GigsVT said:
>Sure, it might work "as good" on your screen
>(your screen can't show CMYK
>correctly anyway), but when you are going to be
>printing things on a press, you
>need to have support for real Pantone colors.
>Adobe continues to have a
>monopoly in this area.
The normal concept of Pantone spot colour is quite different from that of CMYK process colour. The latter requires (in the instance of computer modeling) a method to convert from RGB display on-screen to CMYK output (note that GhostScript does this, but is buggy and imprecise:( _and_ a method to control/calibrate the RGB display---the latter is the sticking point for the GIMP.
Pantone is a commercial standard which anyone can make use of by _licensing_ it from the company---NeXT did this for NeXTstep, so drawing and other DTP programs were cheaper for it, since no extra license was necessary.
However, one can do spot colours without such a license---just create a channel/separation/plate and tell the printer, ``this plate should be blue, i.e., Pantone 301'', but it won't necessarily look like that on the screen (a common trick is to say cyan==blue, magenta==red, and such like, to get spot colour blending which the typical dtp apps don't handle). This is way cool if one has a RIP or other trapping/ink manipulation tool which allows ink-substitution.
Sadly, spot colours are misunderstood even in the graphic design industry (one Quark book author stated he didn't understand where the Pantone color numbers came from, they're from the ink formulation, so Pantone 301 is three parts cyan, 0 magenta, one yellow, no black)
The problem with the GIMP for spot colours is there's AFAICT no multi-channel support, with an understanding for colour as applied pigment and which models the difference between additive and subtractive colour.
Well, originally, there was WriteNow.app, which was originally a Mac product (Apple paid for its development in case MacWrite didn't make it), then NeXT bought the company to have a wordprocessor to bundle. ~100,000 lines of M68K Assembler, not sure who owns it now (T/Maker?), but not terribly easy to port to Mac OS X....
WordPerfect 1.0 for NeXT was roughly equal to WordPerfect 5.0 for DOS (but with the 5.1 table editor?), but Services and Display PostScript made it quite nice---ported in just 6 weeks too (but they started from the working Unix version), but Corel seems to've lost the code, and it's way out of date anyway
CedarWord has been mentioned, but no sign of activity at http://www.cedar.co.uk/ (interesting program, uses TeX's H&J algorithm)
OpenWrite was absorbed by Sun when they bought Lighthouse.:(
WriteUp.app's status hasn't changed AFAICT from www.afstrade.com:( they're still refusing to do anything with it 'cause Apple renegged on their promise of free ``Yellow Box'' (i.e. Cocoa) run-time library licenses for Windows. PasteUp.app (written by Glenn Reid of www.rightbrain.com, he also worked on iMovie and PasteUp.app, which Adobe has lost:( is similarly locked up.
There' is TeX of course, and NeXTTeX, TeXview.app and InstantTeX are unmatched for integration and features anywhere ('s why my NeXT Cube at home is still my main machine)
when the ISP is providing/creating the content, e.g. AOL or Compuserver...
Interesting to set it up in a non-partisan way though...
Seems the best thing to do would be to offer area-specific things to allow ISPs to differentiate themselves, or, maybe this sort of thing will foster interest-specific ISPs... hmm, wonder if NASCAR-fan.com has been registered yet...
The.50 was developed as an anti-tank round initially, with a secondary consideration as a machine gun round. It's more a gentlemanly convention to not use them against personnel, and not one strictly held or written down. Certainly the FMJ ammunition which is the norm isn't prohibited by the Haque Convention.
The.50 caliber sniper rifles are frequently billed as being useful in destroying aircraft.
But the.50 is only for use against equipment (so use it against stuff like canteens and web gear:/
Also, the.50 doesn't have a terribly flat trajectory---when Walther was building the WA-2000, they actually considered creating new ammunition for it, to get the flattest possible trajectory, but decided that the.300 Winchester Magnum was good enough that wasn't necessary.
They also weren't too nice 'bout sending out multiple CDs if one had multiple licenses for NeXT/OPENstep---knew I should've used two different addresses....
As I noted in my story submision, the website proper at http:/www.macthemes.org hasn't ben up-dated since 20 March and still has all the files available for d/l, unlike, AFAICT the Sourceforge site.
For an alternative view of how Newton came to be, look at Jerry Kaplan's _Startup_, the story of Go Corp. PenPoint, and how Taiwan's MITI came to own a 32-bit, object-oriented, pre-emptive multi-tasking OS.
The short version is Kaplan came up with the idea (first published in Niven & Pournell's _The Mote in God's Eye_, I believe) of commercializing a pen slate computer, Mitch Kapor (and others) bankrolled it, and they had an Apple engineer sit in on the original bull session sketching out the company concept.
::still kicking myself for getting rid of my NCR-3125 running PenPoint, and wish someone would make a pen slate I'd be interested in buying::
- no Fax support (anyone tried rolling their own?)
- no ``Save'' button in the print panel either, and the printer list is a pop-up, not a scrolling/resizeable list
- Quartz instead of Display PostScript, so no arbitrary PS code usage:( must flatten to.pdf...
- scroll bars are on the wrong side (this is especially bad in the Miller-column browser)
- all of the Services clients are MIA. No Websters (but it'll connect to dict.org), no Oxford's, no Digital Librarian/Shakespeare
- gotta d/l TeX and get TeXShop.app instead of using NeXTTeX
- no more nifty.font bundles
- no Shelf
I for one hope GNUstep picks up some steam. www.gnustep.org
William --
Lettering Art in Modern Use
'n he didn't even mention the really cool UI stuff...
- SERVICES - pipes for GUI apps
- sophisticated inter-app window layering
See my other posts for an explanation of why the former is good. The latter allows one to readily make use of multiple programs without constant switching. --
Lettering Art in Modern Use
Here're some links (from uncertain organic memory, I'm at work) which provide something of a feel/information on NeXT/GNUstep:
www.gnustep.org - main site
www.projectcenter.ch - ProjectBuilder clone
www.windowmaker.org
www.channelu.com - one of the last NeXT sources
www.blackholeinc.com - ditto
www.deepspacetech.com - they may be out of NeXT stuff:(
www.peak.org/~luomat - list of abandonware apps
www.peanuts.org - home of the official NeXT FAQ
www.this.net/~frank - ``Area 51'' for NeXT software
www.chronographer.com - an app which left NeXTstep:(
www.omnigroup.com - a surviving software developer
www.stone.com - ditto
www.apple.com/macosx - the official commercial version:(
In theory, it'd be possible to _recompile_ a GNUstep app for Mac OS X, _but_ there's the matter of the UI. NeXTstep used nibs, and Mac OS X is still using them, I believe (but will be shifting/has shifted to an xml representation), while GNUstep uses gmodels (and GORM isn't finished yet:(
IF the gmodel were converted to Mac OS X, yes, should work. I suppose one could even come up with a fat binary format across the OSs 'cause both use bundles, but don't count on it. --
Lettering Art in Modern Use
Here's a laundry list of nifty software done (originally in some cases) in NeXTstep:
- Doom (incl. the original map editor)
- worldwideweb.app
- FreeHand v4 (nee Altsys Virtuoso)
- Lotus Improv (n-dimensional spreadsheet)
- various 3D things (Renderman was standard in the OS)
Things not so widely known:
- TouchType - by Glenn Reid of www.rightbrain.com, display type editing as direct as metal type. Adobe owns it now, but doesn't market it:(
- PasteUp.app - page layout program done by Glenn Reid in a year, better than Quark or PageMaker. Owned by www.afstrade.com, but they won't sell it either:(
- TeXView.app - By the same guy who did dvips. There was also Instant TeX which made use of it---best free TeX environment around.
- NoteBook.app - by Millenium Software. wonderful datamanagement.
- pStill.app - Available at www.this.net/~frank (versions for Linux and other OSen as well). Make PDFs without paying Danegeld to Adobe.
- TypeView.app - look at one's fonts at a level of detail not possible outside of a vector app.
Things which were part and parcel of NeXTstep with no real equivalent elsewhere as a whole:
- Display PostScript - unified imaging model 'nuff said
- Services - Think of it as pipes for the GUI, made possible:
-- Webster.app - ``In the future any computer which does not ship with a great dictionary will be considered barbaric.''
-- Digital Librarian/Shakespeare - indexed/searchable texts with nice icons (covers)and accessible from any app. Incl. man pages and most of the NeXT manuals.
-- Oxford's Book of Quotations
- Address Book
- Fax
Apple's Mac OS X gets some of this, but leaves a lot out and puts the scrollbars on the wrong side.
I've been working on some GNUstep information at my web page, http://members.aol.com/willadams/gnustep
The author went to a lot of trouble to support the author-applied file-usage limits with good results overall (Adobe opened up the.pdf specification). By undoing that effort and denying authors the ability to choose under what terms their works will be used pdf becomes less viable.
For example, as a graphic designer, I provide.pdf proofs to clients which they can then review---if I can no longer count on these files being secure, I'll have to go back to FedExing printed proofs with an ``Art for Approval'' watermark.
Similarly, a font's license may forbid embedding in a printable.pdf---change that and such licenses may become more restrictive.
The only good thing which might come of this would be better security for.pdfs---but do you think Adobe will continue to provide the information on decrypting things if such provisions are not adhered to by opensource programs?
That said, I agree with the concept that KDE need to be more innovative in terms of their UI concepts, and look forward to this work as it develops beyond basic concepts.
This source is available from teh local library or bookstore as _TeX: The Program_, one of the volumes of the Computers & Typesetting series. The book is the source code of the program as typeset by TeX...
I'd thought this thread would have more on Dr. Knuth's concept of ``Literate Programming''... --
Lettering Art in Modern Use
Slashdot Mirror
But they don't mention whether or no these mounted shares are available to Classic apps.... they're not now, which severely limits their utility.
William
--
Lettering Art in Modern Use
11223 said:
>Well, since Samba is open source,
>it works just fine on OS X as it is now.
See the subject, it says _client_.
If you've ported smbfs to work with Darwin so that SMB shares can be mounted _now_ in Mac OS X without Dave or Sharity, well, people wanna know.
William
--
Lettering Art in Modern Use
GigsVT said:
:( _and_ a method to control/calibrate the RGB display---the latter is the sticking point for the GIMP.
>Sure, it might work "as good" on your screen
>(your screen can't show CMYK
>correctly anyway), but when you are going to be
>printing things on a press, you
>need to have support for real Pantone colors.
>Adobe continues to have a
>monopoly in this area.
The normal concept of Pantone spot colour is quite different from that of CMYK process colour. The latter requires (in the instance of computer modeling) a method to convert from RGB display on-screen to CMYK output (note that GhostScript does this, but is buggy and imprecise
Pantone is a commercial standard which anyone can make use of by _licensing_ it from the company---NeXT did this for NeXTstep, so drawing and other DTP programs were cheaper for it, since no extra license was necessary.
However, one can do spot colours without such a license---just create a channel/separation/plate and tell the printer, ``this plate should be blue, i.e., Pantone 301'', but it won't necessarily look like that on the screen (a common trick is to say cyan==blue, magenta==red, and such like, to get spot colour blending which the typical dtp apps don't handle). This is way cool if one has a RIP or other trapping/ink manipulation tool which allows ink-substitution.
Sadly, spot colours are misunderstood even in the graphic design industry (one Quark book author stated he didn't understand where the Pantone color numbers came from, they're from the ink formulation, so Pantone 301 is three parts cyan, 0 magenta, one yellow, no black)
The problem with the GIMP for spot colours is there's AFAICT no multi-channel support, with an understanding for colour as applied pigment and which models the difference between additive and subtractive colour.
William
--
Lettering Art in Modern Use
mr100percent asked:
.html support
(re: WordPerfect for NeXTstep 1.x being out of date)
> How can a word processor be out of date?
- Can't open recent word-processing format files
- No
William
--
Lettering Art in Modern Use
Well, originally, there was WriteNow.app, which was originally a Mac product (Apple paid for its development in case MacWrite didn't make it), then NeXT bought the company to have a wordprocessor to bundle. ~100,000 lines of M68K Assembler, not sure who owns it now (T/Maker?), but not terribly easy to port to Mac OS X....
:(
:( they're still refusing to do anything with it 'cause Apple renegged on their promise of free ``Yellow Box'' (i.e. Cocoa) run-time library licenses for Windows. PasteUp.app (written by Glenn Reid of www.rightbrain.com, he also worked on iMovie and PasteUp.app, which Adobe has lost :( is similarly locked up.
WordPerfect 1.0 for NeXT was roughly equal to WordPerfect 5.0 for DOS (but with the 5.1 table editor?), but Services and Display PostScript made it quite nice---ported in just 6 weeks too (but they started from the working Unix version), but Corel seems to've lost the code, and it's way out of date anyway
CedarWord has been mentioned, but no sign of activity at http://www.cedar.co.uk/ (interesting program, uses TeX's H&J algorithm)
OpenWrite was absorbed by Sun when they bought Lighthouse.
WriteUp.app's status hasn't changed AFAICT from www.afstrade.com
There' is TeX of course, and NeXTTeX, TeXview.app and InstantTeX are unmatched for integration and features anywhere ('s why my NeXT Cube at home is still my main machine)
William
--
Lettering Art in Modern Use
when the ISP is providing/creating the content, e.g. AOL or Compuserver...
Interesting to set it up in a non-partisan way though...
Seems the best thing to do would be to offer area-specific things to allow ISPs to differentiate themselves, or, maybe this sort of thing will foster interest-specific ISPs... hmm, wonder if NASCAR-fan.com has been registered yet...
William
--
Lettering Art in Modern Use
The .50 was developed as an anti-tank round initially, with a secondary consideration as a machine gun round. It's more a gentlemanly convention to not use them against personnel, and not one strictly held or written down. Certainly the FMJ ammunition which is the norm isn't prohibited by the Haque Convention.
.50 caliber sniper rifles are frequently billed as being useful in destroying aircraft.
The
William
--
Lettering Art in Modern Use
But the .50 is only for use against equipment (so use it against stuff like canteens and web gear :/
.50 doesn't have a terribly flat trajectory---when Walther was building the WA-2000, they actually considered creating new ammunition for it, to get the flattest possible trajectory, but decided that the .300 Winchester Magnum was good enough that wasn't necessary.
Also, the
1,000+ yards effective range...
William
--
Lettering Art in Modern Use
Check out www.metaspy.com
William
--
Lettering Art in Modern Use
Someone on the KDE list suggested ``vektor''
I'd push it even farther though... how 'bout:
veKDEor
?
William
--
Lettering Art in Modern Use
The Y2K remediation program is long gone :(
They also weren't too nice 'bout sending out multiple CDs if one had multiple licenses for NeXT/OPENstep---knew I should've used two different addresses....
William
--
Lettering Art in Modern Use
Once upon a time, it wasn't that far from $6.075.
:(
Some people got a standard $6/hr rate, but the norm was $8/hr during peak times, $4/hr for off-hours.
Once upon a time, playing NeverWinter Nights on AOL, I had an average $400/month bill
William
--
Lettering Art in Modern Use
Already in the works, and pre-dates both projects.
www.gnustep.com
William
--
Lettering Art in Modern Use
http://www.macthemes.org
--
Lettering Art in Modern Use
As I noted in my story submision, the website proper at http:/www.macthemes.org hasn't ben up-dated since 20 March and still has all the files available for d/l, unlike, AFAICT the Sourceforge site.
Wiliam
--
Lettering Art in Modern Use
For an alternative view of how Newton came to be, look at Jerry Kaplan's _Startup_, the story of Go Corp. PenPoint, and how Taiwan's MITI came to own a 32-bit, object-oriented, pre-emptive multi-tasking OS.
The short version is Kaplan came up with the idea (first published in Niven & Pournell's _The Mote in God's Eye_, I believe) of commercializing a pen slate computer, Mitch Kapor (and others) bankrolled it, and they had an Apple engineer sit in on the original bull session sketching out the company concept.
::still kicking myself for getting rid of my NCR-3125 running PenPoint, and wish someone would make a pen slate I'd be interested in buying::
William
--
Lettering Art in Modern Use
But there's a lot that's missing...
:( must flatten to .pdf...
.font bundles
- no Fax support (anyone tried rolling their own?)
- no ``Save'' button in the print panel either, and the printer list is a pop-up, not a scrolling/resizeable list
- Quartz instead of Display PostScript, so no arbitrary PS code usage
- scroll bars are on the wrong side (this is especially bad in the Miller-column browser)
- all of the Services clients are MIA. No Websters (but it'll connect to dict.org), no Oxford's, no Digital Librarian/Shakespeare
- gotta d/l TeX and get TeXShop.app instead of using NeXTTeX
- no more nifty
- no Shelf
I for one hope GNUstep picks up some steam. www.gnustep.org
William
--
Lettering Art in Modern Use
'n he didn't even mention the really cool UI stuff... - SERVICES - pipes for GUI apps - sophisticated inter-app window layering See my other posts for an explanation of why the former is good. The latter allows one to readily make use of multiple programs without constant switching.
--
Lettering Art in Modern Use
Here're some links (from uncertain organic memory, I'm at work) which provide something of a feel/information on NeXT/GNUstep:
:(
:(
:(
www.gnustep.org - main site
www.projectcenter.ch - ProjectBuilder clone
www.windowmaker.org
www.channelu.com - one of the last NeXT sources
www.blackholeinc.com - ditto
www.deepspacetech.com - they may be out of NeXT stuff
www.peak.org/~luomat - list of abandonware apps
www.peanuts.org - home of the official NeXT FAQ
www.this.net/~frank - ``Area 51'' for NeXT software
www.chronographer.com - an app which left NeXTstep
www.omnigroup.com - a surviving software developer
www.stone.com - ditto
www.apple.com/macosx - the official commercial version
William
--
Lettering Art in Modern Use
In theory, it'd be possible to _recompile_ a GNUstep app for Mac OS X, _but_ there's the matter of the UI. NeXTstep used nibs, and Mac OS X is still using them, I believe (but will be shifting/has shifted to an xml representation), while GNUstep uses gmodels (and GORM isn't finished yet :(
IF the gmodel were converted to Mac OS X, yes, should work. I suppose one could even come up with a fat binary format across the OSs 'cause both use bundles, but don't count on it.
--
Lettering Art in Modern Use
Here's a laundry list of nifty software done (originally in some cases) in NeXTstep:
:(
:(
- Doom (incl. the original map editor)
- worldwideweb.app
- FreeHand v4 (nee Altsys Virtuoso)
- Lotus Improv (n-dimensional spreadsheet)
- various 3D things (Renderman was standard in the OS)
Things not so widely known:
- TouchType - by Glenn Reid of www.rightbrain.com, display type editing as direct as metal type. Adobe owns it now, but doesn't market it
- PasteUp.app - page layout program done by Glenn Reid in a year, better than Quark or PageMaker. Owned by www.afstrade.com, but they won't sell it either
- TeXView.app - By the same guy who did dvips. There was also Instant TeX which made use of it---best free TeX environment around.
- NoteBook.app - by Millenium Software. wonderful datamanagement.
- pStill.app - Available at www.this.net/~frank (versions for Linux and other OSen as well). Make PDFs without paying Danegeld to Adobe.
- TypeView.app - look at one's fonts at a level of detail not possible outside of a vector app.
Things which were part and parcel of NeXTstep with no real equivalent elsewhere as a whole:
- Display PostScript - unified imaging model 'nuff said
- Services - Think of it as pipes for the GUI, made possible:
-- Webster.app - ``In the future any computer which does not ship with a great dictionary will be considered barbaric.''
-- Digital Librarian/Shakespeare - indexed/searchable texts with nice icons (covers)and accessible from any app. Incl. man pages and most of the NeXT manuals.
-- Oxford's Book of Quotations
- Address Book
- Fax
Apple's Mac OS X gets some of this, but leaves a lot out and puts the scrollbars on the wrong side.
I've been working on some GNUstep information at my web page, http://members.aol.com/willadams/gnustep
--
Lettering Art in Modern Use
The author went to a lot of trouble to support the author-applied file-usage limits with good results overall (Adobe opened up the .pdf specification). By undoing that effort and denying authors the ability to choose under what terms their works will be used pdf becomes less viable.
.pdf proofs to clients which they can then review---if I can no longer count on these files being secure, I'll have to go back to FedExing printed proofs with an ``Art for Approval'' watermark.
.pdf---change that and such licenses may become more restrictive.
.pdfs---but do you think Adobe will continue to provide the information on decrypting things if such provisions are not adhered to by opensource programs?
For example, as a graphic designer, I provide
Similarly, a font's license may forbid embedding in a printable
The only good thing which might come of this would be better security for
William
--
Lettering Art in Modern Use
Uh, Graffiti has been patented, by Xerox as Unistroke for which they sued/are suing Palm Has this been resolved yet?
William
--
Lettering Art in Modern Use
Uh, the statement quoted is Fitts' law...
That said, I agree with the concept that KDE need to be more innovative in terms of their UI concepts, and look forward to this work as it develops beyond basic concepts.
William
--
Lettering Art in Modern Use
This source is available from teh local library or bookstore as _TeX: The Program_, one of the volumes of the Computers & Typesetting series. The book is the source code of the program as typeset by TeX...
I'd thought this thread would have more on Dr. Knuth's concept of ``Literate Programming''...
--
Lettering Art in Modern Use