Slashdot Meets The Pinkerton Corp.

The chairman of the Pinkerton Corp. has agreed to meet with me Wednesday about the more than 1,000 objections posted last week on Slashdot to the company's WAVE America so-called school-safety program. The program, kicking off in North Carolina, offers schoolkids cash, caps and other incentives to turn in "depressed and dangerous" classmates to an anonymous toll-free number. Pinkerton brass say they have read each of the Slashdot comments and want to talk. (Read more about the meeting, and post any questions you have for Pinkerton here.)

The Chairman and lead Web developer of the Pinkerton Corporation have agreed to my request to fly to Charlotte, North Carolina on Wednesday and talk with company officials face-to-face abaout the objections many Slashdot readers have to the company's new "WAVE America" program.

WAVE America is a private, for-profit school-safety program gearing up in North Carolina -- with the enthusiastic support of the governor -- and going nationwide. It offers incentives (caps, T-shirts, cash) to students who call a toll-free number and anonymously turn in classmates they believe to be depressed or dangerous.

A company executive tells me that Pinkerton brass have already read all of the more than 1,000 posts about the program posted on Slashdot last week, and are considering some changes in WAVE America, including the cash and goodies. The company says it is also already revamping its vague criteria for identifying disturbed or dangerous kids, using specific symptoms recommended by psychiatric organizations.

I told the company official who called me that frankly, I hoped to convince Pinkerton to scrap this anonymous call-in program entirely. This kind of Draconian response to Columbine is unjustified, given that violence among children has been declining for years and that the horrific massacres are as random as they are rare. This kind of anonymous reporting encourages schookids to make judgments that therapists and counselors ought to be making, and could easily target the weird, geeky, unhappy and non-normal as well as the dangerous. It suggests the worst kind of Geek Profiling, in the process wantonly violating constitutional protections against unwarranted intrusions, search and seizure.

But I was surprised by the company's willingness to meet with me. I've been writing about variations on this issue for years. Large corporations are rarely -- in fact, never -- this responsive. Pinkerton executives said they were reading through all of the Slashdot posts, finding some of them compelling and convincing.

If Pinkerton eventually alters this program, it would mark a significant step in the use of the Net to provide individuals -- especially the young, who are historically voiceless in media as well as corporations -- with direct access to powerful entities that often aren't paying attention to anything but stock prices.

My expectations aren't high, but I said I valued a conversation over a confrontation and would keep an open mind if Pinkerton would. I also asked if I could post a message asking Slashdot readers whether they had specific questions about WAVE America -- one of a number of "school-safety" programs launched in the wake of the Columbine killings last year. So if you have any questions or opinions you'd like me to relay to the Pinkerton people I'll be meeting with, please post them here. They can read them directly on the site, or I can relay them. I'll report back on the meeting in a few days.

Comments

Re:pinkerdinks

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish to speak as someone who *does* have a serious Axis I mental disorder and 11 years of dealing with psychiatrists and therapists as a mental health consumer. I've been there, done that and *definitely* have something to say.

1. The thought of kids turning in kids scares me. Many mental illnesses are extremely difficult to diagnose even in a research hospital setting. Kids will not be able pick out those who have problems. The rate of successful identification will be no better than random chance.

All the false positives will clog the system.

2. This *will* be used as a tool by some to punish the different, the geeks, the shy. It will be used as a tool for BLACKMAIL.

3. Putting the power to send kids to "therapy" in the hands of school administrators sends chills up my spine. First, the quality of care will be low because of what schools pay. Second, in rural areas the professional expertise to diagnose and treat runs about a decade behind urban areas. Three, these decisions best belong in the hands of the parents because the kid will need all the support at home they can get in order to make any meaningful change. No support at home = no change.

This WaveAmerica program is a good intentioned train wreck. May God have mercy upon those caught up in it.

Pinkerton Problems

[Anonymous Coward]

1. 800 number callers are not anonymous. Even with caller-ID block, the owner of the 800 numbers call gets the caller's phone number (in most cases).
2. If my child were "turned in" by the Pinkerton System, I think I'd sue Pinkerton for violation of constitutional rights of my child. We have a fundamental right to confront our accusers in the US. The calling phone number could be discovered during the lawsuit. Thus it may not be so anonymous.
3. If Pinkerton were to put this into effect, a good protest would be to call the 800 number from as many pay phones as possible. Each call costs Pinterkton about $.25. Most large companies can get very very cheap rates on 800 numbers, but the pay phone surcharge is paid to the owner of the pay phone and probably can not be reduced(?).
4. Of course, Pinkerton could have the 800 numbers refuse calls from payphones. Then everyone would understand the calls were not anonymous.

Re:I have a report

[Anonymous Coward]

What's to prevent today's youth from acting in similar fashion? They're even going to get paid to turn in their peers. There is so much room for abuse of this program.

Another historical example is the Cultural Revolution in Communist China (1966-1976). Mao Zedong turned China's teenagers into "Red Guards" to safeguard his revolutionary ideals (since young people were supposed to be more idealistic).

What happened, according to Chinese I know who suffered through this nightmare, was that many Red Guards simply took advantage of the situation by going after any authority figure (such as teachers), and ended up turning on each other. For instance, if one guy took another guy's girlfriend, the latter would fabricate some political charge against the former, and gather a mob of fellow Red Guards to punish the "counter-revolutionary." So the first guy would retaliate by making his own charges and forming his own gang.

are we so intolerant?

[Anonymous Coward]

I ask a question.

And this makes me a troll.

Many other people have been kind enough to me to explain their points of view. You, however, merely try to pass me off as a troll.

Must I have an account to have a voice? Must I go along with the mainstream to be taken seriously?

And if this were truly a troll, you shouldn't have responded at all. But please don't pass me off just because you disagree with me and I'm not logged in.

Re:Question from a european point of view

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe the nazis pioneered the use of propaganda towards children. Sorry. It was the Catholic church. Has anyone heard of the Children's Crusade? What about Ignatious Loyola? (Give me a child for the first seven years of his life...)

Re:Accountability

[Anonymous Coward]

The irony in the T-shirt and Cap awards mentioned is that anybody wearing the T-shirt or Cap to school is instantly identified as a fink.

S/he will consistently get bloody noses in the schoolyard at recess from that point on.

Or is there some sort of "witness protection program" in place?

Friends from HS

[Anonymous Coward]

Hrrm. I dunno, it seemed like most of the actual "druggies" and such at my school were the more popular kids. You usually don't think of the unpopular geek kicking your ass... As for people who were blowing up the school, something like this would probably just set them off. Suicidals and such? Yeah, I could picture them turning up dead after being singled out. This is a great f*cking system... /sarchasm

One VERY important question

[Anonymous Coward]

To all you Slashdot readers who complain that this program is not worth it, I have only one question for you:

what if it saved your child's life?

Thank you.

Re:One VERY important question

[Anonymous Coward]

... at the expesnse of 10 or more innocents...

Re:One VERY important question

[lordbry]

and what if someone turned in a child, and that put so much stress on them that they decided to take their life?

What if it was your child?

Re:One VERY important question

[trelyle]

BTW, that quote is by Thomas Jefferson

Re:One VERY important question

[jejones]

At what cost? This sort of program lends itself to incredible abuse. Children whose only crime is not being in the right clique or not wearing fashionable clothing or not conforming to standards of beauty will have more to worry about than the usual harassment--they can get branded as possible killers, too, and all students will get that much better early indoctrination into proper behavior in a police state. How can you beat a deal like that?

Re:One VERY important question

[arcsNsparx]

The problem is, the US Constitution is the only thing that allows you to be able to consider saving your child from any kind of peril at all.

Most countries which lack a Constitution such as ours have been big on taking people's children off to be killed (in battle, or gas chambers) without recourse by anyone.
Incidentally, they also take everything else so that any remaining children starve to death.

The country already has people who are anxious to tear the Constitution apart. It is interesting that you think you would have any opportunity to rebuild it once it is destroyed. This method of thinking has enslaved many peoples in the past. Only when it is too late do they realize what was given up, and it is always the children who suffer.

Re:One VERY important question

[LaoK]

Actually, the quote originates with Benjamin "A Republic... if you can keep it." Franklin.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
--Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the governor, November 11, 1755
(later, motto of the Historical Society of Pennsylvania, c. 1759)

LaoK

Re:One VERY important question

[leroybrown]

and what if your child ruined my child's life?

Re:One VERY important question

[RottenDeadite]

Let me put it to you this way:

If I sucked so much at parenting that I needed a 1-800 number and a private organization to tell me that my child was depressed, I don't think I'd be predisposed to do anything about it.

A parent who's unaware of a mood so extreme that their kid's peers have to do something about it is probably both part of the problem and not the solution.

Now, for those children who don't have a caring parent to spot when they're depressed, this kind of service might be appropriate. But there's a few good reasons why it won't work, and those are already being discussed in other threads.

This AC's commment has irritated me so much, I'm going to stop typing before I say something really inflamatory.

***JUMP PAD ACTIVATION INITIATION START***
***TRANSPORT WHEN READY***

Re:One VERY important question

[DrgnDancer]

At the cost of ruining how many OTHER childeren's lives? Someone on /. used to use this as a .sig, and it is a great quote "Those who sacrifice freedom for saftey will loose both and deserve neither" Any student of history can tell you the truth of this statement.

Re:One VERY important question

[derrickh]

That's a loaded question.

What if we imprisioned every minority that makes less than $15,000 a year? The odds are pretty good that one of those millions of people would've killed someone's child. But does that make it right?

How about we sterilize every 17-24 yr old male that has watched a porno? I'm sure that we just saved someone's daughter from rape. But does that make it right?

Let's report every teen who feels left out, depressed, plays violent games, or wears black every day. We 'may' have stopped a school shooting, but at what cost?

D

Re:One VERY important question

[fasura]

It's time to worry. The nameless (well relatively) faceless corporations are out to brainwash children. Hell, I live in the UK and I'm worried they'll turn me in.

Re:One VERY important question

[Frank Sullivan]

As the parent of a very intelligent but socially standoffish child, i'm MUCH more worried about my child being falsely profiled as a danger to others.

Basic risk analysis tells us that we'll never know if such a program ever prevents a disaster. But i'd be opposed anyway, just as i'm opposed to imprisoning people because they might someday mug me. When the child acts in a dangerous manner, then by all means take action. But don't take action because the child MIGHT do something dangerous.
__
(oO)
/||\

Re:One VERY important question

[Samrobb]

The chances of it ruining my child's life, IMHO, is approximately a thousand times greater then the chances of it saving my child's life. Note the worst case here; it's not "status quo, nothing changes" - it's my child's life ruined at the first hint of any sort of unorthadox behavior.

Try explaining that to your nine year old when s/he's pulled out of school because someone immature itdiot with no real understanding of the consequences - say, another 9 year old - thought it would be really, really, really funny to tell someone s/he said they were going to blow up the school.

If you really want you kid to go to school someplace where only the strongest, most vicious, amoral kids manage to survive, feel free to find such a place; just don't expect me to send my children to school with your little criminals.

Re:One VERY important question

[JohnnyCannuk]

What if it TOOK your child's life?

Harrassment by peers is bad enough, but then to have your school, nay, some national investigative organization have your name in a database of "dangerous" kids, pestered by psycologists simply because your a bit different or you got in a fight with somebody. What do you think the result will be?

I can count on my hands the number of school murders committed by teenagers in all or North America. Now try counting the number of teen suicides.

Now which one do you think is a bigger problem in North America

Re:One VERY important question

[deranged unix nut]

What you really need to ask is what type of life do you want to provide for your child?

The type of death that you help prevent is not importiant if as a result your child's life is not worth living.

What if your child was forced to a private school after being contiously harrassed because they are different?

I knew several people in high school that were subjected to torment far worse than even steriotypical fraternity hazing at universities.
One person in my high school suffered a fractured skull when they were thrown into a bush (a common hazing ritual at the time) next to the building.

It was the attitude of the school and the administration that allowed these problems to happen. "Bushing" was given a blind eye at my school until a student's skull was fractured. It is the attitude and atmosphere that kills.

If you are worried about your child, be a friend to your child and other children. Get to know them, mentor them, and let them know that they are importiant. Open your eyes and see the children living in poverty, the latch-key children, and those with single parents that are struggling. They need someone to look up to.

Imagine going to work and being lectured all day (training sessions with no feedback), silently submitting proposals, having them marked and returned, feeling the stress of relationships with co-workers, but then having nobody to share your day with.

Now remember that most fathers spend an average of something like 15 seconds communicating with their children on an average day.
Put yourself in their shoes and think about how you would feel.

Re:One VERY important question

[MikeTheGreat]

Given that this post is by an Anonymous Coward, I think it's pretty clear that this post is a blatant troll.

Re:One VERY important question

[Jay Maynard]

[in answer to "what if your child ruins my child's life?":] You can repair that.

Can you? What makes you so sure?

I'm one of those who undoubtedly would have been reported to the folks running this program. In my days in high school, I was a full year younger than the next youngest person in my class. I was smaller, lighter, weaker, and slower than nearly all of my peers. I was also the one they turned to in computer math class (in the days when computer math was taught via teletypes talking to a mainframe halfway acros town) - but no other time. The rest of the time, I was bullied, teased, beaten, and ostracized. As it is, it took a year of psychotherapy and antidepressants, 20 years later, to begin to reverse the effects of my high school experience. I'm still getting over it. I'm now 39 years old, about to turn 40, and only in the past couple of years have I been anything approaching happy.

I know what the kids who commit school violence are going through. I was there myself. The first thought that popped into my head when I heard about Columbine was "That could have been me...".

Those kids don't need others turning them in anonymously, with or without reward, so they can be further singled out for ostracism and abuse at the hands of an uncaring society. They need HELP . They need to know that someone cares about them. They need understanding. They need acceptance.

I'm sorry you can't accept them, whether in the name of your kids' safety or otherwise. The simple truth, though, is that this is exactly the wrong approach. Reach out to these kids. Don't turn them in, or away, or out...

I wouldn't wish any parent to have to deal with having their kid murdered. The solution, as someone wrote in reply to Katz' original article, is to have schools be places no kid would dream of blowing up. If we can accomplish that, then no parent need have that fear again.
--

Re:One VERY important question

[mekkab]

Hey good point! And waht if it enabled your child to win a prize to go to the moon? And what if the sky was green? /sarcasm

It is not as simple as saying "look at the PONTENTIAL (not *proven*) benefits!" Fine, it may have the potential to save but it puts power in the hands of your childs peers, which is bad for two reasons. Despite the fact that some people say 'no one knows you better than your peers', in this case your peers don't even know themselves very well, so they are in no position to judge. A counsellor has not only gone through it when they were young, but also has probably analyzed it so much that they can tell when it's just something a child has to work out or if it's time to break out the emergency lithium syringe.

Secondly, competition runs rampant in high school between groups and individuals, so the 'motive' for abuse is everywhere. Also, we're talking about TEENAGERS, one of the most fickle and least trustworthy age groupings of all time!

Depression and confusion are an important part of growing up. It's hard to go through, but it is character building; there's something solidifying about "surviving" high school. I went through my phases, I was all over the map, and now I've settled into a well-balanced, emotionally stable (and devilishly handsome ;) individual... and being able to work out my depression and wierdness was just what I needed.

Now, had I been approached by "authority" figures who were operating on a hint from one of my classmates, and I was then put into some program or put on some medication, I would have harbored resentment and rage for years to come. What happens to a child in that situation? Would they get over it? Learn to hate the system and become criminals?

And when you get right down to it, I gotta give credit to Morrissey for asking "Is it wrong not to always feel glad?"
Depression happens...prozac is NOT always the answer.

Re:One VERY important question

[geekoid]

what if it ruined your childs life?

Welcome to the sandbox

[Anonymous Coward]

In this sandbox, it's inevitable that you're going to have to interact with the other people playing here. Some interactions will be good, some will be bad. Almost all will teach valuable lessons in social interaction- making and not making friends, getting along with others, and what gets you kicked out of the sandbox. At the get-go, you're given the rules: play nice, share, etc. When you do something wrong, either people don't play with you, they kick you out of the sandbox, or someone bigger comes along and corrects you.

But there's nobody moderating what you do (within the rules) in the sandbox. You can dig holes and sculpt landscape in overalls, build castles in a bathing suit, make a sand pile just to smash it like a volcano explodes, or plant rocks and rake the sand flat all by yourself- and if the others in the sandbox don't like what you're doing, don't think it's keen, they can't really do anything about it. They can't call someone bigger over to say that you shouldn't play by yourself, and they can't even make you have fun. (And let's face it, with some sand up your shorts, there's very little fun left to be had.)

The point of this poetic-licensed metaphor for the world is that in everyone's life, in school and outside and beyond, there will be a multitude of interactions. Few of them should be filtered, much less by other people because of their opinions. IF they are, it should not be through an insulating tool. Email is a nice insulator for being able to flame someone without being in their face for the retaliation. This proposed service is another good insulator, preventing social interaction between people playing in the sandbox. Hey, if someone is angry, depressed, etc., either try talking to them, or don't.

As for the rules of the sandbox, let me refer back to Play Nice. If it is someone's job to make sure everyone checks their weapons at the door, then if they have done that job, they can let the people in the sandbox interact without further intercession. If it's their job to take people out of the sandbox because they're fighting- well, let me reiterate that they had better have done their first job; then the players can be corrected.

But let me stress that it's not for the players in the sandbox to determine how the others should act- but to interact with them. If it's someone's job to make sure people play nice, then if they do it well, they shouldn't need to interfere further in the sandbox.

- cryptomancer

Oh, right, a question for Pinkerton..
Just what is your job, anyway? Are you sure?

Re:Welcome to the sandbox

[cryptomancer]

Blargh, it got made into an AC posting, probably due to the lag with which stuff from my end got to /.

Oops. If I'm lucky, the moderators will mark up this post, if it bears my name. :P cryptomancer

Re:Accountability

[Anonymous Coward]

I think anonymous tips that result in any direct government action are unconstitutional. For instance, a search warrant can't be issued based on an anonymous tip because its a violation of privacy and due process. Not only is it unconstitutional, this system is flawed to begin with. Allow me to demonstrate.


I think Jon Katz may be dangerous. He keeps harping on about the Columbine shooting like he has some morbid fascination with it. Please make sure he's not going to hurt anyone.

Cash please.



See, though, I posted anonymously, just like kids are supposed to. Somebody's rights are violated (regardless of whether or not the student really is dangerous), you have noone to give the money to but you still get money from the NC gov't? No thanks, buddy.

How do you give money to an anonymous source? This is a bad idea every way you look at it.

Asking the Next Question (tm)

[Anonymous Coward]

Since it is likely that Pinkerton will not scrap the program entirely, we should consider helping them edit/configure it in such a way that it takes account of factors which we all know are traditionally Not Considered.

In SF (that's science fiction to people like you and me), there is a saying - "Ask the next question."

We should help Pinkerton... heck, we should help anyone who will listen...to understand that just investigating depressed kids is only taking into account one level of a pattern that may have several ...nodes... linked together.

Item : Goth_Kid_bummed_out (more than normal for the subculture) walking around.

Ok, simple enough, and as far as a lot of foks will take it.

But...

Item : Goth_Kid_bummed_out.
Relationship1 : Star Jock --> Goth kid.
RelationshipType : harassment_geek, harassment_goth, harassment_gay
Freq: Daily

Ok, I put it in a pseudo-code, but you see the point. If they see a 'kid in trouble', they need to "ask the Next Question (tm)" and find out why. Is the kid under some kind of pattern of intimidation and/or harassment?

Going after the "kid in trouble" doesn't fix anything if he is only a symptom of a "trouble source" walking around, a kid who has taken on the task of making other people's lives hell.

Pardon me for using stereotypes in all this, but it's the same ones they use. Wanted to make the explanation fairly straightforward...

Re:pinkerdinks

[Anonymous Coward]

I would like to turn in all of my classmates, they are all physco's and out to get me!!!!

They all flock together like sheep, all making fun of me because I am different, AFTER I GET ALL THE MONEY FROM TURNING THEM IN I AM GOING TO KILL THEM ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FIRST HAIKU

[Anonymous Coward]

End the police state,
I feel victimised and shunned.
Typical JonKatz.

Thank you.

Re:OK...questions

[Anonymous Coward]

2.Why not offer a help line for depressed kids rather than a snitch line? Canada has had the Kids' Help Phone for about 10 years now and it is wildly popular and successful, as well as ANONYMOUS

Because there is NO PROFIT in it.

Besides, do you think corporate america wants a bunch of fat, wierd, depressed misfits in the job marketplace?

They need ALPHAS.

This is just the unspoken, well known, American Master Race(tm) finally cleaning up the few imperfections they missed in the last 20 years.

schools, and I feel kids today are just being groomed to consume and consume since they day they're able to point "I want that".

BUY. SLEEP. OBEY. CONFORM. SMILE.

Re:pinkerdinks

[Anonymous Coward]

we all know how reliable jr. high students can be...

a recent maryland case of jr. high students turning someone in

I'll spoil the ending, they made up the facts and framed the teacher.

TastesLikeHerringSeasonedChicken

..And All I Got Was This Lousy T-shirt.

[Anonymous Coward]

I imagine the most annoying weasel in high school wearing a
"I Fingered A Classmate For Pinkerton And All I Got Was This Lousy T-Shirt"
or a cool "Pinkerton Fink" cap only to spend the rest of his day stuffed into a locker head down.

At least there's a way to spot 'em. The "premiums" enable Darwinian selection.

-russ

Who are your peers?

[AndyS]

This doesn't totally apply to me, as I'm British, but....

I've been in the way of getting very angry over potentially minor things - most of my peers would not have a clue what was going on. Some of my very close friends would understand, because I would explain it to them.

Out of all the people in my school, maybe 2 or 3 would actually know how I was feeling and why - most of them would probably think I was just being weird or odd. Relying on people who barely know you to say "he's going to kill somebody because he's depressed and miserable" is really stupid - people can be depressed and miserable for all sorts of reasons - and they will, at most, tell their closest friends about it. Your average peer wouldn't get a look in.

A well regulated militia, my ass!

[jonr]

Well, I can hardly call the current state of affairs a "A well regulated militia"... Any idiot can walk into a store (or alley) and get a gun...
Jón

Re:A well regulated militia, my ass!

[penguinboy]

And how does anyone think that gun control laws are really going to affect the black market? Criminals don't care about laws. The only thing gun control laws will do is prevent law-abiding citizens from defending themselves.

Re:A well regulated militia, my ass!

[nowindowz]

I agree with you 100%, but I feel this also needs to be added. Guns are not the only projectile weopons, and it is very easy to build them. Every person is tought in school how to build to projectile weopons. When I was in high school me and on one of my friends built projectile devices(never once was it used as a weopon) just to see how fast or far we could get a projecttile to go. By the way I got a paintball to go 1/4 of a mile :) Also anything can be used as a weapon it is how you use it.

Re:TAKE YOUR BRITISH ASS HOME TO YOUR QUEEN

[Chris Andreasen]

also remember who bailed you and most of europe out of during ww2.
The Soviets.
Why is it that nearly every American seems to think that American soldiers were the sole reason that Germany lost the war? No one ever seems to remember that there was an eastern front, or that it was the Soviets that captured the Nazi Headquarters in Berlin, or that 20 million Russians died fighting in WWII (they took more casualties than every other country combined!). If Hitler had never attacked the Soviet Union and the USSR remained neutral, I doubt we ever could have even gotten our troops into Europe for any extensive period of time!
-Chris Andreasen

Weezer

[Luyseyal]

I can't believe no one has mentioned the Pinkerton Detective Agency and Weezer debacle. More information here.

Essentially, Pinkerton sued Weezer and Geffen Records over the title of their album Pinkerton as trademark infringement. Weezer won the case, but the fact that something so obviously non-detective-agency-related as their album (Pinkerton refers to a character in the Pucini opera Madame Butterfly) makes these guys look pretty bad... not to mention the judge who had the gall to issue a preliminary injunction.

-l

Re:wasn't this a tv movie?

[Oloryn]

Hitler was really interested in Odhinnism and Norse mythology in general, but only so far as it could be used as a tool to enslave people's minds.

That might explain why he so utterly failed to grok it. C.S. Lewis(who had a lifelong appreciation for Norse mythology and 'northernness') expounds on this(in part) in a little essay entitled "First and Second Things"(which can be found in the collection "God in the Dock", which I heartily recommend to any who appreciate Lewis):

It was, therefore, a bitter moment when the Nazis took over my treasure and made it part of their ideology. But now all is well. They have proved unable to digest it. They can retain it only by standing the story on its head and making one of the minor villians the hero.

Re:Safe and Secure Bribing Methodology

[Oloryn]

McElwaine? Is that you?

Re:Ounce of prevention

[Oloryn]

But what happens when the prevention is more destructive than the problem it is intended to prevent?

Politics as usual in the U.S.?

Re:you're confusing the issue

[Oloryn]

In other words, our society is once again looking for the "quick fix" answer to a generation of kids improperly raised and educated, then expected to act as morally capaple adults in a world where lying, cheating, extortion, and getting the most toys before you die is the name of the game.

Seems we always look for the quick fix. I'm becoming more and more convinced that if the U.S. has a characteristic fault that extends all across the political spectrum, it's the tendency to demand short term solutions without really considering whether those 'solutions' help or hurt in the long run.

Re:Say yes to school uniforms

[cpt kangarooski]

I beg to differ. Uniforms are great if you're an interchangable part. This is why the military uses them (aside from uniforms sometimes having evolved useful features - BDUs are pretty useful, for instance). This is why big business used to use them.

Me, I don't like the idea much. And as it turns out, our society is growing less and less uniform all the time. I wear silkscreened t-shirts and jeans to work. Even if I were in a more formal environment I could still choose from a number of different colors of shirts, slacks, jackets and let's not get into ties. Who the hell would have work a pink shirt fifty years ago?

I say let 'em wear anything that you can wear on the street. T-Shirts are not terribly distracting unless you're the only person who's got one.

Re:Offtopic Re:A well regulated militia, my ass!

[cpt kangarooski]

A well regulated militia is certainly a good thing.

But the 2nd amendment doesn't let anyone's right to keep and bear arms be infringed whether you're in a militia or not. They're two seperate clauses, and the second isn't dependent on the first.

It doesn't hurt that the unorganized militia (which was used quite a bit in the Revolutionary War anyway, alongside organized militamen and the ocassional professional soldier) encompasses pretty much everyone though.

(cpt - doesn't own a gun, but strongly opposes infringement upon your right to own a gun)

Re:It must not happen here

[Ravenwing]

It is in fact a good exercise to think about how you would feel if this program were being used in the workplace instead of schools. Would you really want to add this kind of anonymous informing to an already furious struggle for status? Can you imagine it *not* being abused to eliminate political enemies?

Actually, I experienced something like this. A large co-worker with a known violent temper had crippled a co-worker in the middle of a meeting (grabbed her by the wrist so hard it messed up the nerves). Some of us were later called to testify in court and the attacker called HR on one of us, claiming that "he talks about guns and going postal and I'm afraid!"

Well, for Christ's sake, we're sysadmins! We always talk about going postal, have been for the last five years we've all been working together, duh! And everyone knew the gun nuts were gun nuts (in a healthy way) - it's not like they were suddenly making furtive gun deals in the parking lot for illegal weapons.

So, suddenly, my friend was called onto the carpet for behavior that all of us had exhibited frequently for years. And yes, somewhere, there's a report in HR about it, even though HR and my friend's manager both admitted that it was bullshit but they still had to followup on it officially.

What happened to the guy who assaulted a co-worker in the middle of a meeting? He was found guilty in a court of law, but not one thing happened to him at work! I was much more afraid of working late when he was around than when my "postal gun-toting" friend was. I was nervous whenever I had to deal with him and I refused to be alone in a room with him. I wanted witnesses, at least!

Ray Bradbury

[Casca]

Doesn't this story just smack of something Ray Bradbury might have written? It reminds me of one of the television episodes I saw years ago about a child that was given an IQ test, and then when the results were too high he was murdered. This stuff is scary as hell, and I have been out of high school for years.

Monkey Wrench Time

[Erik]

Probably not the most powerful of effects, but in my mind the best bet would be to kill the signal to noise ratio for these people. Call them up, and tell them about the most well adjusted person in your school. Make them go through the hassle of checking it out.

Even better, arrange some people who are in class together, and actively mess with these people. Get some people to say this kind of thing about one person, and then that person shows them that it's all not true. I guess it'd kind of be discrediting their source of information. I mean, I was in high school a couple years ago, we would have had GREAT fun with something like this. ;-)

Erik

Q: For Pinkerton: Removal of Records.

[yorick]

As far as I know, in every state, records of children are sealed when the reach adulthood and those records are not accessible except under the most extreme circumstances. Nowhere on the entire waveamerica site do you inform potential callers about how long you will retain information, about who specifically that information will be limited to. More profoundly, no promise is made that you will not use that information for profit: selling it to potential employers, colleges, psychiatric counselors, etc.

Second: It is not enough to limit descriptions of symptom to known psychiatric symptoms. The first thing in the DSM-IV is a warning against amateurs making diagnosis based on those symptoms.

Third: Imagine a scenario where a teacher or counselor _was_ informed about a potential problem via your WAVE line and that student then committed a crime against another student. If the administrator in their better judgement had decided against evaluations, therapy, or whatever, they would be in for a political thrashing. For fear of this, a call from your WAVE line is essentially a mandate from a one student to subject another intense scrutiny by counselors, administrators, and parents. Think about this.

Re:Term has worked well..

[Stargazer]

I agree that the term should not be used in this meeting, but perhaps for different reasons than zztzed.

The biggest gripe I have about it is the fact that it makes the implication that all we are concerned about is discrimination against geeks. This is not the case, and our diction should reflect that fact.

Obviously, geeks suffer tremendously from such jumpy conclusions. Even if geeks suffer the most from them, geeks are not the only ones, though, and our concern ought to be with misjudgment of anyone -- be them geek or jock. (On a side note, it will also probably give your arguments more weight, since it seems less likely that you are fighting strictly for the community you happen to be representing.)

Don't use the term.

-- Brett Smith

Re:you're confusing the issue

[Nicolas MONNET]

And what if the saved kid becomes the next Jerry Falwell?

Re:Parent notification and general purpose of WAVE

[unitron]

So how about when the problem with the kid *is* the parents and they react to hearing about him/her being reported with an increase in abuse, perhaps even a *final* act of abuse?

Re:Pinkerton?

[unitron]

But before they died, they hired like-minded people who hired like-minded people who...

Re:I have a report

[unitron]

"...get money for not doing something."
I thought that was farm subsidies :-)

Re:Thunk!

[unitron]

"They actually read the comments on /.?!!"
Of course, where better to conduct surveillance of the impending geek threat?

Re:Questions for Pinkerton

[unitron]

Dear Moderator:
See Butterfly, Madame

Speaking of South Carolina

[unitron]

Jon, Charlotte is really part of South Carolina, they just keep drawing the maps wrong.:-)

Re:Grammar and Psycological Warfare

[unitron]

Unfortunately, poor grammar on a site aimed at *students* probably won't be the "set back" it really should.

Re:Watch out, Katz

[unitron]

Nah, we've just got him on our "d*mnyankees" list :-)

I could have had a lot of fun with this

[lrc]

It would have been great fun turning in kids who annoyed me. Since I was one of the outcasts who
got together to have huge waterfights and play glorified capture the flag, I'm sure I would have
been turned in. Heck, we spent time at school discussing military tactics. Of course I would have turned around and sued Pinkerton for damages to my reputation, self esteem and all of that stuff. I probably could have bought a car and gone to an ivy league school with the settlement.

=====

How many times are mass murderers described as "just like everyone else". I guess that's a good
profile of a psycho, just lock up everyone who is
"just like everyone else", or is "pretty quiet".

Even a near-perfect test would be wrong!

[Chris Burke]

This sounds like something that we studied in probability class last semester.

Let's say that you have a set of criterion that students can use to decide who to call in. Let's say this set of criterion is really good, which I'll quantify by saying:

It has a Sensitivity of 90%, meaning that a potentially dangerous student will meet the criterion 90% of the time - P(T|D)=90%. It has a Specificity of 99.95%, meaning that a student who is _not_ a threat to anyone will _not_ meet the criterion 99.95% of the time - P(!T|!D)=99.95%

Well, this sounds good until you calculate P(D|T) - the probability that someone who meets the criterion is potentially dangerous. This turns out to be ridiculously low. If we assume that the number of dangerous students is 1/25000 -- which is ridiculously high, but for the sake of argument I'll use it -- then P(D|T) is only 6.7%! Of all the students called in, only 6.7% will be dangerous. Which means that 92.3% of the time you will be harassing innocent people.

My question for Pinkerton is this: Even if you were convinced you could create a test with the high specificity and sensitivity I stated, how do you respond to the fact that almost everyone that would be called in would be harmless students? No matter the test you use, you will be will be wrongfully branding people as dangerous.

Re:The Wave

[ceo]

I saw it too, and the "movement" was indeed called "The Wave". Only thing I can find about it is the IMDB entry, though.

I suppose it could be a coincidence... :-)

Re:Say yes to school uniforms

[AArthur]

I am not sure I can agree with that. Certainly their are certian limits, but freedom of express, and a liberal and open enviroment is essential for education of America's future thinkers and workers.

Studies show that if a worker is comfortable, they will be more productive. For me that means wearing comfortable tshirt and twil pants. For others they prefer jeans or shorts (in the Spring/Fall). Being different is cool, in it's own sense.

Maybe it's because I go to a public school in rurual Greenville, NY (30 miles South West of Albany, on Route 32), I don't see this kind of stuff that demands nazi-like strict policy, or maybe it's just the general librartism of this particular public school.

Re:KISS

[AArthur]

Part of my high school "career" dealt specifically with overcoming people like that - they have nothing constructive to say.

These kind of people are common in most societies, and well there lives relect it, very ordinary very standard (and "America like".)

"Anyway, I'm 20 now and I had to graduate with a GED - high school towards the end was going straight to hell... 2 arrests in as many weeks, public protests, leafleting of the building.. this was in a conservative town of 10k out in Wisconsin.. middle-class bible-loving people."

I have never seen anything like that before. Although I do remember years ago (when I was younger) some really major walkouts and other student protests took place (frequently backed by Teachers and Parents), making school much more libral in policy, and well less enforcing of policies.

"The police were of similar composition - they were tired of the whole debatacle.."

Well around here it seems the police (there is a police station in Greenville, made up of mostly under guys -- I have feeling this is more of training kind of thing then anything else) are pretty understanding -- although there have been some arrests, most of them are for really sensible reasons -- dwi, speeding excessively, and some other really bad stuff.

"t's a truly sad state of affairs.. but in a democracy people often forget that the mob makes the rules; the majority can often have the wrong opinion of what needs to be done. The result is a vicious circle that eats away at itself.. and it's citizens."

Yes and no. Democratcy has it weak points, but it's one of the better goverments currently in power today. While it's true that the mob often makes the rule -- the mob is the majority of people -- the majority that will be effected by the majority of the laws. You can't expect to always get your way, as you probably have heard when your younger -- things have to be done in the public interest.

All and all, everytime I go to a town meeting, visit the NY capitol, I see goverment working pretty much in the right way. Their may be flaws -- and the best thing to do, is educate the public, get involved in goverment, and fix it.

Pratically speaking, with exceptions, I enjoy being an American. Yes at times it can be fustrating when you are limited in public interest, but that's the way it has to be.

Re:Kids and Guns

[AArthur]

These people train their children in proper gun handling at an early age. They are generally gifted with a gun, as well, typically when the parents or guardians determine that they have demonstrated by their behavior that they are responsible to handle it, or at the first birthday thereafter. This may happen as early as age 12 (though the gun will be stored safely, and the child will lose access to it if he demonstrates irresponsibility later).

Gun safety is an essential issue, many people are missing. Many childern are missing out on learning to use guns safely, and sportman like, therefore causing problems. Ensuring that all kids get a few hours of real (ie. taking the kid to a proper shooting range and praticing) gun safety and training, would go a long ways.

The fact is the majority of gun deaths/wounds (excluding wars) are accidental -- almost always due to inproper safety procedures. If people were more knowledgable about these safety procedures, the numbers would be greatly reduced.

And even those numbers, are much lower then the rate you see with other accidents -- almost everyday on the news you hear about serious car or other motor vechical accidents, fendor-benders are much more common then accidental gun shootings.

"The criminal and violent activity of children who have been trained with guns by responsible adults has been studied, and compared with that of those who have not been so trained."

That is true. You see the same thing with automobiles all the time -- more experienced drivers rarely get into accidents, the majority of accidents are caused by people under 25, or those under the influence of drugs (such as beer).

"While the kids not trained with guns are out selling drugs, mugging, and robbing liquor stores, the kids trained with guns are out after curfew, or smoking in the boy's room. Even when kids trained with guns become involved with local youth gangs or commit assaults (which they do much less frequently than those not so trained), there is a conspicuous difference: They don't use a gun in the assault."

While since I don't have experience with any of the above I can't really comment, although I haven't seen any proof of trained gun users being more likely to kill.

who said this?

[gelfling]

I think it was Jean duc DuPlessis, Cardinal Richelieu. One Machiavellian bastard if there ever was one.

Here are the criteria they use; from their website

[gelfling]

1 Hits or bullies others.
2 Expresses uncontrolled anger.
3 Has unlawful possession and use of firearms.
4 Displays intense intolerance or prejudice.
5 Has excessive feelings of isolation and/or
rejection.
6 Conveys violence in writings and/or drawings.
8
7 Uses drugs or alcohol on campus.
8 Makes threats.
9 Suddenly has bad grades or little interest in
school.
10 Is easily angered by minor things.

Kind of broad - eh?

In a nation based on liberty and freedom why...

[choke]

When a tragedy occurs and people are woken up to realize that the world is not as safe as they had presumed it would be, they are willing to give control to anyone at all who promises safety. This is how hitler catapulted into power, and this is how people who are normally stupid and harmless empower other people who are both cunning and exceedingly dangerous.

The concept of someone putting a poster which offers money for the anonymous reporting of suspicious behaviour on the part of others is both reprehensible and goes flatly against the principles of the constitution. The rights of the accuser DO NOT outweigh the rights of the accused. This is how justice is maintained. This is how the liberty and freedom of the innocent individual is maintained.

The most corrupt and villainous societies in the world were marked with exactly this sort of social venom. Anonymous denunciation is the most common tool employed by the worst and most oppressive regimes ever to appear on the earth.

In a nation where freedom of speech and liberty are supposedly cherished, it's odd that our institutions of learning are modelled after fascist dictatorships. What sort of people are we trying to educate?

Anonymous Denunciation

[choke]

The concept of anonymous denunciation is a tool that's been widely put to use by the most oppressive regimes in the world.

I am just utterly flabbergasted that someone is willing to even consider this as a sane and sensible thing.

When I was in high school, I was largely considered weird and unpopular. I assure you there were _plenty_ of people amonst the beautiful loser set who would have jumped at the opportunity to turn me in to this sort of bullshit. I was notorious for being hostile to the established 'jocks and frocks' set, and acted on my resentment of the worship of conformity.

My question is, do you really want to give these people yet another tool to use against folks who choose not to follow their mob rule?

I was an outsider, always will be an outsider.

The once geeky bookworm computer nerd in black is now a high paid computer consultant computer nerd bookworm. These people who once oppressed me in highschool are still back where I left them in the midwest, struggling along in crappy jobs doing the same dumb unremarkable stuff they did in highschool.

Do you really want to hammer down the nails that stick out? Did it never occur to you that your artists, inventors, leaders and writers will come from this crop of 'alienated people?'

I have a lot more rude things to say, but I'll keep them to myself. This sort of program is the worst evil I could imagine inflicting on the people I am most fond of - the folks who dare to be different.

Re:America: Long tradition of cherished freedom.

[fatboy]

Come on guys! We have something like 20 hand gun deaths in the UK per year. When will you realise that Guns do kill people, and they make killing people easy. Well...

1) My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.

2) My gun is a very good gun. It kills people dead. That is what it was designed to do.

3) Killing someone is not murder. Some people think that ALL violence is bad, this is not so. There are evil people that do evil things and the police are NOT YOUR PERSONAL BODYGUARDS!

4) When a whole group of people have there freedoms taken away, they more than likely have been disarmed. (See South Africa, Kosovo, etc)

if only it was registered members of the NRA that got shot every time I'd be a little happier.

Most NRA members are better shots than most street thugs, but that is beside the point. Why would you wish death on your political enemies? I guess you can't beat them on the ideological battlefield.

Re:Accountability

[Doctor_D]

If the system is anonymous, then it seems that anyone could malign a minor with impunity, with almost certianty as to their safety in doing so. What mechanisms would be in place to ensure that the system does not turn into a way to earn money via libel?

If that is truely the case, and you are anonymous, I can see major abuse in the system, and kids using this as another way to torment those students who aren't a part of the "in crowd." Pretty much from K to 12 I kept to myself and didn't deal much with my peers. In fact, I was grateful to make it to college and get away from those people. My life has been much better since, and I have my cadre of geek friends.

Had this system been in place back when I was in High School and where anyone can call in and say that I was depressed or whatever, I know that this would scar me for life. Let alone the thoughts of revenge would have been running through my mind more. Even with the immense amount of shit I was given on a daily basis back then, at least I could take comfort that they were only words from stupid people, and easily dismissed. If this system was in place, being tramutized by profiling and counseling that I didn't need, I would have honestly considered harsher methods of revenge. It wouldn't be something that I could have easily shrugged off. And then the media would have something else to report on, then the system would be tightened and then the spiral continues. *sigh*

Re:KISS

[Signal 11]

I have never seen anything like that before.

I have. I did some research. It's frighteningly common and there have been books published on it. Research out the Salem witch hunts some time - a small tightly knit community developed a few deviants in the group.. and the whole town came unglued. It's a common theme.. in any small group of people if somebody isn't normalized to that group the whole fabric of things come undone.

It is important

[JonKatz]

..but there is no evidence that kids are in the kind of danger that warrant this kind of paranoia and loss of freedom and dignity. The Center on Juvenile and Criminal Justice confirms what the FBI and Justice Department have been reporting for years -- violence among kids is way down. This is called the Saudi Arabian theory of justice. There, they cut people's hands off for stealing. In democracies, we prefer different remedies. You could also make kids absolutely safe by jailing everybody somebody thought could conceivably be dangerous. The question is, do you want that kind of a trade off.

Re:It is important

[sredding]

Don't take Jon's word for it. Read the report yourself:

Juvenile Offenders and Victims: 1999 National Report

Re:It is important

[sredding]

Oops... correct URL: http://www.ncjrs.org/ht ml/ojjdp/nationalreport99/index.html

Re:Publicity Stunt

[JonKatz]

This is a good caution..This may be a publicity stunt, and I'll be especially sensitive to that. I'm sure the bad publicity is why they're doing this, but I'm hopeful they mean it when they say they want to talk. We'll see.

Great post..

[JonKatz]

This is the heart of it, chromatic..Lots of pols and other people invoking child welfare while exploding the issue of child safety..a political stunt for years. Thanks for this..I will read this one aloud to the CEO.

How about simply not messing with people's heads?

[leonbrooks]

It's not as if the States is short of fear, uncertainty and doubt.

The proposed measures ring of the Third Reich; they're also the exact same methods used by the Holy Office of the Inquisition - Torquemada would be pleased to see his old methods still in use - and they'll trash the broken remains of that self-respect which still survives in non-mob-mentality students.

If students weren't crowded, essentially against their wills, into ever more packed schools and away from family and in many cases friends, in other words away from all of our normal social development agents, far fewer people would "go off." Adding "Pinkerton Pressure" and more peer back-stabbing to the social mix is beyond stupid.

There are moves afoot to extend school hours in the name of reducing street crime - putting out the fire with gasoline.

I believe that the best answer is to leave children in their families for longer, and instead of teaching them a mixture of mostly useless rote material and vague, fuzzy, new-age group emoting techniques, first put them in an environment where they can learn how to figure things out for themselves.

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day; teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime. And the corollaries:

* teach a man to think and figure things out, feed/house/clothe him and many others for a life time;

* force-feed a man fish for ten to twelve years and wonder why he grows up hating fish...?

And finally, I bet Pinkerton aren't exactly crying all the way to the bank over this...

Re:I have a report

[Zen]

Hmmmm.... I was always the guy that everyone knew in High School. Make that weird guy. I sold drugs to friends (Aspirin, tylenol, cough suppresents, etc, all that good illegal lookalike stuff). I carried a pocket knife every day (I'm a Boy Scout), and I had another one hanging off my book bag for all to see (my Mom was always worried that i'd get suspended for that one) I played poker for $$ with my Math teacher. I usually lost, and we kept a tab. When he retired I owed him about $150, but he never collected. So I guess it wasn't real gambling, right? I was a band nerd (first chair trumpet, woohoo!!!), and band kids basically got the run of the school with the security people. Whever we got stopped, we just said the band director had us running errands for him. Oh, and I used to sign my own hall passes (and sell them to friends). My band director's signature was his initials. Pretty easy. I would write myself a pass, get out of class, and then pose as a student helper & 'deliver' my passes to friends that were in class. Mmmmm.... 4th period McDonald's runs. Yummy.

I also got caught being in the wrong class once. I got out of school early (band perks again, no last period), and had to wait around for a friend. So I went to class with him. I told the teacher that I was in the honors section, and was kicked out & told to go to the regular one. I found out the next day that she had asked at the office about me (fake name), and since I didn't exist, a security guy was going to be at the class that day to 'grab' me. Man! You get in trouble for the strangest things in High School.

So, I think I painted a decent picture of myself as a weirdo, a knife wielding maniac, and definitely abnormal, whatever that is. So should I turn myself in? Did I mention that I'm one of the nicest guys you'll ever have the pleasure not to meet? :) Damn profiling. It never works.

I Have a Question

[Rotten]

Pinkerton People:
Why, instead of prosecuting people on the sole basis that they are "different", attract those students using your "gifts & rewards" money to bring them talks, workshops and activities of their like?
I go back in time, and I fell school would be much more interesting if I could attend to a "Java Workshop" instead of a "Football Championship".

Sounds like Hitler's Youth to me...

[SirTreveyan]

Train our kids to turn in their freinds/family?? while they are young. Tell our kids it is to help their freinds/family. Get them used to doing this. Where is it going to stop??? I'll tell where...with the establishment of groups similiar to East Germany's Stazi or the old Soviet KGB. Why give our government a ready made tool? Why condition our children to accept a way of life that we find abhorrent

This country is rapidly becoming a POLICE STATE. It is virtually that way now. The freedoms for which our forefathers fought and died are being taken away. Look around you!!! Every day a freedom is being taken away by federal or state governments for the purpose of "protecting" someone/group/special interest.

Instead of schools teaching our kids to be stoolies how about teaching them what our forefathers REALLY MEANT in the Declaration of Independance, The Constitution of the United States, and in the Bill of Rights. Teach our kids how the Democrats and Republicans are trading away THEIR rights for votes. Maybe then todays youth will find direction to their lives.

Re:Blown away...

[jridley]

Hell, if it's an 800 number, you don't even need the roll of quarters. Can't you make 800 calls from pay phones? Sure you can, that's how the 1-800-COLLECT services work. Every time you walk by a payphone, call the number. Even if you just hang up, it costs them $$. NOTE: I would *NEVER* suggest actually doing this. Just for the record. Yeah.

Would you wear their shirt...

[jridley]

What's going to happen to a kid wearing a "WAVE America" T Shirt?
It seems to me that once kids figure out that this means "I ratted someone out for this lousy T-Shirt" the guy is going to have a tough time getting to school and home again every day without getting the crap beat out of him.

QUESTION for Pinkertons:
What assurances will be in place to guarantee that, should a reported student be found to be innocent of being "different", that any and all record of them even being reported or investigated will be permanently and completely stricken from their record?

I just got an anonymous tip

[ch-chuck]

that Pinkerton is having sevear cash flow problems and are so desperate to keep stockholders happy that they are willing to try anything and that this is really a scheme to capitalize on school shootings to kidnap people for their Internet child pornography ring.

Is the WAVE name a coincidence?

[NYC]

Is there any link to the name of the program and the name of the afternoon-special movie WAVE?

--Ivan, weenie NT4 user: bite me!

Re:Is the WAVE name a coincidence?

[Rantage]

Yes Jon, bring that movie to their attention. I'd love to hear about their reaction!
Online gaming for motivated, sportsmanlike players: www.steelmaelstrom.org.

F E A R ! ! !

[ScooterComputer]

Over the past several months (really since the millenium craze took hold, I guess) I have begun to notice a very disheartening shift in the posting at Slashdot. At one time, anyone agreeing with WAVE or gun control or any other forms of overt fascism would have been flamed unmercifully. But not in the present...

We live in the United States of America, a country based in the rights of citizens, and yet we are allowing a most greivous threat to be mounted against the ideals that this very country is built upon... and for what? Fear. Pure and simple. Fear, the cornerstone of fascism. Except this time around, we have only OURSELVES to blame -- there is no dictator or fringe party. All this is occuring in the hearts and minds of "good" people who are afraid.

Personally I think that we, as a society, have become so entrentched in the concept of being "taken care of" by the government, that we are now helpless in the face of fear. We are unable to make sound judgements and tremble in mistrust of our fellow Americans. Somebody must help us.

Well, I, right here and right now, willfully and knowingly provide that I require no help... I believe in the rights of our citizens, and trust in their judgements. I also believe that no citizen -- no informed, intelligent, and patriotic citizen -- can give resonable tolerance to WAVE, or any of the other actions that persons living within this country, calling themselves citizens, have profered to "help" us, conceived in humilation, harassment, and suppression of freedoms. No, these persons are not citizens, although they may believe themselves to be; they do not put forth the thought or bravery needed to hold up the moniker "American".
The Constitution of this land does not need altered; in fact, what is needed is for it to be followed.

Everyone should see that film.

[VValdo]

I saw it in grade school. I guess I was 10 when it came out. It was fantastic. I wonder if you can get it on video or something. You can read about it here.

Their motto was "STRENGTH THROUGH DISCIPLINE! STRENGTH THROUGH COMMUNITY, STRENGTH THROUGH ACTION!"

Terribly ironic that this group calls itself the WAVE, and they're using similar concepts.

I really can't recommend it enough-- it's so perfectly appropriate for this discussion.

W
-------------------

More on The Wave (links)

[VValdo]

here is the true story it was based on and a summary (and another of the book.

The "Wave" i just learned was a reference to the "third wave", or the third reich.
-------------------

just show up.

[einstein]

well, Jon, lets just hope you catch your plane. don't want to have you miss it like you did for Geek Pride :)

Naming WAVE

[pjones]

Were the Pinkies or their PR firm familiar with Ron Jones' famous classroom experience in fascism as cronicled in his book "No Substitute for Madness," in the 1981 tv-movie "The Wave" or the novelization by Todd Strasser? Aren't they concerned that their program evokes memories of many of the aspects of that experience? Are they aware that "the Wave" is taught in many classrooms nationally and internationally?

Re:My questions for Pinkerton Inc.

[dduck]

Hmmm. Im some ways I would have prefered clear guidelines in this department. I was certaintly singled out by school officials as a "troublemaker", without even having the benefit of being able to raise heck about some stupid - but official and public - set of rules.

Yes, it's partly a joke. But only partly - I'm still quite bitter about this, even though I got my revenge when they foolishly honored the tradition of leaving the microphone open for unscheduled speeches on dimission day :D That was truly a golden moment!

WAVE:goodbye to freedoms.

[FireReaper]

Hey all,

I think others have noticed this already,but
to reward people to turn in people who might be
your friends and family or classmates whom you
think are a possible threat... it sounds so much
like the history we were taught in our social
sciences class and war documentaries about other
cultures... like that of the KGB and their secret
police. Their reward system for turning in people
who you thought were a threat to the way of life;
be it your brothers, sisters, mother or father.

It sounds alot like some of the things I've read
about the Nazi's. Conform to the perfect form and
be pure. Anything else is crud and should be
thrown out or burned out.

It sounds like military school and the various
camps where non-conformity is seen as a threat
to the unit as a whole. You are hazed or punished
if you are different and you are rewarded for
punishing those who are different.

Yes, I can see this will help our nation of youths
find a better way. I can see how this will help
reduce violence in school and in the lives of
people as a whole. Why yes, reward violence and
distrust. Punish honesty and individuality. That's
the ticket.

Yes, let's make military styled training mandatory
and let's assume everyone likes that kind of
treatment. I mean.. God knows you must be an
anti-American commie if you aren't with the
program!

But.. oh wait. That's right, don't forget to turn
in your friends who might be suspicious. I mean..
if you don't, your friend might turn you in for
the reward!! I mean... what's more important?
Friendship and close ties or getting rewarded and
escape from punishment?

Yes, I can see that that is the best way society
should function. Trust, honesty, ideals, invididuality,
love, and compassion are all terms whose time has
come and gone. Out with the old and weak and in
with the new.

If you believe that's the way things should be,
then WAVE is for you.

Personally, I like my freedoms and like being able
to trust my friends, co-workers, classmates, etc.
I don't like having to look over my shoulder to
check to see if I'm being followed or if the girl
I talk to about a new art exhibit coming up will
turn me in for enjoying classical art and music.

What's the point of living in a democratic and
free nation when you have to watch what you say
and what you do around everyone for fear they will
turn you in to the authorities for being a possible
trouble case?

Why not just move to a fascist country with no
civil liberties then? Why not just tear up the
consitution now and be done with it?

We're human beings for crying out loud. We're not
a herd of cows who happily and stupidly head out
to be slaughtered, are we?

Are we?

If you're a student and a minor, stand up against
this crap. Hundreds of thousands of American
soldiers didn't die so you could live under a
police state. People died for your freedoms and
rights. Don't let it go so easily.

If you're an adult, why the hell are you just
sitting there going "oh... that sucks"?? Why
aren't you doing what the less-than-knowledgable
and panicky parents are doing? Why aren't you
going out and contacting your congressman and
congresswoman and senators and writing letters?

Email them. Write snail mail to them. Contact them
so they KNOW people aren't asking for this.

Because if you don't, then you can just wave
goodbye to your freedoms.

That's all I gotta say.


- Wing
- Reap the fires of the soul.
- Harvest the passion of life.

Signal to Noise?

[TBC]

I just had a thought. What's going to happen when so many kids are turned in. Will this program be seen as just kids getting back at one-another or will it be trumpeted in the media as just how screwed up our kids are, and the need for more controls since xx% of kids are being turned in.

This is not the first time

[Tycho]

Pinkerton...
Pinkerton...

Where have I heard that name before. Oh yeah they were famous in the early part of the twentieth century for strike breaking and union busting. They were probably also responsible for several riots. Well I guess this is just a continuation of the great Pinkerton legacy.

Question

[Lumpy]

My wife works for/with an organization that specifically fights groups/companies like this. The organization is the Association for Children's mental health. On EVERY occasion My wife has to go into a court and get a judge to force the schools,insurance companies,government to give the child/young teen/teen what help they need. She is 100% successful in every case but not before some group has already labelled this youngster as a "trouble maker" or "dangerous" and has caused this child and their family ir-repairable damage in money and sanity. And the scary part is that 99% of the time these kids would be O.K. in school if they were treated like humans, if the people tormenting them to the edge were actually controlled, and schools were interested in helping kids succeed instead of just housing them as "cheap daycare".

What is your company's goals?? are you going to help these kids by fighting for them? getting them the mental healthcare they need? Point out to the school officials that their football team thugs are the cause because they physically torture this teen? and how about publically humiliating the school officials/ insurance companies/ government officials that refuse to help these kids?
Or is your program just like we expect, a "hitler youth program" crafted to make school officials happy and pay you money.

I suggest that your company contact the Association for childrens mential health in Lansing michigan for information on how to do a service to the community, and to help those that are actually troubled.

(Note to the incoming flames... if you want to kill someone, then you are mentally ill. No question about it. and you have NO argument against that statement)

What to do with the WAVE of data that will come in

[beryl]

Jon,
One of the aspects of this that I haven't seen brought up yet is what happens after the data is collected? What next? Assuming for the sake of argument that Pinkerton's system had the desired effect of identifying disturbed teenagers, what are they going to do about them? In theory, their system is going to identify lots of kids here, and the support networks that schools have in place are strained to the point of bursting as it is. Is Pinkerton going to provide more therapists and school counselors? Or are they going to leave that to the state?

Re:not a fair comparison

[beryl]

Yes. You are saying that you don't care if the solution is a good one. As long as it works for some, might as well go with it. Who cares if it causes more harm than good? If just one child (tm) is saved, then any abuse can be justified. That is what you are saying.

Apathy on all sides

[InfiniterX]

I've got a few ideas here I'd like to toss around:

First, setting all issues on whether or not WAVE or programs like it are moral or right, why is our nations' youth so incredibly apathetic that they refuse to take any action until they're bribed with free T-shirts, money, etc? As another post here had said, in Europe people would already have taken to the streets in protest by now.

Also, exactly what can we do about our schools, where the administrators pretend to care about students' well-being, but then let in these for-profit groups to alienate and harm their own students?

For one thing, shouldn't schools handle this sort of stuff internally, rather than awarding some sort of "thought-police" contract to some outside company? Having Pepsi ads in school hallways (although this is questionable as well) is one thing, but allowing an outside company to do this is definitely of questionable ethics.

"depressed and dangerous" ?? what about the ...

[bog]

what about the "joyfully, giggling lunatics?", the "merry murdering, child molesters?".

What if the student is an adult.

[xrayspx]

What if for instance one of the people to be ratted out is over 18, and protected by all the same rights as his parents. Assuming the worst (for the program), nothing is wrong, he's just weird, but smart enough to sue everyone involved for every nickel they've ever, or will ever, make? Will an age limit of 17 years be imposed on the program just to avoid lawsuits? And if so, does that make 18 year old High School seniors (which there are plenty of) any less of a threat?

I would have been the first kid anyone turned in in highschool as a "threat", I was never there, had a poor attitude, according to them, and dropped out at 16. I'm now 25, make $40k, and know that what you're doing is very very wrong.

might being turned in make a kid snap?

[mr_burns]

The one question that really concearns me is this. If a kid is truly disturbed, depressed potenetially violent, how will they respond to being "reported"? Imagine thinking that you only have a small, loose group of people who care about you...and that's the only thing that keeps you going from day to day. Now imagine that ONE of those people, you don't know who, has made it so that you are labeled as something less than human. Now your problems seem even worse.

If you were suicidal/homicidal before the "wave" hit you, this may be the event that makes you go through with what you've been trying not to do for your whole life.

The WAVE could increase the teen suicide rate dramatically.

America is not a democracy

[Lord_Byron]

I hate to be pedantic, but America is not, nor has it ever been, a democracy. We don't even directly elect our president...

This is important because it shows that the people who wrote the Constitution did not consider the populace at large to be sufficiently qualified to make decisions directly affecting the course of the nation. That is a situation that continues to this day as the 'mass hysteria' caused by incidents like Columbine drive idiotic attempts at legislation with the intent of appealing to the poorly thought out desires of the same populace that the frames of our system subtly derided.

Access to guns is not a primary cause of violence

[Lord_Byron]

If access to weapons were a primary cause of incidents like Columbine, they would be far more common in places were guns are common, such as the USA and Switzerland. In the absence of piles of bodies, it can be determined that guns to not 'cause' violence.

It might be argued that the common availability of guns aids in the cause of those who would be violent. This can be shown to be false, however. Alternatives to firearms exist that, when used effectively, are more effective then guns. Explosives are readily made from common materials and can drop an entire building in the manner used in Oklahoma City some years ago. In fact, that was part of the plan at Columbine. Had they forgone the guns and simply blown the building to oblivion, the death toll would have been far higher.

Instead, it seems to me than an environment that confuses fantasy violence with the real thing is the root cause. Note that this is not just violent games and movies, but more importantly the lack of any influence that would help these kids understand what they are doing.

In every case where the shooters have been taken alive, that I am familiar with, the kids have shown a marked lack of understanding of what they have done, or that the people they have jsut killed were real (isn't this close to the definition of a sociopathic personality?).

OTOH, they, when met with the overwhelming force of the local PD, they seem to either take their own lives, or surrender, frequently begging to not be hurt.

I've also noticed that none of these things happen in the really bad inner city schools. Could it be that kids who have seen violence close up understand what it means and don't snap in this particular way?

The USA: How bad we are

[Simeon2000]

WARNING: Biting Rebuttal

Wonderful. Another canuck ranting about how bad the people in the USA are.

Listen real close, Dudley, and everyone else who isn't a knuckle-dragging yank like myself:

1. The idealism of corporate America != Joe American's idealism
2. The policy of the American Government != Joe American's ideas for policies
3. The media's reaction to "incidents" != Joe American's reaction

What's wrong with people in the USA? What's wrong with any nation's people? This is just a knee-jerk political reaction to Columbine. Remember, we get sensationalized reports on incidents like this all the time (it ONLY happens in the USA, cuz we're all gun-toting maniacs (**cough** ALBERTA SCHOOL SHOOTING **cough**)).

So some paranoid parents want this. I can't think of too many American students who are really going to care enough to report some wierdo down the hall who wears black all the time and talks to himself.

This, coming from someone who lives in a nation where the Catholic church has an OFFICIAL lobbying group in the government, sounds a bit irrational. Do YOU and everyone you know in your neighborhood want a church/state mixture? My GOD! What's the matter with you Canadians?

WAVE is WRONG. But there's nothing WRONG with the average person in the USA. This is just another classic example of a government and it's media cheerleaders who are out of touch with it's people.

BTW, when ranting about someone else's country, step up, be a man, and don't check the "Post Anonymously" box.
----- if ($anyone_cares) {print "Just Another Perl Newbie"}

Two questions for Pinkerton:

[unx]

I have two questions of Pinkerton Corp:

1. There is a fundamental distinction, in American law, between the minor and the adult. The adult is able to vote, purchase controlled substances, join the military, etc. The minor is denied these rights, to the point of having no legal rights at all (save basic human rights). The basic premise of the distinction between young and old is that the young are not experienced enough or mature enough to make rational, informed decisions.
Your WAVE project relies on youths to categorize behavioral patterns of their peers; to decide who is stable and who is "at risk."
How do you, as a corporate entity, propose to utilize the reasoning power of a segment of society that is legally defined as having no decision-making capacity?

2. Given that there is no way to guarantee the security and/or the integrity of any stored information, what recompensations is Pinkerton Corp prepared to make to those damaged *WHEN* your database is penetrated, copied, and disseminated across the 'Net?
It may not happen this year, or next year, but I can envision a future political race greatly impacted by the "discovery" of a twenty-year-old database entry declaring a candidate to be "troubled" or "at risk".
Conspiracy: Or is this Pinkerton's long-sighted goal: The slow manipulation of America's future political candidates by database tagging and referencing (rather like time-delay blackmail)? /Conspiracy

Reasoned Discussion

[jekk]

JonKatz:

I am very pleased by what I read here, simply because engaging in open, constructive discussion is the most important thing that could happen. And I agree with your impression that large corporations like Pinkerton simply don't engage in this kind of discussion (at least not with other individuals). If Pinkerton is willing to do so, it is entirely to their credit, and suggests an opportunity for a real coup.

For your part, please respond in kind. Go out of your way to be open, to hear their side, and to try to achieve a real, measurable (even press-releasable) conclusion or compromise of some sort. I (among many others) believe that the opinion your columns have been expressing is a terribly important one, and that you have been expressing it well. On my behalf, as well as that of thousands of others, please go to this discussion with an open mind, but a firm moral foundation. Good luck to you both (you and Pinkerton).

Michael Chermside
mcherm@destiny.com

Re:I have a report

[Medievalist]

>He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past. - George Orwell, "1984", 1948

You might want to check the attribution on your .sig - I think some guy named "ChickPea" (or maybe "Garbonzo") made this remark in the Roman Senate long before Orwell was born.

--Charlie

PS-
Do people who read too much get turned in to WAVE too?
--CTB

Re:America: Long tradition of cherished freedom.

[Medievalist]

Hmmm.... the Pinkertons could have a WORSE name when they are already identified with the hanging of Black Jack Kehoe, and numerous murders and beatings of unionizers and striking workmen?
It's not like they had any real evidence on Kehoe (and it's hard not to sympathize with the Mollies when Irish immigrants were being starved, beaten and worked to death in the mines so that fat-cat mine owners could increase their already obscene wealth). And what about the Pinkertons' mowing down steelworkers with Gatling guns during the Carnegie era?
I am continually astounded by slashdotters' ignorance of basic history. I mean, this is RECENT history, dudes, not like the stuff I normally dredge up!
--Charlie

Wait for the class actions :-)

[shirro]

Perhaps adolescents don't have any rights but adults sure as hell do.

These guys should be scared as hell of class actions from people dobbed in. If people can show that there schooling and therefore their future was severely changed by this shit and sues them for loss of earnings, emotional damage etc they are screwed.

I hope they have lots of liability insurance.

Katz and Hot Grits

[F.O.Dobbs]

Pinkerton brass say they have read each of the Slashdot comments and want to talk.

They're probably just confused about this whole Natalie Portman/Hot Grits thing and they figure Katz knows what's going on with that. Soon we'll be overrun with Pinkerton employees making first posts. We'll have to introduce a new post type, Anonymous Fink.

A Simple Question

[esme]

I'm assuming here that everyone here is basically well-intentioned. That no one is intentionally setting out to run roughshod over anybody's rights. My question is: Isn't there a better way to do this? Instead of treating kids like they are criminals who need to be turned in by paid anonymous informants, couldn't we do something about the sources of their problems instead? I know that it's probably more expensive (and not as easy to take credit for "doing something") to make pschological counseling available. But isn't that the solution? I think that having counseling available, and letting the parents and the kids know that it is, will go a long way to fixing this. And I'm not talking about the "Here's some Ritalin/Prozac/Zoloft now go be a good kid" kind of counseling either. That does no one, least of all the kids, any good. Maybe that's not the answer. But my point is, having kids turn each other in for fun and profit sounds like a part of the problem, and not a part of the solution. It all boils down to the fact that we've got some emotionally and psychologically disturbed kids out there, and pitting them against each other doesn't seem like it will get any of them any help. -- -Esme

What Happens After the Report?

[esme]

Given that you cite Principles Underlying Intervention from the DOE/DOJ for your criteria for early warning signs, do you plan on following the Principles Underlying Intervention from the same report?

Of particular interest are the following:

• Inform parents and listen to them when early warning signs are observed.
• Maintain confidentiality and parents' rights to privacy.
• Develop the capacity of staff, students, and families to intervene.

--

-Esme

Pinkerton-- why so vague?

[Seth Scali]

Okay, I know this is a little late, but it isn't what you're expecting. This is a serious question for the Pinkerton Corporation.

Okay, when a student visits the "Wave America" site, the list of "Early Warning Signs" for a student are hosted locally-- specifically, here. But when it comes to "What you can do" if somebody exhibits these behaviors, you refer children to this page, hosted by the American Psychological Association.

Playing around on the APA site, I find a list of warning signs-- among them are a number of the same signs spelled out on your "Early Warning Signs" web page. However, the APA makes it abundantly clear that the symptoms listed under that category aren't even a potential issue unless exhibited over a period of time. You don't make that distinction on the WAVE site-- why not?

Additionally...
The following behaviors are considered indicative of "serious possibility" of violence by the APA:

• loss of temper on a daily basis
  
• frequent physical fighting
  
• significant vandalism or property damage
  
• increase in use of drugs or alcohol
  
• increase in risk-taking behavior
  
• detailed plans to commit acts of violence
  
• announcing threats or plans for hurting others
  
• enjoying hurting animals
  
• carrying a weapon
  

These are what the APA considers to be the best indicators of potential violence. They are more "concrete" (as far as that term can go in the field of psychology) than the "early warning" signs.

However, you seem insistent upon teaching children the "Early Signs". This is absolutely clear, even in your "Speak Out" page, which contains only a link to the "early" signs (and no link to the "imminent" warning signs). Why are you so insistent upon teaching the vague and inherently more error-prone methods of detection? Early detection is key, but it would seem you're overlooking a larger "threat" to the students. Why is this so?

----
I have come to a conclusion about life... I am more
mentally stable than any of these activists or

Re:America: Long tradition of cherished freedom.

[Ambassador Kosh]

Yes, the United States does not have a clean history. However, come to think of it, name ONE country that does. The idea behind our right to bear arms is to provide a means to rise up against our government should the need ever arise. It has happened once in our history, and had our ancestors been denied the right to bear arms, the Revolutionary War would have been short lived indeed. I've talked about this with numerous friends and classmates. Some of our best debates were the results. However, what it came down to, 9 times out of 10, was WHY we needed this right. Most of the time, the argument was given that, as a "civilized" society, we would not need to ever rebel again. I'm sorry, but I have always found that to be a naive. Not even Alan Greenspan can predict the future. The foundation of American society is our Constitution, Bill of Rights and the Amendments that follow. When you start undermining those, you start taking away our rights and freedoms, and THAT is unacceptable.

Re:But there *are* worrisome kids out there

[wirefarm]

Sure - Use it with my compliments!
As for the 'proverb' - I live in Tokyo now and I know another gaijin who is teaching himself Japanese by memorizing the announcements on the train. He used to say them over and over to himself as he wrote code...
He uses bits of them in conversation...

But there *are* worrisome kids out there

[wirefarm]

require grain_of_salt;
$tongue_in_cheek = true;

I only wish that this program was around when I was in school. Here is what I would have reported:
When I was in HS, there was this group of kids that worry me still. Kind of anti-social kids who dressed oddly and kept a step out of the mainstream. I kind of knew one of these kids. Kind of likable, yet *different*. They all wore these little cross symbols around their necks. I asked about it and he told me that it was a symbol for some middle eastern guy who was murdered ritually and horribly using huge nails and a spear. Apparently this guy was nailed to this 'crucifix' and left to die while people mocked him. Sick. All these kids would meet in semi-secrecy and 'worship' this guy. Once a week, they would symbolically drink blood and eat flesh. Now the really scary part: They did this with the full consent and knowledge of their parents. I mean, it just didn't seem normal. (He even had the gall to invite me to join them while they chanted their incantations.) They used to talk very apocolyptically about 'The valley of the shadow of death' and 'Inheriting the Earth'. They were always talking about how great it was going to be after they were all dead. Apparently this guy with the nails was going to put them in some sort of paradise and torture the people who didn't believe. I mean, they really *believed* this stuff. That was it - either join them, or fry forever. (There was also some vague Anti-semitism in all of this, since the Jews had allegedly killed their 'saviour'.)
These kids were not like the other kids in school. They listened to this weird rock music that I never heard on the radio or saw in the record stores. They did these weird gestures, touching their heads and shoulders *Right in class*, often before a test! As I found out, there is a network of these people, pretty much everywhere. The local 'lieutenants' in charge of organizing all of this are these kind of quiet unmarried guys who dress all in black and hang out in these scary gothic-looking buildings. Apparently they indoctronate new recruits shortly after birth, in some sort of ritual where the baby is held over a deep well of water and some of it is poured on the baby's head. Behind them is another of these cross symbols, but get this - this one has a statue of the semi-naked martyr, garishly bleeding and agonizing, with painted blood dripping from these spikes through his hands and feet. (Not to mention he has long hair and a beard. Kind of looks like one of those guys you see on the street, shuffling around and mumbling to himself...)
I'm only scratching the surface of this group here. I'll bet Pinkerton would send out the van and round up these kids in a heartbeat...

(Please understand that I am not Anti-Christian. I am only trying to make a point.)

Re:But there *are* worrisome kids out there

[Alpha State]

Nice comment, I hope you don't mind if I steal it for personal use.

When I was in high school, there was also this weird bunch of boys who would go out on a field and fight over a piece of dead pig - they really scared me.

"Abunai desu kara, kiroi sen no uchigawa made, osagari kudasai..." - Japanese Proverb

First time I've ever heard a railway safety sign referred to as a proverb.

Pertinent point to ponder pertaining to prizes

[Knile]

Let's say Kid A turns in Kid B, for grudge/amusement/prank/bullying. Kid B
gets screwed over by the WAVE, having
to undergo psych testing and therapy.
Kid A grins like an idiot on the sidelines
and wins a free t-shirt. Kid B has some
friends, C & D, who seek vengeance.
Kid A thinks he's "the bomb" so he starts
wearing his "I Helped Out WAVE" t-shirt around
school. C & D end up beating the snot out of
A, because he used the WAVE for not-so-nice
purposes, namely to get B into trouble.
Consequence: WAVE indirectly causes violence,
because it can be easily abused.

Re:You come across as being arrogant SO?!!

[GreyFauk]

We ARE Arrogant... What's the big deal?
Yes.. "normal" folks are nice people... I like to
be around them as well... but damn if it doesn't get
annoying being around people with the IQ of yogurt for
too long. *sigh*

I have NEVER in my entire life, claimed that I am NOT arrogoant. *shrug*

I have to hand it to the kid for expressing what I've dealt with
all my life.
Now, granted, I took a different route and spent 15 years
attempting to burn out my IQ with drugs. It didn't work
as well as I guess I had hoped and I'm now back in
school.

The point though, is that there's nothing wrong with arrogance.
Don't confuse arrogance with being an asshole. They are
not the same. I am very sure of myself. *shrug*
I have earned it. Therefore, I am arrogant.

I'd also like to point out that it's not really the
IQ factor that is so annoying about the majority of
the population, it's their total lack of interest.
Let's just say that when I find myself spending time
watching TV... I know that something is wrong.

I wasted 15 years doing drugs... I don't have any
extra time to waste on SHEEPLE!

Hmmm...

[Herbert West]

I wonder how much money I can make from this before they catch on....All I have to do is get the yearbooks from all my local High Schools and turn in every single student in every single school. How much are they offering again?

This is a seriously horrible idea that will do no good whatsoever, and a lot of very real harm. Aside from the very real possibility that it would be used for profit or petty revenge, it would definitely put a lot of unwarranted stress on people who really need less stress and a caring person to listen to them. But then again, Children have no rights in this country. They are basically the property of their parents, so why should anybody listen to this argument and begin to treat them like people?

Re:The obvious solution to all of this...

[GC]

Are you sure you're not saying imprison everybody with your criteria?

Re:wasn't this a tv movie?

[Lucifer]

The swastika has never had an innocuous meaning. The swastika is an evil sunwheel. The difference is that a swastika rotates counterclockwise. A sunwheel is a positive sign.

The SS armbands DID appropriate an innocuous symbol for an evil purpose. Hitler was really interested in Odhinnism and Norse mythology in general, but only so far as it could be used as a tool to enslave people's minds.

Pinkerton Question

[nnet]

Earlier I had posted a message to the effect that using an anonymous reporting system left itself open to massive abuse, not to mention children just aren't qualified to make psychiatric judgements.

My question to you:
Are you going to continue to allow anonymous reportings?

Re:Am I the only one...

[deranged unix nut]

I agree, I think that following the collective conciousness model of slashdot, it might be better to elect a dozen or so representatives to have an irc style chat rather than have one individual representing the community.

Take those whose posts have been moderated to 3+ and insightful for example and have them represent us.

Issues such as this one involve so many variables that a single person may not be able to grasp the full concequences of any given action within the situation. A group, however, should be able to analyze the situation and collectively grasp and explain the concequences.

Re:I have a report

[ywwg]

the excuse in our school was that people playing cards must be gambling. Hmmm, what's it called when everyone is assumed to be guilty?

We'd fight this by throwing down all of our posessions on the table when a teacher came around. When they got in earshot, we'd say: "I'll meet your watch, and raise you my calculator!" They'd usually get annoyed :)

Re:The Wave

[Bishop282]

I remember this movie too. The teacher keeps building the group and tells the members one day that their leader will address them. He gets everybody in the auditorium and pulls back the curtain to a full screen of Hitler giving one of his speeches. A very compelling movie.

Here it is at IMDb.

Re:My biggest fear about WAVE: a tool for bullying

[scm]

I agree with Dave, but have a couple of related questions:

How do you propose to protect the privacy of students who are reported maliciously (not if, but when)?

How is your system going to handle the load of hundreds or thousands of students start maliciously reporting others at the same time?

Re:The "warning signs"...

[scm]

'More disturbing was "Conveys violence in writings and/or drawings." Lot of room there. I guess kids shouldn't draw battles or scenes from their favorite movies; God knows what will be reported about them.'

Hmm, that describes almost all of my friends in high school. They never picked on anyone else, never fought, etc. I think most of their violent thoughts (which, I can't stress this enough: where never acted upon) where the result of being picked on.

Does Pinkerton propose to solve the problems in schools by removing the students that can't take the stress of being an outcast?

freebies

[lythander]

Are they giving away brown shirts? I find they really compliment my blonde hair and blue eyes.

Re:Term has worked well..

[nexxed]

Ah, but Katz is one of us, isn't he? While I harbor no personal animosity towards him, I would think that if he wishes to play Geek Representative, we should at least agree on just who he is representing.
That said, you're right about the PR issue... geeks, (my definition) seem to be rather bad at it. Perhaps because it seems more in the realm of corporations and ineffectual politics, but in the end, It's the Way the World Works.
However, back to zed (gee, I'm jumping around a bit), 'geek profiling' seems to imply that they're singling out geeks (our geeks, Slashdot culture geeks)... when the term only increases the poor image of geeks. Defining a geek as someone who is depressed and an outsider who may have violent tendencies and is picked on by society really doesn't work towards vindicating true geek culture.
I call that we come up with a new term instead of 'geek'. ;) Something that's clever, will confuse people, and describes the tech-saavy intelligentia culture that has sprung up in the psat few years (though it's been around for quite a while, of course).

Only the name will be changed

[webster]

To protect the guilty. Come on, now. These guys aren't interested in helping the kids of today, or in giving anyone a voice in the workings of their program. The only reason they are changing anything at all is because the name they chose was linked to a fictional neo-nazi group. It would have been far better if that link had remained hidden until after they had started marketing this program full-blast. Then the embarassment would have killed it dead. As it is, they'll just make enough minor changes to warrant a name change and start calling it something else. Then they'll be able to pretend that this is not a nazi style supression of freedom and individuality, and that they themselves are not closet nazis.


Always and inevitably everyone underestimates the number of stupid individuals in circulation

Re:Accountability

[DrDemento]

I just want to say, great post. i don't have kids, but you still managed to say almost everything I would've personally said.
This whole idea is such a crazy mix of Orwell Meets Adolf that I almost want to laugh.
And who knows, maybe someone high enough up there really has good intentions about this project, actually wants to help kids. But, give people this kind of power, and it's going to get abused. The Romans knew that... look at my sig, for example. Who will guard the guardians? No one, because the matter in question is simply a bunch of minors, who seem to have no constitutional rights. For the record, I'm not a minor, but I can remember dozens of high-school violations of the First Ammendment alone. It's just disturbing that our greatest resources, kids (yes, even greater than coal :), are played like this, pushed around like chess pawns and then punished when they learn a move other than "straight forward."
Wow, I got ranty :)



Do any /actual/scientists work here, or is it just one long game of truth or dare?

Two questions...

[theCoder]

My biggest question is how they plan on stopping abuse of their system. The program in principle seems like a relatively good idea (it's basically no different from a student telling a teacher that he/she thinks something is wrong with another student). However, there is a lot of room for abuse for any number of reasons. Mayber student A is mad at student B, so A turns B in by making up stuff. Or maybe A just wants to have a little fun. Who knows. But it ends up wasting lots of time and money and can be very embarassing for student B. All this without a way to track student A down.

So I think that perhaps the degree of anonymity should be restricted. Student A can be anonymous to the school unless it turns out to be a bad call, and then the school can find out who it was and punish the offender, or somthing like that.

My other question is how low key is this operation? When a (assumably legitamite) call is received, do they only tell the school, first try the parents and then maybe the school? I would hope that they _never_ intentionally call the media over something like this, but how would they prevent leaks by operators? Is that even possible? How secure is their database of calls?

(I guess this turned out to be more than 2 questions :)

Re:I Find it Ironic

[ConceptJunkie]

I'm not defending the tobacco companies in any way, but I do have a problem with the way the government is treating them.

Tobacco use causes cancer and kills people. Nobody disagrees with that. If a new product were introduced on the market today that were one-tenth as deadly for similar reasons, the manufacturer would not only be banned from selling it, but would probably be ostracized as a corporation and compared to the Nazis (see my other post :) ). However, tobacco makes a ton of money and is extremely popular (in no small part because it is addictive).

So what the government is saying is, "Clearly you produce a poisonous product that is unequivocably dangerous to the people who use it, you have lied about its addictive effects are evil people, BUT since you are making a lot of money, we'll just look the other way as long as you give us a big cut."

To me, the government is profiting off of tobacco's success while claiming that they are opposed to what the industry is doing. In other words, they are extorting those companies because, let's face it, it's just too politically expensive to ban the product, which is the only way to really save lives.

I don't like the fact that these companies are being penalized for selling a product that is legal to sell. You can't have it both ways. But there's too much money being made for Congress to do the right thing, so they just try to skim some off the top. That sounds more like something the mob would do than a democratically-controlled government.

I cannot think of a large company that doesn't do at least one thing (usually mercilessly exploiting poor people) that would make me want to boycott them, except for the fact that I'm not ready to chuck it all and go live in the woods writing cryptic manifestos. But if something is legal, then the government should treat it as legal, if it's not then ban it and be done with it.

If, as you say, the tobacco executives are murderers, then prosecute them as such. However, If the government is willing to let tobacco be legal for the reason that this is a free country people are free to consume products they know to be dangerous, then the tobacco executives are not murderers and the government should let the companies alone.

Re:Soviet History

[ConceptJunkie]

Yes, I didn't mention the Nazis by name, but I was thinking of them. Since so many people invoke the Nazis when describing the radical right wing or the radical left wing, or anyone they don't like in general, it's become an almost meaningless perjorative. However, a lot of the things that are being pushed in our society in the last thirty years are frighteningly similar to much of what the Nazi's were doing in the 30's.

okay, gun control, state control of education, ratting out your friends and neighbors, sure, but at least we're not gassing people by the millions.

Well, let's consider:

Abortion becomes legal in 1973 and the Supreme Court decides that the definition of human being is based on the convenience or whim of the pareents of the unborn child, perhaps it's based on the level of technology or how much money you have. In any event, the definition varies from case to case and reminds me that Jews weren't considered people, and slaves weren't considered people. 27 years and something like 40 million murdered babies later, children are being aborted for having life-threatening defects, then children are being aborted for serious diseases, then children are being aborted because because the parents feel they can't afford them, then children are being aborted because they are the wrong sex.

Then we get into the whole euthanasia issue and don't tell me that the convenience (and expense!) of the relatives of some poor soul being considered for mercy killing doesn't play heavily into the decision. Euthanasia candidates quickly change from people with terminal illnesses in great pain, to people who are old and infirm to people who are just handicapped to people who are just too damn inconvenient.

Maybe it's not based on race or religion this time, but the genocide can and will continue.

Don't eat the Soylent Green.

What are the after effects?

[Krimsen]

First of all, I would like to applaud the Pinkertons for listening... and for reading Slashdot =)

My concern is what impact this type of profiling will have in a person's post-high school life. Will future employers know about their record in the WAVE database? Will the information be discarded after the person leaves school? What about during college? Will the profiling continue into secondary education?

Re:Blown away...

[gmhowell]

Kids don't have constitutional rights to the same degree as adults.

However, this likely is a violation of certain rights (especially if Pinkerton cannot show what happens to these records after the kid turns 18) Also, consider the case of those of us who turned 18 before graduating high school. There should be enough of them to form a fat class-action suit against Pinkerton, the governor, and the state of NC. Those 'kids' do have full rights.

My question is how can NC use what Pinkerton collects without following the law. While Pinkerton has some freedom, if NC uses the information, it is held to a higher legal standard.

Ahh, this whole thing is bullshit anyway. The correct thing to do is for the undesireables to get together and spam the hell out of the hotlines. Hopefully there will be web-based reporting, and someone can write a perl-script to flood Pinkerton. Otherwise, I'd suggest a $10 roll of quarters and the pay-phone outside 7-11. The trick is to single out the one kid above reproach (the principal's kid? Better yet, in my high school, the superintendent's kid attended. And in NC, if you are lucky enough to go to school with the niece/nephew/child/grandchild of the governor or one of the Pinkerton scum... Rat 'em out. Keep track of your calls (away from home) and when the shit hits the fan, you'll be ready.)

Room 101

[The Big D]

Mr Katz,

Can you please persuade the mysterious Mr Pinkerton to read 1984 before the meeting? I find the parallels between his organisation and the Thought Police particularly disturbing.

The broad principle of speaking to the disturbed kids is an interesting one. I've been a and if you have at least one eye open, you can identify many of the unhappy ones. And also which one's are bullies (often the same kids, I would surmise.)

I would say that schools should encourage heads of year to speak to kids they're worried about (in terms of the child's own well-being, not out of fear of violence) to let them know that they are concerned and are available should they wish to talk about anything.

When I was at school (not university) I was downright miserable. I don't think even my parents were aware (having spoken to them since.) This wasn't particularly anything to do with geekiness. It may also be relevant to the discussion that I am British and went to UK. One of my teachers stopped me for a moment after class once and told me that he'd noticed how I obsessively bit my nails and asked if anything was wrong. Now, I told him that it was just a habit, but the fact that he bothered to care meant a lot to me.

Teachers spend more time with the children in "quality time" than many parents do - I think we need to look to them as more than educators, but also as guardians.

Regards,
Damian Smith

---------
To hell with you, I never liked you, you are no friend of mine...

School == education, school != sport

[WSSA]

To my way of thinking, one of the fundamental problems is an educational system that places too much emphasis on sporting achievement. Many of the messages I have read are questioning why the jocks are able to get away with physical assault on the (so-called) misfits. The reason is that adults grant them status on the basis of their sporting ability. This is because they are the ones who will eventually make it to university (on the basis of their sporting ability) where they will carry the name of the high school with them. And on the basis of this the university, and in turn the high school, derives its status and in turn its funding.

School is about education, it is not about being a sports star. Sure, sport encourages development of teamwork, cooperation, fitness, etc. - all good stuff. But the overemphasis on sport is dangerous.

It's easy to understand

[Jimhotep]

Kids raised with no rights will not miss
them when they are grown.

Very simple thing to do.
Especially in a free country.

Just look around at what is happening.

Re:Pinkerton?

[Morrigu]

Yes.

They've expanded since their beginnings, from working as mercenaries (generally on the side of the government, but hired guns & thugs nonetheless) in the West after the Civil War, to working as mercenaries and spies for the Feds and corporations during the periods of labor unrest in the 1890s through the 1930s, and providing intelligence and brute force in the various anti-Communist movements from the Bolshevik revolution until the 1950s.

Haven't heard much about their doings for the last fifty years, but given their track record, I'm not surprised to see them involved in this sort of knee-jerk security-paranoia stunt.


------------------

Re:A rant, of sorts

[CoderDevo]

And now the problem is that these things are starting to kill people. The unfortunate thing is that there are no easy answers. Sitting up here in our omnipotent thrones, we can see that now the bullies are meaner and more unforgiving (and with longer memories, which is odd because I thought TV was supposed to be killing that), the geeks are suffering on a more long term basis (i.e. everyday), and because of this, IMO, more of a cause for the persecuted to strike back.


Interesting that you point that watching more TV should be killing long term memory. People seem to remember social interactions for a long time. In this age of broadcast media, computer games and the internet, face-to-face social interactions are more scarce. I believe that it is this lack of face time with parents & friends that is propogating more anti-social behavior.

Several Questions

[deacent]

Question 1: I find it ironic that several of these early warning signs are often the hallmarks of those who are most likely to harass others to the point where they feel like violence is the only way out. In particular:

- Hits or bullies others.
- Expresses uncontrolled anger.
- Displays intense intolerance or prejudice.
- Makes threats.

If a popular student was harassing a "weird" student and was reported through this hotline, is WAVE prepared to look past the student's image to the behavior? This is a chronic problem that I encountered at school. "Oh, but everyone likes < insert name here>. She/He's so nice. You're not popular. It must be you."

Question 2: Is WAVE prepared to deal with students who have lost faith in authority figures (because they have failed to protect them) and have little or no respect for others as human beings, especially those who have made their lives miserable actively or passively?

Question 3: What methods would WAVE use to determine whether or not a student is a threat?

Question 4: Does WAVE care about situations that are less than extreme? That is, if a student is found to be under a great deal of pressure but not to the extent that he is likely commit violence, would this student be tracked?

Question 5: How confidential is the information collected about students?

Question 6: Who determines whether a student is a danger?

Question 7: Once a student is identified as a danger, what would be the standard procedure for dealing with the student?

-Jennifer

Re:I have a report

[morrigan]

Woo! Let's hear it for the Birch John society. Bringing conservative values and outdoor plumbing to a town near you! Everyone needs a birch john!

sports?

[morrigan]

The wave website has a whole section devoted to sports. "Write in and tell us how great your school's team sports are!". Gimme a break.

This question has probably already been asked a dozen or more times, but what is Pinkerton's going to do about the school-supported culture of violence that is called team sports? I was bullied in school, and so were my geeky friends, but we never fought back. Who was doing the bullying? The football team, go figure.

We couldn't get money for band instruments or new chairs in the auditorium or for (god forbid!) art classes, but the football team got a new stadium and a new scoreboard. Do you know how many paintbrushes you can buy with what a new scoreboard costs? Instead, we take a group of hyperaggressive, testosterone-fueled young men, teach them to hurt other people, and then try to keep them in check when they're not off the field.

I invite all slashdot readers who are still in high school to hit the following URL:

http://www.waveamerica.com/news/wavenews.htm

Go ahead, write in, tell them how much your school sports program BITES and how much it detracts from actual education. Tell them how they're deluding young men and women, suggesting that more than one in a million has a chance of becoming a national sports figure. Ridiculous.

Re:The "warning signs"...

[morrigan]

Hear, hear. My mother and my mother-in-law are both teachers, and in the twenty-five years they have been in the business, they have both seen a steep and alarming rise in the number of parents who refuse to come to parent-teacher conferences, refuse to participate in extracurricular activities, and generally refuse to get involved in their children's lives in any way. My wife is now an educator, and has witnessed gymnasiums full of cots--that's where they put the kids who get dropped off at 6am because their parents don't want to deal with them while they get ready for work in the morning.

You need a license to drive and a license to shoot--why don't you need a license to raise a child? Hell, I need a license to raise a DOG in some states.

Re: Cards in school...

[GreenK]

I don't think we were even allowed to have playing cards in school... They would take them away if you were playing on school grounds.

Funny, they didn't object to the group that was playing with Magic Cards at lunch...

Oh well...

Is this necessary?

[ttyp0]

Is a school so large, that it needs a cookie cutter approach to a dynamic problem? I believe each school is unique, and students would be better supervised by their teachers and administration. After all, these are the people who are in contact with them everyday and know them best. A nationwide 1-800 number, ohh please. These young students don't need to be treated as criminals, they need support from friends and family.

[very ot] What school in Edmonton?

[???]

I was in school in Beaumont 'bout 10 min. south around that time... Knew some people that went to some of the Edmonton schools...

Creating a market.

[NME]

Is this a service to protect "the children" or is it an opportunity to make some money?

*sigh*. Atleast Pinkerton had the decency to wait a year before milking a tragedy for cash.

-nme!

Yes, I think it was called The Wave.

[timothy]

If you or your parents etc are / were late-hippy types, I think you can find the story reprinted in the 1980 or 86 Whole Earth Catalog.

There's also a strange film I've seen about a teacher who wanted to demonstrate the power of conformity etc by telling her kids that everyone with blue eyes was superior to those without out -- and the kids rigidly enforced this "truth." When the teacher revealed that she'd been 'wrong' and really it's the blue-eyes who were inferior, all the non-blues were quick to prove that this, too, was true.

Anyone know the name of that one?

timothy

off-topic

[headrock]

does anyone find this comment from an andover press release this morning a little disturbing?

"Visitors to this co-branded Linux book store can conduct full-text searches across the entire bookstore, preview for-sale books prior to purchase using ibooks.com's patent-pending
'previewing' technology.....

EXACTLY my thoughts

[bonch]

You are exactly right; these have been my feelings all along. It's SOCIETY'S fault, not guns.

Re:braindead

[jasontromm]

Gun control isn't needed as much as parental control. How about parenting classes for the parents of those kids who are considered "depressed and dangerous?" If they were involved in their kids lives, it wouldn't be such a problem. We don't need any more gun control laws; we already have 11,000. Know how many criminals were prosecuted by Clinton's "Justice" Department? Only ONE (that's right 1) was prosecuted in 1998. Let's try enforcing these laws first and then see what happens.

Which School Officials

[jasontromm]

I'd love to know which school officials had the hare-brained idea to start this program in the first place. I'll be running for school board in Forsyth county in 2001 and it would be a great issue to use against someone. :-)

being an adult...

[epseps]

I wish minors had more of a voice. But I bet what really peeved the Pinkertons was the fact that they found out that they named their fascist program after a made for TV pogram (The Wave).

I Wonder if they were planning a program for the little ones called "Duck...duck..Gulag!"

Freedom to kill the powerless

[MadAhab]

Yes, you'd think Pinkerton's name would be dirty enough from the steelworker killings that they wouldn't need to go around looking for new ways to look like totalitarian ape-men, but there you have it....

Re:I have a report

[dfreed]

No, No, No. That was the football team, not a cult. Nevermind that they plan, plot and scheme (with the help of a teacher!) to hurt and maime others (on school time, and with school funds!). After all, they do it all in the name of organized sports and under the auspices of the School, so it must be OK.....

Re:I second the comment.

[sesquiped]

Wow. I find a new SS player on slashdot every week! Great program, btw. I haven't had much chance to use it, because I don't do lots of mapping, but it seems very powerful. About the new UI, what is it written in? If it's C/C++, you can probably take out the lvl-file parts and use them on any platform, and just whip up a simple UI around it. FACTS seems like a perfect fit for a simple CLI interface. It doesn't make much sense a a GUI. The good part of a CLI would be that if you're careful, you could have one source file for Win32 and Linux/other unix and just use #ifdefs. It would make things a bit simpler.

BTW, where do you play in SS? I'm mostly an ASWZ person, but I like to try out new zones.

The obvious questions

[chazR]

I am sure you already intend to ask the following, but here goes anyway:

Assuming you are really planning to implement this scary system, how will it work? When you get an anonymous (or even open) report of someone who is reported to be acting 'oddly', what happens next? Who is informed? Teachers? Parents? Police?

How are 'reports' corroborated? Or do you intend to act first, ask questions later?

Are you concerned that you could be handing a vicious, nasty little weapon to irresponsible people? How do you vet the 'reporters' to ensure they are not acting out of malice rather than concern?

What recourse do the accused have? I would hope that they are presented with any allegation, including *all* relevant facts This includes *all* records that you have about them. Will they have free access to an adult who will represent their viewpoint and are assumed innocent of *everything* until there is *real* evidence of wrongdoing. Real wrongdoing, not just 'Not fitting in', or 'Having a bad attitude'

Are you concerned that you are undermining the role of teachers and parents? That you are attempting to remove some responsibility from the people who *should* be caring for children with emotional problems?

Finally, are you aware that you could easily get your behinds sued off, bigtime? Are your shareholders aware of the legal risks you are taking with their money?

I was a scary kid

[prizog]

And at times it would have been nice to have help. I guess my parents tried to get me help - but the psychologists they sent me to seemed more interested in dragging information out of me than helping me. They cared about what my parents wanted, and not what I needed.

Years later, I met a person who really would have helped me. She was kind, intelligent, had good ideas, and had years of experience - if I could have talked to her, back in 7th grade, when I was a fucked up little freak (really!) I would have been much better. As it is, stories from 7th percolated up and were not forgotten even when I had graduated.

If you want to help people, learn from my experience. Offer a help line where kids can call, and talk to someone who cares. Allow local volunteers to join your organization, and point kids who need help to them. An hour per week is enough - just a time to unload, relax, and share with an adult who remebers what it was like to be young.

The other thing you can do is to offer training to schools in how to make a less hostile environment. There should be a person at every school who kids can talk to. No one should ever be barked at for wearing a spiked collar, or beaten up because they wore the wrong color clothing.

Note: I'm not scary now, and I get along with my parents. I was one of the lucky ones; I went to a school that did care.

Re:I was a scary kid

[prizog]

OK, then let's start up a national, adult hotline too. But it may be better to have a separate youth hotline for a few reasons.

1. Save The Children gets funding :)
2. Kids have different psychological issues.

Re:I was a scary kid

[forgey]

This is a common sentiment. For some time in my early adulthood I was moderately depressed too. Fortunately I had/have a very loving and supportive girlfriend/fiancee and really fun loving friends who always forced me to have fun anyway ;)

I too wish I had someone to talk to when I was in high school and I think that it's about time I did talk to someone. My girlfriend just started seeing a psychiatrist last month and really likes it. It's a little slow going for her (she's impatient ;) but she likes her shrink a lot and seems to think it's helping. I think I'll visit her shrink next week. I hope you gather up the gumption to do the same.

forge

Bounty on Jocks not Geeks!

[WillAffleck]

How about offering teens some money to turn in jocks/popular kids that harras the kids that do not fit the "social norm".

Exactly! If it weren't for the tauntings and beatings of the jock class and the humiliations of the cheerleader class, geeks could continue their work improving society to pay for the useless jock and cheerleader drones who sponge off our work.

Don't attack the results of the behaviour, get to the root of the behavioural problems. Geeks don't kill people - Jocks cause Geeks to kill people ...

Re:Bounty on Jocks not Geeks!

[ChannelX]

I can hardly believe I'm reading this here. The problem arises not from Jocks or Geeks but from the very destructive idea of classes. Stop thinking of people in terms of Jocks or Geeks or Classes, stop looking for divisions between people, treat them and respect them as individuals, and the world will be a much better place.

Great posting. Really. The funny thing is (at least in my experience) was that when I went to my 10 year HS reunion the majority of everyone were talking to one another. Nobody really gave a crap anymore. I just hope most teenagers now remember to think ahead and that HS is only 4 years of your life. Not a real short time but nonetheless not the end of the world. Hold on.

Re:Bounty on Jocks not Geeks!

[Donavan]

Ahh yes! Classes don't exist! There are zero fundimental differances in people at all!

Now I'm all for treating everyone fairly and kindly, however there are classes. I have very little in common with your average Jock, yuppie, or biker. Does that mean I'm nasty to them? No! But to deny that classes of people exist is ludicris.

It's kind of like people who get up in arms if a difference between the races is pointed out. Diversity is a good thing! Without diveresty there is no balance. An unbalanced system in unhealthy.

Re:Bounty on Jocks not Geeks!

[Pfhreakaz0id]

Please! are you serious? I think the differences only get greater. We had a joke at my last place of employment: "It's all about the shoes and the car." If you had 'em, it didn't matter what you actually DID for the company. Put it this way (I'm assuming you've read the Hitchhiker's Guide series -- see, I'm stereotyping!) who do you think would be on the "B" ark? I think it was B, you know there was one that had all the scientists and thinkers, one that had all the laborers, etc and one that had everyone else. -- the joke was the third one was the only one that was sent :)
---

Re:Bounty on Jocks not Geeks!

[gargle]

Exactly! If it weren't for the tauntings and beatings of the jock class and the humiliations of the cheerleader class, geeks could continue their work improving society to pay for the useless jock and cheerleader drones who sponge off our work.

Don't attack the results of the behaviour, get to the root of the behavioural problems. Geeks don't kill people - Jocks cause Geeks to kill people ...

I can hardly believe I'm reading this here. The problem arises not from Jocks or Geeks but from the very destructive idea of classes. Stop thinking of people in terms of Jocks or Geeks or Classes, stop looking for divisions between people, treat them and respect them as individuals, and the world will be a much better place.

====

Re:Bounty on Jocks not Geeks!

[gargle]

Saying that classes exist is not the same as saying that people are different - "class" implies a division among people. Differences among people does not imply that a class system exists. The idea of "class" is a purely ideological one, and not based on any intrinsic reality.

If you treat people from different classes well, then that's fine. But the original poster has problems with this.

====

Suing Pinkerton for Fun and Profit

[WillAffleck]

Maybe we could get together a class action lawsuit on behalf of all the Geeks who become "profiled" as a result of being harassed, beaten up, and taunted by jocks and cheerleaders.

It's America, after all ...

Raises an interesting thought...

[TypoDaemon]

Since the US is a nation, that while it fought evil, has never felt evil, it cannot recognize evil in its own home.

Geeks as victims of violence

[jamiefaye]

I was definitely a geek kid for most of my K-12 education. My experience of violence was entirely on the receiving end. I showed many characteristics of being transgender and the usual response was to try to force me to conform to male gender stereotypes by beating me up.

The point is that many of us were victims, not perpetrators. A system that would reduce the level of violence would benefit many of the children that are like us now. While there are many ways any system of intervention can go wrong, I think it is important to view this problem in the broader context.

I am reminded of the Stanley Kubrick movie "Full Metal Jacket", in which a geeky soldier is severely brutalized by the men in his unit, and then retaliates by fragging the drill sergeant and committing suicide. So much better to stop the violence on the way in, rather than when it comes exploding back out.

So my question for Pinkerton is: what will you do to protect us?

When You Have Children, Do This

[jazman_777]

Take them away from the clutches of the union hacks who buy into the profiling-program-of-the-day. School them yourself. Do whatever it takes so that you or your spouse can stay home and school them. You and your spouse will not ever call WAVE; you will teach them to be responsible and liberty-loving. You will also teach them Linux. You will learn more than you learned in school yourself.

Re:I have a report

[gonzocanuck]

LOL! my nerdy friends and I used to sit outside the library and play cribbage because, altho we were fair friends with the librarian, he thought cards were the tool of the devil. Sigh.

Kids' Help Phone in Canada

[gonzocanuck]

They also have a website - http://kidshelp.sympatico.ca - please use it! It is non judgemental and anonymous.

Re:I have a report

[gonzocanuck]

Oh sorry, you use cards in cribbage...it's kind of an old fogey game my then nerdy boyfriend taught me at the time, you move little pegs along the board...hmm...I haven't played it since then, I forget the rules...but it did involve cards. Even playing fish *inside* the library was a big no-no, Mr. Topolinsky hated cards with a passion...OTOH, he was a nice guy who would let us in early to use the computers and read the papers first. He had a big impact on my life, it was mostly because of him that I went into library science...he was pretty cool except for the card thing...this was in Edmonton, AB...five, six years ago? Man, what a a while ago that was...

Too true

[gonzocanuck]

Man, I totally forgot about those cheers where our school would "crush" and "defeat" some other team. I hated mandatory pep rallies. They were so loud and boring and I could never be a part of the good ol' 3-minute Hate :-)

Re:How about these Apples.

[Qic]

How about making the lame ass teachers stop using the embarassment tactic to try to get kids to learn? I remember the thing I *HATED* most about school is that if you screwed up just a little bit, the teacher would make you an example in front of the class. I remember one time in junior high when I wrote on a photo copied handout the teacher was passing out when I was supposed to use my own paper. The fucker actually made a big deal of it and asked me, "Are you stupid or something?"

Given that my mother was as involved in what I was doing in school as she was, I never had too much problem with it. I think she convinced me that the teachers that did this BS and the kids that would use it as harassment ammunition were basically just morons that were unworthy of my attention. But think, what if she wasn't able to talk to me? Lets see....teacher belittles you in class, kids belittle you for same thing on playground....go back in class and get belittled some more from teacher, get beat up by other kids on way home from school while being taunted with what the teacher said that day. What fun....let me go home and get my dad's gun.

Its funny how the people running the schools all go on camera, scratch their heads in disbelief, and blame the parents of the kids. The morons running the schools are the problem. I don't know about other states or countries, but in California most of the teachers are there with an emergency credential. They get these emergency credentials and skip the whole post college part of the education that is supposed to prepare them for teaching. The schools recruit these losers since no one with a brain wants to take a teaching job for the crappy pay and mega-politics that it now involves. I remember my spanish teacher in HS telling us that he was at the top of his pay range after 20+ years of teaching. Where is the incentive to go through 4 years of college and start teaching?

wrongfully accused due to convenience

[lordbry]

When I was in HS, I was wrongfully accused of something because it was convenient to someone.

Someone I was aquainted with was busted for having drugs on school property. He was asked to name names of other people who used drugs... I was named, when I had done nothing wrong. I was then taken from class, questioned for an hour, and then excluded from school until I had a drug test... All on my mothers graduation from grad school day. It not only affected me, but my family on what should have been a very happy day.

The next day, after taking the test, I was allowed back into my small high school. All my teachers knew what I had been accused of, and everywhere I went in that building, teachers were watching me. The students all heard about it. They were all watching me. My family all knew about it. I still get comments to this day.

Now, that was an accusation of convenience... What is going to happen when kids get rewarded for turning in other kids?

When it comes down to getting something for free, in this society, kids will turn in even friends. Some of them will do it maliciously. Some will do it out of spite. Some will do it because they think it is the cool think to do. But the point is that kids WILL be turned in who would never harm a fly.

The proposed system will not only not work, but it will move this society into an age of freedom at a price... If your opinions aren't the norm, you WILL be persecuted.

Re:What if -- A compromise

[CuriousGeorge113]

How about changing the program around a bit? Wouldn't it be a little more effective if the teachers called in the report. That way there aren't any incentives for kids to call in this stuff. And if the techers called in the report, it would be more objective, "I see kids X, Y and Z picking on Kid A, something should be done." and then taking it from there?

This way the WAVE people still get to make their money and we don't have jock-ass kids calling in fake repoorts 20 times a day.

cG

Re:I Find it Ironic

[greenrd]

Taking away guns, dumbing down education, extorting powerful industries (like tobacco), micromanagement of peoples lives through excessively complex regulation and encouraging people to rat out their friends to the Party or Thought Police or whatever you call it, were and are all tactics of totalitarian regimes the world over, and are all being pushed heavily in the U.S.

Er, "extorting powerful industries (like tobacco)" sits very oddly in your list. Are we supposed to weep for the poor, victimised tobacco company executives?

Face it - they're a bunch of murderers. They knew for decades they were contributing to people's deaths, and they fought tooth and nail to allow their killing spree to continue without interference. They should be shot.

One of the most horrifying things about these school murders is that people get very distressed about them, but, by stark contrast, they don't seem to care about, or even be very aware of, the huge scale of corporate immorality in the world (like for example tobacco advertising) that collectively contributes to the death of millions of people worldwide.

Re:America: Long tradition of cherished freedom.

[B. Samedi]

Now there's a scary thought. I used to work security and for some reason the Pinkerton people around here weren't always the brightest bulbs. I shudder to imagine these guys handling military intel.

Re:America: Long tradition of cherished freedom.

[B. Samedi]

History lesson time. Pinkerton started as a protective service for stage coaches and trains as well as private detectives. If I remember, Pinkertons tracked the James brothers (Frank and Jesse). As time went along they were used by factory owners to break up strikes (hired thugs essentially).

Over time they have evolved into a large security corporation (Burns being another example) who supply security guards for whoever wants them. They don't have the bad name anymore (aside from those attached to the private security industry in general) mainly because what is past is past... and most people don't remember that kind of thing past the amount of time it takes to pass the history test.

Go here for a short (and biased; it is the company websight after all) history.

Re:Want to Stop WAVE dead? Ask them this:

[bungo]

>use the words "legal liability"

Yes. That's it. I think they might find themselves in alot of trouble over this.

If any of you students out there are victimized by your school due to wave, I am willing to assist in helping to pay to sue your school for violation of your civil rights. Hopefully other people here
would be willing to do the same and all of the legal costs could be covered.

I can't even believe that this sort of thing could be legal.

They read the comments?

[CentrX]

Pinkerton brass say they have read each of the Slashdot comments and want to talk.

Do they have anything to say concerning their "WAVE program" and "hot grits/Natalie Portman" or the ubiquitous "first post"? ;)

But seriously. I think it's great that a company is taking our ideas seriously, or at least appearing to.

Chris Hagar

"Respected"? Not Hardly!

[jcr]

Go and study a bit of history. Look up the Pullman Strike, then tell us if you still regard Pinkerton as a "respected private security company."

They started out rotten, and they're still rotten.

They can go to hell.

-jcr

How will Pinkerton avoid misclassifications ?

[redelm]

How will Pinkertons avoid missing potential troublemakers? By tightening the sieve so that more innocents are caught?

In America, we have a long tradition of cherished freedoms. We seem to be willing to suffer the insecurity this causes.

How will Pinkertons avoid becoming unAmerican? How will you avoid becoming a Gestapo, however well meaning?

Re:How will Pinkerton avoid misclassifications ?

[Hentai]

Gods, this post is BEGGING for Dissociated Press.

Re:How will Pinkerton avoid misclassifications ?

[StormyMonday]

And more to the point, what kind of indemnety is Pinkerton willing to pay for false positives? Say, US$100,000 for each attempted suicide and US$1,000,000 for each successful suicide of any otherwise harmless geek? US$10,000 for each kid that gets beat up as a result of being turned in?

C'mon, Pinkerton -- if you're not willing to put your money where your mouth is, you're just another bunch of snake oil salesmen, trying to suck up to the public trough. Clever racket -- school shootings are so rare that nobody can really tell if your system works. *You* don't care if you ruin a few thousand lives, as long as you get the dough.

If you aren't willing to pay indemnities, then you don't believe in your own system. If you don't believe in it, why should anyone else?

How do the "anonymous" tipsters get their rewards

[MetalHead]

"WAVE America is a private, for-profit school-safety program gearing up in North Carolina -- with the enthusiastic support of the governor -- and going nationwide. It offers incentives (caps, T-shirts, cash) to students who call a toll-free number and anonymously turn in classmates they believe to be depressed or dangerous. "

So if the tipsters are anonymous, how do they get their caps, t-shirts and most importantly, cash?

How to handle...

[homebru]

OK, here's a question for the pinkies.

If they intend to use a web site as the reporting method, how do they propose to handle the reporting of entire sports squads, crossing guard patrols, or even schools on a nightly basis from random IP addresses?

Re:America: Long tradition of cherished freedom.

[palutke]

I am continually astounded by slashdotters' ignorance of basic history. I mean, this is RECENT history, dudes, not like the stuff I normally dredge up!

Yeah, that's what I get for studying engineering in college. I'm almost caught up on the stuff that happened while I was in school, so I'll be able to start back on the stuff that happend decades before I was born.

I almost majored in history, but couldn't think of a way I'd enjoy making a living, so off to engineering school it was. . .

Re:Make Money Fast

[palutke]

It also sounds like a great spamming opportunity. Post a message to a few hundred USENET groups, and turn in the people who flame you as 'dangerous'.

Re:THE SYSTEM MUST FALL

[palutke]

Along the same lines. . .

Start an online rumor that the Pinkerton 800-number is actually the 'unpublished' dialup for 'Who Wants to be a Millionairre'. They'll be so innundated with phone calls that they won't have any prayer of effectively profiling 'at-risk' students.

Oh, yeah . . . I don't advocate trying this. Nope, not me. If I did, I'd have posted as AC :)

Re:America: Long tradition of cherished freedom.

[palutke]

On the subject of McCarthyism, here's my question for the Pinkerton people:

When people hear the name 'Joseph McCarthy', they immediately think of the red scare in the 1950s, and react negatively. Most can't name a single other thing he ever did. How do you want people to react 50 years from now when they hear the name 'Pinkerton'?

Best and the Brightest

[BenByer]

I have visited the W.A.V.E. website and am rather disturbed by the content. I noticed that some of the conditions include things such as a lack of interest in school work, or a feeling of isolation from one's peers. I began to think of the most stunning and beautiful scientific developments that have been made when students have been taught in situations similar to our public schooling system. It seems to me that the creaters of the majority of great science have been the ones that exhibit these characteristics. Thinkers such as Einstein, Hawking, Mandelbrot, and many others did not excel at schoolwork. They did not 'fit in' with their peers. They were not 'normal', 'safe' children. This program would place even more pressure to conform and think in the standard and accepted fashion, yet it is exactly their refusal to think in this manner that has driven scientific progress throughout history. How can this program rectify itself with the fact that science, by nature, is driven by misfits and non-conformists? How can this program try to subdue original thought while conforming to the idea that this drives human progress?

Ben Byer

PS I have serious reservations concerning lecture style education aimed at the average person tobegin with. W.A.V.E. though also begins to erode personal freedom to the point where armed resolution may be necessary. I do not like the need for violence and avoid it when possible, but I will not live with big brother either.

Who does JonKatz remind YOU of?

[Bilestoad]

Call-in programs are bayd, mmmkay?

Re:America: Long tradition of cherished freedom.

[Zaxo]

Pinkerton's also ran Military Intellegence for the Union forces in the Civil War.

They were really bad at it too. They consistently inflated the numbers in the Confederate order of battle. Scared McClellan out of more than one victory.

Zax

What are they trying to accomplish?

[GooseKirk]

The question I'd like to sincerely ask these people is - what are they trying to accomplish?

I'd like to look them in the eyes and ask if they really, truly, honestly believe that encouraging and offering prizes for students to actively single out, ostracize and label other students is going to be a benefit to the school atmosphere... or are they just looking for a way to make a cheap buck?

I'd also ask if they would approve if their own child was "turned in" under this system. Or what they would have done if they had been turned in themselves when they were in school.

This whole project is so obviously and ludicrously wrong-headed, in fact, that I think there ought to be a place where we can turn in the people responsible for thinking it up. Isn't there anyone out there who'll give me a free hat for pointing out that these Pinkerton executives are clearly imbalanced, subversive and probably in need of more than a little counseling? Anyone? It doesn't even have to be a nice hat... I don't ask for much in return for my willing cooperation with the authorities...

Christopher Kirk
Olympia, WA

Brought to you by sponsors of the Wobbly Massacre

[GooseKirk]

But what more can we expect from the Pinkerton agency? The largest private operator of prisons in America. Legendary guardians of Area 51. Strongarm bullies for oppressive industrialists for over 100 years.

Founded by drunken Irish cops. What are some of the prizes you get for turning in kids? A fifth of Wild Irish Rose? Your very own billyclub? And if you turn in kids on St. Patrick's Day, you get a bonus switchblade!

I can think of no more appropriate and Genuine American institution to operate such a program. Good call, Pinkerton! Nice to see that some things don't change!

Re:pinkerton=thug

[GooseKirk]

Good idea. We should just directly sell the schools to the Pinkerton corp. They know how to handle troublemakers.

Fsckin' brilliant.

Re:Pinkertons? Strikebreakers.!

[mvanhorn]

Same company, different decade.

Buffer Overflow

[Hnice]

So what are we actually worried about it? This is the most abusable thing ever, which is why it's not a worry.

In case the Re: is lost on you, all we need to do is get 1000 /.ers who disapprove of this thing, we each phone WAVE 5 times a day, and all of a sudden the whole process collapses. Can't work. Signal to noise ratio approaches zero, and WAVE won't work. This worries me none.

Now, a less abuse-prone process with similar intent, that's a problem, but WAVE? Ha.

Re:Blown away...

[Lockle]

It's comments like "As far as I know, kids don't have constitutional rights." that have made life for loners and geeks so difficult. It may be true that children do not have all the rights that adults have, but this has been taken advantage of by the government and corporations for years. What about the teenage curfews across the country? What would happen if the lawmakers make it illegal for people ages 21 to 28 to drive on the roads at night because they have a higher statistic rate of drunk driving? The voters would never allow it and the politician who tried to do that would screw his career. But politicians do not have to worry about screwing kids out of their rights and treating them like sacks of sh*t just because CHILDREN CAN'T VOTE! OK, I've vented. I feel better.

A loner / geek is not a killer

[Lockle]

Because the Columbine Killers wore black and were socially inept does not mean that all socially inept people who wear black will take up arms and go on a rampage.
In fact, today Penn State University released a study that shows 60 percent of males who were surveyed admitted to a recent homicidal fantasy (females scored 32 percent)
Just because someone thinks or daydreams of getting revenge on the jocks that make their life a living hell does not mean they will act on it. The majority of geeks are content with the knowledge that they will have better jobs, have more money, and probably have a better looking wife / husband than the jocks who will eventually end up managing some little hardware store or McDonalds.

Ummm... oxymoron?

[AlienSquid]

I don't know if anyone else has brought up this point, but I didn't see it in my scans.

How can you turn someone in anonymously and then have them mail you your "prize"? in order to receive it, don't you have to give some sort of info? or even if you were able to go pick it up, they could still have you on record.

excuse me.. just mail that nifty hat/shirt/check to

Anonymous Coward
C/O john doe
1 some st.
smallville, US 12345

something just doesn't sit right with me there.

Re: Cards in school...

[Jerad]

Hehe...I remember being kicked out of the library twice at my old high school for playing poker. =) Many more times than that for playing Magic. They didn't seem to care if we played on the grungy lunchroom tables, however.

Re:Try CHILDLINE - UK

[C-))]

I agree with your sentiments - I was never a sports kid - always more the _geek_ (if you wanna call it that) - over weight and picked on - OK - I dealt with it a different way - I hit back - once - and that was enough...

My point - not eveyone has the option/ability to do that. So...

In the UK there is a (apparently) very succesful scheme been set up called Childline - here kids can dial in - ask for help - whatever. Sort of like a Samaritans thing except for kids.

http://www.childline.co.uk/

Maybe the folks at Pinkerton should take more a look at this model - it may not well fit in with the _macho_ security image (sorry Pinkerton people - but thats what your industry says to me) - but it sure as hell helps more than fighting violence with bribery - which the WAVE thing appears to be about.

Check it out - maybe you learn some - maybe not.

regards

C-))

WAVE Ware

[BlackHat]

None of the bribes^H^H^H^H^prizes will have the WAVE logo on them. They are smart enough to get wares from GAP and what ever the marketers tell them is(they want to be) popular with ages 12-17.
And most of all what will be accepted by school adminstrators as not a threat to their "local way of life"®.

So sorry no blood crusted WAVE T-Shirts to have as a front page photo, but when the only source of some half dead clothing line is WAVE we might just see some thing like it.

Sick people with sick unworkable ideas, Nail em' to the wall Jon.

Re:What is there to fear?

[hrast]

"If that doesn't scare you silly, go to your local library, and get a book called "the Crucible". I forgot who wrote it, but if you ask the librarian, they will certainly be able to find it for you." The author of that work is Arthur Miller. "The Crucible" is a play about the Salem witch trials and the abuse of the system to get even with those that the children had an axe to grind. When Miller wrote this play, it was an attack against McCarthyism and his blacklisting and "profiling" people as Communists. "Those who do not study the past are doomed to repeat it." M.

Re:America: Long tradition of cherished freedom.

[rossz]

What's the difference between an American and a Brit? An American CITIZEN has rights that can not be taken. A Brit is a SUBJECT of the Crown. As such, you are not qualified to discuss the issue of freedom.

Your limited rights were granted by your government and can be taken away at any time (can you say "Crypto"). An American has inaliable rights that were endowed by our Creator (and I'm not even a Christian). They can not be taken away, only supressed (thus, the need for the 2nd Amend.).

Yes, I am somewhat bothered that just about anyone can own a gun. But it's better than the alternative. A right you desire for yourself must be extended to everyone. I can not insist on free speech for myself but not for the nazi fucks that I find repulsive.

Personally, I think English football should be banned. Look how often hooligans (sp?) cause riots at matches. It's simply too dangerous to allow footballs out in the general public.

How can this be legal?

[CyberQuog]

My question is, how can this be legal? I mean, im sure Pinkerton has thousands of super lawyers waiting to defend their product, but think about it. If this was a program for adults, where u turn in your next door neighbor because you saw him with a steak knife, this would immediatly be branded discrimination. But, since children in the US of today have no rights, the fat cats can do what they want.

Did you ever get the feeling that we're living on a train, going full speed in a dark tunnel, and the conductor has no fucking clue what he's doing? Things like this program must be stopped now, before they show other companies it's ok to do this...

Re:How can this be legal?

[CyberQuog]

btw, this allready happened with the racial profiling on the NJ Parkway. Ironic that the geek profiling and racial profiling were going on at the same time.

Re:Good question. Another one:

[Cantara]

>What if a racist antisemitic crack-dealing pimp saved your kid's life?

Then that's one racist antisemitic crack-dealing pimp who still has some hope.

Re:Question from a european point of view

[bradleyjg]

"I have another question: do you realize that in Europe a plan such as yours would raise much concern, so much as to throw hundreds of thousands of protesters in the street? Do you realize that anonymously denouncing people has been only used by the harshest dictatorships in this century? Do KGB, Stasi, Gestapo and Sekuritat ring a bell to you? Ever heard of the concept of yellow star?"

Curious that all those examples are from Europe ... but of course Europe is _different_ now nothing like that could happen _now_.

----
Once all the Germans were warlike and mean,
But that couldn't happen again.
We taught them a lesson in 1918
And they've hardly bothered us since then.
--MLF Lullaby

Research

[Stin]

I would like to know what academic and clinical research is being used by the Pinkerton Corp. in establishing their criteria for categorizing the students.

Specifically, can they name any published or corporate studies supporting their position that it is possible to effectively profile potentially dangerous students, particularly based on anonymous tips?

Additionally, who are the experts in the field with whom they have consulted?

I hope they can provide you with more information that simply citing several statistical techniques. Any college student with a computer and MiniTab can demonstrate that "evidence."

Re:Research

[OpenGL]

I think there research is like in Dilbert when marketing does "research". It means that they asked their cat mittens.

Re:Act like the swiss, not the british

[dbrutus]

*NOBODY* does more to promote gun safety and gun training courses in the US than the NRA, the great bugaboo of gun control advocates in the US. Guns without training are horribly dangerous. Guns with training are dangerous mostly to tyrants, thugs, rapists, and theives.

There are exceptions and there are tragedies. My hat is still off to the swiss and if we are going to keep both safety and liberty, I would follow their example over the English/Japanese model any day.

DB

Act like the swiss, not the british

[dbrutus]

If we had *more* guns, we would probably end up with far fewer crimes (See Prof. Lott for the many studies proving this). For a practical example, take a look at Switzerland. Everybody from 18-56 has both a *true* military assault weapon in his house and ammunition for same. The violence rate is much lower than in both the US and the UK.

It's not the guns, it's the society.

DB

Re:Act like the swiss, not the british

[PsyQ]

Everybody from 18-56 has both a *true* military assault weapon in his house and ammunition for same. The violence rate is much lower than in both the US and the UK.

Well, that is partially true. But one of the reasons might be that we are _forced_ to learn using this particular weapon. 18 weeks of military education is mandatory, and you get to keep the ugly assault rifle you lugged around with you, shot with and cleaned all this time. If you've used the gun for a while, it suddenly isn't as fascinating as it was when you touched it the first time. Personally I hate firearms, but judging from most of my friends' comments they liked using them. You're also taught that the weapon shall only be used to defend the country in case of a crisis blah blah blah, and maybe this turns the public image guns have into something a bit different. They're still thought of mainly for defense instead of attack, while in the US it's the other way round.

Guess we Swiss are a bit too boring to actually use the rifle once we get back home. Most of the guys I know simply store theirs somewhere in the attic and never look at it again unless they're forced to by the government (once every two years). Well, until last week. Only a few hundred yards from my place, some guy ate a few magic mushrooms and went crazy. Shot two cops with the assault rifle his own country gave him for free. They had to get snipers to take him out. Since that got published in every type of media possible, more and more people around here are discovering that the rifle can be used to attack someone.. So this weekend, some other guy got drunk and shot the hell out of an apartment 15 miles from my place, simply because the landlord didn't want to rent it to him. Luckily no one was injured.

These things usually just don't happen.. I wonder why more and more people suddenly go postal. Can't be the weapons' fault. Switzerland recently outlawed shotguns and nobody really cared. Do that in the US and you immediately have 15 different lobbies protesting on the street.

The world's strange..

Re:Act like the swiss, not the british

[shiftaling]

> outlaw hate as illegal

Do you have any idea how bad of an idea that is!? Yes, we all know that hate is a Bad Thing (tm) but by even attempting to 'outlaw hate' you are creating a horrible horrible police state. Like it or not, rights are rights. Feelings and thoughts should never be restricted.

I'm an American and I'm damn proud of the fact that I can hate if i want to (not that i do). Look at the bigger picture before you make such superficial comments.

A take on their program and advice to Pinkerton...

[K space]

After perusing the website, I can see the progression of Pinkerton and its partners into this area of efforts. To its credit, Pinkerton has a long and distinguished history in safety and security in the United States and worldwide. In reading their "about" pages and the like, it seems that they're over their head in this new arena that those controlling education have dived into faster than every frickin' toilet paper retailer into e-commerce. It's an old knee-jerk reaction to big-news school violence.

In Pinkerton's case, the company has dived in with only experience in workplace security (they call it their AlertLine(R) service). But this is only dealing with working adults, who have very different behavior patterns, needs and concerns than students. The company/group claims to be made up of "a full-time staff of designers, illustrators, copywriters, graphic designers and project managers"; I don't see any, oh, psychologists, counselors, teachers, student leaders, or even any claims of "people who can get through to kids"(tm).

I think teenagers need reasons to struggle through a difficult, and confusing time in life. things to do--to want to do, to reach for. In high school, I did varsity sports--and I programmed. I fought to fit in--and stand out. Through school I was picked on, but school adults didn't care enough to or didn't know how to do much of anything about it or the punks around school. I saw that adult's stereotypes and profiling didn't work. I was confused--but always open to ideas, if somebody would only give a damn and maybe offer something. And we were smart--but weren't equipped to make judgement calls like this program is asking. (And, like most here have pointed out of themselves, I turned out fine, like most of the people these profiles would pick on.)

As for this hotline, it sticks out like a severed thumb in the program. I mean, there are actually good parts to their program, even a few things people have suggested here on this discussion. But most of them, like positive-oriented discourse programs, tend to end up taking a back seat to things like this hotline, which sounds like it's "doing something"(tm). Especially at a large, for-profit company. I mean, there are pleny of intelligent teenagers on /. to correct me if I'm wrong, but I hardly think this hotline is the way to connect to students. Especially, who the heck is going to rat to (or seek help from) a big corporation!?

And, OTOH, /. is also no utopia; there are plenty of sophmoric lusers--just like any other on- or off-line community, school, society, etc.--to see what goal-less punks do in their excessive free time: if Pinkerton wants to see a preview of how their system will be used, it can just scrape the bottom of this discussion or most others (too bad there's no "browse threshold below +1" option. :} ).

All told, == Waste of Time. The hotline is mostly out of line. Programs for counselling, challenging activities, tolerance, or even reporting actual violence, should be for schools, parents, students, local authorities or other grass-roots organisations to take responsibility for, not done by corporations that have the image of just trying to make money off the latest sensationalized headline news.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Re:you're confusing the issue

[Deep Penguin]

OK... Let's go out and arrest (harass) 1 in 10 adults in a bar because one of them _might_ get behind the wheel drunk and kill your child. Mind you, these adult bar patrons haven't actually done anything more provocative than assemble in a place that legally sells intoxicating beverages, but we have statistics that show that some people _do_ drink and drive. Let's just start harassing people who drink because those are the ones that will kill our kids on the roads.

Now does it make more sense?

What I want to know...

[OctaneZ]

What I want to know is what are they going to do once they have an anonymous tip? Who will they be reporting this to? Will they post these individuals names on a web site (let's hope not) will they contact the faculty at the school? Will they compile a list of these individuals accessible to law inforcement agencies? And how are they going to verify that any of this information is true?

It also says that they are a "for-profit" group, how are they going to accomplish this? Sell the list of dangerous kids?

This is truly a scary day.

TAKE YOUR BRITISH ASS HOME TO YOUR QUEEN

[darthduck]

yes it's true we have more handgun deaths per year- and yes THEY ARE DECLINING. but then again you're on an island...in america we have almost four times the people. most of them living in cities that continue to grow. besdies that-in america there's something called the SECOND AMENTMENT of the CONSTITUTION of the UNITED STATES. even though dems and some republicans would like to scrap that as well as the 1st...
Amentment2- Awell regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. it seems after we tossed out most of the idiots (aka the brits) we set down some laws to keep such things from happening again. if this means that every idiot gets a chance tohave a gun then so be it. hell, we are a warlike people... let us alone to kill ourselves and hope you never piss us off enough tocome and kick your country's ass. also remember who bailed you and most of europe out of during ww2. it's time america got some respect that it richly deserves...okok we have some fault but it beats being anywhere else...except maybe amsterdam.

flatline

Re:TAKE YOUR BRITISH ASS HOME TO YOUR QUEEN

[nomadic]

We already have a militia...it's called the friggin Army

Re:Blown away...

[ovlaski]

I don't think it is a violation of consitutional rights. As far as I know, kids don't have constitutional rights.

Question

[gadders]

What do the caps and free stuff they give out look like? If they're cool I might have to turn in my sister to get one.

Re: One very important Quote

[penguinicide]

It is better that 10 guilty men go free that 1 be unjustly imprisoned.

I think Thomas jefferson might have said that. It's definitely from around the same time period.

In this case we aren't even talking about guilt. Not even thoughtcrime (1984). Only the semblance of a personality that might possibly be capable of thinking or doing something that the majority has legislated against.

And this system has the potential to brand and damage their lives as minors. This sort of program, if not abused into insignifigance (which I reccommend to those firmly against it), has alot of potential to createcriminal types.

Take someone at an impressionable age whois trying to develop their personality and tell them that they are acting like a criminal. Create a list or otherwise draw attention to them in this respect. "Non criminal"(other wise known as white collar) elements may tend to shun them. They are then forced towards the lifestyle the program (i hope) is designed to save them from.

I have know people who have gone to prison and drug rehab. One of the most prominent things I have heard is that it was lie school. They learned new/better ways of doing things. The end result? Someone who is more of a criminal, and less likely of getting caught.

Try fixing the problem by starting a snitch line for those who want to report intolerance of someone/somehting diffent.

Re: The benefit does not outweight the harm.

[penguinicide]

It has the potential to save a handful of lives.

It also has the potential to ruin a number of lives a few orders of magnitude greater.
(Think 100,000s)

It also has the potential to take you childs life.

Here's a scenario. A child, identified by the program is suspended by the administrators of the school. His parents make him/her go to counseling. The school kids outside of school taunt him/her. In his/her frustration/anger the child takes out the agression at school upon the kids/administrators with guns/bombs/whatever.

It can be the same result. Either caused by the lack of or the existence of the program. This is not the solution.

Where the leaders go...

[Tau Zero]

However, if there are people out there who want it (and from the attitudes expressed by NC leaders, there certainly are), there are people out there who will build it.

You have to take into account the credibility issue. If Pinkerton has already examined the "geek factor", if you want to call it that, and either tuned their criteria to discount reports of Quake playing (but kept ones of cruelty to animals) or discarded the entire project as unworkable, it would send a very public message to pols and the public. When someone asks "Pinkerton couldn't do this with all the experience they have on tap, why should we believe you when you say you can?" it's going to be a pretty tough question to answer convincingly.

Pinkerton may also be worrying about liability. Suicide is far more common than school shootings, and if a teen is coercively "counselled" as a result of a report passed through Pinkerton, and then commits suicide in despair, the company could wind up facing far more in liabilities than profits. This would be another disincentive for companies to get into the business; just look what liability judgements did to the makers of small airplanes, it pretty much shut them down for years.
--

A cynic's view

[Tau Zero]

All these shootings are caused by media. If these items wouldn't be on the news everyday, they would just start to fade away

Preach on, brother! One of the things that I'm sure is bugging the news establishments is that the news hype over the 6-year-old in Mount Morris (MI) who shot and killed a classmate won't create any more news like it, because 6-year-olds don't read the newspaper and aren't going to become copycats.

Posting this close to the end this late, I wonder if anyone is going to read this...
--

Chilling. Proposal and Warning.

[mattr]

Chilling how your Nazi paradigm is not immediately thrown back in your faces by an angry mass of parents. This will likely be corrected when a lot of introverted Jewish kids in the New York/New Jersey area get turned in by their bullies who may happen to include antisemitic overtones.

Obviously you have it backwards, if anything turn in the bullies before they do physical harm. Make a homepage like that made for bad teachers by kids.. if you do this at all.

The only valid involvement of a security agency is to maintain immediate physical security (i.e. weapons checks, locker contents checks, video cameras in locker rooms (where I got jumped by two knife wielding classmates once myself..), etc. ..Or to provide a significant passive system which enhances overall security while having an essential neutral effect on other aspects of the environment.

I find it hard to believe that Pinkerton is seriously interested in improving the well-being of kids beyond crass, inhumane manipulation but don't let me stop you! You could always hire psychologists, pay for seminars, train teachers, offer help lines for kids, patrol school yards unobtrusively for violence/drugs, and so forth.

The kids who are having a horrible time already know it. Their teachers and parents probably do too and feel powerless (he has to learn to swim). If you are interested in playing a constructive role it may require reinventing your company; your first step will be to can the executives who engineered this soon to be fiasco.. NOW.

What you could do is provide a free anonymous web bulletin board which will let any child or teacher send worries, information about drug sale activities, requests that one or more lockers be unobtrusively searched by faculty or your service, or calls for help. You would reroute this automatically to a local school psychologist who might or might not act on it. Perhaps you could provide a Yahoo-like account that a child could log in to, to find out if someone is considering his or her message. Maybe a dialogue could be started that way.. but almost always it would be with a trained psychologist near the school trained to use the service by you. Since video games and libraries all have net connections these days this is an obvious win for you. You would organize messages relating to fears for personal security, or to possible criminal activity, into an "Urgent" category which would be sent to the head of the school (with your advertising for security devices/services, if you must, directed only to faculty) and your security agency would not touch with a ten foot pole any activity which could possibly be linked to a lawsuit (taken quite broadly, thank you). You will describe clearly what responsibilities the faculty has which you cannot handle, and monitoring the fulfillment of these responsibilities will be your security package toward parents.

I understand your firm's rapacious intent to capitalize on the perceived lack of physical security in U.S. schools and your easy implementation of the Nazi rule which turned children on parents. Your current plans look like quite a good preparation for more advanced methods of turning coworkers on each other, or perhaps building a juvenile potential danger index.. or whatever you call it, kids looking for a way out.. certainly this would be worth a lot of money to some people.
It would seem that your firm's only choice now that the cat has been let out of the bag, is to hire some outside consultants to design you a believable project (probably 180 degrees away from your original intent) which will, yes, effectively contribute to the well being of kids who are in danger.. this not being jocks but their victims. Only success at this new, actually constructive, as opposed to dangerously obstructive, project will spin you out of this one.

The reason? It is just the crest of the Wave that you see in the fatalities. Looking only at the surface you see the bullies as victims. BUT most of the activity is below the surface.. where the victims of bullying and other prolonged psychological warfare have not gotten as empowered or isolated as the Columbine shooters, yet their invisble scars are deep enough to last a lifetime. In a way it's not your fault, you never had to worry about causes before.
As the first group I've heard of anyway that has made any contribution at all to the debate about what to do about our schools, if you play your cards right you may get a ton of allies and it will be a cakewalk. You'll still make all that money you want to earn, and these other volunteers (oh forgot to say they are more important than you guys in solving the problem anyway) will be just that.. free. Now *there's* a dot com company!

Finally it may strike you as fanciful but consider that if a sufficient number of bright kids get victimized unfairly by your organization, with the amount of networking and firepower they could get if really motivated, I mean wrecked, by your system of institutionalized persecution, personally I think life insurance for Pinkerton execs as well as jocks would be a good bet. You could end up creating a real problem for yourselves.

Oh forgot to say, why not forget the schools and patrol the Boy Scouts of America instead. I mean, lead a local chapter for pay, or better yet a Scouts summer camp where things really get out of hand. Kids who join to find a way out like I did get to endure all kinds of dangerous shit like arson, aerosol can bombs, small explosives, infectious matter, institutionalized psychological warfare, and more! ..and could use an adult around who has a vested (monetary) interest in their total well being. Hell, your men could become popular items! The idea that it's probably the same now but with more guns and less innocence around scares the hell out of me, how about you?

Make a big apology ("this dufus on our staff had it all backwards, we confiscated his pension"). Get an advanced website and toll call network up for these kids on your own dollar and maybe sign a constitution with the community at large which guarantees heavy penalties for implementation of a Nazi-toned Solution. Hire a silicon valley investment bank. Then we'll talk about trusting you with our kids.

Psychology of children...

[fuhrcub]

The only question I can think of is how much research was performed by Pinkerton before they proferred the WAVE program to North Carolina (and, presumably, other states/school systems). What I am trying to get that is do they have any idea what modern school is like, what the typical student will have to deal with, and what type of social structures develop in today's schools.

I went to a high school with about 3000 students. In that kind of environment, Everyone was involved in some sort of clique. The atheletic clique, the band clique, the drama clique, etc. The whole emphasis was on conformity. Now say there's someone who doesn't quite fit in to any clique.

Given the nature of the cliques and their seemingly instinctive dislike for anyone who doesn't match what they perceive to be the norm, the person who doesn't belong will eventually be called in. Based on my own experiences and stories told to me by my friends, children, especially in middle school, can be very very cruel to anyone they don't like.

Does Pinkerton realize this???

Katz journalism

[Potatoswatter]

I can't beleive that Katz did this interview, and all he has to write was that he tried to discourage them from doing this. No quotes? No specifics on how they would be changing their policies? Something tells me that Katz didn't take too many journalism classes before he became an "online journalist". This could have been a *very* interesting article, but it's destroyed by vagueness.

Or is he just trying to "hook" us for the report he might write in a few days? In that case, he's just sleazy and hyprocritical...

Where is my mind?
mfspr r3, pc / lvxl v0, 0, r3 / li r0, 16 / stvxl v0, r3, r0

Yet Another Parent Responds

[greyrat]

Yes. I my teen-years I was isolated, anit-social, took drugs, blew things up, and vandalized public and private property. Now I am a talented, albeit boring, member of the corporate IT work force. I play by the rules (mostly) and do what is best for my kids (including lobbying for school uniforms!!).

Now let me point out like every one else here that an anonymous reporting system is the dumbest thing I have ever heard of. The signal to noise ratio will be unbelievable. After WAVE has isolated, intimidated, insulted, and persecuted an even larger group than is currently isolated, intimidated, insulted, and persecuted, the whole program will collapse under its own weight.

So instead of making the teen years *even worse* for everybody JUST DON'T DO IT!

Instead, invest the funds you would use on WAVE to institute improvement programs like Koalaty Kids or just fix the damn drinking fountain in the cafeteria! (unless I beat you to it)

Fix the problem! Don't make new ones!!

Homicidal thoughts are common for teens, study say

[DocJohn]

Press release from Penn State today:

Homicidal thoughts are common for teens, study says

Philadelphia, Pa. -- April 20 marks the anniversary of the fateful day when Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris opened fire at Columbine High School -- the deadliest school-shooting spree in the history of the United States. While their actions were extreme, a new study indicates that their murderous thoughts may not be.

Dr. Peter Crabb, associate professor of psychology at Penn State's Abington Campus near Philadelphia, recently conducted a study, "The Material Culture of Homicidal Fantasies," in which he examined the thoughts of approximately 300 undergraduate students. During his research, which will be published in an upcoming issue of the journal Aggressive Behavior, Crabb learned that nearly half of the participants, most of whom were 18-19 years of age, had fantasized recently about committing homicide.

"The purpose of the study was to explore impulsive aggressive fantasies in normal young people so that we might better understand the acts of violence that occur periodically in our schools and elsewhere," he says, "so that resources can be productively directed at reducing the likelihood of these tragic events.

"Laypeople and behavioral scientists, alike, typically associate homicidal thoughts with psychopathology," he says in the study, noting this includes substance abusers and schizophrenics, among others. "Recent theorizing and empirical evidence suggests, however, that homicidal fantasies may be a relatively normal phenomenon with roots in the evolutionary history of the species."

The professor hopes such research, as his study will help avert future tragedies such as the one at Columbine High School.

In the early days of the human species, for instance, those with more aggressive impulses were more likely to kill others in order to maintain food and shelter for survival. That survival kept those aggressive genes in play during future generations, says Crabb.

Unlike Klebold and Harris, of course, the vast majority of teens will not act on such fantasies. "It is likely that the social norm proscribing homicide effectively inhibits acting out aggressive fantasies to their ultimate conclusion," Crabb says.

Of those studied, 60 percent of males said they had had a recent homicidal fantasy, while the number dropped significantly among women, to 32 percent. The top reasons given for the homicidal fantasies were lovers' quarrels (21 percent), and trivial disputes, such as conflicts with friends, bosses and co-workers, acquaintances, businesses, and teachers (20 percent). Next to bare hands, the most popular weapons in these fantasies were firearms.

Leave some of it to the mental health professional

[DocJohn]

Psychologists and school counselors and other mental health professionals are the only legitimate folks who should be going around diagnosing people. Asking laypeople to do it, and for that matter, teens, is not only dangerous (for all the reasons cited by the many posters above), but also likely to cause more problems than it solves. It is a type of profiling which is being suggested here, and profiling people who may look "depressed" or "dangerous" is difficult for even the most highly-skilled professionals. For everyone else, it's just educated guessing and stereotyping.

And let me assure you, psychologists and other mental health professionals are pretty poor at determining how "dangerous" a person is or might be. We have few, if any, reliable indicators or tests for such decisions; most such opinions are based solely on whether the person has been dangerous in the past (history is the best predictor of future behavior). So you can just throw that one out the door, because even the professionals don't usually do any better than chance in making this kind of determination.

As for depression, yes, that's diagnosable. But so what? There is no research to show that a person who is more depressed is likely to murder anyone else or become violent, but yes, they are more likely to commit suicide. If you have a friend you know is depressed, a good friend will already try talking to them about it. And if that fails, talking to someone else about the situation to seek advice about what to do. Losing friends over suicide is preventable, but not by this sort of program. It can only be done personally, one-on-one, in much the way it is done today.

As a student..

[carinia]

As a Junior student in my local public kansas highschool, I would have to say that not only does the whole idea seem a little shakey, but how many psychologists were on this team that made this idea up? How long have they been out of junior high and high school? Do they know the social interactions of high school students, and how likely this will be used as a tool against other students, rather than a tool for protecting the school?

Andrea

I, personally, lack the vision necissary to see how this would protect students. At my school, the most suicidal people are picked on. They are bugged and teased every day, and no one would call in on them because hey, who is worried about them? They've endured the same torture everyday through out their highschool career, so why worry? Just tease them some more!

Then you have the small cliques or gangs, or just people who dont get along with other people. They dont necissarily try to make trouble, they just try to get along with themselves and not be bothered. That would also include nerds. They might threaten, or yell, or be mean everyonce and a while, but they are far from being extremely outspoken. But they would be called on, simply because someone has a bone to pick with them. Why not call them in, gets them out of your face, gets you your 'revenge' and, *gasp* free money, prizes, etc! What a great deal.

Then, the most outspoken ones. Sorry to say, but most is all talk. I would say that not very many outspoken people actually react to what has happened to them, simply because if they did, they would be the number one suspect. So, you get people calling on them.

So now youve gotten rid of the groupies, the cliques, the loners, the nerds, and the determined ones. Alls thats left is the mindless cows of society that wouldnt SEEM to hurt a fly, but would they? Youll never know on them.. who would call in?

The current school system has a similar thing.. called the school conselour, who is suppose to find the depressed and suicidal ones, without the hype of prizes or cash. Maybe I lack maturity on this subject to see it more clearly, or maybe the company lacks the immaturity. But I dont see how having a toll free number to call in suicidal or depressed teens would help, considering that most suicidal or depressed teens do not have a lot of people that care that much for them. I think it would just further seperate out the 'different' people, because teens are cruel, and we just dont care what the different person thinks, how they feel, or what they want out of life. We just want them to go away, because they are different, and that scares us. At least, thats the way a lot of teens feel.

Re:And the problem there is?

[Rares Marian]

joo r a moron

sank joo

Re:I have a report

[slashdot-terminal]

LOL! my nerdy friends and I used to sit outside the library and play cribbage because, altho we were fair friends with the librarian, he thought cards were the tool of the devil. Sigh.

I am not familiar with cribbage what do you use instead of cards? What area of the world was this? The only people I really find to hate cards are usually really uberconservative religious folks because it allows you to get money for not doing something.

Re:Finally...

[slashdot-terminal]

Finally, someone out there is actually paying attention to the minors out there. Being a minor, I know how it feels. -Z3Penguin P.S First post

Well you didn't get the first post by I know how you feel. Organizations like social services, various school "security" forces and the like are in fact ever present in schools nowadays.

I would ask this of the Pinkerton group.

On what basis does an individual have no right to due process or fair treatment? Also interactions amongst psychological related professions is in fact usually held to the strictest of confidence and on the whole nothing that should be made a general tactic to spear someone that is not dangerous.

Prying into personal affairs of individuals without their concent just because of they way that they act is in fact harassment. Just because the person in question is in fact not a major does not make them without rights. Also on what legal basis do you make claims of labeling a person "depressed" and what "treatment" does that person get to have. I understand that to some extent that the schools are en local parentis whoever don't parents have a say about how their children are to be treated by the system? Ultimately perhaps letting parents talk to their children rather than have them unvoulentarily brought before the judgement seat may be the best approach.

Acting sad/lonely/or depressed is not in and of itself a problem. What should be addressed are concerete things. Like carying drugs/guns around or other known dangerous objects.

Having a particularly plutonic frame of mind is not a bad thing in the least.

Re:How about these Apples.

[dan_linder]

I hope the above article gets it's score upped. Even though it is by an AC, it does spell out what could easily happen to these "borderline" teenagers.
I shudder to think what I would have been classified had this been available 15 years ago. I wore a lot of black, got picked on a bit, had a small group of friends but stayed at home a lot, Friday nights were mostly spent in front of the computer (DEC Rainbow 100A!) conversing with people via a BBS rather than drinking and making out by some hidden road outside of town.

Dan "The Techno-Outsider" Linder

What About The Other Nuts?

[flyneye]

How about D.A.R.E.,who urge kids to turn in
their pothead parents?How about the Scientologists
who bulkmail communities questionaires resembling
the M.M.P.I.(Minnisota Multiphasic Personality
Inventory)in the "interest" of promoting mental
health?Imagine the database they're gathering.
Think about it,Pinkertons are glorified
rent-a-cops.Is this like being just a step up from
a glorified prison guard?Neither one quite cop
material for "whatever" reason.
Doesnt this leave the N.Carolina schooldistricts open to a plethora of potential
lawsuits when these rent-a-cops pathetic narcathon
inevitably falls on its ass?

Questions and problems...

[forgey]

I would like to point out a problem I have with something you said in this post Jon.

You mention something to the effect of 'Kids shouldn't be making these judgements of other kids, trained Psychologists etc. should be.'

I have a problem with that. Trained professionals in those feilds shouldn't be making judgements about kids either, they should be listening to those kids and trying to help them through their problems. Using shrinks to help identify kids who "MAY" be problems then alienating them is just plain wrong. Help the kids, even if they are unresponsive to help. These trained professionals should know how to deal with those types of situations.

Now, to Pinkerton. I am interested in hearing their side of why they think this program is useful and will work. I would like to know their reasoning behind it. I think this is very important in helping them realise why we think it is such a bad idea.

When I was in high school I had enough problems. I know I would have fit this programs 'profile' and all that would have done is make my high school years even more difficult. Being branded an outcast by someone other than my classmates. Being told I am dangerous and need help would have definitely bruised my already black and blue self esteem beyond belief.

What we need are more professional and caring school psychologists and teachers. Give them some leeway to help these kids and I think that some of these already singled-out groups would become a lot happier.

Not everyone needs to be 'well adjusted'. I know I still don't conform to societal norms, but I live a happy life with my fiance and I hold down a good job in the computer industry making a decent living. Don't try to make us all conform, diversity is great! Help the geeks etc. come to terms with being 'different' and help show them it is a good thing!

forge

Some basic questions

[Borealis]

There are some basic concerns that I have over this system. First that it will be used as part of a ridiculous "zero tolerance" policy that will cause a bunch of innocent kids to get into trouble for no good reason. The current zero tolerance policies are silly enough without having anonymous tips factored in.

I'm also worried that any results of such a system would be applied unfairly. If a chess geek gets beaten up by the football captain and threatens to kill him, who gets in trouble? Currently it seems that the chess geek gets kicked out of school. Frankly, I'd rather see violent behavior tolerated less than threatened violent behavior.

Lastly, and most importantly I'm worried about what sort of attitudes this will foster on children. We're talking about kids here, not convicted felons. If we start getting kids used to totalitarian environments, so that they have to watch every single word they say or risk "counseling or discipline" then how will they ever learn to reject it as adults? Frankly I object to the treatment of kids as hardened criminals. Most parolees don't have to watch their speech as much as many kids today. How much of our children's childhood are we willing to take away to protect them?

My first proposal is that the entire program be dropped. Sensing that that is an unlikely outcome, I also propose the following:

I propose that there be no anonymity allowed in the system. Not necessarily that everybody knows that somebody else accused them of something, but that at least somebody at some area of the program can know who is responsible for the report. Those that report a lot of people should have all their reports reviewed and should themselves be subject to scrutiny.

I also propose that both parents and children be notified IMMEDIATELY if a report is made on the child. It is impossible to defend yourself from false charges if you don't know you've been charged. Further, all records on a child should be accessible by either child or parents at any time when requested.

Any report made by a child that does not involve actual violent behavior or weapons should require an adult report as well before any checks are made. Thus if somebody reports that "Tim said he was going to kill John", that should have no repercussions on how a student is evaluated unless a teacher/parent also reports that "Tim has exhibited violent tendencies".

Reports on violent behavior or weapons possession should require actual proof before any disciplinary action is taken. Any kid can claim he saw somebody with a gun, that doesn't mean it should be assumed that they are telling the truth. A school asking parents if they have a gun, and if that gun is accessible to the child would go a long way towards raising parental awareness of the problem without requiring any action from the school.

Reports of violent behavior based on whether a child plays video games, sees violent movies, has metal or goth musical tastes, dresses goth, is gay orientation etc. should be deleted without ever being entered into the system.

Re:America: Long tradition of cherished freedom.

[JSurguy]

Technically we kicked our own arses back across the pond - and at least we only have to get onto one knee when meeting our head of state....

'flood the courts'

[Noer]

If Pinkerton pushes this unconstitutional, prior-restraint monstrosity through, there is a fairly easy solution. Ever hear of flooding the courts? It's when everyone gets themselves arrested. Well, the tactic could be modified - flood Pinkerton. Report everyone you know, yourself included. They'll have so many reports to wade through that they'll be unable to do anything about it.

That said, I want to say why I think WAVE America has no business existing at all. Let's put aside the issues that have been mentioned - that schoolmates are not trained to recognize depression & a tendency to violence; that acting on these reports could amount to unconstitutional prior restraint. Let's say that anonymous phone-in ratting-out wasn't part of the equation.

WAVE America still has no business in public schools, for the simple reason that it pushes conformance to some predefined 'norm' that doesn't include geeks, nerds, goths, individualists, radicals... is America pushing its school system to be more like Japan's, where anyone who doesn't fit the 'norm' is punished? Do we want our suicide rate to match Japan's? Schools should be focusing on education - if we need this sort of garbage to keep schools safe, then let's close down the schools.

What if a student is wrong?

[L0rdV4der]

I'm not sure if this has been asked before, but what happens if a student reports another student, and they are wrong? The student reported will be humiliated, and for no reason.

This system could be used as a tool by the popular to extort the unpopular: "Give me ten bucks or I call you in".

However, this also could be used the other way. I hope that if schools implement this system, it will be able to stop the truly dangerous (the extremely popular bullies/thugs who are on the football team, and have the administration at their beck and call).

Teaching the wrong lesson..

[Paul Neubauer]

It looks like this program would be very effective, but not in doing what is intended to do.

How does one survive this thing? A kind of enforced happiness (or whatever the attitude dujour is) is required. "You don't wanna get sent in? Fake being 'normal'" Sure, it's not easy. And not everyone who needs to do it will be able to and even those who can do it will have difficulty in keeping up the illusion. That added stress will add up and there are at least two ways for it to manifest.

One way is when that charge of stress gets too big and WAVE causes the very thing it claims to treat: an outburts of staggering violence. Congratulations, Pinkerton, you got folks good & mad as hell...

Another way it could turn out is not by violence, but by these people learning double-behaviour as normal. Congratulations, Pinkerton, you've just created a generation of folks who lie without conscience as it is a survival mechanism.

The desire is right, but the means are amiss. WAVE will be partly effective, but when it fails, it will fail spectaculary. It is like searching for time bombs with a stethoscope - it will find the obvious time bombs, but it will also find harmless watches and clocks, and it won't find the timebombs with electronic timers.
(Not the best choice of analogy, but it gets the point a across.)

What will happen when the profile fails?

[Giordana]

My question: What about the inevitable failures? What will happen when a happy, well-adjusted, loved-by-everyone jock shoots up a high school? Are you willing to take responsibility for that?

Some years ago, some high-school football players in Texas (where they're considered gods) viciously killed a cat. Community members resisted punishing the players because they "only" killed a cat. Cruelty to animals is a widely recognized sign of disturbance; along with bed-wetting past age 5 and fire-starting, it is a common sign that a child will be a serial killer. When a member of the "in crowd" fits your profile, will they be evaluated the same way as a "different" student?"

My grandfather's career was nearly destroyed by McCarthyism because he has family in Cuba. If I ever travel overseas, (especially to Africa or the Caribbean), I know I'm very likely to be cavity-searched when I return, simply because I am Black female. I'm also very likely to be pulled over (driving while brown).

We already know that profiling targets innocent people. Just ask the families of Cornell Brown Jr. or Amadou Diallo. WAVE will harm far more students than it helps.

Re:What will happen when the profile fails?

[mistah_monkey]

Unlikely you'll be cavity searched. Travel freely.

So What? Pls explain what a phone call can do?

[JSBiff]

OK,
Now that I've got your attention with a nice controversial subject line. . .Although I do agree with some of Jon's comments about Geek Profiling, I would like to point out that everybody is making lot's of statements about how damaging these phone calls can be. Depending on what Pinkerton does with the information, I suppose it really could be damaging. But if I was Pinkerton, I would use this phone line not to put people in some huge database that brands them for life as a psycho because some kid called in. Rather I would use it as a vehicle for communication with school authorities and psychologists.

I agree with Jon that the psycho's out there are few and far between, and that school violence (well, beyond school-yard fights) is rather rare. But the fact remains that there isn't an adequate system in place to catch the few kids who really _do_ need help. Who really _are_ suffering from clinical mental health problems. The task of a phone line such as pinkertons should be to try to communicate with the school. It is impingent on the school then, to try to contact those students in a non-obvious, non-embarrasing way that doesn't draw attention to them. Because the fact is that such a phone line _will_ have a high noise-to-signal ratio.

That said, I really believe that it would be possible to create a system where peoples' rights and liberties aren't violated, but that gives the kids a chance to be able to talk to someone about a student that they are worried about (perhaps a friend, who they don't want to hurt in a vengeful way, but just try to get someone to talk to them who _is_ qualified to decide if they need help). The problem with talking to school officials is that it _isn't_ anonymous, and so might scare off people who might otherwise report what they think might be someone in need of help.

It has been repeatedly stated that school kids aren't able to determine whether someone needs help. I absolutely agree. However, kids might be able to detect early signs, and start a process that could truly, accurately, determine whether someone needs help before that person slips through the cracks.

I would truly like to see people respond to this, if you have reasonable objections and/or things that I haven't thought of. I am perfectly interested in hearing other opinions. Just, pls, keep it civil and on-topic. ;-)

Lastly, before anyone starts blathering at the mouth about how "He must be on the take from Pinkerton" or "H3's ju5t 4 P1nk3rt0n WH0r3" I'd like to disclaim any and all association with Pinkerton. Before Jon's articles, I'd never heard of them before, I've never worked for them, I don't get any money or have any association with them. I'm just a person who likes to think, and doesn't always agree with the rabid /. majority.

Nobody cares what you or anyone else thinks!!!

[Stephen VanDahm]

I am not a minor and will not be affected by this program, but it still pisses me off to no end.

I'm surprised that the Pinkertons even pretend to be interested in what people have to say.

I'm from South Carolina, and I know firsthand what the public school system's top priority is in the South: self-preservation.

That's right folks. They don't give a FLYING FUCK about education or about the welfare of their students or about their responsibility to the taxpayers who pay their salaries. All they care about is (1) Not getting sued (2) Not losing their funding (3) Not getting investigated.

Likewise, the Pinkertons -- whose history of sleazy, illegal, and brutal deeds speaks for itself -- only care about making money.

That's why these programs exist. The people in the education system honestly don't care if the this stuff works or not -- all they care about is making their own lives easier. Likewise, the Pinkertons sure as hell don't care if the program works or not -- their sole interest is defrauding citizens of their tax money. (Note: No one -- and I mean no one -- does pork-barrel like a Southern politician. They make Congress look like a bunch of sissies and nuns.)

So, as long as this program convinces a bunch of lazy housewives that their kids are safe, the schools make progress towards the three goals listed above. It doesn't matter if the kids really are safe, or if they were even in any danger to begin with. It's all about covering their own asses.

This entire program makes me so angry that I can't even type.

Take care,

Steve




========
Stephen C. VanDahm

I was the inverse of the 'Columbine Jock'

[sleepycow]

Okay a short sotry...... I was, literally, the inverse of the Columbine Jocks... I attended a 1200 student public high school in Northern New Jersey. I started out in a clique of odd kids that were reasonably socially acceptable (Smart, clean cut, quiet, not troublemakers), but I didn;t last 6 months with them. By my sophmore year, I had a few very close friends and thats all. School was a living hell, and I went thru exactly what has been described as the terror inflicted by Columbine Jocks. Then I lucked out. Saw a school administrator type having dificulties with a computer and fixed things up with him. Became friends with him, and we were cleaning out an old storage closet, Tandy 1000's galore. A holler fromt he principal that her PcAnywhere connection wasn;t working and we both trotted by. I fixed the problem, that much I planned on. What i didn't plan on was (accidently) circumventing a rudimentary security script written in VB. Since that day I got a lot of respect and buisness form the school. I went from a borderline outcast, activly playing with the idea of mass destruction in the school, to the Novel network admin. It was like getting a juice card, just like the columbine jocks; key to the tech office, my own desk, keys to the faculty washroom. I got a large state contract for a webpage (www.pvgoals2000.org), and basicaly made the most out of my HS years - I made lots of money, learned to do buisness, because a very good netadmin and HW tech, and probably learned more than the top honours students. Yeah I graduated in the bottom third of my class, and shure I wasn't Mr. popularity. And no, maby it wasnt fair that I had a juice card of sorts. But it is imprant to realise that nothing more than luck and my greed kept me from becoming insolent and violent. So I can relate to the trenchcoat mafia boys, and undertsnad exactly why thsi WAVE program is the shaft. Had it existed in my time, no way woudld I have weezeled my way in to admins shoes, I'd be in therapy. And then I would have very likley picked off a few jocks with my dad's 30.06. Now I live in Canada. I love it; I hope the US gets its head on straight... Sleepycow the expatriot says: Don;t shoot at your friends, family, or dog.

Turn it into a game

[shancock]

Everyone turning in everyone. Flood the system with 'tips'. Encourage everyone to use it, often. Wear the results with pride, a badge of honor. Too much success here will render the results worthless. Flaunt it, laugh at it. Turn yourself in. Turn your mother in. Turn your principal in. Turn the ice cream man in. Organize contests for the best and most submissions.

Re:I Find it Ironic

[Northern Hunter]

> I don't like the fact that these companies are being penalized for selling a product that is legal to sell.

>If, as you say, the tobacco executives are murderers, then prosecute them as such. However, If the government is willing to let tobacco be legal for the reason that this is a free country people are free to consume products they know to be dangerous, then the tobacco executives are not murderers and the government should let the companies alone.

I agree, but have some perspectives to share as well.

Instead of saying 'government', I would rather use a term such as 'society' or 'all the lazy idiots in this country'. It's not some nefarious invisible un-touchable organization that allows things to exist or is responsible for the status quo or how things were, it is the collective actions of all of the people involved in society.

Also, instead of 'corporation', I like to think of a 'group of self interested executives with extremely limited terms', reflecting the fact that 'punishing' tobacco companies today is utterly idiotic. Who are 'tobacco companies'? They are publicly held corporations, whose executives were not in charge 20 years ago. It doesn't "punish" anyone effectivly! It's just all so idiotic.

Oddly, it's what I expect from a world full of idiots.

America: Long tradition of cherished freedom.

[larard]

Traditions like the Salem witch trials? Or more like McCarthyism? or is it the freedoms like letting every idiot get his hands on a gun. Come on guys! We have something like 20 hand gun deaths in the UK per year. When will you realise that Guns do kill people, and they make killing people easy. This is really going to annoy a lot of people (as some think that free software and the freedom to bear arms go hand in hand), but what the hell, if only it was registered members of the NRA that got shot every time I'd be a little happier

Re:America: Long tradition of cherished freedom.

[nowindowz]

I see your point, but the problem is not with kids or tv or games or even guns it is with the PARENTS. As soon I was old enough to hold a gun my father thought me gun saftey and how to properly use a firearm. He also thought me that are only 2 times you point a gun at a liveing creature, Self defence or food, and each of those times I better have the intention of killing it and faceing the conquences(You little pussies that kill your self). Also if I ever killed someone and it was not in self defence the last person I would want to see is my father because I would get my ass beat until the world ended. The population of the US aprox 274,943,494 people. Now I know this is knowing to piss off a lot of bleeding hearts out there but the lives of 6 or 12 or 100 or 2000 or 10,000are worth the freedom of 275 million. I know my life is not worth the freedom of 275 million.

Re:America: Long tradition of cherished freedom.

[GossG]

Wasn't there a shoot'em'up in a small Alberta town (Taber?) a few years back? Taber was less than a year ago.

And maybe in Quebec?Hmm. I hadn't realized that Mark Lepine was a full decade ago. If that's the one you were thinking of, it was a college-level event.

Re:America: Long tradition of cherished freedom.

[Dukman]

Guns don't kill people, I do!
--------------------------------------------- --------

Re:America: Long tradition of cherished freedom.

[DestructioN]

Here here! Finally another sensible person. We have the same deal in Canada, no guns, little crime. (no comlumbines either)

It's great, I don't live with the fact that that person I just had an argument with may have a 357 magnum in their belt ready to blow my head off.

Wouldn't trade it for the world!

Re:America: Long tradition of cherished freedom.

[redelm]

The Salem Witchhunt is part of what gave rise to the American Revolution. But yes, there certainly have been dark periods for freedom in America: The Whiskey Rebellion, Civil War, and Vietnam Draft.

The interesting part is how much _angst_ these episodes have had upoin the national character. Comparative incidents in other countries seem to be accepted with resignation. This is not a path to learning, but to repetition.

As for freedoms, I have no doubt that if America were less free, the rest of the world would be too. It is competition from American and it's freedoms that have actively forced many countries (the UK included) to treat it's citizens better.

America has some of the worst (best?) politicians/officials on the planet. They are remarkably devoid of common/public interest except in speeches. They certainly need threat of arms (your detested 2nd Ammendment) too keep them in line.

Re:America: Long tradition of cherished freedom.

[redelm]

Wasn't there a shoot'em'up in a small Alberta town (Taber?) a few years back? And maybe in Quebec?

I expect fewer incidents of all kinds in Canada because there are one-tenth the people.

I was at my kids school, and was frankly surprised by the "wall of Shame". There were oinly six incidents listed. Columbine was by far the worst, but it's still only two/year. Average murders=5.

Regrettable, but teenage drinking, or even sober driving is thousands of times more lethal.

Re:Dear Pinkertons:

[ChannelX]

Yes but apparently you arent well-adjusted and intelligent enough to not make a statement such as:

I am well-adjusted, moral, and probably finished ahead of 90% of you 'WAVE-approved' sheep.

If you want someone to listen to you I'd suggest that pointing out that you're smarter than they are (which you don't really know) or calling them 'sheep' is not a good way to go about getting their attention.

Trying to set yourself apart by saying you are 'the cream of society' isn't too brilliant either. So youre smart and your family is smart and you make a lot of money? Big whoop. Doesn't make you any better than anyone else.

The point of your post is well taken but losing a bit of the attitude might help just a little.

What keeps people from crashing WAVES?

[ericr]

OK, I know it's not s/w, but what will Pinkertons and the school do if a few of the geeks get together and simply nark out the whole [football | baseball | basketball ] team, or everyone on the homecoming committee? Or the whole school? How will they deal with hundreds of kids being narked out each week? There's not enough pshrinks/ritalin/jails to deal with all the kids who are going to be persecuted under this abomination.

Is this system set up do deal with kids narking on teachers and other school employes who may be dangerous due to drugs, divorce, pedophilia, or exposure to Monica Lewinsky? If not, why not? Sooner or later some techer is gonna snap...

Tell Pinkertons for me that if they ever pull this shit at my kids school, I'll be rewarding my kid for the number of people they nark out each week, too. Only my kid gets rewarded no matter if the victim is mental or not. I'll give my kid $5 for each and every kid who gets reported. And everytime my kid gets narked on, I'll be suing Pinkertons, the school system, and anyone else involved.

Re:The Onion's take on Geek Profiling

[Adam Selene]

Yes, society doesn't like fink kids, or oddballs OK, go back to 1976, and Jr High school for me. I was the slightly short, slightly overweight kid that everyone picked on, to the point I was actually stabbed with a hobby knife in school. THAT was the last straw. Dad decided to take teach me to fight DIRTY instead of "clean" like the good kids are. Well, I'll give you a hint, when an Ex-OSS (Read Special forces for those of you who don't know WWII history) guy teaches you to fight dirty. they tech you to fight DIRTY, remember, when THEY are trained, it's not to hurt, but to KILL. Well, a month or two later, two Seniors decided that they wanted to throw rocks at me on the way home. I ended it. Nope, didn't kill them, BUT I made it REAL obvious to the the leader that I had his life in MY hands, and that I CHOOSE not to kill him. You know what? I went from getting beat up about once a week, to NEVER having a hand layed on me again, because they KNEW what I could do Sigh, I wish I never had to do that, but hell, it worked!

Re:Saudi theory does work

[stang]

If our justice system is as screwed as you say, what's to prevent a cop from pulling me behind a building and putting a bullet in my head?

Precious little. Nearly all cops are good guys, and even the bad cops see many good people in a day's work. You don't think the cops that attacked Abner Louima (and here) or Amado Diallo ran around attacking random civilians for years, do you? So, it's mainly the odds. Of course, if you're white, that helps a lot.

The people were tried in a court of law and convicted.

Ahh, then, they must have been guilty. Even if they didn't do the specific crime they were convicted of, anyone who gets put on trial must have been doing something worth a trip to the big house for.

But death? Even if they didn't do it?

There's a chance that mistakes may be made in any criminal case. Does that mean we should allow all criminals to go free?

Who said anything about letting people go free? Life in prison removes the criminal from our society just as effectively as the electric chair, with the added advantage that we can fix our mistakes if we accidentally put the wrong guy away.

Re:Saudi theory does work

[stang]

And I bet their national crime rates are a hell of a lot lower than America's too.

Of course, not everything that's a crime here in the states is a crime in the Arab world. Not much rape over there -- not because men aren't forcing themselves on women, but because, over there, if a woman has sex it's because she wanted to or tempted the men with her evil ways. In some countries, it's legal for the family of a "tainted" woman to kill her. Not a crime.

And, of course, the secret police do a good job of keeping everyone in their place. You'd toe the line, too, if you knew that you could be picked up and tossed in jail without evidence, without trial, at any time. Wanna bet those actions don't show up in any official crime statistics?

Americans have for far too long taken shit from those elements which society has thrown up in the last few decades, and people want harsher measures.

<sarcasm>Yeah, let's get back to the good 'ol days, when we had lynchings, called Jews "Christ-Killers", and real jobs were reserved for real people -- landowning, white (heterosexual, or at least fully in the closet) men.</sarcasm>

Witness the effects of the zero tolerance policy enacted in New York. The people loved it, and crime went down by a large factor.

You're being a little misleading here. The zero-tolerance policy was for crimes already on the books, and specifically targeted minor, "nuisance" crimes. Research indicates that these nuisance crimes lower quality of life in neighborhoods and lead to further crime. There's a big difference between actually ticketing someone for public consumption of alcohol, loitering, misdemeanor drug possession, etc., and jumping on someone because they fit the profile. Also note that this was enforcment of existing penalties, not harsher sentencing.

true policy which would cut crime - more capital punishment. Locking criminals up costs the US a fortune in prison costs, and it would be far cheaper to return to captial punishment for more crimes.

It actually costs more to kill someone than it does to keep them locked up -- think about the costs of lawyers (on both sides), the judge, court police (who get paid a lot more than a jail guard). I know your answer to this: limit the appeals process. That is wrong. It's nice to think that everyone on Death Row is some total slimeball who is getting what they deserve, but we need to make absolutely sure that they're guilty. Do you know who's on Death Row in most states? A bunch of Ted Bundys? No -- it's some poor (usually minority) guy who's up there for some high-profile crime that the DA got pressured to make sure somebody pays.

Do you think cops never fabricate evidence or lie? Do you think all District Attorneys are scrupulously honest and would never bury information? Of course not -- they're as human as the rest of us. Statistics show that the average rate of wrongful conviction in the US stands at about 2%. I've heard (but have no concrete evidence) that the rate of wrongful conviction in death-penalty cases is higher.

Don't believe this is possible? Go rent the documentary The Thin Blue Line. Go to CNN and read some of the articles talking about how the govenor of Illinois (a death-penalty proponent) felt forced to suspend all executions in his state because "We have now freed more people than we have put to death under our system -- 13 people have been exonerated and 12 have been put to death."

Hell, just skipping the high-profile stuff for a minute, go read about the latest LAPD scandal.

If you are convicted for fraud, or embezzlement, then you should be flogged in public. Think too many people will risk it after that? I doubt it. If rapists were castrated then they would never offend in this way again - and for paedophiles [sp] the rate of re-offending is something like 90% or more.

The problem with this is it doesn't stop the initial crime. In fact, it doesn't stop repeat crimes. Criminals aren't deterred by hefty sentences -- they think they can get away with it. It doesn't matter if I know someone who was flogged for embezzlement -- they were stupid about it, and anyway, I'm smart enough not to get caught. Again, anyway.

Rape, as I'm sure you've heard many times, is a crime of violence, not of sex. Castrate the rapist, and while he may not go around with his dick hanging out any more, just might decide to bash the next girl's head in. Better, or worse?

FYI, the crime most likely to land you on Death Row, murder, has one of the lowest re-offense rates.

Anyway, capital punishment works. And its only the more liberal elements of society, who generally don't have to see how normal people live, who oppose such measures.

Capital punishment doesn't work. It doesn't deter criminals. With very rare exeptions, it doesn't good a good job of providing society with revenge (which is a crappy reason for killing someone, anyway). It costs more. Innocent people die. Wrongful convictions can never be overturned.

If you want to reduce crime, quit making everyone a criminal. Quit equating smoking a joint with some friends in the privacy of your own house with armed robbery. Quit rigging the traffic laws to provide operating income for police departments. Stop allowing cops to act like highway robbers under the guise of the "war on drugs". Maybe we'll gain a little more respect for the law.

Disclaimer: I am not a criminologist, but I am married to one. Most of the information here on crime and criminal theories can be verified by anyone who passed their Criminology 101 course.

But where does it go?

[laborit]

Before making assumptions about WAVE being used to persecute geeks, let's see what they have to say about what happens after you call WAVE.

After your call, the WAVE Line prepares a written report and sends it to the responsible person at your school for review. If you choose to remain anonymous, great care is taken to ensure that neither your name nor any identifying details are included in this report. Your school handles reports received from the WAVE Line in the same manner that they handle reports received through other direct communication channels.

As others have pointed out, there is nothing wrong per se with giving kids a chance to report bullying, threats, and dangerous behavior. The big question is whether the information goes to ignorant, intolerant, "peace through conformity" administrators or to well-trained, sympathetic counselors who can distinguish nonconformity from psychological distress from sociopathy. That's what we need to be asking WAVE. How do they determine who, in the school system, gets the information? Do they have any requirements for training or education? Do they preface the information with sufficient disclaimers and encourage the recipients to verify it and act with caution? Or do they bill themselves as an infallable window into the inner workings of the school population?

They'll have to do a lot to win my confidence after offering corporate partners the chance to "significantly impact the safety and success of our nation's youth, while gaining expansive marketing exposure in the process." Some assurance that they were paying a little attention to the quality of their information's recipients would go a long way.
****

Re:But where does it go?

[Darkenole]

From the WAVE webpage: "By 2002, youth will account for over $1.3 billion of the e-commerce dollars spent. With your exposure to students, as well as, teachers and parents, your organization will gain access to large segment of the buying power in the communities where the WAVE America Program is available." There is the bottom line. It's all about preying on the emotional fears of people to extract as much money as they can. Damn the consequences, there's money to be had.

Certain Unalienable Rights

[Dazed&Confused]

The first amendment of the constitution guarantees the freedom of speech to the citizens of the United States of America. While this right has been infringed to degrees for minors when dealing with public safety issues, this proposal goes over the line.

It was bad enough during the fifties when we hunted for communists that we were absolutely convinced were going to destroy the country. Last time I checked that wild goose chase did nothing but hurt this nation. That hunt only involved a few hundred people. Are we going to search and "report" the hundreds of thousands of high school students who are depressed or a little bit different from the norm? Why are we committing a war against our own students. Have we reached the point as a society where parents, teachers, administrators and security guards really think that it is no longer their job to look after their students? We all know that kids grow up faster today than they did thirty years ago, but if we are saying that high school is so worthless to students that all they have to do is police each other, then it is time to graduate or students early and send them to college at 15 or 16.

Another question for Pinkerton: Has it occurred to them that this hotline could actually spur more violence in the schools they are striving to protect? I could see as a prank one student reports another student to the hotline claiming that he is suicidal or danerous to the school. If the student who was reported figured out who reported him (as you know he would), then he might very well use violence to get back at him. At the very least he would report him to the hotline, turning their hotline into the battleground of teen gangs.

We MUST realize that there are no easy answers to the violence in our nation. It seems that we as a society want more guns, more violent content on television and in video games, yet want less violence in our lives. These are mutually exclusive goals.I am not for censorship, and I understand those who want to have their guns. This is a case of the worst 1% of the population ruining it for the rest of us. But that is something we must understand before we go any further with this ridiculous nonsense.

Re:Term has worked well..

[MicroBerto]

Jon - please do not restrict your domain in this battle. Although you are first and foremost representing the "geeks" of slashdot, you should make this a UNIVERSAL argument for *everyone* that can be victimized by such an organization. Not only would it make you sound less selfish, but it is more wholesome, gives you more heart, and reminds everyone that there are more than one type of people being affected, and definitely more than one type of person in this world!

There are several kinds of people out there that need more help, I think many geeks are the least affected by this, personally. So don't restrict yourself or it'll be as if you're breathing through a straw.

Mike Roberto (roberto@soul.apk.net) - AOL IM: MicroBerto

What WAVE will do with the information

[lweinmunson]

Taken from the WAVE websight. (Did I just break the DMCA?)
Based on protocols established by the school during enrollment, the WAVE Line will immediately notify designated contacts at the school, or in emergencies local law enforcement, of serious allegations made to the WAVE Line. This allows administrators to immediately investigate allegations and take steps to prevent potentially serious incidents.

Ok, who here thinks that the jocks of the world will really figure this out? Most of the jocks in my high school would try to call something like this and say, "Umm, yeah, um, there's this kid, and like, um, he looks like he's, um, like, um, messed up or something, um... I think he might have a gun at home or something, umm, yeah." While the nerd who was just laughed out of gym will call and social engineer the damn line and get the jock's arrested. In either case it doesn't look like anybody's friend. I know when I was in high school I would have loved to have an easy, anonymous way of messing with people. sneaking playboy's into other people's lockers and then leaving a note for a teacher was just so damn much work. No all I would have to do is call an anonymous line? OK, so they can't tell who just called, how may times can I call and report someone using fake voices until I hit the right key phrase to get somebody into real trouble?
I think I just need to win the lottery so my kid doesn't have to go to school here. Maybe if I move to the Caymen Island's I can send him to a good prive school with nun's so he can turn into a normal well adjusted sociopath just like the rest of his family.

Real questions for Pinkerton

[GreyyGuy]

The main questions I have are about how the system will be implimented. We've heard that people can annonomously call in others for fun and profit, but what happens then? What are Pinkerton's reccommended actions?

• Is the child or the parents notifed of the calls or are they quietly filed into school records?
• Do school counselors get involved?
• Is the kid thrown out of school until everything is verified?
• Are the calls, callers, and target of the calls confidential until a real problem is verified?
• Are there reccommended actions for people that knowingly make false accusations?
• What are the actions taken to verify the validity of the calls?

There is also a potentially huge legal side to this. When do police get called in? Who is responsible for the system when false malicous calls are made?

This only seems to focus on one side of prevention, and that is the "turn in a friend, he could be evil" kind. Are there plans for any sort of prevention in the form of annonomous help lines that people can call when they are depressed? Something that won't turn right around and go back to their parents and school officials?

The point I'm getting to is who is this tool supposed to help? The school, so they can say "you can't sue us because we bought this tool", or the kids that need help before something happens.

Pinkertons

[Rogain]

Aren't the Pinkertons just a bunch of armed thugs that sell themselves to the highest bidders? What the fuck do a bunch of yard-bulls, scabs, and company-goons doing in a god-damned school. Fuck those assholes, rough and hard without lube. Make 'em cry!

Childline in the UK

[Legolam]

There is a charity in the UK called childline which gives anonymous support to kids and works to raise awareness of the problems they face and lobbies for constructive solutions.

Check out their website www.childline.org.uk, especially the factsheets on bullying.

I'm sure that approaching the problem in this way would be much more successful than the approach suggested by WAVE.

Reactionism for Profit? An Outlook of Disdain

[signine]

When our children, and our children's children, look back upon these most recent years, they will either laugh with amusement, or gasp in horror. They will not gasp in horror or laugh at the tragedy of Columbine, oh no, they shall gasp in horror at our unthinking reactionism towards it.

Such movements as gun control, school "safety" legislation (such as we see with this Pinkerton situation), and general parenting paranoia are unthought and motivated simply by the gag reaction the media has become so good at producing. "Oh my GOD! Look at what happened on TV Charlie! Kids are dying again!" Desensitation? No, we can't have that, we must put on our soccer mom facade and parade around promoting unrealistic ideals. That is the only way to make us look better than the neighbors.

Kids will always have access to things that kill. If you make guns illegal, only criminals and six year olds that live in crackhouses will have guns. Or anyone else who is willing to step outside the law for one. Yes, you can make things more difficult, but the only people you're going to hurt are the lawful gun owners. Look at what the war on drugs has caused. Yes, pursuits of "justice" are fine as long as they don't directly affect you.

Maybe someday people will have the common sense to think for a few seconds before they start to take a stance on something because the media tells them to. Perhaps someday people will pry the noose of NBC from their cereberum and think for themselves. Unfortunately, that day is not today.
--
If there is a God, you are an authorized representative. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

Prejudice and racism, Black or Netizen, same thing

[Phoenix1]

Comment to WAVE America: If you believe in Martin Luther King jr.'s dream of "all men" being treated as equals, with respect and understanding, continue reading... I have heard of stores that use a system of racial profiling, becasue they think that Blacks and Hispanics steal "they just do". They justify and excuse their prejudice by squaking about how a Black guy in the mall stole merchandise from JCPenney and was caught because of the system. There is no excuse for prejudice. I have also heard of a system of profiling based this time, not on Blacks and Hispanics, but on geeks. The only difference between the two systems is that one is targeting blacks, which is always looked at as wrong, but was once looked at as acceptable, until a man named Martin Luther King jr. stepped in, protested, was sneered, ridiculed and laughed at and changed a Nation. Now there is this "Ku Klux Klan" of the mainstream named "W.A.V.E America" going against the geeks who have already suffered quite enough. Now, it is acceptable to hate others who wear black, like alternative music, play video games and use the net. There may not be a "Martin Linux King jr." yet, but from the lessons we've learned from racial segregation, we have learned one thing...that resistance is unstoppable, and that minorities will always strive for justice and equality as promised by the founders of this nation! Prejudice is more than just White over Blacks, it's any one people prejudice against another people simply for the gift that they are different. go here: http://go.to/netropolis Maybe there is a Martin Linux King Junior, or maybe just a Netropolis Collective...

Very, very disturbing

[PlaidLady]

The warning signs listed on their sites aren't even the ones people should look out for! How about torturing animals? Implications/threats/hints/whatever of sexual assault? Those are the kids who will be more dangerous than a student who happens to be depressed.

As for writing violent stories -- when I was younger (late jr. high/early h.s. years) I wrote a lot of depressing and violent stories. (btw, I am female). It wasn't because I was a violent person; it was because I was depressed, and I didn't understand it. How many fourteen-year-olds understand depression? I didn't know why I felt that way, and I didn't know that it wasn't *normal*, so writing the stories was the only way I knew how to deal with it. I never turned in anything violent, but I turned in many the depressing creative-writing assignment.

Meanwhile, during that time, I was a bit of a loner -- only one or two close friends -- and definitely a loser, reject, etc., with no self-esteem. Not only that, I fought constantly with my mother, so I was often unwilling to turn to her. What if one of the jerks who taunted me constantly decided to turn me in, as a lark? That wouldn't have solved any of my problems!

Wouldn't it be more effective for someone who wants to turn in another to instead talk to them, and maybe be nice to them for a change? Oh, wait, but then they'd look like a dork as well for talking to such a loser.

Sigh. Just when I was thinking things couldn't get any worse for high school students, some hair-brained idea like this comes along.

So my question to Pinkerton is: Do you have ANY clue what you're doing? Do you have any understanding of adolescence? Teen-age depression? The rampant stigmas in high school against being quiet, being smart, liking computers or math, or even just being different? Sure, we'll turn in the depressed kids, and then the ones who complain about the prominence of athletics (because they're obviously subversive), etc. Please, Pinkerton, I want to know. How is this going to help any of the individuals who will be turned in? Because I can guarantee you, it wouldn't have helped me, and I still turned out fine. Like the extremely vast majority of teenagers who wrote violent and depressing stories, I was never any sort of threat to anyone.

Slashdot : New Capacity for Whininess, Bitching?

[Gigant0r]

wah wah wah
jocks beat me up in high school
wah wah wah
i'm a geek who's gonna get turned into the fag patrol
wah wah wah

Shut up, idiots. No one cares about how you got beat up in high school, and quite frankly I find it pathetic. God didn't make you a fucking nerdly idiot with no social-skills, you brought that about yourself. I know plenty of nerds who are friends with jocks, the thing they have in common is that they aren't isolationist, whiny fags. You could learn something from them. Try not to be such goddamned fruits in the future, and you might find you don't get your ass kicked so often.
kisses!#%

Two basic questions

[brennan73]

In my opinion, the two most basic questions that need to be asked are:

1. Is there empirical evidence that a program like this will actually keep a single kid safer? (if so, where have studies been published?)

2. Is there justifiable reason to believe that this program will serve its intended purpose rather than being abused and/or giving false alarms?

I strongly suspect that the answer to both of these questions is "no." As such, bearing in mind the multiple reasonable objections voiced here, WHY THE HELL ARE THEY DOING IT?!?!

-brennan

IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

[bornholtz]

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--

Re:Questions about the past

[jacobito]

Ask the Pinkertons about their company's past. The Pinkerton Detectives, as they were known, were frequently hired by corporate bosses during the turn of the century to intimidate, harrass, beat, and kill union organizers. If I can find some information online, I'll post it here, because it's a shameful history. -jacob

Does this seem phony to anyone else?

[PsiPsiStar]

The pinkertons were cops at the turn of the century who worked for the corporate giants and against the unions. The 'third wave' was a movie about a teacher who decides to show some kids just how naziism 'could have happened.' It singled out and ridiculed the top students in the class. Some of this seems like more than coincidence. But they have a web page, so it must be real.

Pinkerton misery

[heresiarch]

When Pinkerton managed our building's security, we were deluged with false alarms. The alarm system used to be configured to phone the police when triggered, but we had to disable that because we kept getting charged for the false alarms. So much for break-in detection. We told Pinkerton to take my phone and pager number off of the notification list for alarms, but they never did took it off. We sent them printed, paper lists five times without my name, and they never took it off or added new people. I changed my answering machine to tell Pinkerton not to leave messages for me, but they did anyway. We changed security companies, and they fixed all of these problems the very next day.

So imagine if Pinkerton ran an annonymous arrest-a-depressed-person service:

John, a fifth-grader, cries at school when he finds out his gerbil died. Very sad. He starts feeling better after his dad takes him out for icecream. The next day he's met at school by a Pinkerton force of cops and medics. He is immediately injected with Haldol, wrapped in restraints, and hauled off to a locked ward that smells of pee.

The next day or so someone gets around to unstrapping and interviewing him, and discovers that John's gerbil died, and he's not planning to shoot anyone. In fact, he was feeling much better until the Haldol part. The counselors apologize for putting him out and send him home.

The next day when he gets to school, he is immediately pounced upon, shot full of Haldol, restrained, hauled off and interviewed. He explains the they already picked him up once and found no problems. What gives? The counselor explains that he was on the list. Probably no one bothered to cross him off. He is invited to send a letter explaining why he shouldn't be on the list. He does so, and nothing happens for a week. John and his family breathe a sigh of relief.

The next week, Haldol-wielding goons are back! When the councilor finally gets to John, he asks why he's still on the list when he sent in a letter. The councilor shrugs and says that he doesn't have authority to take someone off the list himself. John must send the letter.

John's starting to get depressed. The gerbil business is done with, but he's really behind on his homework, and all of his friends are making fun of him.

John gets tackled by Pinkerton one more time. This is just too much. He steals a friend's father's 9mm and two boxes of ammunition. Sneaking the weapons and ammo into the local pet store (under a trench coat, of course), he opens fire at the gerbil cages. Unfortunately, John is so afflicted with tardive dyskinesia at this point that he misses the gerbils and accidently mows down thirty second-graders on a field trip, a cop, and a nun.

This will be the tragedy of WAVE.

These "Warning Signs" are natural reactions.

[Murmer]

The list says:

• Hits or bullies others.
• Expresses uncontrolled anger.
• Has unlawful possession and use of firearms.
• Displays intense intolerance or prejudice.
• Has excessive feelings of isolation and/or rejection.
• Conveys violence in writings and/or drawings.
• Uses drugs or alcohol on campus.
• Makes threats.
• Suddenly has bad grades or little interest in school.
• Is easily angered by minor things.

Firearms aside, these all seem to me like predictable reactions to being bullied or ostracised. Somebody being bullied/alienated at school is perfectly justified in feeling angry and rejected, because they have been rejected. And what are the odds that anyone will be interested in getting good grades at that point?

Who wouldn't become intolerant or feel isolated in that environment? And what teenager, what anyone wouldn't think about some kind of revenge?

"Fix the symptoms" is what this says. Don't sweat the disease.

--

Serving ALL the students

[MedBob]

You said: ...standardized education hits the middle of the bell-curve and ignores, or is actively hostile to, any more than a standard deviation or so out. That is to say public education satisfies it's demands for about 69-78% ... Perhaps the answer is to provide parents with vouchers to select the school that best fits their child's temperment and needs. Wow, what a concept!

Re:Serving ALL the students

[Morgance]

If I recall correctly, that's been tried already, for this school year. I forget where, but it was on the news not too long ago that a court had ruled that they couldn't do that. Those vouchers were, again IIRC, for private schools. Now, if they were for public schools with different emphasis (pl?), that might be different. But, again, that's easier said than done, and is going to raise many problems, legal and otherwise, before something of that nature could be enacted.

I know from personal experience that a small, private school, with teachers who know every single person there, can be a wonderful place for those who need personal attention. But some students thrive in big schools and would be miserable with the increased demands that teachers can put on you if they know you well. So, theoretically, you could create a series of public schools - some small and some larger - so everyone's needs could be met.

I see two problems with this - one would be that it's going to cost tons of money, and require many more teachers than are currently in the system. Schools have enough trouble trying to find good teachers already. The second problem would be that it is still the parent who is deciding which school the child will attend, and it may suit the child no better than the current system. "Parents want what's best for their children" may be true, but their idea of what is best does not always make the child happy. How often, growing up, did we hear things like, "It's for your own good" even when it was making us miserable? It would be no less true with a system of vouchers than we see now - but it could certainly help *some* of those depressed, stressed, lonely kids.

I also know from personal experience that being in the wrong school, forced into a social situation, and perhaps regime of study, that you don't want or like, is a stressful situation, and, at least in my case, resulted in a bad case of depression, which I pulled out of when I changed schools. And mine was at the college level! I wasted two long, miserable years before I found my out - dropping out was *not* an option. If, during that time, someone had pointed me out to some "authority" as a possible source of trouble (I could count those who really knew me there on one hand), they'd probably not have found anything truly wrong with me, because I sure as heck would not have told them what was wrong!

That's another aspect of this whole issue that bothers me - if you're pulling these kids in, who talks to them to see if they have problems? Is it going to be someone they trust, or is it going to be some sort of authority figure? So much of the time we are unwilling to open up to those we don't know or trust. If called into the office of the school councilor, how many students are really going to let on that there is something wrong? The more you poke and prod, the more they will bottle up, or the better they will lie. It becomes just one more bit of stress in their lives, one more sign that the world is against them. To get anywhere, it would almost *have* to be someone they really trusted and looked up to, someone who would really listen to what they were saying, and respond to help them, showing that they truly care about the individual for the individual's sake. Anything less may just make the problem worse.

I don't know what a good solution to this problem would be - but it is certainly not having people rat each other out. As long as this country has been around - longer! - we've been systematically taught not to implicitly trust the government. I think that's a healthy attitude, one that has had a great impact on our history. Programs such as this go counter to that - what we don't need is a generation of youngsters who grow up thinking the government can solve all their problems!

Just my opinions, of course.

Morgance

Pinkerton...

[Eneff]

Yeah, I know it's been over a hundred years now, but weren't they the ones hired to break the union dissidents in the late 1800s/early 1900s? I seem to remember this from history class. The more things change, the more they stay the same...

Pinkerton has to be the apex of inanity

[Daimaou]

I find Pinkerton's solution to be offensive in so many ways.

Pinkerton is saying that they will provide a number that kids can call anonymously to turn their peers in for being different. For doing this, there are fabulous prizes to be won. How can you reward someone anonymously, and how do you verify the truth of a child's statement without putting the turned-in-victim though a period of psychological torture, whether he/she's "guilty" of being different or not?

When I was in high school there was a young girl in my neighborhood who was known for her wild stories, and imagination. One day, when she was in 5th or 6th grade, the school put on a program about abuse and such. She piped up that her dad touched her in "those ways" all the time. The people putting on the program immediately gave her their full panicked attention (as those involved in witch hunts are wont to do), and due to that attention her stories began to grow.

To make a long story short, the father had NOT done anything to his daughter and this fact was proved beyond a doubt. There was no medical evidence to back up the girl's stories and the father wasn't even around during the time the majority of her stories were supposed to have happened since there was a court order for him to stay away from his family during this investigation.
My point is that the mother and father of this girl went through hell for several months (and were separated for those months by a court order) before substantial proof was gained to prove the fathers innocence and that the girl was lying.

Those turned in by their peers to 1(800)TEL-PFSL (Tell Pinkerton's Fascist Snitch Line) are guaranteed to suffer similarly.
I believe many innocent children will suffer at the hands of Pinkerton should this be allowed to take place. This plan defies common sense and decency and has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with acquiring more money for Pinkerton.

Another problem I have is that the government is all for it. This is not their business and they shouldn't be involved in any way. In my opinion, if the government were really concerned about our children, they would drastically cut taxes so that both parents wouldn't have to work in order to live. One parent could stay home with their young ones and teach them how to act in society, amongst other things. As it is, many kids grow up without such guidance. You can't expect a child to learn to live well in a society and play well with others if you never teach them to do so. Pinkerton is not the answer, a family is.

Hit them where it really hurts

[thinmac]

The big question for me is what do they get out of it? They're not going to make any money by giving away t-shirts to kids who rat out people at school. Do they still make money if people don't call in? Do they only make money if the schools decide to hire them?

Re:The "warning signs"...

[acfoo]

Anything Else Harmful to You or Your School".

This was definitely my favorite.

(Phone rings at WAVE headquarters)

Pinkerton: Hello, this is the WAVE line, what is the problem that you would like to report?

Student: Well, one kid in my class doesn't participate in the pep rallies at school-- do you think this could be the sign of danger?

P: Well, is it hurting the school?

S: Of course, I mean there's a big game against Central this Friday and the team needs everyone's support. I'll just die if we don't win...

P: We'll alert the authorities.

one question

[daevt]

if i had one question, i think that it would have to be "what are you going to do with the names once you get them?" it hardly makes sense that they would sit on them until something happened than pull out the list and say "he's on the list!". but i really must wonder if this will turn into an ugly case of 'thought crime', for those of you who haven't read 1984, thought crime is something you cant prove you didnt do, any devient behaviours or thought get reported and you are essentially dissappeared by the appropriate authorities, also, go read the book. but i just think that unless they are gunna violate constitutional rights, that they have no reason to compile this 'black list'. and i must admit that its more than a little scary that this sort of KGB crap is leagal.

i think this is a story i will be following very closely.

Question for Pinkertons

[cprincipe]

Given their history of strikebreaking in the railway and mining strikes at the end of the 1800's and beginning of the 1900's, how can they be relied upon to conduct this program with an eye to doing anything except reinforcing the status quo?

If I remember correctly.....

[browser_war_pow]

Pinkerton agents played a big role in the civil war as spies for the union. They were partially responsible for prolonging it because they gave the union commanders false info on the strength of the confederates. Also if I remember correctly they were used as strike breakers for a while by the big corps.

Re: worked well -- yes, but not in this scenario.

[Mike Micelli]

I don't think you're seeing it in the right context. Geek and faggot may not be appropriate, but think about the emotions evoked when the term 'gay bashing' is used as opposed to 'beating up faggots'. The simple fact is, because of how horrid the term 'gay bashing' sounds, it's a federal crime.

Amazing that terms that mean the same thing can be most effective when worded differently. I believe that 'geek profiling' sounds ominous enough to make people pay attention to this half-witted program/pogrom/witch-hunt that Pinkerton is about to unleash upon our school system.

Re:Dear Pinkertons:

[eudaimonilux]

And on top of it all, you are such a lovable person. I'm sure the people at Pinkerton will be very receptive to your comments after you have referred to them as "sheep". It never ceases to amaze me how members of the Slashdot community, supposedly some of the most intelligent people in the world, can be so mind-numbingly stupid.

Re:Bring me the head of the football team captain.

[norkakn]

i have found that there too reasons that harrassment occurs in schools 1: because the harrasser feels threatened by the talent/knowlege of the harrassee 2: because the harrasser feels that they have something to prove to their peers and can project this byt picking on ones percieved to be smaller

Re:Turn em' in

[RickHunter]

A good way to fight against this. Ignore or make fun of the jocks/bullies. Works well for me. Or refuse to help them with ANYTHING if they harass you. You've got a mind, they (generally) don't. Use it.

-RickHunter

I have a suggestion for Pinkerton & co.

[Count Spatula]

How about removing the anonymity? Give the accused students a chance to confront their accusors ("I don't talk to you, drekhead, because I don't *like* you! That's why I seem distant!"). Surely the anonymity allows for major abuse by malicious students (which were, in my high school, almost invariably the rich, popular athletes and those whose parents were societal elites.)

Question

[Ghost-in-the-shell]

How will Pinkerton work around the possibility that a revengeful student may target someone based on that very fact "revenge"? This could cause some serious issues, since an after effect could be harassment and not identifying a potionaly dangerous person. The whole system smells of control and restriction of personal expression as oppose to targeting dangerous and harmful students to help them. Another issue is what role will the local guidance Councilors have? The principal? PTA? Pinkerton also has to becareful in how they handle the person identified. Finger pointing (weather it is public or private) could cause a "normal" student to become reactionary and possible harmful to the themselves or the people around him/her

The Wave

[G'kek]

Anyone else ever seen that movie called "The Wave" about the high school teacher who sets out to show his students the unfairness of segregation and winds up instead creating a divisive naziesque cult--complete with straight arm salute--in his school? Seriously disturbing.

When I first saw this topic, I assumed it was a joke from April first, and I just missed the initial post or something. That it's true...well it saddens me deeply and leaves me feeling deeply frustrated.

I was part of the geek crowd in middle school, and then part of the mainstream in high school. So I know both sides of the coin, and I can easily imagine thousands of simultaneously realizable hells coming out of this program, and not a single utopia. This kind of a program pushes false positives, with no real indication that you wouldn't get enough false negatives to make the process not just oppressive, but useless into the bargain!


AND LET IT RING FROM THE ROOFTOPS:

Re:The Wave

[rjamestaylor]

My thoughts exactly... How ironic.

Yes... use England as a moral compass!

[markguy]

It's always interesting to hear folks trot out that 'hand gun' deaths statistic. As if it's the only weapon ever used... But overlooking that neat bit of statistical manipulation... what do the Irish and Scottish members of the 'UK' have to say about the shining traditions brought to them by the English? Folks used to be hung 'by the neck until dead' for being bards in Ireland just to prevent certain songs from inspiring the locals to... well, whatever it was supposed to inspire them to do. Dance, maybe? And I do believe I've heard of this place called Belfast... many handguns there? Or are fully automatic assault rifles pretty much the weapon of choice? We may let every idiot 'get his hands on his gun', but I'm hard pressed to think of any idiots we've let take them from our collective hands. Many of those idiots tend to have ordinal numbers after their first names... perhaps you're familiar with a few of these? But to be sure, I do NOT judge any person from the UK to be a land-grubbing, wife-raping, inbred bastard. Nor do I expect some of the more amazing morally bankrupt episodes of England's past to indicate behavior of your current society any more than I expect anyone to judge me and mine based on past American travesties. And you may not agree with our Constitution... that might be expected even, considering the history of our countries. Don't move here would be my advice. I can't claim to live in a perfect country, but I don't point out glaring flaws in other countries to make mine seem somehow superior. I will take comfort in the fact that when your post is viewed by the majority of folks familiar with American history, the overwhelming thought is going to be "Didn't they fight a war over the creation of their country? One that was, in principle at the very least, solely based on freedom?" But what really concerns me is that I don't see the point of your post. I'm sure you had one other than bashing America. I mean, we're talking about the exploitation of a class of people that are historically incapable of an adequate defense of themselves and least experienced at dealing with the forces arrayed against them. So surely you came to offer some help/advice to them... even to support the program in question. Or are you saying that due to our 'long tradition' we should abandon the fight and take to the sidelines to view the fallout? For the record (and to segue back to the subject at hand), I can't think of anything more degrading (on so many levels) to the average teenager than this program... short of being forced to pose nude for skin magazines based on the recommendations of their fellow classmates. And I'll fight any such legislation that subjects anyone to this sort of horror, whether or not I live in what you deem an ideal society...

for profit and accountability??

[tokengeekgrrl]

The 2 most obvious problems with the WAVE approach are the profit motives of both the students and the company. Students being rewarded for being anonymous? How does that teach personal responsibility?

What I find even more disturbing is that Pinkerton is a business which means their bottom-line is profit driven. In order for the WAVE to be successful, won't it need to prove itself as being able to determine who the "troublemakers" are - even if none exist? What accountability is there to guarantee that the company isn't going to alter profiles of certain students?

In my opinion, the likelihood of the WAVE being abused by either the students or the company is inevitable.

- tokengeekgrrl
"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions

Re:WAVE what is in a name...

[dargon]

WAVE = Working Against Violence Everywhere

Giving stupid ideas kewl funky names is only one way of many to make stupid ideas look great to the masses. If it's got a neat name, it must be good. If only more people researched the ideas behind this sort of thing before jumping on the bandwagon, there would be less of this sort of thing happening. Hell, right now my Finacee's brother is currently suspended from school because some kid didn't like his appearance or something and said he was uttering death threats. He's into goth and has a slightly morbid sense of humor. Unfortunately, people like to believe the worst when it's presented to them.

When they came for the homosexuals I said nothing...When they came for the Blacks I said nothing...When they came for the Jews I said nothing...Now they have come for me and there is nolonger anyone left to say anything.

I remember Highschool...

[Saidin]

Sure, I was the "smart" kid, whose parent was an administrator in the school system. So, some kids didn't like me, and would pick on me. I would often show up outside of class early, after lunch because I had nothing better to do, and I remember once some "older" kids came by and decided it would be funny if they licked their fingers and smudged my glasses. For the longest time, I never understood why some people didn't like me, it really hurt.

So, then I transferred to a gifted and talented school, and there was no more problems with the other kids, none of us really liked sports, and we all came from close to the same background. The administrators on the other hand were a different story. This was a school on a University campus, which meant we were all staying in dorms, so they felt they needed to give us a bunch of totalitarian rules to keep us in line. I thought the rules were wrong, so I broke them, and when I quoted the constitution of the United States, and of the State in my defense, boy did that piss them off. So, I dropped out. Called my parents at 4am, balling my eyes out, didn't know what to do, and my parents got in their car at 4 am, and drove 2 hours and picked me up and took me home. Then I went to college, and got my BS and MS in electrical engineering.

What's the point of all of this? Basically that things could have been much different. If I hadn't had loving supportive parents, I might not have made it. That's where all this has to start. You want me to rat out depressed teens? Ok... It's all of them. Every single one. There are too many hormones, and too much pressure for them not to be depressed at some point. I know we like to talk about how tough it is for "geek" or "different" teens, but the truth is that it is also really tough for the "popular" ones as well. Often they are under pressure from their parents to be popular, they are under pressure to be the best football player, to be the winner of the beauty contest, to be whatever.

If you want to stop kids from having problems, there are really only two ways. One is to promote open communication so that they know they are all going through the same things. They all have hormones running through them a million miles an hour, they are all confused, and they all have their problems. The other way is to give every teen a set of caring and supportive parents, who help their child discover who they are and what they want from life. BOTH of those solutions start at home.

To try to get back on topic... Implementing something like Pinkerton is proposing only makes establishing open dialog between teens that much harder. It's already hard enough with the stigma that our society puts on talking about our feelings, and sharing our experiences with each other. Why bother, when you can just call a number, and get that "poor disturbed" kid some "help".

REPORT THE PINKERTON CORPORATION!

[Jovian]

This wave program has as it's goal to rid Amerika of dangerous and harmful influences to the people of Amerika, right? Can anyone name a bigger threat than the Pinkerton corporation itself? 8D Report Pinkerton corp. to Pinkerton corp! This is what they want, and, yes, they're right, people should know about this! Take back our schools! THEY ARE YOURS AND MINE!! They're for students: all fo them, not just the ones we like, and not just the ones that the "experts on humanity" of psychiatrists, psychologists, counselors and private corporations think should be there.

Former depressed misfit/outsider writes...

[vilms]

As pathetic adolescents we've all been "The Outsider" and considered ourselves different, excluded, misunderstood etc. With some it results in a tendency towards angst-ridden existentialist literature, others get lots of guns/ammo and shoot up their classmates. In the UK we don't have the latter option available to us, perhaps THAT is what U.S . society should be concentrating on...

Re:Former depressed misfit/outsider writes...

[vilms]

duh... The Outsider...hey, it's early.

Somebody may have said something similar but ...

[irksome]

I am a student in a somewhat large (2200 students) high school. I am known as somewhat of a nerd, but I am not excluded because of it.

I play hockey in addition to writing C code and helping to administer our school's network. I am not a very flashey dresser, I don't even think I own anything with a Polo/Hilfiger/Gap/American Eagle/Abercrombie&Bitch label on it. Most of my wardrobe is Jeans and t-shirts.

I am not in any of the "in-groups" at my school, but I'm not excluded from them either. I can have a pleasant conversation with almost anyone in the school, whether they're jock, preppy, nerd, gangsta, goth, or other. I am not ostracized for being able to fix network problems, I'm not called names because I can write my own games for the TI-83 (our school provides calculators for us).

I read about what happened at Columbine, but I'm not scared to go to school. It's not that I don't think it CAN happen at my school, I think that my school is too diverse to let it happen. To illustrate my point, the other day at lunch, I was talking amongst a group of people that included a teacher, 2 jocks, a few gangsta-wannabes, a goth or two, a preppy, and myself. We weren't discussing the latest math test, we were talking about how we thought one of the (african-american) principals was racist (against whites, particularly white females). People from all walks of life were sitting and calmly discussing racism.

Yes, our administration has done some paranoid things, such as installing big yellow gates (that are never shut) across the driveway. They have started requiring all teachers to wear photo ID badges. These policies strike me as absurd, because at Columbine, along with other school shootings, the people who shot were students, not outsiders.

My school administration has also started responding to anonymous tips about "suspicious" behavior. I have a friend who was called out of class, patted down, had his car and his house searched (without a warrant) because somebody had anonymously told a counselor that he had a gun. After all the searching, all that was found was ... nothing. My friend was, needless to say, very angry. If Pinkerton's plan (as currently written) does manage to get implemented, more of the same will happen. I am totally against this plan.

Re:Term has worked well..

[sredding]

You'll also find that the term "geek" means something entirely different for chickens and snakes.

How can anonymity and incentives co-exist?

[Jbrecken]

I looked around on their web page, and couldn't see how it is possible for a student to anonymously report someone, and still receive WAVE merchandise or cash as an incentive? If WAVE knows where to send the prize it's not very anonymous, is it?

Ok, so maybe they mean "anonymous" in that WAVE won't tell anyone who tipped them off. Then why are they giving away prizes with the WAVE logo on them? Suppose some scrawny kid reports a bully to WAVE, and WAVE sends him a T-shirt. Wouldn't wearing the shirt serve to point out to the bully who it was that turned him in? What's the point in giving out prizes that you'd have to hide?

the root of the problem.

[archduke]

Without bashing Pinkerton, whose change in direction if sincere is to be applauded, I'm not sure anything short of canning the project would suffice. What was Pinkerton and Wave initially trying to accomplish ? any kind of project classifying or tagging indivuduals is a complete disregard for basic liberties. Add in the part that it is in part backed by private-enterprise, and that evaluation criteria are based on anonymous informants, 'headhunting' cash rewards, and that the results are non-public and completely obscure to the targeted individuals and the public at large. And what with the Baseball caps and T-shirts ? - "Do you want them with or without swastikas ?" If this some misguided attempt at positive-PR, these people have a lot to lear about schoolkids. Fact is, no kid would ever dare wear any kind of paraphenalia that would so 'geeky', if you pardon the irony. Any kind of profiling violates the "innocent until proven guilty" axiom of justice. In criminal law a person is only supsect if a crime has been committed. Why should it be, that for a potential threat, normal procedure be more repressive than in the event of real crime ? If a kid posesses a firearm, sure he/she should be denounced. But that is a criminal offense, and we already have mechanisms to deal with this. If somebody gets bullied or threatened, similarly, pressing charges is always an option. That is the way the adult world functions, and we need a system for children that mirrors this civilized process. Children learn by example and abhor hypocrisy: let's not confuse them with a system that preaches bigotry and witchhunts. As in most problems in America, we just need to follow the greens to get to the root of the evil. The real bug in the system is usually at the institution level, where shools ignore or suppress kid problems in order to protect their reputation. What is needed is more money to school counsellors, educators, legal aid, and independant ombudsmen who will be capable of pushing these issues and work with appropriate authorities despite a sometimes non-cooperative schoolboard.

Re:Accountability

[Gone Jackal]

Easy: if they don't know who you are, how are you going to get your t-shirt?

reporting suicidal tendencies

[waldeaux]

One of the things that hasn't been mentioned that occurred to me today while reading up on this thread is that the incidence of suicide attempts among teens is three times more likely among non-heterosexual teens.

A program like WAVE has at its fundamental core, the belief that all students are basically the same: it's the ones who are out of the ordinary who have to be watched, profiled, and who are the ones likely to cause trouble.

How long would it be before such a program began targeting kids who were already ostracized for their orientation (remembering that the overwhelming number of US states do not even prevent discrimination on the basis of orientation, let alone outwardly offer any support for non-heterosexual teens!) are singled out further?

I fear that programs like WAVE could end up making things much MUCH worse than better.

But what if...

[Dman33]

(Disclaimer: I am not making light of your very insightful post. I just had to say this!)

So what happens to a minority male 17-24 yr old that wears black, plays video games, and makes less than $15,000/yr?

Tough world for me! (Well, I am not a minority, but all the rest has applied during at least one point of my life.)
Seriously though, you make a good point.

Capacity

[heikkile]

Here's a question. I admit I haven't studied the propsed program very well, and that as an European the whole idea upsets me. Anyway:

How do you at Pinkerton plan to allocate resources for filtering out bad tips (individual or organised harassment, pranks, etc.)? And, assuming that you do have sufficient resources to effectively filter the calls (impossibility of which has been discussed in other messages), are the resources used for this in any decent proprotion to the resources assigned to actually helping the students?

Heikki Levanto
Copenhagen, Denmark

I don't believe it.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

I have just read an entire bit by Katz... and I (pretty much) agree with everything.

*looking out window for flying pigs...*

What you might consider asking them is if they intend to offer something similar for turning in preppie and jock kids who routinely abuse, rape, assault and otherwise make life miserable for their fellow students. Transgressions of such a repugnant nature happen every day and schools or administrators seem to be perfectly content to allow that to continue. But God/Gods/Allah/etc. forbid some student wear all black and listen to Agent Orange or The Sex Pistols!

Re:Question from a european point of view

[Leto2]

Do KGB, Stasi, Gestapo and Sekuritat ring a bell to you?
<p>
Well, it had to happen.
At this point in the discussion the <a href="http://www.science.uva.nl/~mes/jargon/g/godw inslaw.html">Godwin's Law</a> comes into action:
<p>
<em>
<b>Godwin's Law</b>: prov. [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler
approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis
has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper
bound on thread length in those groups. </em>

Re:How about these Apples.

[Thermodyne]

Almost like the story of Francis Farmer.
Francis does no interviews with the press, the
press begins a rumor that Francis is insane,
Francis is put into an asylum on false charges,
Francis becomes insane.

Re:KISS

[Dolohov]

My question is, why are you punishing these kids for being different?

The thing is, they probably don't see it that way at all. They will most likely come into this under the impression that if a kid is reported who happens to be 'normal', then that kid will be quickly determined to be OK, and sent on his merry way.

You and I know that this is not the case. We know perfectly well that anyone considered 'antisocial' will be called in, as well as unpopular, 'weird', geeky, and similar kids. Now that VA Linux has its advertising list, what happens? What do people want to happen? Are we talking, "Lock them all in small iron boxes for the rest of their lives" or counseling, or what?

Personally, if the attitude is right, this could be a fantastic way of picking bright students out of a crowd and giving them a lift. Pointing them to scholarships, helping them identify their particular skills, and -- if they really are unhappy -- getting them the hell out of there and into gifted programs elsewhere.

I'm saying that there's a way to do this without adding stress to the kids being targeted. The stress is coming from being different? Don't change them, try to place them with their peers (Private school? Early entrance to college?) or provide them with things to do more suited to their interests and abilities.

Corect me if I am wrong

[mpost4]

I have a question on the following statement from the artical: "It offers incentives (caps, T-shirts, cash) to students who call a toll-free number and anonymously turn in classmates they believe to be depressed or dangerous. " How can you get the incentives if you do it anonymously, how would they know who to give it to. So is that not a contradiction?

Right track, wrong horse?

[marshall11]

The idea of encouraging peers to let counselors know when they think that a classmate or friend might be in trouble (or ready to cause it) is a fine idea. Too often, problems are never reported to the people who may be able to solve them. Granted the problem also lies with administrators and counselors who don't or can't act on that information, (we've all seen and been a part of that situation) but getting kids to talk about concerns is an important step. There are several very good issues here, but one that is important to me is: who is behind this, why have the Pinkertons Services Group (obviously part of the infamous Pinkertons) decided to take up this cause? (NOT MY "OFFICIAL QUESTION!) Why did _we_ wait until it was white kids killing other kids? Is this as big of a problem as it seems like? I once had a professor argue (this may even be an established theory in social science) that "the news" reports things that are rare or uncommon. That's why it's news. Consequently, the more you hear about something (up to a point) the more rare it is. Anyway, getting back to the Pinkertons, I see three problems: 1. Once again we're seeing public (and yes, private)institutions of learning turning to the private sector for solutions to supposed "problems." If you don't know where this is headed already, think about Utah's recent measure to reduce or kill funding for libraries that don't use filtering software. North Carolina sees different, "at-risk" kids as the problem and is calling on Pinkerton to provide the solution. Is the private sector the place to go when human rights are an issue, perhaps even, at stake? The Pinkertons first interest is self-interest - not the public interest. 2. How will North Carolina get it's schools to fall in line with Pinkerton's WAVE program? Are we looking (once again) at public funds being dangled like a carrot? Why can't schools implement their own programs? Why can't NC give funds to promote local action? Charter schools work similarly - public funds, but with a private-sector mentality on results. 3. I think the history of the Pinkertons speaks poorly on it's ability to serve the public good. As citizens of America protected their lively-hood by forming unions and organizing to shut down factories and industries that were cruel or unfair, the Pinkertons were hired by the owners to break picketlines, re-open factories, protect private-interests. My official questions is, "How can the Pinkertons solve the problem of violence in schools, better than the schools and communities themselves?"

What about North Carolina?

[marshall11]

Everyone is behaving as if the Pinkertons have already won this insane battle. The truly insane thing here is why our state governments support the idea of anonymous reporting on minors by minors! THE STATES ARE THE ONES WHO ARE BUYING THIS PROGRAM. They are the consumers whose demand will make it successful or not.

For the Pinkertons: "Why do you think North Carolina supports the idea of a society where kids report other kids for being different? Are other states eager to sign onto this gestapo mentality?

Let me know which ones so I can be sure not to visit.

A few points

[M/U]

Perhaps the saddest aspect of this story is that such a system is more likely to make matters worse, not better, and the fact that the type of violence it purports to prevent is rare and on the decline.

I once attended a lecture by Elliot Layton, a world-renowned expert in crime. One of the things I found particularly interesting about his lecture was that in general, violent crime has been on the decline for over a decade (at least in Canada and the U.S.), yet the general populace and the media perceives it as being high. My point is that this sort of profiling system is completely unecessary. Yes, columbine was a horrible tragedy, but such things are rare. Certainly there are other, much more frequent problems that need to be dealt with at the very least.

Another thing that bothers me about this system is that it focuses on one particular aspect of the perceived problem, and ignores many others. Where's the snitch line to report bullying, which is far, far more common? Why is it that the introverted and socially maladjusted has to be picked on at the institutional level as well? Where's the profiling system for the ever so common drunk-driving date-raping teenager? Most importantly, why are we trying to ruin the lives of these people instead of trying to help them?

Many kids who have a hard time in school become quite successful when they finally move on to better places such as university. This system may very well prevent that by taking opportunities away from kids with a lot of potential who just need a little time to get their lives under control. That, perhaps is the biggest danger - ruining the lives of kids before they've even had a chance to get somewhere.

Speaking of correct attributions...

[frost22]

Hmm... while talking about correct attribution, we won't forget the guy in question actually had a real name: I think you were talking about Gaius Iulius, an offspring of the old and noble Family of Iulians.

Just because some of his political 'friends' and enemies gave him a nickname shouldn't allow you to forget this.

f.

One Point and One Observation

[ikaros]

First, the point:

I wandered through the WAVE site, and perused their 'warning signs' for a while.

Having been an outcast geek (in a school that was supposed to have been the top academic environment in the area), I was a little startled to see "Has excessive feelings of isolation and/or rejection" listed as a sign of danger.

The only conclusion I can reach is that the people who designed this list were in their schools' "ruling clique". Isolation and rejection comes from external sources more often than not, and not internal. Isolation and rejection are thrust upon the different student by their peers -- they do not feel isolated and rejected, they are isolated and rejected by those around them.

It's an unhealthy sort of blaming the victim: a trait forced upon a kid who is different is now going to be used against him. Jon, please remind the Pinkerton's people about that ... I suspect they (like me) are many years removed from their high school years, but some of us remember that time a little clearer, apparently.

Now, the observation:

It never ceases to amaze me how fast adults are to blame kids for so-called "youth problems" ... and how fast adults forget what they were like when they were that age.

Parents of America, your children are not stupid. In fact, they are in the main very observant. They have access to news, information and data that you never would have dreamed possible. And they watch you. Very closely.

Your kids are smart enough to read a road sign that says 'Speed Limit 55' and see that you're going 65 ... and maybe they learn from you that laws can be treated as optional.

Your kids hear you crack an insensitive joke about the latest world tragedy or celebrity death or some such ... and maybe they learn that other people's feelings are irrelevant or worse, objects of ridicule.

Your kids hear you rant mindlessly about "that idiot (fill in any politician or commentator here) ... and maybe they decide anyone who doesn't agree with them is an idiot and not worthy of any respect, or maybe they just lose interest in the process altogether.

Parents, your kids are watching you ... are you PBS, or are you Fox?

ikaros, who believes the root cause is an unwillingness to just take some damned responsibility for one's behavior.

Re:THE SYSTEM MUST FALL

[cbustapeck]

Fair enough. The intent of the disclaimer is better represented by the statement "I advocate this only to the extent that it is legal."

THE SYSTEM MUST FALL

[cbustapeck]

I am not advocating the following action - it just struck me as slightly funny, and something that might work. However, I am not certain of the legal implications. Therefore, I cannot advocate it.

Turn in everyone
IF you are in a town that institutes such a system, go to your local library and get the yearbook for the high school (the local libraries almost always have them) and then call the number and turn in every student. At the time that 95+ percent of the students in the school had been turned in, they might realize that something was wrong with the system.

Re:Fury

[kode187]

I entirely agree.

Bieng a British Citizen, raised in England, and recently emmigrated to Oklahoma, I must say that there is much more of a violent culture in America, coming from the kid's parents. Let me elaborate before you get angry:

In my city (Tulsa) there was recently a fight between students at my high school. After the fight was broken up, the kid's parents then turned up and started fighting each other. What kind of an example is _this_? Why are we suprised, then, when kids take handguns to high school and start shooting?

This WAVE is an attempt to pass the buck from the parents to the kids - now not only do we encourage violence but we then expect kids to rat on each other in the most disgusting way possible.

What safegaurds are in place?

[onyxruby]

I want to know what safegaurds are in place to prevent the popular kids from using this as just one more technique to harass those that don't "fit in". Overreactions to Columbine have flooded schools across the country.

My questions: "What checks and balances are going to be put in place to keep abuses from occuring? Are they going to take any proactive actions to avoid profiling? What happens if someone is turned in? Does a qualified Pscyhiatrist answer the phone? What process is there to let someone know they are being turned in before they are on the shortlist?

Most /.'s have probably been "profiled", played lots of quake, enjoyed AD&D, and have never ever gone a shooting rampage. Profiling like this is only going to make life all the more misreble for those students who fit the stereotype.

Re:What is there to fear?

[Kheldar_522]

Arthur Miller wrote "The Crucible" as a response to McCarthy's Communist witch-hunts. This could end up being a repeat of that.

Re:Dear Pinkertons:

[ironhorse]

I also have a 160+ IQ. In high school I was the captain of the football and wrestling teams and I am still very sexy and cool. I am the cream of society, even more than you. Maybe we should make a list of slashdot users with the highest IQ's,like "technos," give them lots of extra karma. John Katz can show the list to Pinkerton so they will know who is smartest. For the record, I think "technos" is probably the smartest of them all, except maybe thehot grits guy.

Re:What is a Geek?

[GenCuster]

Now about nerd?

Defined as the target audiance for slashdot ;)

You do however raise a good point. What is a nerd? Does it have anything to do with computers?

I would argue that it does not. How then do you referance a youth who is interested in computers to the detriment of all other interests. I have friends who fit this defonition perfectly. They start their own companies.

Any greek gurus want to conjure up a term?

Nate Custer

Re:The "warning signs"...

[GenCuster]

As a freshman, my friends and I spent all lunch hour, many a day, trying to figure out the most painful, damaging torture possible. We were avid readers who were stretching our imaginations not disturbed children. One of them is at MIT (Comp Sci), another at U of MD(BioChem), and another at GW (Journalism), none of them have done anything detrimental to the school. They were the debate team, editors of the Lit Mag, leads in the school play, and members of the Its Ac. team.

As well as this I found the "Displays intense intolerance or prejudice." to be troubling. As a member of the debate team it was our job to be intolerant and debate with prejudice.

But the worst was "Makes threats." What is a threat? Is trash talking on a basketball court a threat, what about psyching in a chess match? This is so vague it is asking to be abused!

WAVE is not the answer. The most basic answer is bettering parenting. However, that can not be changed by the school. The best thing a school can do is to have more and better guidance consolers. Ones whose job is not just scheduling and college admissions. The high school I went to in 9th grade had this. You were required to see the guidance consular for at least 15 minutes, once a week (sometimes in groups). The point was to become familiar, and comfortable with the consular and for the consular to become familiar with you. That way a consular, who is trained in such practices, and does not have an axe to grind, can detect troubled kids.

More than that, by including the consular in the loop for: punishment, bad grades, learn disabilities, etc. It allows a person who knows the child well to devine the best action.

This system worked well for me, even though I was foolish, arrogant, and stubborn, my guidance consular is responsible for ensuring I made it trough my freshman year with as little difficulty as was possible.

If the consular provides anonymity, the student who finds out plans for trouble can report it with anonymity, and still allow for the consular to rate the information based on the knowledge of the reporter, and of their relationship to the reported. Removing a lot of the danger of the WAVE system.

The WAVE system cannot provide the required context that is necessary, for a student reporting system to function. While enough consolers could.

Nate Custer

Re:Blown away...

[GenCuster]

The only right explicitly restricted from children was the right to vote.

The doctrine of In Loci Parentus, and the ideas behind it, does not restrict the rights they simply state that the right is given to the parent to enforce and protest. But the right is not destroyed.

When the parent does not act in the best interests of the child these rights are taken back from the parent and given to someone else. The parents of any of these kids have the right to sue Pinkerton, for the same causes as an 18 can.

Nate Custer

Re:Blown away...

[GenCuster]

This is simply not true. For example the rights to free speech, due process, cruel and unusual punishment have been upheld often.

The only right explicitly restricted from children was the right to vote.

The doctrine of In Loci Parentus, and the ideas behind it, does not restrict the rights they simply state that the right is given to the parent to enforce and protest. But the right is not destroyed.

When the parent does not act in the best interests of the child these rights are taken back from the parent and given to someone else. The parents of any of these kids have the right to sue Pinkerton, for the same causes as an 18 can.

Nate Custer

Why can't we address the real problem?

[hyperizer]

People are constantly blaming geeks and guns for violence, but they're ignoring one important fact: virtually all the recent, horrific acts of school violence have been committed by males. If Western culture, American culture in particular, didn't teach males that violence is an acceptable mode of expression, we would live much more peaceful lives. The persistence of gender stereotypes--macho males and gentle females, is a major factor in the violence that plagues America, but it's consistently ignored by the media who refer to crimes by "our kids" rather than "our boys."

incentives

[xianzombie]

...with the enthusiastic support of the governor -- and going nationwide. It offers incentives (caps, T-shirts, cash) to students...

So what they get is a "I Harrased the School Geek, and all I got was this Stupid T-Shirt"?

i don't get it

"incentives"?

[SuiteSisterMary]

WAVE America is a private, for-profit school-safety program gearing up in North Carolina -- with the enthusiastic support of the governor -- and going nationwide. It offers incentives (caps, T-shirts, cash) to students who call a toll-free number and anonymously turn in classmates they believe to be depressed or dangerous. T-shirts? I TURNED IN MY FRIEND BECAUSE HE'S DANGEROUS AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS LOUSY T-SHIRT Caps? ANONYMOUS TIPSTER - DON'T PISS ME OFF!

hmmm

[scott@b]

So they're offering incentives :
T-shirts - gang identification
cash - well, cash
caps - drugs
to turn in other students. Seems to be good old American Know-How to me. More seriously, even "specific symptoms recommended by psychiatric organizations" often appear to have a bias against the oddballs in society; the Soviet Union was rather famous for this, as is mainland China.

The "Wave Promise", while it may read as a somewhat hokey "be nice to one another", is a valid approach to social interactions. What isn't clear to me is what goes along with the basic pledge - what does "Treat others with respect" really mean, how much tolerance for other opinions and lifestyles goes along with that?

A real difficulty is waht happens when someone is tagged as depressed or dangerous, is checked out, and determined to be OK. Someone at the school is going to know that individual or group was checked out, certainly the student who reported them. Do those people become lepers or madmen that somehow are still walking around loose? Or is the program going to give feedback on why these people are not a threat - tough to do with anonymous tips, although the school's adminstration could be given the feedback and then act to attempt to increase tolerance. I personally doubt that they could be very effective in many cases, the inertia , fear of liability and news coverage if someone slips through the screening, and not wanting to publicly label the individuals if it becomes apparent that they had been so tagged. Scarlet letters are hard to get rid of.

I'd be much happier if there was explicit strong support for helping kids with problems, phone numbers for them to call. Work both sides of the problem. Forget incentives, that's just an opening for abuse (although it might be fun to turn the student government in for cash).

Call it 'McCarthyism' instead of 'Geek Profiling'.

[Shadox Tsurien]

Maybe they'll understand it better in that historical context. Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it, but those who do can perhaps be saved from doing so.

My first attempt to post this failed; if there are two identical postings that's why.

Re:please take the amflag off this

[Zibblsnrt]

(AmFlag behind bars, perhaps? Or maybe set in crosshairs.)

My 'group' was targetted by stuff like that in my senior year of high school. T'was a large group of about twenty or thirty people, most of whom were considered the Losers by the stereotypical jocks or whatnot. Based off a running gag between me and a few friends it was nicknamed The Horde (or The Rabble, depending on who you asked). It was pretty much a fairly random sampling of students; you couldn't tell by looking around the school who was in it and who wasn't like you can with most groups these days.

In general, the majority (90%) of us did fine. No more angsty or whatever than your typical teenaged population (often much less so, in fact), were appreciated by the teachers (hell, three or four of us pretty much taught some classes), and generally got along fine with most of the student body (again, with the Holier-Than-Thou clique exceptions).

Apparently, though, we were considered too dangerous to say anything in the school yearbook. Behold my surprise when I got my yearbook the day before I graduated, and saw that not only my entry, but the entries of every other graduate in the group (a dozen or so - wow, we didn't shun the 'underclassmen!') was removed and replaced with a one- or two-liner written by the yearbook committee/student council. What was offensive in them? I don't have a clue. All I know is that mine stated my choice of a university for the next year, where in the school the Horde tended to hang out in, a couple of quotes.. fairly standard yearbook stuff. The result was something written in third-person that was often contradictory to what I said (hell, they even replaced the univ choice with "Patrick hasn't decided where he's going yet").

Needless to say, I was quite thoroughly disgusted with the school for some time after this.

Anyway, I just found it disturbing. Sure, my group had the social status of the Loser Group amongst some cliques. On the other hand, they were generally the most clean-cut people in the school; they were well-known and respected by the staff (even the few guys with their heads way up the wrong end), and far from troublemakers. After the whole Columbine mess, one of the jock cliques began circulating rumors that me and my friends were going to be the next group to do something drastic, however. I'm quite surprised that the teachers actually seemed to buy into that and decide to make like we didn't exist.

I really like how some paranoid or arrogant (depending on your perspective) finger-pointing can so radically change peoples' views on a group's mental state. I also like how the staff and S.C. decided that this problem can be solved by simply removing any connections between us in the yearbook.

Meanwhile, the Proper, Popular cliques are out there getting criminal records up the wazoo. (The one who started spreading the rumours still screams death threats at me and/or my friends whenever they drive by.

Funny how that works.

Anyone else get shafted like that?

-PS

Am I the only one that sees this?

[Dysan2k]

Ok.. caps and shirts... BAD idea! Why?

Little Jimmy turns in Bob as a depressed psycho. Jimmy gets a cap, and Bob is suddenly put through six weeks of couseling. Bob was depressed because his cat was run over that morning, but would've gotten over it in a few days. Now he's been told he 'hates his father for killing the cat, and secretly wants to run over his father just to revenge the cat.'

Now Bob didn't want his head messed with, but NOW he is REALLY confused and upset. He sees Jimmy at the local arcade, where Jimmy is wearing his 'Snitch on the Sick' cap. Bob didn't know that Jimmy really was the person that turned him in, but decides to beat poor Jimmy into a bloody mess for all the shit he's had to go through.

Bob would've been fine, but because of kids thinking they're now able to diagnose psycological problems, Bob has become noted as a 'dangerous individual'. First depressed and now violent.

Where was the original problem? People are too damned paranoid! Granted, this would be a worse-case senario, but it's not by any stretch out of line. I know too many instances where similar things have happened. No identifying marks for the snitch.. it'll cost him/her too much.

I second the comment.

[ClayJar]

Actually, if you consider the fact that almost everyone else in my family is basically extroverted, I come across as extremely deviant. I fit the bill for most of these profiles. Although I was never outwardly aggressive, I am one of those whose eyes betray a calm, calculating mind that apparently is quite frightening to some people (references to certain characters in Gundam Wing may be appropriate).

I now have a BS in chemical engineering, and I work as a whatever (if it is within 50 feet of a computer, it's probably in my job description). Oh, and all that introverted, cold, calculating energy I've always had? I now make free software (if anybody here dual-boots to play SubSpace, I make FACTS, the level editing and everything tool from ss.ClayJar.com -- I could use a hand with a new UI, though, and porting to a cross platform language would be a good step).

As you can see, deviants can be unusually productive members of society. (To use one more cartoon reference: remember the X-Men.)

please take the amflag off this

[small_dick]

...literally, it makes me nauseous to see the american flag associated with such a thing.

parody it with flames, or replace with chi-comm, rus-comm, or nazi, please!

we used to joke about all kinds of odd stuff when i was in high school -- i have no doubt our little group would be the first to go.

...and it would be the "goody" group to turn us in.

horrid pinkerton scum. repression and fear tactics cause violence, they don't cure it.

just like them to jump on a hot button issue for publicity. disgusting.

Re:please take the amflag off this

[Dungeon Dweller]

The graphic is representational of the topic under which this story is filed. It isn't a graphic thrown in based on personal preference. It is inserted by the perl script upon which this system is based. It wasn't meant to be offensive or associate this story with the american credo or anything, it is just a visual cue for people who like reading stories about the government in the US. Besides, it is government inside the US that is allowing this to take place, and NC tax dollars that are paying these people to run this program. If you want to see it change, then petition NC, or file with the court system saying that the program is bad, the system is merely profiling the topic as it is entered in the database.

Teach kids empathy!

[chrisom]

In case this gets to Wave America, I want to say that your ideals are admirable.

But you are going about it in a way that will alienate the students you are trying to reach.

Please, teach students that to tease, bully, and ridicule another student based on differences (race, religion, the way they look, or the things they like) is wrong.

Students that wear all black, or are angry.. well, teenagers are filled with angst. They just need to find out who they are and where they relate to the rest of the world, in their own way.

You are creating a weapon for some students to "dob" in another person based on a subjective view from a person who doesn't understand the person they are dobbing in.

Chrisom ______________________________________________

My questions for Pinkerton Inc.

[kd5biv]

I see a couple of really serious problems with the W.A.V.E. plan:

1. Anyone listed as potentially dangerous is apparently listed for life, not just for the time they are in the school. Since Pinkerton is not an official government agency (at least not anymore), these records are not completely private and can have devastating effects on a listed student's future job prospects as well as any dealings with the criminal justice system. What does Pinkerton plan to do with the data, and how can students be sure their records are purged when they leave school?

2. Anonymous referral is a system that encourages abuse by students wishing to harass their classmates, and since students have no way of determining whether they have been reported and by whom, they must live in fear that any action they take that is seen as 'different' can potentially ruin their standing in school or future higher education plans, as well as future employment and so on. This creates an extremely oppressive environment that enforces an artificial conformity and drives any students that *are* dangerous and/or violent even further underground. How does Pinkerton plan to address this problem, and would it be possible to require corroborating referrals and track students who abuse the reporting system?

I feel very strongly, as a person who would have almost certainly ended up on this list during my junior high and high school years, that students have rights that they do not simply check at the school door. We may be concerned about student safety and protecting the morals of our children, but students, especially unpopular ones, deserve to know that their rights will be protected against abuses by their classmates and deserve a chance to correct misperceptions by others who may not understand them or outright slander by others who are actively trying to do harm. I am not at all convinced that W.A.V.E. is the plan that satisfies these requirements.

Re:Which Pinkerton's is this, Corp or Inc?

[bmasel]

Pinkerton's IS a job research firm. They've been helping employers weed out Unionists and Lefties for 130 years.

Pinkertons Strikebreakers (from their page)

[bmasel]

They're just using this to build the next generation of their blacklist.. Pinkerton Services Group also offers unique products and consultative expertise to help companies hire and retain quality employees and to maintain a secure, productive workplace. When it comes to applicant and employee assessment products, background history verification, communication reporting systems, and awareness programs, PSG brings unsurpassed resources, personnel and technology together to protect and enhance your company's success. Pinkerton is a leading provider of world-class, global security solutions, including uniformed security officers, investigations, consulting, business intelligence, security-systems integration and employee selection services. Founded in 1850 by Allan Pinkerton, the "original private eye," Pinkerton lists more than 80 percent of the U.S. Fortune 1000 as its clients. With U.S. headquarters in Westlake Village, Calif., Pinkerton (www.pinkertons.com) is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Securitas AB, based in Stockholm, Sweden. Pinkerton merged with Securitas in March 1999, forming the world's largest security company, with annual revenues of $3.5 billion (U.S.) and 114,000 employees in more than 32 countries throughout North and South America, Europe and Asia.

Same outfit. From their page:

[bmasel]

Pinkerton Services Group also offers unique products and consultative expertise to help companies hire and retain quality employees and to maintain a secure, productive workplace. When it comes to applicant and employee assessment products, background history verification, communication reporting systems, and awareness programs, PSG brings unsurpassed resources, personnel and technology together to protect and enhance your company's success. Pinkerton is a leading provider of world-class, global security solutions, including uniformed security officers, investigations, consulting, business intelligence, security-systems integration and employee selection services. Founded in 1850 by Allan Pinkerton, the "original private eye," Pinkerton lists more than 80 percent of the U.S. Fortune 1000 as its clients. With U.S. headquarters in Westlake Village, Calif., Pinkerton (www.pinkertons.com) is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Securitas AB, based in Stockholm, Sweden. Pinkerton merged with Securitas in March 1999, forming the world's largest security company, with annual revenues of $3.5 billion (U.S.) and 114,000 employees in more than 32 countries throughout North and South America, Europe and Asia.

Re:Silencing Dissidents

[bmasel]

They know exactly what they are doing. Here's a story from their archives about their role in Unionbusting in the pennsylvania Coal fields in 1873 http://www.history.ohio-state.edu/projects/coal/mo llymaguire/mollymaguires.htm

Pinkerton's Synergies, history

[bmasel]

These guys are not a dotcom cum lately. They've been compiling dossiers on Labor Activists for a century, peddling their blacklist to potential employers...

Re:Who will have access to the database

[bmasel]

Pinkerton has been supplying employers with blacklists of leftists, labor organizers, and misc. troublemakers for a century.

Police Society?

[porky_pig_jr]

They are promoting society where everything spies on each other. This is probably good for Pinkerton (everyone is working for us!) but bad for the rest of us. Dialog with Pinkerton? Dialog with KGB? Dialog with Gestapo? I'm coing to contact People for the American Way instead.

Cost-benefit, legality and record keeping

[blicero]

[I have a lot of questions here, and they're not very well organized, for which I apologize in advance.]

There has been plenty of debate on /. regarding the usefulness of the AC (Anonymous Coward) persona. It seems that one of the general consensuses (consensi?) is that the AC allows truly free debate, but with the cost of lots of garbage posting: trolling, flaming and so on. At /., this is acceptible. This is because (a) good posts have a high value, because they improve the quality of debate for all and (b) bad posts can simply be ignored and are moderated down, and have little bad effect.

Is Pinkerton wagering that this balance will be similar for the use of an anonymous tips line? Has Pinkerton produced an analysis that shows that the cost of reviewing the number of mistaken, trumped up, and blatantly false accusations is less than the benefit of having more accusations in total? This is not a question of the cost on the falsely accused, but to the company and the program itself. What effect will intervention on the basis of false accusations have on the credibility of the program as a whole? If the /. experience is at all indicative, there will be a large number of lies coming through online and over the phone, from vindictive students, from political activists, and from normal vandals; I am not at all clear how the WAVE system will be able to deal with these.

Also what is the legal status of these accusations? Assume that I don't like Pat. Pat is a quiet person who sits in the back of the room, and who looked at me funny once. So I call the anonymous tip line and say that I saw Pat torturing a rabbit in his backyard, and then muttering "In only three weeks, they will all pay like you did, Mr. Bunny" Which is blatantly, patently false. Have I committed a crime? If so, what? What is Pinkerton going to do about prosecuting people giving them false tips? What if I made up entirely the existence of Pat, and am not even a high school student? Is this illegal? What recourse does Pinkerton have? What if I live in another country and submit an accusation over the web?

Finally, what is done with the records of accusations? Who owns these records? If an accusation is proven false, is it destroyed? Do records have an expiration date, such as the date that the accused turns 18? Can students request copies of the records stored by WAVE?

What does Pinkerton do with the information?

[mooi]

What exactly does Pinkerton do with the information that they obtain from students who turn other students in?

According to the main page of their web site, they "... allow employers to make informed employee selections... open up information rich avenues of communication between employees and management."

What exactly happens to the information that students reveal to Pinkerton? Is it sold, traded, given away, or disseminated into other organizations in any way? If so, who is able to buy or recieve this information? What will people use this information for?

Re:Dear Pinkertons:

[SharpNose]

It is absolutely shocking that a respected private security company would come up with such a wrongheaded, misanthropic, and insulting idea.

I'm glad they're reconsidering the hats, T-shirts, and cash idea, because let me tell you in no uncertain terms, the FIRST kid who shows up at the mall with one of those caps or T-shirts on is likely to find one or more of the following soon thereafter: 1) dog excrement in bookbag 2) prank calls at all hours 3) phone number on men's room stall wall under the words "FOR BJ CALL" 4) air let out of tires 5) his/herself dateless in perpetuity 6) his/herself getting the crap beat out of him/her if his/her reporting actually turns out to be accurate. WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TRYING TO DO, PINKERTON??? I know of REAL KIDS who HAVE BEEN KILLED for less than that!!! How could you have come up with that idea in the first place??

The idea that kids have the experience and knowledge to predict and identify which kids are the most likely to commit acts of violence is throughly preposterous. That Pinkerton would even entertain the notion forever damages the reputation of the company, at least in my eyes. You would think that a professional security company would have better minds on the payroll than that.

Wonder if anyone will see this...

[Shin Elendale]

Well if you do see this, and if four hundred other people already haven't posted (I've only read 200 replies, but none contained my thoughts so I'll spam too!) this, take time to read it. For a long time we Slashdotters have been complaining (and rightly so) that big corps refuse to change/admit problems/take out the trash/etc. and I think that WAVE or whatever they want to be called (No Nazis please, all I ask...) is responding at least semi-appropriatly. If Pinkerton shows and laughs in our faces, I'll be first in line to flame him; but for now I think that he is willing to accept critisms is a Good Thing. Hopefully some of the issues will be resolved, and I am confident that somewhere in the 5000 posts this story is sure to get my ideas will be voiced so I won't bother here. I know a few rather irresponsible kids who wouldn't hesitate to report someone annonymously as the next Columbine (Actually, this happened to me) when they feel the least bit threatened. These are kids who most people don't trust with cars, voting, drinking/smoking (though I'm opposed to both anyway...), etc. but to let someone 'report' a suspicous activity is asking for trouble. At least take the anonimity out of it.

-Elendale (well what do you know... I suppose I did put a bit of my view into that...)

Yeah, this is great...

[Dungeon Dweller]

Hrmm lets see.
I usually associate people getting beat up with geeky depressed weeklings.
Bombings and such, yeah, this wouldn't just set them off...
Suicidals, yeah, singling them out would make them feel way better.
I had a friend in HS who could have used this... Yeah, but he was popular and not depressed at all... Go figure, the people with drugs have a click that they fit into. My friend would never have been turned in on something like this, eventually his mother had him arrested...
Yeah, this sounds like a great system... /sarchasm

I disagree

[luckykaa]

Personally I think its more likely to be used as retribution by the victim.

Turning a nerdy kid in just isn't FUN. What the jocks are after is popularity. They get this by picking on minorities in front of their friends. Not by doing sneaky things behind their back.

WAVE and Fantasy Role Playing

[Hephaestus_Lee]

My concern is that WAVE will unfairly target players of fantasy role playing games. This is do to the fact that their verbal and written speech with in the fantasy scenario in the game will be interpretted as repeated acts of violence (which is a `warning sign` listed by WAVE). The fact that fantasy role players have small groups of tight friends (at least in my experience) does not help much, since it often gives the impression of a criminal group.

How do you plan on protecting fantasy roleplayers and other similiar groups from being targeted by people who are ignorant about them?

Questions

[geekoid]

1. How does Pinkerton plan a dealing with children who turn in other children for spite?
2. How does Pinkerton deal with children that make an honest mistake turning in another child?
3. How can Pinkerton tell the difference between question 1 & 2?
4. What if a student feels his/her teacher qualifies to be called in?
5. How long are records kept on a child who has been reported on by his peers?
6. Should teachers use this method?
7. How will rewards be distributed?
8. What if a couple of Jocks decide to beat the crap out of someone who you have profiled as dangerous? what recourse does the victim have? When I went to high school, there was no recource for the victim, because football is all that matters
9. Where are you going to draw the line that says This is normal/this is not? Yes extreme cases are easy to Identify, but what about the others?
10. Will parents be notified if there child has been Identified as dangerous?
11. What about the accused constitutional right to know there accusers?
12. What qualifications does Pinkerton have for this sort of activity? Especially since it is almost impossible to identify someone as depressed or dangerous without several meeting with a qualified therapist.
13. What is the projected income to Pinkerton for this activity?
14. How do you expect us to believe your doing this, with the childrens best interest in mind, when your making money?
I would also like to thank you for taking the time to answer question in this forum.

What's in it for them?

[kilf]

People/organisations generally have two reasons for any action,
namely a good reason and the real reason. Assuming that avoiding another
High school shooting is Pinkerton's good reason, what might their real
reason be?

I guess they're in it for the profit. Here are suggested ways to make
money out of a list of students reported as misfits by their peers.

1) Pinkertons will use the list for recruitment, figuring that those
reported for geekdoom will be quite bright.

2) They will use the list as a first port of call when their detective
work requires them to find "misfits".

3) They've got a load of t-shirts and baseball caps that costs
them a fortune to store, and they need to get rid of them all quikly.

4) Like .com start-ups they'll try to get a list of names together first
and worry about how to make money from them later.

5) They'll blackmail the schools in question by saying, "We have
information that suggests one of your pupils is making a bomb. We'll tell
you who for $5000."

6) They hope that concerned parents of the reported will pay to have
their children headshrunk.

Oh, and since when did jocks get motivated by free clothes? I thought the
more expensive the better for those guys....

Will we never learn?

[fridgepimp]

Pardon me for not being as articulate as I'd like.

Has humanity learned nothing from history? Anonymous denunciation sits at the root of every major socio/political atrocity in history (or at least the ones I can think of). In fact, it most often contributed to the vilinization of persons who history later recorded as heros.

Let me try and list a few people and events: the spanish inquisition, the salem witch trials, Joan of Arc, the Jacobins in france in the 18th century, the various beheadings in England in the 16th and 17th centuries, etc. More recent examples have been quoted already (The Nazis, soviet social order policies, etc.). Also, in our not to recent past, we had the outing and blacklisting of Communists in the United States.

Each of these situations illustrates the absurdity of this form of policing. It is for this very reason that the United States Constitution (and yes, I'm aware of the case law surrounding the application of the constitution to minors in a school setting) has amendments providing the right to face one's accusers. In each instance, innocent people were punished for acts that they either did not commit, or for acts that should not have been punishable. Many a great mind and leader were lost.

And on a final note, educators and para-educators already have this power. In most states, educators and other in school professionals are legally obligated to report to the autorities 1) anyone who is deemed to be a threat to themselves or others or 2) anyone they believe to be victimizing a student in their care. Why are we offering this power to students? And why are we giving them a higher degree of this power? Students that, while maturing at different rates, are not deemed mature enough to drink or for some drive or vote? Does it make sense to put this kind of power in to the hands of a sect of society that is known for being socially ruthless and agressive as it is. Anybody ever heard the saying "Kids can be cruel?"

This is disturbing to say the least, and it may well be used/abused to alienate any manner of student that doesn't "fit in" including but not limitied to (and of course depending on societal context): gays/lesbians, cultural minorities, the poor, slow learners, geeks, various religious groups, and the list continues.

I would hope that in today's world we would stray away from this type of solution. How about encouraging kids to reach out to those that they believe to be hurting?

I could go on ad naseum, but I think I've said enough...

-fp

Re:Fury

[Lowther]

The FACT is that it is the teachers and administrators who don't take the threat of violence seriously. They're the ones who turn a blind eye ("kids will be kids") right up to the moment one kid blows another's brains out.

I can only speak of my experience in the UK. I fully accept that we should expect teachers and administrators to act in a professional manner.

Problem is, it's a bit like 'security staff', who get minimum wage and an ill-fitting uniform. The money they get paid isn't enough to risk getting killed for.

Another issue for teachers is litigation. We expect teachers to act 'in loco parentis'. We then expose them to violence, litigation and disciplinary action when they do. Do we have the right to act all indignant when they step aside while Kid A blows Kid B away ?

Moral: Don't blame teachers and administrators in schools. The problem they face starts much earlier than school - and is down to parenting and home life.

Re:Questions for the Pinkerton Corp.

[Lowther]

How about someone setting up a web-site which offers a randomly generated psychological profile that you can read over the phone to the Pinkerton's man ?

Not Right!

[sik puppy]

The whole idea is not right - teenagers (the group that is going to take most of the focus of this) - have enough stuff going on in their lives, trying to figure out who and what they are and where are they going, they don't need to spend anymore time looking over their shoulders, wondering who is going to try and stab them in the back. Teenage years are supposed to be fun, learning, playing, going out on dates, cruising (in those few places its not yet outlawed), socializing in general. This is tough enough for those already ostracized for any of a number of reasons. Now, this program is going to make their life even more difficult - it may even push some over the edge "everyone expects me to do go nuts, so why not?"

I see only one group benefitting from this - lawyers. They win if someone is wrongly accused, and they sue for slander/defamation of character, etc., and they win if someone makes a report and it doesn't get acted on - "well, someone filed a report on this person, you did nothing, and look what happened...". Everyone else looses.

The end goal is desirable, the means to get there is not. Until this is better thought out and there is a way to prevent ALL abuse of the system, its dangers far outweigh its benfits.

one parting thought - what about a persons right to privacy - this process violates that right.

Just One Question

[pigeonhed]

Instead of Pinkerton spending resources and Man/Woman hours on this program why did they not leave corporate environment and enter a school and talk to teens with problems. I would imagine that interaction would do far more good than gifts and a program of division. I have been a Big Brother to two boys for almost four years now. I may not save the world but when one of them just entered college I cannot tell you the pride I felt in my heart. I may be a bleeding heart liberal but damn it felt good. Stop throwing money and programs at kids and get involved you may be amazed at how quickly things can change.

Yeah, but at least our leaders can drive.

[tjstork]

Now, here's the British guy complaining about the US and its traditions, with all of his traditional British stubborn disregard for the facts.

The British guy brings up the Salem Witch Hunts as an example of religious persecution in America. Hmm.. I'd take a few folks bumped off in Salem versus the several hundred years of Catholic oppression at the hands of the Church of England.

If guns were so easy to ban, then don't you think the IRA would have been disbanned by now? How many guns do the IRA have? In America, if someone like the IRA tried to do something, a bar full of citizens would just shoot the guy.

Life under British Leadership can best be summed up with one anecdote. Ireland was NEUTRAL when London was being bombed.

Guns 101

1/2 of all US Gun Deaths are suicides.

90% of the balance of US Gun Deaths are committed by people with prior felony convictions. During the last 8 years, less than 100 people with prior felony convictions were ever prosecuted for attempting to possess a firearm - already illegal in the US.

More people catch AIDS in the US than die from guns. Should we register people with AIDS? How about a database to look up who we might be sleeping with?

It's time for the British to get involved in American politics in the way they were destined to do so. Lose the royals and become a state. Britian as a state might rank right up their with New Hampshire or something.

Good, it will be easier to invade.

[tjstork]

Let's face it. Global warming is becoming a reality and the United States is going to get baked. Since the Canadians are disarmed, it ought to be pretty easy to send in the army and take the land.

A US Invasion of Canada would have many benefits. If Canada was a part of the United States, it wouldn't matter if Quebec left. If Canada was a part of the United States, it wouldn't matter. Finally, if Canada was a part of the United States, Canadians might be able to afford a halfway decent hockey team.

Microsoft's post-crash market valuation is still larger than Canada's GDP. You guys don't have crime because you don't anything worth stealing. Watcom was cool, but where are they now? I mean, you can't even field a professional team competitive in your own national sport. That's too funny.

flamebait. heh heh. Bet you wish you had that 357 now.

:-)

Re:Make Money Fast

[DrgnDancer]

Unless they think of it first

Re:Question from a european point of view

[Rimbo]

America suffers from a dangerous case of "It can't happen here" syndrome. We still talk about Nazi concentration camps while simultaneously forgetting about what we did to innocent Japanese-Americans here. Also, forget about this issue for a second and consider the slow erosion of freedom of speech that's occurring in the country.

I read one book of a fabulous series of books on the fall of democracy in various countries. One volume alone, written by Arturo Valenzuela, is about the fall of democracy in Chile, about Pinochet's coup. I know a lot of people on one side of the issue blame the CIA's intervention, but the truth is that the CIA only supported a movement that was happening anyway.

The problem there, as also is here, is that the "silent majority" cannot remain silent. MOST OF US WERE NOT NORMAL. I'm not just talking about geeks. Not everyone can be beautiful and popular, and most kids aren't -- why else do you think Marilyn Manson reaches kids so well?

The real problem is that mainstream America isn't informed of these matters, and then when it is, it believes that these things Can't Happen Here, and it doesn't do anything about it.

But once in a while...a bullet zings too close to one of these folks' heads, and they go on a rant. Right now, however, they're ranting against the wrong thing. They should be fixing the way parents raise children, not fixing the way children treat each other. That will never change.

Re:damn

[Rimbo]

Yes, I hope they hear us.

Because they can listen to us all day without hearing us.

It's entirely possible they're just grabbing Pinkerton to say, "And what are the names and addresses of these 1,000 people who posted, so that we may report them? You DO keep them on record, don't you?"

The answer inherent (Re:Here's a good question)

[0x0000]

schools can't distribute aspirin to students (let alone psycho-therapy)

The way they are getting away with it is that they don't call it psycho-therapy.

Ritalin has reached epidemic proportions in US schools. The FDA has it on the same drug schedule as methamphetamine and cocaine, and the schools are passing it out like candy, especially to children of families who receive welfare, food-stamps, SSI, etc.

Ritalin is a popular street drug, too. The kids with any sense can sell it, easily, to the same people who buy meth, coke, crack, etc. (Sorry, I don't know the street price anymore).

Over 50% of my daughter's 4th grade class was being drugged on "advice" the school -- specifically, the instructor. That's right, the teacher. Not a school nurse, not a doctor, not a counsler or a therapist. A teacher, with the support of the administration.

The parents of any child who acted like a normal 4th grade child were told that their child was impulsive, disruptive, and "has trouble staying on task". Vague threats and innuendo are used to encourage the parents to cooperate. For recipients of public assistance, the threats are not so vague: If your child doesn't take these drugs, your benefits will be cut.

Naturally, an undrugged child stands out it classroom where the "norm" for behavior is gauged against a bunch of 10-year-old zombies.... And naturally, any child who doesn't fit in is singled out by other students and teachers.

I think the whole W.A.V.E. program is symptomatic of the disease that is devouring our educational system from the inside.

If you love your children, if you want to give them a chance, get them out of the schools. They (and we) are going to have enough problems as the hardware is purchased to expand these types of programs to cover not just schools, but entire communities. The idea that it will be used to combat violence is just a marketting ploy; imagine the kind of power the owners of the databases will wield as the number of profiles they hold approaches %75 of the population of a state?

The reason they are pushing it in the schools is that children who grow up with this type of monitoring will be less likely to squawk when it continues into their adult lives.

Question: Is 1984 (the book by Geo. Orwell) still required reading in the schools? Specifically, will students in NC be reading it?

The kids (and many of the adults) around here have never heard of it.

And has anyone accurately established just how many of the shooters in the recent spate of school violence were on Ritalin, Prozac, or some other psychotropic drug? Last time I looked, I couldn't find one who wasn't...

That's what will be done for the victims of your programs, Pinkerton. They'll be drugged. And the long term effect of that will be that what incidents do occur will be far more horrific.

There are only two possible outcomes to this sort of approach to the problems of society: revolution by the populace, or enslavement of the populace.

WAVE vs "The Wave" peer pressure social experiment

[follower-fillet]

I couldn't help wondering about the similarities between the name "WAVE" and the book by Todd Strasser "The Wave".

The book is (based on a true story) about a teacher who starts a movement called "The Wave" in order to teach his class about Nazism and group pressure.

Co-incidence? :-)

Re:I have a report

[pe1rxq]

I thought it was called 'American Media'

Grtz, Jeroen

Answers to some WAVE Questions.

[myxlplix]

The number to call to turn someone in is: 1-800-527-1428

The number to their public relations dep is: 1-800-527-1428

The web site is WaveAmerica.com

I ask the Public relations woman this question: How do you prevent abuse.

Her Answer: We have trained people to ask qestion on the phone to the caller. (In other words they know what they are doing)( I don't believe them)

What will they do with the information they collect: send a report to the contact person at the school or organization in question.

How long will they keep the record?:

Her answer: We are not in the data collection business we just give the information to the school.

Re:The "warning signs"...

[Prof_Dagoski]

"Has unlawful possession and use of firearms." Uhhm... Is it just me, or should yoube calling 911 emergency police and not the WAVE hotline on this one? How do law enforcement agencies feel about this? Reading the rest of the imminent warning signs, I notice that most of the acts covered are distinctly criminal in nature and are covered under the criminal code in most states. The only ones that aren't covered uniformly are detailed threats--most states regard detailed an explicit threats as a criminal act of varying degree-- and the suicidal stuff. Rage is covered under the first ammendment I guess. So the question here is why does Pinkerton want a kid to call them and not the appropriate law enforcement agency? I have to wonder what their aims really are in this case. On the other hand it'd be great to have good counseling hotline to call in and get advice on what to do with a suicidcal classmate. In any case, I simply don't think Pinkerton's really out to serve the community.

Re:Question from a european point of view

[kalifa]

> I believe the nazis pioneered the use of
> propaganda towards children.

Pretty close, but actually Mussolini and the Italian fascists did, a few years before nazis.

So we must all be dangerous...

[MadDreamer]

When I was young, I had few friends. I didn't get along with everyone else. I sat in the corner reading. I played Doom religiously. I listened to God knows what kind of music. I liked sci-fi, horror, crazy off-kilter stuff. I never liked to speak up in class, I tried to stay back from the crowd. I continued this way until the last semester of my senior year of high school.

By the way, I also graduated valedictorian and went to college on a scholarship.

Most of my small circle of friends were the same way. And yes, they almost all graduated well and received scholarships as well.

So yes, sounds like a great idea, lets reward those students who are in every class, the ones who look for any reason to go to the teacher and say, "He's reading a dirty book!"

(And just because it happens to have a strange title or weird cover art doesn't make it dirty, for those of you who were wondering)

Let's give them just another reason to feel good for going to 'tattle' on someone, in fact, let's reward them for it.

It's a dog eat dog world! Let's teach them that early. Weed out the weak, what do they accomplish? Bunch of freaks hiding in the corners!

-Mad Dreamer

The Wave America Creed

[poetic justice]

I just finished reading the Wave America Web site. I noticed their little "pledge, creed etc...) "This is my school, my space. I want it to be a safe place. I know that violence prevention begins with me. So that's why to this promise I agree. I will... Resolve conflicts peacefully. Talk about problems openly. Treat others with respect. Walk away from a fight. Take all threats and warning signs seriously. Talk to a parent, counselor or other adult about my concerns." Here is my Rifleman's Creed I recited as a Marine Corps Recruit. "THIS IS MY RIFLE There are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I master my life. My rifle, without me is useless. Without my rifle, I am useless. I must fire my rifle true. I must shoot straighter than any enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will.... My rifle and myself know that what counts in this war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, nor the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit... My rifle is human, even as I, because it is my life. Thus, I will learn it as a brother. I will learn its weakness, its strength, its parts, its accessories, its sights and its barrel. I will keep my rifle clean and ready, even as I am clean and ready. We will become part of each other. We will... Before God I swear this creed. My rifle and myself are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of my life. So be it, until victory is America's and there is no enemy, but Peace........................" I'm a little disturbed by this. Nothing against the rifleman's creed. It's used in USMC Basic to instill a certain value system in young persons who are being trained to kill on command. I can't get away from the Hitler Youth angle of Wave America. Are we trying to do the same thing with our kids. Who defines normal, well adjusted, dangerous? Wave America is not the sign of a normal well adjusted country. It's 1920's Germany all over again.

Time

[Trollok]

One thing no one here has mentioned is that students in our public schools should not have the time or the spare energy to establish a pecking order. It is the teachers responsibity to see to it that the pecking order is Teacher on top and Students on the bottom, period. This means maintaining discipline in class, focusing on educating and having a zero tolerance policy towards bullying and hazing. School was never meant to be a social club for kids. While on school grounds a student should be kept busy learning their lessons, working on a future vocation or participating in sanctioned and supervised afterschool activities. Teachers and administrators are dropping the ball and letting the inmates run the asylum.

Question of my Own

[shatteredsoul]

What I would like to know is how this thing is really going to work. Does anyone actually expect teenagers to tell the truth about turning kids in, or are the just going for the ride and get all the free stuff being given out? All the recent school shootings and threats werent caused by depress kids. Depressed kids kill themselves, not 20 other people so they can sit and rott in jail. All these shootings are caused by media. If these items wouldn't be on the news everyday, they would just start to fade away, like many other things brought on by media. But because of all the publicity the media is giving, It is costing more upon everyone else, raising costs of schools because now they have to have full time security guards, metal detectors, and locked doors which make the schools look like they are ready for World War III. Whats next, security bracelets on every student so they can all be tracked. Overall I think this plan is going to be a lot more trouble than it is worth.

Re:Say yes to school uniforms

[Morgance]

By advocating uniforms, aren't you supporting the same attitudes and the same kind of educational enviroment that WAVE is?

No, not really, in my opinion. What WAVE encourages is for children to cause trouble for those who don't meet their personal standards - their clothing isn't cool enough, they don't do this that or the other right, so we'll get them in trouble just for spite.

Uniforms level the playing field a great deal, by requiring everyone to conform to an outside standard, out of their own control. I spent five years in school uniforms (ugly as hell, but all identical), and I'll tell you that it wasn't bad at all - in fact, I preferred it. Everyone was at the same level - some had different jewelry or shoes, but the differences were much more subtle. Everyone had a common starting ground (if you have nothing else in common, you can bitch about those stupid plaid skirts) and you couldn't harrass anyone about their clothing, because it was just like yours. It doesn't solve the world's problems, but it helps with a few on the personal interaction level.

Morgance

My questions:

[ivan37]

I am very interested in why you would use the name W.A.V.E. Obviously, you wouldn't have named it that if you had heard of the movie "The Wave" beforehand. The movie (for those that don't know) basically gives the exact reasons why your program _shouldn't_ be initiated. Didn't someone come up to you during the developmental progress of this program and tell you? I am a junior in high school and just this year we watched the movie after reading "1984". While, yes, "The Wave" isn't exactly the most popular movie, from the discussion here on Slashdot, many people recognized it. When during the process of creating this did someone bring the movie to your attention and why in the world didn't you change the name right then?

Re:Finally...

[bigstripes]

Did Pinkerton also read all of Hellmouth?

Maybe this should be a requirement before meeting with them.

Re:Dear Pinkertons:

[bigstripes]

One of the things that I found interestng about the show was how much the crew at Bletchley Park reminded me of the people you would find at a web startup. It seems to me that the British missed a chance to be the dominate power in the world of computing. Once the war ended there was no longer a place for people that strange. I suspect most of them drifted off to rather normal lives, and a few , like Turing, never where able to make it in a society that valued normality above creativity. I find it hard to believe that the person who made the first computer was sent back to work at the post office.

This is a lesson to us in the US tech industry. Don't assume that just because we are on top of the world now, that we will stay there. If we don't value the contributions of the people who create the technology then our pace of inovation will slow and we will become overtaken.

The above was posted by an AC in an Enigma thread. Seems relevant here. Perhaps the mention of economics will get those idiots at Pinkertons [who are indeed former high school jocks] to pay a little attention? Maybe get some of the very rich successful high tech industry types to talk to P about what it was like in high school for them? This has got to be turned around somehow.

How is this helping?

[raille]

Putting a program like this into place is like organizing a huge witch hunt. By offering rewards for "helping" depressed and "possibly dangerous" individuals, you simply make the problem worse. What's to prevent kids from faking symptoms in some sort of scam to get the rewards? And how does this actually encourage kids who actually DO have problems to come forward? If anything, they will become more withdrawn and try to repress what they really are so that they won't be singled out as one of those "dangerous" kids. It's just a stupid, stupid idea. I challenge Pinkerton to come up with a real situation where this would be beneficial, and then show that these benefits will outweigh the myriad of negative effects this sort of campaign will produce.

Misguided intentions

[tuckeric]

Demagoguery and the perception of ideological majority will sway the public opinion of a group of humans. This is a basic precept of human nature that has been recognized for centuries. Tyrants and autocrats have used it to their advantage. The founders of the American democratic institution saw it and attempted to plan around it by creating a bicameral legislature, with a Senate to act as a filter to the will of the American people. Journalism used to act as the senate of the media. Ones journalistic integrity dictated what was appropriate to be reported. There was an invisible line between the public eye and the private life. Modern media, however, is a far cry from the journalism that existed previously. The finest in yellow journalism is presented to us daily at 6 and 11. The average American falls for it every day. Acting in horror and dismay over the shooting of children in Columbine and bemoaning the dangers that the average teen faces in the modern, drug infested, violence saturated, chaotic world of today. What we seem to forget is that 150 years ago those same children would have fought in wars, would be parents, would be adults. The superficial, expose aspect of the media and the ambient voice of culture have made it easy for most people to ignore the real flaws in our society, and instead get righteous and indignant about the effects of these flaws. And shame on a big business like Pinkerton to take advantage of this. I doubt that Pinkerton has invested any money in studying the effects of such a draconian program. I doubt even more that they take into consideration that the primary reason for education is to teach children the skills that they will need when they are adults. If they have, I am sure that they consider these skills to be Reading, Writing, and Arithmetic. How wrong can they be? Schools should provide this education, but they should also teach other skills that might not be available at home, communication, diversity awareness, and the ability to get along with others. Instead of attempting to make money off of our cultural insecurities wouldn't their efforts be better placed trying to educate? For centuries Americans of all colors, sizes, sexes, religions and dispositions have fought for the freedom to simply be themselves. It's the reason that many of our ancestors fled to this continent. Our authors (Orwell, Huxley) have warned us about being complacent to the hand of big business. It has been said that a king is like a giant, and he must always be careful where he places his feet. This is true of corporations and governments of all forms. While I applaud Pinkerton for their efforts to reduce violence in our schools, I hope that they will keep in mind that they are this proverbial giant. Weeding out the 'weirdos' may solve school shootings, but at what cost? Anyone seen a picture of Einstein lately? How about Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, or any of the other CEO's driving the information revolution? Being weird is a right of being American. This right brings along its disadvantages but I would rather have these bumps along the way. After all, it is often said that the trains did run on time under Hitler. What do we value more, A uniform and orderly culture, or one of diversity and individual freedom?

Re:Term has worked well..

[prairieson]

Cmon guys, we're digressing here. 'Geek-profiling'is nothing more than a meme that seems to be appropriate in this instance. And much simpler than 'dinenfranchised-disillusioned-disenchanted-dis-wh atever-else profiling' In the context of the real problem (W.A.V.E) there's no sense in getting into a pissing contest over the wording of it all. Point your guns toward the other side of the battlefield, not at each other.

My Questions

[DeICQLady]

To the Pinkerton group: thank you immensely for taking the time out to listen to the concerns of the community. Hopefully we have brought points forward that will help you to create a better safer program. My questions are:

1. What was the basis for suggesting or creating an this program, i.e that children can remain anonymous and be "rewarded" for their reports?
2. Were professionals ever consulted on the impacts on such a program (i.e.) child psychologists, psychiatrists? Were lawyers consulted on whether this program would in any way violate the constituitional rights of these children?
3. If so what was the response from these experts?
4. Were children (from differents parts of America, etc) given the chance to air their feelings on what they feel the impact of this program would be in their school?

This in fact would be an important step because if you are trying to do something that will *benefit* them, then it is strongly suggested that their views be considered and factored in to aspects of whatever program is presented.

Nuff Respec'

DeICQLady
7D3 CPE

Safe and Secure Bribing Methodology

[EEGurg]

The Pinkerton Corporate Kiss butts are definitly utilizing rackettering stratagy...BRIBING an already confused YOUTH CULTURE in the dim hope of PREVENTING further escalation of MIS-CUED,(from life-long exposure to PREVIOUS GENERATIONS OF SELF-DRIVEN MATERIALISTIC ROLE MODELS) CONFUSED, VOLITILE, CONDITIONED, SOCIETAL INFLUENCED BEHAVIOURS? NOT a useful approach to promote 'acceptable, intelligent, decision-making capabilities, towards living a positve, useful ADULT (IF THEY, youths, LIVE THAT LONG) existance.

PLANNED STRUCTURED BRIBERY is NOT INTELLIGENT much less a SAFE AND PREVENTATIVE OPTION showing concern toward the pre-adult sector of this totally power=money based, ever-DEVOLVING society.

THE PARADOXIAL DYSFUNCTIONG OF CURRENT SOCIETY IS IN DIRECT RESULT OF PREVIOUS GENERATIONS AND THEIR IGNORANCE. BUYING into the pavlovian induced 'AMERICAN DREAM'(this post ww2 era continues) deception has flawed the seams of this and future generations. The YOUTH of 'real time' have innocently become LOSERS in this ongoing'SOCIETAL GAME' WHERE PRIORITIES ARE DISTORTED AND DECEPTION THRU tactical BLAMING of ANYTHING and ANYBODY are RULES OF FAIR (yeah right) PLAY. (kind of an analogic opinion)

THE YOUTH OF THIS COUNTRY HAVE INNOCENTLY BECOME societal manefestations BEGGING FOR RECOGNITION, NOT IGNORANCE AND BANDAIDS...

Why it simply can't work

[Zero__Kelvin]

I would start by asking them if they *really* want to associate their name with concepts like the Holocaust and the French revolution.

I would point out that even as recently as ten years ago this kind of crap would fly, because there would be no way for everyone to collaborate, and even though a lot of people would see through it, they would have no way to spread the word and mount an organized resistance.

I would ask them if they had considered that that has changed with the advent of the InterNET and that they are simply wasting their time. I can forsee someone putting out a "call to arms" to all students encouraging them all to turn in each other in a conspiratioral and organized fashion, in such a way that the noise will bury the signal (not that the signal *isn't* noise, because it is.) The system is easily defeated as long as there is a significant component of objection in the community, as there clearly is, and for good reason.

the road to hell is paved with good intentions

[rothkoid]

It's obvious that the idea springs from the best of intentions. It's also obvious that not only can the system be willfully abused, but that it will often result unintentionally in improper consequences for 'troubled' youngsters ... After perusing the WaveAmerica web site, I think that three things are vital if this is to be at all a good thing: that Pinkerton screen calls judiciously; that they report serious calls fairly; and most importantly, that the schools handle them responsibly and give equal weight to the needs of all concerned. On the whole, though, I am doubtful that this is necessary or even that the good it does will outweigh the bad.

Re:Here are the criteria they use; from their webs

[PingXao]

Who was it that said "for every complex problem, there's an answer that's simple, elegant and wrong?"

Not sure but I'm *pretty* sure it was in reference to one of Reagan's "solutions" for some ill or other. Possibly Nancy's "Just Say No" campaign.

Some thoughts to pass on

[GrouchoMarx]

The question of Columbine et al is not one of video games, or TV, or any other technological question. It is a question of responsibility, and one of history.

First, the concept of paying children, or in any way encouraging them to turn in "potentially dangerous" people sickens me. Yes, if you see a crime, you report it. Period. But let us not forget a period in our nation's history not that long ago. It was called the McCarthy Era, or the Red Scare. Anyone who was considered a potential, maybe, sort of "Pinko" was blacklisted. They could loose their job, their morgage, their friends would refuse to talk to them, and in extreme cases be investigated by our old friend, the House UnAmerican Activities Committee (HUAC). The frightening part was, of course, that except in Hollywood and a few high-profile cases, the federal government was not the main perpetrator. Plain old American witch-hunters were. You didn't need any basis to be labeled a "Commie," just let anyone believe that you may possibly support "socialist" concepts. (You know, like anti-trust laws, women's rights, racial equality, and other "UnAmerican" ideas.)

Does anyone remember the bumper-stickers saying "Kill a Commie for Christ?" What would the bumper-stickers say now? "Rat on a non-conformist, win a hat?" What a lesson to teach our children.

Teaching students to "recognize potentially threatening behavior" (whatever that means) would not have accomplished anything in Columbine anyway. Most students already knew that those two had problems. Their teachers knew the kids were "potentially dangerous." The school administration was fully aware that the kids were walking time bombs, and had gone to their parents and said "Your kids are dangerous, please, let's send them to counseling or something." These are the same parents who, when they found explosives (not just firecrackers, but REAL explosives) in their son's room decided that a short grounding and taking the explosives away was an adequate punnishment. The parents KNEW the boys had guns. They had seen them, and done nothing. They told the school administration to buzz off and not harass their kids. "They're good boys." A that point the school legally couldn't do anything, except wait for the day when two students went rampaging through the school with an arsenal they had built up over a long time in their parents' homes.

What would counseling have accomplished at that point, in any case? Someone who is so far gone that they will spend a year planning to wage bloody war against their school is not going to pay any attention to a school shrink they see a few times a week, tops. (No offense intended to any school social workers who may be reading this.) There is a gulf of difference between someone who is depressed and someone who has made the decision to kill. Perhaps a military academy would have a better chance of turning around people with that mind set. Maybe. But then, are you going to send children to a military academy because another student thinks that they "may be potentially threatening?"

I play video games. I've played DOOM. I've played Quake. (Although I personally prefer the X-Wing series and Starcraft, but that is neither here nor there.) I've seen violent movies. I've seen the 10 o'clock news (perhaps more damaging than any video game, because you KNOW that it IS REAL). I'm a heavy computer user. I've done web pages. I've seen hate sites on the web, though I've never written any (nor would I). I was never popular in school, nor did I mind, because I didn't care for most of my classmates, either, "jocks" or not. I was typically looked down upon by many of my classmates, because I was the "brainy kid." Sounds like a very similar "profile" to the Columbine shooters, right? A prime target for T-shirt hunting classmates, or paranoid classmates, or confused classmates. Yet not only have I never shot up my school, I avoid violence of any kind. I don't even like pocket knives, except for when I'm opening a mail package. In fact, I would go as far as to say that I probably had the calmest, least violent, least depressing, least emotionally wrenching high-school years of anyone I know. What makes me so different?

I was always very close to my parents. I didn't think they cared about me and what I did, I KNEW. The thought of stocking weapons never even occured to me, and even now that I've seen examples of it, it still doesn't occur to me. I didn't hide stuff from my parents, guns or otherwise, because I didn't feel I had any reason to.

I will lay money that those kids' parents had never given them an honest, caring, loving, simple hug since they stopped wearing diapers.

So where does that leave so-called "Geek Profiling?" Absolutely nowhere. Should we institute McCarthy For Kids just so that we can say we're "dealing" with the problem of teen violence? It is not even a band-aid solution. It is no solution, because it completely ignores what the problem is, yet encourages divisivness and paranoia in our children. The idea of "paying" children to search for "potentially threatening," "Pinko" classmakes is only icing on this already vile cake.

The question has already been raised of the legal liability question. Liability indeed. "Pain and Suffering" lawsuits run into the millions of dollars, each. Not to mention the pain and suffering caused as a result of the trial itself. And even with the money aside, what has been accomplished? You have taken someone who is at best simply a non-conformist (which, according to every interpretation of the First Ammendment I've heard, is perfectly acceptable) or at worst a psychologically depressed child with enough emotional problems already and cubbyholed them into "potential sources of UnAmerican Activity." At best, you've made them that much more of an outcast and a public specticle, and if it goes on their record affected their chances of getting into college. ("Was identified as a potential source of violence due to color of clothing." I can see a college turning someone down because of that, although not officially.) At worst, you've told someone who already feels alienated that those around them consider them a threat, and that they should be handled with care lest they blow up on them. Is there a better way to destroy whatever modicum of self-esteem someone has left?

I do not wish to see a rebirth of McCarthyism in my country. This program sends the message "If you see someone who isn't like you, turn him in to 'the authorities' and get cool toys." I would rather actually help people. How about a different message: "If you see someone who is sad, depressed, or lonely, give them a hug. The smile you get back is payment in full."

--GrouchoMarx, age 19

What is the profile of a suicide?

[Glowing Fish]

It seems to me that a lot of the discussion going around is about picking on the stereotypical "depressed" teenager. And when I saw the "signs of danger" that were listed on the WAVE site, they seem to be looking for signs of a stereotypical depressed teenager. But where is the evidence that any of these stereotypical signs of depression actually havea ny corealation (sp?) to actual suicides?

Just for my own anecdotal evidence, I was over at a young friend of mine's house,and he is in high school still, and he was telling me how the second student at his high school had commited suicide in two years (if these were murders and not suicides, I am sure this would qualify as national news). The reason for the second suicide? The student hadn't been able to make the varsity soccer team. Probably a great deal of suicides are done not by stereotyped anti-social children, but by mainstream over-achievers who can't live up to expectations. Is there any stastistical data on this?

Over all, I think that social manifestations of depressive behavior are the effect, not the cause...and a rather minor effect at that. Some people manifest their depression by being anti-social, others do it in less obvious ways. The root causes of depression and suicide are personal and social, and to recognize them takes a trained professional or someone with lots of experience, not just a kid who is acting on stereotypes...I just find it hard to believe that professionals who should know better are going along with this.

responsibility

[kuzinov]

Although,I'm sure it sound like a good idea on paper or at a cocktail party.Pinkerton's plan is inherently flawed.It seems designed from the ground up for abuse.Offering money for turning in someone is corrupting enough,letting high school age kids turn each other in for money is the worst idea I have heard in a long time.In fact,I believe that their system will be so swamped by false,vindictive reports,any serious reports will be lost in the spam.

Consider problems of being taken from the list....

[BobThePalindrome]

Hello, WAVE program employees.

I am one of the people horrified by the concept and implementation of WAVE, and had some slight posts previously. I appreciate the WAVE people reading this.

Consider the position of a parent/gaurdian when he hears that his son has been called in for questioning because of an anonymous tip. A) Did the kid actually give any threats or display trouble the parent should know about? B) Is my kid safe from the actual disturbed people? C) Okay, so it was bogus this time. Now how do I get my kid wiped from the records?

One of the checks and balances you need is a way of wiping out references to a kid. Completely. No lingering stuff. If you don't implement this, and if my kid came afoul of you, I would pursue all legal means to make it so and then extract actual and punitive damages.

Consider implementing, from the very first moment possible, a policy and method of deleting all info about any person that is not substantiated as an actual prosecutable threat. No dead files.

If this becomes a source of data for the Pinkerton corp, where they keep and own this database, that is a powerful tool of controlling people without checks and balances. The credit card rating people have commited abuses, but know that if too much of their data is wrong and uncorrectable, then the banks will stop using their services and begin using a rating company that is more acceptable. There is no similar restraint on the Pinkertons. If they are paid by the "counselling session" there will be lots of counseling sessions. If they are paid for each instance of a boot to the kidney, they will boot the kidney.

Even with this implementations discussed here in /., I will absolutely fight the existance of this program in my state. (South Carolina) No kidding, this whole concept is wrong in my opinion. I will begin by posting some information about the history of Pinkertons: How many freaking NORTH CAROLINIANS know that Mr Original Pinkerton got his start as a spy for Generals Grant and Sherman! Then for many decades their main business was hiring out as a private army for busting strikers or Indian tribes or farmers? Your corporate history does not make you people I would trust with the power to detain and question my children, ever.

http://www.pinkertons.com/history/index.html

Re:you're confusing the issue

[JimFromJersey]

Your child is one of the ten that is harrassed. Your child, deciding that life is now over because they have been branded as "dangerous", steps in front of a bus. Now your child is dead. Killed by the system that was supposed to keep them safe. You think that your child would not do it? You have no clue what your child is really thinking! The more you think everything is all right, the better the chance is that every thing is wrong. You just put your child in the grave, no different then if you put a gun to their head and pulled the trigger. It reminds me of a quote about people who are willing to give up freedom for security deserve neither.

I got into trouble for protesting this stuff

[vsync64]

We had tons of CrimeStoppers posters at my school, saying nothing but "Remain anonymous. Earn $2000." I put up posters protesting this, and was suspended.

Re:The "warning signs"...

[vsync64]

Remember in The Sixth Sense, when the little kid got in trouble for making a violent picture? "What do you draw now?" "Happy things...rainbows. They don't hold meetings about rainbows."

Dumb Children

[millaar]

The premise of the program seams to be that kids are not smart enough to seek out help when it is available and also do dumb to fallow right and wrong

But if these kids are not capable of doing that then how can they be asked to be responsible and judge their peers making judgments that people are supposed to have a college degree before making

It seams to me that you must either trust all or none and leave the evaluations to the professionals

I find it personally repulsive that they would offer rewards with no checks as to validity of the claims. There are hundreds of help lines in operation today that work quite well with out offering rewards and the claims are DISCREATLY checked before action or judgment is taken

In total leave this job to the profession the teachers and consolers and let ever one know there are ways to get help.

Concerned in the Midwest

Re:U Americans must be crazy!

[ghoul]

I suppose that is the method u r using to keep the black population in the states under control Just open a liquor shop and gun shop on every corner. Frustate them by denying a sensitive education system and vopila u have population control And Oh u cld also call Pinkerton and leave a message I dont like so and so coz hes black and THAT IS Dangerous(Sarcastic)

Re:Accountability

[SPUI]

The supreme court just ruled a few weeks ago that warrants based on anonymous tips are no longer legal.

IANAL, but I'm not anal.

Blame Canada! <^>

pinkerton=thug

[gregrph]

given the pinkerton reputation of behaving as thugs for corperate america since their founding days, i find this publicity stunt too much to take. i assume they are trying to become the "bodyguard" for the general public in this activity and enhance their image in some way. i believe their plan will probably backfire and precipitate more crisises. this is unacceptable. i believe that if we examine the causes of school violence we will find that the lack of any civil rights afforded our children is one of the causes. we have created a segment of our society that is excluded from our constitutional protections(our childre) who are safeguarded by another group(their teachers) which is not permitted to discipline and cannot exert any adult authority over their students. this situation has been created out of the liberalization of school policies and government control of our educational system. the remedy is not to embrace some glory seeking group like the pinkertons, but to privative our educational system. sell all these schools and return the money and the power to the citizenry. our educational system is another example of the lack of results that is guaranteed by a socialist system.

He read *every* comment?

[Signal 69]

So, what does he think about people pouring grits down their pants? :-)

Re:Blown away...

[kirn_malinus]

"I'd much rather get a T-Shirt for participating in a program in which I learned how to reach out to a a depressed or disaffected person, rather than rat-finking on somebody I didn't even really understand.
Who would want to wear a t-shirt that says "W.A.V.E. America" on it anyway? It might as well say "German State Police" (Gestapo) on it.

"How does Pinkerton propose to implement WAVE without violating these constitutional rights?"
Very easily: kids don't have any constitutional rights (or at least none that are 1. upheld very often in courts, or 2. of any use against this sort of system, at least none that I know of, feel free to correct me).

________________________________________________ _______

Why does my child want to play violent video games

[Bladetooth]

This may be a little off topic, but I think it is related; please forgive me if it is not.

People have been over-reacting on the topic of violent video games; it is understandable. They do not like seeing such violence in any form, and they are of the opinion that young children might suffer if they are exposed to it. However, witnessing violence in such mediums as video games, television, and movies is rarely such an experience that might do actual damage. Most of the time, these experiences are "all in fun", and harmless.
The real dangers of exposing children to violence is when particular children do not understand life to the extent that an adult does; what you do can either cause happiness or sadness in other people, just as what they do affects you; if you feel pain because someone has harmed you, others feel pain, that is only because others feel pain when you harm them; and if you kill someone, they do not come back (or respawn or whatnot). Young children do not realize this give and take, and so often do not think about what happens around them, and merely react throughout almost all of their lives.
When this happens, that a child does not truly understand what is going on around them, then yes, putting one more thing in front of them to react to could be very damaging, especially if they start to think that what goes on in the screen is one more way they can react to the world around them. Most children can usually understand that what happens in fiction and fantasy do not always equate to real life on a one to one basis, and that there are always exceptions. However, when you have been reacting your entire life, you are just looking for that one thing you can do to make the hurting stop.
It is of course up to parents and teachers to show children the relationships that govern our everyday lives. People generally assume that this is picked up by everyone, but that is not always the case. Everyone will always miss some nuances of the give and take between people, and the earlier that all of these missing pieces are learned, the better off emotionally a child will be. Children who are very shy (which is quite natural) will generally have less to operate on to start with, and parents should take every opportunity to see that their child can interact with people.
Of course, today's parents have an insane number of things to think about; even if they had enough free time to spend with their child on these things, they may not even realize it, and spend whittle their time away worrying about other things. Even parents who do have enough time to spend with their children will have to deal with parents who do not, and the psychological mess that results between a poorly raised child and a properly raised one. And unfortunately, we live in a society where proper parenting is sometimes impossible; death, divorce, and other disasters abound, and the child not necessarily being able to cope with these problems may have a cascade effect into other areas. Then there are parents who are so terribly developed themselves they could not possibly parent their child correctly.
Let's add in the harsh environment of modern schools: We have people who have been wasting their lives working hard to get to the top of their respective heaps that inevitably collapse perhaps two or three times, depending. The transition from Elementary school to Middle School (or Junior High School), and to High School always means that you were hot, and now are not. Whether they know this or not, they try to be at the top only to make sure that they do not get hurt. A great many people do not realize the damage they do trying to become king of their respective hill, and they only do it so they can have an extra measure of safety. But it is done, and there are always the inevitable downtrodden. The damage is extensive.
Everyone knows who the kings and queens of the hills are. The popular, the fashionable, the athletic; maybe the cool rogue. Everyone treats them well, because maybe if they do, they can get close enough to pull the other down and themselves up to the top; wait for the opportunity, and take advantage for your own. Never mind if the king or queen gets beheaded, the kingdom is yours now. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer, as they always say.
People who are just the slightest bit different are already smashed down to the bottom; they are just leverage enough to make the climb that much easier. And they always scramble back for more, so you can always keep yourself up by putting them down. It is no wonder that people who just react and are among the downtrodden often become victims.
Of course, what happens to the victims from here depends very much on themselves. Some feel so powerless that they commit suicide. Some that can actually see the vicious cycle of abuse, but are too gentle to do anyone any harm would likely to commit suicide also. Those with enough determination and skill can break free from the situation enough to make a place of their own, where the rules don't have to apply (Drama Club, Chess Club, AV Club, Industrial/Design Technology, we all had our "safe havens"). Then there are those that simply do not understand, and are merely reacting; or, they do understand, but they do not care about how they hurt because they are deluded into thinking what they do is justified, or they are even so twisted that they do not care. They are so furious with all of it that they decide they will not take it anymore. And these, without the vision to discriminate those who hurt them and those that would not, are the Columbine Kids.
They are the product of society in that their pain was not justified; they are the product of their parents and teachers in that they were not taught to recognize the difference between right and wrong, and those that would and would not hurt them; and they are the product of their own ignorance, and of their own determination to see only what they find convenient (a world filled with monsters), rather than what really exists.
People who have these problems play violent video games not merely because they are fun (although this does add to it, I'm sure), but because they want to see people's heads pop off, preferably the ones of their classmates, and their dictators (the Kings, Queens, and the institution through which they have no choice but to pass). If your child wants to play violent video games for this reason, you are entirely justified to utterly remove his computer priviliges until he has developed and dealt with his problems enough that he realizes that it is only a game, and that very few people (if any at all) are worthy of the fates of players in the game. Of course, you yourself are also responsible for making sure this does become reality.
However, many people will play these games solely because they are fun, to relieve stress, for competitiveness, and for camaraderie. No assumptions should be made about people who play video games such as these; just as no assumption should be made about people who drive cars, such as "People who drive cars want to kill people with them!". Any such statement for either case is totally ridiculous.

If Mr. Pinkerton wants to do some good, he can start by removing the crowns from the Kings and Queens. No one person should be valued above any other without suitable reason. With no hill to stand on, they have no advantage, and thus anyone they push can push back just as hard. It is in this environment that people can truly learn to get along with one another.
Meanwhile, people will seek leadership and power elsewhere; I would hope that they look to student government (I wouldn't, but it's the only thing I can think of). What I would suggest to further enhance this idea is to allow entirely separate student governments to coexist within a single school, and even a single grade (I would say that they should be independent of grade also). In this way everyone has a chosen and valid voice, and everyone feels they have sufficient power to accomplish their goals.

More on multiple student governments

[Bladetooth]

This is to continue my idea on multiple student governments and how it could be feasibly implemented. Multiple student governments should exist at one time, if only for the purposes of giving particular groups of students powerful enough voices so that other groups will have no choice but to consider them and their feelings seriously. Governments should be grade independent (if so chosen) to make this much more realistic; it adds to the possible population that can make up a new government, and it allows groups that are generally grade independent (and most groups are) to have a legitimate voice. Multiple governments (in my suggested implementation) are to be created for the purpose of maintaining justice. There will never be enough school officials to adequately deal with social problems, and even if there were, only the very trusting would believe that they were genuinely helping the student body maintain social order (even if it were true). Issues relating to money matters (fundraisers and so on and so forth) are handled by the school; each class participates in its own fundraising, and class specific events are withdrawn from class specific funds, while class independent events are withdrawn from either the overall class pool, or fairly between each class (farily being determined on the occasion). These fundraisers should be organized through the school itself, not the student governments; student governments can organize their own private funds (managed through the school), and can contribute to the class dependent pools if they choose. Each government is responsible for dealing with social conflicts within their own group; they determine their own private rules, as well as rules with outsiders participating in their government's activities; they may alternatively opt to allow the school to pass judgement. Only in particularly nasty cases will decision by the school be mandatory (these would be cases that are fairly obvious to most readers). If a person in one government thinks he will be/is being mistreated by his peers, he can seek Asylum from another government, or the school until he can adequately choose another government. Conflicts involving participants from multiple governments are determined in multiple possible ways; either by the governments involved, or with the governments choosing an independent outside party (either another government, or the school), who can add to the voting structure or decide entirely by themselves (this would be decided before any resolution would take place). Again, in particularly nasty situations, the school can override any authority the acting governments have. There are some requirements for a legitimate government to be formed. Each government must have a means of transmitting authority (as in saying "We have decided this"). They must have a means of assigning and taking back leadership. They must have a means of assigning and taking back membership. And finally, they must have some means by which to deal with outsiders. Legitimate forms of government include (and include variations on) Democracy (Who doesn't love Democracy? :P), Dictatorship/Monarchy/Hegemony/Imperial rule, and even Anarchy, properly done (I would include Socialism if I could think of a case for it). Rather than run through a Democratic example, we will run through an example of a Anarchic government. Anyone can become part of the government at any time (with an option to exclude cases where they are part of another government). Everyone in the government gets a say in how things are done. Anyone can propose any idea for discussion, debate, and to be voted on. No one can propose the same thing over and over again (to prevent fillabusters; they'd just work around it if someone was being a jerk). Any time something must be decided on, it does not pass until everyone signs a document (our means of transmitting authority). If people do not want to sign a document, they do not have to; however, at any time, everyone besides that person can vote to oust that person (this allows things to be passed which really should be, and it allows people to be forced out). If someone still wants back in after they have been cast out, and they let him in, then it must not have been too important why he didn't sign (or he just didn't want legal liability). So even Anarchy can be a suitable form of government; provided all the necessary requirements for government in this environment are met. (If this particular kind of Anarchy has a name, please let me know; otherwise, it shall forever be known as Bladetooth's Anarchy!). In this kind of environment, students will feel more powerful, and will feel that there are people on their side. And if they are alone, it will be noticed they are alone, and something will be done if necessary (let's hope the school can manage to keep ONE KID safe...). If problems between governments erupt, then the school will be able to recognize the problem more immediately than if there were problems between other kinds of groups in a traditional school. Because the groups are organized, what one group does will be more expected than otherwise; problems that would have gotten lost through the cracks are now out in the open. Schools can take advantage of this, and have less to police than before; they are thus more managable. Also, they can pay closer attention on education.

Hot smelly grits

[SmellyCarney]

i'm a smelly carney, but i like to use computers. i also like hot grits poured down my smelly pants. does that make me weird?

So close, and yet so far away...

[mfinke]

I applaud Pinkerton's effort to try and make America's schools safe places for children to learn. However they're going about this all wrong. They need to spend their monies educating the educators and counslers on how to spot truely disturbed kids. They could also place counslers into schools to help out those that are overburdened and/or too poor to afford such a service. Possibably even assemble a group of psychiatrists who would be willing to evaluate children identified as potentially troubled at a reduced rate, if not for free if refered to them by this system.

I don't have a problem with giving help to those who need it, especially in their formative years. However the identification of such children, as well as their treatment, should be left to the professionals not to the uninformed who are getting rewards to do so.

What exactly do they do with the kids

[Zara2]

What exactly do they do with the kids who get narced on? I have searched thier web site and it says nothing (that I can find) about this. Do they send out corporate goon squads? Do they call the police, the parents, the teacher? Also what happened to the right to face your accusor? As this stands I (being not in highschool even) could call in a tip on some kid and get him kicked out of school; maybe?

The Electronic Agora at work

[kapelski]

I wrote and presented a paper a few years back about how digital communications could allow more communal input similar to the ancient Greek Agora. Seems like this is compelling evidence that it works (to a degree--I certainly don't expect Pinkerton to respond the way /.ers want them to; but, nevertheless, they're listening). One wonders, though, if this isn't some sort of dubious sympathy PR stunt on the part of Pinkerton. We'll have to wait and see, I guess.

---------------------------------------------
Yes! Oh yes! My soul is snoring! - Tom Servo

Youth Rights

[Gryftir]

Well, maybe this isn't the most appropriate area to bring it up, but,having researched the subject, I just wanted to state some facts and opinions, (which is which should be self evident), on the deplorable state of youth rights in america, especially in american schools. First some facts: (Note: As this was researched in california, not every instance applies to every state, however, case law from other states are often used to argue points and decide verdicts on legality in court. Also, these were last extensivly researched by me in 1994 so not all information is up to date.) Because of various judicial decisions, public schools, while still being government run, are considered to be half way between having the rights of parents and the limitations of a government agency. For example, public schools can conduct searches without a warrant, and with limited (example anon tip of drugs in a locker room) provocation, not just of public property (lockers etc.) but of back packs and student persons. This can include strip, but not cavity searches. First Amendment rights can be extensively limited, including but non limited to clothing, religious symbols, student newsletters, non school sponsored student or individual publications, club and group formation ("those evil chess players are a gang!"), class room assignments and actual speech, the right to gather and protest, and the on campus circulation of petitions. While in certain instances judges have supported students in speech away from school (spee and his band teacher web page for the initated)this is also not free from restrictions. I won't even get into the 5th amendment rights issue, but I've yet to see a trial by jury of peers. Now maybe I'm miss interpreting the constitution, but I believe either the 14 or 15 amendment states that all persons born or naturalized in the united states get the same rights, and it seems the only way this is possible is by not viewing minors as persons. In which case, Us non-entities should get protection from corprol punishment by the society for prevention of cruelty to animals. Reminds me of something about no cruel or unusual punishments. Just 35 (inflation) cents. Flames will be reported to pinkerton. Gryftir.

Ride the WAVE

[Venyce]

Sometime in jr high or high school, we were shown a film about a history teacher who started a little class project to turn his class into an elite group that had much in common with nazi youth organizations. As the film progressed the class became everything he wanted. They had there own secret handshake or sign, and a logo and acted like they were above everyone else.

At the end, the teacher tells them that he can't be their leader anymore and wants to introduce them to the new man in charge. He then shows them a film of Hitler, and they all freak and learn their lesson...

I remembered it because their group was The Wave.

So I'm wondering if this is some kind of joke that nobody has caught onto yet or what.

In any case, the whole thing seems like a terrible idea much like the fictional Wave in the film. I know if I was in school that started such a program, I'd do everything to set off the system just for kicks. I liked what the European said. This is like the kGB and the all the youth groups in the former Soviet Union. It's bad news to teach kids to be rats. Rats never care about anyone except themselves...

Rewards for harassed?

[nixdorf_]

I'm sure that this outlandish idea will prove a bit successful, but the fact that it's a witch hunt is undeniable. I was just wondering if the Pinkerton Corp. was willing to offer the same "cash and goodies" to the innocent victims of this invasion of privacy. Since when is it a crime to be different? Would someone have turned Einstein in for looking different?

nixdorf

Re:Pinkertons? Strikebreakers.!

[monkeyfamily]

They're the same company!

Still around, still hired goons.

The Wisdom of Age (as if)

[Nidhogg]

Having read all the other comments on this topic I'm willing to assume that I'm older than most of the /. population and may be able to offer a different slant on this. Exactly how old is none of your damned business.

Between my girlfriend and I we have four children with ages ranging between 11 and 18. (OK fine so do the math. You know you wanna.)

As with any situation involving individuals if I look at all of them and (try to) compare them I'm presented with four very distinct personalities. And as in any other case there are some good points and some bad points associated with each child (IMHO). This is to be expected and is "normal".

However.. this is from my perspective and not yours. You may see each child as a whacked-out psycho. (And in truth that may be open for debate.) Everyone is a product of their environment.

Any judgment (and this is really what we're talking about here. passing judgment) ultimately has to start from a personal frame of reference. And does anybody out there really think that these children are qualified and subjective enough to pass this sort of judgment on their peers?

Remembering back on my teenage years there's no way I would have been qualified to do it. And if I think back on my friends at the time it quite honestly gives me the shakes to think that they would have been given the power to place someone else under observation based merely on their own opinions. They were (and probably still are) idjits. If I include the fact that they would have been paid for it... well let's just not go there.

The bottom line is you cannot do this. I do not want the children in my family subjected to this. The 18 year old has had problems when he lived with his father. He'd dropped out, had drug problems, alcohol problems, run-ins with the law... but is/was he ever violent? No. And I can state that with the utmost certainty. However he would be a prime candidate to be turned in for this kind of thing. (He lives with us now and things are getting better. Thanks for asking.)

The last thing he needs now or ever will need is to have some Pinkerton goon (hey I'll use the term. I am not afraid.) telling him he's going to keep an eye on him for the rest of his life.

That's my and his mother's job. I'll thank the Pinkertons to stay out of our business.

Re:You come across as being readjusted

[pimproot]

Since then I've managed to get a very active social live which has nothing to do with computers, and I can look back on my school days with a laugh. I've got a job programming, lots of friends and a distinct lack of bitterness. I'm friends with a lot of people who you would label "mental vegetables" - they can't work a computer and they might not be the brightest sparks in the world, but they're nice, good people whose company I enjoy.

Yes, and you love Big Brother too.

Anticipated follow-up...

[ldmay]

Some omniscient observer knows that I can't wait for a follow-up on this one. I wanna' see what Pinkerton Corp. has to say. Pro' some shit.

A question about statements on WAVE Partner's Page

[zoomnmd]

Your Partner's Page mentions the following:

The administrators of WAVE America, Pinkerton Services Group, have created and implemented similar programs for more than 800 corporate clients representing over six million employees in 75,000 locations worldwide. The WAVE America Program reflects this expertise, experience and commitment to ethics in its strategy and implementation.

Do these programs you created for corporations include the anonymous tip line/reward model or do you identify potential risk employees by covert observation with hidden cameras, listening devices, net traffic snooping, etc?

I don't believe I've heard of this (anonymous tip line/rewards program) happening in the private sector.

Skeptical

[jreilly]

Just because a corporation wants to talk doesn't necessarily mean they care. It's quite possible that they want to be able to say "We discussed our program with those who had concerns, yada yada yada." I seriously doubt they plan to consider changing their program. The only way to keep this company from making our schools even more repressive than they already are is to fight this in court.

WAVE vs. Qualified analysis

[Rans0m]

The biggest problem I see is that students are encouraged to make judgements on the mental state of their classmates, a role that should properly be performed by adults - ideally parents, then trained counselors, teachers, clergy, and others in appropriate positions. I realize that Pinkerton will object that the students aren't making the judgements, but merely calling the behaviors to the attention of the appropriate adults. Deciding whether to make the call is a judgement, and creates a system rife for abuse. Most children lack the experience and maturity to objectively decide whether a classmate is a threat to themselves or others. I probably did. I was a geek, a jock, semi-popular, a thespian, a singer, and a whole lot more in high-school (doing everything was my way of getting through high school with a high IQ and my sanity intact), and despite my being a part of almost every major social division I still think it would have been a bad idea for me to analyze my classmate for threats.
Many other posts have provided excellent examples of the potential for abuse against the misunderstood, but any student could be the victim of this type of monitoring. Imagine a critical member of the football team maliciously informed upon before the championship game, or the valedictorian before the graduation speech, or the student applying to a prestigious university or military academy. Could the efforts of these students be derailed by the improper use of WAVE in a zero tolerance, everything gets investigated environment? I've seen the effects of a witch hunt, and the damage that can be caused by untrue allegations in a charged environment. It's not pretty. The WAVE program needs some serious consideration and safeguards to prevent abuse. I won't even get into the issues of tolerance, free speech, unpopular issues like politics, religion, and much more. That's a Pandora's box of abuse possibilities I don't even want to consider.

I'm against anonymous accusation.

[jeffclough]

I've looked over WAVE's web site. The core of the issue for me is the anonymity of the accuser. I believe that this program will foster a generation who are accustomed to the idea of an anonymous accuser. This is a fundamentally unconstitutional idea. Aside from that, it all but encourages cowardice. Bullies feed on cowardice but are often discouraged by sincere bravery. I don't want students to be vigilantes, but they should have the guts to go personally to someone in authority in order to make their accusation. I don't like violence in our culture, and certainly not in our schools, but I also don't want the next generation of adults to think that anonymous accusation is ok. What this cure would lead to is worse than the disease.

Reminds me of a book ...

[K9-Gloucester]

I read a book in middle school called The Wave, ironically enough. It described a school in which one of the teachers did almost exactly what WAVE is proposing, set up a system of "guidelines," and ended up turning the whole school into a Fascist state before he shocked the students into recognition of what they had become. It's actually based on an actual incident, too. This is a 6th grade level book, I don't think it takes a geek to understand what's wrong with this system.

inDEEP Though

[SB5]

I am EXTREMELY angry at this point. Not at the WAVE or anyone directly, but I am mad at that people are trying to provide a solutions to problems, but they do not think them out! What people need to do is instead of idenitifying the problems, identify the problem's problem's problem's. Didn't understand that? Good neither did I... What I am talking about is:

(-1-) Why do these children commit violent acts?

Do research, These kids commit violent acts because of the way they have been brought up, the things that have cause them to do these things, society mistreating them, people not listening to them, people just being ignorant!

(-2-) Why do people not understand these kids and why they commit acts of violence?

Just develve deeper into it, The kids parents didn't bring them up really well(a true american family is a dysfunctional family!), kids abuse them and the authorities(police, prinicipals, teachers, and anyone else that isn't in the kid's shoes but has power) don't help at all! One thing people have problems with are things they do not understand. (Insert Deity Here)[I did take this from another post but I have used something like this in RL conversation :) ] So, (DEITY) forbid that any human may have independent thought... I for one am still in high school and have to deal with this BullethShiteth(gets rid of censorware :) )

Don't identify the problem, SOLVE IT... Offer a psychologist at the school... I don't know the solution... but I do know this is not it... Hey, if they are giving stuff away why not they give away therapy for the students turned it?(BTW If they do I will turn myself and start going to therapy hourly cause if I don't I might just hurt nobody!

READ BOOKS, because IT ISN'T FUNdaMENTAL but it makes you THINK and makes you SMART and makes you have a way off this dispicable ROCK called Terra, or Earth!


SB5, Neither Sane or Insane, not even in the middle or off the charts...

Standing up to be counted

[Sam_Spade]

Let me first admit that I haven't read the majority of the threads here so if I repeat or regurgitate, forgive me. This Pinkerton idea is a band-aid cobbled together because parents and teachers are afraid, but they aren't willing to take responsibility for their kids. Ultimately, the behaviour of these kids falls on the parents. I don't care how many counselors you throw at a kid, only parents raise children. I understand that our society created latch key kids and parents who work until most kids bed times but we must suck it up and take responsibility. I was raised by a single mom who was putting herself through college and supporting me and my sister. Somehow she managed to do it. I was a shy, intraverted, computer nerd more comfortable with my Comodore 64 than most of my classmates but I was raised with a good sense of morality and responsibility and as I gained enough knowledge to act on that knowledge, I chose not to be malicious. I honestly feel for the parents of these kids who do these horrible things and it sounds like I'm being insensitive when I say that they had everything to do with their kids actions. The fact of the matter is that those kids had parents. Whatever those parents did, or didn't do, whatever they said or didn't say, whatever they heard or didn't hear, they raised those boys. They made them, in part, what they are. Of course there are all sorts of environmental factors, or whatever the PC fashionable term is nowadays, but those kids bring those factors home and it is the responsibility of the parents to help their children through whatever life throws upon them.

In regards to this idea of having kids rat on other kids, it's a poor excuse for irresponsible parenting. Teenagers and adolescents are in no way ready to make every decision in their own confusing lives much less the lives of their friends and class mates. I know my fellow /. 'ers have already brought up the question of who decides what constitutes depressed or dangerous, and Pinkerton's concession to consult phycologists is a step in the right direction but to still levy the initial judgement on young kids is unacceptable. If they want to help, perhaps they could set up a system to help parents and teachers out. Educate them in ways that they can see the problems that kids are facing and unobtrusively confront these kids. I really want to stress unobtrusively because most kids have authority problems and if they don't they will if they think that someone is trying to invade their privacy. I applaud Pinkerton for taking the initiative and expanding the effort to do something but that does not mean that something is better than nothing. I also am very proud of /. and all those who wrote in on this topic. I'll probably get flamed for sounding like a melodramatic hippie tree hugger, but this is important.

Good intentions, but too easily abused

[wsabstract]

I agree with JonKatz's original post on the subject. While the intentions are good, such a program is simply an easy target for abuse- both intentionally or unknowingly- by the perpetrators, so to speak.

The fact is, kids are kids, not trained psychologists or therapists. Add to it the playfulness (or cruelness, depending on your interpretation) of people that age, and you're most likely asking for trouble by bringing in such a program. I'm not completely brushing it off completely, just expressing my skepticism.

---------------

Why children act the way they do

[jcwren]

I get really tired of these knee-jerk reactions about how to manage children and young adults. People want to blame TV, guns, movies, and anything else they can think of except themselves. I, personally, think that the reason for a large percentage of the problems we see in children today is a complete lack of parental involvement.

If you are a responsible parent, you know what your child is doing. You know where s/he is, you know who his/her friends are, you know what time they'll be home, and you know if they're acting differently than they used to. If you are a responsible parent, you lay down the law. If the law is broken, the child is punished. Negative reinforcement has worked for millions of years with the rest of nature, and there is no reason to think that humans are somehow exempt from it.

Ever seen a errant puppy get nipped by its mother? And the errant puppy learns not to do what it was doing. Now, you might say "but children aren't puppies!". Actually, yes, in a manner of speaking, they are. When a child is errant, you don't say "Now, Johnny, that was bad". You explain to the kid what s/he did, then you pop thier butt. I'm not talking child abuse, I'm talking simple spankings. There's no reason to maim the child, but as in nature, a little pain goes a long way towards re-inforcing a point.

Along these lines, it is also my personal belief that Dr. Spock (now deceased) had done more to ruin child rearing in the last 30 years than any other factor, with the possible exception of a lack of a parent at home. Now, I realize is this day and age of both parents having to work that a parent can't always be home to ride herd on the children. But it's NOT an excuse for not being involved with your children.

An interesting story was on CNN a few months ago. The teaser started out something like 'One of the highest rated schools in the nation'. I turned to my wife and said "You can bet it's not in Georgia!". I was wrong! Amazingly enough, this school was in DeKalb county (or nearby. One of the big 7 counties). Turns out the new principal came in, looked around, and got parents involved. Parents helped in the library, in the sports events, in the cafeteria, on the school grounds, etc.

At first, the kids thought it was way-uncool to have their parents hanging around. But then it sort of became a status symbol. The school has a virtually non-existent dropout rate. 95% of all seniors graduate, and 90% of them go into college (I may have those last two numbers reversed, I'm working from memory). School crime? Again, virtually none.

And (to re-iterate) why? Because of parental involvement. Because parents know what their children are doing, and participate in their lives. Not dropping them off at the mall, where mall security can baby-sit them, not dumping them off here or there to act irresponsibly, but knowing, caring, and participating in the childrens lives.

Which school was it the kids got caught with bomb building supplies? And the parents didn't notice that junior was acting a little strange? Gimme a break, for all the parents seemed to care, they didn't even have kids. Make parents responsible for the kids actions, and the kids will behave.

There's something else that goes with this, besides just parental responsibility. I realize parents can't do it *all*. Educators need to be responsible. But in this litigatious age, teachers are afraid to do *anything*. Lawsuit for slapping a child. Lawsuit for yelling at a child. Hell, lawsuits for suggesting a child shut up, sit down, and pay attention. Teachers need authority (and a pay raise, quite frankly) to be effective.

Just like a wolf pack, a child will test his superiors. It's one of the ways children grow to be leaders (or followers). The alpha is always being tested. It's our duty as alphas to make sure the pup is held in check until the time it's ready to take it's place in society. Lawyers have done a helluva lot of damage in this respect, preventing parents, teachers, and even society in general from disciplining the errant pup.

Take back control. Know your child. Be there for your child. PARTICIPATE IN YOUR CHILDS LIFE.

-- John

Question

[Red Weasel]

My question for Pink would be how long is the data collected kept and what is done with the information. Is it automatically forwarded to law enforcement or just to the Principal and counselor at the school in question? Is the Data permanently on the child's record? Also would you be instructing the counselors and principles on how to deal with these situations?

How do they determine success?

[billwashere]

How they hell do they determine whether or not the program will be successful? They have one of two choices 1) They grab the kid before he does anything (you just look guilty) 2) They wait until the kid blows up half of the school and then says "Got that one right. We knew he was bad) I don't really like either one of those situations. -Bill was here

Terrifying.....

[jne_human]

When I was in high school I was one of the kids that would have been caught in this net. I was a loner/misfit that hung out with other loner/misfits at lunch and no other time. I burried my head in a computer or model plane whenever I could. I wore unpopular clothes due to my parents limited income. Due to my large stature and gentle nature and the aforementioned 'social handicaps' (for lack of a better phrase) I was often the subject or various forms of abuse by class bullies, jocks, popular kids.

I also suffered with sleep deprivation due to sleep apnea and had yet another condition which impedded my ability to retain information. (I had scored genius level on many tests I just had a difficult time grasping and retaining new concepts.) This affected my grades quite severly at times.

I was never violent to others, in fact I would run from a fight. I was not dangerous to anyone. Yet I am sure that I would have been snared by this program.

As a result of all of the above I suffered from depression on a regular basis. I have since with the help of kind and generous parents and a loving wife recovered from all of these things and am living a happy life.

My point in telling you this?

Due to the above I feel that I have a firm grasp on this issue. Viewing this problem from my perspective I can't help but think that this is a knee jerk reaction to a deep-seated problem. I also can't help but think that this is treating a symptom and ignoring the disease.

If you really want to make good use of those dollars then try doing something intelligent with them. The root of the problem is that these kids that you consider dangerous are really just looking for acceptance.

If you recall the targets of the Collumbine massacre they were jocks and popular kids. I feel that I can confidently say that these kids who commited these acts of violence were suffering from a severe form of feeling rejected by their peers. I also recall that the parents clained complete had no idea that their children were capable of this behavior, and also clained ignorance to the materials used in the events that were being stored in their garage.

Oh Please. Any parents (I am a parent) that do not keep tabs on their children and try to stay actively involved in their lives are asking for trouble.

You want a solution? Try this.

Train the parents. Teach them to teach their children kindness, tolerance and patience. Children need to be taught tolerance and patience at the very youngest of ages, as soon as they can even begin to understand. Before that (and during) the parents need to set an example of moral and tolerant behavior, so that the children have an example to learn from.

Children need alot of attention, but instead of giving it to them the people in this country have a tendency to stick them in front of a TV or game machine or pawn them off on our friends and neighborsor or baby sitters, when instead they need a good game of catch or to have them read a story too, or even help with their homework, or even just simply be listened to.

What is needed is to retrain this culture to get away from selfish attitudes. Parents need to be selfless with their time and heart with their children and children need to be taught to be selfless and tolerant with/of each other. If this had been done with the students that were on both sides of the violence in Colorado the violence would never have happened. The jocks/popular kids would never have been cruel and intolerant and the perpetrators of the violence would have had a strong enough moral compass to know that violence against another human being is just plain wrong.

And for those of you who are saying 'what about defending yourself against an attacker?' I will defend myself and my family from violence, but consider this: what if the attacker had been taught the values from an early age and had a good example of it in their lives? Would they have been an attacker then?

Parents! Teach your children! Do not pawn them off on someone/something else! If you do not then the fault is yours and yours alone!

This program is not the solution. It's the beginning of new problems.

Questions about the past

[Dr Qwe]

Granted, I'm too young to have lived through the McCarthy era (http://grid.let.rug.nl/~usa/H/1990/ch8_p5.htm). But I learned about it in history class. The McCarthy trials were always taught as a low point for American rights, for American freedoms. A time when friends and neighbors turned on each other and where even being thought to be a communist would ruin ones career. I would press Mr. Katz to remember the McCarthy trials, and to ask Pinkerton Corp. if they remember the McCarthy trials. And if one of the goals of studying history is to not make the same mistakes we made before.

Re:U Americans must be crazy!

[wontok]

Yep, and the USA could always re-introduce slavery. Do you have enough cotton fields? My point being that history should not be used as a tool of attack unless the person you are attacking was personally responsible for some aspect.

Re:U Americans must be crazy!

[wontok]

Gee, that's a bit harsh, especially considering that Thomas Jeffersons' definition of freedom included the freedom to own slaves. Wayne McDermott Australia

Witch hunting

[Gwarlak]

Many students (if not most) are not mature enough to be given the power to "turn in" their peers if any of their peers are depressed or dangerous. What will happen is students will use this power to achieve revenge on people they dislike. I predict something like the Salem witch trials. Students will go around pointing fingers with no evidence. Although the goal of Pinkerton might be to help students. If a student's peers find out that Pinkerton is helping him/her then he/she will suffer. The student would be labeled a nut and forever be different in a way that Pinkerton could never help. Of course Pinkerton could do nothing about this because confidentiality between Pinkerton and anyone would not stop the "news" from spreading.

depression

[Perdy]

I never saw the first post of this, and i guess it's a good thing that i didn't, because i would have gone off on ranting and raving. Personally, i think this is seriously wrong. To get a fucking prize for saying someone is depressed? you know how many people would have new clothes every week just from me alone? depression in school is tough, and guidance conselors and whatnot do not help in anyway. hell, i even say a shrink for awhile, what did he teach me? to argue my points stronger as to why this world is BS, and how none of it really matters, and none of it is worth a shit. these are my opinions to this day, and yet if this were happening in my school while this program was going on? what? someone would get a cap? would get a fucking t-shirt? that sounds like t-shit to me. look, i'm sorry if i'm going off the topic, or for all the profanity, but i'm just typing, and i'm really upset about this. hell, i didn't even read the full body of text (which i prolly should have) but the first couple lines are just enough for me. To me, i think this is sickening. appearently these people have never been depressed. And they don't know what it's like to live like that, and then on top of it to have a PROFIT organization be told about it, and then have them do whatever, counsole? who knows, like i said, i'm sorry if i'm going off topic, or just saying stuff that really doesn't mean anything to you. but i'm too irritated with this. i seriously .... ugh.

Re:depression

[Notok]

I guess I should have thought of this before clicking "submit", but I didn't so an ammendment will have to do :) Perhaps a more viable alternative would be to reward the kids for doing well, rather than for turning against eachother. Offer rewards for doing well and improving their work, while providing means and incentive for those not doing so well to excell. I think it would be a lot more realistic to have a faculty member be able to talk to a student in a non-confrontational manner and be able to offer solutions instead of critical finger pointing. Be able to show the kids that there is something out there that they can do, and that there are those out there that can and do understand. I don't think trying to force them to change will have any positive affect. I do believe that if you show them that there is help, that they don't have any reason not to take the help, and that they can be helped on their own terms would render much better results. Add in incentives to take the help and USE the help, and I think that things would be off to a much better start.

Re:depression

[Notok]

I think there is a point here not to be missed. This actually reminds me of myself a bit when I was in high school. My parents, among others, always accused me of never opening up. The harder they pried, the more I clammed up, I remember my stepmother saying explicitly. I, and I think many others, was partly the way I was because I didn't trust anyone. This includes authority figures. When I was a freshman in high school, I started acting out in a self-destructive manner, mainly scarring my body. At one point one of my teachers turned me in to the school counselor who tried to console me and ultimatly called my parents. The thing is, I didn't understand what I was feeling. Since I could not make sense of what was happening, I couldn't percieve anyone else being able to. My prior experience with counselors only left me with lasting frustrations that only led me to believe that they could not and would not understand. So I learned to clam up. I learned how to tell these people what they wanted to hear so that they would leave me alone. If I had the added pressure of knowing that anyone at my school had the power to "turn me in" for being who I was, the chances are I probably would have simply withdrawn from that situation. I believe that the WAVE program would do little more than make the teens with real problems feel alienated. I believe they would see it as anyone being able to "turn them in" for not fitting in. I do not disagree that these teens need help. I simply think that taking this approach will do little more than make these kids feel that it is bad to be different. I think that if these teens are going to be helped, they are going to need to be helped by someone they can identify with and trust, and on their own terms. Not just someone they see as trying to change them.

Are there protections for possible Abuse victims?

[Animania]

In your system, are there any protections or means of intervention for possible victims of Abuse? These victims often fall into the categories you seem to be targeting, withdrawn, depressed, anti-social..... Is there any mechanism in place to try and help these children before they are simply marked as a potentially dangerous individual?

"Unlawful" possession of firearms

[LKH]

I don't get it - if you 'lawfully' own firearms, then that's not a 'warning' sign. You must be some nice, socially adjusted jock (who has never bullied anyone), who just wants to own a gun to shoot some possums.

If however, you "unlawfully" own a firearm, well, you're probably going to take it to school tomorrow to shoot some people.

How the hell does legally letting you own guns suddenly make them (and their owner) safe?

I liked the way they said to call 911 in the case of an immediate emergency. Are people that stupid in North Carolina that, in the event of an emergency, they would go to their computer, fire it up (come on, come on), start their mail client (hurry up), and send an email to wave? Thank God they told us to ring 911 instead.

And on the imminent warning signs, they say "self-injurious" behaviour is a bit of a worry. So if I stub my toe say, or give myself a paper cut (flicking through my latest O'Reilly book) - does that mean I'm about to go on a murderous rampage? Where do I turn myself in?

T-Shirt

[richlb]

I find it ironic that Pinkerton is giving away t-shirts for anonymously turning in potentially disturbed classmates. I can see them now, opening up the just-delivered package and trying on their spanking white trophy -- "I Turned In A Classmate Anonymously And All I Got Was This Lousy T-Shirt."

What the hell are they thinking?

[cwyln]

I am so completely horrified that I'm sick. I sent a message to the folks at WAVE thru their website. This is precisely the reason I've not yet had kids myself. I'm terrified of the brains (or lack thereof) that are running the show -- they are reactionary, elitist, conformist, Orwellian ogres. For crying out loud, *I* was one of those kids: oddball, artist, outcast, freak -- I remember how tough and lonely it was. What the hell would it have been like if I was reported for being different as well!!! This really does make me physically ill. I don't understand the mentality of these adults beyond being fearful, short-sighted, shallow fools. It's terrible. What don't we just round these kids up and put 'em all in camps just to be sure....God!! Does no one ever learn??????

Re:And the problem there is?

[B-B]

"And isn't prevention better thana Cure?" By jove, you are right. Let's do this, then. Lock up all the Frat Boys. After all, they have a propensity to rape women. Get rid of all the guns. After all, we do not want to accidentally shoot a relative coming home at an odd hour. Anyone who listens to rap or punk or indy needs to go to juvenile detention. After all, people who liste nto these kinds of music are likely to be in gangs/skinheads. Hey, we are forgetting cars. They kill more people than guns! Get rid of 'em. We cal all ride mass trans. OK. no more adultery. The most probable murder or assault scenario includes adultery or revenge for as the motivation. All adulterers should be locked up for their own good. Lock up all the dissidents. They tresspass and break (unjust though they sometimes are) laws. Arrgh. I forgot, we have to get rid of signs of ostentatious wealth. The display of wealth motivated some to steal. Does this world sound familiar yet? Some kinds of "prevention" are doubleplus ungood.

reports

[slats]

How about a program that rewards kids who turn in bullying harassing jocks? Or loud mouthed rednecks? Or any of the many other easily identifiable groups that can make scool life hell?

Re:Questions for the Pinkerton Corp.

[streetlawyer]

They came first for the Communists...but I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews... but I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the Unionists...but I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Unionist.

Then they came for the Perl programmers, and I said "Well, seems that nobody's all bad".

Re:Am I the only one...

[streetlawyer]

Look on the bright side; Pinkertons has a long and ugly history of having people beaten up, from its days providing strike-breaking goons to Ford and Rockefeller. If Katz pisses them off sufficiently, there's an outside chance that they may decide to work him over.

Re:The Onion's take on Geek Profiling

[khoronzon]

Word, brother, school administration blames the victim of mundane and routine daily abuses. Plaintiffs are indeed admonished to resolve their own personal problems (a protocol that mysteriously vanishes should the victim draw upon sufficient force to be effective both in communicating their desire for just treatment and in deterring/preventing retaliation for their self-defense). The edict, "Don't be a tattle-tale," is not a problem isolated to school. Human culture, even down to the family unit, has integrated too many checks and balances against defenses for oppressed persons (especially kids). Think back to the last five bully situations your own kids have had. How many of them did you assertively fix for your child's comfort, versus how many you used as a chance to teach them to be tough or resourceful and handle it like a strong independent person? If you don't have that sort of parenting experience yourself, for a template of reference, think back to your own parents, when you wore the little shoes... how often did they actually take your side? Do we take the initiative to show our own kids that it's okay to ask for more help/protection/support than some grown-up authority figures say? I think so, but we should be aware that it will slow that process of "toughening" that our kids need, too, and it is true that nobody likes a tattle-tale. Nobody likes a crazed gunman, either. Choose. Word is born. On the other hand, I think we are at great risk of confusing the issue as we relate Columbine-type situations to bully problem resolutions. Like the author of the WP story you referenced said in closing, the shooters had gotten away from those cut-and-dried issues and ended up doing something more adult in nature: complicated, convoluted, twisted and out of proportion. Speaking of convoluted and out-of-proportion, have you noticed how little actual deviant behavior it takes to incur the negative attention of authorities lately, since the public has reacted to the media-generated "rash" of mass homicides? We live in a culture where: a) Kids want each other dead because they don't want to play nice. b) Kids can be expelled from school and arrested for picking up a dropped note they didn't write that happens to include a morbid joke. c) We can be fired from our jobs because coworkers are allowed to see us become exasperated with difficult work and report "feeling threatened." I gather Pinkerton feels that this little hotline is going to effect something, somewhere? Where/how, exactly...? Thanks for reading.

sure, cash brings out the best in people

[issachar]

sounds like a proposal a heard about a few years ago to pay kids to stay off drugs. now is it just me or does the idea of paying people for doing something socially responsible seem stupid? (and it is responsible to tell something if you think the person sitting next to you is going to blow Susie's head off tomorow)

something like this is just WAY too open to abuse.

If you want to set up an anonymous "Stop Violence" hotline, GREAT! Just make it don't pay people for it, that invites even more abuse than you'll get no matter what you do.

Pinkertons

[ddyne]

Wern't these the guys that were the main strike-breakers at the beggings of organised labor in the late 1800's?

Probobly will be difficult to negotiate about this with them =D

dave

Listen, I actually do have a point

[psicic]

Okay, as you've probably gathered from my other posts, I am a geek.
A proud one.
I have tried to read as many of the above posts to see if anyone has made this point, but I'm quickly running up a huge phone bill, so I'll just make my point anyway...
If my school had been privy to a system like WAVE when I was attending, I would have had no problem in using it. In fact I, and many more people I know, would have relished the idea of contributing to something "...bigger than any one of us are...", while also contributing to an idea of public safety and reaping material rewards too.
I think this is what WAVEAmerica is counting on. I think, however, that they have left themselves too open with their criteria, and I can definitely see how I could have lapsed into vindictive reporting.(Yes! An admission that I'm not perfect. It'll hurt my fans, but it had to be said!).
Now, whatever spin you want to put on it, it is probably paramount to WAVEAmerica that it turns a profit(be it their primary goal or whatever;^), and this could hinder them greatly with their criteria. But it can be used as an effective part of a good PR spin....look to sourcing local, talented recruits in important fields. For want of refining the point down too much for you(without getting paid the mega-bucks that your paying your own whizz-kids these days, that is), hire the trained and semi-trained 'experts' (define that as you will) as field agents of a sort... the people who check up on most, if not all, reports.
Source the talent from local univeristies and the like, with whom a favourable contract could be negotiated. Arrange with the local school system to be allowed to sit in on classes where reports are recieved, again a contract could be negotiated, this time with a good PR spin.
Look, basically wave should set itself up with a greater emphasis on drawing more of the loose threads of NC society together creatively, to create a positive, profit-making American sucess.

"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"

[MPCM]

Into: From what I've read, there seem to be glarring security issues in this system. What, if any, are ways to provent the abuse of this system? Q: How does W.A.V.E. plan to handle the hacking, cracking, social engineering, and general abuse of this system, especially with the suggested anominity?

Questions for the Pinkerton Corp.

[nicholai]

What do they think of the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem witch trials, the Nazi regime in Germany and the McCarthy hearings of the 1950's? Do they see the similarities?

Liability?

[spungey]

If someone anonymously identifies me as "at risk" (for whatever), and this changes the behavior of the school, which in turn changes the behavior of the other students ... it changes my life and my future. Probably not in a good way, especially if the accusation is untrue. This appears to be straightforward libel. Is Pinkerton willing ot defend anonymous sources in court?

sugestions for WAVE

[reive]

All of these suggestions I view as "compromises" -- things that would make the WAVE program less dangerous while stopping short of what I personally believe is the best solution, which is a total scrapping of the whole thing and all similar initiatives.

1. WAVE needs to create student advisory groups to express concerns and report on how this proram is actually effecting their schools. WAVE needs to go out of their way to recruit a broad cross-section of kids -- not the just the leaders, popular and comfortable kids. And WAVE needs to really listen to what they say. This needs to be more than a PR measure.

2. WAVE needs to create lists of things other than danger signs. WAVE needs to create lists of things that are NOT danger signs and that they will as policy not act on. Things that should be included in this list include fashion statements, shyness, individuality, an interest in computers, religious and sexual preference, etc.

3. If WAVE is going to be in schools, it needs to get into the business of education. WAVE needs to institute peer-led tolerance initiatives that support individuality, free speach and a persecution-free school environment for all students.

4. WAVE must eliminate all rewards for reports to its hotline.

5. WAVE needs to make clear that no student will ever be considered a suspect by it or the school it is opperating in for choosing not to participate in WAVE programs.

6. WAVE needs institute anonymous hotlines for kids to call to express their anger, frustration and sadness.

7. While WAVE should protect the identities of those who make reports, WAVE should not allow anonymous reports. False, malicious reports should be investigated and disciplined.

8. WAVE should create mentoring programs open to all students that will pair them with a young adult who can relate to their concerns and act as an advocate for them outside of the heated worlds of family and classroom.

9. WAVE should create youth-led education programs for parents on youth culture so that they can make informed decisions about their kids interests versus relying on paranoid innaccurate news briefs (remember the great goth scare?)

10. WAVE should commit itself to an open records policy that would allow anyone, of any age, to get statistics on reports to WAVE and their validity and the consequences of both valid and invalid reports.

11. WAVE needs to re-position itself in a pro-youth way. Adolescence is not a crime. This proram needs to get on the side of youth, not on the side of adult's media-induced paranoia.

12. No program like this should be run by a for-profit organization. Because fear sells, any for-profit organization running a program like this is going to engage in unethical behaviors whether they intend to or not.

13. WAVE should agree to submit to a watchdog group. Slashdot'ers (or whoever) should get together to create a group that would serve as a watchdog over programs like WAVE, censorware and other initiatives that are anti-youth, anti-technology and anti-freedom of information. If children aren't exposed to the real world, how the hell are they supposed to learn to live in it?

Re:I have a report

[ZenGolfer]

Inevitably someone(or some group) comes along to further their own goals or(in this case) profit at another's expense. This has happened throughout history and shows no signs of waning. On one level, this could be a Darwinian form of evolution, but I do not believe that is not the case here.

What the WAVE group is doing is ridiculous. It brings up thought of the Spanish Inquisition, the early American witch-hunts, and Senator McCarthy's anti-Communist crusade in the 50's. "Turn in your neighbor so people won't think you're a Commie!" That went over like a lead balloon.

The witch hunts were the same way. Accuse the woman of witchcraft after your wife busts you sleeping with her. "She must be a witch as she had me under a spell!"

What's to prevent today's youth from acting in similar fashion? They're even going to get paid to turn in their peers. There is so much room for abuse of this program.

There is also the "Revenge of the Nerds" scenario whereas the 'different' students put an ironic twist on things and start turning in cheerleaders and football players as "depressed" or "dangerous".

It's vaguely apparent that there is some good intent here, but as we all know, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

I wish I had a more reasonable solution, but all I can do at this point is voice my opinion.

Re:How about these Apples.

[spacenut20]

I hope THIS comment was read by pinkerton corp. Because THIS is what is going to happen if this insanity is allowed to continue.

Pushed over the edge / Practical Questions

[navyrain]

Obviously this program has good intentions, but I think that this is not the way to go about it. Here's a concern:

- If a person was indeed troubled and angry at his/her fellow classmates, don't you think that a teacher/counselor/WAVE representative/somebody calling them in somewhere and talking to them about their troubles would be enough to push someone over the edge? Even if the counselor was very gentle and kind, the real world affirmation that the student was an outcast and was a concern would be enough of a jolt to make them "flip out."

If this program does get implemented, here are some practical questions about some specifics of the program:

- Is your program really anonymous? There is a difference between confidential and anonymous. If you are going to not have people give their names, perhaps you could at least give them unique numbers, so they still could avoid giving their names, but you could see that person #4415 just turned in their entire class. It could be used as a crude tool to root out some of the people who would abuse the system.

- From what I've seen in other posts, it sounds like one of the incentives you plan on providing is clothing. What clothing are you going to give them? Unless a person can select from brand name clothing, it will not be an effective insentive. Shirts and whatnot made by you will not be cool; I'd expect that it would be undesireable popularity-wise for students to openly participate in this program. In other words, don't try to give them shirts with your logo plastered on it.

Past Present Future

[midnightthunder]

Is this the same company that paid James McKenna aka James McParlan to operate as a "mole" and agent provocateur among Irish Miners so that members of an activist group could be imprisoned or hung. Men whose posthumous pardons have done them little good ? Is this the same company that sent Charly Siringo into the Couer de Alenes to "mole" among the enemies of big industry there and act there also as an Agent Provocateur in the labor troubles ? Is this the same company that conspired with a Governor of Colorado to bypass the laws of due process or extradition, and kidnap three labor leaders from that State and into Idaho to put them on trial for their lives ? An attempt this company fortunately lost due to the dedication and skill of Clarence Darrow. Is this comapnay so anxious to reclaim a specious past ? Does anybody in this company have any idea what the U.S. Constitution is really all about ? IT AIN'T ABOUT BUILDING A BIGGER BETTER POLICE STATE. NOR IS IT ABOUT "THOUGHT POLICE". Have any of them even heard of the Federalist or Anti-Federalist Papers ? Aside from opportunistic CORPORATE GRANDSTANDING, do these people believe in anything of depth ? GEORGE ORWELL'S NIGHTMARE STILL LIVES

Finger is STILL Pointed in the Wrong Direction!!!

[Pangus00]

Forgive me if I am repeating a sentiment that has already been expressed on this topic, but I think it is a message worth repeating.

Simply put, why is it always those students in the "minority"-the so called loners, the alternatively-minded, that are on trial here? This has completely boggled my mind for a long time now.

Why is the "blame" not being directed towards those people that inspire rage-the attackers-those that prey on what is outside their comprehension. Where is the proverbial finger that should be pointed at them for their acts of cruelness and inhumanity???

Who's to blame for this ignorance? I don't think I have time to expand upon it, but I am sure many other's can.

What's the solution? Again, I'm sure other's have more time to expand upon this. But heaven help us if Al Gore suddenly launches a "Nerds Can Be Kewl Too Campaign"! Maybe we just need more folks with "alternative lifestyles" in Congress!

Given that the current mainstream posterchild for geeks at their "best" (please notice the quotes around best) is Bill Gates, I'd say there is much work to be done!

My Rant Has Concluded. Thank You.

Pangus!

Re:My biggest fear about WAVE: a tool for bullying

[Darth Wally]

Pinkerton's status as a for-profit company practically guarantees that WAVE will turn into a paranoia-spreading debacle. Even if WAVE begins with the noblest intentions, it has nowhere to go but down in the current climate of hyperprotective soccer moms and ineffective adminstrators.

School administrators, who are notoriously numbers-oriented, want to see results. The school principal doesn't want to hear that his investment resulted in only 20 innocuous calls for the entire school year. He wants a report detailing hundreds of dangerous students put away and three vicious plots to blow up the school foiled by his incredibly wise decision to bring WAVE to his campus. If Pinkerton does not supply the numbers, the administrator will drop the program.

Bean-counter tendencies of administrators aside, it is quite likely that in the beginning WAVE will be operated by intelligent, dedicated people with a sincere interest in helping schools and students. Or it might be operated by a bunch of incompetent fools, but I'll assume the best case for this argument (it winds up the same either way). If WAVE functions as a system for truly watching out for students--distinguishing false reports and following up true problems--the system will be helpful, but it won't produce high numbers. Despite what many believe, schools are not under constant siege from bombings and mass shootings--these events are rare. In most schools, WAVE will not find any dangerous plots at all. The principal sees WAVE's lack of results and decides the program just isn't catching enough troublemakers (after all, there MUST be a swarm of vile little teenagers planning all sorts of destruction at his school). WAVE is dropped, and the Pinkertons lose money.

After a while these losses begin to weigh heavily on Pinkerton--without swarms of reports and high-profile captures, WAVE won't catch on with school administrators. Pinkerton soon has a choice--cancel WAVE, or increase the numbers so the reports look better ("1,000 School Shootings Avoided Last Year Alone!"). And even the dedicated employees don't have much choice but to up the number of "captures"--if the program doesn't sell, their jobs are history. So even if WAVE starts with the best of intentions, it is going to degenerate to jumping on every false rumor and malicious report that comes in just to keep the program alive.

One could argue that it's in Pinkerton's interest to keep WAVE's reputation clear--that WAVE needs to have good PR in order to gain customer support. A program full of false reports is hardly good publicity. So, if Pinkerton wants to be successful, they'll make sure to protect innocent students and only pursue truly dangerous cases.

This would work if we lived in a world where soccer mom parents weren't harping on administrators to institute every harsh measure imaginable to curb the imaginary scourge of widespread school shootings ("imaginary" in the sense of being widespread). And bean-counter adminstrators don't help matters either--WAVE's success depends on how effective it is in making administrators look like they're curbing teen violence, not in promoting justice. Even if/when WAVE develops a reputation as bullying's greatest friend, it won't matter. Adminstrators pay for WAVE, not students. And Pinkerton does not risk much damage in reputation if WAVE becomes an inquisition--corporations that hire Pinkerton for security and employee background checks hardly care if a few high schoolers get hurt by WAVE (The little brats probably had it coming anyway).

What Pinkerton does with the information it collects is another huge concern--a for-profit company, especially one with an interest in background checks and private information, has no reason whatsoever not to keep information on students for later use. And even if students complain, they have no power--it's the administrators who decide whether to implement the WAVE program.

The only way WAVE can avoid these problems is to operate as a nonprofit agency--and Pinkerton is not suited for social work. A nonprofit organization has less pressure from schools and economics to bring in as many students as possible. Also, unlike a group run by a company specializing in background checks, a nonprofit group has no reason to hold onto personal information once the student graduates high school. Help lines should not be operated by the school, however--that's just an invitation for administrators and teachers to figure out which students to chase out. The ideal help line is operated by a nonprofit agency, destroys all files once a student graduates, and keeps its records private (giving schools personal information only in cases of immediate danger). WAVE has none of these characteristics.

Darth Wally--The Cynical, Lazy Lord of the Sith

Re:How about these Apples.

[sharkface]

Couldn't have said it better. Kids who are "different" need help and understanding, not the added fear of persecution because they don't fit in with the crowd. Not every depressed person lashes out, or even stays depressed. Yet another attempt to homoginize America. Be the same, think the same, dress the same. It's a GAP,GAP,GAP,GAP,GAP world. Blech.

Re:Question from a brainwashed point of view

[sharkface]

Aww come on, you think that in a country that is awash in guns, that glorifies guns in the media, that itself used guns to obtain/claim/pilfer/rob the very land upon which it stands, shouldn't have the right to get it's knickers in a twist when we have some school shootings? You are implying perhaps, that we are being hypocritical? You obviously haven't nursed at the bosom of Democracy my friend. It's bitter at first, but you soon find you'll aquire a taste for it. Sieg heil

Letter to The Pinkerton Corp

[GBLS]

To The Pinkerton Corp, I cannot understand how gathering this type of information will prevent school-yard violence. Does your product GUARANTEE that any school where it is installed will be violence free? It would be pretty sad if children's rights to privacy were given away, but you propose to PAY people to sell children's private information. This is simply immoral. If you wish to release your product at least remove the financial incentive. Children will use this product with an enthusiasm like Pokemon card collecting. They will lie and cheat to get the free stuff, making your entire database absolutely useless for its intended purpose. Lastly, I live in Australia. Children here do not bring handguns, uzis, or assault rifles to school. The real solution is to pass laws to prevent children from getting access to guns and ENFORCING it. Nicholas Boyle

Don't fall into THE TRAP, KATZ! Don't "Turn in...

[Nixon69]

Don't turn in the "jocks".
We will be hypocrits

There have been a lot of useful sugestions here, and among the most attractive is to 'modify' the WAVE concept to turn in "the jocks" and anonymously rat out the harass-ers, not the harass-ies (as we fear would be the result of "Geek Profiling").

DON'T DO IT.

It only sounds attractive to us after our multitude of hellish experiences in school. But our hopes are that we can enhance kid's freedoms. And jocks are just disturbed kids too. If Pinkerton can 'win us over' by listening to us, they are JUST USING PSYCHOLOGY. They could just invite you there to listen to your concerns and then say, "Well, this is how we plan to deal with the kids. We want to listen to them"... my @ss!

Stick to your guns. Child-violence is a result of alienation, harassment, and socially retarded values of 'normalcy'.

Ask them how WAVE is going to function if the Administration of the schools does not want to investigate the school's community leaders?

And what kid is gonna wanna run for student council if they have EVER done anything wrong?

Strange how quickly the children's peer society is beginning to resemble our "normal adult world".

My 2c. :/

A comment from a parent of two

[msbrown]

Dear Pinkerton Corp.;

I am the father of two children. My perspective: If the administration at my child's school comes to me about my child needing "counseling" or "therapy" due to "reports of depression" or other behavioral issues -- I will take them seriously. My child's welfare comes first, and I will follow up.

Given that schools seldom employ fully-qualified mental health specialists, I will of course ask what led them to come to their conclusions. If the answer comes back anything other than "detailed observation, here are our notes" -- for example, the answer is "an anonymous tip from WAVE" -- then you (along with the school district of course) can reasonably expect to be asked to represent yourself in a Texas courtroom. You see, labeling children based on anonymous tips most parents do consider to be a Bad Thing.

And that's the most likely outcome of your program,
stigmatizing labels placed on children without proper basis in fact. This is based on my experience with school adminstrators, who in general do not have the education or skill to *properly* deal with these issues (not to denigrate them, though, they have a tough enough job trying to educate kids).

Mark Brown

Re: Cards in school...

[leshiye]

I think I would have been turned-in to WAVE in High School... I played ST:TNG CCG at lunch with all of my friends, I dressed all in black for a long time, I was constantly depressed and when I didn't have my nose in a book, I was monkeying around with the computers. I didn't talk to many people. I was increadibly shy. I had a horrid home life that I never wanted to go home.

You know, if they start singling out kids like the one that I was in HS, well, let us retaliate.. Umm... lets see.. Can I turn in the jock/preps that threw me in garbage cans or stole my homework and turned it in in their names?? How about the guy that turned me down for a date? Umm, oh, and the teacher that gave me a B even though I deserved an A... Can I turn him in too???

GRRR!!!

Questions for Pinkerton

[swm]

1. Ask what the false positive rate for the WAVE program is. 2. Ask what the false negative rate is. 3. Ask how they measure these rates. 4. Ask if the phrase "peer reviewed" appears in any of their protocols. 5. If they don't know/won't tell, then posit that the FP and FN rates are both 50%. If they balk at this, go back to question 1...

Re:How about these Apples.

[Heimrich Himmler]

Yes this is good ya ya, I do not believe we (I mean the Reich) came up with this idea at any time. I believe this Pinkerton group would of been a good edition to our cause ya ya. I do think that the good Nazis should be desiminated from the rest of the herd by issuing nice red arm bands ya ya. Oh well, back to tending to my llamas ya ya. SEIK HEIL ya ya this is good.

Want to have some real massacres? Implement wave!

[Anonymous Coward]

Warning: Bitter ranting

Ok, adios +2 bonus, so let's see if this gets read.. Be forewarned: I'm not from the USA, in Canada, we have the Kid's Help Phone, it's free, and it helps kids, not helps feed the world's largest prison (criminal education) system.

I was definately a oddball in school, and most certainly would have been targetted by my peers under this program. Nevermind that they get the slap on the wrists for what would amount to an assault conviction in the real world (several of those people are in the slammer now). He's smart and we've cast him out - oh oh. He might be planning some horrible revenege! Lock him up! What the hell is wrong with you people in the USA?.

As one poster pointed out, I had some real good revenege tactics worked out in minute detail. But I didn't do it. Why? Because I knew it got better. I knew my life would be successful, and those idiots were headed for a horrible existance. Do I sound arrogant? Bitter? Damn straight I am. Those bastards can rot on the street. I'm upset enough my tax dollars go to clothe them in prison. But that's a side issue. Outside of the hellish environment of school, talent is rewarded, not punished.

Let's say I get thrown in one of those detention facilities because I'm a danger to my peers. Now, I'm smart - I know that my chances of a first-grade university education are finished, and I'm unlikely to get a good job. NOW, I'm pissed off. You want a good high school massacre? Wait until some disgruntled youth spends a year or two getting "Reeducated", plotting proper weapons tactics and bomb placements, learning how to make chlorine gas, learning how to properly fuse ordinance. Columbine could have been a thousand times worse if not for lady luck.

So, rather than push people on the brink over the edge, why not HELP. I'm ALL FOR the Wave program! That is, provided it targets the people that are the real problem - the people physically abusing those weaker than them in a feeble attempt to impress their peers. Throw the book at THOSE people. They're the goddamn freaks, not Johnny Trenchcoat who just wants to hack code and play AD&D, or quake, or whatever.

Rant off. I just hope some schools think about WHY they get unstable maniacs. hint: It's not because geeks are outcast. It's 3-15 years of institutionalized abuse and torture. Add someone who IS unstable, has a bad home life, and bad shit is going to happen.

Re:Accountability

[Anonymous Coward]

So if the system is anonymous, how do the kids collect the cash? I'd be turning in my classmates for every comment they make for $20/pop if I can do it anonymously! In fact, you might want to offer Direct Deposit services. ;-)

In this system, will the quantity of "tips" on a person alone be grounds for their "review"?

I'm concerned about the ability to review any such "turn in poach...er...weirdos" system (be it private or public sponsered) because the subjects are minors. Funny how a program which is designed to violate a minors rights might be protected from review by simply stating "they can't release any information because the information deals with minors".

If the company is still developing this program as I write this post, then it obviously will have to go through refinement after it is implemented. Yea, yea, hire a few professional shrinks, but what about public input/review? I'm assumming this program may be implemented in Public Schools, and as such (and as a parent) I'd be interested in reviewing how they profile my children.

What kind of "local community standards" will be applied to determine the legitimancy of threats? What is the norm for uber-urban schools would rank as "DANGER!" for rural schools. (...or "# insmod catholic_school_module".)

Would "profiling" of suspects be included? Heck, it would save a lot of time on each call if you just had a profile of each and every student. That way the weekly call about "GeekyBoy plays quake at home!" could be conviently ignored or added to a "history of consistent suspicious behavior".

Can we "pre-load" profiles for each student while we are at it? Computer-lovers get the "geek" standard profile, Sports-lovers get "Jock", darksiders get "put_in_jail_right_now" profile. Again, a simplification of what people's preceptions of who the students are will surely lead to a quicker identification of potentially dangerous humans.

Speaking of profiling...why not keep track of family structure (divorced families have more stress -- mark one against them), current social status (BoyBeta just broke up with GirlTheta -- additional stress imposed, thus mark this one with a "suspect" indicator), GPA (after all, GPA is the one number that tells us EVERYTHING about this student, right?), involvement in religous activities (church or cult?), fashion (he wore a TRENCHCOAT today?!?), racial identifier (insert sterotype of various races here), and involvement in other activities (gangs, after school sports).

At what point are the police/FBI/ATF/CIA involved? Reported threats to blow things up or start fires are serious offenses -- when do the big guns get involved and who notifies them? ..and tell me once again WHEN are the parents notified?

What kind of parental involvement is currently planned in this program? Am I, as a parent, only notified if my kid is a "danger" or only after he is arrested for being a suspect? Can I, as a parent, be allowed to explain away some behaviorial quirk (fear of open places or perhaps fear of a color)? How secondary am I to the process of protecting "everyone's children"? Do I get a "behavioral profile report card" at the end of each quarter/trimester/semester just like my kid's grades?

Again, I have concerns about being able to review a process which I initially view as being biased to a lifesytle which I lead when I was in H.S.

-Anonymous, yes, Coward, no -- just too lazy to sign up for an ID.

I'm Sparticus!

[Kurt Gray]

I'd like to turn myself in. I don't think I'm a danger to anyone, but there was this one time in high school where me and some friends took all the chairs from the cafeteria and hid them backstage in the auditorium so everyone had to eat lunch standing up, and we laughed, but I realize now it was WRONG! *sob* I WAS BAD!!! It was years ago but still, damn I SHOULDV'E BEEN A JOCK!!! I'M SORRY!!!

Can I have a t-shirt now? Large please...

Re:The "warning signs"...

[Danse]

More disturbing was "Conveys violence in writings and/or drawings." Lot of room there.

Ack. Glad I'm out of high school now. I used to draw guns and battle scenes all the time. Mostly comic book style stuff, but I wasn't much of an artist. Seems like drawing a picture of a gun would likely get me expelled these days, and I'm most definitely not a violent person.

Re:Saudi theory does work

[Danse]

Great. How many innocent people have been executed? They just executed a lady here in Texas even after her lawyer was convicted for intentionally losing cases for money. Maybe she was guilty. Maybe she wasn't. The point is, we don't know for sure. The legal system is very imperfect. There are a bunch of ways to get convicted of something you didn't do. They actually accept the testimony of a convicted felon that was given in return for a reduction of sentence. Bought and paid for. And we're supposed to rely on this system to determine whether I should be allowed to live just because I get convicted of something? Screw that. At least someone in prison can be released (and compensated as much as we are able to offer) if we later realize they weren't guilty. Can't do that after you've fried 'em.

"I turned in my classmate, and all I got..."

[Fastolfe]

I'm reminded of Homer "Thompson" wearing his flashy "WITNESS PROTECTION PROGRAM" shirt and matching cap.

Parent notification and general purpose of WAVE

[kdoherty]

For the moment I'll ignore the problems with providing incentives and possible false positives, as one of the things I didn't see addressed was notification of the parents of a potential "problem" student. Everything documented seemed geared towards notifying the school (and, more generally, protecting the school rather than helping the problem students, but that's another story).

If there is a sensitive issue that needs to be taken care of, it needs to be treated as gently as possible, and I would think that going through the parents first would allow for the least harmful and intrusive way of dealing with the situation. Certainly there would be situations where the parents would be ineffective or unwilling to cooperate for various reasons ("My child is perfectly normal", etc.), but by going through the school, you force that situation to be handled in the primary public social forum that the child is a part of.

While one could argue that the school's first course of action should be contacting the parents, that really begs the question "Why the hell do we need WAVE America in the first place?" There's no aspect of this that requires coordination on anything but a school by school basis. Why can't the school simply have a box for anonymous reports? Sure, WAVE America does some pre-processing and gets specific information, but when it all comes down to it, WAVE America still relies on the school to take those reports and act on them appropriately.

I'm sure that Pinkerton has good intentions (protection of students) in mind, but I really fail to see how this program could in any way be construed as a good idea.
--
Kevin Doherty
kdoherty+slashdot@jurai.net

Exhaustive research...

[Millennium]

You claim that your findings on "early warning" and "imminent danger" signs come from exhaustive research. This is impossible, seeing as their have not been enough major incidences of school violence, nor has enough time passed during this current "generation" of violence, for any research to take place that could possibly be called exhaustive.

However, if you go back to the shooters themselves and analyze their motives, then with the exception of two (who were already known troublemakers) you will find many of the same things:

• A peer environment which is outright abusive towards those who are different. The average intellectually-oriented student can expect to go through this type of abuse every day, some of which is of types that would land a parent in jail, or bring a dictator before a war tribunal for human rights abuses.
  
• Administrations which simply look the other way from this abuse. Some actually encourage it, by way of, to give an all-too-commen example, sports coaches who manage to get star athletes leniency for the sake of something as trivial as a winning season.
  
• Loss of school funding for programs which intellectially-oriented students benefit from, notably "gifted and talented" programs but also the arts.

In short, these shooters are not born mad: they are driven to madness by ineffective school environments which encourage the abuse of the intellect.

Given this, how do you justify creating a system which only allows intellectially-oriented students to be abused more than before (via the inevitable abuses of your system), rather than nipping the problem in the bud by attacking what drives these students mad? The latter, while more difficult, would certainly be far more effective. Once a person is traumatized, by peer abuse or by other means, that trauma can sometimes never be healed. But it could have been prevented. Clearly you have resources to at least lay the foundation for something like this. It isn't as easy as your current quick-fix, but it does work. You can take a sane person out of a madhouse, but the sane person remains sane, and the madhouse remains a madhouse. You haven't fixed the problem at all.

the worst kind of popularity contest

[MoNsTeR]

OK, here's my take on this thing: it's a popularity contest backed by the force of law. Here's my (admittedly stretched) line of reasoning:
1. government = force (in the words of G. Wash.)
2. public schools are run by the gov't
3. NC's public schools will be directing at least a part of their disciplinary measures (ie: force) based on information from WAVE
4. WAVE gets its information from students
5. the "majority" students have every incentive to phone in reports on unpopular students, such as geeks, Goths, racial minorities, religious minorities, and other miscellaneous "undesirables"

So if the NC schools take the information they get from WAVE seriously (whether out of genuine concern or knee-jerk publicism is irrelevant), there will be a popularity contest supported by the force of law. Don't like someone? Turn them in for... being different! Get your friends to turn them in too! How could WAVE ignore a dozen corroborating reports?

It really reminds me of the French Revolution. Once the real revolutionaries had taken down the tyrants and beheaded them, they set up their own gov't. But woops! Turned out there were enough people who didn't like this new regime to get /them/ beheaded as well! This continued for so long, and so many heads rolled, that it's a wonder France survived it.

As any student (prisoner) of our school system (jails for minors) could tell you, inter-clique rivalry, intra-clique rivalry, and rivalry between cliques and the clique-less ranks high among their foremost worries/concerns. It certainly is more important to most than.. gasp!.. learning. Even those who want nothing to do with it, as I didn't, have little choice in the matter. Even if one chooses to ignore it, the influence against them is still there. We should be discouraging this with all our persuasive might, not legitimizing it with rewards and incentives.

Perhaps worst of all, I see no checks or balances on this system, other than the judgment of administrators, which anyone who's had any involvement with schools can agree is worthless. Who figures out what calls are legitimate, and which are pranks? Do WAVE and the NC schools go into this with the knowledge that upwards of 99% of the calls WILL BE PRANKS? I doubt it. The reactionist nature of post-Columbine "reform" does not doubt the legitimacy of its motives or goals. WAVE and the NC schools are going into this venture fully expecting to turn up hundreds of "depressed" and "dangerous" students, and if they don't find real ones, they'll make up enough to meet their expectations, never mind how many lives get ruined in the process, or how many of our sacred rights are trampled upon.

On a related note...
I remember hearing of a Supreme Court ruling handed down during the era of Vietnam protests. It concerned some students who wore black armbands to school in protest of the war, who were suspended. The ruling upheld the students' right to do this, saying somethine along the lines of "the students do not check their Constitutional rights at the door". I wonder how long it will take for this precedent to be eclipsed? For our post-Columbine reactionism to take the last vestiges of rights away from minors, to make them slaves to the first-class citizens of America, the "adults".

I recall the events at my own high school (George Washington HS, Denver, CO) immediately following Columbine. Trench coats were banned. An assistant principle and the school police officer colluded to create a "black list" of potentially dangerous (or whatever) students. Wearing shirts of the bands that the killers identified with could get you on the list. Playing Quake could get you on it. Doing or saying any number of other things that someone associated with the killers could get you blacklisted. So I wore my KMFDM and Marilyn Manson shirts with pride. I played Quake, and talked about it. If I had owned a trench coat, I'd have worn it. I did my best to show everyone how ignorant they were. I even confronted the principal with the blacklist (about which he didn't even know). I learned a few things. Mainly, that many of the ignorant masses are just that, ignorant. And when confronted with the truth, will accept it. But we must lose no ground, concede no defeats. As Capt. Picard said in "First Contact", THE LINE MUST BE DRAWN HERE, THIS FAR AND NO FURTHER!!!

MoNsTeR

Re:Question from a european point of view

[Nicolas MONNET]

Well as atheist and anti christian as I am, I did'nt think of that. That being said, that Wave things looks so surprisingly similar to the Sekuritat and Stasi (use of the phone, etc ...) that the parallel is more striking.

Good question. Another one:

[Nicolas MONNET]

What if a racist antisemitic crack-dealing pimp saved your kid's life?

"Me too"

[Tomster]

I too was one of the "geeks" in high school. It was bad enough knowing that my peers basically rejected me (one of the things most teenagers want is to fit in), but I had a certain amount of faith/hope that adults and society in general would treat me better. Being turned in and undergoing "evaluation" or "counseling" would simply have convinced me that society thought I was some sort of weird deviant, which I half-thought sometimes anyway. Knowing this would undoubtedly have pushed me over the edge. I doubt I'd have taken anyone other than myself out -- I've never been the violent type -- but I'm glad I'm around today, and I have friends and family who are glad I'm in their lives as well.

I'm both saddened and scared that the response to tragedies like Columbine is to change school policies to treat "different" kids like dangerous freaks. It appears that somewhere along the line we stopped expecting parents to do the hard work of raising their children. That is, spending lots of time with them, showing them that they are valued and respected, teaching them what it means to have good character, helping them grow into mature adults. For some reason, that doesn't seem to be valued by society anymore. (At least, not in public.)

Organizations like WAVE only make it easier for parents to let someone else do the work: "Well, if my kid has any real problems I'm sure the school will take care of it. He spends lots more time at school than home anyway, so they have a better chance than I do of seeing something. And the way things are at the office I just don't have a lot of time for anything."

The real solution IMO is to change our (visible) societal values to encourage parents to Do The Right Thing. The question is... how?

Re:Dear Pinkertons:

[Signal 11]

Alittle OT, but surely you recognize that IQ is a highly subjective test that hardly even *begins* to explain intelligence other that visual/spatial abilities?

As to being deviant.. they are mathematically correct... with an IQ of 160 you're, what, 5 standard deviations to the right..? Not that I'm complaining.. I've had similar problems... I can swallow entire books in a day.. my teacher refused to give me extra credit for reading long books after I read a 700 page report and gained so much in extra credit that my book report simply read: "Read the book. Interesting, I'd recommend it. It's 700+ pages long. Now give me an A." In 6th grade, it's apparently not expected people will read more than 250... :)

Anyway... as to "cream of society".. keep in mind that society in general wants cute but dumb girls and hunky CEOs for guys ala hollywood style. The idea of some frazzled engineer building satellites somehow doesn't strike them as the creme de creme of their world.

Just giving you a much needed reality-check and ego deflation. That'll be $6.50 plus tip. ;)

Re:KISS

[Signal 11]

The AC that flamed you is a good example of why it hurts to be a student.

Part of my high school "career" dealt specifically with overcoming people like that - they have nothing constructive to say. Anyway, I'm 20 now and I had to graduate with a GED - high school towards the end was going straight to hell... 2 arrests in as many weeks, public protests, leafleting of the building.. this was in a conservative town of 10k out in Wisconsin.. middle-class bible-loving people. They were outraged, indignant, some of THEM were violent. The police were of similar composition - they were tired of the whole debatacle.. they just wanted me to leave.

Believe me... I have an intimate understanding of how and why these things happen. Most people thing that these kids just fall off the face of the earth after high school.. that they don't exist in the "Real World". We do. But we don't talk about those experiences.. while they taught us alot about how the world works and forever redefined the true definition of freedom (which is that true freedom can only exist in a place where it is safe to be unpopular) is also a chapter in our lives that we would rather leave closed. It's emotionally devastating.. and it is often linked to real physical ailments like depression and social anxiety. I couldn't.. and still can't.. deal with some of the things that happened to me. It's very embarassing being a male and having to ask for help about stuff like this... I find it as no suprise many people don't ask for help.. and die lonely and depressed.. it is truly the hardest battle of one's life.. and to go through it without even understanding why.. at that age.. my god..

It's a truly sad state of affairs.. but in a democracy people often forget that the mob makes the rules; the majority can often have the wrong opinion of what needs to be done. The result is a vicious circle that eats away at itself.. and it's citizens.

Pinkerton?

[Cid Highwind]

Is this the same Pinkerton agency that protected the robber-barons of the 1890s by beating union activists, helped A. Mitchell Palmer round up communists and anarchists during the first "red scare", and colluded with Sen. McCarthy in his witch-hunt against the supposed "communists" in the government?

Why are we letting any corporation, let alone one with a century-long record of trampling civil liberties handle school security? Has the NC state government lost it?

"wave program"

[Autonomous Coward]

...is a reference to "The Wave", an old ABC Afterschool Special. One of my (only semi-clueful) teachers showed it in class when I was in HS ten years ago; I'd highly recommend it. Here's a link:

http://us.imdb.com/Title?0083316

Re:Kids and Guns

[cronio]

EXACTLY! Those kids who have never been properly trained with a gun don't know the awesome responsiblity that comes with it. While I don't live in a house that has a gun in it, I've used guns since I was 8 or 9, but used them in a proper way. Holding the gun, feeling it fire, seeing the dent it makes in the sheet of metal behind the target, seeing the flat bullet after it's hit that metal, make you realize just how powerful things like guns are. The same thing applies for videogames. When you see someone explode in a violent videogame, does it make you want to go out and kill someone? NO! The REAL problem is with things like "Loony Toons" on TV. How many times have you seen a cartoon get shot, have holes go through him, and get right back up? Kids being trained that it's not possible to die because of things like that are what the problem is. When you've been seeing things like that all your childhood, it makes it hard to believe that the gun will actually permanently kill anyone.

In short, don't blame the violent things that actually show the awesome power of a weapon, blame the violent things in which the person who got hit falls over with a hole in his body, and is back in the next scene.

Ok, I know this was a little bit off topic from the WAVE thing, but I felt it had to be said.

This can't happen. Please. You'll kill them.

[Wee]

If this gets implemented, kids are going to suffer and badly. Budding engineers, mathematicians and computer scientists are going to be labeled, in an officially sanctioned way, and then made to conform against their will. This will break them and they will retaliate, perhaps violently. I know this will happen. In fact, it did (don't ask about the sodium hydroxide in the jocks' lockers or the JB Weld in the door locks during a fire drill). This whole Pinkerton thing is spooky. I know it is, because a similar thing happened to me.

I grew up with asthma, yet I liked sports. When I tried to play baseball or basketball (I was 6'2" in 9th grade), the teachers got afraid of this note that had been circulating since I was in grade school and which I had not known about. The note (which was purely unofficial) mentioned one period of overexertion, a brief (and useless) hospital trip and my mother's anger. I wasn't to hurt myself while at school, she said, and she was mad at the school for letting me do so (even though I was a kid, and kids do things that are physical).

So I couldn't play sports even though I tried, and even though my childhood asthma has long gone away. I probably shouldn't have tried because it made the stigma worse. I was branded, and an outcast. I was the tall geeky kid that had a mysterious. dubious cloud hanging over him. Pretty soon I started fitting into that mold. The only thing that saved me was the Commodore VIC20 and BASIC. I could -- and did -- spend hours on that thing. I spent so much time on it because nobody else knew the first thing about it (and I didn't have to worry about it liking me). So I found my niche.

It was a completely asocial activity and a totally complete way of removing me from normal adolescent society. I didn't get (m)any dates, even though people say I'm not at all bad looking. I just didn't know how to interact with people, much less girls. I can't say it was harmful since I'm a happily married stock option millionaire now, but it might not have been the conducive to preparing me for a normal life, and many people might not have had the perseverance (or technical inclination) I had. I knew I had to make things right the only way I knew how, so I got an education; a lesser being would have grabbed Daddy's shotgun and started plugging away during third period. It's amazing how much shit you can take after you've had to deal with BASIC.

Every day I went to school and got laughed at and made fun of, even though I'm a very sociable person, funny, nice, and people now generally like me. I was a pariah in high school, and a pariah before it was cool and you could get away with it. I had to break new ground in being a gloomy, moody, socially introverted, outcast kid. I was the quintessential geek prototype. I was even in the chess club, and I even played Dungeons and Dragons (although it seems really funny to actually spell out the name "D&D"... :-). The reason is because I was labeled. And once I was labeled early on, that label stuck.

Imagine it's 2002 and you're like me: spending all your time on the computer, logging on to BBSes (!) and not going to parties, dances, homecoming, track and field. You'd rather be on the PC. What happens? You get labeled. And you'd probably get labeled in such as way as to prevent you from being on the PC. And then you'd have no outlet, yet the label would stick (trust me on this: the label will always stick, even 18 years later). You go completely nutty and you react the only way a teenager can: you act out.

So people (the word "educators" makes me sick) decide you need "integration" and regular "activities" to achieve "normalcy". So they put you in PE and sports and all that (in "low stress" activities, mind you, which makes it even worse) and you get your ass kicked, your shoes filled with shit while you're showering, names called, fights picked, stories told, etc. It's a horribly cruel life and the only thing you come away with is you know that POKE and PEEK aren't what you do in the shower and how to kick a big guy in the knee (or hit him in the throat) before he hits you so you can still run away. But your teachers have your best interests at heart. They want to make you "normal". Pardon my French: FUCK ALL THAT NONSENSE. They should encourage and nurture whatever gifts a kids has, not get their brown-nosing, toady classmates to turn them in for money! What the hell kind of message do you think that sends?!?

You will KILL children with these bounty programs. And that's what they are: bounty programs. I KNOW I would have been turned in, and I know I would have reacted against those that ratted me out. I know it with all my heart. Hell, 18 years later I can even remember the names of the people that would have been first in line to turn me in and get their cash (Blake Bottle, Kevin Maloney and Todd Peterson are you out there?). I would have been dead if I hadn't been left alone in school. I mean, we're talking eight years of hell here, with the only solace being my one other geek friend and a really bad computer. If people could have turned me in for being shunned?!? Jesus, do you realize what that would have done? Ever play "Smear the Queer" when you were in school? They probably call it something else these days, but the concept is the same: shit on the other guy as much as you can because you can only feel good about yourself if you make someone else feel bad. People felt good because of me a lot.

School was traumatic, sure, but I got over it, mostly because my parents saw what was happening and bought me new computer hardware all the time :-). The only thing good to come of it is that I'm extremely sure about who I am and what I can do (and those guys who ridiculed me are probably going to be installing the Corian counters I'm having installed in the new house I just paid cash for). But if I had had classmates making money by turning me in for being what little of myself I could show in public, I'd have either taken my own life or taken a rifle to school. No wonder kids are drawing a bead on their fellow classmates with things like this Pinkerton bounty going on. I would have too. I'd be in jail instead of writing ecommerce apps and having babies and thinking about carpet and 401(k)s. It's not right to snuff out a budding geek before he find his calling, that's what will happen.

Ugh. I can't talk about it anymore. I pray to God that my kids never have to deal with Pinkerton's ideas and WAVE-like programs. If they, do, I'm finding them a school that cares about them. Heck, I might even still react to their Orwellian persecution. Who's to say I'm socially viable after what I've been through? Maybe if my co-workers could turn me in for a bonus or a t-shirt things would be ok... :-)

-B

Function of the system

[Anonymous Shepherd]

Lets say you unroll WAVE as it is. How do you expect to filter out significant (we'll ignore whether they are correct or not) submissions from the noise?

*Every* teenager, to some extent, goes through angst, pain, loneliness, and insecurity. At any point, an angry teen can turn in another, when both are behaving perfectly normal.

Your
<a href="http://www.waveamerica.com/waveline/earlysig ns.htm">Early Signs</a> page lists things that are so vague that they apply to almost everyone, depending on how sensitive, subtle, or eager one is to try to 'get' someone.

Some thoughts then. If your system describes perfectly ordinary people, how useful is the system? What's really going to happen, I suspect, is that you'll get so much noise that you'll be swamped. And the problem won't be false positives as much as you'll see the true problem. That many people are lonely and hurt and suffering.

-AS

It takes a lot of courage

[humphrm]

I must say that aside from the comments others have made thus far pointing out the possible defects of such a program, I have to give Pinkerton some amount of credit for being extremely courageous.

(I can just feel the fingers flying on the keyboard-of-flame now...)

Police organizations are not public corporations, and thus are not exposed to (as much) liability with regard to invading a person's privacy. Certainly, if the police make a "bad arrest", they have to (a) let the person go, and (b) sometimes apologize, but by-and-large no multi-million dollar litigation awards are found against the police departments and Attorneys General offices of America.

I've always thought that American business stayed out of the law enforcement business (except for private law enforcement, the kind that Pinkerton pioneered) because of the threat of loss of viability that a bad call can make.

Pinkerton clearly is courageous enough to risk their stockholder's equity to buck this trend.

I await with much anticipation the first time that an otherwise harmless social outcast with deep pockets, such as you might find in the New Trier school district in Wilmette Illinois, hires his own tort lawyer after being fingered by Pinkerton, and subjects them to a legal ass whuppin' the likes of which they've never seen.

I'm proud of Pinkerton for having the courage to expose their stockholder's to the unlimited capital liability that one single screw-up can expose them to in the name of "saving high school." Good luck.

1984

[Randy Rathbun]

Currently I am reading 1984. The first thought that came to my mind when reading about Pinkerton a few weeks ago was how much this sounds like the Spies in the book.

They guy that lived accross the hall from Winston was actually proud of his little girl for turning him in to the Thought Police because she overheard him talking in his sleep about "Death to Big Brother."

My question for the list: "Have you ever read Orwell's 1984, and what do you think of turning kids into real life Spies?"

Katz, please don't let him off the hook on this question if you do decide to ask it. I would love to hear a straight answer from him.

Re:Question from a european point of view

[Arandir]

Oh, way before then! Try Babylonia.

Author of "The Crucible"

[Randym]

get a book called "the Crucible". I forgot who wrote it

"The Crucible" -- a stage drama -- was written by Arthur Miller, who also wrote the famous play "Death of a Salesman".

The Wave

[calibanDNS]

I'm suddenly reminded of a movie that I saw in a middle school history class. The plot: a teacher, wanting to demonstrate how Adolf Hitler was able to turn Germany into an anti-sematic state so easily, forms a club on his campus and invites all students to join. Slowly the club turns into a neo-nazi type organization with hatred channeled at anyone who doesn't join the club and play by their rules. Members were encouraged to report friends who didn't join or adhere to the club's rules. The club was called The Wave (which I believe was the name of the movie too, but I can't be certain). Scary stuff. Maybe the developers at Pinkerton should watch this movie before rolling out their program to see the kind of horror they could be starting with this program.

~Caliban

Aren't there laws against this sort of thing?

[joshamania]

Does anyone know if there are any laws against this sort of thing? I seem to remember companies getting in all sorts of trouble by collecting information about minors. These companies got in trouble for collecting marketing information, specifically, but I don't really see how collecting psychological profiles would be any different, if not worse.

damn

[Obiwan Kenobi]

I don't believe it. I truly don't. How in God's name do you (Pinkerton) expect this to help kids? How does the reporting of them, anonymously, after they might have had a bad day helping someone?

It's obvious that this should be a help line and not a hurt line. There should be someone on the other end wanting to talk to these kids, hear what they have to say, listen and try to understand them. This should not be a damn snitch line! When is it that people will understand that silence in the classroom from a kid doesn't mean he's planning on killing everyone. It might mean he's thinking or just daydreaming (god forbid). There are such things as withdrawn people who turn out okay, who understand high school is a crock of shit and once its over life does get better, who understand that this ends at some time or other. There are others that do not. And these are the ones we should be helping! (Key word here: "Help") They should not be alienated, reported, incriminated, or persecuted for being different than Joe Quarterback or Susie Cheerleader. These kids need attention in a helping sense, not someone pushing ideals and psychology exams at them. Leave that shit alone. Of all the pretentious things I've ever heard of, the "T-shirts and prizes" took the cake. Good Lord, what a mess that would have been. I appreciate the fact that Pinkerton listens. I just hope they hear us.

E

Please do not start this program

[revscat]

As has been documented elsewhere, such profiling is dubious at best and harmful at worst. Further, the dubious usefulness of anonymous tips have even been questioned by our current schizophrenic Supreme Court. Anonymous tipping in the hands of angry and powerless high-school students is simply ripe with abusive potential. No program of this kind will be able to successfully prevent school shootings, no matter how good it might make us feel to know it is in place.

- Rev.

They may want to think about the name...

[K8Fan]

When I saw the name of this program, I thought of one of the best ABC "Aftershool Specials" ever, "The Wave".

Starring Bruce Davison, it was based on a real incident. A skilled and empathetic teacher was trying to answer a student's question: "Why did the people of Germany follow Hitler?". So he set up an experiment, and created a symbol, a stylized wave logo, and became leader of this movement. The "Wave" movement stressed Power, Discipline and Superiority. They had "Wave" t-shirts, banners, etc. Anyone who was not part of the movement was an outsider, and wound up being threatened.

This film had a profound effect on me when I was in school, and I'm stunned that the company was so clueless that they didn't do a simple search to find out that "The Wave" had already been used as a noxious symbol of school opression. Bad corporation! No cookie!

Re:I Find it Ironic

[H3lldr0p]

Actually I think that you might be on to more than you realize right there. Let's project the adult's reaction into a wider societial area.

Who's in charge right now? The Baby Boomers. Those 40's and 50's-somethings that grew up durring the 1960's and made such a fuss about the wars and peace and love. Essentially they made a huge mess that took a while to clean up, and in all reality the mess is still here.

However they had this experience of shaking the foundations of their oppressive society. They have a underlying, if not basic, understanding of how this happened.

And because of that they understand what to look for to keep it from happening again.

Now before somebody thinks I'm paranoid, let me say this: I don't think that all of this is planned. Nor do I think that this is something that is seen on a consious level.

If you look at how Social Scientists examine cultures, they define the "purpose" of the adolesent as being one of discontent and challenging their parent's world. In turn the parent's usually try and socialize the youths to a norm and keep them from changing too much. In the end it became a form of keeping the status quo.

And who better to keep the status quo from changing than those who changed it once.

Re:Here are the criteria they use; from their webs

[canter]

[1 Hits or bullies others.]
If I remember correctly, "hitting" is also called "assault" and can be handled by the local police. "Bully" i take to mean "to treat in an overbearing or intimidating manner". So every high school Phys Ed teacher will be in BIG trouble now.

[2 Expresses uncontrolled anger.]
As opposed to "controlled" anger? Define "uncontrolled".

[3 Has unlawful possession and use of firearms.]
The key word again is "unlawful". Why aren't the local police called in these situations?

[4 Displays intense intolerance or prejudice.]
So intolerance is unlawful now? I hate stupid people, absolutely cannot tolerate them. Now come arrest me.

[5 Has excessive feelings of isolation and/or rejection.]
So how does someone ELSE define whether MY feelings are "excessive". Perl Jam would get 20 to life under this criterion. Probably 90% of geekdom felt excessively isolated or rejected in school.

[6 Conveys violence in writings and/or drawings.]
Dealing with violent emotions through writing or drawing seems like a damned HEALTHY way to vent to me. A lot of people call this "art".

[7 Uses drugs or alcohol on campus.]
Again, where in the hell is local law enforcement? Do we REALLY need yet another avenue of oppression?

[8 Makes threats.]
Define "threat". Saying "You'll be sorry!" could suddenly get me on the "list".

[9 Suddenly has bad grades or little interest in
school.]
Gee, perhaps school SUCKS. Perhaps I'm daydreaming about summer vacation. Perhaps I can't quite fathom Chemistry 101. Now I'm on your "list".

[10 Is easily angered by minor things.]
Again, define "minor". People cutting me off in traffic angers me. A president that lies under oath angers me. Stupid people anger me. Uh-oh. I'm on the "list" again.

This ill-considered garbage is put out by people more concerned with making a buck while appearing politically correct than with truly addressing a complex issue.

Who was it that said "for every complex problem, there's an answer that's simple, elegant and wrong?"

I would say this makes me angry, but i don't want somebody dropping dime on me!

Re:Fury

[goliard]

Don't blame teachers and administrators in schools. The problem they face starts much earlier than school - and is down to parenting and home life.

Nonsense. They are complicit in a system whereby a demographic (the young) is deprived of liberty and all rights otherwise guaranteed citizens, and this is done without due process of law, no finding of guilt nor accusation of crime. That violence should errupt in such system should surprize no one. Human nature is not suspended in the young.

A century ago school administrators and teachers collectively agitated for state mandated school attendence laws for the self-serving purpose of guaranteeing themselves work; to this day they obstruct every effort to make that incarceration less burdensome and more humane, because it would deprive them (they feel) of job security. (I live in Boston -- you should see what the teachers' union has been up to this month!)

I have no trouble holding them accountable for the conditions in the institution they built and defend.

Until attendence at state-run or state-approved schools is no longer mandated by law, there will be no "solution" to the problem.
----------------------------------------------

Re:What if your family *IS* your problem?

[goliard]

Alas, it is not Pinkerton's job to care why you were depressed, only to prevent your acting out in/against the school.

And if you were a depressed, abused child, you certainly are meeting their criteria. Many of the most violent students (in my experience at least) are/were being smacked around at home.

Being a victim is a threat by Pinkerton's lights. And they're not wrong. But their job is not to fix the problem of hurt or damaged people; it's to prevent the hurting or damaging of an institution. That is part of why they are so scary.
----------------------------------------------

Re: correction, number is (888) 960-9600

[anticypher]

From the Raleigh NC News and Observer newspaper of
02/11/2000

Schools to get program aimed at violence

RALEIGH -- Gov. Jim Hunt announced Thursday a comprehensive violence prevention program in the state's public schools that will employ a toll-free student tip line, a Web site and an awareness campaign.

The program is called Working Against Violence Everywhere, or WAVE. It is the result of recommendations from the Governor's Task Force on Youth Violence and School Safety.

Pinkerton Services Group, a division of the international security firm Pinkerton Inc., will staff and operate the toll-free line, (888) 960-9600, on which any student, parent or school staff member can notify authorities of school violence concerns.

Pinkerton and the Raleigh-based Center for the Prevention of School Violence have developed a contact list of school and law enforcement personnel in each of the state's school district who can be contacted if needed because of hot-line tips.

the AC

Which Pinkerton's is this, Corp or Inc?

[anticypher]

For some reason when I first read this I thought it was a strange field for the world-known security company to be setting foot in. Pinkerton's Inc is the company that specialises in armored car cash delivery, security guards for concerts, and consulting services for heavy duty physical security. Pinkerton Corp is a much smaller company specialising in data processing fraud control, and seems to have products similar to WAVE. Jon, can you find out who exactly this company is?

I would think the upper management are already feeling the probes of a few high profile lawsuits, and are trying to feel out how bad it could come down on them. Perhaps their lawyers assured them the constitution of the US was repealed a few years ago, and this is perfectly legal. Perhaps they are being threatened with copyright infringement.

The shocking part of this program is offering incentives to kids to snitch out their classmates. Why stop at a few dollars or a T-shirt (I doubt they will be giving out Korn or Marilyn Manson shirts :-), why not let kids know they can get better grades by filing 20 reports during the school year. Hell, I didn't even think twice about helping my friends grow marijuana to make a few quid when I was young, and it was majorly illegal. A system like this which will give me a few dollars just for naming a name will be a no brainer.

Eventually you could make the system mandatory, every student has to make at least one anonymous claim against another before they can graduate. This was a basic skill taught in old communist East Germany by the Freie Deutsche Jugend, every student had to regularly make reports about fellow students, their families, and their neighbors. This action carried over into adulthood, making the entire country report on itself to the Stasi. Now this action is so ingrained in Ossies it is a big security problem for companies in Germany, and many companies have now instituted a no-ossie policy for all sensitive work, because corporate espionage is so easy with an ossie.

I can't see any kids wanting to wear a cap or T-shirt that would associate them with being a rat-fink, except for possibly a few misguided troublemakers. I can see an opportunity for knockoff shirts worn by the pranksters stating "I ratted out my friends for this T-shirt. Be nice to me or you are next"

What safeguards, checks and balances, neutral oversight, and legal penalties are in place to prevent abuse of the system, either by the government or students? If one of the Pinkerton Überwachen abuses the system for personal gain, will they face lengthy jail time? Will Pinkerton gather all the information on students in North Carolina (and maybe the whole US), and a few years down the road start selling that information to insurance companies or job research firms? If they do violate the law, will the president of Pinkertons go to jail? Somehow I doubt it.

Look further down the road after this system has students fearing to make a single misstep, and you can see this being used as a peer pressure tool by adolescents. "Suck me, you bimbo cheerleader bitch, or me and the whole football team will call WAVE and tell them about your suicidal tendancies" will have a lot of impact, especially on a young girl who may have already been put through the WAVE wringer because she is anorexic or once got depressed after a breakup.

A system whereby accusers can remain anonymous is wide open to abuse. On the internet we call it flamewars, trolling, spamming, sniping and a whole bunch of other bad names. We should know better, we can see how the internet is, which is why a system whose only output is to make students afraid is a very bad thing.

the AC

Re:I have a report

[Hard_Code]

I also have a report. There are several groups of people that cause a lot of trouble in school. They gang up to pick on people who aren't like them. While they typically are on the lower end of the grade scale they perennially win the popularity contests to gain positions in government. They are aggressive, belligerent, and violent. They ritually don cultish clothing and beat each other up on fields, and are celebrated for this.

Please, if you see any of these people call the free number so they can get the help they need and can reenter society rehabilitated.

Re:Question from a european point of view

[Hard_Code]

Damn I wish the moderation system would be revised. As it is I get moderation points when there are only stupid posts and articles around that I don't want to moderate. For months now I've completely abandoned moderating because I simply got a bucket o points when there was nothing interesting around. Hey, how about giving some /constant/ or /renewed/ amount of points that people can use whenever they want.

It's poor AC gems like this I want to moderate up but can't. +1 Informative

Pinkerton Thugs: a bit of historical perspective..

[jcr]

Let's not forget that the Pinkerton Agency got its start in the last century, providing hired thugs to violently attack striking workers. If you don't believe me, look up the Pullman Strike.

This company's history is one of thuggery, up to and including murder. It's no surprise that they want to cash in on school officials' paranoia with a database of people who "don't fit in."

I will donate one thousand dollars to the first lawsuit against Pinkerton brought by any person that this pack of jackbooted thugs slander by sticking in their database. Anyone else?

-jcr

Re:I hope...

[es-mo]

I sincerely hope this is successful, too. However, if there are people out there who want it (and from the attitudes expressed by NC leaders, there certainly are), there are people out there who will build it. Even if Pinkerton listens to the voices of reason and stops this scary venture, someone will step up in their place to serve the needs of their country . . . cough . . . make some money.

I'm overjoyed that Pinkerton is at least being open to listening to the public. Would that everyone were so responsive. Some day, however, something like this will happen and the only way to fight it will be through legal routes. This project is in violation of constitutional rights, and I hope and pray that when the day comes there will be people willing to fight it, lawyers willing to take the task on, and jurists perceptive of the gravity of this.

Re: worked well -- yes, but not in this scenario.

[reve]

As a writer (and all around media super star!), you're well aware that _how_ a person utilizes language has a tremendous impact on how their message is recieved.

Words like "geek" and "geek pride" have been fantastically succesful and well recieved within this community, and I think they will continue to work well (though with enough hype and commodification, just about anything can lose its power.)

The point is, using a phrase like "geek" casually in this context would ultimately take attention AWAY from the issue at hand (the protection of the kids) and turn it elsewhere. Conciousness raising is fine and dandy, but what you're about to do is essentially a damage control -- it's a fine line to tread, but you've got to stick to the immediate problem.

This is best illustrated with examples:

Say gay students were getting beaten up at school (happens). Were I to meet with school officials to discuss the issue I wouldn't say "But ma'am, the fact of the matter is that these faggots have done nothing to instigate, etc., etc."

Faggot -- while perfectly acceptable within the gay community -- is not something you would use in a formal situation with outsiders to discuss what amounts to problem resolution. It has been -- and continues to be -- a perjorative term used by outsiders to label the group. Sure, it conjures up images of how we've treated gays, but it diverts attention from the immediate issue and further confuses things.

Replace gay with black and faggot with nigger, it's even worse (though the context and the legacy of the words is admittedly a bit different than the geek parallel -- which is why I think the faggot thing works best.)

You are entirely correct that the use of the term "geek" has gotten a lot of good press for the whole movement. But same for faggot, and moreso for queer. Neither of which would I employ in a situation like the above.

Plus -- god forbid -- someone might *not* know what you're talking about. While undoubtely a number of their reps have read the slashdot postings, chances are that you're going to (if not now, eventually) wind up talking to someone who's "out of the loop" and is old enough to have an image of "geek" that has little to do with the technophiles we know and love. You know, carny alcoholic who's brain has turned to mush and bites the head off a chicken?

I fear a situation like _that_!

Re:I Find it Ironic

[BluFinger]

Damn, I wish I were moderating today so I could moderate this up. I think this really gets to the core of the issue.

We keep pushing each other farther and farther apart. It seems like people don't even really interact with each other anymore or express their feelings. I guess when you're afraid of getting sued, etc. for just about anything anymore it's pretty hard to open up to people.

It must not happen here

[jflynn]

I wish I could provide constructive criticism for Pinkertons. I'm impressed with their willingness to talk and it would be nice to encourage them. Unfortunately this program is beyond saving.

To go beyond the reporting of illegal *behavior* is to validate the notion of thoughtcrime. You don't have to *do* anything to get attention, just be reported as having *said* something. How many of us have not wished someone ill, or fantasized physical harm when furiously angry at them? In a sane person it does not lead to action, passes with time, and helps the angry person deal with their anger. To repress this natural response is extremely dangerous, IMO.

Hopefully we can all agree that one of the very worst things about the USSR during its peak of power was that you couldn't talk to anyone -- friends, lovers, or family, without wondering whether your words would get back to the KGB, with very serious consequences. Inhibiting the expression of criticism and strange ideas does not improve a society, nor make its members more secure, or even increase its productivity. It merely helps preserve the status quo. While other nations grow and make progress.

There are basically two differences in our situation. One is that many of us think that our institutions are well-intentioned and that they won't misuse information gained by secret informants. Optimists. Information is power, and unless controlled by balancing forces power will be used, eventually. Even if you assume that institutions are now and forever will be benign in this country there is still an issue of whether we all share the same goals. For example not everyone thinks stamping out Gothic culture would be a positive, but some more conservative folks might. Who controls what is "acceptable" and what is not? And how?

The second difference is that this program is only being applied to minors. It is in fact a good exercise to think about how you would feel if this program were being used in the workplace instead of schools. Would you really want to add this kind of anonymous informing to an already furious struggle for status? Can you imagine it *not* being abused to eliminate political enemies? The kids in schools who this program is being applied to, without their consent, are the future citizens of this country. They will learn how this country works and what to expect in terms of fair treatment from their expreriences in school. I think it is even *more* important that minors realize they have rights, and responsibilities that come with those rights. If you do not interfere with other people's rights it is supposed to be ok to be different or angry in this country.

Finally this whole concept is ack-basswards. If you want a more peaceful, happier society, we should be eliminating the causes of anti-social behavior and making sure everyone feels included in that society, not designing alarms to detect the onset of violence.

Bogus European Gun Stats.

[Ungrounded Lightning]

I think I have a practical demostration that your point is deeply wrong:

In the rest of the "developed" nations, kids (and the rest of the population) don't have access to guns. All (not some) families are strongly, as you call them, anti-guns. And we don't have problems with them.

In Europe a very small portion of criminals are underage, and usually they are small offenders. Things like high school shooting are nearly unheard of. Except when we watch American news, of course.

I'm afraid that you're the one whose information is "deeply wrong". Part of the problem is that the media has fed you propaganda, and part is that the interpretation of the data is incorrect.

The relevant statistics are related, not to how many people are injured or killed with a gun, but how many people are injured or killed.

And a related issue is how diverse the population is, and how much of their culture is retained.

The United States has a much more diverse population than the states of Europe, which each tend to be primarily one cultural group with smaller admixtures of others.

Here in the US, a person of English descent experiences, and commits, lower rates violent crime and murder than a person of English descent in England. The same is true of a person of Japanese descent vs. such a person in Japan, a person of African descent vs. such a person in Africa, and so on.

A particular problem in Europe is home invasions - when the occupants are home. This is also a problem in Canada. But in most of the US (excluding a few mostly-disarmed cities and states) burglars are very careful to enter only when the home is UNoccupied. The ratio of invasions of occupied vs. unoccupied buildings is very strongly correlated with the local gun ownership percentage and with how the local laws affect the probability that an occupant will be able to defend with a gun.

Invasions of occupied homes are a big issue - because a crook who will do this is willing to injure or kill the occupants. Indeed, they often do this even if the occupants cooperate completely.

Here in the US we don't have "football hooligans".

I could go on.

Don't you think it's a lot safer here, where I can be sure no one, ever, is going to shoot me?

No, I don't. Because you can't be sure of that, and because being shot isn't all it's cracked up to be.

In the US it is estimated that victims or bystanders stop crimes by using a gun well over two milliion times a year - which is many times higher than the number of crimes that are successfully completed by a criminal with a gun.

A victim who fully cooperates with a criminal has about a 1/3 chance of experiencing serious injury or death. A victim who resists in any way (but one), by arguing, running away, fighting bare handed, or with a knife or other weapon has a much higher chance of injury. (Over 50% if resisting with a knife.) The exception is resistance with a gun. This cuts the risk almost in half compared to full cooperation, and is thus the most successful strategy.

As for the criminal's choice of weapons when committing such things as armed robbery: You're much less likely to sustain death or permanent injury, or any injury at all, if the crook uses a gun than if he uses a knife or a club. This is both because you're more likely to go along with him if he threatens with a gun, and because if you are wounded you're more likely to survive, and likely to heal more quickly and completely, from a gunshot wound than from knife or club wounds.

As to not having to worry about the crooks having guns, that's totally bogus. They can easily import them disguised as harmless bales of illegal drugs. (Much of the European undergound is now armed with FULL-automatic AK-47s, military surplus from the former Soviet Union. Over here they tend to stick to semis or revolvers.) Well over a third of guns in criminal hands, both here and there, were stolen from military supplies or police departments (and often sold by the officers themselves).

If these supplies were ever to dry up (and let's see you disarm the police and the armies of Europe!), it's easy to make guns in a garage machine shop. (Indeed, some crooks are now turning out higher quality guns in undergound weapons mills than much of the commercial production available to civilians OR police.)

Finally, Europeans are subject to periodic bouts of tribal warfare, with death rates that make those of all civilian violence disappear into the noise. HOW many million died in World War II? How about the recent bouts of "ethnic clensing" (the politically correct term for genocide)? You're just a shot-dead if it's done in a war as if it's done by a crook.

The last time anything on a similar scale happened over here was about 140 years ago. But it's not for want of trying. Back about WW II we had a problem with the Klan similar to the one Germany had with the Brownshirts. But our people were armed. The Klan lost so badly you hardly hear about it any more.

We don't even have to shut them up. We still have a few dozen Klansmen, and perhaps a half-dozen Nazis, in each of our major cities. Every now and then they get a permit and stage a march. The streets are usually lined with jeering onlookers with picket signs (and who knows how many concealed pistols). Nobody gets hurt. It's all quite entertaining - especially their total frustration.

And you think it's responsible for a parent to teach a kid how to use a gun, and to buy one for an anniversary.

Absolutely.

Because I care about the child's safety, and the safety of the law-abiding citizens. Because I don't distinguish violence committed with a gun from violence committed with other weapons, or brute strength. And because I DO distinguish between violence used in attack and that used in defense, and put the safety of the child and the law-abiding citizen, who have violence thrust upon them, above that of the criminals who chose to initiate violence.

My Personal Advice: Don't go.

[doonesbury]

I'm usually all for going and talking things out. We as people need to learn to communicate with one another.

But not this time.

I draw the line at attempts to point out people who are dangerous "before-hand", even if it could potentially benefit people. I will not tolerate companies who make money off of fear. I do not deal with economic terrorists, and I am *appalled* past any politeness at this kind of "service". I did not appreciate students at my high school making my life hell 10 years ago - but I most assuredly will not tolerate administrations doing so. I don't insist (yet) that schools go out of their way to help or promote any one group of kids. If they want to ignore them, that's fine. But when a school's administration tries to pick out a group and isolate them "for their own good", I will fight tooth, nail, claw & lawsuit against it.

I would advise that Mr. Katz not to go at all. It won't help, period - they're not listening to him for our benefit, but their own benefit, so any help that they get will only make the situation easier to forget. if I could think of a way, I'd use the old artist's trick of "making the ugly, even uglier." Basically, make this service so unpalatable to the common man, that no one could support it. False advice, posters supporting WAVE done in Communist/Nazi agit-prop style, anything to make them seem worse.

Also, this trip could well hurt. Especially if they can swing the PR around so that it seems that geek groups approve of it.

Beware Greeks bearing gifts.

Thunk!

[wowbagger]

(excuse me, I must pick my mandible up off the ground and reattach it).

You mean, Pinkerton is going to talk to somebody about this idea?

Did they contact John, or did John contact them?

They actually read the comments on /.?!!

Excuse me, but I must go outside and see what color the sky is in this strange, new, parallel world I find myself in.

This is a significant moment in /. history...

Re:KISS

[phutureboy]

I heartily agree with you, sig11.

When it comes to high school, I think our school system is a complete failure. It's geared to turning out lookalike, thinkalike production drones for some nonexistant industrial economy that depends on assembly line workers. I think that's what most people really want out of life, anyway.

When I went to high school (grad '88 in Maryland) you got severely disciplined if you had hair or clothes that were too wild looking. I was repeatedly suspended for my flourescent green jeans. Also, if you weren't with the school spirit / football agenda, the administration hated you, and just wanted you out.

If I were a school administrator who really wanted to do something to stop the violence I would:

1) Adopt a ZERO tolerance policy toward harassment or physical force of any kind, regardless of how the person is dressed, the color of their skin, or what kind of hair they have. No more jocks knocking people down. No more punkers getting shoved in lockers. We wouldn't tolerate that sort of environment in the workplace, why should our schools be any different? Don't we all deserve to walk down the hall without getting shoved?

2) Not only tolerate diversity, but encourage it. Wear your clothes and hair however the hell you want. Be yourself - express yourself - respect others and learn from them. Similarly to #1, enforce a zero tolerance policy regarding malicious harassment of others because of differences in looks.

3) Teach non-violent methods of resolving conflict - assertiveness, or whatever. Place as great an emphasis on ethics and getting along with others as on the 3 R's.

I guess all that could only go so far. If I really was in control, I'd ditch the whole idea of government-run schools, and go to a voucher or free-market system. But I'm not in control, and I'm not holding my breath waiting for the rest of America to lose its addiction to big government :(

I've rambled enough now.

Re:Saudi theory does work

[anonymous cowerd]

Yeah, sure, that Saudi theory you find so enchanting works just great. You understand, don't you, that if you had happened to have been born in Saudi Arabia there would be about a one-hundred-to-one chance that you would be in that rights-free class that gets their hands chopped off for trivial offenses, rather than being, as you fantasize, in that lofty class which decides, from far above, who gets chopped.

You might not like life so well in that class. You might dislike it so much that, sooner or later, you might find yourself in the streets doing what the Iranians did, which was to charge His Majesty's guards's machine guns and overrun His Majesty's Palace; whereupon, of course, you would probably just find yourself under a new-and-different yet somehow-the-same dictatorship, next year.

Hell, if you admire Saudi-style totalitarianism so very much, why don't you move on to the next logical step: Khmer Rouge-style justice? By God, if you simply kill everyone just watch that all-important crime rate drop to zero.

"Tell that bold Prussian that praises slaughter, slaughter brings rout."

Yours WDK - WKiernan@concentric.net

Re:Dear Pinkertons:

[technos]

Yes, the anger was misplaced. The well-meaning and obviously openminded people at Pinkerton are not directly to blame. I seriously wish that they will take our suggestions to heart, and hope that one mouthy idiot (myself) doesn't impede that.

Apologies to Pinkertons, and thank you to the pair of /.ers who called me on it.

The obvious solution to all of this...

[supz]

I think we are all overlooking the most obvious solution to all of this...

Imprison all minors!

It may seem a little rash at first, but hear me out on this one. There are lots of reasons for it:
- We are loud and abnoxious
- We listen to the devil's music!
- We are evil and do drugs all the time!
- We drink alcohol and smoke with reckless abandon for our health
- We have sex with everybody and anything (animals, trees, stuffed animals)... all before we are married!
It's not like we couldn't adapt to it... we're already forced to go to schools that are a few bars short of a prison. And civil liberies? Pshh... the way legislation is going now, by the time we get them (graduation) we'll won't know what the big deal was about.

This simple solution could solve all of our problems!

Revamp the project.

[Chilles]

The solution is really simple IMHO.
take on the parents!
give a parent a nice cap or a shirt for every hour spent just playing with his/her kid the way the kid wanted. (this therefore does not count taking your kid to IKEA)
And let people anonimously denounce parents that are suspected of not paying enough attention to their kids (ie two parents with full time jobs)
Throw in a "parent licence" and we've got a well rounded program I'd say.

in the words of scott adams:
"Most induhviduals end up having children. That's a bit like putting a poodle in the cockpit of the spac shuttle and saying, "let's see what happens."

the trick here is separating the parents that say: "He's good with guns and explosives but he doesn't harm anyone" from those that say: "he's good with computers but he doesn't harm anyone."

Make Money Faster!!!

[eshaft]

forget that, don't wait until they piss you off, tun them ALL in for cash! It beats working at McDonald's! And then they can turn you in in return, and pretty soon everyone is rich and in counseling! And isn't that the american dream after all!!! Counseling and profit sharing!!! I love it! I wish I was a kid again.

Profile the system, not the students

[mOdQuArK!]

One of the comments above caught my eye, about the administration being tolerant of physical abuse by students "esp. those involved in athletics".

It occurred to me, that out of all the discussion in the media that I have read about trying to find the "dangerous" students, I have very rarely seen much discussion in the mainstream media about the ENVIRONMENTS which tend to produce such students.

If an environment sucks, the pressure of the people stuck in that environment will build until something(somebody) blows. If you just focus on the current "troublemakers", then you'll never fix the overall problem - the environment - and you'll always end up getting a new crop of troublemakers to deal with.

My thoughts that it might be a little more reliable to try and deduce systemic problems rather than come up with a set of tests which can reliably predict everyone who might become "violent".

Of course, I have read many stories about attempts to solve bad environments, which have failed due to lack of resources. It figures, though - the people with the resources usually aren't the one having problems - and the people with the problems don't usually have the resources to dig their way out of the hole (easily).

Interesting...

[TheCarp]

Interesting coincidence. Today there is talk of
an "anonymous phone in" for students to report
"Depressed or dangerous" classmates, one day
after reading about a supreme court decision that
an anonymous tip is not enough information for
police to conduct a search.

So I have to ask...what would the procedure be
if a "tip" is made? Could this be abused by
students as a way to harass their classmates?
(and don't pretend that no student would ever
do that).

How do we tell a "Dangerous" kid from a
"Nondangerous" one? Interest in explosives and
guns? Hell interests like that are very common.
I used to read about and talk about stuff like
that all the time when I was in school. It was
good fuel for healthy adolecent fantasy.

Same thing for violent games like quake and
doom. It was alot of fun to let loose a little
of that pent up teenage angst in a video game
with no consequences.

I don't see how you can tell that a person is
going to "snap" and actually carry out violent
acts before they actually do it.

I have a feeling that anything like this will
do little more than catch people who were not
going to do anything anyway. If someone goes
around talking about wanting to blow up the school
and kill people, chances are they are not gonna
do it. The ones who are, wont be talking about it.

Seems to me like another case of a company that
wants to use public hysteria fueled by paranoia
to make money off some professional witch hunting.

You come across as being arrogant

[spiralx]

I am a geek. A flaming geek. The kind of geek that inspired both fear from the mentally deficient and awe from the intelligent.

Okay, two points. I truly hope that paragraph was meant to convey irony, because otherwise it comes across as a) the worst kind of arrogance and b) a refernce to the term "flaming queen" - I think you can guess where this comes from :)

'I must have been ill.' Bull. You stick yourself in a room full of mental vegetables and see how long it takes you to become depressed and angry. Try to sit through two years of high school after graduating college. Same feeling.

I am well-adjusted, moral, and probably finished ahead of 90% of you 'WAVE-approved' sheep.

Again, arrogance. I'm sorry, I can appreciate feeling frustrated at being ahead of most of your classmates, but this kind of attitude is, in its own way, just as bad as the attitude that anything different is bad. Just because people aren't as bright/computer literate as you doesn't mean they're "mental vegetables" as you call them. And yes, kids will treat you bad for being different, but in many ways this is part of human instinct and fear rather than in some vast conspiracy to make you feel bad.

And yeah, according to a lot of psych profiles I'd have been a "danger", but I'm not as bitter about it as you. I was bullied, but I managed to a) stop it, and b) get over it. Since then I've managed to get a very active social live which has nothing to do with computers, and I can look back on my school days with a laugh. I've got a job programming, lots of friends and a distinct lack of bitterness. I'm friends with a lot of people who you would label "mental vegetables" - they can't work a computer and they might not be the brightest sparks in the world, but they're nice, good people whose company I enjoy.

Don't let your experiances in the past taint your future.

Re:I have a report

[dingbat_hp]

You don't have to look as far as the Nazis. Look at Pinkerton's murderous history in putting down American trade unionism (particularly in mining).

Lies, damned lies and statistics

[guran]

I doubt you can find *any* reliable statistics about gun rate/crime rate, since every study seems to be made by someone prejudiced one way ro the other.

One thing is just too obvious in your reasoning though: You say that kids who are tought proper gun-handling are less likely to use them. Dont you think that a parent who teaches proper gun-handling also is more likely to teach their kids a thing or two about general responsible behaviour too? Don't you think such parents would raise decent kids in a no-gun society too?

Robbery statistics are also quite irelevant here. You can't gun down your classmates without a gun!

I personally don't want a society where my safety depends on my own shooting skill. You might prefer that, I don't.

Of course You do have a point. A gun can be used to scare the victim, thus making violence unnessesary. You forget, however, what happens when two gun owners confront each other (or when a gun owner gets nervous).

I do not believe in a society based on a terror balance between the good guys and the bad guys. Apparently you do. Let's leave it there insead of quoting biased statistics from either side.

(Oh did I forget to mention that I used to do some sports shooting. It is great fun and I would never vote for a 100% gun ban.)

What is there to fear?

[silvershadow]

I address this one to the Pinkerton Corp.

Imagine, if you will for a moment:

You are a student in high school. You are a teenager going through puberty. Anger and depression are par for the course in this stage of your life, but you deal with them well, and never have harmed anyone. You do well in classes, and participate in a school-sponsored school activity every once in a while. You have few friends, but close ones. You occaisionally have run-ins with the more "popular" or "conservative" cliques in your school, but no more than anyone else outside of those cliques. You pursue your passions with vigor and well, passion. Generally, you're content with your life as it is, and would never be a threat to anyone, despite the fact that you're not terribly social and have a tendency to think/act/believe differently than a lot of your fellow students.

One day, you are hauled into the Guidance Counselor's/Principal's/ 's office. You didn't do anything (that you know of, anyway) and wonder what is going on. This then tells you that you are to undergo psychological counseling or possibly be suspended/expelled. You still have no clue what the &#^@ is going on.

Congratulations. You've just become the victim of the "Worst-case scenario" of the WAVE project. Someone in your school decided that they didn't like you because your hair looked funny one day, and knew also that they could get cash/prizes/etc for "turning you in" as a deviant of some sort.

Now, I know what you're thinking..."yeah, that may be a worst-case scenario, but it's not likely to happen." Think about this, then: how likely is this sort of scenario to happen, as opposed to someone who is actually a threat being reported?

If that doesn't scare you silly, go to your local library, and get a book called "the Crucible". I forgot who wrote it, but if you ask the librarian, they will certainly be able to find it for you. When you have read this book, ask yourself this: how many oddballs will this project burn at the stake, and of those how many should have been burned? Should any have been at all?

Possible Americans With Disabilties Act Violation?

[mindstorm]

What happens when WAVE targets kids with ADD, Asperger's Syndrome, and other behavioral/neurological disorders. I have Asperger's and life was hell for me in K-12 school. Mind you an Aspie at the time with a bad fscking temper from being harassed 24/7. Imagine spazing out because the flourecent lights or someone's perfume are driving you nuts and being hauled to a rubber room with the gestapo to greet you?!

I think WAVE will be stopped short when some mom of an ADD or autism kid gets targeted and as a result Pinkerton gets sued for ADA violations.

Oh, those who have autism or Asperger's, please join me at my Autism forum. Thanks a bunch.




If design is not Bauhaus, it is Baroque.

There but for the grace of God...

[benenglish]

Over and over and over again it has been pointed out that published criteria for identifying potentially violent kids select far, far more folks who are benign but different than folks with a propensity to violence. It's part of the methodology. The errors are built in.

In some cases, such as the Secret Service profiling of potential threats that recently made the news, the identified "potentials" are evaluated by highly trained, experienced personnel who can make, on the whole, reasonable judgements about how to proceed. That's not the case here. No matter how good the Pinkerton guys are (note that I didn't say "goons;" no use resurrecting past bad acts), a program like WAVE will produce so many false positives that they can't all receive the careful attention that would be required to weed out the bad referrals. It just can't happen. People aren't lines of code that can be grep'd out of the whole based on discrete, uncontovertible characteristics that identify violent tendencies.

So here's my question: How on earth do these folks think they can ensure that whoever winds up looking at these referrals does a competent job of making decisions that can, if made badly, have horrible consequences for innocent people? .And by "innocent people," I mean the folks who are wrongly fingered.

As I approach my 40th birthday and look back on my life, I breathe a sigh of relief that we didn't have things like this when I was a kid. Why? Because I know in my heart of hearts that I would have been fingered under such a program, even though I turned out just fine.

It probably wouldn't be too difficult to find a couple of thousand (or a few hundred thousand) other folks who can say the same. What do the Pinkerton folks have to say to people like me? "You were a weird kid and someone should have been spying on you?" To what purpose?

Pardon me while I go off in a blue funk and ponder how to make all this better. I may have no kids of my own, but I owe to every child my dedication to stopping the forces that would spy on them for being sad or smart or inspired or insightful or thoughtful.

Re:Am I the only one...

[tjgrant]

I've gotta come to his defense here. As one of the geeks in high-school (almost 20 years ago now) who is now raising a geek (six years old, far advanced over most the other kids, can install Win98 on his own, and it won't be long before he can do Linux).

I have found Mr. Katz to be the voice that I wished for when I was in high-school, and the voice I hope my son and his peers will hear when they are old enough to really understand some of the social interactions that are going on around them.

Geek kids who are picked on because they are smart and like different things than the mainstream need a strident voice arguing there cause. If there is not one, then my son is doomed to face the same problems that I did.

Stand Fast,

The Onion's take on Geek Profiling

[social]

http://www.theonion.com/onion3532/columbine_jocks. html This is a few months old but The Onion is the only other 'news' or magazine entity besides slashdot that appears to have a problem with Geek Profiling as far as I know.

Re:The Onion's take on Geek Profiling

[Sethb]

I think that the Pinkerton program is going about this all wrong, they're not targeting the truly dangerous group of people in America's high schools. This isn't an anti-jock rant or anything, but I feel that the Columbine killers most likely reacted to the abuse put upon them on a constant basis by the other students in their high school. Just think about it for a moment, most kids don't just decide to up and waste their classmates for no good reason, and I think it's time that educators, parents, and law enforcement stopped treating high school conflicts like playground fights.

I was by no means a jock in high school, but I didn't fit any of these geek stereotypes either. I participated in the Track & Golf teams, as well as Speech, Drama, and Yearbook. I never played a single game of D&D, and we only had Wolf3D, no Doom yet.

When I look back at some of the bastards who made my day hell, I realize that it is terrifyingly easy to understand how anyone could be driven to depression, suicide, or revenge by the purposefully cruel actions of their classmates. I got slammed against lockers, given "titty twisters" in the locker rooms, kicked, hit, and generally verbally abused as well.

I'm not trying to tell my story here, I'm sure most of you experienced things that very similar, and I'm sure many of the "jocks" did as well, especially from upperclassmen in the same sports.

So what do we do about this problem? Blaming the victims will get us nowhere. If you want to create a resource for kids who need help, howabout one where they can go to report the abusive actions of their peers, where school administrators won't tell them to "tough it out" or to "deal with it". I never ONCE felt that any teacher or administrator in my high school would give two craps that Andy Jahnke tried to stuff me in a locker. (He's dead now, head-on car accident, I laughed when I heard that, seriously, maybe there is something to karma.)

My suggestion, Pinkerton, is howabout not rewarding students for turning people in, but providing a resource for students and administrators about what steps to take to stop these abuses. Students should have someone, several someones in fact, at every school who will be their advocates in these cases. There should be a local police liason with the high school, and these cases should result in charges being filed against the abusers.

Too often, I feel that these things are viewed as harmless, when the victims are truly physically and emotionally harmed.

If you leave bruises on a person, it's assault. Period. There should be no suspensions from sports, you're off the team permanently. You do it again, or so-help-me-god retaliate against the person for reporting you, and you're expelled, as well as violating your probation.

There need to be real consequences for those who abuse their fellow students. Not 15 laps, not detention. If I walked into my co-workers office and slugged him in the stomach, would my boss make me work late? No, I'd be charged and sentenced by the legal system, and fired from my job.

Why is this not similar if I'm a senior in high school? Why do those being abused not report the cases of abuse to the police and/or school administrators? Why do we as a society view it as less-severe if the participants in these forms of violence are still in high school?
---

Re:The Onion's take on Geek Profiling

[ronfar]

Actually, that isn't true, The Washington Post ran this story:

Dissecti ng Columbine's Cult of the Athlete

Which is a fairly good analysis of the fact that the administration at Columbine seemed to tolerate and encourage violence among the students. (Especially the ones who were involved in athletics.). It's basically a serious version of the Onion story.

Incidentally, I don't think that the Columbine murderers were geeks, really. I think that a good portion of the media/political establishment decided to label them as such because it serves their agenda. For instance, geeks are always complaining about things like the DMCA and they know more about computers than members of Congress. Not surprising that the government favors the image of geeks as dangerous social outcasts with scores to settle. They did the same thing with hippies after the Manson murders. It seems like the two murderers got some of the same lenient treatment from the school as some of the athletes, if the Washington Post story is to be believed.

For example, in the story referenced above in this post, it is noted that the two Columbine murderers had committed felony burglary before they went on their killing spree, which would seem to be more germain than the fact that they modded levels for Doom. Most people, however, only ever hear about Doom. Also, Columbine isn't the only one of these attacks, how come Jonesborough is never mentioned? Could it be that the details of the Jonesborough incident don't fit a useful profile? In fact, I pretty sure that a careful analysis of Jonesborough wouldn't yield it as a "geeks vs. jocks" situation at all.

Publicity Stunt

[348]

Although I do see much good in the programs base direction, I do feel that is is quite misguided. Many kids will be tagged as "Suspects" mearly because of the "Opeinion" of a peer. This just isn't enough, especially as AC.

To get the program to gain the support it would need to be a usefull tool in proactive efforts to reduce violence in the schools, maybe the first step should be to remove AC from the fold.

Also I admire Pinkerton or any other company putting it's money behind something in the community they feel strongly about. However, Pinkerton really doesn't have the ":Touchy feely, warm hugs" sort of reputation and overall I'm quite leary that this is nothing more that a big publicity stunt.

Re:Publicity Stunt

[348]

Oh I believe that they are sincere in the fact that they want to talk. If their motives are sincerely to help make their program better by honestly listening to the concerns, weighing the facts and moving in a positive direction, hats off to them.

However, if it is just a PR campaign, what better way to stifle the flames than to be able to publicly say we met face to face with folks like Slashdot reps, and want to make sure we do our homework to improve our program.

Either way, they win, the tactic is the same, one is based on honesty and truly wanting to do the right thing, one is based on keeping their name in the trades. I'm sure you will let us know how it falls out.

on the other hand

[altstadt]

In my neck of the woods, we have just seen the end of a trial of a girl who was 15 years old when she beat another girl to death. For background check out this list of newspaper art icles. The most relevant to this discussion is this article.

Highlights of the article referenced in the second link are:

One of her friends, according to court documents, described her as "messed up in her head ... really weird," and that she liked punching people in the face.

Barbara Smith, her school counsellor, described her to the court as "a very angry kid, one who had refused counselling."

Is this someone who would be reported to WAVE? If so, would anything have been done? Should there have been something done?

It sounds like all the right bells were ringing in this case, but we still have one girl dead and another going to prison.

Note that the girl in question here could not possibly have fit the "standard geek profile".

Naw, I wouldn't wish the man harm...

[WhiskeyJack]

Like I said, Katz' heart is in approximately in the right place[1], and (despite the ending of the little story I posted earlier), I really wouldn't wish the man any harm.

--WhiskeyJack

[1] Behind the ribs and a little left, of course. [2]

[2] Sorry, I couldn't resist. [3]

[3] Obligatory recursive footnote. [2]

Re:Term has worked well..

[misuba]

Not everyone who is singled out for being depressed or violent or suicidal or "different" is a geek.

Well, zztzed, at the risk of sounding Clintonesque, it depends what you mean by the word "geek." In my own experience, virtually everyone who uses the word today means something different by it. To most of us here, it means one thing, to Katz it means something slightly different, and to Pinkerton... well, they'd never use the word, but their WAVE criteria express their definition pretty well. And to a lot of American high schoolers, the word "geek" still means nothing other than "depressed or violent or suicidal or 'different'."

Maybe we need a new word. "Geek" is still a hot-enough button for a lot of folks that it ends some important conversations before they start. What phrase can we use that's succinct, and communicates, but doesn't exclude any of the diverse groups to which it needs to refer?

It's a hard problem. You might be thinking that the geek spectrum is too complex to fit inside any one term, and that we simply shouldn't reduce these issues with the goal of increasing the number of people who understand them. But that's the way media works today, like it or not. If we're going to defend ourselves, our rights and our cultures, we need to start thinking seriously and respectfully about the subtle art of public relations.

Re:pinkerdinks

[coolgeek]

I'm 34 now, but when I was in High School, I would likely have been targetted by this type of program. A punk rocker that hung around with the Fantasy Role Playing Games Society. By cutting classes regularly, I had High Score on the attendance system.

I was headed in a bad direction at that time. My computer teacher intervened in perhaps the best way a teacher can. He fostered an environment that nurtured, challenged and stimulated me to grow. See, when I was cutting class, a lot of the time I was in the computer "lab", a section of one of the science classrooms where he taught all day. (At other times, cutting meant smoking dope and knocking back some fo-dee's, but that's another story) The school brass caught on and told him he had to cut it out--not let me stay in the lab during my other classes.

I arrived at the lab one day after school, and he told me to go clean out this room across the hall. It was a "wet" lab that the school had not used in years. I remember feeling as though it was some kind of punishment...besides, I had some important BASIC program I was writing. When I was done cleaning, he then told me to move the entire computer system (a multiuser box w/ terminals) into the other room. I was then able to cut classes and sit in the lab, without the teach being held responsible. He would lock the door when the bell rang (and after I was in there) to maintain his due dilligence.

See, he understood me more than the school brass. He knew the only reason I even came to school any more was to get on the computer, and cutting class doing that was far better than what I might do instead.

My actions eveuntally forced me into a situation where I decided to drop out. Shortly after that, I was offered a job as a programmer working with my best friend's girlfriend's dad. I was able to impress my first boss not just by recognizing his S-100 based computer gear, but also understanding what it meant when he said it was a multiprocessor system. The teach taught me all that too. That was a good while before the IBM PC-AT and NetWare, you gut-dang whipper-snappers! :-)

I sit here all teary-eyed thinking about what that man did for me. I love writing code, and getting paid for it is cool too. I might just as easily be doing time in the pen right now behind some form of grand larceny, had the teach not shown me I could be myself and succeed.

Moving Ahead Carefully

[Prof_Dagoski]

Like, Jon Katz, I too am impressed that Pinkerton has actually taken the time to read the Slashdot comments, but something in this responsiveness bothers me. That being the they're meeting with Katz. In and of itself its not a bad thing; taking the time to have face to face contact with a journalist is a good sign. However, if they believe they are speaking to a representative of the community that their program targets, they are mistaken. Katz does not represent that community even if he strongly advocates for that community. The only thing that represents the community is the community itself. The point being that Pinkerton needs to have hearings open to the public on their program. As /.ers have noted, there are serious concerns about privacy, the incentive structure, the accuracy of the reports and the impact such reporting will have on those singled out as problems. As I commented on the previous story, this reporting program does not have to be a bad thing at all; it can save lives if propoerly administered. If poorly run this program will be nothing more than Mcarthy style witch hunt aimed at a vulnerable and legally defensless culture. I cannot stress that last point enough. This program targets minors! Under the law in most states minors have very few rights and no access to due process. In the case of minors, a simple accusation is often enough to justify all manner of 'corrective' action ranging from school suspension and expulsion to compulsory mental treatment. The consequences of being falsely labeled or mistakenly labeled as a problem youth can be devastating. While parents are supposed to represent their children in such matters, the truth is that parents are often bullied by the system and even when they do stand tall, the find that there is not much they can do.

Another problem I have is with Katz himself. I'll just chalk this up to my paranoid and anti authoritarian nature. It seems that Katz is taking on the mantle of sage or religous leader for the oppressed geeks of the US. I'm just a bit worried that the meeting of minds here is nothing more than a clueless, disconnected corporation meeting with a demagogue who claims to represent the community impacted by WAVE. I would encourage people to speak up to Pinkerton as individuals rather than let Katz speak for us. He probably is fighting the good fight and all, but lets keep him honest.

To Sum up:

[relay_switch]

OK, Jon (and fellow /.ers). I've been reading these comments, and it looks like this is the hottest thing to hit /. since sliced bread. Lemme try to see if I can wrap our brains around what we're saying:

1) What are the procedures for verifying that the 'anonymous' tip line is not abused by jocks/other people afraid/who hate the "outsiders" groups on campus?
a) How can it be anonymous if prizes are in the offering? Do they set up random street corner liasons with the students, like a daylight drug deal?

2) What is going to be done with the data that is collected? Will it be stored offline in Pinkerton's HQ, will it be a searchable database accessable via the Web? Does it have an expiration date? Or will this data find it's way onto our Permanent Records?

3) What kind of safguards will be in place to ensure that students who have been reported by their peers will not be treated as further outcasts? Will WAVE conduct interviews about the individual, will the individual be called into a conference with the dean, the councilor, the parent(s), the chief of police and the local jail warden?


And personally, I want to know if WAVE/Pinkerton will have any kind of community oversight program, to make sure that some faceless commitee in another region doesn't make decisions that affect a locality with no input from that locality...

As a kid who DID suffer through two high school incidents involving guns (a girl in one of my high schools committed suicide in a school bathroom with a .38 revolver, and as a senior, one of my friends opened fire with a shotgun in a crowded lunchroom. No one was hurt), I'm personally glad to see that SOMEONE is trying to come up with a program to addesss the issues of violence in our schools. But as a guy who used to wear black lipstick and eyeliner to school along with my slacks and loafers, I cringe at the thought of people like the ones I found out were going to kill me being able to say that I was the dangerous one... and get ME into trouble, when they were the ones who planned to leave my violated corpse on the front lawn of the school because I was OBVIOUSLY a 'fag'...
Good luck, Godspeed... And if Jon doesn't come back, well... we know what happened to him...
switch

I have a question...

[roderick]

My nephew is a young man in his 2nd year of junior high here in North Carolina (I only graduated from high school 8 years ago, though -- big difference in ages between his mother and myself). He's smart, slightly hyperactive, writes, loves computers, has remarkably mature tastes in film and reading materials, and is (from what I can tell) sadly fast on his way to being an outcast, because his brain is simply so much more active than those of the adults around him, myself included. He gets in trouble at school and has difficulties maintaining friendships sometimes because he doesn't settle down and accept the rules applied to his behavior, whether they make sense or not. When WAVE America is unrolled, my nephew -will- be identified by it; of this I am 99% certain.

My question is this: when he is (again, not if) identified as dangerous, what resources will the Pinkertons make available to me, a trusted relative to whom he might turn for advice or insight, to aid me in assuring him he's not a freak, and that these people honestly did mean well? How do I explain that someone might have abused this system to be hurtful towards him? How do I explain that when someone is different, they are generally punished for it in our society? How do I reassure him beyond pointing at myself and saying, 'Well, I was a weirdo, too, and -I- survived, didn't I?' when the fact is, when I was in junior high, the worst things the other kids could do had already been explored, and adults hadn't invented bigger, worse and more officially sanctioned methods of harming one another?

In short, I need to know, from the Pinkertons, what safety nets they'll put in place for the false/malicious reporting on kids that aren't actually dangerous, but still match the profile of being unusual?

And how willing are they to admit that this sort of malicious reporting by vengeful fellow students will happen?

Here's a good question:

[john_many_jars]

Suppose profiling worked well (better than 90% of the time) and WAVE could correctly identify all troublemakers ahead of time and given the teenage mindset of invincibility and given the fact that schools can't distribute aspirin to students (let alone psycho-therapy) and given the high recidivism rate of current public policies geared at reforming people, what real solution can a public school exact to prevent said troublemakers from wreaking havoc? Or is Gov. Jim Hunt wasting my (I pay NC taxes) money on a program to further segregate and demean already flammable youth?

Ask the Pinkertons this.....

[ReTay]

As a former Pinkerton Officer and Field Supervisor I would ask Pinkerton the following.... My concerns for Pinkerton to consider are. 1. The policy of anonymous tips gives you no control over the quality of the information you are receiving. You have surely seen many references to how this could be easily abused. 2. Attempting to use anonymous information is legally shaky at best. In court it would be tossed out in a second. 3. Pinkerton will be accepting enormous liability here. If for example a child is singled out by this system and refuses to cooperate what does Pinkerton feel it can do? As a parent I can assure you that if my child's schooling were interrupted by this system for information via PARS or whatever, based on anonymous information the school district and the local Pinkerton district would be in court for a very long and very expensive time. Has Pinkerton considered this? As someone who knows the local Pinkerton district very well and a geek I feel I am in a very good position to advise you to reconsider this plan. I have seen Pinkerton decline contracts that called for guards to be placed directly in harms way with no means to protect themselves. This too has applied to legal hazards. For example retail loss prevention. To many legal hassles for my local district so they just left it out of the picture. 4. Offering ANY type of reward for information anonymous or otherwise can bring up questions of conflict of interest. 5. There is no effective way for Pinkerton to mitigate it's legal liability in this issue. As a for profit company how in the litigious times we live in could Pinkerton hope for this effort however well intentioned to break even let alone show profit in ten years when court costs are factored in?

Finally...

[z3penguin]

Finally, someone out there is actually paying attention to the minors out there. Being a minor, I know how it feels. -Z3Penguin P.S First post

A Sample Situation

[JPhule]

Lets Look at my situation from a few years ago:

I dressed different.

I listened to different music.

I worked with computers

I played quake

and worst of all...

My Dad was Cop! Cop = guns.

Hell, we had guns and ammo just lying around the house. Sure most of it was locked up, but I still had easy access to it. ( My father taught me to respect guns as tools, not weapons. )

So if this program was in my High school, the jocks who kicked my ass on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday because they liked to, and the Cop Haters who kicked my ass on Tuesday and Thursday, could have all just turned me in as a threat if I said I was going to rat on them? Worst of all, they would have gotten brand new Junior Spies... uh, I mean... WAVE America BallCaps, for kicking the ass of a thought criminal... I mean... disturbed kid.

SOUNDS GREAT!!! See, my parents never worried about me lashing out, because they taught me that violence solves nothing. More importantly, they cared enough to talk to me if I had a problem.

Children's Rights?

[sensate_mass]

The reason that minors in this country have limited constitutional rights is that they are deemed incapable of looking out for their own best interests. It is assumed that parents, guardians, or other parties *interested in the ultimate welfare of the child* will use their increased powers over the children for the latter's ultimate benefit. School officials, although not directly interested in children's welfare, are bound by a tight web of legal constraints that is meant to prevent them from doing too much harm. What constraints are to be put on the Pinkerton psychological reviewers? What guidelines? What would be put in place to moderate their profit motive? I know *I* would be caught dead wearing one of those caps. What are they thinking?

As a teacher, WAVES is wrong...

[finola]

I am a teacher to over 300 Gifted and Talented students between the ages of 9-12.The majority of my students could be described as "odd" and "unusual". They are very creative people who do not fit into the mainstream, even at their very young age. I can see what they would be like in Junior High and High School. Wait...that was me!!! I was an artistic NERD. And I graduated from college as Valedictorian with a GPA of 4.0 while being a varsity athlete. (Okay, it was fencing, that's considered weird by the NCAA) Now I'm a dedicated teacher who has great success in the classroom and as a leader for my peers in education reform even though I'm much younger than they are. I am afraid for my students, who like me, did not fit in when young, but will most likely end up at the top of their professions. Has Bill Gates really done much worse than push the limits of the American Dream? He hasn't gone a shooting rampage. The Geeks shall inherit the earth.

Question for Pinkerton:

[Anonymous Coward]

What happens in the case where your anti-social (but not criminal) behavior is the result of criminal behavior towards you? Once you are reported and this is discovered, will Pinkerton assist in the prosecution of the original offender? What responsibility is Pinkerton willing to assume with the knowledge that they acquire?

Background: In junior high when I was 13, I was shy, awkward, and smart, like many /. readers. And, like many /. readers, I am now happy, wealthy, and have an interesting job and life. Unlike many /. readers, I am female. To make a long story short enough for a /. post, I was repeatedly sexually assaulted in Jr. High by one jock in particular, who was cheered on by others.

This led to a period of anti-social behavior on my part, which was reported. I was dragged into the principal's office. My parents (who were already frantic with worry) were called. I did not tell anybody what had happened, in the end, until years later. I was horribly embarrassed and ashamed, and really, what good would it have done? The behavior started in a church confirmation group and was not just observed but encouraged by the church "counselors" (who were slightly older teenagers anointed "counselor" by the church). The adults saw what was going on as well, but the precipitator was popular, and well, anybody that popular couldn't be a sex offender.

Now, let's review some of the Pinkerton warning signs:

-- Expresses uncontrolled anger: Well, yes. Sexual assault will do that to you.

-- Displays intense intolerance or prejudice: Why, yes. In fact, I did display intense intolerence towards jocks. Funny, their intense intolerence of me was never questioned, but my return anger got me called into the principal's office.

-- Has excessive feelings of isolation and/or rejection: Funny, that's another side effect of sexual assault.

-- Uses drugs or alcohol on campus: Yes, it was a useful way of getting through the day.

-- Suddenly has bad grades or little interest in school: Well, yes. Imagine, I couldn't concentrate on my studies.

-- Is easily angered by minor things: Certainly. Since I knew that there was no chance that my assaulter would ever be punished, I had little outlet for my anger.

Now to address a few posts I saw defending the Pinkerton program:

1) Yeah, but at least you're still alive, and if you'd brought a gun to school and killed the assaulter, he'd be dead.

Well, yes. That is in fact true, as laughable as the concept is to anybody who knows me. But guess what? He could have brought a gun to school and killed me (he certainly threatened to kill me if I told anyone). I am willing to bet a large sum of money that he would never have been profiled by Pinkerton, or, if he had, it would have been laughed off by the school authorities. So how on earth would Pinkerton have helped this situation?

2) Your anti-social behavior must be your parents' fault for not monitoring you closely enough. After all, any parent that is involved with their kids will know what is wrong and take steps to deal with the problem. The Pinkerton program is only going to report those kids whose parents aren't involved with them.

Bullshit. I am and was very close to my parents, and to this day they do not know about this episode. They knew something was wrong, but I couldn't talk about it for years. My mother was a stay-at-home mom (which seems to impress the folks who argue this point), and my father actively supported my forays into math and science. In fact, one can arguably say that it is only because of their support that I survived HS at all and didn't commit suicide. Even with supporting and loving parents, I was called in. What would Pinkerton have helped in this situation?

Finally, to my original question. I submit that I would have been reported to the Pinkerton program (after all, I was ratted out as "anti-social" in my school by somebody). But should I have reported the assault, would Pinkerton have assisted in the prosecution of the assaulter? Would they have testified on my behalf, or would they have been called in to testify on the behalf of the well-adjusted athlete? Somehow, I suspect the latter.

Anonymous for obvious reasons.

I'm unstable. And WAVE pisses me off.

[BOredAtWork]

Jon,

While I'm usually one of your most vocal critics when I bother to read your babbling, I'm finding myself in the rather unusual position of agreeing with you on something... it's probably some sign of the apocolypse, but hey, that's life... Anyways, here's my thoughts (some of them, and quite disorganized) on the steaming pile of bullshit that is WAVE America...

First, the underlying philosophy here has more holes than a donut shop. Think about this, folks. The group that they're attempting to monitor is expected to police ITSELF. This doesn't work in any other facet of society. I can't think of a single instance where a group is trusted to police its own ranks. This is a bad idea from the word GO, no matter what the group.

Next, one must remember that this isn't just ANY group: we're dealing with CHILDREN. How on EARTH does any rational person expect a CHILD to recognize a psychological disorder? Children can't diagnose THEMSELVES, let alone others. A child can't distinguish between Bobby Joe being constipated, and Bobby Joe suffering from emotional turmoil. Hell, most PARENTS can't tell either! You're asking a group of kids to do the job of trained counselors. Not a good idea at all...

Another point to keep in mind is that the students WAVE seeks to single out are those who are different or strange. They can't pinpoint "potential troublemakers", so the next best thing is "those who fit the description of a troublemaker". While this is a great theory, in practice it's total bullshit. As many researchers, counselors, doctors and former "troublemakers" (myself included) will attest, the root of a child's problems is usually isolation and lack of social acceptance. While this program certainly will identify the socially isolated, this will only compound the problem. When I was in school, kids could point and say "he's strange!" With WAVE, kids can force ADULTS to say the same thing. If social isolation is the root of the problem, anything that INCREASES social isolation - such as singling out Joey as "that kid who goes to 'special' sessions three days a week" or "that kid who has to talk to the head doctor" - is bad. Think about it; when you were in middle school, wasn't there someone who had some "different" memorable trait or problem that went away during high school, yet was best remembered by it? Putting a 13 year old into counseling, removing him from his classmates, or making him look anymore "strange" in their eyes will just cement that label onto him.

Now, the BIG point, the REALLY important one, is that WAVE assumes that different==bad. Kids understand what they know... if someone is "different", kids think that's bad. WAVE reinforces this idea. "Call us, and report any suspicious classmates!" To a child, that reads "Call us, and we'll take that weirdo away!" Once they see that this WORKS, that they can get three of their friends to call too and magically Smelly Stan will be in "special" classes, they'll keep calling and calling and calling until they report everyone that's "different". What kids need to learn is that DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL BAD. If anything can be learned from these school shootings, it's that isolation and intolerance of "different" is a bad thing. We should be teaching our kids to recognize differences as a GOOD THING.

Instead of teaching them this, WAVE teaches them to report the "different" kids so they can "be fixed". THIS IS BULLSHIT. Absolute, total and complete bullshit. I look back on myself in high school, and see myself now, and thank God that WAVE was not in place. I'd have been raising every red flag in the system, and singled out for it. Right now, I'm finishing my Junior year of college, and having the time of my life. College is different. Here, people see something about me that's different, and say "dude, that's cool!" Or "man... I wish I could do that!" In high school, it was "dude, that's fucking gay!" Or "man... that's so fucking odd!" Right now, I've got a gorgeous girlfriend, a great job lined up after graduation, decent grades, loads of friends, and the respect of those around me. I couldn't think of anything else to ask for. In high school, I was "different", and persecuted because of it. A program like WAVE would have singled me out, embarassed the hell out of me, and made my life even more miserable. Basically, WAVE really strikes a chord with me. I'm "unstable" by their definitions, and being told that this is a bad thing really, really pisses me off.

In review, WAVE operates on philosophies that can be picked apart and revealed to be nothing more than a fresh steaming pile of shit.

• Children and police their own ranks without bias
• Children can recognize social disorder, mental illness and dangerous individuals based on their being different
• Difference from the norm is a Bad Thing in a child
• We should strive to remove the Differences
• Singling out Different children and thereby causing them further isolation from their peers will not hurt them

Quite simply, recognizing and helping troubled children is the job of a trained professional. WAVE puts these responsibilities on CHILDREN.

Katz, I think you're a poor writer who's here on slashdot because he had the sense to jump on a growing gravy train, but I think you're also now in the position to make a real difference in the world, and do something useful for a change. I really hope you do a kick ass job when you talk to these people. Please, on behalf of everyone who WAVE might eventually effect, don't use this opportunity to hype your books, or terms (geek profiling), or political ideas. Please, please, please, keep your conversation along the REAL subject, and convince WAVE to take a long hard look at their underlying philosophies...

--

Re:Term has worked well..

[zztzed]

The problem I have with the term "geek profiling" is its inaccuracy. Not everyone who is singled out for being depressed or violent or suicidal or "different" is a geek. I can think of a few people I know who might be singled out on a couple of those criteria who are most decidedly not geeks. While many (real) "geeks" may meet WAVE's criteria for being "dangerous", that does not mean that everyone who does is a geek.

--

Re:I Find it Ironic

[jd]

If I had 100 moderator points (and Slashdot didn't limit the score to 5! :), it would still not be enough. Chromatic's post is one of the best, deepest description of depression, victimisation, etc, I have read.

A lot of people turn to violence, not through sadism or malice, but because after a while, it's simply the only way they'll ever be heard or seen. Living your life as the Invisible Victim wears thin after a while.

Of the people most likely to be "caught" in this program, you're most likely to find depressives, manic depressives, survivors of domestic and/or social and/or school abuse (including emotional neglect), physically and/or mentally handicapped people, people with ADHD and/or OCD, the lesser-spotted Asperger Syndrome suferers, etc.

Then, of course, in areas with abnormally-high numbers of people with the above, it'll be "normal" people (whoever THEY are!) who will be the "outsiders".

I =HOPE= Jon Katz doesn't go there and sound like he sometimes does in his Slashdot articles. (Mind you, if he did, we wouldn't have to worry about any more articles by him! :)

This is an important issue, and I hope it gets treated with the respect and importance it deserves. It sounds like it, but "sounds" and "is" are two very different words.

ObIrreleventTrivia:

There's a sign in Devon, England, which reads: "Pick your own Strawberries, Raspberries, Cream Teas". Genetic Engineering in England has certainly gone a long way!

Speaking as a parent...

[Frank Sullivan]

I have very grave concerns about Pinkerton's approach to this problem. Even if we assume that actively attempting to identify potentially violent children is a good thing, it should be left to trained professionals with ethical responsibilities. Peers are neither technically skilled enough to identify danger signs, nor do they have any ethical responsibility to avoid false reporting. Not only will the WAVE system not effectively identify problem students, i can assure you it will generate so much spurious and false data due to erroneous or deliberately misleading reports that it will be worse than useless.

And if such a system becomes widely used, i fear for my child. He is extremely intelligent, but a social loner. He likes computers, and tends to say exactly what he thinks. This doesn't make him any sort of a danger to society, but it does make him a target for WAVE, not to mention a target for bullies. When i was a child, i behaved much as he did. And had access to guns, too (he does not). Did i shoot up my school? Nope. I went on to become a happy, successful and moderately well-adjusted member of society. I'm sure my son will too.

Unless the do-gooders decide to take their advice from the bullies and lock him up.
__
(oO)
/||\

I just question how this could work properly

[NMerriam]

I would question how these "diagnoses" will take place, as other have already. Pinkerton claims that they will clarify what symptoms should be reportable by using the same symptoms the professional psychiatric community uses, but that doesn't add much (if any) reliability to the analysis.

The psychiatric community itself accepts that virtually every symptom of anxiety disorders, depression (the leading cause of death for many demographic segments), and mania are merely extremes of commonly occuring issues. The constant debates over symptoms and dignoses cause the DSM to fit, essentially, the moral views of the publishing date. No reputable psychiatrist would disagree that the DSM is as much consenus as it is fact (the difference being that diagnosis & treatment by "consensus" is invariably tainted by moral and political mores).

A clinically depressed person will be diagnosed differently by any number of professional, experienced phsychiatrists & psychologists, and the practice of allowing school counselors to participate in this (or even worse, completely untrained principals) has only made the issue of improper diagnosis more apparent and dangerous. To allow anonymous students to "diagnose" and turn in their fellows is to invite both paranoia and life-devastating errors, especially in the cases of children who are not "normal" (ie, average) but also not dysfunctional.

I find it ironic (although I'm sure the irony is lost on those such as Pinkerton who stand to make a profit) that the same day we're discussing the possibility of turning in aberrant children "for their own safety", the front page article on CNN's web site discussed the alarmingly high rates at which children are being prescribed mood-altering (in fact, brain-chemistry altering) drugs.

The very concept that pre-school children are being prescribed Prozac and Zoloft in hopes to fix their aberrant behavior is shocking and literally nauseating. (Your son eats paste? My god, he's liable to kill someone!)

Even more fundamentally, activities such as this seem to be nothing short of an assault on our own children. We consider them to be caged animals, praying that with the proper psychopharmocology and big brother tactics we will be able to intervene before the inevitable killing spree begins.

In what other society, indeed, in what other history, have citizens been so clearly (and mistakenly) terrified by the concept that their children might exhibit the symptoms of free will? That they might decide sneaking out at night is fun?

Why must we encourage our children to "turn in their neighbors", when similar tactics have consistently and immediately been rejected throughout America in regard to adults? There have been several communities (heavily traffiked by drug users/dealers) where police have encouraged citizens to report any "unusual" behaviour, people or vehicles -- and these measures have always been soundly criticized as disturbing and paranoic, encouraging the use of anonymous tips as retribution between private citizens. This WAVE effort is no different, it just has better t-shirts and a company willing to make money off the abridgement of human trust.

The simple fact of the matter is that there isn't a shred of statistical or empirical evidence that indicates there is even a chance of this working.

The simple fact of the matter is that people (whether old or young) who commit the most shocking and heinous crimes (such as mass-murder, serial killings, etc) are impossible to predict or prevent. The most visably disturbed children and adults are rarely (if ever) capable of these kinds of activities, because they require the kind of intelligence and thoughtful planning that are (coincidentlayy enough!) exactly the skills you need to appear "normal".

While psychiatrists can diagnose ted bundy (or any of the recent teen killers) after the fact, the criminals would all be capable of (and in fact, did) convincing several clinicians of their sanity and harmlessness.

Ultimately, that's why I can't understand the goals of this program (given the stated intentions). If the goal is to stop "casual" crimes (like drug use, assault of fellow students, abuse or other extracurricular trauma), then the faculty (indeed, any capable observer) would be able to spot the symptoms. There is no need for a guerrilla force of students to root out such problems, as they are not frequently (and even less capably) hidden. They are universally ignored by those capable of helping (meaning teachers, police, and other adults). Fight the barrier of apathy among adults, not the "secrecy" of teens.

If the goal is to stop killings such as in Littleton, then I wish you good luck. People capable of such violence and mahem are wholly capable of evading amateur detectives and trained psychologists alike.

White male, upper middle class, highly intelligent, psychological issues from youth. It describes most every serial killer, mass-murderer, and successful businessman in this country. So where do we start the lineup?...

Re:Prime Target? [Re: Oh boy...]

[Teferi]

You hit the proverbial nail right on the proverbial head with this one. I'm a freshman at a private school (parent's choice, not mine) in NJ, a geek, and know _exactly_ what you're talking about. I mean, it's not blatant hatred that I experience most; nor is it overflowing liking.

99.44% of the time, it's just plain indifference. Because I don't like the same (crappy) music as everyone else, or enjoy the pointless sports that they do, or drool over the same celebrities, or wear the same clothes (only on weekends - stupid dress code; tie, shirt, etc), I don't fit into their world view.

And they respond by simply cutting me out of their world.

I've gone entire days without anyone speaking to me, or noticing my existence, except in class or if I literally bump into someone. Almost everywhere I go, I hear muted giggles and see people pointing (semi-discreetly) at me. And that doesn't even include the one or two _real_ assholes - the people who do things like breaking open the pathetic lock on my locker, pulling random papers out, and tearing them to shreds.

Having no one to talk to, and no one to talk to me is the most depressing thing I've ever had happen to me - excepting some rather...unpleasant incidents in elementary school I'd really rather not mention.

I can tell that even the people who _do_ occasionally pity me and talk to me a bit are a little afraid of me - and yet these are the same people (mostly girls) who not only put up with, but encourage their significant others to treat them like dirt. I could go on for pages on the psychodynamics here, I suppose, but I'd rather not spill into a 'Read the rest of this comment...'. :P

Why is it that people simply find difference so hard to accept? And why is it that such draconian measures such as WAVE are deemed necessary?

For the sake of myself, of the fellow geek whose post I responded to, and all the other underattended, ignored, abused geeks, I hope that this becomes nipped in the bud; I can just visualize the aforementioned assholes making up some story, 'ratting me out' - and showing up the next day at school, grinning wildly and waving reward checks at me as the security guards drag me into a van.

I apologize for the rambling nature of this post, and so I'll conclude succintly: we must not let this happen.

Thank you.
"If ignorance is bliss, may I never be happy.

Re:I Find it Ironic

[ConceptJunkie]

Well said.

With respect to the Boomers:

There's the positive side of peace, love and understanding, but there was also a lot of really strong bad influences on the Boomer generation too.

Let's not forget that the communist/socialist influence of college faculties and other academics was at least as powerful as it is today. The government was moving toward socialist policies in the 60's (the Great Society, et al). Revolutionaries in the Third World were being idolized by American adolescents, most of whom had know idea who they were really admiring, and a lot of people were buying the Communist propoganda.

We had MLK marching for civil rights (who coincidently was a communist sympathizer, although he had much to admire), but we also had Hanoi Jane sitting on VC anti-aircraft guns cheering the destruction of U.S. forces.

The fact of the matter is, that the Boomer majority is starting to act like a lot of the folks they were enamored with in the 60's, and many of the things they are pushing have a lot in common with the governments of Soviet Russia, China and Nazi Germany.

Taking away guns, dumbing down education, extorting powerful industries (like tobacco), micromanagement of peoples lives through excessively complex regulation and encouraging people to rat out their friends to the Party or Thought Police or whatever you call it, were and are all tactics of totalitarian regimes the world over, and are all being pushed heavily in the U.S.

I don't think we are about to become the Britannia of George Orwell's 1984, but so many of his concepts have come to pass in the U.S. and elsewhere that it worries me. We have to remember that the good intentions of the Boomer generation are sometimes subverted by the people that influenced them in their formative years.

I think Pinkerton needs to consider the example they are setting and keep the interests of the millions of disenfranchised outcasts in proportions with the interests of a very small number of potential victims.

Re:My biggest fear about WAVE: a tool for bullying

[remande]

they'd seem to be the ingredients for a positive-feedback abuse loop.

That's a scary phrase: positive-feedback abuse loop. At least for those of us schooled in feedback theory, that sums up a very large chunk of the problem. Frankly, I think that this term itself can change the minds of some people in the psychology/stop-the-shootings biz.

When somebody is trapped in such a loop, the abuse increases until something snaps in that person. Some will jump out windows, others will start on drug binges, yet others will get an AK-47 and literally go postal. I don't think you can tell which ones will snap which way; the solution is to stop the snapping. And a positive-feedback abuse loop is almost guaranteed to do so.

There are some people out there that just want to make money on the "going postal" problem (remember, it's not just kids). For those who are really into solving the problem, avoiding these positive-feedback abuse loops solves part of the problem and saves lives.

DDoS W.A.V.E...

[infodragon]

You bring up a valid point. The system can be abused.

Because the System can be abused why not abuse it in a constructive manner...

The system is going to be anonymous. This is the only way it will work, i.e. a wimp needs to turn in a bully because he likes to torture cats. If it is not anonymous the wimp will not turn in the bully for fear of getting the CRAP beaten out of him by the bully and his friends.

Because of this anonymous nature ANYBODY can use it, not just students.

If this system is implemented just turn in every student in a particular school. Why not get all the parents involved. Make convincing accusations and "way out there" accusations. The system will crumble in an instant, the equivalent of a DDoS attack. How would they be able to go over all the reports? How could they act on all of them, every student?

If this system is implemented I would be very tempted to organize and execute a DDoS of the W.A.V.E

Nononono. *THIS* is a rant...

[goliard]

We didn't need people to talk to, or counsellors, or any of that. We just needed something to escape from the sometimes harsh reality. Computer programming, robotics, astronomy, electronics,just a hobby, any hobby. We'd come home after a hard day at middle school (or head over to Radio Shack in the case of Mitnick :), and get involved in something we were really interested in. It would be our salvation, and it would recharge our batteries for the next day.

You have confused escapism with escape. Escapism is something which distracts you from your misery. Escape is something which removes you from your source of misery.

Escapism is a band-aid. Escape is a solution.

Why should anyone who is being tormented, abused, oppressed be expected to treat the very natural and reasonable symptoms of their distress as an inconvenience, a disorder to be cured?

Would you tell someone to drink alcohol to ease the pain? Would you tell them to self-medicate with illegal pharmaceuticals? It is fundamentally the same thing.

What young geeks need is not escapism, but escape: escape from the schools which imprison them, which imprison their minds.

THERE IS NO REASON A YOUNG PERSON SHOULD BE SUBJECTED TO AN ABUSIVE SITUATION. WHY SHOULD A YOUNG PERSON BE REQUIRED TO ATTEND A SCHOOL IN WHICH THEY ARE BEING THREATENED, BEATEN, HARASSED?

Until young geeks and outcasts have more and better options for LEAVING ABUSIVE SITUATIONS the problem will continue.

By "leaving" I mean "not being in schools they don't want to any more". This is a matter of law, of custom and of economics. Until it is possible for someone to leave school with impunity and pursue non-institutional choices, there is a sword hanging over their head. Until a geek being abused doesn't have to choose "Gee, should I drop out of school and flip burgers for the rest of my life, or should I risk getting my head bashed against a toilet at school today?" he is still a prisoner of the system.
----------------------------------------------

Silencing Dissidents

[goliard]

My question: How does the Pinkerton Corp. propose to prevent or at least discourage the use (or threat of use) of its product to silence dissidents in schools?

Quite frankly, most of the "weirdos" are in fact dissidents -- critics of the school system, of the culture of school, or particular teachers' conduct, etc.

Since this product has the potential to wreak havok in someone's life, it almost certainly will be used by teachers and/or peers to threaten or reprise against critics of the status quo.

It will be used against the publishers of underground paper and websites. It will be used against students who refuse to wear fashionable clothing. It will be used against students who do not elect to participate in certain activities, or who participate in the wrong activities.

It will be used against gay and lesbian students. It will be used against pagan, muslim and atheist students. It will be used against students who wear black armbands to school to protest wars or other causes. It will be used against students who refuse to fight, or join gangs, or do drugs.

Do you understand what it is that you are unleashing? Can you put down what you are calling up?

And how will you sleep at night?
----------------------------------------------

Nazi Youth?

[CrayDrygu]

Forgive me if this has been posted already, I don't have the time to sort through over 600 posts.

My question for Pinkerton is this: If you've read all the previous comments like you said, you must have seen the innumerable people relating your program to Hitler's Nazi Youth, and to the movie that shares the name of your program.

Do you see the relations here? If not, why? And what is your response to these comments?

Accountability

[ThunderBucket]

If the system is anonymous, then it seems that anyone could malign a minor with impunity, with almost certianty as to their safety in doing so. What mechanisms would be in place to ensure that the system does not turn into a way to earn money via libel?
(If it were to have some kind of report tracking, how would that change its effectiveness? Fewer call-ins due to bona fide retribution fears?) It seems that a monetary incentive to anonymously harm someone is begging to be abused.

Questions for the Pinkerton Corp.

[raibeart]

How can they garuntee that this 800 number will not turn into a "I don't like that person, I'll just turn em in as depressed."

Re:I have a report

[themurray]

Unfortunely, American have a right to be assholes and idiots. Freedom is more important, then safety. This Wave Program seems to be a page out of the play book of the Nazi's. The Hitler Youth had a very similar program and it had extreme chance for abuse and help foster a police state. The slow attack of the socialists, globalists and communists in this country at the freedoms and liberty is a danger to american life and long-term stability. It is a shame at the power we have allowed our government to take from the states and the people.

Make Money Fast

[DuctTape]

...turn in your buddies for Kwik Kash!!! Sounds like it would make for a good revenge tactic, too. Someone pisses you off, turn 'em in for being dangerous, and get paid to boot.

I love this country!

DT

Am I the only one...

[WhiskeyJack]

Am I the only one who read this and wished we could pick some other ambassador than Mr. Katz? No offense -- afterall, the man's intentions are good and more or less in the right place -- but I usually find Mr. Katz a little too...strident, I guess, to picture him doing any real good in this meeting, and he often fails to grasp the realities of the situation he's discussing which could lead to misunderstandings which might in turn work against dismantling this abominable WAVE absurdity.

--WhiskeyJack

Re:Am I the only one...

[Hotaine]

Shhhhh! He only THINKS he's going there for a meeting. I actually called and turned him in. Got this nifty baseball cap...

Prime Target? [Re: Oh boy...]

[khog]

spankenstein wrote: In high school i would have been a prime target for this. I was a depressed, insomniac, geek/musician that had multi-colored hair in multiple spiky arrangements and a skateboard and a really bad attitude about life. I never went over the edge. But being persecuted like this could have easily pushed the wrong buttons. --

My name is Mike Greenberg, and I'm 15. I go to Bloomington High School North (BHSN) in Bloomington, Indiana, and am a freshman. I'll try not to ramble. :)

I am a geek -- I won't deny this. Ever since I was a little kid in kindergarten I was singled out as the 'smart' one. I was in my elementary school's 'gifted' program, and took advanced classes at my middle school. At BHSN I take all advanced classes. With no gratuitous arrogance, I am more advanced than the classes that I partake in, as the level is rather low.

Ever since fourth grade (my elementary school's gifted program didn't begin until fourth grade) I was ostracized from the 'other' kids and, in accordance with the will of the school administration, isolated from the other students, as well.

When I went to middle school, I was a 'punk.' While lacking in the dyed-hair department, I wore the 'attire' (pretty much anything that wasn't pop-culture at the time). I still am 'punk,' merely in the sense that my hair is pink and that I don't wear pop-culture clothes. For this, I am singled out.

Now, my school is pretty cohesive. We don't get a lot of fights after school, we haven't had a suicide shooting. That bond between the students is not universal, though. I am mocked, jeered, and despised by some. In my art class, I am mocked because I argue with the teacher about transcendentalism, for instance. I am not well-liked, and we'll leave it at that.

I am, as some might say, depressed. I'd really rather not go into it (especially not in a forum like this) but, as it is easy to guess, it involves girls...and drugs...and guys. Regardless of the semantics, I am depressed. I am upset at a variety of things, and look so -- I am often times not my perky, question-answering self, and this is clear to all of those around me.

Do I pose a danger? Should I be called into WAVE? I know that I would be, but that is not the question that I've posed. I know that I have the sense to not turn my depression and anger into violence. I think this is plainly obvious. But, out of spite and, perhaps, a little bit of fright, I would be reported -- and unjustly so.

My final question would be: what purpose does this serve? Do you think that a teenager incapable of doing so many things should be, of all things, a judge of his or her peers? Do you think that adults could handle this sort of responsibility? Sure, juries function. Juries, however, judge a single person, for a single crime. Is society capable of judging individuals? Should society have the right to judge individuals? Should teenagers, of all members of society to choose, have the right to judge individuals? I think not.
--Mike Greenberg
Thus spoke Zarathustra.



===================

Re:OK...questions

[hocrap]

2.Why not offer a help line for depressed kids rather than a snitch line? Canada has had the Kids' Help Phone for about 10 years now and it is wildly popular and successful, as well as ANONYMOUS

Kids need some infrastructure to listen to them. Listen about their problems or about their classmate's problems. If you really care about your classmate do you need money or rewards to start to be concerned ?

If their parent are not the right person to listen to them, they should at least have an anonymous person listening to them.

What they need is not the reward but a person who can listen to them in the first place. IMHO, I can't figure out why someone need a reward to help his fellow man. If you're not the type of person to get involve you should at least be able to tell anonymously what bother you and someone else can do something about it.

As a lots of people point out, history shows us some pretty scaring things about denouncing your neighbors, friends or coworker for a reward.

Ho pleeeeeeeeease, think of our children!

pointless

[jetwash]

This comment is going to be too far down the chain for anyone to bother reading, and all this has been said elsewhere in the thread, but I feel like I need to vent anyway.

The premise of the WAVE program has multiple, fundamental flaws:

"Suspicious" kids are sometimes the least deserving of suspicion. I would have been a prime target for the WAVE program (the Pinkerton one, not the movie one) in HS. I was a loner. I wore black and camouflage. I spent hours on the computer. I listened to violent, angry music. I acted out, angered easily, had a twisted and morbid sense of humor. I was a good shot with a rifle. I was the polar opposite of the crew-cut, ultra-conservative, football-playing, prom-going, illicit-beer-drinking status quo that dominated my school. Despite all this, I'm just fine today - graduated college with distinction, have a great programming job, live in a great city, have an interesting circle of friends, make more at 23 than both my parents, combined, ever.

Many (not all) of the "symptoms" Pinkerton lists on their website aren't indicative of violent psychosis so much as they are symptoms of an endemic that fails to afflict only the soulless - the emotional tumult of being a teenager. I don't condone violence or violent acts, but to create an atmosphere where adolescent emotion is stigmatized will only increase the wall of isolation that torments many of us at this age.

This will only reinforce administrative incompetence. High school administrators are notorious for being pathologically and monumentally incapable of thinking outside the box. Example: My principal wouldn't let my senior class have the theme from "Cheers" as the class song for fear that it would glorify drinking. (Yes, true story.) As often as not, this tool will end up being used to justify/reify such baseless and capricious acts by administrators. So much of one's success or failure in high school (at least, on the books) already depends on whether the administration/faculty like you or not - I'm sure that one questionable tip on the WAVE line will provide the justification for many an administrator to crucify a good, but disliked, kid.

It sends the wrong message about interpersonal trust and loyalty. Under the WAVE program, authority figures implicitly tell kids that betraying a friend commands a price as cheap as a cheesy baseball cap/t-shirt.

It will be abused. If another group of students doesn't like you, WAVE puts you in danger of being falsely ratted out, without any accountability from the reporting party.

Yeah, there are plenty of holes in my arguments, but I'm a little pissed off right now. Okay, back to work.

I hope...

[zztzed]

I hope this has a favorable outcome... but for the love of , Jon, PLEASE DON'T USE THE TERM "GEEK PROFILING" WHEN YOU'RE TALKING TO THEM.

--

My List of W.A.V.E. Concerns

[ForteBravo]

Treat children as children and you will get childish behavior. Treat them as adults and most of the time, you will be pleasantly rewarded. Give them the same rights, responsibilities, and protections, and we can guarantee schoolyard violence will be virtually wiped out.

However, the Pinkerton decision-makers have to realize that children live very different lives from the rest of us. In real life, legal protection is subordinate to common practice. Thus, a middle school student who is verbally or physically abused by peers is, by the laws of the schoolyard that prevail, not entitled to any protection from teachers, police, or the court system.

Now, this snippet of argument might lead one to think that I support the idea of adding the authority of a third (private, disinterested) party into the Schoolyard Corpus of Law.

But I do not. At least, I do not support Pinkerton's current version of the law. I think Pinkerton has been seduced by sunny blond girls and boys* linking hands, praying, weeping, singing songs about the violence in schools, vowing to fight intolerance and embrace all students. But the reality is this:

While the popular boys and girls may feel a grain of love and tolerance for their fellow students in the face of monstrous crimes, they fall, soon enough, into their old patterns, which range from simple exclusion by these sunny blond people to the commission of absolute atrocities against the rest of the schoolyard.

Haven't you wondered why you only ever saw cheerleaders linking hands with other cheerleaders in these media pictures? It's because the goths, geeks, and nerds know that the above italicised paragraph is a truism that cannot be affected by any number of Anti-Violence Singalongs. Diversity in the workplace has no analog in schools.

So, what is the solution? W.A.V.E. America is not the solution, in its current form. Here is a list of my concerns about this program.

1. In one breath, the Pinkerton site speaks of "responsibility", and in the next, allows children to duck responsibility by calling anonymous tips in on their fellow students.
   • Pro: If there were a danger to the student of being injured somehow if their name was released in conjunction with an investigation into a fellow student, then anonymity protects them.
   • Con: The right to know and face one's accuser is critical! The accuser's right to safety does not outweigh the rights of the accused. This has been proven over and over in our system of justice. If the student who calls the W.A.V.E. line believes they are in danger, then they are entitled to protection, not anonymity. Pinkerton probably has a division that could protect them (you know, razor for free, charge for the blades and all that). Students need to call the police, not W.A.V.E., if they are in so much danger that they cannot give their name.
2. What happens as the result of a call? A report is sent to school administrators. The school then has the responsibility to act on all tips -- anonymous or otherwise.
   • Pro: At least we don't have a corporation deciding which kids are troublemakers and which kids are being unfairly reported. Theoretically, the school administrators should be informed enough to gauge the difference and act fairly.
   • Con: Yeah right. W.A.V.E. strengthens the status quo by putting the power right back in the hands of the people that enforce a pecking order. What will the school do if a goth calls in and reports that the quarterback has been leaving dead animals in her locker again? Same as always - nothing at all, because school administrators virtually never act against the interests of the powerful or the popular**. When the opposite occurs, and the quarterback's girlfriend calls in to say the goth is threatening to blow away the football team, all hell will break loose. Maybe Pinkerton should be given a mandate to protect the innocent, even the freaky. (Yes I know -- it would be against every mandate in this country to hand over power/justice to a company whose responsibility is to make money. Not that there's anything wrong with that. The Pinkerton officials just need to be aware that a corporation absolutely cannot maximize profits and justice at the same time.)
3. Resolve, Respect, and Responsibility***. You mean, as defined by Pinkerton. Or as defined by your teachers. Or as defined by your local police. You probably don't mean, as defined by yourself, after much critical thinking and reading. For example:
   • Responsibility in the context of W.A.V.E. probably includes upholding the law of the land without ever questioning its fitness or justice.
   • Resolve means that when someone makes fun of your breasts, you tell an adult, preferably someone in charge like an administrator. When the administrator does nothing, you call W.A.V.E., who sends a report to the administrator. What do you do after that? *shrug* Beats me. Besides, W.A.V.E. might not even take your call if all you have to report is a silly little bit of sexual harassment.
   • Respect means knowing where you stand in the school hierarchy, and not stepping out of line in your daily interactions with other students. It probably doesn't mean demanding that 17 year old felons be put in jail regardless of their athletic scholarship.

There is just so much more I could address. If there'd been more notice, I would have asked Pinkerton if I could fly out as well. For instance, the mission statement that states that they are dedicated to "tomorrow's workforce" implies exclusion on their part -- poets and beatniks be damned, we're just protecting the future cubicle occupiers because as a company it would be irresponsible of us to protect anything beyond our own interests.

Anyway...to anyone that has read this far...thanks for listening to my admittedly long opinion on this matter!!

-- Amanda

*I bear no responsibility for the Aryan resemblance to Hitler youth. Associating violent jock gangs with Hitler youth might be valid, but it's still cheap and self-serving.
** Dissecting Columbine's Cult of the Athlete
***From the Pinkerton site

----------

Blown away...

[CodeShark]

I'm sitting here at my workstation with my jaw somewhere just above my shoelaces, hoping that maybe all of the comments posted by members of the /. community might have actually made a difference before a corporation does something that ends up being anti-freedom instead of after. My thought is that Pinkerton deserves at least one kudo for listening, and a whole lot more if they follow through with effective changes and/or dismantling parts of the program altogether.

That said, here's my list of thoughts, then a list of questions.

Thoughts:

1. Offering a T-Shirt to a young person isn't necessarily bad --but not as an incentive to "turn someone in". If I were a student, I'd much rather get a T-Shirt for participating in a program in which I learned how to reach out to a a depressed or disaffected person, rather than rat-finking on somebody I didn't even really understand.
2. An anonymous toll free number is good. Now then, make it a hotline where a depressed student can call and get anonymous help, and it might actually be a force for good, instead of for reporting differences.

Questions:

1. The company says it is also already revamping its vague criteria for identifying disturbed or dangerous kids, using specific symptoms recommended by psychiatric organizations.

   Great, now we've got untrained, immature students trying to perform complex psychological evaluations on each other. How does Pinkerton propose to overcome this immaturity and lack of training in students?
   

2. Wouldn't a more effective use of web resources be to create sites that offer training in communication techniques, web places where a student can anonymously ask for help?
3. It suggests the worst kind of Geek Profiling, in the process wantonly violating constitutional protections against unwarranted intrusions, search and seizure.

   How does Pinkerton propose to implement WAVE without violating these constitutional rights?

4. Under what criteria would an individual be added to a company database, and how long would they remain in the records?
5. Would records be made available to law enforcement agencies without a search warrant?
6. Finally, what guarantees are there in place that any information in these databases can never be exposed to outside parties?

Don't get me wrong -- I'm all for safe schools, etc. But students reporting on each other is the wrong use of resources. I'm all for a WAVE program that teaches inclusion, not reporting of exclusions.

The "warning signs"...

[Rantage]

Are listed here. I was amused to note the duplication of "Has unlawful possession and use of firearms.". I guess that's thrown in there twice for the kids with poor reading comprehension. :)

More disturbing was "Conveys violence in writings and/or drawings." Lot of room there. I guess kids shouldn't draw battles or scenes from their favorite movies; God knows what will be reported about them.

While still capable of being misinterpreted, I think the Imminent Warning Signs they list are a bit more on-target.

Totally worthless, IMHO, is the Why Call The WAVE Line page and it's purpose. It urges newly-hatched WAVE drones to call the line if they wish to anonymously report drug/alcohol abuse, vandalism and suicide threats -- valid cases I suppose -- along with aggressive behavior, harassment, intolerant attitudes and "Anything Else Harmful to You or Your School".

Gee, could I call the WAVE line to report that WAVE is harmful to me and my school?

Any of you high-school gratuates out there remember not experiencing some kind of agressive behavior, harassment or intolerant atttudes during those years?

I'm so damn glad my school days are long past; high school was stressful enough without worrying about the Stasi looking over my shoulder every minute.
Online gaming for motivated, sportsmanlike players: www.steelmaelstrom.org.

My biggest fear about WAVE: a tool for bullying

[davew]

Jon,

I'd really appreciate if you could ask the WAVE people how they plan to deal with its potential as a tool for bullying.

WAVE strikes me as an easy, anonymous and rewarding ($$$, t-shirts) way to cause instant grief to a fellow pupil. Kids who are willing to break a kid's bicycle lights, ostracise her in the yard, or embarrass them in the classroom on a permanent basis, will have no qualms about abusing this company's tool to get anyone quiet or different into trouble.

Now what I suspect is that, further to the above, the company's mechanisms will not be sufficient to catch such abuse.

Remember Independence Day? Remember the drunkard pilot who dusted the wrong field? Remember the TV interview with his "friends" who said, "Nice guy. Harmless guy. But the aliens abused him. Sexually."

Picture this now: an anonymous tip is received, "this guy's trouble". The class is identified. Now I don't know what WAVE's procedures are, but I reckon they're not going to just use a single anonymous tip-off before hauling in the kid, right? Surely they'll interview other kids first to make sure it's not just a grudge thing?

In a class of thirty, you will get twenty-four people who say "Dunno. He's quiet all the time. Noone seems to like him." and five who, for the laugh, will make up half-truths for the interviewer to make the kid seem as disturbed as possible.

Interviewer files his report, which is processed and added to the statistics database that will be presented to customers at the end of the year saying "we dealt with 100,000 potentially distressed students this year".

It's easy to see the individual elements of WAVE as pretty harmless in themselves. But taken together:

• Profit-making institution
• Anonymous reporting
• Rewards of cash and clothing
• Profit-making institution (this is what bothers me most, can you guess?)

...they'd seem to be the ingredients for a positive-feedback abuse loop. How can the WAVE people ensure that that never happens, please?

Dave

--

I have a report

[VAXGeek]

I'd like to turn in some of the kids from my school's computer club. They are always talking about "eunuchs". They walk around saying such things as 'awk' and 'grep'. They show signs of alcoholism by saying such things as "free as in beer", and appear to worship some kind of daemon. If this isn't malicious, anti-social behavior, I don't know what is.
------------
a funny comment: 1 karma
an insightful comment: 1 karma
a good old-fashioned flame: priceless

Question from a european point of view

[Nicolas MONNET]

I second Signail11's question. I have another question: do you realize that in Europe a plan such as yours would raise much concern, so much as to throw hundreds of thousands of protesters in the street? Do you realize that anonymously denouncing people has been only used by the harshest dictatorships in this century? Do KGB, Stasi, Gestapo and Sekuritat ring a bell to you? Ever heard of the concept of yellow star?

As for the marketing angle to your website (and as I understand it, whole program). Do you know that Europeans would never let their kids be exposed to the kind of advertising that's widely used in american schools? Maybe here again that's a reminiscence of dictatorships: I believe the nazis pioneered the use of propaganda towards children.

Having drawn those parallels, do you share my (our) concerns? If you do, and I hope you do, how come you did'nt think of it before?

KISS

[Signal 11]

I'll keep it short and sweet - my middle and high school years were a testament to how bad things can go wrong in public education.

The root cause of this is remarkably simple: standardized education hits the middle of the bell-curve and ignores, or is actively hostile to, any more than a standard deviation or so out. That is to say public education satisfies it's demands for about 69-78% of the population. For the rest, however, it's living hell.

Many kids who go through this become depressed, suicidal, despondent, their grades falter, peer relationships become unstable or non-existant.. all the symptoms of a person under high stress. What you are proposing to do will not help these children. All the program will do is associate yet another label to a problem nobody wants to address.

This background was necessary to give you a framework in which to see where I'm coming from with my question. My question is, why are you punishing these kids for being different?

I Find it Ironic

[chromatic]

I find it ironic that there are so many young people who are confused and hurting, who really need just one or two good adult role models to sit down with them and listen to them for a while...

... and those adults will hear some painful and confused feelings of isolation and loneliness and despair...

... and brand these kids as possible menaces to society.

When I was a teenager, I didn't want people to listen to me because they might be afraid of what I might do. I wanted people to listen to me because they cared about me and could identify with the way I was feeling and the thoughts I was thinking.

Don't alienate young people even further in the guise of helping them. Please.

--

Want to Stop WAVE dead? Ask them this:

[orpheus]

If you want to stop WAVE dead in its tracks, ask them what responsibility they are willing to take for the various aspects of their program (use the words "legal liability")

They cannot rely on the "open conduit" principle used by ISPs because they specifically stated that the 'kids will be trained' in the danger signs to recognize. As Governor Hunt noted, "This program is more than just a tip line, it teaches students and parents to look for the early signs of violent behavior and to resolve conflicts constructively."

Training children does not automatically induce liability (if it did, few would dare teach anyone anything out of fear that the student might not learn well or might deliberately misuse the knowledge), but the possibility clearly exists

I hate the fact that we live in a litigious society, but note that my examples (below) are just issues of responsibility. Corporations are not people (except in the eyes of the law) so the legal system stands in lieu of many of the elements of societal conditioning and 'conscience' that individuals are expected to have

The WAVE training and hotline will be the equivalent of showing a few Driver's Ed videos in assembly, leaving a Pinkerton car in the parking lot with the keys in the ignition, and telling the kids "it's for you to use only in serious situations."

If anything goes wrong, there will be two or more "innocent" minors involved, a 'beleagered' school, and a Big Corporation. And perhaps third party victims as well. Whatever the details of the case, no lawyer could overlook the deep pockets of the corporation.

There are a hundred issues of access/liability in such an unreliable database: Will they relay all tips blindly? Will they accept responsibility for those they choose to relay? Those that they choose NOT to relay? Will they keep all tips confidential (hiding them from potential victims)? Or does the public have 'a right to know'? Will the info be available freely to law enforcement or only under specific subpoena? Will the 'subject' be told of the detailss of the tip made against him/her? Or will it ne an undefendable slur?

What are the specific criteria for reportable actions? Example: drugs, yes -- but casual use or dealing; and what type of drugs? Tobacco? Alcohol? Only 'illegal' drugs? Oops, sorry, both butts and beers are illegal in this group, and being drunk poses the same dangers as being high when it comes to both violence and lethally poor judgement (e.g. throwing rock off the water tower onto the school yard)

What about pornography? Allegations of danger signs or situations inside the family (physical or sexual abuse -- gee, I guess even the parents aren't safe, after all)? Depression? Sexual activity? Religious beliefs? Political beliefs? (Look out Satanists and neo-Nazis... but also, wiccans, politically active Arab refugees, etc. it doesn't take much to be labeled a potential terrorist or 'cult')

Oh yeah, I'm waiting for Crosstown High's entire football team to be hauled in for questioning the week before the state finals... on a series of tips from Riverdale High. A rumor of last week's kegger is one thing, but with an outside company making the report, the pricipal doesn't dare risk one of the kids getting in a drunk driving accident next month.)

Oh I'm sorry, is this a downer? Is this getting awfully complicated when all you wanted to do was stamp out DOOM players, kids who wear black, freshman whose AP Chemistry scores suggest "more than adequate knowledge to make a bomb" (it happened to me, and the shadow followed me through HS. Funny thing - a senior with the same knowledge would be applauded)

Lord help them if they decide 'on a case-by-case basis'. That's pretty much full liability.

In short. THEY design a system. THEY implement it. THEY are going to have a tough time if something goes wrong. And it WILL, perhaps not because of them, but nonetheless their nose will be inextricably stuck into a situation fraught with inherent perils... with a plan that's untested and has had relatively few man-months of thought. (something with this kind of impact needs tens or hundreds of thousands of man-months of debate -- e.g. a public referendum on the ballot)

__________

Bring me the head of the football team captain....

[Jurph]

...and I'll give you a T-Shirt.

Athlete-worship and America's anti-intellectualism (whichever caused the other) are both to blame for the "socially acceptable" violence that occurs as the alpha males haze the underlings. The problem is that even in chimp research, every once in a long long while, the underling surprises the alpha male and kills him. Doesn't just rub his nose in shit, doesn't just throw him out of a tree... kills him. And then the whole family of chimps, enamored with their alpha male, ostracize the chimp who did it.

WAVE might give the nerds a chance to rat out the jocks (but who would wear a shirt that says, "I'm a Narc, guys!" to school?), but no matter what 20/20 hindsight they have, and no matter what they told the interviewers, the jocks never saw Columbine coming. Let me say that again:

THEY NEVER SAW IT COMING.

Any jock who beats up geeks knows that he's not as smart as they are. Bullying stems from insecurity. A bully who picks on a pensive geek is asking to be taken by surprise, in a devious, well-thought-out plan, that allows no revenge.

SO: we need to save these Darwin candidates from themselves. Turn them in, take the cash, buy hardware, and stay smart. The more bullies we stop young, the less we have to kill.

In short, WAVE won't ever find the dangerous geeks, but if its creators are smart, WAVE can be used to stop all of the violence.

Oh boy...

[spankenstein]

Is this what people think is actually the solution? I am amazed by america everyday.

Can kids not go to their parents anymore? I came from a severly broken home, but I could almost always go to one of my parents with a problem. I have a 10 month old daughter. I hope that she can come to me when she is older.

Personally I don't see kids getting worse, on the contrary I see less violence than when I was in High School 3 years ago. My younger siste is a junior and has had progressivley less problems and talks about progressively fewer fights every year.

I think the major problem that we are facing is completely irresposible media. Sure, Columbine was news worthy, but it was NOT a commentary on America's youth. It's not a commentary on the Internet, it's not a commentary on Games.

I know many people that spend hours per day on the net, play quake, listen to heavy music and wear dark clothing that are as happy as humanly possible. They are just enjoying life. At work we played a Q3A deathmatch last night. I didn't go kill anyone, i didn't even harm animals as I ate my vegetarian dinner. So i listened to some punk rock and went to sleep.

This morning I woke up and was at my job at 7:30 a.m., about an hour and a half early. I didn't kill anyone. I have no real anger in my body right now and I've been on the net all morning.

In high school i would have been a prime target for this. I was a depressed, insomniac, geek/musician that had multi-colored hair in multiple spiky arrangements and a skateboard and a really bad attitude about life. I never went over the edge. But being persecuted like this could have easily pushed the wrong buttons.

OK...questions

[gonzocanuck]

1.Why is the website privacy policy so lax? Nabisco's Candystand has more rules than this! It would never fly with Truste (not that *that's* saying much)

2.Why not offer a help line for depressed kids rather than a snitch line? Canada has had the Kids' Help Phone for about 10 years now and it is wildly popular and successful, as well as ANONYMOUS

3.Rewarding kids is nothing new, but doesn't WAVE take corporate sponsorship to a new level? It's bad enough that there is so much advertising in schools, and I feel kids today are just being groomed to consume and consume since they day they're able to point "I want that".

4.One of my favourite authors once wrote about the indecency of being made to pee in a bottle "with the results potentially ruining your life forever" or something to that effect...is WAVE more interested in ruining lives or actually helping them?

Re:What if -- A compromise

[goliard]

FYI, I had an acquaintance who decided to get a mutual classmate in serious trouble; he enlisted my aid, and the aid of a number of other kids likely to be considered "reliable witnesses" by the teachers, and the complicity of a bigger kid for "backup". Then he got the majority of the class to help him provoke a fight with the target; the bigger kid stepped in a saved his butt from being kicked. When the principle was called in, all the witnesses were already lined up. We got the kid detention for a week.

Just so you know.
----------------------------------------------

Fury

[goliard]

Two things, Jon:

(1) Sure, read it to the CEO. But you do realize that Pinkerton is exploiting this political stunt? That if they don't sell this or some other "defensive" product (they aren't in a position to sell therapy or other remedy to personal problems, only defense of the school), they have no business interest at all?

(2) The thing which most pisses me off about this entire thing, having gone to read their web site, is that they're selling to the schools and parents the myth of students that they want to hear: that it's all the kids' fault. In particular, they have all this nonsense about getting students to take the threat of violence seriously. I assure you, the kids take the threat of violence seriously! That's why most kids bring knives and guns to school in the first place! That's why teasing is so threatening and traumatic -- it's not because your feelings have been hurt, but because you don't know how far or fast the situation will escalate.

The FACT is that it is the teachers and administrators who don't take the threat of violence seriously. They're the ones who turn a blind eye ("kids will be kids") right up to the moment one kid blows another's brains out.

That Pinkerton could so venally cater to the self-serving, responsibility-absolving fantasies of school administrators that it's really all the kids' fault for not taking violence seriously, or not "walking away from fights" is sick and evil.

But, theres's no business in selling schools a product which shows them their deficiencies, or seats responsibility in the school staff. Who will buy a product or service which tells them that they allow violence to be perpetrated against children? Much more emotionally safe to buy a product which puts the responsibility onto the victims themselves.
----------------------------------------------

Kids and Guns

[Ungrounded Lightning]

I don't know what the Pinkertons' current set of criteria are. But some of the other schemes that were bandied about after Columbine involved scoring systems that penalized the targeted individual for things like presence of guns in the house and experience with guns.

Approximately half of the households in the United States have one or more gun present. A large fraction of those households - probably the majority - are populated by members of one of the factions of the American Pluralist culture.

These people train their children in proper gun handling at an early age. They are generally gifted with a gun, as well, typically when the parents or guardians determine that they have demonstrated by their behavior that they are responsible to handle it, or at the first birthday thereafter. This may happen as early as age 12 (though the gun will be stored safely, and the child will lose access to it if he demonstrates irresponsibility later).

The criminal and violent activity of children who have been trained with guns by responsible adults has been studied, and compared with that of those who have not been so trained. It turns out that the overall delinquency rates of the two groups are about the same. But when you look at the TYPES of misbehavior, the difference is drastic.

While the kids not trained with guns are out selling drugs, mugging, and robbing liquor stores, the kids trained with guns are out after curfew, or smoking in the boy's room. Even when kids trained with guns become involved with local youth gangs or commit assaults (which they do much less frequently than those not so trained), there is a conspicuous difference: They don't use a gun in the assault.

And if you look at the perpetrators of the various highly-publicised school shootings, you'll see a significant fact that the press has missed: Virtually all of the perpetrators came from families that were strongly anti-gun. At least one was the child of a prominent activist in the anti-gun movement.

So I share with the rest of the posters the concern about labeling of intelligent tech-savvy kids who hang out with others of their kind, don't participate in sports, and are already the butt of the jocks' and authority figures' harrassment. And I share the concern about the use of such turn-in programs by the little psycopaths prevalent in schools to further harrass anyone who doesn't knuckle under to them or who reports THEIR misbehavior, to obtain gifts off the system, or to hassle people at random just for giggles. But I have an additional worry.

I'm concerned that the Pinkertons will become involved in the current culture war. I'm concerned that this tool will be used to stigmatize children who have the misfortune to be born into a household that is a member of one of a set of well-integrated, peaceful, social traditions that predates the American Revolution.

And I'm concerned that this will further the attempts at the eradication of those cultural groups.

Dear Pinkertons:

[technos]

I am a geek. A flaming geek. The kind of geek that inspired both fear from the mentally deficient and awe from the intelligent.

But even given the strictest 'psych-inspired' guidelines, I would have been locked away in a WAVE-sponsored rubber-room. I spent quite a few years studying 'profiling', and the underlying psychology as part of degrees in criminal justice and forensics. At the time, we were introduced to a study that had come out of the Ohio Department of Youth Services. According to their risk assessment criteria for juvenile offenders (which looks strangly enough like your WAVE criteria) I would have been locked away in a maximum security juvenile facility, drugged with antidepressants, and forced to undergo extensive counselling had I done anything as wrong as being ticketed for spitting on the sidewalk in Dayton.

And what had I done to deserve this dangerous classification? I was introverted, had an IQ of 160+, made vague verbal intimations of violence toward others ('get out of my face, jock, or I'll make sure you're the first one dead when the Revolution comes') and was more interested in frobbing ten-year old computer equipment than frobbing sixteen-year old girls.

'I must have been ill.' Bull. You stick yourself in a room full of mental vegetables and see how long it takes you to become depressed and angry. Try to sit through two years of high school after graduating college. Same feeling.

And what became of me? Well, I finished two degrees, and am on the 'fast-track' at a major company. I am well-adjusted, moral, and probably finished ahead of 90% of you 'WAVE-approved' sheep. The last generation of my family was almost locked up in a rubber room at Pleasant Ridge during the wave of profiling in the early sixties, for much the same reasons Ohio would have had me locked up. One is a lawyer, one is on her second doctorate, and the last is a published author and noted engineer. We are collectivly the cream of society. If your system would have us locked up as 'deviant', it needs to be rethought.

Checks and balances

[spiralx]

I was wondering what kind of checks and balances you would be applying to this system? Surely you must have considered the issues behind this beforehand and must have some kind of idea about how to separate the potentially dangerous from the depressed or prank victim. Given that the point of this is that fellow students are in a better position to notice behavioural problems, how do you as outsiders determine the validity of an anonymous call?

Given that Americans pride themselves on the various checks and balances inherent in the Constitution, I am curious to know how this system will be balanced. I believe that the underlying idea has some merit - after all fellow students are the most likely to notice problems at an age where parents generally aren't confided in - but in its current incarnation it seems it will simply lead to a deluge of pranks, hoaxes and wrong diagnoses. The flood of names supplied to WAVE may seem to validate its purpose, but in reality what is the use of this system in every teenager in America is on their lists?

Turn em' in

[SnugBoy]

How about offering teens some money to turn in jocks/popular kids that harras the kids that do not fit the "social norm". I would say that occurances of these rulling class students beating on/harrasing others BY FAR outwieghs the few random times that so called outcasts are pushed to the point of violence. If anything should be done, the people who are at the core of all this (the bullies) should be screened and not the victims