(Trying not to be off-topic for this post, but...)
This is one of the things the Dvorak layout was made to exploit. For instance, (now is the time to look at a key chart) typing the word "month" on dvorak makes the "nth" basically one motion. The vowel combinations are this way as well. That "pipelining" is particularly good when the keys in the pipe are nearby on different fingers on the same hand. Qwerty does well at cross-hand patterns, but some of those can be vulnerable to miss-timing issues. (The first auto-correct entry is "teh"->"the").
They couldn't get them all, though, such as "gh" "ct" "rn" etc. but I guess those are statistically less frequent than the big ones: "th" "sh" "cr" and so on... I like the example word some Dvorak article used to show the difference. Excruciating. Type it in Qwerty, then go look it up on a dvorak. Not that we all type "excruciating" that often, but is a somewhat worst-case example.
Just more shameless advocacy of the Dvorak layout.
Well, the only way I can respond is to say that this is a case of instincts vs actual experience. Theory vs observation. "Think about it" vs "I have one sitting in front of me." I don't mean to ridicule or anything, but that is all I can say.
I have typed on most kinds of keyboards at some point -- mostly on those basic Dell keyboards. Now the only keyboards that come even close to the low-stress properties if the LP sitting in front of me are the laptop keyboards. Those keyboards are just soft enough to make your point somewhat accurate. But I only use those keyboards because I got tired of the hassle of moving the LP from computer to computer.
In order to type quickly, your fingers MUST move faster.
At some point, some speed threshold, this becomes true, but the brain has to be moving faster than the fingers for that to be the case. The average typer has fast fingers already, the only improvements come from faster reflex and thought, less idle time during typing. This is at least the case for me -- my hands and fingers have not yet been forced to resort to faster movement and harder impact to increase speed.
Now you could argue that I'm exaggerating the effect of these "impacts"
I can and I will, briefly. I wish I had some hard measurements rather than just emphatic assertion, but I can type just as fast on this without going nuts on the finger slamming enough to make the stress comparable to any other keyboard, even the laptop. The force is much less than someone audibly "thumping" their fingers on a desk, and I have never done this for long periods of time, but I imagine it wouldn't do any measurable damage, except for the eventual violent beating by anyone near me.
And I have to disagree on the statement that this "capacitance" keyboard (I have no good idea how the LP works) offers no cushion or impact absorbsion. It is padded slightly on the surface, on the bottom (soft rubber anti-slide surfaces), and on the metal tent frame (slight "give"). Sure it isn't nearly the energy-return of a spring-loaded key, but it is certainly softer than tapping on a thick metal plate or something equally rigid.
Of course, a capacitance user also has the extra work of lifting his fingers.
Now here you have a very good point, but my theory is that the natural "centered" position of the fingers maintained by muscle tension does most of the work. It is impossible to test for sure, but the only part of my hand that I feel the effort of lifting is my entire hand, at the wrist. The fingers feel relaxed even when they are suspended a cm above the surface. Of course, it is hard to "feel" things on a scale such as this -- maybe I am just used to it now.
The bottom line is that I agree that your ideas about the physics are correct, but they don't come into consideration for "normal" use. Now if you type like Jim Carrey (I've only seen the previews), perhaps a good spring keyboard is best, if just for the keyboard's sake.
Re:It sounds good but
on
YOPY Arrives
·
· Score: 1
Sarcasm or hasty ignorance? One can never tell these days.
Re:It sounds good but
on
YOPY Arrives
·
· Score: -1, Troll
Perhaps we are talking about different keyboards. I can type faster with this than a mechanical, overall. I may burst-type faster on a mechanical keyboard, causing the strain you mentioned.
Send a link to something about these decades-old keyboards you're talking about, because I am confused. With a light touch, I can type fast enough to keep me happy. I have never had to use alot of force/downward speed with this, with nowhere near the impact force of a good forte strike of a piano key, regardless of the key moving or "cushioning".
Zero-force is a good thing by my estimation, but it would be foolish to think it is right for everyone. If you are curious about what it takes to type on these keyboards at a reasonable speed, perhaps you could print out the key layout and mock type -- not for accuracy, just speed. Only use a light tap then see how much additional speed a hard tap gives you.
The typing is certainly a drawback for a long time after getting the keyboard. But it is the gesturing that makes the ZF typing worth it for me. Except on the keyboards with that stupid eraser-J-key mouse peg thing, nothing lets you do all your mousing without removing your hand from the keyboard, even if you are left-handed. And I don't even have to reach to the side to hold the Shift/Ctrl/Alt keys when typing. There are so many more gestures, most of which are commonly used. The keyboards-of-old you mention may not have been worth it then, but they certainly are now.
Your Mileage May Vary, of course. Been a pleasure debating.
Your point #1 is good, except obviously in most local terminals where it doesn't apply.
In response to #2: On the Touchstream keyboard, dragging around 2 fingers on the right hand acts as the mouse cursor. However, dragging around 2 fingers on the left hand acts as the TEXT cursor. It takes some getting used to, but on a local terminal, it is very responsive and easy to control precisely.
Apart from the fact that I am an evil emacs user, this method seems easier than brain-mapping any set of keys to text cursor movement, unless a slow terminal makes it impossible to control or interpret key codes. Sure I still use n/p/f/b from time to time, but usually only for the Meta commands.
I share your frustrations learning to type on this thing. My advice is to "center" your hands before typing a sentence or whatever. You do this by putting all 5 fingers on each hand down at once, then you slide them around til they are all on the "braille" dots. Then you adjust your heals to where the fingers are comfortably angled. Then type away. If you make a bunch of typos, stop and recenter. It takes practice, but it does get better.
For me, the hardest thing is reaching the pinky keys (ie. P, or L in dvorak), but when I miss those keys, I recenter and angle my hands more inward.
Again, not to be confrontational, but your concept of what is necessary for typing "zero force" is off. There isn't massive acceleration when your finger hits the pad. This is not the same typing as with a mechanical keyboard, but with no springs. You bearly have to tap the keys on these keyboards.
The only added effort I can see is using the extensor muscles to hold your fingers above the keys when not typing, but in those instances, the keyboard lets you relax by putting ALL fingers down on the pad. This does not cause spurious keystrokes. Besides, put your heals on the desk with the fingers elevated and see how long it takes for your forearms to become the least bit fatigued. I am sure a physical therapist could recommend some exercises to do if your hands get tired immediately.
Really, the force required here is a fraction of that required for even the softest mechanical keyboard, and the impact stress is neglegable.
My advice, don't knock it til you try it. The force to overcome the springs and such is thousands of times more than simply RELAXING the finger and letting it drop onto the pad. Tap your fingers lightly on your desk. Chances are that is more than enough for this keyboard to respond. How can that be "more work" than pushing down a spring-loaded key? As far as the stress involved on the fingers/hands, I have played piano for 17 years, and that is infinitely more forceful than this keyboard, and I am perfectly fine (I think). Besides, I am not sure, but I think that this keyboard is still padded, at least on the bottom. If you really are pounding away at the force you imply, it should still cushion the force to some degree.
So try to find one to demo or buy one and try it, your assessment simply wrong.
Okay, from what I can gather, those who have one of these keyboards love it, but those who don't either are sceptical of the touch typing or wary of the price. This is what I expected when I submitted this.
By zero force, they mean that no movement is required on the part of the key, you need only touch the area on the touchpad. The only necessary force is that of gravity on your finger, since the sensor can "see" your finger even when it barely touches the pad. It is actually quite easy to use after a while, and the biggest obstacle is keeping the hands from drifting while typing. Using it without some sort of padding to elevate the heals of my hands is both painful and annoying since my hands tend to drift quite a bit otherwise. Touch typing is very possible, if the hands are kept stationary. In fact, I am forced to touch type since I got the Qwerty keyboard and type in dvorak, which most dvorak users will agree is commonplace.
Dvorak... This keyboard remaps its keys in the firmware. I don't use soft-dvorak because the extra keys (read about the programmers pad) would be un-mapped and wrong. I also very frequently revert back to Qwerty with only about 2-3 or sometimes 5 minutes of painful confusion, usually after not typing qwerty for a while. Actually, it is sometimes more painful reverting to mechanical keyboards, even those in dvorak, since my hands get so spoiled by the ZF typing.
Also, using emacs is surprisingly easy with the included gestures. Ctrl-x? easy, thumb and middle finger dragged together. Ctrl-s? thumb and first three fingers dragged together. Et cetera. Those and similar gestures are actually intended for cut, save, etc, but each gesture is mapped to a keystroke, so it can be used anywhere that keystroke is appropriate. Also, using two fingers on the left hand, you move the cursor around. They include a touchstream.el script supposedly used for some extra shortcuts, but I have yet to try that out.
Personally, and obviously, I find the gestures and the ease of typing (easy on the fingers I mean) to far outweigh the $340 price tag ($40 for the tent stand, now included with LP). I do not usually lay down that much money for a gadget, but I had to try it, and as it was frequently mentioned, these things are hard to find for demo. Let's fix this by taking a chance and investing in one (no I do not work for Fingerworks). I would be very willing to let anyone in my area (waco, TX) demo the keyboard. If you are convinced on the gestures, but not on the typing, buy the gesture pad for $150 last I checked.
Great technology, and the price will drop when more people give it a chance.
The main problem with accuracy is the timing circuitry in the receiver. Most receivers now are accurate to a few nanoseconds, which happens to be the time it takes light (or GPS signals) about 1 foot, so 10-20 ft accuracy is typical (at least in my experience). Other than timing issues, atmospheric heating would cause inaccuracy.
The protocol of the satellites is hardly improvable, except maybe increasing the frequency of transmissions to more than 1 per second.
One possible issue could be the response of diode that produces the light. I would guess that since it's producing light of some form, there would have to be some sort of "warm-up" time, though it might be on the order of nanoseconds. This certainly would limit clock speeds on such a medium.
This probably is not comparable to the new athlons, but my duron ran for a while (perhaps an hour or so) without the heatsink fan, and it's fine. Of course the heatsink was scalding, and I let it cool for a long time, but it's still running strong.
At nearly twice the clock speed, those athlons could still run quite a bit hotter than my lowly duron, I suppose. I would still expect that a hardware monitor set for fan RPMs or processor temp would catch a failure in time. Don't set it on 149 deg. F. If it's above 125, something is wrong.
BTW, exactly what do you do to your computer that could detach the heatsink? Most heatsinks (unless you buy quality) can be a pain in the butt to detach even when you want to detach them.
It has been reported that bin laden never stays in one location more than a few days. He takes every precaution not to be found, because he knows as soon as we find him, he's toast.
My thoughts exactly. It's almost been said outright that this will bring more fear among American citizens. (did you hear bin laden's speech released today?)
I doubt anyone will live long enough to forget this, even those not born yet. It would be tragic if this were forgotten.
Seems all major army bases are closed. Fort Hood, TX holds the largest single-building military entity (3 corps) Let's hope these are the only attacks. If they've gone this far, they could easily go further.
Ok, last post; I'm getting sick of this. Where is all this proof that evolution took place? Sure, call me biased, but that's evading the argument.
DNA/Human genome proves evolution? How? Sure, living things adapt to their surroundings, that's been proven on a small scale, but where's the proof of adaptation into new species?
I'm not carrying this any further. Nothing I say will convince you of anything. I only ask you to fully examine the evidence supporting your beliefs. Personally, I find it weak and incomplete. You may find it "rock solid." Maybe I'm not seeing something you've read. Please feel free to email me your proof or even your criticisms.
well it would seem 1.0471698 is an adjustment factor (ie. the apparent pi=3 is actually pi=3*1.0471698=3.141509). Perhaps it was a smart Hebrew who came up with 111/106. If this was the meaning of the author and not just coincidence, the word for circumference could be translated "circumference divided by 1.0471698" which would give the accurate result.
Slashdot Mirror
(Trying not to be off-topic for this post, but...)
This is one of the things the Dvorak layout was made to exploit. For instance, (now is the time to look at a key chart) typing the word "month" on dvorak makes the "nth" basically one motion. The vowel combinations are this way as well. That "pipelining" is particularly good when the keys in the pipe are nearby on different fingers on the same hand. Qwerty does well at cross-hand patterns, but some of those can be vulnerable to miss-timing issues. (The first auto-correct entry is "teh"->"the").
They couldn't get them all, though, such as "gh" "ct" "rn" etc. but I guess those are statistically less frequent than the big ones: "th" "sh" "cr" and so on... I like the example word some Dvorak article used to show the difference. Excruciating. Type it in Qwerty, then go look it up on a dvorak. Not that we all type "excruciating" that often, but is a somewhat worst-case example.
Just more shameless advocacy of the Dvorak layout.
One line response: Biomechanics (esp. that of the hands) is not basic physics.
Well, the only way I can respond is to say that this is a case of instincts vs actual experience. Theory vs observation. "Think about it" vs "I have one sitting in front of me." I don't mean to ridicule or anything, but that is all I can say.
I have typed on most kinds of keyboards at some point -- mostly on those basic Dell keyboards. Now the only keyboards that come even close to the low-stress properties if the LP sitting in front of me are the laptop keyboards. Those keyboards are just soft enough to make your point somewhat accurate. But I only use those keyboards because I got tired of the hassle of moving the LP from computer to computer.
In order to type quickly, your fingers MUST move faster.
At some point, some speed threshold, this becomes true, but the brain has to be moving faster than the fingers for that to be the case. The average typer has fast fingers already, the only improvements come from faster reflex and thought, less idle time during typing. This is at least the case for me -- my hands and fingers have not yet been forced to resort to faster movement and harder impact to increase speed.
Now you could argue that I'm exaggerating the effect of these "impacts"
I can and I will, briefly. I wish I had some hard measurements rather than just emphatic assertion, but I can type just as fast on this without going nuts on the finger slamming enough to make the stress comparable to any other keyboard, even the laptop. The force is much less than someone audibly "thumping" their fingers on a desk, and I have never done this for long periods of time, but I imagine it wouldn't do any measurable damage, except for the eventual violent beating by anyone near me.
And I have to disagree on the statement that this "capacitance" keyboard (I have no good idea how the LP works) offers no cushion or impact absorbsion. It is padded slightly on the surface, on the bottom (soft rubber anti-slide surfaces), and on the metal tent frame (slight "give"). Sure it isn't nearly the energy-return of a spring-loaded key, but it is certainly softer than tapping on a thick metal plate or something equally rigid.
Of course, a capacitance user also has the extra work of lifting his fingers.
Now here you have a very good point, but my theory is that the natural "centered" position of the fingers maintained by muscle tension does most of the work. It is impossible to test for sure, but the only part of my hand that I feel the effort of lifting is my entire hand, at the wrist. The fingers feel relaxed even when they are suspended a cm above the surface. Of course, it is hard to "feel" things on a scale such as this -- maybe I am just used to it now.
The bottom line is that I agree that your ideas about the physics are correct, but they don't come into consideration for "normal" use. Now if you type like Jim Carrey (I've only seen the previews), perhaps a good spring keyboard is best, if just for the keyboard's sake.
Sarcasm or hasty ignorance? One can never tell these days.
Did you even visit the site? Or read the post?
..."
"... the fabled Linux based YOPY handheld has
This should be your first clue.
Perhaps we are talking about different keyboards. I can type faster with this than a mechanical, overall. I may burst-type faster on a mechanical keyboard, causing the strain you mentioned.
Send a link to something about these decades-old keyboards you're talking about, because I am confused. With a light touch, I can type fast enough to keep me happy. I have never had to use alot of force/downward speed with this, with nowhere near the impact force of a good forte strike of a piano key, regardless of the key moving or "cushioning".
Zero-force is a good thing by my estimation, but it would be foolish to think it is right for everyone. If you are curious about what it takes to type on these keyboards at a reasonable speed, perhaps you could print out the key layout and mock type -- not for accuracy, just speed. Only use a light tap then see how much additional speed a hard tap gives you.
The typing is certainly a drawback for a long time after getting the keyboard. But it is the gesturing that makes the ZF typing worth it for me. Except on the keyboards with that stupid eraser-J-key mouse peg thing, nothing lets you do all your mousing without removing your hand from the keyboard, even if you are left-handed. And I don't even have to reach to the side to hold the Shift/Ctrl/Alt keys when typing. There are so many more gestures, most of which are commonly used. The keyboards-of-old you mention may not have been worth it then, but they certainly are now.
Your Mileage May Vary, of course. Been a pleasure debating.
Your point #1 is good, except obviously in most local terminals where it doesn't apply.
In response to #2: On the Touchstream keyboard, dragging around 2 fingers on the right hand acts as the mouse cursor. However, dragging around 2 fingers on the left hand acts as the TEXT cursor. It takes some getting used to, but on a local terminal, it is very responsive and easy to control precisely.
Apart from the fact that I am an evil emacs user, this method seems easier than brain-mapping any set of keys to text cursor movement, unless a slow terminal makes it impossible to control or interpret key codes. Sure I still use n/p/f/b from time to time, but usually only for the Meta commands.
I share your frustrations learning to type on this thing. My advice is to "center" your hands before typing a sentence or whatever. You do this by putting all 5 fingers on each hand down at once, then you slide them around til they are all on the "braille" dots. Then you adjust your heals to where the fingers are comfortably angled. Then type away. If you make a bunch of typos, stop and recenter. It takes practice, but it does get better.
For me, the hardest thing is reaching the pinky keys (ie. P, or L in dvorak), but when I miss those keys, I recenter and angle my hands more inward.
This bit of bash is necessary for any Dvorak user.
Again, not to be confrontational, but your concept of what is necessary for typing "zero force" is off. There isn't massive acceleration when your finger hits the pad. This is not the same typing as with a mechanical keyboard, but with no springs. You bearly have to tap the keys on these keyboards.
The only added effort I can see is using the extensor muscles to hold your fingers above the keys when not typing, but in those instances, the keyboard lets you relax by putting ALL fingers down on the pad. This does not cause spurious keystrokes. Besides, put your heals on the desk with the fingers elevated and see how long it takes for your forearms to become the least bit fatigued. I am sure a physical therapist could recommend some exercises to do if your hands get tired immediately.
Really, the force required here is a fraction of that required for even the softest mechanical keyboard, and the impact stress is neglegable.
My advice, don't knock it til you try it. The force to overcome the springs and such is thousands of times more than simply RELAXING the finger and letting it drop onto the pad. Tap your fingers lightly on your desk. Chances are that is more than enough for this keyboard to respond. How can that be "more work" than pushing down a spring-loaded key? As far as the stress involved on the fingers/hands, I have played piano for 17 years, and that is infinitely more forceful than this keyboard, and I am perfectly fine (I think). Besides, I am not sure, but I think that this keyboard is still padded, at least on the bottom. If you really are pounding away at the force you imply, it should still cushion the force to some degree.
So try to find one to demo or buy one and try it, your assessment simply wrong.
Okay, from what I can gather, those who have one of these keyboards love it, but those who don't either are sceptical of the touch typing or wary of the price. This is what I expected when I submitted this.
By zero force, they mean that no movement is required on the part of the key, you need only touch the area on the touchpad. The only necessary force is that of gravity on your finger, since the sensor can "see" your finger even when it barely touches the pad. It is actually quite easy to use after a while, and the biggest obstacle is keeping the hands from drifting while typing. Using it without some sort of padding to elevate the heals of my hands is both painful and annoying since my hands tend to drift quite a bit otherwise. Touch typing is very possible, if the hands are kept stationary. In fact, I am forced to touch type since I got the Qwerty keyboard and type in dvorak, which most dvorak users will agree is commonplace.
Dvorak... This keyboard remaps its keys in the firmware. I don't use soft-dvorak because the extra keys (read about the programmers pad) would be un-mapped and wrong. I also very frequently revert back to Qwerty with only about 2-3 or sometimes 5 minutes of painful confusion, usually after not typing qwerty for a while. Actually, it is sometimes more painful reverting to mechanical keyboards, even those in dvorak, since my hands get so spoiled by the ZF typing.
Also, using emacs is surprisingly easy with the included gestures. Ctrl-x? easy, thumb and middle finger dragged together. Ctrl-s? thumb and first three fingers dragged together. Et cetera. Those and similar gestures are actually intended for cut, save, etc, but each gesture is mapped to a keystroke, so it can be used anywhere that keystroke is appropriate. Also, using two fingers on the left hand, you move the cursor around. They include a touchstream.el script supposedly used for some extra shortcuts, but I have yet to try that out.
Personally, and obviously, I find the gestures and the ease of typing (easy on the fingers I mean) to far outweigh the $340 price tag ($40 for the tent stand, now included with LP). I do not usually lay down that much money for a gadget, but I had to try it, and as it was frequently mentioned, these things are hard to find for demo. Let's fix this by taking a chance and investing in one (no I do not work for Fingerworks). I would be very willing to let anyone in my area (waco, TX) demo the keyboard. If you are convinced on the gestures, but not on the typing, buy the gesture pad for $150 last I checked.
Great technology, and the price will drop when more people give it a chance.
The main problem with accuracy is the timing circuitry in the receiver. Most receivers now are accurate to a few nanoseconds, which happens to be the time it takes light (or GPS signals) about 1 foot, so 10-20 ft accuracy is typical (at least in my experience). Other than timing issues, atmospheric heating would cause inaccuracy.
The protocol of the satellites is hardly improvable, except maybe increasing the frequency of transmissions to more than 1 per second.
I remember seeing one of these at a show about 12 years ago. Of course I was only allowed to get the little revolver version.
One possible issue could be the response of diode that produces the light. I would guess that since it's producing light of some form, there would have to be some sort of "warm-up" time, though it might be on the order of nanoseconds. This certainly would limit clock speeds on such a medium.
Anyone know about this?
This probably is not comparable to the new athlons, but my duron ran for a while (perhaps an hour or so) without the heatsink fan, and it's fine. Of course the heatsink was scalding, and I let it cool for a long time, but it's still running strong.
At nearly twice the clock speed, those athlons could still run quite a bit hotter than my lowly duron, I suppose. I would still expect that a hardware monitor set for fan RPMs or processor temp would catch a failure in time. Don't set it on 149 deg. F. If it's above 125, something is wrong.
BTW, exactly what do you do to your computer that could detach the heatsink? Most heatsinks (unless you buy quality) can be a pain in the butt to detach even when you want to detach them.
This is true. For years Garmin has had the NavTalk but it is primarily geared toward pilots, as were most of the early civilian GPS receivers.
It has been reported that bin laden never stays in one location more than a few days. He takes every precaution not to be found, because he knows as soon as we find him, he's toast.
You tell me who's afraid.
My thoughts exactly. It's almost been said outright that this will bring more fear among American citizens. (did you hear bin laden's speech released today?)
I doubt anyone will live long enough to forget this, even those not born yet. It would be tragic if this were forgotten.
Seems all major army bases are closed. Fort Hood, TX holds the largest single-building military entity (3 corps) Let's hope these are the only attacks. If they've gone this far, they could easily go further.
personally, i use the printer method.
ps printer->ps file->ghostscript(w/ghostview)
A little roundabout, but free.
It doesn't affect the reader, just the high-dollar Acrobat, so how many people will this really affect?
some slight problems with the bouncing (sometimes in the wrong direction), or was that part of the original?
Ok, last post; I'm getting sick of this. Where is all this proof that evolution took place? Sure, call me biased, but that's evading the argument.
DNA/Human genome proves evolution? How? Sure, living things adapt to their surroundings, that's been proven on a small scale, but where's the proof of adaptation into new species?
I'm not carrying this any further. Nothing I say will convince you of anything. I only ask you to fully examine the evidence supporting your beliefs. Personally, I find it weak and incomplete. You may find it "rock solid." Maybe I'm not seeing something you've read. Please feel free to email me your proof or even your criticisms.
well it would seem 1.0471698 is an adjustment factor (ie. the apparent pi=3 is actually pi=3*1.0471698=3.141509). Perhaps it was a smart Hebrew who came up with 111/106. If this was the meaning of the author and not just coincidence, the word for circumference could be translated "circumference divided by 1.0471698" which would give the accurate result.
Ok that's the end of my 2 cents.