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PDA Giant Sharp Promises Linux-Running PDAs
ECaldwell writes: "It looks as though Sharp is stepping up to the PDA plate with a unit (the Zaurus) that uses Linux instead of Palm, CE or a proprietary OS. These units are designed to be direct competitors with Palms, Handspring and other PDA's. The timing for a release of is planned for around Christmas.
The problems for Palm and CE devices so far is the limit of easy to use programming languages which makes it difficult for a novice to write even an basic progam (I don't know C or C++). The good news here is, with Linux loaded on a Zarus we should be able to use any of the great languages that Linux already supports to flood that market with good software." (Read on for more).
Lynuhx indicates a Japanese-language page where you can see a cute mockup of this thing, and denisbergeron points to these two links on yahoo for a bit more: [(1) and (2)] Sharp's products and reputation seem to have languished in the U.S., so this planned offensive will be interesting -- especially if by Christmas, "Linux PDAs" has become a crowded field.
This would be sweet, but when's it gonna ship? Hopefully sooner than the _other_ Linux running PDAs that have been rumored.
Too bad I can't read Japanese, but the movie player looks nifty.
It's a shame that so much cool technology never makes it over here from Japan. I remember, at least 8 years ago, I met a Taiwanese student that had a device that was probably about the size of a TI-92. It had a built-in dictionary with a few languages crossreferenced to English, a currency calculator, a TI-81, and probably a few other things, built-in. I have yet to see anything like that in the US.
Of course, by now we have PDAs like the Palm Pilot, but I have to wonder how many great ideas never make it over here. After all, my favorite Final Fantasy game was Final Fantasy 5, and that's still hard to find in America, and was only officially released a year or two ago here...
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pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
That's ridiculous.
For WindowsCE you have Visual Basic, Waba, KVM. For Palm, you have AppForge, Satellite Forms Pro, Waba, KVM, PQAs, etc.
How hard is it to write a layer for these things so i can download PalmOS apps to them? Golf and Asteroids had better come out pretty quick for it too, those meetings can get pretty dull.
In reply to the person who submitted the story, how easy do you want it to be. Oh no, the horror, you must learn the language. C isn't hard, and programming for PalmOS isn't either. Download the reference PDF and you're set. It was all fairly self explanatory IMO (a heck of alot better than trying to program straight win32 from the crappy Microsoft help files that came with borland). I think some people today think programming ought to be handed to them, that the programming framework should allow them to do wonders with out lifting a finger, and granted, I do agree that a programming framework should do much of the gruntwork that ends up being repetitive in writing large apps, but you, the programmer, have to get in there and be creative. If programming was easy, everyone would do it (ok, if it was easy to everyone, to alot of us it is, but the /. crowd isn't exactly 'average').
The best way to accelerate a windows box is at 9.8 meters per second square.
The problem with the CE isn't the languages, it's the cost of a development system!
MOVE 'ZIG'.
Without question, the MAIN reason I bought my current PDA (Handspring Visor, PalmOS) is beacuse of the ease of use of Graffiti.
Is there an open source equivalent? Or even a Linux equivalent that will run on these vaporous Linux PDAs? I'd love to run Linux on my PDA, if for nothing but the applications, but without Graffiti, I'm sure I wouldn't use it much.
Then again, how does text entry happen on WinCE? I've never used it.
It'll be nice to see how they overcome the interface problems. Simply slapping a touch-sensitive screen on an LCD isn't sufficient. Many of the fundamental GUI "givens" really no longer apply.
It'll be nice to see, but I honestly can't say I'll ditch my Palm IIIc for one. Maybe if it'll double as wireless Xterm.
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Does this mean the price will drop alot on the linux PDA? Since they will not have any OS licensing fee.
From the perspective of a typical palm geek, one who is interested in using the built in applications or downloading a useful application for the palm device from some web site, why should I care about the underlying OS? Palm geeks use their Palm as an appliance - just turn it on and use it. They don't care whether it is using PalmOS, CE or Linux - they just want cool apps.
From a developers perspective, maybe linux would be cool on a palm device - but this has little to do with marketability of the product to the masses.
"Microsoft has made computing accessible to a population who would otherwise not be able to use computers" - B. Kernigha
This will let you dial out on your GSM mobile and print to IR capable printers. A quite connected device. With an MP3 player and an MPEG viewer, I'd be all set!
-Pat
Linux may be new to the PDA scene, but some background principles must still be abided by. Julie Hinds of the San Francisco Examiner had an interesting article on the "Do's and Don'ts of PDAs" that holds just as true today as it did when it was first published four years ago.
Read the rest of this comment...
This summer while working in Tokyo I seen the ads for this product on TV. There is the boy band called "Da Pump," think of a more lame "n sync," bouncing around on trampolines and using thier little PDAs I wish I had a copy of this ad. I don't think anyone would take this product seriously even they marketed it that way over here. Anyways after seeing one up close up I wanted to buy it but I didn't have money to burn.
So.. its running Linux. can you access the guts of the device? recompile the kernel? mount its flash file system to your desktop?
One thing I wonder about is how it'll sync; will Sharp include a Linux desktop sync program? I can just imagine the uproar if it doesn't include the ability out-of-the-box to connect to existing Linux boxes...
Beowulf cluster of these things, yadda yadda yadda.
ZOMG I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS ON MACINTOSH VERSUS WINDOWS, VI VERSUS EMACS, AND HOW YOU'RE NOT A DORK
The advantages of Linux stated in the front article are void when it comes to PDAs.
It's not the kernel that's important, it's the API. Because of this, it doesn't matter that there are lots and lots of programming languages available for Linux/Unix systems. It is simply not the issue for a PDA, if you haven't got a PDA-centric API to start with.
You cannot simply take the current standard APIs for desktop Linux application development (and there are several) and put them on a PDA. You need handwriting recogniation or some similar data input method, you need graphics output, you need a flash-memory file system. All this in a device that has little memory to start with.
Once you have all this, your version of Linux is so product-specific and different from what you know from your desktop that it might be worth considering to use one of the existing PDA-centric environment such as PalmOS or CE.
The PalmOS API is pretty damn neat -- for its specific purpose. You get all the APIs and a full-fledged developers kit (based on the Gnu C compiler and other Gnu tools) for free. C as a language is damn easy to learn and is probably the one language almost every programmer knows. Other than that, there are several alternative (commercial) development kits out there for people who want to avoid C. (Yes, I tried the PalmOS API. I cannot comment on CE, though.)
There are several PDA-environments based on Linux out there, but none of them are actually ready for prime time and all of them require significant rewrites of your existing source. I do hope that one of them will, I was very impressed by the PDA-version of Qt. But again: you cannot use the current advantages of Desktop Linux as arguments for a PDA Linux.
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You may like my a cappella music
The OS on my Revo comes complete with a multiple destination, multiple device TCP/IP stack that supports infrared, serial cables and modems. Out of the box it supports syncing with any IR capable phone and sending SMS messages and it can print via IR too! My Revo comes with it built into ROM! Oh yeah, and it comes with a multiaccount POP client, a WAP browser and Opera 3. For nothing extra. With a Palm, you'd need about $100 worth of add-on software to do all that. The software is much higher quality too!
Psion's PDAs have a built-in compilable programming language called OPL that really rocks. It reminds me of TCL/TK because it is so easy to build an interface and get your application working. Check out www.symbiandevnet.com to see more.
You coders should pick up a Psion 5MX or Revo .. I could use a nice IRC application and a Weather checker.
-Pat
Actualy, if your running CE you can get microsoft's Visual Basic (or VisualC++, if you want) to program it, it's a free download off their website. I had some stuff up and running on my PocketPC in just a few minutes (a unicode font viewer, since CE supports unicode :)
Of course, visual basic sucks ass as a programming language, but it is 'easy'.
Anyway I don't see why being able to run Linux on a PDA will create a huge overwhelming amount of 'cool' software. I mean, most people already know C++, and I don't see that much cool client-side stuff written in Perl, or whatever.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
My current PDA (visor deluxe) is very thick -- (atleast compared to something like the palm VX), and thus I find myself tempted to leave it at home instead of drag it along with me.
On the otherside -- the palm VX is so thin it can fit in a specially designed wallet (thats only slightly larger then a regular wallet) -- which means it wouldn't be any more of a burden then my wallet which I already carry.
So forget OS squabbles, and tell me about the next ultra-thin pda :)
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Dont forget smalltalk for the PalmOS. I think its the best solution for the Palm.
www.pocketsmalltalk.com
I'm from Argentina: Tango, Asado, Mate, Gaucho, Maradona, YPF
The article only mentions Java support. Java's nice and all, but there's a lot of work to be done if you want C, C++, or even BASIC programs to work.
Who wants to port gcc to a (I assume) proprietary machine language?
My mom is not a Karma whore!
Those of you who haven't tried looking at the Japanese site are missing out and adding some confusion to the discussion.
The input method for this device is actually a small thumb-keyboard, similar to the RIM blackberry device. It's hiding underneath the control buttons, which is very cool as it stays out of the way when you're looking up information. I think this would make entering data much easier than Grafitti, which has lots of problems (ever tried playing zork on a palm while riding the subway? endless frustration :).
It also contains some kind of mpeg 4 movie player.
This device is really cool... but the future of these devices is definitely how well they interact with your other computer systems. If it's not too hard to create conduit-like things for it, that would help, but even better would be an easy way to pass any kind of information between it and multiple computers.
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QAExpress: Solid bug tracking for you. Graphs and reports for your PHB.
Thats what I thought, to, untill I found the free download (Visual Basic and Visual C++). I was very, very, happy
You can be happy to, go Here. This is just for pocketPC, though, not the HPCs, or whatever
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
As very few people know, NiCAD actually beats out NiMH batteries in 99% of applications. Panasonic sells 1100mAh AA NiCAD batteries at my local Costco in six-packs. In fact, the last just as long as Alkaline batteries in situations where 2 AAs are used.
The drawback to all rechargeable batteries is that they usually put out 1.25 volts instead of the 1.5 volts Alkaline gets. This is not an issue in CD players where only two are used (only .5v difference) but is a big deal in my Sega Nomad where 6 are used (1.5v difference) but I simply wired two extra battery holders in-place to compensate. So for a grand total of 15$ I got a battery pack that lasts twice as long as Sega's 60$ NiMH battery pack (which takes 12Hrs to recharge as well, compared to the 4Hrs for my NiCAD batteries).
Another thing: NiCAD has a longer life (# of times it can be recharged), is much lighter, and are cheaper to buy.
I manage just fine with a notepad and a pencil.
Advts
.No programming required.
Can be easily customized.
Glue languages are available for a dime
Graffiti optional.
Disadvts
Doesn't cost too much. There goes my bragging rights.
It's quite simple really. If you are a WINCE user, you are used to restarting all the time, getting corrupted files, having no control, and incompatabilities between programs made for different versions of the OS. Those things I thought of off the top of my head are just a few (very important) reasons why a user cares what OS is running the device.
Symbol is partnering with various folks to provide a palm on steroids running java on linux. I've seen some of these customized for a particular vendor partner, and they rock.
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
I would like to point out, though, that just because it runs Linux doesn't mean you can run perl on it or something like that. I just checked, and my perl modules alone are 16MB. Sure I have some extra stuff, but that's the stuff that makes it useful.
The reason most people write in C or C++ for PDA's is speed. I'm involved in a project right now where I'm porting a satallite forms app to Metrowerks C. Not that it didn't work, or wasn't pretty, etc, but it was too slow. PDA's are kinda like programming back in the old days when every pointer mattered and every byte accounted for. Unlike desktop PCs, you're looking at MHz in the double, not triple digits, and memory is usually less than 8M on the majority of palm pilots, and that's shared storage AND heap memory. Not to mention that there's this 32K of contiguous data thing to deal with.
So, just because linux is there doesn't mean you get all these great scripting languages for it, but on the other hand, just because it isn't doesn't mean you CAN'T have them either. The source is free, grab gcc-pila and start porting!
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get it? get it?
i'm so punny...
Yeah, like you're going to fit a kitchen sink like perl on a palmtop. I don't know much about Python, but I suspect it's similar. Java at least has proven small implementations....
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
it's an 'easy to use' language, will it produce executables that can handle the limited resources of a PDA comparibly to a system-level language like C? Is that the PDA's selling point, that it's easy to program? With the IPaq and others, you can't just use Linux as the selling point of a PDA anymore, right?
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we continuously see articles showing "promise" of a Linux handheld yet I have seen no TRUE concrete evidence of mass production of any of these products. Compaq has Yopi (or whatever it is), and now Sharp has this thing (the only two REAL vendors that I have seen). Problem is, Compaq's machine (while it seems to have actual photos of the product has yet to put anything of hte sort on the market and probably will just stick to its iPAQ line). Sharp on the other hand has non-realistic looking photos on its site and I highly doubt the future of this PDA.
.02
Like many others have said, Linux is a great OS with great possibilities, but the lack of good character recognition, and lack of a decent GUI have led to the downfall of Linux as a viable OS for the handheld market.
Until I see a REAL LIVE Linux based handheld running w/a decent touchscreen based GUI (where I have to type little) I will stick to my Cassiopeia and WinCE.
Just my worthless
I think the idea is more programinf *for* the PDA, not on it. Cross compiling will allow you to do all development outside of testing off of the PDA.
-I just work here... how am I supposed to know?
From scanning through the (japanese) page it looks like it'll have 16MB of RAM and 3.6MB of flash ROM. That compares somewhat favorably to Windows CE apps, but I dunno how much I like the idea of 16MB to fit the OS and apps and data into. Since it has a CF slot, I'd definitely buy a 64MB CF card. Maybe even more, I dunno. Problem is, doing something like that would likely make a (probably) already expensive device even more so. The pictures do look pretty sweet though.
Obviously, you have never written a program for a PDA.
You forget about the combined memory requirements of the Linux kernel, the C-library, the C++-library, the X server, the GTK libraries etc. Now take your favourite existing Linux app (how about Mozilla?), type make and try to put it in the little memory that's left. There's no swap space, no hard disk, just a bit of RAM.
You'll have to do some serious work on all these components, taking out unneeded stuff, to save space.
The PalmOS as an example runs on 512 Kilobytes ROM and 256 Kilobytes of RAM (used for stack and user data). Try to do that with Linux and an X-less GTK+. It is possible, sure, but you can't claim that it will work "out of the box".
That's why a PDA-centric API offers less functionality than a desktop-centric API, to begin with.
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True, however don't forget there is also the "zen" of programming that is needed. Someone who is used to writing servers (or console, non-gui apps) can't just jump into gtk or mfc because it's a different way of thinking. Event queues and callbacks just aren't used (as much in my experience) in your standard server which does "while(1){recieve_packet(); switch(packet); do_stuff_with(packet); }"
:)
There's a lot in palm programming that, while easy for those familiar with the realm, would be very confusing to someone who has written a few apps.
However, as the author says, a familar platform will let you write in whatever you're most familar with, be it bash, perl, or gtk
You don't have to know C# to develop for CE. CE's native language is a stripped down version of VB. A basic CE app can be generated in a half hour or so. I don't think that easy application development will be a draw for Linux based PDAs, when comparing them to CE PDA's. Our company actually chose CE for our PDA product because of it's super rapid development time.
Graffiti: this is a concern for usability. The only one that I've seen mentioned is xscribble. It's characters are similar to Palm's graffiti, but not exactly the same. I don't know how well it works in general, but on the Agenda VR3d, it needs a little work.
Speed and Memory: Definitely a potential problem. A Palm responds nicely at ~16MHz (don't know for sure). Linux needs a little more power. VR3 is using a 66MHz processor, but it's not as responsive as a Palm. The beta kernels/roms do improve this. They also need a lot more memory to run well. Not a problem for the highend PDA's that have 16-32MB of RAM, but for the VR3 with 8MB, it might be a problem.
Portability: I haven't ported anything myself, but others have. How easy it is will depend on the program. The limitations of a PDA (small screen, less colors) can make it harder to directly port. On the other hand, programs written for the VR3d can easily be compiled to run on an x86 box.
Open source: I'm not sure if this was mentioned before or not. A linux PDA with flash memory can be customized. Compile your own kernel and applications. If you don't like the way the Planner works, you can modify it for yourself. You can't do this for other PDA's.
Free software: This goes with being open source. If you've ever looked through the Palm program archives, there are many shareware apps that cost about 10 bucks each. While some of those might be worth the money, many are not. A linux PDA encourages developers to write free software. This will certainly benefit the end user.
The future of Linux in the PDA world is far from certain. It's quite possible that it will lose to Palm's near monopoly on cheap PDA's. It could, on the other hand, do far better than Palm ever will. It really depends on how many people will support Linux in the handheld environment.
On a side note... I've repeatedly seen people calling the Linux PDA's vaporware. Some might be, but I have one sitting in front of me. Sure, it hasn't been officially released, but it is definitely real.
Anybody who claims that C is "damn easy to learn" is either a troll or has forgotten the first time they tried to work with 2-D arrays.
Either that or they've never tried Python.
http://www.python.org
There's even a port of Python 1.5.2 for Palm OS (though it's alpha software).
http://www.isr.uci.edu/projects/sensos/python/
-DA
It will be interesting to see what happens next with PDA/NBCs. In the days of DOS and UNIX, nobody thought that in 2001, we'd be mixing music tracks, and watching movies allwhile posting messages on a worldwide community (thank you /. !) The next big innovations in PDA technology will likely be just as stunning. These kind of advances (re: Linux-based OS) only open new door for creative minds to experiment with new ideas. Beyond this, the main barrier seems to be the display. The only thing fast processors are necessary for are real-time gaming and those who have no patience. Or those cutting edge tech freaks ;-)
...and PERL !!! (lameness filter? it's an acronym...:)
"Ummmm..."
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Loser.
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Firstly, you obviously don't run X so forget that straw-man. Secondly, no-one's claiming every app in the universe will run, or that every app will run on a 256k PALM. What I said was that you've got a decent shot at an app working out of the box. That's obviously constrained by screen size, memory and so forth but there are plenty of tiny apps, some of them GTK, some of the command-line (so what, I like command line) that have got a decent shot at working. Why not???
The statement made about programming in only C or C++ for CE is wrong. You can get SDKs that plug into Visual Basic and write apps for CE with it. Not that I would want to. You can do the same with VB and Palm for that matter. Just thought I would note that. Has
futang futang!
I think this is a sign of good things to come. I have already seen mp3 players run by linux. It will bring more feature rich, open products to users. As for the programming I think being able to program in languages you already know would greatly invrease the amount of software and applications that are for the particular device.
I can't comment on Palm programming, although I've heard it is fairly easy.
;)
However, I have downloaded the Visual Basic WinCE Dev kit, and it works quite well. Visual Basic, since version 5, has had the ability to compile to native x86 code. However, it still retains the p-code mode, which is very beneficial on PDA devices. You get this fairly complex program and it takes only a few K. It has a full emulation environment, where you can simulate different screens, etc.
If timothy finds VB too hard of a language to program in.... well..... Seek help
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Sure it will be. But then again, how many applications are you really going to want on such a device?
The storage limitation is part and parcel for that sort of hardware - and it's the same issue no matter what OS you use.
"That old saw about the early bird just goes to show that the worm should have stayed in bed."
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Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
I am currently working on a thesis where I am going to analyze a pocket PC game I develop for power consumption issues. My biggest complaint is that the most sophicated OS for these devices is windows CE, and that platform is a real big pain to program for. For example, to run emulation for my pocket PC programs, I need to have the embedded Visual C++ SDK and windows 2000. There is no other operating system that will run the emulator. So, now I have to go through the process of installing another whole OS just to do development on one program. Having a linux friendly platform would really help me. I could develop using Linux, I wouldn't have to use Microsoft Frustration Classes or the rather complex Win32 API. In addition, my school teaches programming exclusively in a Unix type of environment, and I believe that a lot of other schools do as well. Programming for linux would certainly be an easier transition for someone like myself who just want to do a small amount of development for the pocket PC platform.
Without a doubt Python is my scripting language of choice, but I agree with the post suggesting that the API's you have to work with are more important as they determine how much work you have to do to make your program run.
As for the post suggesting that one doesn't want to program on the PDA, I would agree. In general you want to create an program (even a small one) and deploy it to your PDA. But if you ever wanted to program it would be a scripting language rather than something like Java.
Which, for various reasons, are unavailable, not favoured or simply not acceptable to many of the best and brightest, and many of the rest of us as well.
Obligatory flames from VB victims aside, anyone that can code well, can code well under linux. It's a programmers system from the ground up, that's its strength, and its weakness.
The success of a platform like this will directly depend on the the manufacturer getting them into the hands of the right hackers ASAP.
"That old saw about the early bird just goes to show that the worm should have stayed in bed."
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Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
Mod this up! Smalltalk is by far the EASIEST language to learn and use. The only complaint I have of pst is that the systrap stuff makes some of the code less elegant as I would like. There's no language out there you can get started in under 20 minutes and finish a full blown pda app in under an hour.
Handwriting recognition is being worked on:p ng
:) We're currently reworking the algorithm to have a shot at Kanji recognition.
http://www.patentburner.com/~overcode/glyphrec.
Not quite usable yet, but pretty soon handwriting recognition will not be a problem under Linux. Several other projects have also written recognizers, but this one outperforms all of the ones I've seen. It requires very little memory (5k code, 20k database). And it's GPL
As for graphics output, the Linux framebuffer console does a great job, and it's a standard part of the kernel.
Today's PDA's are pretty damn powerful -- many have 32-bit processors (often MIPS- or SH3-based), and at least 8 megs of RAM. The MIPS kernel certainly needed some modifications to run on handhelds, but it's still recognizably Linux, as evidenced by some of the applications it's already running.
-John
Agreed.. For that matter, there's also the framebuffer GTK project which allows you to run GTK apps WITHOUT the need for X at all.. nice =)
-andy
I was in Japan last month and saw the current device. Sharp is going to put Linux on it and so their engineering group doesn't have to rewrite the whole app bundle designed for the specific Japanese market. IMHO, the device doesn't bring anything new to the PDA trend. The lower part of the unit slides and a really tiny keyboard is revealed. The keys are so small on it that even Japanese kids will find it hard to use. Sharp is just trying to play the Linux hipe because they don't have anything to lose as far as US market shares. And true, Palm and HandSpring are pretty aggressive at market penetration overseas (Japan and also Europe.) The only trouble with the PalmOS is Input method (you have to enter the graffiti roman syllables to obtain kanas and kanjis, I hate it compared to the hand writting recognition on WinCE.) I was surprised while I was there to find out that the iPaq 36x0 is not imported currently in Japan and that people were bashing really hard on the new Sony Transmeta chip (WARUI = BAD !) Lastly, the devel env for Palm and WinCE is not bad at all. I wonder what the author of this post complains about. Did he ever try to build a toolchain to get Helloworld to compile for the iPag running Linux? I wonder... PPA
-- I feel better now. Thanks for asking.
Just to knock the nay sayers, I live in Japan and was just down inthe electronics district where these things have been on sale for about a month.
Gee, my Palm Pilot Professional has its entire OS in 40k. What kind of OS load is Linux going to put on a PDA?
DB
I know this is slightly offtopic but it is a cool link nonetheless, geek.com has PDA horror stories. People smash, drown, blow up, run over and do otherwise nasty and unadulerated things to their Palm's. It was quite addicting, I spent most of my day at work reading the stories. Which reminds me I need to pick up a good case! The link is http://www.geek.com/pdageek/pdahorror/. -Pat
Don't forget that PocketLinux 1.0 has recently been released, and MobileLinux, from Transmeta (Linus and crew) is supposedly going to be publically released within the next week! I see 3 major PDA linux distros rising to power:
1. PocketLinux
2. MobileLinux
3. Yopy's Linux
Will a Linux OS for PDAs splinter or will the various distros eventually merge? Time will tell.
Apparently MS Transscriber is a feature-reduced version of Calligrapher, who which IIRC is a licensee of the famed Newton HWR! If you try their java demo (not working right now) it's damned accurate... I may have to switch to CE just to get that awesome Newton HWR I miss so much from my MP2100... Now if they could just port this to linux we'd have a serious contender on our hands!
Third party programmers showed their stuff on the proprietary, restrictive Palm platform, just watch what they'll do under handheld Linux.
One question, however, is whether the all-important corporate market will buy into a Linux handheld device, or be scared away by its open-endedness.
isn't it better to program on a pc or laptop? i don't think they are powerful enough for the 'real' programming. plus, their sizes are not convenient to work on for hours.
I think that it's not the OS that holds back the apps but just the sheer almost uselessness of PDA's that's the bugbear.
.oO0Oo.
What cool apps could there be?
you only really need address book and note taker.
Beyond that there are games - gameboy style
the rest of the stuff ppl are on aout mp3, movies are waiting for processor power & ram & battery life not Linux
Personally I reckon that something like Inferno http://www.vitanuova.com is a better choice. Specialist Computers need specialist tools not universal tools. Mind you Inferno runs on plenty of platforms, uses byte code & a common architecture. It's an abstracted OS. Kind of Java but with a standard graphical environment too.
It's coming soon to the Ipaq & SH3/4
Limbo - it's language - is simple & powerful and is write once run anywhere
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The problems for Palm and CE devices so far is the limit of easy to use programming languages which makes it difficult for a novice to write even an basic progam (I don't know C or C++).
Um, you can program CE devices in VB. See VBCE. Before Sun sued Microsoft you could also use java. I think MSJVM 1.1 still runs on CE devices.
I especially like the spreadsheet function which is what I nearly use all the time. The "database" (ahum, how dare I say it) is terrible: anything than a simple table is impossible.
Since I'm a coder I looked at OPL. It is a BASIC-like laguage and you can have a lot of fun with PEEK and POKE ;-) Reminds me my BASIC days. The PDF's documentation is good and is easily downloadable from somewhere on the psion site. (Sorry, no link, I'm at work right now)
I wrote some small tools that I needed, but programming for this thing is nearly impossible for larger projects. Any PDA development platform should come with an emulator for a full-grown PC: "develop on PC and deploy on PDA" (I saw this "slogan" somewhere in previous comments)
I saw the Revo (a workmate has it) and was very impressed. Most of my workmates have Palms, which are very flashy (Play Simcity during meetings!), but I think they come with too few standard software....yes I miss the spreadsheet! I saw you could buy some, but I was spoiled by Psion....So there is no way that I'll buy a Palm. Pricing is about the same for the Revo and and a "nicer Palm", and except for Grafitti, it offers nearly nothing more (actually less).
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
I think Mozilla, Gtk+, Qt, and the C++ libraries are so huge because people these days write for reuse and generality, not simplicity, maintainability, space, or efficiency. I have concluded it's pointless to argue that point. Most programmers educated in the last 10 years don't even believe that they are doing anything wrong when they do that.
The Sharp machines have always been a good value and a nice form factor. I think what has held them back was their hotsyncing software and limitations on programmability.
So everything you make in Japan, good or bad, everyone is buying it. You get a hundred and twenty millions of beta testers basically. Is this going to make the product popular in the States just because of Linux on it vs. their OS? I doubt it, especially if/when the only potential buyers of the product realize that the thing doesn't have a flashable rom, and holds barely enough RAM to run a PIM.
-- I feel better now. Thanks for asking.
Er... I must have missed somthing here. I've always thought that Windows was the platform which was full of "non-programmer" languages. VB, Delphi and so forth. When did Linux become the OS which has a "bunch of great languages?". I've just moved from a mainly Solaris/Linux development environment to a 98/NT one, so I'm not as "in the know" as I used to be about such things. Please enlighten me, what have I missed? Which languages are you talking about?
Anyway if you get bored with EPOC on your Psion, you could try Linux ;-)
For about $250.00 you can have a nifty(yes nifty) little Personal Data Assistant. What is the point? I carry a pen, a small spiral bound pad and my watch does the math for me. What INHERENT use does a PDA have that one should shell out $250.00? More importantly, why run Linux on one? Where are you going to be multitasking, and what? Please do not say games, the world wastes too much time on them anyway. Zoomshorts
By the way this isnt Sharp's first attempt those of s that were taken by the early Windows CE craze might remeber the Sharp mobilion, This is how ever Sharp's first Up right palm device were as the mobilion never grew past the huge Palm-Top orgenizer that Windows CE Devices were.
I personaly would like to handle one before giving it praise.
GPF : The program Win.exe has caused an erorr in
Linux on a PDA isn't all about squeezing the desktop environment into a tiny computer. I have a Psion 5mx myself, and I'm constantly amazed at all the nifty touches. The screen is fully utilized-the menu is for example only visible when you use it. When you don't, you sure don't want to throw away those pixels.
No open-source GUI I've seen addresses the PDA specific issues. Gnome or KDE on a PDA would require a lot of tweaking. Psion has 15 years of experience in making handhelds-how can Linux possibly catch up?
It's an honest question, I'd really like to see good Linux-based PDA GUIs, but until now it all seems too focused on the "cool" features.
I have a PocketPc. I've never had to reboot it. I've never had corrupted files. I'll agree with imcompatablities, but you've always got that (the box says version x or higher, and I have x-1).
As far as having no control, Out of the box maybe not, but with some 3rd party apps, I'm doing just fine there too.
I don't necessarily like Microsoft. But I don't think you should spread FUD about them. Slashdot users and linux users are always complaining about microsoft spreading FUD about linux, well, if you don't like it, don't spread FUD about microsoft.
I might have not minded so much if you had written, "I have a WINCE device, and IM used to restarting all the time, etc etc..."
Don't speak for all of us.
Interesting, but...
Look at the various Symbian-produced EPOC boxes. Lovely things - I've got a Psion 5 and I'd never go back to a Palm III.
They also come with OPL as standard - I've not played with it much but it's apparently pretty much BASIC. So, well known and pretty simple.
Yet how many people use them?
The argument that availability of programming tools to hackers is the critical factor in success may swing well to a Linux-focussed crowd, but it's wrong I'm afraid. Hackers simply aren't a large enough percentage of the userbase, while most non-hackers don't know how to get the software they've written. Don't believe me? Find a non-techie with a Palm, look at what's on it and be amazed.
The critical factor remains price. How low can you go while still being acceptably usable. Palms are borderline acceptable (IMO) but also very cheap. Psions are orders of magnitude superior and more capable - and come with the apparently critical programming tool preinstalled - yet remain a niche player, largely because they're dearer. You have to play with the things for a while to understand why a Palm isn't as good as a Psion - and why the Psion is genuinely worth the doubled price - but most people won't do that, so buy the Palm.
What still baffles me is why people then buy Palm Vs. Clearly less capable than Psions, you can spot that a mile off. Also a similar cost. Yet I see more Palm Vs than IIIs and m100s as a rule. Weird.
Greg
(Inside a nuclear plant)
Aaaarrrggh! Run! The canary has mutated!
This is Funny or Offtopic. But not Informative. Moderator, read the link before moderate.
MOD THE CHILD UP!
Remember Samsung's promise to the Linux world, the Yopy? I haven't heard of it ever since its first dose of Slashdot FUD.
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
As an ex Psion user now a Palm user I'll admit that the thing that I miss most is the OPL and filing system of the Psion. The OPL is a neat language that is simple and quite powerful and very like BASIC (that's not necessarily a bad thing as its simple to learn even for beginners).
The filing system meant that I could transfer standard files between work and home on the Psion and view/edit a fair few of them with the standard apps.
The bad thing about Psion right now is that you are locked to Windows as the desktop computer due to a lack of software to transfer/convert the documents produced in its word/sheet programs.
The Palm will talk to anything and yes it is more limited in both memory and screen and software but the larger Palm market means that there is more professionaly written software out in the market.
You're looking at this from the wrong persective. Ultimately, any hardware platform lives or dies based on the size of the third party development community. The availability of a mainstream OS running on a PDA, with widely available programming tools, instantly makes it easy to develop for -- not just by hackers, but by small independent software houses. And that is what could make this a great success. Plus, of course, Sharp have a long history of getting it right when it comes to portable computing. Their PC-1500 from the mid-80s was way ahead of its time, comparable to Psion's early efforts several years later.
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
The good news here is, with Linux loaded on a Zarus we should be able to use any of the great languages that Linux already supports to flood that market with good software
/.ers think.
The 'good software' needs a diet. Mozilla is an example of some code needing a diet if your target is a PDA. Almost ALL code 'written today' could use a diet if your target is a PDA.
No one will care about the Zarus if it doesn't ship with useable software. People want a useable device. If the product is not useable, few will buy it. Adding 'linux' to a product is no magic pixie dust, even though that seems to be the way a large number of
If it was said on slashdot, it MUST be true!
I mean as long as the thing remembers my addresses and appointments, it doesn't really matter to me what OS runs it. "Linux Inside" would not be a selling point for a PDA for me personally.
http://microwindows.org/ has an X-like API. GTk is being ported t it.
Java's strength is its bundled API.
Neither of these may be as neat as the competition right now, but they have neat headroom TM
The more important advantage of microwindows is simplifying ports of linux desktop apps. Its easier to move them to a linux PDA than PalmOS.
Perl?
Ruby?
Python?
Haskell?
E-Lisp? :-)
In the course of every project, it will become necessary to shoot the scientists and begin production.
You know last time I walked through the PDA section at compUSA I didn't see anything from sharp. In fact I can't think of any PDA I've ever seen from sharp so how did they become a "PDA Giant"??? I think a better description would be "Big company that happens to make PDAs but nobody buys them"
Maybe we could get Apple to open-source the Newton Toolkit, the granddaddy of all handheld OSs.
www.lucernesys.comHorizon: Calendar-based personal finance
A beowulf cluster of these?
Ok I'll never say that again, I promise
Are you lonely? Hate having to make decisons? Meetings, the practical alternitive to work.
It also makes life easier for programmers of custom internal apps. Say you have a complex set of objects implementing your business rules in Python, Java, C++, or whatever. If you want to add handheld support using PalmOS, you have to either reimplement all of them in Palm C/C++, or keep the handheld an idiot that understands nothing of the objects and just have it talk to a server program that runs on a full OS and does understand the business objects. With a Linux PDA, the port would be much easier since the objects can probably run on it.
It doesn't matter *how* cool it is. Once it gets to Sharp USA, it'll be another hunk of junk like the Zaurus-5800, the Mobilon, and every *other* attempt in the PDA market that Sharp USA does. If Sharp Japan was in charge of the marketing and design of the device in the USA then I think we *would* see something very cool. However, all Sharp USA does is take something that is very cool, and castrate it of all of it's best technological and ergonomic features before selling it to the masses in this country. A perfect example *is* the Zaurus. In Japan the Zaurus looks like a PADD out of Star Trek. It's color, it has excellent HWR (handwriting recognition) and it has a development kit available and dozens (if not hundreds) of software titles available for it. The US marketing group gets their hands on the name Zaurus and what do they do: They design an anemic little semi-Wizard POS with NO HWR, NO SDK, NO color... and the list of NO's goes on and on. I will *never* recommend a Sharp product to anyone *ever*.
Remember: From dull minds come Sharp products
Polymorphism -- It's what you make of it.
With a conventional computer, I agree wholeheartedly. In the main, people use them so that they can run bits of software. They don't want to run Windows, they want to run Office and Unreal: Tournament.
With a PDA I'm far less convinced. From what I see, the majority of users treat them, pretty much, as electronic organsers with a backup facility. They already have the diary, the address book, the calculator and the memopad. What more could you want in your pocket?
Note here I'm not saying it's all I want or even need in _my_ pocket - but I'm a computer nerd who's prepared to play and investigate. I also know what's possible. I'm far from convinced any of that is true for the average user - it's just this cute little gadget which sits in their pocket and looks flashier than a diary. Maybe it can even play Tetris or solitaire. Hence Palms win - they look good enough in the shops and they're cheap. Which results in the extra software being written as they get into a larger userbase, some of which includes hackers. Later the hackers may buy them due to the extra software - but that's more due to the Network Effect than greater availability of the relevant tools. You can't get better than 100% availability...
Maybe there's some research out there which can settle this, but from my experience third party software really isn't an issue for the average end user as they don't know there's any for any of them - so what does it matter that there's more for one than another?
Greg
(Inside a nuclear plant)
Aaaarrrggh! Run! The canary has mutated!
Sorry to dissapoint but linux is primarily a c/c++ platform. Thats what its written in. What languages were you thinking of writing apps in? Sure you can write a ton of garbage in Lisp, Scheme, Adda but these languages arent at the heart of linux or even Unix. Some CS major was bored one day and decided to port them. I guess Tcl is a "linux language" but Im sorry to tell you it seriously sucks. I guess linux is a good perl platform but tcl and perl are scripting languages so who the hell is going to write games in them. Linux is a much more programmer friendly system then palm or ce but its primarily a c/c++ system even it java support is shit. I do all my java in code warrior but that getting of the topic.
With a Linux PDA what will you get? A PDA with themes so users can make their PDA look just like Palm or just like CE? What will the selling point of this new PDA be? More apps because there are more available languages. Ooh, I can run over 10,000 shitty perl, tcl, java, python, insert your favorite shell script, insert your favorite language here apps to track my kids birthdates on my Linux PDA, how many can you run? Only 100? Haha, Palm sux0rs, Hail Linux!
'Same speed C but faster'
*yawn*
(OK, so if you want to jump through some hoops, you actually can get an Agenda, but we still have nothing ready for prime time.)
--
Sleep is just a poor substitute for caffeine, anyway. -Bob Lehmann
They have software to compress DVD movies to VCD size (DivX ?) and then just press copies of the CDs at their hearts content.
The players sell for about 40usd so you can imagine many people in Mexico City play these things... I dont have one yet, but I see them all the time in the markets and the quality looks (at least) as good as VHS.
------
C'mon, flame me!
No sig for the moment.
I have an older model before they could run linux, one of the few released in the states. It is great, although power runs out quickly.. thats what you get f or having something as powerful as a palm in 95'
I tried to find information for using my much older model in linux, it has a minicom-like serial terminal which is nice (real serial port!). I found there newer models in japan.. they sound like they run linux quite well already from user support!
would love to have one in america!
But we're not talking about a quick script here.....we're talking about an application...
and anyway....C IS easy.....if you can't grasp C, then you don't have much chance with many other lanuages....C is so simple that it's almost a pure representation of structured programming principals.
(Note, i'm not saying that if you don't know C that you have problems, only if after making a serious attempt to learn it, you cant get it)
I think what the original poster really meant when he said there was no easy language, was that there was no language that he already knew. I'm sure that if he knows other languages, and was serious about wanting to program for palm or CE devices, that he would be able to pick up one up pretty quick.
Advanced users are users too!
A PERL interpretor would be required if it uses PERL. C/C++ is about the only way to go. We just need to get a nice devel kit for Linux!
The problems for Palm and CE devices so far is the limit of easy to use programming languages which makes it difficult for a novice to write even an basic progam (I don't know C or C++).
I know its unpopular to suggest software based on Microsoft technology, but you might consider that AppForge now lets you write applications for PalmOS devices in the Visual Basic environment. IMHO, VB certainly qualifies as an easy to use programming language. With the newest release, its now easy to set up a conduit with to an ODBC data source as well.
I don't think cost is the huge factor here. The market for these devices right now is primarily composed of people who could easily afford to pay more. Using your example, look at how many more people paid the ~$100 to get a Palm V rather than a functionally equivalent but larger/uglier Palm III. This identifies the market as one that places high value on form factor and appearance, and one that doesn't flinch at an extra $100.
Hi,
..It's just that everyone already has palms. I'd have to steal my friend's unit for a bit longer to try it out more but I found the keyboard very small. Not sure if it would allow faster input than Graffiti on Palm, which I find too error-prone (obviously that part is my fault) and slow (limited by recognition speed).
We just had the PalmSource show in Japan last week and a bunch of people came from California. It was huge, over a thousand people here.
Getting into Palm development myself, I still drool over the Zaurus. The Zaurus has a gorgeous screen, freehand kanji entry, a landscape web browser, and if you try a little game that comes with it where you corral lots of flying stars with your stylus you will realize that it is really a fast and rich experience. I mean arcade-style animation. Not sure if that is in Java or not, I would expect optimized C.
Seriously that one little game application is to die for, very sexy and I am not a gamer.
The Palm I was told has something called Google Pen for kanji stroke input, haven't tried it yet.
But if localized as-is into English language only, I'd think the Zaurus would be pretty popular in the U.S.
But I could totally see telnetting in and doing something useful on the BIG, high-resolution, high-contrast, gorgeous Zaurus screen with that keyboard. In terms of useability (comparing the latest version of Palmscape to Zaurus web browser, it felt like the screen was 2-3 times the size and maybe twice the resolution.
Though I wanted to do gcc based development I had to buy CodeWarrior for PalmOS (with $100 show discount still about $200 for Japanese v6) because it is what everyone is using and I heard the Sony CLIE SDK requires it. CW 6 Japanese is used because 7 English is unstable for Japanese environment still.
Seriously I would not discount anything on the Zaurus platform. They have been doing it for a long time in Japan, it's just that their flagship units have suddenly gotten a lot cheaper. Also memory is getting cheaper too.. those stamp sized SD chips are 64MB and 128MB now, and they said 1GB on a static-free, chicklet-like package could be reality next year. SD based hardware prototypes we saw actually had memory and executables inside the hardware which took over the device when snapped on, so I wouldn't be surprised if it gets easy to carry a bunch of linux distros in your pocket.
I was just about to say that if Zaurus supported that you know what my Christmas list would be, but looking into the next cubicle I just found out the Zaurus actually does support SD memory chips, plus it has another slot for a quarter-size wireless cartridge and "maybe" microdrive hd. Time to do some more research..
Anyone have one with more info? Maybe someone else has more experience with Palm in Japan as well; my Clie has an initial version of ATOK (kanji front end processor) but there are apparently 2 more levels as well.
I know nobody will read this by now, but Psion has emulators for some of their machines: check out http://www.psion.com/downloads/pc/"> http://www.psion.com/downloads/pc/
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)