If you re-read my post you will see that I am talking about businesses adopting linux first and then the consumers following suit. Businesses certainly know exactly how much they pay for windows, office, sql server, and NT clients.
"I find it sad that there are people using Linux for no other reason than that it isn't Windows."
There is nothign sad about this at all. People like to buy dolphin safe tuna because some ethical compunction drives them to pay more for the same amount of tuna. People pay more to buy organic vegetables even though they are not as shiny as the commercially grown ones. As a consumer you make choices based on many criterea. Some are purely ethical (ooh this apple is so shiny and flawless looking), some are based on price, some are based on marketing, some are based on a perceived image. For a (unfortunately) minority of the consumers the ethics of how that product was made and how the manufacturer of that product behaves plays a major factor.
I don't know why anybody would see this as "sad". I choose not to pay my hard earned money to a company which behaves in an unethical manner. I also encourage other people not to give their money to the likes of Bill Gates and his mafia. I am sorry you think this is "sad" but I see it as something wonderful. I wish more people would take the ethics of a company into consideration when spending their money. It would make for a better world.
Dell, Compaq, HP, evry software company that writes windows software. But those are nothing compared to Most of congress, George W. Bush, John Ashcroft, and most of the press.
The fact that SQL is a standard has nothing to do with anything. Both SQL server and Oracle are databases. Neither one obeys all the SQL standards, both have their own extensions to standards. A database is a database, a word processor is a word processor. They are compared on price, features, looks, speed, etc. Linux and it's open source competitors to Windows only have to be "good enough" and free for them to win. If they can achieve 80% of the functionality at zero cost they will win. No ifs ands or buts about it. Most IT directors I know of are idiots but even the most moronic person on the planet has to eventually wake up to the fact that their users only take advantage of 20% of the features of any software and can easily subsitute a linux/openoffice desktop with a windows/office desktop. As for the "choice" of desktops that's baloney. Nobody on the corporate desktop has any choice. The software is dictated by the IT staff and that's that. The IT staff could just as well say "we will use KDE" and voila the choice is gone.
Once Mr. Joe idiot luser starts using openoffice he will want it at home. He will not want to learn word trust me.
In a nutshell. Linux desktop is already approaching the 80% mark pretty fast. Eventually some corporation some place is going to start implementing it. This will start a trend. Linux desktop use will explode. I figure linux should reach 10 percent in two years and over 40% in four. At the point which it reaches 20 to 30% the world will change. The software developers and the hardware manufacturers will jump aboard at about 20% I think.
"As much as people make fun of MS never innovating anything, everything I see in Linux development is meant to bring its functionality in line with Windows. If I see anything in Linux that enables me to do more than Windows, and do it with more stability (sorry, in my experience, Linux with X gives a much more unstable environment than 2k or XP), I'll give it another try. "
Yet another MS troll modded up the wazoo.
Look at where the linux desktop was a year ago. Now extrapolate another year. You see where I am going here. A year ago linux desktop was little more then a dream right now KDE looks and works great. KDE 3.0 will probably be even better.
And you know what it does not ever need to catch up or surpass windows. I remeber a year or two ago anytime a SQL server vs Oracle debate sprang up on usenet the MS people always made the same argument. SQL server is good enough to do what you want and it costs much less. The same argument goes here. As soon as Linux is good enough OS with good enough apps everything then the price factor will kick in.
When faces with a choice of spending nothing and getting 80% of the functionality or spending hundreds of thousands of dollars corporations will start making the switch. Once they switch people will start switching at home.
Having said all that I am still waiting for something in windows that is as elegant as syslog.
" I would rather be *for* something than *against* something."
All fine and dany until someone loses an eye. You may be "for" something but have no doubt MS is "against" you. And in case you haven't noticed they play dirty. I know many people are perfectly content with turning the other cheek but don't for a second think that MS will not smack you in the other cheek with a shovel.
There is a war going on just realize that. MS is better armed, better financed, better trained, has more allies. If you are not careful you will be carpetbombed into dust.
" You can say whatever you please, but the fact is that trademarks must be protected by their owners explicitly and at length in order to remain trademarked. "
But there is a limit to this insanity. The person you are replying to gave a perfectly good example of a news organization reporting that a lawsuit was lost by TI. According to you TI should immediately threaten the news organization for using it's trademark without permission right? No judge is going to make a ruling against the news company and no judge is going to rule against the fan site.
But then again we live in the US so I take that back.
Man homosexuals are some sick bastards. I thought raping little boys was bad enough but this is the product of a truly vile and sick bastard.
I used to feel sympathy for their plight (after all it doesn't seem fair to discriminate agains them) but stuff like this makes me rethink those positions.
People have spent years on death row in this country and haven't been reimbursed one cent. Apparently when the justice system frames you, sends you to jail, ruins your life for ever they don't even owe you an apology.
You were nor arguing with me. I told you to cut out the analogies, somebody else was arguing on the thread with you.
You may not realize this but on public forums like this different people may join the thread and make comments. you should look at the names before you shoot off your mouth perhaps.
" I suspect if you were caught trying to crack into a bank vault you'd be thrown in jail whether or not you actually intended to steal any of the money inside. "
Enough with the stupid analogies. They don't apply in this case.
Nobody can compete with MS on the desktop. Not linux, not Mac, not Be, Not anybody. If truly superior GUIs like the Mac are unable to put a dent in the MS monopoly nothing will. MS has a monopoly and will contue to have a monopoly now that the they bitchslapped the United States government into submission.
Linux was, is and will continue to be by and for geeks. Nothing wrong with that. It's been good for linux so far and it will continue to be good in the future. Let the mindless massed use windows and be led by nose by Bill gates. They will be forced to endure mindless ads, they will be forced to subscribe to MSN and passport, they will lose their privacy, they will get their life story turned over to marketing firms. It's the fate of the stupid sheep to be slaughtered and eaten.
"None of those times include the time wasted typing out those excessively long commands."
Where do you get this? He posted how long it took to type them up.
"Dragging and dropping is better than rsync, because with rsync you have to know and type out the name of the directory ahead of time. GUIs provide a nice spatial representation of the directory structure, and are very quick to scan and find."
Dragging and dropping would not accomplish the same task. It would copy over the entire directory as opposed to only the files that have changed.
"In order to know how to use any of those commands, you would have to spend years learning the intricacies of all the various commands, options, etc."
Not years maybe a day or two for a complicated command like find a few minutes for rsync.
"Setting up a for loop and pipeline takes an excessive amount of thought"
Maybe if you are an idiot it takes too much thought but for someone with an IQ of 169 it ought to be trivial.
"A single typo can have catastrophic results (cf. "rm -Rf *.o" and "rm -Rf *.o")"
So would highlighting a directory and then right cliking and then dragging you mouse to delete.
"Most people's needs are simple."
Well most people don't have IQs of 169. Most people are idiots who can't change their home page. That's why windows exists.
Can I move to your planet? I would love to live in a place where web designers make half a million a year. Hell where any tech job makes a half mil would be great. Or maybe jest let me know you your boss is. They are paying a half a million to a guy who thinks shell scripts are pointless I bet I could get them to pay me a million dollars.
BTW. Just yesterday I did this. "grep eth0 *" and do this all the time "cat/var/log/somelog | grep something" I can't think of any gui tool that would make this easier or faster. I won't even start with how you would duplicate the functionality of find with a gui.
"It's American, and a symbol of American characteristics such as innovation, which is in itself hated by reactionaries. "
Well I would not use the word innovation but yes it's an american symbol
"It's extremely visible. "
No doubt.
"Its market dominance could be perceived as "imperialist" or culturally imperialist by people who think like that. "
or maybe they are sonvinced there are back doors planted in it by the CIA or NSA or some such organization. Certainly I wouln't put it past them.
"It's a center of wealth and therefore, in puritanical minds, of evil decadence."
i think when most people in the world look around and see the abject poverty they live in and the constant misery they are forced to put up with they might resent obcene wealth and flamboyant lifestyles elsewhere don't you? Certainly somebody can use this as a recruitment tool.
"It could be thought of as a "vital organ" of the American economy by someone who doesn't realize how decentralized the American economy is."
This argument was put out my microsoft during the anti trust trial. MS (and their lapdog politicians) frequently argued that breaking up MS would disrupt the economy and harm the country. I heard a guest on the O'Reilly factor (I forget his name right now be he is a very vocal critic of the democats and clinton) blame the recession on clintons pursuit of MS. The Idea that harming MS would harm the economy of the US was broadcast far and wide by everybody from executives of MS to politicians. I suppose it would not surprise me if some terrorists believed it.
In this case MS bitch slapped the most powerful nation on the planet like a 5 year old stepchild. It's clear the govt is no longer in charge of anything anymore so don't worry. The real worry is when the social security agency or medicare will pull an "enron" and screw a few million people.
Sez you. First of all dissemination of code has no analogy in the brick and mortar world. You analogy is invalid to start with. Second of all even in your analogy you contradict yourself. In a church every body believes in the same god and the same interpretation of the bible, all organizations are of like minded people weather they are republicans or earth firsters. Lastly there is no real difference between a community and club.
As for the rest of your comments I think the original author did a good job of explaining it. You are under no obligation to join this community. The community rejects nobody who is willing to join. The problem is that you don't like this community, you reject their values, you reject their methods.
Fine go join a different community but for gods sake shut up about it. I have read all your posts on this thread and you keep pointing your finger and whining as if somehow the existance of this community hampers in some way. It does not. You are free to write your own code and do whatever you want with it. You are not entitled to other people's code unless you abide by their wishes. Why is this so hard to understand?
Many people have made proprietary a ton of BSD code. Sun, MS, Apple immediately come to mind. Has that hurt BSD? Though to say. It is fair to say that the free/open/netBSD operating systems are no where nearly popular as linux is. In a very real sense BSD is dying. I know the code will always be out there but nobody will be using it. In the marketplace of ideas more developers are choosing GPL if for no other reason then to prevent corporations from profiting from their code. To me that's a pretty compelling reason. I would be disgusted with the idea of working for a corporation without compensation. When you release code under the BSD license that's exactly what you are doing. I know many people don't mind coding for corporations for free but it makes me wonder. They would not clean toilets at MS for free, they would not work in the Sun mailroom for free yet they don't mind coding for them free.
I guess it takes all kinds of people.
Xerox sued palm and won. Xerox did not sue MS. Why is this legal? At this point MS is most likely infringing on a Xerox Patent but Palm is the only organization being punished for it.
Man out justice system is fucked up. If I ran the world Xerox would have to sue everybody who infringed or nobody. It's unfair to let some people off the hook.
Re:but what about the Internet Connection Firewall
on
WinXP Security Flaw
·
· Score: 2
In a court of law common sense gets thrown out the door as a first step. The next step is to evaluate how much money each party has. Whoever has the most money wins. If both parties are equally (or almost equally) wealthy then the judge considers their political affiliations. Only in the event of a tie will the so called facts come into play. Mostly though fact get twisted up pretty good.
It was clear in this case that xerox had more money then palm and that palm was actually selling a product and trying to make money from it. They were bound to lose. A company which does nothing but sit on a patent waiting for other people to infringe on it is clearly more deserving then a company which actually produces a product. In order to better serve the public the courts decided that the price of palms should go up or that they should go out of business. Cool huh?
Re:but what about the Internet Connection Firewall
on
WinXP Security Flaw
·
· Score: 2
Windows is for people who can't wipe their own asses. You expect someone who can not change their homepage to implement a firewall?
This is Microsoft for gods sake. Think real hard, look over the last 20 or thirty things some top level MS exec said in public. Find one interview, statement, debate, press release or anything that did not contain at least one lie. I dare you.
Every corporation has a culture. The culture MS has chosen to develop is one of lying, cheating and stealing.
Slashdot Mirror
If you re-read my post you will see that I am talking about businesses adopting linux first and then the consumers following suit. Businesses certainly know exactly how much they pay for windows, office, sql server, and NT clients.
"I find it sad that there are people using Linux for no other reason than that it isn't Windows."
There is nothign sad about this at all. People like to buy dolphin safe tuna because some ethical compunction drives them to pay more for the same amount of tuna. People pay more to buy organic vegetables even though they are not as shiny as the commercially grown ones. As a consumer you make choices based on many criterea. Some are purely ethical (ooh this apple is so shiny and flawless looking), some are based on price, some are based on marketing, some are based on a perceived image. For a (unfortunately) minority of the consumers the ethics of how that product was made and how the manufacturer of that product behaves plays a major factor.
I don't know why anybody would see this as "sad". I choose not to pay my hard earned money to a company which behaves in an unethical manner. I also encourage other people not to give their money to the likes of Bill Gates and his mafia. I am sorry you think this is "sad" but I see it as something wonderful. I wish more people would take the ethics of a company into consideration when spending their money. It would make for a better world.
"What allies do they have?"
Mmmm let's see now.
Dell, Compaq, HP, evry software company that writes windows software. But those are nothing compared to Most of congress, George W. Bush, John Ashcroft, and most of the press.
The fact that SQL is a standard has nothing to do with anything. Both SQL server and Oracle are databases. Neither one obeys all the SQL standards, both have their own extensions to standards. A database is a database, a word processor is a word processor. They are compared on price, features, looks, speed, etc. Linux and it's open source competitors to Windows only have to be "good enough" and free for them to win. If they can achieve 80% of the functionality at zero cost they will win. No ifs ands or buts about it. Most IT directors I know of are idiots but even the most moronic person on the planet has to eventually wake up to the fact that their users only take advantage of 20% of the features of any software and can easily subsitute a linux/openoffice desktop with a windows/office desktop. As for the "choice" of desktops that's baloney. Nobody on the corporate desktop has any choice. The software is dictated by the IT staff and that's that. The IT staff could just as well say "we will use KDE" and voila the choice is gone.
Once Mr. Joe idiot luser starts using openoffice he will want it at home. He will not want to learn word trust me.
In a nutshell. Linux desktop is already approaching the 80% mark pretty fast. Eventually some corporation some place is going to start implementing it. This will start a trend. Linux desktop use will explode. I figure linux should reach 10 percent in two years and over 40% in four. At the point which it reaches 20 to 30% the world will change. The software developers and the hardware manufacturers will jump aboard at about 20% I think.
"As much as people make fun of MS never innovating anything, everything I see in Linux development is meant to bring its functionality in line with Windows. If I see anything in Linux that enables me to do more than Windows, and do it with more stability (sorry, in my experience, Linux with X gives a much more unstable environment than 2k or XP), I'll give it another try. "
Yet another MS troll modded up the wazoo.
Look at where the linux desktop was a year ago. Now extrapolate another year. You see where I am going here. A year ago linux desktop was little more then a dream right now KDE looks and works great. KDE 3.0 will probably be even better.
And you know what it does not ever need to catch up or surpass windows. I remeber a year or two ago anytime a SQL server vs Oracle debate sprang up on usenet the MS people always made the same argument. SQL server is good enough to do what you want and it costs much less. The same argument goes here. As soon as Linux is good enough OS with good enough apps everything then the price factor will kick in.
When faces with a choice of spending nothing and getting 80% of the functionality or spending hundreds of thousands of dollars corporations will start making the switch. Once they switch people will start switching at home.
Having said all that I am still waiting for something in windows that is as elegant as syslog.
" I would rather be *for* something than *against* something."
All fine and dany until someone loses an eye. You may be "for" something but have no doubt MS is "against" you. And in case you haven't noticed they play dirty. I know many people are perfectly content with turning the other cheek but don't for a second think that MS will not smack you in the other cheek with a shovel.
There is a war going on just realize that. MS is better armed, better financed, better trained, has more allies. If you are not careful you will be carpetbombed into dust.
" You can say whatever you please, but the fact is that trademarks must be protected by their owners explicitly and at length in order to remain trademarked. "
But there is a limit to this insanity. The person you are replying to gave a perfectly good example of a news organization reporting that a lawsuit was lost by TI. According to you TI should immediately threaten the news organization for using it's trademark without permission right? No judge is going to make a ruling against the news company and no judge is going to rule against the fan site.
But then again we live in the US so I take that back.
Well if it's open source it automatically costs less. Throw in a lack of a vendor lock and you got it made.
Man homosexuals are some sick bastards. I thought raping little boys was bad enough but this is the product of a truly vile and sick bastard.
I used to feel sympathy for their plight (after all it doesn't seem fair to discriminate agains them) but stuff like this makes me rethink those positions.
People have spent years on death row in this country and haven't been reimbursed one cent. Apparently when the justice system frames you, sends you to jail, ruins your life for ever they don't even owe you an apology.
That's our society!
You were nor arguing with me. I told you to cut out the analogies, somebody else was arguing on the thread with you.
You may not realize this but on public forums like this different people may join the thread and make comments. you should look at the names before you shoot off your mouth perhaps.
" I suspect if you were caught trying to crack into a bank vault you'd be thrown in jail whether or not you actually intended to steal any of the money inside. "
Enough with the stupid analogies. They don't apply in this case.
Nobody can compete with MS on the desktop. Not linux, not Mac, not Be, Not anybody. If truly superior GUIs like the Mac are unable to put a dent in the MS monopoly nothing will. MS has a monopoly and will contue to have a monopoly now that the they bitchslapped the United States government into submission.
Linux was, is and will continue to be by and for geeks. Nothing wrong with that. It's been good for linux so far and it will continue to be good in the future. Let the mindless massed use windows and be led by nose by Bill gates. They will be forced to endure mindless ads, they will be forced to subscribe to MSN and passport, they will lose their privacy, they will get their life story turned over to marketing firms. It's the fate of the stupid sheep to be slaughtered and eaten.
"None of those times include the time wasted typing out those excessively long commands."
.o")"
Where do you get this? He posted how long it took to type them up.
"Dragging and dropping is better than rsync, because with rsync you have to know and type out the name of the directory ahead of time. GUIs provide a nice spatial representation of the directory structure, and are very quick to scan and find."
Dragging and dropping would not accomplish the same task. It would copy over the entire directory as opposed to only the files that have changed.
"In order to know how to use any of those commands, you would have to spend years learning the intricacies of all the various commands, options, etc."
Not years maybe a day or two for a complicated command like find a few minutes for rsync.
"Setting up a for loop and pipeline takes an excessive amount of thought"
Maybe if you are an idiot it takes too much thought but for someone with an IQ of 169 it ought to be trivial.
"A single typo can have catastrophic results (cf. "rm -Rf *.o" and "rm -Rf *
So would highlighting a directory and then right cliking and then dragging you mouse to delete.
"Most people's needs are simple."
Well most people don't have IQs of 169. Most people are idiots who can't change their home page. That's why windows exists.
Can I move to your planet? I would love to live in a place where web designers make half a million a year. Hell where any tech job makes a half mil would be great. Or maybe jest let me know you your boss is. They are paying a half a million to a guy who thinks shell scripts are pointless I bet I could get them to pay me a million dollars.
/var/log/somelog | grep something" I can't think of any gui tool that would make this easier or faster. I won't even start with how you would duplicate the functionality of find with a gui.
BTW. Just yesterday I did this. "grep eth0 *" and do this all the time "cat
"It's American, and a symbol of American characteristics such as innovation, which is in itself hated by reactionaries. "
Well I would not use the word innovation but yes it's an american symbol
"It's extremely visible. "
No doubt.
"Its market dominance could be perceived as "imperialist" or culturally imperialist by people who think like that. "
or maybe they are sonvinced there are back doors planted in it by the CIA or NSA or some such organization. Certainly I wouln't put it past them.
"It's a center of wealth and therefore, in puritanical minds, of evil decadence."
i think when most people in the world look around and see the abject poverty they live in and the constant misery they are forced to put up with they might resent obcene wealth and flamboyant lifestyles elsewhere don't you? Certainly somebody can use this as a recruitment tool.
"It could be thought of as a "vital organ" of the American economy by someone who doesn't realize how decentralized the American economy is."
This argument was put out my microsoft during the anti trust trial. MS (and their lapdog politicians) frequently argued that breaking up MS would disrupt the economy and harm the country. I heard a guest on the O'Reilly factor (I forget his name right now be he is a very vocal critic of the democats and clinton) blame the recession on clintons pursuit of MS. The Idea that harming MS would harm the economy of the US was broadcast far and wide by everybody from executives of MS to politicians. I suppose it would not surprise me if some terrorists believed it.
In this case MS bitch slapped the most powerful nation on the planet like a 5 year old stepchild. It's clear the govt is no longer in charge of anything anymore so don't worry. The real worry is when the social security agency or medicare will pull an "enron" and screw a few million people.
"That's not a community, that's a club"
Sez you. First of all dissemination of code has no analogy in the brick and mortar world. You analogy is invalid to start with. Second of all even in your analogy you contradict yourself. In a church every body believes in the same god and the same interpretation of the bible, all organizations are of like minded people weather they are republicans or earth firsters. Lastly there is no real difference between a community and club.
As for the rest of your comments I think the original author did a good job of explaining it. You are under no obligation to join this community. The community rejects nobody who is willing to join. The problem is that you don't like this community, you reject their values, you reject their methods.
Fine go join a different community but for gods sake shut up about it. I have read all your posts on this thread and you keep pointing your finger and whining as if somehow the existance of this community hampers in some way. It does not. You are free to write your own code and do whatever you want with it. You are not entitled to other people's code unless you abide by their wishes. Why is this so hard to understand?
Many people have made proprietary a ton of BSD code. Sun, MS, Apple immediately come to mind. Has that hurt BSD? Though to say. It is fair to say that the free/open/netBSD operating systems are no where nearly popular as linux is. In a very real sense BSD is dying. I know the code will always be out there but nobody will be using it. In the marketplace of ideas more developers are choosing GPL if for no other reason then to prevent corporations from profiting from their code. To me that's a pretty compelling reason. I would be disgusted with the idea of working for a corporation without compensation. When you release code under the BSD license that's exactly what you are doing. I know many people don't mind coding for corporations for free but it makes me wonder. They would not clean toilets at MS for free, they would not work in the Sun mailroom for free yet they don't mind coding for them free.
I guess it takes all kinds of people.
Xerox sued palm and won. Xerox did not sue MS. Why is this legal? At this point MS is most likely infringing on a Xerox Patent but Palm is the only organization being punished for it.
Man out justice system is fucked up. If I ran the world Xerox would have to sue everybody who infringed or nobody. It's unfair to let some people off the hook.
Not according to MS.
In a court of law common sense gets thrown out the door as a first step. The next step is to evaluate how much money each party has. Whoever has the most money wins. If both parties are equally (or almost equally) wealthy then the judge considers their political affiliations. Only in the event of a tie will the so called facts come into play. Mostly though fact get twisted up pretty good.
It was clear in this case that xerox had more money then palm and that palm was actually selling a product and trying to make money from it. They were bound to lose. A company which does nothing but sit on a patent waiting for other people to infringe on it is clearly more deserving then a company which actually produces a product. In order to better serve the public the courts decided that the price of palms should go up or that they should go out of business. Cool huh?
Windows is for people who can't wipe their own asses. You expect someone who can not change their homepage to implement a firewall?
see here
This is Microsoft for gods sake. Think real hard, look over the last 20 or thirty things some top level MS exec said in public. Find one interview, statement, debate, press release or anything that did not contain at least one lie. I dare you.
Every corporation has a culture. The culture MS has chosen to develop is one of lying, cheating and stealing.