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Adobe Threatens KIllustrator Over Name
Moritz Moeller - Her writes: "Evidently Adobe -- yes the Adobe that has not ported a single application apart from its PDF Reader to Linux -- sees a threat in KDE. They claim that the Koffice vector based drawing program Killustrator violates their trademark for Adobe Illustrator. Here is the mail on koffice-devel. The company demands 2500 EUR from the developer, maybe someone can help with the legal expenses here? The web site for Killuistrator has been put down for the moment.
Shouldn't generic descriptive terms like 'explorer,' 'illustrator' 'word' and 'paint' be free for all to use? Nobody called the program Kadobe! I think it is time for some pressure on Adobe ... "
Because as we all know *sucks.com sites are protected speech.
According to this mail, they have trademark on "Adobe Illustrator". I would bet that Illustrator is too general word to be trademarked. For example Microsoft hasn't been able to trademark "Windows".
Who wouldn't, given the obvious positive qualities of the name and the fact that no one else had used it? It's a great brand name. It evokes professionalism, something almost all of Illustrator's competitors lack anyway...
Adobe isn't trying to tromp all over the KIllustrator project, it's trying to defend it's name from a clear competitor. Open Source developers need to consider these issues when they name their projects - if KIllustrator was named "The KDE Vector Drawing Application (KVDA)", there would be no issue.
While generic words like "illustrator", "explorer" and "word" cannot be enforced against things that have no chance of generating consumer confusion (or Gateway would own the St. Louis arch and half of your network infrastructure), creating a vector drawing application named KIllustrator, or as mentioned above, a word processing program named KWord DOES infringe. CHANGE THE NAME AND QUIT THE PRACTICE. Be original - I would prefer to see more unique titles on Freshmeat every day rather than the constant flow of knock-offs.
Face it, just about every word is generic. If we want to play with the big boys (which we seem to, since we like corporate sponsorship, pretty websites, and market share), there are rules that must be abided by. Please just use common sense - there is much more of this to come.
This is where Stallman was a genius. Call it "KNI", you guessed it, KNI is Not Illustrator. Then there is no confusion. Now I don't want to see any Python jokes.
Why bother going after Killustrator? Adobe should be worried more about GIMP. Gimp has been around for a long time and really is to the point now that alot would argue it is better than Photoshop. Now of course Adobe wouldn't be able to pursue Gimp on any trademark grounds, but I'm sure Adobe probably has some patents kicking around somewhere that could hurt Gimp. I hope it never happens, but the fine folk working on Gimp should be prepared for the worst (cause the Adobe beast appears to be awake). As for KIllustrator, I never used it my self, but I understand it is a good program. I guess my thought on that is if Adobe is arguing trademark dealing with the name "KIllustrator" just change the name. No sence in wasting money. Might as well appease Adobe for now; save your money for when they start arguing patents.
Hmmm...now this really opens up a can of worms. What should an open source project do? I don't think changing the project name is enough. What happens if someone wants to trademark our project's new name? Do we trademark the open-source project names? If so, then in what country? All of them, or do registered trademarks carry across international borders? (I know trademark law does, but I don't think trademarks themselves do). You could really harass a lot of open-source projects by trademarking their names.
They would probably sue you for your Auto Repair and probably win. The McDonalds mark is one of the strongest in existence.
KMacWrite
KMacPaint
KBBEdit
etc.?
Adobe's days are numbered, anyway, and rightfully so.
~~~
KIllustrator has been out for a while with that name, and if anyone at Adobe knew of the program and the name and has not acted until now, they may have lost the right to claim infringement.
I tend to agree that trademark protection is a Good Thing (what if Microsoft came out with "Minux"?) but it is often taken a bit too far. Still, I don't know that I see much value in insisting on the name KIllustrator.it might be possible to do something like what Walter Taylor did when he was prevented from using Taylor in the name of his vinyard and make the splash screen show the word KIllustrator all scribbled out and overlaid with the new name.
You are wrong - at least in the United States. From the USPTO Trademark Search Site:
Word Mark: ILLUSTRATOR
Goods and Services:
IC 009. US 021 023 026 036 038. G & S: computer software for use in graphic design, desktop publishing, electronic publishing, printing, artistic and technical drawing, creating fonts and typefaces, and special graphical and textual effects; computer software containing clip art, and typefaces; and users' manuals and instructional books sold as a unit therewith.
FIRST USE: 19861215. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19861215
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 74731075
Filing Date September 19, 1995
Published for Opposition February 18, 1997
Registration Number 2060488
Registration Date May 13, 1997
Owner (REGISTRANT) Adobe Systems Incorporated CORPORATION CALIFORNIA
1585 Charleston Road P.O. Box 7900 Mountain View CALIFORNIA 94039
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Attorney of Record Lynne E. Graybeal
Prior Registrations 1479408
Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL-2(F)
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE
Anything else Killistrator could have stood for?
It's very true that patents/trademarks are being abused a lot these days, but in this case the KIllustrator name is ACTUALLY confusing. Common word or not, "Illustrator", in drawing programs, equals a quality product.
Adobe did work a long time for that connection, and even though it may help users figure out what the program is meant to do, it's pretty much like advertising a product to the Linux community that you say is "OGPL licensed", which has nothing to do with GPL (the "O" carries with it terms such as giving up your firstborn and your soul), but you wanted to keep the name similar to GPL so people would recognize it was a license of some sort.
In their purest and most proper forms, trademarks and patents DO protect companies and products from people trying to save time on brand-building. They are not categorically wrong out of the gate.
Besides, if you make something really that good for an audience that has no other alternatives, you could name it "P1-588" and it would still be popular. The free ride on KIllustrator is ending, but if it's really that good, a defiant name change will make it more widely known.
::activates information leafblower::
::deactivates::
The first generation of Power Macs had these development codenames: The 6100 was Piltdown Man, the 7100 was Carl Sagan, and the 8100 was Cold Fusion. Note that #1 and #3 are famous hoaxes. Carl Sagan was not happy about the implications and demanded that his name be removed. Apple changed the codename to BHA, told him it was "random letters", and Sagan backed off. Later it became known, probably not directly from Apple, that BHA stood for Butt Head Astronomer.
In this case "Illustrator" is a very accurate description of what the program does. That can be a defense against a trademark infringement suit. The word "adobe" is common, but not in relation to software. "Adobe" is not a descriptive term and bears no relation to what the software company does.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Even commercial products aren't original, compare Microsoft Office
Exactly what is wrong with the K Desktop Environment appending a K if everyone else appends their company name?
Personally, I think KDE Office sounds better than KOffice. But that's not my decision :)
Perhaps Adobe shouldn't have chosen to make a brand out of such a generic word?
"Dodge" is a fairly common word, yet do you believe you could get away by starting a car company named "Dodger"
No, but I expect that you can have 'Ford Motor company', 'General Motors', 'American Motor Corp.' etc. coexist quite nicely. Some how, millions of brand loyal car buyers have managed to not be confused for all of these years. How about 'Kmart' and 'Walmart'?
So, Wal-mart, K-mart: Adobe Illustrator, K Illustrator.
This is seen as a significant advance in helping users find the programs they want.
In related news, the programmer formerly known as "Linus Torvalds" will henceforth be known as "Kbill Kgates" . . .
:)
hawk
The name of the product does not benefit greatly from the inclusion of the competing product's own name in it's moniker.
How would you describe benefit? There might be some extra mindshare but was there any monetary benefit? Its hard to put a dollar figure on mindshare. I think we can safely say the developer didn't make any money selling copies of his Adobe Illustrator Knockoff.
"What are the three words guaranteed to humiliate men everywhere?
In Republican America phones tap you.
Rather than trying to convince the trademark offices that various words shouldn't be trademarked, why can't the various open-source projects come up with more original project names? I'm sick of seeing KOffice and thinking to myself, "Oh, it's just a clone of MS Office" or seeing "GAIM" and thinking to myself, "Oh, it's a GTK version of AIM." KDE seems to be the worst offender in this category.
Not only will you avoid these types of pointless lawsuits, but you'll stop enforcing the MegaCorp's brand strength and start developing some for Linux apps. Pick an original name and quit crying when someone gives you a little legal nudge over your blatant copying of their property.
I agree completely. We need to go beyond merely providing functional software and get serious on the feel good factor of Free Software.
In general, we should agree on one unified brand along the lines of Win(dows) and Mac. 'Open' or 'Free' might be good, but probably already under claims of various sorts. KDE or to a lesser degree GNU would be ok.
For your next project name, please try to refrain from using the letters x, k or g, recursive acronyms, and geek humor in general.
Instead, try to pick something a little more uplifting. If appropriate, you can decorate your name with some qualifier at the end. What we need now is apps that fit names like KDE Aspire Pro. GNU ManageImpact. OpenImpress Developer edition. KDE Transcend Enterprise. You get the idea.
The SVG standard is an open, standard format. While many open source programs may use this format, this does not mean that it is an Open Source standard, nor does it tie a licensing model to the concept. If anything, I would say that SVG will gain more from Adobe than vice-versa.
People will be more likely to use a format if it is supported by standard tools like Illustrator. Illustrator could use a proprietary format and it wouldn't be a problem for anyone at Adobe.
All very good and true, my only problem is suing for money when killustrator didn't damage their business.
They don't have a Illustrator version for linux, killustrator isn't in the same league as illustrator (yet) and so I think a letter demanding a name change would sufice...
This kind of bulling is stupid and doesn't help Corel at all...
No law is global yet (see the Pinochet case). If John MCDonald, living in Scotland was to open up a burger bar called McDonald's there is nothing that McDonald's US can do about it. Under local law he is entitled to use his name and in doing so cannot be infringing any trademark. If he was to put a big golden M outside he would be dragged away kicking and screaming as that M is a registered trademark. If John McDonald called his burger bar Burger King he would get closed down straight away. If he was to call it by a name that is not used yet in the UK but turned out to be the same as a US conpany and then that US conpany started up over here then he would still be safe.
A good example of this is Budwieser . The US company has been trying to shut down the Czech beir company for years. It has tried to buy them out and everything but the US company has not got a leg to stand on. The Czech company makes better beer and is older. Makes a mockery of the label "genuine Budweiser" when the Czech company is actually the genuine Budweiser 8-)
I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
It's possible that they're being good guys here...
We all recognize that they have to protect their trademark -- maybe they're saying "We have to protect our trademark, but we don't particularly want to be jerks to the Linux community, SOOO how about we sell you the right to use the name for a relatively small sum of money.
As far as the "Common words can't be trademarked" argument -- phooey. Wouldn't Dodge complain if another car maker started selling a "Viper," VW if somebody started to make a "Beetle" or NBC if ABC started a TV show called "Friends"?
Common words can be trademarked as long as you're not trying to trademark an existing usage -- to my knowledge, computer drawing programs had never been called "Illustrators" prior to Adobe/Aldus, just as there had never been a TV show called "Friends" prior to the ABC show. However, nobody would rationally be able to trademark the term "6 o'clock news" for their evening newscast, because it had been common to use that phrase to generically describe the local news that happens at 6pm. Presumably, however, if somebody wanted to obtain a trademark on a computer program named "6 o'clock news," that would be legitimate.
Listen to you, maybe it is time to rename
- X11 Windows to X11 fenestra
- Abiword,kword should be called differently
- open office shoud be called open bureau
GNU is not allowed either. Contains Unix (tm). And it even uses it recursively, your honor! Unlimited damages are appropriate!
:-)
--
Moritz
::shrug:: It depends on how you define "market".
If you use a broad definition: "vector drawing tools", then yes, they fall in the same market.
If you define the markets a *little* more specifically: "vector drawing tools for linux", "free vector drawing tools", "vector drawing tools for Windows/MacOS" or "commercial vector drawing tools", they don't fit into the same market at all.
Adobe produces no vector drawing software for Linux (AFAIK they cancelled their only Linux-based project, which was a port of Pagemaker (?) ) - so in the Linux market, their product doesn't fit. AFAIK, KIllustrator doesn't run under Windows or MacOS (with the possibility of OSX as an exception) - so it doesn't fit into Adobe's market.
The two seem fairly well seperated to me =)
At the time Adobe registered "Adobe Illustrator", there was an existing registration for "PC Illustrator" in the same field. A few years later the "PC Illustrator" mark expired and was not renewed. A few years after that, Adobe registered just plain "Illustrator". This sequence of events suggests that "Illustrator" is sufficiently weak that any prefix or postfix, except pluralisation, may be sufficient in the eyes of the USPTO.
Is KIllustrator too close? Maybe, or maybe not. Most likely a court would rule against it because there is clear intent to ride the "goodwill" of the Illustrator mark. The above history might give you justification, though.
The smart thing to do here is drop KIllustrator like a hot potato and choose another name. There are much better places to spend our money establishing and changing legal precedents in favour of freedom and free software.
If I added an "s" to the end of KIllistrator, would you say then that it's a problem? Of course you would. Why do you think adding a K to the front of Illustrator is any different?
I do. First of all, there are programs that prefix themselves with gnu even though they have nothing to do with GNU, like gnutella.
Also, there is a difference between KIllustrator and Kaldera, being that "illustrator" has to do with the products function, while "Caldera" does not. I would not be opposed to a volcano-predicting program being called Caldera, because its related.
Engineering and the Ultimate
Is "XWindows" good enough? Similar issue -
"Windows" is not trademark-able.
"MS Windows" or "X Windowing System" is.
--
I'm going to write something called KMacro-windows-media player. That way, I kill 2 birds with one stone. And after all.. even negative press is good press. :)
But getting back on topic, maybe people should consider copyright infringement issues before they name their software. Being contrarian for it's own sake is silly.
The issue here is moot. Its a common name. A simple word. I could name a product "paint" and I can only assume Micros~1 will rebuttle with something. "paint" as well as "illustrate" is in the dictionary. They are words that do not point to a specific product. We more often consider them 'verbs'. Paint, illustrate, etc. If they called the product Kadobeillustrator, that would a different story, as Adobe is copywritten.
Period. There really is no weight to Adobe's argument. They can pull the "its a recognized name, so they used it..." card, but K can easily pull the "its a word... we could have called it Kstreet-light for gods' sake..". Frankly, I think its a childish attempt at press, money, and a last ditch effort because they know they should be on the Linux platform.
... until they see a true demand..
And maybe this is what they see as true demand... and the action they took, the rebuttle to said demand. I dunno, just my $.02
I mean, isnt a Ford just a F**ked Over Rebuild Dodge anyway. Thats kind of an infringement? :)
First, foremost, and most gallingly to the Slashdot-kiddie population, is that US trademark (and patent) law is based on a "use it or lose it" principle -- if, today, you fail to defend your property, you may lose the right to do so tomorrow.
This means that Adobe may not particularly care, per se, what the KDE vector-graphics product is called, but they fear the loss of their trademark more than they fear pissing off the Linux community. This does not, IMHO, make them bad or evil, just businessmen trying to hold on to the good name they've built.
Second, trademarks are not "global" in the sense that just because Ray Kroc trademarked "McDonald's" as a name for his burger chain, that doesn't prevent me from opening up a "McDonald's Auto Repair". Trademarks apply to a name or logo applied to a specific product or field of business. You better believe if I open up a roadside hamburger stand called McDonald's that the big chain is gonna land on me with both feet.
Third, what does Adobe's "Illustrator" refer to? A vector-based drawing program. What does KDE's "Illustrator" refer to? You guessed it. Similar products doing similar things means that KDE knows damn well (or should know damn well) that they're on Adobe's trademark turf.
Fourth, yes, a simple phone call might have sufficed, but a) the people who are protesting this would probably still protest even that, urging resistance and thus forcing a lawsuit anyway, and b) with reference to point 1, this may be the first real challenge Adobe's ever had on the Illustrator name, so they feel they need to act decisively to maintain their right to that name.
A final point: precedence rules over registration. This means if some guy in 1981 wrote a program called "Illustrator", not only would he have the right to continue to use the name, he might even have the right to sue Adobe to have their trademark vacated and/or assigned to him. When businesses in unrelated fields use the same name, an understanding is often reached (cf. Apple Computer/Apple Records), amicably or by litigation, that those companies will not enter each others' arenas with the same trademark (Apple Records would not, for example, be allowed to sell "Apple" computers without clearing it with Apple Computer and probably paying a license fee first).
Executive summary: Quit whining. A couple of thousand Euros is pretty damn cheap considering the goodwill that goes with the "Illustrator" name.
-- Old Man Kensey
If he waits a few weeks, it'll only be $1.25 USD :)
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=EURUSD=X&d=1b
And if we ever get an Open Source version of FrameMaker running, it ought to be called Manual Labor!
"How many light bulbs does it take to change a person?" --BMcC-->
Actually, Adobe was a relatively dead investment, hovering between $5-$9/share (split adjusted) for most of the 90s. In fact, the 2 year chart shows where they started to rise (partially based on value) and then fall (mostly based on tech crash).
Other companies do this all the time and get away with it. What about generic products that you find at the drug store? I always find things labeled
NiteTime
Compare to the active ingredients in NyQuil
Granted, NiteTime is not as close to NyQuil as KIllustrator is to Illustrator, but I am not currently at the drug store and I cannot think of a better example off the top of my head. But it seems to me that either the over the counter drug industry does not care about this kind of thing, or maybe they are just all made by the same company and they just rebadge it as generic.
My comment (thought, admittedly, not all that funny) was not at all intended to be a troll. Rather, it was intended to poke fun at Slashdot's leftist, anti-big-business (despite being one themselves...), anti-property-owner sway. Do you really think VA would hesitate to sue someone who comes out with a copy-cat product with a copy-cat name?
--
How about if you are a German developer, not American?
I was under the impression that that amount was only to cover the costs of finding out the infringement by expensive lawyers, then to change the name anyway... otherwise they will charge for a million (DM?)
What's wrong with Corel Illustrator or Microsoft Illustrator? Surely you don't believe those to be the same product as Adobe Illustrator? I sure didn't believe that Corel Draw was the same as Microsoft's MS-Draw.
Nice short-term investment outlook. Here's a different chart that shows the real quality of an investment in adobe.
AIM is not the name of AOL Instant Messenger, so your comment there should be taken back. AIM is an ackronymn, and everyone knows that you cannot trademark them...
I agree completely that KIllustrator should be changed, I don't see how it really makes much of a difference to Adobe though. They should have asked nicely and it would probably have been done... Instead they had to threaten legal action and a fine.
Get over it Adobe.
that point is totally irrelevant to the discussion.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
it seems an obvious attempt to capitalize on the name and market of adobe illustrator. I would think a simple request to change it would be first, but as many folks have stated maybe they did ask ?
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
You missed PC Illustrator.
http://tess.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=7r 1noi.2.20
filed before Adobe's
~ a low user id is no indication I have a clue what I'm talking about.
Repeat after me: You cannot patent words.
Patents are about creations & ideas. Laws that allow to patent common words are stupid. And yes, i know, the world we live in is stupid.
Sometimes I think that the /. editors took FUD lessons from Bill & company...
/. community in favor of the original author (Adobe). But since it's a Linux-friendly company that's doing the infringing, everyone wants to direct their angst at Adobe.
Please tell me why you are painting Adobe in a negative light with respect to this "story". Adobe owns the trademark to the word "Illustrator" when applied to computer graphics programs. Can you look me in the eye and tell me with a straight face that KIllustrator doesn't dilute that trademark? I didn't think so.
If Microsoft, rather than KDE, was marketing "MSIllustrator" you know that there would be a bloody outcry from the
yes.. this program is used for illustration, making pictures...
This is the problem with using english word trademarks.
It's an illustration program.. why don't we call it vektor... that way, nobody except people in the know will know what it does.
Quick reality check, how many laypeople know what a vector is?
if you would have read a few more posts deep into the thread, they've got three new names to choose from:
KDraw
Killu
VeKtor
the authors requested that the killustrator links be taken out, but the new name will be put up in it's place. new name, new URL, new everything.
Move on.
and promptly cancelled it due to lack of interest.
I did order one myself, but it was contingent on the +SGML component which would have cost me a pretty penny.
-josh
1) Time was when running Frame on anything BUT a sparcstation was Just Not Done. I think Adobe knows Unix quite well.
2) Macromedia makes some fine competing products for the mac. Buy one of their products, then tell adobe that you went to their competition.
--
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
> Maybe it will be 5 years, or maybe it will be 10, but eventually all the features in Adobe Illustrator will be available in KDE Illustrator, and that will be the end of Adobe's product.
Yes, perhaps in 10 years, KIllustrator will have all the features of a 10 year old version of Illustrator. Dunno though, I still don't see any free software as powerful as PageMaker with the features I used it for 10 years ago.
--
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
We don't dethrone by imitation. The original post asked why all the apps were copies/clones/imitations of existing software, and I attempted to answer that. I never said it was my idea.
I don't think Joe OfficeUser should use Linux, anyway. All I care about - as someone using the "Dead" linux desktop at home and work - is that I can get access to the documents I need to do my job. There are precious few, because I'm a sysadmin and live my life through xterm's and vi. Still, sometimes the boss wants a document, or a diagram. I need the ability to do that, without rebooting into Windows.
ZOMG I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS ON MACINTOSH VERSUS WINDOWS, VI VERSUS EMACS, AND HOW YOU'RE NOT A DORK
>Here's the real question, tho: Why do Window-hating Linux developers clone of Windows applications and technologies ? We have >clones of Word, Visio, TWAIN -- hell, KDE and Gnome often try to clone Windows, right down to the damnable "Start" button.
Duh. Because back when Linux resembled Unix circa 1989 - that is, it ran X w/ twm or fvwm - everyone said "It's OK, but it can't run a word processor, it doesn't have a scanner interface, or an image editor beyond 'xpaint', what a P.O.S." So the community wrote them. "But windows has better ease of use". So they riffed on familiar metaphors.
Now, its a "clone" of "damnable" technolgies. Hey, don't blame the community. The people in charge of these things - so-called pundits and experts - said this was what it took to get Linux into the enterprise, to dethrone microsoft, and to make a better world. If you want things any different, set the wayback machine for 1993, and convince the pundits otherwise. The community responded to overwhelming stimuli.
IMHO, Windows is, was and will be a clone of the Macintosh GUI. Maybe W2k and XP are sufficiently different, I would grant that, but W3.1 was a clone of mwm and cde (look at the damn window controls!), and W95-WME are clones of Mac interfaces. NT was intended to compete with Unix, and therefore borrows many familiar aspects, same with W2k.
Everyone riffs on everyone else. Face it.
ZOMG I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS ON MACINTOSH VERSUS WINDOWS, VI VERSUS EMACS, AND HOW YOU'RE NOT A DORK
Breakfast cereal giant Kellog (NYSE:KLG) has announced it is suing software developper UWE SATLER over the name he gave to one program he independently developped.
" KILLUSTATOR is a clear infringement on Kellog's intellectual property", said Kellog's legal department head Kevin T. Bains II, in a press conference. "We cannot let wanton software devellopers plunder and pillage the very essence of our corporation embodied in our trademarks".
Asked whether a software program could conceivably be confused with a breakfast cereal, Mr Bains reffered us to the public relation team head, who was not available for comment by press time.
--
Knowledge is, in every country, the surest basis of public happiness.
(although abiword may run into trouble too.)
W
-------------------
-------------------
This is my SIG. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Oh, sure, maybe most of the people who hang out on Slashdot would never make such an obvious error, but lemme tell you, there are heaps of people buying software out there who don't really have any idea of what they're buying; they're relying on word-of-mouth from people who read an article in last month's PC World.
I know this, because I sell retail software for a living.
I get people coming in asking for "Windows 2000 Millenium Edition" every day. They think they can upgrade Windows 98 to Office 2000, or that they can't run Office 2000 because they only have Windows 98. And that's the products from one company; I get people who tell me that StarOffice is Microsoft's version of Office for Linux, and still others who ask for "Adobe" -- not "Adobe Photoshop" or "Adobe Illustrator", but "Adobe". Sure, I help straighten them out (and manage to not come off as egotistical and self-absorbed in the process, unlike so many of the people posting in this thread).
But yeah, I can tell you there's a good chance that someone would buy SuSE Linux, because it includes KOffice and KIllustrator, and think they're getting away with murder because they they're not paying $400 for Adobe Illustrator and $500 for Microsoft Office.
Jay (=
Scribe was a text-document processing system.
... well, the comment was off the cuff and not researched, which I hope any final choice of anternative name would be.
...
Oops
For Killustrator, taking from another comment discussing Hershey Kisses, why not:
KDE Illustrations Software System - Kiss. Unless, of course, some trademark has already been filed for smooching software
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
You make some good points, but I think your conclusion is wrong ... not because your reasoning is wrong, but because you overlook, or perhaps just ignore, the underlying economic reality: the free software community doesn't have the money or legal resources to burn in order to fight this battle.
:-)
... descriptive and to the point. I would stop short of digging up famous specialists who are only famous in their field, but would argue no one would confuse the likes of Monet or DaVinci.
Why draw the line at Illustrator? Why hasn't MS taken issue with KWord? Maybe because it's clearly not an MS product? (Hello Adobe? Paying attention? "KIllustrator" != "Adobe Illustrator"; nobody with a shred of sense would confuse the two.) Why hasn't Corel taken issue with KPresenter or StarOffice Draw?
Somebody rein in the Adobe litigators. They seem to have too much time on their hands.
Yes, despite the nonsense pro-intellectual property zealots have been spewing, Adobe is ethically, morally, and perhaps even legally in the wrong. But, as I said before, it is a waste of our community's limited resources to persue this sort of thing in court, especially when the legal outcome is uncertain. Keep in mind that it is large corporations, of the sort Adobe is, that purchased the original trademark laws and their subsequent "enhancements." Whether or not they've actually purchased the courts is an open question, although the DeCSS and Microsoft Appeals decisions would indicate that even the judicial branch has been largely undermined.
Whatever one's personal beliefs on these issues, I think it stands to reason that our efforts would be far better spent coming up with a witty and unassailable naming scheme. It doesn't have to fit every kde app ever made, just the ones whose names are vulnerable to this sort of litigious thuggary.
Of course, (re)naming KVideoEditor Spielberg might have problems all its own.
All in all, I quite like the DaVinci, Monet, and Virgil suggestions, but one need not enforce it religiously across the entire board. Kivio could for example simply be renamed KCharts
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
And if we ever get an Open Source version of FrameMaker running, it ought to be called Manual Labor!
Or simply FBI, famous for numerous frameups of innocents for everything from subversion to murder ("Frame 'em Before Investigating")
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
Koffice -> KDE Office Suite
... perhaps famous sketchers or draftsmen for Killustrator, famous authors for kword, famouse painters for kpaint, and so on...
Killistrator -> VectorDraw
kword -> Scribe
kpaint -> Artiste
and so on. Rather than fighting this sort of battle on their turf (yes, it is rediculous that generic words like, oh, say, "word," "illustrator," "paint," and so on are trademarked, but these large corporations have already purchased all three branches of our government rather cheaply and hold the home-court advantage in an excess of funds and lawyers to win even the most unfair and indefensible of legal fights.
Far better to just make up unique names and spend the money that would have been spent on legal duels filing trademarks for those names instead. I'm sure numerous people would donate to such a cause.
Anyone have any better ideas for names
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
Was it worth it, guys?
--
Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
Of course, user number 1 is using Windows, and user number 2 is using Linux, so maybe that explains the disparity...
--
"Do you expect me to talk?" "No, Mr. Bond. I expect you to die!"
Nitpick: Aside from Dimensions, I don't think Adobe publishes any 3-D software...
To make one thing clear. I am in the OSS-movement since 1992 and still do my best to enforce open source wherever I can. I think we should try to convince Adobe to leave killustrator to the kde-team or try to find a different name.
Btw. I offer 50 Euro to Kai if he is in need of the money.
Gery
------------------------------
The answer is yes, me.
You mentioned the questionable legality/wisdom of trademarking a word as common as "Illustrator." Let me point this little tidbit out: Illustrator is old. It has been around for a long time, since the days when all software was named in such a way. Remember Word? How about Write? Or Paint? When software was much less common, it didn't take much of a name to differentiate your product. Times have changed, but the old names cannot simply for marketing reasons. Everybody knows what Illustrator is, while Adobe would have to start all over again with marketing if they were to shange their name.
± 29 dB
I don't think the name of a piece of software necessarily has to describe it's function. As a piece of software becomes more popular, if it has an original name, that name will become synonymous with the software's function. Take the Gimp as an example; There are now literally millions of people who know what the Gimp's purpose is. What about Napster? If napster didn't suck nowadays and kept taking off, that word would probably be added to the dictionary in a few years. Well maybe not, but you get my point. Ximian's Evolution is still under development but already has thousands of users who are already forming the association between the name "Evolution" and it's function--The mail/groupware suite. Aim high, developers--if you're starting a new project or considering a renaming, there's nothing wrong with the name being descriptive, but at least consider some really original names and then work to make your piece of software the best in it's class. You'll earn the distinction of having the name of your project mean what it's function is and might even have other projects prepending letters or company names to your name in the future...:) Try to then be the Gimp of X, where X is any category of software...
Celebrate the finer things in life
all this time I thought the ENTIRE POINT of trademarks was to keep a copy-cat company from selling a product that *falsly claimed* to be from the original product's manufacturer
well, sorry, but all this time you were wrong. the purpose of trademarks is to prevent consumer confusion.
The standard used is "would the average consumer" be reasonably confused by the mark. Not your standard of "anyone, anywhere". Most legal standards are "reasonable person" standards...
---------------------------------------------
Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
AIM is an ackronymn, and everyone knows that you cannot trademark them...
you'd better notify all the intellectual property attorneys of this startling development...
---------------------------------------------
Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
Actualy, when GAIM came out, America Online had not yet copyrigted the name "AIM"
you're right, they had only trademarked it.
Not with government paperwork, but that little "tm" is all you need to notify the public.
---------------------------------------------
Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
That's what trademarks are for, to protect Mom and Dad from being ripped off.
Exactly (and I have a "Padagonia" vest in Nepal that i got for $5 which is great, but I knew it was a knock-off, of course).
You don't seriously think that anybody will konfuse Killustrator with Adobe Illustrator, do you? Really?
really? Yes. What's to indicate that they are different? they are both vector graphics programs that run on PCs, and let you do pretty much the same things. How is someone without experience or computer savvy supposed to guess at the difference?
---------------------------------------------
Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
Instead of complaining to Slashdot every time your blatant name ripoff is called out (GAIM, KIllustrator), why not just name your program something that isn't clearly derivative of a commercial program with the same purpose?
This is, after all, the ENTIRE POINT of trademarks -- so that the customer knows what they are getting. For someone who isn't already familiar with the applications, KIllustrator and Illustrator could very well be the same thing.
We criticize MS every time they over-use the word "innovation", why not practice some innovation of your own and actually spend ten seconds thinking of a new name.
Yes, you might be able to claim "illustrator" is a generic term, but seeing as how the program has been around for 15 years and is the market leader, I think a court would give Adobe the benefit of the doubt in deference to the consumer identification of the name with their product. They're hardly trying to stop the use of the word everywhere -- only where it is blatantly obvious that its an intended ripoff of their product identification in vector graphics application software market.
---------------------------------------------
Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
As Adobe isn't participating in the Linux market, KIllustrator isn't a competing product.
Illustrator is a generic term, that existed long before Adobe's product.
Presuming that they felt that they needed to defend their trademark, they could have required a written acknowledgement in each copy, or some such, saying, e.g., "The term Illustrator for this program us used by permission of...".
I believe that they just felt like they had enough muscle to get away with it. I believe that they were right about that.
In addition, Adobe is one of the companies publically reported as a supporter of UCITA, so I don't feel like cutting them any slack.
It will be quite awhile before I recommend any Adobe product to anybody for anything.
Caution: Now approaching the (technological) singularity.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
It is nonsense to suggest that the name is not equally applicable to other products simply because Adobe used it first.
Well, maybe it's not right, but that's all the court would care about, if it ever went that far, because Adobe trademarked "Illustrator"
Killustrator is a vector-based drawing program.
Illustrator is a vector-based drawing program.
Illustrator predates Killustrator by a number of years.
The name "Illustrator" is trademarked.
The way I see it, the court could rule in one of two ways:
1) They find for Adode
2) They rule Adobe's trademark invalid
That's the way trademarks work. Both products are aimed at people wishing to use a computer to produce vector-based illustrations. That they run under different operating systems is irrelevant.
As for "one product is always going to come before the other. That does not mean that one is named after the other", are you seriously trying to tell us that the Killustrator developers chose the name at random, and had never heard of Illustrator? I'm sure the same is true of KOffice and KWord, too...
Now, please feel free to argue that Illustrator is too generic a term to be trademarked; then you'd be on safer ground. However, arguing that Adobe using it first doesn't grant them any exclusivity over its use isn't going to get you very far.
Cheers,
Tim
It's official. Most of you are morons.
if they're there for the money, and you can help them stay there and get more money... they'll cater to you so long as you can actually do something for them. It's the same deal for corporations and lobbyists, if they didn't have $$$ then why would the govt listen to them, what can they for for the govt but give them $$$?
but rally, that's not democracy, that's corruption, and corruption is everywhere. Even in anarchy, you will have groups of individuals conspiring against other indivuals for their own benefit. No big difference. Remember there is no magic pill that will make things better. If anarchy (as a form of "non"government) was so great, why is it so under represented in the world?
-earl
by having a project which is not-for-profit, and realeases source code under a free license, i am within my rights to infringe on anyone's patent or trademark or any other form of IP.
It's just rubbish. Whether or not you "believe" in Intellectual property has no bearing on whether it exists, and if it is legally binding.
Fighting the system through simple noncompliance is not the answer, talk to your govt reps, and demand action. If nobody complains, then nothing changes. The whole point of democracy is that you stand up and be heard, not just bitch and moan cuz you're not in charge.
And do you really believe that gov't cares about anything but money anyway? Well, guess who has more money? The people do, and by the way, corporations can't vote, so if you stop being a sheep and watchin all the political ads, and do something. Then the system might change. If you've never actively participated in the system ( no, just voting is not enough) then you're not doing enough to make sure you're interests are represented. Support a canidate that REALLY represents you, then maybe we wouldn't have all these cookie-cutter, do anything for a buck congressional whores deciding how we're gonna plan our collective futures.
by the way, no i'm not bitter.
-earl
I disagree with all of the others, but if someone were to start the K-Free Software Foundation as long as it was a foundation dealing with free software I see nothing wrong with it.
In regards to the generic-ness of a name, who dictates what that is?
I think I'll start a credit firm and call it "American Dollar".
Who knows. If I IPO, I could be symbol USD on the NASDAQ.
Grain of salt people. I think Illustrator is justified in their ownership of the name within the relevant market, of which Killustrator falls into. Confusion just makes things worse, which is why I will name only one of my sons after me.
Lycestra
Are you confused? If you are maybe they have a case, but then you don't. OTOH, if you are not, then they don't have a case. The word "illustrator" existed before Adobe used it just like the word "Word" existed before Microsoft used it. Of course they can add stuff on and use it as their own. But so can anyone else do the same thing. The question is whether that was done to extract on the "good" name, or if it was done to simply convey a meaning to a ubiquitous term. I'm sure the KDE people can choose a different name. But the demand for money now means it won't be that simple.
And the GPL does not undermine IT development companies. They don't have to use the software if they don't want to. Why is your business doing it if it is undermining you? I was considering using BSD licensing for my free software. But because of the unjustified attacks made on GPL, I'm considering going the other way and doing GPL. Hope you're happy.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
Instead of trying to address the matter in good faith they are trying to pressure people for money. Were it not for that, I'd say to KDE to change the name. But instead, I'd suggest holding their stand until Adobe agrees to come to terms on this. They should have first sent a normal cease and desist letter. But this indicates a major attitude problem at Adobe, and they are certainly going to lose all potential business from me (what little there may have been).
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
And it is also about Adobe skipping the usual process of sending a "cease and desist" letter. I do believe that, aside from the "theft of commonality" issue, it is likely that the author would have changed the name. So this is also about a bad company with a bad attitude and a bunch of bad lawyers who really are the ones who should become fish food.
I wish I could boycott Adobe over this. The trouble is, they don't make anything worth buying in the first place.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
Murderustrator
Genocide-ustrator
Manslaughterustrator
Executionustrator
Maybe the Killustrator should abandon their death theme. They can still stay within the violence theme without killing:
Beatingustrator
Rape-ustrator
Maimustrator
Hazingustrator
The possibilities just go on!
--
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
Today on the trademark front, Kleenex Corp. accounced that it is issuing an injunction against Adobe, Inc. for use of a confusingly similar name for their product.
The Kleenex spokesman, a Mr. S. Notball, had this to say, "These Adobe people have gone too far. Their giving this product a name that sounds so similar to our product can't help but harm our customers. Picture this, John Q. Consumer has a bad cold, he's not feeling himself and is a bit confused. He reaches for his KLinux, thinking that he's grabbing his Kleenex. And what happens? He ends up with mucus all over his mouse, keboard and monitor! We just can't allow this sort of thing to go on."
--
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
"My name is Leenus Torvalds, and I pronounce 'Klinux' as Kleenux."
Think about how Linus would pronounce this and you'll realize that they'd soon hear from Kimberly Clark. You know, the folks who make that boxed facial tissue?
(see http://205.203.65.110/home.htm if you still don't get it...)
Adobe is a US based company. If they are actually trying to get money out of you I don't see why it would be in Euro. Not to mention 2500 euro seems like a very small sum to begin with. I would check with Adobe Corporate Legal and see if this letter is a fake or not before worrying about it. Most large companies tend to get their panties in a bunch to the sum of many hundred of thousands of dollars (or more) over trademark infringement.
Just like removing the "Perfect" from a word processor, or adding "Star" to the front of "Office"? How about changing "Photo" to "Paint"? Look at "TurboCAD", "AutoCAD", "QCAD", and dozens of others. If adding your company name isn't enough, explain "Microsoft Office", "Corel Office", "Open Office", "StarOffice" and...
Oh, wait... you're right. I guess "KOffice" is infringing too?
There is a long history of companies using slight variations on competitors names - I think it has less to do with intentional confusion and more to do with limited namespace for a topic and the need to have a single word name that makes the function of the program evident.
--
Evan
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
So by your logic there would be no connection between a program called "musician" and editing music???
Illustrations (from woodcuts onwards) have traditionally been vector graphics...
I'll also add (only of historical relevance, and not of legal relevance) that Office packages have been for sale since at least the 1950s, and probably back to the 1800s. My Dad dug up in my Grandfather's back shed something like "Smithson's Office", a package containing a nice desk set.
And an Illustrator is someone who illustrates. A program named "Illustrator" would presumably illustrate things. I don't know how more generic you can get. Going back to AC's comment, it's not CakeWalk... it's more like Adobe Musician versus KMusician.
--
Evan
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
Before all you whiners start talking about how unfair this is... is there room for consumer confusion? Yes.
You cannot bring out computer software for illustration and call it 'Illustrator' or anything confusingly similar, because Adobe has it trademarked.
Yes, there have been many good examples of trademark abuse in the past, but this is not one of them. Adobe has a very valid point.
You cannot bring out 'Gnu Windows' as an OS, you cannot bring out 'kleanex' tissues, and you cannot bring out a computer called the 'Makintosh'
Sheesh.
not to mention the Blue Screen of Death could actually kill you...
Actually McIntosh is a common eating apple, Macintosh is a type of computer.
"Grab them by the pussy" -- President of the United States of America
What if Adobe was planning on porting all their products to linux (including Illustrator). They might feel that if they did port them that it would be hard for lUsers to tell the difference between them.
Your online dictionary sucks, why would anyone use it when they have dictionary.com?
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Actualy, when GAIM came out, America Online had not yet copyrigted the name "AIM"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
both "Adobe Illustrator" and just "Illustrator" are trademarked by Adobe.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
But your still wrong, aol had not trademarked the name "AIM" either.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
I wonder if (for whatever reason) Adobe has something against Unix in general. Perhaps they just don't have the knowhow. This would partially explain their reluctance to have something for the Mac.
I wouldn't fret over the Mac. It took some time for fat binaries to become available. This will be the same thing. (Of course, WRT Adobe products and the new Mac OS, there is a rather large chicken-egg problem)
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
Killistrator is not competition of Illustrator. Why? Because Adobe does not compete in the Unix/non-MS/non-Apple marketplace. While the KIll. program might have been 'inspired' by Adobe's work, it is not a competitor. Not until AIllustrator is available on *BSD, Linux, Herd, or whatever.
But yeah, big whoop. Change the name, life goes on. Grant the copyright of the code/name to FSF and let them pay the 20 quatloos.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
Would MS Mxyzptlk get them back to our dimension, or land them on the bizarro 5th dimension? (Boy, now that would be an interesting place)
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
Actually, McIntosh is a fruit. Macintosh is a computer.
Most interestingly, Apple is a recording studio. Apple (the computer company) introduced the 'sosumi' beep after essentially reneging on their agreement to not put sound editing/recording on the Mac.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
Unfortunately, I added some stuff to my original post that would have indicated that I was playing devil's advocate. Guess they got knackered. Sorry.
But anyhoo, this is an important question: IS there an OS market? Does someone actually choose between FreeBSD and Win2k? Hurd and Linux? QNX and WinME?
If you think not (and on the desktop, I think I'm right) then Killustrator is not a competitor. OTOH, if there is a market (and it seems that there is not. M$ has mind and marketshare, except among a few of us freaks) then yes, the two products do compete.
As an example... Let's say that GM creates a car called the SuperHawk (a replacement for the SuperChicken, perhaps). Can Honda sue? It depends. Both are transportation products, but one is a car, one is a bike.
Similarly, Killustrator is a Linux (forgive me if it's also available for BSD, et al.) product, and Illustrator is a Win/Mac product.
Those are the arguments that could be made. I agree with some, disagree with others. But in the end, regardless of the right and wrong of it, the expeditious thing to do, if the software is an end, and not a means to social change, is change the name.
Someone said KINI (KINI Is Not Illustrator). I like it. And you'd have to be a complete rube (or perhaps 'your honor') in order to confuse the two.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
(You know, the GNU Photoshop equivalent...)
Hmm, no trademark issues there... You know, there's probably a lesson there.
Yes, I sometimes think sarcasm is wasted, but I keep trying.
This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is... Oops. Frank, I've got your sig again! Where's mine?
So, how are you (Linux goons) going to manage that? Threaten to stop using Photoshop for Linux?
'Thats they exact same thing a banana wrench monkey.'
There are agencies that check the legal status of names in all kinds of countries (and the meaning of that name in various languages).
That way, you can make sure that you're not working against anyone's trademarks and you make sure that people will not associate anything negative with your product.
Of course, the expenses to use that service are probably way higher than what your average free software author is able (or willing) to spend.
Actually, it's in 4686 German Mark (DM), which is (at least approximately) 2500 Euro.
The lawyers also refused to make a deal - the author offered to change the name if they would not demand the money. They added that lawyers wouldn't work for free.
See the article in the Heise.de newsticker. According to that article it is still unclear whether the lawyers work directly for Adobe. Adobe itself also didn't make a statement.
Yep. Dodger or Dodgem.
Dodge'em cars.
at the local entertainment park.
Anyone have any better ideas for names ... perhaps famous sketchers or draftsmen for Killustrator, famous authors for kword, famouse painters for kpaint, and so on...
This is a great idea -- not only because it bypasses the whole trademark issue, but because it's coherent, clever, and marketable. Moreover, it would differentiate Linux apps from their Windows counterparts (if only the developers could do the same with the interfaces, many of which are blatant MS knockoffs). In short, it would give the Linux platform a sorely needed shot of brand identity. I suggest:
Killustrator -> DaVinci (possibly the most famous draftsman of all time)
Kword -> Virgil
Kpaint -> Monet (a good choice to differentiate paint from illustrator -- the guy would never use a vector program to save his life)
Cheers,
IT
Power corrupts. PowerPoint corrupts absolutely.
wait for it...
make Linux, not Microsoft. sin(beast) = -0.809016994374947424102293417182819
-jhp
/. -- the Free Republic of technology.
If we were talking about Adobe calling their product "Megadraw", and KDE "KMegadraw", or "Lines123" and "KLines123", then you might have a point. But Adobe have chosen a descriptive name for their product, one that is completely generic and was already used for that purpose when Adobe used it. What would you describe a vector drawing program as if you wanted to sum it up in one word? It is nonsense to suggest that the name is not equally applicable to other products simply because Adobe used it first. That's abuse of language.
How is Megadraw any less descriptive than Illustrator. Both of the names say that this program is used for graphic work and that's it. Adobe put a lot of effort associating Illustrator with VECTOR drawing. KDE's KIllustrator is simply stealing Adobe's work.
There are plenty of words that could be use such as:
Plus a word could be made up like Vectorizer. So the fact that KIllustrator was choose as the name means only one thing, that the author(s) wanted to ride Adobe's coattails.
I don't want to speak for the guy you are arguing with but really what makes you think that Adobe owns the word illustrator and that nobody else can use the illustrator in their product names from this day on?
Anyone can use the name as long as the product isn't a drawing program.
First of all is the word "Illustrator" a registered trademark of Adobe or the is phrase "Adobe Illustrator" the trademark. If the latter then what makes you think any body would confuse the word "killustrator" with the phrase "adobe illustrator"?
Well, I looked it up, Adobe has a trademark on both "Illustrator" ('97) and "Adobe Illustrator" ('87). There are plenty of other people that use Illustrator too, but its not a similar product to Adobe's.
They might be right, but that doesn't mean they they couldn't have warned the developer of Killustator??
And why do they worry so much? They only have windows ans MacOS products. All these version don't run Killustrator?
>"Nobody called the program Kadobe! I think it is time for some pressure on Adobe ... "
Hmm, seems odd to me to assume that you couldn't
call something Kadobe, as Webster's has this to
say, with nothing about a software company...
adobe (-db)
n.
A sun-dried, unburned brick of clay and straw.
The clay or soil from which this brick is made.
A structure built with this type of brick.
Error Code: beef
As owner of the German top level domain I have been wanting to get those KDE folks for quite some time.
See, once you start going down this road, you realize that someone, somewhere has produced software with virtually every name possible and sooner or later they're going to decide to want some licensing fee for using their noun, verb, or adjective.
I want to release a product called 'the' or '1.0' and trademark those terms
It's only a matter of time until KDE is ported to OSX. Now that Trolltech has made the Windows Qt library available for free, there has been talk of porting KOffice to Windows. Therefore, KIllustrator is very likely to be in direct competition with the Adobe product on both platforms.
Would anyone defend Corel if they came out with a product called "Corel Illustrator"? I doubt it. KIllustrator is no different to Corel Illustrator or Microsoft Illustrator.
"GIMP" sounds nothing like "Photoshop", but everyone knows they're similar products. Isn't it enough to copy functionality - do people really need to copy the name as well? Doesn't anyone in the Open Source world have any originality? Instead of creating clones of existing software, it would be nice to see similar functionality with different, *better* interfaces.
"Good people drink good beer"
letter too
My bad - I thought they scored Illustrator at the same time that they did PageMaker.
----
----
Am I the only one who thinks Microsoft is a misnomer? Perhaps Macrosoft would be a better fit?
Mea culpa. Maybe GNIllustrator would be a good rename :)
----
----
Am I the only one who thinks Microsoft is a misnomer? Perhaps Macrosoft would be a better fit?
----
----
Am I the only one who thinks Microsoft is a misnomer? Perhaps Macrosoft would be a better fit?
Adobe Threatens KIllustrator Over Name
I hate it when people use contracted names like "KIllustrator". They should use the long form, "Kill Illustrator"! There should be no name confusion with the long form either.
2500 EUR is only 2110 USD. Doesn't seem like a serious number. Maybe some digits were dropped?
Everyone will start to cheer when you put on your sailin' shoes.
Although the MTV droids may come after them then...
Everyone will start to cheer when you put on your sailin' shoes.
I don't want to speak for the guy you are arguing with but really what makes you think that Adobe owns the word illustrator and that nobody else can use the illustrator in their product names from this day on?
First of all is the word "Illustrator" a registered trademark of Adobe or the is phrase "Adobe Illustrator" the trademark. If the latter then what makes you think any body would confuse the word "killustrator" with the phrase "adobe illustrator"?
If this went to court Adobe would lose. It won't go to court because Adobe is rich and the developers are not. The rich get what they want in this country and there is nothing any of can do about it.
War is necrophilia.
" They don't run under operating systems at all - it's an absurd comment to make. "
This is slashdot absurdity rules here. All the moderators are on crack, all the MS trolls get modded to +5, any right wing comment no matter how devoid of actual content will also get modded up the wazoo.
You were not actually expecting inteligent conversation on slashdot were you? All the adults have gone and left and the insane are running the asylum.
War is necrophilia.
The weakest just like what we have today in america.
War is necrophilia.
"Anyone can use the name as long as the product isn't a drawing program."
Not exactly true. As long as a reasonable person would not confuse the two products. In this case no reasonable person would confuse adobe illustrator with killustrator because.
1) different word
2) they don't run on the same OS
3) Adobe illustrator comes boxed with logos and shrinkwrap, killustrator has no box, does not come with a shrink. No cunsumer is likely to walk into a store and buy killustrator thinking it might be illustrator.
4) Illustrator costs lots of money killustrator is free.
Only unreasonable people would confuse these two products and even in the event of confusion if one person downloaded killustrator thinking it was illustrator it would not run on thei OS and therefore there is no harm to adobe.
War is necrophilia.
adobe (-db)
n.
A sun-dried, unburned brick of clay and straw.
The clay or soil from which this brick is made.
A structure built with this type of brick.
Ah... this explains that great SNL fake commercial about the Mexican car.
"Hey look, we're Adobe. The little car that's made out of clay..."
--
-- Will quantum computers run imaginary-time operating systems?
I think comedy is easy to use. if only he made his structured drawing program nudge illustrator in the ribs, and mock their silly menus and icons - perhaps include a license that spits on their EULA, why not? Then , would it be protected? HAs anyone ever tried parody software?? Thats a new level of complexity I think. I don't know if the code would be arranged to make fun of Adobe also, which to truly be biting, you'd have to know the original structure for illustrator - so thats more like an 'in' joke for Adobe. We should stick to mocking the GUI and names of functions.
Juln
Chances are it's just a bully-boy technique that a lot of companies use. Talk to the admins at any large free web provider. Every week individuals and companies threaten lawsuits if something is not removed from the directories. Not that these emails are followed up, often the first one is enough to scare the provider in the first place. I've seen this happen with my friend's company, and when they refused the litigators would back down. Still, having most of the companies you threatened take down websites from a 2-minute-to-write email is a pretty effective form of corporate warfare.
Actually, you can trademark common words or phrases,and obvious ones, for use in a certain context. IBM trademarked "Crash Protection" as it related to operating systems, as did Microsoft with "Windows". Oh, and "Macintosh" is a common eating apple, but both it and apple have been trademarked.
Best Slashdot Co
Here's an argument to tell those bozos at Adobe.
The product name is 'Kill'-'ustrator', not 'K'-'illustrator'.
By the Adobe argument, the product 'Microsoft Excel' could be confused with the programming language 'C' because the letter 'C' appears in the name.
These guys are morons.
Should 'Word Perfect' be sued by Microsoft because their product name contains the word 'Word'?
----------------------------
Which is why you are not a patent attorney, since you cannot even understand the basics.
Seems that not understanding the basics is a rampant problem, since the issue is trademarks here, not patents....
Next thing you know PARADIGM is going to sue the KDE folks for infringing on their free Illustrator program.
Death and danger are my various breads and various butters.
Yeah, I'm sure more people think about Pulp Fiction rather than about the acronym. And the Pulp Fiction inspired meaning is cooler too...
ser# 74731075: "ILLUSTRATOR", for Adobe Systems Incorporated.
ser# 73210166: "ILLUSTRATOR", for Illustrator Pen Products, Inc.
ser# 73657866: "ADOBE ILLUSTRATOR", for Adobe Systems Incorporated.
--
IIRC, "Adobe Illustrator" is trademarked, not "Illustrator", which is an english word found in the dictionary.
This is really no different than a "Hershey's Kiss", in that many chocolate makers produce "Kisses" and a "Kiss" which are essentially the same mold as a "Hershey's Kiss", but they are not infringing, since Hershey's cannot trademark the word Kiss.
On the other hand you have "Windows", which has been trademarked succesfully, and it would be difficult for one to make an OS, or nearly any piece of software, with that name.
I doubt that Adobe would win a court battle, but it is expensive and everyone has to choose their battles wisely. Sometimes it's better to stand up and stand firm, other times it's better to bend a little until the wind blows over. I personally would rather have a rename and then the author spend time further developing the software than have all development stop (essentially) while various people grapple in court.
-Adam
This sig 80% recycled bits, 20% post user.
Lawyers don't make demands for money upfront.
They threaten first and expect you to back down.
Also 2500 euro sounds awefully cheap for use
of adobe's trademark. Ignore him.
--
www.alphalinux.org
www.alphalinux.org
Sure it does... you have to dodge the car when its crappy tires give out and it goes careening off the road into your front yard while you are mowing the lawn
I realize that Ford had the tire problem. I thought a bit of play on the theme would be ok for a (albeit bad) joke. I quite happily drive a dodge ram pickup and it serves me well. Lighten up and pull that banana out of your tailpipe. And I ain't talkin bout your charger either.
Adobe has every right, reason, and frankly, moral justification to persue this suit. Adobe Illustrator is an established, well known, widely recognized brand name, due in no small part to the quality of the product and the boatloads of marketing money spend by Adobe. Naming a product that is a direct competetor KIllustrator, a one letter diffrence, is not just an innocent naming choice, but a blatenty obvious effort to ride on the coatails of Adobe's efforts. Adobe did it first. Adobe did a good job of it. Adobe chose to identify all their hardwork with the label Illustrator. Regardless of the legality/wisdom of trying to trademark a standard word, naming their productKIllustrator is a cheep ploy and is an excellent example of the kind of thing trademark laws were set up to stop in the firstplace. Seriously people, if Microsoft released an MS-Apache webserver the majority of the posters on this board would be demanding blood. Just because someone is an underdog doesn't always make them the good guys.
Adobe is perfectly right. It is an infringment. The guy should come up with a new name and save his cash.
"If you love someone, set them free. If they come home, set them on fire." - George Carlin
yes the Adobe that has not ported a single application apart from its PDF Reader to Linux
Heh, don't feel bad; apparently Linux isn't the only Unix platform Adobe refuses to port anything other than a PDF reader to....
--
I use Macs for work, Linux for education, and Windows for cardplaying.
Okay, there are lawsuits left and right over trademark names. Why can't you create your own name? I know you really want your software to be just like the really expensive professional product, but why the hell do you need to add k-this and gnu-that to everything? I understand that most open source programs do not have much resources: money, staff, time, etc. Why do you want to risk going to court over using someone else's name?
Next on the table: KDreamWeaver, KNotes, GNUAcrobat, Open-SoundForge, GNUFlash, Open Access 2000, GNU CheckPoint Firewall
Do you see something wrong with this picture? If I ran one of these companies I'd feel the same way!
Go ahead mod me down!!
--
microsoft, it's what's for dinner
bq--3b7y4vyll6xi5x2rnrj7q.com
it's a sig, wtf?
In my opinion, trademark laws give too much power to trademark holders. I can understand that corporate identity is paramount to fair business practices in a free society. But then again, so is individual identity. Yet there are millions of people around the world who have exactly the same name. Does that rob them of their identity? I don't think so. Should corporations have greater rights than human beings when it comes to the law? I don't think so. In the case of Adobe Illustrator, there is no way that there can be widespread confusion between Killustrator and Adobe Illustrator for the same reason that there is no confusion between John A. Taylor of Iowa and John B. Taylor of New Zealand. There is much more to identity than name alone.
:-)
We need to offer the KDE folks all the support we can muster. We also need to write to our representatives in Washington and elsewhere around the world and let them know that we are not pleased with the current trademark laws.
And don't even get me started on patent laws.
Use ghostscript to print or export text from pdf files that are set to not allow it.
Then tell everyone you know who has had this problem, or other people who must deal with pdf files frequently, that they can get around these "protections" by using ghostscript even under MS Windows.
War crimes, torture, lies, illegal spying... Would someone give Bush a blowjob, already, so he can be impeached?
On the otherhand, don't you think that the name KIllustrator was chosen specifically as a reference to the Adobe product? Can anyone really see the name "KIllustrator" and not associate with Illustrator. It is confusing in some respects even if Adobe is not producing a Linux Illustrator. Perhaps Adobe is considering marketing a Linux port of Illustrator in which case there is a real possibility of confusing these programs.
The bottom line is this: The developers of KIllustrator selected the name specifically because it was similar to Illustrator. They did this because the name instantly tells you what the project intends to do: write an Illustrator clone for KDE. I don't think it is right that anyone should be able to manufacture and sell cars under the Ford name. And what if Dell sold "Macintosh" computers? How is this case any different? KIllustrator should just pick some new name.
It seems like Adobe has a reasonable, yet not air tight claim that KIllustrator is confusingly similar to Illustrator, given that both are software tools in the vector drawing arena.
;-] but I don't think Adobe will be very keen, you see they've already got one.
OK, so what happens now? Either the KDE component will need to hire some lawyers and fight, or they need to change their name, or they could simply pay the fee.
Perhaps a little barter arrangement can be made in return for a trademark licence. I suppose KDE could offer Adobe free use, source code, and even distribution of the program
Since the name is somewhat derivitive, I'd recommend changing it as path with the moral high ground. Perhaps they should have a contest to propose the new name. Also, I think all prominent open source projects should trademark their names as a precaution.
Here's a few alternate names I thought of (post your ideas):
sKetch
Kanvas
Killus
KVector
GeometricK
I am sure that Adobe has a trademark on the "Illustrator" name. This pretty much means that it has a naming monopoly on the word Illustrator as it pertains to computer drawing programs. Appending a "K" doesn't adequately differentiate the product. Using an original name is a much better idea. There is no real way to defend what KIllustrator is doing in a court.
This smells a little fishy to me. I'd think that if Adobe had a problem with this group, they wouldn't be asking for a paulty sum like 2500 euros, they'd be saying "Cease and Desist".
I'd be for double-checking the source of the demand: I smell a con artist here.
www.eFax.com are spammers
Do they have to be MEAN and THREATENING when they defend it?
I would feel a lot better about Adobe if they had started with, "We believe this name violates our trademark, we would appreciate your changing it," rather than, "you owe us 2500 Euros (~3k US), because you stole our name, possibly."
That's bullying, no getting around it.
Because they went the jerk route, they stifle development on a good open source product, needlessly make later versions of it unavailable for awhile, potentially intimidate open source developers in general, etc. Was this their intention-- who knows?
Maybe Adobe just hands over all responsibility to their lawyers, who would rather make threats than handle things in a civil manner. But it's still an unnecessary slap in the face.
Who is RTFM and when will he help me with Unix?
How abotu we remind them that Linux is a trademark too. We should remind them the ball bounces both ways. Just because they ported somethign to Linux, it doesn't mean they have to, or can, use the name. /.ed.
Oh course this is assuming they actually have this product, I have been able to get to the sight. I think it's
At the next eco-hypocrisy-meeting, count the private jets used to get to the meeting. Should be interesting to see that
Killustrator is not a competing product to Adobe Illustrator (I assume that's what you meant.) It can't be - the two products do not even run under the same operating system.
I agree totally. In fact, Linux and Windows are not competitors either, they run on different operating systems.
---
python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
2500 Euro? For some guy's spare time project?Cripes.
/. be up in arms with pitch forks and torches?)
Hold it right there. If everyone here is always praising free software, then you can't turn around and claim that Adobe shouldn't treat this particular project with the same amount of seriousness as it would any other (commercial) competitor. You don't know if KIllustrator is tomorrow's wonder-project, that everyone knows about (e.g. Linux kernel). If you can sing the praises of free software 24-hours a day, then Adobe has every right to treat this as a threat, and better to take care of it now then later.
If this is how companies are going to try to kill free software, we need to establish a pool of good software names that no one has trademark claims to and nail them down.
You think?
People should stop ripping off names (and consequently, attempts at name-recognition) and do exactly what you suggest.
(And imagine if Adobe tried to rippoff the name of a free-software project. Wouldn't all of
---
python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
Of course, these silly trademark rules will probably allow Adobe to pressure the Koffice people to change the name.
Someone above suggested that Kword might soon be pressured by MSFT to change, and maybe even the Koffice name will have to be changed. This leads to an interesting point. Many word processors existed prior to MSWord with the name 'word' in them. Could MSFT claim KWord is in violation or not? And similarly, has anyone encountered other software with the name 'illustrator' in it? .V / _` (_-<_-<
.\_/\_/\__,_/__/__/
__ __ ____ _ ______
\ V
make world, not war
This is such a stupid crock of a post.
Adobe has every legal right to make KIllustrator change their name.
KIllustrator could have easily been named any million of other names that would not infringe on Adobe's name rights, but they didn't. I think they should have seen it coming.
Why don't we all build a product called KWindows or KPhotoshop...
gimme a break. I can't believe people are actually getting mad at Adobe for defending their legal rights.
Looks like a typical case of the poor witto program-for-free geek types against the big EVIL corporation. Sounds like RobinHood. or communism.
spare me
The price we pay for immortality... is death. Narnia The Great Fall
All Adobe wanted to do was shut down the development of potentially competing software. They succeeded. They knew that they likely don't have a leg to stand on legally, for while Adobe Illustrator(r) is a registered trademark, the word Illustrator itself does not exist as one of their trademarked words (see http://www.adobe.com/misc/trademarks.html).
Just another example of intimidation winning out over what is right. Make your voice and wallet heard by support Kai and letting Adobe know you're unsatisified.
If I could only live my life with my threshold at 4...
What are you looking for in 3D - is pov ray good enough for you?
Wheeeee
Maybe if we setup a logo with a phonetic pronunciation there in a comical form for "Kill-Us-Strator" that would get around that. However, Mr. / Ms. Strator might not like us asking them to kill us....
Wheeeee
Didn't apple change "Carl Segan Astronomer" to "Butt Head Astronomer" when Mr. Segan didn't want his name used on their product?
(I think it didn't get out the door with that title, but it was atleast used for in house reference)
Oh, I'm probably wrong and will get severly flamed and then mod-ed down, but then we know I'll remember!
Wheeeee
Your post would have been really helpful if it had as many useful links on the subject as it had profanities.
I'll consider posting at 0, like you, so you may be spared my thoughts.
-Peter
So can I trademark "wordprocessor" and then sue MS, Corel, etc, to not describe Word, WordPerfect, etc, as "word processor?"
That's asinine.
While I may be misinformed about what is trademarkable, I think I can fall back on the fact that it is illustration software. So can they change the name to KWoozleWozzle and then refer to KWoozleWozzle as the KDE Illustrator?
The bitch here is that it IS an illustrator (little i.)
BTW, I think that adobe is a building material, not a dwelling. Maybe you are thinking abode? (I'm mildly dyslexic, (really) maybe you are too? Those two words alone could be a test in themselves.)
-Peter
I didn't say name it "The KDE Illustrator." I said name it KWoozleWazzle, and describe it as The KDE illustrator. (Like Kword is the KDE word processor) The point being, can someone stop me describing my "product" based on what it does because they have trademarked a (common) word (!)?
For example, can MS stop Corel using the word "word" in descriptions of WordPerfect (of course, from the beginning, I have been using the Word/WP analogy to illuminate how stupid this whole thing is.)
Or another, more concrete, example: If I have a farm equipment company, and I trademark my "Thresher" brand of threshers (whatever they are . .
If so the whole god damned system needs an enema.
-Peter
I mean, Judges do stupid stuff quite often, but do you really think that one is going to find "Adobe Illustrator" (which must be the trademark, since you can't trademark a common word) and "Killustrator" confusingly similar?
-Peter
This is the same thing as if I were to create a portable video game system and call it the "GamePlayer":
Oh no, it contains the word "Game", and Nintendo makes something called "GameBoy" so it must be "confusingly similar" and an infringement of some kind! After all, most consumers are so slug-like they can't possibly differentiate between two products that don't run the same games, look similar, or come from different manufacturers!
It's not as if "game" is some common word in the dictionary or some common slang that everyone uses! I guess I should somehow name my portable game system something completely unrelated, such as "ButtWiper", since that can't possibly be confused with "GameBoy".
WTF? Do these people representing Adobe have any ethics at all? How can they possibly sleep at night?
- "It's just a matter of opinion!" - PRIMUS
Didn't Adobe port Framemaker to Linux? I distinctly remember running a Linux beta of Framemaker, but it expired and the project was cancelled due to lack of interest. It was a kind of word processor/desktop publishing program. It wasn't bad, but I like AbiWord better.
----
Yes, precisely. I signed up for the beta test of Framemaker, and used it for a while. The software expired, though, and the project was cancelled due to lack of interest. It wasn't a bad piece of software, but I like AbiWord more. Adobe HAS made an effort to contribute to Linux, but it was made to a deaf ear, apparently.
----
Just because Adobe was smart and picked a simple name doesn't mean it should be public domain on the name. If you wanted Illustrator you should have gotten it before they did. I support Open Source but I really can't stand the socialist positions the extremists take. Welcome to capitalism folks, want to live in socialism move to France.
no, they're advertised as an "illustration tool", not an "illustrator tool". there is a difference.
I, and many other people, would associate a computer aided drawing application with the word "illustrator" in it to Adobe.
they were obviously playing off the name. maybe they should have named it "illustration" or something totally unrelated... but this is so obvious, makes you wonder why if they were bright enough to create this app that they weren't creative enough to choose a name that wouldn't get them attacked by adobe's lawyers.
they know they should be on the linux platform? what the hell for?
how many graphic designers use linux boxes?
hell, most graphic designers I know barely know how to use their macintoshes, are mostly unable to use Windoze computers efficiently, and took at unix or linux as ancient greek.
I happen to agree with Adobe's position on Linux right now... until they see a true demand that equals people purchasing the software instead of just demanding a port for port's sake, there's no reason to put the R&D money behind it, especially in an uncertain market like we have today.
I think that if Adobe was going to dip their feet into the Linux market, they'd go in with ImageReady instead of Illustrator. ImageReady is closer to the needs of Linux users in that it's a scaled-down, web-centered version of Photoshop. This caters to all of the developers that sometimes want to fiddle with images.
Illustrator would be the LAST application I would port to Linux in that true designers (you know, the artsy ones that have never touched command line) would never go near a *nix.
I think the action they took was based on name alone... not because they saw it as a competitor. You know... protecting your name and such... you name is only as strong as you are willing to fight for it.
Instead of KIllustrator, they could rename it to KillUstrator, or Kill-U-Strator, or even better, Kill-U-Greedy-Corporate-Sons-of-Bitches.
Hmmm, I guess that last one doesn't really sound much like a graphics package though.
---------------------------------------------
SERENITY NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It just goes to show that your analogy was bad
to begin with.
Killustrator and Adobe Illustrator are competitors. They can solve the same problem,
so someone might pick (Linux and) Killustrator over (Windows and) Illustrator to fill their need
for a vector based drawing program. The operating system is not a given to people in need of a solution to a specific drawing problem, and they can in fact choose freely between Killustrator and Illustrator.
Killustrator IS competition to Illustrator. Why?
Because if someone out there suddently decided that he needed to do illustrations, he would be
free to acqure either. You are assuming that people are locked to one operating system. They are not. Some switch, some run both, and some don't even have a computer to begin with and let the operating system be decided by what program they want to run.
I'm not sure why you owe them any money. I think not. IANAL, but they cannot arbitrarily fine you. Not without a hearing and a judgement against you. The 2500 Euros seems like a scare tactic and they know darned well they are not entitled to it with said judgement against you.
/dev/null or the trashcan.
So change the name and forget about the money and move on. If they send you more email/letters asking for money, put them where they belong, in
Hit 'em with an even better name.
Prepending every application name with a letter (or three) does grate, IMO. But this is a bit silly. Hrmm, is there a KWord? Or a GWord? Or maybe Adobe is actually in the right here.
My "favorite" is the 'Konsole'...I keep expecting to see CCCP in the title bar for some reason.
Silliness: Will Gnome get a program (mostly) named spot?
I don't subscribe to RMS's GNUtopian vision.
Lack of Kreativity (a popular view of OSS). Why not just Klone a produkt *and* it's produkt name when you can just sprinkle Ks everywhere. It's less work, and everyone knows programmers have a hard time picking deskriptive names.
Fsck cluebie moderators. I'll say what I want, offtopic or not. And fsck having to qualify every bloody statement just
The Macintosh was supposed to be named "McIntosh", after mac creator Jef Raskin's "favorite eatin' apple". However, the audio equipment company McIntosh (makers of ridiculously priced record players) already had the name, so Apple changed the name to Macintosh.
Yes, the fact that I know these bits of trivia probably means I do need to get a life.
Feel free to prepend a G or a K to these as necessary.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
You said it all.
or some form of e-blackmail. How does Kai-Uwe know for a fact the "dissuasion" came from Adobe? Is someone just saying pay me E2500 and I won't sue you (this time)? I smell a rat. Who is asking for the money? What is their name and business address? Inquiring skeptics want to know.
The site's slow for me... probably swamped already. Here's a repost for ease-of-viewing:
List: koffice-devel
Subject: Adobe and KIllustrator
From: Kai-Uwe Sattler
Date: 2001-07-02 7:27:28
Hi,
I have just received a dissuasion from an Adobe lawyer that the name "KIllustrator" would violate Adobe's trademark and I should pay 2500 euro. So, I have closed the website at the moment. Could somebody with access to koffice.org remove all information about and links to Killu, please?
Thanks,
Kai
--
Kai-Uwe Sattler
...KAdobeSucks :-)
Seriously though, if this sticks, then KWord may face a similar threat from Microsoft down the road.
-Karl
Maybe someone should ask Prince if we can borrow his symbol. He has a fairly enlightened view of trademarks, and he might just let KIllustrator use it.
But I use it in Gnome
It wasn't lack of interest. Thousands (at least) downloaded it. Heaps more tried to, repeatedly. Lots couldn't get it to install. But it was a buggy, smelly piece of shit anyway. And, there's a pretty healthy lack of interest in it for Windows, and even Macintosh, which is why they tried it on Linux in the first place.
(ps. 3 of yours are available, you just have to look in the menu -- no its not in the same place. One of the other two is downloadable. Region grabbing is for amateurs, you won't get any real quality from Adobe either, and color matching *can* be done by hand)
No, Adobe can specifically recognize Killustrator as a separate product. I could have said Adobe can specifically grant Killustrator permission to use the name, but then Killustrator would be implicitly recognizing Adobe's exclusive right the word.
I bet KDE was putting the Adobe tech support number on their shrinkwrapped boxes of KIllustrator too, weren't they?
What is a dissuasion fee, and why is the lawyer asking for one?
> Linux is a word that has no other meaning what-so-ever outside the realm of computers. Like the original posteter said, "Illustrator" is a generic word which describes the purpose of the program.
Okay then, Adobe's new operating system, Kaldera (caldera = vocanic crater).
Or how about Adobe's GNU/Illustrator (gnu = African wildebeest), with all profits given to the K-Free Software Foundation (a wholly owned subsidiary of Adobe...free, software, and foundation are generic terms!). Do you think those are alright?
KIllustrator is a rip-off of the Illustrator name, and Adobe's complaint is valid. If some company was developing an Illustrator clone for the Mac, and called it MacIllustrator, they'd be in the same position. It's a confusingly similar name that detracts from the brand value of the original.
Now, my question is, why is it that when Microsoft rips off the name of something (when competing with 3com's Palm, Microsoft tried to name its product the Palm PC), everyone accuses them of unfair business practices, but when a group of OSS developers rip off the name of a product, everyone blames the people that are getting ripped off?
Can anyone with a straight face tell me that they could do the fatal mistake of buying Killustrator instead of Adobe Illustrator, because of name-confusion? I think not. I rest me case.
- Steeltoe
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
But "Killustrator" != "Illustrator". So if putting a K in front isn't different enough, just change from a noun to a verb too. Then it's different enough to make a lawsuit most unlikely to succeed.
BTW, I somehow doubt Adobe fear Killustrator as a competitor, or even think enough people have heard of it so as to dilute their trademark.
Maybe legal departments have to launch a certain number of random bullying demands to keep justifying their salary. If so, this one isn't a winner IMO --
Lawyer: You should keep paying me x hundred grand a year because I threatened some OSS developers.
His Boss: What'd we get out of it then?
Lawyer: Well, they might pay us 2500 euros, but they'll probably just change the name of their project a bit.
Boss: Riiihght. I see. And how much did we stand to lose from them competing with us?
Lawyer: Ummm.....
Smart move, I don't think.
-- What do you need?
-- Gnus. Lots of Gnus.
I think that if this goes to court, it will lose. KIllustrator is a name that was obviously chosen so as to appear as an alternative to Adobe Illustrator. Nevermind that it's a free product. It's not like this program handles disk partitioning; it does the same thing Adobe's offering does. What you have here is a program that does essentially the same thing as another company's program, and you want me to believe that it's just a coincidence that the names are similar? That's infringement.
Unless you can successfully argue that there is not a significant group of people (ie, people who use vector art software) who associate "illustrator" with the particular software package, the court isn't going to care that you in particular didn't know about it!
AC writes, Thats plain sick. Whats better for consumers is a better product, not a uniquely defined brand name. If Adobe really wants to seperate themselves from the rest, they should try something new like making a better product. But I guess that is just to simple.
Uniquely defined brand names help differentiate products, which leads to more accurate rewards for quality products. Just as you use "Adobe" to uniquely refer to the company in question, product brand names are important for uniquely referring to products. The KDE folks should be (and are) free to choose a new name and compete with Illustrator on the basis of quality; then, the consumer knows that the products are not related and she can make her choice more accurately.
Illustrator 9 actually is really good, by the way.
An AC flames, Right, this from the person who just said consumers will have a hard time diffrentiating Illustrator and Killustrator, is now saying only certain people who use vector art software will associate Illustrator with a particular kind of software (The irony is you said the answer right there, "a particular kind of software", versus saying "a particular software product". Lame.
Your argument is entirely inconsistent. I said that people will associate Illustrator with a particular software piece, NOT a particular kind of software. Look at the post again:
Unless you can successfully argue that there is not a significant group of people (ie, people who use vector art software) who associate "illustrator" with the particular software package, the court isn't going to care that you in particular didn't know about it!
What I am saying is that no significant amount of people who actually know about vector art software consider "Illustrator" to be a generic term describing the whole set (which would invalidate Adobe's claim); rather they know that it refers to the specific piece of software called Illustrator. Just being an english word does NOT MAKE IT GENERIC.
If you are following this thread closely enough to see replies to your AC posts, why don't you care enough to actually read the arguments made against you? Now *that* is lame. If you're just trying to troll, you should get some real content in there...
I don't see it. It's an English word, sure, but when someone says "illustrator" in this context I immediately know that they're talking about that specific Adobe product. "vector" is a generic term. "office" might be (since that class of applications is often known as "office suites"). But nobody uses "illustrator" to talk about the set of vector drawing programs generally.
I think Adobe is in the right here. Trademark law is one of the few useful intellectual property facilities that the government provides; consumers should not be mislead by confusingly named products.
2500 Euro is $2,117.00 so the lawyers would probably charge you more to just look at the case, and Adobe will most certainly keep going, even _if_ Killustrator win in court. As many people have mentioned before: Be more original :-)
I hear there is a new version out?
Free Manning, jail Obama.
Wasn't FrameMaker once ported to Linux? And, IIRC, Distiller does also exist in a Linux version. Also, could the behavior of Adobe be excused, if they had ported all their products over to Linux? I think not!
IMO, Adobe makes very decent software. I used PageMaker to typeset first my school newspaper and then my school yearbook and while I found the UI somewhat irritating, it produced great results. Photoship still kicks ass, and even on Linux I use PDF exclusivly when creating documents (with pdfTeX).
In the light of this, Adobe's attitude towards other companies or competition is very sad. (Kinda like Apple?)
Free Manning, jail Obama.
rename it kmud-and-grass-structure.
i can understand adobe's standpoint, when asked they'll say they have to protect it or they'll loose the right to...
still, i think a demand of money is a bit extreme here. they could be nicer about it.
Sitting Walrus Blog
In the begining, there was the Word and it had nothing to do with some stupid software company. Grief!
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
You'd probably win a fight over draw. Just like Apple's MacPaint and Mouse Paint (Apple //) could be copied as MS Paint. If you have an obvious name, it isn't a problem. Corel Draw can't claim the name Draw for a drawing program. They own Corel Draw however.
However, KDrawing would work, etc.
A Knive Company is NOT in the same category as Computer Software.
Fine... Hell, KDraw would probably be clearer. KVector would be fine. Hell, KVDraw would be okay.
The rest of the world extends effort on branding. They spend a fortune. The Open Source "community" can spend a 15 minute brainstorming session instead of just ripping off the name of an existing product.
I agree, I think that a fight over Word would be interesting, given the WordStar and WordPerfect issue. Additionally, renaming that is trivial, add something after word. KWordPro would work, if there was a fight. Illustrator however is a fight you'll lose, and SHOULD lose.
Alex
Adobe Illustrator is NOT descriptive. It is a vector based drawing program. Word is a Word Processor. Word is used descriptively. Word is a WEAKER trademark in this regards than Illustrator.
However, ask yourself why the KDE team named their vector based drawing program KIllustrator and their word processor KWord? It is INTENDED to capitalize on the good will of Adobe and Microsoft.
Can any of you HONESTLY say that KIllustrator isn't similar to Illustrator. It is designed AS a knock-off product with a similar name. It is INTENDED for a user to think, wow, this will be similar to the Illustrator that I know.
Why does the Free Software "community" do stuff like this? The rest of the world is comfortable competing (with a few monopolies excluded) fairly. Why does the "community" feel that they can appropriate the names of their competitors.
Linux is NOT just a play toy any more. Severally publically traded companies use it as a basis for business. Many more privately held companies use it as well.
If the whole point of "open source" was to make Free Software viewed favorably in the business community, maybe it is time to grow up.
Referring to Microsoft as M$, MacroHard, etc., does't help you.
If you DON'T care about the business world, than just ignore them and do your own thing. But if your goal is to get your software used, why don't we try acting like adults.
Companies are NOT going to adopt Linux and other "community" projects if its proponents INSIST on acting like 15 year olds.
Act like adults. You're playing with the big boys now, which is quite an accomplishment. But childishness, appropriating trademarks, etc., isn't getting you anywhere.
Declaring everything generic, obvious, and not worthy of protection isn't getting you anywhere. Microsoft is going to succeed in banning government funding of GPL'd work if they are able to paint their opponents as 15 year old intend on undermining the cause of productivity increases of the past 15 years.
The GPL turns copyright on its head. It allows cooperative based development. However, it undermines IT development companies.
First step of winning this public relations war is to act like adults. The NEXT step is to start respectfully competing. And copying everything from everyone else, including names, isn't going to convince the public that you are innovating and improving the economy. It makes you look like children.
My business is based upon various Open Source programs. The "community" earns my company and others a bad rap.
Alex
And I'd like to believe that everybody is free to derive products name from commomly used descriptive words, regardless of previous trademarks. It stands to reason. But reason and law have divorced many years ago, making happy the lawyers population. Therefore I won't bet on that one, too.
Ciao
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FB
Yeah, that'll teach them. A buncha people, who wouldn't buy anything from them since nothing's available for Linux, sending emails. I'm sure it'll greatly influence their decisions.
Make affiliate bucks
First, Adobe *has* to do this. I realize most /.ers don't understand IP law past "information wants to be free!", but trademarks have to be defended in order to remain valid.
If Adobe allowed KIllustrator to exist as a product and didn't do anything about it, Microsoft could (for instance) release a product called MS Illustrator. Adobe wouldn't be able to do anything about it -- they didn't fight KIllustrator, what possible objection could they have to MS Illustrator? They would very likely lose their trademark if they knowingly allowed a clearly similar product to use such a similar name. I doubt very many of you would take Microsoft's side in that fight, so why do you all take KOffice's side? Oh, right, open source guys should be able to do whatever the hell they want and all big companies are evil. Silly me, I forgot.
Second, I keep seeing people say you shouldn't be able to trademark simple words. Okay, "Windows" is a simple word. So you don't think Microsoft should be able to fight a piece of software called "KWindows"? Probably not. How about "Doom"? Another software. Should id software just blithely accept it if some Linux geek writes a first-person shooter called "KDoom"?
Folks, "Illustrator" is a graphics package by Adobe. The name "KIllustrator" was almost certainly chosen *because* of the name "Illustrator", not just as a coincidence. The fact that it's an open-source project does not grant it legal immunity, and it doesn't excuse such shameless and unethical trademark violation. Yes, that's right -- I consider it unethical for the authors of this program to have blatantly copied the name of a successful graphics package. How can you defend that?
ZFS: because love is never having to say fsck
KDraw
KVect
Vector
KZoom
Kinaip (KIllustrator is not an illustrator program)
KINA (Killustrator is not Adobe's)
Killer (hehe just liked it)
Kindaworks (just kidding)
KSector
KDesign
KDez
KID (KDE Illustrator & Designer)
KPaper
KLogo
Kongo (KDE ordinary numeric graphic organizer)
Kless (care less... never mind)
Kudos (KDE user drawing open system)
KShape
KShifter
KShifty (better)
KAraw (merge of arrange and draw)
KAxis
KMockup
Kvasa (KDE vector art sequencing application)
KI2
KII
K$*%# (hehe)
KDiva (Digital illustration and vector arranger)
I can start an architectural firm called 'Adobe Builders' and I can build an ink pen marketed as 'The Illustrator' without a problem at all (from Adobe SW at least). I can not start a software design firm called 'Badobe Software' or design a graphics program called 'Killistrator' (obviously) because they can be construed, rather easily, to mislead the public.
Insanity is the last line of defence for the master diplomat. But you have to lay the groundwork early.
You just discovered how trademarks work!
You can not make a car called Vector nor a knife called Vector, but you can make a Double Battery Helix Master (for instance) called the Vector. Capiche?
I think they should call it Kqkbnwglsd. That way no self respecting company would sue them -- the word isn't even pronouncable!
That's a Cat word! It's the sound you make when you get your genitals stuck in something. ;)
Insanity is the last line of defence for the master diplomat. But you have to lay the groundwork early.
You can't have it all! 3D software is doing better in getting ported to Linux than nearly any other commercial sector. Maya, Houdini and Performer are all across to start with. I guess you are looking for 3DSMax, Softimage and Lightwave, but if I remember correctly Softimage and Lightwave are both coming! Just because your favourite app hasn't been ported to your favourite OS does not mean you can knock the OS! I would guess graphics professionals from an SGI platform would make the exact same comments about having to keep their Indy/Onyx/Reality Station around if they are trying to change to any other platform. Video Editing software on the other hand ... it would be nice to see anyone porting over to Linux.
Never underestimate the dark side of the Source
If "Adobe Illustrator" did not exist I do believe that the KDE guys could still have called the ap KIllustrator! Propose some other names for me.... KDrawer has Corel unhappy and doesn't read as well. KSketcher doesn't read well and sounds more amateurish. KPaint ... well it's not a paint program. Need I continue? Is their a more obvious name that should have been used which means the same and doesn't conflict with a commercial Ap? Now if they had called it KDE Illustrator ... perhaps I would allow an argument but as all companies seem to like to insist that their product is called "Adobe Illustrator" and NOT "Illustrator" so as to ensure higher brand awareness I think they should be told to FO when they claim that "Corel Illustrator" is conflicting. Without the company name qualifier Illustrator is an English word used normally to describe the programs action, if they wanted to have a protectable name they should have called it "A.V.I.C.T." for adobe vector illustration computer tool and then KDE would never have released KAVICT or even KVICT. Adobe are just trying to bully their way out of a stupid decision, I hope someone can give the KDE guys some good Legal advice and that they can tell Adobe to FO.
Never underestimate the dark side of the Source
Why I asked for a name is because Illustrator is an extremely obvious and descriptive name for the product! Windows on the other hand is not so obvious (yes we call them windows, but are they?) so it is feasable to protect from another gui OS or window manager calling itself Windows. Could I release a word processor called writer and try to stop anyone else using the name (originality issues not withstanding)?
Never underestimate the dark side of the Source
Not to beat this into the ground, but all a project has to do is insure that it's "owners" have nothing worth suing for, cause when the law is this stupid you gotta hold it in contempt!
Never underestimate the dark side of the Source
why there wasn't all sorts of legal trouble because of the similarity between MS Word and Corel WordPerfect. We're a lot less tolerant about IP then we used to be.
"Could somebody with access to koffice.org remove all information about and links to Killu, please?"
They're already using the Killu nickname on the mail list. It kinda grabs your attention.
Nobody called the program Kadobe!
How about this new name....
Kadobel
Then there's also: KOffUs, KQuackulator, KWite, etc.
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Those who would give up liberty in exchange for security and DRM should switch to Microsoft Palladium!
At least the original author didn't say something like "appended to the begining." That one always bugs the hell out of me.
:-) name?
;-)
(and now to disguise this post as on-topic)
While I prefer KDE to GNOME, I too am a bit sick of K-this and K-that. It works well to brand a package as written for KDE, but the vast majority of packages (that I have encountered) have done nothing more to come up with a name than to prefix a K to the name of a comparable package.
I honestly don't find "Adobe Illustrator" & "KIllustrator" confusingly similar, but if I was familiar with Adobe Illustrator (I'm not), I know I would expect KIllustrator to be very similar. If KIllustrator is truly unique (again, I'm not familiar) when compared with Illustrator, why the hell would you want to name it KIllustrator?! Why not KDEasyDraw or any other (equally lame
/. karma can kiss my ass, I don't post AC (unless I'm not logged in and the Palm isn't handy
"You point your finger at the moon, the fool stares at your finger."
IANAL, but actually, it's quite the contrary. Trademarks explicitly exist for the protection of common words and phrases as they apply to businesses. The phrase "where do you want to go today?" is trademarked. Microsoft can't stop you from saying it, but they can stop you from using it to promote your produce.
Of course the name is slightly differentiated. In a normal case you'd lose by only slightly changing the name, but since this one is so simple and generic, it could go either way in court.
Basically, if it creates confusion, then Adobe can win. Will the courts decide that the average user has any trouble differentiating between KIllustrator and Illustrator? Tough call.
Errr...that was supposed to be "product", not "produce". They probably couldn't stop you from using that phrase to promote your produce; the products are too different. Unless Microsoft wanted to move into the produce market...
Linux is a word that has no other meaning what-so-ever outside the realm of computers. Like the original posteter said, "Illustrator" is a generic word which describes the purpose of the program. I don't see it as being any worse than StarOffice or OpenOffice vs. Microsoft Office.
Well, what do you expect? The name does violate their trademark. If you want to make clones of popular programs, you'd damn well name them something different.
Furthermore, trademark holders are obligated to protect their trademarks; if they do not pursue trademark violation issues they know about, then future infringers can use that as a valid defense.
max
Kill-Us-Traitors
The new vector drawing program brought to you by the same people who made Kough-Ice .
I would think that the capatilization of the I would cause a problem
There is no difference under trademark law between Killustrator and KIllustrator. Trademarks under the Lanham Act fold to uppercase, which is why Adobe's trademarks are on "ILLUSTRATOR" and "ADOBE ILLUSTRATOR".
Will I retire or break 10K?
I think we should bombard Adobe with Emails, Amnesty International Style. Does anyone have the Email address for the CXOs?
I guess Adobe just doesn't realize how silly and ridiculous this whole thing is. It's not like they're stealing customers from Adobe, with Killustrator being for Linux, and Adobe with uhm... absolutely no programs for Linux.
StarOffice
CorelOffice
Microsoft Office
additionally since according to Adobe lawyers KIllustrator seems to be insufficient, would'nt:
KDEIllustrator
Be more than sufficient? Just a suggestion.
Since when can you trademark a work as common as "illustrator" when applied to computer programs?
Seriously, I've seen many programs that are advertised as an "illustrator tool" or such.
I mean, look in the dictionary, it has 4 different definitions! Can you trademark all four uses for it?
Ever need an online dictionary?
Adobe has the right to keep Illustrator exclusive as their name for any vector based drawing tool.
KIllustrator should just switch it's name to KVector. No big deal.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
The example that gets thrown around most often is "Coca-Cola" and "Coke". If it weren't for trademark protection, all sorts of folks would try to make cheap knock-offs of Coke and sell them in red cans designed to look the same on the shelf. Fortunately, as a consumer, when you see the can that looks like Coca-Cola, you can be sure you're going to get what you expect. It's quite legal to make a similar cola, and many companies do, but if you make the can the same red/white color and use similar fonts, you've stepped over the line.
As far as Adobe is concerned, it's easy to see their concern that their customers (or perspective customers) may be looking at various linux (gnu/linux) distributions and say to themselves "Wow, Linux now has KIllustrator, and Illustrator is the thing that's been holding me back from giving Linux a try", or even "Illustrator is expensive, but it I buy this cheap Linux CD, it comes with the 'K' version of Illustrator; what a bargain!" It's easy to see how someone could mistake it for a "lite" version of the "real thing".
What does seem strange is Adobe's demand for a relatively small sum of money. I would have expected them to demand an immediate name change.
PJRC: Electronic Projects, 8051 Microcontroller Tools
I'm sorry, but saying that the two products don't compete is rediculous. If I'm looking for a vector graphics solution, I can buy a Windows/Mac shop with Illustrator or set up a Linux shop with KIllustrator (not as good, but *free*). They perform the same function. They both compete for the "vector art" dollar. If you're looking at the "vector art for Windows" dollar, certainly they don't. That comparison is like saying that IIS and Apache or Exchange and Sendmail don't compete. Different operating systems, yes. However, they are substitutable.
As for the actual trademark, it's obvious that KIllustrator was using the name to imply (correctly) that it's like the famous Adobe Illistrator. It's not a terrible thing to do since they're not making a profit, but Adobe certainly has every right to be angry (and litigious) about the fact that a competitor (read: one whose products can substitute for theirs and cost them money) is using the fame that Adobe has earned to further their competing product's name recognition. It's sad to see a well intentioned project get bumped around like this, but Adobe is well justified in keeping competitors from stealing its thunder.
An interesting anagram of "BANACH TARSKI" is "BANACH TARSKI BANACH TARSKI"
is about 2160 US$
Maybe, but Adobe is also a word in the dictionnary (it's a type of dirt)
try his then
adobe
Hopefully this isn't a double post. Anyway, I thought I'd throw these out: odds are no one would complain about conflicting with other names, and hopefully they have a little style. (Of course, they aren't descriptive, but I suspect all of those words are trademarked. If the programs are good enough they will define the associations.) Killustrator - Krepario Kword - Krescripti Kspread - Krelamina Kpresenter - Krepasten Krayon - Kreimagio and for Koffice itself - Ferramenta Libertas!
"I object to doing things that computers can do." -- Olin Shivers, lispers.org
sounds like they are being selective. can this be used against them (you either defend ALL your trademarks or none...)
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"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
But the software doesnt do the illustration, thats the job of the user surely ?
That's why I suggest the name FancyPencil.
Ok, I just registered kadobe.com.
Any suggestions for what I should do with it?
After a few web searches I was able to find Killustrator code as far back as Feb 1999. Now 2 1/2 years later they are pursuing this. Is there a statute of limitations on this ?
I know it is a lot for a developer to cough up for a software project they don't even make money on. That's not what I'm trying to say.
Just that it seems that if Adobe really wanted to get them to stop using the name, they would have said "stop right now, hand over your firstborn son or we'll sue you into oblivion".
This seems (and having not read the letter from Adobe's Lawyers, I can only surmise) more like they said "well, we can't just let them go around using a similar-sounding name, but they really aren't doing us any harm... what, should we throw a letter over to them and ask for a couple grand or something?"
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There is much cruelty in the universe, John.
Yeah, we seem to have the tour map.
That was the generic name for programs like Illustrator once upon a time. Though I don't doubt there's a principle here -- there's a running thing on the Register about a company called EasyGroup that's been cracking down on Easy*.com sites.
Funny, back in middle school I wrote an OS shell for the Commodore 128 called EasySys -- am I in violation?
/Brian
How about "KVectorBasedDrawingProgram?"
This sig is xenon coated, and will glow red when in the presence of aliens
Banzai!
:P)!
:)
Ok, so somebody has a TM on some product name, to protect himself. Nothing wrong with that, I agree on this one. Now, for a change let's think about this with clear head. KIllustrator is a program where you can, well Illustrate, so why not name it KIllustrate? Oh, because somebody tradmarked word Illustrate. Ah well, how more insane can we get? I'm just gonna go and trademark 'word processor' and then threaten anyone who will dare to use this two words to describe their product, god forbid use them in the name of their product (just don't start complaining that it's KIllustrator and not KIllustrate...
People whine about insane software patents. Don't you think that those kind of trademarks are even more insane? Somebody patented their work and everyone is complaining about it, but when somebody 'patents' a word everyone says it is ok? Give us non-americans a break, pleaseeeee!!!! I agree completely with Adobe, but, threats to someone that's using similar name, to theirs?
What is too much, it is just too much...
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I never wanted to go anywhere. I'm happy here...
The Sig, the sig
I usually side with the OS guys whenever something like this happens, but not this time. "KIllustrator" is so obviously stepping on Adobe's toes. They were there first.
Adobe has traditionally been one of the "good guys." They have always been on the side of the developers, and have a developer culture themselves. And Illustrator is their flagship product, not some obscure thing they are toying with for market research. They have used this name since the 80's, for god's sake. Give them a break, be mature for once, use another name.
Rename it to:
kAdobeSucks
That should keep them happy, and if they complain again, you can use the WIPO decision about -sucks domains as proof that you are complying with the law.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
If I were using KDE I could call it Kwicken!
I think I'll call it, "Slacken," instead!
what about ClarisOffice (which today is known as AppleOffice)
You mean ClarisWorks / AppleWorks. AppleWorks was originally available for the Apple ][ series of machines in the late 1970s... and is now available for Mac OS X. As far as the "Office" name, I don't know how far back it goes, but the software for the Lisa (Apple's original GUI machine in 1982 - 1984) was Lisa Office System. The Macintosh shipped in 1984 with apps such as MacWrite, MacPaint, and MacDraw (all Apple apps). Microsoft made a Mac GUI version of Word later that year.
Adobe legally must enforce its trademarked names, or they fall into common usage. If they fall into common usage, Adobe no longer has legal protection over the name. So if Adobe fails to enforce its rights over a name for a similar product with which there is a high probability of confusion between its product (Illustrator) and K's product (Killustrator), it looses the rights to the Illustrator name. It's not a conspiracy. It's just what they have to do to run their business.
This reminds me of another dispute where Kellogg's cereal tried to block a band from trademarking the name "The Toucans", claiming that it infringed on their "Toucan Sam" trademark and also claimed damages as a result of the band's name! They claimed the band's name confused their customers. More details of the dispute.
The issue here is moot. Its a common name. A simple word.
To pull an example from the non-computing world, "Dodge" is a fairly common word, yet do you believe you could get away by starting a car company named "Dodger"?
And in other news, SlashDot is being sued by:
Guns N' Roses, who has a trademark on "Slash"
Warner Brothers, for the Animaniacs character "Dot".
bah.
by having a project which is not-for-profit, and realeases source code under a free license, i am within my rights to infringe on anyone's patent or trademark or any other form of IP.
I don't think that's really the issue here. The issue is that "illustrator" is a word for a specific job and task- making illustrations. Adobe's program that is used to create illustrations is called "Adobe Illustrator". They think Killustrator is too close of a name. But is it, really? Is the name MacPaint infringing on MS Paint (or vice versa, MacPaint was probably first, now that I think about it)? I don't think there is anyway someone could confused Killustrator with Adobe Illustrator, so it would not seem to be a trademark violation. If they called it "Adobe kIllustrator", maybe then it could cause confusion.
I think people try to go way to far in trying to control the use of common dictionary words... This is an example of that. It's an illustration program, what the hell else are they going to call it? Will the company that makes "Sound Edit" now sue any company that makes an audio program with the word edit in the title? Should MS sue the makers of StarOffice? or Corel, didnt they have software called CorelWord?
Josh Sisk
What is the current exchange rate of Euros to dollars
As of today, 1 Euro == 0.8455 USD.
-P
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I hate people who quote
This really is getting out of hand ... and I hope something is done about it soon or else before we know it, every freaking 3 and 4 letter word in the dictionary will be associated with a product.
Someone should call their next software project and trademark the name, and then sue anyone else that uses 3 and 4 letter words in their name since their product is confusingly similar.
Back in around 1984 a UK company called Gilsoft created a piece of software called "Illustrator". It was an add-on to their text adventure system - "The Quill" - and allowed the games to be enhanced with graphical images.
Up yours, Adobe!
Do you have issues with the fact that the company name is registered as a trademark? If so, you are essentially saying that one can only trademark words or phrases not in the accepted lexicon.
My sister-in-law has a funny job. She is a former television producer and her current job is as a consultant "auditing" large corporations public relations departments'. The company will implement a scenario. Eg. "300 workers died in a chemical fire". She will then pose as a reporter and badger their PR department. Did they give out too much information? Did they express an appropriate level of regret without assuming liability? etc etc.
Pretty crazy world we live in huh?
Extrapolating from other stories she has told me, I wouldn't be at all surprised if, after having looked at some of these "pro-Adobe" comments if some of them have been written by Adobe paid/sponsored shills.
Slashdot is pretty well known in mainstream tech circle's as the mouthpiece of the free software/open source movement. It only makes sense to try to subvert community opinion within a public forum. It's good "PR".
IMHO, I think it's pretty stupid to believe that the word Illustrator with a "K" tacked onto the front of it infringes Adobe's trademark. Trademarks were never intended to cover the English language, just things like logos, that identify a product uniquely. If a person cannot tell the difference between "KIllustrator" and "Adobe Illustrator", then that same person probably cannot tell the difference between "KIllustrator (a software package) and an Illustrator (a human who draws). That person by my definition would be an idiot.
...
I know the ol' IANAL, but... But please, people, as much as Trademark and Copyright law is discussed here, can you please get the gist of these laws before spouting off nonsense?
You cannot register a trademark name after it is in common use and them successfully sue for infringement the people who were using it before you. Therefore, if you register a trademark on Wordprocessor and tried to sue anyone using this term, you'd not only lose the case, but lose your trademark if you had registered it.
Just because a name is obvious, does not mean it is not trademarkable. Trademarks do come from the patent office, but are not the same thing. Any name, word, phrase or imagery is trademarkable so long as it represents a trade or traded item, and is not currently in use by another similar company. So Adobe's trademark on Illustrator, though obvious, is also legit and perfectly legal. They can ask people not to call their software's name "Illustrator", but they can't stop people from saying their software is great for illustrators.
And you cannot dilude people's trademarks by comparing them. For example, you cannot market Coke as the Intelligent Pepsi. It doesn't work that way. You can say that Coke has a better taste than Pepsi, if you have any reports that say so, but you cannot say that Coke is the red-canned Pepsi, etc.
So therefore, KDE cannot name their illustrator-like software, "The KDE Illustrator" in any fashion. Leave this to the reviewers.
Dragon Magic
Human nature is the same everywhere; the modes only are different. -- Earl of Chesterfield
And a building made from the same name is not a dwelling?
Dragon Magic
Human nature is the same everywhere; the modes only are different. -- Earl of Chesterfield
No, you can trademark common names. Ford is a trademark (and a passing), Apple is a trademark (and a fruit), Adobe is a trademark (and a dwelling)...
But trademarks that common can only be associated with a class of trade. For Adobe, Illustrator covers computer software. That means someone can release a trademarked item for a supply of painting aids, like brushes, with the name Illustrator, too.
It's when the name becomes unique, like "Microsoft", that the trademarked name itself is hard to trademark again by another company.
So, from trademark law, Adobe's full in their right to kill the name Killustrator, because it is similar to their trademark. However, why not rename it to Killware or something else? Make it unique enough, then Adobe has nothing but hopes that their money can help them win.
Dragon Magic
Human nature is the same everywhere; the modes only are different. -- Earl of Chesterfield
The new first-person shoot-em-up that's sweeping the nation! Use your vector and spline drawing tools to hunt down and exterminate art department interns gone BAD!
Killustrator! For Mac, PC, PSX2, and X-Box. (An unsupported Linux version is available for alpha download.)
Honorary Member of Jackie Chan's Kung Fu Process Servers
I think this is only "confusing" if you pronounce it as "K- Illustrator." I think Adobe wouldn't make such a fuss if everyone would pronounce it like I do, as in "kill - ustrator." Personally, I think Adobe wouldn't even try to associate itself with THAT name.
The amusing part is that they really promote the fact that the SVG standard is open and, as such, Open Source development is a large part of the promise of SVG.
I hope Adobe realizes how much they rely on Open Source for the success of this initiative.
Prof. Frink: "Here is an ordinary square."
Prof. Frink: "Here is an ordinary square."
Cheif Wiggum: "Whoa, whoa. Slow down, egghead!"
There are plenty of simular names they could have used. How about kIllustration, its different enough. Is the same thing as SSH and OpenSSH, sure there different. But, someone new to the sceen might not know the difference.
If they don't defeand there name, how can they in the future. Now, weather or not Adobe should port there products to Linux is a completly seperate issue.
until (succeed) try { again(); }
until (succeed) try { again(); }
It's Adobe Illustrator, like McDonalds Hamburger.
There's nothing distinctive about the second part of the name, it's a functional description. This is like Kleenix Tissue trying to own the word 'Tissue.'
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
Right, and I'll sue all Microsoft executives who are sympathetic to the GPL.
Or KWAKBAS (KWAKBAS WAs Killustrator But Adobe Sued)
This, and putting a message on the splash screen & about box urging people not to buy anything from Adobe. Like Graphics Workshop (Windows image-converting shareware) did with Unisys.
Adobe also made a version of Framemaker for Linux, which I still have on my hardfile.
A host is a host from coast to coast, but no one uses a host that's close
Am I dumb? This sounds like it implies a trademark violation on vector based drawing. According the to the letter and all the responses here, it's simply a naming trademark. We have so many stories like this being posted now a days, is it worth of a full post, rather than a Slashback? I would have been much more interested if Adobe had a copyright on vector based drawing. Along with everyone elses position: change the name and move on. Waste your time writing code, not fighting name infringements.
there are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots
.....the authors of Knapster
I'm sure they would like to be on the winning end of at least one court battle
Hmmmm.... a vector illustration program with a name suspiciouly reminiscent of the industry leader.
Adobe has a lot vested in Illustrator and I see no reason why they shouldn't put pressure on people who consciously ride their coattails.
The folks responsible for Killustrator probably haven't put much original functionality into the program wither if they can't even come up with an original name.
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Pooty tweet
Oh come on. How many Linux L33t kidz are gonna fork out $600 for Illustrator let alone bother toactually learn how to use the program in any useful fashion? I can see it now, "This UI is horrible! Where the CLI? I could just program all of this in postscript! (in ten years) Why are there two pointer thingies?" Illustrator is a program for graphic designers and Linux is not a platform known to draw many graphic designers.
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Pooty tweet
I've used the GIMP before and it's just not a professional level tool on par with Photoshop. I appreciate the existence of the GIMP. It's an important product, but it just doesn't match up to the level of sophistication and elegance of Photoshop.
The idea of the GIMP as a serious contender for the throne of image editing is just ludicrous though.
And yes, people do tend to rely on filters a bit too much.... when they're beginning. As your talent level matures, you discover there are much more efficient and sophisticated ways to achieve many of the same effects without the destructive effects of filters.
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Pooty tweet
The real threat to adobe whould be if killustrator got ported to OSX (a good posibility givin OSX's Unix underbelly). how many graphic artists using Macs would abandon Illustrator for a free version? there is already a lot of interest in GIMP, the free photoshopish application .
No serious graphic artist in their right mind is going to give up Illustrator or Freehand or Photoshop for free versions of apps with functionality that only matches standards that were acceptable 5 or 6 years ago. The GIMP is great for people who really don't need to get serious commercial quality work done under serious deadlines and just want to create simple graphics for the desktop or web pages, but for those of us who actually do need to get work done fast and efficiently, well I'll stick with Photoshop and Illustrator despite their hefty price tags. One or two job can pay for both apps very easily!
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Pooty tweet
But that assumes that someone picks the hardware first and then picks the operating system. Often times, this isn't the case. Most consumers, for example, wouldn't buy a computer that's three times as fast as an Intel-based machine of the same price, but that doesn't run Windows.
This is not over patents. Although the linked message does not explicitly state this, this is either trademark or servicemark. See comment 20 for more info.
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Video meliora proboque deteriora sequor - Ovidius
It seems to me that they are filing under trademark law, but not in the USA. In the USA a trademark may not be filed if it is for a generic term. In a perfect world. But the world is not perfect, and may trademarks are granted (Toast, anyone? Perhaps SSH?) If a company builds a brand name that is obscure (Yahoo!, for example) then all well and good, I believe they ought be able to preserve that; but I do not believe you should be able to file and receive a trademark for a name which describes the product and/or its abilities. ie Illustrator.
Just my 2c.
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Video meliora proboque deteriora sequor - Ovidius
thesaurus.com
Or, for the lazy...
synonyms for "artist"
And...
definition of "trademark"
<caveman>
Adobe no GPL! Adobe no Linux! Adobe for profit! No like Adobe!
</caveman>
That's what trademarks are for, to protect Mom and Dad from being ripped off.
This is an entirely different issue: Here Adobe is doing the rip-off: They are trying to deprive us of the use of the word "Illustrator". That's what's wrong with trademarks today, they are not any longer a mean to protect us from rip-offs, they are used to deprive us of our natural language, our common cultural heritage.
You don't seriously think that anybody will konfuse Killustrator with Adobe Illustrator, do you? Really?
OK, I agree that Killustrator isn't the most kreative name, but hell, Adobe could have been more kreative too, if they wouldn't want anybody else to use the same word.
Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
First, for the Star Trekkers....
- Klingonstrator or Klingonart or Klingart
- Kirkillustrator
For the M.A.S.H. crowd...- Klingerstrator
- Klingerart
For Superman fans...- Kryptonart
A real "cool" suggestion:- KryoStrator
A metric suggestion:- KiloStrator
Others:"Sometimes a woman is a kind of religion, she can save your soul & set you free from all your sins" - Bad Examples
The favorite-
others...
"Sometimes a woman is a kind of religion, she can save your soul & set you free from all your sins" - Bad Examples
I think I'm going to try to trademark the word "motherfucker" so I can sue all rappers that speak english.
Just as soon as "Abusing the Legal System for dummies" comes out.
-since when did 'MTV' stand for Real World Television instead of MUSIC television?
I can see how taking a trademarked (or even commercially used and later trademarked) term could, in some cases, be considered infringement (see http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/06/25/211520 0&mode=thread). But, um, last I checked, "illustrator" was a generic term. No monkeybusiness with capital letters in the middle, or it actually being an acronym, or whatever. It's a plain word. I thought they couldn't do that.
funny munging
From my email of 29 June 2001 to UK Patent Office. I was explaining to them the solution to trademark use on the Internet. Neither the United States Patent and Trademark Office or the Department of Commerce could deny my assertions.
"Every word in our dictionary seems used for trademarks in the whole English-speaking world. Most are used many times over. Your search engine is not as good as USPTO, but was able to find following - JUST IN THE UK ALONE:
a. Words from Alpha (very many entries inc. E232330) to Zeta (many inc. 773747).
b. Words from Aardvark (several inc. E207464) to Zulu (few inc. 1365085)."
WIPO.org.uk
Maybe the name cut too close to the bone?
sulli
RTFJ.
I'm not defending Adobe here -- but who knows, maybe they have a Linux Illustrator in the works, and have reason to defend their trademark? Just something to think about...
Intellectual honesty time: Would KIllustrator have that name if Adobe Illustrator didn't exist?
Here's the real question, tho: Why do Window-hating Linux developers clone of Windows applications and technologies? We have clones of Word, Visio, TWAIN -- hell, KDE and Gnome often try to clone Windows, right down to the damnable "Start" button.
YUCK!
Of course, Linux itself is a clone, so maybe I'm expecting too much of its developer community...
Write a killer app for Linux, and people will come.
--
Scott Robert Ladd
Master of Complexity
Destroyer of Order and Chaos
All about me
Sounds like those environmentalists who destroy property to protest the destruction of the environment... ;)
My point is: Why would Joe Shmoe move his officeplace to Linux, if Linux presents itself as a clone of Windows? Office apes don't care about free software; they just want to do their job. Why go with a Linux clone when you can just buy Windows have have the original?
--
Scott Robert Ladd
Master of Complexity
Destroyer of Order and Chaos
All about me
I already posted this as an earlier reply. Posting again so it gets more visibility. Um, actually they do have a trademark on "Illustrator" : http://tess.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=ck s87k.4.11 I didn't think you could trademark a generic word (e.g. a word that's in the dictionary), but I guess this shows that you can.
Linux has gotten big enough that Adobe has to recognize it as an OS for their software. I personally would really like to see some more graphics software for Linux. Not having some of the big 3D software is what has kept my windows partician around.
X Windows isn't an OS.
Why not name your program "Whiz Bang 3.0: The best page layout program for Linux" and avoid all these problems. I agree that it's ridiculous for Adobe to sue, but why invite trouble?
Be fair. They had a port of Framemaker 5.5.6 for Linux available last year for beta-testing. It was time limited to 31 December 2000. Unfortunately, due to lack of interest from the community, they decided not to release it commercially.
From all those KDE software. Then they may start working on their spelling. It's not German, it's not Esperanto, and it's definitely not English: Konqeuror (wrong spelling), killustrator (is it kill-us-trator? wrong speeling for trator), KWord (may be they meant KiwkiMart) KSpread (a spread made by Kraft).
Ah, well. One can only hope.
The lawsuit is over the name, not the function of the software.
Okay, let me put it more bluntly. If Adobe loses ONE customer because someone used a similar product with a similar name ... a VERY similar name ... they have lost money. Adobe has the right to sue for LOST money, not money someone else has made. That's the crux of the problem, and it seems too many people can't see that.
You've got to understand what a market is. A market is NOT the general population. A market is a population of consumers who is a subset of the general population, and what statistics and assumptions that apply to the general population do NOT apply to a market. Adobe does excellent market research and product development. There are lots of Linux servers, but very few medium to large corporations use Linux as a server platform. It's changing (thankfully), but not that quickly. Why would Adobe develop a product for Linux when it's main customer for server applications (medium to large-sized corporations) doesn't even run the platform? Don't you think Adobe would develop and MARKET a product if they thought they could make money from it? The Linux community is NOT a money generating consumer base. Why would Adobe try to sell a product to folks who can get most of what they want for free?
Oh yeah, and thanks for catching my Copyright/Trademark slipup.
People may not like Adobe just because they don't write stuff for Linux, but that is Adobe's choice. A company that is out for profit isn't obligated to write software for a particular platform just because many people feel that it's the right thing to do. This is a company that sells stock and is obligated to turn a profit. Writing this type of software for the Linux OS may not be the right thing to do for the business. Remember, this is the company that didn't write stuff for Windows until the early to mid-90's simply because they didn't think it was economically feasible.
But getting back on topic, maybe people should consider copyright infringement issues before they name their software. Being contrarian for it's own sake is silly.
case closed... certainly more intuitive than Illustrator.
Interactive Visual Medical Dictionary
This would be a very interesting thing to see resolved. Yes, KIllustrator is a confusingly simlar name. But the two products are not in direct competition. They don't even run on a common platform. Toss in that one is free and you raise all kinds of questions about damages.
Tacking something on a generic name is the standard for the industry:
MS Windows, X-Windows
AutoCAD, IntelliCAD
WordStar, Word Perfect, MS Word, AMI Word Pro
MS Office, Word Perfect Office, McAfee Office
Adobe Photoshop, Corel Photopaint
MS FrontPage, Adobe Pagemaker
MS Windows 2000, Norton Utilities 2000
See how the same words keep popping up in similar or even totally different packages?
Maybe there can be a slight change that would solve the problem. Maybe KDE Illustrator as someone suggested.
Because if some decision isn't reached, it's going to get a lot worse if everyone has to battle over names.
Viv
-----------
Viv
Gmail invites for ip
There is a big honking difference between KIllustrator and GAIM.
GAIM is taken from a trademarked acronym.
KIllustrator is taken from Illustrator, while may be trademarked name for piece of software, it is also derived from the job title of the person who would be using the software. I don't think that trademark Illustrator is trademarkable, but "Adobe Illustrator" certainly is. Is KIllustrator confusable or diluting the "Adobe Illustrator" trademark?
Perhaps the KDE team shoud change the name to Kommercial Artist keeping with the K- theme.
If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
The real threat to adobe whould be if killustrator got ported to OSX (a good posibility givin OSX's Unix underbelly). how many graphic artists using Macs would abandon Illustrator for a free version? there is already a lot of interest in GIMP, the free photoshopish application .
Or maybe it's fraud? Somebody impersonating Adobe's lawyers? Seriously, does anybody have a link to the original message from Adobe? Other corroboration?
It's not just the userbase, you understand, but the graphics and print culture that has to exist in Linux.
If Adobe were to port Photoshop, Illustrator, etc, to Linux, it almost requires that Linux have it's own printshop culture to sustain the growth and development efforts.
It's like asking the Japanese to import dolphin meat into the US just because we like Anime and eat sushi; there isn't the cultural support for the eating of dolphins for that to be feasible...
Geek dating!
GPL Deconstructed
... like KDraw (oops "Draw" is taken).
...
err KDrawingTool KIllustrationDrawer ??
You get the drift. Something that can't be claimed to be the same as the competing products but still benefits from word association and is obvious about what it can do
Now, about the letter "G".
- - - If the sun is a star, why can't I see it at night?
...I'd hate to see is a little popup window that says "Compare to Illustrator!" like the packaging violators on many private-label consumer products. You know, like the "Our Home" dental floss that says "Compare to Glide!" or the store-brand vitamins that say "Compare to Centrum!"
Though it's so crazy it just might work...
What about "Kill Us, Traitor!", referring to Adobe stabbing the non-Windows community that backed them up (Postscript, anyone?).
So I would say, don't change the name. Just add an "i": killustraitor .
amazing what a well placed hyphen can do the pronounciation and overtones.
Kartist ??
Depends on the jurisdiction. However, in most jurisdictions, yes, you can. Then, the person getting the money sends back an agreement saying they won't sue. This agreement is legally binding.
my old sig used to be funny, but then slashcode ate it and now it's not funny anymore
oh, wait I don't think that would go over too well: KIll for Linux
Well, I never connected KIllustrator and Adobe Illustrator at all - I thought it was just a descriptive name. What else could you call it? CoolVectorDrawingProgram?
I was thinking the same thing, except that it would really confuse people (what??? is it a light bulb or a drawing program?).
What's X-Windows? There's no such thing. From 'man X':
The X Consortium requests that the following names be used when referring to this software:
X
X Window System
X Version 11
X Window System, Version 11
X11
Check your facts before you post.
It has been said that illustrator is a descriptive word, telling what the product does, and so it's ok. A few courts agree with this too. Anyone remember when Micro$oft went after the maker of HFS Explorer (utility for making mac partition files for use with emulators)? Since HFS Explorer let's you explorer the contents of HFS partition files, they were allowed to keep the name. KIllustrator allows you to make illustrations and so it should be protected in the same manner.
It is understandable that Adobe is annoyed.
Killustrator sounds like "Kill Illustrator."
It amazes me how socially backward companies are, however. Adobe's way of defending the trademark has the opposite result that is intended. Annoying Slashdot people is the best way I can think of to eventually kill Illustrator. Adobe has assured that 1) KDE Illustrator has world-wide publicity among knowledgeable people, and 2) there are thousands of people who will now give the KDE version support.
Maybe it will be 5 years, or maybe it will be 10, but eventually all the features in Adobe Illustrator will be available in KDE Illustrator, and that will be the end of Adobe's product. Whereas, if Adobe maintained a good relationship with the computing community, maybe the open source programmers would work on other projects instead.
Bush's education improvements were
Good idea! KDraw is a better name, anyway.
Bush's education improvements were
Did you notice that the online dictionary definition for "Illustrator" is in error. The definition given is for "Illustrate".
Bush's education improvements were
I'm distressed that I have to agree that use of the 'Killistrator' name is probably indefensable, from a trademark perspective. I wish it were. There doesn't seem to be an approach to this case that would provide protection for it's use in relation to a graphics program.
On the otherhand, if we were to create a first person shooter in that name, let Adobe try and fight that. Perhaps in this came you blast the heads off little pissant corporate lawyers. Sounds fun doesn't it?
--CTH
--
--Got Lists? | Top 95 Star Wars Line
get a grip Adobel ustrator
http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=Il
returns:
Found 3 entries for Illustrator. illustrate ( l -str t , -l s tr t ) v. illustrated, illustrating, illustrates v. tr. 1. 1. To clarify, as by use of examples or comparisons: The editor illustrated the definition with an example sentence. 2. To clarify by serving as an example or comparison: The example sentence illustrated the meaning of the word. 2. To provide (a publication) with explanatory or decorative features: illustrated the book with colorful drawings. 3. Obsolete. To illuminate. v. intr. To present a clarification, example, or explanation. [Latin ill str re, ill str t- : in-, in; see in-2 + l str re, to make bright; see leuk- in Indo-European Roots.]il lustrat able adj. il lustra tor n. Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Illustrator \Il*lus"tra*tor\, n. [L.] One who illustrates. Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
Illustrator n : an artist who makes illustrations (for books or magazines or advertisements etc.) Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University
"The Most Fun Possible on 4 wheels" is at SunBuggy in Las Vegas
So there really aren't any friendly corporations out there, huh?
Turtle
---------------------------------------
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Rotate the pod, please, HAL....
While I don't like their attitude, Adobe does have a long established trademark. It is not worth fighting over a name. I suggest changing the KDE product to KIlluminator. I love medieval illuminated manuscripts. In fact, "illuminator" sounds much classier than "illustrator". Adobe will be jealous.
When the hell is all this crap about patents going to stop!! This is getting to the point where every week I read another company getting pissed at one small linux developer. Grow up guys!
I thought we were a bunch of underground programmers writing code because we enjoyed doing so and because we didn't feel like using the closed source alternatives. Now we're freedom fighters for the right to write and have large 'Decoy' signs painted on our blaze orange jackets as closed source companies who charge money for the stuff they write don't like what we're doing? I used to be a nice guy. Now I *want* to put these god damn companies out of business. Who's stifling who's creativity here?
A steaming cup of soykaf would be real wiz right now.
Yes, but what about this 2500? Sounds like a ridiculous amount of money compared to the weight of the trademark. Ah, they must have heard about the salaries in German universities... that figures
The immediate demand for payment of a specific amount of money is pretty much a giveaway as to the nature of the problem.
You either believe in rational thought or you don't
This will never make it passed the initial hearings phase. "Illustrator" is a common Language word and "Killustrator" was only introduced into the vocabulary after the creation of "Koffice". It's just a scare ploy and has little if any litigatory merit. I see a possible counter-suit in the making, which would mean more press. And, as one poster mentioned, good press or bad press - all press is good press. Cheers, Curtis
I wonder how Slashdot readers would respond if Microsoft decided to release a new, closed-source product called Microsoft Graphical Image Manipulation Program, Microsoft GIMP. The phrase "image manipulation program" is no more unique than the word "illustrator." Adobe's case is slightly questionable, but it's wrong to conclude out of hand that they are on the wrong side of things.
That's the point. Why should companies flip out when an ordinary part of their name (like the word apple, or sun) is used as part of another name. If I called my software company Red Apple, Inc., Apple Computers should not sue me just because I used the word Apple in my companies' name. You missed the point completely.
If you believe the gov't only cares about money, what make you think they'll listen to you if you talk to them.
Democracy is about subordinating your will to the will of others...Anarchy is about being subordinate to no one. Instead of bitching and moaning, anarchists do and we don't participate in a system that we don't believe in.
Damnit, Jim, I'm an anarchist, not a F@#$!^& doctor!
Kill-Us-Trator!
This SIG pulled due to lack of funding. (This damn war is costing too much!)
Then Hunter S. Thompson pulls a lever somewhere and the going just gets wierder. Now you've got all these clever, but totally nondescriptive acronym-as-program-names floating around, so that the package descriptions look something like: [1]
xKFjeeter - An address book utility for KDE
GRAPPLE - the GNU Remote Authenticated Potato Peeler Library for EMACS
PsYChoDELiC - A fast, monochrome mail reader
TUTBCGAIMBTLGU - An instant messaging client (This Used To Be Called GAIM Before Their Lawyers Got Us) for Gnome
FungusFlower - A database backend program using 3000 other libraries with equally nondescriptive names
I think Linux needs a few programs whose names actually tell the user what they do (in this case, ILLUSTRATE things). If nothing else, to at least reduce the learning cliff enough that more Windows-pissed potential converts will attempt the jump...
[1] These names are made-up and intended to illustrate (oops! I mean articulate) a point. Any similarities to actual programs is coincidental. Please don't wipe out both my karma points, I have worked so hard to achieve them! :)
--
Caveat Emptor is not a business model.
Microsoft had gotten this to the level of an art.
Office, Word, Internet Explorer, SQL Server, *Flight Simulator*, etc...
Of course, they also have stuff like Microsoft Transaction Server ( that doesn't do transcations ) and Microsoft Application Server ( that doesn't serve applications ) to prove that they probably just use random words out of a dictonary.
--
Two witches watch two watches.
--
Two witches watched two watches.
Which witch watched which watch?
No, that is silly.
Use the more traditional way:
TAFKAK
The Application Foremrly Known As KIllustrator
--
Two witches watch two watches.
--
Two witches watched two watches.
Which witch watched which watch?
...that it refers to almost anything to do with presentations.
We're a Lotus shop, so our presentation software is Freelance Graphics(TM probably). But I've lost count of the number of times people have "emailed me a powerpoint".
I've even had a request to "set up a powerpoint in the training room". The person actually meant a multimedia projector, in order to display their presentation, which was created with Freelance. Confused the heck out of me, because here in Australia, powerpoint is a common term for a wall mounted power outlet. They don't need any setting up!
My email is really in an international top level domain. The country code ZZ is spambait.
The products do not compete. One is a package that runs under Windows and MacOS, the other under Linux. In a world where few people have more than one computer, that's enough of a distinction to ensure that sales/distributions of one do not affect the others in any serious degree.
Perhaps you could limit your personal abuse to your wife? But to answer the above, one product is always going to come before the other. That does not mean that one is named after the other.If we were talking about Adobe calling their product "Megadraw", and KDE "KMegadraw", or "Lines123" and "KLines123", then you might have a point. But Adobe have chosen a descriptive name for their product, one that is completely generic and was already used for that purpose when Adobe used it. What would you describe a vector drawing program as if you wanted to sum it up in one word? It is nonsense to suggest that the name is not equally applicable to other products simply because Adobe used it first. That's abuse of language.
Sure thing. Let me pull up www.adobe.com. Let's see: Acrobat Distiller is available for HP UX, IBM AIX, and Solaris. I seem to recall there was a VMS version at one point too. Are you now going to tell me that there are more installed HP UX installations, or AIX, or even Solaris, in their respective markets, than Linux installations? And I'm refering to commercial Linux servers here, not geeks with boxes running XMMS.I'm sorry your response to someone daring to disagree with you is to try to ridicule it, but you're going to actually have to think of some arguments beyond "You are wrong" and "Sorry, you[r] point is not taken" because Adobe's use "came first".
This isn't a race. It's about the appropriation of language. Adobe has no right to declare a word in common use its own, and KDE has every right to name a project as descriptively as possible. If Adobe, and yourself, don't like it, they'll just have to learn to deal with it. Perhaps Adobe should change the name of their product to something less generic?
--
KMSMA (WWBD?)
This Free software developer could sure use some hints as to the proper course of action - apart from hiring an expensive lawyer of his own.
sig sig sputnik
I guess Adobe tech support got quite some calls for support for their "Illustrator on KDE Linux" port... Big company or not - I'd be upset too if my software got a bad name due to an unrelated program.
Why did the KDE folks choose such a similar sounding name in the first place?
A good thing too or else they might also have been sued by George Lucas for ripping off the name Obiwan....
Simon
They're angry because... err.. then again, most Adobe products are free, too. Nevermind 8)
help me i've cloned myself and can't remember which one I am
In a few years we shall pay royalty to every company in the world since they will have copyrighted every word!
You cannot enforce a trademark if you have allowed it to fall into use as a regular word (Kleenex for example).
So what makes Adobe think they can enforce a trademark that was a regular word before they trademarked it ?
"Adobe illustrator" would be enforcable "Illustrator" alone would not.
Disclaimer : IANAL - I don't even play one on the Internet.
So why aren't microsoft going after things like x-windows, open windows ... etc.?
Nobody called the program Kadobe!
That's because George Lucas threatened to sue.
Disconnect your television. Do your own research. Draw your own conclusions. They're probably lying. Don't be a sheep.
- Not named after a generic word for the function it helps to perform,
- Not named accurately for what it is intended to do, ie. not misleading in any way, and
- Not intended to divert profits from Adobe to its authors.
In other words, there is no unfair competition involved in the use of the word "illustrator" as part of the name "Killustrator". Neither is there going to be any confusion between Adobe's product and this offering; the issue is bogus, and only raised by Adobe to keep the open-source world from advertising the availability of a line-drawing program in terms understood by the world at large.--
Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
"Illustrator" means "one who illustrates". If someone else makes a program for creating and editting illustrations, why can't they also call it "illustrator"? It describes what it does. IMHO, Adobe should not be assumed to be on firm ground in their demand to take title to the word "illustrator", capitalized or un-. The only thing they should be assumed to have title to is the string Adobe Illustrator.
--
Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
It is non-profit, that's how it is different
here is their contact info, lets let them know that greedy actions like this will cost them our business... that is if we use windows in the first place heh heh ;)
Toll-Free Number
800-833-6687
U.S. and Canadian customers can get recorded information about how to order products, determine the status of an order, or contact a customer service representative.
San Jose Corporate Headquarters
Adobe Systems Incorporated
345 Park Avenue
San Jose, California 95110-2704
USA
Tel: 408-536-6000
Fax: 408-537-6000
MS should have sued Digital Research over DR-DOS, since MS called it MS-DOS
Actually, Caldera sued Microsoft over Microsoft's FUD-mongering against DR-DOS (Typical article)
DOS = Disk Operating System, not a particularly strong mark and I think it was already a generic term by the time "MS-DOS" came out.
no infringement there, either. duh.
What the heck is happening here? I can't believe that Adobe, such a fucking-good software-house, that doesn't need to do this small things (RIAA, MPAA and M$ need these small things) are trying to fight KIllustrator.
Let's see, AutoCAD, how many *CAD is around? What about *Player. Let's do just like Pegeout, let's register all numbers with a middle 0. This sUx, it sounds like a dam-shit-small-software-tiny-company that can't make their software so dam good that it'll become market default!
Well I hope that Adobe give up to sue for such a small thing like this!
Nothing else to say.
-=-=-=-=
I know life isn't fair, but why can't it ever be un-fair in MY favor!?
This is ridiculous, it reminds me of the GAIM, LIBFAIM, etc. crap
Microsoft(R) Windows(R) - each is a separate registered trademark (see all MS trademarks).
This used to be true, but MS actually did the breaktrough litigation on this, trademarking "Windows" as refers to graphical computer interfaces (or something to that effect).
Invisible Agent
Invisible Agent
This post is a mirror; when a monkey stares in, no hacker gazes out.
Unlike patents, trademarks that are not vigorously enforced by the trademark holder lapse. So from a legal standpoint, Adobe's doing the right thing here. Not getting on KIllustrator's case means that they cede MSIllustrator later.
:) My point is that even though Adobe used the name Illustrator first, it doesn't mean that the forclosed on all cool names for vector drawing programs.
And as for other proposing other names, you're kidding, right? One of the most famous OS names out there is named after some Scandanavian or something.
Invisible Agent
Invisible Agent
This post is a mirror; when a monkey stares in, no hacker gazes out.
Not to beat this into the ground. :)
I see where you're coming from, and I think you raise a good point. However, I'm pretty certain that you could release a word processor named "Writer" and trademark the name (assuming you were first), and the law would protect the name for you.
Invisible Agent
Invisible Agent
This post is a mirror; when a monkey stares in, no hacker gazes out.
Shouldn't generic descriptive terms like 'explorer,' 'illustrator' 'word' and 'paint' be free for all to use?
Do you suppose that the KDE guys would have called the program KIllustrator if there weren't a similar product with a well-known name out there? I have to say that I see Adobe's point of view on this. But what's the big deal? Pick a new name, and move on. Projects (especially Open Source projects) live and die by their quality, not by their clever name.
Invisible Agent
Invisible Agent
This post is a mirror; when a monkey stares in, no hacker gazes out.
Red Apple? Oh boy. You'll risk being sued by Red Hat and Apple Computers. Just to be safe, use Green Grapes, Inc.
--
Why can't big software companies with seemingly no interest in Linux leave it alone so we in the trenches can have our own little revolution in peace??!!!! *ahem* Who else thinks _kill_istrator sounds really cool?
"A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire
I often look down at KDE efforts, finding them... erm, unoriginal. Like we've got an army of straight-out-of-incubator kids with one notion of "right" software preset in their minds: Windows is the model GUI/desktop, C++ is the only true programming language (and others can go down the drain), MS Office is surely the only office suite they pay regard to, and so on. Not only that, they want to emphasize this "reproducing the best" feeling in names of their projects. Come on, make something new.
My exception safety is -fno-exceptions.
Call it "the symbol" right away instead.
.............................................
I'm the one without a soul
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The combined human population is enough to feed every living tiger for app. 28000 years.
In the words of P & PWEI... Fuck them.. and their law...
.............................................
I'm the one without a soul
---
The combined human population is enough to feed every living tiger for app. 28000 years.
Dolphins taste like donuts, you know!
.............................................
I'm the one without a soul
---
The combined human population is enough to feed every living tiger for app. 28000 years.
Adobe Distiller has been ported to Linux and Solaris. Its main function is converting postscript to PDF's. Ghostscript does a better, more reliable job, and isnt as buggy.
Then there's no copyright infringement. The author refers to the program by this name in his email on the subject. If Killu isn't acceptable, try "Killustrate". Same exact meaning, no infringement.
I am not certain, but has the Killustrator name been used for more than 6 months? In all that time Adobe has not noticed that Killustrator was named thus?
Pardon me for being blunt, but shouldn't Adobe have approached the author of Killustrator long before just recently?
Well, I do hope that Adobe loses out on this, otherwise Kword and Abiword could be in jeopardy next.
On to a few other questions though isn't Adobe Illustrator always called Adobe Illustrator and not plain Illustrator? If they can muscle Killustrator could actual human illustrators then sue Adobe for diluting their professional titles?
I believe that that would only be fair as acutal human illustrators have used that as their professional title long before Adobe cam on the scene.
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.sig seperator
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If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
What is the current exchange rate of Euros to dollars so I can put it in a prospective I can relate to. If I had the money I would pay it. The project is opensource software and should not be sued for using a common word in their product. If I had a company called something like BS-Word I would get the bejeezes sued out of me because Word is trademarked by MS but is a common English term and could actually represent a non-related product such as a word synthesizer.
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Just because a bunch of people believe or do something stupid, doesn't make it any less stupid.
So we are dealing with a little over $2100. I know people who make that in a day(not that I'm one of them, grumble grumble grumble)
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Just because a bunch of people believe or do something stupid, doesn't make it any less stupid.
And everybody knows that's the key here. Heck, if Adobe had ported *all* their apps, we'd have no reason to yell at them on Slashdot. We would have gone back to bitching about the CueCat. :)
I just got a trademark on the word "DOBE" (aka DOBERMAN PINSCHER) for my new future business. Now guess where I'm off to.
I also trademarked "MART", so once I'm done with Adobe, off to KMART, BI-MART, Mini-MART, WAL-MART, Music-MART, CareerMART, MortgageMART, Global-MART and Drug-MART to make me some money!
AutoCAD, IntelliCAD (Ummmm, CAD is Computer aided drafting)
WordStar, Word Perfect, MS Word, AMI Word Pro (programs that manipulate words)
MS Office, Word Perfect Office, McAfee Office (office suites, as in a collection of office software?)
Adobe Photoshop, Corel Photopaint (editing photos?)
MS FrontPage, Adobe Pagemaker (editing web pages?)
MS Windows 2000, Norton Utilities 2000 (the year?)
get serious... if its freeware (or commercial software), it doesnt give you the right to copy a trademarked name... hmmm maybe Ill make a webpage called xslashdot.com
_______________________
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
Nope, I see no mention of WORD, ACCESS, EXCEL or OFFICE being tracemarked... but windows is, and they could, legally and justifiably, sue X-Window's creators...
_______________________
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
In a sense, yes, they are competing products since they're both Illustration programs. But in another sense, they're not competing as KIllustrator is for the Linux OS and Adobe's Illustrator is not. The term "Illustrator" merely describes what the program does -- it illustrates. Companies shouldn't be allowed to place copyrights on descriptive terms.
Everyone here keeps talking about generic marks, copyright, etc. The issue here is trademark. Adobe has a trademark both for "Adobe Illustrator" and for "Illustrator." One of the tests for registrability of a given mark is whether or not it is "simply descriptive" of the product or services to be offered under the mark (not "generic"). You can trademark all the words it the OED if you like... as long as they're not descriptive of the product you produce... or if you've garnered "secondary meaning" in the mark (i.e., market recognition).
.02.
Someone else has pointed out that Adobe has been producing the product for over a decade. This gives them secondary meaning without a doubt. Whether or not they should have been able to register the mark in the first place is a moot point now -- the mark has been registered and a lot of goodwill has been built up in it. Thus courts will side with Adobe.
You might be able to argue that names like Killustrator are eco-political satire (which, in a way, they are, given the us vs. them mentality that some members of the open source community has), but it is still going to be a loser. Most courts would call this "commercial speech," even though it's open source commerce. As commercial speech it would warrant less protection than "pure" speech.
However, situations like this can teach us a lesson. IP in American, and the rest of the world, is changing drastically. Adobe was able to get its mark registered in 1988 because it didn't occur to the examining attorney that "illustrator" would be descriptive of "computer programs" (the "goods" for which the mark was registered -- check out the TM search at www.uspto.gov). If you want IP law to keep up with the changes in IP, then we all need to work to inform law-makers and jurists of exactly what is going on. Some judges and legislators are working hard to understand how these new technologies are working (e.g., the Supreme Court in the CDA case, Judge O'Scanlain in the Rio case), but many of them are being faced with these issues for the first time when they're in their middle years (or later). Many of us have grown up with this stuff -- but many of the people in charge didn't. This just means they have to work a little harder to learn (kind of like picking up a second language -- it's whole lot harder than you native tongue).
If we can begin to help educate people, we can avoid things like the registration of "Illustrator." Another example is AIM vs. GAIM. I think that AIM is descriptive -- IM certainly is. There may be a problem with GAIM because it effectively incorporates AOL (where AIM stands for AOL instant messenger).
Regardless, this is yet another example of the problems with IP law right now. Copyright, etc. have always been behind the actual technology -- when you try to anticipate it, you often screw it up (see, e.g., the DMCA). Instead of just bitching, try to teach somebody about it -- thus smoothing the transition. Write a letter to the editor, or a letter to your congressman. Express you concerns and offer to help. Despite whatever cynicism you might have, many of them do care -- they could make a lot more money doing other things (like being sleazy lawyers... or not so sleazy lawyers).
My
D'oh -- the stuff that buys me beer! Ray -- the guy who sells me beer!
You had your chance to file oposition to Adobe's filing back in September 19, 1995 when it was made public bt the USPTO. If you don't keep up with PTO actions you have no right to bitch. 1)It was made public by the gov't. 2)You had a chance to protest. 3)You didn't 4)Tuff! QED
Those products are for windows, not competing AGAINST the Windows OS. Had those programs been OSs designed to rival Windows, than your point might be relevant. The same thing applies to the Killustator thing. KDE is deliberatly evoking Illustrator's popularity through its name to try to sell their own product that competes against Adobe's product. Its not right, and certainly not mature.
A figure divine
Her radiance shadows sun
The wind is her song
A figure divine
Her radiance shadows sun
The wind is her song
Right, and me starting a computer firm named "Apple Computors" would infringe on that trademark by causing confusion.
:)
I never thought about the connection, but the two programs are basically competing, so I think KIllustrator should change its name to something that doesn't sound like it's related. KNotAdobeButStillAnIllustrator or something
They should change its name to Kill Us Traitors. JK
I agree that if some other company comes out with a product called Illustrator, that fills the same void, blah blah blah, however, I fail to see the connection here... Its called KIllustrator, not Illustrator.. Sure its close, but so what? Its not the same. If this is too close, than maybe K-Mart should sue Bi-Mart should sue Wal-Mart should sue Sport-Mart, etc etc. ;)
IBM should sue IB.
USC (University of Southern California) should sue USC (University of South Carolina) should sue USC (University of Southern Colorado)...
OSU (Ohio State Univ) should sue OSU (Oregon State Univ)
MS should have sued Digital Research over DR-DOS, since MS called it MS-DOS...
I wonder how many companies MS can sue over the word "money", since that term used in any financial way, is obviously dilution of their trademark
Expect Fox to be sending you some letters. Krusty the clown has patents on sprinkling K's everywhere ;)
Micrografx has a division that sells a a vector drawing app called Illustrator2. I believe in the past it was just Illustrator. More info is available here. This division was once called InterCAP and was previously a part of InterGraph, and I believe they've been selling this product for many years. I doubt its older than Adobe's, but why is it ok for them to do it but not killustrator?
I don't think this has been said yet, but I'm pretty sure you have to enforce your trademarks in order for them to hold up over time. If Adobe let this one go, then pretty soon MS Illustrator could be released...and so on...If part of your business is name recognition, then it's important to keep that name for yourself..
"Karma can only be portioned out by the cosmos." -Homer Simpson
"Companies are NOT going to adopt Linux and other "community" projects if its proponents INSIST on acting like 15 year olds." Be a little careful... some of us could be 15 year olds out here who find that offensive.
I think that they really can't enforce the law here, even if kIllustrator is confusingly similar to Adobe's product. I mean, who would they sue? Nobody owns the software. Who would pay the fee?
/dev/microsoft /dev/null
mv
So I'm not gonna get sued if my company is Apple Microsystems or Sun Computers?
m00.
Dictionary.com search on miata...
No entry found for miata in the dictionary.
And now lets try illustrator
illustrate (l-strt, -lstrt) v. illustrated, illustrating, illustrates v. tr. To clarify, as by use of examples or comparisons: The editor illustrated the definition with an example sentence. To clarify by serving as an example or comparison: The example sentence illustrated the meaning of the word. To provide (a publication) with explanatory or decorative features: illustrated the book with colorful drawings. Obsolete. To illuminate. v. intr. To present a clarification, example, or explanation.
Why, what do you know! it's already in the English language.
This gives me a great idea. I'm going to create some software and call it It. I should be able to sue LOTS of people then! Perhaps a whole suite including The for Windows, If database querying, and And collaboration software!
m00.
Isn't the term "Illustrator" used to describe certain jobs? such as comic book companies would hire a said "Illustrator" do "Illustrate" their books - the same would be true for childrens books. If i remember corectly the term "Illustrated by" is used to describe the artist, so isnt he an "Illustrator" , and therefore in violation of the trademark held by Adobe? If this rediculous proposition between Adobe and Killustrator actualy does transoire, are they next?
I'm not a KOffice developer, but I highly doubt they used the name KIllustrator to gain marketshare from that name alone. Apart from that "Illustrator" is not Adobe's product name. Their product is called "Adobe Illustrator". That one in turn is nothing more than a common word prefixed with a company's name...
In 1997 adobe dropped trademark: "Adobe Type Set" :
ADOBE TYPE SET
Goods and Services (CANCELLED) IC 009. US 038. G & S: computer programs for creating fonts. FIRST USE: 19900221. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19900221
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD
Cancellation Date October 13, 1997
I would suggest KIllustrator register it in its name and use as a part of KIllustrator Package
About registered trademarks containing word "Illustrator" and who owns them read my previous posting in this thread
I think that it is pathetic that you would want to defend this purile attempt to capitalize on a brand that a company has spent millions on building. There is no reason people should not an Illustrator knock-off, but they should at least have the decency to try and let the product make a name for itself rather than stealing someone elses brand. (And no, I don't work for Adobe)
As you see from subject, KIllustrator is vector-based drawing program. Similar programs are Corel Draw, Adobe Illustrator (sugh...), Macromedi Freehand. Plus, I believe, there is a lot of shareware programs around. PaintShoptPro is pixmap-based program. You may want to check KPaint and Krayon.
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Names for new products are always a problem. I think KDraw is too generic - it says nothing about the program [ex-Killustrator]. I was the man who invoked "ranaming Konqueror" thread on kde-devel in August 2000. Well, I think now that "Konqueror" name is quite good, comparing to others (while it's still to difficult to be pronounced by Russian people). My general advise for "product naming" remains the same as year ago: two, max. 3 syllables, and name should start from sound consonant, like "D" or "L". So, for example, I find "galeon" name is great (while not very unique), as well as "vectra" or "laserjet" (HP). From other side, there are many *wrong* names (like Presario, Proliant; and Illustrator 4 syllables!) which still sell good or positioned more-less correctly. Product is always the first, it's rather difficult to sell huge volume of bad things. While Microsoft has some success, for sure :-)
Anyway, Marketing Mix consists of 4 P's (product, place, price, promotion). Open Source development model is great, and I don't see how traditional companies can overcome this.
Our *place* is better, isn't it?!
And we will not exchange it for something else, for sure.
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"Kstrator" sounds like "kastrator". :-)
Funny and rather agressive.
Sorry, couldn't resist to post
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I tried to find the e-mail for CEO Bruce Chizen but could not. However, if you want to protest this injustice you can e-mail the public relations people at: relations@adobe.com I sent an e-mail to them tonight. I urge everyone to send a protest to Adobe.
Hi My name ia Marc and I was born in July 1972. So I figure every Marc that was named Marc after July 1972 should change their name or pay me royalties every time they get a check or a birthday card since it was actually my name first. Oh...$H|t....... I forgot, the Alphabet Open Source!! Thanks,