Yes, it's a shame that not everybody is a programmer. I'm not a programmer, does that mean I can't voice my
opinion on Freenet? Everyone has money (to varying amounts) they can donate to charity, but not everybody
knows enough C or Java or perl to contribute to an OSS project.
depending on the country you live in you can voice your opinion about anything you want. voicing your opinion about a problem is really pointless unless you are willing to do something about it.
you dont have to be a programmer to contribute to a oss project. you can contribute by:
submitting detailed bug reports
providing documentation
design a support
i believe the free software foundation takes donations.
to name a few.
The very fact that I, and others, criticise demonstrates that I, and we, are not apathetic to FreeNet.
critisism is easy. to truely demonstrate that you care file a bug report with a solution, volunteer to work on documentation... help the situation
If we were apathetic the whole issue would never have arisen. The fact that Mr. Clarke saw fit to post an article about the criticisms that his project has recieved demonstrates that he doesn't consider these opinions to be meaningless.
no he considers them to be incorrect-simular in a way to slandering the efforts of the developers.
You say that you feel FreeNet is developing fast enough for its current audience.
i think that rushing a project like this would do more harm than good. i believe it's current audience consists of the developers and the beta testers. i wouldnt expect much more at this level.
Such concerns often seem to be viewed as hostility against the project, but that is, I'm sure, not the case.
i believe there is a difference between constructive criticism/concerns and the berating that has been put upon freenet. i think you can see the difference between the two in the posts here.
my message is for those who would criticise and do nothing more. i have no problem with expressing your concern (not that it really matters what i have a problem with). if you are really concerned take an active role. it is a community, and a community is at it's best when the members work together.
true, but irc isn't on everybodys lips and it wasnt. my point is that you dont have to produce something that everyone in the world uses to achieve enough critical mass to get something accomplished. ICQ type popularity isn't necessary, and if they could get half of the people who currently use IRC they would have a sizeable userbase for their purposes.
I think freenet is developing at a rate fast enought for it's current audience. the developers have encouraged others to take part in the project. most people (includeing yourself) are more content to complain and criticize about the projects developement pace than do something to help the situation.
the fact that alot people as apathetic as yourself share your opinion is meaningless to the developers. it is the developers who will choose the pace of development. if you want to speed things up join the development team. if you want to reiterate an opinion shared by others feel free. i dont think the latter will help as much as the former, but that is, of course, my opinion.
Should I not criticise a footballer (soccer player) who misses an open goal because I do not play football?
if you criticise him constructively then that is cool-this would mean that your criticizm came with a solution. the neat thing about OSS is that you can actually:
get on the field and play
submit patches to the webmaster to make his html valid
the tools are there for you to become a programmer. the only excuse for not doing something is lazyness. if most people spent half if the time they spend bitching about OSS on learning to program they could spend the other half of the time fixing the bug they would normally complain about.
Pointing out/complaining about slow progress is raising an important issue that you are trying to hide
from. Obviously many other people feel the same way I do, otherwise Mr. Clarke's article, also this
Slashdot story, wouldn't exist.
analogy time extended
there was a time when a majority of the people in the southern us states thought black people should be slaves. does the fact that the majority thought this make it right? just because a mob of people believe something doesnt mean they are correct.
there are alot of people who think freenet is moving along nicely, and since they actually have working code it isnt vaporware. just beacuse a segment of the population doesn't find it useable, that doesn't mean it is vaporware.
No firewall or proxy?! So you gain in anonymity but lose in security? What happens when there is a
possible attack against someone after the key is found? You don't have their IP true, but that doesn't
mean you cannot attack them.
just run freenet _ON_ the firewall. i had to do that with the matlab license server so people outside of our network could use it.
oh i'm sorry could you point out where i said you couldn't have an opinion?
all i said is that your time would be better spent fixing the problem than complaining about it. that is of course my opionion... which does not negate yours. FreeNet dev. is slow.
im glad to see you have found a problem
I'm not involved in FreeNet dev.
it is a shame you do not want to do anything about the problem you so skillfully pointed out.
Those two facts do not cancel each other out.
i would only condsider the second point to be a fact. the first is what we call your opinion
All you need is a "freedom web site" where you
accept submissions from anyone and post them. Boom! You're done.
I don't know about this. Everytime you goto say/. apache writes down your ip address/the time you stopped by/and what you saw. If you are behind the great firewall o china it can do the same because it must translate the requests for you to get through. the same applies to carnivor (sp?). if it really exsists (a paranoia thing) then everytime you access slashdot they know. i dont know how freenet will attempt to get around this, but it is an important aspect of freenet.
i think you are correct here. i guess this is the case where you should kill the messenger. it's kinda sad-the journalists are the ones who hype up OSS projects, but later on they criticize the projects for not living up to the expectations that they themselves set.
there was a time (before my birth) when being a reporter/journalist was an art of sorts. now it's just a job. when there is nothing to report they create news-the smart ones create news they can report on later:)
Alot of the programs on sourceforge are worked on during spare time, and will take a while to get working if the only developer is the project admin. If there are nice ideas that you wish to see take off, contact the project leader and ask him where you can help. It's easy to complain about the problem, but it is much more satisfying to do something about it.
Most people post their projects on sourceforge because they are open to the idea of working with others and getting their input.
It is somewhat frustrating when people criticize Freenet's ease of use while failing to take
advantage of Freenet's primary means of tech-support, namely the volunteers subscribed
to the support mailing list who will frequently reply within minutes with the solution to most
problems.
did you post your question to the freenet mailing list? if not you probably should. they are the people who will be the most help.
While SourceForge provides a hell of a lot of nice ideas and schematics for some great tools, its sad
to see efforts aren't followed through on a lot of those great ideas.
it is funny you would type that on a message board system, that takes more hits a day than most hardcore hippies, and is also registered at sourceforge
It becomes massively overloaded.
It is harshly litigated against.
It fizzles.
freenet is addressing these. if they achieve the level of anonimity they are shooting for then litigation will be next to impossible. the distributed nature of freenet takes care fo the overload issue.
For Freenet to be really successful, it must have a critical mass of servers to store and distribute the
load. But this requires popularity, and Freenet is just not going to be that interesting to the average
person.
IRC is pretty popular, and it doesnt appeal much to the average person. If freenet can acheive half the popularity of irc it will do fine.
I understand Freenet's purpose, but I personally have zero interest in contributing. And I think
Freenet is going to find that there are lot less paranoids out there than they think. The fact is, strong
encryption and the WWW filfills 99.9% of Freenet's goals.
considering one of the primary goals of freenet is anonimity (sp?) id ont think that the www and encryption cover that.
Criticizing an Open Source project for their level of progress is akin to criticizing someone
else for not giving enough to charity, while giving none yourself.
There are alot of people jumping on the open source bandwagon who are wanting something of quality, that is free and they want it quickly. you can can always get two of the three, but which do you settle for. this applies to those who would criticize slow release times. the source is there if you want it quicker please spend your effort contributing and not complaining.
i didnt realize this until i got further down in the comments. i really think the editors should get in touch with the owners of web sites before posting. reguardless of who submitted the story, ultimately the responsability is theirs. it's almost like they are insighting a riot, or guideing an army of deaf mutes. i know when i read the article i thought "cool i want to check this out."
if he didnt want the rest of the world to see it he should have password protected it. i agree it would be nice if the folks at/. would at least warn people before posting their site. i wouldnt balme the person who submitted it, but rather the editor who posted it. i can understand that the editors didnt expect the result of/. posting a url the first few times, but hell we have a name for it now (/. effect). so hemos cannot claim ignorace.
you will have to ask him to send you the cgi's. you wont be able to get them with wget or whatever. the webserver processes them then spits out the output-it doesnt send you the code.
i believe he was refering to the fact that it fell so soon. saying that most machines fall to the/. effect is pretty pointless. there is a difference between jumping up and down on a cockroach and a rabid ferret. the ferret will put up a fight and will probably loose in the end, the cockroach will loose pretty quickly. what he was suggesting is that the scripting engine turned the ferret into a cockroach.
since we dont know the server specks we cannot make any comments too quickly, but this one went down pretty fast, and his question is an important one. the server is still serving the static pages-it's just the dynamic ones it is failing on.
fwiw: i dont think he was trying to _prove_ any thing (including SHIT)
i like hip-hop and the british derivative/alternate triphop (eg massive attack, tricky, portishead).
really though to say "i only like x type of music" is silly. you are really restricing yourself. along with hip/hop i listen to alot of other stuff from johnny cash to deadkennedys to classical to indian pujabi. it really depends on my mood.
when i was clintons age i really only listened to punk though (black flag, dk, misfits, crucifucks, etc.) it was what i realted to the most. since then i have become less 13373 (or however it's spelled) and more open minded.
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Re:think about the future of our inflated economy.
on
CS vs CIS
·
· Score: 1
i'm not trying to threaten incoming people-i'm just saying that he should look at the future when considering employment and education. if this person were to just consider starting salery, then he would be better off not going to college. he could make about the same amount of money going to an IT school for a year or so. i feel this decision shows lack of forsight.
i honestly i think a programmer would be better prepared with a cs or ce degree than with a cis degree. cs and ce focus more on analytical problems solving, and (sadly for some) that requires alot of math. i'm in the same boat as you-i'm still in school because i like math.
you are right, you will be hired/fired/laidoff based on your ability to do the job. i feel that your ability to do the job depends on your edcuation, and that a person with a cs degree will be better prepared than a cis.
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Re:They will lay off the worse workers!
on
CS vs CIS
·
· Score: 1
None of this has anything to do with your degree, which will look less important each year you are out of school.
I took Economics and Chinese because I found them interesting and challenging, and have done very well in
the technology job market.
you must have misunderstood when i said that under the current economy the job market hasn't yet reached it's saturation level. ie. right now you can get an IT job with a history degree. if the economy takes a downturn this will not be the case.
you are correct, they will look at your work preformance before they decide who to can. if it comes down to a cs vs a cis they will take the cis i am afraid. just my opinoion though.
CS vs CIS - i would take the CS. he has demonstrated that he can work harder. I would take a CE over the CS, but that is just my bias towards engineers.
Slashdot Mirror
depending on the country you live in you can voice your opinion about anything you want. voicing your opinion about a problem is really pointless unless you are willing to do something about it. you dont have to be a programmer to contribute to a oss project. you can contribute by:
submitting detailed bug reports
providing documentation
design a support
i believe the free software foundation takes donations.
to name a few.
use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
The very fact that I, and others, criticise demonstrates that I, and we, are not apathetic to FreeNet.
critisism is easy. to truely demonstrate that you care file a bug report with a solution, volunteer to work on documentation... help the situation
If we were apathetic the whole issue would never have arisen. The fact that Mr. Clarke saw fit to post an article about the criticisms that his project has recieved demonstrates that he doesn't consider these opinions to be meaningless.
no he considers them to be incorrect-simular in a way to slandering the efforts of the developers.
You say that you feel FreeNet is developing fast enough for its current audience.
i think that rushing a project like this would do more harm than good. i believe it's current audience consists of the developers and the beta testers. i wouldnt expect much more at this level.
Such concerns often seem to be viewed as hostility against the project, but that is, I'm sure, not the case. i believe there is a difference between constructive criticism/concerns and the berating that has been put upon freenet. i think you can see the difference between the two in the posts here.
my message is for those who would criticise and do nothing more. i have no problem with expressing your concern (not that it really matters what i have a problem with). if you are really concerned take an active role. it is a community, and a community is at it's best when the members work together.
use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
true, but irc isn't on everybodys lips and it wasnt. my point is that you dont have to produce something that everyone in the world uses to achieve enough critical mass to get something accomplished. ICQ type popularity isn't necessary, and if they could get half of the people who currently use IRC they would have a sizeable userbase for their purposes.
use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
I think freenet is developing at a rate fast enought for it's current audience. the developers have encouraged others to take part in the project. most people (includeing yourself) are more content to complain and criticize about the projects developement pace than do something to help the situation.
the fact that alot people as apathetic as yourself share your opinion is meaningless to the developers. it is the developers who will choose the pace of development. if you want to speed things up join the development team. if you want to reiterate an opinion shared by others feel free. i dont think the latter will help as much as the former, but that is, of course, my opinion.
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if you criticise him constructively then that is cool-this would mean that your criticizm came with a solution. the neat thing about OSS is that you can actually:
get on the field and play
submit patches to the webmaster to make his html valid
the tools are there for you to become a programmer. the only excuse for not doing something is lazyness. if most people spent half if the time they spend bitching about OSS on learning to program they could spend the other half of the time fixing the bug they would normally complain about.
Pointing out/complaining about slow progress is raising an important issue that you are trying to hide from. Obviously many other people feel the same way I do, otherwise Mr. Clarke's article, also this Slashdot story, wouldn't exist.
analogy time extended
there was a time when a majority of the people in the southern us states thought black people should be slaves. does the fact that the majority thought this make it right? just because a mob of people believe something doesnt mean they are correct.
there are alot of people who think freenet is moving along nicely, and since they actually have working code it isnt vaporware. just beacuse a segment of the population doesn't find it useable, that doesn't mean it is vaporware.
use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
No firewall or proxy?! So you gain in anonymity but lose in security? What happens when there is a possible attack against someone after the key is found? You don't have their IP true, but that doesn't mean you cannot attack them.
just run freenet _ON_ the firewall. i had to do that with the matlab license server so people outside of our network could use it.
use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
oh i'm sorry could you point out where i said you couldn't have an opinion?
all i said is that your time would be better spent fixing the problem than complaining about it. that is of course my opionion... which does not negate yours.
FreeNet dev. is slow.
im glad to see you have found a problem
I'm not involved in FreeNet dev.
it is a shame you do not want to do anything about the problem you so skillfully pointed out.
Those two facts do not cancel each other out.
i would only condsider the second point to be a fact. the first is what we call your opinion
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All you need is a "freedom web site" where you accept submissions from anyone and post them. Boom! You're done.
/. apache writes down your ip address/the time you stopped by/and what you saw. If you are behind the great firewall o china it can do the same because it must translate the requests for you to get through. the same applies to carnivor (sp?). if it really exsists (a paranoia thing) then everytime you access slashdot they know. i dont know how freenet will attempt to get around this, but it is an important aspect of freenet.
I don't know about this. Everytime you goto say
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i think you are correct here. i guess this is the case where you should kill the messenger. it's kinda sad-the journalists are the ones who hype up OSS projects, but later on they criticize the projects for not living up to the expectations that they themselves set.
:)
there was a time (before my birth) when being a reporter/journalist was an art of sorts. now it's just a job. when there is nothing to report they create news-the smart ones create news they can report on later
use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
Alot of the programs on sourceforge are worked on during spare time, and will take a while to get working if the only developer is the project admin. If there are nice ideas that you wish to see take off, contact the project leader and ask him where you can help. It's easy to complain about the problem, but it is much more satisfying to do something about it.
Most people post their projects on sourceforge because they are open to the idea of working with others and getting their input.
use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
It is somewhat frustrating when people criticize Freenet's ease of use while failing to take advantage of Freenet's primary means of tech-support, namely the volunteers subscribed to the support mailing list who will frequently reply within minutes with the solution to most problems.
did you post your question to the freenet mailing list? if not you probably should. they are the people who will be the most help.
use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
While SourceForge provides a hell of a lot of nice ideas and schematics for some great tools, its sad to see efforts aren't followed through on a lot of those great ideas.
it is funny you would type that on a message board system, that takes more hits a day than most hardcore hippies, and is also registered at sourceforge
http://sourceforge.net/projects/slashcode/
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It becomes massively overloaded. It is harshly litigated against. It fizzles. freenet is addressing these. if they achieve the level of anonimity they are shooting for then litigation will be next to impossible. the distributed nature of freenet takes care fo the overload issue.
use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
For Freenet to be really successful, it must have a critical mass of servers to store and distribute the load. But this requires popularity, and Freenet is just not going to be that interesting to the average person.
IRC is pretty popular, and it doesnt appeal much to the average person. If freenet can acheive half the popularity of irc it will do fine.
I understand Freenet's purpose, but I personally have zero interest in contributing. And I think Freenet is going to find that there are lot less paranoids out there than they think. The fact is, strong encryption and the WWW filfills 99.9% of Freenet's goals.
considering one of the primary goals of freenet is anonimity (sp?) id ont think that the www and encryption cover that.
use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
Criticizing an Open Source project for their level of progress is akin to criticizing someone else for not giving enough to charity, while giving none yourself.
There are alot of people jumping on the open source bandwagon who are wanting something of quality, that is free and they want it quickly. you can can always get two of the three, but which do you settle for. this applies to those who would criticize slow release times. the source is there if you want it quicker please spend your effort contributing and not complaining.
i personally prefer free and high quality.
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i didnt realize this until i got further down in the comments. i really think the editors should get in touch with the owners of web sites before posting. reguardless of who submitted the story, ultimately the responsability is theirs. it's almost like they are insighting a riot, or guideing an army of deaf mutes. i know when i read the article i thought "cool i want to check this out."
use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
password
/. would at least warn people before posting their site. i wouldnt balme the person who submitted it, but rather the editor who posted it. i can understand that the editors didnt expect the result of /. posting a url the first few times, but hell we have a name for it now (/. effect). so hemos cannot claim ignorace.
if he didnt want the rest of the world to see it he should have password protected it. i agree it would be nice if the folks at
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your replying to a troll's racist comment? that was pretty fsck'ed up.
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you will have to ask him to send you the cgi's. you wont be able to get them with wget or whatever. the webserver processes them then spits out the output-it doesnt send you the code.
use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
i believe he was refering to the fact that it fell so soon. saying that most machines fall to the /. effect is pretty pointless. there is a difference between jumping up and down on a cockroach and a rabid ferret. the ferret will put up a fight and will probably loose in the end, the cockroach will loose pretty quickly. what he was suggesting is that the scripting engine turned the ferret into a cockroach.
since we dont know the server specks we cannot make any comments too quickly, but this one went down pretty fast, and his question is an important one. the server is still serving the static pages-it's just the dynamic ones it is failing on.
fwiw: i dont think he was trying to _prove_ any thing (including SHIT)
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thats cool. if you need help with unixpunx.org drop me an email. john
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i like hip-hop and the british derivative/alternate triphop (eg massive attack, tricky, portishead).
really though to say "i only like x type of music" is silly. you are really restricing yourself. along with hip/hop i listen to alot of other stuff from johnny cash to deadkennedys to classical to indian pujabi. it really depends on my mood.
when i was clintons age i really only listened to punk though (black flag, dk, misfits, crucifucks, etc.) it was what i realted to the most. since then i have become less 13373 (or however it's spelled) and more open minded.
use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
i'm not trying to threaten incoming people-i'm just saying that he should look at the future when considering employment and education. if this person were to just consider starting salery, then he would be better off not going to college. he could make about the same amount of money going to an IT school for a year or so. i feel this decision shows lack of forsight.
i honestly i think a programmer would be better prepared with a cs or ce degree than with a cis degree. cs and ce focus more on analytical problems solving, and (sadly for some) that requires alot of math. i'm in the same boat as you-i'm still in school because i like math.
you are right, you will be hired/fired/laidoff based on your ability to do the job. i feel that your ability to do the job depends on your edcuation, and that a person with a cs degree will be better prepared than a cis.
use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
None of this has anything to do with your degree, which will look less important each year you are out of school. I took Economics and Chinese because I found them interesting and challenging, and have done very well in the technology job market.
you must have misunderstood when i said that under the current economy the job market hasn't yet reached it's saturation level. ie. right now you can get an IT job with a history degree. if the economy takes a downturn this will not be the case.
you are correct, they will look at your work preformance before they decide who to can. if it comes down to a cs vs a cis they will take the cis i am afraid. just my opinoion though.
CS vs CIS - i would take the CS. he has demonstrated that he can work harder. I would take a CE over the CS, but that is just my bias towards engineers.
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whats your opinon of aduva?
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