Yep. After loading slashdot, then opening the first 5 stories in tabs, then switching to them and scrolling to the bottom, then closing them, then going to qtcentre.org and opening the first 6 forum posts in tabs, memory usage is 68mb for firefox and 64mb for konqueror. Closing all those tabs and going to about:blank puts memory usage at 64MB for both.
So basically memory usage for normal browsing is the same.
Sorry, my mistake. I noticed I did have an extension still active in FF. So firefox 3 actually uses 45735k of effective resident. So not nearly as bad as I first posted, but still 50% more than konq on the same page.
Well, I just did a simple test. Start Firefox 3 beta 5, no extensions loaded and open the parent story on slashdot. Then start konqueror (4.0.2) to view the exact same page and scroll to the bottom on both browsers.
Memory usage measured with exmap (the only decent way to measure memory usage on linux http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/analysis.html ) Effective resident (K) firefox-bin 71262 konqueror 30868
So on this simple test, konqueror uses less than half the RAM as Firefox 3b5. Obviously this test is simple minded, as I only load one page. And Konq in KDE 4.0.2 still has some nasty bugs. But because I'm running KDE, konqueror actually shares a lot of its memory with other apps, while Firefox is one monolithic beast that doesn't share libraries with any other app on my machine.
>> Also, you often can't write the entire application using Qt only. That's the beauty of C++ - that it has a lot of code already written in it (note that 99% of all C code also counts) that can be immediately reused.
True. Although in my experience (having written ~100kloc of C++/Qt code), Qt covers 95% of what I need. The only time I really need to stray outside is if I particular system integration needs, which might require some WinAPI (MSAA parsing for example). The only other major library I use on a regular basis is OpenCV, since I do a lot of image processing work.
Yeah. I wouldn't see OSS as a replacement for work experience. People need money after all. I just want to see some evidence that a person has done some programming without being forced to do so by school or work. That could be OSS work, a programming competition, or their own hobby project.
You might be right that the HR departments of big companies, or older engineers won't value open source experience, but that's certainly not true for me. I'm hiring a couple co-op students in the summer, and OSS work immediately gets their resumes prioritized. A job is just a job, and the motivation is mostly money. But OSS work shows that the person actually has a passion for programming, and is willing to do it for no money. That enthusiasm is far more important than any small skill difference in my experience.
That example is complete bogus. Sure you can write some horrible code in C++, but I write C++ code for a living, and it's at least as clean as any Java or C#. You just need to use the right libraries. Qt provides a class library at least as good as those shipped with C# and Java, and you don't get any of the disadvantages of a virtual machine, with most of the advantages.
Pretty sure. First of all, I only do this for numbers I don't recognize. If its a real human they will respond in a reasonable time. I can't think of any situation where an important call would use an automatic dialer. I've been called by Visa about some issue with my card, and they always use real humans that respond right away.
Oh. Missed that. Sucks that it doesn't bring back the old behaviour. Personally I love the new bar, but it really only works on faster machines. On my EeePC, the new address bar is quite slow.
Even faster. Pick up, say "Hello?" If there's no response within 1-2 seconds its a telemarketer and you can immediately hang up. They call lots of people at the same time and it takes a few seconds for them to put a human on when you pick up. Completely foolproof, and I haven't talked to a telemarketer in years.
Except you shouldn't be writing code in C++ either, you should be writing it in a higher-level language like Python
I dunno.. I've never used Python for anything big, but I just like C++ pretty well. It's fast, and statically typed, which I think is important for anything large. I haven't really liked any apps written in python, mostly for their memory usage. I don't mind it if the apps are things I use rarely, but everything that's running constantly I want to be native (for example, I quickly replaced the power manager in kubuntu which was python based with kpowersave and cut the memory usage of it down quite a bit).
I really wish I could find something as polished as glade3 for KDE that I can use in Python.
Can't you use designer with python? Never used glade3 so I dont know how it compares.
Also, GTK+ is LGPL-licensed, but Qt is GPL2 licensed, so programming for GNOME doesn't tie you to whichever version of the GPL that TrollTech likes this week.
As an engineer, I can't with clear conscience use a desktop environment built almost entirely on C. One look at the code is enough for me to know that C/GTK is certainly the wrong tool for the job, while C++/Qt is actually suitable for that kind of work.
Thats because you never studied with the right group. I went through engineering with a group of friends, some I knew from highschool, and some that got added at university, and we took just about identical courses for 4 years. So a lot of assignments (at least till 3 years) were done as a group. I learned the most in those study groups. Each person picked up different subjects faster than others, so they lead the group in those subjects. So usually they would finish the assignment first, and the others would be slightly behind, with the assignment as a reference if they needed it. But no one copied assignments, we just did mutual checking. So if the slower students got stuck they could look at the reference, and often the second check uncovered faults in the completed assignments, so the currently smarter person benefited as well.
If everyone was working alone, then everyone would understand less of the material. That said, this facebook thing is completely different and should rightly be stopped.
The OCZ tech is actually done by the same guy that created the Cyberlink http://www.brainfingers.com/ which is for people with disabilities. The detection hardware is 15 years old by this point, and is quite primitive (but functional). The OCZ device is a complete redesign. So OCZ are co-operating with him, but not doing any of the heavy lifting themselves. It's going to be capable of a lot more than binary output though. Even the cyberlink had the capability to output a good range of signals.
I've developed proprietary Qt and GTK+ apps on Windows, and I don't see why either one is more "decent" than the other.
Yikes, you're not looking very closely. Qt is basically native, to the point where only if you look very closely can you see the difference. I use Qt4 to write proprietary apps on windows, and I haven't had any complaints about them not acting native. Native file dialogs, native look, and no widgets that act funny. GTK is nothing close to that. Saying that its better because its more broken is bizarre.
Between Ubuntu and Fedora, GNOME is probably a majority of Linux users these days.
Pure speculation. There is no actual evidence on which environment is used more (aside from the annual web polls, which favour KDE more often than Gnome, but are so inaccurate they really can't be used as evidence).
Firefox doesn't feel "native", either. Result? People go out of their way (Camino, Epiphany) to wrap Gecko in native widget toolkits
People don't seem to mind that much. Website stats seem to indicate that most people still use the regular Firefox.
The UI is the most important part of Photoshop.
So, on windows the UI is good. But if you have the exact same UI on Linux it suddenly becomes lousy? That makes no sense whatsoever. Sure, it would be nice if it used native file dialogs depending on the desktop, but the rest is really not that important. If the UI makes sense on windows, its fine on linux as well.
That's different. The used memory in Linux is used by disk caches. If you type free you get a more accurate number in the second row where the caches are subtracted.
Vista actually uses lots of memory that does not get reclaimed when apps need it. When I log in to a clean desktop, memory use is around 500-600mb, and that is real memory use, not caches. When I start using apps that require a lot of memory, data starts to be written to swap. As soon as you hit swap, you've already lost the performance game. In linux, when I start using lots of memory in my apps, the disk cache memory is reclaimed for the apps and I don't hit swap. Huge difference.
Re:People use Photoshop to Dev the Web too Adobe!
on
Adobe To Port AIR To Linux
·
· Score: 3, Insightful
No GTK apps are what I would consider to be truly cross platform. GIMP on Windows looks like GIMP on linux with a theme applied. No GTK apps integrate properly with the native environments in Windows or OS X. Qt at least makes a decent attempt. So a port to GTK would make Photoshop only gnome-native anyway. Better to just use Wine, make the interface exactly familiar to all users of photoshop, and save thousands of man months of effort.
Well, EeePC's clock speed may only be 4x faster but performance doesn't scale like that. I remember my Athlon 1.4ghz was over 50x faster than my celeron 300 at certain tasks because of increased cache and various new instruction sets.
But I would welcome better web performance on the eee. Gmail is sometimes a bit slow on mine.
No problem with private local access at all. However, as you recall the topic was accessing inappropriate material online and how that can be prevented.
Slashdot Mirror
Yep. After loading slashdot, then opening the first 5 stories in tabs, then switching to them and scrolling to the bottom, then closing them, then going to qtcentre.org and opening the first 6 forum posts in tabs, memory usage is 68mb for firefox and 64mb for konqueror. Closing all those tabs and going to about:blank puts memory usage at 64MB for both.
So basically memory usage for normal browsing is the same.
Sorry, my mistake. I noticed I did have an extension still active in FF. So firefox 3 actually uses 45735k of effective resident. So not nearly as bad as I first posted, but still 50% more than konq on the same page.
Well, I just did a simple test. Start Firefox 3 beta 5, no extensions loaded and open the parent story on slashdot. Then start konqueror (4.0.2) to view the exact same page and scroll to the bottom on both browsers.
Memory usage measured with exmap (the only decent way to measure memory usage on linux http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/analysis.html )
Effective resident (K)
firefox-bin 71262
konqueror 30868
So on this simple test, konqueror uses less than half the RAM as Firefox 3b5. Obviously this test is simple minded, as I only load one page. And Konq in KDE 4.0.2 still has some nasty bugs. But because I'm running KDE, konqueror actually shares a lot of its memory with other apps, while Firefox is one monolithic beast that doesn't share libraries with any other app on my machine.
>> Also, you often can't write the entire application using Qt only. That's the beauty of C++ - that it has a lot of code already written in it (note that 99% of all C code also counts) that can be immediately reused.
True. Although in my experience (having written ~100kloc of C++/Qt code), Qt covers 95% of what I need. The only time I really need to stray outside is if I particular system integration needs, which might require some WinAPI (MSAA parsing for example). The only other major library I use on a regular basis is OpenCV, since I do a lot of image processing work.
Yeah. I wouldn't see OSS as a replacement for work experience. People need money after all. I just want to see some evidence that a person has done some programming without being forced to do so by school or work. That could be OSS work, a programming competition, or their own hobby project.
You might be right that the HR departments of big companies, or older engineers won't value open source experience, but that's certainly not true for me. I'm hiring a couple co-op students in the summer, and OSS work immediately gets their resumes prioritized. A job is just a job, and the motivation is mostly money. But OSS work shows that the person actually has a passion for programming, and is willing to do it for no money. That enthusiasm is far more important than any small skill difference in my experience.
That example is complete bogus. Sure you can write some horrible code in C++, but I write C++ code for a living, and it's at least as clean as any Java or C#. You just need to use the right libraries. Qt provides a class library at least as good as those shipped with C# and Java, and you don't get any of the disadvantages of a virtual machine, with most of the advantages.
Pretty sure. First of all, I only do this for numbers I don't recognize. If its a real human they will respond in a reasonable time. I can't think of any situation where an important call would use an automatic dialer. I've been called by Visa about some issue with my card, and they always use real humans that respond right away.
Oh. Missed that. Sucks that it doesn't bring back the old behaviour. Personally I love the new bar, but it really only works on faster machines. On my EeePC, the new address bar is quite slow.
An option would be better, but there is an extension to bring back the old address bar. Unfortunately I can't find it at the moment.
Even faster. Pick up, say "Hello?" If there's no response within 1-2 seconds its a telemarketer and you can immediately hang up. They call lots of people at the same time and it takes a few seconds for them to put a human on when you pick up. Completely foolproof, and I haven't talked to a telemarketer in years.
So, all 800 people at my company with nvidia chipsets cannot deploy vista until a) the drivers are fixed. b) the hardware cycle comes up in 4 years.
You say that like its a bad thing...
Except you shouldn't be writing code in C++ either, you should be writing it in a higher-level language like Python
I dunno.. I've never used Python for anything big, but I just like C++ pretty well. It's fast, and statically typed, which I think is important for anything large. I haven't really liked any apps written in python, mostly for their memory usage. I don't mind it if the apps are things I use rarely, but everything that's running constantly I want to be native (for example, I quickly replaced the power manager in kubuntu which was python based with kpowersave and cut the memory usage of it down quite a bit).
I really wish I could find something as polished as glade3 for KDE that I can use in Python.
Can't you use designer with python? Never used glade3 so I dont know how it compares.
Also, GTK+ is LGPL-licensed, but Qt is GPL2 licensed, so programming for GNOME doesn't tie you to whichever version of the GPL that TrollTech likes this week.
Actually, Qt 4.3.4 can be used with the GPLV2 or GPLV3, as well as a boatload of other licenses as documented here: http://trolltech.com/products/qt/gplexception
As an engineer, I can't with clear conscience use a desktop environment built almost entirely on C. One look at the code is enough for me to know that C/GTK is certainly the wrong tool for the job, while C++/Qt is actually suitable for that kind of work.
Usability arguments by assertion. The only way to go!
Thats because you never studied with the right group. I went through engineering with a group of friends, some I knew from highschool, and some that got added at university, and we took just about identical courses for 4 years. So a lot of assignments (at least till 3 years) were done as a group. I learned the most in those study groups. Each person picked up different subjects faster than others, so they lead the group in those subjects. So usually they would finish the assignment first, and the others would be slightly behind, with the assignment as a reference if they needed it. But no one copied assignments, we just did mutual checking. So if the slower students got stuck they could look at the reference, and often the second check uncovered faults in the completed assignments, so the currently smarter person benefited as well.
If everyone was working alone, then everyone would understand less of the material. That said, this facebook thing is completely different and should rightly be stopped.
Nah you still have it. The level of truth in a comment has no correlation with its rating... :)
The OCZ tech is actually done by the same guy that created the Cyberlink http://www.brainfingers.com/ which is for people with disabilities. The detection hardware is 15 years old by this point, and is quite primitive (but functional). The OCZ device is a complete redesign. So OCZ are co-operating with him, but not doing any of the heavy lifting themselves. It's going to be capable of a lot more than binary output though. Even the cyberlink had the capability to output a good range of signals.
I've developed proprietary Qt and GTK+ apps on Windows, and I don't see why either one is more "decent" than the other.
Yikes, you're not looking very closely. Qt is basically native, to the point where only if you look very closely can you see the difference. I use Qt4 to write proprietary apps on windows, and I haven't had any complaints about them not acting native. Native file dialogs, native look, and no widgets that act funny. GTK is nothing close to that. Saying that its better because its more broken is bizarre.
Between Ubuntu and Fedora, GNOME is probably a majority of Linux users these days.
Pure speculation. There is no actual evidence on which environment is used more (aside from the annual web polls, which favour KDE more often than Gnome, but are so inaccurate they really can't be used as evidence).
Firefox doesn't feel "native", either. Result? People go out of their way (Camino, Epiphany) to wrap Gecko in native widget toolkits
People don't seem to mind that much. Website stats seem to indicate that most people still use the regular Firefox.
The UI is the most important part of Photoshop.
So, on windows the UI is good. But if you have the exact same UI on Linux it suddenly becomes lousy? That makes no sense whatsoever. Sure, it would be nice if it used native file dialogs depending on the desktop, but the rest is really not that important. If the UI makes sense on windows, its fine on linux as well.
That's different. The used memory in Linux is used by disk caches. If you type free you get a more accurate number in the second row where the caches are subtracted.
Vista actually uses lots of memory that does not get reclaimed when apps need it. When I log in to a clean desktop, memory use is around 500-600mb, and that is real memory use, not caches. When I start using apps that require a lot of memory, data starts to be written to swap. As soon as you hit swap, you've already lost the performance game. In linux, when I start using lots of memory in my apps, the disk cache memory is reclaimed for the apps and I don't hit swap. Huge difference.
So why upgrade then? ;)
No GTK apps are what I would consider to be truly cross platform. GIMP on Windows looks like GIMP on linux with a theme applied. No GTK apps integrate properly with the native environments in Windows or OS X. Qt at least makes a decent attempt. So a port to GTK would make Photoshop only gnome-native anyway. Better to just use Wine, make the interface exactly familiar to all users of photoshop, and save thousands of man months of effort.
Well, EeePC's clock speed may only be 4x faster but performance doesn't scale like that. I remember my Athlon 1.4ghz was over 50x faster than my celeron 300 at certain tasks because of increased cache and various new instruction sets.
But I would welcome better web performance on the eee. Gmail is sometimes a bit slow on mine.
No problem with private local access at all. However, as you recall the topic was accessing inappropriate material online and how that can be prevented.
>> Are you saying that the parents having control would somehow prevent that from happening?
Of course. Either you directly monitor internet access (only under supervision) or you install web filtering software. Problem solved.
>> Do you also believe that if the government had complete access to everything in your life that you would be protected from muggings?
Strawman. I am not a child.