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4th BC Century Defensive Wall Unearthed
An anonymous reader writes "Yahoo News is reporting that Greek archaeologists have discovered a 2,600 meter defensive wall whose design was 'inspired by Alexander the Great.' In addition to the wall itself 4th-century BC bronze coins were also found inside the structure. From the article: 'The discovery was made in the archaeological site of Dion, an ancient fortified city and key religious sanctuary of the Macedonian civilization, which ruled much of Greece until Roman times.'"
the wall seems to head in a straight line towards a neighbouring enemy city. periodically there are areas where sand seems to be turned to glass by large electric discharges. documents from the area refer to multiple "hands of Zeus", "wall whoring" and "gay lamer noob faggots".
This is really neat and everything, but what purpose does it serve putting it here?
Ramen
Does this wall protect against trojans? Did they close any unnecessary services and make sure it was well patched at all times? What was it protecting, an abacus? So many questions...
Ancient Macedonia was a Greek state, not a civilization independant from the rest of Greece.
Upon his death his generals squabbled over the conqured lands, individually taking control of various areas. The Ptolemy reign of Egypt ended with the conquest of Egypt by Julius Ceasar and his taking of Cleopatra as his lover and mother of their child.
The true legacy of Alexander was the Hellenization of the ancient world. The ancient Greek culture was idealized and emulated by the Macedonians, (hence Aristotle as teacher to Alexander), and Alexander spread the idealized version of the ancient Greek culture throughout the lands he conqured.
"Academicians are more likely to share each other's toothbrush than each other's nomenclature."
Cohen
You know you're good when they build a 2600 metre long wall in your honour.
I couldnt think of anything funny to say about this new wall, so I figured I'd post something serious.
Must not have been very good at its job...
Someone really doesn't get it.
Wrong. The region that was identified by the ancients as Macedonia is currently split between Greece, the Republic of Macedonia, and Bulgaria. Yes, a large part is in Greece, but not all.
Wrong as well. When the Slavs invaded, they were a minority who seized power and slowly imposed their language on the majority. The people living in the Balkans today are the descendents of the inhabitants who lived there thousands of years ago.
Alexander the great and Napolean are the two great conquorers in the history of the world. Yes there are others but nobody comes close to these two.
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...sounds more like they were phreak archaeologists.
I didn't realize Celine was so old!
How did they find out this? Was there a writing on one of the rocks? Something like:
(c) 400 BC - Patent pending - A. The Great
There *is* a difference, you know.
Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage
This article is talking about the 4th Century B.C. or B.C.E., however you want to designate it.
Wrong. The region that was identified by the ancients as Macedonia is currently split between Greece, the Republic of Macedonia, and Bulgaria. Yes, a large part is in Greece, but not all.
True.
Wrong as well. When the Slavs invaded, they were a minority who seized power and slowly imposed their language on the majority. The people living in the Balkans today are the descendents of the inhabitants who lived there thousands of years ago.
Funny. Knowing the population shifts that occured in the years up to today, no one can honestly claim that they are the true descendents of the inhabitants who lived there thousands of years ago. Same for the Greek Macedonians. This is why Greece is proposing "North Macedonia" to FYROM. A geographical clause to its name. But, FYROM rejects this and claims exclsiveness to anything Macedonia. This is first of all dangerous, second of all unfair to Greek-Macedonians and Bulgarian-Macedonians and third hevily questionable by history. There have been errors by the Greek side, especially the nationalist outbreak in 1992 if I remember correctly. But, as it is today, calling FYROM "Republic of Macedonia" is unfair...
On the other hand, it is precisely because there are people who do hand in such amazing discoveries that so much is known about the ancient world. There are many sites, throughout Europe, which were discovered precisely because of a reported find leading to a study and finally an excavation.
I have often been critical of archaeologists, and the current state of Italy's archaeological remains doesn't give me much confidence in the competence of world heritage organizations either. Many of the major sites are at the point of collapse, one section of wall at a major site DID collapse last year and would have killed a few hundred tourists if it had happened during the day. Emergency repairs, required within the next year or two, will require between ten to twenty times the money budgetted for ALL Itallian archaeology and maintenance for the next decade, simply in order to prevent massive casualties.
Discoveries are of the utmost importance, proper excavation and documentation are vital, but all of that is useless if proper preservation of finds is ignored. The exceptionally fine ancient monument returned from Italy - a massive obelisk that had been plundered during World War II and was in exceptionally good condition, was smashed into three pieces in order to return it on the cheap. If this is the way things are going to happen in future, the Rosetta Stone will be returned to Egypt as a fine powder - the Egyptians can always glue the grains together again, after all.
Sorry if I sound cynical - well, maybe not entirely sorry. I have a very hard time reconciling demonstrable gross incompetence and money hoarding with any kind of respect for heritage or history. As I've said often enough before, we have many possible futures. Futures are a dime a dozen. We can take our pick of those. However, we only ever have one past. Lose that, and it's gone. You don't get another go. Whatever is destroyed is lost and can never be replaced.
Hey, for some things, that probably doesn't matter too much, and there's just too much history to preserve everything 100% from the information level through to the artifacts themselves. The world is only so big and we're running out of room as it is. Besides which, it is really the information that matters anyway, provided you have gathered as much as is practical and lose as little as possible.
In the "perfect world" (at least, perfect in my highly opinionated world view) no effort would be spared to gather all the information that technology can extract, with that information distributed as widely and as freely as the available technology supports. After that, artifacts become relatively unimportant and sites become more useful for tourism than for study. Provided they don't fall down.
I'm not seeing that kind of study going on, though. The new burial site that has been found, for example - there should be plenty of DNA and mDNA that can be extracted for testing to get an idea of the ethnic makeup of the people of the time. They could even put the mDNA markers up on one of the numerous DNA family history sites, to see if living relatives exist and to encourage a greater participation by average folk in the whole archaeology thing. People will be far more willing to invest a little extra time and money on a project if they feel involved - even if only highly superficially - than they will if it is purely seen as the idle musings of some University types with a trowel fetish.
The pendant is another good example. Gold i
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Quote: "ATHENS (AFP) - Greek archaeologists excavating an ancient Macedonian city in the foothills of Mount Olympus have uncovered a 2,600-metre defensive wall whose design was "inspired by the glories of Alexander the Great," the site supervisor said Thursday.
Built into the wall were dozens of fragments from statues honouring ancient Greek gods, including Zeus, Hephaestus and possibly Dionysus, archaeologist Dimitrios Pantermalis told a conference in the northern port city of Salonika, according to the Athens News Agency.
Early work on the fortification is believed to have begun under Cassander, the fourth-century BC king of Macedon who succeeded Alexander the Great. Cassander is believed to have ordered the murders of Alexander's mother, wife and infant son, Pantermalis said.
The wall's design suggests that it was "inspired by the glory of Alexander the Great in the East," as the young king sought to emulate grandiose structures encountered during his campaigns, Pantermalis told the conference.
Bronze coins from the period of Theodosius, the 4th-century AD Byzantine Emperor who abolished the ancient Olympic Games, were also found hidden inside the wall.
The discovery was made in the archaeological site of Dion, an ancient fortified city and key religious sanctuary of the Macedonian civilisation, which ruled much of Greece until Roman times.
Prior excavations at Dion have already revealed two theatres, a stadium, and shrines to a variety of gods, including Egyptian deities Sarapis, Isis and Anubis, whose influence in the Greek world grew in the wake of Alexander's conquest of Egypt." End quote.
It sort of answers it all doesn't it?
Don't be apathetic. Procrastinate!
The inhabitants of the Balkans maintain the same general set of genes that other Europeans share, even definitely autochthonous peoples like the Basques. That is how we know that invaders e.g. the Indo-Europeans were minorities compared to the peoples who eventually adopted their language. One of the big sea changes in archaeology over the past few decades is a recognition that there were no truly large population shifts in recent antiquity. So, we can honestly claim that the inhabitants of Macedonia today are, excepting the Roma, Jews, and occasional Turks who trickled in, the same people as a couple of thousand years ago.
It's a no-brainer. Greeks can claim prior art easily. FYROM's claim won't stand in court.
Send them a cease-and-desist letter and be done with it.
The inhabitants of the Balkans maintain the same general set of genes that other Europeans share, even definitely autochthonous peoples like the Basques. That is how we know that invaders e.g. the Indo-Europeans were minorities compared to the peoples who eventually adopted their language. One of the big sea changes in archaeology over the past few decades is a recognition that there were no truly large population shifts in recent antiquity. So, we can honestly claim that the inhabitants of Macedonia today are, excepting the Roma, Jews, and occasional Turks who trickled in, the same people as a couple of thousand years ago.
I consider this a myopic view when you consider we are talking about _national_ claims in a small region such as Macedonia is. The borders in this region have changed over and over in recent history only, so claiming pure _nationality_ is really funny. Even so, this means that the 1.000.000 Greek Macedonians are also descendents of the inhabitants who lived there thousands of years ago. Beleive me they beleive that their ancestors where Greeks. The problem is that FYROM wants Greece and Bulgaria to recognize a Macedonian Nationality that lies north and west of their borders, while there are people in their country already who call themeselves Macedonians but have nothing to do with FYROM. As you can see this is a potentially dangerous problem. Knowing the Balkans, one that can bring it to war again. Bulgaria has taken a Pontius Pilate approach to this, recognizing FYROM but explictly NOT recognizing a macedonian nationality. History aside, naming FYROM "Republic of Macedonia" is dangerous. Greece proposed "North Macedonia" which is a step back from its first claims and also is perfectly fair for both sides. The people of FYROM could beleive what they want and so can Macedonians in Greece and Bulgaria. But FYROM rejected this. So I'm calling BS on people saying "Greek Nationalism" at this point in time because it simply isn't true for the majority of Greeks. Let's leave history aside (history is the best way to start a war because it can be interpeted any way you like) and find a way out of this mess...
Sorry to bother you and spark up this heated debate but this is a flaimbait i couldn't let go of..
You see, while the language the ancient macedonians used was different than the athenian dialect, which was the most wide-spread at the time, most linguists share the view that they are pretty closely related.
And while some of their traditions, etc might have been different from other greek city states, the dwdekatheon (the twelve gods - zeus etc.) is what they believed in too.
We mustn't forget that the rest of the greek city states allied with the macedonians in order to repel persian invasions..
Now on to the important thing..the people who are currently living in FYROM, are slavic and came to the balcan area at around the 6th century. The ancient macedonian empire fell at 148 BC. Their language is totaly different. What was most crazy was their initial flag..the naming is kinda OK with me i guess but come on, the Vergina Sun? that's stretching it a bit too far..
Infinite time means everything that can happen, will. You being you is absolutely incidental. You do not exist.
For those of us in the old world, I reckon the possible Alexander connection is the interesting bit. Maybe a re-titling of the headline to reflect this? 4th century BCE walls and remains? got them all over the place. Maybe the date is more exciting to folks whose archaeological records only stretch back a couple of hundred years ;-)
alexander was a great conqueror, no denying that, but there is one in history who is better :|
Julius Caesar :o
PS: napoleon sux
I follow you 100%, but I wonder to what extent the same naming/population issues are applicable to other cases like Luxemburg and Kuwait.
If I recall correctly, both countries have a neighbouring province in Belgium/Iraq respectively with the same name, and there must be more examples. I've never heard anyone propose "South Luxembourg" or "South Kuwait" although they may very well be more correct.
Whether Alexander was Greek depends on what you consider Greek. You're correct that there is a distinction between classical Greeks (i.e. Athenians, Spartans, and others) and classical Macedonians. However, modern Greeks are actually in large part descendents of Macedonians and Hellenized non-Greeks; it's not as if modern Greeks are somehow purebred descendents of ancient Athenians.
To the extent that the Macedonian Empire created much of what would become the "Hellenic World", Alexander was certainly Greek almost definitionally.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
You linked to an article on a nation comprised of Slavic peoples who migrated to the region nearly 1000 years after Alexander died.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
::beats troll with own club::
::mutters about things like "too early in the morning" and "damn idiot trolls" and "I need coffee"::
I'd say "find another bridge to sit under" but you'd prolly have to have some knowledge of history to decide what was a good bridge.
This is both News for Nerds, and Stuff that Matters. Go away. Sit under your crappy bridge and wait for the Billy Goats Gruff.
"goodbye and hello, as always" ~Prince Corwin, from Zelazny's Amber series
I don't know about those provinces and the history of them so I don't have an honest opinion. But, the case here is that FYROM is claiming a macedonian nationality. This would complicate things when you already have 1.000.000 people in your country calling themeselves macedonians and claiming they are Descendants of Alexander, yet beleive their ancestors where Greek and have nothing to do with FYROM. So recognizing A "Republic of Macedonia", is telling these people that either they are not "macedonian" or they have something to do with FYROM. The recent US State department's statement of a "macedonian minority" in Greece just complicates the matter. To be fair, there are people from FYROM living in Greece (i guess), but I doubt they are even 1.000 in number. But you see how this can get complicated. (Like when you say macedonian minority, what exactly are you talking about? Both sides call themeselves macedonians..). The "North" part of the proposed name would determine them geographically and let history be what historians make of it. And generally speaking, let each side beleive what it wants...
I personally think both countries are caught up in other's geopolitical games. But that's just my opinion. Greece is heavily investing in FYROM so the ground of a good relationship is their. We just have to stop trying to relate everything with history which you can interpretate as you like and find a solution that benefits both sides...
I don't know if Makedonias were allowed to
compelte in the Olympics. It is a fair
indication that if Makedonias were invited to compete
with other Greeks, then Makedonias were also Greeks.
Please remember that Larisa is only a short
distance away from Pela (Makedonia), and Larisa
was a Greek city famous for it horsemanship --
the Kentucky Derby of ancient times. On the
surface, it seems more probable that Makedonia
was considered Greek among the Greeks.
Walls eventually turn into tourist attractions.
of Aphrodite! (You Hoser.)
LOL
(Flipping trhough Payers Handbook) Are you sure they are'nt copper or gold pieces? If they are bronze, what good are they. (grin)
"Enjoy what you're doing! If it becomes drudgery, you're doing it wrong!" - Jim Butterfield
OK who invented the time machine and forgot to tell me?
Ms. Warwick built that wall to keep in her psychic friends.
Nam et ipsa scientia potestas est - Sir Francis Bacon
Seems like /.'s sloppiness regarding AD/BC was actually a good decision =P
Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage
Nearly all scientific names use latin
s
A lot of medicinal applications and names come from latin
Every day phrases you've probably heard:
"Quid pro quo" - something for something (I think I have that right)
"Caveat Emptor" - buyer beware
"Veni Vidi Vici" - "I Came, I Saw, I Conquered"
"Carpe Diem" - sieze the day
"Carpe Cervisi" - sieze the beer.. ok so that one's not every day
and then theres a bunch of abbreviations, e.g.:
c.f. "compare"
et al. "and others"
e.g. "for example"
i.e. "in other words"
vs. "against"
and then of course some english words that derive from latin:
virus is a cognate of 'vrus'
urban derives from 'urbs'
terrestrial derives from 'terra'
and many more...
This latin language lesson brought to you by: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Latin_phrase
"Bronze coins from the period of Theodosius, the 4th-century AD Byzantine Emperor who abolished the ancient Olympic Games, were also found hidden inside the wall." Sort of an important detail, don't you think?
Americans don't give a flying f*** about the Balkans. Most Americans don't know Macedonia even exists. It just seems like narcissism or wanting to elevate their status for a country like those in the Balkans to say that the USA would manipulate their position.
Now also, as an American, I can say the Balkans baffle me. They're the biggest failure in modern state-building. People in the Balkans like Ibrahim Rugova, self professed "President of Kosovo" feel like they must split their already fragmented country because they don't want to have to get along with people who aren't of the same religion as them. It's too bad. It's a shame, and it is definitely not American doing.
I don't think Macedonia is needed to smuggle guns and people in and out of Europe. Bulgaria fulfills that purpose pretty well too.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
so it'd be obsolete by now anyway.
You should go hang out on digg
You sound like a farce to be reckened with...
If you could suggest a good archaeological journal that actually covers the discoveries that DON'T make the mainstream news (online and free would be ideal, but I somehow doubt there are many of those) then I would truly appreciate it.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Problem with /. is that the young geeks nowadays aren't nearly geeky enough.
Pining for the fjords
Apparently I missed the previous replies questioning imipak's presence on slashdot
Science is concerned with gaining knowledge about the natural world by observation. To do their job, scientists systematically describe phenomena, classify observations, and reach conclusions. This often involves controlled and replicable laboratory experiments, such as those in chemistry or psychology, but it may also consist of detailed observation without experiment. Some fields cannot solely rely on experiments; these are called historical sciences. Geology, evolutionary biology and archeology are historical sciences that deal with past events that no longer can be directly observed. The evidence left behind, however, can be studied to reconstruct what took place (Ashmore and Sharer 1996:10).
http://www.hostkingdom.net/earthrul.html
However, those are by country, not by conqueror. I suppose the real measure would be, not what one single ruler ruled over the largest area, but what one single ruler grew his domain by the largest amount during his reign. And that was probably Genghis Khan.
Still, the type of resistance that the likes of Genghis Khan and Alexander the Great encountered in their campaigns is far different from that of, say, Napolean or Hitler. Back in the old days you could just drag an army through a few cities and claim the whole area as yours with very little actual "control" outside the urban areas, and sometimes not even then. The Roman Empire, on the other hand, was much more systematic and substantial in it's control over most areas, but even then at times large areas of the empire were really under Barbarian control with minimal Roman influence.
Bruce
I didn't know that Alexander the Great was a fan of Pink Floyd. I knew those guys were old, but I had no idea THAT old.
Your email has been returned due to insufficent voltage.
Stupid Anatolians, dey tear down my schitty wall!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pella_katadesmos
Greeks can. And this was not written by some of the "elite". I wonder when people will understand that this is not "greek nationalist propaganda", but falsification of the history. FYROMians are 25% Albanians and 25% Roms, Turks, Serbs and Bulgarians, the rest are the remainings of Tito's works.
I wonder why you score "5"s. You present factual "evidence" from the side of a semi-educated, arrogant being.
In USA, you have Texans and New-Yorkers. In Ancient Greece, you had Athenians, Spartans, Macedonians and a whole lot of other "tribes". People in Macedonia spoke (60% of the ancient kingdom of Macedonia belongs to Greece now) and wrote *undoubtedly* (see Aristotle, Pella Katadesmos and other findings) Greek. Different dialects existed. Different accents existed. Like a Southernd accent and slang terms, in USA today. I can speak English, but don't know what the hell a 15 year old rapper or a 65 year old Texan is talking about.
maybe this is redundant ... but I have to ask this question:
... maybe they mean the "greek wall", but that is quite common all over the South-Eastern Europe, Anatolia, Levant up to Pakistan. Ancient walls raise up the building expenses in that area on a regular basis, since you have to pay some archaeologists to look over it just in case the local government will miss the great treasure burried there by the local founding hero.
Why is this news ? Wals, from the fourth century BC or even older are found every damn week, and I cannot imagine how could Alexander the Great inspire a wall design
Last year there was the big news about the prehistoric dildo, piece any sane archaeologist would have been able to identify with the implement used for resharpening stone blades.
Are the archaelogists that hungry that they must invent news? I thought that's the apanage of the PR people working for IT companies...
The 4th century B.C. spanned from 301 to 400 B.C.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10