Dude numbers please. You're giving me anecdotal evidence. I'm guessing you're one of those Athenian Golden Dawn members then. You should actually visit agriculture based cities. I live in Lamia. Most of my friends are in the agriculture business. You could have made that argument a few years ago (and still not be correct), but today illegal immigrants are basically out of a job here. That's because Greeks are taking their low income jobs, not because they are better, but because they are Greeks that are doing their job at the same price illegal immigrants used to do the job for.
It's the same in the US by the way. Illegal immigrants, usually from Latin america take over low income jobs in the US too. That's not because "Americans are lazy". You have to really understand why an illegal immigrant is selling his work that low. It has everything to do with him seeing his pay tripled compared to say Albania..See how frowned upon H1B visas are here on Slashdot.. That's not because "Americans are lazy", but it's because corporations use it as a way to drive down costs in the workforce, ignoring the standard of living in the US.
Your heart is in the right place, but the GD is using it against you. You should be proud of your nation. But right now, you're in danger of becoming your nation's disgrace. Just ask the Germans you eagerly agree with about their Nazi history. Germans (the people, not the leadership) are hard working and good people. I do not believe for an instance that their politics in the world wars had anything to do with their people being evil or the sort. It does have everything to do with economy and bad leadership though.
Greece is living Germany's pre world war days. It's sad their media has such a twisted agenda.
I live in greece at the moment, but I'm a dual citizen. Both Greek and American.
What you call "Othomanic ways", in Greece is called "ragiadismos". It's a state of self-pity that I really never understood. And it's something easily played against your critical thinking if you choose to accept it. I really do not care for it, nor am I going to acknowledge such a false stereotype. So don't waste your time trying to talk me into it.
The way you can persuade me is with facts and numbers.
This is enough to lay waste to your theory about "Lazy" Greeks/ You can make the case of richer countries being more productive, sure that's normal. But lazy? No.
Krugman is a liberal. Primary surplus means nothing with the size of the debt on us. You can buy into the misinformation if you please. But to persuade me, you will need to show me numbers.
This. Today Spain's Podemos won in local elections. Spain is often portrayed as an example of an austerity "win", but it seems the people do not agree. =)
The only problem with your argument is that Austerity flat out never worked. Unemployment didn't fall, no major investments worth note etc. Running a surplus means nothing if you don't open up government spending. But even if you disagree with classic economics, the fact of the matter still remains, no benefits from austerity worth note.
I'm greek-american living in Greece and anything but communist... But declaring that austerity worked, is ludicrous.
Germany's austerity measures have proven time and time again that they do not work. And it's not a matter of corruption, or public spending, or lazy Greeks and ouzo. It's a matter of austerity in a depression being a big no-no in economics.
Yeah, exactly. I'm Greek-American living in Greece at the moment, so I tend to compare the USA with the EU a lot. You're right, the EU is actually on whole pretty cool, like competition laws. But this lack of a working federal backbone is a fatal flaw and I'm unlucky enough to live in the country where hell broke loose. If they can't find a way to solve this problem as a whole, it looks like I'll be returning to the States soon.
In the same way German misinformation is necessary in order to hide the fact that what they're asking from the Greek people is something they themselves would revolt against if the tables were turned. Austerity measures to repay interest on bank bail outs... We both know no one in Greece is asking for a handout. Ask any German and they genuinely believe we're a bunch of lazy people...
Nah, no need for insults. It's just a matter of principle. I'm Greek - American. We too are misinformed a lot, not just the Germans. And a lot of that misinformation is aimed at us fearing a Greek exit. I'm all for a Europe as it was originally conceived. But we need it to be a federation for it to actually work. Austerity really doesn't help at all. Austerity is the problem right now, and that is pretty much fact. Anyway, I respect your opinion as you have respected mine. Kalo sou vradi!
Dude, we should just default already. No point in pointing out misinformation. The very basis of a European union is peace through common prosperity. They're already undermining this for cheap political benefit. They believe they're better off without Greece, I believe we're better off without pretending this union is anything but a farce. Why do you think the Brits never got in? I say call it as it is and get the hell out... Sure it'll be hard, but we don't exactly have a rosy alternative.
"The great bulk of the money lent to Greece has been used simply to pay interest and principal on debt."
I'm not going to defend the government that got us in the euro by cooking the books. That party is pretty much non existent now cause of its colossal blunder. Nor was I ever aware that such a game was being played. I'll just point you to Paul Krugman on the issue of morality.
No point in pretending there is unity between people of the European Nations and such. Germany pretty much only cares about making an example of the Greek people, painting us as non-working jerks and the sort, when we actually work more than Germans in absolute hours for a lot less pay. I'm just tired of this bullshit. Let's default and lenders get nothing, Greece gets a new start in a weaker economy. I'm pretty sure the EU will fall apart, not out of spite, but exactly because there is no mechanism designed to work out these types of crisis.No federal political ties. Detroit filed for bankruptcy. No one is booting it out of the US:p
Ontopic: Britain is pretty wise of being skeptics.
I do not want your money, nor do I want anything to do with your country, or your self-righteous media's opinion. =) I'm in favor of Greece leaving the EU, just like you are. No reason for hostility.
I'm with anonymous_braveguy on this one. Economic unity without a federal political backbone is just a failed experiment. I firmly believe when we leave Portugal or Italy will be next, but at this point I really do not care.
I'm Greek and I also favor a Greek Exit. There's no point in being in this farse of an economic union. The only country that seems to benefit is Germany. We should just default and let the ECB and the other EU Nations absorb the debt we have incurred over the years, in order to save the EU banking system. It looks like Germany believes this won't be a problem for the EU these days, like Italy, Spain or Portugal being up next, I highly doubt that, but to be honest I really don't care.
The Brits are looking pretty smart right now, not getting into the economic part of the union, from the get-go. Good for them.
I don't know about those provinces and the history of them so I don't have an honest opinion. But, the case here is that FYROM is claiming a macedonian nationality. This would complicate things when you already have 1.000.000 people in your country calling themeselves macedonians and claiming they are Descendants of Alexander, yet beleive their ancestors where Greek and have nothing to do with FYROM. So recognizing A "Republic of Macedonia", is telling these people that either they are not "macedonian" or they have something to do with FYROM. The recent US State department's statement of a "macedonian minority" in Greece just complicates the matter. To be fair, there are people from FYROM living in Greece (i guess), but I doubt they are even 1.000 in number. But you see how this can get complicated. (Like when you say macedonian minority, what exactly are you talking about? Both sides call themeselves macedonians..). The "North" part of the proposed name would determine them geographically and let history be what historians make of it. And generally speaking, let each side beleive what it wants...
I personally think both countries are caught up in other's geopolitical games. But that's just my opinion. Greece is heavily investing in FYROM so the ground of a good relationship is their. We just have to stop trying to relate everything with history which you can interpretate as you like and find a solution that benefits both sides...
The inhabitants of the Balkans maintain the same general set of genes that other Europeans share, even definitely autochthonous peoples like the Basques. That is how we know that invaders e.g. the Indo-Europeans were minorities compared to the peoples who eventually adopted their language. One of the big sea changes in archaeology over the past few decades is a recognition that there were no truly large population shifts in recent antiquity. So, we can honestly claim that the inhabitants of Macedonia today are, excepting the Roma, Jews, and occasional Turks who trickled in, the same people as a couple of thousand years ago.
I consider this a myopic view when you consider we are talking about _national_ claims in a small region such as Macedonia is. The borders in this region have changed over and over in recent history only, so claiming pure _nationality_ is really funny. Even so, this means that the 1.000.000 Greek Macedonians are also descendents of the inhabitants who lived there thousands of years ago. Beleive me they beleive that their ancestors where Greeks. The problem is that FYROM wants Greece and Bulgaria to recognize a Macedonian Nationality that lies north and west of their borders, while there are people in their country already who call themeselves Macedonians but have nothing to do with FYROM. As you can see this is a potentially dangerous problem. Knowing the Balkans, one that can bring it to war again. Bulgaria has taken a Pontius Pilate approach to this, recognizing FYROM but explictly NOT recognizing a macedonian nationality. History aside, naming FYROM "Republic of Macedonia" is dangerous. Greece proposed "North Macedonia" which is a step back from its first claims and also is perfectly fair for both sides. The people of FYROM could beleive what they want and so can Macedonians in Greece and Bulgaria. But FYROM rejected this. So I'm calling BS on people saying "Greek Nationalism" at this point in time because it simply isn't true for the majority of Greeks. Let's leave history aside (history is the best way to start a war because it can be interpeted any way you like) and find a way out of this mess...
Wrong. The region that was identified by the ancients as Macedonia is currently split between Greece, the Republic of Macedonia, and Bulgaria. Yes, a large part is in Greece, but not all.
True.
Wrong as well. When the Slavs invaded, they were a minority who seized power and slowly imposed their language on the majority. The people living in the Balkans today are the descendents of the inhabitants who lived there thousands of years ago.
Funny. Knowing the population shifts that occured in the years up to today, no one can honestly claim that they are the true descendents of the inhabitants who lived there thousands of years ago. Same for the Greek Macedonians. This is why Greece is proposing "North Macedonia" to FYROM. A geographical clause to its name. But, FYROM rejects this and claims exclsiveness to anything Macedonia. This is first of all dangerous, second of all unfair to Greek-Macedonians and Bulgarian-Macedonians and third hevily questionable by history. There have been errors by the Greek side, especially the nationalist outbreak in 1992 if I remember correctly. But, as it is today, calling FYROM "Republic of Macedonia" is unfair...
Actually based on the phones monitored (besides the Greek officials), you have your high profile anarchists, some arabian business men if I recall right, and a phone or two in the US Embassy. It's obviously in US interests to tap those phones. Even the US Embassy phones could be explained: to monitor possible 'corruption' of US officials. Recently there was an issue of arabian citizens kidnapped by UK authorities for questioning on Greek soil. I'm not saying it was definitely CIA hands down, we don't know all the facts yet and that kind of conclusion is immature at this time. I could buy them being framed by organized crime, because anti-americanism is at its high around the world. But facts are, things are looking bad for them right now...
You're probably right (I know nothing about telephone switches). That is what most experts are saying here also. Which brings us to the next interesting fact. A day before the whole thing went public, a vodafone employe, the one in charge of the department commited suicide. Vodafone says this has nothing to do with the taps. People who knew the guy, said he was concerned about some issues at his job, but surely he wasn't suicidal. This brings a hollywood like turn in the whole story. I'm guessing organized crime. But the list of people being monitored doesn't reveal this clearly...
I'm currently in Greece right now. What they officialy announced was that malicious code triggered a feature of the Ericsson systems Vodafone is using that "duplexes" phone calls. This feature is disabled in Greece by default (or should be anyway) because it is illegal. What is being heavily debated over right now is this: Once Vodafone's administrators found out about the malicious code and the whole illegal setup, they immediantly shut it down, hindering the task of finding the location of the 14 numbers almost impossible. So the question is, if you where in the Vodafone administrator's shoes, would you immediantly shutdown the obviously illegal code, or inform the police before taking action about it?
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Dude numbers please. You're giving me anecdotal evidence. I'm guessing you're one of those Athenian Golden Dawn members then. You should actually visit agriculture based cities. I live in Lamia. Most of my friends are in the agriculture business. You could have made that argument a few years ago (and still not be correct), but today illegal immigrants are basically out of a job here. That's because Greeks are taking their low income jobs, not because they are better, but because they are Greeks that are doing their job at the same price illegal immigrants used to do the job for.
It's the same in the US by the way. Illegal immigrants, usually from Latin america take over low income jobs in the US too. That's not because "Americans are lazy". You have to really understand why an illegal immigrant is selling his work that low. It has everything to do with him seeing his pay tripled compared to say Albania..See how frowned upon H1B visas are here on Slashdot.. That's not because "Americans are lazy", but it's because corporations use it as a way to drive down costs in the workforce, ignoring the standard of living in the US.
I do not believe in ism's. Ism's in my opinion are not good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
Your heart is in the right place, but the GD is using it against you. You should be proud of your nation. But right now, you're in danger of becoming your nation's disgrace. Just ask the Germans you eagerly agree with about their Nazi history. Germans (the people, not the leadership) are hard working and good people. I do not believe for an instance that their politics in the world wars had anything to do with their people being evil or the sort. It does have everything to do with economy and bad leadership though.
Greece is living Germany's pre world war days. It's sad their media has such a twisted agenda.
I live in greece at the moment, but I'm a dual citizen. Both Greek and American.
What you call "Othomanic ways", in Greece is called "ragiadismos". It's a state of self-pity that I really never understood. And it's something easily played against your critical thinking if you choose to accept it. I really do not care for it, nor am I going to acknowledge such a false stereotype. So don't waste your time trying to talk me into it.
The way you can persuade me is with facts and numbers.
https://www.creditwritedowns.c...
This is enough to lay waste to your theory about "Lazy" Greeks/ You can make the case of richer countries being more productive, sure that's normal. But lazy? No.
Krugman is a liberal. Primary surplus means nothing with the size of the debt on us. You can buy into the misinformation if you please. But to persuade me, you will need to show me numbers.
This. Today Spain's Podemos won in local elections. Spain is often portrayed as an example of an austerity "win", but it seems the people do not agree. =)
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-...
Well it looks like we'll soon test your theory. Pray you're right, cause I sure as hell see no evidence of it. =)
The only problem with your argument is that Austerity flat out never worked. Unemployment didn't fall, no major investments worth note etc. Running a surplus means nothing if you don't open up government spending. But even if you disagree with classic economics, the fact of the matter still remains, no benefits from austerity worth note.
I'm greek-american living in Greece and anything but communist... But declaring that austerity worked, is ludicrous.
Why not? If you have any information I lack, I would love to be proven wrong. Isn't that the purpose of dialog?
Here are a few data points to prove my point. Austerity in Ireland and Portugal compared to Greece:
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.c...
And Greece compared to Germany (1913-1920)
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.c...
Germany's austerity measures have proven time and time again that they do not work. And it's not a matter of corruption, or public spending, or lazy Greeks and ouzo. It's a matter of austerity in a depression being a big no-no in economics.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04...
If you have any interesting data, please share. Else, I purpose you read up on Krugman, he presents a very interesting case.
Yeah, exactly. I'm Greek-American living in Greece at the moment, so I tend to compare the USA with the EU a lot. You're right, the EU is actually on whole pretty cool, like competition laws. But this lack of a working federal backbone is a fatal flaw and I'm unlucky enough to live in the country where hell broke loose. If they can't find a way to solve this problem as a whole, it looks like I'll be returning to the States soon.
In the same way German misinformation is necessary in order to hide the fact that what they're asking from the Greek people is something they themselves would revolt against if the tables were turned. Austerity measures to repay interest on bank bail outs... We both know no one in Greece is asking for a handout. Ask any German and they genuinely believe we're a bunch of lazy people...
Nah, no need for insults. It's just a matter of principle. I'm Greek - American. We too are misinformed a lot, not just the Germans. And a lot of that misinformation is aimed at us fearing a Greek exit. I'm all for a Europe as it was originally conceived. But we need it to be a federation for it to actually work. Austerity really doesn't help at all. Austerity is the problem right now, and that is pretty much fact. Anyway, I respect your opinion as you have respected mine. Kalo sou vradi!
I support this strategy. lulz
Dude, we should just default already. No point in pointing out misinformation. The very basis of a European union is peace through common prosperity. They're already undermining this for cheap political benefit. They believe they're better off without Greece, I believe we're better off without pretending this union is anything but a farce. Why do you think the Brits never got in? I say call it as it is and get the hell out... Sure it'll be hard, but we don't exactly have a rosy alternative.
"The great bulk of the money lent to Greece has been used simply to pay interest and principal on debt."
I'm not going to defend the government that got us in the euro by cooking the books. That party is pretty much non existent now cause of its colossal blunder. Nor was I ever aware that such a game was being played. I'll just point you to Paul Krugman on the issue of morality.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01...
No point in pretending there is unity between people of the European Nations and such. Germany pretty much only cares about making an example of the Greek people, painting us as non-working jerks and the sort, when we actually work more than Germans in absolute hours for a lot less pay. I'm just tired of this bullshit. Let's default and lenders get nothing, Greece gets a new start in a weaker economy. I'm pretty sure the EU will fall apart, not out of spite, but exactly because there is no mechanism designed to work out these types of crisis.No federal political ties. Detroit filed for bankruptcy. No one is booting it out of the US :p
Ontopic: Britain is pretty wise of being skeptics.
I do not want your money, nor do I want anything to do with your country, or your self-righteous media's opinion. =) I'm in favor of Greece leaving the EU, just like you are. No reason for hostility.
Here's a link you might better understand.
http://www.spiegel.de/internat...
I'm with anonymous_braveguy on this one. Economic unity without a federal political backbone is just a failed experiment. I firmly believe when we leave Portugal or Italy will be next, but at this point I really do not care.
Is that so?
http://www.spiegel.de/internat...
I'm Greek and I also favor a Greek Exit. There's no point in being in this farse of an economic union. The only country that seems to benefit is Germany. We should just default and let the ECB and the other EU Nations absorb the debt we have incurred over the years, in order to save the EU banking system. It looks like Germany believes this won't be a problem for the EU these days, like Italy, Spain or Portugal being up next, I highly doubt that, but to be honest I really don't care.
The Brits are looking pretty smart right now, not getting into the economic part of the union, from the get-go. Good for them.
I'm Greek also. While Artemis is more well known as being goddess of hunt and Selene as goddess of the moon, I tend to agree with this comment.
I don't know about those provinces and the history of them so I don't have an honest opinion. But, the case here is that FYROM is claiming a macedonian nationality. This would complicate things when you already have 1.000.000 people in your country calling themeselves macedonians and claiming they are Descendants of Alexander, yet beleive their ancestors where Greek and have nothing to do with FYROM. So recognizing A "Republic of Macedonia", is telling these people that either they are not "macedonian" or they have something to do with FYROM. The recent US State department's statement of a "macedonian minority" in Greece just complicates the matter. To be fair, there are people from FYROM living in Greece (i guess), but I doubt they are even 1.000 in number. But you see how this can get complicated. (Like when you say macedonian minority, what exactly are you talking about? Both sides call themeselves macedonians..). The "North" part of the proposed name would determine them geographically and let history be what historians make of it. And generally speaking, let each side beleive what it wants...
I personally think both countries are caught up in other's geopolitical games. But that's just my opinion. Greece is heavily investing in FYROM so the ground of a good relationship is their. We just have to stop trying to relate everything with history which you can interpretate as you like and find a solution that benefits both sides...
The inhabitants of the Balkans maintain the same general set of genes that other Europeans share, even definitely autochthonous peoples like the Basques. That is how we know that invaders e.g. the Indo-Europeans were minorities compared to the peoples who eventually adopted their language. One of the big sea changes in archaeology over the past few decades is a recognition that there were no truly large population shifts in recent antiquity. So, we can honestly claim that the inhabitants of Macedonia today are, excepting the Roma, Jews, and occasional Turks who trickled in, the same people as a couple of thousand years ago.
I consider this a myopic view when you consider we are talking about _national_ claims in a small region such as Macedonia is. The borders in this region have changed over and over in recent history only, so claiming pure _nationality_ is really funny. Even so, this means that the 1.000.000 Greek Macedonians are also descendents of the inhabitants who lived there thousands of years ago. Beleive me they beleive that their ancestors where Greeks. The problem is that FYROM wants Greece and Bulgaria to recognize a Macedonian Nationality that lies north and west of their borders, while there are people in their country already who call themeselves Macedonians but have nothing to do with FYROM. As you can see this is a potentially dangerous problem. Knowing the Balkans, one that can bring it to war again. Bulgaria has taken a Pontius Pilate approach to this, recognizing FYROM but explictly NOT recognizing a macedonian nationality. History aside, naming FYROM "Republic of Macedonia" is dangerous. Greece proposed "North Macedonia" which is a step back from its first claims and also is perfectly fair for both sides. The people of FYROM could beleive what they want and so can Macedonians in Greece and Bulgaria. But FYROM rejected this. So I'm calling BS on people saying "Greek Nationalism" at this point in time because it simply isn't true for the majority of Greeks. Let's leave history aside (history is the best way to start a war because it can be interpeted any way you like) and find a way out of this mess...
Wrong. The region that was identified by the ancients as Macedonia is currently split between Greece, the Republic of Macedonia, and Bulgaria. Yes, a large part is in Greece, but not all.
True.
Wrong as well. When the Slavs invaded, they were a minority who seized power and slowly imposed their language on the majority. The people living in the Balkans today are the descendents of the inhabitants who lived there thousands of years ago.
Funny. Knowing the population shifts that occured in the years up to today, no one can honestly claim that they are the true descendents of the inhabitants who lived there thousands of years ago. Same for the Greek Macedonians. This is why Greece is proposing "North Macedonia" to FYROM. A geographical clause to its name. But, FYROM rejects this and claims exclsiveness to anything Macedonia. This is first of all dangerous, second of all unfair to Greek-Macedonians and Bulgarian-Macedonians and third hevily questionable by history. There have been errors by the Greek side, especially the nationalist outbreak in 1992 if I remember correctly. But, as it is today, calling FYROM "Republic of Macedonia" is unfair...
Actually based on the phones monitored (besides the Greek officials), you have your high profile anarchists, some arabian business men if I recall right, and a phone or two in the US Embassy. It's obviously in US interests to tap those phones. Even the US Embassy phones could be explained: to monitor possible 'corruption' of US officials. Recently there was an issue of arabian citizens kidnapped by UK authorities for questioning on Greek soil. I'm not saying it was definitely CIA hands down, we don't know all the facts yet and that kind of conclusion is immature at this time. I could buy them being framed by organized crime, because anti-americanism is at its high around the world. But facts are, things are looking bad for them right now...
You're probably right (I know nothing about telephone switches). That is what most experts are saying here also. Which brings us to the next interesting fact. A day before the whole thing went public, a vodafone employe, the one in charge of the department commited suicide. Vodafone says this has nothing to do with the taps. People who knew the guy, said he was concerned about some issues at his job, but surely he wasn't suicidal. This brings a hollywood like turn in the whole story. I'm guessing organized crime. But the list of people being monitored doesn't reveal this clearly...
I'm currently in Greece right now. What they officialy announced was that malicious code triggered a feature of the Ericsson systems Vodafone is using that "duplexes" phone calls. This feature is disabled in Greece by default (or should be anyway) because it is illegal. What is being heavily debated over right now is this: Once Vodafone's administrators found out about the malicious code and the whole illegal setup, they immediantly shut it down, hindering the task of finding the location of the 14 numbers almost impossible. So the question is, if you where in the Vodafone administrator's shoes, would you immediantly shutdown the obviously illegal code, or inform the police before taking action about it?
"Koko-wa-dokodesuka-rootkit?"
It replies:
"what rootkit?"