I notice that "one company" is not identified in the article. Do ya think perhaps its name starts with "Micro" and ends with "Soft"?
Loved this quote: "There is no warranty for infringement of intellectual property [in the GPL], so all of the liability ends up with end users."
Does ANY software license indemify the user against spurious IP claims? I'm not a big fan of reading end user licenses, but I've never seen one that protects me against specious litigation by a pack of raving baboons.
And on it goes "End users are improperly using this copyrighted material, and under copyright law SCO is entitled to damages and injunctive relief,"
Doesn't this actually have to be determined in a court of law first? Maybe its just me, but I'm a stickler for details.
" "Those who have chosen to ignore the license are more in a situation of potential willful infringement," Sontag said."
Which "license" is he talking about exactly? They may have ignored extortion letters and blustering threats, but the GPL doesn't say anything about ex post facto licensing fees, to my knowledge.
I seriously think this guy needs to spend some time in a Federal pen. I generally wouldn't wish our court system on my worst enemy, but this McBride makes me wish that Uday and Qusay were still around to work on a contract basis.
"The fallout from the 2001 terrorist attacks and corporate scandals of last year compounded Red Herring's problems, said Tony Perkins, the magazine's founder and a columnist until the end."
Its VERY hard for me to see how 9/11 or Enron could affect a magazine to any great degree. I guess as long as Tony doesn't have to accept any PERSONAL responsibility for the magazine's demise, then he doesn't have to do any serious soul searching about his flawed business plan. The economy was on the way down before 9/11 and Enron. Its obvious he couldn't adjust to the new circumstances.
Why not throw in "the sun was in my eyes" and "my shoes were too tight" while he's at it?
Repeating a point: More than 20,000 probably people in all have e-mailed Slashdot or me about the Hellmouth series and Columbine. The vast majority of these were from kids who were asking me to get their messages out Then you have plenty to work from, without worrying that people might actually think they OWN their comments, as per the note on the bottom of each page of Slashdot
I understand the noise-making dynamics of Slashdot's Teen Hate Squads, but there is no issue of who owns comments here Again, as it clearly states that the POSTER owns his/her comments, there certainly shouldn't be an issue. But since you guys have decided that there's a buck to be made (from a tax write-off if nothing else), what the hell do we matter?
Nobody's saying what's IN the book is tacky Jon, they're saying the TIMING of the announcement is tacky. If you don't "think anybody will see it that way", then just read the posts. Obviously quite a few people already "see it that way". So just bury your head back in the sand, this will all go away soon enough
Amazon.com patents are bad - they shouldn't be able to protect their ideas...but...Slashdot readers' post's copyrights are good - they should be able to protect every word.
Amazon patenting "one click shopping" IS bad, no matter which way you cut it. People are upset because at the bottom of EVERY FREAKIN PAGE it says the POSTER OWNS THE COMMENTS. We all assumed OWNERSHIP meant exactly that. Now we find that it means "you're responsible for your comments, but you don't really own them in any meaningful way". This is bullshit lawywer doublespeak simply because its more convenient for Katz and Co. At least be honest and remove the promise of ownership from the bottom of the pages. This little dance we're seeing today is quite disgusting.
How about instead we talk about the actual book and the potential good it might do for kids dealing with the shit in it?
How about we put the book online so these selfsame young geeks can read and consider it without having to track it down and order it? How do teenage geeks order a book online without a credit card or checking account in any case?
At LEAST how about we charge a much more reasonable 7 or 8 bucks for the book so the kids might actually be able to afford it!
I wasn't comparing the GPL to the Constitution. I was extending Ransom's COMMENTS on the GPL to the Constitution. Your missive DID force me to consider such a comparison further... If you think of the Founding Fathers as the "programmers" of the country and the citizens as the "software", I think you probably COULD make some pretty interesting parallels. But I'll save that for another time... Perhaps Technocrat would be a more appropriate forum:)
Teach your children quietly, for someday sons and daughters will rise up and fight while we sit still. "Silent Running" -- Mike and the Mechanics
Yeah they messed up from the inception of the game apparently. If you design an online game, you can BET 3 things will happen.. 1. People will try to spoof the server with hacked packets. 2. People will tinker with whatever files you leave on their hard drives, hoping to find a kink in the armor. 3. People will sniff the packets you send them, hoping to glean a little extra info.
This is BASIC stuff folks, and it sounds like they didn't even consider it from the outset. Now they're trying to cover their own inept engineering by blaming it on the players.
All they needed to do is talk to a few MUD administrators. Any one of us could have told them that some players will do ANYTHING to gain an advantage. We deal with it by plugging the holes, not by blaming the players. Its their JOB to poke at the code to find the holes.
[1 Hits or bullies others.] If I remember correctly, "hitting" is also called "assault" and can be handled by the local police. "Bully" i take to mean "to treat in an overbearing or intimidating manner". So every high school Phys Ed teacher will be in BIG trouble now.
[2 Expresses uncontrolled anger.] As opposed to "controlled" anger? Define "uncontrolled".
[3 Has unlawful possession and use of firearms.] The key word again is "unlawful". Why aren't the local police called in these situations?
[4 Displays intense intolerance or prejudice.] So intolerance is unlawful now? I hate stupid people, absolutely cannot tolerate them. Now come arrest me.
[5 Has excessive feelings of isolation and/or rejection.] So how does someone ELSE define whether MY feelings are "excessive". Perl Jam would get 20 to life under this criterion. Probably 90% of geekdom felt excessively isolated or rejected in school.
[6 Conveys violence in writings and/or drawings.] Dealing with violent emotions through writing or drawing seems like a damned HEALTHY way to vent to me. A lot of people call this "art".
[7 Uses drugs or alcohol on campus.] Again, where in the hell is local law enforcement? Do we REALLY need yet another avenue of oppression?
[8 Makes threats.] Define "threat". Saying "You'll be sorry!" could suddenly get me on the "list".
[9 Suddenly has bad grades or little interest in school.] Gee, perhaps school SUCKS. Perhaps I'm daydreaming about summer vacation. Perhaps I can't quite fathom Chemistry 101. Now I'm on your "list".
[10 Is easily angered by minor things.] Again, define "minor". People cutting me off in traffic angers me. A president that lies under oath angers me. Stupid people anger me. Uh-oh. I'm on the "list" again.
This ill-considered garbage is put out by people more concerned with making a buck while appearing politically correct than with truly addressing a complex issue.
Who was it that said "for every complex problem, there's an answer that's simple, elegant and wrong?"
I would say this makes me angry, but i don't want somebody dropping dime on me!
On November 10th, there were approximately 13 search warrants issued in New York City and Rochester, New York and Austin, Texas against companies believed to be in the business of selling electronic surreptitious intercept devices, in violation of federal law. Ramsey Electronics was one of those companies. ["we raided so many places, somebody MUST have been doing something illegal, but notice how I'm not really SAYING anything here."] If something's illegal, it's illegal.[Unless of course its a Federal Law Enforcement agency breaking the law, some of us remember the drug running involved with Iran-Contra] Sometimes you can only act upon things when you're informed of them. ["we were bored and needed to keep our arrest/conviction rates high to receive funding. We've already closed down everybody selling grow lights and rousted all the DeadHeads dropping acid."] There's a task force in New York City that's been investigating this for a few years now.[A FEW YEARS(!?). How long does it take to "investigate" a clock-camera? Good job guys] They've been shutting down companies or preventing companies from selling these things, and they've been taking several criminal pleas because of this.[I've read "winning at any cost" and understand how the feds obtain convictions.] These people have been pleading guilty in Federal court.[And that's the point isn't it.. plead guilty. Haven't made our society any safer, but you have your conviction rate to worry about] San Francisco now has a task force.[and this relates to our story HOW?] Other cities are joining in, trying to stop the manufacture and distribution of this equipment.["We've harassed the indoor gardening business into extinction and need to justify our jobs". This looks like job security for the next 10 years or so] I don't know how to answer that.[no kidding] Use is use.[thanks for the lesson in the BLEEDING OBVIOUS] If you place a device in a clock, and you put that clock on the wall, and you monitor someone's conversation that you're not a part of, I think that surreptitious use speaks for itself.[this is bullshit, its perfectly legal to monitor my babysitter isn't it?] Clock, smoke detector, or picture frame, you're taking that device out of its primary use in order to secretly intercept someone else's conversation.[so a picture frame is no longer frames a picture? a clock isn't there to tell time anymore?, interesting take on reality there bub] We're not necessarily looking for kits or components. [but hey, if I can twist the law to mean kits, i'll prosecute and take the plea bargain] We're looking for items like clocks, smoke detectors and picture frames.[which TOTALLY fails to explain why you raided HOBBY PARTS SHOP. Braappp. Game Over. Thanks for playing!]
What good is a serial number that's not registered? None at all. It doesn't make sense in any context EXCEPT that we will be forced in the future to register our serial numbers. Creeping incrementalism at its finest.
It would have to be the writings of those wild-eyed radicals Jefferson, Franklin and Madison. When you read their hopes and fears for what they were building, you finally start to realize how far we've fallen and how badly we've been ripped off. Try browsing the Federalist Papers sometime to get a taste of what "they" DO NOT want you to read.
Ok I'm sold! Let's see, I have 100 users and a 10 user license for NT is $984.28. Totalling $9842.80. My Red Hat disk cost about $80.00. Uhhh, never mind.
You have agreed to turn over all intellectual and physical property to ME(tm). Your clothes, your food, the very air you breathe belongs to ME(tm). Any attempts to move from the spot you are currently situated in will be considered destruction of MY(tm) property and legal action WILL be taken. As your bed or chair is also now my property, you can no longer just lie/sit there either. Lying in bed will be considered unlawful use of MY(tm) property, and legal action WILL be taken. Clicking any button on your computer at all will be considered a binding agreement to this EULA. I have your URL, expect to hear from MY(tm) lawyers shortly.
If people would just read a little Thomas Paine, John Locke, Benjamin Franklin or Thomas Jefferson, they would see that we (Americans) have the right (duty?) to own guns for ONE REASON. They understood too well that the only way to replace an entrenched autocracy was with the force of arms. I can fill this server with quotes from all 4 authors. This has NOT changed in any way that I can see. The power grabbers' arguments about "hunters and sportsmen" completely miss the point. By accident or design we can argue till the cows come home.. But if all we're left with is some.22 deer rifles, against the firepower of the US Army, its not even an interesting contest...
Also (you got my dander up). The gun controls that HAVE been applied in this country are a joke. Badly drafted provisions give the police wide discretion in many areas to confiscate anything that looks like an "assault rifle". Many cities have banned handguns.. expect for (drum roll) city officials!
For some perspective here. Guns ARE dangerous! Freedom IS dangerous! It comes at a high price of responsibility that most Americans either can't or won't live up to. So either repeal the Second Amendment outright, or quit using gun control to further invade our tattered rights.
In closing, I do not own a gun. I have children in the house. My future prospects of gun ownership are my own business and not anyone else's.
Canter, defender of all those whacky rights, even the one that says the army can't sleep in my house:)
Our moral authority died with the natives at Wounded Knee. Why doesn't anyone talk about the "ethnic cleansing" in our own past? It makes old Sloby look like a Mousketeer..
"The majority is always wrong, and even when they're right, they're right for the wrong reasons."
I STILL fail to see where one or two real world projects would not give you the same "breadth of information" that you could get from classes.
Yeah its rougher the first time for us self-taught programmers (I laugh now that i think back on my first Novell install). But I think we come up to speed faster because we obviously have "learned how to learn" by sweat and coffee, not spoon-fed to us by someone who "knows better". Real world experience is a harsh teacher, but for some of us, that's the way we learn.
I for one am a self-taught programmer who went back to college for a CS degree. I found it extremely tedious and unrewarding. I used to argue with my "C" teacher about the stupidity of having to put a "break;" statement after each "switch" just to make things interesting.
Anyhow, COBOL class taught me how to code good, tight reports, and i finally read "The Illiad". Otherwise it was a huge waste of time and money. Give me a manual and a week to tinker, and i'll do the semester's coursework from home.
I guess I can sum it up best by saying that all a degree proves is that you can PASS TESTS. No more, no less. It proves nothing about mastery of the material, creative problem solving, or that etherial "nose for understanding systems" that make for a truly productive programmer.
A rebuttal from the one of the unwashed and sheepskin-less code monkeys.. Canter
Slashdot Mirror
I notice that "one company" is not identified in the article. Do ya think perhaps its name starts with "Micro" and ends with "Soft"?
Loved this quote: "There is no warranty for infringement of intellectual property [in the GPL], so all of the liability ends up with end users."
Does ANY software license indemify the user against spurious IP claims? I'm not a big fan of reading end user licenses, but I've never seen one that protects me against specious litigation by a pack of raving baboons.
And on it goes
"End users are improperly using this copyrighted material, and under copyright law SCO is entitled to damages and injunctive relief,"
Doesn't this actually have to be determined in a court of law first? Maybe its just me, but I'm a stickler for details.
" "Those who have chosen to ignore the license are more in a situation of potential willful infringement," Sontag said."
Which "license" is he talking about exactly? They may have ignored extortion letters and blustering threats, but the GPL doesn't say anything about ex post facto licensing fees, to my knowledge.
I seriously think this guy needs to spend some time in a Federal pen. I generally wouldn't wish our court system on my worst enemy, but this McBride makes me wish that Uday and Qusay were still around to work on a contract basis.
Its VERY hard for me to see how 9/11 or Enron could affect a magazine to any great degree. I guess as long as Tony doesn't have to accept any PERSONAL responsibility for the magazine's demise, then he doesn't have to do any serious soul searching about his flawed business plan. The economy was on the way down before 9/11 and Enron. Its obvious he couldn't adjust to the new circumstances.
Why not throw in "the sun was in my eyes" and "my shoes were too tight" while he's at it?
Then you have plenty to work from, without worrying that people might actually think they OWN their comments, as per the note on the bottom of each page of Slashdot
I understand the noise-making dynamics of Slashdot's Teen Hate Squads, but there is no issue of who owns comments here
Again, as it clearly states that the POSTER owns his/her comments, there certainly shouldn't be an issue. But since you guys have decided that there's a buck to be made (from a tax write-off if nothing else), what the hell do we matter?
Nobody's saying what's IN the book is tacky Jon, they're saying the TIMING of the announcement is tacky.
If you don't "think anybody will see it that way", then just read the posts. Obviously quite a few people already "see it that way".
So just bury your head back in the sand, this will all go away soon enough
Amazon.com patents are bad - they shouldn't be able to protect their ideas...but...Slashdot readers' post's copyrights are good - they should be able to protect every word.
Amazon patenting "one click shopping" IS bad, no matter which way you cut it.
People are upset because at the bottom of EVERY FREAKIN PAGE it says the POSTER OWNS THE COMMENTS.
We all assumed OWNERSHIP meant exactly that. Now we find that it means "you're responsible for your comments, but you don't really own them in any meaningful way". This is bullshit lawywer doublespeak simply because its more convenient for Katz and Co.
At least be honest and remove the promise of ownership from the bottom of the pages. This little dance we're seeing today is quite disgusting.
How about instead we talk about the actual book and the potential good it might do for kids dealing with the shit in it?
How about we put the book online so these selfsame young geeks can read and consider it without having to track it down and order it?
How do teenage geeks order a book online without a credit card or checking account in any case?
At LEAST how about we charge a much more reasonable 7 or 8 bucks for the book so the kids might actually be able to afford it!
I wasn't comparing the GPL to the Constitution. :)
I was extending Ransom's COMMENTS on the GPL to the Constitution.
Your missive DID force me to consider such a comparison further...
If you think of the Founding Fathers as the "programmers" of the country and the citizens as the "software", I think you probably COULD make some pretty interesting parallels. But I'll save that for another time... Perhaps Technocrat would be a more appropriate forum
Teach your children quietly, for someday sons and daughters will rise up and fight while we sit still.
"Silent Running" -- Mike and the Mechanics
It was a JOKE fer Christ's sake.
(although hopefully like most good jokes, one with some truth in there)
And thanks for pointing out that the GPL applies to software and the Constitution to people, that's something I never realized before.
I guess I should go back and reread Jefferson, Paine, Madison and Franklin.
Sheesh.
Ransom's statement is one of the most ignorant, self-serving statements I've heard since little Al Gore said the Constitution was "just a guideline".
Perhaps Ransom should run for office with his penchant for twisting a concept.
Yeah they messed up from the inception of the game apparently.
If you design an online game, you can BET 3 things will happen..
1. People will try to spoof the server with hacked packets.
2. People will tinker with whatever files you leave on their hard drives, hoping to find a kink in the armor.
3. People will sniff the packets you send them, hoping to glean a little extra info.
This is BASIC stuff folks, and it sounds like they didn't even consider it from the outset. Now they're trying to cover their own inept engineering by blaming it on the players.
All they needed to do is talk to a few MUD administrators. Any one of us could have told them that some players will do ANYTHING to gain an advantage. We deal with it by plugging the holes, not by blaming the players. Its their JOB to poke at the code to find the holes.
[1 Hits or bullies others.]
If I remember correctly, "hitting" is also called "assault" and can be handled by the local police. "Bully" i take to mean "to treat in an overbearing or intimidating manner". So every high school Phys Ed teacher will be in BIG trouble now.
[2 Expresses uncontrolled anger.]
As opposed to "controlled" anger? Define "uncontrolled".
[3 Has unlawful possession and use of firearms.]
The key word again is "unlawful". Why aren't the local police called in these situations?
[4 Displays intense intolerance or prejudice.]
So intolerance is unlawful now? I hate stupid people, absolutely cannot tolerate them. Now come arrest me.
[5 Has excessive feelings of isolation and/or rejection.]
So how does someone ELSE define whether MY feelings are "excessive". Perl Jam would get 20 to life under this criterion. Probably 90% of geekdom felt excessively isolated or rejected in school.
[6 Conveys violence in writings and/or drawings.]
Dealing with violent emotions through writing or drawing seems like a damned HEALTHY way to vent to me. A lot of people call this "art".
[7 Uses drugs or alcohol on campus.]
Again, where in the hell is local law enforcement? Do we REALLY need yet another avenue of oppression?
[8 Makes threats.]
Define "threat". Saying "You'll be sorry!" could suddenly get me on the "list".
[9 Suddenly has bad grades or little interest in
school.]
Gee, perhaps school SUCKS. Perhaps I'm daydreaming about summer vacation. Perhaps I can't quite fathom Chemistry 101. Now I'm on your "list".
[10 Is easily angered by minor things.]
Again, define "minor". People cutting me off in traffic angers me. A president that lies under oath angers me. Stupid people anger me. Uh-oh. I'm on the "list" again.
This ill-considered garbage is put out by people more concerned with making a buck while appearing politically correct than with truly addressing a complex issue.
Who was it that said "for every complex problem, there's an answer that's simple, elegant and wrong?"
I would say this makes me angry, but i don't want somebody dropping dime on me!
On November 10th, there were approximately 13 search warrants issued in New York City and Rochester, New York and Austin, Texas against companies believed to be in the business of selling electronic surreptitious intercept devices, in violation of federal law. Ramsey Electronics was one of those companies. ["we raided so many places, somebody MUST have been doing something illegal, but notice how I'm not really SAYING anything here."]
If something's illegal, it's illegal. [Unless of course its a Federal Law Enforcement agency breaking the law, some of us remember the drug running involved with Iran-Contra]
Sometimes you can only act upon things when you're informed of them. ["we were bored and needed to keep our arrest/conviction rates high to receive funding. We've already closed down everybody selling grow lights and rousted all the DeadHeads dropping acid."] There's a task force in New York City that's been investigating this for a few years now. [A FEW YEARS(!?). How long does it take to "investigate" a clock-camera? Good job guys] They've been shutting down companies or preventing companies from selling these things, and they've been taking several criminal pleas because of this. [I've read "winning at any cost" and understand how the feds obtain convictions.] These people have been pleading guilty in Federal court. [And that's the point isn't it.. plead guilty. Haven't made our society any safer, but you have your conviction rate to worry about] San Francisco now has a task force. [and this relates to our story HOW?] Other cities are joining in, trying to stop the manufacture and distribution of this equipment. ["We've harassed the indoor gardening business into extinction and need to justify our jobs". This looks like job security for the next 10 years or so]
I don't know how to answer that. [no kidding] Use is use. [thanks for the lesson in the BLEEDING OBVIOUS] If you place a device in a clock, and you put that clock on the wall, and you monitor someone's conversation that you're not a part of, I think that surreptitious use speaks for itself. [this is bullshit, its perfectly legal to monitor my babysitter isn't it?] Clock, smoke detector, or picture frame, you're taking that device out of its primary use in order to secretly intercept someone else's conversation. [so a picture frame is no longer frames a picture? a clock isn't there to tell time anymore?, interesting take on reality there bub] We're not necessarily looking for kits or components. [but hey, if I can twist the law to mean kits, i'll prosecute and take the plea bargain] We're looking for items like clocks, smoke detectors and picture frames. [which TOTALLY fails to explain why you raided HOBBY PARTS SHOP. Braappp. Game Over. Thanks for playing!]
What good is a serial number that's not registered? None at all. It doesn't make sense in any context EXCEPT that we will be forced in the future to register our serial numbers. Creeping incrementalism at its finest.
It would have to be the writings of those wild-eyed radicals Jefferson, Franklin and Madison. When you read their hopes and fears for what they were building, you finally start to realize how far we've fallen and how badly we've been ripped off.
Try browsing the Federalist Papers sometime to get a taste of what "they" DO NOT want you to read.
Ok I'm sold!
Let's see, I have 100 users and a 10 user license for NT is $984.28. Totalling $9842.80. My Red Hat disk cost about $80.00.
Uhhh, never mind.
You have agreed to turn over all intellectual and physical property to ME(tm). Your clothes, your food, the very air you breathe belongs to ME(tm). Any attempts to move from the spot you are currently situated in will be considered destruction of MY(tm) property and legal action WILL be taken. As your bed or chair is also now my property, you can no longer just lie/sit there either. Lying in bed will be considered unlawful use of MY(tm) property, and legal action WILL be taken. Clicking any button on your computer at all will be considered a binding agreement to this EULA. I have your URL, expect to hear from MY(tm) lawyers shortly.
If people would just read a little Thomas Paine, John Locke, Benjamin Franklin or Thomas Jefferson, they would see that we (Americans) have the right (duty?) to own guns for ONE REASON. They understood too well that the only way to replace an entrenched autocracy was with the force of arms. I can fill this server with quotes from all 4 authors. This has NOT changed in any way that I can see. The power grabbers' arguments about "hunters and sportsmen" completely miss the point. By accident or design we can argue till the cows come home.. But if all we're left with is some .22 deer rifles, against the firepower of the US Army, its not even an interesting contest...
:)
Also (you got my dander up). The gun controls that HAVE been applied in this country are a joke. Badly drafted provisions give the police wide discretion in many areas to confiscate anything that looks like an "assault rifle". Many cities have banned handguns.. expect for (drum roll) city officials!
For some perspective here. Guns ARE dangerous! Freedom IS dangerous! It comes at a high price of responsibility that most Americans either can't or won't live up to. So either repeal the Second Amendment outright, or quit using gun control to further invade our tattered rights.
In closing, I do not own a gun. I have children in the house. My future prospects of gun ownership are my own business and not anyone else's.
Canter, defender of all those whacky rights, even the one that says the army can't sleep in my house
if you're interested in further research, try
http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/weird/wcf.html
I especially liked ""Review of the 'Cold Fusion' Effect", Edmund Storms, in JSE"
It would seem there is SOMETHING strange going on. We're talking about a LOT more than a 1% gain in heat/energy.
i love it when things get weird!
Our moral authority died with the natives at Wounded Knee. Why doesn't anyone talk about the "ethnic cleansing" in our own past?
It makes old Sloby look like a Mousketeer..
"The majority is always wrong, and even when they're right, they're right for the wrong reasons."
I STILL fail to see where one or two real world projects would not give you the same "breadth of information" that you could get from classes.
Yeah its rougher the first time for us self-taught programmers (I laugh now that i think back on my first Novell install). But I think we come up to speed faster because we obviously have "learned how to learn" by sweat and coffee, not spoon-fed to us by someone who "knows better". Real world experience is a harsh teacher, but for some of us, that's the way we learn.
I for one am a self-taught programmer who went back to college for a CS degree. I found it extremely tedious and unrewarding. I used to argue with my "C" teacher about the stupidity of having to put a "break;" statement after each "switch" just to make things interesting.
Anyhow, COBOL class taught me how to code good, tight reports, and i finally read "The Illiad". Otherwise it was a huge waste of time and money. Give me a manual and a week to tinker, and i'll do the semester's coursework from home.
I guess I can sum it up best by saying that all a degree proves is that you can PASS TESTS. No more, no less. It proves nothing about mastery of the material, creative problem solving, or that etherial "nose for understanding systems" that make for a truly productive programmer.
A rebuttal from the one of the unwashed and sheepskin-less code monkeys..
Canter