Liteon and high quality? Someone's been smoking some seriously good shit.
Here, let me enlighten you. Liteon drives have some of the HIGHEST C1/C2 error rates in the business, they have horrible track wobble.... they're in general pieces of shit. Here's a nice documentation of it, Dont mind the French, the graphs are all that matter. And note that those tests were perfomed using both the best consumer CDR media in existance (Taiyo Yuden) and some average consumer grade stuff, the TDK discs.
Not to mention sudden Liteon death syndrome.... I owned 2 liteon drives, the DVD drive stopped being able to read dual layer discs after about 6 months, the CDRW drive produced discs that were damn unreadable in the same time period.
No, no, and no. Windows XP is Windows NT 5.1, not OS/2 5.1. Read some of the comments above if you need a bit more proof. Windows NT was written from scratch, by a guy who worked on VMS, so it's close to VMS by design. It has an OS/2 emulation layer, which is where people get that stupid idea that NT is a fork of OS/2. It isnt, stop propigating that damn stupid meme, or shall we all start calling Linux a fork of Minix, because one shares a few design concepts with another?
Yup another strike against the article. There's another one, the XP4 T1 (or similar) that is coming out LATER for mobile computing. This is the desktop chip, which I believe is called the T2.
nVidia has all the OEM's wrapped around their little finger these days. Try to show me a Dell, Gateway, or HP with Trident video, everyone I've seen has Intel Extreme (belch) or more likely a GF4 MX (yuck).
ATI's been getting quite a few of them back though with the 9000s being cheaper than a GF4MX and performing much better in comparison. But Trident doesnt have a market anymore. They had a laptop one up til the mobile GF4s and Radeons, but they dont even have that anymore.
Re:Meanwhile, back in Denmark...
on
Trident XP4 Reviewed
·
· Score: 4, Interesting
Dated August 2002. And the word Preview, right in the title bar.
Granted 1600x1200 wasnt fair either, but this isnt a notebook chip, its a desktop chip (unlike what other poster said). And its intended to compete with the likes of the GF4 and Radeon cards.
The 9000 128 MB cards go for $100 street price these days, and the Ti4200s are only $20 more. The 9500 Pro is a prerelease part, MSRP of $199 less a $20 Mail-in rebate (street should hit $150 within 2 weeks I'd gather).
The Trident card just sucked.... Trident talked some nice trash before release, just like Matrox with the Parhelia.
You have _GOT_ to be kidding...... First off nVidia is Microsoft's bitch, they dont do SHIT from within Linux, I hate to break that to you. MS and nV work on DirectX together....
Second off, the reason nVidia doesnt GPL it is because obviously the drivers reveal QUITE A BIT about the hardware they're designed for, which allows ANYONE, ATI, Matrox, 3DLabs, anyone, to find out exactly how an nVidia card works. And I'm willing to bet that a large amount of that information is TRADE SECRET, if it gets out, everyone knows how their nice 4:1 lossless compression works, and everyone steals it. ATI does the exact same thing to their drivers.
Stealing code isnt even an issue, there is probably ZERO duplicated code between a Detonator and a Catalyst.
Except the XBox doesnt have a GeForce 4, it has a modified nForce chipset with an NV20 video, middle ground between a GF2 and a GF3. And I still beg to differ on that.
Cheapo case - $20 DVD drive - $30 10 GB HDD - $70 Integrated nForce Mobo - 80 AMD Duron 900 (cheapest thing I can get right now) - 35 64 MB PC100 - 21 Total - 250.
And MS can just buy the chips themselves and slap them all on the mobo, the RAM on the XBox definately isnt in the usual RAM stick configurations, and get it cheaper. I'd guess that an XBox board would cost around $30 to produce for MS, the chip probably costs them another 30 (Intel isnt cheap), and all the various chips (SDRAM, Modem, NTSC out) cost about $20 each. I dont think MS is really losing money anymore on that thing, they certainly were a few months ago, but the stuff in it is so trivial for nV and Intel to make that there's no way they're paying full price anymore.
What exactly do you think a FLoating OPeration is? The P4 sucks ass doing float ops. Shall we compare IntOps between the machines? Cause a P4 slaughters a G4 at integer operations. Differences between the architectures. Multimedia stuff that Apple eats up is usually Floating Point. Office related stuff that the x86 architecture was made to please does really well on ints, but sucks eggs on floats.
I use both machines myself, all art work and encoding is done on my G4, everything else is done on my Athlon.
Pipeline length has absolutely NOTHING to do with what the machine can do per clock. Thats dependant on the number of execution units, which the G4 has more units than the P4 does (not to mention the P4 can only take 1 x86 instruction per clock, which can be traced back to up to 3 uops, whereas the G4 can take 3 PowerPC instructions in per clock AFAIK).
Pipeline doesnt have anything to do with the amount of stuff a CPU can do in one clock though. The PowerPC970, IBM's little dream chip they're making, has 18 pipeline stages, but it can still take in 5 POWER instructions per clock, so it whips the hell out of Intel's P4 and is right up there with the predicted numbers for the Itanium 2.
As for Altivec.... Define "plain C code". Altivec helps exactly nil for Integer operations, so unless you get floats involved, its not going to speed up ANYTHING.
The next version of firewire on the horizon will only be able to do 100Megabytes/sec (800Megabits/sec). Wrong. Source
IEEE 1394b allows extensions to 800Mbit/sec., 1.6Gbit/sec. and 3.2Gbit/sec., all over copper wire. It supports long-distance transfers to 100 meters over a variety of media: CAT-5 unshielded cable at 100Mbit/sec., existing plastic optical fiber at 200Mbits/sec., next-generation plastic optical fiber at 400Mbit/sec. and 50-micron mulitmode glass optical fiber at up to 3.2Gbit/sec. The improved speed and distance capabilities of 1394b result from two major improvements: overlapped arbitration and advanced data encoding.
The next gen can do over 320 MB/sec, even accounting for serial transfer overhead.
Microsoft will already have at least 2 more X-Box upgrades on the shelves by then.... virtually guaranteeing it will dominate over the outdated PS2
Consoles dont work like that. The SNES had about a 7 year long run, the Original Playstation had about 6 years. You dont upgrade consoles every year like MS would like, people wont blow $300 every 18 months on a console when their old one still works fine.
MS _WONT_ be releasing upgrades for the XBox til the next line of console upgrades in 2005, and thats if they want to seriously piss off their customers, because that would be about 4 years with their console.
MS Office X isnt a bundle, so using it as an example isnt even relevent. Its an old CFM app, an OS 9 app. And if MS had a brain there, it would have stuck the registration information in the/Library/Preferences directory and hidden it. But MS made installation a little too easy, and stuck their registration information in the Office folder, so you could drag and drop the folder.
And while you may consider that a disadvantage that you cant move apps around, I consider it a huge advantage. Say I want to rearrange my OS X box's/Applications folder, I create new folders there, drop the apps in, and all of them work. On Windows, update registry hell. On Linux, find conf files, edit them, if you can.
And the Installer systems exist for programs that need to stick crap in Systemland, such as configs in the/Library rather in the ~/Library. They dont exist for any other reason. If you want an EULA, make your App display it on first run like what Blizzard does with its games, or make the App Bundle on a disc image with an agreement, which is what most X downloaded programs are.
Please remember, Apple wrote all the drivers for ATI's cards that came with their machines. They all worked flawlessly, not like the driver hell on Windows. With the NV cards they kind of took a bit of help from NVidia, and the drivers are DEFINATELY inferior to the old ones powering my G4 with a Radeon.
Plug in a 2 button mouse. Problem solved. Jeeze even in OS 9 it will play nice with a 2 button USB mouse. Last time I checked Apple's own stores sold mice for people who didnt like one button, but there is rarely a need for the second button in Apple's UI (coming from someone using an MS Intellimouse Optical on a G4, seems like sacrilage but its a nice mouse).
Can we beat the mouse issue into the ground a bit more? Dont like one button? Use a real mouse. Most Apple users couldnt care less about their single button mouse.
I beg to differ. The last Powerbook to have ADB on board was the Powerbook G3 Wallstreet, which was in '98, right when Apple went to the iMac and the Blue G3's. Everything since then has had USB on it, the Lombards, Pismos, and the TiBooks. And thats about 3 years of computers.
Apple threw ADB away, they dont still use it. And as for Linux, LinuxPPC works great on my old Wallstreet, not a problem with it, and my 2 button Macally ADB mouse is perfectly supported (as well as my USB Cardbus card to plug in my real mouse, the Macally one is a piece)
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Liteon and high quality? Someone's been smoking some seriously good shit.
Here, let me enlighten you. Liteon drives have some of the HIGHEST C1/C2 error rates in the business, they have horrible track wobble.... they're in general pieces of shit. Here's a nice documentation of it, Dont mind the French, the graphs are all that matter. And note that those tests were perfomed using both the best consumer CDR media in existance (Taiyo Yuden) and some average consumer grade stuff, the TDK discs.
Not to mention sudden Liteon death syndrome.... I owned 2 liteon drives, the DVD drive stopped being able to read dual layer discs after about 6 months, the CDRW drive produced discs that were damn unreadable in the same time period.
No, no, and no. Windows XP is Windows NT 5.1, not OS/2 5.1. Read some of the comments above if you need a bit more proof. Windows NT was written from scratch, by a guy who worked on VMS, so it's close to VMS by design. It has an OS/2 emulation layer, which is where people get that stupid idea that NT is a fork of OS/2. It isnt, stop propigating that damn stupid meme, or shall we all start calling Linux a fork of Minix, because one shares a few design concepts with another?
Yup another strike against the article. There's another one, the XP4 T1 (or similar) that is coming out LATER for mobile computing. This is the desktop chip, which I believe is called the T2.
Take a look at the testing environment page.
Radeon 9000 Pro, 128 MB, $99
Laughing to the bank with that there? Or how about this: GF4 Ti4200 64 MB for $127
Laughing all the way into Bankruptcy is more like it.
*Note: I dont work for newegg, I just buy everything there
nVidia has all the OEM's wrapped around their little finger these days. Try to show me a Dell, Gateway, or HP with Trident video, everyone I've seen has Intel Extreme (belch) or more likely a GF4 MX (yuck).
ATI's been getting quite a few of them back though with the 9000s being cheaper than a GF4MX and performing much better in comparison. But Trident doesnt have a market anymore. They had a laptop one up til the mobile GF4s and Radeons, but they dont even have that anymore.
Dated August 2002. And the word Preview, right in the title bar.
Granted 1600x1200 wasnt fair either, but this isnt a notebook chip, its a desktop chip (unlike what other poster said). And its intended to compete with the likes of the GF4 and Radeon cards.
The 9000 128 MB cards go for $100 street price these days, and the Ti4200s are only $20 more. The 9500 Pro is a prerelease part, MSRP of $199 less a $20 Mail-in rebate (street should hit $150 within 2 weeks I'd gather).
The Trident card just sucked.... Trident talked some nice trash before release, just like Matrox with the Parhelia.
1) Firewire 2 (1394b) is 3.2 Gbps, which is about 320 MB/sec accounting for 10b8 encoding on the line.
2) agreed.
*doh* Mod me down. He just started talking about their Linux farm for simulations
So to demonstrate how nVidia isnt microsofts bitch, you link to a Windows Media video about their Sun Servers? Huh?
Take a search on /. about Cg, nV's pixel language. They lobbied MS pretty hard to get it into DirectX9 (I dont think it ever wound up in there though).
You have _GOT_ to be kidding...... First off nVidia is Microsoft's bitch, they dont do SHIT from within Linux, I hate to break that to you. MS and nV work on DirectX together....
Second off, the reason nVidia doesnt GPL it is because obviously the drivers reveal QUITE A BIT about the hardware they're designed for, which allows ANYONE, ATI, Matrox, 3DLabs, anyone, to find out exactly how an nVidia card works. And I'm willing to bet that a large amount of that information is TRADE SECRET, if it gets out, everyone knows how their nice 4:1 lossless compression works, and everyone steals it. ATI does the exact same thing to their drivers.
Stealing code isnt even an issue, there is probably ZERO duplicated code between a Detonator and a Catalyst.
Except the XBox doesnt have a GeForce 4, it has a modified nForce chipset with an NV20 video, middle ground between a GF2 and a GF3. And I still beg to differ on that.
Cheapo case - $20
DVD drive - $30
10 GB HDD - $70
Integrated nForce Mobo - 80
AMD Duron 900 (cheapest thing I can get right now) - 35
64 MB PC100 - 21
Total - 250.
And MS can just buy the chips themselves and slap them all on the mobo, the RAM on the XBox definately isnt in the usual RAM stick configurations, and get it cheaper. I'd guess that an XBox board would cost around $30 to produce for MS, the chip probably costs them another 30 (Intel isnt cheap), and all the various chips (SDRAM, Modem, NTSC out) cost about $20 each. I dont think MS is really losing money anymore on that thing, they certainly were a few months ago, but the stuff in it is so trivial for nV and Intel to make that there's no way they're paying full price anymore.
What exactly do you think a FLoating OPeration is? The P4 sucks ass doing float ops. Shall we compare IntOps between the machines? Cause a P4 slaughters a G4 at integer operations. Differences between the architectures. Multimedia stuff that Apple eats up is usually Floating Point. Office related stuff that the x86 architecture was made to please does really well on ints, but sucks eggs on floats.
I use both machines myself, all art work and encoding is done on my G4, everything else is done on my Athlon.
Pipeline length has absolutely NOTHING to do with what the machine can do per clock. Thats dependant on the number of execution units, which the G4 has more units than the P4 does (not to mention the P4 can only take 1 x86 instruction per clock, which can be traced back to up to 3 uops, whereas the G4 can take 3 PowerPC instructions in per clock AFAIK).
Pipeline doesnt have anything to do with the amount of stuff a CPU can do in one clock though. The PowerPC970, IBM's little dream chip they're making, has 18 pipeline stages, but it can still take in 5 POWER instructions per clock, so it whips the hell out of Intel's P4 and is right up there with the predicted numbers for the Itanium 2.
As for Altivec.... Define "plain C code". Altivec helps exactly nil for Integer operations, so unless you get floats involved, its not going to speed up ANYTHING.
The next version of firewire on the horizon will only be able to do 100Megabytes/sec (800Megabits/sec).
Wrong.
Source
IEEE 1394b allows extensions to 800Mbit/sec., 1.6Gbit/sec. and 3.2Gbit/sec., all over copper wire. It supports long-distance transfers to 100 meters over a variety of media: CAT-5 unshielded cable at 100Mbit/sec., existing plastic optical fiber at 200Mbits/sec., next-generation plastic optical fiber at 400Mbit/sec. and 50-micron mulitmode glass optical fiber at up to 3.2Gbit/sec. The improved speed and distance capabilities of 1394b result from two major improvements: overlapped arbitration and advanced data encoding.
The next gen can do over 320 MB/sec, even accounting for serial transfer overhead.
Microsoft will already have at least 2 more X-Box upgrades on the shelves by then.... virtually guaranteeing it will dominate over the outdated PS2
Consoles dont work like that. The SNES had about a 7 year long run, the Original Playstation had about 6 years. You dont upgrade consoles every year like MS would like, people wont blow $300 every 18 months on a console when their old one still works fine.
MS _WONT_ be releasing upgrades for the XBox til the next line of console upgrades in 2005, and thats if they want to seriously piss off their customers, because that would be about 4 years with their console.
MS Office X isnt a bundle, so using it as an example isnt even relevent. Its an old CFM app, an OS 9 app. And if MS had a brain there, it would have stuck the registration information in the /Library/Preferences directory and hidden it. But MS made installation a little too easy, and stuck their registration information in the Office folder, so you could drag and drop the folder.
/Applications folder, I create new folders there, drop the apps in, and all of them work. On Windows, update registry hell. On Linux, find conf files, edit them, if you can.
/Library rather in the ~/Library. They dont exist for any other reason. If you want an EULA, make your App display it on first run like what Blizzard does with its games, or make the App Bundle on a disc image with an agreement, which is what most X downloaded programs are.
And while you may consider that a disadvantage that you cant move apps around, I consider it a huge advantage. Say I want to rearrange my OS X box's
And the Installer systems exist for programs that need to stick crap in Systemland, such as configs in the
Please remember, Apple wrote all the drivers for ATI's cards that came with their machines. They all worked flawlessly, not like the driver hell on Windows. With the NV cards they kind of took a bit of help from NVidia, and the drivers are DEFINATELY inferior to the old ones powering my G4 with a Radeon.
Plug in a 2 button mouse. Problem solved. Jeeze even in OS 9 it will play nice with a 2 button USB mouse. Last time I checked Apple's own stores sold mice for people who didnt like one button, but there is rarely a need for the second button in Apple's UI (coming from someone using an MS Intellimouse Optical on a G4, seems like sacrilage but its a nice mouse).
Can we beat the mouse issue into the ground a bit more? Dont like one button? Use a real mouse. Most Apple users couldnt care less about their single button mouse.
Yeah bad policy, self moderation, kill me please. I forgot about interals for the Laptops, where ADB is indeed still used.
Anyone have a wager on how long it takes Apple to ditch ADB there?
I beg to differ. The last Powerbook to have ADB on board was the Powerbook G3 Wallstreet, which was in '98, right when Apple went to the iMac and the Blue G3's. Everything since then has had USB on it, the Lombards, Pismos, and the TiBooks. And thats about 3 years of computers.
Apple threw ADB away, they dont still use it. And as for Linux, LinuxPPC works great on my old Wallstreet, not a problem with it, and my 2 button Macally ADB mouse is perfectly supported (as well as my USB Cardbus card to plug in my real mouse, the Macally one is a piece)