Okay, I'll concede that turning off the CSS and JavaScript made it look better and that a HTML 4.0 validated page will render correctly when there's no CSS.
My problem is that I added styles to elements that didn't effect the width of the div's, tables, etc. but the div's and table's width was effected. And if you turn on the JavaScript and CSS again, how in the hell does the CSS validator gif get under the mozilla gif?
I think it goes much beyond layout. Organizing menus and UI for data driven sites is becomming more and more difficult and if the people who organize the standards give us the tools to help us, then why not use it.
well, since the top reasons for visiting sites are 1.) for information and 2.) to buy something, and you do neither, then you're not really part of mainstream web development.
Ummm... I'm pretty sure that database thin-clients have everything to do with #1 but whatever you say.
Yes, this thread has bourne that out, I take a lot of pride in doing a good job - which a lot of you designers don't.
I'm actually using NN4 so I can cut out all the useless junk you people keep inserting into pages - the flash, javascript, CSS - all useless when all I want is the info. Its a great web-filter, and only the useful sites get through.
Look, when making web applications, HTML is a limited enough UI to begin with. When standards organizations approve of new methods and technologies approve of things to help extend the functionality I'm going to jump on it. Just because you insist on using a application that doesn't work with the new standards doesn't mean crap to me. You're getting to be a small enough portion of the population that everyone is starting not to care.
I'll be jumping for joy at that point, since twits like you won't be inserting "javascript fixes" for _my_ benefit.
(apart silly resize one which isn't a problem at all)
I think this may be due to your ignorance. You thought I meant trying to re-size the browser with JavaScript but I actually meant the user re-sizing the browser after the page has been rendered.
You see, this is referred to as the infamous "Netscape resize bug" that every person who has stitched together any DHTML knows about. All layers that have been absolutely positioned all get returned to 0,0 upon the browser re-size. The reason why you don't notice it is because most people have the standard javascript work-around which detects the dimension changes and forces a reload (A real problem if the user has just submitted a form).
Netscape has some serious bugs and performance issues Runs fine for me.
Perhaps you need to uninstall all the trojans and spyware you've got running. Or get a real operating system.
Hmmm.... assuming that BSD and Linux aren't real operating systems, what's your suggestion? The only other thing I'd consider is OSX.
I'm the one with the credit card, you are the one that's trying to sell something. Don't you ever forget that, amazon.co.uk certainly don't.
First of all, most of the "web" things I do has nothing to do with sales. It's mostly thin client database front ends. I'm not trying to sell anything but even if I was, I'd probably still feel the same way.
Let me break it down for you. I still try to double test my stuff for most of you NS4 users but it's getting really old. Now that there are completely acceptable alternatives, it's really, really getting old.
Bottom line: you're a dying breed and you're just to stubborn to actually know it. That's fine but when you guys are almost extinct (like you are now), don't cry when nobody gives a shit about fixing their site for your browser anymore.
Naturally I stopped at the statement "I can write a completely W3C compliant, validated site [w3.org] and have it be utterly useless in NS4."
The _problems_ you listed are all presentational and stylesheet in nature (apart silly resize one which isn't a problem at all), but yet you quote a URL to an HTML validator [w3.org], but not the CSS validator [w3.org]. The ludicrity of that proposition prevented me from continuing since my sides were aching from the unintended humour. To the clueful its obvious that Netscape 4 has a problem with the CSS, not the HTML - I would expect an experienced web developer to know this.
Would you like to give a proper example of a correct HTML page that doesn't work in NN4? (HTML being a markup language used to describe the logical structure of content [w3.org]).
There's not content there yet (it's going to host some JSP taglibs, webapps and JavaBeans) but it's completely fsck'd in Nutscrape 4.x but works in Opera, Mozilla, IE, and Konquorer.
If you want to live in the past, why do you want everyone to suffer with you?
If you want to live in the future, why not use HTML for the purposes for which it was intended, describing document structure, and leave presentation suggestions to CSS. So what that Netscape 4 doesn't play along, hide the stylesheet and move along.
You've gotta be kidding me... we're talking about a lot more than just CSS. Netscape has some serious bugs and performance issues. It's really, really far behind. So much that even Netscape knows it. In fact, everyone knows it but you and 1% of the other web users out there.
The reason why most of the sites still look okay under NS4 is because most people have taken the time to write little javascript fixes or avoid the styles that make NS4 break, etc., etc.. It's a real pain in the ass for most web developers.
kinda sounds like what you just described huh? Guess that coulda saved you a little typing. Oh well, you sound like someone who likes to learn the hard way anyways so it probably wouldn't have helped.
I'm using NS4 myself on a daily basis, since it's the standard browser installed through the company (30,000+ employees), and it's doing just fine.
Dude, do you really have any idea how broken and non-standards compliant Nutscrape 4 is?
Try putting a border style on a href tag and watch it stop working.
Try resizing a netscape window that has absolutely positioned layers.
Try getting your background color on your layers to match the geometry of the div (or span or whatever other block element)
Try writting JavaScript for a browser that doesn't even come close to supporting W3C DOM specs
Try watching your browser completely choke up with a very large table
Ugh, I could go on all friggin day but I think you might get the point. I can write a completely W3C compliant, validated site and have it be utterly useless in NS4.
The reason why most of the sites still look okay under NS4 is because most people have taken the time to write little javascript fixes or avoid the styles that make NS4 break, etc., etc.. It's a real pain in the ass for most web developers.
Mozilla is truly a great browser now (so much better than the early days when Netscape released NS6 with an ALPHA version of Mozilla). There's no reason for web developers to support a legacy product that even Netscape's given up on. If you want to live in the past, why do you want everyone to suffer with you?
Legally anyway. I haven't looked at the EULA for Gamespy (haven't downloaded it, actually), but I'm betting some large odds it'll have some clause in it saying they're not responsible even if it destroys your computer, sets fire to your home, and heralds the End of the World.
If a game doesn't have an ingame browser, then I stick to direct connect, or single player. I shouldn't have to run external programs to play games online.
Most in game browsers are really half assed and lame as hell.
I make a habit of not trusting any software that has to scan your entire harddrive in order to 'find' games.
Well, if you don't have the source to a program, you don't have any idea what it's doing anyways. At least it's telling you. You can always cancel it you know...
One thing I do have to say is that gamespy "Arcade" is really lame compared to Gamespy "3D"... Arcade just seems like a spam filled piece of crap..
The link does the same thing to me when using 1.1alpha on Win2k SP2+ (My primary browser and platform).
Internet Explorer 6 follows the link with no problems.
So I'd say it's a browser issue and not a web page issue.
I got the same error he got when using mozilla so I looked at the source and it's not javascript coming from that page. I followed the link and got the same error so I decided to telnet to port 80 and check out the source on the page and this is what I got:
telnet www.alltheweb.com 80 Trying 66.77.74.20... Connected to www.alltheweb.com. Escape character is '^]'. GET/go/1/H/web/http/www.kaosinc.com/jen.shtml HTTP/1.0
HTTP/1.1 302 Found Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:27:31 GMT Server: Apache/1.3.24 (Unix) PHP/4.2.0-atw X-Powered-By: PHP/4.2.0-atw Location: http://www.kaosinc.com/jen.shtml Connection: close Content-Type: text/html
Looks fine to me.... the 302 (redirect) should be working fine. I wanted to try with IE but my laptop seems to be having somenetwork problems at the moment.
Ultimately it was MS's responsibility to verify they did not shit in their own bed, but how many of us look at every line of code in a distibuted or outsourced project.
Well, you'd think they'd at least compare MD5 sums of the binaries they know didn't change. Besides being easy to do, it's just common sense.
Well, this post seems to indicate that mozilla had tabbed browsing before Opera . I'm not sure about it's accuracy since I've only tried Opera 6 but the majority of the moderators and comments seem to support it.
For what it's worth, gestured mouse operations is hardly a new concept either.
If it doesn't take up space, and will lower the overall cost of the unit by allowing another revenue stream for Tivo, and you don't have to watch it, and it doesn't interfere with the rest of your programming, why is this news? Am I missing something?
Well I think it's pretty damn annoying and presumptuous for one. And it's probably just the start. I don't really wanna sit down and see the annoying "Would you like to change channels to record our spam or stay on the current channel?" prompt everytime I sit down. I turned off the auto-recommendations just because of this.
Oh and uh, the cost doesn't seem to be going down any either.
Until an earthquake's magnitude rises above 6.5, it's really not so bad.
Buildings that cannot withstand a 5.2 earthquake should be investigated.
Not true... there are so many more factors to take into consideration when it comes to earthquakes. The depth, the type (rollers are much worse), the distance, etc.
Something really funky is going on. I type in www.perlbox.org, and the page that loads up is www.camelotnaturals.com
What the hell?
I think they removed the entry from the virtual hosts once the ISP saw the slashdotting. Apache (it's running apache 1.3.20) defaults to the first virtual host if a entry isn't found for the domain being requested. www.camelotnaturals.com is probably that entry.
Looks like they've realized it and replaced it with a blank page. I don't think it was meant as a deceptive advertisement or anything like that.
You're kidding, right? I didn't see any "funny" mod points, so maybe everyone else is just as confused as me. You've GOT to be kidding. This is a PDA. PDA stands for "Personal Digital Assistant". This is NOT a PC. The point of a PC is not to do any of the things you mentioned. It's a gizmo to help you track your schedule, your contacts, and to burn time while waiting in airports. I'm sure that I could also use my manual, push-lawnmower to mow a golf course, too, but that doesn't make it a good fucking idea.
Gee, if everyone had such a limited vision nothing would ever evolve. I fail to see how the mentioned items aren't possible (or a bad idea). It would definitly take some porting, etc. but it's very possible. Hell, it wasn't meant to play quake on either but people are doing it.
If you're happy with what you have, the shut up and be happy.
Does it really matter that it runs linux if it sucks as a PDA? It might have a Gee-Wiz cool factor, but if it sucks it sucks.
I guess that depends on you. If you rely heavily on MS products to get your job done, then ya.... it's probably not that great. I would never expect it to play nice with windows but I'll bet it plays nicely with *nix.
I haven't had the opportunity to use one of these yet so I'm talking out my ass here but I would expect to be able to do some of the following:
compile ssh client/server compile a NFS client/server compile a samba client/server
That would make it play pretty nicely over a wireless network. Take that into account, and the fact that there's a whole slew of other apps available:
OK, I've been debating this over and over in my head. Should I buy a xbox instead of a ps2... There's valid points to be argued on each side.
xbox has superior hardware
ps2 has the games (backwards compatible w/ ps1)
xbox has some exclusive games
ps2 doesn't require a $50 add-on for DVD playback
xbox has a HD so it doesn't require a memory card
there have been some major complaints about xbox hardware and software reliability
I've got to say that this made up my mind. I know it's silly but it's just the straw that broke the camels back. I just bought my PS2 a few hours ago.
I've just got to wonder how long MS can keep shooting themselves (and everyone else) in the foot and get away with it. I keep thinking, "Oh shit! they've really done it now" but everyone just keeps saying, "Oh, that wacky Microsoft, what are ya gonna do?". Nutz to that.
As someone who spent the first 21 years of his life there (OKC), I can tell you that there is a reason for that. I think anyone would be crazy to move there seeing that all I ever wanted to do was get out.
Slashdot Mirror
Looks fine an usable to me, nice work. Next.
Okay, I'll concede that turning off the CSS and JavaScript made it look better and that a HTML 4.0 validated page will render correctly when there's no CSS.
My problem is that I added styles to elements that didn't effect the width of the div's, tables, etc. but the div's and table's width was effected. And if you turn on the JavaScript and CSS again, how in the hell does the CSS validator gif get under the mozilla gif?
I think it goes much beyond layout. Organizing menus and UI for data driven sites is becomming more and more difficult and if the people who organize the standards give us the tools to help us, then why not use it.
well, since the top reasons for visiting sites are 1.) for information and 2.) to buy something, and you do neither, then you're not really part of mainstream web development.
Ummm... I'm pretty sure that database thin-clients have everything to do with #1 but whatever you say.
Yes, this thread has bourne that out, I take a lot of pride in doing a good job - which a lot of you designers don't.
I'm actually using NN4 so I can cut out all the useless junk you people keep inserting into pages - the flash, javascript, CSS - all useless when all I want is the info. Its a great web-filter, and only the useful sites get through.
Look, when making web applications, HTML is a limited enough UI to begin with. When standards organizations approve of new methods and technologies approve of things to help extend the functionality I'm going to jump on it. Just because you insist on using a application that doesn't work with the new standards doesn't mean crap to me. You're getting to be a small enough portion of the population that everyone is starting not to care.
I'll be jumping for joy at that point, since twits like you won't be inserting "javascript fixes" for _my_ benefit.
Too bad nobody will give a shit
(apart silly resize one which isn't a problem at all)
I think this may be due to your ignorance. You thought I meant trying to re-size the browser with JavaScript but I actually meant the user re-sizing the browser after the page has been rendered.
You see, this is referred to as the infamous "Netscape resize bug" that every person who has stitched together any DHTML knows about. All layers that have been absolutely positioned all get returned to 0,0 upon the browser re-size. The reason why you don't notice it is because most people have the standard javascript work-around which detects the dimension changes and forces a reload (A real problem if the user has just submitted a form).
Netscape has some serious bugs and performance issues Runs fine for me.
Perhaps you need to uninstall all the trojans and spyware you've got running. Or get a real operating system.
Hmmm.... assuming that BSD and Linux aren't real operating systems, what's your suggestion? The only other thing I'd consider is OSX.
I'm the one with the credit card, you are the one that's trying to sell something. Don't you ever forget that, amazon.co.uk certainly don't.
First of all, most of the "web" things I do has nothing to do with sales. It's mostly thin client database front ends. I'm not trying to sell anything but even if I was, I'd probably still feel the same way.
Let me break it down for you. I still try to double test my stuff for most of you NS4 users but it's getting really old. Now that there are completely acceptable alternatives, it's really, really getting old.
Bottom line: you're a dying breed and you're just to stubborn to actually know it. That's fine but when you guys are almost extinct (like you are now), don't cry when nobody gives a shit about fixing their site for your browser anymore.
Naturally I stopped at the statement "I can write a completely W3C compliant, validated site [w3.org] and have it be utterly useless in NS4."
The _problems_ you listed are all presentational and stylesheet in nature (apart silly resize one which isn't a problem at all), but yet you quote a URL to an HTML validator [w3.org], but not the CSS validator [w3.org]. The ludicrity of that proposition prevented me from continuing since my sides were aching from the unintended humour. To the clueful its obvious that Netscape 4 has a problem with the CSS, not the HTML - I would expect an experienced web developer to know this.
Would you like to give a proper example of a correct HTML page that doesn't work in NN4? (HTML being a markup language used to describe the logical structure of content [w3.org]).
Here ya go hot shot:
devnull.org
There's not content there yet (it's going to host some JSP taglibs, webapps and JavaBeans) but it's completely fsck'd in Nutscrape 4.x but works in Opera, Mozilla, IE, and Konquorer.
If you want to live in the past, why do you want everyone to suffer with you?
If you want to live in the future, why not use HTML for the purposes for which it was intended, describing document structure, and leave presentation suggestions to CSS. So what that Netscape 4 doesn't play along, hide the stylesheet and move along.
You've gotta be kidding me... we're talking about a lot more than just CSS. Netscape has some serious bugs and performance issues. It's really, really far behind. So much that even Netscape knows it. In fact, everyone knows it but you and 1% of the other web users out there.
Hmm... I guess you didn't read my whole comment:
The reason why most of the sites still look okay under NS4 is because most people have taken the time to write little javascript fixes or avoid the styles that make NS4 break, etc., etc.. It's a real pain in the ass for most web developers.
kinda sounds like what you just described huh? Guess that coulda saved you a little typing. Oh well, you sound like someone who likes to learn the hard way anyways so it probably wouldn't have helped.
Dude, do you really have any idea how broken and non-standards compliant Nutscrape 4 is?
- Try putting a border style on a href tag and watch it stop working.
- Try resizing a netscape window that has absolutely positioned layers.
- Try getting your background color on your layers to match the geometry of the div (or span or whatever other block element)
- Try writting JavaScript for a browser that doesn't even come close to supporting W3C DOM specs
- Try watching your browser completely choke up with a very large table
Ugh, I could go on all friggin day but I think you might get the point. I can write a completely W3C compliant, validated site and have it be utterly useless in NS4.The reason why most of the sites still look okay under NS4 is because most people have taken the time to write little javascript fixes or avoid the styles that make NS4 break, etc., etc.. It's a real pain in the ass for most web developers.
Mozilla is truly a great browser now (so much better than the early days when Netscape released NS6 with an ALPHA version of Mozilla). There's no reason for web developers to support a legacy product that even Netscape's given up on. If you want to live in the past, why do you want everyone to suffer with you?
Legally anyway. I haven't looked at the EULA for Gamespy (haven't downloaded it, actually), but I'm betting some large odds it'll have some clause in it saying they're not responsible even if it destroys your computer, sets fire to your home, and heralds the End of the World.
You mean like this one and this one, and this one, and every other EULA I've ever read?
If a game doesn't have an ingame browser, then I stick to direct connect, or single player. I shouldn't have to run external programs to play games online.
Most in game browsers are really half assed and lame as hell.
I make a habit of not trusting any software that has to scan your entire harddrive in order to 'find' games.
Well, if you don't have the source to a program, you don't have any idea what it's doing anyways. At least it's telling you. You can always cancel it you know...
One thing I do have to say is that gamespy "Arcade" is really lame compared to Gamespy "3D"... Arcade just seems like a spam filled piece of crap..
telnet www.kaosinc.com 80
Trying 192.203.175.245...
Connected to www.kaosinc.com.
Escape character is '^]'.
GET
HTTP/1.1 302 Found
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:51:47 GMT
Server: Apache/1.3.23 (Unix) Debian GNU/Linux PHP/4.1.2 ApacheJServ/1.1.2
Location: http://www.kaosinc.com/index.shtml
Connection: close
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
302 Found
Found
The document has moved here.
Connection closed by foreign host.
I'm guessing you are using Mozilla.
/go/1/H/web/http/www.kaosinc.com/jen.shtml HTTP/1.0
The link does the same thing to me when using 1.1alpha on Win2k SP2+ (My primary browser and platform).
Internet Explorer 6 follows the link with no problems.
So I'd say it's a browser issue and not a web page issue.
I got the same error he got when using mozilla so I looked at the source and it's not javascript coming from that page. I followed the link and got the same error so I decided to telnet to port 80 and check out the source on the page and this is what I got:
telnet www.alltheweb.com 80
Trying 66.77.74.20...
Connected to www.alltheweb.com.
Escape character is '^]'.
GET
HTTP/1.1 302 Found
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:27:31 GMT
Server: Apache/1.3.24 (Unix) PHP/4.2.0-atw
X-Powered-By: PHP/4.2.0-atw
Location: http://www.kaosinc.com/jen.shtml
Connection: close
Content-Type: text/html
Your browser does not support HTTP redirects.
click here to reach http://www.kaosinc.com/jen.shtml.
Connection closed by foreign host.
Looks fine to me.... the 302 (redirect) should be working fine. I wanted to try with IE but my laptop seems to be having somenetwork problems at the moment.
Very, very strange...
Ultimately it was MS's responsibility to verify they did not shit in their own bed, but how many of us look at every line of code in a distibuted or outsourced project.
Well, you'd think they'd at least compare MD5 sums of the binaries they know didn't change. Besides being easy to do, it's just common sense.
Well, this post seems to indicate that mozilla had tabbed browsing before Opera . I'm not sure about it's accuracy since I've only tried Opera 6 but the majority of the moderators and comments seem to support it.
For what it's worth, gestured mouse operations is hardly a new concept either.
If it doesn't take up space, and will lower the overall cost of the unit by allowing another revenue stream for Tivo, and you don't have to watch it, and it doesn't interfere with the rest of your programming, why is this news? Am I missing something?
Well I think it's pretty damn annoying and presumptuous for one. And it's probably just the start. I don't really wanna sit down and see the annoying "Would you like to change channels to record our spam or stay on the current channel?" prompt everytime I sit down. I turned off the auto-recommendations just because of this.
Oh and uh, the cost doesn't seem to be going down any either.
How on earth do all you Californians deal with it? I would be heading out on the next flight.
:)
I just yawn and go back to sleep
Go there if you are in the area of the quake. Report what you felt. Don't make shit up, don't troll the USGS
Hmmm.. you just told the trolls on
Until an earthquake's magnitude rises above 6.5, it's really not so bad.
Buildings that cannot withstand a 5.2 earthquake should be investigated.
Not true... there are so many more factors to take into consideration when it comes to earthquakes. The depth, the type (rollers are much worse), the distance, etc.
Something really funky is going on. I type in www.perlbox.org, and the page that loads up is www.camelotnaturals.com
What the hell?
I think they removed the entry from the virtual hosts once the ISP saw the slashdotting. Apache (it's running apache 1.3.20) defaults to the first virtual host if a entry isn't found for the domain being requested. www.camelotnaturals.com is probably that entry.
Looks like they've realized it and replaced it with a blank page. I don't think it was meant as a deceptive advertisement or anything like that.
The problem is that setup time, head seeks, and rotational delay make it slow for most data accesses which are small.
The reason why these things exist is because of the mechanical components that make up drives. Solid state storage shouldn't have the same limitation.
You're kidding, right? I didn't see any "funny" mod points, so maybe everyone else is just as confused as me. You've GOT to be kidding. This is a PDA. PDA stands for "Personal Digital Assistant". This is NOT a PC. The point of a PC is not to do any of the things you mentioned. It's a gizmo to help you track your schedule, your contacts, and to burn time while waiting in airports. I'm sure that I could also use my manual, push-lawnmower to mow a golf course, too, but that doesn't make it a good fucking idea.
Gee, if everyone had such a limited vision nothing would ever evolve. I fail to see how the mentioned items aren't possible (or a bad idea). It would definitly take some porting, etc. but it's very possible. Hell, it wasn't meant to play quake on either but people are doing it.
If you're happy with what you have, the shut up and be happy.
Does it really matter that it runs linux if it sucks as a PDA? It might have a Gee-Wiz cool factor, but if it sucks it sucks.
I guess that depends on you. If you rely heavily on MS products to get your job done, then ya.... it's probably not that great. I
would never expect it to play nice with windows but I'll bet it plays nicely with *nix.
I haven't had the opportunity to use one of these yet so I'm talking out my ass here but I would expect to be able to do some of
the following:
compile ssh client/server
compile a NFS client/server
compile a samba client/server
That would make it play pretty nicely over a wireless network. Take that into account, and the fact that there's a whole slew of
other apps available:
Freshmeat
SourceForge
and that it supports java out of the box, I can't really see how this is bad. That is unless you're too reliant on MS.
I think the real problem is the same is it has always been for anything other than a MS product.
Here's a past discussion and here's how it's done.
Has anyone actually tried it?
I've got to say that this made up my mind. I know it's silly but it's just the straw that broke the camels back. I just bought my PS2 a few hours ago.
I've just got to wonder how long MS can keep shooting themselves (and everyone else) in the foot and get away with it. I keep thinking, "Oh shit! they've really done it now" but everyone just keeps saying, "Oh, that wacky Microsoft, what are ya gonna do?". Nutz to that.
The cost of living here is SUPER low..
As someone who spent the first 21 years of his life there (OKC), I can tell you that there is a reason for that. I think anyone would be crazy to move there seeing that all I ever wanted to do was get out.