Re:Coordinated Efforts
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In case you didn't catch the first part of his post: in this case, it's an act of war. (IIRC, it was the president who declared it such.) In McVeigh's, it wasn't.
What makes for "an act of war"? Reminds me of a riddle of A. Lincoln's:
Q: If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have?
A: Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg.
So what nation is making war on us?
Re:It's been said before...
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As much as I repect the wisdom of our founding fathers, I respectfully submit that spouting 200 year old quotes about liberty is not helpful or applicable in the least.
So is liberty no longer an inalienable right? Does that go for life, too?
Re:Coordinated Efforts
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By extension if it's an individual that's responsible rather than a government, you can simply send an assassin after him rather than go for a trial.
So why didn't we just assassinate McVeigh straight out, instead of going through the formality of a trial?
AFAIK the current five pillars of Islam (Faith, Prayer, Zakat, Fasting and Pilgramage) were originally six - the sixth being war. Depends upon how moderate a person you ask. The real nutters think that this is cool - in fact dying in battle, you go to heaven and get something like 70 virgins to have your way with (doesn't say whether they swallow).
Did these six pillars come from the Koran? Where does the idea of jihad come from?
Re:What the hell do you expect?
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These are conditions that have only existed in states under seige such as Israel (it is stardard policy for all ElAl flights to include at least one trained marksman).
It's looking more and more like Israel is one huge ball and chain from which we should cut loose. Now our unconditional support of Israel has dragged us into the war zone--we are on the fringe of a state of siege. I say pull the plug on our support.
I guess most Americans are simply unaware of that history.
I trust the establishment historians to be the keepers of the flame of history. Low-level peons like me have no business trying to grasp such things. I just want to be protected by Big Brother. I love Big Brother! Baaaa! Baaaa!
Re:my favourite civil liberty is...
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...life
The founders of the US identified "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" as _inalienable rights_. Since liberty is one of them, losing it is a _major_ loss. Patrick Henry, great Virginian: "Give me liberty or give me death." Liberty was and still is worth dying for, to many.
Re:And here comes Carnivore...
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Freedom isn't free. We must all be willing to pledge our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor in defense of Liberty. Any enemy, foreign or domestic, who attempts to deprive us of our freedom and liberty deserves no mercy.
I seriously doubt that any Middle Eastern nation is about to invade and occupy and run the USA. The greatest threat to our liberty is in Washington, D.C. You can see that it works like a hyperactive immune system: there is an incident, a threat, and our own Government reduces liberty to defend it.
Re:An interesting commentary
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It's old, has some good points, but the characterization of Technological Prowess as some moral virtue is ridiculous.
Yes. The United States has been pushing people around and generally being a nuisance to the Middle East for nigh on 50 years now. The US is very big, and very strong, and they are very small and very weak. We have B-52 Stratofortresses and they have rifles and Molotov cocktails.
Your whole post was extremely well-written and -thought. Thank you.
Here's an alternative viewpoint: we are in the same boat as Israel now. Interesting article elaborating on this is here (Antiwar.com). Just blasting everybody will spawn more hatred of the US, because we do a pretty lousy job of limiting collateral damage. Witness the moonscape that used to be Iraq.
An act of war has been committed against the United States. Worse than that, it was an attack against innocent civilians.
I agree they were innocent (I am an adherent of Just War theory), but today's warmakers don't believe in "innocent" civilians. Witness our turning Iraq into a moonscape, and our destruction of Serbia's civilian infrastructure. Who suffers? Innocent civilians, but even US military leaders do it.
OUr entry into WWII was one of those responses. That solved a lot.
Solved one problem, opened another, bigger can of worms: Soviet domination of Eastern Europe. Let's do a quick tally: The Baltic states (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania), Poland, East Germany, Hungaria, Rumania, Czeckoslovakia, Albania. Did I miss any? Oh, Yugoslavia. 45 Years total under the Boot. Big Problem, and it was Roosevelt that sold them all out at Yalta in February, 1945. What an evil weenie.
If ever there were justification for retaliation, this is it. I'm not advocating a witchunt by any means, but retribution is required, and will be demanded.
No, not a witch hunt, but a calm, calculated, painful, extirmination.
wanna bet we get a suspension of our
"inalienable" rights?????
"Inalienable" means that these rights cannot _legitimately_ be taken away; any restriction on these rights is by definition illegitimate, and resistance to their limitation is legitimate. It is the natural created order of things. (Practically speaking, if a government takes away your rights, they're gone, kiss your bum goodbye!) This was the moral justification for rebellion against England in 1776.
But yes, we will probably find some more restrictions of our liberties, and an increase in our overseas meddling. All lovers of liberty should be concerned (it is not selfish to be so concerned). War is the health of the state, and the state just got a boost.
As an interesting aside, days like this are something that our NSA and CIA are here to prevent.
What's so sad and bad is that it seems that some of the terrorists got their start from the CIA (say it with me: "Osama Bin Laden"). The CIA is a wretched, hideous organization that no liberty-loving republic should tolerate. BTW, did you know that William F. Buckley once worked for the CIA?
When a country is known for harboring corporations that are thugs on the world stage people are going to be pissed off. When a country uses use deadly (military) force in foreign policy to promote and protect these corporations you are going to have response in kind.
Absolutely. I read antiwar.com on a regular basis, and it's enlightening. What is interesting is that if these terrorists think that this will make the US mind its own business, they can fugeddaboutit. This will make the US as mad as a hornet, and you can bet the retribution will be broad and deep and long.
Somewhat like Glenn Gould (look here), who make a big splash in the 50's with his performance of Bach's "Goldberg Variations" (I'm sure Fischer would find a Jewish influence in there...). His performance is hailed almost universally as pure musical genius. He was, however, somewhat eccentric.
Re:Al Gore, an intellect by all accounts? I disagr
on
Bobby Fischer Online?
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Just like Thomas Jefferson, who had a well known fear of public speaking? Boy, *that* guy was a moron!
I think, when all is said and done, when you stack up Jefferson's writings against _Earth in the Balance_, history will conclude that Al Gore was some monstrous freak who emerged from the soup of Love Canal.
The real reason, in my opinion, is because the media has a very definite liberal bias and because Bush is not impressive intellectually.
Or maybe Gore's just smarter than all the run-of-the-mill mediots? His environmental wonkishness (is that a real word?, and his access to the halls of power, puts them in thrall to him.
Gosh, A sane person on slashdot, is that really possible?
The inmates are running the place. If you are sane, you go insane. Which reminds me of Nikolai Gogol, a Russian author from the mid-19th century. His _Diary of a Madman_ is a classic (it's a short story). The narrator is insane but everything comes across quite rationally and logically, even though his content is quite ridiculous. Also, _The Overcoat_ is good dark fun.
Slashdot Mirror
What makes for "an act of war"? Reminds me of a riddle of A. Lincoln's:
Q: If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have?
A: Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg.
So what nation is making war on us?
As much as I repect the wisdom of our founding fathers, I respectfully submit that spouting 200 year old quotes about liberty is not helpful or applicable in the least.
So is liberty no longer an inalienable right? Does that go for life, too?
So why didn't we just assassinate McVeigh straight out, instead of going through the formality of a trial?
Did these six pillars come from the Koran? Where does the idea of jihad come from?
It's looking more and more like Israel is one huge ball and chain from which we should cut loose. Now our unconditional support of Israel has dragged us into the war zone--we are on the fringe of a state of siege. I say pull the plug on our support.
I trust the establishment historians to be the keepers of the flame of history. Low-level peons like me have no business trying to grasp such things. I just want to be protected by Big Brother. I love Big Brother! Baaaa! Baaaa!
The founders of the US identified "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" as _inalienable rights_. Since liberty is one of them, losing it is a _major_ loss. Patrick Henry, great Virginian: "Give me liberty or give me death." Liberty was and still is worth dying for, to many.
I seriously doubt that any Middle Eastern nation is about to invade and occupy and run the USA. The greatest threat to our liberty is in Washington, D.C. You can see that it works like a hyperactive immune system: there is an incident, a threat, and our own Government reduces liberty to defend it.
It's old, has some good points, but the characterization of Technological Prowess as some moral virtue is ridiculous.
Your whole post was extremely well-written and -thought. Thank you.
Here's an alternative viewpoint: we are in the same boat as Israel now. Interesting article elaborating on this is here (Antiwar.com). Just blasting everybody will spawn more hatred of the US, because we do a pretty lousy job of limiting collateral damage. Witness the moonscape that used to be Iraq.
This was not insane or illogical, but FLAT OUT EVIL! Can you not distinguish between right and wrong?
I agree they were innocent (I am an adherent of Just War theory), but today's warmakers don't believe in "innocent" civilians. Witness our turning Iraq into a moonscape, and our destruction of Serbia's civilian infrastructure. Who suffers? Innocent civilians, but even US military leaders do it.
Solved one problem, opened another, bigger can of worms: Soviet domination of Eastern Europe. Let's do a quick tally: The Baltic states (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania), Poland, East Germany, Hungaria, Rumania, Czeckoslovakia, Albania. Did I miss any? Oh, Yugoslavia. 45 Years total under the Boot. Big Problem, and it was Roosevelt that sold them all out at Yalta in February, 1945. What an evil weenie.
No, not a witch hunt, but a calm, calculated, painful, extirmination.
"inalienable" rights?????
"Inalienable" means that these rights cannot _legitimately_ be taken away; any restriction on these rights is by definition illegitimate, and resistance to their limitation is legitimate. It is the natural created order of things. (Practically speaking, if a government takes away your rights, they're gone, kiss your bum goodbye!) This was the moral justification for rebellion against England in 1776.
But yes, we will probably find some more restrictions of our liberties, and an increase in our overseas meddling. All lovers of liberty should be concerned (it is not selfish to be so concerned). War is the health of the state, and the state just got a boost.
Tip to Dubya: they're in the wreckage.
What's so sad and bad is that it seems that some of the terrorists got their start from the CIA (say it with me: "Osama Bin Laden"). The CIA is a wretched, hideous organization that no liberty-loving republic should tolerate. BTW, did you know that William F. Buckley once worked for the CIA?
Absolutely. I read antiwar.com on a regular basis, and it's enlightening. What is interesting is that if these terrorists think that this will make the US mind its own business, they can fugeddaboutit. This will make the US as mad as a hornet, and you can bet the retribution will be broad and deep and long.
Especially if he's running Linux, and he's typing from a CLI. Things go a lot faster like that than mousing around.
Somewhat like Glenn Gould (look here), who make a big splash in the 50's with his performance of Bach's "Goldberg Variations" (I'm sure Fischer would find a Jewish influence in there...). His performance is hailed almost universally as pure musical genius. He was, however, somewhat eccentric.
I think, when all is said and done, when you stack up Jefferson's writings against _Earth in the Balance_, history will conclude that Al Gore was some monstrous freak who emerged from the soup of Love Canal.
Or maybe Gore's just smarter than all the run-of-the-mill mediots? His environmental wonkishness (is that a real word?, and his access to the halls of power, puts them in thrall to him.
The inmates are running the place. If you are sane, you go insane. Which reminds me of Nikolai Gogol, a Russian author from the mid-19th century. His _Diary of a Madman_ is a classic (it's a short story). The narrator is insane but everything comes across quite rationally and logically, even though his content is quite ridiculous. Also, _The Overcoat_ is good dark fun.
I don't know, "avoiding a lot of trouble with zealots" might be a bullet point in the "pro" column.
I am not a zealot, I just play one on