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Google's Action Makes A Mockery Of Its Values
Jason Jardine linked us to a well written piece discussing how Google has thus far promised to Do No Evil, but their recent decisions regarding censorship in china
make a mockery of those values. We've been following this story all along, but I thought this article makes good food for thought.
Had it been any other company, I would not have cared. But the point is, if you are a company that says "Do No Evil" and use that as a corporate strategy to try and earn good karma, you'd better hold on to it.
Did Microsoft say that they would do no evil? No, they did not.
On the other hand, Google tries to project the image of being Oh-so-Good and is being hypocritical about it.
If you are going to have a corporate value, stick to the bloody thing. Else don't flaunt it or be selective in its use.
This is what made me lose respect for Google - the fact that their so-called-values disappear at the first sign of money. Bah, what's the point then?
Google uses its values for no reason other than for purely strategy purposes:
Of course, most folks don't realize that like every other company, the moment money comes into picture, all values go out of the window.
Do no evil, my ass. They're worse than companies which do evil, because they don't preach something and practice hypocrisy.
Sheesh, shameless folks.
It's evil to obey laws... I see...
When they sold the stock their creed changed from "Do no evil" to "Do no evil to our stockholders".
Quality Hosting e3 Servers
When the laws themself violate basic human rights it is indeed evil to follow them.
i know it doesn't really fit google's policy, but i can very well understand that they can't let go of such a huge potential market, and even more important, WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE???
now infrastructure of the chinese governement is doing the censoring, causing terrible speeds and pages just not loading... all google is doing is making the service available as it is atm (censored, no way around that) at good speed...
i don't like the censor either, but it's not as if google has got anything to say about it, neither will the chinese users have any ill effects of it (rather the opposite, if they choose to use google it'll be at decent speed now...)
There's an excellent article or two discussing Google past, present and future in today's Guardian, as well. The second one is the better.
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
I couldn't agree more, but is it a reporter's job to judge weather or not a company following the governments orders is evil? And in this case is it Google that is being evil, or china itself? Why should google be the one to stick it's neck out.
However, I do agree that google is making the wrong move here, I just like to play the devil's advocate.
It passionately claims that "Google has steadfastly refused to make any change that does not offer a benefit to the users who come to the site."
How about this as a benefit. The person in China using Google doesn't wind up in jail or worse a bill to his family from the state for the bullet.
This is beyond the obvious of China not letting Google do business there.
Google sees no evil by choosing not to see evil.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
google is respecting the wishes of a sovereign nation. we, the people who know what is good and right, may not condone what the chinese guvmnt does, but at least google is doing what it needs to do to maintain its presence in china, and do what is best for stockholders as well. just because they sensor some sites, doesn't mean the people won't find a way to get the information they need.
Now whose "evil" are we talking about? In the US, it's clear from our constitution and bill of rights what we, as a country, hold valuable and consider "evil".
However, as so many people like to say, the US is not the rest of the world. There are other countries, with other values, and they aren't necessarily the same as ours. Are they "wrong"? What makes ours "right"? Because we like them?
Who is trying to push morals/values/ethics on someone else now? Or is this just what we say when we don't like the morals/values/ethics in question?
Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage
I'm sorry I don't see what is wrong with obeying the laws of a country in which you do business. Would a European company be evil if it sold non-lead-free electronics in the US? No, it wouldn't... even though they would be breaking the law to sell the same thing in Europe (look up RoHS compliance). Freedom of speech is not the same thing as torture; I think it is indeed up to a country to decide for itself what level of speech can be tolerated (even in the US, there are a lot of things you can't say).
If Google promoted censorship in the US, then I would be unhappy. However I'm not going to fault them for playing by the rules wherever they operate.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
Google's refusal to hand over search terms to the Feds is a good thing, let's not forget that. But cozying up to the Chinese makes me think they're on their way to a least-common-denominator set of policies about censorship. And that is most decidedly a bad thing.
Dog is my co-pilot.
Sometimes you cant avoid harming, good intentions or not, but you can take a path that gives the minimum/less permanent damage.
If it were the case that Google had leverage with the Chinese government, and if they could use that leverage to eradicate censorship in China, then perhaps the arguments of hypocrisy would hold water. This, however, is not the case.
The simple fact is, with or without Google operating in China, censorship there will continue to exist. If we assume that this is the case, and further that Google can only operate in China if they agree to abide by the laws in China (regardless of what we think of those laws), then there are only two possible scenarios.
Unless you can make the argument (and, in my estimation, it is an incoherent one) that somehow Google sans censorship is a net positive value to the Chinese citizenry, but censored Google is a net negative value, you must necessarily conclude that some access to Google is better than none.
Fundamentally, the censorship is China's fault, not Google's. They're doing their best to ensure that they give as much access as they can to the people in China.
-rsw
Isn't this more a question of censoring the search results? Uncensored search results are not a basic human right. They're just a thing we think we have until the FBI comes knocking on the door.
...number 8 is "Information Knows No Borders"
I spent most of middle school and high school on my computer. I grew up learning as much as I could about them. Part way through my 7th grade year I heard about nano-tech.
As google grew in power I, like most, wanted to know more about them so I looked into what they did as a company. I saw what I liked. They were said to be doing more for the open source community and on top of that I loved their services. Their mission statement especially impressed me.
When I heard that they were opening a new lab that would focus on combining bio, nanotech and comp sci I decided that I wanted to work there...
Now....eh.... lets just say that its s bit of a let down
We seldom regret saying too little but often regret saying too much.
So Google has the choice to either not do business in China or do what they're doing now.
Others are suggesting that there is a third option which is that it should be"using its market power to support free speech and influence the Chinese government ". How exactly would that work? What do they expect Google to do?
China and practically the entire world knows that China is poised to become the worlds biggest economy in the coming years. They know it and I don't think businesses really have ANY influence over them.
Doesn't Google filter our results because of the DMCA? Often (more so now than I can remember) I get notices saying "These results have been filtered in accordance with the DMCA*" or something smiliar.
They are a business not a friend, they have to do whats best for them, and obey the laws of the countries they work with.
*Someone do a bunch of random google searches (usually for pretty ladies) and you will get the result, I can't do that from work. When you get the line about the DMCA please cut and paste it here. Sorry, can't search for pr0n at work.
As the famout Chinese Proverb says:
"Your neighbor's wife looks prettier than your own."
oh wait, that's not the right one...
Do good, reap good; do evil, reap evil.
Chinese Proverb
Google and other US companies making human rights concessions with China is a horrible showing for the US.
Basically, it says we give up rights for money. That's BS. We give up rights to fight trrrsts!
Seriously, though.. we should be sticking it to China every chance we get.
--- We need more Ron Paul!
Google always maintains it will do no evil, and yet its action is gradually becoming debatable.
Bill Gates never says he will do no evil, and yet his charity works are clocking to few billion dollars.
Uncensored Google results requested and delivered by email
What I think is evil may not be evil to you and vice versa.
If Google were to have implemented a whitelist that was managed by China, and only allow a search based on this, I'd agree with the spirit of these criticisms completely. However, the implementation that exists seems to leave plenty of room for people to find ways to know that they can access real information despite the limitations. Having a common search engine with the rest of the world will allow an easier path to the "grey market" of outside oppinions than may otherwise be unavailable to casual searchers.
Still, this level of "cooperation" with the Chinese censors shows no inherent sign that Google won't be ratcheting up their limitations on the engine even further... I see no limits in place to make sure further corruption won't happen. Perhaps behind the scenes, they exist, but in the context, I do agree with this part of the criticism of Google's actions.
Still Google as it now exists is a nice window in the firewall of China, even if it has been smudged. At least it's open enough for open source projects of various sorts to know how to build a door for those interested.
"Do no evil" is a pretty dangerous moral philosophy, since it is stated purely in negative terms. To suggest some potential snares:
What is evil?
Is 'evil' any act that harms anybody?
Is it evil to cause a minor inconvenience? Is there some threshold?
If an action benefits a group A of people much more than it harms group B, is that evil?
If harm only results as a side effect of an action, is that action evil?
If some harmful action X is already ongoing, and will continue to go on just as strongly regardless if what you do, is it necessarily evil for you to assist with X?
Something more along the lines of "do good to other people" is the way to go.
Evil can only properly be understood as being the rejection of that which is good. And yes, Google's action is being evil.
Wouldn't the supporting of censorship or giving into the government of China pretty much be a requirement if they want to do business in China?
I guess the other option is to not do business there at all.
The censorship is and will be there regardless of any new company that comes in to do business. I guess the act of Google or any company doing what the government wants could be considered supporting the censorship but specific companies not doing business over there is not going to change anything either. The people there need to start the change and we've all seen how bad that could turn out from previous attempts.
So far, I'm on the fence for this one.
Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
And once again, a practice that every single other company in the world practices-- in this case, following the law in China when selling services to China-- becomes controversial as soon as Google does it, controversial to an extent that mostly drowns out the occasional acclaim Google gets when it stands up for its principles. Meanwhile other U.S. companies go far beyond just following the law and into the realm of actually assisting and profiteering from the Chinese autocracy, doing things like selling China hardware specifically designed to censor dissidents, with at best a fraction of the outrage.
As long as google.tw remains uncensored, I don't see what the problem here is. If Google were to stick to some kind of vague principles and refuse to censor Chinese search results, it would help no one-- not Google, not the Chinese people, not Chinese dissidents, anyone. The only effect would be that China would wind up cutting off Google entirely at the firewall, just so American slashdotters could feel good about their search engine. Why bother? We don't know whether Google really cares about the wellbeing of the people of China, but we know for a fact the Chinese government doesn't.
From what I've seen, Evil triumphs.
In the US they were forced to take sites off that link to torrents of fucking music. Now in China they are forced to take away other links that are illegal in the country. Those are the laws, Google is in no position to make a moral judgement on those laws. Quit whining.
However, I do agree that google is making the wrong move here
I can't agree with your point. It is an either limited or blocked access situation. If Google does not make that decision, they can be totally blocked from <Insert A Country Here>'s Internet access.They had no choice in this matter. If they didn't do it, nobody in China would beable to access Google. It's not like by doing this they are taking something away from the Chinese people. They are giving Chinese people access to a search engine controlled and censored by a US company instead of the Chinese goverment. In my opinion that's a good thing. Here's the facts. The Chinese goverment will not allow their citizens access to free information. If you try to supply it, people who are caught searching for it are caught accessing the information and they can be prosecuted. If you want to get mad at someone get mad at China, getting mad at google is just silly.
Or something along those lines.
CS: It is all sink or swim...oh and did I mention there are sharks in that water?
Yes, up front, let's recognize that money is a factor. But this is no surprise. Money is ALWAYS a factor. That has nothing to do with whether or not Google is doing the right thing. There are more important factors involved:
(1) If Google did not censor their content for China, Google would not be allowed into China at all. Google is an incredibly valuable resource for anyone looking for information. What's worse? Giving the Chinese as much information as Chinese law allows? Or leaving them with nothing at all?
(2) What is the "right thing"? By whose terms? We're arrogantly acting like American values of free speech are the only possible meaningful set of values. Don't get me wrong; from my perspective, free speech is vital, and China is only hurting itself by being totalitarian. But by the standards of the Chinese government and many Chinese people, Google is most CERTAINLY doing the "right thing" by censoring content.
So, when it comes down to it, all Google is doing is obeying the law, just as they would have to do if the US government passed some horribly boneheaded law. It's either that or go out of business. Are you so foolish as to think that Google could resist the censorship and somehow manage to bully the Chinese government into allowing Google access from within China anyway? Come back when you have your head out of your ass.
And at what point did the Chinese people decide this? At what point did they have a popular, 99% corruption-free referendum where they decided to cede all control over speech to their central government?
China is not democratic, and thus its government doesn't represent the will of the majority. Did you ever think that they might actually like to be able to search for whatever they want? With the furor over Wikipedia getting blocked off and on, it should be pretty obvious that most educated Chinese at least are not big fans of this.
But you'd never know since people who really come out with anti-Communist government views in China are routinely charged with the equivalent of felonies and locked away for as long as twenty years to life. Even more so for the ones who publish those views where westerners can easily see them. Afterall, they can't have their utopia questioned, now can they?
Perhaps Google is simply trying to become evil like Slashdot has been.
You go on vacation in China and start touting about a Free Tibette, you may get arrested, deported, detained, or something to make your remaining time mizerable. So when you go to China for vacation you keep your mouth shut about the politics and human rights and just injoy yourself.
China is a rapidly modernizing state, but its politcs are stuck in the 1960s. But without Google they will still be very isolated (Internet wise). Even if google does censor the information they are doing more good then harm. What Google can do is give people ideas that are not directly connected to the censored items and have them figure it out themselfs.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
I am sorry but I think you are completely wrong on this. I believe Google is doing more good than harm. Every time a link is cencored, Google is letting the user know that a link has been censored - I am sure MSN and Yahoo are not doing that. Do you think the Chinese people are aware of the level of cencorship they are subjected to? I think this will be an education for the Chinese people. Frankly I am surprised that the Chinese governemtn agreed to this - allowing Google to inform the user every time an item was cencorsed.
Here's a great idea - let the rest of the world know which of there search results wouldn't be accessable in China.
Maybe Google should stop working in US since US tortures detainees and invades other contries at its will. Do no evil, you know... Ultimate goal of all companies is to make money. Period. Take it or leave it. And please stop braggin' bout it.
All the argument used to defend Google could also have been used to defend companies that helped facilitate the slave trade.
"Honoring a sovereign nation" - Check
"Every culture has different values" - Check
"Working within the law to make some money" - Check
And with the argument of, "We will be nice to the slaves, and since other companies would undoubtedly step in and be cruel to them - we are justified in our assistance," we complete the similarities.
Money rules all - there's nothing new under the sun.
How would the Chinese people know about the censorship if no one tells them about it? Their government controls their media and as far as the average person would be concerned, there's nothing going on.
Remember a few years ago when that Chinese jet crashed into that E-3? As far as the chinese citizens were concerned, that prop driven E-3 chased down that fighter jet and brought it down. All according to their government.
So when I first followed this site religiously, about 3 months ago, I loved scrolling down and reading the discussion. I found the people who wrote stuff here intelligent, varied, and above all hilarious.
/.'ers applaud or defend depending on story. Everytime Google and China pops up, /.'ers heckle, boo, and preach about hypocrisy and the "evils" of the Chinese government and how COMMUNIST China is when I daresay most /.'ers posting these sort of comments have never set foot in China in the past couple years (0-10 if you want definition).
Though the more you read, the more times you read, and the longer the time span, just makes you realize the same sorts of comments get made over and over again.
This Google chain is perhaps the greatest example. Everytime Google pops up,
I don't have an account because I don't comment enough to warrant and if I did it would just get lost in the hundreds of comments per post anyways like this comment will because people will call me "blind" or "ignorant" or whatever for taking the time to stand up for the "evil" government of china and its censoring ways so this will pbly get modded out to a zero and just become lost, but that's fine. I just wanted to vent at my frustration.
Then again, it's a pretty solid proof of Asimov's concept that he expounded upon in his Foundation series. You get enough people that are individually random together and the group becomes much more predictable, to the point of certainty even.
**Note: this is not to say there isn't the rare jewel of a good, new, interesting, and well written post once awhile and to those people whose thinking go beyond Boolean logic, I applaud them.
Basically the idea is that if a law is unjust, it is your duty not to obey it.
The days of the digital watch are numbered.
I forgot who said that, but there was an argument that evil is actually lack of good.
It's an op-ed you dimwit.
This is returned (twice in this case) when you search for Kazaa:
"In response to a complaint we received under the US Digital Millennium Copyright Act, we have removed 1 result(s) from this page. If you wish, you may read the DMCA complaint that caused the removal(s) at ChillingEffects.org."
Google is the highest-profile player in the game of free access vs. government control, but the larger battle has been going on for years. Unfortunately, governments are winning. What's fascinating to me is just how much the law of unintended consequences comes into play here. The first shot in this war was French government's battle with Yahoo! over Nazi-related materials. Seems like a good idea to keep those nasty Nazis from using the Net to spread their vile beliefs. Unfortunately, once you put down a few barriers, before too long you wind up with the Great Firewall of China.
Yesterday in one of my law classes we had a discussion (related to the discovery process) about the DOJ's subpoena of Google. More than one of my fellow students stated that expecting any sort of privacy on the Internet was absurd. They simply didn't feel that it should be expected, given that they'd grown up with an Internet full of privacy warnings, cookies, GeoIP monitoring, and so on. I mentioned the infamous "On the Internet nobody knows you're a dog" cartoon and they just looked at me blankly, as if I were a 90 year old man whistfully recalling the days when ice cream sodas cost a nickel.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
"Universal Human Rights" means "Universal Human Rights".
It doesn't mean "Human Rights, Except If The Local People In Power Don't Feel Like It".
So you think that good and evil should be determined by the Chinese government, if we're in China. Great. So that policeman in a Chinese jail who beats a prisoner to death feels his actions are good, rather than evil. Well, I think it's evil-- but the policeman was Chinese, and he beat the prisoner to death in China, so that must mean that the action was good! Hey, wait a minute, I wonder whether the guy who got beaten to death thought the beating was good or evil. No, never mind, that's not important. It would be wrong if the man being beaten to death were to try to impose his values on the policeman.
If any of you actually try the new google.cn page, you will find that it's Google who makes a mockery of China's censorship policy. All the sensitive string I tried like "june4th" in either English or Chinese have returned links on the first few pages that are highly critical to the government. On top of that even if the link is blocked, the user can still get the text content through google cache - a highspeed backdoor through the firewall.
By blocking content and listing that it's blocked and why then the people seeing that message will know they are missing something and might want to try and change their government to allow it.
If they had chosen not to then China would block them completely and only allow their own search engine which would block whatever they want and not tell anybody.
The only bad thing I see is that now google has proven they can easily block certain some sites which means they may be liable for caching say.. child porn or terrorist pages.
The argument to be made is that it is a blocking of free speech and as such a form of censorship. Free speech is no more a reality if the government allows you to say whatever you want but then proceeds to stop anyone from hearing what you have to say. The thing about China forcing Google, and others, to censor search results is that they are not doing it because of a need for national security, at least not in any real sense. They are using it to block the voices of those they do not agree with. At the very least, in the United States we hold free speech to be a fundamental right, even if we do a somewhat lousy job of protecting it ourselves sometimes. The thing that many people in our country forget is that human rights do not stop at the borders of our own country. If we are going to say that those rights are inherent to man then they are inherent to everyone.
"Do no evil" is not "Be holier than though." Do no evil does not mean they can force their values upon other countries.
Their choices are to operate in China under China's rules, or to get out. They can't choose to operate in China under US rules. So which is better for their users? I think it's better, less evil, for google to run their Chinese access under Chinese rules, than to provide no access at all.
If it is your goal to make profits through a global Capitalist system, whether you do evil or not goes out the window?
What would happen to Google if they suddenly decided to withdraw from China?
I wonder if Microsoft and other companies would gain a significant competetive advantage just for being available to a large part of the world's population?
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
While other sites have their debates on the issue, I believe it will be ultimately up to the public to decide just how far a company can go in compromising their values. Either they won't care or they'll stop using Google altogether.
Are there any other search engines out there that are as good, and don't do this?
Thank you. Everyone these days is so biased against Microsoft and so biased for Google... some of it certainly has a good foundation, but some of it is really no better than children on a playground making fun of other children. Microsoft is capable of doing good. Google is capable of doing bad. Without BOTH companies, the world would be a vastly different place. So Google is censoring in China. So Google refuses to cooperate with the US government. It's not the end of the world. Got a problem with it? There's plenty of other search engines out there. So Microsoft steals other companies' good ideas and incorporates it in their software. So Microsoft has some ruthless Fucking Kill(TM) everyone business strategies. Got a problem with it? Buy a Mac or run Linux. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but just because you don't like some of what a company does does not make it entirely evil. Censoring in China doesn't make Google evil, and using drop-down boxes doesn't make Microsoft evil. They may not be good things to do, but it doesn't make them evil.
Morality and successful businesses rare share the same path. Don't get me wrong, I'm not being anti-business here. It's just that businesses willing to part with "morality" in the quest for wealth will in fact be stronger businesses (wealth wise) and since we often equate wealth with success, morality would therefore get in the way of "success".
In a more theological perspective it would be selling ones soul for money. (ie doing something you wouldn't normally do or want to do for something else that you want)
Google is coming to face the same choices as many corporations of the past. Hold onto your morality and be less competative in the marketplace.. or join the "survival of the fittest" mentality and keep your competative edge.
Remember the sources of this -- the mass media. They found a weakness with Google (real or perceived -- it does not matter). Google is a high-flying stock and very popular brand name (#1 in 2005). It is big news finding an attack (real or otherwise, serious or very minor).
The
"Did it occur to you that maybe they'll do more Good by being a western influence in China than by not being there at all? Filtering ALL of the Internet is impossible. Stuff will slip through, even if it's only a little, even if it's shut off as soon as authorities detect that it has. "
Actually, I bet Google is better at filtering than most other search engines, so they'll better enforce Chinese govt. policy than anyone else. It would be better if they stayed out of the market.
Vote for Pedro
"A lot of times, businesses have to scale back on corporate responsibility," said Rafael Gutierrez
It seems to me that "corporate responsibility" has a lot to do with "corporate ethics", in that they're both contradictions in terms. A corporation is a legal construction with the rights of a person but none of the morals. A corporation exists solely to make money for its stakeholders, be it publicly- or privately-held. It does not, and one might argue that it can not, hold any values other than "MONEY GOOD FIRE BAD". For a corporation to do anything other than try to make money is a disservice to investors.
In this age of Enron and Tyco, corporate book-cooking and insider trading, embezzlement and pension fund looting, as well as the things that DON'T get a ton of press coverage, I find it amazing that the phrase "corporate responsibility" is treated as anything other than a punchline.
Dare to Hope. Prepare to be Disappointed.
It never said anything about the "tempation to make *HUGE* sacrifices".
We really need a decentralized P2P search engine that would be hard for both evil government and evil companies to block.
Everyone should keep in mind that "evil" is a subjective open ended term. What is evil to one group is not evil to another.
Am I lying when I tell you that im telling the truth? Or am I telling the truth when I say that Im lying?
I completely disagree with the sentiment that Google is 'being evil' by agreeing to censor search results in accordance with Chinese law. Google's job is not to legislate or protest political issues. Their job is to provide search results to those who need them.
It seems to me that, without google, the largest population of human beings in the world would be missing out on some of the best parts of the internet. Granted, many of those parts will be censored, but we all know censorship isn't ever going to be 100% effective, anyway.
What China needs is information. The more information we can get piped into Chinese cultural consciousness, the sooner their society will be able to emerge from this dark cloud. The internet is exactly the tool to provide that information, and if google is able to deliver it better than anyone else, then I say more power to them. I think it's obvious that our government hasn't had much luck in changing the Chinese government by scolding them or leveraging political and economic sanctions. Having said that, it seems pretty obvious to me that we should consider a different approach. From my perspective, that's exactly what google is doing. There's an old saying:
You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
If Google would have held to their guns this incident would generated significant goodwill and there would have been a huge positive press coverage. It would have engendered curiosity by their chinese audience who will find increasingly creative ways to get around the great wall of China and may have ended up increasing their market share in the long run. But more importantly it would have been a defining moment for company and would have become legend.
How can you take this seriously when the author says something like this? Show evidence to support your claim, show numbers, show something other than "I don't think this is good". Shareholders would agree China is a must, and while Google had to make a sacrifice we can only speculate at this point how it will turn out. This is not ironic at all. Google's justification to this was they did not want to divulge company secrets. If they gave the government their hard earned data, where it could end up is unknown, possibly to their competitors. How can you say making a company give trade secrets to their rivals and entering a new market is ironic? There's a potential loss of profit from one and a gain from the other. This is a company.
... so OF COURSE they're gonna smear Google for their decision! Personally, I think it's a necessary evil for Google to filter search results in China. Censoring in China is the decision of the Chinese government, and Google is obligated to follow the laws accordingly. It's not unreasonable or "evil" at all.
Once again we see a PRIVATE company complying with a PUBLIC law. Google is a company, nothing more. If the legal government of China wants Google to behave in a certain way to its citizens, Google MUST comply of stop doing business with citizens of China. If the citizens of China want more freedom, THEY must demand it. If they cannot get their government to comply with their wishes, it is not Google's place to enforce those wishes. Look at it this way, if Google was a SPAM company and it was the US demanding that the spam stop, and Google said no, what you you think then?
Here will be an old abusing of God's patience and the king's English.
What if this contreversy wasn't over China, but a small country with a market of maybe 100,000 internet users. Do you think Google would do the same thing if they didn't benefit as much? Or, would they then take the moral high road, and say they won't bow to an oppressive regine?
If they would honestly make this compromise for a small country where they wouldn't stand to benefit much, or at all, then maybe I'd give them the benefit of the doubt on the China issue. However, if this issue first arose over say, North Korea, I'd bet google wouldn't be so eager to drop their moral standards.
... "Choosing the lesser of two evils"? Censorship sucks, but without compliance with Chinese law, the Chinese people don't get Google. Which is worse? Sometimes you can't win at everything.
China - for insisting, at the barrel of a gun (to paraphrase Mao), that one way or another their subjects will NOT have access to certain material.
Americans, in objecting to Google's move, are not forcing their views
Tragic how often someone claims "well, that culture just chooses to be different than what you want to force on them" without realizing that the difference is precisely because their government IS forcing views on them, and the people's choice is compliance or death.
Can we get a "-1 Wrong" moderation option?
So China doesnt have free speech. So what ? Why do you always have to enforce your sense of freedom on everything. Try living in an environment with a diverse population with different opinion on what freedom, speech and religion means. Try living in a country with more class than rich, suburbanites, ghettos and rednecks.
It is this narrow vision that make you opinionate about 640K limits in life !
Know that your freedom is also under a gun. Usually you see only the butt end of it but it can quickly turn around thanks to itchy finger holding the trigger.
The censorship completely changes history.
Here's the thing.... people like you bought it, hook, line, and sinker. That's the worst part of it, from my standpoint. How gullible can you guys be? I didn't believe their silly "do not evil" thing for a second because it was just that... silly. Corporations simply don't say things like that.
I happen to own a very tiny corporation, and we really don't do evil, but we're not going to beat our proverbial chest about it. If our customers realize it, then great. If they don't, then I still don't care, because I'm doing it because I want to.
Any large company that says something like this clearly has an agenda.
But then, why would I think that geeks would know any better.... they all fell for the DOJ MS case, and bought that hook, line, and sinker, too, even though most of you know that the DOJ is horribly corrupt.
I don't respond to AC's.
I don't think many people realise how much trust and faith we put into our regular, favourite search engine. To give us unbiased, uncensored and trustworthy results to our queries.
The Chinese don't want their leaders; they just have no choice right now. The previous freedom campaigners were killed by tanks, remember? Google has badly let them down.
I won't be using google anymore. This was a bad, stupid decision. Shame on you, Google.
- When a CNET reporter used Google's own search to write about CEO Eric Schmidt, Google banned CNET for a year.
- A Google employee was handled brusquely and terminated after blogging about his experiences.
- Many meta search engines that provide a valuable service by combining search results have been banned from using Google by its lawyers.
The list goes on...
Is it less evil to not provide Google to the people of China?
There are and have been places and times where genocide and slavery were culturally acceptable or even desirable. They're not acceptable in the U.S. today. Ogmo tells us that if we're in the U.S., we shouldn't be allowed to judge the "values" of anywhere that isn't the U.S.. Therefore genocide and slavery were not evil, but right, in those places and times with different "values".
Or, another option: Ogmo is simply wrong, using some kind of crazy misguided excessive notion of cultural respect to support a murderous and repressive fascist regime in China; and the moderator who marked calivar's post "flamebait" helped him.
Google always maintains it will do no evil, and yet its action is gradually becoming debatable.
Bill Gates never says he will do no evil, and yet his charity works are clocking to few billion dollars.
"Take care not to perform righteous deeds in order that people may see them; otherwise, you will have no recompense from your heavenly Father. When you give alms, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets to win the praise of others. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right is doing, so that your almsgiving may be secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you." -- Jesus in the Gospel according to Matthew
Until the Chinese pull their head out of their collective ass and get rid of ridculous laws that prohibit free speach than I say that Google is still abiding by their mantra to "do no evil".
Environmentally sensitive execs ruining the ozone with personal jumbo jets is hypocritical. Turning over web usage data to the police without a warrant is bad. Halting the free flow of information on behalf of a totalitarian regime is evil. Does it occur to anyone that the reason you have a rule to do no evil is because you normal impulse is to do evil?
Google is a glorified direct marketing firm. No more no less. Direct marketing firms all turn to the dark side eventually.
"It is easier to ask for forgiveness then permission."
Before Google inked this deal with China, the company was not able to deliver any sort of reliable access to Chinese internet users. The country had 0 (Zero) Google Action.
Now, the country basically has 90% Google Action and the remaining 10% is just a flick of a switch away from getting turned on, a move Google could theoretically make at any time.
I don't see how providing 90% Google (with 100% Google not far behind) is bad when the alternative is 0% Google.
I know you're trolling, but I'll bite:
I find great irony in the fact that you are berating those who are mad at Google for giving in to the whims of a leftist, purportedly Communist/Socialist government. I find it even more amusing that you are calling them "hippies". In the vernacular of conservative insult-flinging, doesn't "hippie" basically translate to "left-winger"? Isn't China supposedly the ultimate example of "left-wing" (even though, in reality, it's closer to Fascism than actual Communism-- but let's ignore that for a moment)?
In short, back under your bridge, troll.
By the way, I was once called "Hippie" for holding up an anti-Bush sign (it read "PRE-EMPTIVE WAR *ISN'T* CONSERVATIVE. KERRY/EDWARDS 2004"). I had short hair and was wearing casual business attire.
With spending like this, exactly what are "conservatives" conserving?
Won't get into the debate about good vs evil.
In God we trust, the rest of us pay cash.
What I am interested in, is that by censoring the content, China's administration will be revealing all the issues it is sensative to.
Although some are obvious, there may be other issues we do not know about yet.
Before we go shooting down this decision, let's see what China wants to hide.
No doubt, someone here is smart enough to scrape google for that list, in case they don't publicly reveal it.
Further, I'd like to know if Google will hand over information to help prosecute those with blocked content.
Every time people have access to more information, even though it might be censored, its always good in the end. And once people get more used to access to ready information, they will eventually demand access to all information. Google even censored, will have a huge positive social impact in China.
And last, but not least. Even though I live for half of my life in a totalitarian regime, I have never met with so much propaganda, misinformation and people willing to gobble it up and eat the shit from the hand of their government, until I moved to United States. The difference is staggering. I actually feel the people in United States are more controlled, watched and led by hand by their government than the people of my country were during a communist totalitarian regime. So in the end from my point of view, the only hypocrite here are you, Sir.
If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
they say it's a non-issue in China.
Of course it's a non-issue in China: in China, you do what the Chinese government tells you to do & live with, or you don't suck air long enough to say it's an issue.
Enjoy your 1st Amendment. Chinese don't have one.
Can we get a "-1 Wrong" moderation option?
I'm sure Justin Jardine will be taking down the Google Search Bar from the front page of his website any day now. He's probably busy taking care of customers though, because he just managed to spam Slashdot with a link to his ATV online store.
"It's Dot Com!"
But what will that accomplish?
Staying true to their motto "Don't be evil. But I guess money is more important than principles.
What Google says on their Website is different than "do no evil":
g le.html
"You can make money without doing evil"
Just not as much.
http://otherclub.blogspot.com/2006/01/comrade-goo
well they kinda had 2 choices ....
1. change
2. dont chang
the 2 choices had the result of them being able to still be used or be blocked. come on though any one who can type in a proxy can bypass it.
(yes i know i suck at spelling fell free to correct my grammar and/or spellin i dont care, im still not going to change
Get over it hippies.
I think you're missing the point. It's obvious that Google is a public corporation, and that they have a fiduciary duty to their shareholders. However, item 6 in their statement of corporate philosphy is "You can make money without doing evil." That statement in essence says that Google holds itself to a certain standard of behavior. It is part of the way they market themselves to the world. It is a part of their reputation, a part of why so many people prefer Google over other companies, in the way that some people prefer Fair Trade Coffee to coffee produced through other means.
Given that Google has branded itself in that fashion, it is only reasonable to expect people to question whether their actions in China constitute "evil" behavior or not. Personally I think the issue is not black and white, and that Google made the best decision it could under the circumstances. However, I can see why many people are pissed off at Google for doing business with the Chinese government in this fashion. I can even imagine that many of those angry people have never worn a tie-dyed shirt or listened to the Grateful Dead.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
It's fine if Google's search results came back with a bold faced red label saying, THIS ENTRY IS CENSORED BY THIS REGION'S GOVERNMENT. It is one thing to restrict the articles from showing by replacing them with 'CENSORED' labels, it's quite another to never know they were there to begin with! If Google filters the results in a way that there is never a mention of the censored results, no disclaimer, then this is a bad, nasty, evil thing to do. It's best that the service is not offered at all rather than present misinformation by silently removing opposing opinion. A service becomes great if you can trust it, if it start lying to you then trust certainly should fall like a rock and alternative services sought and developed .
With the FBI case, a goverment was asking (demanding) that Google hand over search logs which would seriously comprimise the privacy, and perhaps the security, of a large number of citizens. Google said "naff off" - and kudos to them. I wish Yahoo and MS had the balls to do the same (but I wouldn't expect it)
With China, a goverment is requiring that Google not allow it's citizens access to certain data. Google have agreed. I think it's a shame but I can understand Google following national laws - especially when it has no privacy or survaliance result. I suspect the alternative would be that Google would be blocked from the Chinese national firewalls. In either case the citizens are prevented from accessing the search results. With this result the citizens do not have reduced access (they'd be blockedone way or another) but google retains a presence
Now - if Google were also handing over the logs of failed search requests then it would be a double standard and hypocrisy, and definitly "doing evil". As it stands I think the two issues are quite seperate. I also think they've come to a reasonably good conclusion when faced with very difficult moral questions
Your current business attire in no way shape or form means that you never once participated in the free love drug using culture of the 1960s-1970s. A hippie is a hippie until death.
To clarify, I called you a hippie because it is usually the hippie set that gets in the way of commerce....well for any reason. The free market will eventually bring the tyrants in China down. Just trust in globalization and be patient.
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
Only in America do they even pretend to guarantee free speech.
This censorship is basically of people who are advocating violent revolution.
This is debatably evil...
To all of the people stating Google isn't being evil because "they won't be able to filter everything" and "some access to Google is better than none" for the Chinese people, let's compare to an example back home.
:(
So the president saying, "some illegal spying is better than none (which means the terrorists have won)" and "we promise we're not spying on everyone, just the terrorists" sounds reasonable to you?
It's too bad Canada just made a conservative shift, the countries to which I'm planning to flee is getting shorter!!
This type of commentary is asinine. Who in their right mind expects Google to take on the Chinese government? And in what name? Freedom? These very same people screamed bloody murder when the US entered Iraq under the same cause.
Get over it people. Google is not going to alienate a nation of 1+ billion potential customers in the name of free speech. Just wait until China decides to de-link its currency from the dollar and strikes out on their own. You'll see a hell of a lot of companies (and governments!) going back on their word to please the powerhouse that is China.
if(!toilet_paper) roll.replace(new roll);
I am no longer using Google because of their support for censorship in China.
I am currently a Safari user, but because I can't remove the google search widget in Safari, I am switching to Firefox. I am planning to switch to another search engine. (Perhaps altavista.)
I'm thinking of organizing a boycott Google campaign.
Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
This response is not limited to this example, but so many cases that are similiar to this.
The close-minded ignorance is overwhelming. Some people need to step out of their country for once and try to get a clue at how diverse and complicated the world is. Maybe put a couple of hours into trying to understand how culture, history, and the difference in situation all adds up how some other people do things differently. And stop judging diversity, because most of you really have no basis to do so; and you end up with the most red-neck theories ever.
I could never agree to the "terms and conditions" of living in China; I don't agree with their human rights. That is why I choose not to don't live in China. But I don't pretend that I can understand the situation by reading an opinion piece on "Slashdot" and substituting the rest of the unknowns by my own values experiences and thinking that is valid enough to come up with end Judgement.
And... How is Google doing any harm by bringing their services to China COMPARED to not having a presence at alL?
I highly disagree with that.. We're aware what Google's vision/motto is.. And thanks to "AMERICA" they're able to fulfill that vision.. Living in a free country, with a free market, and a capitalistic system is what has given Google the ability to offer what they do.. so, obviously, their vision is altered when they choose to involve themselves with a country like China, which is the exact opposite and far as what business are allowed to do.. it doesn't make them sellouts..
*plays the Apogee theme song music*
The boys at Google already have more money than they know what to do with. I dunno if they could spend all they have before they die. I'm not going to be a corporate apologist, but given Google's track record, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on this. Sometimes you *do* have to commit little evils to propagate greater goods. Is it beyond comprehension that the money Google makes in China will go for causes and projects that, in the end, create a net good?
Just imagine, a lesser company might have taken the opportunity to jump on the bandwagon and gratuitously smear the reputaton of it's leading rival.
Don't let THEM immanentize the Eschaton!
Yeah, that's right. "Do no evil" has gotta be the Google motto for US-only customers. I'll let you decide what their motto is for China. It goes to show how what's good and true can slowly become not so anymore, and what should be worldwide corporate values are not so worldwide when it comes to the bottom line. Also, I say consider this - and this is for all you guys out there who said Google is and will not be like all the others - a company wants to be popular. In the States, it happens to be it's popular to "Do no evil" to the customer, and it's taken hundreds of years of capitalist business to for this to become to big fad for corporate America who's watching Google single-handedly controlling the Internet search industry. But in China, it's not yet a popular idea for businesses to do no harm to their customers, so Google is not bothering with what could be costly "fad" over there.
Censorship is just an "idea" that can be used as a tool, like a hammer or pistol. Now, nobody really seems very concerned about the threat of people harming others with a hammer. More people give a shit about pistols, though.
... how can I change anything like a society if I don't get involved with it?
.... (Hint: We've tried that. Again?)
..
Here in America we have been raised to believe that censorship is one of the tools man can't use effectively in a progressive society.
I don't like censorship either, but tell me this
Blow it up?
And how does a business get involved with a society? They do business with it!
It's not like there Ford, playing both sides of a war by building tanks and shit for everyone.
There a corporation with goals, such as improving communication (the sharing of information) between peoples who desire it. Or, rather
"Google's mission is to organize the world's information and make it universally accessible and useful." -Opening of there MS
God it's like the articles themselves thesedays are the flamebait.
Here's my thing.
Would Google do this for Saudi Arabia?
How about Indonesia?
Russia?
How about in France? (Do we know the answer to this already?)
Great Britain?
Would the do it in the U.S.?
If you can answer the question, "Why China?" you can probably answer the question, "Money or Morality?"
Google's job is not to legislate or protest political issues. Their job is to provide search results to those who need them.
Isn't it kind of ironic how Google is fighting the governments access to search records in the U.S., but in China they have no problems with filtering search results?
Quote from chinese bloggers by the BBC (in the context of the real problem being lack of free speech):
So presumably, to be consistent with policy, Google will start enforcing blocking emails with politically objectionable content between Chinese citizens when the government asks? Will this be ok too, with those who say "partial information is better than none"?
Making almost everything accessible in as open a way as possible under the circumstances is the best way to make China more free. Most Chinese are aware their government is corrupt, that they have serious envionmental issues to work through, and that Falun Gong is a harmless cult.
This is my Cuba Theory - if instead of the stupid policy we have now the US opened up our borders to Cuba, allowed free trade and free communication even within the limitations of Castro's murderous regime, Cuba would be a free and prosperous democracy in months, not years, and Castro would live out his days happily doddering away in retirement.
The same IS WORKING NOW from China. Because we opened our doors, China is a better and freer place every day.
Of course, we are utterly dependent on Chinas' good will, and soom half of America will be scrubbing toilets for Red Army officers, but hey that's progress.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
It appears to be doing a darn good job on some keywords:
So called "neutral" search results on non-chinese searches for a persecuted religious group known as Falun Gong:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=falun+gong
Properly filtered results unmasking the Falun Gong terrorists for what they are:
http://www.google.cn/search?hl=zh-CN&q=falun+gong
Rock on!
This is getting silly and fast. Every week some lame article stating that Google is evil gets posted on Slashdot. When you compare Google to any other company they still come out of those comparisons untouched so far. Its a wild goose chase for any possible sign of Google not keeping the standard of Gandhi, Mother Theresa or some saint. Google is a coorporation and should be compared to other corporations, say Microsoft. In comparison with Microsoft Google is a beacon of light. Perhaps thats whats bugging so many, compare them and you have nothing to complain about. Should Google just lie down, take it like a good prisoners bitch up the shute and let Microsoft take the whole Chineese market?
Google must compete on a level playing field with Microsoft and until Microsoft draws out of China or refuse to censor Google cant do it either. That would be to give the biggest market in the world away to their fiercest, biggest baddest competitor.
Until Microsoft, Yahoo and other american companies agrees to bail out of China this is just a lame attempt to paint a pretty decent company as evil.
HTTP/1.1 400
America is such a great example of freedom because the NSA can spy on the citizens without congressional oversight. All governments do evil things. The US is no different. If our government can spy on its citizens without congressional oversight, I don't think we have a f-ing leg to stand on. How about we fix our own god damn government before we start criticizing other countries. How long did it take for the US to allow women and blacks to vote? How long did the US supress native americans? US is a country. It's no better and no worse. For all those hypocritical assholes claiming the US is better, shut up and stop embarrasing our nation.
We can put up pages about d3m0c@cy and hum@n r16hts.
The Chinese government can't censor it if they don't know how we're spelling it.
This sig, aah-ah, is comin' like a ghost-sig...
My son, money is never too much. Your expenses go higher as you become bigger. There is no end to it. So don't worry that they cannot spend all their money.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Hold up to public scrutiny what China wants to hide.
Publish the blocked list.
While this doesn't solve the problem of Google pandering to the Chinese regime, it can demonstrate to the rest of the world exactly what China is afraid will unbalance it's leaderships power. Raising the visibility of banned authors and topics will help undermine their attempt to limit knowledge.
When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras
For all those people who claim that Google has suddenly gone over to the dark side.. check the labels on your shirts. Check who made your kid's toy. Your new appliance. China?
The truth of the matter is that everyone deals with people or organizations that may not hold the same ideals as they do. Witness the fact that the U.S. government, which has stated it wants democracy everywhere, deals with countries such as Saudi Arabia that do not have a democratic system.
I submit to you that the more interaction there is with a non-democratic state, the more likely democracy will flow to the non-democratic state. As someone else said, information is the key. Even with Google's self-imposed censorship, things will get through and it can only be good.
SCO, Microsoft, P2P, what's your hot button?
From what I understand, the Chinese people don't particularly mind having everything sensored. Sure, there are some that break the laws anyway and want the same information you and I have access to but they're few and far between, especially considering what's likely to happen to them if they're caught.
Google won't make the world a better place either way. If and when the people of China are ready for an open internet, they'll get it. Until then, those that want to do business in China should respect its rules, just as those that wish to do business in the US should do the same.
At least as far as their "do no evil" is concerned.
/. nerds are far better positioned for it (I'm too lazy).
First, of course, is China. As TFA opines (and I agree), a little information is worse than none. Evil.
Second, they're amassing vast quantities of data about your searches, email, and anything else. Even more evil.
Third, their software offerings are worse than pathtic. I downloaded their "Google pack" a couple of weeks ago; it's crap. All of it. EMBARRASSING crap. Examples from the "Google Pack":
Their "Google Earth" won't fit my screen; my monitor and vid card disagree on how to display anything bigger than 800x600, and I'm not buying a new monitor just for Google Earth. Shoddy.
Picassa "organizes" by date only, even when you tell it not to. Worthless.
The Google Screen Saver completely replicates the phooto slide show that comes with windows, with one glaring difference: "Google" stays on your screen, in the same place, all the time. Er, what, again, is a screen saver for?
I think the boys who created Google took their billions and left Google to its own devices. Hell, even the search results I've been getting lately aren't very good. For example, google holy-bible.us for "jesus." You would expect Jesus to be in the bible, right?
Not according to Google.
There is a hell of an opportunity here, and I don't think a big multinational can do it. One of you
I've been harping on this, so perhaps "harper" actually is (almost) an MRC?
"No man is so hopelessly enslaved as the one who believes, falsely, that he is free." - Goethe
From Result #1:: google.cn search for "Falun Gong"
Xinhua Commentary Calls for Long-term Fight Against Falun Gong Cult.
1) Hire someone.
2) Get them to find/make a tiny censorship loophole.
3) Publicize it, and set the guy to fixing it.
4) Take an amazingly long time to fix it, like Microsoft levels.
5) "fire" the guy, giving him $20,000 severance and a glowing recommendation in the process.
Okay, you have two choices to make as a corporation:
1.) I can sensor some of my product in a country.
2.) I can not have my product in the country.
Tell me, under the guiding idea of "Do No Evil" or rather "Don't Be Evil," which is not evil?
With option 1, I have some ability to do good.
Under option 2, I have no ability to do good.
Awk! Pieces of eight. Pieces of eight. Pieces of seven... ERROR: General Protection Fault. [Paroty Error.]
When the Chinese Google appeared, I went over there to see if my own website would appear or if it was censored. I did a search for 'Austin Skate Notes'. It showed up as the first result. But the second result is a link to a photo album deeply nested in my site that contains photos I shot at a George Bush Protest in Austin. I was kind of surprised because it's not linked to from other sites that I know of and I have other content on my site that talks about the new Shanghai skatepark and Chinese-made skate decks.
When you search 'Austin Skate Notes' on the American Google, the Bush protest does not appear on the first page of results. It's interesting to me that the Chinese Google thinks visitors would be more interested in the protest photos than American Google users.
Seth
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
Google has been censoring results for surfers with IPs in Chinese address space for years now; this is just more of the same, except it's actually been translated into Chinese.
I can understand the media latching on to this, but Slashdot? Oh, wait. I forgot; this is Slashdot.
You are looking at it from a flawed perspective. "If I don't do it, somebody else will" is a pragmatic argument, not a moral argument. You're still doing evil.
I was starting to think the world has gone insane until I read your comment. Absolutely amazing the opinions that are being modded up. Makes it very apparent that the average Slashdot user is enamored with Google and thinks just about anything they do is just dandy.
I'm a big tall mofo.
Oh please, every country has skeletons in the closet. Sure, China killed all those people protesting. The US sent thousands of people off to Iraq to die based on a lie, then tried to cover it up. If you're about to say something about my freedom to write this very comment in comparison to speech privilages in China, you would be correct. But think about this: why is the US government so eager to wiretap us without cause? Hell, the US government kept tabs on civil rights leaders as recently as 30, 40 years ago. What would be done with those civil rights leaders if they existed today? And I haven't even begun on the War On Drugs. I'm pretty sure citizens of other countries would find it ridiculous that our police kill and imprison people for life based on the possession of mind altering drugs. Vietnam, Agent Orange, citizen massacres. Atomic bombing Japan. I can go on and on.
I may be slightly off topic, but lets try to keep an open mind here.
We rush into characterizing the Chinese goverment as evil and everybody who does business with them evil doers.
The main argument is based on the obvious supression of the freedom of speech and access to information.
DISCLAIMER: The stuff below do not reflect my opinion but I am just stating some questions. Personally I do not have a definitive answer to them.
What if China does not really have any real policy alternatives? They are an overpopulated country that had to find a way to transit from a closed economy that resulted to absolute poverty and misery to becoming the largest trader in the world. At the same time, this transition had to occur smoothly, without the symptoms of total collapse observed in Eastern Europe. What if Tien-an-men and subsequent policies had to really take place in order to prevent total chaos in the country?
Eastern European societies transitted to "democracy" but at a very high cost to their population because they were not really ready for capitalism and freedom. On the other hand, China has only been progressing at impressive rates and millions of people escape poverty as China is becoming one of the most powerful nations in the World. On the other hand, the Soviet Union collapsed and Russia was driven to many years of depression, while nobody can say for sure that the current Putin's state is democratic. Thinks are even deemer for some of the ex Soviet republic, but at least they gained their national independence (whatever this means to them).
Perhaps many people would have trouble choosing between dreamers like Michail Gorbatchev and pragmatists like Hu Jintao. Perhaps some people would prefer their daughters and sons being forced into becoming law abiding, highly educated citizens though strict (perhaps tyranic) legislation, rather than becoming the pimps and prostitudes of Europe in a vain pursuit for "blue jeans and coca cola".
Is it possible that in politics the end really justify the means?
You're absolutely right that the US has had its share of corruption and anti-democratic elements.
But by and large, the US system of government has, through the input of its citizenry, been self-correcting and has eliminated many of these problems.
Simply because the U.S. isn't mathematically perfect as a democracy or a society doesn't invalidate criticism of nations we believe to be anti-democratic, nor does it mean that the U.S. is inherently antidemocratic.
I really wanted to suggest something in hopes that some decision maker at Google, MSN, or Yahoo may consider it if they have not already. Google and the other search engines have the infrastructure and capability to create, setup, and maintain massive amounts of proxy servers. If they really wanted to make a significant contribution to the goal of providing free and uncensored information to Chinese citizens, they could do it. Simply create proxy servers accessible by those in China that could then relay http traffic anonymously. Shit, throw a couple million at it and make it a freakin huge proxy network that rotates through different IP ranges every couple weeks so that Chinese government agencies can't keep up with them.
That is, if they really wanted to not be evil.
If they wanted to be creative with it, they could take one of their services, Google Talk for example, and provide a feature in the client that would allow one to browse to a site via their proxy servers. One idea would be to place an input field in a panel used to enter in a friends user name that you would like to connect to, but if you inputted a url, it would still relay the request to their proxy servers. Of course that would be in violation of the clients EULA, but then they could just leave the capability their and never get around to "patching" it.
Its just an idea, but I wish that they used their incredibly gifted employees to do something really great.
What if Google is doing this for the purpose of doing the greatest good of all? How about this scenario: Google plays along w/Chinese gov't, censors results and becomes super-popular in China, just as it has become everywhere else. Several years later, after the Chinese population have become as completely addicted and dependent upon Google like everyone else in the world, Google tells the Chinese goverment they will not cooperate in their censorship any longer. What is the Chinese government going to do? Suddenly block Google, making their entire citizenry painfully aware of what they're doing? I dunno- I, and most of the people I know, have gotten REALLY used to having Google around. If the US government were to suddenly tell us they would be blocking it, I could imagine people deciding that maybe a revolution was nigh...
I believe that spyware ads are one of the biggest money makers for Google. Ever do a search for something like "MS Spyware"? You'll see ads for things like "Microsoft antispyware", that really goes to spywarecleaner.com, or some other Adware ridden programs. All my friends who got adware got it off links on Google.
When is Google going to step up and BAN spyware ads?
-- these are only opinions and they might not be mine.
When did cooperating with goverment orders become "evil?"
GoogleChina What is next? GoogleMormon, GoogleRepublican, GoogleScientologist.... note:I have nothing against these beliefs.
I cant believe with all of the seemingly intelligent minds here that people still seem to think that the Western way is the 'right' way. Dont get me wrong, I do not approve of censorship in any way shape or form, but that is entirely based on my values being brought up in a Western society. This is just another example of people trying to impose their beliefs on another society because we think we know better. I great example of this could be seen in the way the Chinese culture goes to the bathroom. We think its right that people should wipe with toilet paper but when you look at it from their perspective its absolutely disgusting. Using paper to smear it all around and make even a bigger mess just doesnt make sense to them and when you think about it really isnt the most efficient way to clean yourself.
You just cant try to impose Western beliefs on a population that has never really known anything different than what they are currently living under....can anyone say Vietnam?
When looking at China, you have to realize that this country has been run this way for longer than most people reading this have been alive. You cant just turn the communism switch off and expect everything to be hunky dory. People should view Google stepping into China as quite possibly one of the most important things that could happen if the people of China are expected to one day change the way their country is governed. I think we are already seeing a step in this direction with the fall of the red curtain and the opening up of China's economy to the rest of the world. The seed for change has been planted.
Information is power and right now the Chinese people have a lack of information. So would anyone please care to tell me who better to provide them with this information than Google?? I mean their slogan is "Don't be evil" (and they by far have the best utilities to provide the people of China with the information that they are sorely lacking) so what makes you think that they are going to all of a sudden start being evil? They cant do a damn thing to help the people of China if they dont get in there somehow.
But I dont understand if so many people have such a high opinion of Google then why do you think that they are going to walk into China and turn into Microsoft? And that is another thing...would China really be better off with ONLY influences from American corporations such as Microsoft and Yahoo, corporations that are definitely only their for monetary gain...I think not. This is the start of change and one day all you people bashing Google for their decision will be praising them as a corporation that stepped into China and instead of just exploiting the new marketplace actually tried to do something for its people. ;)
And you just KNOW that Google's filtering wont catch everything...by mistake of course
Of course, those who think Google should hand over tons of identifying information to the government will point to this and say, you obey the Chinese government's wishes, but you appeal a U.S. subpoena, and the only answer is, yes. We have a system where individual rights matter, and a company, or an individual, can appeal to the courts for relief from what is an intrusive request. Google is undoubtedly left in China with the choice of leaving China or censoring their searches. They have made their choice out of these two options, at the mercy of a dictatorial government. Each choice is fraught with risk and compromise. You can attempt to do no evil, but actually doing no evil is impossible. That's called the Human Condition. They should keep their slogan as a reminder of their fundamental mission -- but they're not going to keep it perfectly. I think, for instance, I'm pretty truthful, but I've definitely told some lies. "Tell No Lies" is a good motto, because it's a great goal.
... unless you bribe someone.
Google is abiding by Chinese law and edicts. Sure maybe it isn't the kind of laws which you like, but do you live there? You scream bloody murder for MS to get their due, and then they now are abiding by the EU's recent ruling against them. Perhaps Google doesn't want to be hauled into a Chinese court?
I see many comments on this site over the past few months criticizing everything from Bush (especially people from countries other than the USA where their understanding may be from a media outlet with a slanted agenda, to now Google.
Google isn't in business to please anyone, it's in business to make money, and by abiding with the Chinese government, it may be making a play to make more there.
The Chinese government is already blocking these web sites. Google is now blocking the meta data of these web sites. Why is it necessary? They are being strongarmed by the government. Block access to the metadata and deny that these websites even exist. If you do not we will instead deny you access to millions of potential searchers. Google has taken the top-down view that hey, if we don't pretend that some websites don't exist, we can't even tell these searchers that /any/ websites exist.
/can/ make a right.
But wait a second - Google Corporate says that Google's mission is to "organize the world's information and make it universally accessible and useful."
Google has organized this set of information. However, they are not making it universally accessible because they are pretending some of it does not exist. The layman's reading of Google's mission, which is the intended reading, leads to the thought that Google is violating it's core ethos. That Google is willing to accept two wrong's
Of the comparison filtered queries Philipp showed us, the one that strikes me as most awful is "human rights." When you pretend that some human rights don't exist, you can count on the fact that you have done something evil.
python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
You have to follow the laws in the country in which you operate. You could maybe try to get them changed, but breaking them will only get Google shut down.
Now that Google is a publicly traded company (on the stock market) Google's values are subject to the board's behavior. The board doesn't exist to uphold values. The board exists to make shareholders happy. To make shareholders happy, they have to expand. Thus, values get compromised along the way. The values remain posted as a PR tool. You'll start to see Google become the next Microsoft over the next several years. I actually applied for a job at Google, and the job was re-posted as a "contract" position through a "temporary" placement agency. Once a company goes corporate and contract, the values that they uphold become questionable. I love Google, but I see them going down the wrong path.
Goggle is bringing down the system FROM THE INSIDE. They totally screwing the Man this way!
Same as the hippies who couldnt rock on and on forever,instead they had to becoem teachers and reporters to get elected, so they could ruin this fashist country SLOWLY..... and get rich doing it!
Xoogler's says CmdrTaco has no idea WTF he's talking about.
What's a surprise.
Google could do one of two things: not be in China or comply with the Chinese government's requirements. Sounds like a no-brainer to me!
Google made the right decision. But go ahead and cue those retarded "Google jumped the shark!" comments anyway. They're always fun.
What is humor if not pain tempered by time?
When people criticize the U.S. government, stupid right-wingers love to rant about how much better the U.S. is than North Korea.
When people criticize the Chinese government, stupid left-wingers love to rant about how much better China is than America.
Both of these things are just distraction tactics.
Why all this random focus on America? This discussion isn't about America, it's about China. Whining about how evil you think America is doesn't have any bearing whatsoever on how evil the government of China is. America could sink into the ocean tomorrow and the government of China would still be repressive and evil.
'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing' (or words to that effect) A study of a Web quotation
Modern copyright is theft of culture from everyone and it retards the progress of the useful arts and sciences.
"There is no original. The quote is bogus, and Burke never said it. It is a pseudo-quote, and corresponds to real quotes in the same way that urban legends about the ghost hitch-hiker vanishing in the back of the car and alligators in the sewers correspond to true news stories."
Modern copyright is theft of culture from everyone and it retards the progress of the useful arts and sciences.
From a western perspective, false and biased information is as dangerous (if not more so) than a total lack of information. For instance, I find people without televisions and who ignore news altogether to be generally have more well-founded opinions and to be more open-minded than people who watch FOXNews religeously. The current administration and their supporters are an example of the product of biased, incensant ranting in the mainstream, right-wing media.
If google had simply quietly complied with China's requirements and selectively filtered the results for Chinese IP addresses, they would indeed have been a participant in China's censorship. However, putting up a warning and making a huge fuss in public about it, going out of their way to highlight where the censorship occurs, makes it a completely different ballgame. The results are yet to be seen, but it looks far more subversive than simply letting the Chinese government censor them entirely.
So what happens if a country has laws that are unjust or violate basic human rights? If a country has a law that says you can't hire people of a certain race, should Google just go ahead with that law and consider it to be a cost of doing business?
Google states that "while removing search results is inconsistent with Google's mission, providing no information (or a heavily degraded user experience that amounts to no information) is more inconsistent with our mission." Assuming that Google's only alternative was to refuse to censor their results, and hence be completely filtered by the Great Firewall, I would argue that that option would have been more consistent with their mission than their chosen path.
/. in a comment on one of the other articles about Google's recent decision that one problem that international businesses, particularly media, face in dealing with China is that they all deal individually with the Chinese government, and hence have little to no leverage. The Chinese government needs multinationals right now as much as, or more than, multinationals need China, but China needs them in aggregate rather than individually, so can take a divide-and-conquer approach at regulating them. What is needed is an industry organization, formal or informal, dedicated to upholding freedom of the press, to which all media companies operating in China can belong, a support network that mutually resists the pressure by the Chinese government on any one company to censor information. Google refusing to censor its results could have been a step in that direction, and if any company has the clout to the lead the formation of such an organization, it's Google.
The absence of the world's largest, most popular search engine inside the Chinese firewall would have been as glaringly obvious as a pink elephant. The Chinese people aren't idiots, they know their government censors information, and they would know why Google had suddenly been blocked by the firewall. Word would get out, through the grapevine and other unofficial channels, and it might even constitute an embarrassing loss of face for the Communist party. Of course, the Chinese would much prefer that Baidu, Sino, or one of their own home-grown search engines be the #1 search engine, but they would still know that the only truly reliable search engine, the one that refuses to censor their information, was Google, and had been blocked by their government. Unlike Americans, the Chinese have long memories, and such an association would pay off in PR and face for Google in the long term.
Google on the other hand might take a stock price hit, but no investor could say they were't warned that Google might make decisions based on long-term considerations rather than short term stock-price-propping, or that Google's corporate values might sometimes conflict with the best interests of their stock price. However, such a move would certainly solidify the image of Google as a singular organization with the most honest and accurate search results worldwide, truly dedicated to its mission of organizing all the world's information.
Furthermore, Google's refusal to cooperate with the Chinese Government might have opened the door for other search engines, media, and businesses to follow suit, and emboldened the Chinese people and businesses to demand more unfettered access to information and less government interference. Someone mentioned on
So this appears to be an unfortunately wasted opportunity, for Google to make a strong political statement based on its values, that might have hurt it in the short term but most likely have paid off in PR and face in the long-term.
Google, we expected better.
Flying is easy, just throw yourself at the ground and miss. -Douglas Adams
Just curious as to how it is/was blatant flamebait. I didn't get into the specifics of civil disobedience or the numerous philosophers and statesmen who have held the particular position that I mentioned, and somehow that makes it flamebait? *color me confused*
Wow. That's scary.
Google wants to do business in china.. They have to follow chinese law.
/rant
Why is this so hard to understand?
And to say oh china this o china that.. How about the rediculious safety restrictions are put on import cars.. Then we can go back to those countries and say why are you doing business with those Paranoid freaks.
Would congress rather google deny the request? ok if they do who is going to china to free all of these "political prisoners". Grrr..
Don't be ridiculous. Google is not going to 'go out of business' if they stayed out of the Chinese market entirely. Its a pittance. Sure they may be doing some strategic triangulation but that makes the charge even more damning. The article states that search engine revenue in China is really low overall at the moment. Google is not doing this for any reason but potential future money.
As to your point that 'Google could be so foolish as to change the Chinese government' - pragmatically speaking you are right. Pragmatically speaking, you are also an asshole. You do what you can. Don't give me this bullshit about 'ooh maybe their values are different'; they publically decapitate people in Saudi Arabia and I don't give them a pass for their values, either.
It is better to leave China with no Google whatsoever, because 1) they know how to find real information if they want it right now, and 2) strategic holes regarding Taiwan and other issues of Chinese import in Google's database adds legitimacy to Chinese historical claims and antagonizes another would-be nation at the same time. Google taking a stand would have also added pressure to MSN, AOL and other heavy hitters.
My point is, if you are 'pragmatic' and capitulate to pure greed all the time while throwing your arms in the air, you are no better than any other psychopathic corporation. Google made a conscious and public decision to not act that way, and it appears they have changed their minds.
If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
One could claim that doing business in China in the way Google decided to do it was not a smart business move, but that is an entirely different story.
What mystical values are you talking about ?
Look people, it's a publicly traded company.
It's in a business to make money.
It doesn't matter if it was set up and founded by the Hippy God himself.
It's not run by the hippy god anymore.
Don't tell me you fell for their grass-roots feel-good "we are the world - we only do good" marketing, that paints them as the good guys?
They're only "good" guys as long as long as it makes money.
Just like any other professionally run and publicly traded company.
Anything else is just deluding yourself into fairy tales about fair world, nice guys and mythical values that some mythical companies are out to defend.
It's just business. Nothing more to it.
End of story.
What happens when the Chinese government comes knocking on Googles door ask (demanding) the same records? Do they really think "No" will be a choice?
I like that quote, but can you explain the relevance here? I'm sure it's obvious, but I just can't come up with anything.
From a "kazaa lite" search: In response to a complaint we received under the US Digital Millennium Copyright Act, we have removed 2 result(s) from this page. If you wish, you may read the DMCA complaint that caused the removal(s) at ChillingEffects.org. That's what they're going to do in China, too. Explain to me how that's evil?
120 characters for a sig? That's bloody useless.
Saying that its "OK" with us when American companies provide services that are contrtraryy to the 1st Ammendment, of all things, is a display pure greed and cowardice.
If Google helps fulfill the goal of the Chinese government to censor information, it is in essence providing a service for that government, which is contradictory to both GOOGLES' own statements and the general right to Freedom of Speech which is one of the pillars of the Western World, then:
This most definately fits under the defination of 'hipocrisy.'
Say one thing, do another; Do as I say, not as I do, are all contradictions in thought and hipocritical statements.
Wake up! Google is going to assist the Chinese Government in helping censor it's people! That is essentially analogous to selling them tear gas or helping equip their military. And no one would agree with that.
If you live in America or any country where The People have freedom of expression and are of the opinion that it's perfectly fine to allow Google to help China censor people, you ought to take a minute to re-read the First Ammendment (which you apparently forgot about) that you enjoy, and probably don't even deserve.
Plain and simple: There is no ethical justification in assisting an oppressive government to censor its people. Period.
Wanna make money off enabling a foreign government to oppress it's people? Might as well sell them some Guns while your at it.
It's not hipocritical? WHY ARE YOU ALLOWED TO POST THE OPiNION YOU JUST EXPRESSED? Or perhaps it should have been censored, eh?
Compare this American Google image search for "tiananmen square" to the same search in the Chinese Google image search. Notice that the only result that even mentions something related to the imfamous student protests is this result, which makes it seem as if the government didn't do anything wrong, but the protestors did. Google is clearly wrong in this case. Google is right to stand up against the Bush administration, but Google is wrong to not do the same against the Chinese administration. A spade is a spade, but apparently there is a partisan divide that dictates people's beliefs on this issue.
Clearly, "Don't be evil" has to go. It no longer applies. But wait! That doesn't mean that the concept and the branding that have gone into it need to be scrapped! Google just needs a slightly retooled slogan that incorporates the old idea into the new reality of Google. My recommendations: "Be a little bit evil occasionally." "Don't be evil everywhere, all at once. Pace yourself." "New & improved Google! Now with 25% more evil!" "Evil is inversely proportional to profit."
Anything that pertains to Google is praised. Anything that pertains to MS is lambasted. You people are fucking sheep. Think for yourselves for once.
i guess france and canda should be happy. its the global convention for the protection of cultural diversity type nonsense they passed in unesco censorship to protect culture esp big bad evil western american culture. go freedom!
Don't worry, the selfish among the developed western world will hapilly ignore your comment.
"Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
...in China they redirect the Wikipedia entry for communism to this guy's site.
No Sigs!
If I was a netizen in China, I would be able to get Google search results without all the annoying ads, and sponsored serach results?
People here justifying Google's decisions bascically are saying that by not providing Google's services, they would be comitting more evil. That's such twisted thinking. They're saying that Google has a moral obligation to provide search engine services to China.
That argument doesn't make sense.
What Google is doing that's "evil" is doing business with a totalitarian regime. They're being like every other business and selling to whomever buys, no questions asked.
A principled stand would be to refuse to do business with a country that engages in repression of freedoms that, according to the thinkers that forged our country, are granted to all people by our Creator, that governments rule from the consent of the goverend.
By selling their services like this, Google takes the stand that such values are meaningless to them, when faced with the lure of more money.
In the end, that's probably the most American sentiment of all.
http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/25/news/international /davos_fortune/?cnn=yes
He does make some valid points, although I'm not sure I buy everything he's selling...
As someone interested in informational hygeine, it seems to me that a Yahoo! article about the evils of Google is not exactly an unbiased source (seeing as they're -duh- bitter rivals). Nor is the articles claim of Google hypocrisy entirely without irony, as Yahoo! is known to roll over to any government that looks at them crosseyed, regardless of the request's civil rights implications. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/20/technology/20goo gle.html?hp&ex=1137819600&en=827292691dc60fc1&ei=5 094&partner=homepage
Well, then lets round up everything on Intelligent design and send it to them.
I believe that what you meant was that China needs complete and factual information. Which is not what Google is (anymore) providing.
That is all.
Simply put Google choose to compromise it's ethics because it wouldn't be able to make money in China otherwise.
Profits over Ethics = evil
Take your Google apologies elsewhere.. If they didn't want to be judged in a black and white sense they should not publically brandish and pride themselves in a black and white corporate motto. kthxbai
I'm a fiscal conservative, it's a pity we don't have a political party anymore
All of you "OH NOES! GOOGLE IS TEH EVIL!!!11!eleventyone" people need to re-evaluate their lives. Do you all consider yourselves evil? No? How many of you are working on systems whose parts were manufactured in China? How many of your clothes and shoes were made there? How many objects can you find within ten feet of you right this second that were made in China? You are doing business in China, by buying their goods, but you are not evil. Why are you applying a double standard to Google?
It does a pretty good job with "big butts," too:
US: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=big+butts
CN: http://www.google.cn/search?hl=zh-CN&q=big+butts
If a baby duck is a "duckling," why would anyone want to eat "dumplings?"
Now we're seeing it in USA, and ...
Hang on, there's a knock at the door.
I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
At least China doesn't pretend to be a free society. We in the U.S. pride ourselves as being one of the most free nations in the world, but our government does many of the same things to monitor and control the thoughts of its citizens. Only we call it "national security" or "executive privilege."
Which is really the more evil?
!#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
NT la de da, la de da di do uh huh , yeh uh yeh
Do you believe in censorship? If no you can't support and worse enforce censorshop. Period. This ends my respect for google. From now on they are just another company. We all have values untill we have to make a sacrifice. Sad.
karma
I tell you what, I'll support Google's decision if Google will put a frontpage apology on its non-Chinese sites stating "We apologize for collaborating with vile tyrants, and we challenge MSN and Yahoo to do the same." Then, maybe, I might be a little more willing to accept their collaborator routine.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Do you think you have access to all information available in the US? No. The government already censors some of the information we would like to read because 'it is not good for us'. Kennedy, Roswell, others anyone.
The government decides what 'we the people' should be allowed to read.
indeed mr ac indeed.
Should google stop doing business in america because they are tacitly supporting the torture going on in the USA's secret prisions with the taxes they pay? are they evil because they support the government of the country that they operate in? wheres the difference.
why do americans think that they can dicate to the rest of the world what good and evil are??? this is exactly why america has so many foreign affairs issues.
I'll just use my special getting high powers one more time...
It applies to this situation because of what the Chinese government is trying to do and what the Google name (at least up to this point) has stood for.
... now I don't know if those stories are true or not..but at least I have the _Freedom_ to see both sides of the story. If that were my government, at least I would be able to look into it...to question it. The Chinese guy can't do that now....
The Chinese government doesn't just want to block the searches of it's citizens; They are keenly aware of the sentiment that Goethe wrote about in that quote- They want their people to think that they are free without actually being free at all (in effect "hopelessly enslaving" them). The Chinese citizen that searches for "Falun Gong" and the first thing he sees is a Chinese propaganda site calling them a "violent" cult while hiding all of the stories about the torture and brutality that these people have endured at the hands of the Chinese government
And the worst part about it...the _worst_ part...
It's done under the name of an _American_ company; A country that represents freedom (or at least it did before the Bush era) to everyone across the globe. Google doesn't just take it's own name in there...it takes the name of America with it. So it makes the Goethe quote that much more poignant, because the guy searching for information about the Chinese government's brutality associates that Google/American image with the site he's using and says to himself "Hey...these guys are Americans...the paragons of freedom...if there was something bad to report here, then they would certainly be telling me"...So it's worse than getting _no_ information because the _some_ information is _specifically designed to prevent him from trying to do justice for his countrymen_.
I called my representative, Tim Ryan (OH-17), about this and as an answer to your statement celebrating Google's submission to the Chinese government, I will leave you his statement:
"Americans were told that globalization and free trade would make countries like China more democratic. But the recent decisions by Microsoft, Yahoo, and now Google, show otherwise and are cause for great concern. These companies share more than just an American address. They've all benefited richly from America's democratic values and our free market system-not to mention billions of taxpayer dollars that helped develop the Internet and other information technologies. As such, American citizens and lawmakers have every right to demand that U.S. companies advance freedom rather than oppression."
Re:GoogleRepublican already exists! Just hop on over to FoxNews.com.
Ummm "evil actions" are a matter of perspective are they not? In China, going against what the government wants is considered "evil", so in that respect, Google is still "doing no evil". What may work in the west doesn't necesarily work in the east.
Probably no one will read this. Oh well.
History shows that revolutions under oppressive regimes occur when the regimes slack off on the oppression. They concede a little bit to the people. Revolution occurs. I know this is true in Western Europe, but the Chinese Cultural Revolution is a bit more complex than that....
Scenario:
What happens when Google goes into China, sets up a huge infrastructure that is (more or less) trusted by the Chinese government, and becomes the most popular search engine in China (though censored) - and then all (many?) of the employees go on vacation or to a meeting at Google HQ, and the system's censorship is turned off - ? Or if it happens through 'no fault of google'?
Will they have just one central office or many small offices? Server locations? Will it become difficult or impossible for the Chinese Government to shut them all down? Will the systems be designed so that information that the government feels tempted to yoink from Google's machines just isn't available?
The "wedge" strategy, I believe it's called. Foot in the Door.
Anyone with some insight on the way Chinese culturally think, want to conjecture / comment?
You DO get mentions of the massacre, even with the censorship. Basically, the Chinese will have to be inventive in their searches.
Check it out:
tiananmen square massacre
Pay attention . . . China is not a democracy!!!!
Either they do not index certain sites, or the government gets mad at them and either shuts them down in China or blocks them in China.
I would argue that any information is more valuable than none, and that knowing your results are being censored is better than not.
Slashdot: Where anecdotes and generalizations can be freely substituted for facts, logic, or intelligence
Google should let the Chinese government handle their own censorship. Censoring results at their server is a tacit endorsement for censorship. period. Google makes it's money with advertising, so they are censoring to get advertising dollars from China. Using your argument it's not evil to obey other countries laws. So by that reasoning it's not Immoral to sell limb choppers to the middle east. And it's not immoral to provide information on uranium enrichment to Iran. And it's not immoral to provide other countries with software to optimize the processing and torture of prisoners and information systems to track people toviolate human rights. Would it be evil for Google to flag personal IP's for illegal search words so the Chinese police can arrest people? They would just be obeying the local laws right? I don't think your seeing the big picture here. Any kind of data filtration or modification of the information on the internet is evil. That's leading us down a road where unpopular ideas like democracy and freedom are censored across the board. That is leading us to thought crime and covert monitoring of citizens. If companies like Microsoft and google are helping the Chinese government keep their people in the dark and censoring the information they can view then that isn't just bad news for China. that is bad news for freedom and democracy and it will come back to haunt us.
Well, I don't have much to say about this "alternative" Google service, it is unlikely that I'm going to use it anyway even though I'm a Chinese because a) I'm not in China at the moment (or even I'm back at home, I'm luckily outside of the GFW), b) I don't think it is a good idea to use a service who have pre-emptively announced on the censorship.
For your curiousity about this "what's being banned?", here is a non-exhaustive list of banned items in instant messaging and wireless communication: http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20040902_1.htm
Here are some less howling opinions about Google entering China: http://www.zonaeuropa.com/200601brief.htm#096
28481k
Somebody deviously injected moral relativism & cultural values into this as if censorship is a 'chinese value' as opposed to an oppressive tool deployed by a tyranical regime. And I'm sure a lot of the posters will have little qualm dealing with pre-apartheid South africa, after all the argument's the same, the law of the land. Integrity is not negotiable, to have values untill it's inconvenient is just pathetic.
karma
In a more general case, companies in the modern world are in a very difficult position as more and more power is moved away from governments to corporations and we turn more and more from citizens to consumers who vote with wallets instead of ballots.
The problem is choosing between complete non-discriminatory neutrality in the market -- which means you are seen as an evil cold utilitarian money-grabbing machine and get hated by people -- and actually taking positions and influencing things according to some set of values, which means you are hated by people because you are excercising power over something.
All entities in positions of power have this problem (compare with US foreign policy). This is one of the reasons why I prefer keeping things simple, clear-cut and old-fashioned: companies focused on doing what they do and being checked by politics when neccessary. This provides for two different power mechanisms that, hopefully, will maintain some sort of sensible balance.
That considered, maybe in this case it would indeed be best if Google just did what they do best and let China block them if they so choose, without going out of their way to actually accomodate...
I want to play Free Market with a drowning Libertarian.
The truth is that the complex ethical decisions faced by Google don't fall easily into a black-and-white division of "good" versus "evil". Providing a powerful search service makes people better-informed and more productive. That's good! On the other hand, it gravely erodes privacy since anything you ever put on the web can be easily traced. That's bad! In this China business, they are only one part of a system engineering by the PRC govt. Either they partially submit to the Chinese demands and hope to do at least some good, or they bail out completely and leave the field to other companies who will censor even further. No decision they can make is completely non-evil.
I do not personally believe in evil, so this whole discssion is a bit bizarre.
The thing is, if you stand by your values, then you don't participate in such activities that go against it. Here, Google is making money on propaganda and filtering for the Chinese Government.
Justifying it with "others will do it if we do not", is just too cheap. Then you're not living by your values anymore.
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
First, although this may be meaningless semantics, I believe the policy states "Don't be evil," not "Do no evil." You can do evil and not be evil. The distinction lies in the details. Is the thief who steals to feed his starving family being evil? The answer is a whole lot less clear.
Related to that, it seems that a lot of people on this site and elsewhere seem to (unfairly, I think) hold Google to a much higher standard than anyone else. For example, no one batted an eye when Microsoft, Yahoo, and AOL complied with the government's request for their search data. But when Google did, "OMG! Stop the presses!" That story wasn't so much about the government's onerous subpoena, but about Google. Another good one is the complaints about its Gmail service. They've got your personal data! Yeah, and how many of you have been using Yahoo and Hotmail for years? What's different here? The only difference (besides exceptional features and service) is they use an algorithm that tries to target ads to you. If the alternative to targeted text ads is annoying popups, pop-unders, and flashy, vibrating, seizure-inducing banner ads, I'll gladly accept the limited targeted text ads as an improvement. A lot of the flak Google gets seems to stem from the expectation that it must be all things to everyone.
And my main point, assuming you think Google is a good company that compensates and treats its employees and customers well, Google stands to do a lot of good, in spite of the evil of complying with China's unquestionably evil speech restrictions. I haven't heard any complaints about the way Google treats its employees or customers yet, but I have heard a lot of good things. I'm not a free-market fundamentalist by any means, I believe in an effective activist government, I believe in the social safety net, but I also believe in the power of the free market. The great wealth that America enjoys today, and that China is just beginning to create for itself, is due to the power of free enterprise. A company like Google that can make a lot of money by making a lot of people happy stands to do a lot of good wherever it goes, China included, in spite of the restrictions it imposes. A presense in China means raising the standard of living for its employees, its contractors, its customers, and the communities they inhabit. And that's a lot of good that I haven't seen anyone here yet recognize. (Although it took me some time to write this up so someone may have since I read the comments.)
Something Slipped Through! Check it out: tanks.
1 0&hl=zh-CN&lr=&cr=countryCN&start=80&sa=N
http://images.google.cn/images?q=tiananmen&svnum=
random underscore blankspace at ya know hoo dot comedy.
If they didn't filter search results to the Chinese govt's liking, there would be three outcomes:
1. China does it for them, blocking certain searches and sites, resulting in a slightly clunkier UI for chinese (broken links etc)
2. China blocks google altogether
3. Google finds a way around the Great Firewall of China
What Google have done is basically #1, preserving the user experience. If Google stood their ground and demanded unfiltered results, #2 would probably happen, which would probably be more moral, but brave and stupid. Google could refuse to back down, China could then strike a deal with another search company, and Google would lose out big time (no Chinese bling), with no better moral outcome (there would still be the same level of censorship in China).
If Google did #3, that would be a form of electronic, um, police action on China, which is probably amoral and illegal for a company to do.
Damn, I already moderated this topic. Now I'll have to log in with my sock puppet to comment.
Companies like Ford and ITT were doing business with Nazi Germany before US involvement in WWII, but when we knew that the Nazi's were "bad guys" and there's considerable proof that those companies KEPT doing business with Germany DURING WWII, especially ITT.
/.'ers that are so up in arms about it, did you sell your GOOG shares in protest? If not, you're as bad as they are.
Sure, we're not at war with China (yet), but Mao et all at PRC Inc. have killed more of their own people than Hitler or Stalin by some estimates. I suggest a few Google.COM searches on that. I don't think you'll find it on Google.CN.
The HUGE difference is that Google is a company that has this lame ass slogan of "Do No Evil" that by this act makes it look even more shallow and hypocritical than any other company could. They have finally hung themselves with their own rope. Not that it's a surprise that it would happen after going public.
As for all you
OK, here's the kicker: Every individual human being has their OWN UNDERSTANDING of the word evil. I admire google for putting the statement in their manifesto, I do believe it will make all employees that work there think a little more about their decisions....but it really means nothing. Anybody ever consider that some folks (maybe Chinese) think America is "evil"? Person A may believe one thing is "evil" and another thing is "good" and person B may hold the opposite view....both are right! I personally try to rid my speech and thoughts of absolute words like good, bad, evil.....or at least say "I THINK"...so and so is good/evil...
So what if Saudi Arabia required adds for slaves in Google? I mean it's still better for Saudi Arabia to have google even if it helps sell people in human slavery, right? Slaves get sold there either way. So it's a hard choice, but I am sure doing a little good along with the evil is all for the best. /sarcasm off.
Google said they wouldn't monitor you email and now they do. Yeah they changed the TOS, but quietly. Did you get an email clearly explaining the change and asking if you wanted to opt out? Google knows people are very reluctant to change email addresses. They get you hooked on an email address and service, give you lots of features and promise to be nice. After you are hooked and that is where all your correspondence goes, surprise, the TOS change.
A recent survey showed that something like 75% of the people had no idea about he personal data Google collects and what they do with it. They currently promise only to use it for their business purposes. But they also reserve the right to change their minds about this.
Do not evil is simple the best marketing program in years. Google is a commercial enterprise like all the others. They are no better and may or may not be worse. They do a lot of cute stuff to fool you. The founders take salaries of $1. Gee, if you are worth 10 billion it is a real hardship. But the press reports this and they look like good guys. These guys are the best PR guys out there.
But, despite how good they are at the hype game, just remember: You can fool some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time! Eventually, the public catches on and sees through the hype. The Chine stuff is the first crack in the wall of brilliant PR.
A few days ago someone started a thread about Google News coming out of beta. I referred to an earlier slashdot article describing how the algorithm for Google News had a bias toward right wing sources.
A comment about Google News, in a thread about Google News, based on a slashdot article about Google News was marked as "flame bait" by several mods.
That is the same thing people are criticizing China for in this thread which is getting hostile over what people have to say instead of dealing with the truth.
Don't get me wrong. What the government of the PRC does sucks and Google is wrong in enabling them, but before slashdotters get on their high horses they ( at least those mods ) should ask themselves if they are any better.
Change happens slow. Google isn't doing anything evil by being part of that process. Look at where China was in the 1950's. One more set of old folks kick the bucket and things will change again. The article, and people that wan't to stomp their feet and boo hoo because the world isn't utopic, is an example of pure childish zeal.
Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
I don't see this as evil per-se, keeping the masses in China under rule is needed for much of the world to run. Who will build your products for next to nothing? Who will provide the cheap labour if they have the freedom to explore other options? This isn't a troll, its a serious question: If China and many other countries became 'free' who would do the dirty work?
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
Without google, the largest population of human beings in the world would be missing out on some of the best parts of the internet.
Google is "some of the best parts of the internet"? It's not like there are no search engines in China. It's not like Baidu isn't already as good as Google. It's not like Google doesn't already own a stake in Baidu.
Google going to China doesn't really help China. It may help political leaders in China show how open they are to the west. But it doesn't help the people of China. This is really about what's good for Google.
The only reason Google is doing this is for the benefit of Google. Period.
Murder and slavery isn't impossible to duplicate. That doesn't mean you should engage in it under threat that someone else will.
-------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
Google is lending it's name and it's support to the Chinese memory hole.
Someone else may very well cease the opportunity to do evil. That doesn't mean that you SHOULD.
And BTW, those who think that America will EVER make a net dime exporting to China is fooling themselves. It will ALWAYS be cheaper to exploit indenturerd servants (state slaves) than dealing with free workers with collective bargaining capability.
-------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
Reading peoples responses to the situation is fascinating. Many people express disappointment to disgust with google's actions. I wasn't aware that so many people were concerned about the ethical treatment of the Chinese people by its government. Honestly, it's very hard for me to believe so many slashdotters are active in fighting the oppression of the Chinese. Certainly, though, this mockery will cause many outraged people to immediately stop using google and all of its services... right?
I mean, if you believe Google is contradicting its values ("Do no evil") by aiding an evil government, wouldn't it follow that you would be contradicting your own values ("Google's actions make a mockery of its values") by aiding an evil corporation? I look forward to people renouncing all of the Google services they use.
http://www.talknerdy.org
Google was faced with two options -- 1) deal with China in such a way that may "enable" their evilness, or 2) don't deal with them at all.
That's the same situation the U.S. Gvt was twice put in after the communist revolutions in Cuba and China. In the case of Cuba they chose (2), and in the case of China they chose (1). In choosing (1) for China they have for years been subject to the exact same critisism that Google is now recieving. But all these years later, look at what the decisions of the U.S. Gvt has meant for the people of those countries. Exactly nothing has happened in Cuba in all that time, and stillthey only hope the Cuban people have is that maybe one day Castro might die. China has been transformed by the economic forces we let in, and the political and social forces that accompany them. People today in China have great cause for hope.
So in light of the evidence, I find it a stretch to argue that the isolationist course is the higher ideal.
I don't believe that Google's refusal would make any difference.
However, I do believe that willfully aiding and profiteering from the repression of others is fundamentally evil.
A gangster could come up to you on the street and ask you to fence stolen goods. You would be VERY well compensated. And you could reason that if you didn't do it, someone else would. At the end of the day though, you are supporting theft.
A moral person who had an alternative would walk away and allow that someone else to do evil.
-------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
Looks like have simply redefined "evil" so in that case they are not doing any -- no conflict. Seems like G. Bush had the idea first however. What's happening to Google?
The young people who grow up and take the reigns of power in China will have just as much of a vested interest in maintaining their power as their elders did.
Capitalism and Democracy are NOT joined at the hip. What China has become is a fascist country where the power resides in a collusion of oligarchs (corpratists) and beuracrats.
The people who have no right to vote for their leaders are COMPLETELY removed from the process. They are children of the state. And eastern culture is quite clear. The children serve the parents, not the other way around.
China's embrace of unregulated capitalism (save protecting the state) is far more disturbing than communism. Planned economies do not work and it creates a large incentive for disaffected masses to rebel. However the introduction of a token middle class could have a tendency to short circuit the whole affair as anger against the state is redirected against the guy one step up the ladder (bugeouise) rather than the people sitting at the top.
-------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
What exactly.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
As long as the communists believe they can effectively censor their people, when in reality, they cannot, then we have won that war.
It's kind of odd reasoning. Let me explain.
If Google is able to operate in China, people will have greater access to information. Censoring on keywords will convince the government that they are doing a good job censoring, but the people are smarter than simple censoring software and will work around it. Censorship, after all, never works.
Inevitably, the ideas of democracy and liberty will penetrate more hearts and minds because Google makes access to that information easier. The communist government, convinced by Google (et al) that censoring is working, will be caught with their pants down when the people finally revolt.
What would be worse is if China shut down their internet to outside access completely, and didn't rely on 3rd parties to do their dirty work of censoring (which I doubt Google is going to do very vigorously anyway.) The DPRK is a good example of what could happen, and we are glad it is not.
The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
China is moving towards a more open society, for bunnies sakes, all the big international companies are making bussiness there.
This is the land of Mao and the Cultural Revolution. You lack historical perspective.
If China was moving in the wrong direction you may have a point, but if you think a country of 1.2 billion people with an authoritarian tradition will move to democracy real soon, you are completely deluded.
It is imperative to make bussiness in CHina because that way they will be forced to bring values of transparency and accountability (nobody wants to invest in a country with a shaddy legal system or marred by corruption.
Today. not making bussiness in China would be evil for the simple fact that you would be ignoring the big picture.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
The current Chinese elite has long time ago dissociated themselves from Maoist teachings. For bunnies sakes, the trial of the gang of four was decades ago.
This regime is the one allowing commerce with Western companies and allowing direct ownership of Chinese companies by foreigners.
And they just allowed Lolita to be published uncensored.
They are moving in the right direction, but you can expect their monumental inertia to allow them to do this conversion swiftly.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
It is not the same to buy rice from China and collaborating with the repression.
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
I use Google and block their advertisements. Is that enough?
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
Their job is to provide search results to those who need them.
Which, arguably, they are no longer doing in China.
It's official. Most of you are morons.
Because they are an independent sovereign nation.
It is the work of other goverments to make them see the wrongndness of their ways, but it is not necessarily a task for a private company.
Many companies do actually choose not to work in some unsavoury places, but in the case of China this is becoming an impossibility: if only one of your competitors goes into that market, you can't afford not to do the same. Not taping that market now may doom you in the future.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Okay, so everyone is making a huge deal about Google not handing over personal information to the United States government and then turning around and doing this in China. But did you ever think that part of the reason they're censoring their Chinese results is so that they don't have to hand over the personal information of "enemies of the state"? They're protecting the Chinese people and offering as much of their service as possible. Can anybody explain how they are doing anything wrong here? There are other search engines out there for the Chinese people to use if they need information, but for safe general browsing Google is making itself the obvious choice.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Either obey your "motto" or stop freaking talking about it.
Google giving its blessing to China's censorship is SUPPORTING the government. Its NOT helping the people just a little like people keep saying.
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
Why do you support child fucking? You think sex with preteens is ethical if the child enjoys it. You can argue that you live in your own moral universe but that doesn't change the fact that you are a child molesting sicko. Moral relativism is the philosophy of criminals and pedophiles like you i.e. scumbags.
Oh please! So now we have to respect totalitarian standards and slavery now, just because it is of a different country. Totalitarianism is not part of the Chinese culture, it is a part of the Chinese government. There is a huge difference between culture and government. The Chinese didn't democratically elect their totalitarian government, so this is not to the standards of the Chinese people at all.
Humans are born with natural rights; one of those rights is the freedom of speech. The government doesn't grant humans rights; they are born with specific rights. How dare you call us Americans arrogant for being angry about China's lack of free speech and about Google's willingness to bend over and take it from them. Don't get me wrong, I am a firm believer in Milton Friedman's quote "The only social responsibility of a corporation is to deliver a profit to its shareholders." However, I am also a firm believer in freedom, too. Freedom is the only meaningful set of values. It's not Google's policy that I'm very mad about. It's about China's evil, totalitarian government.
I am worried about the future. If China gets more powerful yet retains its totalitarian government, then we Americans have a lot to worry about. We already depend on China for nearly all of our goods, just like we depend on the Middle East for nearly all of our oil. This is dangerous. This country needs to get back up on its feet and reduce its dependence on unstable and totalitarian nations if we don't expect to be taken over by totalitarians.
I argue that correct information is better than getting propaganda. I'd rather them with no information than to be filled with propaganda.
It's much easier to learn new things from scratch when the information becomes available than it is to learn a bunch of propaganda (Eurasia has always been at war with Oceania, for instance), and have to unlearn it when it has been falsified. Plus, people brought up with propaganda won't believe the truth and will believe their false beliefs until they carry them to the grave.
No information is better than false information. At least it won't turn people into propaganda zombies.
... is that a company that states that has a set of values is perfect and all knowing.
/.ers is worrying and shameful.
And that would be easy if there were no ambigous situations in real life.
Neither you, Google or the Chinese goverment know at this moment what would be more beneficial in the long term for the Chinese population.
Many people blabber about the lack of freedom and democracy in China but fail to realize a couple of things:
-Chinese people at large like the way things are, they value economic progress over democratic freedoms, at least for the time being.
-You can't introduce democratic values in a society like China overnight.
This country, just 30 years ago, was financing psicopaths all around the world to make the Cultural Revolution a global phenomenon, and now they are allowing Google, a foreign company, to hold the keys to the Internet. They may dictate the rules under which those keys are used, but the keys are Google's not the Chinese goverment's. THis is a monumental shift in openess, and I think is good time that some people stop blabbering and recognize the lenghts to which the Chinese elite has gone so far in order to move China in the correct direction without generalized violence.
The shortermism and facile black and white vision of the world of many
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Chill out, people. There is no censorship in China, it's an urban legend that has already been debunked by Snopes China .
Umm, slight correction. They /did/ absolutely have Google. And uncensored, too. Of course, they couldn't get to contentious results, but they absolutely could see what was being censored. Now they have no ability to see the practical results of such censorship.
an interesting point, to be sure.
but one spin that might be considered: fox news pushes information, and the viewer takes no action. however in the case of a search engine, the user actively chooses the search criteria.
this i think mitigates the filtering to some degree, and together with the constant flux of change on the availability of information (which wants to be free), i have a feeling the chinese government's battle can only ultimately fail.
Google wasn't exactly blazing a trail in China. From reading the comments, it seems that Google is the only search portal in China. Now, AFAIK, other search engines in China, like Yahoo! and Baidu, provide content. Since Google isn't the first search engine to appear in that country, then one can't really argue that they made a tough decision by providing *some* content. *Some* content was already there, provided for by the aforementioned search engines.
Who cares who put them into place? The point is the GOP is being immoral by continuing to allow them to exist at all.
Dog is my co-pilot.
1) Do No Evil
2) Wait, Do Evil
3) PROFIT!!!!!!!!!!!!
You should note that it was mostly the university students who lead the revolutions in Eastern Europe. The people with the best access to information, no matter what sort of information it was.
If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
Goolge is persuing a strategy called "appeasement" - it was also a military strategy tried by the Chineese for nearly 500 years and failed horribly, and only served to make their enemies stronger until China got crucified. I guess China has learnt their lesson, but Google hasn't.
If someone says "you better do 10 doses of evil or I'll do 100" - my advice would be to not do the 10 dose, because there is nothing to stop them from doing the 100 dose anyhow. The same is true with Google. This is not about wether Google is going to make an evil choice or a more evil choice. This is about whose going to be the one that makes the evil choice the Google execs censoring, or the Chinese leadership blocking. I guess the Google execs have decided it is going to be them. Well fine, but don't say "do no evil".
Google has done more than just appease (thus reward) an evil choice. They have denied their own free will, the free will of the Chineese leadership, and thus the free will of the Chineese people. Well geuss what, free will is about freedom, and search is a consequence of freedom not a cause of it. The Chineese people need freedom pressures more than they need search. Google has done noone a favor.
And you simply look at it from your own agenda too.
I loath people like you, you come to the west because you have the money and power to do so, and leave all your countrymen behind to wallow in dictatorship. If every degreed and intelligent person who comes to the west stayed home, and fought the battles that need to be fought at home maybe the world wouldn't be so inequitable.
But more often than not, you come to the west for the living standards and sell your home country down the river. Then have the audacity to criticise the situation of the "exploitation" of the third world underdeveloped countries. Why are they underdeveloped? Because every man with a degree or a lump of cash is jumping ship.
So seeing as you run away from your battles I don't think you have the right to talk.
The people of South Africa, those who stayed and fought apartheid, and the western countries, companies and individuals who BOYCOTTED that regime (like google should china) are the noble ones. The companies who traded and said "they will see the error of their ways, eventually" or the South Africans who were upwardly mobile and said "nothings going to change" and cut and run are not those who will be remembered in the historybooks.
Not only did the boycotting of SA apartheid work, but it was over discrimination on race. China not only discriminates on race and location, but regularily and brutaily cracks down on it's citizens. Also torture is used extensively on falun gong and other groups.
So no, fuck you, you can't advocate "progressive" or "creeping democracy" when you weren't committed to it yourself and just ran away cause that was the easy option.
So the motto becomes:
Don't Be Evil Unless It Costs Money.
You can argue up and down all day but at the end of the day Google has given the Chinese Government the single most powerful tool on Earth for spreading propoganda and misinformation. Try to convince me that is not evil.
The old, not publically traded, Google was briefly blocked by China for not knuckling under. They stood their ground and were unblocked because the Chinese recognized that blocking their people from accessing that info was putting China at a disadvantage. Now Google is choosing to deliberately provide lies and propoganda in response to specific search terms. What's changed?
I'm really sad this happened, even though in theory it means that I will have better access to Google in the near future.
g +evil
The idea that serving something is better than nothing is totally false. The idea that by serving a little now someday it will help influence people to demand change from the gov't is also false. I live in Beijing and with all the free market capitalism here there is not an equal demand for freedom (other than freedom to buy stuff). That's because people are convinced the best they can hope for is to have money to buy stuff and dodge the gov't as much as possible. Cynical, yes, but after living here for 2 years that is what I see.
All that it does is tell the Chinese Gov't people are willing to accede to their demands to help them inprove fascism. It's part of a strategy to give the appearance of freedom without the moral depth.
Here's something. Send Google a message:
http://www.google.com/search?q=censorship+is+doin
Anyone out their good with Gimp and can wip up a nice little logo? If that query suddenly became the most popular search string at google maybe it will wake them up.
Peace, or Not?
Imagine if google applied their search technology to censorship (if it already hasn't).
With google search, you just type in a word and, quite often, the right information pops up. Sometimes it's uncanny how it can guess which meaning of a word you wanted.
Imagine if Chinese censors could filter information in an equally powerful way. Just type in "filter: tiananmen tank", and all information about tanks in tiananmen square dissappear from existence.
(no content)
In fact, a few harried intellectuals are harmless and will not set into motion a "color revolution." Widespread anti-government sentiment, on the other hand, will inevitably do just that. Your standard of effectiveness is irrelevant; Internet regulation is but one small part of the propaganda effort that orchestrates political thought and thereby sustains the party's rule.
How is it, again, "evil" for a business to obey laws? I thought Slashdot hated it when corporations were powerful enough to stand up to governments.
...but is it art?
Any credence given to emotive witing by "Bambi" is yawn three very little things: Define "evil", yawn China in not emerica, yawn yawn, its google, they are an advertising company for fuck sake godness all tired, yawn
The fact is, leaving China out of business, or international relations will not bring a change to its sort of rule. Best example: Look at North Korea. Isolation didn't do them any good, and instead they are accelerating towards being a Nuclear state. They pose only more danger, not less.
With Google in China, the citizens get more information and education. It would *probably* help in the long run, as the culture could get increasingly liberal with the vast information they acquire. It will breed a new generation of citizens that are a little bit more enlightened than the previous generation, and this might inch the country slowly towards a more democratic, free rule. Baby steps.
On the other hand, we are all worried about the "slippery slope". Google must know where to draw the line -- if the Chinese govt continues to make increasingly restrictive demands, Google must know not to fall into its manipulative tricks and respond accordingly.
Google is not by any means the only ones to do business in China, yet many people are holding them up to a different standard, simply because those people haven't stopped to think things through (IMNSHO.) Many American companies, and indeed "our" own government, do business with China. Nobody expects them to stop because of censorship.
Would this thing even be in the news if Microsoft wasn't seeking to over-take Google? Microsoft tries to sell their OS to the Chinese government, even though its citizens can only use it to access censored information, and nobody bats an eyelash. Google does business there, and it's time for a congressional hearing? Hmmm
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
The year that never happened.
(Still, there seems to be ways around it...)
The filesystem is the package manager
- The refusal for giving data over a subpoena to the US Government has nothing to do with my privacy. See this NY Times article. I hate the fact that Google is pretending that this has anything to do with my privacy. Come on Google, we're not that stupid - if you're worried about your trade secrets, fine, just say so. Don't pretend you're protecting me.
- Rolling over and panting with eagerness to help the communist goons in China hardly qualifies as doing no evil. The whole point of Google's stock structure where the shares of Brin/Page/Schmidt (see here)
are worth 10 times the ordinary schmo's shares voting-wise was precisely because they said that this way they could run the company they way they wanted without worrying what the shareholders thought. The only conclusion is that Google wants to be communist enforcers, and is too worried about their valuation to stand up for core values.
If they hadn't set out promising what they did, I don't think I would have cared. But they did, and it was a factor in my liking them. How different are they from that faker Frey?Also, I want to ask the Google apologists - how many of you work for Google? If you do, then stop eating the free food and drinking the kool aid.
Of course, there is much to be said about first page ranking.
No Inflation Taxation without Representation
Just as with the tank search, you just have to dig a little.
z h-CN&lr=&cr=countryCN&start=120&sa=N
http://images.google.cn/images?q=sex&svnum=10&hl=
I'll also note that it's entirely possible that those are supposed to be teenagers. Not entirely SFW, so you get to copy/paste.
What's more, sex is an English word. Can someone try searching with the Chinese word for sex?
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Although Google has recently made some good decisions, like challenging the government on civil liberties, this decision really dissapoints
Someone is working extra hard to try and catch Google breaking its own rules. Are we all so offended that someone might actually be a goodguy that we have to pry under every rock for corruption, and maybe paint a little in when we don't find it?
Google's primary job is to help people find things. They're DAMN good at it, and it's extremely helpful to a lot of people. If they snub their nose at China, then they lose the opportunity to help people in China find things.
This isn't just about getting themselves into a market, this is about giving themselves the opportunity to help the Chinese as much as they can. The Chinese government is limiting how much they can help them, but it's far better than not at all.
All information is empowering to people, not just the dissident kind. Providing the people with access to more information, more efficiently is a net good even if the government blocks them from providing other information.
Wake up - the future is arriving faster than you think.
Seems to me this friendly and successful entrepreneur was justifying doing bad to make money. Not always but people vote with money all the time.
LOL
I can't believe so many of you bought into that "Do no evil" crap. Google is a company like any other, except that they proclaim themselves to be "holier than thou" every chance they get. Brings to mind the Pharisees, who proclaimed themselves to be more righteous than anyone else, and even prayed outdoors just so that passersby could see how "righteous" they were. In reality, the Pharisees were the biggest hypocrites in Judea.
Show me someone that *continuously* claims that he's not evil, and I'll show you a hypocrite.
Someone that's *really* "not evil" wouldn't need a slogan proclaiming such.
-- "I never gave these stories much credence." - HAL 9000
"They actually have a page where they spell out what they mean by Do No Evil. It doesn't mean, do no evil by the standards of every human in America. Their guidelines very clearly indicate that doing no evil means acting in good faith rather than trying to dupe users. It has more to do with returning honestly ranked search results, not installing spyware, and making programs you install easy to uninstall."
*That's* all that "Do no evil" means? LOL You actually buy that? If that's all it meant, then there'd be no need for a slogan, particularly a *public* slogan. Sorry, "Do no evil" is code for saying, "we're holier than the rest, beyond reproach, righteous (self-righteous, is more like it); we polish our halos and fluff our wings every day".
One who's truly "not evil" wouldn't need a public slogan proclaiming such. In fact, the very existence of such a public slogan should be reason for suspicion rather than evidence of righteousness.
-- "I never gave these stories much credence." - HAL 9000
Of course, there is much to be said about first page ranking.
Images.Google.cn's page ranking doesn't work well for Tiananmen Square and it works better for Tubgirl. Not as well as plain old Images.Google.com, though. Odd priorities when it comes to what they censor.
If Google did not serve China at all, the Chinese people would be forced to find ways to get to Google. It would be a cat-and-mouse game, but eventually they would find a way. And then they'd get pure, unadulterated Google.
By giving in to the Chinese censorship demand, Google is taking away this desire. The people of China will get a version of Google; and, if they somehow manage to bypass this "official" version of Google and reach the door of the real Google, they will be turned away.
Basically, if someone from a Chinese IP address reaches Google's doors, s/he will be sent back to the "santized Google". This is almost like those who turned escaped slaves in. Google is not only censoring results, it is also actively denying information to those Chinese who happen to access Google outside.
By all means, let the Chinese government be the sole source of information for its people. Google going black in China will vastly improve the freedom of all!
See it here:
http://www.geekculture.com/joyoftech/index.html
If you own stock in the company, there should be some way for you to register your displeasure at this decision. I expect that many of the investors who've bought Google stock since the IPO would rather the company changed its behaviour here. (Though I doubt any one investor owns a big enough share to force through a change in policy, except for the founders.)
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
Apologies, I was working off news articles here in the UK and they're stating that there was no access to Google. It is possible that they're incorrect. If what you say is the case then Google were acting to preserve the option to use their service or leave the Chinese to use another web-browser (still censored). I still think it is the best (non-evil, but not optimal) option to have the Chinese people retain Google and Google have in no way infringed in there 'No Evil' policy.
....Google gets the subpoena from the PRC to identify the researcher who searched for "gang of four" last Tuesday - and then shoots him when they get him, will Google still be declared "admirable"?
You, "sir," are a liar.
False information is doing evil. /. may have the aptitude to question what is presented, but most of the general populace do not.
Today, if you search for banned, censored topics from Google CN site, the result you get is what the Chinese Government approves. Information which hasp been filtered. Now these may be factual, but facts can be twisted to present lies. Readers of
Since Google has been presenting it self as the "do no evil" company, it is lending its credibility to the Chinese government, it is cooperating with the communist regime to maintain their lies and propaganda.
Lets say you are a new internet user in China (many still are), and you have not been exposed to much of the discussion on censorship etc. If the biggest overseas search engine is readily accessible to you, and provides you with excellent results on pretty much any "non-political" subject you throw at it, it would be natural to assume that the information presented in the "sensitive" topics carry strong credibility.
That my friends is doing evil.
Hello Friend,
My name is Gaagle. You've probably read a lot in the news about me lately, and I'm writing to you because I want to set the record straight. I'm known in these parts as a nice guy; I'm even known for my personal credo, which is "Don't be mean." I want you to keep thinking of me that way, so I'd like to share with you the position I'm in.
Across town from me lives a guy named Chiba. Chiba is a very prominent businessman in this town; a lot of our economy depends on him. Because Chiba has so much money and influence, the local police don't really apply the same rules to him as to most other people. In fact, Chiba makes his own laws in his house--he gets a sort of "local law exemption" that lets him make the rules, as long as he keeps his version of the law on his own property.
Chiba's kind of a sadistic guy. In fact, he beats his wife, every single day. Everyone knows that he beats his wife, but no one can stop it, because Chiba makes his own laws in his own house. According to Chiba, beating his wife is perfectly legal, and anyone who tries to tell him not to do it should simply mind their own business.
Chiba has a voyeuristic streak, and he's come up with a funny kind of rule: if you want to do business with him, you have to go over to his house and beat his wife while he watches. For this reason, a lot of the local businesspeople won't do business with Chiba, even though they could make a lot more money if they did. Others, though, say that the market Chiba provides is just too big to miss out on.
I have a couple of neighbors. One is named Yaboo, a funny-looking fellow, and the other is named Michael-Sam Newark, whom people have said for a long time is kind of a mean guy. Yaboo and M.S.Newark jumped at the chance to do business with Chiba. They don't much mind helping Chiba beat his wife; they say that because Chiba makes his own laws, they're not really breaking any law, just observing local law as they find it.
M.S.Newark had a press interview awhile back (the press is scrupulously neutral on the subject of Chiba's wife-beating). He said that, while he certainly doesn't condone the beating of Chiba's wife, it wouldn't really make a difference if he participates or not. Chiba will beat his wife regardless, so why not cash in? Yaboo weighed in, too: last year, one journalist publicly spoke out against Chiba's wife-beating, and Yaboo helped Chiba track down the journalist and lock him away in Chiba's private jail.
For awhile, I didn't see things the same way. I didn't want to help Chiba beat his wife or hunt down journalists; it didn't sit well with my philosophy of "Don't be mean." I thought that my existing customers (many of whom have taken an interest in Chiba's wife and care about what happens to her) who know of Gaagle as an upstanding citizen, and would leave me if they knew I was part of it. I thought my employees would be happier working for someone who was willing to take a moral stand.
But Chiba came to me recently with a great business proposition. It was an outstanding deal, just too good to turn down. I asked Chiba to let me into his circle without making me beat his wife, but he wouldn't budge. He said I had to find a way to live with myself under his terms, or stay out of his neighborhood.
So I thought long and hard about it, and I realized: "Don't be mean" actually is consistent with my beating of Chiba's wife! You see, if I'm not beating Chiba's wife, he's going to beat her himself anyway, right? So if I do it instead, I can beat his wife *less severely* than he would have--with a net result that Chiba's wife will be *less* poorly-treated than she is now! Plus, I can provide Chiba's wife with certain services that she wouldn't receive otherwise (he will let me bring her a cup of water or some food after the beatings, which he might not decide to give her himself). What could better exemplify "Don't be mean" than that?
I know some of my customers and employees might think I'm betraying my values. They know I've used my "D
I mean, just writing here on Slashdot is taking action, but has anyone thought of creating a icon program for chinese google users, where sponsoring independent websites could host a copy of few public domain pages on subjects that google.cn agrees to restrict access to? Basically replicating a set of pages of information that the chinese censors find offending - could someone ever ask you to remove it? There's no way they could shut down thousands upon thousands of globally accessible websites that host a few simple pages - it certainly would teach people a lesson about the internet and the inherent functional advantages of BGP4 routing. I'm not going to do it, or necessarily advocate it, but it's just an idea..
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The US has so many elections at so many levels of government that it's a statistical given that there will be some where the process or outcome can be in question. But does that mean that democracy as a whole is at fault since it is flawed?
I'm equally outraged at the surveillance issue, although the tortue issue has seen more movement towards being torture-free than it had in the past. These issues don't get "solved" based on some common-sense and simplistic logic. If by outlawing torture we had lost the war in Europe and allowed the Nazis to exterminate another 5 million people, would you feel better about it?
But as you played the Nazi card. Godwin's law applies . I hope you enjoy your living in the police state that seems to be developing (nice place to visit - sure as hell wouldn't want to live there)
http://paulboutin.weblogger.com/2006/01/29#a1423
You still get tanks from google.cn with three other spellings that don't translate to "Gate of Heavenly Peace," which is what Tiananmen is.
you can have my violent video games when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.
Prime UID Club
From the things that China does to its citizens. An automatic filtered search in China would be welcomed. I'm all for free speech. But look what happens if you step out of line: http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www. faluninfo.net/torturemethods2/electric-shock/GaoRo ngrong1_big.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.faluninfo.net /torturemethods2/electric-shock/&h=474&w=640&sz=34 &tbnid=jCJMHbejKaVdOM:&tbnh=99&tbnw=135&hl=en&star t=68&prev=/images%3Fq%3Delectric%26start%3D60%26sv num%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN