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CS vs CIS
falco writes "I'm just about to enter my softmore year in computer science and I have begun to question myself about my decision to become a computer scientist. I have been told by alot of graduates that CIS and CS majors are being hired for the same job for the same money. Is this true? Can anyone clear up any misconceptions and truths about this issue? If the previous is false, what are the differences in jobs that a CS major would receive compared to a CIS major? As I'm sure many of you know computer science is more difficult by a factor of 10. I've been questioning whether it's worth wracking my brain with all the math in the CS major. Help and advice would be appreciated."
I have degree in Math and CS from University of Nebraska. In my experience, guys with CS degrees end up designing and writing programs, if the wanted do, or they ended up as SysAdmins. The truely outstanding MIS people ended up as SysAdmins, DBAs or ended up managing the rest of the MIS crew. The rest of the MIS guys ended up fixing email clients, configuring new machines. Running cable, deploying new software that the CS guys wrote. Or are operational guys that monitor systems while the SysAdmin is at home sleeping.
In the end, I believe the CIS guys made less money, primarly due to fewer responsibilities, and a lot of the ones I knew lacked a degree, which didn't help.
Figure out what it is you want to do, and pick the appropriate major. I have no idea how many CS Majors I know that said they hated programming. They shouldn't be CS majors. I hate trouble shooting shrinkwrapped software for bugs, or attempting to get 3 incompatible pieces of hardware to work in a box. Hence, I shouldn't be an MIS guy. Don't forget to consider that what you really want is to study marine biology, which of course neither CS or CIS will do.
Lol...My new hobby while reading slashdot is to read comments which seem authorative and try to determine if the person is just making it up. This comment seems to be posted by a college age or older person. Then i noticed that he can't even spell "algorithms". I'm not much of a speller, but the word "algorithms" appears so much, that how could any comp sci major not know how to spell it? Due to this, I have determined that the posters is actually a 15-16 highschool student. Am I correct?
idiots, obviously. although it is vital for a manager to "understand" what it is he is managing, he does not need identical experience to his managees. not to mention the fact that what is taught in a CS degree loses currency within 3 years, whereas management techniques change at a snails pace.
I started off in CS at one of the top polytechics in the country and left due to personal reasons (academics had nothing to do with it). What I learned is the timeless stuff. Dijkstra. Hamilton. Et al. This stuff is fundamental and immutable. When i left, I resumed my studies in IS because the school in my hometown doesn't have a CS department. What I learned was the latest business paradigm of the week. The business courses (which comprised 75% of the curriculum) were vacuous and empty. CS is more rigorous, but much more fruitful in the long run. Don't give up.
The important things are, in order:
1. What you know.
This isn't stuff you learn in class - learn it on your own. Languages, design principles, technical details, and a deep understanding of the technology.
2. That you have some sort of degree.
Get a degree in Sports Physiology for all it matters, assuming you know your shit and can demonstrate this knowledge to your employer.
I think that's a bunch of crap. At my school, The University of Missouri-Rolla, my roommate got hired by Microsoft and is a pure computer science major. Also, my sister who is in HR for AMDOCS told me that companies are looking hard for pure CS majors, and that they are hard to find. High in demand = high pay. I am a CS major on my third year, and don't regret any of the math or theory I have learned. By learning theory you earn the ability to apply what you've learned to any language. Also, you achieve the ability to analyze and improve on pre-exhisting structure. If you just want a job you can goto a tech school and get your Associates degree. That way you'll be stuck in the same position until you get more education. If you put forth hard effort and take all the math and theory, you learn the fundamentals required to move up and beyond just coding and project leading or even higher CS related positions. I don't know much about CIS degrees, but I can't see them being that great, even if you do start at the same pay. You just don't seem to get as much knowledge as you would in CS degree. And btw, CE = Civil Engineering if your any school who is both Engineering/CS as its main departments. CompE is Computer Engineering, dunno if that is confusing anyone else.
I've tried both sides (software engineering at a big company and professor of IS in a business school) and can honestly say that both degrees have their merits. It all depends on what you want after school. Either degree can prepare you for a good life, but only if you're well suited to it. Fortunately, though, even if you make the wrong choice you can still go back and try the other one. The CS degree will give you the analytical skills needed to pick up just about any technology quickly. If you are "into" the technology, then stay with the CS degree. Then, if in 5 years or so you find yourself in some sort of management position, you might want to get an MBA or Management of Technology (MoT) degree. The MIS degree is intended for people who like to work on business applications of the technologies more than with the technologies themselves. Instead of spending so much time programming, an MIS graduate should be working on the "business logic" behind the applications. Often, this means understanding how the business works, what information people actually use, etc. If after several years of working in MIS you find yourself missing the nitty-gritty of a good engineering project, then go back and get an MS in Software Engineering. There is a ready market for both degrees. Don't worry too much about salaries and whatnot. Instead, ask yourself what you want to be doing for 35-60 hours per week for the next few years.
Personally, I'm double majoring in Computer Science and Computer & Systems Engineering w/ a minor in Information Technology. The CS/CSYS double will enable me to work with both parts of the computer - software and hardware. I'm only required to take 4 courses for the minor in Information Technology, including one entitled "IT Revolution." I plan on taking Managing Resources and other backend business/management type courses so I can relate to the CEOs when I eventually get a job.
I do agree with the sentiments of some of the other posters here that CIS seems like a wussy way of getting a degree. I say stick with the CS major. A CS major can do everything a CIS major can do, and then some...if you're paying for an education, why pay the same to only get less of an education? I'm sure most of the courses overlap - a double major, or even a minor shouldn't be hard to put together...
>(Of course, that may be because they're crippled by
:) It's the one
:)
:) Not that I'm biased . . .
>having to learn FORTRAN. B-)
Ahem. God wrote the world in Fortran, thank you
true language, and will be in use long past the time when
c, perl, and emacs go the way of vacuum tubes (ok, so we can't
predict what it will look like, or how it will work, but we know
it will be called "Fortran"
>Now, taking some classes in engineering or physics on top of a CS
>degree is good exercise for the mind. I actually tried to do a double
>degree in CS and physics,
Ahh, now *there*'s a real degree, and a little CS on the side for
entertainment
...if you don't put time into what you do.
i just finished my degree in computer engineering, and very little of what i learned after my sophomore year was in class. if you're not willing to put the work in to learn stuff on your own, than neither degree is going to do you any good. a good CS program (or CIS i imagine) is going to be pretty heavy in theory. if you don't take this stuff and play around with it on your own and get into it outside of class, then you shouldn't be in college. just go to a trade school or something and get an mcse or oracle certifiactaion or whatever.
personally, i think if you think you can handle the math, i would do the cs. there is some personal reward, i think, for getting through the harder classes. as i mentioned earlier, i just graduated with a computer engineering degree, and although i tended to do poorly in my electrical engineering classes (the biggest difference between cs and cpe at our school) i'm glad i took them, and i don't regret the extra work, or the hit in my gpa that i took to get through them.
If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
I was interested in CS. If you're not interested in CS by all means do something else.
If you're going to school just to get a job, I'd say you made a pretty poor decision to attend college. I know many self-taught programmers and IS people who make just as much, or more, money than those that went to college. Why? Because they got a head start in the industry.
Schooling should be for your own personal growth and enjoyment, not because of an extra zero at the end of your paycheck. This is not to say the extra zero isn't nice, just that it is a fringe benefit to knowledge.
When people ask me, an IS guy turned software engineer, why I'm majoring in Philosophy with a minor in Latin, I tell them I'm going to school for me. Not for the Man.
-l
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It'll teach you how to think better. CIS (what I do) is primarily about making other people's systems work in the real world. CS is about inventing new systems from scratch.
Both have their upsides, but a CS degree should qualify you for an entry-level CIS job. The reverse is not true.
In my experience, CIS people ofetn ARE the students who couldn't make it in CS. Employers know this.
That said, there are posistions where a CIS grad might be better suited; a lot of contract software development is figuring out the customers business processes...
Not so much a sig as a lack of one.
Or better yet, try Computer Science and Engineering - I wish I had the link someone gave me a few years ago listing all the doubly accredited schools that had full-fledged CSE programs, but I know there's a handful of schools that do it. Try and find a school that does just CSE or that's their primary focus and it's not just some add-on degree plan for their CS or EE degree. Basically, CSE is a mix of CS, CE, EE and general engineering. It's VERY difficult, but you get the skills to do just about anything and everything in the computer world and learn a lot about engineering prinicples. I'm in the CSE program at UTA - I'm in the middle of my 2nd year and I've already had CSE classes, EE classes, IE classes, physics classes, insane amounts of math classes...pretty much the same grounding in engineering that AE's, ME's and EE's have to get. It's difficult, but here it the Metroplex not only do CSE's tend to get great jobs, the starting pay is good too since your engineering skills make you an asset because you can move further up the ladder into software engineering and technical team leadership.
Yes, it's "prospective," and I omitted "turn" in the first sentence of the second paragraph as well. Oh well, I never claimed to be an _intelligent_ person. =P
I'm a senior CS/English double major (minoring in the equivalent of CIS) who has struggled above and beyond the required maths (just for kicks or something insane like that), and I have to caution you that it's really experience and not the degree that counts. With either degree (C(I)S), make sure you have a firm understanding of the basics: data structures, algorithms, architectures, languages, and software engineering. Additionally, I urge you to investigate fully networking, encryption and security, and the oh-so-shifty world of open source programming (yes, open source and not necessarily Free Software(tm)): get involved in various projects, test alpha/beta/gamma versions, etc. Try to get an internship in your field(s) of interest; that's where you'll pick up invaluable experience.
I doubt a perspective employer would truly you down if you were quite experienced and had strength to back it academically, but as stated here in the forum, no amount of academic pounding on your brain can really affect you as much as one hour of work in the "real world."
So does a major in any science like Chemistry, Biology, Geology. Some of the best software engineers I know were trained (earned a degree) in Biology, Physics, or Geology. My hypothesis is that the scientific method fits well into computer problem-solving.
"Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life."
"You're gonna need a bigger boat." - Chief Brody
Is this why so many people cannot form complete sentences, particularly when writing? The grammar of most of my CS colleagues is terrible. Often they cannot spell simple words. Take these same CS grads and ask them to write a design document. The result is a document that is virtually useless because it is written so poorly. Then consider what a well-rounded education may cost in later work.
IMHO, there is no excuse for mastering the grammar of your native tongue, particularly if you earned your college degree.
"Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life."
"You're gonna need a bigger boat." - Chief Brody
We did in all that stuff of course too in my data algorithm analysis class, we just used c/c++ for it. Used ASM in another class, pascal in another, prolog in my AI class, etc. It's just about the tools for the job. Sorry I didn't mention every single thing about my education, I could type in my class listing if you wish. :) Actually no, I can't, I'm too lazy for that. They always say a lazy programmer is an efficient programmer, right? :)
---
What is taught in a CS degree loses currency within 3 years?! What kinda of crack job school did you go to that taught you crap that would be obsolete in 3 years? I went to Ohio Univ and stuck it through their CS program and got a BS. So I guess I can only speak for their school and what they teach. I learned a lot of C/C++, really basic OS stuff, teamwork, a solid math background, a good understanding of databases, and basically how to solve problems and teach myself things when need be. When I got out of school I started as a php/mysql programmer (what I've been doing for close to 2 years now). I was able to dive into php/mysql and write my first page the day I started on the job, keep in mind that I had NEVER even seen php code before that day. Why? Well php is very C like in it's structure, so it was just a matter of looking at examples here and looking up some function calls. All the looping mechanisms and everything are pretty much the same.
I'm constanty doing new things here and I don't see my knowlege of the real world fading in 1 year, not even close. So unless C/C++ and that whole line of programming thinking is going to change in 1 year, then ya, you may be right.
So there ya go, I think that's a pretty good description of CS, as for CIS, I'll let someone who majored in that to tell their story. Personally I knew CIS wasn't for me. I'm more of a get your hands dirty type person.
---
If you just want to build stuff with existing tools, CIS is probably the way to go. If you want to build the tools and/or full-blown from-scratch software, do CS.
As a matter of fact, I've seen MANY EE/CE majors (who had A/B averages) drop out of EE and switch their major to CS because they found out that they loved programming more than designing electronic circuits.
I agree wholeheartedly. I also know several people who have done this, and have determined that it most likely happens when they take that first requisite CS course. I was almost one of them, except I actually started out as a double major, because I couldn't decide which way to go. So, Spring Quarter of my Senior year rolls around and all I've got left is 2 credits worth of EE Senior Design Lab. Of course, I also got myself a severe case of the "aw, f*ck it's", commonly referred to in high school as "senioritis" or the "senior slide". about the same time. The only reason I even finished the degree was to avoid throwing away the nearly 4 years of work I'd put into the courses for it. Unfortunately, there are quite a few people who are of the mindset that people change from EE to CS because they can't handle it, and that simply isn't the case for a large portion of that population.
I know you didn't ask, but cs/cis/no degree people
can all make the same amount depending on who is
doing the hiring. The up side is you can start
making money right now, and if you keep at it
your resume will speak for itself. Some people
place work experience above degrees.
The downside isn't so much of a downside. Just
like in school, you need to discipline yourself
to keep learning your art.
Getting a computer job these days without a degree
isn't particularly difficult. Depending on your
luck you might have to do some time in a floundering dotcom for peanuts, but the next job
will be better; your resume will have more buzzwords.
You can always get certified on the way, too, and
that way you can focus yourself very precisely on
the sorts of things you want to do.
Of course, this path isn't good for all things. There are some jobs that really do require a degree, but since you are considering CIS, and
talking money, it doesn't sound like those are
the sorts of positions you are looking at.
I should further qualify my remarks by saying I
am an American, and this approach may not work as
well elsewhere. In any American tech center though, I think you will find this approach to
be valid, however.
That didn't fly, thank goodness.
Basically, pose these thoughts:
1. Can someone with a BSCIS get a MSCS? At most schools you won't have the pre-reqs.
2. Can someone with a BSCS get an MIS? Dude, you'd know more math than the prof, and you'll probably be bored...
What about MBA? CIS is usually a branch of business. If you want to get an MBA at a well-respected school for MBA-ness, they don't care what your BS is in, they want you to have a couple years' experience in the real world. So you could get the CIS and pay for things you'll probably have to learn later anyway.
But the part that irks me the MOST, that really PISSES ME OFF when I have to work with people, are computer people with the "I don't program" problem. Sys admins, web masters, DBAs, network/router admins... who have NO IDEA how to automate some of the stuff they do everyFREAKINGday. Configging routers, maintaining users, scripted backups, whatever.
It's a set of problem-solving skills that don't get developed while you're taking classes on how to write memos (i swear my roommate had a class like that) or paying to take your certification exams.
Being able to program is a powertool while everyone else is using rocks and sticks.
CS doesn't mean you're going down the road of "building nice big software". It means you use the computer as a tool and a means to make your own tools.
You want a minor? Take some communications classes. That'll open some eyes...
--mandi
Currently I am going for my Math Major with a minor in computer science. The biggest difference I find between CS/CIS is how deep you get into computer science CS you take assembly CIS it is an elective. CIS you take software engineering CS it is an elective. CS you take os design CIS it is an elective. CIS you only take VB and one C++ class. CS you take VB and two C++ class and concepts of programming languages. So it really depends on your interest and how deep you want to get into how computers work.
A programmer can have all the math in the world,
but if he doesn't have a solid background in business, he isn't going to write good business
software. Without understanding finance and accounting principles, how can one create systems that implement these principles? Sure, you can follow requirements, but then you're not among the people who create the requirements and business rules.
On the other hand, I don't suppose a Finance or Marketing major is going to acquire the skills to turn out a 3-D game engine or an embedded process control system, so it works both ways.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
CS is:
brain teasers
logic problems
algorithms (linear and parallel)
complexity theory
language design
data structures
OS design
cache coherence
research oriented (at least where I went)
CS isn't:
HOWTO program
3733T haXorZ
OS holy-wars
I'm glad I got my theory-oriented CS degree at the U of Rochester - I coded up a quick subroutine trace program in Perl (a language I taught myself easily, since language design was studied) in about 2 hours using a pseudo-tree structure (implemented with a hash of hashes) and depth-first traversal. As soon as I was given the problem the solution was easy, since I'd studied the concepts behind it in school.
My job is as a technical trainer, so it isn't CS related directly, but the concepts come up all of the time.
CIS means you waste your life rebooting windows machines for people.
CS means you can be a good programmer.
Not saying CIS people can't learn how computers really work or how to program. It's just a lot less likely.
And those going after CS just for the money really annoy me. My cousin was just telling me the other day that his school counselor told him he should go into computers, not due to any particular ability, just because the money is good.
So I told him he should actually take a programming course and see if he enjoys it.
I think a lot of people miss the point that programmers are programmers primarily by nature, not nurture.
Our sci-fi-loving/math/problem-solving brains our just wired differently.
--
I agree that you'd need to be a genius to pick up this sort of stuff (intellectual discipline) on your own though (and as you say, most of the CIS dolts who struggled through college algebra aren't up to it)
I'd have to agree with this. I've seen math articles published in CS journals and vice versa. BTW, I consider the book "Intro to algorithms" by Cormen et al to be a math book. I mean, it's a book of theorems and proofs. There is a fair bit of overlap between what "mathematicians" and "computer scientists" do. Of course, one could argue that all the computer science literature is a sort of mathematics; I don't see substantial differences.
Unless you're spending the entire degree memorising MFC, your knowledge will not be obsolete for a long time.
Excuse me ? Math is about solving problems, real world or not. The problems I solve have no obvious (and probably no non-obvious) relevance to "real world" problems.
A degree in a very theoretical course such as math/physics tends to make the harder CS material a tad easier to absorb, because you get exposed to abstractions (in fact you see things like automata, algorithms and Turing machines, though the way you approach them is quite different)
I didn't do a maths degree. I tried to avoid the maths elements of the degree I did take. I also didn't take a CS, CIS or CanythingS degree - I did Accounting.
Yet, somehow, I'm better at writing programs than most CS grads I've come across. And I have also never needed anything more than arithmetic (well, other than my first job, but that was writing portfolio management software with share price analysis features).
People who only recruit CS grads are definitely losing out bigtime in terms of the diversity and ability of their workforce. On my team at the moment at work are me (Accounting), a guy who doesn't have a degree (one of the best programmers I've ever come across), an electrical engineer (very capable programmer), a cambridge chemistry grad (who doesn't even like programming, just happens to be good at it) and a guy that used to be a tax lawyer.
I would back my team to go up against the average team of CS grads (with similar industry experience) and write software that meets client needs better than them.
Why is this? Because we have the necessary skills in programming and engineering, and we also have a diverse background that allows us to go beyond the technicalities of the job - we could run our business if we were needed to, we just happen to be concentrating on delivering IT solutions instead.
Hey, I'm ranting. Sorry.
~Cederic
I am horrible at math, and have been considering changing majors. I am currently doing Computer Engineering at Florida Institute of Technology, and have been fiddling with the idea of changing to CS. All of my friends tell me to go CS, I know cs, I breath cs... but my academic advisor pointed something out to me, even if I switch.. sure I may pass the CS courses even if I would've failed the EE/ECE courses, but I still will fail math. Only change if you cannot do the courses related to your major, otherwise you will still get hung up on math.
:)
Of course, CIS has much less math then CS or ECE/EE but if you cannot pass Calc1/Calc2 you will have no chance of making it though the school. My suggestion is to take the hard math courses at a community college where it will be cheaper, the grade after the transfer is irrelevent, and will probally be much easier. This is what I'll do
It's very difficult to learn "hard" theory on your own (in any field). Without experience at doing proofs, etc, you have almost no chance of understanding anything. The key to learning is self-exploration, but you need a guide, a la the Moore/Texas method.
At first when I saw this headline I thought the article was about whether to call Compuserve CS (CompuServe) or CIS (Compuserve Information System), which is what it used to be called.
Switch the . and the @ to email me.
Could you please form a coherent sentence?
I agree with that - I beleive I made a similar statement elsewhere in this discussion. There is a segment of folks arguing here, though, who are taking the position that only CS majors are capable of doing either - learning the current state of the art or advancing the state of the art; and that CIS majors and their kin should be relegated to rebooting servers and the like.
I think that the average CS cirriculum is put together with the expectation that a CS undergrad will eventually, if not immediately, go on to get a masters or doctorate. They tend to be theory-heavy, and have little or no real-world knowledge or experience. Just as an example: ask a CS grad how to normalize a database schema, then ask them when not to. You'll almost always get an answer to the first question, and a blank stare with the second, because they've been taught that normalized databases are right.
Several CS majors have talked about "Because of my CS background, it was so much easier to understand/learn X..." - without ackowledging that, every day, people without CS backgrounds come to learn or usderstand the same thing. Maybe the CS background does make it marginally easier; on the other hand, I'm a voracious reader, and I've never noticed my lack of a formal CS education slowing me down significantly.
"Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgement." Job 32:9
Agreed. At some point, it may become essential to get a CS/CIS degree before you can work as a developer... for now, though, and for the forseeable future, it truly doesn't matter what your degree was in, as long as you can demonstrate the neccesary skills.
I got my B.S. in metallurgical engineering; I work with another metallurgist (QA lead), a machinist who taught himself Perl and C (another QA lead), a UI designer who got his M.S. in anthropology... while there are certainly more folks here with a CS background than not, you would be hard pressed to find another technical field where lack of an undergraduate degree in the field was not an absolute barrier to entry.
"Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgement." Job 32:9
Is softmore the new term if you are studying CS? Things sure have changed since I went to college.
I think people with CS degrees look down upon people with CIS/MIS (especially MIS) degrees. I also think they have a reason too, its not as intensive, not as technical.. Its basically the easy way out if you don't like math/heavy theory and programming.. You know, all the good stuff. Go for CS.
There are many reasons to prefer CS to CIS.
i'd actually be careful with such sweeping judgements. some schools (for example NWU) make their CS and CIS the same, so you end up taking the same classes and getting the same education, and the difference is whether you register through school of engineering or college of arts and sciences - which means you'll get different school requirements and major name on the diploma.
the stigma of CIS is actually a pretty big issue because while on the positive side there are places that give you a full CS education, there's also a surprising number of institutions with badly hacked up degrees in ms office...
My other car is a cons.
At the college I went to, CIS was part of the school of business. I wasn't a CIS major, but had a lot of access to the curriculum because I worked for the school of business. The CIS people were learning networking, how to install office, scripting et al. The CS people were learning all the complex detailed stuff (algorithims, data structures, search functions etc...).
The real irony is that university CS programs teach you how to code and research, but not how to program...you learn that on your own or on the job. CIS programs teach you how to program high level things to get things done, but not how to code or understand the theory involved such that you can apply your intellect to it's full potential as a programmer.
So it really boils down to finding out what you want to do and then finding out how to get there. Most universities will let you build special majors. Maybe the best solution is to build a major that incorportates the best of both majors in the direction you want to go.
I chose multimedia art because I found out that what I wanted to do with the technology was creative expression. I was taught Object Oriented Programming in the Art department with Lingo, I learned C on my own, then HTML and JavaScript because I had to make good on what I put on my resume.
So my advice is don't think about the means of getting there so much. Once you've found out the exact nature of point b, the path to it will make itself known, and you'll know how to take the parts of CS and CIS and make them work for you.
"Let him go, Ralph. He knows what he's doing." --Otto Mann (simpsons)
CS programs usually focus more on fundementals. You might not learn a C switch statement, but you'll know enough about programming in general to pick it up very quickly.
Now, not all CS grads can be more than coders and not all CIS grads are stuck in the coder role forever, but the training in CS programs lends itself to more long term career development.
Chris
What's the difference between an orange?
Does CIS include any business management courses? If it did, I'd consider a double-major to be worth the extra time and effort. One thing missing from many geek careers is where to go after programming. Even if a "management" career doesn't appeal to you, it may give you advantages over other people or open doors to programming opportunities that you wouldn't otherwise find.
If CIS doesn't include any business management courses, I'd consider it lacking. After you get the systems running right, dealing with management is the other major struggle you'll have -- if not THE major headache.
I'm sure you're just being sarcastic, but the reality is that a lot of people will burn out on programming after 10-15 years. Job switches and other horizontal movement may help a little, but it'd be nice to have a basis for moving up the food chain.
a lot of IS/MIS-type jobs are open to both majors, and probably relatively few engineering type jobs are open only to CS people, but if you study computer science, you'll probably actually learn to program, and learn how to Do Things Right, because you'll understand how things work, and the rest of us would really appreciate that.
-k. ^-^ ^D
CIS is fine as long as you want a CIS job. There's nothing I hate more than working with someone who has a CIS degree and trying to do the job of a CS. The foundation is just not there. At my school CIS majors couldn't take a lot of programming classes but could get programming jobs because a lot of places see "Computer...whatever" when they look at a degree and the HR types don't know the difference.
;)
Of course if you're really up for a challenge (which it doesn't sound like you are) go CE like me
On behal of the foreigners, the newbees and the underaged amongst the readers: what does CIS stand for.
(ps! i'm an foregner, that explains the typo's i'm sure in here somewhere)
i don't think this is fair.. i have a bs and an ms in mathematics, which i love, but i hate hardware. i like software a lot (getting an ms in cs). it's pretty much all about personal preference.
Hello. I when I said that MIS had their own career fair, I was referring to the campus-wide fair. Down at the LNC, the second floor was dedicated to MIS / Business Majors, whereas the main floor was everyone else.
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Mike Hollinger
Michael C. Hollinger
At the University of Oklahoma, MIS and CS are fairly different. In fact, the MIS people have their own part of the career fair, and the Engineering (CS) have their own. I discovered that Intel, Lucent, and Microsoft were differentiating between the majors. In fact, Microsoft and Intel did not accept CS and CE majors as applicants for jobs or internships. Lucent sent two different sets of managers.
I would say ask a few recruiters from various companies in your region what they think of the two majors.
--
Mike Hollinger
Michael C. Hollinger
Exactamundo.
LoRider
It depends more on your value to the company than on degrees. I work in a multinational company, we have people of many different countries and scholastic backgrounds. The value of each of these people's degrees is nearly impossible to put a figure on (of course this could be very different in a small, local company which has a good knowledge of the college you went to).
Don't get sidetracked by all this, just study what you want to study. Chances are what you end up doing is completely unrelated to what classes you took at college or uni. You could major in English and end up writing assembly video drivers, who knows. I've seen English majors do great things with C, and I've seen CS people who couldn't code hello world if their life depended on it.
It ain't what you do it's the way that you do it :).
So, you're the one that started that trend? Explains most of the software these days.
-- Keith Moore
This sig is the express property of someone.
Just a couple things:
A. Classroom is not the magic bullet that is the only way to learn, hate to say it. You need a teacher, a mentor, but I have found the best teacher/mentor is NOT in a school environment. Most professors teach because it's a requirement to supplement their research. There is NOTHING that can not be learned outside of class, and generally more efficiently. The only thing a school is good for is that it is easier to get hold of someone that can teach you, this can also be accomplished if you ignore money for the first couple years and hunt down someone you want to work with, and take a job somewhere near them. I went to college for Engineering, but left for personal reasons. I took a job fixing roofs in a small company that consisted of several amazing programmers, and one Math ABT-PhD. I learned a lot from those guys, and eventually started programming, and learning all sorts of amazing things about algorithms and such.
B. What percentage of people actually need to know how the compiler optimizes? I mean really indepth. I understand how the optimizer works, and it helps in some design decisions, but that can be learned on the job also. I believe EVERY programmer should have indepth understanding of the language, and the platform they are on, but these things are generally learned well on-the-job.
-- Keith Moore
This sig is the express property of someone.
CIS is a better choice than CS for potential MBA candidates. These programs are generally part of the business school, and include a lot of courses that are not part of any cs curriculum.
CIS is a better choice for people who do not like maths and logic. CIS does not claim to be CS, and is generally take by people who do not believe they have to sit through Formal Languages etc. They are not dummies, i am sure most CIS graduates are better communicators than CS graduates. They would also probably do better in most verbal tests. Refusing to take courses you do not like is NOT a sign of stupidity, rather the opposite.
And finally, CS majors should be less snobbish. CS is not that difficult or elite to warrant an attitude.
My advice: If your goals can be achieved thru CIS/MIS take that route. it closes some doors, serious software development, but it open others like management.
Woe be on to them, all who rise against poor people, shall perish in a the end. Buju Banton
the whole point of this question is whether or not you can get the same job with a much easier degree?
Maybe you can, but I guarantee you won't be able to do as much with the opportunity if you go CIS. But in the larger scope of things I don't think you will ever amount to anything with that kind of attitude...
It is unlikely that even in the worst recession forseable, that highly technically skilled individuals will lack for work. The world and the economy are too dependant on computers and computer systems to run, and the number of devices and systems vs. the number of people who understand them is only growing in favor of those of us to have an understanding computer systems.
Certainly any given technical skillset will probably grow less valuable over time (how many new Fortran jobs have you seen lately?) but in the near future as we enter into a world with literally BILLIONS of devices connected to the network (with wireless devices probably being more pervasive than desktop PCs) the individuals capable of configuring, programming, and developing the underpinnings of the network will be in very high demand.
Personally both as a technologist myself, and as someone who hires programmers, what I look for first and foremost is an inherent understanding and love of computers coupled with specific knowledge of the technologies that the job requires. For what I need I would not hire someone from a techinical school with multiple certifications, rather I would prefer to hire the liberal arts major whose passion has always been technology, the type of developer who didn't take CS classes in college because their open source project was already taking up too much of their time (or their paid projects).
While I enjoy CS theory (though I myself am a historian by training) very little of it has a direct effect on the productitivy and skill of the developers. The most talented developers either figure much of the theory out themselves, or upon encountering it exploit and enhance the suggestions to make their jobs easier.
The best developers I know have become that by their reaction to computers, they think of something they want, and rather than just waiting for someone else to sell it to them, they figure out how to make it for themselves. For example, years ago (over 10) a friend wanted a first person shooter type of game for his computer, rather than waiting to buy one, he sat down with his Visual Basic (the language that he knew at the time) and wrote one. When he needed to enhance the graphics performance (this was back when a 486 was the top processor) he tought himself some C and some Assembler.
Individuals like him are who make technical leaps. Technologists who know the systems, learn the tools quickly, have the abililty and patience to get it right, and want a job will always be able to find one.
Just my few cents on this topic...
-- Join us in Chicago May 1-4th for MeshForum -- writer, historian, tech geek, entrepreneur, internet junky since '91 --
CSE is the bastard child of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science. They know a little about both, but excel in neither. Trust me, I was one (CSE).
Your friends seem to be right about CS and CIS majors getting hired for the same jobs and are being paid to do the same work.
The reason behind this is that companies do not base their decision entirely on the type of degree you have but more so on the experience and the amount of knowledge you exhibit in the interview.
Now, the decision to become a CS or CIS major depends on you. If you feel that you will do okay in the math requirements of the curriculum, then by all means go CS... However, if you feel that it would be too difficult or troublesome, then go CIS/IS.
Now, deciding what you want do does not stop there. You now must ask yourself what do you want to do after you graduate and what do you do now to prepare yourself when you get there:
if you want to do hardcore/cool programming stuff, then study lots of well known algorithms, data structures, and different programming languages (but, remember, this stuff is formally taught in CS classes)
If you don't care to learn any of this stuff and you just want to get the paycheck that comes along with the CIS or CS title... then, you might want to reconsider in getting into any of the two majors... I have seen to many CS and CIS majors who graduate without knowing how to program, and then wonder why they can't get a job or a good paying one at that!
So, that's my 2 cents on the whole matter... me being a CS major who despises math but can program very well... I figured that I could have done better in CIS and still have been a good programmer... (I would have been a better programmer then some CS majors!)...
Take care and good luck.
-slams
What is it that you want to do? The difference is this: CS will give you a strong understanding of computation, the idea of changing relationships between things in order to accomplish some goal, that is, moving bits to do things, at a theoretical level. CIS will give you a good background for using computers for business. This is a popular field of study, and businesses will always need increasing levels of horsepower to keep up with the Joneses. But I think it's like studying engineering versus fuel injection. You can do quite a bit if you know fuel injection, but so much more if you know engineering.
:)
Keep in mind the scope of computation, where it has been used, where it currently is used, and more importantly where it probably will be used. We've basically already got supercomputers sitting on our desks, and everyone knows what Moore's law will say. Sociologists and researchers from many other disciplines are beginning to see the benefit of constructing massive computational models to study things they never suspected were possible.
This all goes to say that if you want to make some decent money working in business-related projects, go CIS. It's easier, and most people can't program well anyway. Personally I think it's short-sighted and too easy. Even CS is too easy compared to the math-freaks that move later on the computation (like, say, von Neuman, who basically invented the majority of the computational paradigms in the 30s that we all unwittingly use), but it's a lot more useful in an abstract sense. CIS skills are good now, but things may change in the next 20 years, and you might find that the people getting out of school then with a BS in biocomputationalnanofreakery are replacing you.
But this is just my opinion. No one really knows what's going to happen. The real answer is just to love other people and be happy.
BTW - 'softmore' is more like 'sophomore' than 'software'.
Matt
If you really want to impress people with your computer literacy, add the words "dot com" to the end of everything, do
I forgot to mention that I am now a senior in college, who picked CS freshman year because I had done a lot of network support and management. I hated programming, I hated trying to figure out the best way to write an algorithm, and I hated discrete math. But then I started to realize that it's not the theory stuff that I was interested in, it was the stuff you can do with it that is crazy. So maybe try and find something you like to do or think about, and see if someone is using computation in that subject. Almost every science now is. We even copy things from nature and use them to build models (neural networks, genetic algorithms).
Don't know if this helps. But again, the important thing is to make sure you enjoy it, because deploying 20,000 copies of Windows 2010 is going to suck.
Matt
If you really want to impress people with your computer literacy, add the words "dot com" to the end of everything, do
As an indvidual who regularly interviews people for programmer posistions, I would say definately go for the CS degree. In my opinion, CIS degrees are not enough to prepare you for a career in programming. Even with people who come into our company with CS degrees have a rather steep learning curve (we design smartcard based network security products) ahead of them.
I have interviewed many people who have followed the CIS track, and have not been impressed at all with the level of their programming knowledge. They rarely do well on the technical questions I ask. They are usually adequate for help-desk or testing type posistions, but I assume that is not what you are after.
I wouldn't curse my worst enemy with going to Devry. All kidding aside, AFAIK, devry and other tech schools offer the good ol' "we'll teach you how to be a computer operator and how to work your way up to middle management" philosophy. I'd pick a real college, first off, and a real degree, if i wanted to get anywhere. And like someone else said, the CIS will be obsolete in a few years, whereas the methods of CS will last a lot longer, since you're learning the concepts, not the eye-candy.
------ Poo-tee-weet?
at least at my school (Southwest Missouri State University). CS (which I am *proudly* a major of) is a programming degree, along with a lot of stress on understanding how computers work (down to circuitry of the processor, etc). CIS is a business degree. The only programming class they are required to have is Visual Basic.
Please don't compare the two.
Well actually I decided on Computer Science but wondered what I could be missing out on in Computer Information Systems so I decided to get a minor in CIS and Math and then majored in Computer Science. Needless to say I learned a lot and job hunting was very easy. I would highly recommend CS over CIS. CIS seemed much too easy from the programming side and delved too deeply into the business side for my liking. If this is what you want I would recommend a CS degree with a business minor.
I have a question. Wasn't there a composition requirement in your curriculum? You may be making a lot of money, but you strike me as a functional illiterate.
I really do enjoy the logic of hardware, but I don't care for debugging errors due to signal interference, etc. So occasionally I take some of the engineering courses (most people in my LITEC (Labratory Introduction To Embedded Controllers) class did not understand why I was taking it when I did not have to. But it was fun).
In the end do what you feel comfortable with. I just can't understand people claiming the enjoy coding but hate math. The two are so fundamentally intertwined once you get past introductory level material, and I am not talking about Theory of Computation. If you really feel that you want to write more then sheel scripts for a living, CS is probably better the CIS.
Louis
Actually, as a CIS major I needed to take two EE classes as well: CPEG 210 Introduction to Combinational Logic and CPEG 211 Introduction to Sequential Circuits. :)
I think the real question is that of the school, and how the _school_ views the difference between the two. What people say here does not mean much since the difference varies wildly from school to school.
Just my $.02. Best of luck to you.
*If* your only goal is to further your carreer, the choice is easy: drop out now, and get a job. In my experience, companies are desperate enough to find someone with actual skill that they're giving the same jobs, at the same wages, to cs majors, cis majors, art history majors, and highschool dropouts. In fact, most employers are likely to be more excited by a few years of actual real-world experience than by even a very relevant degreee.
However, if you have goals other than furthering your carreer, consider sticking with the cs program. Knowledge for knowledge's sake and all that.
Either way, the cis program is probably a pointless compromise. If you're trying to impress an employer, don't bother; if you're trying to impress yourself, do it the hard way.
I'm a graduate student in computer science. I definately think that I could have pitched school after sophomore year and been a fine industry computer person. Being a CS, CIS, MIS, Software Engineer, whatever, doesn't really matter. A big part of the reason they have these degrees in the first place is to be a measure of your determination. Company X likes you to have a degree because it "proves" you are *determined* enough to pass calculus. Are you?
Slashdot 's editors are dickheads
I know that this was my attitude as well, back when I had some say in who got hired to be on my team. When I saw that someone had an MIS degree, I didn't take them as seriously as someone with a CS degree.
I'm sure it depends on who you try to get a job with, but I think there are many people who see CS as more serious than MIS.
Of course there are also many people who don't care at all about degrees...
You must have made a typo. It's really CE->CS->CIS->Bus Driver->MIS.
Common mistake.
--
You're a suburbanite.
It doesn't matter what degree you get, its the skills you have. Enroll in the program of your choice, but do internships and work in the industry during the summer. Your experience will mean much more than your degree. I work for a large maker of network equipment, and my English degree does wonders for me here:)
Not only do they have to take COBOL, they have to take it from Beca Wemhoff, AKA THE DEVIL.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Unless you're going into a very hardcore sector of the industry (like gaming, high end applications, or the like) a CS degree will have very, very little to do with what you'll do on a day to day basis including the code you're likely to write. My degrees are in physics and history and all I got out of the physics degree was analyitical thinking skills, problem solving, and the ability to drink 12 cups of coffee and appear calm. The history has been more useful because it broadened my interests and allowed me to date the fashionably dishevled literature majors I was always lusting after. Besides, I'm a firm believer in the liberal arts education. If you're looking to go into enterprise computing, get a CS minor. Most schools offer minors which gives you the core courses and a few extras without most of the requirements. You'll learn how to program, get some basic algorithms, and you can spend the rest of your time going after something you really would like to study.
Dr. Fardook drfardook@evilconspiracy.com
I proudly tell them I have CS with a Psych minor =)
---
-
ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only
With all else being equal (such as familiarity with the tools), anyone who knows the Big-O of heapsort, and can demonstate how that is derived, is going to be a far more competant programmer than someone who simply knows the Collections framework in java.util.*
Learning languages is trivial. Learning tools is trivial. Sure, it takes time, but you are far better off hiring the competent CS grad over the less competant CIS grad who has experience with the technology du jour. Knowledge of theory and programming skill exist across technologies, and it is far cheaper to train a good programmer on the tools in question rather than train someone who's only got the certifications into how to be a good programmer.
Yes, CS and programming are not the same, but good programmers are going to be far more interested in CS (or math, or engineering, or science) than CIS.
--
Bush's assertion: there ought to be limits to freedom
If you really want to program, go CS. If you want to work with computers in many ways, go CS.
I did that and now I can move from application development, web devlopment, enterprise development and now embedded devlopment. I can become a consultant at $80 (if you don't mind the risk). I can even go to IT or technical support (shudder) if I want. I have at least 5 headhunters tracking me down every week even though my home page/resume says I'm not looking.
Also, it's easy to extend CS to another field if you have the interest (especially the fields of business, science, and medicine).
If computers is just an easy way to get a job: go to a trade school. The price of college isn't worth it. A friend of mine went into CIS. He qualified for a job as a headhunter for technical people (who make more than him).
My mind works like lightning. One brilliant flash and it is gone.
why you should take all those difficult courses, then it's a clue that maybe a CS major is not for you. People who are cut out for CS actually tend to actively like learning things like that.
Take this short test:
When you call a sort() function, do you ever wonder things like "what's the performance on a nearly sorted list?"
If you answered "yes" (or even found the question interesting) then you may be CS material. If you answered "who cares" or "how does that help me complete my sql entry form" then you probably won't be happy in a CS major.
YMMV.
IMHO, there is no excuse for mastering the grammar of your native tongue, particularly if you earned your college degree.
I agree; grammar is nothing more than applying analytical skills to your language--the same skills that we are supposed to use on a daily basis in software development.
I agree with this. For example, CS majors are taught how a database works. CIS majors are taught how to use a database.
The CIS folks, however, will need to be constantly retrained (more than CS folk) to learn how to use the new stuff, so getting stuck writing Program X on Platform Y is common.
Only as a generality, I would agree with this. It still should be judged on an individual basis. And it may be the effect (because weaker students go for CIS) rather than the cause (CIS creating weaker students). Hmmmm. I wonder if I really believe that?
The thing you usually miss when comparing CS and CIS degrees, and any kind of degree, is the time you could have spent doing something else. 5 years of CS isnt entirely wasted, but the experience will be 90% irrelevant to the job you're going to be doing later. You dont need anything more advanced than algebra to do programming. Youll barely even start to touch anything more advanced even if you do 3d programming, and _if_ you need it, you can pick up the nearest book on the topic and learn that then.
Because _the_, _only_ thing you need to know is how to find information and how to understand that information when you need it.
A lot of CS majors either learn that or they drop out simply because CS is harder than CIS and you often (not always) have to learn those qualities to succeed. On the other hand, a fair number of CS majors drop out because CS is BORING to most people, especially when you know you're wasting your time on things you'll never use in your life again (simply because this is the way academics traditionally work).
Those years can be used better. Either on a more relevant degree where you get time to study other things on your own, or on the job, if you are lucky enough to find a good one. After 5 years of work experience the employers who care wether you went with CIS, CS or on your own arent the ones you want to work for either way.
1. Read more. Your spelling is atrocious. The word
:^P )
is "sophomore" not "softmore. If this is a joke on your part it's really lame. If not I'm not sure you're going to be happy in any science field as a career.
2. Why are you in college? Get a degree in something you like, not what you think will make you money. The point is, if you major in something you like, it's more likely you'll come up with creative ideas on how to make it something that helps you earn a living.
3. CIS vs CS vs Math.
CIS is a specialization in CS
CS is a study of concepts and theories in using computers.
Mathematics is where computers come from (physics and engineering merely make the hardware. The guts of what makes a computer is the Math
If you want to be limited by the language of the day, and be forced to keep up with technology to keep your job OR you have a position and CIS will cement you into place for the next 40 years (see COBOL) then this is a good choice
If you want to be a creator and implementer with a good understanding of how computers do their thing in the CPU, major in CS.
If you a want a broad, deep, sharp and limitless access to knowledge, adaptability in science and a change in the way you think...choose Math.
If none of these suggestions appeal, Sports Medicine is lucrative...
7dragon
Applied Mathematician by Education
Database Administrator by profession
Perpetual Student due to life.
Actually, "alot" is a word. It's just not what he meant. That's why you see it around so much; it gets by the spell checkers.
It's kinda like allocate, which i'm sure some of you are more familiar with. For a real definition, read the aforementioned dictionary.
-ben.c
If you're willing to go to a big, impersonal university, there's nothing to stop you from building your own curriculum that satisfies artistic and technical curiousities. At Indiana University they have a BA program in CS. It's been really easy to mix that with a double major and I've been able to take classes like digital design, visual communications, online journalism, philosophy, creative writing, history of photography, bicycling etc.. The only problem I have with the breadth of my education is that it's hard to find people who will discuss tech one minute and existentialism the next. :P
i'm not trying to threaten incoming people-i'm just saying that he should look at the future when considering employment and education. if this person were to just consider starting salery, then he would be better off not going to college. he could make about the same amount of money going to an IT school for a year or so. i feel this decision shows lack of forsight.
i honestly i think a programmer would be better prepared with a cs or ce degree than with a cis degree. cs and ce focus more on analytical problems solving, and (sadly for some) that requires alot of math. i'm in the same boat as you-i'm still in school because i like math.
you are right, you will be hired/fired/laidoff based on your ability to do the job. i feel that your ability to do the job depends on your edcuation, and that a person with a cs degree will be better prepared than a cis.
use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
-- john
None of this has anything to do with your degree, which will look less important each year you are out of school. I took Economics and Chinese because I found them interesting and challenging, and have done very well in the technology job market.
you must have misunderstood when i said that under the current economy the job market hasn't yet reached it's saturation level. ie. right now you can get an IT job with a history degree. if the economy takes a downturn this will not be the case.
you are correct, they will look at your work preformance before they decide who to can. if it comes down to a cs vs a cis they will take the cis i am afraid. just my opinoion though.
CS vs CIS - i would take the CS. he has demonstrated that he can work harder. I would take a CE over the CS, but that is just my bias towards engineers.
use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
-- john
You can certainly get a job with either degree. However, if you would like to excel at what you do then you should pick CS. I have run into numerous CIS grads who had a very hard time picking up new skills. Alot of what you will be doing in a job is learning. Having a good CS background is very helpful when learning different technology. The ability to pick things up quickly and understand them will set you apart from the less technical people.
"Real men" choose Electrical/Computer Engineering over CS if they have the chance (then again, not all schools have a Computer Engineering department). Its nice to have a formal understanding on HOW your computer works (beyond the 0's and 1's). But then again, Comp Eng can be overkill for most jobs... CS is definitely 10x harder than CIS/MIS, but Comp Eng is 10x harder than CS =)
ohhh, 3 whole semesters of Calc? I go to UMR (the real school in the UM system) and the lowest math class I can take is calc. The CS degree here is one class short of a math minor, so don't complain about UMSL
Everyone can always use more math. Once you get to the end of the Calculus tunnel, you realize they are just teaching you how to think - something every good programmer needs to know.
- daniel
- daniel
Turn off your computer and go outside
Especially since I've never used anything beyond addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division since I'd left college. All that calculus I took was a waste.
Then again, I'm not working on the space shuttle, either....YMMV.
-- Ed Carp, N7EKG erc@pobox.com PGP KeyID: 0x0BD32C9B What I'm up to: http://intuitives.mine.nu
The first thing I'll say is that everything I'm doing in my current job I didn't learn about in school. :) This includes Unix system administration, Perl/PHP programming, and wireless networking.
Some of my classmates are now Oracle Forms programmers, Technical writers or NT/Novell Administrators.
My advice is study whichever you enjoy more and then take the jobs that will make you well rounded.
I was hired at my last three jobs, not because I knew the technology (I didn't) but because I could problem solve. I learned the technology on the job.
Most employers look for results, they're happy if you solve the problem, they don't usually care HOW you solve it.
Shawn
Pardon me for criticizing further, but your subject should be:
"Yay! Lack of quality in schools show*s* through!"
It's a classic mistake - subject-verb disagreement.
I did understand the 'computard' pun, though.
Everyone will start to cheer when you put on your sailin' shoes.
On the point of differences between CS and CIS degrees, your points seem to dwell on the assumption that on-the-job training can make up for a lack of training in school. Sorry, there are things that one learns in school that a person is just not going to discover on the job. And these are the very things that take up most of the curriculum in a CS program. Yeah, a CIS degree may teach you how databases work, but you're never going to just figure out how to write one on the job.
Mad Software: Rantings on Developing So
Depends on what questions you ask, really. The ideal questions, and the ones we try to ask, are the ones that allow a person to demonstrate their knowlege of programming, data structures, and their problem solving skills. Asking questions like "What's a string?" tend to get you an entirely different class of answers than "How would you have implemneted cfront?"
Agreed... that's what earns them the interview. At that point, they need to demonstrate that they really have learned that certain amount. I have interviewed people who may have been unsung geniuses, but when asked the simplest questions, were unable to explain basic concepts like stacks or linked lists. Either they were unable to function under the slightest amount of pressure, or they were unable to communicate effectively, or they simply didn't understand the concepts. Any one of those, in my mind, is a good enough reason to give someone a thumbs down.
Well, employers that think that way are letting too much ride on the interview. While you can learn a lot about interpersonal skills, etc. from an interview and even get a good idea of their knowledge, the interview should only be a part of the hiring process.
Everyone knows (including employers) that a CS degree is harder to get than a CIS degree. This is for a reason. CS Majors learn more about programming and more in-depth. How can you deny this? If I get 20 CS resumes and 20 CIS resumes for a top programming position and I only have time to interview 10 people, then I'm going to throw out the CIS resumes.
Sorry, there are things that one learns in school that a person is just not going to discover on the job.
Like what? Please explain. I've yet to encounter anything that cannot be taught or learned on the job, or picked up "on the side" while working.
The entire field of Computational Geometry was unknown to me before I took it in school. I poked around in the dark for a long time reinventing the wheel until I found out that someone was already doing what I doing, and a lot better job of it too. I didn't even know to look it up before then. And yes, I did look for resources before I started. But how was I supposed to know to look for information on computational geometry before I knew what it was?
Yeah, a CIS degree may teach you how databases work, but you're never going to just figure out how to write one on the job.
Pardon me - your arrogance is showing. The first people to write databases did figure them out on the job. There are developers in all corners of the globe who somehow manage to limp along and produce some pretty damn good software without the benefit of a CS degree, because they're willing to learn on the job, outside of school. A CS degree is a good foundation for continuing to learn; but do not think for a moment that lack of a degree neccesarily indicates lack of knowledge.
Not necessarily. Many of the concepts used to create modern databases and especially the fast, efficient ones were devised in the research lab by people math, science, and computer science degrees, not by people who had learned to program by trial and error. The "useless" concepts that CS majors are taught are the things that aren't just figured out through trial and error. It's true that advances are made "on the job", but not all positive advances show their advantage immediately and thus aren't pursued in such an enviroment.
There's a difference between learning "on the job" and learing "while working". If a person basically learns the equivilant of a CS while working, then I would say that paper or not, he/she has a CS degree. But most people who want to go this far actually go and get the paper.
A CS degree is about advancing the field. A CIS degree is about learning what has already been learned.
Mad Software: Rantings on Developing So
I *have* read Knuth, and I'm still a poser!
Seriously, though, maybe it's because I'm not advanced enough in this field, or maybe because I'm a complete idiot, but I could barely understand anything in that book.
I'll try again once I get into a university. Where I'm at now, the "Computer Science" program means you take calculus and one extra programming class. (In C++, but forget about 'learning' anything... it doesn't even get to classes)
o/~ All God's children shall be free in Pirates of the Caribbean, when we reach that Magic Kingdom in the sky... o/~
I have a degree in Computer Science, and I took a lot of the CIS classes so that I could learn more about UNIX and Java (where I went was very OS-agnostic in the Computer Science department).
;)
:).
What I have discovered through real-life experience as a developer and DBA is that the theory that you learn in classes such as Data Structures, Operating Systems, and Compiler Theory, as well as calculus, statistics, and discrete math is applied in the real world more than you think.
For example, learning SQL and learning how databases operate was simple after the two times I took discrete math (the only class I failed in college). I also used the relational theory a lot in Java, C/C++, and SQL code.
When I had to learn WAP and WML, I was presented with EBNF (Extended Backus-Naur Form) grammars. Knowing EBNF from my CS classes helped there. Knowing what a context-free grammar is and how to work with them using flex and bison (and EBNF by deduction) to write a better solution was a big help with XML.
When I had to write mathematically correct code, I used knowledge from Statistics and Numerical Analysis classes to do it.
Meanwhile, when I took my CIS classes, they didn't care about software engineering practices or writing the best code. CIS presents their students with a lot more management and application-level classes. From what I have seen, they care more about the impact of applications and high-level application design. CS is NOT application-specific, and cares more about the right way to develop on all levels and why.
However, when I took that one CIS Operating Systems class back at school, I remember the student presentations being essentially product slicks talking about vaporware. Apparently they must have a class on reading InfoWorld and eWeek. Not one mention of low-level filesystem fundamentals, process management, or IPC, and not ONE presentation on a UNIX variant (we did AmigaOS and covered all those topics and more). However, I learned a lot about NT ACL's and Novell.
My opinion is that a CS degree will help you more than you ever will realize in the real world. It will teach you how to think the right way about code and how to do it right. CIS people, from what I have seen, don't make it as higher-end developers unless they are really darn good. They just don't have that background. Those math and cs classes will help you think analytically and efficiently. You will learn how to program right, not just program in Java or COBOL
I have half of my college CS textbooks as references because they are that relevant to actual work, especially the Data Structures and Algorithms Analysis book by Weiss (probably the most popular CS book along with the Dragon Book).
Stick with CS. You'll be better off in the end, know more, and be better prepared to solve problems.
I thought that MIS was a degree: Management Information Science...hence would could BS MIS, or MS MIS...yes? At PSU we don't have a school of CS, we have a Business School that offers CIS, IS, and MBA.
I called our CIS dept chair to ask about the OS class. I wondered if PSU might use the linux kernel to study from, or if we would be coding our own. "Oh we don't write code, we study existing operating systems...the differences between Win9x, and WinNT, and how to administer both in a modern integrated(sic) enviornment." Computer Graphics isn't even offered as an elective. No one could teach it as a readings class, either.
From what I've seen, Chemistry will accept Computational Chemistry as being a form of chemistry. Computational Physics "isn't really physics" according to my dept chair...
Take a look at who is doing what with computational science. My web searches keep turning up chemists doing what used to be considered "molecular physics"...ab inito modeling of chem systems with quantum mechanics.
The CES program I am looking at has core classes and either photonics or a software/hardware track.
MS-CES Courses
Core Courses
MATH 430: Linear Systems Theory (3)
Prerequisites: One semester of differential equations
CS 410: Computer Architecture (3)
Prerequisites: One semester of assembly language (such as SSU CS 250) and one semester of digital logic (such as SSU CS 251 or SSU PHYS 413).
CES 513: Analog and Digital Microelectronics (3)
Prerequisites: Two courses covering both introductory analog and digital electronics (such as SSU PHYS 313/313L and PHYS 413/413L
18 units from the following:
Computer Hardware and Software CS 450: Operating Systems (3)
Prerequisites: Data structures (such as CS 254), and Systems programming (such as SSU CS 310).
CS 465: Data Communications (3)
Prerequisites: A course on Computer Organization Software (such as SSU CS 250), and Data structures (such as SSU CS 254).
CS 470: Software Engineering (3)
Prerequisite: Data structures (such as SSU CS 254).
CES 512: Embedded Systems (3)
Prerequisites: Systems programming (such as SSU CS 310), and analog and digital microelectronics (CES 513).
CES 522: Intelligent Systems Design (3)
Prerequisite: Data structures (such as SSU CS 254), and linear systems (such as SSU MATH 430).
CES 532: Data Compression (3)
Prerequisites: two semesters of calculus (such as SSU MATH 161 and 211), and data structures (such as SSU CS 254).
CES 555: Selected Topics in Hardware and Software Systems (3)
I am quite tired of that particular take on the matter.
Do you honestly think that your job, once out in the real world, is going to consist 100% of things you LIKE?
Get used to it.
"Somebody exploded a letter-bomb today
In some companies, misspelling common words seems to be part of the culture.
CmdrTaco needs to recruit this kid.
I have a BS in Computer Science and I'd say that I haven't learned any "underlying concepts" that I wouldn't have eventually learned on the job. I've learned the vast majority of what I know about programming simply through coding and thinking about problems. I found most CS classes to be pretty bad: the instructor isn't interested in teaching and generally acts like a jerk when you talk to him; the class is 95% male; the material is boring and repetitious. This may not be true for everybody, but it is true for me.
If I were to start over, I would take several classes in discrete logic and automa theory, but otherwise pursue a business or liberal arts degree. I'd then work during the summer to round out my programming skills. During college I'd focus on meeting interesting people and learning from them rather than studing computer science alone.
My advice would be to take the classes that interest you the most (and with the best professors), but make sure you just get enough programming done through internships and/or open source projects to know how to code.
Back in my undergrad days (at the U of MD) there were actually several classes that were crosslisted as CS and math (or applied math, though I guess that's a different beast). I remember taking a cross-listed logic class - some of the notation occasionally made me have to back up and look again, but the concepts were no sweat.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | http://www.infamous.net/
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | http://www.infamous.net/
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
The only reason to go to school is to learn. If you're going to school in order to get a job (or in order to get paid more) then you're there for the wrong reason. Don't waste your time (or the professor's, or the other student's) if you're not serious about being there.
You will learn a lot more about computers in CS (and way more in Comp Eng) than you will in CIS. And yes, it is harder because there is more material, but that's just how it goes.
blog
The benefit of a degree is not that it brings you more money, but that it shows, or at least should show, that you have completed a more-or-less "universal" (hence, "university") education. You should know your field /and/ some litt, art, etc. (That's the General Education), making you a well-rounded individual who can adapt to situation better than one who has not taken the time to study.
That's something I'd love to have.. But when any engineering major, not including GE, is 180 credits while almost every non-engineering major is 60 credits, it's hard to fit all those neat classes in.
If you're interested in programming and algorithms you definitively should select CS.
Math is a very important foundation for computer science that should not be understated. So, while you propably won't need the more exotic mathematics when you solve mundane programming tasks, you'll still benefit from it intellectually.
So if you're interested in development work, I'd recommend CS. If interested in management, it is possible that IS is adequate or even better.
But my judgement is colored by the fact that I'm a master of science in CS (or a Swedish equivalent).
dk_a_stacken_kth_se@foo.com Remove "@foo.com" from email, interpret the rest.
I was originally a CS major, and then after having problems and wasting money on Calculus I swithed from CS w/ a Math minor to CIS with an EET (Electrical Engineering Technology) minor.
Hell with the job market TODAY you could get a degree in basket weaving, as long as you know what a power switch, keyboard, mouse and monitor looks like they'll hire you.
--Mark
As the above implies, you have to ask yourself, "what you want to do after you graduate?" You also have to ask what you want to do while in school. You said you aren't looking forward to the math courses required for CS, but what about the CS courses that might have those math courses as pre-req's, such as crypto or theory or compilers.
Also, while most of industry sees CS and CIS and even CE (computer, not civil) as interchangeable, labs and academia tend not too; keep this in mind while pondering your decision.
Eric Nielsen
But, going back to the original question, you'd really need to ask yourself, what field you'd rather be in. CIS majors tend to migrate to IT/MIS/Ops related jobs, while CS majors tend to do more dev/programming/creation related jobs. Both, seem to make a decent amount.
Agreed. If your only reason for doing CIS is because it's easier then go for the CS degree -- you'll work harder, but I can tell you that when I look at my degrees hanging over my desk, I don't remember the work, only the pride I feel at knowing how hard I had to work to get them.
JAMWiki Java-based Wiki engine
I'd assume since you have 32 years of software exp. that they did not offer CS degrees when you went to college. I'd also assume that you are one of many who took the first steps in the field and fathered the theory and ideas that became a CS education.
Thanks.
Get the CS degree, it will make you a better person.
I'm a freshmen at WPI (Worcester Polytechnic Institute), and I decided to major in computer engineering, so I wouldn't be just another CS Major. CE is actually just electrical engineering with a concentration in computers, at least here, anyway.
I was wondering, from a students aspect, as well as from possible employers aspects, what they think of this major. I know already that it is significantly more difficult than CS, and I wonder if it's worth the extra work, and the electrical background that it gives me.
77' jeffs@wpi.edu
Your writting a program that parses a config file, and refereces this file many times. Due to abstraction and different programming tricks it is equally easy to read the file once and put it into an interal datastructure, or read the file everytime you need somthing from the config file. Both methods took about the same # of lines of code.
The collegue of mine who originally wrote the code chose to read the file everytime we needed a config parameter. Eventually we integrated and we were suffering a huge performance loss. I knew exactly why, back in OS we learned that disk operations are orders of magnitude slower than memory operations because they are mechnaical.
Most experienced programmers will laugh at this and say, "Of course you idiot, file I/O is expensive, duh". But thats the key, I wasn't an experienced programmer, this was my first attempt at programming in the large. Knowing the fundamentals of how the computer works I was able to reason out why I was having a problem. I knew the why not just the how.
CIS allows you to become an experienced user,
CS allows you to become a better hacker.
BOFH, My model for being a sysadmin :)
I doubt anyone will ever read this, but please. You idiots who like to preach are comparable to a church preacher, you might as well be telling the poor boy that he's going to hell why he's at it. Looking at job possibilities is an essential part of education. Your insensitive bashings are childish and mean. Get off your high horses and realize that asking questions isn't wrong and while focusing on education is good, sitting in your wire closests all day reading about the latest discovery in bit manipulation isn't everything.
There's no free lunch in education. In the long term, you'll be useful to your employer if you have real skills (programming, mathematics, writing, whatever), and employers will pay for you if you're useful to them. Start thinking about why you're learning what you're learning.
If nothing else, this will be good practice for your job interviews; somehow, I don't think it will go down well if you explain that you chose your degree because you thought it was the one that would give you the maximum starting salary for the minimum effort....
---jbf
What about the school you go to? What are their programs like? In my school, the CS program was pretty good. They got very in depth and technical. In our CIS program across campus (literally, we had a neat little rivalry with them), we had some really great profs who actually had real world development experience (one guy was a retired 2-time millionaire success who passed on some great knowledge about Software Engineering). CS majors took some of the CIS courses and vice versa and both departments were pretty good.
The CIS majors didn't have as much technical knowledge as we did, but they weren't too far behind and some of them took enough CS courses outside of their department that they were right up to speed with us.
And some people I've met (and worked with until I fired them) who got their CS degrees at other schools were complete morons. They knew less about CS than the CIS majors from my school. Maybe they were just a bad student from a still good school, but the fact is that different schools have different definitions of CS and CIS, and some school's CS departments are less technical than even the CIS departments of other schools.
If I were you, I would talk to my teachers (and maybe some advisors, but I never really trusted my advisor's judgement - the one weakness of my school's CS dept. IMHO), and I would talk to any professionals I know, and I would talk to some of the upper classmen in both departments. Ask them what they expect to do after graduation with their degrees. Ask them what they've gotten out of their education so far. These are the people that know the most about what your school offers in each department and what you can expect to get out of it. Anyone else's opinion is based on what they saw at their school which could be completely different.
Just to throw my two bits into the discussion:
I received a Bachelor of Arts degree in Computer Science in 1990 from a small, private, liberal arts college, and am now a UNIX systems admin/programmer. I took a variety of CS courses including everything from compiler design to artificial intelligence to theory of programing languages. My success as a sysadmin stems from the broad exposure to CS technologies I received in those classes, but even more so to the disciplined problem solving skills I learned in the CS and other courses I took.
I came out of that school a competent programmer which has helped me tremendously in the systems administration arena. There are a lot of people out there who know enough to push the buttons to make the computer work, but world-class sysadmins are problem solvers first and foremost. I believe the same is true for programmers in general.
Focus on your problem solving skills, especially skills involving the interface between people and computers, that is the domain of the programmer and the systems admin. Making that interface work is a skill that will pay off for you big time!
>"universal" (hence, "university")
:)
Not realy. It has nothing to do with universal - most important part is "uni". University means something along the lines of together blah blah, ie the students were supposed to learn together. They were the ones that set up classes, found teachers, got involved.
I'm sure there is someone here with a degree in latin that can explain it further (I for one would welcome it) but for now, this is as much enlightenment as I will provide you with
Karma: 2.71828182846 (Mostly due to small, fun pills)
Putting "softmore" on a resume isn't a good first impression, IMHO.
I don't think the degree really matters. There are people who have the minds to programmers and there are people who do not. I have met some pretty talented programmers who have no degree whatsoever. If I were you, I would take the simplest and cheapest route get to where you want to go. If you have the skills to be a programmer and can prove yourself through projects you have done or through projects you've been involved in, you have nothing to worry about. As long as you get an interview and impress them, you're in. Regardless of the degree you carry, or don't carry.
There was once a very good piece at perl.com about teaching COBOL coders how to write Perl. While some things have changed, and many things have gotten "easier," the author did point out how many things in CS don't change. Its worth the read if you can find it again.
I think you probably mean Edward de Bono?
A couple of other interesting related books:
I think you're asking the wrong question, you really need to ask something along the lines of "I would like to do X, Y, or Z as a job - which would be more suitable : CS / CIS / Something else?"
Instead you could consider picking something you enjoy and take technical subjects. As long as you have a (semi-)relevant qualification for the field of interest you'd like to work in you should be better off.
Work out what you want to do, what sort of company you want to work for (ie. Big Financial Corporations or Consultancy firms or fims into hardware level stuff etc.) and then work out which degree is most relevant.
Also, keep in mind a lot can change in the time between starting and finishing your degree... but hopefully you can adapt to the change.
I do development work on the ATM firmware side of a 450 gigabit switch for a major telecommunications company in Ottawa. Know what? NO ONE I've met, outside of the ~4% of our employees in IT, have CIS degrees. In fact, the number of CS degrees is pretty small too; it's mostly systems engineers (although, I personally have am CS).
Here is what I have found after 4 years of a CIS degree. They don't teach you crap about technology, but they fill you up with all kinds of business info. If you want to make good money and not do a lot of hard work, I would suggest doing what I have done:
Major in CIS, and because the workload is less, you will have time to find a good tech job to supplement your learning. I personally work on campus in a full time position that teaches me more tech stuff than I could ever learn in the CIS program.
-My 10 cents, take it or leave it
-------------------
rm -rf
Gee if it were that way I wouldn't be living in poverty right now. The truth is that Skills don't mean anything when your looking for a job. All potiential employers look at is what "Work Experience" you have or if you have a degree. Sorry to burst your bubble but thats the way it is.
Well Not sure about other people but I decided late in the game that I wanted to be a programmer, but luckily I had worked at computer firms while I was in school. Which I know helped me immensely even over the people with degrees in CS or CIS. My degree is in agriculture and applied economics, Pre-vet business mgt option. Yeah I still get the grins and the snickers, but the experience outside of school has meant so much more. Sometimes I wish I had gone CS but it all doesn't mean a hill of beans if you can't apply it to the real world
An armed society is a polite Society
yeah, but MIS people only know how to use Microsoft Access and the help desk.
heres something an MIS major might say
"SQL Server crashed again! What, you mean you have to recompile a stored procedure or else it returns the wrong data than what's actually in the database? What kind of crap is that. My data is corrupt! Why can't Microsoft put my company's money to good use to fix these bugs?"
and when they become managment
"Yes, we've been having problems with that database application. But I think its an advantage to be able to return two different sets of data from same database, isn't it? I mean you as the programmer should know the advantage of parallel computing."
http://github.com/gbook/nidb
In my University we now have three degrees concentrated on computer science: Computer Science& Engineering, Computer Science, and Management Information Systems. The difference between the CSE and CS degrees is electrical engineering courses and hardware design. In the CSE program, you learn to engineer computer hardware as well as software. You are also expected to apply the stuff learned in physics and calculus to computer science courses.
Both CS and CSE require six or so calculus classes. But the big difference between the degrees is that the CSE degree requires 8 more credits. I wont even count MIS students as being 'in' computer science, they're in information processing which is much different than engineering. You dont need to know probabilistic analysis methods of computer systems to shovel data for an Insurance company.
There is also a lot of joking from the CSE majors that we should change to CS because it would be easier.. we may even have time to date or something. We stay in the program because its interesting. Were not simply learning existing methods, we're learning how to analyze a problem and understand what's the best method to solve it even if that method doesn't exist.
The only people who make it through the CSE program are people who are interested in engineering and especially computer science. People who are just interested in getting a degree to get a job usually dont make it, and end up in MIS. www.gbook.org
http://github.com/gbook/nidb
I can't decide - should I learn to be an airline pilot, or a doctor.
I hear the pay is roughly the same, these days.
/., help me out!
-=Best Viewed Using [INLINE]=-
sophomore ?
;-)
cis ?
you lot really butchered the language.
here's a few of your changes to the Queens English I do understand (we get a LOT of your TV 'shows' over here).
the right word is on the right side
color == colour
sidewalk == pavement
shop == workshop
mall == shoping centre
football == rugby (with body armor)
soccer == football
i could go on and on...
"computard people"
Don't ya' just hate it when you missspell something in a post that is complaining about the same.
Step down from the soapbox and slowly back away.
If you don't want to get a technical degree, at least learn some useful non-technical stuff like accounting or marketing -- it will be more useful in the long run.
CS is a computer science, MIS is a mixture of CS and business. I guess MIS should be those people-translators between businessmen and programmers/geek-likes ;)
Math, I guess, are problematic for everyone, though not as impossible to pass as accounting, management, and the like ;) CS, on the other hand, will give you a better base and concept knowledge.
The question that I think you should ask yourself is not whether you should take CS or MIS (CS of course), but where to do it. I've almost done the whole thing in the college, and I think it sux. So, I wonder, whether it could have been better if I did it in the university.
P.S.: you will not find an answer to your question here ;-)
Leonid Mamtchenkov
I studied comparative literature and philosophy in undergrad, and performance studies in grad school. The only programming class I ever took I failed because I argued with the teacher too much! Choose something you like, and take the opportunity to take classes in varied subjects. You'll never get as good a chance to explore as you have in undergrad! Even grad school is pretty focused.
Peace, or Not?
In the longer term, though, a degree will probably help. And a CS degree, though tougher, will teach you more about the actual thinking required to do the job well.
'In knowledge is power, in wisdom humility.'
It depends on what side of the CSE you're most interested in (software or hardware). I'm more of a hardware fanatic than software, so I'm ok with the prospect of being an ueber-coder. This is good, because the first few semesters of the CS end of my ECE program aren't so hot. Intro to Programming and Algo. and Data. Structures were in, get this, *ADA95* (spew). I would have killed for some Fortran. It shapes up a bit in the 4th semester with "C as a Second Language" (the one-credit programming class from hell...meets once a week, but covers *everything*), and MIPS assembler. Right now I'm reading this string while I put off looking at my grades....Ada class can go either way (trend being 80% passed Intro, 33% passed Algorithms, where I am), and I'm going to go postal if I have to take any more of that piece of crap.
"These people look deep within my soul and assign me a number based on the order in which I joined" --Homer re:
MIS in my mind is Master in Information Science. And at least here at the University of Tennessee at Knoxville (Go Vols) Information Science is its own school and more like library science with a heavy computer slant. So if what you want to do is deal primarily with the information, and not the system it runs on this is the type of degree you want.
UTK School of Information Science
There is a lot of truth and wisdom in the above post. Those people who just want to "get in on the Internet game" should take the words to heart. Nice job telling it like it is, OlympicSponsor.
Rangers Lead the Way!
Those difficult projects and fundamentals you do in most CS classes teach you many things that you can apply to the real world: "Frustration", "Headaches", "Sleepless nights", but most importantly, they teach you to do things the right way. You'll either fail trying, or become a very good at troubleshooting. This is the most critical aspect anyone in any CS/CIS/computer field can have.
Quick troubleshooting and good fundamentals - not knowledge, is really what sorts the elite from the beggars. Because someone who has those two can pick up new knowledge extremely quick.
The world will be a tough place. Right now anyone who can type ctl-alt-del on a keyboard can get a job in CS/CIS/etc. This won't always be the case - and at that time, it will make a difference.
You are being very cross-eyed if you are only asking for the easy route to success, because the markets can change on a whim. Thats when they'll sort out the great from the "maybe I should take the easy route" people. Yes, I know, many people in college ask this question all the time. But not everyone does.
You picked CS - either stick with it or pick up basket weaving. We need more elite people in this field, not those who take the easy route so they can get into the same place to work that I do, make the same ammount of money as I do - and then spend all of my time holding their hands and answering questions.
--
Twivel
I knew nothing but BASIC when I was a kid. Then, when I went to college, the first programming language I signed up for was Assembly. I fell in love with it immediately; suddenly I had access to the full resources of the CPU, rather than being locked inside the protective bubble that is BASIC.
Aside from learning a lot about machine architecture, ASM really forces you to think about how to solve a problem. You don't have access to all kinds of libraries and fancy language constructs (unless you think "org 100h" is fancy). You want to multiply something larger than the machine's registers? You have to put some work into it. If your machine has 32-bit registers, and you need to work with a 64-bit number, you can't just mul two registers and expect to get the right answer. So assembly teaches a lot of logic and it sneaks in a little math as well.
Yeah, but in what field? What is true in one company may not be true in another.
If you ask me, it's BS designed to keep more professors employed. They should give you pass/fail on subjects not related to your major. Getting a D in physical geography should not stop you from getting into the school you want and majoring in CS or CIS. Go on, make nebulous arguments about how it shows you can "stick to it" or whatever. I'll still argue it's nonsense to punish a person for doing poorly in a subject that has NOTHING to do with that person's major.
When the layoffs come, most companies will be laying off the people who aren't essential to staff. In all of the companies I've worked with or in (contracted for a year, got to see quite a few in Silicon Valley), many of the essential people have no degrees, CIS, CS, or otherwise, beyond HS. Now, granted, I work in Systems Administration which puts me in the ops departments, not development; but these are the jobs that pay the same regardless of CIS or CS degrees, and are the sort this guy would probably get to with his attitude.
Now, which degree is better? I'm going back to school for CS, not CIS, after being in this field for the past few years. Why? I don't need any degree for CIS; I get better training in that on the field for that. The conferences and journals are my lectures and texts. I actually want a degree *because I like math*; I want to know far more about good design and algorithm theory than I can learn hacking up perl scripts for emergency bandaid purposes.
Besides, even as a sysadmin, the difference between good coding and adequate hacks makes a huge difference -- anyone can learn the latter, but in the end, the former stands tests of time, efficiency, and portability. All three of these *are* important in that long run. And coworkers, bosses, everyone notices who makes the code that lasts the longest (back to the original "who is essential" argument).
I guess my points are really: don't threaten with incoming layoffs... those will turn out to be as unpredictable as the entire history of this industry has been. However, the CS degree does indirectly effect that -- since it means a more solid understanding of the underlying essentials that makes what you do in the workplace mean so much more.
Gwendolyn R. Schmidt
I find it quite amusing that this fellow is agonizing over which degree to pursue because "computer science is more difficult by a factor of 10." At my school the CS students are the butt of almost every joke. The students in ECE (Electrical and Computer Engineering) have no respect for the CS students. Why? Because compared to the ECE program, the CS program is a cake-walk. Less science, less math (we take multi-var, they don't), lower course load (we take 6 courses per term, 5 for them), more electives (we don't get any, they get two or three a term), and less labs (we have between 3-5 per term). CS is where failed ECE students go.
There is no great difference between the two prorgams anywhere that I have seen other then the details of what is taught, for example encryption. You probably don't have that in CIS, but at the same time how often do CS majors use it? Not often. When it comes to making money right off the bat, if you don't get a great research of decent programming job you are going to make the same, doing CIS style tasks. Personally, I used to be a computer science and telecommunications major, but moved to history. Why? One was personal against those previous departments. But what pushed me over the edge was, while I love math, I suck at it, I will be honest, and it was killing me. Plus a liberal arts major and two tech minors look damn good on a resume. My job is a computer engineer, and I make more then all but maybe two friends I can think of off hand. So to consolidate, unless you truly push the programming/research angle of your CS degree, your going to end up doing the jobs of CIS students anyway, IT management, sysadm, webdev, etc.
"softmore" ?!?!?! Boy, the spelling on this site is atroshus.
Come on...I don't know what planet you guys are on, but here on earth, getting a degree in order to get a better job is a big factor with most people.
The fact is, the two degrees offer two distinctly different paths. The business classes provided by the CIS degree will help him if he ever wants to do more than just program. Look at how many "former programmers" are leading major software companies. In many cases, once their businesses took off, they didn't have time to go back to school and get an MBA.
Absolutely. I think one of the best measures of whether someone "gets" CS is whether or not they write programs with pen and paper. I don't mean that they do their production programming in a notebook; I mean if you're sitting in a cafe and you want to solve a problem. The major difference I see between mathematicians and computer scientists is that mathematicians will solve their problem in the cafe, where computer scientists will solve the problem of how to solve their problem, without actually finding the solution :)
Who would YOU pick for a programming job - resume A with the CIS degree, or resume B with the CS degree?
Ummm...maybe you're not familiar with the job market these days, but...
As someone who's work duties include, in addition to programming, interviewing potential engineering team members, I would extend generous offers to both candidates, and be lucky if even one of them called me back.
"How easy is it going to be for me to get a job?" and "How much will I be making?" are the wrong questions to be asking when choosing between CS and CIS. Your main concern should be what will make me a better programmer. This is an industry where performance is everything. When it comes time to promote someone, or determine the xmas bonuses, delivering quality code in a timely fashion is far more important than a college degree.
"Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos!"
What matters the most is experience and adapting to new environments. We have had people with CS degrees fresh out of college that barely know what they are doing. Someone like me with an AAS in Information Systems and 10+ years experience in the field can show that I can out-work them and write better programs. I also can adapt to new technology and new environments, a lot of the CS degreed people that our company hired can't adapt as well. Granted they may be able to do Calc in their heads and write up better report papers, but they just can't match my experience.
Oh yeah it was tough at first. I had to take warehouse jobs, then data entry, then computer specialist jobs before the Programmer / Analyst jobs, but after I had 10+ years under my belt, I became very valuable. I still have to help out CS degreed people learn how to program in VB or Active Server Pages or work with SQL statements. Maybe they can beat me in COBOL and RPG programming, but our company doesn't use that. Are our colleges teaching realavent information that graduates need to servive in the IS world?
Simply put they are not even close to the same thing. I have read many people trying to get this point across, but very few seem to understand this. CIS is a business degree! Those in the CIS programs know this and don't want to get a CS job. CIS is computer management and System Analysis... Those in CIS don't want to program or design computers, they want to work in business... Why is this concept so difficult to understand? And as for employability... If you don't already know, do a search on the Internet regarding the IS shortage... CIS professionals need not worry about getting and keeping their jobs.
It doesn't matter what languages you learn while you are in school, its the programing concepts and logic you gain while learning those languages that are valuable. Learning a new language isn't that hard once you have the basic concepts behind fundamental programming. We were taught C++ in our intro courses, but all of our later courses required us to do projects in C or Java. I haven't used C or C++ once since graduating and have learned 5-6 other languages in the 2 years I've been out.
Everyone should believe in something. I believe I'll have another beer.....
I agree with this and would just like to add that you make the decision on what you learn. Schools are there to provide guidance and make it easier for you to find your answers. I myself failed to prepare for college, took the CIS course at Devry and found myself buy books and learning on my own what I though I needed to learn, simple as that. Now i rant about devry, it is good if you have never touched a computer, or want to go in to electronic eng, but don't expect the classes to move at any normal speed. They cover the basics, then 3 semesters later they cover them again. The main positive is that you are always working in groups if possible, which simulates reality for 90% of the jobs out there.
I prefer the computer engineering degree. You have no business practicing software engineering with a liberal arts (CS) or business (MIS) degree. Sure, program all you want, but don't think of calling what you do "software engineering." If you don't believe me, believe the ACM, or read Steve McConnell's "After the Gold Rush."
4) CS degrees are geared towards developing you into a CS professor Nowadays I would aim at a CIS degree and then get a certification (like MCSE, MCSD, or Oracle DBA). You need some pratical training to along with the academia. I've probably hired 40 programmers in the past four years and most have been CS majors but lots of math, CIS, and a couple history/music types sprinkled in. When the job ad reads: "Wanted: Java programmer for excited new yada yada yada" -- you need to know Java, structured programming, OOP, working with a devopment team, testing tools, CASE tools, etc. If you have all those wonderful skills you have a fair chance of landing the job. Now if you're bent on becoming an architect of doing research you should consider the CS route but that's mostly because programming has changed due to component driven programming. Most software dev shops don't want you writing sorting algorithms on their dime. So whether you know that the Big O of Heapsort is n log n makes a scant bit of difference. Go with what you enjoy. If you don't like math and like hands on then do CIS. You'll be in good shape either way.
Out of High School I was able to get a job as a programmer and I out program some of the emploies with CS degrees. Now I am in my Senior College Year in CS and I am know more then my professors in certon areas. Taking A CS degree with all the math and CS courses my programing ability is much higher then it was when I started. (It is because I pushed myself to become better) While at my scool the CIS (Equilivalent Majors) Teach programing skill but not the entire problem solving abilities as well as the CS degree. Computer Science is not all about computer programing as it is normally though to be it is the study of Computation and Problem solving. Although programing computers aids us in this study it is not nessarsary the end all to CS. I have found working with CS also helps in my understanding in Psycholgy, Physics, Math, Chemistry, Socoligy and Phlosophy. The CS Degree is used to make people better problem solvers not just better programers. CIS on the other hand is more geared towards programing the computers for more buisness usages. Although you will learn just the technical aspects Programing and some of the problem solving skills. CIS is not as robust as CS and a CS degree is more helpful further in the future when the computers we learn to work with become out of date. CS has the skills to learn new languages and arcecture much more easily then with CIS. Alther there are a Lot of CIS Students who are Better then CS students factors like how much effert they put in the classes counts too. I have seen people who are GunHo in CIS compared to someone who is WishyWashy in CS. THe CIS will out perform the CS major but if you take two equal people and give one CIS and one CS the CS would be more adaptable.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
What you should look at is where you want to be 5-10 years down the road. If you want to be in software development, go for the CS degree. If you want to administer a WinNT network, then you may want to go for the CIS degree. If you can afford the time and money, another option is to get BOTH the CS and the CIS degrees.
Using myself as an example, I decided to pursue the CS degree because I wanted to spend time writing computer games. However, after going through three years of college, I've decided that I still want to program, but I also want to be in business for myself. I have one semester left on my CS degree, but I have decided to quit my job and pursue my business interests. In five years, I see myself making at least $75,000 a year in passive income, and I'll be enjoying the pleasure of working on an open source project in my leisure time.
I opted for the CIS route vs. the CS route, mainly because I was tired of math by the time I reached college. For the most part, what you say held true for me. Still, I never considered any major more than just memorization. Sure, you've got the occassional exceptional prof. that really sticks it to ya (a good thing), but for the most part, read the book, memorize the facts, take the test, rinse, repeat. . .
Programming was the other big difference I noticed b/t CS and CIS. In CIS we had the usual crapload of COBOL (why!?!?!) and C/C++, VB, Basic, CICS (I honestly liked this one). If a person where to really enjoy programming as a living, CS is probably the better route, because they stressed programming more. Their C class was better, and they also did assembly, a tad of pascal etc.
I didn't want to program, at least not exclusively. My interests were more support/admin type stuff, which I'm happily doing with my bba/CIS degree.
I guess it all boils down to what you want to do AFTER college. Pick the one that best prepares you for the road you wanna take. As for the two being interchangeable, what I've found is that there are many CS jobs I don't feel qualified for, but in the jobs I do feel qualified for, there has been no difference in salary b/t the two degrees.
-Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.
I've never seen someone get fired b/c their degree was the less popular of two similar fields of study. Maybe b/c said person is a jackass, or can't find the light switch, but b/c their framed piece of paper is one letter different? Come on. I've got a CIS degree, and will be the 1st to tell you that it's crap, but that piece of paper was merely filling one of the pre-req's of the workforce. Get a friggin degree. 99% of what I see says CS/CIS or equivalent anyway.
Now I work a job I enjoy (98% of the time). It's in support/admin which many of you will laugh at, but I like working with people, not stuck in a chair 70-80 hours a week. Here, I get to walk all over the plant (power plant) and talk with folks ranging from nuclear engineers to illiterate custodians. My efforts are appreciated and not a day goes by that I don't get to make somebody's day. I also like the fact that I get to play with all sorts of new shit as it comes down the line. Well, maybe if I were a full-time programmer I could afford to just buy this stuff, but it's nice enough to let the company foot the bill.
Will I get fired in times of recession? Maybe. But considering that I do the work of 4 without realizing it, can be civil with damn near anybody, and genuinely enjoy my work, I doubt it. They're much more likely to fire the guy with the bloated salary and sense of self-importance than the guy that's known to do a great job AND is easy to get along with to boot.
-Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.
Computer Science is no more about about computers than telescopes are about astronomy
Dikstra
And of course CIS is for people who can't do math. If you're in it for the money you don't deserve an answer, if you're in it for the love no answer is needed, you already know that CS is the way to go.
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
from my experience:
CS = UNDERSTANDING of computer technology from the ground up, including old antiquated tech. Lots of programming and math involved.
CIS = APPLICATION of computers in a business environment. Emphasis on current tech and specific applications. May also include a foudation of business classes (management, accounting, econ, and even marketing)
I have a Bachelor's in CIS, but started off in CS. The reason I switched was CIS had a better program in my college (Rhode Island College). Sometimes I wish I had gone into CS, other times I don't. If you wish to code I recommend CS.
I graduated 2 years ago, and my current position is Network Support Specialist.
Having moved from australia to england, ive found that my vast experience counts for very little, so unfortunately i have to waste my time getting certificates to prove what i already know ://
Uhm... I have to disagree with you. I'll make my point on the actual topic in a moment (tho' it's unlikely this will ever get read, being buried, as it is, in the thread). I had what I thought of as noble intentions of shedding the CS industry altogether and getting my BS in Bioloogy and do pure research and that kind of BS. Then I realized how many unemployed Biology Ph.D.'s there are out there, when I remembered something my father, one of the most intelligent people I know, and an extremely accomplished Civil Engineer and ex-Army Nuclear Intel. agent told me; "You go to school for one reason and one reason alone... To learn to make more money. Intellectual pursuits are fine, but if you aren't learning to make more money, you are wasting your own money, and your life. If you want to learn just to learn, do it when you are old and retired with little better to do."
He's entirely right. I love learning, and biology as well, but I know technology much better than better than I do biology, which is why I'm majoring in both. And in the technology buisness, is where the where the money is. So if it comes down to classes you don't enjoy versus classes that could make you money, and would probably be more enjoyable for you... I think the answer is obvious.
I have yet to meet (which is not to say that I never will) a Hardware Engineer with a CIS degree. Programmers come from everywhere. I meet CS people in every aspect of the field, but not *so* much outside of pure hardware or software engineering. If you wanna be a programmer, you should prolly stick with CS. If you don't want to be strictly a programmer, but want to do networking, IT management, etc., go CIS, and take a few more programming classes, just so you know how and can prove it. Either degree can be invaluable depending on your applications of it and what you want to work as. Think about what you want to do for the rest of your life, and talk with your advisor.
"Inveniemus Viam Aut Faciemus" 'We will find a way... Or we will make one!' --Hannibal of Carthage
Uhhh... I know more than a few CIS majors who would be rather insulted by that statement. I've known more than a few MIS VP's and Managers who were CS majors who didn't know RJ45 from their own asses. Hell, one of 'em even decided it would be a good idea to bundle (zip-tied... TIGHTLY) all the network cables together, and then figured it would be an even better if she bundled the network cables with power cables and video cables, etc... And then wondered what was causing the network to glitch and shut down several times a day. I know a CIS major who is employed by Network Associates to attempt to hack networks applying for government contracts. He also happens to be a decent programmer and hardware engineer. MIS implies Dilbert's boss, and is not necessarily CIS. MIS is something a management type would take. CIS is a computer science class with a more broad focus than CS, that someone who doesn't want to be a programmer or hardware engineer (like myself) takes.
"Inveniemus Viam Aut Faciemus" 'We will find a way... Or we will make one!' --Hannibal of Carthage
Alot is not a word, darling. An error such as this on either your resume or cover letter would essentially end your candidacy for any job I've ever had. Luckily, there are plenty of words in the dictionary, and anyone can use them... with or without a degree!!
Not necessarily true. I did a BS in CS and I was able to fit in four semesters of Japanese, two semesters of photography, a jewelry course and a semester abroad in Australia. It required some extra work, but not unusually high course loads (~18 hours a semester). I think most schools have the flexibility to let you tailor your courses to a degree.
Derek
Don't Panic...
I'm in computer science at Iowa State University and we pretty much make fun of the MIS (CIS) students here, calling them CS dropouts (which is usually the case). But, then again, the computer engineering students usually poke fun at us, too.
I have a coworker that graduated MIS and I'm about ready to graduate and we'll make the same, pretty much, but you can still tell a difference in level of understand. I get more development tasks and have a deeper knowledge of (hold your breath) Windows programming, although a lot of that wasn't acquired through school. But the theory is still taught (which they tell me is good) so if you can handle it, my suggestion is take CS instead of CIS.
Of course, CprE does seem to offer a whole lot more as far as opportunity, pay, and, of course, work load!
I still have one more year for this choice but I definitely agree with the guy that said you'd better not go to school at all if all you want it for is a good CV. IMO education is not that important once you get to make personal contact with the people, e.g. interview or show them what you've done before. On that matter - why don't you sit down and contribute to some open source project? This really gets all the points for job acceptance :-)
It all depends on which school you go to. I'm in CIS and the only real diffence between CS and CIS at my school is that CS majors take physics and an electrical engineering degree and CIS majors take a some business classes. CIS is a better major if you're looking towards becoming a manager.
Computer Information Systems?
Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.
If you want to do software development/engineering, then you should go with the CS. If you want to do something other, like testing or system engineering, than the CIS may be good for that.
There is a reason that CS is much harder to get, and that translates directly to being able to do well in an interview. The better you know your stuff, the better you can do in an interview. Yes, you can know your stuff and have a CIS and still get that great job, but it all boils down to how well you can relate what you know to the interviewer.
Getting the CS is not going to be considered a negative in any way, and since your job right now is to get the degree, you might as well go with the sure thing. If you go with the CIS and then realize down the road that you should have gone with the CS, well, that just sucks.
My sig left me for a younger user id.
I'm a little biased, my degree is in math and I picked up CS on the side. However, I am a developer and was a technical manager at my last job. From my observations, people who are good at math make good developers, people who aren't don't. While linear algebra is useful at times, it's not really the skills acquired from math that matters. Rather it is a set of common traits of mathematicians and programmers that indicates to me that the two fields are linked. Both need to have analytic minds, patience, and commitment to be really good at their jobs. Like many other engineering disciplines, math is used in a CS program to cull those people who lack the required mindset from the rest of the herd. It's not likely that a CS student will get a chance to work on a major project before his or her junior or senior year. By then it would be rather late for that student to find out they hate their field. The University forces engineering students to take math classes in order to let them decide early whether they should rethink their choice of careers. Your University believes (as do I) that if you can't get through the core math classes you aren't cut out to be a programmer, engineer, or systems administrator for that matter. I do know several people who don't have degrees at all and are great programmers. However, each of them could have easily completed the Math part of a CS degree; they just didn't feel like taking Social Science, English, etc. As for management, I don't think I would work for a company that lacked real programming experience and analytic skills in its management. The technology moves very quickly, development is riddled with unknowns, and programmers tend to walk out mid-stream on pointy haired bosses. A lack of experience from above is a recipe for disaster. With that said, you will probably get a decent job with a CIS degree. Someone has to maintain the Intranet, develop the Enterprise Visual Basic apps, and QA the product. But you won't get the prestige, promotions, and babes (jk) the guys with the CS degrees get.
I just graduated in May. I started working for a company and I thought the pay was decent. Come to find out they pay Computer Science majors the same as Information Systems majors.
I work with a guy who is an IS major. I easily do twice the amount of work, and it is significantly harder(I can honestly say that cause he does no work) and our pay is the same. ARG! They say that in the long run I'll make more/move up faster, but I don't think so. His uncle works here too (coincidence? NAH!)
I'd take the easier route and enjoy college more, or concentrate on something you like to do. I just have average computer skills. I'm improving quickly but I'm not a standout,yet. But I do work hard (which makes up for a lot).
I'd have to agree with the math and physics remarks. I feel you get a much better education in the pure sciences than in the engineering disciplines. Where I went to school (University of Washington and Stanford) if you majored in MIS (Biz school) or CS/CE (Engineering school) you missed out on taking many of the general education requirements. Foregin language, philosophy, economics, and real (i.e. upper division) science classes. At the time most people didn't think they we're always missing out, but in reality those requirements are there for a reason.
I always found the most intelligent people in the universitiy were found in the Physics and Math departments, but would also take humanities classes. These people always annoyed me because they were so dam smart! The engineers had no time to take these classes. (Note: I'm neither a physics or math major) Also the skills you learn won't become useless in 3 years. Some of the stuff will be useless before you learn it (general relativity, quantum elecrodynamics, fourier transformations) but much more interesting.
As someone who hires developers and managers from time to time I'd much prefer to see a physics degree than a CS degree!
A CS degree may sound a little more prestigious to the first company that hires you, but I think that CE, CS, and CIS all would give you enough of the fundamentals to enable you to grow and take on anything in the software world. The real training begins, not ends with graduation.
College is not about the first job you'll get out of school. Rather, it's a preparation for the rest of your life...for *all* of the jobs you'll have. Sure, right now, CIS might pay as well as CS, but that will probably change 5-10 years down the road. Moreover, *you* will change during the next 5-10 years. Maybe you'll want to do something else with your life -- but if you don't have a more general education, that will be impossible, you'll be trapped! Math is never easy for anyone. For what it's worth, the math required for most CS degrees is much easier than for electrical or mechanical engineering. But math is the great societal dividing line -- it will determine what you can and can't do in your career like nothing else. Like a good workout, it's worth it in the end. "Pain is weakness leaving the body. -- USMC"
...-.-
For instance, suppose some part of the project required a parser. Programmers I've encountered who come across this problem without the benifit of a CS degree go "a parser, that'll be easy, I can do that", and for the most part they're right. The thing is instead of a lex tokeniser you get a unmaintainable lump of string comparisons, and instead of a yakk (or handwritten LL) parser you get huge nest of swicth statements. Often the two are mixed together.
Hey, it works!
(Then some selfish bastard asks to add another statement to the syntax)
The things a CS degree taught me that I didn't know I didn't know are the important ones, while I might have to brush up a bit on compiler design to write a parser, I now know I have to brush up on compiler design.
Having said all that, CS Graduates can't code for squat, so work (or hobby) experience with programming is also needed.
I'm a CS major at ASU, and it's royally tough to keep my good GPA. I know I could go to CIS and play it easy for the rest of college, but is it really worth it? I know you don't want to spend your money on calc classes, but would you rather spend your money on classes that are beneath you? (Sorry to offend you CIS people out there, but it's a graveyard for CS students who couldn't cut it). I know this sounds cliche, but hard classes breed character and problem solving ability. You will also be taught how to code with better style and design, although I think that academia goes to far in this repsect sometimes.
I graduated from the Univeristy of York in 1987. One of the things I learnt there was C programming. I spent today writing C code. That seems more than three years.
Actually, the kind of stuff you learn on a computer science degree has remarkable longevity. The major concepts behind operating system design haven't changed for 30-40 years (e.g. virtual memory and paging were invented in the 50s). A graduate who learned to program on Algol 60 wouldn't have much problem with modern block structured languages although the OO concepts behind Java and C++ might be a bit confusing at first.
Avoid degrees with too specific courses. e.g. if you get taught "programming in Java" you will be able to program in Java. If you get taught "programming" and you get exposure to several different languages you will realise that the skill is programming and any individual language can be learned in an afternoon with a good book on the subject.
All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
I am currently at RIT (Rochester Institute of Technology) working towards my degree in Information Technology. This seems to be the best of both worlds for me. It is not computer science, and it is deffinately not CIS. You end up with a much more well rounded experience with an IT degree. It covers Networking, programming, web design etc.. etc... etc... In my experience (which was Drop out of college, work for a TLA employer for three years, then go back for my degree) a well rounded employee with experience across the many different fields in technology today is most usefull. But that is just my opinion ... I could be wrong.
It depends on what you expect to gain. In terms of value on the job market, either is a credential that indicates your ability to complete something. Learning something relevant is a different animal...
If you intend to pursue a technical career path, choose the CS program. If you plan to be a business manager, you will probably get more out of the CIS deal.
My personal decision came at the halfway point while cursing physics labs and worrying about Calculus. When I looked ahead and had to decide whether strategic management or compiler theory supported my own ambitions, I went with CIS. Amazingly, the education has paid off in spades, especially the decision support and system design stuff.
Now leave me alone so I can make this VCR quit flashing 12:00!
I graduated this past year with both degrees, Computer Science and CIS - And wow, they are quite a bit different.
CS - More technical. For people who like programming, or computer consulting. Really, for people who KNOW computer software and want to get their hands dirty. More math and a LOT more computer science classes.
CIS - Much less technical. This major was like a walk in the park compared to CS. You have all the business classes for one, so I guess you are more well-rounded. But where I graduated, there was like 1 CS class (as opposed to like 12 cs classes with the CS major), and 3 or so CIS classes, which were very easy after you've been through CS - because you are taking the classes with business students, many have never programmed. The teachers in my CIS programs were horrible (with exceptions). Whereas the CS had Professors left and right. However, even with all the bashing of CIS, it was a useful major because it gave more hands on of current technology (MS at the school i was at), ASP, frontpage, access. Not too many things I'd use in full production, but useful to get feet wet. Whereas CS was more theory and coding C/C++ on a linux server.
Both majors pay well however, I could not tell a bit difference. But, if you want to have some fun, take an easy major and do not intend on doing hard programming in college, go for MIS. If you really do want to program, and want to learn data structures and all the fun CS stuff, go to CS.
Kevin
I am CS student at ETHZ in Zurich and I really enjoy studying stuff like maths, algorithms, complexity, logic and so on. Something similar to CIS can also be studied at Zurich University. The trend is mainly to try studying CS first, and people who don't manage to pass the exam usually migrate to CIS where they often do not have big problems in programming oriented courses. Many companies here do not make big differences between CS and CIS students and I think that your choice should really depend on your goals: if you plan to work in big companies like banks or industry you shouldn't study CS. CS is cool if you want to do for example research. If you like to hack, well, there's EE as well. I don't even find math in CS courses that difficult: I've always loved math and I often go to lessons for mathematicians so I really realized that maths for computer scientists is really easier. Have fun
I went to a trade school for 18 months, and I make as much money as the guy sitting next to me that has a masters.
I didn't have to wait 8 years, so I actually have made more money. Now if you want to teach, thats another story, for now.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Total credits: ~60 (I went to night school during the AF days) :)
Total non-credited hours: ~30 or so
On the job experience: Priceless.
And personally- I'd hire someone who's figured stuff out on their own faster than someone with an MCSE or other acronymmed cert. Oh, and I'm with you on the hating math. I failed Calc twice. But I'm a sysadmin; I don't use anything much above algebra these days. (figuring out the optimum amount of partitions in a RAID set and what level to raid at, for example. :P )
-- F.S.
Yes, CS will be a relatively difficult course of study, on par with any engineering degree. But, think before you make a jump to an easier program for the short term benefit of more free time. Challenging yourself now will pay dividends the rest of your professional life. The CS degree provides you the fundamentals that everything in computers are built on. Learn that stuff well, and you can take your career whatever direction you want.
Just remember - computers weren't invented by computer scientists, they were invented by mathematicians. John von Neumann didn't have a degree in CS. Neither did Alan Turing. It makes me a little sad when people treat college as just a springboard to a well-paying job. It really is a unique, once in a lifetime opportunity to expand ones horizons and learn to think about things deeply, and develop a deep appreciation for the world of ideas. Not just lucrative ideas, either. Don't skimp on the history, philosophy and art. These are part of what defines humanity. If you just want to make piles of money, why waste your time in college? Go off and be a stockbroker.
When I went to school, we had a number of 'weeder' classes, that would seperate the CS students from the weak that were trying to push their way through the major. Most of us survived, and we became part of the 10% of engineers that actually make the planet work, not one of the parasitic manager types who take from the work that our 10% perform. Even now when I see a CIS student come in for a job, I'd rather hire an English student before the CIS person. I'll practically throw the CIS person's resume away because I know that person doesn't feel the passion for coding deep down inside.
Excellent Topic, I am in the Exact same situation as you and have asked myself the same questions. I went to the IS manager at my company and asked to have lunch with him. During this lunch, I felt that he did not think it mattered much, unless you were going into software engineering. If your hope is to work on the latest 3d games and software, then you NEED to know the math, otherwise most of it is useless for most of the things IT people do (networking, installing systems, upgrading, databases, etc.) Since I don't want to program all that much, I am now enrolled in the CIS program at my school.
Boy I don't agree here! School (college) IS just to get a job. At least it was for me and everybody else I know. Of course, if I was inherently wealthy, I could have taken what I wanted to take, but instead all I got was this stupid CS degree and a well paying job.
...18...19...20 Submit
Reemi
First, from an employers point of view I would say that the vast majority of CS/CIS related jobs do not care if you have a degree in accounting, physics, art history, nor even if you have a degree at all.
:), to every rule.
At our company we grill the candidate on the technical subjects they will be dealing with and try to evaluate whether their personality fits in with our team. If they know their stuff, and they have a good personality, they get hired, period. If they really know their stuff, then we don't even look at personality that much (assuming they aren't such a bad fit personality wise that we wouldn't be able to work with them).
We don't even look at whether they have a degree, how long their work experience is, etc. etc. We also evaluate them and make their salary offer based solely on their technical knowledge, not their current position or years of experience, etc. As a specific example, we hired someone who had spent the last couple years as a pastry chef in France to do EJB programming, because he proved in the interviews that he could.
Sure this won't be the case everywhere, but it's fairly typical and the bottom line is that degrees in general tend to show only that you can stick with something and follow through till the end, rather than that you are an expert or even competent in any one subject.
As an aside on the subject -- I dropped out of college after 2 years. I now drive a 2000 benz with the license plate "DROPOUT". I saw a route to big bucks that I could take without "wasting my time" in college. Looking back on it, I think the only reason I was wasting my time is because I was working on a CS degree and I already knew most of what was being taught to me.
If I had it to do all over again I would have either taken a subject more interesting to me, or perhaps even gone for a general studies degree and taken a wide variety of classes from English to History to Theatre etc to try to broaden my own background and general knowledge... or I would've gone for a degree that would really be useful in proving I know something -- for example a business degree.
It only takes me a few minutes of talking to someone that understands computers to make it clear to them that I really know what I'm talking about on the subject of computers, however no matter how well I can expound on quantitative analysis theories, no one is going to take me seriously as an applicant for an MBA type of position unless I have an MBA. It's also a lot harder to pick up the fine points of accounting principals or market analysis at home in your basement when you're a teenager, whereas it's pretty easy to pick up the fine points of UNIX in the same situation.
One problem with this is that I never would've expected that I would care about any business subjects because I was always convinced I was going to be a full time computer nerd no matter what. While I never would have suspected it, the truth is that at every job I have I get progressively more involved with how my group, or department, or perhaps the whole company is utilizing technology in a business context -- are we marketing it well, are our development practices efficient, are we pricing it right, are we missing opportunities to monetize it, etc.
I never thought I would be interested in the business side of things because I always thought it was dry and boring stuff, but especially when you find yourself in a position where you have a substantial stock package and your net worth is drastically affected by how well the whole company is doing you start thinking about the bigger picture and getting more involved. And when you get more involved and you have more responsibilty and ability to affect change you start wishing you had more background in business so you could be more effective.
On the other hand, who knows, perhaps you know for sure you hate business and would never be interested in it. My point is still that you should either take classes you are interested in (to broaden your own knowledge -- it'll be easier anyway if it's a subject you are interested in) or in a subject you think will help you later on. A business degree just happens to be the best example I can think of where college is the only (or at least best) chance to attain the knowledge.
As a secondary aside, I always end up in debates with my roommate who has a CS degree with a minor in math about how useful college is. The general essence of his arguments never boils down to anything about field-related knowledge that he gained about CS or Math, but rather that he things he is a much more well rounded person for having gone to school and had the experiences he has had. Living in the dorms. Moving off campus. Spring break. Yadda yadda yadda. Despite the fact that I dropped out, and that I argue with him about it, I tend to agree. I know a lot of people who either never went to school or dropped out early that just don't really seem to have such a good grasp on life. They don't have the confidence, the social skills and so on that seem to come easily to even the bluntest of the college grads I know. Of course I like to think their are exceptions, like myself
And last but not least, the one really important thing is just to get through college now while you're young because no matter what you tell yourself if you don't do it now you're not going to finish it up later. The only people that ever bother going back to school later are the ones that are already retired or independantly wealthy and are just doing it because it's interesting to them.
Wow. I didn't realize I had such a lengthy opinion on the subject. Anyway, I'm sure I could continue at great length about this subject or all sorts of other issues that are tangential to this subject (such as the "do whatever makes you happy RIGHT NOW (i.e. drop out and get a job like I did) versus investing time now for the future type of stuff) so feel free to e-mail me.
I know for a fact, and from experience that larger companies pay a difference for the degrees simple because of what recently happened to me. I applied at a larger company (Nameless b/c all is not finished with negotiations yet), and was told I would be brought on for say... 60k... then told two weeks later after they had done background checks, that they have to knock that down b/c I don't have the 'higher' degree, no matter what that degree in, it's part of company regulation (the boss that is hiring me didn't know it was in place), so I would go with the higher degree... I would have earlier if I wasn't such a dope and exploring the world on my own... to each their own path.
/* The gun in my mouth looks real and a taste that blew my mind.*/
Get CS, you don't need to know how to spell. Cs will make you better at everything. You actually learn how to program right, not throw crap together using simple scripting languages.
I have been told by alot of graduates that CIS and CS majors are being hired for the same job for the same money. Is this true?
Yes.
There are two kinds of people in the world: Those with good memory.
To piggy back on this, whatever you major in, get experience while you're in school. Do internships, do pet projects that you can point to in interviews, whatever it takes so you have some practical experience you can put on a resume or mention in an interview.
I didn't do this, and had a hell of a time getting even a foot in the door in the area of the country I wanted to work. (New Orleans, LA: not exactly a high-tech mecca) With even one decent summer job or internship, I would have had a lot more options.
PeterI wouldn't waste my time on CIS. There is no real way to teach the management of IT: you're either a manager or you're not. "Sort of" learning computers just makes you a dangerous manager. CS is a science, which means butt-busting work. Usually, the professors try to kill the students. But whoever crawls out alive at the end of the semester is usually pleasantly surprised. So, surviving the "psych-out" is half the battle. In general, a CS curriculum is designed to put you in the ballpark of big-league programming. It might not set you up specifically for any one project or brand or paradigm, but you'll be hired on the basis that a CS degree proves you can handle big league IT issues.
--- WWSD? What Would Strider Do?
I did a CS degree long ago, and I believe that it has helped me much more than a CIS degree ever would have. That being said, there was a lot of stuff in CS that I don't use. For instance, I never use calculus.
I believe my degree would have had a lot more relevance to my job if it had included subjects like configuration management, project management, and writing good documentation. In other words, I think a Software Engineering degree is much more useful than CS or CIS. It should include a lot of CS (algorithms and data structures), but it should also include all the other skills developers use that are generally neglected in CS curriculums.
I can't see someone doing something they hate for forty years.
Here's the deal:
Yes, you can get the same "job" for the same salary because the HR people do not quite understand the difference.
However, you run the risk of working for some crusty curmudgeon like myself who will expect the following of you, regardless of degree:
1) knowledge of data structures, algorithms, and O notation (that was a capital o, BTW).
2) knowledge and use of scientific method applied towards debugging.
3) even doing business "stuff" I expect people to know math.
4) basic compsci stuff like regex, scripting languages, ability to read rfcs to figure out comm protocols, knowledge of 10 different programming languages, OOP basics, functional basics, ability to debug without a debugger, etc.
And while you may have "gotten the job with the minimal of effort" you will then have to do the CS degree work on your own time to be able to keep the job, get a big raise, etc.
I am reminded of the part in Joe Versus the Volcano: "I know he can get the job, but can he keep the job."
Just my $2*E-02, I could always be wrong.
Polar bears are rectangular bears after a coordinate change.
At many universities(such as Illinois and Purdue) a CIS (Computer Information Systems) focuses on Systems Analysis/Design, Computer Programming, and Network Administration. CS (Computer Science) focuses on computer technology/engineering; such as designing modems, CPUs and motherboards. However, many other universities use the terms CS/CIS interchangeably; but usually (like job ads) are referring to what I defined CIS as being. At Purdue, where I attended college, CIS majors make, on average, quite a bit more that CS majors.
I am Slad.
"The first people to write databases did figure them out on the job."
The first people to figure these thing out took 20 years to reach the stage of an RDBMS. Do u seriously want the poor chap to reinvent the wheel.
Also the first people (sic) did not have week long deadlines and in todays world most CIS guys end up having managers who say -"The client needs this yesterday Get to work on it" Do u think in this situation anybody would be doing any "figuring out"???
**Life is too short to be serious**
Learn ANSI C. Write once, run anywhere (with a good makefile). :)
10b||~10b -- aah, what a question!
10b||~10b -- aah, what a question!
I hate to disagree, but the MIS program does not prepare you for coding solutions, like an accounting system. Most undergrad courses teach COBOL, VB, and /possibly/ VC++ in small snippets - editing/modifying simple parts of code, the Microshaft way. Make this form bigger, make more cells in this drop down box. Change the text, etc. Change the way these numbers are calculated. Enough to /maybe/ become familiar with the Programming IDE, and maybe some syntax, but not much more. Those MIS that are /very/ good are those that have some taken some algorithms classes, networking classes, and others which can be very difficult to learn on your own. I'm not saying that MIS majors are /not/ capable of coding, just pointing out that the undergrad program does not prepare them for software engineering of any type.
-forsetti
10b||~10b -- aah, what a question!
- Management -- Typically the CS major works late into the night developing. I develop, but half my time is spent trying to find ways to convince management that what we are working on is worth backing. The CS major is typically trained to interact with only the systems on which he or she develops on. While the typical CS major knows more technology than the typical *IS major, I feel that the interaction with management is stronger with IS because of the business training they endure.
- Clients -- This is a biggie. The CS major I work with hates clients. He would much rather they not exist. *IS majors, however, are trained to cater to clients. The typical *IS major understands that the technology is useless if clients can't be sought after to use it.
Now, I would not want to steer you either way. I suggest that with either choice, you need to be on top of things. You need to study outside of class. For example, as a *IS major, I knew that the technology tought would be limited. So I took the initiative to teach myself. In a Windows-based department, I embraced Linux and the open-source community and tought myself advanced web development and programming that I knew I would need later. As a CS major, you need to realize that business problems, management, and clients are a part of the deal. You should learn early how to deal with these. Education is a wonderful thing----
You can have my sig when you pry it from my cold dead......
But seriously, I'm currently studying Software Engineering at a well respected (they obviously looked at the research rather than the teaching quality) english university, and it's all a load of complete tripe. After a year if unchallenging, rarely interesting material I really can't see the point in being there (except to enjoy the social life). After all a GCSE level (16 year old exam) statistics class is really gong to help me after two maths 'A' levels (18 year old exam).
Believing that the lecture classes of 200 without any tutorial support(at least then someone would know how easy the material was) is useful is also a big mistake (although vaguely understandable given the chronic underfunding of UK Higher Education). Yes I will probably get a first with little effort and I certainly enjoy the social life, but I'm sure I should have been challenged somewhere along the line.
Don't believe what they say in the prospectus!
Laurence
Yes, CS has a lot of math, but that is the nature of the beast. I myself am glad that I stuck with CS and finished as a CS major. There is nothing wrong with CIS, but I feel better prepared for the computing industry with a CS degree.
IANAL... But I play one on
One could think of it like this: CS is to Physics as CIS is to Theoretical Physics
thelocust[dot]org
If you are only interested in getting a job then go to a Tech school. The people I have known with two year tech degrees could write code around are people with 4 year degrees and were paid well. If you want to learn more about the world and life then go to the university and stress about getting done if 4 years take your time and take a few courses that have nothing to do with your major. it will be your last chance without all of lives other problems to deal with. If you are good the money will still be there when you graduated. Make friends for they will be the best friends you have. After graduating you tend to have co-workers that come and go but not the true friends that you make in college.
All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence and then success is sure - Fortune Cookie from an long lunch
I looked at the same decision when I was in school (I've been out a year and a half). Here's what I've noticed, having had friends in both areas, and having helped recruit for a large company. The CS department was definitely the tougher school, and the students learned *a lot* more, but when it came to the jobs, the companies wanted people with business skills as much (if not more) than technical skills. (Note - this isn't sour grapes - I got a business minor and got the best of both worlds). Also, it seems that managers (the people that hire) are more comfortable with business students, since they have similar backgrounds and experiences. My company recruits 3-4x as many CIS students as CS students every year.
The argument I would make is that, even though I could have gone CIS, and it would have been easier, I'm much happier and better prepared having had the CS degree. It helps to know why things work, and not just what the tools are.
I started out as a Computer Science major and then moved to CIS. The main reason being my faulire to grasp second semester calculus ;)
Unfortunately the CIS program at my "school" Indiana University... was technically lacking... we had seniors who had never used FTP... nor knew what it was. So... in my experience the best plan would be to get a major in one and a minor in the other... alternating the major as your skills and interests dictate.
The CIS program I was involved with was part of the business program at IU, so it tended to be more dimwitted folks... people who would NEVER have been able to take a single CS course...
best of luck in the choices...
It has been my experience that most people will be able to recognize the fact that you have been doning 10X times work than the CIS/MIS people. I think that you will get more respect for pulling off the harder degree.
I Also think that you'll get paid more for having a degree at all verus not having one regardless of how good of a programmer you are.
-- If i knew what i was doing i'd make sure not to do it again --
I too had the same problem. Went into school as a CS major, reqlized programming wasn't my knack, so I switched to CIS, after a semester of that I was doing poorly in my calc classes, because I lack how do you say, critial thinking skills? So I too the next route and went to MIS. Which is much more tailored to my style of learning. Much to my surprise I learned that MIS majors could actually make more $ then CS and CIS majors, and they got more benefits since they more likely to be the supervisor of CS and CIS majors.
If you want them to integrate, you'd better provide bounds. Otherwise, you should ask for the antiderivative.
-----
You will have a better grasp on many different concepts and kinds of concepts than otherwise. The math is not just an end unto itself. It helps you train HOW you think, not just what you think.
Believe me, I know it can be very frustrating. I know CS is not for everyone. If there is no possibility you will enjoy it, then do something else you will enjoy. But DO NOT switch just because somethinge else is easier. That would be a mistake.
One more thing: This field offers good opportunities to BS grads right now. This encourages many people (like me) not to go on and get the Masters or Doctorates. Guess what? That can spell trouble later. There may well become a glut of BSs and not enough higher degrees. When and if that happens, us CS guys will have it hard enough. You really won't want to be the bottom rung of the ladder in that case.
Go do the best you can at something you want to say you accomplished. Don't take the easy way out. School is not a very accurate picture of work. Work has been MUCH more enjoyable for me than school was.
However, don't be scared to chase the thing you will want to be doing in 10 years. If CS isn't for you, find what is, then do that well. The point is, whatever you choose to do, do it well.
I'll never hire you!
Maybe if your're working for some LAME-ASS DOTCOM, but real companies doing cool things do know the difference.
I routinely ask people calculus questions on job interviews!
Really? I work for an old, established company that does cool things. Maybe it's time for you to dust off your resume!
There is the academic world and there is the business world. One is concerned with the pursuit of knowledge, and the other with the pursuit of wealth. There is an arrogance on the part of some in the business world to refer to their world as the "real" world, but the truth is that academia and business are different institutions with different goals, demands, and realities.
It's quite true that if you take a pure academic and plunk him down in business, he's often going to flounder. But the converse is true as well: if you take a skilled, talented middle management person from a corporation and plunk him down as a professor, he's generally going to flounder miserably under the realities of academic life-- at least, until he comes to understand that we're concerned with truths, not with merely immediate practical problems.
Nearly everything that the business world is engaged in today can be viewed as the spinoff from the truths which academics have pursued. Some businesspeople belittle academics by implying that our world is "unreal", but if it weren't for our contributions, they'd pretty much still be selling spices and furs.
Talk to the departments about where their graduates are going, then ask yourself which set of employers is more to your taste.
From what I've seen, it is largely untrue that you don't need a degree to get a development job. Granted, there are exceptions. If you have connections and skill you can get a development job. Going in cold, with no connections, however, you'll probably need a degree to get in the door, unless you've got some really impressive experience. Get the degree, you'll be glad you did.
You probably don't care but if you decide to change careers later...
The Patent & Trademark Office (PTO) will let you sit for the Patent Bar (you know that thing you must pass in order to submit patents to the PTO and 1/2 of what you need to work as a Patent Attorney) will very little hassle if you have a CS degree.
They will probably let you sit for the exam if you have a CIS degree but since it is not on their little list of acceptable degrees, you'll have a good deal of hoops to jump through.
I've seen an almost even distribution of endorsements for CS and CIS, and even a few for Math for the really, really smart guys.
In response the the original piece, and some of the replies, however, I'm going to add English to the list of considerations.
Signed,
A soft-brained liberal arts tree-hugging hippie freak lacking both the mental capacity and discipline for calculus. No, really. I mean it.
I'm a senior software engineer and next month will be moving to a senior lectureship in computing. I've taught core CS for seven years. I don't have a CS or CIS degree.
What I do have are a BS, MA, and ABD in math, and a natural science PhD (in computational neuroscience that I earned in a psychology laboratory). I also have 32 years of experience as a software systems engineer. I know how to solve problems and how to teach others how to solve problems.
The message--it doesn't matter what your degree is; someday you'll be out there in the real world solving problems. So study the things you will need to know to solve problems (lots of applied math) and plan to go back to school from time to time for a refresher.
Take this example...
...go figure
My sister has a BS in English
She's an IT person for a large Wall street company...
Or my example, BS Electric Engineering,
MS Computer Integrated Manufacturing.
Spend my days programming the UI for lab instrument's.
(And scare all the females away because I'm an engineer,
(or would that smoking protype board have something to do with it, FIRE!!!!))
Fire's out (time to hang in slashdot till my boss cool's down, couldn't of been my fault, I'm software),
In the past industry has said, get grounded in the real world and we will show you how to code it. The more you know outside of the computer, the more usable you are to an employer.
Being able to handle a fire exstinguisher is a real plus (oh boy...).
TastesLikerHerringFlavoredChicken
TastesLikeHerringFlavoredChicken
Norman Hawker Western Michigan University
My MIS degree falls under the business college and once I got there I realized the added bonus of learning all the other stuff of the business world such as Accounting, Marketing, Finance and Management.These skills have already served me quite well in the job I have while completing my degree. In truth all the MIS stuff I have taken was mostly so much BS and common sense. I have yet to learn something technical or interesting that I didn't already know by reading websites and picking stuff up on my own. But people love to see those credentials on a resume, nu? The business classes are by far more useful IMHO. Not having to ask the accountants for explanations on the budget is a GOOD THING.
Todd Huish
Eternal Student (7 years and counting!!)
Jesus may love you, but I still think you're an asshole -BVB
You can't just think about starting salaries and entry level positions. You are preparing yourself for a career that should last you the rest of your life! Take your time and take as many classes as you can afford. If you think you can pick something up later by taking another class or reading a book you either a) aren't working hard enough and I would fire you; b) don't have a life outside of work and I should fire you; or c) you aren't staying current with recent advances and again I would fire you! All fields move fast (some not as fast as computers) and if you intend to keep your job and possibly even get a raise you have to know what you are doing. If I can hire a fresh graduate that knows more than a current employee, who do you think will get laid off soon? I expect employees to become more valuable as they gain experience, if they don't I will find someone who does. With that said, take as many classes as you can, you can never know too much. Focus on what you enjoy and you will create a niche for yourself that makes you a valuable employee. College is just a few short years, you can get through it. Think how disappointed you would be if you took the easy route and found yourself getting passes over for promotion while young kids are becoming your superiors. A few years of hard work now will pay off down the road, simply because that is what employers are looking for! Karl Steddom, Ph.D.
I think the difference between CS and CIS is something that varies throughout every college in the nation. As a high-school senior, I have been looking into colleges and found that CIS (or IT) programs vary VASTLY from college to college. Some focus on the technical and networking aspects, etc...while other focus on the humanities aspect of teamwork, management, and being able to communicate effectively with others. IT all depends I think on whether you go to a technical school or not. I'm looking at a few schools, one of which is Carnegie-Mellon (famous for their CS programs) and from what I've seen, the CIS major there is a mix of both. You focus on development of programs, etc, and you also get the humanities aspect. Then of course, there's the optional 5th year masters degree in MIS, which is completely business oriented. The one general thing I keep hearing from all the colleges is that most of the CIS/IT people end up being the bosses of the CS people...I mean face it, unless you are a REALLY good coder, you can be bought at a dime a dozen. To find someone who has people skills, as well as a thourough understanding of computer knowledge is perhaps more rare. I think when it comes to the job market, an CIS major is much more likely to take a management position than a CS major...management skills are just not taught to CS people at most schools.
A "perspective" employer? I thought you said you were an English major.
- MFN
"Slow down, Cowboy! It has been 3 years, 7 months and 26 days since you last successfully posted a comment."
From my 21+ years in IT, I would say there is no advantage to taking a more difficult degree. One thing for sure, better with good grades in CIS than not-so-good grades in CS. Most in IT don't have either degree. Lots of re-treads for medical and everything else. My degree is math with cs concentration: a complete waste of time, effort, and money.
It's certainly worth wracking your brain to learn how to spell "sophomore".
Give me a break, you think we go out and spend $50000 just to expand our minds?!?!
Ups and downs?
Pros:
Cons:
- CS classes taught nothing about Sysadmin/Network stuff
- They tended to focus on more "academic" programming and less of the ugly kind of coding business apps often require
- Their operating environments usually didn't match those in the real world - like it or not there's a lot of M$ environments out there
- I never learned any businessy-type stuff.
So it's pretty much been a tossup. My CS background has allowed me to progress as a programmer and given me a competative edge there, but the lack of business knoweldge has handicapped me in other (and frankly I"m fine with them) ways.This is just my experience. YMMV.
----
----
"I used to listen to Null Device before they sold out."
After the first 5 years out of college, the degree doesnt matter. What does matter is your ability to do the job, learn new stuff, and perfect your current knowledge. Also throw in your ability to communicate and help others finish there projects. I own a company of computer 'nerds' and when they get to the stage where I would consider hiring them I dont even look at their degrees. I look at whats really in their brain and how do they handle. Then again a little extra money in those first 5 years is good too :)
My school (GMU) requires at least 26 math credits, but if you want ot take discrete, you must take 29 credits.
Yikes!
If you are doing this just to get a job you will soon be depressed, and looking to switch careers. If you do it because you love it and can't imagine doing anything else then you'll be happy regardless of pay, and, the pay will come anyways because you'll be so damned good at it.
If you are keen on being a manager read Dilbert and think better of it. If you are already more interested in managing than writing cool code it is hopeless.
As a practical matter the math involved in the CS might be useful if you were planning on writing code for DSP's, otherwise it is of questionable value. On the other hand if you're going to spend the same amount of time in school you might as well learn something challenging. Does your brain have a previous engagement?
CS degree loses currency within 3 years This has to be at troll. CS teaches you the theory of computation. Whether you're using pseudocode and an abacus or perl 8 on a pentium-VII 9000 doesn't really matter too much. Every CS graduate I know will pick up a new language in a couple of days, and a new concept in not much longer than that. The fundamentals of CS have stayed pretty constant for almost a century. As for management.. nothing stopping a CS student from studying other stuff on the side. I strongly recommend that any CS student take at least one subject in philosophy, arts, business or some cs-unrelated branch of science each semester, to broaden the mind - that is, be able to hold a conversation with a non cs major.
Software patents delenda est.
Ok, I'm coming from the perspective of someone who has a CIS degree, and is in management to a certain extent (project management). However, I'e been coding since I was 10, using a TI994A, and a large part of my day involves code (writing, reviewing, design, etc.), so here we go.
Neither degree is sufficient by itself. The need right now is for techies, of any flavor, who can communicate! I have found this to be the single biggest shortcoming of the college grads I interview for any position, whether they have a CS or a CIS degree. Whichever road you take, I would highly advise you to take electives in things like public speaking, technical writing, and something like advanced business writing. Also consider joining a group like Toastmasters, great for learning how to speak effectively.
Please understand, I am not saying that having a computer related degree is unimportant, ( we place more weight on a degree than on, say, a technical certification.) What I am saying is that technical people who can communicate effectively are somewhat rare, will continue to be somewhat rare, and those who can will continue to be worth their weight in gold.
Good luck to you in your pursuit
He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. - "Big Al" Einstein
There are a ton of people in the CIS/CS programs at my school who are only there because they want the money. However, upon working with them, they're useless. Completely and totally useless.
People seem to figure that if they have the piece of paper, people will just give them money. If you aren't in this for the love of it, then get the hell out now.
I took a couple years of CIS, and then found a great job coding, and now I've moved on to Net Admin for a while (it's a nice break) and should be back coding in a few months.
Sure, I'm making decent cash, but that's just a bonus. I'd be doing this stuff even if I wasn't getting paid (indeed I do do this stuff in my free time, and for friends, and what have you).
I studied Broadcast Journalism in College. Was national honors society. But I have been programming, mostly in c++, since '84. What is the university but a place where we learn how to learn? Then it is up to you!
CS is probably too theoretical - better if you want to work in a pushing-the-envelope type of job like developing new video codecs. These aren't exactly common.
CIS is, IMO, pretty unremarkable. A good degree, good jobs, but in a market downturn, you'll look like anyone with 3 yrs. job experience.
CS and Engineering has a more engineering focus and integrates hardware. This gives you a nice balance and is a bit more unique. This would put you in a good position for embedded programming - which is much more sensitive to hardware concerns than the usual PC/server level programmer.
Software Engineering is a newish field for basically applying traditional engineering practices found in industrial engineering specifically to software. Systems engineering is similar, but more broad including hardware and equipment, network infrastructure, etc.
Software engineers are trained to build very robust, mission critical, or highly distributed systems. Boeing primarily looks for SE and CSE for tasks such as programming the 777, missle systems, air traffic control systems, etc.
Should a serious market slowdown occur in the next 5 years (some people are predicting this, others aren't) I have doubts that either a CS or CIS degree will be worth much. The people with the most general degrees and experience are the first to be left behind in such circumstances. Don't try to 'get by'. Do the hard work, just in case...
Even now, we're starting to see some slowdown in CS hiring. It's tough to gauge because some industries are getting clobbered (necessarily and unnecessarily) and others aren't - yet. We've just entered the big hiring season and only the really big guns (IBM, Boeing, GM) have snapped up their 2001 grads. The next 6 months will be very telling...
Dude you hit it right on. I am a CS major but I working as a IT tech to get me though school (its amazing what kind of job you can get after just one semester of CS :) The shit I take on a daily basis is incredible people don't seem to understand what we do. They think we broke it when in fact it was Mr. Gates who did the dirty work we're just cleaning the shit up. (They also seem to forget that we can fuck there shit up, gotta love the administrative shares in NT). After working in Tech Supp. I know for a fact that I picked the right major CS all the way! I just keep telling my self 2 more years.
And the math is not that bad.
101010b 2Ah 52o
in Germany. I don't know how this is handled in the US but in Germany it does not realy matter what you study.
You study to expand your mind and to show that you are capable to learn and use stuff which you need at work.
The only thing that matters is what you realy can. In the extreme you even don't need to study if you somehow can evince what you can.
So i would say go into CIS and use your extra power to learn a few extra things or maybe to get a job.
For that matter that you have already worked in a company and have some experience in teamwork etc. is more important than what you study or your degree.
--
There is no such thing as gravity. The Earth just sucks.
I'd guess that this 'anonymous coward' isn't speaking from experience. There's a notable lack of former "xIS" weenies of any stripe in the executive ranks of most large companies. I know a great many more engineers, physicists, and pure MBAish sorts in executive slots. The IS track is self-ghetto-izing.
yes. you do.
Unless you understand limits of sequences of functions - not just the frosh calculus limits of sequences - you're faking the big "O" idea.
Honest - you've got to learn the real stuff.
and you'll always be behind the folks who know why one search is better than another, or what the order of an algorithm means, or really understand database normalization. If you ain't read Knuth, you're a poser.
Also keep in mind when it comes time for promotions and such you will be more qualified, or at least have more education.
In short I would say stick with it, don't drop down to get out of school faster, you will have the rest of your life to work make school count.
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Rubbersoul
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There are no problems only solutions
man
No manual entry for
Yeah, CIS will be easier. But unless you're really into what CIS is (as opposed to CS) you're going to be awfully bored, and you might get lazy. Why not take the more interesting and challenging route?
I'm a 3rd year CS major, and I'd have to say that these are very different courses.
CS is about HOW and WHY computer systems work. What can be acheived by them, what can't. How to make them do things.
CIS (assuming Information Science/Systems) is about specific aspects of computers. Designing/building information systems. Not general computer systems - INFORMATION systems.
Now, these two subjects overlap in many areas - both can involve much about AI and databases, for example. But the fundamental difference remains.
take AI: CS would teach general AI concepts. How and why each strategy to solve the same problem works. Where they fail. How to apply them.
CIS would say "here are some strategies to solve this problem" - now lets learn how to use these strategies to solve a given problem. You wouldn't learn about the background theory, which might seem boring/not useful, but it helps YOU with your understanding of the problem
I'm not putting down infosci here, its simply not an intended part of the course to know WHY these things work. infosci is about how to use things, compsci is about how things work.
(in my biased opinion) CS is a much more useful major. BECAUSE its harder and more general. You're at Uni. You're here to learn dammit, not to get a token qualification to make money with.
So your original question is flawed - you should NOT be choosing a course at Uni based on what job you want to get.
You should be choosing based on what interests YOU, and what you want to do with your life - not on what the easiest way to get a given job is.
I started out a CS major, then decided that maybe I didn't like all of the programming, so I went IS with a CS minor. I still took the CS math classes, but not as many as a full time CS major. What do I do now? Well, I am a programmer, but I understand both sides. Stick with one as a major, and the other as a minor, that way you get a taste of both, and then you can decide what will be best for you.
I was originally admitted to Purdue as a CPT (CIS) major but am now nearing a transfer to the CS department. A lot of people have been asking me why, especially with the CS curriculum being much harder and with the jobs and salaries currently similar. There is no easy answer to that, but the curriculum is actually part of the initial attraction. There are more programming and systems-related courses with CS where CIS requires more business-related courses. I'd say that the main reason is because personally, I'd rather do research and programming than business and networking. As for the extra math, that's the fun stuff!!
If you can afford it, get as high a degree as you can. Even if you won't work as a computer scientist in the future, having a more extensive degree gives you an advantage over people who have more of a narrow view on the subject. You can fit into more roles than someone who has merely learnt to code and doesn't know about the science behind it.
I am a CS major, entering my last semester in Jan. at St. John Fisher College. There is a big difference in CIS and CS, but it depends most on the College. At Fisher CS is a well rounded major, spaning Network Topology, Assembly Lang, C, VB, Unix, A.I., and many more specific courses. This is different where some of my friends are going, they focus on just programming. So I feel that it depends largely on the college.
BTW. MATH does suck, but once again, the amount of math required is different for every college.
Also, intern and get experience, this is more important then a GPA in my mind.
CS majors, we are the geeks that run it all. Without us things die.
I first started school as a CS major. To tell you the truth I didn't enjoy it. I enjoy coding and problem solving but I didn't enjoy all of the math, physics and EE. And my school doesn't really offer the CS classes that I wanted to take. So in turn I really wasn't enjoying my major. So I had to ask myself why am I a CS major. Well I did want to learn how to code, and I thought it would be a prestigious major, but I just wasnft enjoying it. I could endure this major and come out on top, or I could pick a major that I really enjoyed and that was more unique. And I could continue coding and learning how to program the stuff I wanted to learn on my own. Now I am a East Asian Languages And Cultures and Japanese Major. I now work in the computer industry and will have no trouble finding a good job when I graduate, I have already received a few offers. And I am much more happy now, then I was a few years ago as a CS major. If you are bitching now that you donft want to be a CS major because its ten times harder then a CIS major then you will be miserable at your work when you graduate. If you follow the dollar bill and not your heart then you will be miserable. Do something you want to do. Pick a major that will give you the most enjoyment. And likewise pick a career that will give you the most enjoyment. If you have to ask a question about what major should you chose, then you have choose the wrong major.
As i said i have been using computers since i was about 8 when i got my first Amstrad.. (and i mean 'use' not just play games etc..) I certainly did not take a CS degree just to make money, I was hoping to maybe learn something about a subject that i love.. my main point (that I proberly didn't express very well) was that I didn't actually learn as much as I was hoping to on my degree course, and that I consider myself lucky that I have been teaching myself as much additional stuff as possible.. I suppose that using a talent that I have, computing, to attain work really is a dumb idea, you are quite right, this would certainly make me fake, i know, I will just go and work in a convenience store earning £3.50 a day and code for myself rather than take advantage of my talent. I hope you tell everyone you meet that if they use their talent to earn money and get along in life that they are also fake.. (and I hope all you CS/CIS/IT professionals on slashdot are hearing this guys opinion..) I also hope that with your CS/SST degree you are going to work in a video store for the rest of your life, other wise you would be a dumb hypocrite and a fake...
As for being considered 'fake' because I have other interests (archaeology, specifically lost cities/civilisations etc.) How is it ok for you to be an English Literature fan and not for me to be an archaeology fan? Or do you think that your interest in the 'classics' puts you above the rest of us? (You are also proberly one of those people that suffers from an anti-social elitist attitude because you use linux i guess..)
The argument about whether true hackers need to get a college degree at all is a popular debate. Personally, I think they do. Not because it proves anything about their skills, but because among other things it proves responsibility, that you can start something and finish it because you see the longterm benefit even if you don't like it.
If you see getting a degree as just being able to prove how responsible you are too people, then surely it doesnt matter what degree you take? As long as you learn what you wish, whether its just being taught CS, or being taught archaeology and teaching yourself CS..
I used to cruise the bookstore at the start of each semester and buy books from classes I wasn't taking, because they looked interesting.
This is certainly a good idea however.. Unfortunatly I couldnt afford to buy many books (I spent 6 weeks eating 1 bowl of porrige and a vitamin table a day :/ but i wont burden you with my financial problems :) but rather than buy the books i used to attend my mates lectures if I had a free period.. learning about Philosophy, Electronic Engineering and other topics.. Seeing as I was in a facility for learning, I decided to learn as much as I could..
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It is sooo easy to slag off and insult people over the internet, try being nice for a change and not instantly jump to lame conclusions fs..
The problem with slashdot is that most of its users were bullied and stuffed into lockers as kids!
My main gripe is.. if i had of not gone to university and done the CS course.. i could have saved myself about £8k and learned an awful lot more than i have done.. yeah its all about the learning an expanding your mind etc. yack yack yack.. but you can do that in a library.. you dont need to goto a school to do it..
and as for jobs.. (which ultimatly is the point of the thing.. as personally i dont wanna live in a cardboard box next year..) most of the ones i have seen generally ask for x years experiance in a certain field rather than 'CS degree needed'
but whatever does happens n could of happened.. I had loooads of fun at uni n wouldnt have missed it for the world.. im just wondering if it wouldnt have been a better decision to choose another degree on a subject i liek (e.g. archaeology) and teach myself all the 'computing stuff' liek i did before..
oh well.. better do some course work now else ill fail :/
The problem with slashdot is that most of its users were bullied and stuffed into lockers as kids!
I haven't ever seen you insult anyone, and I am sorry that I took it the wrong way.. but when you mentioned 'fake' something seriously ticked.. when I sit in my lectures it is so obvious who the 'fakes' (as it were) in the lecture are.. they are almost glowing neon green :/
I guess my post was a bit off topic.. and yes, I did goto the wrong University.. my grades were good enough to get me into UCL, Imperial or somewhere like that.. instead i ended up in which compeltly sucks :(
Anyway.. im not here to make enemies.. so again, soz..
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Yes.. misinterpretation is more forte :)
The problem with slashdot is that most of its users were bullied and stuffed into lockers as kids!
Excuse me?
First, learning the fundamentals of things that aren't going to change are very important
Secondly business practices and management principles do change. Take Silo vs Matrix business organizations.
Third, if you think physics isn't changing, look at the changes that have occured over the last 100 of so years, things like quantum mechanics and relativity, only scratch the surface.
Fourth in defence of CIS you learn a lot more than programming. You learn about business practics. Which is more useful? Knowing how to build a double linked list, or underesanding the suply chain?
On the CS side, they learn things like compiler design, and if they're lucky, they learn stuff like patterns. On the other hand I know CS majors, I'm not sure what school, who never had a course in OOA&D
And on the subject of hiring Math majors because of problem solving skills, there were Math majors who complained the theretoo much math in Physics. Physics is not only math, but its using math to model reality, isn't that what programming is supposed to do?
As far as I'm concerned you need the right tool for the job. Do you want to do business software? Try CIS. Do you want to write video games? Try CS.
If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
It teaches abstract thought, methodical problem solving, and many other things rather than "just how to do a specific job."
I got the most "mind expanding" education out of my engineering curriculum, and secondly out of philosophy courses, with literature a distant third. Engineering can be and should be Real Education.
First off, let me apologise that being from the UK I don't really understand all your education based acronymns. However I am sure the principles are the same.
I have worked for what is now a major systems company for 30 years. We take on a few hundred graduates every year, and in the UK, we generally get our pick of the cream, given our reputation.
At a first approximation, the actual details of the degree matter nothing - obvously a degree in a computing subject is better than a numerate degree. A numerate degree is better than an arts degree and we pay a few hundred pounds a year more to those with qualifications above degree level. But very quickly (ie within a few months) it is your performance in the job that counts. Are you taking reponsibility for your work, are you helping the company by helping understand and solve its clients problems, are you showing leadership skills, are you able to coach others, are you able to work well in a team and are you able to network within the company to find those who can help you solve problems when you can't. Of course pure technical skill is important too - but its more an inhibitor if you haven't got it or can't pick it up quickly when you need to use them. The other attributes enable to you progress much faster.
Most of this means that to be able to do these things well you must enjoy working. Therefore - take a course that interests you, learn to do the things you like doing well and not because you think they will ultimately get you more money.
That is why I am in MSCI, Management Science and Info Tech. I was CS for 3 years. I will probably finish the CS minor, since I am only 6 hours from it, but I really can't believe all the stuff I was missing out on in CS, wasting my time with math and programming. I am not bad at math, and got A's in calculus, and went all the way to multivariable calc, then I realized that the things that were important to me were not the things I was learning.
Now I am learning things that will matter, like accounting, advanced statistics, etc. I also work as an IS manager, at a medium sized company. (If we eliminate many more people through technology, we won't be medium sized anymore.)
The point is, do you want to be a Knuth, or a Bill Gates? I want to retire young, so you know what my answer is. (Can anyone say Woz? :)
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I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
I've worked for five years doing distributive process control, and have seen the product evolve from UNIXish to NTish. Work progression has led to less of a ChE base to more of a CS work philosophy. I've directly skipped mentioning the EE work involved here, too.
Differential equations get you very far and Laplace transforms will solve anything!
BTW, Chemical engineering teaches you how to solve problems based on mass and energy balances. Software works in a similar manner. GIGO.
One can only solve a problem if you understand the phenomena under which it occurs. Pick your studies (not necessarily the degree) carefully.
I have a CS degree and about 7 years of experience working with developers with CS, EE, Math, English, MIS, and CIS backgrounds. Yes, you can get a job in development with any of these degrees, and entry-level usually pays the same in a given organization, regardless of degree. However, CS, Math and English majors typically make "better" programmers. My guess is that these backgrounds foster problem-solving skills at the abstract level and an appreciation for the finer points of the discipline. I have worked with a few EE developers that were very good, but people with this background usually sacrifice code quality for "getting the job done", and make poor designers. I have a suspicion that this is due to a lack of respect for software engineering, but haven't confirmed this. CIS and MIS majors usually just don't "get it". They can do the day- to-day duties of rote programming, but fail to make defensible choices in designs and algorithms. MIS/CIS people often implement such atrocities as N-cubed complexity algorithms and cut-and-paste coding. The point of this is that your advancement in the field will be governed by your performance. If you want to quickly move up the ranks from junior developer to senior engineer to technical lead or even architect, you'll probably want the training that a CS degree offers. Granted that a degree is no guarantee of future success--you have to do your part of keeping your skills current and learning from the senior people in your organization--but it is a good place to start. My advice to anyone that wants to succeed in software engineering: if you are looking for the easiest way in, look for another career.
I'm starting college in a few days (BS in CS) and I'm planning on going all the way, for at least a Masters, and most likely the Ph.D
I'm 21 years old, so I took about 3 years after high school to make my decision. I asked myself all kinds of questions during this time, like:
- How important is money in the immediate future to me?
- Do I personally HAVE to gain all the knowledge possible, or will I do OK with just a little bit?
- Which degree fits me the best?
- Do I really need to go to college at all?
I see your problem a lot with kids who jump into things right after hish school, just because their parents said so... That's wrong. You should be 100% decided, and know a LOT about that degree before you jump into things.
The other important question is "Are you passioned about this stuff?" "Do you start writing a Web server in your favorite scripting language because you need to feel the 'rush' you feel when you accomplish something?"
If quick money is what you have in mind, you might as well drop out after your sophomore year and get a job.
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$_='hfflbwfsbhfzp vs';s/(^.{4})(.{7 })(.+$)/$3 $2 $1/
Look into thine heart, son. Look into thine heart.
You had me at "dicks fuck assholes".
People who can communicate effectively with technology and people are just as valuable, if not more valuable than people who can only speak math or computer languages. Choosing what to study shouldn't be based on what size salary you expect to get after graduation. Study what is most interesting to you, and a satisfying career and salary will follow. And, your degree has less and less to do with your salary or the job you end up with, as technology is changing faster and specifically faster than college syllabi and education standards change.
They keep you close to the hardware, without all this mucking about with assembly (Which I never understood, anyway)
Regards,
You don't need to see my
It all depends on what kind of programming you want to do. If you want to do scientific programming then calculus and all sorts of numerical methods are absolutely essential. Numerical Recipes in C provides most of what you'll need to know... but in order to understand what you're doing you'll need to have studied some mathematics at degree level.
Do you plan on going to graduate school after you get your B(x) or do you just want to be done with school and jump into the work force? Do you want to want to dive into the workings of the beast like an EE, make the beast jump through hoops like a programer, or become a systems/database/network admin somewhere? If you don't want to take an engineering route or programing route, do the CIS. I graduated May '99 with a CS/Math double major and am now working for a networking company. The number of times I've used any kind of higher math besides converting betwixt binary, hex, and decimal I can count on no hands. If I had known then networking was going to be my gig, I prolly would have taken the CIS route and maybe tacked on a math minor to prove I could add. ;)
I dunno, I'm an EE and I'm in statics right now. I dont see what could possibly be worth all this work.
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If you are really interested in learning about computers, go with the CS degree. You will learn about computational theory, OSes, creating your own languages, compiler theory, AI, some math/engineering etc... If you just want to have a job where you use computers, and maybe not one writing a lot of code or dealing with a lot of theory, and you are not interested in learning about the above topics in depth, then go with the CIS degree. Personally I think the CS degree is better both academically and in terms of a career. Today you can get a job with either one, but in my opinion you get a much better education with the CS path, and many companies show preference for CS majors.
Why are you studying CS or CIS? Is it for interest in the subject? Is it for money after graduation?
If for money, please find another field. I've met enough otherwise smart people who went into CS/CIS for the money and are completely useless on the job.
I mean, they know the standard discrete math stuff, and they know the syntax of a couple of languages, but they can't work without close supervision because their hearts just aren't in it.
If, on the other hand, you're doing this for love of the subject, look at CS and CIS as you might look at pure and applied math. They're both useful, they just take you different places.
Personally, I'm an Applied Physics major, faking it in the development world. I love what I do. And I'm pretty good at it (i.e., I can work unsupervised).
668: Neighbour of the Beast
Math, all the calc's :(
at my school (Univerity of Missouri St. Louis) they require 3 years of calculus, very harsh. plus another 10 hours of math credits.
How Jaded Are You?
There is in fact more than one way to expand your mind - Engineering and CS and Math are all about solving real-world problems: this is an important part of being human. Not everyone likes the liberal arts side of things and not everyone understands it. Being human is using your mind in any way you can - and that includes science and tech fields.
A pilot, in those days, was the only unfettered and entirely independent human being that lived in the earth.-Mark Twain
i could rant on, but I'm sure others will pick up the refrain...
Need a Linux consultant in New Orleans?
CS will teach problem solving techniques applicable far beyond building system software. You may never code a compiler, but there are a lot of business computing problems that "look like" a compiler. A lot of manufacturing planning, for example, is very similar to CS.
Don't forget your breadth. If you find CS too narrow, do a minor in something "soft" like social sciences, history, or a foreign language. Breadth is very important to CS folks. Lots of CS graduates can write awesome code, but cannot produce a coherent written document. Programming is really about supporting human systems. Humanities and Social Sciences teach many valuable things about how humans work, how they live, how they express themselves. Your programming will be better knowing about the culture and civilzation of which your are a part!
Besides, you are only young once. Get the education you really want now!! Take a year or too longer, take time off to work if you need to.
If your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd murder you in your sleep
A funny thing is happening in America, there is so much money that just about anyone can go to college, and the universities are loving it. Immediately you may think, "All those losers are devaluing my degree!" But hold on, all those losers don't get degrees. The universities will take your money for almost as long as you'll continue to give it, but they won't necessarily give you the piece of paper for it.
dynamo
dynamo
And please save the "you should have followed your heart speeches." I'm quite happy with the 2 cars and big 401(k) money...and the works not too bad either :)
dynamo
Blah.
I went to school to learn a skill that would allow me to get a job I could tolerate, make money for 25 years, and retire early :) The only mind expansion I did was drug induced. You can be all philosophical about meeting man's potential here on this piece of dust, but I just wanna be happy. Having a nice job that keeps me comfortable is part of what makes me happy.
dynamo
Well, it's about time I get a chance to make myself publicly unpopular. In today's market, ahem, (yesterdays market =), All you needed to get a job in the computer industry someplace was a heartbeat. It was better to fill the cubes with incompetent people who need handholding continuously, then to not have enough workers to get the job done. It was not always this way, and it will not remain this way either.
When I graduated ~5 years ago, companies wouldn't even interview CIS majors for jobs unless there were spaces left after all the CSE students who wanted interviews got them. When I asked the recruiters why, they responded with a pretty simple explanation. Basically they said that students who can survive a CSE program are more likely to do better in the workplace. (Mind you, these were big companies, such as Intel, Motorola, IBM, HP, not little start-ups that may have to show successful hiring to get funding, and which will likely die off in a year or two.)
Ultimately it boils down to how good YOU are. If you have a CIS degree, and are very good at what you do, then you will do well, same for any other degree. However, at some point we will go into recession again, and jobs will be harder to come by, especially in high-tech, and when that happens, rules about degrees and degree types will start being enforced again.
Just because you write code, doesn't mean your an engineer. Unless you also drive a train...
That is a good question. A programmer is someone who programs something. In this case, we're talking about computers. Programming a computer is the easy part. Solving real problems is harder, and understanding that the whole system is more than business and problem solving is the hardest of all. The study of software engineering is much broader than any typical CIS or CS person understands, and it's a travesty that someone without the background or knowledge refers to them self as a software engineer instead of a programmer. I have yet to meet an undergrad or graduate of a CIS or CS program that can comprehend the whole lifecycle of a product and what it means to the programmers. I have, however, interviewed many who couldn't explain anything about source quality or why it is important.
Just because you write code, doesn't mean your an engineer. Unless you also drive a train...
At least 75% of college is useless as far as contributing to later work. That tripe about forcing you to take general-ed classes in order to produce a more well-rounded individual is just their way of getting bodies into those departments so that they don't shrink to nothing. College is a racket.
That's the difference between college and vocational schools. I agree that there are some useless courses in most colleges' curricula, but courses in English, math, etc. all contribute to a well-rounded education. Calculus is important to being a good programmer, as are other skills (such as writing ability) that are fostered by a typical college program.
Maybe if you're a Poly. Sci. major, but business (IS) and engineering (CSE) programs exist to pump capable people into society. If you want to expand your mind, it would be a hell of a lot cheaper to read books. College is for gaining marketable skills and partying.
Either way you go, your resume just gets your foot in the door. Its then up to you to show this person what you know and how you will be a valuable asset to them within time. Either degree will have the same power or effect of getting you in the door. I'm taking CS at SUNY Albany, New York. I have been very dissappointed at the program there. I'm not learning anything practical and some classes have no direction or focus (such as one class called Principles of Programming Languages, where we use Prolog and Lisp). Why bother spening 4 monthes learning about a language that won't get you a job. If we're supposed to understand some theories (which we didn't), why not stick to C which people already know (I know, stupid, that's logical...). I am glad that I have an internship at a network integration company where I've learned invaluable real world skills and have found a direction to focus on in my own time. IMHO, that's very important. Find something you enjoy, find exciting, and that isn't vaporwear and study that on your own time. School alone will never prepare you for finding opportunity in IT industry. Hope that helps. Ben
Computer graphics. This was the most fun computer course I ever took. This was the only time I ever had to actually use linear algebra.
Programming language theory. Not very practical, I know, but still good to know.
Hardware. Gives you a different set of mental tools to work with. Great for simplifying complicated logic.
Artificial intelligence. Explodes a lot of myths about the capabilities of AI systems. Programming in lisp or prolog will give you a different perspective. Modeling neural nets using a spreadsheet was fun too.
None of this stuff is vey practical in my working life. However, I still find those topics fascinating even if I don't use them every day. Remember that you'll have the rest of your life to grind VB or cobol for some corporation. Most of us go through school only once so make the most if it. If you choose CIS do it because that's what you're interested in, not because it's expedient.
I can't comment on the US education system (without getting flamed anyway), but when I took CS, the S was for Science. The material was aimed to be the first part of my training as a *scientist*. I was not taught programming (although was expected to pick it up as a tool). I would suggest that if you want to know something about computing, rather than computer science, then do CIS.
/..sig file not found - permission denied.
hyacinthus.
I hated math when I was going to school, as a result I chose CIS instead of CS. I didn't like the accounting, and the other business classes that were required for my business minor, but in my mind it was better than the math. To me, CIS wasn't technical enough, although there were some technical courses in the curriculum. I ended up taking the more technical classes like assembler as electives. As a result of my CIS degree, I'm now writing business applications as an independent contractor. I've worked for a few different companies in the 8 years since I graduated and found that my technical skills put me way ahead of my peers who were more business-oriented. I attend project meetings with the high-level managers from time to time, and have to stop myself from busting out laughing when I see that these people view me as a serious business person. It's the coding I care about the most and I get to do that 95% of the time. I like having the coding variety in my everyday life. I'm able to come home from work and code a few hours in Delphi, C, PHP or whatever without worrying about getting burnt out writing the same types of apps 12 hours a day.
Yes, aren't they great to us at the UMSL
I'm currently a CS major at a school that offers a minor in "Management for Technology Students". It also offers an MIS degree.(U of MN).
I'm thinking I won't enjoy straight coding as a career and I have some experience with management at the menial level aqnd I enjoyed it very much. But I'm doing quite well in CS and I don't think I'd respect myself as an MIS student. Is it worth my time to spend a couple years turning out code and then move into a non-development field or some management job? Is a management minor worth my time?
that why I changed. Why work harder for the same thing. switch now!
But that's the world right now - a very short time after the peak of dotcomness. Imagine three years from now when we're in a heavy recession. Money is tight and people aren't so willing to start new projects and take on new people. It's that situation that you should be thinking about.
CS degrees are harder because you're learning a lot more. This will make you a lot more marketable when push comes to shove. In today's world that probably isn't a huge issue and I know that it's hard to imagine the economy any other way after recent years. But bad times will come again. As sure as the setting sun. Just something to keep in mind.
Devon
Actually, that was a pun, jackass.
Wow, a softmore, he must be in one of those 7 year plans. Last I remember there was a SOPHOMORE (meaning "wise fool") class, but not a Softmore. I seem to recall working at a University in my last job, where the students actually expected the professors to do the work for them. Kids are just lazy nowadays. They see the current money that computard people get, and make that their brass ring. So they try and get the education that will get them the money. Meanwhile, they cant even spell. *SIGHHHH* Someone needs to spend more time in ENGL-098, and less in CISC-101.
- Guyver3
When I hire, I have found CIS grads to be gererally more qualified for applications work. CIS normally requires you to take accounting and business, in addition to systems analysis, and be grounded in multiple (computer) languages. In the program I graduated from, we were also were required to work on at least on team project.
I have nothing against CS grads, or CS programs but if you are getting your degree to work in "the real world," CIS is better training.
What do you know I wrote a novel
Education is expensive, but so is ignorance.
There is a big difference between CS and CIS/MIS in the real world, as there is in school. I write business software. Do I need to know how to design a chip? No. Do I need to know Calc.? No. I have great respect for the CS professionals, but most of the jobs out there are better filled by CIS/MIS folks.
Aaron Fuller Programmer/Analyst Accident Fund Company
Speaking as a successful developer with a Business degree, I can say that undergrad degrees are useless. I've known great developers who were art history majors. Programmers can be anyone, and the degree is irrelevant. Pick a major you like, and do that. The jobs will come easily if you're at all competent and you can speak English with going into hyperactive geek-speak.
and yes the math stuff is a big drag, but it's important to learn. not because the techniques of calculus are particularly useful in the dicipline, but because it forces you to think in a more logical and focused way. it orients you to problem solving in an organized manner, and that's an important thing.
cis is definitely a business hybrid, like cs is to a science degree. and i have seen employers not show preference to cis/cs grads. i've also seen employers post pretty dumb job notices (web developer for a university corporate site; cs degree required).
a degree/diploma (IMHO) is a good thing to have because of the way it makes you think, not just because of the specific stuff you learn (although that's obviously important too). and as we all know, there's lots of people who didn't take that path who have done very well for themselves.
i'm just finishing up a cs degree, but i don't plan on going to grad school or designing chip arcitectures for intel (where i'm pretty sure you need lots of formal training), so sometimes i wonder if i would have been just as well off doing cis? oh well i guess i'll never know :)
Where I work the CS people are software engineers, work flex hours, get paid well, treated with respect. The CIS folks work in the IT department and are considered to be about a step up from dirt.
then get out of the major.
Because guess what, all the thoery you learn in all of those scary math classes will help you later. Sure you probably won't need to integrate anything at you job, but math courses aren't only about learing how to solve specific problem types, they are also about the process of solving the problem.
I know from experience that the ability to look at a problem and break it down has been one the most useful abilities I got from math courses. They don't teach you that in a "Learn VB is 21 days" type of course.
So if you want to be useful at all stick to CS. Otherwise you can join the rest of the blank-faced programmers out there who only know the syntax to a few languages, but have no idea how to write a good algorithm.
Nice sig... heheheh, reminds me of someone else around here....
\/
Shit adds up at the bottom...
CS is much more general than CIS, so it is easier for a CS major to do a CIS's job than the other
way around. But, if we're talking about general
degrees the best thing you can do is get a physics
degree, take CS classes on the side, and learn CIS as a hobby at home. Then you'll be as employable as they come.
Yeah go to school and party. Forget about the $100k you spent(or did daddy) for the "education" in and the 4 or 5 years of your life you put in. And you can easily do this as most people especially the person I am responding to are all knowing at birth. Give me a break, study CS if you want to be a really well equipt programmer. CE is good if you would like to wire up the machines and write your own code to work on it.. this is good for new technologies. CIS/MIS if you like to be taught the one way to approach a problem and the way to respond. I started out as MIS and found it boring, but that is a decision you have to make on your own.
Don't be fooled by the technology industry's boom over the last few years. As many investors can relate, we're now seeing the equalization of the technology industry. With the rise of the quick investment turnaround and huge pool of VC money, there was an unbelievable demand for technology workers. This resulted in Cert farms and quick degree programs. You'll find the demand for the run-of-the-mill hi-tech worker decrease as the market is saturated, but the demand will increase for the industry heavyweights...the CS majors and those with strong industry experience. The time for the quick-turnaround certifications and degree programs is coming to an end. Since you are just coming out of college, don't make the mistake of taking the easier or quicker way out...you'll find that the job market waiting for you will be much less friendly to those without industry excperience or hardcore college background.
I agree, but there is also an issue of what you want to get out of school, personally I already had all the skills I needed before I went to college. I am quite capable of sitting down with a book and learning what I need to know.
Taking the CIS route just ensured that I would be out of school faster and start making money ASAP. Taking CIS to LEARN is a whole different ball game, and I do not recommend it. If I had spare time I would gladly take CS to sharpen my skills (especially theory-wise), but I simply do not want to spend 5+ years getting an education when I can spend this time working.
As far as jobs go, 99% of the time CIS students can get CS jobs, granted they have the skills. It is not about the degree you have, it is about what you can do and if you can apply your knowledge in a real life situation.
However -- I now earn enough to afford regular vacations, to buy books, to keep myself and my partner living in a comfortable fashion, and so forth. I also figure that once I've worked for a few more years I can kick back a little and, who knows, perhaps return to school to pursue that elusive English degree, or do something else entirely.
Ultimately, life isn't something that needs to be, or even can be, planned to the last detail. It's an oversimplification to suggest that such decisions as what to study at University should be made purely because of one factor or the other -- the need to find fulfilling employment is an entirely legitimate concern, as too is the need to find spiritual/educational/social gratification. In England, more perhaps than in the US, University is seen very much as a rite of passage -- as important as the learning that is accrued is the new exposure to different people, cultures, and alcoholic beverages. In that area, my years at University were hugely worthwhile.
I would suggest that you take balance of all the aspects that might come into play, and then ignore all that and do what your gut tells you.
As a high level engineer who does a lot of hiring, CS is definitely preferred. With CS you learn valuable theory to match good implementation. CIS is is easier and you just learn to push buttons. If you want to be an engineer and make things go CS, if you want to be a technician and use things CIS. Sorry for the bluntness.
I was a CS major at UCSB. When I transferred to BYU, I changed my major to CE, because we all know that engineers are the *real* studs.
An unjust law is no law at all. - St. Augustine
I don't know about that. My first year as a CS major, I learned more than I had learned "hacking" away on my computer all through high school. When I went to work as an intern after that year, I almost went braindead as my boss made me a glorified web page designer. When I went back to school as a CE major, I was thrust into the "fast lane" again. I worked side-by-side with graduate students and within 4 months, I had deleted Windows off my computer and replaced it with Linux, and picked up Perl on the side. If I had stayed on the workforce, I would still be a Microsoft zombie today. If you're serious about getting straight-A's, school can get you where you want to be faster than working as an intern can.
An unjust law is no law at all. - St. Augustine
All the comments I have read support a CS major if you want to be a programmer, and to a certain extent I agree. But remember what you learn in each degree. In CS you learn the technical aspects of programming. In CIS you learn how Businesses need/use computers. So if you want to come out of college knowing how to write a compiler and other higher technical things, then CS is the way to go. If you want to come out of college knowing how an accounting system works so you can program it, CIS is the way to go. also, your resume isn't just your degree, its your experience. If programming comes easy to you, learn that in your spare time and do the CIS, if business stuff is intuitive then do the CS path.
I love reading, and writing fiction. So I took English and have my degree there. But I also love computers, so that's where I make money. Now I can't write really good C code, but I can write some cool Perl and shell scripts, and I definitely won't be writing any math intensive apps like encryption... but I don't want to, either.
Do what you love to do.
Me, I like to read, write, script, take care of my unix boxen, and drive my stainless steel car, and play with my kids!
"You may all go to hell and I will go to Texas"
Sen. Davy Crocket to US Congress, Nov. 1, 1835
When your mission critical code that you've just ported to a new platform starts going haywire, grab your CS guy, cause the CIS guy is going to say "What's a compiler switch? What do you mean by optimized? It's not on my flowchart."
And all that math? It pays off when your code takes hours instead of seconds. If you can't quantify the complexity in a piece of code how are you going to know how to fix it?
Don't ever trust a programmer who hasn't written assembler code for at least a semester.
- Sig this!
Digimation is a good Metarie, La based company... World's most prolific developers of 3DS plug-ins...
Get my free Hitchhiker's Guide Tribute Novella:
I took CS for a year and left when I discovered I could teach myself the material quicker on my own and additionally learn tecnology that won't be incorporated into the curriculum for years to come. I currently lead a team of web programmers as director of web development at an marketing agency. At night I enjoy taking classes towards my new academic interest, Geography. I figured I'll get a degree in something the fills my intellectual curiosity. You may wish to do the same.
I majored in chemical engineering as an undergrad and the best times I had (from an educational point of view) were when I managed to have half tech courses and half liberal arts stuff. (Granted, I couldn't manage that often.) Both can be mind expanding, but different parts of the mind. The problem solving skills you pick up in an engineering style program cannot be duplicated anywhere. Knowing how to construct a sentence or two doesn't hurt either. Engineering courses should not just be about how to do a specific job. Most of mine weren't. They're supposed to be a mix of the practical and how things work. There's a lot more value in understanding. It means you can apply your knowledge to situations you haven't seen before. Just my two cents worth.
Now that was funny.
I don't count myself all that great in math, but I got through all the math and theory classes without a problem. Maybe I just have too high of an expectation about what good math skills are. If you just plow through the classes and do your best, the pain pays off in the end.
I majored in CIS (MIS at my school) and minored in CS. I much preferred the CS side, but it was too late to switch majors when I came to that realization, and it was a process to get in to my business school.
When I finally stared interviewing for jobs, I only pursued CS jobs with any rigorousness. On more than one occasion, the personal skills and professionalism I learned in a good business school more than made up for my lack of CS knowledge. I made big impressions in my interviews based on that.
Moral of the story: Don't switch. The switching will waste time. Start working on a minor in CIS or another business related field. It will help you in work, and it will help if you ever pursue an MBA.
I first started in CIS at a small school. Very easy stuff, almost to the point of too easy. That didn't bother me too much though, I had TONS of time to study things that I wanted to study on my own, so I'd write programs and read books that I wanted to. Then I transferred to a large school for true CS. Well, I dropped both my CS classes that semester. It isn't that they were that hard, just that I had very little time to do things I wanted to do for myself. Now I'm back in CIS with time for myself again. I don't know about jobs, all the grads from my school have no problem finding jobs. So I'm graduating in CIS (and also Math) and learning about CS on my own time. CS is one of those subjects where you can learn a good deal on your own without classroom instruction. OK, just my thoughts.
I disagree, I find it much easier, more rewarding, and more FUN to do it on your own than following a cirriculum. That is just the way I am though. I think you can learn it just as well, if not better, on your own. Just two different ways of doing things though.
Technically speaking, this means that my training prepared me for almost nothing that I read on /. I recently graduated with a BS in CIS. I should have done CS, but I didn't know the real difference... until it was too late. *To code or not to code* is NOT the question! You're going to write code for a while either way. The question is: What type of coding do you want to do: applications programming or systems programming?
CIS = Applications Programming = How to create applicatons like MS Word and Excel
CS = Systems Programming = How to create operating systems like MS Windows and Linux
Another key difference is that CIS is geared toward information management and CS is, well, computer science, thus all the math. When I was in classes, we never discussed stacks, queues, data structures, Perl, TCL/TK, algorithm design, performance measurement, IP streams, etc. (multi-threading wasn't even mentioned). I did learn how to design, configure and manage a network (Windows based), a database (Windows based), a website; you get the idea (I hope).
So, I'm out now and I got a good job with a communications company as a programmer. I got a dual-boot NT/Linux machine and spend most of my time in NT... because I had very little exposure to UNIX. I am programming interactive television applications and find myself asking stupid questions like: what's non-resident? What's spooling? What do you mean by p-frames? Where can I find info on MPEG transport streams? What are MPEG transport streams anyway? Of course, I spend a lot of time reading these things over, repeatedly, because I never got the basics of computer science and systems programming. I got the syntax of certain programming languages, but not the fundamental theory of computer programming. Yes, this job pays the same for CIS and CS; but I'm doing a lot more work than a CS major would because I was trained to do CIS.
You need to decide what type of work that you want to do. You also need to decide where you want to go with it in the future. Do you want to get an MBA and become a manager? (CIS) Or, do you want to create flight control and AI systems for NASA? (CS) If you can, audit a class in each program and see what the difference is in both what gets taught and how it gets taught. Talk with an advisor; talk with upper-level people from the two programs. Then you will know what you're getting into.
I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message.
Basically, if you want to stay very technical, I highly recommend CS. Not only will it help when first looking for a job, but what's learned will help you stay technical. If you're more into being a DBA, managing technical teams, networking, technical writing, or something like that, then CIS would suffice.
Developers: We can use your help.
gotta love it
I was a CIS major for three and a half years before getting a job in the field, and I've got to say I wouldn't be able to do this job if I went into straight CS. I think the big difference is that CS treats computers as a science, and CIS treats it as a career. CIS also started me off as a "jack of all trades" kind of situation, before deciding myself to focus more on sysadmin, db programming, and web design/programming. CS gives you a better education in programming languages, OOP, and so on, but very little by way of networking, dbms's, system design, and so on.
I agree with other posts that the degree doesn't mean much these days though, at least not in this field. I saw too many CIS majors who apparently knew nothing about their field, and I just wonder what they're doing now! Experience and skills matter more than degrees, and if you can show that off in the interview, it doesn't matter what your degree is in. (of course, the degree helps you get the interview...)
And to show where I'm coming from -- I took three and a half years of full-time class in CIS, until I got a good job as a web designer. Now, I'm taking the last semester (spread out over spring and summer) so I can get the degree taken care of.
I really hate signatures, but go to my website.
But then again, I never wanted to be a programmer anyway...
People learn in different ways and "hard" and "easy" are very relative terms. A diploma (or three) WILL increase your marketability, but it won't be easy. Even if school isn't "hard" work it is a "lot" of work.
I'm glad I are edjamacated, and I surely had no real trouble picking up theory from a text book and then applying it. But between working and going to school much of my life was sucked into pursuit of a career. And now that I have the career, it IS my life.
If I've learned anything, I've learned this: Find out what you want and make your career a means towards that end rather than the reverse.
Jack, a dull boy
A steaming cup of soykaf would be real wiz right now.
Who is this very prestigious CS professor at CMU, pray tell?
It is most unfortunate that CIS get paid just as much CS majors do...However that is usually at the entry level position. Most CS majors typically do not move into the managerial level, simply because they are better than that. Upper level corporate management is saturated with ignorant, self-indulgent, uneducated, moron business majors who exploit a well refined craft to make a buck. Those are the types of people who develop cute little acronyms like NIC so they can confuse those who are not so computer adept and make themselves look smarter in the process. A CS major enjoys programming and usually moves into research. It's enough money to live on and it's a great position to be in if you love the field. However, if your one of the corporate swine wannabe's only out to make a buck, then stick with CIS you lowlife.
I would say that you don't get the same kind of job as a CS major.
From what I can tell, the skills that you learn in CS are more abstract, more mathematically based. You pick up a lot of problem solving skills that are really helpful in all kinds of stuff, not just in writing a program to help with payroll.
I will say that CIS/MIS majors get more of a business education. In my school, you can barely know how to code and get a MIS degree.
So what I've been seeing is that CIS/MIS grads go into consulting firms and IS departments, where you will be doing front-line coding to support the business process. Which is fine for some people.
But people with CS degrees get to do much much cooler stuff. Sure you can do front-line coding to support the business process, but you also end up doing more inovative stuff. There are a lot of different and interesting career options available for you.
For example, my personal love is graphics. You can't really do graphics with an MIS/CIS degree. Plus, you need a solid mathematical background.
And sad to say it, but I have found that ALL of my high-level math courses have been useful in some way. Anything from Combinatorics, Discrete Math, Probability, Real Analysis, Graph Theory, (and most especially) Linear Algebra. It's a pain in the brain, but it will be really helpful later on.
And not just for the actual basis, but the thinking and problem solving that it requires you to have.
So it depends on your ambitions. You'd probably get a much better education and have more capability to grow if you get a CS degree and maybe take some business classes.
Gentoo Sucks
If you are only in school to get a job I question whether you should be in school at all. School is to expand your mind. It also lets you get a job.
Exactly! Do what I did, quit school before they've completed the brainwashing process and go do tech-support. Become poor, frustrated and violent. See the world, leave your cubicle. Guess that'll do for today's rant...
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
Want to program? Stick it out in CS.
I didn't want to program. Personally, I hate it. Some people like it, some people get off on it. I didn't.
If one day you aspire to be management personnel, making decisions, etc., go toward CIS. Get your MBA one day, and really learn what makes companies work. With CIS degree in hand, two years of practical programming (mostly C), 6 years of Unix experience, I landed a 6-figure job (+stock, big deal) a month before graduation.
The Slashdot Populous tends to have this disdain for management. A CIS degree is not a cookie cutter degree. What it trains you to do is different, true.
Management vs. Programmer... you decide for yourself.
Another vote for getting the Math degree. When CS or CIS or whatever the flaver degree of the year fades away having that math degree makes you stand out from the thousands of resumes out there.
I may get some arguements here, but most of the basic to intermediate stuff taught for a computer science degree is learned on the job. The advanced stuff is not taught in school anyway so having the Math background to understand all the basic laws that computers follow is a bonus IMO.
Send all information this way please...
Here's some word of advice, some might be true, but definitely not all. Majors are all different from school to school, and with all the confusion with CS, CIS, MIS, CSE, etc etc... it really doesn't mean anything unless you know what courses you will be taking. Personally, as a CS major I've had my share of fun during school. I've taken so many 'fun' classes, but all of them came toward my junior and senior years of my term in college. If I were you, I'd check out what programs your school offers and see what options hold for you (such as what electives you can take). Some schools even restrict courses to students within the major, so that is another thing you should look at. In terms of landing that 6 figure job really depends on what you know and how much luck you have and people you know (no BS here). okay okay.. maybe not the first one... i've seen my share of people who are inadequate for certain jobs... IMHO, CS is not ALL math, but eventually it does become pretty abstract. Math is a fundamental if you intend on pursuing a career as a Computer 'Scientist' not a Programming Junkie. You don't need education to be a programmer, you just need patience and alot of time to read OReilly books and a PC. So, I'd look into what your school offers for you... and decide what you'd like to do.
No doubt. CS
If you want knowledge and truly love computing, the obvious choice is computer science
If you are only interested in a computer job(i imagine NT admin?) then CIS would do fine
I'm a Senior at the University of Illinois on Computer Engineering (focusing on CS/software though) and after getting a job for this next summer, I have noticed that CIS/MIS/?IS majors tended to go to big five consulting firms (AA, AC, PWC, D&T, Cap Gemini/E&Y) and that is the group that the big five focuses on. After getting offers from 2 big 5 firms (in chicago) and talking to friends who got offers, they are substatially lower (around $50-55K) than other offers that weren't Business consulting related. The lowest offer I got from a non big five firm was 60K with the average being 65K and the high being about 75K+ (it was an hourly job). All these offers were in chicago. So if you are talking about money, there you go. I also notice that most MIS/CIS people don't want to code but just want to work with technology. A final note though, the communication/people and group project skills were much better with the CIS rather than the CS people.
If you study Computer Science rather than CIS, you may have to work harder, but you will also be happier. You may find that you can learn the CIS stuff too, but (and this is just my opinion) the math behind computer science is what makes it interesting. It is not represented well by courses like introductory calculus. It is typically discrete math, which is quite a different, and I think more rewarding, animal. Also, even if you end up with the same kind of job as a CIS graduate, you will have an edge, in that you will have had more difficult training and hence will be more prepared for whatever comes your way.
I think the "Engineering" portion of my major adds an extra advantageous edge that other computer science fields do not have. I feel although it has been extremely difficult, as compared to other majors I could have followed, I believe that it has and will continue to pay off.
What do others in the industry think about this??
Keep in mind that the people who have the final word on hiring tech guys usually know the difference between CS and CIS. I have no doubt you could get a job with either, but our company, for example, has turned away some highly qualified DB people because they don't have the strong programming background that a CS degree would have given them (and we're looking for).
Because the curriculum is so much more difficult, it is also apparent to most employers that a CS guy could adapt to a CIS job. It's not so easy to move the other way. My suggestion is to increase your marketable skills and give yourself as many options as possible with the CS degree.
A grounding in the fundamentals of mathematics, most essentially rigourous logic, has been the keystone for my career in computing. I currently work as a web designer. My HTML was easy to pick through practice and because I had become used to learning logical systems quickly. I was trained as an economist in college. One course with a brilliant man, Dr. David Kendrick, introduced me to the power of computing in connection with economics.
Mathematics is the best language to talk computerese. If you're not into it, maybe you should consider a different profession.
There's also the barbaric ways of IT recruiting. These things include:
Therefore before considering CIS I would determine if there is indeed an IT shortage in your city. If I was hiring I'd steer clear of CIS. But I can do that in my area where CS grads are a dime a dozen.
im a senior at a your average suburban long island high school. i have taken a few computer courses ins school, but i was curious to ask you who are currently in a college computer science program. what i should get familar with before i attend NYIT next fall. thanks alot. rep516@yahoo.com
what are some estimates on entry level position salarys with a computer science degree?
Get or MCSE (just kidding get a CS dergree be a man)
- spending money on hot women
- buying a hot car
- buying a big house (plus a greenhouse for the plants, a doghouse for the dog, and a hothouse to raise the kids to be overachievers)
- eating hot and spicy food in expensive restaurants
- traveling to hot (or at least pleasantly temperate) foreign countries
Given this set of interests, what should he study? Also, he wants to do all of these things while he is still young, so don't recommend medical school.My recommendation (assuming the person is not on the path to acting, sports, literary, etc. stardom and has fairly good logical thinking skills): Java and Oracle. Or maybe PHP and MySQL. Or derivatives pricing theory. Not that any of these skills guarantee being able to do any of the things listed above, but they will help to at least make the funds available.
Some people enjoy spending money more than they enjoy studying. Does this mean they shouldn't study? Some (OK, most) children enjoy playing more than they enjoy studying.
I don't know with any certainty whether the job market for CIS vs. CS graduates is better, but I would guess that employers will be more impressed by the CS degree. Personally, I would be most impressed by the candidate's ability to demonstrate code (to actually be able to write a short program (possibly in pseudo-code) to solve a given problem) in an interview.
sig: BeanShell: lightweight scripting for Ja
Two angles must be considered: 1. What the employer expects. 2. Your personal satisfaction & growth vs. the required coursework. I am an I/T professional that aids in recruiting for a BIG manufacturing company and I have a CS degree, granted by a Math dept. (and I am not just a coder.) I hired in 1.5 years ago with some CIS folks, and the knowledge I brought with me from my CS course of study has positioned me far above my peers in only 1.5 years. Yes, it's unfair that I get paid about the same as a CIS person, but my potential is higher and I am not playing the daily catch-up game. Remember, employers see the I/T job market as tight, especially with regard to lower-salaried, entry-level (read: recent undergrad.) employees. Many employers are happy to get ANYONE that can write simple SQL or even HTML. They can always send you to training. As for personal satisfaction, do what you won't regret in the future.
Tell me if I'm off base here, but here's a good explanation I once heard:
Imagine the difference to be like construction workers building a house:
- Your CS folks are the masonry workers. They pour the foundation and make sure everything is stable and ready to be built upon (like the operating system)
- Your CIS folks are the carpenters who build the walls, ceiling, install the doors, etc. Their work is only as stable as the foundation. (weak applications on robust operating system [or visa versa] for example) They may do some of the grunt work too, but, hey, it has to be done.
Both teams work TOGETHER, but are two separate groups. Sure, the masonry workers could moonlight as a carpenter, but it wouldn't necessarily be common for a carpenter to pour concrete. (heck, he/she could spill it or mix it wrong or some other catastrophic problem - without proper training).
Lastly, about math being an issue: Think about school in general. Why do I need to take english classes to begin with? What could I do with a painting class? Simple. These subjects give you a mindset to use later on. Prime example: Geometry Proofs. Can't get much closer to programming without having a computer.
Granted, Calculus 4 may be a tad excessive, but the higher math sets up the mental processes to be able to understand the nitty gritty of computers.
Thankew.
Marvkus - CIS and proud of it!
(Consider: The people at egghead.com had likely been told that their M$ IIS server was highly `secure' (whatever that means), because, among other reasons, they used SSL for credit-card transactions. The computer operators that egghead hired probably didn't have the basic comprehension to realize that they had a very weak system for securing their customers' data.)
Computer skills have some of the shortest lifetime of any skills; the most valuable skill that you'll derive from a CS education is the basic ability to think.
As a CIS major, I have to say that it is not completely true to say that CIS and CS majors end up doing the same job for the same money. A CIS major would never be able to do what a CS graduate can.
The education we get is completely different. Yes I take classes in programming, databases, etc. But we always concentrate more on the business side of the issues while CS majors concentrate more on designing the business systems that we will eventually use. I think with the education I received I can be a systems analyst or a consultant if I keep up with the technology and get some experience working in a junior position in a good company.
However, I will never know all the beautiful things a CS major would know such as all the algorithms, hardware/software internals, why things work the way they do and how... and I will never really be a hardcore programmer. I would study CS if I could but I don't think I would be successful in that.
To sum up; I think you got to really decide what you want to do. If you want to be a programmer or if you want to do things that are highly technical, go ahead with CS. You will see that all that math you learn will give you great flexibility in the way you think. If you want to be more on the business side, go with CIS. That's what I like to think of this issue anyway.
Either way, try to do the best you can.
Oktay Altunergil
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Founder of the The Free Linux CD Project
But I graduated with a MA in English Literature and a BA in Rhetorical Theory and *I* get the same jobs you do. It's because the computer industry realized long ago that experience is much more important than anything written on a diploma.
However, just starting out, you have to think about WHY you're going in to the computer field. Computers in business are not what they were ten years ago; it's not all about the optimizations and smug coding you learn in CS. CIS is the field of dirty, actual use computing -- the sort of thing most readers of this site could figure out given twenty minutes and a Usenet group. It's my opinion that the skills learned in CIS are useless three years after you learned them; after all, we're not networking now the way we did in 1997, and then we weren't networking the way we did in 1994. The skills you learn in CS you will always need -- the ability to learn an algorithm or new high level (read: not scripted) language, the ability to comprehend object oriented design (most of my managers are CIS grads and can't ken this to save their lives, it's why i'm constantly in Rational Rose) and the flexibility to do pretty much anything given enough time and the right tools.
If you're going into computers just to make quick money as a sysadmin, I suggest you go directly into CIS. You'll probably never use these skills programming websites and networking PCs. However, if you want to do any real programming (e.g. machine language optimizations, robotics, wireless programming, or making scads of money writing drivers for Microsoft), you'll want that CS MS.
Hey freaks: now you're ju
I am a CIS graduate and am currently a software engineer for a small company, working side by side with CS engineers. They code in C++, what most of you would call a "real" language. I use VB for the most part, what most of you would call "crap". We both earn about the same amount (New England programmers can't complain about wages). Is one of us any less a Programmer than the other? Before you all answer an emphatic "Yes!" keep in mind that while I don't have the knowledge to write my own compiler or OS, I don't think I'd ever *want* to. Similarly, while my MIT grad friends wouldn't be caught dead using VB, they wouldn't ever *want* to.
There is more to the Industry than nuclear propulsion algorythms...we need Business-minded coders and we also need Math-minded coders. Real programming is an art...it cannot be taught. If you've got the skill, great...how you want to use it, *that* should be the factor that sways you one way or the other on the CS vs CIS debate.
mr. skid
Just hearing you ask if its worth it to work harder to study CS makes me think for you it isn't (from an intellectual viewpoint). However, since you asked, I'd say that if you CAN do CS, then do it. I would be willing to bet that (later in life) less people regret working hard and learning more in school than those who regret having more time to party and have fun (although for many CS people, doing their homework is fun). It's a tradeoff, yes, but remember you are also "investing" for your future. College is 4 years (usually), your life is much longer (usually).
I have to give you something. After being in the IT professional world for over 4 years you get to spot pretty quickly the people that are here for the money and the people that ALSO got into this because they liked it.
The later tend to be a lot more competent.
Why? Because this is a constantly changing environment, you have to learn and study every day if you want to keep the path. If you don't like it, you will drop the vagon pretty soon and you will find yourself stuck in the only job you know how to do getting a decent salary for one third of the rest of your life. Pretty sad...
If you are lazy you will never get the bucks. No matter what you do in life; wether you are a fireman, a business man or a doctor. If you are lazy you'll get nowhere.
So, if you are getting nowhere, my advice, get to a 'nowhere' you like, because you are going to be there for a long while.
If what you want is money, you will have to work hard, no matter what you choose to do in life. If you choose CIS for the money AND the 'less' effort, you can get a job after school, but the rest will depend on EFFORT. So you might as well practice that from school.
I ABSOLUTELY agree with you.
What some people fail to grasp is that both careers have a very different approach to he problem.
In CS you get a knowledge base: Logic, algorithm, Operating systems, compilers, architecture, patterns, technologies... AND THEN they choose a language/s to teach you all that.
In CIS/MIS they teach you the business, the marketing, a language AND THEN they tell you what to do with that language.
In CS they teach you to fish, in CIS they give you the fish.
After reading some of posts I get the feeling that people think that the only difference between CS and CIS is math. IMHO I believe that is just scratching the surface.
- CS gives you deeper understanding of what you are really doing, rather than just knowing how to do it. Therefore, in general, you get better troubleshooting skills, which are VERY valued in the professional world.
- The IT market has been on a boom for several years, but all that goes up, goes down. Eventually. And this will too (and it is already showing some signs of it). Think that when you graduate the market will probably be closer to be saturated, and then is when CS will have the edge again.
- When in a course 20 managers listed what we value most in a new hire the 3 top things out of a list of 15 were consistently: Ability to learn, Initiative and base knowledge. Make your own conclusions.
- It is my feeling after 4 years working that CS end up as developers and CIS end up as users, VB developers or DBA's (not there is anything wrong with that! ;D)
- Basic law of life. What takes you more effort ends up giving you more rewards.
- IT industry law: You are what you have done the last 3-4 years.
- If what worries you is getting a first job, I think that an internship in a good company before you graduate is going to be more important than the difference between CIS and CS.
- But at the end... it all comes to the individual. I hire people, not Resumes... It is going to be your attitude, your initiative, your enthusiasm what at the end is going to get you hired. What you have done up to the point of the interview is a reflection of who you are and how you do things. Choosing between CS and CIS already says something about you.
The hardcore math maniacs would want to go the CE route (which I unfortunately stumbled down), as it's about ten times harder than the CS program (unless you went to a hardcore tech school). CS is middle of the road, and as for CIS (MIS?) I've been along on some recruiting junkets at my company, and CIS grads get a smile and "I'll call you later", not jobs.
They also have a greater initial understanding of the latest technologies. CIS folk are hired and have to spend a great deal of time in training. CS people hit the ground running. These are some pretty vague generalizations, but I feel they hold true for the most part. Stick with CS... you'll be glad you did. Oh, and CS = more money faster
My sig sucks.
This problem comes when you don't know what you love to do,find out what's your true passion, then everything will be clear. Minor things like this wouldn't matter then as you will have the clarity of thought which love alone can bring.
I am a MIS (CIS) graduate, feeling I already had enough knowledge of programming, and was missing the understanding of business. The work being done by both CS and CIS grads is within the context of an organization, and must fit that orgs goals and strategies. I find that having the additional biz background of CIS, I am aided in both understanding how my work fits with my environment, and also in choosing my own job description, because I am more versatile within that setting. The depth of CS is fascinating to me, but I find it is too focussed on the computer side of life for my personal taste. gage
When I was in school in 1992, I didn't have CIS available to me--only CS. I really despaired, since I appreciated, but didn't like the rigors of math (the irony being that I did poorly in discrete structures but passed the equivalent content in philosophy), but ran a profitable business assembling, repairing and selling clone PCs. My dean, knowing that I wasn't stupid, but unmotivated, forced me to leave CS (major number three, after EMT certification and philosophy). I ended up relying on my self-taught hacking experience from when I was in third grade, and relied on education from my mentors at companies I worked at. I became a competent systems engineer, and have enjoyed my work. My only regret is that I had held business majors in disdain, something that delayed a much-encouraged move (from friends who are coders and management types) into technical project management. What I'm getting at is this: it's futile to argue the merits of CS vs. CIS vs. law vs. art history. I think it's more critical to pursue one's passions, tempered by one's abilities (I am, for instance, a medium built Asian guy--probably not smart to go for that defensive line position in football). Who cares what people think: do what makes you happy and which you have a passion for. There is a time and place for everyone to be...
I would highly suggest going with the CS degree. It gives you a really thorough background about how operating systems and application software work, giving you the mental skills to tackle programming projects in the future. CS programs are where you learn theory, and its hard to really learn that stuff anywhere else. On the other hand, you can learn the CIS stuff on your own or on the job, since it's conceptually much simpler. While earning my CS degree at Berkeley, I had part time jobs on the side in order to learn the CIS material. I recommend that you do something similar. The CS math and theory I learned will give me intellectual and job satisfaction for the rest of my life. Go with the CS degree. Good luck! :)
One reason why companies are picking up CIS majors to do CS work is there's a shortage of CS majors out there. If it were more convenient I don't doubt companies would rather choose a CS person overseas than a CIS person locally ....CIS folks make for good testers though.
Getting a CS degree will be more worthwhile in the end. There are lots of ways to make money in our society. Believe it or not, garbage men can earn up to $50,000 in some states. You might even be able to earn more putting in a lot of overtime hours at a large factory (coders don't usually get paid for overtime work). You can only pursue a career in serious computing if you love it. A CS major is great for people who really love it. There is nothing better than getting well paid for something you would do for free anyway.
First of all, I assume you realize whom you are asking. Slashdot readers are almost entirely former CS and Engineering students. You can't expect an impartial assessment. There are many small minds who will tell you that the more technical degrees are better, simply because they are more technical. They will tell you that CIS is easier because it involves less math. I will tell you that you should make the decision based on your own personality. Which of these describes you:
A CIS major will take many intense business classes. CIS is not a fluff degree. There are real rules and procedures to learn in the subjects of Accounting, Finance, Statistics, Management and Economics that will break a student who is not motivated by business. Although CS students often see these classes as pointless exercises in common sense, many of these same CS students find themselves completely lost in the real world of cubes, procedure and business requirements, blurting out such phrases on customer conference calls as "if your data wasn't so f***ed up, this wouldn't be so bad" (real life example). CIS students are often drifting through their programming classes without the love for technology their CS counterparts have. Those who are passionate and self motivated get the best of both worlds, learning the best way to put together a real world application, and how to satisfy a client while still keeping the project academically correct. CS students learn the correct way to do things in much greater detail, but are seldom prepared for real world road blocks. Many (not all) panic and assume any compromise in academic perfection is a failure.
On the other side:
I have a CIS degree (in case you cant tell by the rant above). Until I moved into the workforce, I had always wished I had attempted CS. I was originally afraid of the math, but in retrospect, I think my business classes were more difficult for me than the math would have been. CS students are exposed to a much more technical view of the world, and although that limits many of them, many of them helped form the world we read about here every day.
If you are at all interested in business, or want to one day manage (successfully), choose CIS. If you are interested in the academic pursuit of technical knowledge, choose CS. Please, don't pick one because you are afraid of the challenge the other presents. We don't need any more "lunch-pail" programmers.
I'm currently concidering some CS degree in the US. Can any of you recommend a good university that offers CS to norwegian students? What GPA is ussually required to enter the course? ( I have 53 points of a total of 70 points here in Norway.) I don't think math will be a problem, but maybe all the english would be a challenge??) (There is only one university in Norway with a good CS-like-degree, but you have to be a superhuman to enter it.....)
Linux forever!!
It's been a while since I was in college (10 years). At that time, there was a CS which was much more intensive (read: coding) than the MIS (read: not coding, hey look! e-mail!). MIS was pretty much taken by either people who needed the elective, or by management types.
Why is it that people in the computer industry ask this question so often? Try it in some other field:
Student: "I want to work with cars. Should I go to school and become a mechanical engineer, or should I just go to trade school and become a mechanic?"
Employer: "Go to trade school and become a mechanic-- you'll bre able to work with cars, and you won't have to bother with all those messy engineering classes "
If you wanna build cars, become an engineer. If you wanna fix cars, become a mechanic...
Let's try not to let fact interfere with our speculation here, OK?
Unfortunately, it seems like calculus is a typical requirement for CS, but they aren't willing to go far enough to actually require anything that matters (though really, I don't think calculus would necessarily have to be a prerequisite for any higher math -- but it seems like it always is).
True, for most programmers, the actual numbers don't matter that much. Just the way things interact with each other. So set theory is very important, but doing integrals is most certainly not.
I regret not going into CS. CIS didn't teach the really hard core programming that I now want and need. I'm now teaching myself about algorithms, compilers, OS's, theory, etc, because I didn't get it in CIS.
Be careful, it's much more difficult to stumble through all this on your own than to follow a curriculum that has been long established by a good school.
Misfit
Nearly 20 years ago, I was looking for a summer job before college. One place I called asked if I could write an MIS system. I misunderstood, thinking they meant "IMSAI", and showed up, resume in hand (not knowing any better :).
:)
:)
:)
Anyway, I was hired, and surprised to find them using Osbores, but I kept my mouth shut. Six months later, I finally asked what MIS meant.
They all started laughing. "You wrote one, and now you want to know what one is?"
Years later, before leaving law, I looked at an MBA. One of the prerequisite clases they insisted I'd have to take was "Introduction to MIS Systems." They didn't care that I'd written two in the last six months just because I needed them around my office . . . I didn't get that degree, and instead got a real one
hawk, err, dochawk, oh, whatever. There's just two many letters after my name. Any more and I think I have to become a Jesuit . . .
> If I were to start over, I would take several classes in discrete logic
> and automa theory, but otherwise pursue a business or liberal arts degree.
Believe me, given the reasons you expressed, you *don't* want to sit
through a business degree. The liberal arts, including math, would
make much better choices.
hawk
it also explains why He could make it in 6 days instead of 6 years :)
And while you are at it take a class on Shakespear or history or whatever. There are too many 1 dimentional geeks out there!
The cure of the ills of Democracy is more Democracy.
Erlang Developer and podcaster
Yes, but you should be learning the underlying concepts, not just how to code. Without them, you'll be at a significant disadvantage when the time comes to actually do the coding. For that reason, I'd always recommend a CS degree. BTW, for us non-US types, what is CIS? What does it stand for?
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
Although there are a lot of cases where a MIS major from my school will get a job doing something else, these seem to be the two fields that most end up in. Some graduates seem limited to middle management because of their degree, or they get relegated to working with databases.
Computer Science is definitely more of a problem solving course, and at most schools tends to have a major math slant to it. Several of my school's classes (at Iowa State University) that are labeled as CS classes are in fact discrete math. These classes, combined with linear algebra, are really useful for programming. There are also dedicated courses on data structures and algorithms.
On the other hand, the MIS majors at my school take a mild C++ class, have few math requirements, and have to take COBOL. As a part of the business college, they also get mired in course like accounting.
It's really a preference thing. If you like middle management and don't especially want to program a lot, go for MIS/CIS. Computer Science is excellent for programming, even though a lot of CS majors often take on organizational roles as well. A minor or double-major in Business would give you the best of both worlds.
As a side note, I also had been programming for 10 years before I entered college and knew more than most of my professors, but that's besides the point.
--
Never hit your grandmother with a shovel, for it leaves a bad impression on her mind...
CIS does a lot of programming, too. I think the difference is, with CIS I can use a compiler and OS. With CIS I can build a compiler and OS, and probably have already done so for a term project. However, most companies will hire either, because there are _many_ CIS programs that are called CS programs
Engineering and the Ultimate
"I'm just about to enter my softmore year..."
Christ almighty. How do these people survive high school, let alone pass the SAT and get through freshman English?
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
I've encountered the same problem myself.
I'm 18, just graduated, and finished up my first semester of college. I too wondered whether I should pursue the CIS route of Networking or CS with more programming.
Since I have previous vocational education in CIS from 11th and 12th grade I decided that route.
CS as you mentioned, does seem to require a lot of math. I really dislike math. It's not that I find it hard, it's well... I'm lazy. I can't get myself interested in doing it. If you're not a big math fan I think you may want to veer away from CS. If you love math and programming, go for CS.
As other posters have mentioned, CIS does mix mostly networking courses in with Accounting, Economics and other fun stuff. CS is a lot of math and programming languages. My advice would be to find a common ground for both courses.
Locate classes that are required for both paths or can be used for credit. For instance, my CIS path requires I take a programming language. The programming language would ALSO get me credit for a CS path though. Take a programming course or two, a networking course and see what you like doing best. I get my kicks crawling around under desks troubleshooting hardware and network problems, but you may like banging out that last code revision at 4am better.
Go with what you feel is the best for you. I think the CIS will definitely be easier, but if you want to really challenge yourself then go for CS.
Laugh seconded - you go to University to have a good time. If they give you a degree after three years, so much the better. But a hell of a lot less important than the degree is the fun you have getting it - the beer, the (wo)men, the people you meet, the whole experience.
Btw, I haven't a clue wtf 'liberal arts' is. I did a BSc in Accounting and Financial Analysis - some hard core number crunching relating to stock market valuations, share price movements, company financial reports and the like. Most of which I haven't used since I left uni - but the experience of learning them is something I use every day, and the fun I had at the time is a source of joy to me now.
At Uni, do what you are going to enjoy doing. Very few companies care which degree you have, as long as it isn't a bad one. So pick one you can have fun with, and concentrate on those ex-curricular activities.
~Cederic
In twenty-five years of software development from putting together payroll systems to putting GUIs on object models, I have yet to use any math more complicated than arithmetic. I can do Rheinmanninan manifolds and quaternion fractals and that's about as useful to me as tits on a bull (great scenery for a Quake Arena though.)
Its more useful to be a non-linear thinker. Read books by Victor deBono and try to retain some originality despite what the system's about to do to you.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
What business are you in?
> but real companies doing cool things do know the difference
That's a bit of an oximoron there. "Real" companies are usually in the business of generating and especially maintaining wealth, not of creating "cool" products. You're more likely to be working on a "cool" product in a dot-com, and even more likely to not be doing it for very long. I know because I myself work for a "real" company, and there's nothing remotely cool to what we're doing.
You will find that many employers won't even know the difference between the two, or care. They just look for the words Computer and Bachellor in your degree, it's just a checklist item.
That said, it depends entirely on how ambitious you are about programming and what you care about. While not all math will necessarily benefit you--differential equations will touch you extremely peripherally in most cases--some can be very useful. Linear algebra in particular will come in VERY handy if you ever get into graphics, both 2D and 3D. If you ever play with neural networks a good understanding of calculus won't do you any harm. On the other hand, if all you're planning to do is Perl scripts or GUI forms in VB (or, may I suggest, Delphi!), and you're quite certain that you won't be interested in anything else, forget the math.
The actual major is important for the immediate next job.
After a few years it is mostly work experience and what you have learned since.
The earlier stuff will be out of date.
If you'd read on, you'd see that I make that point - the degree is there to get your foot in the door. There's not a whole lot of variation in job applications from new grads - where you went to school probably counts as much, if not more, than whether your major was CS or CIS or ECE or some other variation.
Your typical new grad's resume (3-4 years of summer jobs, and maybe an internship) isn't worthless - it's just not a major factor in the decision to interview or not interview. If you did some interesting work at some point, it might make you stand out from the crowd, but lack of cool summer job experiences or internships is not going to drop you out of the running.
"Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgement." Job 32:9
"Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgement." Job 32:9
It seems like that you are interested in taking the CIS/MIS route. As someone who barely made his way through the prerequisite Calculus/Linear Algebra/Discrete Math/Differential Equations, I can sympathize with your apprehension to take those courses. I had to retake Multivariable Calculus twice. My concern is not your lack of interest in Math. It is your attitude of just doing enough to get by. No matter what route you take in school or life, you should strive to be the best in your field. Even if you don't end up being the best, you will still be much higher than most others. I learned this the hard way after flunking out of school three years ago. My advice to you is this. The most important skill you can have comes in the ability to deal with other human beings. Nothing we do is in isolation. Good luck with your decision.
Learning calc was painful (when I went to RPI, they required Calc 1,2,3, and Physics 1,2,3 for CS majors, in addition to three more science classes and two more math classes), but it teaches problem solving. Most calc (and math problems in the sciences) involves ways of reorganizing problems to make them solvable in discrete chunks. Sounds a lot like breaking down a problem to implement a large-scale software project, eh?
In fact, even if you're not doing software, you get a lot out of calc. Learning how to think and solve problems is 9/10 of most jobs.
-jon
Remember Amalek.
Or you could bump yourself up by another factor of 10 and take physics. Or you could reduce yourself by a factor of 1000 and take chemistry :)
Isn't computational physics a part of theoretical physics? It's just as valid a method of investigation as physical experiments (sometimes better). Perhaps your department chair depends on $$$ for physical experiments (i.e. particle accelerator) and wants to hear no talk of "computational physics".
As someone who changed careers with a Master's in IS, I have very little regard for the degree. (Of course, it got me in the door in my new job, but I had a LOT to learn on my own when I got there. I still do.)
While systems analysis and design are crucial skills, they are NOT going to be utilized by people just coming out of school with their Bachelor's degrees. IS should be aimed at experienced CS and BS(business) graduates as a career development step. Instead, it seems to be treated as 'CS lite' and targeted toward lazy CS-inclined students as a moneymaker for universities.
If your goal is to educate yourself the way you think best by taking whatever path is open to you, then who cares what they call it? Let them call it whatever they want. I was told from the time I was about 10 years old that I'd "go to school for computers". Sure enough, I did. Of course, I also invented a new major (combining sociology and computers) along the way. The simple fact is that I care what I learned, not what they call it. I explain it to people in terms that make sense to me, I don't just say "Oh, I have a CS/SST degree" and let them lump me in with everybody else who has those initials. Many's the time I got into arguments with my "classmates" over the appropriate courses to take. "It's spring semester of our sophomore year, who do you have for database 101?" Well, I'm not taking that course. "What? All sophomore CS's take database 101 during spring semester! What did you take instead?" Shakespearean Tragedy. "WHAT? What kind of freak are you?"
The argument about whether true hackers need to get a college degree at all is a popular debate. Personally, I think they do. Not because it proves anything about their skills, but because among other things it proves responsibility, that you can start something and finish it because you see the longterm benefit even if you don't like it. But along your path to that degree, do whatever you please. Fill up your time with everything you can get your hands on. I used to cruise the bookstore at the start of each semester and buy books from classes I wasn't taking, because they looked interesting. Player Piano by Kurt Vonnegut was the book that made me take up a sociology major. You never know what you'll find of value. You've still got time. Start blazing your own trail.
Duane
www.HearMySoulSpeak.com
To get Laid!
:(
Sadly, it hasn't been working at all
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
However, 10 credit hours of a foreign language, and absurd math classes (with non-English native speakers) changed my mind after two years. I thought I was taking the easy road when I switched to MIS.
It may have been. But looking back, it was the best decision I made. I learned the skills I *didn't* have -- business skills and business speak. And the ability to become and entrepreneur. Even a (giggle) management class!
I left college with a degree in MIS with a minor in CS. (I didn't have to take any of the weaker MIS computer classes, luckily.) For some, this path might even be ideal.
About the original question, did my employer care about MIS vs CS (or in my case, MIS with a minor in CS)? Not at all. All they wanted to see was a degree. The only relevence that CS vs CIS had in the workplace was my background going into it. For me, CIS was the better choice.
For a future Systems Administrator, CIS may be far better because they only offered 1 credit hour in UNIX under the CS degree. And the business skills are very valuable when dealing with the non-technical components that an SA has to do.
It is this exact attitude which is destroying our educational standards and our educational institutions.
A school is only as good a its students and when the students are not there to learn then that school becomes little more than a diploma mill.
Why it is that so many people seem content to pay money to a school and get nothing more out of it than a piece of paper is something I'll never truly understand. I think the reason is that knowledge is not prestigeous in our culture, whereas possessions and money are. So instead of having an educated populace, we have a nation of ignoramuses. People who know nothing more than the absolute minimun necessary to sucker an employer into giving them a job that will allow them to buy the consumer items their self esteem is so dependent on.
But guess what, the leaders and visionaries of this world will not be found among those who don't know and don't care. Putting appearence before substance where a person's education is concerned is a guarantee of mediocrity at best and utter incompetence at worst.
Some people are here to learn and to know and their lives are a testament to this. When they study something it is so that they may understand it and be able to make use of it in achieving their goals, which are not small. Some have had a huge impact upon this world. They are the ones who shed new light upon things and create new ways of doing things that improve the lives of us all. The impact of their lives upon the world is difficult to calculate, whereas the impact of the typical know-nothing's life can be found in the nearest landfill.
So I ask you, which would you rather be in life: A winner or a well paid loser?
Lee Reynolds
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
The difference between CS and CIS, in my experience as a CS major, has been that CS folk learn why things are the way they are, CIS folk learn how to use them. This yields two very different career tracks (though they may start out at the same place). The CS folks will have the basic understanding of computers that will allow them to advance through different fields of CS and not get stuck in a rut. The CIS folks, however, will need to be constantly retrained (more than CS folk) to learn how to use the new stuff, so getting stuck writing Program X on Platform Y is common.
So, my advice would be to go CS if you commonly ask "Why?". If you couldn't care less and just want to use the darn stuff, go CIS.
Hope that helps.
Who would YOU pick for a programming job - resume A with the CIS degree, or resume B with the CS degree?
Everything else being equal, whichever candidate was best able to answer the technical interview questions.
True, but that only applies once the candidate has made it past the resume screening stage...
Until you've actually got your foot in the door (i.e. scored an interview), then it's your resume working for you, and if you're fresh out of school then your degree is going to be a pretty major part of that (other than any summer work experience).
That may be true right now, but...
a) It appears we may be heading into recession
b) No (job) market imbalance lasts forever
Just because it's a great time for a programmer to look for a job right now, doesn't mean it'll still be so great next year, or when someone now entering college is graduating.
So you don't want to work for anyone who won't hire you? :)
The thing is though, that you want to be in the position of rejecting job offers, not having them reject you. There may be reasons (such as a good salary, interesting work, or no other offers!) that you'd still like to work for some company who (whether correctly or not) you view as unenlightened.
In the same vein, you should never "throw" an interview or declare your disinterest on the spot... Always try your best to get the offer, then decide with a cool head whether or not you want to accept it.
If your question is "Can I make decent money at a decent job with a CIS degreee?", the answer is yes.
But why are you in college? What do you want long-term? CS is a much better theoretical background in computers. Some people believe that CIS/MSI/IN degrees are better for working professionals. Do either of these statements make you feel one way or another?
I did NOT choose my major on the basis of a career. I majored, in fact, in English and History. I now have a good senior software engineering job, and I got into grad school without any hassle. Even if I had found myself careerless, I don't think I'd regret the choice I made.
If you just want to get a decent job, CS is probably a ludicrous choice. And don't discount CIS/MIS as moron domains. I know some really bright people who find academic CS distasteful and/or dated, and went CIS; I've also known horseshit programmers who love to talk about how great they are for going CS (CS majors have a tendency towards an ever-so-slight bias). Good companies typically hire people, not degrees.
So what to do? Do what you love. Find something, anything, that makes your heart go thump, and grab on with both hands. Don't waste your precious time in college plotting to make money, unless money is something you love (if so, get an MBA in finance or go entrepreneur). You'll know you are there when you find yourself taking tougher courses with tougher profs, ignoring grades, and talking excitedly to people about your subject, despite their glazed eyes.
At my school (Northwestern) the only difference between CS and CIS is that CS is in the engineering school and CIS is in the College of Arts And Science. Basically, if you wanted a double in chem or philosophy (I'm going for CIS + Philos) then you would do CIS, and if you wanted a double with Computer engineering or Chemcial engineering you'd go for CS. If you didn't want a double major, you'd have to choose between the moronic engineering base courses or the equally bad but slightly more balanced A&S base courses. The requirements for the major itself are literally identical. Then again, YMMV.
Q:Doctor, how many autopsies have you performed on dead people?
A:All my autopsies have been performed on dead peop
Now, taking some classes in engineering or physics on top of a CS degree is good exercise for the mind. I actually tried to do a double degree in CS and physics, until my junior year when I was taking operating systems (which in addition to the theory, had us writing device drivers and process schedulers) and theoretical mechanics (where I suddenly found that I did not have the grasp on differental equations I needed) at the same time. My brain melted and poured out my ears, and I decided that this was no longer fun.
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Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
It's true, clean, ultimate, complicated, advanced programming either way, but the goals and methods are different.
(The following is added as per full disclosure of the factors that influence my point of view) As a student painfully close to the end of the college decision process (sigh, where have the years gone?) I'm planning on becoming an EE.
-bugg
All the EEs in the house so hooo!
-Michael
i assume u mean Info Sys when u say CIS... if so, most CS majors take jobs programming right? and a CIS major would more likely know how to program but spend most of his time uh... doing network based stuff. u can do perl or shell hacks but you spend more time keeping the data flowing... right? or am i just wrong too. CS is much more math and theoretical crap, u spend your life with a compiler... (oh yes stereotypes.)-n-rs-
CIS? Aha, that's nice. CS? I see. That's great. WHERE'S YOUR PORTFOLIO.
Know why I got in? I had the portfolio. College is not enough to get you a good job with certain employers - they want to see demonstrated ability; a piece of college stationery saying you have a degree is nice, but not enough of a reason to say yes or no. I'm still in college, but taking it nice and slow. I'm not about to leave a job that pays as much as mine does to be a poor college puke for two years, but I'm continuing my education anyway because I might not always want to work at my present company.
No - just that which degree you have (CS vs. CIS vs. ECE) doesn't neccesarily mean a lot to a prospective employer. The fact that you finished school in a technical field related to computers is often enough to get you into an interview.
My employer does not hire engineers with CIS degreees. I doubt any major employer does.
Like what? Please explain. I've yet to encounter anything that cannot be taught or learned on the job, or picked up "on the side" while working.
Show me a CIS major who could validate the cache consistency unit of a superscalar microprocessor. This is the realm of CS and ECE, and a CIS major could not receive on the job training to understand the concepts involved.
CS is for people who create computers (and components such as system software). They are the real engineers behind the whole thing.
CIS is for people who merely use computers: system admin's, web designers, network people, etc.
I was a psychology major, so I didn't even hit the "or related" part of the job requirements. I got into QA because when they interviewed me I knew the current tech, backwards and forwards. They saw I was smart and worked hard, and 4 years/2 department changes later, I'm now where I want to be, designing and implementing parts of the application server that drives our company.
The interviewers for good companies will be able to tell if you're technically skilled. They will want to know that you went to college, and they may care if you graduated or where you graduated from, but that's about it.
--
It's rare that you're presented with a knob whose only two positions are Make History and Flee Your Glorious Destiny.
Are you in school to get a degree or an education? (Other purposes will be disregarded here). If you are trying to educate yourself, then isn't it your responsibility to challenge yourself as much as possible, to best have something to show for this outlay of time and money? If you just want the degree, follow the path of least resistance and get out of everybody else's way.
Ecce potestas casei!
It made me feel a little better about my CIS degree.
-Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.
Maybe they prefer CS for administrative jobs because it shows people can stick to their jobs and hang in there when the going gets rough, and not just "flunk" out to an easier course of action (or course, in this case: CIS/MIS)
Me? BSEE/CS (Case), MSCS (Stanford). I have lots of theory, some of it useful. Way too much automata theory, which is almost totally useless. Too much expert systems/logic type AI, because I went through Stanford at the height of the AI boom. Not enough number-crunching, which was out of fashion in the mid-80s, before graphics really got going. Formal methods and mathematical logic I used extensively in the 1980s, but use little today. It's hard to guess which theory will be useful.
On the math front, if you get linear math through differential equations and logic through simple proofs of correctness, you probably have enough to work through any area of theory you have to face later in life.
Some exposure to aesthetics of design and to the basics of how business works can be a big help.
If you're going to go the CIS route, take more business courses, because that route leads to operational management. CS leads to R&D.
...then go with it. I'm double majoring in Information Systems and Technology (equivalent with CIS, but seems there's less business) and Biology. I had no problem finding a very nice internship after my freshman year (making $14/hr fulltime and a nice appartment paid for) doing what I wanted to to. At the same time, my friends in CS didn't get a real (decent pay to code) internship until sophmore or junior years, and were stuck doing tech support and really lame sysadmin stuff for a summer or two.
I'm not saying that it's simply because I'm in IS&T, rather that it doesn't matter all that much. If you can rationalize being in the CIS program to yourself, you should be able rationalize to your potential employer why you're in/completed that program. If you can show how it is something valuable, who cares if you've taken DifEq or another 3 semesters of Calc?
To clarify: At my school, IS&T is very similar to CS (same department), but less math, and a little more breathing room for what to take. There are some pretty easy classes that are required, but when it gets into the electives, I can choose whether or not to take the advanced CS classes, whereas in CS it's much more ridged.
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
Bump yourself up by another factor of 10 and go into engineering...Electrical, Mechanical, Aerospace.
Nearly all of those programs will make you do programming, plus you'll get deep immersion into statics and dynamics -- the whole reason you had to learn calculus.
It'll be hard, but worth more in the long run.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
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If you want to become a professional programmer, you're going to program for a considerable period of time.
Unless you really want to learn the details of computing and the subject itself jazzes you, just take a few CS courses, do an internship and study something else that *really* interests you...physics or history or philosophy or music
Spend your time in college well. There'll be time enough to code.
DaBuddha
I got my CS degree after working for over 13 years. I learned the name of things that I had done for years; I found out that there are 5 steps to normalization, not look at it and it pops into your head.
In school, you are supposed to learn theory and technique. Languages change, hardware change, OSs change -- the basics do not change. When I was president of a DPMA chapter, we had a monthly argument on mainframe v. micro. It's the same -- just micro people tend to be sloppier.
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...I don't think the Calculus is going to make me a better programmer or help me develop better algorythms...
Math is useful in that it teaches you logical and analytical problem solving skills, which are a must in (most) programming jobs. I agree most of the specific items taught in the math classes will not be used, but, as they say, math doesn't teach you what to think, it teaches you how to think.
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Keep in mind not all software programs are math based, some are engineering based and focus on broader engineering knowledge rather than pure math that some prefer. If you really want to have fun, major in software and minor in hardware then you will know exactly how these amazing machines work down to the logic gates inside the chips - some schools call this a computer engineering degree.
Britt Johnston
Agreed.
/and/ some litt, art, etc. (That's the General Education), making you a well-rounded individual who can adapt to situation better than one who has not taken the time to study.
:), which field most interests you? If it's CS, do it. It may be the path of most resistance, but things worth doing are seldom easy.
I'm just beginning grad school, and people seem not to understand why, especially in the field of Instructional Psychology and Technology. "What can you do with that?" is what I often hear.
Well, I'm not in it for the money, I'm here to learn a field that interests me. Heaven forbid that a four-year university would serve for little more than just a certification process. Sadly, that's the attitude I came in with, but I learned in the last four years that school is for more than that.
What's really sad, is that the people who go all four years trying to do/learn as little as possible to get the desired grade, and then their "paper", degrade the value of that degree.
The benefit of a degree is not that it brings you more money, but that it shows, or at least should show, that you have completed a more-or-less "universal" (hence, "university") education. You should know your field
Disclaimer: Some of the brightest people I know do not have degrees, but they have studied on their own.
So, to answer the question, and to not be moderated as off-topic
I'd rather have someone respond than be modded up.
As one who's done both and then dropped out, here's my take on it:
I think a lot of people don't know exactly what CS is. Most of the IT world I think is closer related to CIS and engineering because there is very little science involved. Here's the way I look at it:
If you want to do all the scary shit, like coming up with new algorithms nobody's ever seen before, building wickedly cool new graphics engines nobody's ever seen before, coming up with some powerful new AI that nobody's ever seen before, developing funky modifications to systems that NASA might need to use in space, etc, definitely go for the CS degree and learn all you can and more. Also, if you like spending a lot of time doing research on minute detail things for computers (like algorithm performance evaluation, etc) and spending time in a lab, then CS is where you want to be. Don't expect to get paid much but you can get access to some pretty heavy resources doing this kind of thing.
If you're in it for the money, and you mainly want to do systems related work (sys admin, network admin, etc) then go CIS because you don't really need a lot of math and hardcore science skills for this stuff, and you'll still get all the programming classes. You will use some science skills analyzing and solving problems, but no the hardcore research stuff.
If you want to do more programming developing software, then find a school with a good Software Engineering degree and do that. This is what I should have done, but by the time I figured out this is what I wanted to do, I had been in school four years and my school didn't have an SE program.
My background if your interested: I started at one school in CS, went through all the math, got a job, dropped out my senior year finally after realizing I was making more than most graduates. I actually had the job all through college and only started questioning why I really needed to be in school the last couple years. So I dropped out, enrolled in distance ed (still slowly aiming for a degree to please my father) CIS program, and I still make more than most graduates my age because I've got about 5 years experience in software engineering, including OO architecture and design. I continously train myself by attending study groups, reading books on design philophy, project methodology, etc.
Yep, totally agree. You're going to study those books. If you don't like them, you won't study them. I'm belgian and engineer in computer sciences. We have LOTS of math and not that much compuer sciences. I was good at computer before entering university so what I leraned most is the theory. It helped me a lot in bringing together all the little pieces of information I knew. Math are useless in e-commerce. That's for sure. But 1) math gives you a way of thinking which is usefull in many situations, 2) math is important in many areas of coding (3D engines, physics, image analysis, etc...)
<RANT>Calculus?! You know how much calculus I've used since I got my degrees in Electrical Engineering and Computer Science? Zero. Frankly, if all someone wants to do is be a programmer, I question whether college is even necessary. It might get you your first job if you have nothing else to point to, but I'd hire someone who could show me a skillfully-rendered application that s/he wrote, degree or no. At least 75% of college is useless as far as contributing to later work. That tripe about forcing you to take general-ed classes in order to produce a more well-rounded individual is just their way of getting bodies into those departments so that they don't shrink to nothing. College is a racket. </RANT>
By the way, calculus was a pain. It was only years later that I discovered that it was my teachers, not me or the material. If you really want to understand calculus, get a book, Calculus Made Easy, by Silvanus P. Thompson. It was written in the early 1900s and has been republished in recent years. It was thru reading this book that the scales finally fell from my eyes.
"If I have seen further than other men, it is by stepping on their glasses." - Michael Swaine
The first thing to do is take a look at the course for the two and see which ones seem most interesting to you. Then take a look at some job listings, choose a few that seem interesting to you and see which degrees they require. I have never seen a job listing that asked for a CIS degree that wouldn't accept a CS degree. But I have seen many interesting job postings that required a CS degree and would reject a CIS degree. BTW, I don't have any degree and I'm not having trouble finding work. But I think I was lucky to begin with (it's easy to find work when you have experience, but hard to get experience without a degree). In general a CIS course will teach you how do use something (database, OS, language, etc.) A CS couuse will teach you how to create that something.
It's a good job not EVERYONE thinks like that. One of the best software guys I know has an English degree. I personally did Systems Analysis (a BA - not a BSc), yet I applied for and got a good software development job. If that's the criterion for hiring (CS vs CIS) rather than what the person can really offer, then you're doing me a favour by not hiring me anyway! I don't really want to work for an employer who is that narrow-minded. And on one job interview, where it became clear that the job was just yet another programming job with no human contact, I said as much! (I did end up working for that company, but I interviewed with a different department for a job I liked better)
It's a good job my employer IS broad-minded, too. Surprisingly to my friends, the last thing I wanted to do was a straight CS degree. I detest calculus. I can't think of anything more stultifying. I wanted something broader. In my systems analysis degree, all the non technical stuff we did was actually very interesting. We had a broad range of subjects - from the hard-science end (yes, we had maths in our course) to other things like understanding system failures (by system, not meaning necessarily computer system, but any system - one of our case studies was TMI-2), all the way to industrial sociology. It was a very interesting degree, and I don't regret choosing it over a straight CS degree for one picosecond.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
I would say you are probably right about getting hired for the same possitions at the same salary. I think where the difference will come in is what you do after that. If at your school the comp sci degree is 10 times harder, it may be a 10 times better program. Therefore enabling you to advance into better programming jobs. If want to head for tech management, then get the CIS degree and schmooze when you get hired.
As x approaches total apathy I couldn't care less.
As an IT director who hires people for these positions, I can tell you that the degree you have is only a ticket to get you an interview. The same goes for any type of certification. However, if you came to that interview and I was able to discern that the only reason you were a CS major was because you thought it would get you a high paying job, you wouldn't stand a chance.
Why? Because working in the IT field is very rewarding and challenging for those of us who love it. Those who don't love it are usually mediocre at best, even if they are very bright. My staff includes a PhD in Biology, an Immunologist and a Chemist, none of whom have CS or CIS degrees. They are major league geeks though, and they are the stars of my department. They all were spending their free time working on computers all night for the fun of it and decided to try it as a career. They are all very successful because of the fact that they love what they do.
The take-home lesson is this: Do what you love. Work hard every day at something you love and every day will be challenging and fun. Success will follow.
Next point: if you really love computers and want to understand them, you don't want to change to CIS. You should cherish the opportunity you have to explore your interests and learn while in college. The opportunities will be much fewer and much farther between when you move into the workplace. You should not only be taking courses designed to get you a job, but learning about a wide variety of things to expand your mind. Take philosophy, astronomy, physics, music... College is not a vocational training school, it helps you to learn how to think and communicate as much as it teaches a set of facts and specific skills. Don't waste this time! You won't get another chance like this again in your life. Once you become a real grown-up, with a job, family and mortgage, you won't be spending nearly as much time indulging your interests.
I think that the former Atari developper Dave Small is the one that summed this the best, in one of his columns:
I am quoting this off memory, so the words might not be exact, but the essence remains: a degree only means you have some faintest idea of what lies ahead and a certain minimal skill level worth investigating, that's all.
--
Software is not supposed to be about how to work around a useability issue. - Ken Barber
This is very true, I don't know too many CS majors at my school that I would consider extreme hackers, wrt the number of actual CS majors. Most people will still go with the easy professors who always give A's, and run away from difficult professors that might teach them something useful whenever possible. After seeing this for years at my school, I would say that programmer != cs major.
I goto Drexel which is just a factory of CIS people, and I am among the few CS majors trying to defend our turf at a school heralded for their IS department.
At my school, the people who stand out are those who stick with Unix whenever possible, learn how terminals are the fastest way of getting real work done, learn an MUA, learn a newsreader, learn a real editor, and hack their brains off. I know two IS majors of this kind, and they are rare. Most other IS majors that I have seen spend most of their days learning current business practice, which unfortunately almost always include the evil MSFT. So they spend much of their day informing people how to avoid email viruses.
Nowadays with products like cygwin, people on windows can enjoy the benefits of a terminal window (and get real work done fast), so the Unix reference above may be slightly dated, but I just plain hate windows.
Many smart people in high school who like computers often start in CE. The pecking order afterwards is such that CE->CS->CIS->MIS->Bus driver. The fact that somebody rode the pecking order for a few levels doesn't mean they have no technical abilities, or can't program. If you are good in math, than most likely computer science is for you. You can delve into optimization or algorithm efficiency which is what a lot of software today requires in order to compete with the speed requirements the competition already has. Heavy algorithm analysis is really a math topic, some background in this will deem useful...remember that.
Don't grab more than you chew, you'll save yourself some tuition money. My suggestion for people who are going into IS b/c of business, get out. Just become a real business major, and any up-to-date curriculum will include enough technology references to research the computer software for yourself. Many IS majors (at school that I know of...) spend most of their days aimlessly pointing, clicking, and righting tons of papers that even a bus driver could BS given enough time.
In a nuts-hell, all the really good programmers who majored in IS and CS, were just smart people in the first place. They taught themselves everything technical and desirable, and the school part gave them the paper which got them invited to the interview.
-- Who needs windows and gates in a world w/o walls and fences?
CS people get all the math. Calc's and all.
CIS people get mixed with Business and Accounting and Marketing and other stuff. At least I did.
CIS people can generally take all the software engineering stuff that CS people get and can sometimes get into the architecture classes as well.
I had no trouble getting hired with a CIS degree. I got a good understanding of business stuff like HR management and other work most CS people never see until the real world hits em in the face.
Then again my math skills are less developed so you need to speak to an advisor most likely to get the best info...
Either path is a good one.
I was a computer science major at one time and I stopped because I knew that my education would be so focused I wouldn't get any of the mind-expansion that you'd normally get with a liberal arts degree. At my school the number of lib arts credits needed was something on the order of four courses, no foreign language and all the engineering students I knew did nothing but bitch about lib arts classes and spend all the rest of their time wading through non-linear algebra.
When I look back 10 years to when I was in college, most of what I got out of it was intangible but the bits that have stuck with me more than anything else are the courses that actually broadened my horizons. None of them were engineering or math courses. I'd suggest that if you really want an education, get a liberal arts education. Engineering courses are about how to do a specific job so you can get that job, the curriculum has nothing to do with expanding your mind.
Speaking from personal experience, I graduated from University with a degree in Physics, and within two weeks of starting to look for a job, had got one as a programmer with a web agency.
;-) ), plus you necessarily develop problem solving abilities. In our course at least, there was also a compulsory computing laboratory in the first two years, and a couple of other computing-related courses (which all teach basic programming conecpts, plus enough of a language that you can apply them).
:-) )
That was just over 18 months ago, and in that time I've been promoted twice and have seen my salary more than double (and it didn't start off too badly, considering I had no relevant qualifications and very little experience).
Physics has a very strong Mathematical aspect, without being totally incomprehensible to us mere mortals (
Whatever you do decide to do, however, do it because you enjoy it, not because you hope that it'll take you into a career that pays shed-loads. It's better to be happy and comfortable, than rich and miserable (or so I'm told; I'm certainly not rich enough to know
Cheers,
Tim
It's official. Most of you are morons.
ok right now cs and cis people are being hired for the same money, and that is because the market hasn't yet reached its satuation level. many people (myself included) think that the economy in its current state is inflated, and it's due for a down turn.
when the down turn, and possibly a recession, happens the saturation level for the market will decrease. at this point layoffs will occur. now do you think they are going to layoff the people with more education?
the computer science education isn't just more math-they are teaching you how to solve problems logically. the math is a tool. in your job you will be posed with many problems, and your education should prepare you to solve them.
use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
-- john
I think it depends on the school that is being attended. Some schools are better.
I have found that CIS degrees tend to be more cookie cutter oriented. They tend to teach how to do the job on a particular system with one, and maybe more, tools. CIS tends to be lacking in real hardcore programming and problem solving. CIS degrees tend to focus on the system and how use/run it.
A CS oriented degree tends to be more abstract. When it is done abstract, you can migrate from tool to tool and langauge to language with little difficulties. CS tends to develope better logical thinking and problem solving (because of all the math).
I would personally recomend aiming towards the CS degree. It prove better for you in the long run. I went to a liberal arts school and got my CS/Mathematics degree, and I have found I have been able to solve problems quicker than the poeple who didn't. You can always take some CIS courses.
In the end, what matters is what you can prove you can do. Work on Open Source projects to get your name out there, and get internships. You want to start building examples of what you can do to fill your resume.
At the next eco-hypocrisy-meeting, count the private jets used to get to the meeting. Should be interesting to see that
You say you have heard from others that you should get the CIS degree, because they say you can get the same job? The people who told you this probably have CIS degrees. I say this because someone with a CS degree wouldn't likely agree.
Although you can get the same jobs - I work with programmers who got business degrees - you will never be viewed the same way as those with a CS degree. You will have a harder time getting a particular job, especially if you compete with those who have an Engineering degree. The difference in degrees can certainly be made up through experience, but that basically places you a year or more behind where you would be if you had a CS degree.
Another major issue, something many of us value above money, is peer respect. You will have a much harder time earning the respect of your peers if you have the lesser degree. When I was in Engineering college, we refered to the business CIS people as "dropouts". In many cases, this was true - lots of them had been in Engineering at first. The CS degree is harder for a reason. Partly, because you learn more, but also, it tests your mettle, and your future coworkers will think more of you if you make it through the tougher program. Furthermore, it shows that you are truly interested in the knowledge, and that will definitely count among others who feel that way.
A discussion similiar to this already occured on kuro5hin, link here. The outcome of the discussion, revealed during a discussion of possible New Year's resolutions, was that the kid would stick with a CS degree and try hella freaking hard to do it despite the math and hardship, etc. His reasoning escapes me though...
I'm biased being a CS major. I really do get my jollies from reading obscure theory and coding useless stuff. CS = theory, CIS = practical. I figure if you know the theory, you'll be able to do the practical, you'll just have to spend that little extra time poring over manuals, HOWTOs, newsgroups, etc.
--
Peace,
Lord Omlette
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[o]_O
Been in college two years, can't spell the word "sophomore"? Do we really want this kid to enter the workforce? :)
(It's a joke.)
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
I graduated Binghamton (a State Univeristy of New York school) in 96 with a BS in Computer Science and Information Systems. Computer Science Math was a seperate major and focused almost solely on Math. CSIS was heavier on the CS than the IS, but both were there. They actually phased out the CSMath major that year, since enrollment was down, and since the industry had been changing alot.
Most of the CS stuff I learned at Binghamton hasn't been of any use to me in the real world. I've never needed to look back to my logic design courses or circuit stuff. Some of the IS stuff has been handy, like my database courses. Even some of the math stuff has served me well... like statistics.
As far as what you should end up in... it kinda depends on what you want to do... and what is focused on in each degree at your school. If you're planning on going into web development or programming of some sort... as long as the CIS track has enough of that sort of thing (or enough electives to fit em in) go with that. If you want to go into hardware.... or teaching... or if your school only focuses on programming in the CS major... go with that.
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- A.P.
--
* CmdrTaco is an idiot.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
Sure, you're not likely to use the math (or for that matter much from your CS degree!) directly, but a CS degree does nonethless teach you a valuable structured way of thinking, and encourage a disciplined approach. Certainly, the worst programmers - in terms of quality/maintainability of code - I've seen have been those without a CS background.
Regardless of it's "practical" utility, though, a CS degree is going to be preferentially viewed by many screening resumes (incl. myself when I was in that role), and I think it's also resonable to say that if a CS degree (math included) is too tough for you, then it's an indication that you don't have the logical thought capabilities that you'll need to rely on as a programmer.
I have a CS degree (plus a number of EE and CompE hardware classes and most of the coursework for a PhD in CS).
In my paid work, I rarely use any of my coursework. Most of what I do could be done by any smart person with no degree at all. I work in sort of a traditional IS role, building stuff for the business world. Boring at times, but it pays the bills.
Where would I get good use of a CS degree? I see two places: heavy software engineering methodology and heavy math. I did heavy math when I did cardiac MRI software at Siemens. I could do the same somewhere else doing machine learning stuff, 3D graphics, etc. Or I could go to a big company that follows formal SE methodologies.
I work with some people with CIS/MIS degrees. They mainly stick to traditional IS stuff on IBM boxes. Some write code, some do business analysis crud.
I think it all depends on what you want to do. If you want to live in a cube at a big company, CIS or MIS will be fine. CS would work there too, but if you learn the right stuff you should have the option to go do something more exciting. (A friend of mine from college, Greg Stelmack, did this. He went from boring corporate stuff to working on games at Red Storm. It would have been hard to do this without a good math background.)
I'm going to agree and disagree with this.
While a lot of CS degrees do teach just programming languages and things that are going to be gone in a few years, there are CS degrees that will teach the fundamentals behind CS (which includes the math). If you learn those basics of CS (like the design of a programming language, the general structure of computer design, etc.), you will be able to learn whatever language is useful that day. And I bet that you would learn it faster than a CIS.
I agree that Mathematics is important. It teaches you how to think logically. I used to program in HS and it took me awhile to work through the best implementation or best way to solve this little bug. Now, with a Math degree, those problems are easier! I mean, after all, CS IS MATH!
I'll never forget what a very presitigous CS professor at CMU told me. I was going there to interview him about what CS is about. The first thing he told me is that Computer Science has NOTHING to do with computers. It is math. It is the study of what can be computed. Whether you use your PIII or rocks and toilet paper. The answer will come out the same.
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I work as an intern with a computing company, and when I was decided whether to go the cs or cis/mis path, I asked them which they prefered. I was told that, much to my amazement, they prefered cs for both management and development, because they wanted people with programming experience to lead their programmers, so they had a common link. Just my input on the topic.
How Jaded Are You?
If you are only in school to get a job I question whether you should be in school at all. School is to expand your mind. It also lets you get a job.
So the question IMO shouldn't be whether you get paid more for a CS degree vs a CIS degree it should be do you want to learn the things you get from a CS degree.
No - just that which degree you have (CS vs. CIS vs. ECE) doesn't neccesarily mean a lot to a prospective employer. The fact that you finished school in a technical field related to computers is often enough to get you into an interview.
Depends on what questions you ask, really. The ideal questions, and the ones we try to ask, are the ones that allow a person to demonstrate their knowlege of programming, data structures, and their problem solving skills. Asking questions like "What's a string?" tend to get you an entirely different class of answers than "How would you have implemneted cfront?" Agreed... that's what earns them the interview. At that point, they need to demonstrate that they really have learned that certain amount. I have interviewed people who may have been unsung geniuses, but when asked the simplest questions, were unable to explain basic concepts like stacks or linked lists. Either they were unable to function under the slightest amount of pressure, or they were unable to communicate effectively, or they simply didn't understand the concepts. Any one of those, in my mind, is a good enough reason to give someone a thumbs down.Like what? Please explain. I've yet to encounter anything that cannot be taught or learned on the job, or picked up "on the side" while working.
Pardon me - your arrogance is showing. The first people to write databases did figure them out on the job. There are developers in all corners of the globe who somehow manage to limp along and produce some pretty damn good software without the benefit of a CS degree, because they're willing to learn on the job, outside of school. A CS degree is a good foundation for continuing to learn; but do not think for a moment that lack of a degree neccesarily indicates lack of knowledge."Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgement." Job 32:9
Everything else being equal, whichever candidate was best able to answer the technical interview questions.
For someone fresh out of college, a degree is just a foot in the door. There is no way to judge a person's qualifications soley based on whether they were a CS/CIS major. Without any other siginficant work experience, either degree is generally good enough to get you in the door for an interview. (If this isn't the case, then the company probably just isn't interested in hiring a recent graduate, regardless of what their major was.)
I've interviewed new CS grads who seemed to have learned absolutely nothing from fours years of CS classes, and recent CIS and ECE graduates that were extremely competent. Their degrees had little to do with what they actually learned in school. Yah, a CS major is probably going to know more about computer science and sofware development than a CIS major. Differences in schools, cirriculums, electives and in-school work experiences can level things out pretty quickly, though, to the point where any company that makes a decision about a recent grad based solely on whether they have a CS or CIS degree is shooting themselves in the foot.
"Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgement." Job 32:9
Sure the calculus stuff may be a pain in the ass, but do you think that being a professional programmer is always a joy-ride?
If you can't make it through a CS degree, then I'd question if you've really got what it takes to be a programmer unless you're just shooting to do business programming.
Remember also that you're going to be competing for jobs with others who will have CS degrees. Who would YOU pick for a programming job - resume A with the CIS degree, or resume B with the CS degree?
Once you've got 4-5yrs experience the college degree fades in importance, but for a first job IMO a CIS degree would definitely put you at a competetive disadvantage.
And I've learned a lot about the differences between the degrees. Me and my pal are the only CS majors working for this software company. Here's what we deal with daily.
Our company seems to think that memory leaks are ok, because "they'll be running windows and they will have to reboot every couple days anyways, plus they should have 3 GB ram in the server anyways"
It's ok to hit the database every nanosecond and not do any caching. They need to have a heafty machine running the DB anyways, and why are the complaining that our software is slow? It run's fine here when we have 3 users connected at the same time.
I have fought and fought to teach them what proper OO design is, and to seperate business logic code from the GUI. Not to mention that the overall design of our software is so coupled that breaking it out into a web based application will be almost impossible, but that remains to be the long term plan.
Here's the difference. CS is mostly oriented on design and theory, not coding. Anyone can learn to code, all you have to do is understand a syntax. CS is the study of solving problems, while MIS steers more towards business management and system administration (which isn't bad). However, there is a big difference between the two, and some companies don't realize this. That's why people say you can get the same job. I believe though that this will change as more and more people become more and more knowledgable about computers and how they work.
Well, just my 2 cents.
We wouldn't even look at a "CIS" or "MIS" resume. Not enough general poblem solving skills. You shouldn't think of your education as a trade school; any programming language or OS you learn about today would not be used 10 years from now.
(When I was in college, 100 years ago, they were teaching programming courses using IBM 370 Assembly language and PL/I!)
If all you study are programming languages that are likely to be unheard of in a few years, you're wasting your time. Instead, learn Mathematics well. Then you'll be prepared for anything.
If you must get a "computer" degree, certainly go for CS, which is likely to take you to at least Differential Equations. Also be sure to take a lot of music, art, history, and economics courses! All of those have come in very handy when trying to apply my knowledge to different disciplines.
...drop out of college and go to tech-school.
There are many reasons to prefer CS to CIS.
1) You learn more, much of it useful (no, really). If you want to end up programming, you NEED the stuff (both facts and the way of thinking) a CS degree teaches.
2) You'll prove that you can handle what a CS degree requires--to employers and to yourself.
3) A CIS degree's validity will fade rapidly. A CS degree is like a physics degree--you are learning fundamentals of nature, those things don't change.
That's not to say that you should force yourself through a CS program. If you can't handle it or don't care--don't do it! But if what you want is to Make Money Fast On That Internet Thing, you are wasting your time and money taking a CIS degree at a 4 year, liberal arts college. Just go down to DeVry and take VB and a few accounting classes and you'll be all set.
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