metal ass
But then the fat Americans don't rely on walking and running to earn their income.
Maybe on your planet...
I'm probably missing something here.
Yup -- the worker's comp statutes (which are state laws) are entirely different than the ADA (which is a federal law). Also, the purposes behind worker's comp laws -- compensation for injury on the job -- and ADA laws -- preventing discrimination against disabled people for the disability -- are entirely different. Thus, the outcomes aren't inconsistent.
In almost any (non-contract) job in the US, you can quit for any reason. This also means that you can be fired for any reason, provided it is not due to discrimination against a protected class.
"Protected class" usually includes people with disabilities, but provisions are made for people who are too disabled to do their job without reasonable accommodation. In other words, someone who is not able to lift more than 30 pounds won't get hired as a furniture mover, but might get hired by the same company as a typist. Someone who was hired as a mover but then lost their lifting ability will lose their job. But reasonable accomodation could mean getting voice-to-text software for the typing-impaired, thus allowing them to do their job and not get fired.
Of course, there are all sorts of add-ons like worker's comp, etc. that keep workers from getting screwed in situations like that.
For the record, IANAL. While I did do tech support for an HR dept. for a couple years, in no way do I imply that this makes me an expert in employment law. I could be wrong, and often am.
Fortunately, I don't care if I'm wrong.
psmylie's dictionary: Godzillion (noun) Any number large enough to destroy Tokyo
I think the process for obtaining ADA status has become too easy. All too frequently I am witness to people who have no disbilties whatsoever other than being lazy and inconsiderate but yet have handicap license plates. So, does that mean being lazy and inconsiderate ARE handicaps?
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
I knew our school had ignorant teachers......not to mention old outdated and innacurate text books. Well it's fixed now, thx for the info.
"
This is the law though - it's extremely difficult to get on dissability, contrary to what most people believe. My father has post polio disorder - he's in constant physical pain (which only hard narcotics can dull, so he doesn't take anything), can hardly walk, can't type, can't sit for long periods of time, has trouble doing analytical thinking (a symptom of polio, believe it or not), and looks like hell - but he had to go through three appeals to get on disability, because according to the initial board of review he could still work. Not that I'm complaining, I think dissability should be as difficult to get on as possible, to stop freeloaders... I don't think the article gives enough details for me to make a judgement on this case, but considering the standards they set, I'm not too surprised.
Check out Treesandthings.com for offbeat news
?
Oh well... I'm probably missing something here. Perhaps qualifiying as "disabled" under the ADA is more stringent than the requirements for workers comp. Or perhaps, as another poster mentioned, there is more to this case than the defense attorney is letting on. Or maybe this phone sex worker story is an urban legend (a Salon article was the most reputable reference I could find to back it up). I'm hoping something like this will explain the discrepency here.
-----
Free P2P Backup, Windows & Linux
They call me the Mad Milkman
Repetitive motion disorder? Does that mean I have to stop masturbating? I'd better be careful.
"Stop saying 'Don't quote me' because if no one quotes you, you probably haven't said a thing worth saying" -KMFDM
Why do so many people leave themselves open to vulnerability? Of course we cannot protect ourselves from every possible misfortune that might happen to us, but we can limit our risks. Why should society have to pay for others misfortunes? I believe in helping others, but others must also help themselves.
t ml
If one is concerned about not being able to work in their own occupation as a result of a disability, they should buy a disability insurance policy. For about $2000 a year a healthy person can buy a disability insurance policy that will pay them $2000 a month for as long as they are unable to perform their own occupation up to the age of 65. To many people, like myself, the peace of mind is worth the price. If one does not want to pay the price to limit their risks should they become disabled, the rest of us should not be obligated to pay the price of supporting their lifestyle after they are disabled.
If you feel disability insurance is too expensive, think of how much the insurance company may have to pay if you were to become disabled. Think of it this way: If you were offered two identical jobs, one paid you $50,000 a year while you worked, but nothing if you were ever sick or hurt. One paid you $47,000 a year, and 60% of your income tax free if you were ever sick or hurt, which would you take?
http://www.insure.com/health/longtermdisability.h
http://www.guardiandibrokerage.com/
It is if you're a secretary, though.
Was RSI common, well-known, and preventable 24 years ago? No. Are workers at a box-making factory required to provide their own safety gear to avoid getting sucked into the box-making machinery? No, although they are expected to not cross the danger line, etc. There's some responsibility on the part of both employee and employer.
I'm not necessarily blaming the employer, because I don't see how they could have known 24 years ago that this would become a problem, and it does sound like they did make some efforts to help the employee out. But I think that if the same scenario happened today with a worker who started there three years ago, the situation would be much different.
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
No, didn't you know that were all in a huge race to have the highest karma post - so we can shamelessly plug our online interests? I read them though...
Check out the Nexes : telnet://nexesbbs.dynip.com - MajorMUD 60 player...
I learned in high school. Took a one semester course. Was typing like a pro in a month. The rest of the class was spent learning how to type specific kinds of documents.
Do this:
- Make a large chart of the keyboard, put it on the wall.
- Put tape over the labels of the keys on your keyboard.
- Write a program to drill yourself
- Practice for 30 minutes a day, for a month
The chart and tape is important because you must learn to not look at the keys. Look at something else, like a wall chart, and your mind has to think which finger to use.Day 1: Drill on only "A" and ";". Write a program to generate a sequence of "A" and ";" that you try to replicate -- at whatever speed you're comfortable. Use only your two pinkies. All fingers on the home row. Program says: aaa;;a;a;;;;aa;a;;;aaa;a;;a;;aa. DO NOT stop until 30 minutes have elapsed. You will now know "A" and ";" on your pinkies like a pro.
Day 2: Add the next fingers "S" and "L". Drill on all four. (Or only add "S", and tomorrow add "L".) Your program should generate a drill pattern like: aa;s;;slla;ls;als;alslsla;slsla;sl
Day 3: Add next fingers "D" and "K". 30 minutes.
Then add: "F", and "J".
Then add: "G" and "H".
Then work on the rows above and below home. Choose what letters to add each day as you see fit. Maybe you add "B" and "Y" on one day.
In a few weeks you really will type like a pro. Maybe even 40-50 words per minute.
Those who would give up liberty in exchange for security and DRM should switch to Microsoft Palladium!
Scatterbrained is an old Internet term describing a person who doesn't remember to close their tags!
Have fun: Join D.N.A. (National Dyslexics Association)
If I see one more obease fat ass check into the handicap spot, when my friend with MS and I try and locate something not in BFE it irks me to high hell.
They need an obease-cap spot but make sure its in BFE the walk will do you good.
-M
"Life is all about strategy, mathematics and psychological perceptiveness."
There are, as I see it, two reasons not the be able to type:
1) Just not taking the time to learn/practice the ability.
2) Some physical defect
IANAL, but, in case two, to descriminate against the person for not being able to type would be decrimination against their physical disability, which would be against the law (correct?) .
In case one it's not any more descrimination for a job than if someone applies to be a web-designer and doesn't know HTML. In that case it's just that the person isn't qualified for the job.
Then again, I could be wrong. Just the way I see it.
By the way, the reporter is a SHE, not a HE...
Laws affecting technology will always be bad until enough techies become lawyers.
K STrongtygyl objewtedfct to thhsis rruoling!!@!
Promote proofreading. Don't mod up sloppy posts.
I love the smell of Karma in the morning
This is about RSI, not the inability to learn a skill. !
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
A number of the responses speak to whether the inability to type is a disability with regard to the job. Of course it is, but that isn't the issue. In fact, a law that required employers to let people who cannot do the job do the job would be stupid, even in this age of stupid laws.
A purpose of the Americans with Disabilities Act (which I do not necessarily agree with) is to let people who are disabled in life be employed. The idea is that a blind person ought to be able to find some employment that they can do and not have an employer turn them away because they are blind and a nuisance. The idea is not (I hope) to prohibit employers from turning a person away because they cannot do the job.
So, if a person cannot type, they should not be entitled to a job that requires typing. (Of course, if an employer caused the disability, perhaps they should be liable for that.) And since typing does not prevent most of life's activities and not any critical activities and, in all likelihood, does not prevent a person from finding some other job, this disability does not qualify for protection by law from discrimination.
Again, the ADA is intended to protect people who would be discriminated against on grounds unrelated to their ultimate ability (that is, with remediation) to do the job, not to protect people who would be discriminated against on grounds related to their ability. (I think the ADA goes too far, protecting people who will have much less net productivity than more qualified workers, but this is unrelated to whether it does apply in this case.)
I had meant to add a *sarcasm* to the end of my original post.. I was looking for 'Funny', not 'Insightful' :)..
But I'll take all the karma I can get.
ATTENTION! Legal note: The above post may not be read in the State of Kansas.
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
If you'd read the article, you'd have seen that reportedly 50% of jobs in the U.S. require daily interaction with a computer. And let me tell you, precious few of them are voice-activated
I work at a computer, and fast typing is not necessary. Not everything on a computer is word processing or data entry.
Would you be willing to throw away 24 years of your career and start fresh, competing against kids that just got out of college, because of a debilitating physical condition brought on by your employer?
Stop blaming "the other guy"! RSI is common, well-known and preventable. Maybe the worker is a fault for not taking the necessary preventive action.
This was an excellent, common-sense decision rendered by the court. It's refreshing to see the courts stopping a frivolous, get-rich-quick lawsuit.
...ever heard of wrist braces?
:D
My right wrist flares up every now and again, due to injuries caused by me being a klutz on ice(repeatedly..jeez..) and by me holding my wrist funny when using the mouse or keyboard on that side.
When it starts to hurt to the point where it becomes distracting, it goes in the brace for a day or two. A couple of advil or aleve never hurt the situation either.
On the rare occaions I'm NOT typing at work, it's easy to take a couple minutes to just give the irritated wrist a quick little massage
Y'know, it's hard to type with your wrists in 'proper position', I find myself actually forcing against the brace.
IMO that woman is just a whiner; it looks as though her employer has bent over backwards to accomodate her, and she wanted more more more more.
There are a lot of options she could've taken(physical therapy, braces, massage, speech recognition software, even surgery) to keep her RSI under control, and it looks as though she chose to do nothing, let it get worse and worse, then blame her employer.
http://pebkac.net
I have a step brother who is quadraplegic. He can move his arms, but not his hands. He types using gloves with a 'stick' on each glove. He IS disabled but he can still type, just not very fast. In fact, he is the webmaster at a major university.
It's hard to say whether or not she should qualify for being disabled since she will live almost a completely normal life, but she should definately get worker's compensation.
And getting a termination letter from her employer like that...That's just a cruel thing to do. What jerks!
Or maybe it's reverse discrimination! I know how to type so people will give me jobs! Maybe I should fight for my constitutional right to NOT GET JOBS BECAUSE I DISERVE THEM.
I am really getting sick of this country. (*sigh*)
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
I'm not a doctor and I'm pretty new on Slashdot so I guess I didn't know that. Would've helped if the author of the article had put it in Caps like you did and like most people do when referring to a recognized condition. Now as punishment I'll simply have to live with the same of making an ass of myself (pretty common actually) and the massive loss of Karma I expect is coming :)
"
From the article:
""In this case, Thornton was able to perform a wide range of manual tasks, including grocery shopping, driving, making beds, doing laundry and dressing herself," wrote Judge Michael Daly Hawkins in Thornton v. McClatchy Newspapers, 01 C.D.O.S. 7070. "Her inability to type and write for extended periods of time is not sufficient to outweigh the large number of manual tasks that she can perform.""
In other words, she may not be able to hold down a career, but she'd make it as a housewife.
Sad to see that members of the judiciary have yet to join the 20th, let alone the 21st century.
So she chose a profession that she could not perform adequately, and now wants others to be forced to allow her to do it anyway. Does this apply to any skill, or just typing? Can I be a sprinter if I weigh 300 pounds and can't run? Can I be deaf and have a job that requires talking on the phone all day? Can I be blind and direct traffic?
Oh, but typing is different - it's a physical activity that some people can't perform a great deal of. OK, how about construction or garbage collection. Jobs that require constant physical exertion. Many people can't handle this. Should the ADA protect them?
The ADA was meant to protect people who, say, are in a wheelchair, and could do their job if only there were a ramp up the stairs so they can get into the office. That's a far stretch from someone who lacks a basic requirement for the job.
What would a company do if they were a Linux shop? I'm not trolling, I'm serious. I don't think there is Dragon Naturally Speaking (TM) for Linux.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
This is just as silly as a jewish policeman or fireman sueing because the job requires work on saturdays. They knew that the job required that you work on saturdays, just as this lady can only do her job if she can type.
its sad that its not PC to say something like "There are only some jobs that physically can't be done by some people", because its the truth. People just sue because they don't like the truth.
Hmmm... wouldn't that make her more stressed? :)
Jeez, now even the courts are trying to tell us that real programmers don't need strong typing!
or CmdrTaco. I think they took a little jab at Taco.
It's from the never-stopped-CmdrTaco-Before-Dept. That's freakin hilarious
This, my friend, is called begging the question. You would still be able to work, just not at your original profession, which is the crux of the discussion. Should the government support those who can't be what they desire, or those who can't support themselves at all? Simply claiming "You wouldn't be able to work.." completely ignores the other side of the discussion.
I'd mod this up...but I have a modding disability.
It reminds me of the Vonnegut story of Harrison Bergeron, where people who are better at something are artificially handicapped so that everybody is equal. If employeres are allowed to consider my characteristics which make me good at a job, they should be allowed to consider those that make me bad for a job, too, including those I'm born with or those that I acquire by accident.
If this employer is wrong, so what. There are four million other employers in the country. Surely if something is not important for a job, most other employers will agree with you.
It shouldn't be the responsibility of every individual or every business to have the wisdom of Solomon. Fairness in the private sector comes about from choice.
I have to say that carpel tunnel (sp?) is tough to overcome, but this is a reporter who could easily be supplied with any number of voice recognition softwares available on the market and be able to perform his job. He is not left unable to perform critical tasks, nor even prevented from doing his job so long as his workplace is willing to provide the appropriate software. I have to agree with the judge, honestly.
Insightful??? Did you read the article? This is not a person who just decided that she wants a typing job, even though she can't do it. This is a person who could type, but because of on-the-job repetetive stress injuries (i.e.: typing?) that she is unable to do her job any more!
If you had a physical job (e.g.: working on an assembly line, construction, etc.), and due to a work related injury were no longer able to perform, you'd probably be set for life. I know an old assembly line guy from Ford. He was injured on the job and no longer has the use of one of his arms enough to do the job. He hasn't worked since, he just collects disability.
how many IT "proffessionals" do you know that type with their index fingers? If you have mild CTS you can always claim incompitant at typing and get at the keyboard w/ 2 fingers. unproductive sure, but i've known ppl who can do about 30wpm like that.
Typing is a skill, and almost anyone can learn to type.
It is like me applying for a job as a pilot, and not knowing how to fly a plane.
I want my rights back. I was actually using them when our government stole them after 9/11.
Jesus Christ, thank god they ruled against this reporter, because otherwise it opens the floodgates for a whole freakshow of losers claiming to be "disabled" and requiring special treatment to make up for the fact that they're either stupid or lazy.
"I can't type", "I can't read", "I can't add", well boo fucking hoo, get over it and get on with life. Not being able to type is hardly the end of the world, there are plenty of jobs out there that don't require constant typing.
Oh, and it's also only RSI! It's not even like she's had her fingers chopped off now is it? I know people in this country like to make every little thing into a medical conditions, but if this continues then sufferers of FALSE (Fat And Lazy SyndromE) will be clamoring for ADA protection and handouts.
Well done the court for once!
Can I be a sprinter if I weigh 300 pounds and can't run?
.ph0x
Sprinting is not a professional career.
Can I be deaf and have a job that requires talking on the phone all day?
Yes it's called a teletypist - thanks to this invention, people who are hearing impared can type messages through a phone line which is then inturpreted by an outside service, and therefore can do their job successfully.
Can I be blind and direct traffic?
I wouldn't reccomend it.
-
The ADA protects other 'crippled' people by providing a means for them to work and to do their job to the best of their potential. How is this different from typing, or any other profession which would be endangered due to a disability?
---
ps -aux | grep mind
The article listed a bunch of accommodations her employer obviously made to help this woman continue on in her job, so they probably aren't heartless bastards. Plus, just because you can't type doesn't mean you can't use some sort of voice recognition/dictation software in lieu of a keyboard.
I'm a wholehearted supporter of the ADA, but so many suits today are on the fringes of what the original legislation was supposed to protect. And, regardless of the fact that employers win over 90% of ADA related cases (many due to the "undue burden" clause), frivolous cases such as this only spawn more frivolous cases.
This just isn't fair! I can't type!! oh wait. I just did.
"In this case, Thornton was able to perform a wide range of manual tasks, including grocery shopping, driving, making beds, doing laundry and dressing herself," wrote Judge Michael Daly Hawkins in Thornton v. McClatchy Newspapers, 01 C.D.O.S. 7070. "Her inability to type and write for extended periods of time is not sufficient to outweigh the large number of manual tasks that she can perform."
I find it a little odd that domestic tasks are being weighed evenly against workplace tasks... as far as I can see, isn't this trying to assess her fitness in the workplace?
I would have thought being unable to do the main (?) part of her work would be substantially limiting... or is the limitation for living as a whole and not just for working?
*pondering*
on the practical side, teaching has been suggested, maybe she'll have some luck there...
Blower is a old newspaper term describing a person who takes news reports over the phone and types them up.
I think I now know why she never took the VSR route. She didn't want to draw attention to it's existence to her employers because it makes her job redundant!
From hell's heart I fstab at /dev/hdc
I was involved in an accident a few years ago that left me missing two fingers on my left hand. That of course make normal keyboarding impossible. I am an IT professinal and I have never been cut any slack becasue of my (and I hate using this term) disablity, and never thought I deserved any either, I have to applaud the court for not buckling under pressure and finally saying that SOMETHING was NOT a disablity.
And then there are languages for those who like to type a lot of parentheses (ie Scheme, LISP)
"You like Chinese food." -Fortune Cookie
There are many things I can't do now that I used to be able to do simply because of normal aging. That doesn't mean that I should be on disability because of it.
Reality is harsh. There are no guarantees.
The article reads funny , as you put it, because it was written by somebody with a rather tenuous grasp on the English language.
The point of the judgement seems to be that, although Thornton has been working as a journalist for over twenty years, the inability to type is no real problem.
Sonia Giordani should be relieved to hear that... Presumably, inability to write correctly is no bar to working as a journalist, either.
what are they supposed to do? buy Dragon Naturally Speaking
if they'd truely evaluated it in 1997, they would have come to the conclusion that she could continue to do her job with assistance from software and a microphone
they didn't evaluate anything, they just decided they wanted to get her off their hands
I would clarify "Physical Defect" to mean "No Fingers". I would consider an RSI as something separate from this. It's not a clear-cut case, because she got her injury because of her job. It's like being a hot dog vendor for 25 years, then finding out hot dogs emit toxic gases that will render you unable to serve hot dogs anymore, and being fired because of this.
I don't believe it was common knowledge 20 years ago that constant typing in a non-ergonomic position would cause you to permanently lose your ability to type. I don't think her condition is serious enough to be labeled as a "disability", as she is still able to carry out day-to-day functions 100%, but because she could not perform her job eventually because of conditions at her job, it definately deserved to have some kind of judicial precedence set.
either my pain threshold is abnormally high or typing with CT isn't as bad as ppl make it out to be (I have had it for a couple of years now myself). It has never stopped me from being able type at a decent rate. so it hurts some, boo-fucking-hoo, adapt it is what our race does best. learn techniques to get yourself better at typing with your newly found disability and go on. hell i wound up with a screwdriver going through my hand probly about a year and a half ago (accident working with a long thin screwdriver on a stubbern screw) this never stopped me from getting back to coding when i got back from the doctors. if you get a 'disability' suck it up and deal with it. if needed take small breaks and maybe take some excedrin.
Tell me about it! The main appeal of Python, to me, is that I can type it.
It gets worse though, and we've all been there, when we get to *text editors* designed for people who can't type.
Maybe that's why emacs is so popular, if what you're typing is C code, what the hell difference does it make?
KFG
If that were true, most of the industry would be out on disability, leaving jobs for the rest of us.
Or you waste large amounts of company money just because someone makes a ridiculous claim. I'm sorry but if you are so "stressed" that you can't type, someone should be kind and beat your whining ass with a hammer. A person who can become so overwhelmed by stress that they can't type, was obviously unstable to begin with. If she lost her fingers in an accident.....sure get the Voice Recognition Software for her, if she's so "stressed" she can't type for long periods of time....get her the Pink Slip. My typing skills are horrible, why? because my fingers are to big to be placed in the proper spots on a normal keyboard, thats a real excuse for not being able to type fast (not for not being able to type for long periods of time though) but I wouldn't expect my boss to pay for VRS or a special keyboard. If I want these things I'll pay for and install them, not expect the company to. I do feel that VRS is great and should be more widely used, but in the end companies shouldn't be forced to buy it simply because of a whiny employee, she should go find employment where there is VRS if she wants it, not sue her employer by claiming a ridiculous disablity. It is my opinion that somewhere in life she got the idea tat she deserved having her every whim granted and when she decided she didn't want to type anymore (come on stress?) she expected her company to foot the bill. When they didn't she decided to show them by not doing her work, claiming disablity, and when she got fired for not doing her work (how dare they) she decided to sue. I'm sorry for going on a rant but I hate seeing bullshit cases like get attention, she should've been laughed out of the courtroom already.
"
Lawyer rabble aside, I think the judges got it right on this one. First of all, there is still plenty of dispute in the medical community on whether or not repetitive stress injuries are as severe as they are represented to be. Beside that point, simply being unable to type or write for extended periods of time does not make one unable to perform some productive task to earn a living. Granted, it does eliminate quite a few jobs from the list, but definitely not all of them.
As a developer, though, I have to say it would be a terrible blow to my career to lose the ability to type for extended periods of time. Who knows? I might have go into...consulting...or something.
My sigs always suck.
Just because you can't type doesn'mt mean you're unable to operate a computer... Unless your arms have been completely severed off, Monty Python style.
But seriously... If you worked in the IS field and you ended up with CTS, thus requiring a surgery, and your physician said "If you ever type again you're going to be in the same situation." then it's time to find some good dictation software.
Could you imagine trying to dictate C/C++ or Perl though? lol. "No no no, I said left open bracket, no! NO! LEFT OPEN BRACKET! BACKSPACE BACKSPACE! LEFT OPEN BRACKET!"
"Stop saying 'Don't quote me' because if no one quotes you, you probably haven't said a thing worth saying" -KMFDM
Yeah, sure. A blind person can do all of those things. But what's important here is that Jacalyn Thornton could still do all these things, and she could still see.
I was a college student majoring in piano performance, and then I got tendonitis in my wrists from the intensity of the stuff I was playing. It sucked, I had to change my major, and my level of performance has dropped significantly because I can't practice the 4 hours a day I used to. I can barely stand to listen to myself play now. But, if this had never happened to me, I would not have the programming job I have now (it's two different kinds of motion, that's why I can type but not play.) Everything works out if you're not a whiner and can look on the bright side of life ;-)
>And where is gov't funding for voice recognition software?
I hope one won't need to swear to input those g*d d*mn @%#$&$~@{}* characters...
i fnd ths t eb a hge dawbak to my abilty t o ty p o AOL, and tis rluing has prvetned em frm mlaing imllions ni a calss atcion awlsut agnst AOL, sppuirt me yoo fag0ts!!!
Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
Footballers who get old get layed off, models who lose their looks loose their jobs, typists who can't type loose their jobs
Does anyone know the specifics of how the Americans with Disabilities Act and its relatives are worded. Your comment about football players made me wonder - could the infirmities that come with age be considered a disability?
--the simpsons
We basically have the defense attorney's side of the story. The story basically suggests that she became too much of a burden on the company (cost wise) and they fired her. What happens if the other side of the story is she came in 2 hours late, took a 3 hour lunch and left at 3:00 in the afternoon while hanging out at the coffee machine most of the day? I know it's a gross exaggeration, but where is the company's side? I posted earlier that I supported disability for this kind of issue, but I think there must be something more going on behind the scenes in this issue that we have not been told.
Unfortunately, this is a common thing. Wal-Mart got sued and lost when it provided sign language interpreters for two deaf ladies during training, but refused to hire the interpreters full time. Companies like Wal-Mart go out of there way to provide jobs for the disabled, but are still unable to please people who are after just one thing: money.
You are receiving this message because your browser supports Slashdot Sigs and you have Slashdot Sigs enabled.
Sorry, the fact that repetitive stress injuries could easily be taken to mean, emotional damages from repeated instances of high stress deadlines makes it harder to interpret. If it was entered as Repetitive Stress Injuries (RSI) it would have been a little easier to interpret. I also would think they would have made mention of CTS somewhere in there. Not to mention, most lawsuits today are so ridiculous I automatically assume the worst. If this women seriously has physical limitations that prevent her from typing then I apologize and as I said above, employers should help out someone with physical disablities who can't type. I would take all my posts down if Slashdot allowed it.
"
I used to work for a company that makes parking meters. We had to make them usable by the blind (really!) This included braille keypads, tactile strips, and audible instructions in 3 languages.
"But blind people generally don't drive cars", we'd point out. The answer was usually something like "But what if a sighted guy drives, but his blind friend wants to pay for parking?". Then the sighted guy is a jerk, I suppose.
Slashdot: come for the pedantry, stay for the condescension.
everyone keeps forgetting this is a WORK RELATED injury, she was not born with this disability, it did not occur in an accident outside of work
if a workplace has shoddy oh&s and cripples an employee as a result, they should be taking some responsibility
Thinking about it now, I guess my plan to claim that I was a programmer who couldn't type was flawed from the start...
-NeoTomba
the article should have been more specific, if the woman had physical limitations it should have stated it more clearly. If they're talking abou CTS then she should have gotten the VRS. "Repetitive stress injury" is pretty confusing when repetitive stress in a reporting job could easily mean having to type articles on time often, and emotional problems are often referred to as "injuries", when there was no mention of CTS I simply assumed that they meant emotional injuries. My mistake if they meant physical.
"
you are a fucking faggot. you fucking retard. "my hands are sore!!!" "mattel ruined my hands" blah blah blah... FUCK YOU! your hands should be cut off immediately. after all you are disabled and your hands are ruined... surely you won't object to removing some dead weight. again.......FUCK YOU!!!!!
Allow me to toss some sense inot this
Personally I think that my mild (relativly)
RSS
Can be esxtremly disabling, given that speratic loss of full fine moter grip on objects is a acident waiting to happen
And only R'nR of the effected nervous system helps
Voice reconation for IBMS is ok,BR> But for Unix and MacOS they have someways to go
(iListen eats ram faster than FreeBSD installs or quicker than a LinuxUser erases windows.)
it's ADA purely by defination, as for spirit of the law...mabie.
just two cents
I wouldn't want one of these people working for me if I ran a large computer-centric firm. But then again, I don't want them using the handicapped spaces either. There has to be some intermediary. And where is gov't funding for voice recognition software? It is so close.
Life is the leading cause of death in America.
From the first line:
repetitive stress injuries have left her unable to use a computer keyboard.
Even the judge agreed:
Her inability to type and write for extended periods of time
How, prey tell, did you read this and come away with the impression that she was perfectly fine physically?
For the record, she was able to type, then couldn't. It wasn't a case of learning to type. Oh yes, and her employer looked into speech recognition software for her.
Other than that, spot on!
I guess there will be no more hunt and peck for me.
"Even the Devil can quote scripture to suit his purposes" - William Shakespeare
...these days everything that we would have consideredcommon sense just 10 years ago has to be clarified through the courts. What's next? Determining whether lunchtime starts at 12pm or a second after that?
I am Lord Snowbeam. Heed my call!
Understandable, and a very good point that us millisecond naysayers would do well to remember.
However, it's never beneficial to get too caught up in your hangups, no matter how tight the web. So you may transpose letters now and again (so do I; but for me it *is* dyslexia) -- at least you, me and other situational handicappers still have our ability to PROOFREAD.
Editing-free sig:
It woudl be a shaem for us to "get in the wya of oursleves" simply by being lazy or nto paying atteniton. Sara T.
Can we discriminate against them now? If so, then I need to learn how to type. As the saying goes: old hackers never die - they just learn to type.
Life is the leading cause of death in America.
The dissenter said "the majority's ruling ignores the reality that computers and the ability to type and write are essential skills in the modern world."
But, the person in question _could_ type and write - just not fast and not for extended periods of time. A small minority of jobs require being able to type or write extensively.
Many fat middle aged Americans can't walk or run either fast or for an extended period of time, but they don't get away with disability allowance for that.
-----
I don't want any of the people like this getting any more special privledges than they might already have.
My Webcomic: Asylum on 5th Street
for Taco. He was hoping claim a combination grammatical/typo handicap.
I don't think they wasted time with a jury here. That would have been a waste of my tax payer money and a refund would certainly be in order.
I am Lord Snowbeam. Heed my call!
Someone loses their ability to work in their profession and, for most, participate in their hobby/mental exercise/what-have-you then they are disabled. How does this not apply to typing? Unless someone wants to get me a nerve implant right to my brain/spinal cord, Ima fight that if anything happens to my hands to where I can't type.
.ph0x
---
ps -aux | grep mind
Where are the people who are against this decision...?
oh wait.
Okay! Via Voice it is!
-- I Am Not A Terrorist.
you lost your fingers at work through bad oh&s would you feel the same way?
In fact, the human body was not designed at all! It was evolved!
I was hoping to use this ruling to force the NBA to let me play, even though I can't run, jump, dribble, or shoot.
"He hated Mexicans, and he was half Mexican. AND he hated irony!"
if she learned to type and write with her feet? I've seen disabled people play arcade machines before with their feet. I suppose the keyboard would have to have larger keys so that the big toe doesn't hit 3 keys at once.
"0101100101? It's just jibberish. *looks in mirror, gasps* 1010011010@!? AHHHHHH!!"
Obviously the comments posted here will all be biased against the proposed new law. After all, you have to be able to type to post here, don't you? Most of the SlashDot readers type for a living anyway. That really limits those with an opposing view from being represented in this discussion.
Now imagine if one day you stopped being able to type... Its not impossible... Maybe you suffered nerve damage in your hands, or you lost a few fingers in a farming accident. There are lots of ways to gain this particular disability. You wouldn't be able to work, you wouldn't be able to play computer games, and you wouldn't be able to chat on IRC. Worst of all, you wouldn't be able to post comments about your plight on message boards like SlashDot that have no provisions for those suffering from this particular disability.
I've had friends who have suffered from repetitive motion disorders in the past from things like poorly organized work areas that require awkward movement and about all it took to put them back right after that was a little rest and some physical therapy (AKA a handful of exercises). Surely the woman mentioned in this story can't be suffering the same type of disorder, otherwise it's even farther from being a disability. Oh well, I tried
You don't get it, it's not emotional/mental stress, it's physical stress, the same thing that makes a stick break if you bend it enough. Typing for years on keyboards can cause Repetitive Stress Injury, this is where the repetitive nature of the task over long periods causes stress on the nerves, muscles, etc. in the hands wrists and arms.
RSI has also been seen in professions completely unrelated to computers, such as a person working in a factory doing the same thing for years, even a blacksmith making horseshoes for years could aquire RSI.
Unless employers are required to make reasonable accomodations for disabled employees, they will preferentially hire those with no disability. But many people with a minor disability can still be much more productive in their chosen profession than they would be doing some other work which their disability does not impact. By the government guaranteeing a level playing field (by prohibiting taking the disability into account, not by prohibiting choosing the person who is most qualified in all other regards, ignoring the disability), we allow people not to be blacklisted from their careers because of a disability that could be reasonably accomodated. Those who claim the free market will resolve this would say that the employee, who is less productive than employees without a disability, should be willing to work for less, but still earn more than they would outside their profession. But most large organizations have standard salary scales, and could not make special deals with everyone based on their perceived productivity. So the free market does not work in this case. People who liken the inability to type due to RSI to the inability to type due to laziness or stupidity are bad people. And the stupid should not be discriminated against either. Some people may have misunderstood the article - the employer provided some minimal accomodation (chairs, etc - these are just paying lip service to the need to prevent RSI), but refused to provide speech-to-text capability, saying it was an unreasonable accomodation. Or even worse, they claimed that the disability didn't fall under the ADA, and therefore they didn't even have to make reasonable accomodations.
Share. Until it becomes uncomfortable. Or at least a little.
Look, the purpose of ADA is to prevent people with disabilities from being discriminated against when the job they're applying for does not require the faculty they're disabled in. The purpose of the ADA is not to make it so that a blind person can get a job as a taxi-cab driver, or so that a deaf person can get a job as a translator, or so that a person with tendinitis can get/keep a job as a typist. I mean, come on, what's next -- are fat women going to try to sue a strip club, claiming discrimination, because the club won't hire them?
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
In some places, maybe. In others, people are still able to employ something called "judgement" and haven't been thoroughly convinced by the legal profession that they are unqualified to do so. The jury has no need to retire...
You are disabled if you have no fingers to type with......not if "stress" has rendered you "unable" to type. This is just a type W case (Whiner), if this woman can not type because she is "stressed" she should see a psychiatrist (or come to me and for ten dollars I beat her with a hammer for an hour and a half). Being unable to type or write IS a disablity, and you should be able to sue your employer if, let's say, something at work falls on you and shatters your hands, preventing you from typing, and then they fire you because you can't do your job. Just because some woman doesn't want to work anymore and has decided that she won't (oops I mean "can't") type doesn't mean she should be able to sue her employer when they fire her for not being "able" to work. This is like me claiming I'm to stressed to lift boxes at one my summer jobs (where I lift boxes....yeah it sucks when your 17) and then suing when they fire me. The fact that this woman is emotionally "sensitive" (read unstable) doesn't impress me, and if I was her boss I would have fired her after one week of this nonsense. If you can't handle the stress of your job it is not your employers responsibility to pay you for doing nothing, quit and become a garbage collector (not trying to inslt garbage collectors) or construction worker (again, not saying they have no stress) or some low-stress job where not much is expected of you (Microsoft Programmer, yes I am trying to insult Microsoft).
"
Second, with an RSI, it does not only prevent one from using a keyboard, but when severe, you have problems sleeping (from the pain), and eating (because you keep droping things), or shopping, because your hand strength goes to almost nothing.
You also have to keep in mind that the ADA analysis is a fact specific test that is done on a case by case basis. There are circuits that ruled in one case that CTS is a disability, and in another ruled that it was not. This does not say if they also considered the state disability laws - which have a different standard for disability.
Fight Spammers!
Consider, a blind person can dress him/herself, do laundry, make a bed, even shop in some cases. They cannot drive, of course, however they can get around by walking or bus. And in some cases, someone with carpal tunnel or similar may not be able to drive safely, as the pain it causes their wrists can be extreme.
There was one comment on slashdot recently about a man who owned a small computer company, who was completely blind, but walked around without a cane or any sort of guide, built, troubleshooted, took apart, added to, computers by touch, using brail or text-to-speech for interaction with the computers, etc.
However, if they had fired this reporter because she'd gone blind, she would likely have won without trouble.
Voice recognition is COMPLETELY viable, even in 1997 it was usable, esspecialy if the user had some use of their hands to allow for manual corrections when neccisary. All they would have had to do was spend a few hundred dollars on Dragon Naturally Speaking, and a few bucks on a microphone, and everything would have been fine.
Yes, and judges are so isolated from the real world thay can't seem to see that someone who has to type to earn a living and eat might be considered disabled.
;-)
This is the same government that until just recently delayed Medicare benefits for two (2) years to people dying of Lou Gehrig's Disease. Their prognosis meant that most would die before they were elegible for benefits.
Then again, if a judge lost his/her hearing and his/her sight, could he/she still be considered able to do his/her job, or would he/she be consdered disabled. Maybe they should hear THAT case before this same group of judges. (Trying to maintain political correctness here
What if I prove to them that no one ever taught me to type. Could I sue too? I am severely handicapped in my job search.
Those who would give up liberty in exchange for security and DRM should switch to Microsoft Palladium!
Okay, well the ADA doesn't apply if the person is a reporter, because presumibly a reporter has many other tasks than simply typing stuff into the computer (research etc.) and could concievably simply write longhand and get someone to copy it. Therefore inability to type is not a substantial limitation.
Now reading the decision this appears to be a very narrowly constructed decison. The court doesn't appear to make any statements about typing ability in general, only in the specific case of this specific reporter.
That would presumibly leave open avenues of pursuit for other professions, programmers -- typists (are there any of these anymore?), keypunch operators, stenographers and whatnot.
what about MCSE's?
I can't type, and I'm avery highly paid engineer!
Thinking is a whole lot mroe improtant then typing.
The 9th Circuit Court has ruled that not being able to type does not give one protection/privilege under the Americans with Disabilities Act(ADA).
Like so many people out these always looking for a free dollar, I'm sure that there are more pressing issues being decided, such as:
not having the skill to type vs. not being physically able to type.
I personally think its more fair if it was a physical disability, but even in that case - why should anyone claim any expenses for using a computer? Judging how social services continues to be abused by people with nothing better to do than surf the web all day, giving these people more privileges, gives them the wrong idea.
Check out the Nexes : telnet://nexesbbs.dynip.com - MajorMUD 60 player...
She complains in 1994, so the paper buys her special office furniture to help. A few years later she complains and they give her an extended leave to recouperate. A few years later she complains again and the paper decides that they can't do anything else to help her so they let her go.
This is discriminatory? It seems to me that they bent over backwards to help her do her work. About the only thing they didn't do is inject painkillers directly into her wrists.
What are they supposed to do? They publish newspapers and are not in the healthcare business. Staff writers that, after that much accomodation, can't write are a liability.
Perhaps they should have made her do weight training excercises to prevent this kind of injury. Weight training has been shown to increase bone density, muscle mass and tone, joint stability and more. Face it: the human body was not designed for desk work.
I do hope they ment terminating her employment, otherwise there's an entirely different matter at hand... can you say LOGAN'S RUN!?
I would have complete sympathy for someone who couldn't type because of PHYSICAL limitations, I think most people would. I have no sympathy for someone who can't type because of "stress". This woman did not suffer nerve damage, she suffered StupidLazyitus and decided the world should cater to her laziness. I know that if a programmer had his fingers cut off in an accident most employers would understand and get the VRS and most courts would award him the victory if he ended up getting fired for not being able to do his job. But if I was the boss and someone claimed not to be able to type for emotional reasons, I'd say "You have three days to either purchase and install your own VRS, get 'cured' by a psychiatrist or clean out your desk and get the hell out". It's nott hat we don't have sympathy for the disable, we just have no sympathy for pathetic whiners claiming BS disablities and thus undermining the real disabled people.
"