This is great news. The more people using KHTML based browsers the better for website compatibility. I think having 3 browser engines around with non-insignificant market share would be great.
I just replaced my desktop with a laptop. Why bother with a bulky desktop when I can get a fast, luggable laptop for cheap? With the proliferation of wireless access points, I can go just about anywhere and get the internet. There's not much point in having a desktop at home when I'm not there more than half of the time.
By the way, the Compaq R4000 series is a wicked deal if you're looking for a desktop replacement.
When will you realize that the complaint was NEVER about how Apple is not doing enough. The KHTML guys accepted that because Apple was complying with the GPL. The KHTML guys were complaining about people like YOU that lay blame on them for not implementing some of the patches from webcore. It was explained that not all patches can be merged because they are extremely obtuse, referring to bugs that the KHTML guys had no access to. When you get a huge patch with a commment that says "Fixes issue #1239837" and you have no idea what that issue is, then its pretty hard to decide whether that issue applies to your codebase or not.
Christ, I can't believe how many idiots like you still haven't figured out what the commotion was all about, and insist on blaming the KDE guys for whining.
Are you saying you have no way to get high res CRTs anymore? I somehow don't believe that. The medical market is pretty big and profitable, I hardly think vendors would completely drop CRTs if there is no replacement available yet.
You make a baseless claim. You have no idea if they will chose Windows XP or Linux. I think if both are properly installed on the hardware, it would be a toss up.
Of course if you assume that these users have prior experience with Windows, they would probably choose Windows, but then the comparison is useless.
Yes! Great comment.. Actually I've run into people that gave up on OO.o for those very reasons.
I was talking to someone that was frantic that she couldn't spellcheck her essay because she only had wordpad. So I pointed her towards Openoffice and gave her the download link. It downloaded the self extracting zip, which extracted by default into some crazy directory under Documents and Settings\Administrator\Local Files or whatever. So the report I got (this was over IM) was, "I hit extract and it did some stuff for a long time and then nothing". So it extracted the zip to some temporary folder god knows where, and then didn't launch the setup utility. How is a new user supposed to understand that?
So I gave up and just spellchecked the document for her and sent it back.
If you are still interested in Linux, you should check out the mailing list I linked to. Many people have had success with the R3000 and Linux. There may be some fiddling necessary unfortunately.
The biggest problem with the R4000 is the video card, but the R3000 has an NVidia card which works quite well.
Thanks for your advice.. I'll try it out. I've been holding off using the vesa driver because it only does 1024x768 which makes the display quite fuzzy since the LCD has to interpolate stuff. At least that's what the Suse 9.3 Live DVD did. It looked ok but definitely not optimal.
You're right that Linux supports more hardware in total. Unfortunately, what everyone sees is that it doesn't support the gadget they just bought. And that's what it's all about. Sure their linux box supports a million other devices, but if it doesn't support the one they just got, then the perception is that Linux hardware support is inferior to Windows.
And they are perfectly correct in saying this. Now this isn't Linux's fault, but the bottom line remains the same.
I just bought a R4000 from Compaq (R4025CA to be exact) and am having the same issues. Kubuntu is the only linux that correctly set up the display to 1280x800 but it crashes as soon as you login. The proprietary ATI drivers state support fro the video chipset (Radeon Express 200M) but there appears to be some bug there yet. New drivers just got released, so maybe I'll try to get those working.
The wireless card should work with ndiswrapper.
I'm not sure about the sound card.. I tried the Suse 9.3 Live DVD and it didn't recognize the sound card at all, although I've heard it should be supported in Alsa.
If you are interested, there is a mailing list devoted specifically to getting linux running on this line of laptops.. It's called R3000, but there is some discussion starting on the R4000, which has the basically the same hardware as your ZV6000.
So far I've just been using Windows on this laptop, I haven't had the time to beat linux into shape on it.. Which is too bad, I find I'm missing all the cool things in linux that I've gotten used to over the past 3-4 years using it on my desktop. But I don't regret getting this laptop, it was a really sweet deal. Athlon 64 3200+, 1GB RAM, 80GB HDD, Dual layer DVD Burner, Integrated 802.11g, 1280x800 widescreen, and the Radeon Express 200M has its own dedicated memory, supports DX9, and plays the recent games well enough for me. All for $1499 canadian.
It's not about what we need. It's about what people will buy. If the bottom line is that you don't need it, then don't use it. I can never understand people complaining about technology they think is useless. Exactly what impact does it have on your life if they make a microwave with 100 power levels?
I'll tell you, NONE. But for the dude around the corner, it's what he's been looking for, and more importantly, what he'll shell out a couple bills for.
Concerning the song identification, I think it's pretty neat. My cell phone carrier, Fido, has had this for quite some time (#DJ) and it works impressively well. Musicbrainz is similar for tagging MP3s, but I haven't had much success with it. It quite often misidentifies songs. What I really want is some sort of program that you could run that performs the analysis on whatever is being put out on the soundcard and then tries to guess the song title from that. Now that would be cool for figuring out the title of songs streamed from the internet, or in movies.
Bullshit. If that's considered a dumb mistake, then 30%-50% of college students make the same mistake all the time. You think if the guy is a couple months older than his girlfriend, they're going to stop having sex when he turns 18?
This does not fall under a stupid mistake.. It's a retarded law that was excercised because of a hysterical mother somewhere.
It doesn't matter what Windows developers do. The point is OS-neutral.
Did you even read my post? That's what I'm saying. The GP was pointing out these issues like they are unique to Linux, when they are common to every OS ever made.
Yes, a server crashing is a bug no matter what the circumstances are. I'm not saying it isn't. I'm saying there is a work to benefit ratio for every bug out there, and for some reason it is just not worth the fix. For example, in a few specific circumstances a bug manifests itself, but fixing it would have some detrimental side effects for the majority of users, so it may not be worth fixing. Not every bug can be fixed, and that's ok. It's not like developers are refusing to fix it because "windows is buggy too".
But if it claimed to run on every *nix and it didn't work on a SGI, then that is a bug. Period.
And bugs in software are news to you? It sounds like the Gaim guys accepted the patch that the GP submitted. A bug is found, and it is fixed by someone that notices it and has the skills to do it, business as usual.
Sorry about the boldface, but this attitude pisses me off.
I know slashdotters love to slot posts into either the "windows fanboy" or "open source zealot" category, but my post is certainly not in either of them.
I asked Alan Cox about it (via irc) and the response was "buy more memory". Nice.
You're saying Microsoft will fix every bug that gets reported? Perhaps this is a corner case that doesn't happen in many situations but would be tough to fix. Or perhaps Alan is right. If you are regularly running out of memory on your webserver, it's time to beef it up a little.
There is no way anybody had ever used Gaim on an SGI without making these fixes, so it seems reasonable to suggest the authors had never tried it before.
Of course. Don't tell me that every program written by Joe Developer on Windows has been tested to run on 95/98/98SE/Me/2000/XP with every combination of service pack. Such is the reality of limited resources.
It seems reasonable from this experience that nobody had bothered testing what the UDMA code in openBSD would do with 2 drives on the same bus both being exercised.. otherwise they'd have seen the DMA errors on the console.
Yes. This is unfortunate, but hardly surprising.. Once again, limited resources. Not everyone can afford to test on thousands of different combinations of hardware.
Then there was the issue around the oBSD 2.6 timeframe where the console would sleep and never, ever wake back up.
And then there was the issue around Windows XP where the entire system would crash if I tried to exit the VS.NET debugger while my code was driving the firewire camera. Great, bugs exist, even severe ones. No OS is immune.
Ah yes. If you can't argue on facts, argue on rhetoric. Great tactic, can't think of a time when that has ever failed.
Actually I don't run Kubuntu. I just installed it on a spare partition to see what it was like. Hence the reference to "other one". The word "other" in this case, referring to not my main machine, the results of which I already posted.
I'm not entirely sure why I'm posting this, your name, sig, and karma would indicate you are nothing but a petty troll.
Oh no! My linux skillz have been mocked by the "UN1XG0D"!! Whatever shall I do? Perhaps I should set my bash prompt to "CIA-T0P_S3CR3TS!" Man.. That would be so cool.
Sigh.. Actually I do know how to change it, I just don't care. Also, I find it funny that "grep vmlinuz" qualifies as having mastered grep. Lemme just update my resume.
Do you seriously believe that I have doctored the output of ls -l to prove some completely random person wrong that I don't even know?
Anyway. Here's another one. Stock 2.6.10 kernel from a fresh Kubuntu 5.04 install weighs in at less than 1.2MB. Like another poster said, it also depends what you have compiled as modules.
Yes, he is indeed "shitting" you. Those are not the requirements for longhorn. I think the latest recommended specs being bandied about are 3GHz with 512MB RAM. But Microsoft has not said anything concrete in this respect.
You are doing something wrong. Stock 2.4 kernel is 1.2MB here, and my compiled 2.6.9 is 1.1MB. And I certainly didn't spend much time trying to strip out features.
That's fine, but he has a point. How much actual real-world good does that do? It does plenty of theoretical good, but so does making the speed limit 10 MPH. By far the better solution is to make sure that the system is safe from remote attacks.
Let's not kid ourselves and think we can do this.
That sounds like a workaround to make up for a design flaw in the command-line interface to me.
How exactly is that a flaw in the CLI? Arguably a flaw in the permission model that it will let you destroy your system with no complaint, but it's not the CLI's fault. Doing the same from a graphical file manager will destroy your system too.
I don't know the first thing about spyware or Active X or Windows, so I certainly don't care.
If you don't know anything about it, why are you dismissing the idea? The GP is saying that if windows users ran as non-administrator, it would be far easier to rescue a spyware ridden windows installation since the core system files would not be corruptable. This is exactly the same issue that this story is about.
Well, fortunately you're not making the decisions. The "users should have to learn" mentality is what keeps computers complicated and difficult to use.
Ever used OS X? People don't seem to think that's too hard to use. And anyway, the argument that "users shouldn't have to learn" is not entirely correct either. Any reasonably complex device takes some learning. Cars require extensive training to operate, and yet they aren't capable of nearly as many different tasks as computers are.
I think you'd have a hard time convincing anybody that things like "rm -Rf/" and "users SHOULD learn" and "limit the login / password for my MySQL account to only allow row INSERTs and SELECTs" and "home directory chmodded to 700" is the best of anything.
What are you talking about? No-one is suggesting that users learn that. I'd advise you to re-read the GP post.
As has been mentioned in the past, even Windows is going towards a security model where normal user will not run as administrator. Going the opposite way has been proven to be a bad idea by Microsoft.
Have a look at HandVu for something that works right now.
I was planning on writing something similar to this (actually, very similar, same libraries and everything) but now may just build on top of the HandVu libraries instead.
More importantly, why would the requirements be so high? So far, there have been no major features announced for Longhorn that aren't already in OS X. OS X can run on something as crappy as this 500MHz iBook that I have beside me (not fast, but it's usable).
So what exactly is Longhorn going to be doing with all that processing power? I'm genuinely curious here, not trolling. I suspect Microsoft is going to pull a major, unannounced feature out of their sleeves at the last minute.
Wow, we have very different definitions of biting someone's head off. Well I apologize if I offended your delicate sensibilities.
I did check on google, like I said, and it is reasonably easy to find.
A needle in a haystack is not a good answer, a volkswagen in a haystack is fine.
I'm looking for a definitive answer from the Debian leadership
I would like a definitive answer from George Bush about why he invaded iraq. What you want and what is realistic seemes to be different things.
-- all I could find ws some email posts from people who, until this morning, were complete strangers. Should I trust "Joe Schmoe" when he says x.org will be included after the Sarge release?
Yes! Especialy if this Joe Schmoe is on the debian developers mailing list! Christ, it's not like this is a life or death situation where you must be absolutely sure of the credentials of your sources.
That "other FAQ" you mention is entitled "Debian X Window System Frequently Asked Questions". How much clearer can you get? Of course you can trust that source, who the hell makes that kind of shit up for fun?
Slashdot Mirror
This is great news. The more people using KHTML based browsers the better for website compatibility. I think having 3 browser engines around with non-insignificant market share would be great.
I just replaced my desktop with a laptop. Why bother with a bulky desktop when I can get a fast, luggable laptop for cheap? With the proliferation of wireless access points, I can go just about anywhere and get the internet. There's not much point in having a desktop at home when I'm not there more than half of the time.
By the way, the Compaq R4000 series is a wicked deal if you're looking for a desktop replacement.
WHOA! Didnt see that one coming!
When will you realize that the complaint was NEVER about how Apple is not doing enough. The KHTML guys accepted that because Apple was complying with the GPL.
The KHTML guys were complaining about people like YOU that lay blame on them for not implementing some of the patches from webcore. It was explained that not all patches can be merged because they are extremely obtuse, referring to bugs that the KHTML guys had no access to. When you get a huge patch with a commment that says "Fixes issue #1239837" and you have no idea what that issue is, then its pretty hard to decide whether that issue applies to your codebase or not.
Christ, I can't believe how many idiots like you still haven't figured out what the commotion was all about, and insist on blaming the KDE guys for whining.
Are you saying you have no way to get high res CRTs anymore? I somehow don't believe that. The medical market is pretty big and profitable, I hardly think vendors would completely drop CRTs if there is no replacement available yet.
You make a baseless claim. You have no idea if they will chose Windows XP or Linux. I think if both are properly installed on the hardware, it would be a toss up.
Of course if you assume that these users have prior experience with Windows, they would probably choose Windows, but then the comparison is useless.
Yes! Great comment.. Actually I've run into people that gave up on OO.o for those very reasons.
I was talking to someone that was frantic that she couldn't spellcheck her essay because she only had wordpad. So I pointed her towards Openoffice and gave her the download link. It downloaded the self extracting zip, which extracted by default into some crazy directory under Documents and Settings\Administrator\Local Files or whatever. So the report I got (this was over IM) was, "I hit extract and it did some stuff for a long time and then nothing".
So it extracted the zip to some temporary folder god knows where, and then didn't launch the setup utility. How is a new user supposed to understand that?
So I gave up and just spellchecked the document for her and sent it back.
If you are still interested in Linux, you should check out the mailing list I linked to. Many people have had success with the R3000 and Linux. There may be some fiddling necessary unfortunately.
The biggest problem with the R4000 is the video card, but the R3000 has an NVidia card which works quite well.
Thanks for your advice.. I'll try it out. I've been holding off using the vesa driver because it only does 1024x768 which makes the display quite fuzzy since the LCD has to interpolate stuff. At least that's what the Suse 9.3 Live DVD did. It looked ok but definitely not optimal.
I'm hoping ATI will fix their drivers soon.
You're right that Linux supports more hardware in total. Unfortunately, what everyone sees is that it doesn't support the gadget they just bought. And that's what it's all about. Sure their linux box supports a million other devices, but if it doesn't support the one they just got, then the perception is that Linux hardware support is inferior to Windows.
And they are perfectly correct in saying this. Now this isn't Linux's fault, but the bottom line remains the same.
I just bought a R4000 from Compaq (R4025CA to be exact) and am having the same issues. Kubuntu is the only linux that correctly set up the display to 1280x800 but it crashes as soon as you login. The proprietary ATI drivers state support fro the video chipset (Radeon Express 200M) but there appears to be some bug there yet. New drivers just got released, so maybe I'll try to get those working.
The wireless card should work with ndiswrapper.
I'm not sure about the sound card.. I tried the Suse 9.3 Live DVD and it didn't recognize the sound card at all, although I've heard it should be supported in Alsa.
If you are interested, there is a mailing list devoted specifically to getting linux running on this line of laptops.. It's called R3000, but there is some discussion starting on the R4000, which has the basically the same hardware as your ZV6000.
Here's the link.
So far I've just been using Windows on this laptop, I haven't had the time to beat linux into shape on it.. Which is too bad, I find I'm missing all the cool things in linux that I've gotten used to over the past 3-4 years using it on my desktop. But I don't regret getting this laptop, it was a really sweet deal. Athlon 64 3200+, 1GB RAM, 80GB HDD, Dual layer DVD Burner, Integrated 802.11g, 1280x800 widescreen, and the Radeon Express 200M has its own dedicated memory, supports DX9, and plays the recent games well enough for me. All for $1499 canadian.
It's not about what we need. It's about what people will buy.
If the bottom line is that you don't need it, then don't use it. I can never understand people complaining about technology they think is useless. Exactly what impact does it have on your life if they make a microwave with 100 power levels?
I'll tell you, NONE. But for the dude around the corner, it's what he's been looking for, and more importantly, what he'll shell out a couple bills for.
Concerning the song identification, I think it's pretty neat. My cell phone carrier, Fido, has had this for quite some time (#DJ) and it works impressively well. Musicbrainz is similar for tagging MP3s, but I haven't had much success with it. It quite often misidentifies songs. What I really want is some sort of program that you could run that performs the analysis on whatever is being put out on the soundcard and then tries to guess the song title from that. Now that would be cool for figuring out the title of songs streamed from the internet, or in movies.
Bullshit. If that's considered a dumb mistake, then 30%-50% of college students make the same mistake all the time. You think if the guy is a couple months older than his girlfriend, they're going to stop having sex when he turns 18?
This does not fall under a stupid mistake.. It's a retarded law that was excercised because of a hysterical mother somewhere.
It doesn't matter what Windows developers do. The point is OS-neutral.
Did you even read my post? That's what I'm saying. The GP was pointing out these issues like they are unique to Linux, when they are common to every OS ever made.
Yes, a server crashing is a bug no matter what the circumstances are. I'm not saying it isn't. I'm saying there is a work to benefit ratio for every bug out there, and for some reason it is just not worth the fix. For example, in a few specific circumstances a bug manifests itself, but fixing it would have some detrimental side effects for the majority of users, so it may not be worth fixing.
Not every bug can be fixed, and that's ok. It's not like developers are refusing to fix it because "windows is buggy too".
But if it claimed to run on every *nix and it didn't work on a SGI, then that is a bug. Period.
And bugs in software are news to you? It sounds like the Gaim guys accepted the patch that the GP submitted. A bug is found, and it is fixed by someone that notices it and has the skills to do it, business as usual.
Sorry about the boldface, but this attitude pisses me off.
I know slashdotters love to slot posts into either the "windows fanboy" or "open source zealot" category, but my post is certainly not in either of them.
I asked Alan Cox about it (via irc) and the response was "buy more memory". Nice.
You're saying Microsoft will fix every bug that gets reported? Perhaps this is a corner case that doesn't happen in many situations but would be tough to fix. Or perhaps Alan is right. If you are regularly running out of memory on your webserver, it's time to beef it up a little.
There is no way anybody had ever used Gaim on an SGI without making these fixes, so it seems reasonable to suggest the authors had never tried it before.
Of course. Don't tell me that every program written by Joe Developer on Windows has been tested to run on 95/98/98SE/Me/2000/XP with every combination of service pack. Such is the reality of limited resources.
It seems reasonable from this experience that nobody had bothered testing what the UDMA code in openBSD would do with 2 drives on the same bus both being exercised.. otherwise they'd have seen the DMA errors on the console.
Yes. This is unfortunate, but hardly surprising.. Once again, limited resources. Not everyone can afford to test on thousands of different combinations of hardware.
Then there was the issue around the oBSD 2.6 timeframe where the console would sleep and never, ever wake back up.
And then there was the issue around Windows XP where the entire system would crash if I tried to exit the VS.NET debugger while my code was driving the firewire camera. Great, bugs exist, even severe ones. No OS is immune.
The shop never closes, on Christmas day there is a million CVS checkins around the globe.
;)
And on Valentine's Day, there are a billion.
Ah yes. If you can't argue on facts, argue on rhetoric. Great tactic, can't think of a time when that has ever failed.
Actually I don't run Kubuntu. I just installed it on a spare partition to see what it was like. Hence the reference to "other one". The word "other" in this case, referring to not my main machine, the results of which I already posted.
I'm not entirely sure why I'm posting this, your name, sig, and karma would indicate you are nothing but a petty troll.
Oh no! My linux skillz have been mocked by the "UN1XG0D"!! Whatever shall I do?
Perhaps I should set my bash prompt to "CIA-T0P_S3CR3TS!" Man.. That would be so cool.
Sigh.. Actually I do know how to change it, I just don't care. Also, I find it funny that "grep vmlinuz" qualifies as having mastered grep. Lemme just update my resume.
Do you seriously believe that I have doctored the output of ls -l to prove some completely random person wrong that I don't even know?
Anyway. Here's another one. Stock 2.6.10 kernel from a fresh Kubuntu 5.04 install weighs in at less than 1.2MB. Like another poster said, it also depends what you have compiled as modules.
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 1188342 2005-04-05 06:40 vmlinuz-2.6.10-5-386
Yes, he is indeed "shitting" you. Those are not the requirements for longhorn. I think the latest recommended specs being bandied about are 3GHz with 512MB RAM. But Microsoft has not said anything concrete in this respect.
sh-2.05b$ ls -l | grep vmlinuz
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 1263339 2002-10-22 04:11 vmlinuz-2.4.18-bf2.4
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 1126770 2004-10-29 22:25 vmlinuz-2.6.9.2
You are doing something wrong. Stock 2.4 kernel is 1.2MB here, and my compiled 2.6.9 is 1.1MB. And I certainly didn't spend much time trying to strip out features.
That's fine, but he has a point. How much actual real-world good does that do? It does plenty of theoretical good, but so does making the speed limit 10 MPH. By far the better solution is to make sure that the system is safe from remote attacks.
/" and "users SHOULD learn" and "limit the login / password for my MySQL account to only allow row INSERTs and SELECTs" and "home directory chmodded to 700" is the best of anything.
Let's not kid ourselves and think we can do this.
That sounds like a workaround to make up for a design flaw in the command-line interface to me.
How exactly is that a flaw in the CLI? Arguably a flaw in the permission model that it will let you destroy your system with no complaint, but it's not the CLI's fault. Doing the same from a graphical file manager will destroy your system too.
I don't know the first thing about spyware or Active X or Windows, so I certainly don't care.
If you don't know anything about it, why are you dismissing the idea? The GP is saying that if windows users ran as non-administrator, it would be far easier to rescue a spyware ridden windows installation since the core system files would not be corruptable. This is exactly the same issue that this story is about.
Well, fortunately you're not making the decisions. The "users should have to learn" mentality is what keeps computers complicated and difficult to use.
Ever used OS X? People don't seem to think that's too hard to use. And anyway, the argument that "users shouldn't have to learn" is not entirely correct either. Any reasonably complex device takes some learning. Cars require extensive training to operate, and yet they aren't capable of nearly as many different tasks as computers are.
I think you'd have a hard time convincing anybody that things like "rm -Rf
What are you talking about? No-one is suggesting that users learn that. I'd advise you to re-read the GP post.
As has been mentioned in the past, even Windows is going towards a security model where normal user will not run as administrator. Going the opposite way has been proven to be a bad idea by Microsoft.
Have a look at HandVu for something that works right now.
I was planning on writing something similar to this (actually, very similar, same libraries and everything) but now may just build on top of the HandVu libraries instead.
More importantly, why would the requirements be so high? So far, there have been no major features announced for Longhorn that aren't already in OS X. OS X can run on something as crappy as this 500MHz iBook that I have beside me (not fast, but it's usable).
So what exactly is Longhorn going to be doing with all that processing power? I'm genuinely curious here, not trolling. I suspect Microsoft is going to pull a major, unannounced feature out of their sleeves at the last minute.
You called my questions "stupid" and "trivial".
Wow, we have very different definitions of biting someone's head off. Well I apologize if I offended your delicate sensibilities.
I did check on google, like I said, and it is reasonably easy to find.
A needle in a haystack is not a good answer, a volkswagen in a haystack is fine.
I'm looking for a definitive answer from the Debian leadership
I would like a definitive answer from George Bush about why he invaded iraq. What you want and what is realistic seemes to be different things.
-- all I could find ws some email posts from people who, until this morning, were complete strangers. Should I trust "Joe Schmoe" when he says x.org will be included after the Sarge release?
Yes! Especialy if this Joe Schmoe is on the debian developers mailing list! Christ, it's not like this is a life or death situation where you must be absolutely sure of the credentials of your sources.
That "other FAQ" you mention is entitled "Debian X Window System Frequently Asked Questions". How much clearer can you get? Of course you can trust that source, who the hell makes that kind of shit up for fun?
Correction: Debian X FAQ.