You made a common mistake. You made the mistake of correlating popularity with hype.
Hype may get people's attention, but you don't get the job done for over a decade on hype. Hype doesn't get productivity. Good engineering does.
Lisp, which you mention, is a fantastic language - one of my favourites. But it suffered from the x-million different versions syndrome. There's many different Common Lisps, then there's Scheme, then there's the different OO frameworks, then there's the different incompatible native library interfaces. Lisp is much better in theory than in practice. In fact, if a large company like Sun had taken ownership over Lisp and enforced the consistency that comes with Java, then yes - it probably would have dominated everything.
The fragmenting of the (frankly brilliant) language that is Lisp is a great example of why Sun's stewardship of the Java language has been so beneficial to developers and the language as a whole. It's not magic - Java isn't extremely innovative, it's not all wizzy and new. But it works, it's consistent, it ports well and there's fantastic library support. The Lisp story is VERY different.
Re:Heard it all before....
on
Beyond Java
·
· Score: 1
Sun Java Studio Creator 2 does Ajax as a click and drag process. That's about as easy as it gets.
Re:Heard it all before....
on
Beyond Java
·
· Score: 2, Insightful
"Although I would say it is 'dying'. In some domains of programming, it is not even a contender: - Java Applets are being replaced with Flash, Ajax applications. - The flood of new Ajax applications are being built with productive agile languages. - Windows Applications are being built with Native toolkits, i.e. COM+/MFC,.NET Windows.Forms, QT, GTK, Obj C, etc."
(1) Um. No-one uses Java Applets. They were a 'neat idea' a decade ago - they're not "being replaced" - they're long gone. Java went on and made new ground after applets were dead and buried.
(2) Ajax is not an opposed-to-Java-technology - Java works fine with Ajax. You still have servers with Ajax, servers is a space that Java owns. Jeez, even Sun's Java Studio Creator 2 tool (free) supports Ajax directly.
(3) Native windows apps? When has that *ever* been a space that Java owned? If anything, the Java desktop story is improving - it's gone from non existant to a small presence.
I mean, you raise Web2.0 like somehow that's opposed to Java? What the hell? A language which has been designed to work on the web from the get-go is hardly going to suffer because of Web BUZZWORD two dot oh.
I'm always wondering why Python is left out from this kind of conversations. Python is the best language I've ever worked with. It's very human friendly, no need to learn/read/write hieroglyphs, like in Ruby or Perl. Very compact, no need to write a pages of text to print Hello World, like in Java.
For christ's sake - would people stop making these STUPID comparisons?
Java is not designed to write "hello world" in one line or less, it's designed to solve big, complex problems quickly, safely and maintainably. Look at something like checked exceptions - that's a PITA if all you are concerned with is a quick scripted hack, but it's important when you're writing huge systems that need to be resilient in the face of the unexpected.
Java IS NOT A SCRIPTING LANGUAGE. Stop comparing it to one. Java properly contrasts with C, ADA or C++
You've never done anything in Java yet you know all about it? I present the typical Slashbot slackjaw.
"Java is an advertising name"????
FFS, this is typical anti Java FUD. You don't go from new to used by IBM, Apple, Google, eBay, most fortune 500 companies in the world by advertising. People like IBM and Google have actual engineers -you know, people with brains. The kind of people who probably even try technologies before presuming to pass judgement on them.
Moron.
Re:java compared to scripting languages?
on
Beyond Java
·
· Score: 1
No. It isn't. This doesn't stop Slashbots doing so ad-infinitum.
Heard it all before....
on
Beyond Java
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
I've heard this crap before, and usually on slashdot where the editor's BIAS against Java is demonstrated ably by the utter crap anti Java FUD they promote to the main page.
Java is omnnipresent in the marketplace and contra the usual/. FUD, that is not because of "marketing" or "hype". You can't survive over a decade on hype - eventually you need to walk the walk, which Java has done and is still doing.
Java utterly dwarfs Ruby or Python in the workplace, and that's not because Ruby needs more time - Ruby has been around for ages already, it's just not what people want to use. The fact that Rails is a nice solution to ONE single problem domain doesn't make the Ruby language a success - in fact, a simple perusal of the numbers shows that Ruby doesn't even figure. Go read the book sales numbers for Ruby - all but nonexistant compared to Java.
Show me where the tool support for Ruby is. Show me Ruby for cellphones, show me Ruby on embedded devices. Show me enterprise level Ruby. Go look at eBay - running Java, go look at Google - running Java, go look at IBM and Apple - strong proponents of Java. Why? Not fucking hype, but because it does the fucking job well - DESPITE the bleating of whiney assed slashbot fan boys. Grow the fuck up, Java is successful because it is good at getting stuff done. End of story.
Sourceforge is now dominated by Java - more FOSS is coming out made in Java than C or C++. Compare the supposed "Java killers" like C#, Ruby - they don't even figure.
This whole "Java is dead" thing is utter crap and merely reflects the/. editors' own bias against the language.
Java will be superceded at some point, all languages fade from the number one spot at some point, but none of the current crop of tin pot alternatives being bandied around on/. will be the language to do it.
FFS - I had exactly the same experience - install from CDs, install steam, wait for steam updates to download, wait for steam to install updates, wait for steam to download HL2 updates, wait for those to install.
About four hours is correct. Then the game itself is like an interactive waiting simulation - why the hell were there so many loading screens? Walk for a minute, load, walk for another minute, load...
I thought PC games were past this kind of crap.
Personally, Steam is the reason I will never shell out another dollar for a Valve product. And HL2 is the most overrated piece of crap "game" ever.
Stalin was *not* the people's choice you moron. He was hardly elected. And people *did* fight against Stalin - they're the people he had murdered. You say the people get the government they choose. Do you REALLY think that people in Stalinist Russia CHOSE to be murdered for opposing Stalin?
You suck on your silver spoon and tell everyone else how easy the road to freedom is - I'm sure the oppressed throughout history would be so much better and more enlightened if they only could have heard your words first... you simply have to wish it so, and *poof*! Freedom by magic!
Think of all the bloodshed that could have been avoided if your wisdom had only been known earlier...
How do you see what the GP said as willingness to support fascism?
It helps them censor alternate opinions and present only the party line. That's pretty much the definition of Fascism.
And as an American who does care about freedom of all humans, I feel that those humans should be willing to fight for their freedom. If you can't get off your ass to rid yourself of oppression, why should I help you? You see, I include the freedom to CHOOSE YOUR OWN FORM OF GOVERNMENT as an essential freedom!
Easy for you to say when you are born into freedom. I'd suggest that people under Stalin's rule, or Hitler's or any other oppressive regiem were not to simply 'just choose' whatever regiem they want.
Black South Africans struggled for freedom, and the help of the outside world was a big factor in their achieving their goal. Was opposing apartheid a "right" thing to do? Yes, it was. And opposing regiems that oppress their people is always a good thing to do.
I see, you Americans only care about the freedom of those sitting on oil reserves, is that it?
Grow a fucking backbone. Freedom is worth fighting for - if that's *REALLY* what you believe in. The ability for dollars to sway your morality suggests that it isn't.
If you say "do no evil", and then you do, would you be suprised that people are upset?
What fucking "moral dilemma"? It's simply a matter of being true to your word. If that's not clear enough for you, your moral compass is clearly set very differently to mine.
Your willingness to support facism is disturbing. So much for standing up for freedom, as Americans are reputed to do.
You care about freedom of people sitting on oil fields, but don't care about a billion human beings in a facist state. Interesting reflection on American values.
I can't believe you got modded 'insightful'. Being complicit in allowing a repressive regiem to repress its people is evil, no matter how you slice it.
I know we all love Google, but don't let that blind you to the immorality of helping China restrict free and frank debate.
You're a moron and I'll prove it
on
Wicked Cool Java
·
· Score: 1
ebay google azureus eclipse oracle stored procedures jedit tribal trouble
you might try digg - the feedback isn't as good as/. (no threading) but the editorial selection is at least free from the/. editor's rather obvious biases
I see the red neck is shining out from behind/.'s red, white and blue collar.
I know you guys are US based, but for Christ's sake, get to grips with the fact that there is a "rest of the world" which exists entirely on it's own and doesn't necessarily *have* to do everything via the US, nor even *want* to.
First of all, the spin in the original article is pure FUD - Oracle are claiming that Java gives them an advantage over SAP. The author's relating this to.NET is pure spite and FUD.
BIIIG suprise that the slashbot crowd fall for it hook line and sinker. Get a clue you morons! Java is now the leading language for Open Source software yet you keep bleating about Sun as if they're the anti christ. They're a company that have open sourced a tonne of their IP, they give their tools away for free they also allow anyone to build a Java stack and yet you malcontent wankers still bleat about Sun being evil.
Slashdot Mirror
You made a common mistake. You made the mistake of correlating popularity with hype.
Hype may get people's attention, but you don't get the job done for over a decade on hype. Hype doesn't get productivity. Good engineering does.
Lisp, which you mention, is a fantastic language - one of my favourites. But it suffered from the x-million different versions syndrome. There's many different Common Lisps, then there's Scheme, then there's the different OO frameworks, then there's the different incompatible native library interfaces. Lisp is much better in theory than in practice. In fact, if a large company like Sun had taken ownership over Lisp and enforced the consistency that comes with Java, then yes - it probably would have dominated everything.
The fragmenting of the (frankly brilliant) language that is Lisp is a great example of why Sun's stewardship of the Java language has been so beneficial to developers and the language as a whole. It's not magic - Java isn't extremely innovative, it's not all wizzy and new. But it works, it's consistent, it ports well and there's fantastic library support. The Lisp story is VERY different.
Sun Java Studio Creator 2 does Ajax as a click and drag process. That's about as easy as it gets.
"Although I would say it is 'dying'. In some domains of programming, it is not even a contender:
- Java Applets are being replaced with Flash, Ajax applications.
- The flood of new Ajax applications are being built with productive agile languages.
- Windows Applications are being built with Native toolkits, i.e. COM+/MFC,.NET Windows.Forms, QT, GTK, Obj C, etc."
(1) Um. No-one uses Java Applets. They were a 'neat idea' a decade ago - they're not "being replaced" - they're long gone. Java went on and made new ground after applets were dead and buried.
(2) Ajax is not an opposed-to-Java-technology - Java works fine with Ajax. You still have servers with Ajax, servers is a space that Java owns. Jeez, even Sun's Java Studio Creator 2 tool (free) supports Ajax directly.
(3) Native windows apps? When has that *ever* been a space that Java owned?
If anything, the Java desktop story is improving - it's gone from non existant to a small presence.
I mean, you raise Web2.0 like somehow that's opposed to Java? What the hell? A language which has been designed to work on the web from the get-go is hardly going to suffer because of Web BUZZWORD two dot oh.
I'm always wondering why Python is left out from this kind of conversations.
Python is the best language I've ever worked with. It's very human friendly, no need to learn/read/write hieroglyphs, like in Ruby or Perl. Very compact, no need to write a pages of text to print Hello World, like in Java.
For christ's sake - would people stop making these STUPID comparisons?
Java is not designed to write "hello world" in one line or less, it's designed to solve big, complex problems quickly, safely and maintainably. Look at something like checked exceptions - that's a PITA if all you are concerned with is a quick scripted hack, but it's important when you're writing huge systems that need to be resilient in the face of the unexpected.
Java IS NOT A SCRIPTING LANGUAGE. Stop comparing it to one. Java properly contrasts with C, ADA or C++
You've never done anything in Java yet you know all about it? I present the typical Slashbot slackjaw.
"Java is an advertising name"????
FFS, this is typical anti Java FUD. You don't go from new to used by IBM, Apple, Google, eBay, most fortune 500 companies in the world by advertising. People like IBM and Google have actual engineers -you know, people with brains. The kind of people who probably even try technologies before presuming to pass judgement on them.
Moron.
No. It isn't. This doesn't stop Slashbots doing so ad-infinitum.
I've heard this crap before, and usually on slashdot where the editor's BIAS against Java is demonstrated ably by the utter crap anti Java FUD they promote to the main page.
/. FUD, that is not because of "marketing" or "hype". You can't survive over a decade on hype - eventually you need to walk the walk, which Java has done and is still doing.
/. editors' own bias against the language.
/. will be the language to do it.
Java is omnnipresent in the marketplace and contra the usual
Java utterly dwarfs Ruby or Python in the workplace, and that's not because Ruby needs more time - Ruby has been around for ages already, it's just not what people want to use. The fact that Rails is a nice solution to ONE single problem domain doesn't make the Ruby language a success - in fact, a simple perusal of the numbers shows that Ruby doesn't even figure. Go read the book sales numbers for Ruby - all but nonexistant compared to Java.
Show me where the tool support for Ruby is. Show me Ruby for cellphones, show me Ruby on embedded devices. Show me enterprise level Ruby. Go look at eBay - running Java, go look at Google - running Java, go look at IBM and Apple - strong proponents of Java. Why? Not fucking hype, but because it does the fucking job well - DESPITE the bleating of whiney assed slashbot fan boys. Grow the fuck up, Java is successful because it is good at getting stuff done. End of story.
Sourceforge is now dominated by Java - more FOSS is coming out made in Java than C or C++. Compare the supposed "Java killers" like C#, Ruby - they don't even figure.
This whole "Java is dead" thing is utter crap and merely reflects the
Java will be superceded at some point, all languages fade from the number one spot at some point, but none of the current crop of tin pot alternatives being bandied around on
Why the fuck was that modded "troll"???
FFS - I had exactly the same experience - install from CDs, install steam, wait for steam updates to download, wait for steam to install updates, wait for steam to download HL2 updates, wait for those to install.
About four hours is correct. Then the game itself is like an interactive waiting simulation - why the hell were there so many loading screens? Walk for a minute, load, walk for another minute, load...
I thought PC games were past this kind of crap.
Personally, Steam is the reason I will never shell out another dollar for a Valve product. And HL2 is the most overrated piece of crap "game" ever.
Java *is* open source, just not the exact license *you* want them to release under, apparantly.
Stalin was *not* the people's choice you moron. He was hardly elected. And people *did* fight against Stalin - they're the people he had murdered. You say the people get the government they choose. Do you REALLY think that people in Stalinist Russia CHOSE to be murdered for opposing Stalin?
You suck on your silver spoon and tell everyone else how easy the road to freedom is - I'm sure the oppressed throughout history would be so much better and more enlightened if they only could have heard your words first... you simply have to wish it so, and *poof*! Freedom by magic!
Think of all the bloodshed that could have been avoided if your wisdom had only been known earlier...
Only if you think supporting facism isn't evil.
China : "Support our facist regiem lie to its people"
Google: "No".
You're fucking right - it really requires a mega brain to figure that one out.
How do you see what the GP said as willingness to support fascism?
It helps them censor alternate opinions and present only the party line. That's pretty much the definition of Fascism.
And as an American who does care about freedom of all humans, I feel that those humans should be willing to fight for their freedom. If you can't get off your ass to rid yourself of oppression, why should I help you? You see, I include the freedom to CHOOSE YOUR OWN FORM OF GOVERNMENT as an essential freedom!
Easy for you to say when you are born into freedom. I'd suggest that people under Stalin's rule, or Hitler's or any other oppressive regiem were not to simply 'just choose' whatever regiem they want.
Black South Africans struggled for freedom, and the help of the outside world was a big factor in their achieving their goal. Was opposing apartheid a "right" thing to do? Yes, it was. And opposing regiems that oppress their people is always a good thing to do.
I see, you Americans only care about the freedom of those sitting on oil reserves, is that it?
Grow a fucking backbone. Freedom is worth fighting for - if that's *REALLY* what you believe in. The ability for dollars to sway your morality suggests that it isn't.
You disgust me.
Simple question for you: is lying bad?
Most people think it is.
If you say "do no evil", and then you do, would you be suprised that people are upset?
What fucking "moral dilemma"? It's simply a matter of being true to your word. If that's not clear enough for you, your moral compass is clearly set very differently to mine.
Amen, brother :o)
Well said.
Your willingness to support facism is disturbing. So much for standing up for freedom, as Americans are reputed to do.
You care about freedom of people sitting on oil fields, but don't care about a billion human beings in a facist state. Interesting reflection on American values.
I can't believe you got modded 'insightful'. Being complicit in allowing a repressive regiem to repress its people is evil, no matter how you slice it.
I know we all love Google, but don't let that blind you to the immorality of helping China restrict free and frank debate.
ebay
google
azureus
eclipse
oracle stored procedures
jedit
tribal trouble
most of the enterprise websites on the planet
etc... etc...
Bullshit. M$ were suing users of M$ BASIC before they were a monolithic company. M$ have a LONG history of dodgy dealing.
you might try digg - the feedback isn't as good as /. (no threading) but the editorial selection is at least free from the /. editor's rather obvious biases
Sounds rather like Warhammer FRP
I see the red neck is shining out from behind /.'s red, white and blue collar.
I know you guys are US based, but for Christ's sake, get to grips with the fact that there is a "rest of the world" which exists entirely on it's own and doesn't necessarily *have* to do everything via the US, nor even *want* to.
...out in force again, I see.
.NET is pure spite and FUD.
First of all, the spin in the original article is pure FUD - Oracle are claiming that Java gives them an advantage over SAP. The author's relating this to
BIIIG suprise that the slashbot crowd fall for it hook line and sinker. Get a clue you morons! Java is now the leading language for Open Source software yet you keep bleating about Sun as if they're the anti christ. They're a company that have open sourced a tonne of their IP, they give their tools away for free they also allow anyone to build a Java stack and yet you malcontent wankers still bleat about Sun being evil.
Fuck the lot of you halfwit morons.
Even the literal meaning doesn't work - he's claiming they'd make something approaching humanity, let alone devinity.
But yeah, it's a literary term, the authour is a tool.