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Ximian Gnome 1.4 released
A zillion people took time out of their busy day to submit that Ximian 1.4 is out. Now it includes nautilus (which I continue to be lukewarm on. It likes to barf on huge directories, and I prefer efm's integrated command line) as well as Mozilla (which is good to see included with the distribution although again, I think I prefer konqueror). But the Ximian desktop is super solid and great for beginners, and includes lots of useful stuff. I'll be apt-get'ing the latest revision asap.
See "man nanosleep". Specifically:
Also, see:
Cheapbytes also has a Helix Gnome disc listed.
I don't think so. Alphas had HZ=1024 back when a 100 MHz 486 was still okay, if not great.
But x86-land is only recently catching up on the original Alpha's power requirements. 10-12A at 3.3V was quite a lot for the time, and it's no wonder the conference my co-workers first saw it at was called the "Hot Chips" conference.
Ok, here's a little clarification.
Firstly, the 2.2 series kernel had it's scheduler set at 100HZ so that your processes would get switched 100 times a second.
In the good old days of 386 this would have been more than enough, with the overhead of context switching outweighing any benefit from the increased interactivity.
A modern PII/PII/Athlon has much better internal circuitry for handling context switches, so if you have one of these, then yes, changing the HZ value to 1000 can increase the perceived speed of the system. I reguarly did this myself on a PII 450 with no problems, only increased speed.
Just to round this all off. The 2.4.x kernel has the i386 schedular set at 1000 for the HZ value anyway...
Iggy
You are completely mistaken about the Nature of Emacs. It is most definitely an application framework. What with FSF Emacs21 coming out soon (well... relatively soon, anyway; it's a 17-year old project, so the time-scale is a bit different), we will have a GUI web browser; a mail reader, a news reader, an ICQ clone, an AIM clone, a bash replacement, and a bunch of editors all withing one uniform environment.
With a uniform scripting mechanism, on top.
All this KDE/Gnome/Windows nonsense is a far cry from the One True Editor.
(Now if only emacs would subsume ssh, X, and the linux kernel, then we'd really be rockin')
--
Iolo is the bard. Dupre was a paladin.
great idea, except for one thing. in my experience, both KDE and gnome have a tendency to screw up a configuration that has already been set. call me elitist, but as nice as it would be to have a newbie friendly way to configure X built into gnome, i don't want it if it's going to mess with my already finely tuned X configuration.
a couple of examples:
on my laptop for work, i had X 4.0 configured to accept mouse events both from the little eraser head on the keyboard and from my external mouse. when i used kde 2.0, it decided that it didn't want to acknowledge that i had two mice. it didn't actually change my configuration, because when i started gnome, it worked fine, but whenever i used kde, only one mouse would work.
every once in a while gnome will screw up the keyboard settings, and it wont repeat anymore. the only way to get it to work right again is to completely restart X.
my point is, if kde and gnome are ever going to evolve so that they can configure your entire system, somebody better figure out how to get them to not interfere with a pre-existing configuration, or they will piss off a lot of their more advanced users.
If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
Y'know, you can run any desktop you want on pretty much any major distribution. So you can have the same interface wherever you go.
If you're using Red Hat 7.1, the param.h file is located here:
/usr/include/asm/param.h
Co-founder and designer at Music Nearby: http://musicnearby.com
> I doubt anyone will want to go into flame-wars over windowmanagers now, do they?
Not when the story is over a wm independent desktop.
Surely you realize this, but Blackbox is a window manager, while Gnome is a desktop. Upshot: you can run Gnome alongside Blackbox. Actually, although KDE comes with KWM, I don't think there is a specific "Gnome" window manager. Most installs seem to default to using sawfish with Gnome these days, but I'm pretty sure Sawfish is an independent project.
If I recall, Blackbox even has support for KDE hints...not sure about Gnome hints.
--Lenny
If I upgrade to woody, or last week if I used stock Potato and install Ximian, Netscape 4.x doesn't work anymore... I get a bus error. Some other things also don't work. I suspect it's because of the libc upgrade. Has this been fixed? Anyone here actually install Ximian on Potato and then use non-gnome apps?
I don't think it's a 'time-to-market' release, but I would definitely wait until 1.4.1 or somesuch, if you're going to be putting clients on it. As you say, KDE 2.1 wasn't even ready (to say nothing of 2.0). I don't think even KDE 2.1.1 is quite ready yet, but it gets to a point where you have to get something out the door, and besides, you won't get proper widespread testing and bug reports until everyone starts using it.
:) and their buggy software. I think that it's just the way things go. You really don't find all the niggling little bugs until the whole world is using your code. (Don't get your panties in a knot, folks, I'm not defending MS. Free Software is still worlds more stable and reliable that MS products, but it's interesting to note that KDE, Gnome and even the Linux kernel tend to have issues when first released, and it's usually the x.x.1 or x.x.2 release before it's really ready for VAR's to put their clients on it.)
As a side note, I have found myself somewhat less critical of Microsoft (don't worry, I still hate them
Meine kleine zwei pfennige......
Okay, I finally got in the site. here's the link:
http://www.ximian.com/tech/helix-setup-tools.php3
-jay
full install is 152 Megs! I dunno of Cheapbytes will have it or not, I don't remember seing previous versions, but I didn't look to hard. If they had it before, they'll probably have the new version eventually too.
-jay
You can only access the RPM db with one program at a time. IT sounds like you've already got it open with something like gnorpm or something.
To get RPMS, you might try FTPing to red-carpet.ximian.com but anything is going to be slow going for the next couple of days probably.
-jay
-jay
Ximian is working on this I believe. Checkout their site (when it's not slashdotted) and look for their setup tools. I downloaded them a little while back and they seemed to work okay, they hosed my network connection the first time, but I got it back right away. Anyway, they look really nice, though they still have some bugs....
-jay
If you look at sax2, the SuSE advanced X configurator, you will see that it is QT2 based and under the GPL.
/ ] which currently lets you set gamma and screen resolution in Xfree-4.x. There were more ambitious plans for the latter tool, but development seems to have slowed...
Integration into KDE2 is good (in kccontrol) with the kdebase-yast2 package (GPL).
It is mainly for setting up X not so much for configuring it, but it works okay.
Other related KDE2 projects are kfontinst (font management), which is currently being integrated into KDE2 (for 2.2) and kvidmode
[http://www.fht-esslingen.de/~romait00/kvidmode
--
Moritz
What did you expect? Ximian is a commercially run company that is burning up it's venture capital fast, that has not delivered anything of value but vague hopes so far (one day Nautilus will be great, Evolution will be a killer, Gnome2.0 will be great, Bonobo will better than Com and kparts combined, Openoffice will be cool, Mozilla might be cool) and that wasted it's money on slanderous advertising on google with regard to KDE.
:-)
Given that the main reason for Gnome at the beginning was to create a completely free desktop and that the GPLing of QT removed that reason, what reason is there left to use Gnome?
Basically commercial interests of the founders of Ximian and Eazel. Plus the fact that some open source hating Unix companies decided they could better control the LGPLed Gnome libraries than the GPLed QT libraries. Also Gnome is a great way to mobilize X programmers to do dektop apps.
It's best days are over. The greatest thing Gnome ever did was force Trolltech to GPL QT. Thank you for that.
-- Feed me, I am a troll
--
Moritz
I thought Ximian had stopped helix-update service after releasing Red Carpet to replace it.
My guess is that with your change things appear faster, but in the end you've actually hurt your overall throughput (the amount of computational work you actually get done in a given time).
You have hurt your throughput (HZ = 100 is a server-side optimization, really), but by how much? The default HZ used to be 1000 (or maybe 1024?) even on Intel processors; I forget exactly when they made the change, but I think it was during 2.1.xx. And that was during Pentium 100 days. I don't think you'll notice the extra scheduling cycles on a gigahertz Athlon.
http://oss.software.ibm.com/developerworks/opensou rce/pthreads/
The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.
The wheel is turning, but the hamster is dead.
The best way to do it, then, would be to have a little slider bar in the KDE or GNOME control panel. Slide it one way to make services run faster, slide it the other way to make the desktop run faster.
--
Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
This is the fastest way to install X/G:
lynx -source http://go-gnome.com/ | sh
It's been in really bad shape all day... lwn.net had announcements up this morning. /. is only adding to their pain, I think.
~luge
IAAL,BIANLY
Monkeytalk is basically live IRC support. So, when you go to a Help menu in XG, one of your options is to go to "Help Chat", which lets you chat with other users, and hopefully get your answers there.
~luge
IAAL,BIANLY
Bah. XMMS sucks ass. Now, xmms from cvs isn't so bad- it handles long playlists ( >3K songs ) without crashing, doesn't die on older oggs, etc. But since they haven't done a release since November if you get the "standard" xmms you are getting some pretty inferior stuff.
~luge
IAAL,BIANLY
Blatant preference for RH? May I ask where you see this blatant preference? 'Cause I don't really see it, and I'm a Debian user, so I'm pretty sensitive to it...
~luge
IAAL,BIANLY
You still haven't answered the question...
~luge
IAAL,BIANLY
Every time I try running a KDE app (kwintv, konqueror, etc), I'm presented with a dialog. It's no ordinary dialog. It always stays on top. It can't be told to shut up. It can't be moved from the centre of the screen. Yes, I'm talking about the "No response to the SaveYourself command" dialog from gsm. This dialog is the "useless Windows error dialog" of GNOME. I hate it, mostly because I can't fix the problem, but somewhat because I don't understand it.
Other than that frustration, and apps like gnometv not working right, GNOME is pretty usable. I don't use KDE proper because it just feels weird to me. I never really cared much for it.
--
--
Me spell chucker work grate. Need grandma chicken.
For RHS-based systems, you should edit /etc/inittab to make the default runlevel be 3. Runlevel 5 will start prefdm (which pans out to either kdm, gdm, or xdm).
--
--
Me spell chucker work grate. Need grandma chicken.
E 0.17 isnt competing w/ gnome or kde. from what i've gathered, .17 is a pretty version (software render, Open GL renderer), more user friendly (a themes builder etc), and then it has EFM, a smallish FM. fully custimizable like anything raster does, w/ mimetype support etc.
.17 as a desktop shell as opposed to just a wm or something as complex as an actual environment like gnome.
raster and mandrake have coined
i suck at explaining, check out enlightenment.org, its just gone through a redesign and has some good info.
The new apt source is:
http://red-carpet.ximian.com/debian potato main
--
Ian Peters
press release mirror
I'm running ximian 1.4, it's great except i ahd to diable nautilus because it was incredibly slow and constantly using 100% of my CPU power. I'm running a 1Ghz Thunderbird with 512MB ram, so i rather doubt its my hardware... Prolly some stupis library incompatibility or something, but I usually use commandline for file management anyway so its not really a problem.
Want to find out more about what the Enlightenment guys are up to? Go to the website, hang out on the IRC channels, CVS the latest code and play with it, join the mailing list.
Not that I do any of these things but it seems like common sense ;-)
Ah, but could you repost that in Spanish?
;)
Hi, Aaron.
-Waldo
This is a joke, isn't it?
Please?
-Waldo
That's the worst way to stop gdm from starting I've ever seen recommended. Here comes the right way: /etc/inittab, like this: /etc/rc2.d/S??gdm (where ?? is some number)h -Prompt-HOWTO-6.html or at the LDP . In general, if a stable debian system does things to your config files you are doing something wrong. Debian is very nice in this regard (and in others), compared to other dists. Also look in /usr/share/doc/sysvinit/ (location on debian).
(You're root)
The default runlevel is given in
"id:2:initdefault:" The number is the runlevel your machine boots into.
Now do
rm
(If the default runlevel is 3, use rc3.d) This prevents gdm from running when entering runlevel 2 or 3, respectively.
On debian try "man update-rc.d". On RedHat there is some tool whose name I don't know. With KDE try ksysvinit (I think that's the name) for a GUI tool. Read section 6 of the From-PowerUp-To-Bash-Prompt-HOWTO, probably at file:///usr/doc/HOWTO/en-html/From-PowerUp-To-Bas
"When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
I didn't mean to be rude. My points:
1) You yourself said you have to move the script everytime you do an apt-get upgrade. That's just crazy, I'm sorry. If you're like me you'd have to do that every day
2) I believe it's better for a newbie to at least once read the relevant howto and then know how the thing works and where to look next time. Far better than executing a random command which will cause his system to complain at every update, because he forgot the 'move back' part
3) I fail to see how my 'rm /etc/rc2.d/S??gdm' is harder than your "'mv /etc/init.d/gdm ~', 'mv ~/gdm /etc/init.d whenever you do any apt-get upgrades'"
4) ksysvinit + reading of one section of howto is not hard at all
5) Give a man a fish and ... teach him how to fish and ...
6) BTW, '/etc/init.d/gdm start' (or stop or restart) is a much better way of starting/stopping daemons by hand than using just the command since it's a generic way to do it. Some daemons may need some magic before or after starting
"When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
Um, the operating system is between the programs you want run and the hardware, it's the user interface that's between the programs and the user.
-David T. C.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
If you have a zip drive, drive to the nearest college with a zip disk.
If they have CD-Rs, go there with a blank CD.
If you have a RJ-45 NIC, unhook your box, drive to the nearest college, set it next to a working computer, and switch all the cables over. They usually have no problem with this for an hour or so, especially on the weekends.
Seriously, what kind of silly question is this? Have you honestly not figured out a way to get large amounts of data from the internet to your computer?
-David T. C.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
I was thinking the same flamebait myself...
I mean, c'mon.
W
-------------------
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This is my SIG. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
when they intentionally did the exact opposite of apple's well-researched implementations in order to avoid getting sued by Jobs & co.
Read what you wrote again, and then answer your own questions as to why they don't do things "the Apple way".
Your argument here isn't with GNOME, or Microsoft either; your argument is with the Cupertino Mafia.
-
Linuxconf sucks so much ass that it should be shitcanned. Hopefully, it's not being shipped with modern distributions, because it just plain does not work, and furthermore, anyone who tries to use it gets no support-sympathy. (In the real world, that's called "unsupported".)
/etc, but a system that requires you to be a sysadmin is not very usable for the non-sysadmins.
/etc are not necessarily the most friendly towards configuration tools, not to mention the fact that non of them are standardized. Thus, there's the real possibility that any future attempt will end up as buggy and failed as linuxconf. Getting sysadmin acceptance for overhauling the config file formats (or, worse, moving to something like Apple NetInfo) is never going to happen either. So the problem is "stuck" and probably will be until someone forks a distribution. (Note that I'm trying to avoid anything mentioning a markup language that starts with X. Whoops...)
I agree with the sentiment that Linux/Unix needs luser-friendly user configuration tools. Yes, real sysadmins use
The problem, of course, is that formats found in
--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
If you're using xdm or gdm or kdm, look in their config file and find the line that launches the display manager and add the renice stuff.
If you're using startx, add the renice stuff to the startx command.
Another method of making X seem more responsive that doesn't involve playing with the scheduler (which is not something that Ximian or anyone else should be suggesting) is to run X with a -10 nice value. Renicing X to -10, however, should only be done on a desktop system, on a server it will starve the background stuff from CPU time.
That's what I do on my desktop machine and it really does make X feel more responsive.
If one knew the Latin language, he would know your news not to be deep.
Farewell,
Ambrosius.
Always thinking, always fascinated.
Switch the . and the @ to email me.
My guess is that with your change things appear faster, but in the end you've actually hurt your overall throughput (the amount of computational work you actually get done in a given time).
You almost got that one right. IIRC, increasing the time slice increases throughput, the price you pay is increased latency.
You also have failed to realize that perception is reality. If it seems faster, then it IS faster.
Anyone know if it really requires an Ultra Sparc?
'Seems like an odd thing to do. There's not much need for 64 bit addressing in something like this. The last time I tried to build Gnome on my tri-processor SS10 it was quite slow and painful.
So, are you paid by the buzzword, or are you just doing it for fun like the rest of us?
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
That's seems like a little oversight on somebodies part. They have Akamai do a great job of providing a distributed cache of the files. Then, put the mirrors.xml file on a local server that goes down when the load gets too high. Argh. What's the point of mirrors if I can't find out where they are?
I'm quite aware of how akamai works, you are right that "primary" content is not normally hosted on their servers. However, the helix-update program goes to whatever URL is built into it. It could just as easily be http://a1234.akamai.net/helix/mirrors.xml instead of http://spidermonkey.helixcode.com/mirrors.xml They just have to stuff a copy into the same directory as the rest of the files they copy to akamai.
Remember, we are not talking about web pages here. The fact that HTTP is being used is irrelevant. There is no real "first page" in the normal sense.
The Ximian Setup Tools are being designed to work with multiple Unix variants and Linux distributions.
----
Celebrate the finer things in life
Could it be /.'ed one minute after the announcement?
/.!
Behold... the power of
Jethro
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
Which distros are slated to have this included with them?
Jethro
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
I have the files -- someone want to give me a good server to upload them to? I have all the installers except Suse...
Jethro
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
The recommended install procudure (lynx -source http://go-gnome.com|sh) does not work, presumably due to server load.
:P
I found I was able to get the install working by downloading the red-carpet RPM from ftp.ximian.com, and using that to install the rest of the packages. YMMV.
Or, wait, I guess I should be saying:
Everyone who is not me is unduly taxing the servers! You should wait until I'm done downloading before you try to install! Show some consideration!
I agree, Linuxconf is pretty worthless, it's too crufty and finicky to be really useful. My vote goes with Webmin. I've found that it is generally respectful of existing config files and existing comments and that the modules that come with it implement the full range of config options available. Access to the various config modules can be subdelegated and all access can be logged, very useful in corporate environments. It is implemented entirely in Perl and can be easily updated over the Internet. It does not require much for package management as it only installs stuff into /etc/webmin.d and wherever you uncompress the tarball (/usr/libexec/webmin). It can also be secured via SSL (it's web based) so that your passwords are not sent in the clear (if you allow access by machines other than localhost).
Just my $0.02
-- Remember: Wherever you go, there you are!
Good point.
Solution: Describe an interface, and make it a plug-in. That way any system's configuration utilities could be plugged into the slot. Of course, the devil is in the details, but the basic concept is good, and, I feel, important.
Caution: Now approaching the (technological) singularity.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
I'm still recommending KDE to my clients when they need a Linux solution.
What? You're saying KDE is a "Linux solution"? Aside from the fact that the word "solution" is powerfully overused and underuseful, that makes no sense. KDE is a GUI, and has almost nothign to do with the OS (not intrinsically, anyway). My boss runs KDE on his Ultra 10 (that's a Sun running Solaris, Jack). I'd love for you to come into his office and remark on what a lovely "Linux solution" he has set up...
KDE has a much better synergy with regards to any value assessment I've done.
OK, more buzzwords. How can one thing have -- in and of itself -- synergy? Synergy implies a set of at least two. How can one thing have much better anything than itself? You need a comparitive statement in there.
And what value assessment are you talking about? GNOME, KDE, Blackbox, etc are free. ROI is a non-issue. Are you talking about TCO? If so: bullshit. Every time a new version of Word or Excel (or Windows) comes out, every secretary in the world is flummoxed for five days. So it's not a cross-OS issue. Is it that KDE is easier to learn than GNOME? I'd argue that one.
While Gnome is stable like a rock and probably more "fun" than KDE, my gut tell me the latest paradigm shift is leading to customer centric initiatives and away from affinity marketing, which is more than likely a good thing.
You're nearing 100% ISO-certified buzzword compliance, Jack. But what are you saying? I can't even guess what the hell the above statement means. Have you used this double-speak to sell things to people? Did they actually buy it? Did they understand what they were buying after you told them about it?
I'm actually waiting for someone to step up to the open source plate, as it were, and show me a real forward thinking Desktop.
There's plenty of 3D desktops out there, Jack. Can't get much more forward than that. Probably not very useful, though. And GNOME/KDE/whatever are so customizable that the desktop can almost be as forweard-thinking as the user needs or wants. Where -- specifically -- are current desktops lacking? We need details.
I don't want change just for the sake of change, nor do my clients, I want a new direction, something that leads us out of the copy windows rutm not that that's totally bad, it's just tired.
But how does change for change's sake affect your TCO/ROI/value assessment? You're contradicting yourself here. Which do you want, Jack: something cheap and ubiquitous, or something which is forward-thinking and expensive enough not to qualify as a copy of Windows? Pick one, because you can't have both.
People will need somthing which looks beyond our limited thinking to deal with the problems that lie ahead.
What problems? I get on just fine with what I have. What we most emphatically do not need is more of the kind of wooly thinking which leads to paperclips telling me how to write a letter. Do you want a port of MS Bob for Linux, Jack?
Jack, for your clients' sake (and the sake of fellow /. readers): Cancel your subscriptions to InfoWorld and all ZD publications, do not go to COMDEX, and in the future try to say what you mean. Use words which serve your ideas, not just because they sound pretty, hip, or forward-thinking. You'll find very few venture capitalists in here, Jack. But you will find plenty of people willing to discuss nearly any topic. Even marketing double talk... :-)
-B
Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.
You can/should purchase the s/w from Ximian and help to dispell the myth that Linux folks are cheap. the cd is 30-40, less than game.
Woe be on to them, all who rise against poor people, shall perish in a the end. Buju Banton
One more problem with HZ==1000 is that the jiffies would roll over in 49 days on 32 bit machines. I am not sure how someone writing a kernel level stuff would be able to successfully deal with a rollover of the jiffies.
I'm running Gnome/Enlightenment on mdk-7.1 and I've _never_ had an X or Gnome/E crash. I think these kinds of stability measurements are really tricky because so much depends on your specific hardware setup and distribution.
I just wish that GNOME and KDE would include XFree86 configuration utilities (like DrakConf for Mandrake does, only a bit cleaner). In addition, they should make a bigger deal of the latest version of linuxconf, which seems to be the most comprehensive hardware and service control. I still use netcfg by RedHat sometimes to set up Gateway and DNS info.
Why? KDE and GNOME (as well as XFree86) are multi-platform packages. They are not for Linux only. Including stuff for linuxconf would only annoy users of SuSE, Debian, Slack, etc. And what of the Solaris, *BSD, AIX and IRIX users? Should FreeBSD's sysinstall also be included? Warning! Code bloat!
Linux-specific stuff should be isolated in a kde-linux or gnome-linux package. Put the FreeBSD stuff in a -freebsd package, the Solaris stuff in a -solaris package, etc. Sound like a lot of work? Of course it is! That's why you let the KDE and GNOME people work on KDE and GNOME, and let Redhat worry about Redhat specific stuff, the decision to include DrakConf to Mandrake, and sysinstall integration to FreeBSD.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
While I am a vocal Windows-basher, and consider the Blackbox desktop to be awesome, there is something that many "unix-centric" folks forget. Unix has been on big hardware for years, and will remain the server OS of choice (hopefully) for a long time. This is because, when you are working on systems that require stability, you are willing to hack into config files to make sure that once running it will stay running. The same mindset does not hold true for the majority of business and home users. They don't need rock-solid stability (although it would be welcome). If their system flakes out on them, they don't lose much, in comparison to a Yahoo or an Amazon. But, they do expect their systems to be easily accessible for the things they DO want to do. This means that most users (or lusers if you prefer) want and expect there to be a simple interface to do normal user things, like change screen resolution and passwords etc. So, the fact that there isn't a really solid Linux control panel makes Linux a lesser choice for these people. Personally, I use Linux as my primary OS and have for about 2 years now. I can find my way around a text file with aplomb. My girlfriend, although a proto-geek herself, just wants the machine to run and let her write her papers and surf the net. THAT is the segment of the computer-using public that needs to be reached in order for Linux to be anything more than a server/geek OS. And, since Linux is free in every sense, as well as nearly bomb-proof in stability, I sure hope that day is soon.
Illegitimi non carborundum
> But it really would be good to see them join together
I figure that in 1 to 3 years we'll have a Third Choice free desktop competitor starting up, with the explicit goal of learning from KDE's/GNOME's mistakes.
--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
For semi-adventurous Red Hatters, I notice that there are lots of new GNOME RPMs at ftp://rawhide.redhat.com/, though you're on your own at getting everything installed correctly on your system.
One hint would be to look at the GNOME site to see what components/versions of various things you need to fetch.
Use at your own risk.
--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
In case you weren't paying attention, he said he preferred efm, over nautilus, which is definitely not KDE. Most likely he is like mself, where he like a few bis and pieces from KDE and GNOME, but doesn't want to have the whole crapload of garbage that come with these "desktops"
Both KDE and Gnome are intended to be able to run on a whole range of platforms, not just Linux with XFree (I heard Gnome has even been ported to win32!). It would be very hard to make a crossplatform configuration tool for platform specifics. I agree though, that on linux this addition would be very welcome.
/etc since open source configuration tools are available for most things. The only problem with these tools is that the GUIs are inconsistent with each other and generally very primitive or even text based.
/etc files so if I can avoid it, I use linuxconfig and similar tools.
There's no need for new users to worry about such confusing things as xf86config and the contents of
Not that these tools are for newbies only. I have long gotten bored with fiddling with
Jilles
It would have taken you less time to click the link than post a comment.
--Ben
From the go-gnome installer:
http://a1220.g.akamai.net/7/1220/1405/2001042323 27 52/red-carpet.ximian.com/installers/installer-redh at-62-i386.gz (1664K)
Do you even know anything about perl? -- AC Replying to Tom Christiansen post.
Did you try just replacing the Red Hat rep-gtk and librep packages with the Ximian ones? No need to reinstall everything. I did that and suddenly Sawfish worked perfectly again on Red Hat 7.1 with Ximian.
Of course, now I run Ximian GNOME 1.4 on Red Hat 7.1 :-)
GNU/Linux. The Freshmaker.
I really don't think there is anything nasty going on. I'm installing Ximian 1.4 on RH6.2 with KDE 2.1.1 and it hasn't asked me to remove any KDE packages.
I suspect the package removals in your case followed a Red-Carpet style verification of your rpm database. Maybe one of the packages kde depends on had to be replaced or had installed badly and the rest followed it because of the dependency removal.
+++++
+++++
The harder you look the less you see. That's what we're up against.
Commander EVIL Taco is more like it *grin*
---
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ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only
is your sig from an old bbs system? :)
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-
ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only
No, but it does have Xmms, great clone... as full featured as the original and even more stable.
Is two desktops really too much choice? Gnome and KDE are very different when you get down to the development level. And I'm not just talking about the C vs. C++ difference. There are basic design philosophies at work. For example, Gnome decided that the best way to support an object model is to take CORBA, make it as fast as possible, then wrap it up in regular C bindings. KDE, on the other hand, decided to skip CORBA in favor of a more lightweight, if less standard, protocol. I can see good reasons for doing either, but as far as integration goes, there is little hope.
Personally I like having a lot of choices. Some people argue that the Linux community spends too much time reinventing the wheel with all the different window managers and desktop environments. So? Evolutionary designs involve taking *large* samples, then breeding out the inferior designs. Since any given application must follow some guiding paradigm, such as ease-of-use vs. power/features, you will always end up with one application that makes precisely nobody happy. Better to have both emacs and vi than just one.
That was a huge ramble, but then I haven't eaten lunch yet.
Opinions change daily as new information arrives. Stay tuned.
Does anyone know when we're going to start seeing standard anti-aliasing in the desktop? I keep reading stories talking about early dev. releases and then I scour every KDE and Gnome update to see if they've been included, but I've yet to see them widely distributed.
That's really what I'm waiting for before I make a real try on that Linux desktop as my everyday solution.
-- Help Digitise the Public Domain at DP.
If you are lazy, you'll be a great programmer. At least you won't reinvent the wheel all the time.
;)
"Who wishes to be creative, must first destroy and smash accepted values." - Nietzsche
Create a deadlock? Only if there's a bug in the kernel. The potential for deadlocks shouldn't be timing related - it's a design issue.
Are you saying that HZ=1024 (as well as HZ=100) is explicitly supported, but that other values such as HZ=4096 (or 1000) are not??
Graphical update fails to find the mirror list, so those of useing Ximian already are temporarily SOL (unless we want to download it all over again).
Did anything not change? Is there any reason to not just get it all again?
The last version of Nautilus that I used (v 1.0) did not have a feature that I have grown to love in gmc: simple and easy navigation of compressed archives.
And I don't mean a dropdown option for "view as archive" either. The gmc metaphor for archives as extensions to the filesystem tree is optimal in my opinion.
- I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
Can you run that same configuration utility AFTER you install, so you can easily modify your available resolutions if you say, get a new monitor, or just decide you want different resolutions available?
I'll have to disagree here. Those kinds of tools should be handled by the distribution, not the desktop environment. GNOME is supposed to be Solaris's new desktop of choice... what happens when Ximian integrates config helpers that are specific to a certain OS?
;), but such great products as KDE and GNOME shouldn't be irrevocably tied to *any single* OS...
I'm not saying that there shouldn't be, say, Kholdmyhand or gneedsomehelpwithmyconfig, but that would take away from the true focus of the desktops. RedHat or SuSe or whoever should be in the business of supplying the config tools. I love GNU/Linux (do I get karma points for that?
There are a lot of tradeoffs in cbanging the standard timeslice...
Make it too small, and you are dominated by the overhead of switching between tasks (not a small amount of work... have to push all registers to the stack, swap stacks, and grab all old registers).
Make it too large and average response time is hurt.
My guess is that with your change things appear faster, but in the end you've actually hurt your overall throughput (the amount of computational work you actually get done in a given time).
I bet other people can give you a better explanation, the OS class here at the University of Arizona is shit....
Doug
Venn ist das nurnstuck git und Slotermeyer? Ya! Beigerhund das oder die Flipperwaldt gersput!
Already in the works, and pre-dates both projects.
www.gnustep.com
William
--
Lettering Art in Modern Use
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
update-rc.d -f gdm remove
GPL made simple: What was my stuff is now our stuff. If you improve our stuff, please keep it our stuff.
Not to be a troll or off topic, but if people would partition their drives up correctly, you wouldn't have to blow away all your settings when you need to do a reinstall.
Course, the people who know how to partition up their drives never seem to do reinstalls anways.
--Nuintari
slashdot : where an opinion can be wrong.
hey, speak for your own desktop. My Linux desktop looks nothing like windows and I like it that way. Gnome and KDE copy windows, Linux looks like whatever ya want it to.
--Nuintari
slashdot : where an opinion can be wrong.
You serious? man, I don't like KDE, so I never had it installed, but I can see its good points, and I don't even use gnome. Everybody always asked me what I hated about Ximian, and until now, I never had an excuse, I just decided that advanced gnome was even more evil than regular gnome. Now I have ammo! Thanks! All my fellow lug'ers can stop bugging me to install Ximian on my box.
--Nuintari
slashdot : where an opinion can be wrong.
How is this done? I assume there is a line in some startup script which is resposible for start up x. But which one, and where can I find it? Is that command startx? and if so, should the command 'nice -n -10 starx' be substituted for this? Also to the origional poster, since you are changing a header file, wouldn't this require a recompile?
Spencer Ogden
> If I were new to Linux, I'd be looking to these control panels...
Well, that's the key, isn't it? Because in MS Windows, you could change some system settings in a GUI control panel, you expect to be able to do the same thing in Linux.
Guess what? Linux isn't Windows.
It's funny, most old-school Unix people don't seem to have any trouble with textfile-based communication. It's only the Windows users that switch over and expect to do everything in Linux the same way as in Windows.
It's almost as if they assume the Microsoft way is the best way... Seems logical, right?
Hmmm...
--
All glory to the hypno-toad!
The original post I responded to was regarding hardware configuration--linuxconf, Harddrake, etc--tools that mimic things like Windows device manager and that crap mmc shit that comes with Win2k.
Hardware configuration is not an everyday task. You'll do it once, and then a couple years later when you upgrade some piece of hardware, you'll do it again. For low level admin-type tasks like a hardware upgrade, I'd much rather deal with clean text files than mess with a GUI device manager. Text-based configuration typically gives you far greater control than a GUI-based system.
Windows looks pretty and all for admnistration, until something goes wrong. Then it's goddamn nearly impossible to troubleshoot and fix.
However, most Windows users coming over to Unix don't see things like this. They want to be able to point and click their way through system admistration because that's what their familiar with. They don't realize how much easier a Unix system can be to adminstrate. That's the point I was trying to make...
Of course, for user-level configuration, GUI tools are quite nice and every major linux window manager has them. So what's the problem here?
Just because MS Windows fools the user into thinking that system administration is on the same level as user configuration doesn't mean that's the way it should be.
--
All glory to the hypno-toad!
It was already ZDNetted, linuxtodayed and newsforged!!! I've been trying to find a mirror all damn morning!
What about setting X to SCHED_RR? Has this worked any better than nice -10?
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Or you could use sudo.
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Someone else has mentioned GNUSTEP already, but that seems to be advancing about as quickly as GNU/HURD.
Actually, GNUStep just released the FoundationKit v1.0, it is making real progress.
That's a very intriguing design. I would imagine it would make Linux respond WAY faster. It would certainly help in the desktop end, and it appears the extremely high-end also. I look forward to trying this out in 2.5 (Let's hope it makes it in...)
Yes, the kernel needs to be recompiled.. to any kernel hackers out there.. is there a /proc interface to HZ?
Ian
Recently, I was writing an application in Java that used small Thread.sleep(). It was appearing to sleep _way_ too long though. Thread.sleep(0,1) (one nanosecond) would sleep the same as Thread.sleep(10) (10 milliseconds). I began to think of why this might be.. and then it hit me.. it's the context switching. So I looked around and found some sites talking about real-time audio and changing the context switching speed.
/usr/src/linux/include/asm-i386/param.h file to #define HZ 1000 rather than #define HZ 100 everything GUI was _much_ _much_ faster. The GIMP seems to load in literally 1/5 the time.
I found if you change the
Why don't distribuations like Ximian suggest this change? With heavily multi-threaded gui applications it seems to me it's an absolute must. Everything seems to run better to me with the faster context switching. (well, except for remote X, with the fast switching it seems to update a lot faster, and thus clog the connection and make it seem slow).
Anyone know why this is not more heavily publicized?
Ian
Package dependencies could not be completely resolved and Ximian GNOME cannot be installed on your system. This is usually caused by third-party software that conflicts with Ximian GNOME. Please report this problem (and the information below) to distribution@ximian.com for assistance.
Except there's *absolutely no* information below. I'm fine with something not working, but there's nothing I hate more than poor error messages.
Distro is RH 7.1. Upgraded from 7.0 (the install complained about Eazel Nautilus dependencies) and ran the installer. It gave the error message above. Then I got rid of Eazel Nautilus and re-ran the installer. Same message.
Grr.
>> we also have stuff like elvis.
Vim, heathen
25% Funny, 25% Insightful, 25% Informative, 25% Troll
Does anyone agree that linuxconfig, as compared to Webmin, totally sucks? I've been really impressed with Webmin.
I rather like that idea, even though I am primarily a CLI guy when it comes to configuration. Not only would the modules be separate for each system/architecture, but such modules could theoretically be bundled with drivers provided by third-party hardware makers.
For example, everyone knows that when you install the latest new graphics card in Windows, that you can get to all of the driver settings and properties by clicking on the Display icon in the Control Panel.
Something similar to this could work with Gnome/KDE... thought I wouldn't be keen on tying users into specific categories (Display, Sound, Mouse, etc), I'd simply have all modules listed in the main tree. (GeForce DDR, SB Live!, etc)
The one last thing that will need to be addressed eventually is whether these utilities are going to be available to the users or only root?
the lack of such a feature is inexcusable.
Well then, I guess it's high time you break out your favorite code-writing software and go to town, eh?
(Sorry, but I have a low tolerance for people who make demands like this about open source software.)
Well I use NEDIT and I think it kicks butt - mostly cause it has a very similar look and feel to a windows based editor. If I have to do some one liner extra quick I use VI.
This post brought to you by your friendly neighborhood MBA.
I guess the Debian install instructions on your site just haven't been updated to indicate this yet. (And here I was worried the Eazel/Nautilus conspiracy of only releasing RPMs had spread to Ximian.
-=-=-=-=-
-=-=-=-=-
My mom's going to kick you in the face!
I'm currently in the process of downloading their "Red Carpet" installer, which looks to me like I am now stuck with using this stupid GUI package tool thingie to manage my debian packages instead of the much preferred (to me) command-line 'apt-get' tool.
Can anyone say for sure one way or the other who's already done this with Debian?
-=-=-=-=-
-=-=-=-=-
My mom's going to kick you in the face!
Oh great, ANOTHER open desktop.
All the desktops out there are going to be one of the biggest things that keeps Linux from having a serious success in the desktop market any time soon. One thing I love about Windows - It looks the same wherever I go. Sure they have made interface changes over the years, but in thirty seconds I can make it look and act just like it did back in the 3.0 days. This is great when I have to run from computer to computer.
No such luck with Linux. There are dozens of desktops. More crap gets kludged into newer versions of GNOME and KDE with every release than Microsoft ever crams into theirs. It makes for a big, nasty, confusing mess that gets more and more annoying over the years.
I am sure people will say that this is better because it gives new choices/better code/etc.. But the consumer market our there doesn't give a damn. They want something easy to use, that barely changes, and if it does change, just gets simpler (Like OS X, or what XP would do if M$ would dump all the stuff left from old interfaces that they mix in.) over time.
anyway...
Which still does little good for basic consumers confused by the myriad of choices and new versions.
Linuxconf needs a lot of help. Linuxconf is probably the most important thing Linux has, because it makes the OS accessable to the neophyte. And right now, it sucks ass. It takes too long to do anything, freezes, and often never makes the changes it claims to have. It is incapable of configuring X, and given that Linux needs to make serious inroads on the desktop to keep growing, the lack of such a feature is inexcusable.
Every Linux vendor out there should have at least one programmer working on Linuxconf full time. They should be working on stuff that goes into the base code, no hacking it up to produce distro-specific stuff.
I guarantee you that once Linuxconf does what is can now more reliably, and also handles X configurations, Linux use will explode. Until then, we will just see Linux stagnate as the choice of geeks.
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E2 IN2 IE?
I'm sorry this sounds like a flame, but from what I've seen over the last year with Ximian/Helix, I'm really not impressed. They've continued to constant UI mistake after constant UI mistake. I'm not talking about things that are a matter of preference, I'm talking about stuff that's cross platform/UI faux pas that no competant professional UI design would ever do. Things that break consistancy, or that could confuse a user and cause them to spend large amounts of time trying to do something simple, or something that would confuse them into making a terrible error. On top of that, Ximian's blind copying of microsoft has duplicated many of the UI design errors microsoft committed long when they intentionally did the exact opposite of apple's well-researched implementations in order to avoid getting sued by Jobs & co. I am seeing fantastic artwork from ximian. I am seeing intense work being done on also sorts of object oriented, CORBA aware goodies. But in all this mish-mash of geek compliant stuff, I am not seeing any empathy with your average user or a desire to build an interface better than any yet created. I know that Ximian more or less doesn't consider usability problems to be problems. Just like Red Hat, or for that matter, just about every other software company on the planet. I've been given no other choice but to strike out on my own and use their source to create a new version of GNOME that addresses these problems. At least the GPL gives me that opportunity (try doing that with Microsoft!). No, I'm not yelling "fork" just to scare people. The code's for the initial release looks promising so far. Hope I can finish it soon.
Regardless of whether or not people use Mozilla as a browser, it's an excellent idea for distros to ship it. The reason? Mozilla is an application development framework. I may prefer Lynx to Mozilla-the-browser (or any other GUI-based browser...), but that doesn't mean that I'll never want to run Komodo or any of the interesting bits being developed on top of Mozilla at mozdev. Shipping a copy of Mozilla with a distro allows the end users to take advantage of mozilla-based XP apps, regardless of whether they ever *touch* Seamonkey.
I think it's be closer to say that he just likes good software. I'm using Konqueror right now, running under a severly hacked Ximian Gnome 1.2. Konqueror's good for light browsing on most sites; I use Mozilla when I come across java, flash or ssl.
Here's my DeCSS mirror, where's yours?
It was already ZDNetted, linuxtodayed and newsforged!!!
Indeed, why should Slashdot get the sole honor of bringing servers to their knees? :-)
-Karl
P.S. Haven't you just contradicted your username? ;-)
You were playing Ultima 5, not 6. It was an easy game, but very fun and had nice music.
Translation: (it looks nonsense, but it might not be accurate - I haven't touched Latin for quite some time)
What if he knows the Latin language, he'll know you are not the other message.
See you,
Ambrosius
Red-carpet is now statically linked against all libs so it should work after you fetch the latest release (1.0 rc something) and all those download problems should have been fixed. Allthou, ximian's site seems to be /.'ed as hell
--
yush
Dissapointed.
I'm on Red Hat 7.1, and when I start, either go-gnome or download install prg for RH7 and RH7.1, M$ Ximian tells me that in order to install himself he must remove 27 packages, and when we look at which packages we can see:
kde*, completely kde, including koffice konquorer etc. etc.
Ximian, what are you doing?
Although people have been talking only so-so about Nautilus, I have been using it on Linux-Mandrake 8.0 (and beta 3) and have grown quite fond of it's beauty, interface, and utter simplicity to use. I have never really "barfed out" on me (although the viewing HTML as text by default was a little annoying). I would love this FM to become the default FM for Linux in general. But, what I would really like to know...and I am sorry that this is a little off topic...since EFM was mentioned, what is going on with Enlightenment? Is E trying to become an entirely self contained Window Manager complete with a FM, graphics library, Berkeley DB, and basically everything. Why doesn't anyone talk about this?? It seems to be a lot more interesting to me that a small group of dedicated people are able to easily implement something like OpenGL rendered Anti-Aliased Fonts and graphics in Enlightenment complete with a Berkeley DB and FM...when developers can't seem to make even the AA font work right in either KDE or Gnome. Does anyone have any idea what Enlightenment is doing and does it want to replace KDE and/or Gnome as the Desktop/Window manager of the future? Because if it does...then I will be the first to vote for it. I have always loved it. It just appears to me that whatever comes out for KDE or Gnome is being quickly replaced in Enlightenment with something faster, prettier, easier to use, more stable and more productive from the Enlightenment team.
For the umpteenth time, Ximian doesn't hate Slackware, and is not biased against Slackware.
There are two major reasons Ximian GNOME isn't build for Slackware:
1) Slackware does not support internal dependency checking or management, and the rpm bolt-on is not sufficient for Red Carpet. We have spoken with the Slackware maintainers and they feel that users should know their own dependency trees and maintain them. Any user who cannot sort out library versions for him or herself does not deserve root privs, they say.
2) Slackware users are not the Ximian GNOME target market. Slackware users are frequently console users, compilers-from-scratch, and knowers of their own dependency trees.This is excellent for them. They don't need Ximian GNOME, so we're not really there for them.
If you want Ximian GNOME in Slackware, talk to the Slack maintainers and ask them to port it.
You can see a longer explanation, and install tips, at my unofficial Ximian GNOME on Slack page at http://primates.ximian.com/~aaron/slack.html
Sincerely,
Aaron Weber
Technical Writer
Ximian, Inc.
Ximian's GNOME installer is very broke.
"System query failed: unable to access RPM database".
Where can I get the actual RPMs for this thing? My RPM database has been working just fine thank you very much.
========================
63,000 bugs in the code, 63,000 bugs,
ya get 1 whacked with a service pack,
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
Sometimes I really think the free software people go too far. I know why Kde and Gnome both exist independently. But it really would be good to see them join together... Of course it will never happen...(and No...I'm not about to go program my own stuff...I'm no programmer, I'm Lazy.) I disclaim all my comments cause I am drunk at the moment, feel fre to correct or inform me. But No flames, they just annoy me and I wont respond anyway
Okay, it doesn't, but it should.
The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
Wow a FM, web browser ftp browser, it even lets you see the file before you have to open it, I will have to play with it more to see if I do really like it but it looks good from what I see now.
Getting sysadmin acceptance for overhauling the config file formats [...] is never going to happen either. So the problem is "stuck" and probably will be until someone forks a distribution. (Note that I'm trying to avoid anything mentioning a markup language that starts with X. Whoops...)
My hope is that when people see the XML files that MacOS X uses for much of its setup, they'll see the advantage, and some of that support might come. We'll have to wait and see...
So don't try it, it might make a mess.
From the go-gnome script:
Official support for Woody has been held back due to installation
problems. We hope to have an officially supported install path on
Woody within the next couple of weeks. In the meantime, you're
welcome to try to install our Potato packages on Woody, but we make
no guarantees.
They're not wrong there either. It was a right mess when I tried it a couple of weeks ago on my Woody system (using the go-gnome wizardy thing). Control Center hung when you opened the Sawfish controls, and I couldn't get any sound at all even with esd and oss working perfectly.
I hope they get it fixed soon, Debian Potato is too old for me now (particularly the glibc it uses). If anyone gets it working properly (with sound!) I'd be interested to know.
the one I used was http://a1220.g.akamai.net/7/1220/1405/200104232327 52/red-carpet.ximian.com/
The site was unusable well before the announcement came out on slashdot. I noticed last night that they were changing things on the site in preparation for rolling it out, but when I tried downloading this morning, well before this article hit, it was already maxed out on bandwidth. It's going to be a while before everyone can get it.
There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.
Of course nobody is suggesting that graphical configuration tools should replace text config files, just that there should be useful graphical tools available to generate and edit them. If you want to hack them by hand you should be allowed to, but you shouldn't cut users out because they want to do things using a GUI tool. The attitude that Unix has always used text config files and so it shouldn't need a GUI now has a lot to do with its reputation for being obscure and difficult to use.
As opposed to you, who assume that the Unix way is the right way, right? Just because MS uses graphical configuration tools doesn't mean that it's the wrong way of doing things. There are a number of ways that graphical tools can be useful, like having built in rulesets so that users can't accidentally use invalid values, or presenting users with a list of reasonable choices, or filling in default values when appropriate. They can also unify a large number of related config files into a single interface so that you don't have to jump back and forth between different files all the time. Just because MS got some aspects of their configuration tools wrong doesn't mean that you should reject the idea of GUI configuration completely.
There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.
I'm hardly a beginner at computers, and I've got all my MP3's lumped into one place. I can browse 'em pretty easy too.
What is the best way to install Ximian Gnome with out having a fast internet connection?
Thanks!
I thought Taco had agreed to WAIT a few days after an annoucement to avoid \.ing the site before mirroring has even started. I've just tried Ximian.com, it's unusable.
I just wish that GNOME and KDE would include XFree86 configuration utilities
Totally agree.
they should make a bigger deal of the latest version of linuxconf
Now on this point the waters get muddier. I'm the first one in line to point out the lack of GUI config tools presently available. Problem with what you're saying is that "linuxconf" is just that, a Linux configuration tool. Both Gnome and KDE are Unix applications meant to work on a variety of platforms.
When appropriate, these folks should be pushing config tools for Unix applications. I would even hope that we would see GUI tools for system specific issues, as much of linuxconf deals with. What isn't such a hot idea at the moment is having these folks just ignore all other platforms for the sake of Linux. A balance needs to be had in dealing with this kind of thing.
The line must be drawn here. This far. No further.
To quote Winston Churchill, "This is something up with which I will not put."
No experience of Win2K, but I run KDE 2.1 every day, 8 hours a day It crashes probably once every two to three weeks. My business partner has Win98 and crashes daily - at least.
Just my experience, not necessarily typical
Dave
Freedom of speech won't feed my children
Any comments? I'd make this comparison myself if the Ximian servers weren't swamped right now...
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Progeny Debian does this!
If you have never checked it out, download it!. It is just one ISO that can be easily be burnt to a CD. Easiest install ever. And in their config, you can set up X resolutions, color depths and stuff from the same gui config tool that does sounds, window managers, and stuff like that. Check it out!
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
And that's only if you log in in console mode. If you use XDM/KDM all you have to do is type your username and your WM of choice is automagically selected.
With Linux, the interface is just there - whichever one you happen to like.
Microsoft's VP of Customer Service is Helen Waite. If you are having problems with their products go to Helen Waite.
True, I know that KDE and GNOME run a variety of platforms. However, on ALMOST all of the platforms, XFree86 is being used - on almost all versions of Linux and *BSD. As for everyone calling out "code bloat", I never said that they needed to be part of the main install, but I think that RedHat and others should be working hard to put KDE and GNOME compatible hardware configuration utilities on their distributions, and available for download for those of us running Linux with XFree86 (I'd say the majority, but I have no statistics).
Sounds like Ximian has a project started. Seems to me that Ximian is the best company out there right now looking to make Linux more easily installed and configured (KDE setup is horrible, while Ximian GNOME is a breeze). I just hope they can stay in business.
"The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent." --Carl Sagan
I just wish that GNOME and KDE would include XFree86 configuration utilities (like DrakConf for Mandrake does, only a bit cleaner). In addition, they should make a bigger deal of the latest version of linuxconf, which seems to be the most comprehensive hardware and service control. I still use netcfg by RedHat sometimes to set up Gateway and DNS info.
My point here is, these application sets (KDE and GNOME) have been focusing almost entirely on configuration utilities for the GUI. The GNOME and KDE control-panels are useful only for changing simple things like backgrounds, themes, and keyboard shortcuts. If I were new to Linux, I'd be looking to these control panels to modify my screen resolution, set up my network (and network hardware), set up my sound card (I still use sndconfig sometimes), and other devices. A new user expects all system configuration to be in one place, like the Windows control panel. This was my experience when I first started using Linux about two years ago, and I had to do a fair amount of searching to find all of these little useful utilities (as well as editing config files manually) - like netcfg, sndconfig, Xconfigurator, linuxconf, etc. If nothing else, GNOME and KDE should include links and info about how and what to use to do these things.
I may be incorrect on a few points and simply missed how KDE and/or GNOME handle a feature - in that case, I'd like to know. However, it's been my experience that GNOME and KDE can't be truly newbie-friendly without the ability to easily change hardware (and service) settings.
"The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent." --Carl Sagan
Ximian desktop is super solid
I'll have the soup
Damnit, they finally add Mandrake 7.2 support just as Mandrake 8.0 is released. And what's with supporting Redhat 7.1 but not Mandrake 8.0? Comparable distros from what I've seen - at least the site says mdk8 support coming soon.
I'm not knocking Ximian - I used Helix on my old work PC that had Mandrake 7.1 - it's very nice.
One more thing: anyone got a url for info and download for EFM? Is it dead? Freshmeat leads to a 404 and I couldn't find it on enlightenment.org.
No, I did not read the f***ing article!
Actually the website says that Mandrake 7.2 is supported. And Mandrake 8.0 (x86) is coming soon.
No, I did not read the f***ing article!
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C'mon, flame me!
No sig for the moment.
Ok, so the Red Carpet stuff is fine and dandy, but please next time remind Miguel of how things are here in Mexico (and most other countries too). We dont have broadband, and downloading the full 130+ MB (even from Akamai) on a modem is really something that I would have loved to avoid.
Not that I would have made it a lot lighter, but least I would have taken off a couple of packages I wont use.
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C'mon, flame me!
No sig for the moment.
Is this a ready-to-use, more stable version or just a time-to-market urging version, to help Eazel problems? KDE 2.1 took a while to be ready, but they did a good job (mainly at the konqueror front).
. . .
ok wait now...huge directories...like...huge directories of mp3s? isn't that the stuff "beginners" have, all their mp3s lumped into one place? So it's gonna barf for the new users, so maybe that's not so great, and if it's barfing, is it really super solid? You've got me confused!
. . .
I get a lot of flak for suporting KDE sometimes. I've never been a big fan of GNOME for my own use though I admit it is as elegant as ever. They look so remarkably similiar, and their design intended that to some degree I believe. Warning* -> I know we've heard this a thousand times before, it would be nice to see them come together somewhat. Is too much choice a good thing?
Just asking.
yoink
I remember back in Ultima 6, in the Underworld, I'd be walking around searching for Lord British and these gnome's would jump out and attack me. Now that just wasn't very nice, Dupre would typically kick their butts with his sword swinging bard skills, and if that didn't work he would sing to them (egad!). Alas, I hope that this Gnome is different...
Fruit flies like bananas... Time flies like the wind...
Yes, I have played everything up to Ultima 8, then quit as I entered college. . .
Fruit flies like bananas... Time flies like the wind...
You missed "proactive" and "B2B", though.
Still, I laughed out loud, something rare for me to do when reading slashdot. :)
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I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
Why [don't] the developers find something better to copy from? Say, Mac OS.
Because every time a Linux developer tries, Slashdot has to run a story called "Another Apple Cease-and-Desist."
Anyway, how different can you really get from either when you're stuck with concepts like widgets, buttons, titlebars, windows, etc. -- and if you throw these out -- some paradigm for computing sans windows or buttons, for example -- who's going to use it?
Certainly not end-users. If you don't give them a "Start" menu at this point, they're not going to get it. If you don't give them a window and a title bar, they certainly won't.
I know, I know. We don't want Linux to be used. Only studied by the technically curious. And we don't care about Apple and it's copyrights. Anarchy! Anarchy! Down with the end-users! Down with the corporations! Rah! Rah! Rah!
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
An all-encompassing graphical/text config. utility like linuxconf
Every section should have a "How do I do this myself?" button which would give a blurb about which files you could edit yourself to change the same thing. A person switching to linux doesn't have to be assumed to be stupid. If they can handle setting things up themselves, why shouldn't we help them find out how to do it easily?
For new users, instead of just saying "DNS Server" or "Search Domain #1" or whatever, why not have a button that explains in simple english what this stuff is? These buttons could be hidden if the user is in intermediate or expert mode, a la Nautilus (or they wouldn't even be using this program anyway).
The central config./help utility needs some sort of process control built in, or some explanation of what to do if a program hangs. The new user will think that Evolution .9 crashing and leaving a window that doesn't close on the desktop means they have to reboot like in Win9x. And having someone tell you to read the man page for ps/top/kill/etc doesn't help at all if you don't even know what a process is. Why not help them understand that a program crashing is not a problem at all and help them to get on with their work?
The list continues...
Now, I'm sure that the first reply to this message will be something like "They should RTFM" or "This is linux, not a mac". This is the prevent attitude of computer science people in general. And in many cases, I agree that making people do things themselves teaches them how to do it best. I very rarely ask people how to make something work, because if I find out myself, I remember what I did and why it worked. But this just isn't reasonable for most users. Most HOWTOs and newsgroup posts are written in language that the average computer user doesn't understand. It's too much to take in at once. Reading a proof for a theorem doesn't help if you don't understand what any of the steps mean. Carl Sagan has some good ideas on making the average public understand complicated things in "Demon Haunted World". We need to get over the idea that explaining things in an easy to understand way is a Bad Thing.
Both of my hands don't provide enough fingers to count the number of computer professionals I know who have checked out linux only to think it is awful because the distro's install was lacking or they couldn't get X running.
Uninnovate - Only the finest in engineering.
MonkeyTalk live support is touted on the front page - is this their version of Clippy? Please, say it isn't so....
+5:offtopic,but anti-American
Thanks for the link, but the site was slashdotted before I could read more.
+5:offtopic,but anti-American
dosnt ximian have a bunch of mirrors? There site is just getting hammered. I remember form their old installer they had a bunch of mirrors. Why dont they have a list of them on there web site? can anyone post the list?
I like Sawfish standalone myself. Enlightenment-esque eye candy that's faster and lighter...
So why are you promoting the ridiculous myth that Slackware users are console users?
What exactly is Ximian's problem with Slackware? Do you have something against Volkerding personally, or are all Slackware users on your shit list?
Si quis linguam latinam cognosceret, sciret nuntium tuum non altum esse. Vale, Ambrosius
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dissertus scribendo latine videri volo.
GNOME? Who needs it?
I prefer BlackBox... smaller footprint.. but I doubt anyone will want to go into flame-wars over windowmanagers now, do they?
However, nautaurius is pretty cool... gimmie! =)
A word of warning to folks who have been running Ximian/Beta 1.4 stuff on top of RH7. Upgrading to RH7.1 may be a very painful experience for you. My Ximian/1.4/Sawfish environment became increasing unstable after a 7.1 upgrade this weekend, and I ultimately ended up doing a complete reinstall to get the stock Gnome 1.2 stuff on that distro. (This included blowing away any/all GNOME/Ximian/Sawfish settings in accounts.)
:)
:)
I'm still struggling w/ a few kernel-related oddities, but things are starting to return to normalcy. If you do plan to upgrade, do so cautiously and only after you've backed up critical data to a server or CDR. But you already knew that didn't you.
On the upside, RH7.1 did a pretty bang up job identifying hardware in my system and configuring it. Some items which have traditionally been difficult to get working ran right out of the box. Gotta look for that silver lining.
I found it interesting to note that Netscape is listed as a deprecated app in the RH7.1 install docs. Mozilla shows up in the distro along w/ some (apparent) utils to migrate bookmarks, email, address books, etc. from Netscape to Mozilla. I've not tried them yet, but it looks like Redhat is moving in that direction.
This can also happen if you try to access the RPM database from a nonprivileged account.
I can't do an 80 Meg or so download, so does anyone have any info on whether they'll make it available inexpensively on a CD like LSL or CheapBytes?
Or, for that matter will LSL or Cheapbytes themselves make a CD of the Ximian Gnome files available?
my gut tell me the latest paradigm shift is leading to customer centric initiatives and away from affinity marketing Good try, but you left out the words XML and e-.
Because we include the Red Carpet application, installing and removing packages after you've done an install is very easy and most of our users didn't use the fine-grained individual package selection. And yeah, it's pretty big...
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dude, assbarn it.
Obligatory .NET mention. Please don't forget to .NET during your next commercial message as we will have to remove your corporate inplants and send you back to middle management if these infractions continue.
no mandrake 7.2 support... hmm... guess they'll never support mandrake 8 (yea I know it has most of this stuff, but I mean updater, etc.) or greater anytime soon.
===> An eye for an eye makes everyone blind - MG
When installing Ximian on Slackware, a kludge must be employed whereby one creates a file called 'redhat-release' in /etc so as to fool the Ximian installer into thinking that you're running RedHat.
Should you choose to try to install from sources, then you must be prepared for something to invariably go wrong.
I honestly think that the lack of Slackware support in Ximian, and their blatent preference for RedHat, is completely anti-OSS and very reminiscent of one Microsoft.
- Chris Z. Wintrowski -
[ Site ]
I'm still recommending KDE to my clients when they need a Linux solution. KDE has a much better synergy with regards to any value assessment I've done. While Gnome is stable like a rock and probably more "fun" than KDE, my gut tell me the latest paradigm shift is leading to customer centric initiatives and away from affinity marketing, which is more than likely a good thing.
I'm actually waiting for someone to step up to the open source plate, as it were, and show me a real forward thinking Desktop. I don't want change just for the sake of change, nor do my clients, I want a new direction, something that leads us out of the copy windows rutm not that that's totally bad, it's just tired. People will need somthing which looks beyond our limited thinking to deal with the problems that lie ahead.
Wagner LLC Consulting Co. - Getting it right the first time
Linux desktop has been copying windows for years (the start button, task bar, tab pages...) and still looks ugly. Why the developers find something better to copy from? Say, Mac OS.
1. The Ximian installer doesn't appear to have a "Custom" installation option, allowing me to not install individual packages. I didn't want gnapster or gaim, for example, but they came with the group I picked, so now I have them anyway...
2. 136MB!!!
Q