Apple Gives Laptops Speed Bumps

sockit2me9000 writes "Apple released their new PowerBook today. They include faster processors across the board (up to 1GHz), Radeon 9000 GPUs, and the top-of-the-line model will include a slot-loading SuperDrive. Price points remain about the same. New iBook was released as well."

Comments

This is great!!

[Stefman]

It was a lot more than what the rumor sites were predicting!

Re:This is great!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed, but for us Europeans, they have not realized that now $1 is very close to 1. I expected Apple to put roughly the same pre-tax cost on both sides of the pond. No way, it's about 10% more. To the point that it may be worth a trip to NYC to buy a fully loaded PowerBook.

Re:This is great!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually...

MacRumors.com accurately reported on these updates: Powerbook/iBook Specs Roundup.

Very Likely
Powerbook 800Mhz-1GHz with Superdrive
iBook G3 up to 800MHz

Probable
November 5th, 2002 Release Date

Possible
Bluetooth

Uncertain
13" iBook Screens
Radeon Mobility 9000


Overall, they do a pretty good job collecting and sifting through the rumors.

Re:This is great!!

[simong_oz]

yeh, not to mention that the bottom of the range laptop costs $999 in the US and £849 in the UK (more than US$1300).

Re:This is great!!

[Hater's Leaving, The]

Sorry to be thick, but that means that it's cheaper for Limeys to head off to France, say, to buy their Mac stuff, as it's only 10% over the US price rather than 30%?

(A trip UKFr is still dirt cheap, IIRC)

Sounds good for the Eurozone if people catch on to that. Remember to buy 12 bottles of LBV and a couple of crates of Champagne too while you're there.

THL.

Re:This is great!!

[simong_oz]

I just did the maths for the top-of-the-range powerbook and it's even worse; almost 25% cheaper.

Powerbook 'Fastest'
US = $2999
UK = £2449 (~US$3900)
[prices from Apple online store]

Re:This is great!!

[Halo1]

Don't forget that (almost?) all European countries charge quite a bit of VAT (all that healthcare etc doesn't come for free!) In Belgium that's 20.5% on luxury items (which includes electronic products), I guess it's similar in other EU countries.

Re:This is great!!

[Hater's Leaving, The]

Quelle domage.

Actually in Calais, Bordeaux, and their immediate hinterlands, everyone speaks English. They know that numbnut Brits will come over not knowning much French, and it's just so much easier for transactions to be performed in English rather than their native French.

However, if you want to be served by far more polite natives, then head over to Amsterdam rather than Calais. The Dutch on the whole all speak far better English that the French, and the environs is far more enjoyable. IMHO.
Add to that the fact that Amsterdam trips are similarly cheap, barely more than ones to France if you're prepared to rough it a bit (the 20 hour coach trips, for example).

Remember to come back though!

THL.

Re:This is great!!

[Anonymous Coward]

You realize off course that you are supposed to pay import taxes and VAT when you bring it back. These easily run far over 10%. You can probably get out of the VAT taxes though if you make a good case to the customs officer you need it for educational purposes or just not tell anybody you bought it in your trip, which actually would be illegal.

Re:This is great!!

[Anonymous Coward]

A lot of the difference is tax. I am guessing the US prices exclude sales tax. The £849 includes the hefty 17.5% value added tax. The pre-taxed price (UK) is £723 (approx. $1120).

Re:This is great!!

[borism]

Where exactly does the price difference come from?

Re:This is great!!

[Anonymous Coward]

In the U.K. most prices on big ticket items "include VAT". I would assume the same elsewhere as well.

Re:This is great!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, computer resellers are used to higher margin in this part of the world.
On the top of that you have transportation cost and the stupid VAT from 12% in Luxembourg to 25% in Sweden.(Good healthcare do).

Re:This is great!!

[Midnight Thunder]

Trash the box, and any other cardboard you don't need. Post the necessary documents, if you are really paranoid. And when at customs don't say anything if they don't ask. After all are you going to say anything if you had that computer for more an than a few months?

Re:This is great!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple also doesn't have the "double-up" offer on RAM covering iBooks in Europe...

Re:This is great!!

[Tug3]

Yes, buying one from US & then bringing it back without paying the taxes would be illegel - but the risk of getting cought is close to 0.

I fly with my TiBook quite frequently and never has been asked to prove the computer was bought back home and not from the trip. I mean everyone is flying with a laptop nowadays! Of course if you have the laptop packed in original box, instead of your backpack or whatever, they could become interested. But you propably wouldn't be allowed to take the box with you as handluggage anyway. And I wouldn't put my TiBook into the chargo bay...

So the bottom line is: If you can live with the heavy burden of this crime haunting you for the rest of your life, you'll propably get away with it...

Of course I would never do such a thing! And shame on you, if you would either! (Just to point out that I'm not encouraging you to commit tax fraud...)

Re:This is great!!

[jtrascap]

Ah...save your cabfare.

I'm transplanted from Denver to Hilversum, 1/2 hour south of Amsterdam, and here's the scoop - you're better off grabbing a cheap fare to the US than buying it here.

Buy an iBook with a combo drive and you're set back 1783 Euros. Worse than that, you get into all the Internation English issues with software upgrades and you get a funky keyboard (half-sized left shift key and a misplaced tilde key - fortunately not as bad a thing as a french keyboard though...)

Now - head over to NY for a weekend holiday, have MacWarehouse ship you the same box with out tax and probably something free too, for likely under $1300. Average holiday covers part of the costs of the purchase. Then you can go nuts accessory-shopping at J&R, Tekserve and CompUSA. (I got a nifty firewire case for a loose laptop drive = $60. It's 3-times that in Holland!

If you can find it.

Basically - you're screwed for taxes here. You'll also have to convince the happy people at the airport to not tax you 35% when you re-enter the country too, but there are ways around that (ship the packing and boxes over, then wander towards past the customs people looking like a lost American tourist on vacation...it works!)

Apple's have universal power adaptors and worldwide warranties on the laptops, so if you have vacation days and cash to spend, do it in New York!

- Jim

If you're American goin' into the bathroom and American comin' outta that bathroom, what are you when you're in it? Yoor-o-pee'n!
- spiffy quotes 'r' us

Re:This is great!!

[Anonymous Coward]

$999 is before tax, EU has like 18% VAT on electronics no ???

Re:This is great!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, maybe because Apple is not a European company? They don't have to?

Re:This is great!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Just to mention:
Tax fraud is not a crime.
Demostration:
A crime is to act against a law
a law is a rule that is equal for all
tax payment can be negotiated for high frauds and not for the small
so tax laws are not equal for all
therfore
tax laws are not laws
and this implies that tax fraud is not a crime

Re:This is great!!

[Hater's Leaving, The]

The original question was "where should someone in the UK get one, given the £/$ price disparity?", so there will be no tax issues as you "re-enter the country".

However, I looked at apple.fr, apple.nl, apple.co.uk, apple.it etc. (every code I could think of) and the Euro/$ disparity is _nearly_ as bad as the UKs £/$ disparity, so most of Europe is basially all in the same basket. However, I think that the UK was at the top (bottom) of the heap.

It's not just Apple though, if anything some of their prices are fairer than some of the bigname PC vendors (Dell etc.).

THL.

It's expensive, but ....

[vasqzr]

Honestly, no PC-based laptop can compete. Size, battery life, specs other than CPU speed....style

Now, if they'd put a serial port on the back, it comes with a UNIX-based doesn't it?!

Maybe a USB-serial converter would work. Can you say console access?

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[Colomb]

Nice to see the prices on the iBooks come down a little too. $999 starting isn't bad at all. now I'm seriously considering that 14.1' iBook....then again,, the TiBooks are hard to pass up too...

Alex

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[nattt]

A USB to Serial converter works great in Linux, but I've yet had the chance to use it with OS X.

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[krray]

Yes, keyspan's usb/serial converters work just fine with OS X. Though I'm finding less and less use for serial (any platform) more and more. Only use anymore is legacy equipment...

Under-powered CPU's? IMHO a 1Ghz G4 is about the same as a 4Ghz P4 in speed. Remember the pipeline in the G4 _is_ shorter (faster answers to questions if you will) and instead of being just a 32bit core like intel/amd it has 4 32bit pathways into the 128bit core. MUCH faster. Rather like 4 CPU's in 1 (though not even CLOSE technically :). MHz myth and all that...there is truth.

The OS is $129. Sure beats $300+ for Windows.

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[Anonymous Coward]

"IMHO a 1Ghz G4 is about the same as a 4Ghz P4 in speed"

What have opinions got to do with it. People always mention pipelines, but for the money the Intel chip is always faster.

"The OS is $129. Sure beats $300+ for Windows."

So why not buy a cheaper PC (yes, even with Windows thrown in) and install OsX over the top?

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[timeOday]

Slower speed automatically gives you longer battery life and smaller size (the battery is the largest single component except maybe the screen).

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[strictnein]

IMHO a 1Ghz G4 is about the same as a 4Ghz P4 in speed.

lol

come on now, that's just silly and you know it. the length of pipeline does not a processor make (or some stupid thing like that)

IMHO I am the sexiest man alive. But, in reality, it seems that most (all?) women don't agree.

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[Alan Partridge]

"So why not buy a cheaper PC (yes, even with Windows thrown in) and install OsX over the top?"

because that would be impossible?

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[cosmo7]

So why not buy a cheaper PC (yes, even with Windows thrown in) and install OsX over the top?

and then fly around on your anti-grav jetbike.

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[Anonymous Coward]

14.1 foot? wow. You're damn right a 14.1 foot ibook would be hard to pass up..

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[ninthwave]

Ok again running a 400mhz imac with Seti
and a 800mhz AMD with Seti the iMac complete data blocks faster than the AMD machine 3 to 1. So what do people mean by faster. Clock cycles. Well if you do less in that clock cycle how can you say that is faster.

If you can get a test between the two platforms that can give you an accurate figure we can get away from opinions but it is an opinion thing at this point. The above example was the only thing I needed to see to convince me, but then I have never been a mhz junkie. I have an Amd 350 with scsi drives and it does what I need it to do well.

But I don't trash macs on a speed rating that does translate into anything meaningful in performance.

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[Mocenigo]

Honestly, no PC-based laptop can compete. Size, battery life, specs other than CPU speed....style

And don't forget that it has only one mouse (ehr, pad) button! shame! shame! Apple will never learn. And I want 2Ghz, even if battery lasts only 30 minutes. I do not need to get work done, I only want to brag! (wink, wink, lotta smileys ;-) ;-)

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[Anonymous Coward]

1 GHz G4 == 4GHz P4 riiight

The pipeline of the G4 is shorter so the G4 is faster??? Based on what? What's the throughput? What's the CPI?

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[Anonymous Coward]

Never mind Mhz, clock cycles and all that. Which is faster for the money? Faster as in `how long does it take to compile my program/render this image/transform this sample` etc. Thats what I use my computers for, not measuring clock cycles or running benchmark programs.

"I have an Amd 350 with scsi drives and it does what I need it to do well."

I have an AMD 300 with IDE drives! Ditto! I just think Apples are expensive - too expensive - its an OS thing, not a hardware thing. You can't really perform comparisons because the software I want isn't available on a Mac. I`d get a Mac if you could run Windows stuff on it, and if it were cheaper or more powerful, but that just isn't the case.

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[Hater's Leaving, The]

"1Ghz G4 is about the same as a 4Ghz P4 in speed"

You certainly can't prove that using the stats on this page:
http://www.spec.org/osg/cpu2000/results/cpu 2000.ht ml

What are Apple afraid of?

THL.

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[otis wildflower]

how about a bluetooth serial dongle?

Not sure if it's supported in OS X, but it is in linux...

And I'm sure there's a serial/usb converter that works, even if it's din-8 (as Apples were)..

BTW, anyone try consoling into a modern SPARC with USB ports, or are they only for peripherals?

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[ninthwave]

I will agree with the software availablity issue and expense of software in the Apple world though my audio editting software comparissions in studios with pcs and macs say it is worth the money for performance in that field, digital professional audio. In the studio I sit in front of macs at home I have my machine tweaked out to work though editting some effects takes ages on a PC. That is just the maths involved and how the processor handles them. But my money on the subject was in the AMD K6 days, I don't need faster cpu's the money for me is better spent in sound cards.

But then again the original beige G3 has the performance and a good price these days. We both are talking about owning and getting use from older machines. So value $ of our machines versus older Macs against performance also.

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[Mononoke]

Less wattage wasted by the CPU in the generation of heat gives you longer battery life also.

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[salimma]

I had to use a USB-to-serial converter with my iBook last time to use an external modem with Linux. Yes, the internal modem is now some sort of USB device that would not work under Linux :(

Under Darwin you get a binary modem driver.

Any supported USB-to-serial device listed here should work under Linux. The funny thing is most of them would still not work under Mac OS X - as they say, in MacOS your device either works out of the box or not at all..

Sold that iBook in the end, I need vector-based computation muscle for my ... err... video transcoding :p Neat machine though.

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[pauljlucas]

Maybe a USB-serial converter would work.

They do work. Try Keyspan.

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah HA!!! Your new series is on tv next Monday, but I have to say that, from watching the trailers, you do seem to have let yourself go a little!

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[jonnythan]

So take a mobile P4 2.4GHz, downclock it to 1 GHz, and it's probably using less wattage than that 800 MHz G3.

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[Moloch666]

Probably slower too.

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[Mononoke]

So take a mobile P4 2.4GHz, downclock it to 1 GHz, and it's probably using less wattage than that 800 MHz G3.

And even the SteveJobsHaters[TM] will admit that an 800 MHz G3 gets the work done faster than a 1000 MHz P4.

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[Draoi]

Some of them definitely work - the question comes up on the darwin-developers list regularly. There's a /dev entry for serial devices & also the XServe has a fully-working serial port on the back of the machine. So yeah, MacOS X natively supports serial ....

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[strawdog]

rofl

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not my fault if they`ve made it hard to click `Compile for X86` and `go`! What, exactly, does their OS require which makes it so hard to port to other hardware - unlike all the other squillions of OS's which work fine on a multitude of hardware?

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree, sugar.

Love,
Rocko Liberace III

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[terminal.dk]

Their OS requires drivers for the new hardware, and they don't like to offer people the driver chaos/hell that they have in Windows.

Unoike MS, I am pretty sure Apple has the guts to go out and tell people not to buy specific hardware if it gives trouble.

And, supporting the wide variety of Intel hardware will cost a shitload of money for Apple. If you want MacOS X, why not just buy the hardware it runs on ? People buys the better hardware when they want a decent MP3 player.

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[Skuld-Chan]

You know my Toshiba 486 Laptop I bought at a PC thrift store (came with a new battery all for 5$) will last 4 hours with the hard drive constantly reading/writing and last over 8 with the drive spinned down.

Toshiba T4600...

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[patrick0brien]

The wattage of the G3 is going to be hard to beat.

Remember, this chip is the same thing in the desktop models,
and still consumes only about 10w on the high side.

This is why you get those 6+ battery hours out of the iBooks,
and why the last generation of G3-based CRT iMacs had no fans.

I think I read somewhere that the desktop P4 is something like 75+ watts.
This is why Intel needs to reengineer for the notebooks.
That and I personally don't like catching my pant on fire :)

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[MoneyT]

Hmmm, who's condecending? Anyways to avoid that argument.

1) When it comes to comparing features on laptops, for equivilently equipped laptops mac's are highly competative. Do some research, go price out laptops with the type of features that you get on the macs. Espesialy the iBooks, there is almost nothing in the PC market that comes close.

2) Battery life. Apple says 5 hours, and like every laptop battery life, that's projected. But I can tell you that my iBook always gets 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 hours of battery life, depending on what I'm doing. The G4s that are there have the capability to play through (and I've seen this done) roughly 1 and a half 2 hour DVD movies. No PC comes close. The best powered PC laptop I've seen in that price range gets 2 1/2 to 3 hours of battery.

3) Wieght. Unless you buy an ultralight laptop (www.dynamism.com) the macs win hands down.

4) Screen, just put a PC and a mac laptop side by side, and unless the PC is a sony, chances are you will like the mac screen better. And since the screen is by far one of the most expesnive components of a laptop, it's no suprise that the mac will cost a bit more.

5) I see nothing unprofessional looking about the mac laptops at all. Yes the colored ones of yester year were odd, but the new ones look just fine.

6) Fine you have a serial port, I don't need one

7) Power. Raw CPU power does not nessesarily make a good laptop. I don't want a multi Ghz laptop yet, the heat, and the battery hit would be astronomical. 1 ghz more than covers what I would need out of a laptop.

8) Maybe one day your OS will run on PPC, then we can really compare Apples to Apples. Then again, no one would buy it.

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[4of12]

Looks intriguing to me.

I'm a Linux user generally and figured to the cheap route of some x86 laptop.

But considering

1. the hassles of WinModems and XFree86 for laptop screens under Linux,
2. that OS 10.2 will run MS Office natively,
3. that it's still really a UNIX under the covers
4. and that it's cool looking and not too heavy

I'm thinking this might be a better way to go.

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[jonadab]

If G3s perform so doggone well, how come the performance on year-old
iMac G3 systems is so lousy? Is it the lack of RAM, the OS, or what?
Because the indigo iMac out behind the circ desk (G3/400, OS9.1)
performs a great deal worse than my PII/233 at home, which I bought
back in 1998 (though admittedly I added RAM when the prices on SDRAM
dropped through the floor a while back).

Now, those G4 iMacs, those are another story. If you can get past
the undeniable fact that they are the dorkiest looking computers EVER,
they perform way beyond what I would have expected from their CPU
clock rate numbers. If I were going to buy an Apple notebook (which
I'm currently not planning on doing... my PII system has another year
of life in it at least), I would save for an extra few months and get
one of the G4 systems. It would last longer that way, and I hate
migrating to a new system, spending months getting everything set up
the way you want it and getting comfortable with the new system; my
goal is to do that as seldom as possible.

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[uid8472]

BTW, anyone try consoling into a modern SPARC with USB ports, or are they only for peripherals?

I do just this on a quasi-regular basis; the console is a Rev. D iMac with a KeySpan serial thingy and cu(1) from Taylor UUCP, and the SPARC is a headless Sun Ultra 1 running NetBSD.

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[Bobartig]

Back in the day when G3's came out, G3's were legitimately beating PII chips at the same clock at virtually every benchmark. The G3-500Mhz could squarely trounce a PIII-650Mhz in non-Photoshop benchmarks. It was a good time to be a mac users ;) *remenisce*

I think a 400 Mhz indigo imac is a little more than a year old, but a lack of ram can account for a significant performance bottleneck. If that things running 9.1 and has 64MB or less, it's going to run like a cow. OS 9.1 will easily use 40 MB of ram for itself, or around 23 if you have virtual memory turned on. If your library can cough up $20 for another 128 MB, that iMac will be much happier. Of course, apple shipped a bunch of machines with 32-64 MB ram, and OS9, which meant you pretty much needed an instant RAM upgrade.. but I digress. My father has a 400Mhz iMac, which had only 64 MB, and every operation was unbearably slow, since the computer was constantly swapping data in and out of vram. He was about to chuck it out the window 'till I upgraded it with an additional 128. Now, everything's dandy.

IIRC, Win98 will run relatively fine with 64 MB ram, so a PII233 w/ 64MB will trounce a 400Mhz iMac w/ 64, but I think at 128 MB, their performance should be equal for most tasks, with computationally intensive tasks going to the iMac.

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[axxackall]

the hassles of WinModems and XFree86 for laptop screens under Linux

No hassles with any modems on all Powerbook models I've tried with various Linux/PPC distros (YDL, Gentoo, Debian) so far. Same for X11, sound, powerbook specific buttons and LCD backlight.

that OS 10.2 will run MS Office natively

What's wrong with OpenOffice? or what would be wrong to run MS Office (mac-os edition) on Mac-on-Linux? Well, if you really need "native" MS Office, than the laptop with MS windows will be the best choice anyway.

that it's still really a UNIX under the covers

Are you talking about Mac OS X? Do you know that Mac OS X is not the only Unix-like OS perfectly fine working on Mac platforms, including various powerbooks? Did you consider any of Linux/PPC distros, like Gentoo, YDL or Debian?

and that it's cool looking and not too heavy

It won't be any heavier with Linux/PPC - just a hundred bucks lighter :)

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[wirelessbuzzers]

This argument is very, very old and very, very dumb. It just depends on what you're doing. These stats were approximately true last time I looked, pipeline changes may have changed this.

If you're doing 3d gaming, who cares, it's your GPU doing the work anyway.

For 2d graphics, the Mac is about twice as fast per clock cycle. So, equivalent to a 2GHz Pentium for, say, Photoshop.

For cracking codes, the vector processing unit in the Mac really shines, it's over 6 times as fast per clock (see distributed.net) as a P4 for brute-forcing RC4. So, equivalent to about a 6.4 GHz, more than he claimed. The G4 almost 3 times faster than an Athlon (the second best) per clock cycle.

For most stuff, the G4 is slightly faster than Pentium, per clock cycle. Some 20% faster for POV-Ray, about 30% faster for SETI (based on stats between me and my roommate) etc. So for most stuff, it's not worth the 4GHz Pentium.

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe one day your OS will run on PPC, then we can really compare Apples to Apples. Then again, no one would buy it.

Windows NT did run on PPC at one time. They discontinued it because no one bought it.

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[zojas]

check out my page

I ran my 700MHz ibook against my 700MHz athlon thunderbird and the AMD completed the same seti block in about half the time it took the ibook! You should make sure you have both machines processing the same data block.

for integer type stuff, the ibook is 15% faster, but floating point is another story.

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[mumkin]

Not sure if it's supported in OS X, but it is in linux...

OS X does Bluetooth.

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[Natalie's Hot Grits]

"Back in the day when G3's came out, G3's were legitimately beating PII chips at the same clock at virtually every benchmark. The G3-500Mhz could squarely trounce a PIII-650Mhz in non-Photoshop benchmarks. It was a good time to be a mac users ;) *remenisce*"

While I agree with the first half, it still wasn't a "good time to be a mac user". You see, when they were beating the PII clock for clock, the G3 that Apple sold was ~1/2 the clock for the same price as a PII. So you were paying more for half the clock, but slightly better performance/clock. In the long run, you still paid more. When the PII 450MHz came out, the fastest G3 was ~300MHz.

Then Apple started publishing all these Photoshop benchmarks to alter the results. Even though the PII at 450MHz beat the G3 at 300MHz in almost everything, Apple started publishing benchmarks with a Dell v. Apple where a 450MHz dell with IDE and 128MB ram lost to a G3 with 256MB ram and SCSI hard drives where the G3 won only photoshop benchmarks, and only the ones that were memory or disk intensive. So apple proudly published these 2 DISK and RAM benchmarks, and concluded "yep, the G3 is faster" then went on a publishing spree for these results... all this while the G3 computer they were showing costed about 2x as much as the Dell in the benchmark.

Hope this gives people the rest of the truth.

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[Anonymous Coward]

SPEC test are the most horrible tests to run on a PPC chip. They don't get near testing the whole chip's power. look at the distributed.net article. That was not a benchmark, it was real use, and results from thousands of machines. Anyways why do people still feel like getting in some mac vs pc match every time anything having to do with a mac is mentioned. Your platform of choice is your own decision. Mac users know the advantages of their platform, and pc users know their. Acknowlege the differences and go on with your life.

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[ninthwave]

Good point this was just watching them process what was given and we compared total stats from when we went to work and came back which was approx 9 hours.

And it was one of those neat. Things, personally Macs tend to my eye to be smoother than Windows PCs but I am using Gnome/Enlightenment/Gnu/Linux on an AMD so where did my wallet and tastes lead me anyway.

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[Alan Partridge]

no-one cares

sorry

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[jx100]

It won't be any heavier with Linux/PPC - just a hundred bucks lighter :)

Yeah, since you can always get a TiPB without an OS...

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[jchristopher]

Be aware that all Mac laptops now have software modems (MacModems?) that only work under MacOS. (i.e. they won't work under LinuxPPC or YellowDog or whatever else you had in mind).

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[Twirlip of the Mists]

What's wrong with OpenOffice?

Never used it, huh?

Your post was pretty pointless, there, axxackall. It's sad that you've yet to come to terms with the fact that Mac OS X is a better operating system, by any meaningful metric, than PowerPC Linux. Go to your nearest Apple store and spend an hour or two using one of their display machines. Nobody will mind; just try it out and see all the wonderful goodness that is OS X.

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[Nomad37]

not *impossible*, you could always run mac-on-linux on your pc... (i think)

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[Anonymous Coward]

That should be hoverbike, so that we may have the obligatory Simpsons' reference.

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[axxackall]

Your advise is pointless. I've spent about 6 months with mac OS X at my home Mac and finalyy I've noticed that I swith to it in dual mode less and less, working more and more time in Linux/PPC (YDL that time).

I agree, first impresion was "Wow! nice candy!". But then I've found Mac OS X is too (comparing Linux, not to Windows!) limiting my capabilities of doing what I used to do in OS: development of server-side applications.

As for Open Office - it works good enough. I read all documents I get from my collegues and I can send them my editions back. Usually it works. All situations, when something looks not very nice b/c of some minor incompatibilities with MS Office, are compared to same situations of incompatibilities between different MS Office versions. We found that chances of such incompatibilities are almost the same.

By the way, I worked with mac version of MS Office - same problems, although usually it is well compatible. Same as Open Office.

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[Analog Penguin]

Nope. MOL is a virtual machine, not an emulator. It only runs on PPC versions of Linux. (Bummer.)

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[Anonymous Coward]

the length of pipeline does not a processor make

If you are suggesting that the P4 has a better pipeline design than the G4 or the (granted 10 month out) PowerPC 970. You will be disappointed by this article: The Pentium 4 and the G4e: an Architectural Comparison

Heres an education:

Shorter data pipeline
The performance advantage of the PowerPC G4 starts with its data pipeline. The term "processor pipeline" refers to the number of processing steps, or stages, it takes to accomplish a task. The fewer the steps, the shorter -- and more efficient -- the pipeline. Thanks to its efficient 7-stage design (versus 20 stages for the Pentium 4 processor) the G4 processor can accomplish a task with 13 fewer steps than the PC. You do the math.

All advanced processors try to guess what they will need to do next in order to increase performance. This is known as "speculative operation." Of course the processor doesn't always guess correctly, and when it's wrong it must often clear out the pipeline and start over. This results in bubbles -- or periods of time where no data is available for processing -- that leave the processor idle while it waits for new data. Because the G4 pipeline is short, the processor recovers from bubbles more quickly, resulting in higher processor utilization. With fewer processing steps, faster recovery and higher processor utilization, processor output is maximized.

Another aspect of speculative operation worth noting is that it is possible to create (for testing purposes) a contrived set of instructions that can make the processor guess correctly much more often than it would under real-world conditions. Thus a "benchmark" with no relation to actual performance can be crafted to cleverly avoid the bubble problem and thus indicate unrealistically high performance. This underscores the importance of using real applications to provide valid performance comparisons.

-Apple Computer

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[Skuld-Chan]

But you cared enough to reply which means someone cares.

I have won the essay writing competition, of that there is NO doubt - Alan Gordon Partridge

Touche :)

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[jonadab]

> If that things running 9.1
Yep, that's what it came with.

> and has 64MB or less, it's going to run like a cow.
Yes it does. Maybe that's the problem. My PII/233 came with 32MB
originally, but it does currently have a bit more than that (512MB).
I don't _hear_ the hard drive swapping on the iMac, but maybe it is.

> for another 128 MB, that iMac will be much happier.
I'll have to keep that in mind, come recommendation time.

Re:It's expensive, but ....

[vasqzr]

$999 gets you a 700MHz G3, 128MB, and the 12.1 screen

$1599 is the starting point for the 14.1 machines. They do have 256MB, 32MB video, and a Combo drive, though.

Nice and cheap

[e8johan]

I have to say something that I never though I'd say: "These new Macs look great! They are relatively cheap, run *nix and have al the hardware you could wish for!"

My sincere congratulations to Apple for having swung around from being a stubborn, expensive brand to become a computer supplier that I like. I will concider an Apple next time I buy a computer!

Re:Nice and cheap

[Anonymous Coward]

"They are relatively cheap"

Relative to a PC of equivalent spec? Otherwise...to what?

Re:Nice and cheap

[Anonymous Coward]

They are still a stubborn expensive brand. It's the marketing that has changed. And that is all that has changed.

Re:Nice and cheap

[Pila]

And you've to consider that Macs have a much longer life than PCs. My first machine is a Revision A Tibook and works great, also with its "slow" 500 Mhz G4 CPU

Re:Nice and cheap

[edmo]

Actually, apple has had always had good stuff like this, everybody just sees the price and doesn't bother to check the specs

Also Mac's do have a longer life then most other computers Iv worked w/
I once read a quote that said a mac has a useful life of 8-10 years, at that I laughed my head off, until I realized I wuz reading it on my PPC from 95(only thing that's gone out in that time is the monitor...)

Re:Nice and cheap

[lemkebeth]

Quite true.

As I've said in the past, anything cheaper than an iBook is last years model on the PC side.

Why? custom components are what go into ALL laptops and there is no way to get around it so, Apple can make the current model cheaper than anyone else as that is something they excel at.

In other words, get a cheap PC laptop? it is last years tech.

Re:Nice and cheap

[A_Non_Moose]

I will concider an Apple next time I buy a computer!

And the first thougt I had was:

Hey! Apple (con) Cider

.

argh

[Anonymous Coward]

2 days after we ordered 4 iBooks and 8 PBs =(

Re:argh

[mgaiman]

You can return them. Apple has a 10 day return policy (if they're opened though, you'll have to pay a restock fee).

Re:argh

[Teknobob]

I'm in the same boat with my personal machine. I won't complain too much if there is an upgrade for a superdrive.

Re:argh

[MoxCamel]

Be advised that Apple (well, the Apple Store) has a "no return" policy if you change any configuration, such as adding more memory or a bigger hard drive.

I know this because I wanted to exchange my 15" iMac for a 17" iMac. They didn't want to do it because I had ordered my iMac with extra memory. I had to talk to a manager who not only accepted the exchange, but waived the stocking fee. Their staff was courteous and professional, but persistence pays.

Re:argh

[Anonymous Coward]

If it's only 2 days after the order, maybe they have not even been shipped or at least delivered.

And if they are already on their way, you can probably negotiate a substantial refund since Apple does not want to stockpile obsolete machines. Not very easy, but you can probably save quite a few bucks with some patience if you accept to keep the older models.

Re:argh

[Anonymous Coward]

yea, under normal circumstances, we could return them. however, this came off of grant money, the machines are here, and are now property of uncle sam. returning 'tagged' stuff is a real hassle. =(

Re:argh

[Van Halen]

Yep, that's how it goes. My wife and I bought a 600 MHz iBook with DVD drive and 30 GB disk about 6 weeks ago, knowing full well that Apple would likely update the line before year's end. We decided we'd rather have it "now" (at the time) than wait and possibly get something better. Even if Apple released new models the next day.

Looking at the Apple store, I see now we could get 700 MHz for $200 less than we paid, or 800 MHz + 32 MB video memory + Combo drive for $50 less. But that's how it goes in computers. Buy what you need now, or forever wait for the next better, cheaper thing. Sure, I wouldn't mind the nicer computer and/or savings, but I'm also glad we've already had the thing for over a month.

Re:argh

[Twirlip of the Mists]

We decided we'd rather have it "now"

I'm right there with ya. Back in August I impulse-bought-- literally!-- a dual 1 GHz G4 with 17" monitor. I love it. Of course, that was back when I hadn't been laid off by a failing employer, but you can blame that on my own clueless optimism. Hell, at least my new Mac is paid for.

damn the high prices

[simong_oz]

If only I could afford one of those nice, shiny powerbooks ...

Apple's laptop machines are awesome and I'd gladly switch over from windows if I could afford it :(

Re:damn the high prices

[Anonymous Coward]

they just dropped the prices across the entire portable line!

a $200 price drop... that's a tad over 16% cheaper.

the entry level iBook is $999 it was $1199

and the entry level TiPowerBook is $2299

Re:damn the high prices

[rhost89]

Thats been my bigest complaint, id switch everything over to apple and be done with m$ forever if I could afford it.

Re:damn the high prices

[Anonymous Coward]

iBooks now start at 1000 USD.

No more complaining about the prices of Macintosh computers, please. Nice things come at a price.

Just ask yourself what you need, then check the price; OR ask yourself how much money you're spending for it then find the best quality for this price, but PLEASE don't mix the buying strategies.

Re:damn the high prices

[simong_oz]

Just ask yourself what you need, then check the price; OR ask yourself how much money you're spending for it then find the best quality for this price, but PLEASE don't mix the buying strategies.

No, you see, I don't need a portable computer at all. In fact, when it really comes down to it, I don't even really need a computer (for personal use that is).

But I do want a computer, and the one I want the most would be the nice, shiny 1GHz powerbook.

My point was not to complain about the high prices, but simply to say how much I would like one of these macs.

Re:damn the high prices

[Anonymous Coward]

iBooks now start at 1000 USD.

No more complaining about the prices of Macintosh computers, please. Nice things come at a price.

Now if only they'd drop the price on the G4 towers and make them affordable.

I can get:
AMD Athlon 2000+
Soyo Dragon KT400 motherboard
512MB of DDR-333 ram
80GB WD hard drive
Asus GeForce 4 128MB AGP card
Superhawk Aluminum midtower case + 430watt power supply
and an 18" Sony TFT flat panel display for $1600. A dual 800Mhz G4 tower with 256 megs of ram and a geforce4 mx card is $1600 without a monitor. WTF? Why not take take the other processor out of it that I'm never going to use and offer it for $1000 and a 17" LCD flat panel for $500? Their LCD displays are over $900!!! WTF are they smoking?? I can get a 21" Sony Trinitron monitor for $475 now or the 18" TFT flat panel for $680. Sheesh. Fucking price gougers.

Re:damn the high prices

[splateagle]

four little words: total cost of ownership.

The argument that Macs are too expensive is a bit short sighted: In the same way the speed isn't *just* about Mhz, price isn't *just* about initial outlay.

factor in things like the value of the bundled iApps (compared to the outlay for equivalent software) the slower depreciation (Apples' second hand values are notoriously robust), and slower rate of built-in obsolescence (meaning less need for expensive regular upgrades, and a longer shelf life) together with the improved reliability (meaning fewer repairs and less downtime - productivity being a cost factor for anyone who makes their living using their Computer)...

some wouyld say that looking at the 'big picture' owning a Mac is actually cheaper once you bite the initial bullet of the purchase price.

Re:damn the high prices

[Hrothgar The Great]

Well, except of course for when the Mac you bought is no longer compatible - with anything! I'd say, given Apple's history of dropping their entire customer base every so often, that if you buy the bottom of the line (iBook or iMac G3 for $800-$1000) you get a pretty reasonable price, but it'll be unsupported in 1-2 years. Buy the top of the line for $3000 and you have maybe 3 years. That's just my opinion, though.

I want one of those iBooks, and they're actually relatively cheap, but I would be too afraid of Apple dropping their support of their slowest stuff in the very near future.

Re:damn the high prices

[outZider]

Dropping support? My 1998 iMac Rev. A still works, and it runs OS X. My 2000 iMac works, runs OS X. I don't see the problem here.

Re:damn the high prices

[splateagle]

fair comment, although one that's largely refuted by the five year old machine I have sitting downstairs which happily runs the latest version of the OS (that's a biege G3 running Jaguar)

True, if you buy the bottom of the line it's bound to have a shorter shelf life, but that doesn't mean it's "no longer compatible" - unless your definition of compatibility is running the very latest software, and even then I think your under estimating the longevity of these beasties.

Re:damn the high prices

[Hrothgar The Great]

Yes, I understand that it has been a while since this has happened; however, if Apple makes another radical change to their architecture, like the jump long ago from 68k to PPC, or the more recent switch to G3/G4, I don't think it will take them very long to stop making their OS work with your iMacs. I understand that they make better products by not supporting the oldest models, but it makes buying the low end from them kind of scary.

Re:damn the high prices

[lemkebeth]

I really wish people who say this would bother to do some research.

High price?

What are you buying some repackaged last year model? (Probably).

There is no such thing as a commodity laptop and never has been and probably never will be as you have to custom design the parts to fit into the small portable case.

Cheap PC laptops are repackaged older models.

If that was all you wanted, go buy a refurb iBook.

Re:damn the high prices

[BinxBolling]

like the jump long ago from 68k to PPC, or the more recent switch to G3/G4

The G3 and G4 are PPC chips. The move to G3s and G4s was not a platform switch.

Re:damn the high prices

[Hrothgar The Great]

Late reply, and correct me if I'm wrong - but while I am already aware that the G3/G4 line is PPC, isn't it also true that OSX does not support the older PPC processors? That's what I was referring to in my other post.

Re:damn the high prices

[BinxBolling]

Apple does not 'officially' support them, but I understand that some people are running OS/X on pre-G3 PPCs.

The first G3s were released at the end of 1997. Would you want to run Windows XP on a machine from 1997/98? I doubt it. And if I'm not mistaken, MS only officially supports XP on machines conforming to the PC99 specification (which dates to, you guessed it, 1999). So why aren't you accusing MS of having dropped their entire user base?

My guess is this: Apple appears to 'drop' their user base periodically because Mac users just don't upgrade their machines as often, on average; If you're upgrading your PC every couple of years, it's unlikely that any OS update is going to leave you behind.

Re:damn the high prices

[Twirlip of the Mists]

I'd say, given Apple's history of dropping their entire customer base every so often....

Apple has done that twice in the entire 25-year history of their company. First they went from the Motorola 68K architecture to the PowerPC architecture, and eventually they had to drop support for 68K processors in the OS. (Although I'm not sure when that was exactly; OS 8? I know I ran System 7 on a 68K machine.)

Then Apple decided to start, essentially, from scratch on OS X, so they had to draw a line somewhere. Older machines are still fully supported-- you can get AppleCare contracts on old machines, and Apple is still releasing bug fixes for the last few squirmys in OS 9-- but they won't run OS X, at least officially.

Consider that the lifespan of Mac OS Classic (for lack of a better name) was 18 years, from 1984 through 2002. That means it's fair to assume that OS X will be around for about the same amount of time; there's no reason to think that it won't be. And Apple got about 7 years out of the 68K family, and the PowerPC family has been around for about 11 years so far, with no end in sight. (The PowerPC 970 from IBM proves that the PowerPC architecture has a lot of life left in it.)

So you're correct that Apple does have a history of dropping their entire customer base every so often: about once every twelve years, on average. But your assertion that a brand new machine will be unsupported in 1-2 years is-- no offense-- completely nuts.

Re:damn the high prices

[Twirlip of the Mists]

I can get blah blah long list of parts for $1600.

Yes, but you have to assemble it yourself. I bought a brand new Power Mac G4 in August, and I had it up and running with all my software on it in about an hour and fifteen minutes. It hasn't even been turned off since, and I've only rebooted it twice (for 10.2.1 and again for 10.2.2).

Macs are definitely for people, like myself, who don't get any particular kick out of tinkering. If you prefer to tinker, then don't buy a Mac.

Re:damn the high prices

[Hrothgar The Great]

Just thought I would say - damn good point.

Speed Bumps?

[Jucius Maximus]

Apple would never have used such a title. Speed bumps (used in parking lots) are something that slow you down when you are driving over them!

Re:Speed Bumps?

[Ford Fulkerson]

Apple would never have used such a title.

No, but the new "windtunnel" PowerMacs have speed holes. They make the mac go faster.

Re:Speed Bumps?

[Moloch666]

In my area (Knoxville, TN) I've seen some billboards for the new Beatles, that say "Speed Bump" on them. The car happens to be yellow. For the longest time I thought it was making fun of them. I found it it was an ad campaign for their new Turbo charged Beatles.

Re:Speed bumps?

[timmyf2371]

It means that the speed has been bumped (up).

Re:Speed bumps?

[Betelgeuse]

Ah. Excellent. It makes sense now. Thanks.

Re:Speed Bumps?

[SlamMan]

They actually make the Mac not catch on fire, but close enough.

Re:Speed Bumps?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is Paul McCartney resurrecting his old band?

Well, that was my first thought when I read your post. But now I think you really meant 'beetle' (as in Volkswagen).

DD

Re:Speed Bumps?

[Moloch666]

Haha, you know that crossed my mind actually. Then I though no 2 e's isn't right. I'm on 3 hrs of sleep give me a break ;)

Re:Speed Bumps?

[mgs1000]

Kinda like some cars have scoops on their hoods, eh?

Re:Speed Bumps?

[duck_prime]

Speed bumps (used in parking lots) are something that slow you down when you are driving over them!

I don't know what you do in parking lots, but I always thought speed bumps were something used for getting airborne. ;)

Re:Speed bumps?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you people really that fucking illiterate and colloquially ignorant so as not to be able to understand "speed bump" in a downright-fucking-obvious context? Jumping Jesus eating soap on Thanksgiving, it's not rocket science, dummies.

Speed bumps

[Anonymous Coward]

When I read the headline, I thought Apple had artificially limited the speed of their laptops - a la Intel's "SX" range, or yesterday's article regarding "desktop processors" in laptops. Doh.

ibook

[fuzz6y]

$999 for pretty decent specs, and it doesn't even look like a see-n-spell any more. I want one.

PowerBook G4 & iBook

[catwh0re]

All laptops are now $200(USD) cheaper than before.

Re:PowerBook G4 & iBook

[fafaforza]

Actually, the lowest model is now an 867MHz TiBook with the new ATI 9000 graphics card and a 40 gig drive. This is the equivalent of the previously midrange model which sold for $3199. So the price drop is in reality closer to $1,000.

Difference being 256MB less RAM in the new one (upgradable for $40 to 512MB), but 67MHz more in the new one than the old one.

Re:PowerBook G4 & iBook

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, if you want to look at it that way, it's $1000 cheaper. If you consider that the previous low-end Powerbook was $2499 and the new low-end one is $2299, then it's $200.

Price Drop

[bedada]

The price of the powerbooks actually came down a decent amount. The top end machine is down from $3500 to $3000. Not FREE, but still a drop rather than the same.

RIAA

[e8johan]

Ok, two thing for RIAA to attend to:

"watching DVD movies to burning your own music CDs"

A portable DVD, i.e. you could end up watching region one DVDs in region two. BAD!

CD burner, aught to be illegal, makes rich artists starve. BAD!

Re:RIAA

[Planesdragon]

A portable DVD, i.e. you could end up watching region one DVDs in region two. BAD!

That's not too large an issue; it's a market division, not a geographical division. (I wager that the PXes on USAF bases in Japan sell Region 1 disks and Region 1 players.)

CD burner, aught to be illegal, makes rich artists starve. BAD!

Oddly enough, CD-burners are the least of the RIAA's new technology worries. Backing up your shiney "we will not replace this disk" CD is a justification for RIAA not offering to replace "broken licensed CDs." Mixing CDs of music you've got--especially if they're lesser quality due to the analog hole--is another thing that RIAA is probably all too happy to let you do.

Well, maybe not "happy", but "forced to allow due to the courts" sounds about right...

Re:RIAA

[e8johan]

Dear moderators!

The intention of my reply above was not to troll nor to put out a flamebait. My only intention was to be ironic about RIAA's standpoint. Please mod me up.

Cheers!
/Johan

Must be a first

[protohiro1]

Interesting that this makes a portable Apple's ENTRY LEVEL option. The low-end ibook is the cheapest apple you can buy.

Re:Must be a first

[Anonymous Coward]

haven't bothered to check your facts, have you?

Re:Must be a first

[iofire]

uh...the imac is $200 cheaper

Re:Must be a first

[binaryDigit]

Well not quite. They still have the original iMac for $799. So the iBook can be thought of as the most expensive G3 they sell.

Re:Must be a first

[Nezer]

Don't think so there chief... The classic iMacs, unless discontinued, start at $799 a full $200 under the low-end iBook.

Re:Must be a first

[goon america]

or the only G3 they sell.

Re:Must be a first

[binaryDigit]

No, the point is that they still sell the original iMac which still uses the G3. So they have two G3 based systems, the iBook and the original iMac (OiM).

Re:Must be a first

[RAMMS EIN]

``Interesting that this makes a portable Apple's ENTRY LEVEL option. The low-end ibook is the cheapest apple you can buy.''
$ 999 the cheapest portable apple you can buy? Gee, I can pluck one for free!

Re:Must be a first

[protohiro1]

True, and I was aware of this when I posted. But they don't promote the old imac. I think that the ibook really is, as I said, their entry-level product. Chief.

Re:Must be a first

[slowtonejoe75]

It's not the original iMac, it's the rev. B imac that is selling for $799. Peace out... or War in... which ever you prefer.

Re:Must be a first

[Anonymous Coward]

They may still sell the G3 iMac, but who buys it? You'd have to be crazy to pick it over an eMac (faster CPU, bigger monitor, and a DVD, for not much more money) or an iMac G4.

Re:Must be a first

[binaryDigit]

First and foremost my statement was a simple statement of fact, not one that endorses the existence of the iMac. Secondly, since they do still sell it (and Apple is not known to be a company that's fond of keeping slow/no selling models around nowdays) I can only assume that either A) people are still buying it or B) they have a warehouse full of them and they're just selling them off. Plus if you're just using the thing to primarily surf and do homework, then $300 is $300. Keep in mind at these price points that $300 represents a 30% increase in price.

Re:Must be a first

[qnonsense]

• It's not the original iMac, it's the rev. B imac that is selling for $799.

Well, if we're going to be picky...
No. It's the iMac (Summer 2001). I highly doubt it was a "rev. B" whatever that is, seeing as the Rev. C came out in Jan99.

I believe that what the original poster was trying to say when he used the word "original" was that it was the CRT iMac, not the Flat Panel (LCD) iMac. And he had a point, because that's true (see specs).

By the way, what the heck is a rev. B iMac? If you have a link I'd love to see it.

Re:Must be a first

[hysterion]

> By the way, what the heck is a rev. B iMac? If you have a link I'd love to see it.

Here ya go:
http://www.lowendmac.com/imacs/imac-b.shtml

Re:Must be a first

[stux]

The education market loves the things (old imacs)

They're practically indestructible, and work great as office/web machines.

Re:Must be a first

[qnonsense]

Got it, thanks

"speed bumps"?

[pongo000]

Hey, Pudge, where I live, speed bumps are used to slow people down. I couldn't figure out why in the hell Apple would want to slow their laptops down.

Mayhaps you were looking for "speed boost" or "speed increase"?

Re:"speed bumps"?

[qengho]

where I live, speed bumps are used to slow people down.

Heh. Although the term seems incongruous, it's shorthand for "bumps up the speed."

Re:"speed bumps"?

[David Roundy]

"Speed bump" is a term Apple introduced a few years back as a punning way of describing an increase in speed (i.e. bumping up the speed). Since then it has been used to describe the process Apple goes through when it doesn't have any new computers, so it just increases the speed of each model without changing anything else (including the price).

Re:"speed bumps"?

[MoneyT]

the price went down.

As for speed bumps. True they are IRL designed to slow people down, I've also seen them cause people to fly.

Re:"speed bumps"?

[BitHive]

Maybe he meant 'speed holes'.

Oh yeah, speed holes!

Re:"speed bumps"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Mayhaps? Of all the stupid-sounding made-up words I see and hear people use, that has got to be one of the worst. "Maybe" is good. "Perhaps" is good. "Mayhaps" just sounds dumb.

Re:"speed bumps"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple's bumping the speed. Motorola's been providing the speed bumps.

Re:"speed bumps"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe even Pudge, in all his gayness, is not as much of a shit-squeezeing faggot as you.

Re:"speed bumps"?

[patniemeyer]

I also had no idea what that meant... I assumed they were obsoleting something.

Pat

Re:"speed bumps"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Mayhap you need to check your facts before bragging about your command of the English language.

Re:"speed bumps"?

[commodoresloat]

where I live, "speed bumps" are "bumps of speed," i.e. lines of amphetamine. And they definitely don't slow people down....

In fact....

[Annoyed Coward]

News suggests that iBook might be cheaper by almost 200$.

iBook still stuck at G3

[elliotj]

I wonder when they iBook is gonna be given the dignity of a G4 processor. The life of the G3 has been remarkable but I can't help thinking that it has been stretched out not by virtue of the chip itself but rather because Apple is having trouble getting better and faster chips from Moto (hence the IBM PPC rumors recently).

This is pretty cool, especially for the TiBook. I'm sure video houses will appreciate the superdive to let them make rough cuts on the road and share them.

Now, sadly, my TiBook is no longer state-of-the-art. I can tell its feelings were hurt: this morning it ask me if it looked fat.

Re:iBook still stuck at G3

[Gizzmonic]

If Apple would ditch moto, they could have G3s running at 1.8Ghz today. They would most likely be faster than the G4 in just about every category. Apple screwed up big time when they decided to go with the G4. It will probably be a year until they can rectify that mistake (with the PPC 970)

Re:iBook still stuck at G3

[mrpuffypants]

it makes sense to me for Apple t still equip their iBooks with G3's for a couple of reasons:

-Other companies do it too...you can buy a Dell with a celeron as opposed to a speedy P4

-I can personally attest to, after using a G3 iBook, wanting something faster. Anybody that buys an apple these days has a pretty good chance of getting hooked for good, and right now I'm eyeing that new PowerBook just because my iBook seems a bit slow

oh, and i want to bust Quake 3 out on it at QuakeCon 2003 =]

Re:iBook still stuck at G3

[simong_oz]

I can tell its feelings were hurt: this morning it asked me if it looked fat.

oh you poor, poor bastard. I hope you didn't hesitate in answering...

Re:iBook still stuck at G3

[BWJones]

Actually, for what it is targeted for, the G3 in the iBook is a decent chip. There is good performance, fantastic battery life and low heat production. I've been running an iBook for a while now and am quite impressed with the size, packaging and performance. Granted it is not a replacement for my Dual G4 with 2GB of RAM, scads of hard drive space and 22in Cinema Display, but when I am on the road, getting my email, writing papers and giving presentations, it is all perfectly suited to the iBook.

Re:iBook still stuck at G3

[Anonymous Coward]

The G3 in these new iBooks has twice the level-2 cache (512 KB now) running at processor speed.

They're rumoured to have VMX (IBM's Altivec -compatible VPU extension) which I seriously doubt... but the increased cache is really nice.

Re:iBook still stuck at G3

[0x69]

The current iBooks use the new IBM 750fx "G3" CPU's. What's holding them back is *marketing* - the 750fx goes up to 1GHz (25% faster) with 200MHz (100% faster) bus, but Apple's too afraid of eating into (more profitable) TiBook sales to ship faster iBooks.

IBM did a *really* nice job designing the 750fx CPU. Back in May/June (when Apple introduced it in the iBook) one of the Apple hardware sites did some G3(750fx) vs. G4(Moto) comparison benchmarks. Bottom line: for anything that wasn't written to use AltiVec, the IBM G3 was just as fast as the Moto G4 (at same MHz).

Weak video systems really slowed older iBooks down in (eye-candy-full) OSX. It's far less a problem in the new iBooks.

Understand what you'll be using it for and do your homework BEFORE spending the $$$ to get a G4.

Re:iBook still stuck at G3

[Skuld-Chan]

Apple is having trouble getting better and faster chips from Moto (hence the IBM PPC rumors recently).

I don't understand this, because last time I pulled the heatsinks off the two G3 systems I have the chip was made by IBM (I mean it said IBM on the chip). One of them is a modded 6100/66 and the other is a b&w G3/300. Doesn't IBM make the actual G4 cpu's too?

Re:iBook still stuck at G3

[RevAaron]

I'm glad Apple has kept the G3 in the iBook, as an iBook owner. It means lower prices and better battery life. No complaints there. For what I do, a G3 is just as fast as a G4 at the same clock speed- which is generally true for all non-AltiVec apps for OS9. OS X itself is heavily optimized for AltiVec, but, while I run OS X, I don't run many OS X apps, and none that demand much performance,

Re:iBook still stuck at G3

[RevAaron]

IBM makes the G3 chips Apple uses and Mot makes Apple's G4s. AltiVec is something by and from Mot only. Apparently the G5/PPC970 will implement something very much like it, a clone, at this point IBM doesn't have the rights to AltiVec.

Re:iBook still stuck at G3

[BigJimSlade]

Now, sadly, my TiBook is no longer state-of-the-art. I can tell its feelings were hurt: this morning it ask me if it looked fat.

Tell me about it... I paid $3000 earlier this year for the high-end model. The same price gets you much more only 6 months later.

<sob>

Re:iBook still stuck at G3

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone knows you just answer immediately, "you look just as HFS+ as you ever have."

Re:iBook still stuck at G3

[llamalicious]

Two big things to remember here:

1. Faster G3, yes it's not a G4, but still faster.
2. Radeon 7500. You get the benefits of having Quartz Extreme now. Believe me when I say having OS X off-load all the eyecandy to the GPU is a huge boost to performance. Especially for those who will undoubtedly tell you that Jaguar on the last set of iBooks is pretty slow.

All in all... I think the Radeon is going to provide more of a boost (for the 10.2 users) than the CPU speed. As always, YMMV.

Re:iBook still stuck at G3

[addaon]

Do note, though, that there are a few surprising programs which bang on altivec heavily. For me, the biggest one is VirtualPC... using WindowsXP on my 600 MHz iBook (640MB of ram) is literally impossible... ten seconds plus to open a menu. On a friend's 667MHz powerbook (512MB ram) it's more than usable, I'd say around PII/233 level. So don't just equate altivec with graphics manipulation. On the other hand, I don't regreet buying an iBook at all.

Re:iBook still stuck at G3

[jpt.d]

I run a 700mhz ibook with the radeon w/16mb vram. Jaguar is certainly not as fast as windows is on my desktop, but it is still a load faster than 10.1.5 . I do in fact have Quartz Extreme as well.

Re:iBook still stuck at G3

[dhovis]

What Motorola calls "Altivec" and Apple calls "Velocity Engine" is part of the "Book E" PPC-spec from a few years back. "Altivec" is Motorola's trademark, and therefore IBM cannot call their implementation "Altivec" without licencing the name from Motorola.

The vector processing unit in the IBM PPC970 is identical to Altivec. Only the name is different.

Re:iBook still stuck at G3

[billybob]

You get the benefits of having Quartz Extreme now

This isn't correct. The last models of ibook, which I think came out in february or so (I have one), have a Radeon that supports quartz extreme, and OSX is plenty fast with jaguar. The radeon 7500 is a nice bump though, especially since it has 32 instead of 16 megs of VRAM.

Re:iBook still stuck at G3

[Twirlip of the Mists]

Granted it is not a replacement for my Dual G4 with 2GB of RAM, scads of hard drive space and 22in Cinema Display

Careful, there. Nobody likes a show-off. ;-)

Re:iBook still stuck at G3

[Twirlip of the Mists]

Just for the record, nobody has attached the name G5 to the PowerPC 970. Might not want to confuse the two in future.

Re:iBook still stuck at G3

[Into The White]

I agree, the iBook line needs to go G4 already.

Altivec optimizations are becoming more and more prevalent among Mac software, but the most compelling reason for Altivec for ANY user is that OS X reportedly has heavy altivec optimizations. This explains why a disproportionate number of iBook users complain about OS X's performance.

Of course for Mac users who use either audio or video software that is Altivec optimized, a G4 is required, and it's always a shame to run something like Photoshop on an iBook when you just KNOW that it would FLY on a Titanium! :)

This is why I'm not going to buy a laptop for another year or so. Titaniums are too expensive for me, and I won't buy a Wintel, so that leaves iBooks--but I'll only buy a "G4 iBook". Although I suppose I may break down and buy a real cheap iBook as a "stop-gap" solution...

Re:iBook still stuck at G3

[stux]

And that name would be VMX :)

The original codename from when IBM, Apple and Moto hammered it out

Re:iBook still stuck at G3

[stux]

If Apple would ditch moto, they could have G3s running at 1.8Ghz today. They would most likely be faster than the G4 in just about every category

Except all of Apple's core markets, like science, video, film, audio, design, graphics, etc

Oh Dear.. Here come the hokey speedbump jokes..

[Bowie J. Poag]

Pick your favorite punchline for this article:


o Macs are already speedbumps.. in my driveway!!

o Wow, i'll have to pick one up...and then drop it.

o If you were to take an array of cats...and train them all to meow really really fast, and synchronize their meowing with the other cats near them in the array, and then fed them amphetamines..consider the possibilities. Suppose the cats were to all meow at or near the speed of light. If you were to place a cowboy in the middle of the array, would the cats explode if he attempted to herd them?

o Congratulations, Apple! Welcome to 1998!

o (Insert punchline here)

Re:Oh Dear.. Here come the hokey speedbump jokes..

[sockit2me9000]

Apple, now ribbed for your pleasure...

Re:Oh Dear.. Here come the hokey speedbump jokes..

[Anonymous Coward]

Bowie,

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

SHUT UP.

Thank you for your prompt action in this regard.

Re:MegaHertz Myth!!

[Anonymous Coward]

"or 8 AMD 2400XP's combined together"

Are you fucking nuts? That's the single dumbest comment I've ever read at /.

Radeon 9000

[BShive]

Info here. It's a really nice chip, but I wonder how it matches up against the Nvidia's GeForce2 Go and 4 Go ... That aside, I want one. :)

Apple proves the 'rumours guys' wrong

[davids-world.com]

Without many words, let we cite macosrumours.com, dated Oct 31st:

In the mean time, one thing we can tell you is that if the announcements do indeed come next week, they will not include Superdrives. This is because, as noted in yesterday's update, Apple has stated publicly it will not adopt the portable DVD-RW/CD-RW drive until a slot-loading version is available -- something which will not come to pass until roughly the first of next year.

Wonder where they pulled those shiny slot-in superdrive-bunnies out of their black hat...

Re:Apple proves the 'rumours guys' wrong

[zaren]

MOSR has been irrelevant in the rumors "industry" (in my opinion) since they completely missed the boat on the iMac all those years ago. Their "rumors" tend to come from pie-eyed "what-if" scenarios snarfed form IRC these days.

There's much better Mac rumor sites out there - MacRumors and Macslash being two of them.

Re:Apple proves the 'rumours guys' wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

To quote MacRumors.com (tons better than MacOSRumors.com), dated October 30, 2002:

So many rumors have been floating around about the expected laptop upgrades... here is a summary of what is likely in the near future. This information is based on circulating rumors as well as validation from sources:

Very Likely
Powerbook 800Mhz-1GHz with Superdrive
iBook G3 up to 800MHz

Probable
November 5th, 2002 Release Date

Possible
Bluetooth

Uncertain
13" iBook Screens
Radeon Mobility 9000

Re:Apple proves the 'rumours guys' wrong

[smagoun]

I agree that MOSR is irrelevant these days. Another place to go is ThinkSecret, which has an excellent track record.

As The Apple Turns is another excellent site for commentary and rumors.

And how could we forget the Naked Mole Rat's reports over at MacEdition? He's the grand-daddy of all rumormongers; he got his start as Mac the Knife way back when MacWeek was still around.

Re:Apple proves the 'rumours guys' wrong

[frostycellnex]

macosrumors might not be that far off. If you look at the likely shipping times, 4-6 weeks for the superdrive model, macosrumors was just about right on in terms of availability. It's just that marketing must have figured it would be advantageous to announce before the Christmas season.

Re:Apple proves the 'rumours guys' wrong

[foyle]

The most fun I had last year was making up a rumor out of thin air and sending it to MOSR. I waited a few days and then sent him a similar rumor from a different email address. Two days later he printed it word for word and then went on to say "multiple sources have confirmed blah blah blah".

Needless to say, I'm wracking my brains to come up with a good one to send him prior to MacWorld in January.

Re:Apple proves the 'rumours guys' wrong

[flagstone]

Sorry, the best Apple rumor site these days is clearly this one.

Re:Apple proves the 'rumours guys' wrong

[RestiffBard]

you nkow I can't think of any other company that has prompted so many rumours about it over the years. really what other company gets so many people chomping at the bit to know whats next?

thing thats killing me is that I might not be able to afford one of these new portables until after I move. damn I want one now.

Re:Apple proves the 'rumours guys' wrong

[lemkebeth]

Credit where credit is due.

Mac Rumors and AtAT's 6 month old predicted this.

It doesn't look like a Toilet Seat!

[Zerbey]

Decent spec, runs Linux, doesn't look like either a toilet seat or a childs toy.

I never thought I'd say this but....

I want a Mac.

Re:It doesn't look like a Toilet Seat!

[andynms]

I actually sorta liked the toilet seat look. (I've got an original Tangarine iBook.) Time to trade it in, I think, even if the new ones don't come in bright orange.

Re:It doesn't look like a Toilet Seat!

[MoneyT]

One benefit to the toilet seat design of the old iBooks. Durable as all hell. Take your dell or sony or whatever laptop, hold it verticaly and then drop it from about waist height. I'll bet more than just the door on the CD-ROM breaks.

Re:It doesn't look like a Toilet Seat!

[Simba]

Please do not buy one. As you wish to run Linux on it, you have totally missed the point of the Mac. They are not for you.

Stick with Intel.

Re:It doesn't look like a Toilet Seat!

[Twirlip of the Mists]

Absolutely. My girlfriend lugged an original blueberry iBook through medical school, a PhD, and the first year of her surgery residency... and that's just so far. She's beaten that thing like a redheaded stepchild, and hasn't had the first problem with it. It's been by far the most reliable and durable laptop I've ever seen.

Re:It doesn't look like a Toilet Seat!

[Anonymous Coward]

Please do not buy one. As you wish to run Linux on it, you have totally missed the point of the Mac. They are not for you.

Amen!

"The Apple says;"

[Anonymous Coward]

"BUY!"

still not cheap enough

[tps12]

It's great to see Apple giving its upper-class customers more for the same price, but it still doesn't solve the real problem. Apple Ibooks are still out of reach for those of us who compromise the working classes.

Just glancing at the Apple web page, I can see that their most "affordable" lap-top is anything but. I could understand them doing this if they already had a large market share--there is value in "luxury" brands--but with MAC sales so low, it seems like a bad idea. As a result, the average consumer won't even consider the Ibook. For example, look at me. I was laid off when the Dot.Com bubble burst, and now work doing manual labor down at the docks. I'm in hock up to my loogies, and have enough trouble just keeping my wife and five children sheltered, shorn, and clod each month. There's no way I could afford one of these things, and neither could most people in my position. The lower classes need something affordable, dependable, and proven, and for this reason we will continue to stick with PC manufacturers such as GateWay 2000 and DELL. I hope Apple figures this out soon.

Re:still not cheap enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple iBooks are still out of reach for those of us who compromise the working classes.

Oooh matron...

Re:still not cheap enough

[Anonymous Coward]

I was laid off when the Dot.Com bubble burst, and now work doing manual labor down at the docks

Really? Your homepage rather suggests otherwise, Mr. http://www.columbia.edu/~tps12/.

Re:still not cheap enough

[SlamMan]

If you're in hock up to your loogies, why are you buying a new computer?

Re:still not cheap enough

[tps12]

What are you implying? That manual labor isn't good enough for an Ivy League grad? This is classism at it's most basic, folks. I may not make much money, but I'm proud of who I am.

Re:still not cheap enough

[mrpuffypants]

I disagree; the lowest-priced inspiron from Dell is just at $899

personally, I would pay the extra $100 to get the iBook simply for OS X 10.2 and/or for the kickass look of ibooks

trust me, these things get looks from people when you walk into a lab here on campus, open it up and it's immediately ready, then close it down, drop it in your bag and split for lunch

Re:still not cheap enough

[rawshark]

It's great to see Apple giving its upper-class customers more for the same price, but it still doesn't solve the real problem. Apple Ibooks are still out of reach for those of us who compromise the working classes.

Huh?

Cheapest Mac: $999
Cheapest Dell notebook: $899
Cheapest Gateway notebook: $999

Re:still not cheap enough

[scrawny]

i want you to tell me why having a laptop is so important down at the dock. if keeping your kids in clothes is even ~remotely~ difficult, the fact that you continue to pay someone a monthly fee for internet access is appalling.

let's watch Apple do things the way Dell and Gateway do? build them thicker, heavier, charge us $gazillion for gigabit ethernet, etc. no thanks.

Re:still not cheap enough

[Anonymous Coward]

those of us who compromise the working classes.

What do you do? Like install rootkits and stuff?

Re:still not cheap enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you understand the concept of a luxury item? Because that's what a computer and internet access is. It isn't as important as geeks make it out to be.

Re:still not cheap enough

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought this was a site for smart folks, and you all bought into this obviously fake post.

Re:still not cheap enough

[bpbond]

You compromise the working classes? What does that mean? You get caught in bed with them?

Re:still not cheap enough

[Planesdragon]

The lower classes need something affordable, dependable, and proven, and for this reason we will continue to stick with PC manufacturers such as GateWay 2000 and DELL. I hope Apple figures this out soon.

(Gateway dropped the "2000" bit three years ago.)

The lowest priced iBook is $999. Dell's lowest priced model is $899, and Gateway's lowest priced model is $999. They've hardly got Apple beat on the "value laptop" end.

And, like a different poster said... if you're sturggling along doing dock work, what do you need a shiney new laptop for?

Re:still not cheap enough

[Anonymous Coward]

if you're sturggling along doing dock work, what do you need a shiney new laptop for?

To quote Gary Trudeau, the creator of Doonesbury, "Labor leaders are always sensitive to the working class. That's how they avoid belonging to it."

Re:still not cheap enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, I think that regardless of what you are doing, you are an elitist snob based in classism. When was the last time you heard some brick layer say s/he would rather be laying bricks 60 hours a week for pittance wage slave money because it has "dignity." You went to college. Elite. You went to an Ivy league school, uber-elite. You are white male age 18-35. elite by birth. fuck you and your pretty pony you rode in on.

Re:still not cheap enough

[Anonymous Coward]

With five kids you can't provide for already, what you need is affordable birth control, not affordable computers.

Re:still not cheap enough

[Anonymous Coward]

TROLL!

Lesse, if his website is accurate, he's 22-23.

He claims to have been thru college early enough to get a job in the dot.com boom, has five kids, and is now working at the docks.

Do the math, people!

Re:still not cheap enough

[farfolen]

proletariat was actually the Marxist term for what we consider to be the working class. technically he didnt use Marxist terminology then, of course, his education probably wasn't paramount considering he went to an Ivy League school and works at the "docks".

Naturally..

[Sassinak]

Oh sure.. just as you get the TOTL model like 2 months ago, apple throws you a curve ball and adds the superdrive and bumps up the video/cpu..

You know, I'm starting to think that all laptop manufactures should start adding a shipping label that says

"Warning Obsoleted Equipment Enclosed, please contact your manufacturer to obtain a newer obsoleted device"

Anyone want to buy a G4?

Re:Naturally..

[hammarlund]

Argghh. Me too. Bought the 800mhz PB about a month ago, 40G, about $3200. Could get the same thing, bit faster processor, new video, for $2300 now.

Welcome to Macland.

Re:Naturally..

[LittleLebowskiUrbanA]

"Anyone want to buy a G4?" How much? Specs?

Re:Naturally..

[Sassinak]

867MHz PowerPC G4
1MB L3 & 256K L2 cache
133MHz system bus
1024MB SDRAM memory
60GB Ultra ATA hard drive
Combo Drive (DVD-ROM/CD-RW)
ATI Mobility Radeon 7500
w/64MB DDR video memory
Gigabit Ethernet
56K internal modem
1 FireWire & 2 USB Ports
AirPort Card Included

Like I said, at the time, TOTL.. tis a shame too, because I like it.

I don't think $1500 is too bad for it..

Re:Naturally..

[OwnedByTwoCats]

News Flash: Major computer vendors coming out with faster, less expensive models, better features in the next six months!

Re:Naturally..

[hammarlund]

heh. A former boss (stereo nut) once told me, "Just wait till you see the new units coming out a week after you die..."

Re:Naturally..

[Anonymous Coward]

867MHz PowerPC G4

Apple didn't start selling 867MHz G4s in PowerBooks until today. Your machine is 800MHz.

Re:Naturally..

[fafaforza]

This will teach you to listen to what Apple rumor sites and incredulous forum posts have to say.

In all seriousness, my boss still has the 550MHz TiBook and he still wouldnt trade it for any new Intel laptop.

Re:Naturally..

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the worst case of this happening is when, in November of '93, I ordered a Centris (later Quadra) 660AV from the campus bookstore.

There were shipping delays, and then the bookstore was closed for winter break most of January, and then when they finally reopened, they'd sent back my machine because it hadn't been picked up in three weeks (the three weeks they'd been closed, mind you). Then they screwed up the order and the wrong machine came in.

I finally got my new, super cool 68040 A/V machine in Febuary of 1994.

TWO WEEKS LATER, the PowerMacs came out. The 6100, which blew the 660 away performance wise, was about $500 less than what I paid.

I actually yelled out loud in the Library when I picked up the newest Macworld and read that on the cover.

I also just bought a 667 TiBook, but that was a couple months ago, so I don't feel as bad. I try to avoid looking at prices for as long as possible after buying a new computer.

Re:Naturally..

[MoneyT]

Next time you should listen to the people talking about the releases or pay attention to Apple's release schedual. The laptop line has been in need of a revanmp for a while now, and I've been saying it for a while. I actualy expected them in september, but hey, even November is within their average time frame.

Re:Naturally..

[LittleLebowskiUrbanA]

I can't afford it right now but one of my partners is in the market for one. OK to have him email you if you're interested? Seems like too good of deal to pass up. Is 10.2 installed already? Is this 15.2 display?

Re:Naturally..

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, this is why you learn something about Apple's update habits and check out (good) rumor sites before you buy. I decided a month and a half ago that I wanted to replace my desktop machine with a PowerBook. And I certainly could have afforded to buy a machine right away. But I knew that the PBs had been last updated in April, and were probably due for another bump. And the rumor sites mostly supported this suspicion.

Now I've got a 1GHz/Superdrive-equipped slice of loveliness heading my way... Neener, neener!

And 'cincider' that, OS X has a ...

[Anonymous Coward]

built in spell checker!

Speed Bumps!?

[gregRowe]

I am not a Mac fan (though I could possibly be converted) but to use a perfectly good computer as a speed bump seems crazy to me ;)

Speed Bumps...

[Thorin_]

Am i the only one that read the headline and pictured a laptop with a big curved top?

Monitor Spanning

[djcdplaya]

And now for the doubts:
-Can the new Ibook Monitor Span yet?
-Is the G3 going to be replaced soon in the Ibook
-How much battery does a 15.x display AND a superdrive eat?

Any answers?

Re:Monitor Spanning

[Twirlip of the Mists]

-Can the new Ibook Monitor Span yet?

No. (And in the Mac world, it's not called "monitor spanning." It's simply called using multiple monitors.)

-Is the G3 going to be replaced soon in the Ibook

No.

-How much battery does a 15.x display AND a superdrive eat?

The display eats basically none at all. The PowerBook gets about 4 hours of battery life with Jaguar, plus or minus half an hour, and modulo what you're doing. If you're just word processing and whatnot and you keep the hard drive spun down most of the time, that can easily push the 5 hour mark.

Burning DVDs is sure to eat battery power, so backing up your MP3 collection on a transatlantic flight is probably not the best idea.

128MB?

[Junks Jerzey]

Note: I am not bashing Apple here. I have owned Macs.

How far can you really get with OS X and the 128MB these Powerbooks ship with? OS X is great, but the prevailing opinion is that it's more memory hungry than Windows. (It's quite possible that this is a myth. Reviewers love to say dumb things like "I highly recommend that you upgrade to 512MB if you plan on doing more than simple word processing.")

I'll add, of course, that 128MB uses less power than 256MB, which is important for laptops.

Re:128MB?

[Spencerian]

The PowerBooks don't come with less than 256MB.

Mac OS X's specifications recommend a minimum of 128MB. If you are going to use Classic, that is too small--OS X thrashes as it has to swap a lot.

RAM is currently quite cheap, and since cracking an iBook or PowerBook open can be a little daunting (and warranty-voiding if done wrong), I recommend having at least 384MB for Jaguar. 512MB+ is optimum.

Re:128MB?

[Anonymous Coward]

Personally, I find this not so bad. Apple's memory prices were typically a bit higher than third-party for commodity modules (the recent "double your ram for $64 notwithstanding). I wish I could get some of the models with 0MB ram so I can get all the ram from somewhere else. This way I end up with spare 128 MB modules to put in places like our fleet of original iMacs.

Re:128MB?

[Anonymous Coward]

$40 gets you double the ram (256m in an iBook, up to 1 gig (!) for $40 in a TiBook.

Re:128MB?

[dhovis]

128 is the bare minimum. It works, and if you don't run more than 1 or 2 apps at a time, you might not notice the swapping. I have 384MB in my original iBook 500, and it runs Jaguar just fine. It bogs down a bit if I have 10-12 apps running, but otherwise swapping is not a problem.

The good news is that 512MB chips for the iBook are now available for $80-100, so you can max out the memory (640MB) for a reasonable price. Apple memory is still expensive though.

Re:128MB?

[thefinite]

'Tis true. 128 is paltry for OS X. However, Apple tends to charge big bucks for its memory. I like to think they keep it slim because people prefer to buy it somewhere else. I suppose you could argue that Apple should include more memory for the same price. (Of course, I would agree with that, but then, I would like to pick up PowerBooks like I do groceries.)

Re:128MB?

[Nezer]

Where do you see a 128 MB Powerbook? The lowest-end PB starts at 256 MB and they are still running thier 'double your memory for $40' deal which puts the memory pricing back in-line with everyone else. In other words, get it.

256 MB starts to get useful but at 512 the PB is plenty responsive. I'm very impressed with OS X's memory handling and Aqua maintains a very snappy response under heavy system loads. Of course you still get that damned beach ball but that rarly has anything to do with system load in my experience.

Re:128MB?

[dhovis]

cracking an iBook or PowerBook open can be a little daunting (and warranty-voiding if done wrong)

You haven't done it, have you? Easy as pie. Pop off the keyboard. On the TiBook, you will see the 2 slots. On the iBook, you need to remove the Airport card (if installed), and 2 small screws to remove the cover over the memory slot. Even if you don't know what you are doing, it doesn't take more than 10 minutes.

In fact, I think there is a diagram on the bottom of the keyboard to help you. There are definitely directions in the owners manual.

Re:128MB?

[Fugly]

Actually, while normally outrageously expensive, apple memory happens to be pretty cheap right now. You can double the ram in any system for $40. Bumping the TiBook from 512MB of RAM to a gig of RAM for $40 sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me. Bumping the 256MB iBook to 512MB for $40 doesn't sound bad either.

Re:128MB?

[nizcolas]

I have 384 mb in my iMac DV SE [got a deal on a 256 stick] and it runs well enough. The problem on my machine isn't with memory, it's with 10.2 deciding to chew up my processor whenever I try and run more than 6 things. I suppose I could fix the problem by running less apps. ;')

Re:128MB?

[Mononoke]

In fact, I think there is a diagram on the bottom of the keyboard to help you.

The directions for removing the keyboard are under the keyboard??? Wow!

(I know what you meant. I'm just silly.)

Re:128MB?

[Phrogz]

...and since cracking an iBook or PowerBook open can be a little daunting...

I can't speak for the the iBook, but as for the PowerBook: Daunting? For your mother, yes. But IMO it's as easy or easier to install RAM in a PowerBook (G3 Bronze or G4 Ti) than it is to install in a PowerMac tower. No kidding, honestly. Much as I'd love to see Apple succeed, don't buy additional RAM from Apple where the markup is HUGE. Get your own for 1/3 the price or so and drop that second chunk in yourself.

Re:128MB?

[MasonMcD]

Apple promotion until Dec. 31 is $40 to double memory.

http://store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/promo_d oubleyourmemory.html

Re:128MB?

[Tim12s]

The same applies to win2k.

I've got an AMD XP1800+ and 384mb of memory. This became a necessity as 128mb seriously isnt enough. With more than 128, it runs fine, but i've got no idea what they did between 98 and 2k. In 2k, i could get a memory footprint of about 40meg or less.

Either way, memory is cheap.

-Tim

Re:128MB?

[dhovis]

Actually, they bump the 256MB iBook to 640MB for $40, because you can't actually configure an iBook with 512MB.

I agree, though. $40 to take the TiBook to a gig is a steal. Especially since the 512MB in the TiBook means 2x256MB, so you have to replace both modules to get to 1GB.

Re:128MB?

[Spencerian]

I have, quite a bit. I'm a service tech. But I don't recommend users to do laptop hardware changes. Too risky to screw up, even on a Mac. If they want to do it, OK.

Re:128MB?

[Anonymous Coward]

MacMall has the new iBooks in stock. $944 plus free extra 256MB RAM and free printer.

Re:128MB?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm typing this on an iBook w/ 128MB RAM right now. The OS is very responsive, even when I have 5 or 6 apps open at the same time. This is OS X 10.2. I have not found 10.2 to be more memory hungry than WinXP. It seems that the prevailing opinion may be just that. If you're curious, stop by an Apple store and try one out before you by.

Re:128MB?

[Trillan]

I'll add, of course, that 128MB uses less power than 256MB, which is important for laptops.

Well, I doubt that actually. A user with 128MB is going to hit the hard disc swap file a lot more frequently than one with 256MB.

Re:128MB?

[ciryon]

I agree. Have a iBook 700 with 384 MB RAM, but removed the 256 MB module temporarily since I suspect something's wrong with it. Running on 128 MB only is horrible. I can only have one or two apps open at the same time and everything loads just so slow.

Can't understand why Apple still ships computers running OS X and only put 128 MB RAM.

Ciryon

Re:128MB?

[giblfiz]

I'll add, of course, that 128MB uses less power than 256MB, which is important for laptops.

sorry, not in a modern memory management system. Rather than "run out" of memory (like the mac's would in os 9) the os will simply start useing a swap file (that is useing some of the hard disk as memory)

doing anything with a hard disk consumes much more power than ram could ever dream of useing so even though the extra memory would draw a little current not haveing to go to swap will save a lot of energy.

Re:128MB?

[dwightk]

The low end PowerBook comes with 256 MB, The High end with 512...
You can also double your RAM for $40

There is no Powerbook that has only 128MB.

Re:128MB?

[Large Green Mallard]

The ibooks are a bit of a pain to open the first time.. Apple puts the screws in REALLY tight, and they're tiny. I bought a special screwdriver just for ibook RAM cover removing. Of course, I've since used it on about 5 ibooks.

Tibooks are easy to change the RAM in, but due to the price, fewer people have them, so I've only done it to three of them ;) First one I did was my own, in store when I got it.. heh, with two sales people watching me. I made very sure to earth myself on the case first ;p

Re:128MB?

[WiggyWack]

The PowerBooks don't ship with 128MB RAM.

The "Fast" ships with 256MB and the "Faster" and "Fastest" ship with 512MB.

The bottom two iBook configurations ship with 128MB RAM. The third config ships with 256MB and the high end iBook ships with 640MB. (640MB?!)

Re:128MB?

[WozRus]

You can't bump the 256MB iBook to 512MB. It only upgrades 128 to 256 to 384 to 640. If you get double your RAM on the 256MB iBook, Apple doubles it to 640MB.

Re:128MB?

[Anonymous Coward]

The extra ram gives it a longer running time, but a shorter sleep time (or it does on my iBook due to the suspend to ram, more ram == more power usage when only the ram is powered)

Re:128MB?

[Twirlip of the Mists]

OS X 10.0 was really memory hungry, but 10.1 reduced that considerably. Jaguar reduced it still further. You can be perfectly happy with 128 MB if you don't try to do very many things at once. And, of course, the great thing about the VM system in OS X is that you don't constantly swap when you've got too many programs open. Earlier today I had several programs open at once-- Office, Photoshop, Maya, OmniWeb, and lots of little ones-- and I decided to kick off a session of Jedi Knight II. My machine swapped like crazy for about ten seconds while every available memory page was written to disk, and then the game fired right up and ran perfectly. When I quit, my machine swapped like crazy for another ten or fifteen seconds while the whole world got swapped back in, and I was right back where I needed to be.

battery life

[frostycellnex]

This is the computer I've been waiting for--everything I want all in one tight little package. My only question is with regard to that quoted battery life. I'd expect that's an extreme limit, with the lowest possible power consumption configuration. So can I watch an entire DVD on a single battery charge? I'm expecting to be doing some trans-Pacific flights in the near future, and those 18 hours would go by a whole lot faster if I could watch my own movies. For you double-E's out there, I've seen rumors that Apple is working on a new battery, but that it probably wouldn't find it's way into Apple's portables for at least another 6 months (and I presume that's optimistic). What's the likelihood that a new battery would be compatible with the current hardware architecture?

Re:battery life

[geniusj]

Yes.. you can easily watch a dvd on one charge.. I've done it many times, and I usually have about 30-40% left over afterwards. This is on a TiBook 400mhz. I think they actually have improved the batteries themselves since then..

Re:battery life

[locarecords.com]

I own a Powerbook 667 and the battery life is trylu unbelievable. Compared to dell and toshiba laptop battery life it blows them away.

I used to own an iBook but needed the extra screen size and just love the powerbook (I was a little worried it might be too big) but it weighs nothing and look cool.

Recommended!!

Re:battery life

[radish]

If you're flying longhaul they usually have power sockets in the seats. At least I always use them when flying transatlantic.

Re:battery life

[bpbond]

Extra battery is $129 at the Apple store.

Re:battery life

[Anonymous Coward]

Tested recently by a friend:
you can watch two DVDs ("The Sopranos" were used for the test) on the iBook's battery, and still have 20% of charge after that.

Re:battery life

[tincho_uy]

Uhmm... Watching DVD's on a plane? Isn't that forbidden?
You'd be better off ripping them to DivX :)

Re:battery life

[Arker]

Yeah, I think you're right, 5 hours is pretty optimistic. My TiBook (with the G4 of the beast, 666Mhz ;) usually gives me about 3 hours, of course I am very hard on batteries, I always get a lot less than quoted. That said, 3 hours is pretty damn good, and if it's not enough an extra battery sets you back only $129.

Re:battery life

[BinxBolling]

So can I watch an entire DVD on a single battery charge?

Yes. Also, if you download something like DVDBackup and use it to copy the DVD to your hard drive before your trip, the Apple DVD player can play it from there, which will probably consume less power than spinning the DVD drive would.

Re:battery life

[fafaforza]

Is it possible to disable the optical drive if you know you won't be using it?

Or does OSX cut off any and all power to it when it isnt being used?

Re:battery life

[Anonymous Coward]

On my TiBook, I can easily watch 2 DVD's, I also find that reducing the brightness of the screen can help considerably the overall battery life.

Re:battery life

[frostycellnex]

Hmm, I wonder if reducing brightness, besides improving battery life, also reduces ocular life....

:)

Re:battery life

[Anitra]

While its battery life is otherwise ok, I can only get through about 1 hour of a DVD on my 600Mhz iBook... I'm beginning to believe the rumor that batteries are designed to purposely discharge faster as they get older. (It's only a year old.)

Re:battery life

[Jon Abbott]

Is it possible to disable the optical drive if you know you won't be using it?

Or does OSX cut off any and all power to it when it isnt being used?

Indeed, OS X automatically powers it down quickly after use. All of the hardware components on the system, and the kernel that drives them, are designed with power management in mind. That's why you can get a good four hours per charge on a Powerbook (Apple claims five, but in real-world use it is more like four).

Re:battery life

[pediddle]

Even in your PC, the drive is powered down unless it is actually spinning a disc, and all drives will stop spinning after some inactivity.

Re:battery life

[tauntalum]

Yep. Your processor is designed get slower, too.

Re:battery life

[Vhalkyrie]

Absolutely. You can watch a full 90 minute movie on a fully charged battery with a little bit of charge to spare. As mentioned in other posts, you can save more battery power by playing it from the harddrive.

Here's something else that's really cool about the battery. In the event you need to swap the battery to a spare, when you get the low power warning, put your laptop to sleep before pulling out the battery (close the lid). You now have approximately 2-3 minutes of reserve power to change the battery! That's an ungodly amount of time to swap out a battery. Most Wintel laptops I know of aren't that forgiving...you have to have a spare already in hand to do a quick swap in record time.

It's the little things that goes into the design.

Slashdot Apple's bitch?

[Matt2000]

Anyone ever noticed how much mundane Apple news gets posted on Slashdot? A minor speed increase on laptops doesn't seem to warrant a full story.

And, if you look in the categories for stories, there are tons of Apple specific categories for no real reason:

Apple Wireless
Apple Hardware
Apple Software
Apple Desktops
iMac
Apple Media
Apple Networking
OS 9
OS X
Apple Utilities

Look, we're in the "Apple Laptop" category for the love of god, what is the deal?

Re:Slashdot Apple's bitch?

[Axiom]

Why is the above post a troll? It's completely true. There is a ridiculous amount of Mac worship going on in Slashdot. Where are the stories about Dell, Sony, Toshiba, etc. releasing new laptops?

Re:Slashdot Apple's bitch?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think, more than the speed increase, the news here is a slot-loading CD/DVD burner in the high-end model.

Re:Slashdot Apple's bitch?

[benedict]

The proliferation of categories is pretty silly,
but ...

this is a unix-focused site to some extent. And
Apple ships more unix than any other manufacturer.
So it stands to reason that we'd talk about them
here.

Re:Slashdot Apple's bitch?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a troll because if you don't want to see any stories about Apple, you can go into your preferences and disable them. Click off all the categories that the person took the time to list, but not to check off.

Where are the stories about Dell, Sony, Toshiba, etc. releasing new laptops?

Check ZDNet or Cnet.

Re:Slashdot Apple's bitch?

[cbuskirk]

Mod Parent Down

You should have every post modded down for having a .sig like that. Besides that your a troll.

Re:Slashdot Apple's bitch?

[Gothmolly]

Because Taco, et. al. all use TiBooks. Can you say "schwag" ?

Re:Slashdot Apple's bitch?

[namespan]

Dell, Sony, Toshiba, etc. releasing new laptops?

Where are the Dell or Toshiba laptops that have anything remarkable about them? TiBooks -- and even iBooks -- have a cool factor that Dell nor Toshiba has ever come close to matching. Sony sometimes does... and you'll note that Vaio laptops sometimes do make slashdot.

Dell and Toshiba build beige boxes. Staid, boring, nothing interesting. Sony and Apple -- whatever else you have to say about them -- are consumer electronics companies with a sense of style. They build great computers to.

Re:Slashdot Apple's bitch?

[Anonymous Coward]

Toshiba's Portege 2000 (pic with dock) was a pretty remarkable laptop. Not sure if that make Slashdot, but it was the first super thin laptop to hit the market. .7" thin.

Saying that, I do think Apple's laptops are the best. VPR Matrix's line come REALLY close, but they were also mentioned on slashdot. (VPR will be my next laptop purchase, I can't let go of Win2k just yet!)

Re:Slashdot Apple's bitch?

[Anonymous Coward]

fag!

Re:Slashdot Apple's bitch?

[Anonymous Coward]

A minor speed increase on laptops doesn't seem to warrant a full story.

This isn't a minor speed bump; They crossed the GHz barrier, which is psychologically significant to some people, and they added the SuperDrive. Also improved the video somewhat.

Re:Slashdot Apple's bitch?

[User 956]

Anyone ever noticed how much mundane Apple news gets posted on Slashdot? A minor speed increase on laptops doesn't seem to warrant a full story.

Honestly, I've been saying the same thing. The closest I can figure, is VA wants to be bought out by Apple.

Re:Slashdot Apple's bitch?

[Squirrel Killer]

Toshiba's Portege 2000 (pic with dock) was a pretty remarkable laptop.

So remarkable that it earned a 5.8 out of 10 "Mediocre" score?

-sk

Still missing...

[TechScared]

They are still missing USB 2.0 support. They are missing from most of the current PC laptops as well but I don't know why Apple didn't include one if they were coming out with *new* ibooks and powerbooks. Also, one another complaint I have on most laptops including a Dell I recently purchased is that even though I have essentially a portable DVD player which can hook up to a TV/Projecter, etc via S-Video, it doesn't contain a digital out and I'm stuck with stereo out. You would think multimedia conscious(whatever that means) Apple would think of these things...

I guess nothing is perfect.

Re:Still missing...

[mlilback]

Hardware level changes like firewire b and usb 2 won't happen until next year, when Apple hardware will no longer boot into Mac OS 9. Otherwise, they'd have to update 9 to support the new hardware.

And the powerbook does have a digital out (DVI). You have to use a converter to get VGA.

And I expect to see usb2 and firewire b on desktops before laptops. I'd look for new desktops early next year with these features.

Re:Still missing...

[paradesign]

i believe you can do digital out over usb and i know you can do stereo 2.1. some mac speaker kits only hook up this way, the isub comes to mind. and i believe harmen kardon makes a usb to optical convertor to hook your comp up to the stereo thats usb and 5.1 i think. its also mac and pc compatable as well as expensive, 140 i think.

as for usb 2, it competes too much with firewire, an existing mac standard interface, ading it would only complicate the device. it dosent make business sense for apple although it would be a nice feature.

Re:Still missing...

[Lev13than]

In case it's not clear, the DVI-VGA adapter is included in the box when you buy the laptop. Same with the SVGA-Composite adapter. You do, however, have to spring for the DVI-ADC.

Re:Still missing...

[Fugly]

as for usb 2, it competes too much with firewire, an existing mac standard interface, ading it would only complicate the device. it dosent make business sense for apple although it would be a nice feature.

Um, USB was brought to market and standardized largely by Apple. You could by a mac with USB ports off the shelf probably 2 years before you could find it built into a new PC. We'll see both USB 2 and Firewire 2 on future macs, guaranteed...

Re:Still missing...

[jht]

This doesn't represent a major redesign (neither do the windtunnel G4 towers). The only major changes are faster speed and better video coming from the same basic logic board and chipset.

I'm not expecting Apple to do a lot WRT USB 2.0, really - they're firmly in the FireWire camp. But I do think they'll start integrating Bluetooth when they do their next logic board refresh/redesign. Hopefully they'll add digital out at that point, too.

Re:Still missing...

[ellboy]

Um, USB was brought to market and standardized largely by Apple. You could [buy] a mac with USB ports off the shelf probably 2 years before you could find it built into a new PC.

This is flat-out wrong. USB ports were included on PCs years before the iMac came out. There just wasn't any OS support for them until Win98 came out. People, please check your facts before posting something as if it is fact.

Re:Still missing...

[gozar]

Um, USB was brought to market and standardized largely by Apple. You could by a mac with USB ports off the shelf probably 2 years before you could find it built into a new PC.

Correction, almost all PC's since around 96-97 have shipped with USB ports, it's just that until the iMac came out, hardware manufacturers still relied on using the serial/parallel ports. And it didn't help that Win95 didn't support USB untill version 95B, and even then it was shakey.

Re:Still missing...

[Fugly]

This is flat-out wrong. USB ports were included on PCs years before the iMac came out. There just wasn't any OS support for them until Win98 came out. People, please check your facts before posting something as if it is fact.

Ok, you're probably right. I'm probably getting the availability of peripherials confused with the availablility of ports. Also, I'm probably remembering stuff based on my own personal upgrade path between my macs and PCs.

Regardless, I do feel that apple was the company that did more to bring USB off the drawing table and to market than anybody. When the iMac was released, USB was the only way to hook anything up to it. USB exploded. Even long after I finally had USB ports on my PC, I had trouble finding devices that used them. The idea that apple is somehow going to do an about face and not support USB 2.0 or that they grudgingly supported USB in the first place is absurd. Apple loves USB.

I don't think Firewire was ever really meant to compete with USB either. I think it was meant specifically for a few high speed applications (external drives and dv). You don't see apple making firewire mice or keyboards. It's not what the format was made for.

Re:Still missing...

[Hawthorne01]

I guess I'm the only one that remembers that for months after the intro of the iMac, the only USB periphials you could buy were all Bondi Blue, which led to many slightly funny scenes of a bland beige WinTel box hooked up to a bright blue printer.... :)

The above post is 100% right. While USB was available for PC's first, very little was made for them. It took the iMac with it's adherence to USB and (gasp!) no floppy to really jump-start the market.

Worth it?

[natron 2.0]

I will honestly say that I do not know alot about Macs. After looking at the specs I must say that if I was in the market for a notebook I would definately have to go with the PowerBook. It looks sleek and has alot of great features. Thumbs up to Mac!**

**I did not realize it but this sounded like a Mac Switch Ad.

check out tomshardware; links included

[waspleg]

here is a story comparing 6 different radeon cards: http://www.tomshardware.com/graphic/02q4/021104/in dex.html

here is a link to a recent story comparing radeons and geforces:

http://www.tomshardware.com/graphic/02q4/021024/ in dex.html

i consider tomshardware to be one of the best, most honest/accurate/valuable publications available online today (no i don't work for them)... i've used their advice to buy countless components and several full machines and have never been disappointed; they save me the work of scouring 30 different news sites and making my own balanced unbiased opinion because Tom's already is.

Re:check out tomshardware; links included

[jerrytcow]

ummm...did you even read the link you posted. It compares 6 different 9700s. The powerbook has a 9000, and I don't think this card will fit in my laptop anyway.

It might be usefull to link to chips actually used in the laptops mentioned.

Re:check out tomshardware; links included

[BinxBolling]

Perhaps the original poster was trying to link to this article. The article is about the Radeon 9000 Mobility, but it includes a Radeon 9000 vs. Radeon 7500 vs. GeForce performance comparison.

Re:check out tomshardware; links included

[waspleg]

he was talking about the chipsets, which are incarnated in the cards

did you read the articles? i have

check the benchmarks

Don't forget the iBook in all of this...

[rjstanford]

If you don't mind the 1024x768 display (and its a great screen, good antialiasing etc), the new low-end iBook is quite a deal. From apple.com, a 700mhz G3 (faster than PIII-800s seen in many low-end notebooks) with 640mb RAM (OSX is pretty memory intensive) can be yours for $1189. That's getting nicely price-competitive with Dell, etc on the low end.

A somewhat nicer model with the 800mhz G3, a DVD-ROM/CD-RW drive and the same 640mb of RAM lists for $1489. That gets you a very potent UN*X box with a lot of wonderful features, a lovely OS, and a massively high portability level.

All this, and an amazing attention to detail as well. Really, switching to Apple is like moving from Chevy to BMW. Sure it may not stack up on paper (horsepower per dollar, etc) but you can end up with an incredibly friendly machine that's a pure pleasure to use! Do yourself a favor and go check 'em out if you've been on the fence.

Re:MegaHertz Myth!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Just a question, Apple Rates the G4 1Ghz at 7.5 Gigaflops. Intel doesn't release this info that I can find. Does anybody Have an idea what a the top end MOBILE x86 chip is capable of?

Buying an apple

[glh]

I just can't help but wonder why everyone seems to be so excited about Macs. If you ever want to run the latest game on that "other" OS, you can't really do it on Mac without paying a premium and/or having to wait forever for it to come out. And not just games, but other software too.

Dell has a comparable deal that is $999 for an Inspiron 2650, comes with a free hard drive upgrade and a CD-burner (or DVD) upgrade. Not only that, but you get some really great tech support. And no, I don't work for dell. I just can't understand what all this jazz about getting an Apple is.

Sure the Mac has cool looking hardware, but beyond that is there really a compelling reason for techies/nerds to switch from Intel/AMD based machines?? I can't think of any real good reasons.

This is really not a troll, I'm just trying to understand what the hoopla is. Please enlighten me!!

Re:Buying an apple

[geniusj]

Well.. Besides the fact that the hardware design isn't bad at all .. The reason is: MacOS X.. 'Nuff said.

Re:Buying an apple

[glh]

What would you say is better about MacOS X vs. RedHat Linux? I'm guessing the window environment.. (does it use X Windows?). I really don't know much about OSX. Anything else?

Re:Buying an apple

[mrpuffypants]

no, of course you don't have to switch...I'm not forcing you =]

but you should take a look at them if you get the chance; I suggest the Apple stores, they are great ground for getting the "street cred" that Apple desperately needs

and finally, regarding games, that used to be the main reason that I have my WinXP desktop. Now, though, that id has released PR1.32 for Quake 3 that is fully OS X compatible, i think i'm finally ready to say good-bye forever to windows as my primary OS...I've really only been keeping it around for gaming anyway

Re:Buying an apple

[Gizzmonic]

Dell has a comparable deal that is $999 for an Inspiron 2650, comes with a free hard drive upgrade and a CD-burner (or DVD) upgrade. Not only that, but you get some really great tech support. And no, I don't work for dell.

I have a friend who works tech support for Dell, and even he would take exception to your claims of "great tech support." They've laid off a ton of people since the economy went south. If you call Dell tech support, be prepared to wait on hold for 30 minutes.

Re:Buying an apple

[KalenDarrie]

Well, the reasons are largely in the interface. The core itself is BSD. If you want facts one what's in it, check here: http://www.apple.com/macosx/.

For the most part, I'd not use RH cause I don't feel like relearning all I would need to so I could get it running just right and replicate all I can do easily right out of the box with OSX.

Re:Buying an apple

[LordNimon]

There's a lot to learn, and also a lot to love, about OS X. I suggest you do some research on your own, because I couldn't do it justice here. The easiest thing to do would be to pay more attention to the Apple articles here on Slashdot.

I can sum it up, though: Apple has managed to do what Linux has tried and so far failed: bring Unix to the masses, and do it in an amazing way.

Re:Buying an apple

[drcodey]

OS X is an incredible unix environment AND the window environment is not X Windows(x windows is trash). The window environment is amazing. It looks great and it works really really well. It feels much better than windows IMO.

Re:Buying an apple

[Quixadhal]

Simple. They work.

Seriously, I have (and will likely always have to have) a PC to play games. But that's all I do with it. Every time I start trying to actually USE the machine it ends up leaking memory like a water faucet with no washers, and eventually insists on a reboot (either voluntarily because it's sucking molassas, or pre-emptively via blue-screen-of-death).

I work on a linux desktop at work, and never have stupid problems like that. Why should I accept less at home? Yes, I can run linux on the thing, but then I still have to reboot when I want to play games.... kindof defeats the purpose.

If I could wave a magic wand and make game developers write cross-platform code, maybe I could fully shake the Microsoft Addiction that plagues me and gives my hardware the shakes... but until then, I'd rather have an OS X desktop to do real work on, a linux/BSD server to handle mail and network issues, and a Windoze box to play games that I can't get for the PS2 (Hey Blizzard, why not release Diablo II for the Playstation, now that they have network cards?)

Note that I'm not being super-pro-mac here. The fact is, the underlying BSD core is what makes it so stable (run OS 9 for a bit if you doubt that), but the Aqua desktop is as fine a GUI as I could wish for and seems a bit less bloated than a normal X11 server. My only real gripe is the continued default of one mouse button. :)

Re:Buying an apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Do Macs run Dungeon Siege, Half-Life, Medieval Total War, Real War, etc. yet? These are a few games I've bought and like to play and I wouldn't want to switch unless they are supported. At LEAST Half-Life since I can't do without a counter-strike fix every week. Of course the answer is no, Half-Life isn't supported which is why I'm still running Win2k and will never buy a Mac until the last WON server is shut off and counter-strike is no longer available. God I am so fucking addicted.

Re:Buying an apple

[Blondie-Wan]

No, I don't think you're a troll; it sounds like you're posing honest, legitimate questions. As a Mac person, I hope I can answer some of them to your satisfaction.

I just can't help but wonder why everyone seems to be so excited about Macs. If you ever want to run the latest game on that "other" OS, you can't really do it on Mac without paying a premium and/or having to wait forever for it to come out. And not just games, but other software too.

Lamentably, games are indeed one of the big areas of lag. Even so, there are plenty of games out there for the Mac - far more than any normal person could find time to play. How many games do you need? The delay associated with some games (not all - there are some simultaneous releases, and even a tiny number of Mac-firsts) can be a drag at times, but it also has silver linings - sometimes our first release of a game is of the "gold edition" with extra maps and whatnot, so people who buy the game right away still get all the extra trimmings without paying extra or rebuying the game down the road; also, sometimes the initial PC releases are deeply bug-ridden, but by the time they make it to us the bugs have been squashed. Neither of these is a reason to game on the Mac, to be sure, but they do at least illustrate it's not all bad. For what it's worth, I can personally attest that the Mac gaming scene is substantial enough to be satisfying. Others do disagree, but I think the worst problem with the Mac gaming scene is that certain specific genres of games (like sports games, which I don't play but I'm aware many love) are sorely underrepresented. Unless you're into a type of game that isn't well-represented on the Mac, though, I think you can find your gaming fix here.

As for other software, pretty much every kind of thing you'd want to do with a computer can be done on a Mac, and frequently with the same software you'd use on a Wintel machine. There are even lots of Mac-only releases, and there are plenty of general tasks that are almost certainly easier on the Mac than on any PC (DVD authoring, for example).

Dell has a comparable deal [dell.com] that is $999 for an Inspiron 2650, comes with a free hard drive upgrade and a CD-burner (or DVD) upgrade. Not only that, but you get some really great tech support. And no, I don't work for dell. I just can't understand what all this jazz about getting an Apple is.

Well, it's certainly true that despite Apple's best efforts there is a price delta between Macs and PCs, and one can usually get a PC for less money than a Mac of identical or near-identical specs, but that gap is probably narrower than one would think, and many of us feel it's justified by the ease-of-use alone, not to mention other arguments I'll mention at the end of this post. You also mention tech support; for what it's worth, some would argue Apple's support beats Dell's, and most other vendors' for that matter.

Sure the Mac has cool looking hardware, but beyond that is there really a compelling reason for techies/nerds to switch from Intel/AMD based machines?? I can't think of any real good reasons.

Ok, here are a few of those other reasons I mentioned earlier:

- it's not Windows, and one can be as free of M$ as one wants on a Mac (yet at the same time, one can use lots of M$ apps if one really wants to, for some ungodly reason)

- the most games of any non-M$ platform

- software and hardware integration, ease-of-use, and intuitiveness that (arguably) surpasses all other platforms

- minimal DRM issues (so far, anyway - cross those fingers ;)

- friendly to average Joes and hardcore geeks alike

- yes, you said it... style

- strength / dominance in certain notable computing applications & markets (graphics & media, biotech, education)

- arguably the most enjoyable platform-specific trade shows in the industry ;) (Ok, reaching here, but I thought I'd mention it :)

- longevity / resale value of old hardware (less of a consideration than it used to be, it seems, but still notable)

There are more factors, I think, but I believe that should be enough to start with.

This is really not a troll, I'm just trying to understand what the hoopla is. Please enlighten me!!

I hope this helps! :)

Re:Buying an apple

[Eravau]

The "window environment" is definately cleaner than an X-Windows system. "Aqua," which is pretty much the entire OS X interface outside of the command-line is more integrated with the entire system than any GUI on Linux. But then Apple has always made it possible (up 'til OS X, mandatory) to cover the underpinnings of the OS and do everything from the GUI. That's still possible, but not not mandatory. so I guess better integration and consistancy between the GUI and the nuts 'n' bolts is a big plus.

As I said, OS X doesn't use X-windows, but with the unix underpinnings, X-Windows was quickly ported to OS X. So you can actually be running X-Windows apps...along side Aqua/OS X-native apps...along side of command-line apps...with no problems.

Re:Buying an apple

[WatertonMan]

Just to point out though, the Mac ports often are inferior to the PC versions. For instance frame rates for animations are almost always much lower. I'm not sure why that is, but if gaming were a high priority for me I don't think I'd go for the Mac.

However I think that for many people such things aren't a big priority. Personally I just bought an XBox and played Halo instead of worrying about Warcraft or whatever other shooter is around. But then I'm not a huge gamer. Most of the games I like are more strategy like Go or a few other more "thinking" games for the Mac.

Re:Buying an apple

[chriswaco]

Apple's tech support rated higher than Dell in the most recent survey from PC World:

http://www.pcworld.com/resource/printable/articl e/ 0,aid,105854,00.asp

Re:Buying an apple

[axxackall]

What kind of answer will you get questioning alcoholic people to compare a health impact of alcohol vs pure water?

What do you expect to hear in a macosx-biased forum?

Re:Buying an apple

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

I'm a web developer/designer. And I also do graphic design, photography, and mulimedia.

OS X has it all in one, and done well. Sure, you can install Apatche etc on windows, but I've developed something on windows, only to find it not work quite right on a UNIX box (which is where it will end up most 99% of the time). It just makes things easier when you know your developing on the same platform the webapp will run.
And that platform being UNIX, it also has a few nice features that Windows doesn't have (little things like hardlinks etc).

The iTunes is brilliant. I was a hardcore Winamp fan (before Winamp 3 that it). And never liked the look of iTunes...Untill I used it.
Apple seems to be carrying this innivation thoughout all there iApps, hopefully this will continue.

I also find the GUI is better, and much nicer to look at (which it important when you have to see it all day long). Of course, it still has major issues which I won't go into. But Apple seem like a company which will do it's best to imporve the OS. Unlike MS, who seem to just do anything that might bring in more $. In general, their GUI is still much bette thabn anything else around (in terms of usability and looks).

Why not Linux? At the moment, the lack of apps that I use etc (sorry, GIMP is great for a lot of stuff, but it's deffinitly not a replacement for 'power' photoshop users).
There's also GUI, which I won't go into.

...Oh yeah. And Microsoft with their DRM et. al. make me want to jump ship as quick as possable.

Re:Buying an apple

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm going to be honest here, up front, I work for Apple as a Tech Support agent in one of their call centers. That being said, I hope that doesn't affect how people interpret my post.

I'm sure most of the Slashdot crowd are smart enough to figure out their own problems, but if Tech Support is a deciding factor in purchasing any type of system, I'd like to point out some interesting facts...

For the last two years, Consumer Reports has rated Apple Computers #1 in terms of Service and Support. The latest report can be found here (I hope that link works). Apple beat Dell by a significant margin, not to shabby.

Also, a recent reader survey by PC World, found here, listed Apple with the best Tech Support marks among PC suppliers. I'll put in the stipulation that I'm not sure what percentage of PC World's readers are Mac users, but I found the survey results relevant and ironic.

Now, if you want to talk about the price on an Apple laptop versus a PC laptop, discounting the hardware specs that everyone seems to focus on during these discussions, I'd like to point out that a Powerbook or an iBook similarly configured to some Dell laptop still has an edge in the software department. Out of the box, all Apple computers come with the "iApps" as well as AppleWorks, and some other third party applications. That may not be of interest to everyone, but to a lot of consumers, being able to make your own movie and such and then burn it to DVD, virtually seamlessly, all with a consistant and easy-to-understand interface... that's a big selling point to some, and as I stated earlier, all Apple computers ship with this software (well, iDVD only ships with SuperDrive enabled Macs, but that should make sense). Value is not determined wholy by hardware alone, and Apple has a really great total package.

Well, I think I may have probably spent more time rambling than I should have, but to add a little more info about myself so I don't sound like a total Mac Evangelist... I've been using PCs for more than half my life, and I used to be a Mac-basher, but I was lured by Mac OS X and the pretty PowerBook, and I have not looked back since making the "switch." Oh yeah, obviously I'm partial to Apple Tech Support since I work for them, but then again, why not be proud of doing a good job... right?

Re:Buying an apple

[hype7]

Well, meaning to or not, you were trolling. I could tell you were trolling as soon as I saw this:

Not only that, but you get some really great tech support.

Latest PC World tech service scorecard: Last year, PC World readers told us they were unhappy with technical support. This year's survey shows little--if any--improvement. Dell, for example, tumbled in service overall--especially in hold times. The other big news: Apple rated higher than any other computer maker.

There are plenty of other reasons posted, but I just thought I'd pick up on that.

-- james

Re:Buying an apple

[Twirlip of the Mists]

The iTunes is brilliant.

Agreed. I have a medium-sized library of MP3s, ripped from my library of about 300 CDs. iTunes tells me that my library amounts to 14.7 days of music, comprised of 4,922 songs. (Over 23 GB, if you're wondering.) The only tool I need to manage it all is iTunes. It sorts and organizes my files on disk for me, and lets me browse by artist, album, or genre. It never takes me more than about two seconds to find the precise song I'm after out of the nearly 5,000 in the library. And even with all those songs, it still launches in one bounce.

iTunes is definitely a killer app for the Mac.

Re:Buying an apple

[glh]

Well, meaning to or not, you were trolling. I could tell you were trolling as soon as I saw this:

Not only that, but you get some really great tech support.

I was referring to their on-line tech support, not calling in. You can download the manual, any driver you need, etc. for whatever system you purchase. I find that very useful and great, no matter what some magazine tells me. Dell may not be what they used to be, but they are still a good company to buy from.

If you have something constructive to say, please say it.. How about "Apples support is better than dells because..." not "Dell's support sucks because I found this cool link on an article to back my view up". I think you're the one trolling!

Re:Buying an apple

[glh]

Thanks for taking the time to respond! That really helps. I suppose if I were to get a Mac, it wouldn't be for gaming. It seems like there are far more better things to do on a Mac based on your post anyway :)

It seems like most people that I know who have used Mac's really enjoy them. Unfortunately most of those people have been non-techies and usually graphics designers. It's interesting to see that Macs as you say, are friendly to "average Joes and hardcore geeks alike".

As far as software goes, since it is a Unix OS, can you run just about anything GNU on it? For example- will I be able to run everything I can run from my linux box on there (such as GIMP in X, or emacs and gcc in console).

Re:Buying an apple

[hype7]

I was referring to their on-line tech support, not calling in. You can download the manual, any driver you need, etc. for whatever system you purchase. I find that very useful and great, no matter what some magazine tells me. Dell may not be what they used to be, but they are still a good company to buy from.

I think you'll find there's nothing there that Apple doesn't provide. Apple's support page.

I wasn't trolling, but you didn't specify online support, you just said great tech support. Tech support to most people implies you actually speak to a living human being. Dell's tech support is going head first down the gurgler.

-- james

As someone I know said...

[Veldcath]

Apple's laptops make a heck of a lot of sense. Sure, they're a little more expensive, but they're good, quality hardware, look great, work pretty much flawlessly. People complain about Macs being closed as far as upgrade paths go, but most laptops are closed in the PC world too, so it's really not all that much different when comparing portable apples and oranges.

I, for one, am absoultely drooling over those new iBooks... My old Indigo G3/366 is really starting to show its age when it's compared to things like this...

Price points remain about the same?

[Glyndwr]

No they don't, the iBooks are $200 cheaper across the range. As I mentioned in my submitted Slashdot story. Which was rejected. Not that I'm bitter.

I'm convinced, anyway; the midrange iBook looks very compelling to me. All the OSS stuff I need plus Powerpoint without rebooting. I'll hopefully be ordering one later.

Re:Price points remain about the same?

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's see....

Yesterday the 14" iBook was $1,499.

Today the 14" iBook is $1,599.

How is this $200 cheaper????

Re:Price points remain about the same?

[Van Halen]

Troll, or just stupid? I can't decide. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just didn't look closely enough.

Take a look at google's cache from the Apple Store. Previously we had:

• $1199 600 MHz 12"
• $1249 Custom Built 600 MHz 12" (adds DVD drive)
• $1499 700 MHz 12"
• $1799 700 MHz 14"

I don't see any 14" model for $1499.

Today we have:

• $999 700 MHz 12" ($200 less)
• No low end Custom Built
• $1299 800 MHz 12" ($200 less)
• $1599 800 MHz 14" ($200 less)
• $1849 800 MHz 14" Custom Built with more stuff (no previous equivalent)

Works out, huh?

Looks Cheap to Me

[KalenDarrie]

Considering a quick look at Dell and Gateway reveal only one laptop from Dell that's $899, I think $999, the most affordable iBook Apple has, as being well within the reach of anyone who is considering getting a laptop and can budget it.

Or is 100 dollars that much an issue?

If nothing else, Apple is improving hteir price points gradually.

Re:Looks Cheap to Me

[NDPTAL85]

The problem with Apple is you have to buy their top of the line systems to get speed parity with moderately priced current PC systms. I don't want to hear any MHz Myth talk. A $899 iBook will NOT compare in speed favorably. with a $999 laptop from Dell.

So the point is, yeah you can get cheap Macs. They'll just be unbearably slow Macs as well.

Re:Looks Cheap to Me

[MoneyT]

Go use a mac for a little bit and then think about that post. Believe me, for a student or someone who isn't doing rendering and kernel compiles on their laptop, the iBook is more than enough laptop.

Re:Looks Cheap to Me

[NDPTAL85]

My main computer is a Powerbook G3 Wallstreet that started out with a 233Mhz G3 and has been upgraded to a 500Mhz G3. I could upgrade it to a 500Mhz G4 but whats the point? It also now has 512mb of RAM. I use OS X on it.

Actually the high end G4 is 1.25GHz

[BoomerSooner]

However all that really matters any more is how does the computer meet your needs for a system.

Personally I wish Apple would release a Handheld and Tablet style Mac. This would make me switch my software completely to Mac. I'm not fond of trying to sell an Apple based solution using Windows for the Tablet/Handheld part. Seems like I'm contradicting myself when I'm saying Apple is better.

However when I charge 1/10th the fee for supporting an Apple as compared to a PC, people tend to notice.

Re:Actually the high end G4 is 1.25GHz

[Anonymous Coward]

So what you are saying is that you don't know how to use a PC and have to outsource it to a REAL support person. Yep, I'm quite sure that that your customers notice. You probably use filemaker pro too.

-M

You are missing...

[Anonymous Coward]

just one word. FIREWIRE. You need USB 2 for what again?

Re:You are missing...

[Anonymous Coward]

Connecting to peripherals I can actually buy, instead of paying the Apple Patent Tax which you have to do for every Firewire device.

USB 2.0?

[Gizzmonic]

Why doesn't Apple start putting USB 2.0 in its machines? I doubt that it's much more expensive than USB 1.1 or whatever they're using. Is it sour grapes from Intel muscling in on Firewire (USB 2.0 has been adopted very quickly by PC motherboard manufacturers). Firewire isn't going anywhere (DV is the killer app that will keep it alive). But it would sure be nice to have access to USB 2.0 stuff like high-end scanners. And I'm sure peripheral manufacturers don't like having to choose between a firewire and USB 2.0 interface for everything.

Re:USB 2.0?

[Anonymous Coward]

One item being overlooked is that the performance of USB 2 is in practice no better in throughput than Firewire due to overhead. Also- Firewire is driven by a controller and devices can be daisychained whereas USB 2 is driven by the CPU (no Veloctiy Engine to help out here) and that is one area where the x86s have much more to spare.
Then finally, why would Apple put a technology that competes with their own on one of their products? They sell Firewire as a FEATURE. Putting a USB 2 port on would be saying "well sure, we think firewire's a lot better, butwe'llgoaheadandputoneofthosecrappyusb2sonayway. "

Please! The horse is starting to decay

[Lizard_King]

Haven't been reading Slashdot in a while, eh? Over the last year, this discussion is rehashed almost every day... Search apple.slashdot.org for answers to your questions.

Horse is dead, let's move on.

Re:Please! The horse is starting to decay

[glh]

No, I read slashdot every day. I've just ignored most of the mac articles until now.. care to provide any direct links?

Re:Please! The horse is starting to decay

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it really that hard to search apple.slashdot.org?

Re:Please! The horse is starting to decay

[Lizard_King]

jeez... here's the search page for slashdot:

select "Apple" from the Topics menu. Start searching away for relevent topics. You should probably include words like "switch", "OS X", "guide", etc.

RTFM

Re:Please! The horse is starting to decay

[ahknight]

Ahh. Dead horses. Sig is finally appropriate! Wheee!!!

Linux iBooks?

[Fembot]

Is it still not possible to get hardware acceleration working with an iBook and linux? cos last time I checked it wasnt

Re:Linux iBooks?

[raulmazda]

With this new round of ibooks I'd be more concerned with being able to put it to sleep than with getting hardware accel working.

This new rev of ibooks ships with the ATI Mobility 7500 chipset. The ppc kernel hackers are waiting on help from ATI to get it to play nice when put to sleep. From what they say, ATI is pretty responsive for x86 linux stuff, but they're pretty silent when it comes to "mac" ATI cards.

Memory sizing and OS X

[benedict]

My personal experience has been that unless I use
Classic, 192MB is sufficient. Which is not to say
that more isn't better -- I can sometimes use all
512MB on my own Mac. And mileage may vary by
workload.

That's hillarious

[xintegerx]

I've never thought of that! But your laptop will still be the same region as where you bought it (and set it to.)

Say what you will about processor speed...

[mtec]

but I've used a (current) top'o the line TiBook - and it flies. I'm not talking about benchmarks (I know - sacrilege here), just how it feels. The tech-lust gene kicks in a big way when you have your hands on the keyboard. you feel like you're piloting a titanium Lear jet. I know this sounds like a commercial (modders, do your worst..), but the combination of the Ti and the iPod is like a dream come true for me (more so when I upgrade my 550). OS X - Classic - Unix - Virtual PC - and with 6 (count 'em) SIX - unabridged books (from Audible.com) in my iTunes which autosync (and bookmark my spot!) to iPod ranging from A.C. Clarke to business to Ayn Rand.

Closest I've come to tech Nirvana...

Sorry...I'm tech drunk - I've said too much - (but you're some of the few people in the world who can understand).
Forgive me.

iBook lover

[foo fighter]

I got an iBook for my wife. It's an early Dual USB with a 500MHz G3, 128MB RAM, and only a regular CD-ROM. I have it running OS 9.1 until my copy of OS X 10.2 arrives. (I'm setting up wireless this weekend).

I didn't mean to, but I've fallen in love with the thing. I have a PII 266 running Windows 2000 as my main machine and a P120 running Redhat 7.2 as my network server at home. At work I'm a sysadmin with several GHz+ machines running various systems.

It certainly knocks the socks off any of the IBM, Dell, and Gateway laptops we have at work. My wife loves it as a desktop replacement even though the screen is a little small.

I can't even really explain why the iBook is so much better. The aesthetic is certainly part of it: the machine looks beautiful. But it is also nice to use. I don't fight with it to get things set up. Software installation is so easy I just about shit my pants while reinstalling the OS and installing Office. As a whole it just feels better than Win32 or Linux. OS9 and Office 2k1 "feel" smoother and better than Windows and Office 2k.

I definetly don't notice the 500MHz as being too slow and haven't heard any complaints from my wife. It's great for the games she plays on it, and definetly more than enough for photo editing, tune ripping and mixing, and the web browsing she does. Having a faster, newer model would be nice, but I don't think not having a G4 is limiting by any means.

So my wife is happy she has her own computer to use, and that it is so much better to use than Windows 2000 was. I've fallen in love with Apple, and my next machine will probably be a PowerMac tower to replace my Windows box or a Xserve to replace my RedHat box.

A small survey for slashdot

[brandonsr]

Over the past years, I have been increasingly interested in Apples' line of computers and laptops. But, years before that I swore off Apple for good as I sit at one of the older terminals in my middle school. I've been a PC user since I was born, but damn, look at the specs on the new laptops, and how fast G4's are. So, I'm curious. Has anyone else had any strange inklings of conversion to apple as of late?

Re:A small survey for slashdot

[aftk2]

Yep! *g*

Re:A small survey for slashdot

[finkployd]

I've avoided Apple computers all my life. I have worked with all flavors of Unix (except HP-UX), Windows, DOS, and OS/390 in my short career (I'm 24). However lately I noticed that more and more people have iBooks and tiBooks at meetings, conferences, and generally everywhere I go. I work for a largish university (PSU) and am involved in several consortiums like internet2, Educause, etc.

Lately I gave in and started inquiring what all the fuss was about and learned about OS X and started following apple a little closer. Well, to make a long story short, I'm typing this slashdot comment on a flat panel iMac :) So yeah, I never took apple seriously until about a year ago, but now I'm pretty impressed with them and see them making a comeback (if nowhere else, certainly in higher education).

I still use the other operating systems for servers and whatnot, but I will probably end up using OS X as my primary desktop once it gets a little more polished (as cool as it is, it still has a ways to go, but I have no doubt it will get there)

Finkployd

Re:A small survey for slashdot

[miazmaticdotcom]

Somewhat OT, but I find the Unix base to be quite handy often. The GUI is beutiful but someone has yet to make a GUI for useful functions like dynamically loading and unloading drivers.
For example, when Wardriving, kismet which runs on linux, will put any Prism2 WLAN card into monitor mode. However, the dirver for airport cards doesn't use monitor mode, and so you have to wrtei your own driver and unlod the Apple80211 framework to load your own. If someone would build a GUI for things like sudo and distributed.net then more people would consider OS X because it is able to complete many UNIX command line function s under the GUI and escape from ugly shells.
--Miaz

Re:A small survey for slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

yep. After being one hour (1) sitting next to someone at the O'Reilly open source conference taking notes on a titanium PB, I couldn't help it and I got one.

One thing that I love on it and I don't see mentioned are those little things like the sleep mode actually works! and the Airport soft automatically connects to the stronger wireless network (now, just some VoIP and drop my cell phone!); those details show that, in HW, Apple is trying to have 100% perfection (opposite to Dell's 80% attempts).

And soft-wise, fink is a breeze; so you have the Unix/Linux soft + some extra Mac only soft (omniweb, Watson & Mariner for example). It's a computer nirvana.

[Oh, sometimes I needed to rebuild my OS - some experiments gone wrong, beta soft and I should have payed attention to the screen that says Do NOT do this in the fink installer), but even that isn't too painful; you can install a new OS, move the old one, and migrate your soft/users to new OS.

Re:A small survey for slashdot

[deadgoon42]

I too see a lot of Apple stuff floating around on campus. I was surprised to find out how many Mac enthusiasts there are in the Computer Science student body. However, most of the profs are Microsoft thru and thru. Must be all that free software and kickbacks.

Re:A small survey for slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

So then you've worked with A/UX? Interesting that someone who's avoided Apples all of his life can claim to have used apples first attempt at merging *NIX and the mac. Perhaps that was a little white lie when you said all except HP-UX?

http://www.applefritter.com/ui/aux/

Here's the text of a CNET news story on the topic:

[mrpuffypants]

Apple Computer on Wednesday updated its entire portable line, most notably adding its first PowerBook capable of burning DVDs.

The PowerBook line now includes an 867MHz model, available now for $2,299, and a 1GHz model that can both burn and read CDs and DVDs. That model will be available later this month for $2,999.

"This is what our customers have been waiting for," Greg Joswiak, Apple's vice president of hardware marketing, said in a statement. He noted that the new PowerBook is the first notebook with a slot-loading drive that can burn DVDs.

As expected, Apple also bumped up the speed of all of its iBooks by 100MHz while dropping the price of each model by $200. The consumer portables also sport improved graphics now, using ATI Technologies' Mobility Radeon 7500 chip with up to 32MB of graphics memory.

With the faster ATI chip, the iBook can now take advantage of the improved Quartz Extreme graphics engine built into the latest version of Mac OS X.

The three iBook models consist of a $999 model with a 700MHz chip, a 12.1-inch screen, a CD-ROM drive, 128MB of memory and a 20GB hard drive; a $1,299 model with an 800MHz chip, a 12.1-inch screen, a combination CD-rewritable/DVD-ROM drive, 128MB of memory and a 30GB hard drive; and a $1,599 model with an 800MHz chip, a 14-inch screen, a CD-RW/DVD-ROM drive, 256MB of memory and a 30GB hard drive.

As for the PowerBooks, the low-end model comes with a CD-RW/DVD-ROM drive, 256MB of memory and a 40GB hard drive. In addition to the DVD burner, the high-end model includes 512MB of memory, a 60GB hard drive and a preinstalled Airport card for wireless networking.

ptelnet

[ACNeal]

can you use ptelnet from your palm via usb?

Anyone ever try this?

I was going to use my old platinum on my bsd box so I could have a truly headless server in my closet, but never got around to it.

I got ptelnet working with my linux box with mixed results. It was a fun daliance, but I am just wondering if you can use it with the new USB cradles, and if Linux/BSD/OSX allows console access via a USB port.

Re:ptelnet

[dadragon]

Linux can do console access via ptelnet-Palm M500-iBook.

It uses the visor driver in the stock kernel, and the serial device only exists when it's trying to make a connection. You just start the PPP client on the Palm, then the server on the Linux side, and you can telnet. I have not tried it in OSX yet, but it'd likely take a ppp server, and I don't know if that exists on OSX client.

Not sad, good engineering.

[Arker]

The majority of the processing needed in modern pcs is in fact for all the graphics. So it makes perfect sense to have a faster GPU than CPU - that's where the horsepower is needed. Even if you're doing relatively computationally intense work (I run statistical analyses daily) the requirement still don't add up to the level required to run Aqua or WinXPs graphics.

Remember the Amigas? Positively legendary machines, and for good reason, they were designed this way. The CPU wasn't much at all by modern standards, but it was enough to do what it needed to do just fine (and, in all honesty, enough to handle the non-graphical computations done on most pcs to this day.) The Video Toaster was capable of working pretty much independant of the CPU, and it had a lot more horsepower... the end result was a machine that surpassed PCs made many years later in real functional power.

Re:Not sad, good engineering.

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe you should go punch your monkey... you sound stressed.

Re:Not sad, good engineering.

[VertigoAlpha]

Ahh, Amiga. I remember the days. I can't believe that platform didn't catch on, and dos did. Sure, typing in command lines is fun, and gives you a real sense of computer intelligence, but the Amiga was just plain cool. If I had the money I would get one of the new one's, but I dont, being a poor college student and all.

Some Reasons I Hold

[KalenDarrie]

1. Mac OSX: It's Unix at the core with an easy interface and access to the technical guts if you want it. The interface is clean and more intuitive than most.

2. Stability: On average(in my educated opinion in working with both Windows and Macintosh), Macs are more stable and recover from inevitable catastrophe better. There is also the general Total Cost of Ownership argument. Macs h ave, in many trials, proved to have a lower one on average.

3. Respite from Microsoft: Looking at the high proliferation of viruses, the security issues and Microsoft's openly shady business practices, one of my reasons is that I simply don't trust Microsoft.

4. Preference. Just because someone tells you one thing is better, it doesn't mean that it will be best for all.

In general, games are not that much an issue when many Mac users just buy a cheap PC optimized toward gaming for what doesn't come to Mac and do their real work on a Macintosh. To many, PCs seem to equate to toys and I'm not one to argue with that assertion as one of the most common arguments for sticking with Windows is games.

I use Macintosh because I get less aggravation from them. I have a little PC laptop that I use to play games that I can't get on Macintosh. I'm willing to wait to get games on my preferred platform, case in point Neverwinter Nights. The PC version is out with the Mac version pending. But I'll be waiting for the game to come on my platform of choice because I like using Mac better and I want to show support for my platform.

Hope this helped, though I'm sure some could come up with more points. :)

Re:Some Reasons I Hold

[glh]

Thanks for the info-- appreciate your intelligent and friendly response, definitely a breath of fresh air! I may have to make a trip to COMPUSA and play around with one the next time I'm there. A Mac would probably never be my primary system (I'm a developer and use Visual Studio .NET) but it would be nice for some of the other things I dolike pictures, videos, non-ms development, etc.

The virus issue on the MS platform is definitely something that gets me. I just had to reinstall Win2K pro because of a couple IIS let in. Granted, part of that was my fault (left the DMZ open and forgot to shutdown IIS). However, I can't help but wonder once OSX gets more popular that virii will target it.

Re:Some Reasons I Hold

[KalenDarrie]

Never hurts to give a try to the free stuff(walk in and play, that is).

As to the virus question, well.. that's a toss up. Right now Macs don't have a lot of marketshare, so in general there's no reason to target them too much.

And the likelihood of Macintosh becoming significant enough in numbers to target is not too high, to be truthful. I actually hope to remain 'under the radar' so to speak so I don't have to be frantic about getting infected. ;)

Misleading Title

[ReadParse]

OK, now I get it. You mean "they bumped up the speed".

Since a "speed bump" is a bump put into the road for the purpose of slowing traffic, I figured you were reporting on a story about Apple intentionally making PowerBooks slower than they could be. I found that to be a remarkably interesting story, and it turned out to not be that story at all.

Of course, the faster processors are interesting also... anybody know if I can upgrade my PowerBook G4 550 to the faster chip? (probably not). Anyway, just thought I'd point that out.

Re:Misleading Title

[Anonymous Coward]

This is pretty common phraseology in the Mac world, since all we've given for the past few years are these minor little jumps.

Think cocaine, not traffic.

Re:Misleading Title

[NDPTAL85]

Where have you been for the last 10 years? The term "speed bump" has been used to describe moderate speed increases across all ranges of hardware, from Macs, to PC's to servers.

Re:Misleading Title

[Anonymous Coward]

The verb 'to bump' and the compound noun 'speed bump' have little in common.

In the case of computer speed ratings it is possible to 'bump' them in two directions, 'up' or 'down' (normally up) and for that reason we have a handy phrasal verb available to us, 'to bump (something) up or down' (meaning to increase or decrease speed in a small increment).

Sadly Apple HAS been known to bump some of its PowerBook bus speeds DOWN on occasions when 'refreshing' its product lines. I'll never understand why.

Winter in Whistler

[snowlick]

Anyone else see the name on the DVD the next to the laptop on apple.com? it read: "Winter in Whistler". I sense a swipe at Windows XP!

Re:Winter in Whistler

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, I just noticed. Hehehe funny marketing dudes at Apple.

Re:Winter in Whistler

[ealar dlanvuli]

I don't get it?

Re:Winter in Whistler

[Anonymous Coward]

Whistler = codename for WindowsXP

Re:Winter in Whistler

[Tuzanor]

Windows XP was codenamed Whistler when it was still in alpha.

U R N Lightened

[ultraslide]

I have compared many laptops recently. Price is no object. The laptop must be a light as possible, have the longest battery life , at least a 15 inch screen, and a DVD/CDRW (combo) drive.

I have looked at Dells , Sony's, and Apples. Only the Apple offered 4 hour plus battery life. The Dells and Sonys couldn't come close, even with Intel "SpeedSquash" technology.

After adding Virtual PC w/ Win2000 the Apple was only $400 dollars more than the closest competition (Sony Vaio w/ 2 hrs battery life !!!)
Add to that Apples excellent customer service reputation and you've got yer winner.

And it'll run ProTools !!!!!

the 'slide :-)

Myth of the "Working Class"

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple Ibooks are still out of reach for those of us who compromise the working classes

Excuse me, the reason I can afford a Mac is that I work therefore that makes me in the "working class". What you are talking about is that "Slashdot Class" -- a group of people that think its a sin to pay for anything. Which makes the best notebook for you the one found in the dumpster behind a fortune 500 company. Instead of using the Windows 2000 Pro install already on it, you fdisk the harddrive and install Gentoo Linux so you can show it off at your next meeting of the 2600 club complete with Anarchy and Calvin peeing on the Windows logo stickers.

For the rest of us in the "working class", Apple has produced some awesome notebooks at a reasonable fee. Where is the PC Notebook that burns DVDs? What Linux distro supports that?

Re:Myth of the "Working Class"

[Anonymous Coward]

but why does the low-end iBook still only sport a CDROM? Is there a price difference that big for Apple to ship DVDROMs instead?

I also think the no-return policy need to be reevaluated: When I add RAM to the default lowend iBook, should I not be able to return it, when like OS X is ugly with only 128M of RAM(!)

Re:Myth of the "Working Class"

[foyle]

What you are talking about is that "Slashdot Class" -- a group of people that think its a sin to pay for anything.

Including rent - that's why it's cool to live in your parent's basement when you're a l33t h4x0r.

Re:Myth of the "Working Class"

[JonECat]

Actually Sony has had a laptop that can burn DVD's for several months now Take a look here here

Re:Myth of the "Working Class"

[axxackall]

Where is the PC Notebook that burns DVDs? What Linux distro supports that?

Have you tried Gentoo on latest Apple powerbooks?

Yargh

[Squidgee]

And I just bought a 600mhz iBook 2 months ago with all of my money from my summer job...

Coulda had a better vid card and 200 more mhz if I had just waited. Dammit.

Re:Yargh

[harakh]

its always the same way :).

I did the same actually - and with summer job money aswell so i feel your pain but im not actually all that upset. computers get upgraded all the time and if i started to wait i'd wait for ages. now i've had my 600MHz for alittle over a month and im really happy enough with it for years to come im sure.

if you start waiting and waiting you'll never get anything bought. buy stuff when you have the money/need for it..

Re:Yargh

[Anonymous Coward]

I did the same 2 days before the 600Mhz ibook's came out.

I just wiped the hard drive and took it back to The Wiz saying it wouldn't start up. When they didn't have any 700Mhz replacements in stock, i just asked for a 667Mhz G4 and they gave me $100 off.

Re:Yargh

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly! Well said, man.

A Number of Good Reasons

[FreeUser]

1) AMD and Intel have both embraced Microsoft's Pallaadium "trusted" computing nonsense, which may quite possibly be leveraged lock free operating systems out of the platform at some point in the future. IBM and Apple in contrast ARE NOT DOING THIS (at least at present), giving us the very ironic possibility that it will be Apple hardware in the future that is open (and able to dual boot alternative operating systems) and NOT Intel/AMD.

2) The laptops have noticably longer battery life than their equivelent Intel counterparts

3) and snazzy 16:10 displays...

4) The high end model now comes with a DVD-RW burner and software

5) The OS is Unix-like. Dual boot OS X with Gentoo PPC GNU/Linux, and you have the best of all possible worlds.

That last point is the most important. My next laptop will almost certainly now be an Apple, with the DVD-RW burner. Of course, I'm not going to order them until shipping times become a couple of days, rather than a month, and I'll probably prefer just going to the store to buy one I can take home with me, but with this new release the Intel platform, with its Microsoft pre-installed crap (that I blow away anyway), its short battery life and no non-external DVD-RW burning options, has lost me as customer. Palladium has likely made that loss perminent.

So yes, unlike many such promotional stories, I think this is a big deal, it is certainly News for Nerds, and for many readers, myself included, it is certainly Stuff That Matters.

Re:A Number of Good Reasons

[matt-fu]

3) and snazzy 16:10 displays...

My Thinkpad A21p has a 15" 1600x1200 display (and cost $1k on ebay a few months ago). The 16:10 display thing is great, but only if the horizontal resolution is enormous. 1280 is piss poor by today's standards. If the chip will drive a higher resolution display, Apple should join the rest of us in the 21st century and put a better LCD in the machine. I'd sell my left kidney for a TiBook if the resolution and wireless range didn't suck.

Re:A Number of Good Reasons

[MidKnight]

5) The OS is Unix-like


I think that's selling OS X a little short. It *is* a Unix OS. My history might be a little off, but Darwin is essentially the Mach micro-kernel with a FreeBSD compatibility layer on top of it. I've re-compiled all sorts of Unix apps on my 'lil laptop without any trouble. The Korn shell on my laptop works the exact same way as it does on my Solaris box.


Dual boot OS X with Gentoo PPC GNU/Linux, and you have the best of all possible worlds.


I thought I was going to do this too, but once I started using it I didn't see the reason. There are several good Linux distros for the PPC, but why would you really want to use them?

--Mid

Re:A Number of Good Reasons

[kalidasa]

It is also officially certified as a UNIX. So yeah, OS X = UNIX.

Re:A Number of Good Reasons

[axxackall]

There are several good Linux distros for the PPC, but why would you really want to use them?

Perhaps b/c Linux is open source, not proprietary, easy to fix, many to learn, cross-platform, vendor-independent OS with widely used cross-patform remotely working window system (X11).

Re:A Number of Good Reasons

[toddhisattva]

If you want Unix, install a real Unix

Mac OS X is a real Unix.

I'm getting curious about where in the world so many people get the idea that OS X isn't Unix. Perhaps you could help by telling where you heard this ornery lie?

Re:A Number of Good Reasons

[Twirlip of the Mists]

Do you have a source for this info? According to the Open Group's web site, Apple has not been given permission to use the UNIX brand name. (I've heard that that's simply because they haven't asked for it, because asking for it requires that Apple pay the Open Group a certification fee that Apple doesn't feel is worth it.)

It's just a technicality. OS X is UNIX, it's just not UNIX(tm).

Re:A Number of Good Reasons

[FreeUser]

5) The OS is Unix-like

I think that's selling OS X a little short. It *is* a Unix OS.

I would tend to agree, but Apple themselves refer to it as "unix-like", and as others have pointed out, not all unix-style configuration changes affect the operating system's behavior the way one would expect.

I thought I was going to do this too, but once I started using it I didn't see the reason. There are several good Linux distros for the PPC, but why would you really want to use them?

I am used to living far enough up the exponential curve of technological and scientific progress that I see a measurable, and observable, change in the technology available to me every morning when I get up.

Perhaps this comes from being spoiled by distributions like Gentoo, where every morning I can run an 'emerge rsync' followed by an 'emerge -up world' and see a whole bunch of packages I can upgrade, and by issuing a couple of other commands, a whole list of new packages I can install.

It is like having Christmas every single day, and it is a pleasure that becomes very addictive. Mac OS X, no matter how slick, smooth, well designed, and delightful, will probably never offer me that. It does, however, offer me one thing I do not currently have under GNU/Linux, namely the ability to quickly and easilly burn my own videos or tv recordings to DVD, so that feature alone would make dual booting worthwhile.

But, regardless of how snazzy OS X might be, I'll never give up my morning Gentoo updates until they pry my digital freedoms from my cold, dead hands ... which is why Apple and IBM are so smart in making their hardware platforms reasonably open and accessible, and why AMD and Intel, with their collusion on the Palladium/DRM front, are so incredibly short sighted and foolish in comparison. (Estimates are that Mac OS and GNU/Linux vie for 2nd place behind Microsoft ... and Linux has on occasion surpassed Apple in terms of number of users. In any event, the two communities are quite comparable in size, so alientating one or the other, by either side, would be incredibly foolish ... and right now it is AMD and Intel, by kowtowing to the Microsoft Monolopy on Palladium, who are doing the alienating, while Apple and IBM appear quite open and friendly in comparison).

SuperDrive speed is 1x

[jdb8167]

The new 1 GHz G4 PowerBook looked good until I saw the specs on the SuperDrive DVD writing. It is 1x. Pretty slow. I assume the 1x is because of the very slim form factor for the optical drive. Still disappointing though. I guess I will stick with my 800 MHz G4 for a while longer.

Re:SuperDrive speed is 1x

[Jamesie]

isnt 1x dvd writing, something like 9 times as fast as 1x cd writing? or do you think that is slow as there are faster non laptop writers?

Re:SuperDrive speed is 1x

[Trillan]

From Apple's site: "SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW); writes DVD-R discs at 1x speed, reads DVDs at 6x speed, writes CD-R discs at 8x speed, writes CD-RW discs at 4x speed, reads CDs at 24x speed." So yeah, it's slow compared to desktop drives. But not slow enough that I'd put my nose up at it.

G4 powers past Pentium 4-by up to 44 percent !

[goldcd]

* Against a 1GHz Intel ** Photoshop

Is the best they can come up with? Has the entire Apple PR division got their heads together and spat out this as the definitive power reason you should buy a Mac?
The marketing policy spiel should just be "Look how fucking gorgeous it looks - bet it would get you laid more", works for me - I'm tempted.

Re:G4 powers past Pentium 4-by up to 44 percent !

[AssFace]

LOL
I hear that.

I like the way they look. Pretty.

I might eventually get one so that I can program things for Macs, and maybe use it also for the mundane stuff like e-mail and web surfing and the like. Maybe excel stuff.

But in terms of doing real work, everything I do needs performance (neural net stuff), and regardless of the people on here that will bend over backwards to say that the mac is faster on seti (look at the cache), or opens photoshop faster (hmmm... does photoshop help me run neural net code faster... hell if I know), but in terms of true performance - esp in Java which is what the damn thing is running, it is slower.
If it was truly faster in that sense, then I would totally get one today.

Hell, I'd be pretty happy if I could even just upgrade the JDK in the thing.

Re:G4 powers past Pentium 4-by up to 44 percent !

[Anonymous Coward]

BECAUSE, as hard as it is to believe, Photoshop is the most widely used app on the Mac, unlike Linux users who like to base benchmarks on applications 99% of Mac users will never hear of.

Proof that its still not good enough

[swb]

I will concider [sic] an Apple next time I buy a computer!

This is proof that Apple still has a ways to go. If their changes were that radical, nobody would wait for "...next time I buy a computer.." and would actually do it NOW.

I'm sure some are/have, but convincing me your product is good enough to look at when I'm going to look at a new one is just a partial victory; like convincing a chick to consider dating you when she's done dating her current boyfriend..

Re:Proof that its still not good enough

[Dark Paladin]

This is proof that Apple still has a ways to go. If their changes were that radical, nobody would wait for "...next time I buy a computer.." and would actually do it NOW.

Ah, yes. Of course. Everybody has a spare $1000-$2000 laying about for no other reason to buy a computer NOW.

And as far as the dating girl comment - wild guess. You don't date much, right? (No, I'm not trying to be mean, it just seems like the most nonsensical explanation I've ever seen.)

Re:Proof that its still not good enough

[ahknight]

This is proof that Apple still has a ways to go. If their changes were that radical, nobody would wait for "...next time I buy a computer.." and would actually do it NOW.

Radical or not, I, like most people, have to wait until I have the money to actually buy it in order to, well, buy it. I'm going to shoot for the entry iBook the next time I buy a computer because that's when I'll have the money to do it.

Besides, what moron goes out and gets a new computer when their current one works just fine? I have a PowerMac G4/450 that's over three years old and it runs 10.2 at a more than acceptable speed ("damn fast") and is no where near needing an upgrade. I'm only getting the iBook because I need an iBook. There are those people that buy things for the sake of having them and then there are those that buy when there is a need. Obviously the previous poster does not need a new computer now. The fact that he is waiting is not a statement on Apple's ability to market or make a product but a statement on the efficiency of the poster with regard to his possessions and money.

Hmm, a mature attitude towards something on Slashdot. Anyone else feel that cold draft come out of the cracks of Hell?

Re:Proof that its still not good enough

[timmyf2371]

If their changes were that radical, nobody would wait for "...next time I buy a computer.." and would actually do it NOW.

I can't agree with you there. My current computer is an 900 Mhz Athlon, although I feel pretty sure my next system will be a G4 (or G5, depending on when I buy it). At the moment, my financial situation doesn't allow for me to invest in new computer hardware, particulary a £3000 Apple Mac. I'm sure many other people will be in this same position.

My point is, although some people say a Mac will be their next computer, given the chance - and resources - we would actually buy it right away.

Tim

Re:Proof that its still not good enough

[Moloch666]

I have a feeling it's more along the lines of "Mommy and Daddy buy me whatever I want, whenever I want." These people really don't understand that money is hard to come by and does not grow on trees. Being 21 and living on my own is hard, some of my friends are living at home or are very supported by their parents. They won't ever truly grasp saving money and waiting till you need something to buy it until they are on their own.

Re:Proof that its still not good enough

[swb]

And as far as the dating girl comment - wild guess. You don't date much, right? (No, I'm not trying to be mean, it just seems like the most nonsensical explanation I've ever seen.)

No, not much, at least not since I got married five years ago.

Re:Proof that its still not good enough

[blink3478]

Besides, what moron goes out and gets a new computer when their current one works just fine?

Two words.
Doom three.

D

Re:Proof that its still not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe you'd have more money if you got a goddamned job. Worthless fucking Democrats, eat my W!

Re:Proof that its still not good enough

[Twirlip of the Mists]

Exactly. Anybody who would go out and buy a new computer just to play a game would definitely be a moron.

If they included ...

[DavyByrne]

BLUETOOTH, I would have bought one today. I guess the rumor mills can't get everything right :-(

No Bluetooth?!

[Aquatic]

After all the fuss about building Bluetooth into OS X v10.2, the first models to be released afterwards have no built-in bluetooth? A bit disappointing, that.

Re:cracking the PowerBook (iBook)

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't "crack" them to put in RAM and it doesn't violate the warranty. All you do is flip the keyboard (2 clips) and take out one or two screws for the heat shield and you get at the RAM. The diagram for doing this is actually a sticker under the keyboard. It is very slick to change RAM in these. And the hard drives are real easy in the PowerBooks two.

They aren't so underpowered...

[Arker]

Don't fall into the Mhz myth, the clock speeds on these things are lower, but they get more work done in a clock cycle too.

That said, they're still a little slower in terms of work done per second than the fastest Intel has, just not nearly as much so as you may think looking at the clock speeds. But it doesn't really matter all that much. CPU speed is just one factor of overall performance, and with a good design it doesn't need to be nearly as fast as it would on a poorer design. The design on the Macs really is much better, the bottlenecks aren't as bad, and they have plenty of power where it counts. Think of it as finesse vs. brawn in comparison with your typical Intel/AMD system, where the surfeit of CPU speed is used to overcome a basically less efficient design. Consider that probably over 90% of the computation done on a pc these days is concentrated in the graphics rendering, and the look at how much more efficiently the mac handles that - all the way from a GPU which is faster than the CPU to the Altivec system in the CPU, which beats the hell out of MMX/SSE and all that.

I'm typing this on a TiBook now, a 666 Mhz G4, and believe me, when I put it up against a new Intel based notebook it won't take the speed crown, by any means, but it's close enough that I don't really care. It will outperform Intel notebooks with over twice the clockspeed quite handily on most tasks, and when you look at things like the screen and the cd-rw/dvd drive... Apple was overpriced once but it's changed. You'd be very hard pressed to find an intel notebook with the same features in the same weight-class much cheaper. And OS X beats WinXP in nearly every category for my money. Easier to use, prettier, AND more powerful under the good as well... tcsh or bash beats cmd.exe any day.

Re:They aren't so underpowered...

[Moloch666]

Kick ass!!! 666 Mhz! I need to build some kind of machine with that clock rate. x86, G3/G4, whatever, it will be for show and tell purposes.

Re:They aren't so underpowered...

[chrish]

I'm running a dual P3 666MHz at home. It's named "beast".

Unfortunately, I'm running it on a Tyan Tiger 133 motherboard, featuring the wonderful VIA Apollo Pro 133A chipset... I can't even use a USB mouse or joystick properly, and the chipset doesn't actually support the AGP 4x it claims to support...

Re:They aren't so underpowered...

[Fascist Christ]

I remember when it came time for 666 with Intel, but all the ads I saw clearly said "667" probably because they were too scared to use a famous symbolic number from christian history/mythology. If so scared the evil would drive people away, why not make a 777Mhz, which would supposedly do just the opposite. Oh numbers, how I could go on...

Re:They aren't so underpowered...

[Skuld-Chan]

I actually do mac/pc support for a company who makes lots of graphics software (I can't say who).

But I have on my desk a Mac G4/733 and next to it a Dell with a P3-933 in it. Dell has a Matrox G400 and the Mac has a Geforce 2 MX in it. Both have 40 gig hdd's and both have 256 megs of ram. Mac is running OS9 and 10.1.5, and the PC is running Windows 2000.

I can honestly say that the PC in equivelent applications (like Photoshop 7 on Mac or Photoshop 7 on PC, or Acrobat 5.0.5 on PC or Acrobat 5.0.5 on Mac) that my Dell is easily 25-40% quicker on most complex operations in OS 9 or OS X.

Not that the mac is any slouch - its still very fast, but I've found my cheaper PC is still quicker. A lot of people I talk to use Mac's (OS9 mainly), not because its faster but because it has more apps to do things like colour proofing and other pre-flight tests printers use to offset printing.

I won't argue which UI looks prettier, probably Mac OS X by far, but its not perfect - its got a lot of annoying issues. Like go into proxy config and enter a address and a port - whoa - notice something - in 10.1.x it won't let you type in the port until you hit lock type in the password, hit unlock type in the password again - then you can type in a port... Or type "man tar" from the command line - how the heck do you navigate around the man page?

Re:They aren't so underpowered...

[Moloch666]

I know thats why I enjoy mocking at them. Some people will have a cow at the number 666. Well we just have to relize we still exist in a backwards society that believes myth to be real.

Whoops this just got way off topic, sorry.

Re:They aren't so underpowered...

[Graff]

I can honestly say that the PC in equivelent applications (like Photoshop 7 on Mac or Photoshop 7 on PC, or Acrobat 5.0.5 on PC or Acrobat 5.0.5 on Mac) that my Dell is easily 25-40% quicker on most complex operations in OS 9 or OS X.

Well, it's probably subjective but I've seen the opposite in many instances. From what I've seen a single processor G4 Mac is approximately equal to a 50% faster P4 Windows machine, for most common tasks. This can vary with certain activities but overall it seems to be true. So a 1 gHx G4 seems to perform similarly to a 1.5 gHz P4.

Like go into proxy config and enter a address and a port - whoa - notice something - in 10.1.x it won't let you type in the port until you hit lock type in the password, hit unlock type in the password again - then you can type in a port.

I've never seen or heard of this issue before. Do you have a root account set up? Are you set up as an administrator? Maybe something is misconfigured somewhere, try the Apple Discussion boards to see if anyone else has had the same problem.

type "man tar" from the command line - how the heck do you navigate around the man page?

The default pager for the "man" program is a program called "more". To find out how to navigate using the "more" command, type "man more" into the terminal (don't use any quotes) and hit enter. Basically you hit the space bar when you are done reading a page and it will advance to the next page. MacOS X 10.2 has an updated set of terminal utilities, with a "more" program that allows you to move forward and backward within a file by hitting "f" to move forward 1 screen or "b" to go back 1 screen.

Re:They aren't so underpowered...

[pyr0]

I don't have a 666mhz processor, but I do have a 486 firewall/ipmasq machine with a case that still has the clockspeed indicator digits on the front. When the turbo button is on, it says 666, when off, 69. I love that case.

Re:They aren't so underpowered...

[jonadab]

> Well, it's probably subjective but I've seen the opposite in many
> instances. From what I've seen a single processor G4 Mac is
> approximately equal to a 50% faster P4 Windows machine

Well, for one thing, the other poster's PC was a PIII, which is faster
than a P4 at the same clock rate. (The advantage of P4 is that the
clock rates go higher.)

It also will depend a great deal on what else is running in the
background on each. If you have, for example, instant messaging
software installed on your PC, that will slow it down.

> The default pager for the "man" program is a program called "more"
Huh? I could've sworn it was less. [checks on 10.1.5] Huh, nope,
you were right, it _is_ more. How braindead is that? Though I guess
if it matters you can always man tar | less Except you probably don't
want to use plain old tar on OS X; you probably want hfstar, or zip
and unzip. tar will lose information for you. (Apple really should
fix this, by bundling a version of tar that does what hfstar does.
Whether it should be the default is the only real question.)

Re:They aren't so underpowered...

[Graff]

it _is_ more. How braindead is that? Though I guess if it matters you can always man tar | less

Right, or you could do:

man -P less tar

Which tells man to use less as the pager for the moment. You could also just do this to permenantly use less as your pager:

setenv PAGER less

Boom, now less is your pager. To change it back:

unsetenv PAGER

Re:They aren't so underpowered...

[Kplusplus]

THe only reason its soo much faster is that you have a professional level graphics card doing the drawing for you, Try again with a Geforce 2 MX and the results would be a whole lot different. Especially when considering 9's BLAZING fast speed on all hardware that runs it. I don't know how you overlooked the obvious disparity in video cards acocunting for major differences in the speed of drawing applications.

Re:They aren't so underpowered...

[Twirlip of the Mists]

I remember when it came time for 666 with Intel, but all the ads I saw clearly said "667" probably because they were too scared to use a famous symbolic number from christian history/mythology.

Just for the record, Christianity is a religion. Best to refer to it as such, rather than inaccurately describing it as a history or a mythology.

But on the other subject, isn't 667 a more accurate way of describing 666-and-two-thirds megahertz, anyway? Intel and Motorola just rounded up to the nearest million hertz, rather than truncating down.

Re:They aren't so underpowered...

[Anonymous Coward]

For objective hard number Mac + Mac/PC benchmarks, please visit http://www.barefeats.com/

Take some time to browse their extensive list of benchmarks, but it's worth the read !

The site is maintained by a MacHead (Morgan) who nevertheless tries to be objective and simply cares for the raw numbers. And most of all: he also uses other apps (besides Photoshop) like gaming, etc. for comparisons.

Re:They aren't so underpowered...

[Anonymous Coward]

Just for the record, Christianity is a religion. Best to refer to it as such, rather than inaccurately describing it as a history or a mythology.

Does the Christian religion have a history and mythology?

Yes, of course it does, genius.

You know, it's funny how quickly fundamentalist reactionary types will jump up to defend against some supposed ingress on their worldview, even when it's only their own misunderstanding and paranoia which is at fault.

And no, I am not the original poster, I am Fearless Vampire Killer.

Re:They aren't so underpowered...

[Fascist Christ]

Just for the record, Christianity is a religion. Best to refer to it as such, rather than inaccurately describing it as a history or a mythology.

I understand your point, but I was not refering to the religion. I was refering to history according to the Christian religion. Non-believers (pagans) of the Christian faith would more likely refer to it as mythology rather than history.

It's a small technicality. I just chose not to assume the stories to be historical or mythological, thereby not trampling the reader's personal beliefs. I'm sorry if I offended you in doing so.

isn't 667 a more accurate way of describing 666-and-two-thirds megahertz

Yes. But if this is the case, then why not 67, 167, 267, 367, 467, 567, and 667? On the contrary, IIRC, it went 66, 166, 266, 366, 466, 566, 667. More accurate or not, it was inconsistent. I am just remembering from advertisements, so the actual clock rate may differ slightly to present a more favorable ad. Or it may have origionated at the maufacturer. There's no doubt that rounding happens, it's just interesting to see what they round off to.

Re:They aren't so underpowered...

[Twirlip of the Mists]

"Fundamentalist reactionary types?" Hardly. I have no particular opinion on God; I've never met the gentleman. I was simply pointing out that the OP was on the road to offending lots and lots of people unnecessarily.

Then again, there are people out there who sometimes go out of their way to offend people needlessly. Maybe that's the sort of person I'm dealing with here.

Either way, that's about enough of that.

Re:They aren't so underpowered...

[Twirlip of the Mists]

I'm sorry if I offended you in doing so.

It only offended me to the extent that it appeared you were tweaking Christians needlessly. I don't count myself as part of that group, but I get annoyed at that sort of thing anyway. Since it seems that wasn't your intention, let's call it a wash.

On the contrary, IIRC, it went 66, 166, 266, 366, 466, 566, 667. More accurate or not, it was inconsistent.

The floors in every building I've ever been in go 11, 12, 14, 15. Welcome to our world. ;-)

Re:They aren't so underpowered...

[Anonymous Coward]

The point is that you appear to be a reactionary when you jump all over someone because you can't read properly. The OP was not on the road to offending anyone except people like you who can't comprehend the meaning of a simple sentence. So, STFU, learn to read, and for shit's sake, don't respond to an AC on slashdot.

Re:They aren't so underpowered...

[Twirlip of the Mists]

The OP was not on the road to offending anyone except people like you who can't comprehend the meaning of a simple sentence.

Wrong. As I clearly stated, calling Christianity a mythology is very offensive to many, many people. I don't happen to be one of them, except to the extent that people who go out of their way to trivialize a belief system held by over a billion people kinda annoy me.

And as for the rest of your remark, as you can clearly see, I will respond to whomever I please.

Re:They aren't so underpowered...

[Anonymous Coward]

calling Christianity a mythology is very offensive to many, many people

OK, simple English comprehension time:

OP:"Intel was...too scared to use a famous symbolic number from christian history/mythology."

Christian History OR Mythology, Dumbfuck.

If you are trying to say that Christianity (or any other religion or culture for that matter) has no mythology, then I am arguing with a retard.

Re:They aren't so underpowered...

[Skuld-Chan]

I've never seen or heard of this issue before. Do you have a root account set up? Are you set up as an administrator? Maybe something is misconfigured somewhere, try the Apple Discussion boards [apple.com] to see if anyone else has had the same problem.

Say I'm your typical mac user - the kind of person who is afraid of complex computers...

Anyhoo - on the proxy setup, yes I've re-produced that "bug" on at least 4 10.1.x machines (even the latest version of 10.1.8 didn't fix this). I haven't tested it on 10.2. Out of the box I should be able to click on the proxy port on any of the protocol without having hit lock/unlock for every option.

Re:They aren't so underpowered...

[iie1195]

Many people are also calling Christianity "truth"... That offends me...

To me, it's mythology.

Will no-one think of the children?

Re:They aren't so underpowered...

[Twirlip of the Mists]

The best way to refer to Christianity-- or Islam, or Buddhism, or Zoroastrianism, or whatever-- is to call it a religion. The word "religion" has a very precise meaning, and no connotation of veracity or falsehood. That way, the whole question of truth or myth is conveniently sidestepped.

On the other hand, if you're the type of person who gets his rocks off by needlessly and pointlessly challenging other people's beliefs-- this sort of person appears to make up about 25% of the Slashdot posters-- then you probably don't see the point of sidestepping that question, so never mind.

Re:They aren't so underpowered...

[iie1195]

Religion will naturally also work for me. Thank you :)

--iie1195

I want one!

[rboltz]

*Drools* This Powerbook should be in the Apple Switch TV ads, I would switch to a Mac now, now if I just had some money...

Re:I want one!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hurry and get your Powerbook as soon as possible! Maybe you could save Christmas!!!!

Speed Bumps?

[davemabe]

When I glanced at this topic, I thought Apple had done something to throttle down their CPU to run slower and therefore use less battery power. Isn't that what speed bumps do?

DVD-R Superdrive by Toshiba

[laguy]

http://news.com.com/2100-1040-960077.html?tag=fd_o ts

http://www.toshiba.com/taissdd/products/features/S DR6012-Over.shtml

Coming to a Dell near you....

Re:DVD-R Superdrive by Toshiba

[dadragon]

Considering my iBook uses a Toshiba DVD/CD-RW combo drive, it wouldn't be surprising to fin that Apple is using a Toshiba drive in the new Powerbooks.

Its hard drive is an IBM TravelStar 40GN too.

Speed bumps?

[Ctrl-Z]

I don't know about the general Slashdot readership, but I generally think of "speed bumps" as slow downs, not improvements.

I think, in true Simpsons fashion, the headline should have read "speed holes".

Superdrive for the rest of us?

[rf600r]

Can I upgrade the combo drive in the 800Mhz DVI PowerBook I just bought (ouch!) to a SuperDrive?

C'mon Santa Mac, hook me up!

Speed bumps?

[Betelgeuse]

OK. I'll bite. What the hell is "speed bumps" refering to? Maybe it's just some subtlety of the English language (or geek language) that is alluding me, but I can't, for the life of me, figure it out. But, I'm willing to admit ignorance and have someone explain it to me. . .

Time's are a-changin'

[MisterSquid]

Excluding my grandma who is sysadmin in a linux-only rendering farm (that's a joke), Apple is the only option consumers have to WinTel. Apple's tenacity, inventiveness, and rich *nixy-goodness is why Apple is the darling of the computing world these days, even at 6% market share.

I'm not trolling, but I'm guessing you've not yet used a recent (4 years) machine made by Apple. (My apologies if I've put my foot in my ignormaus. Apple is becoming a favorite among newly converted geeks because they produce good stuff and because they're finally starting to get it: *nix, Photoshop, Apache, SSH, MS Office. Apple's laptops have no WinTel equivalent. The interaction between the command line and Aqua is something at which to gawk.

On a less preach-to-the-choir note, is it so different than announcments for minor revisions of relatively arcane (if beloved) open source software? Not that I'm saying such posts are bad, but that it might be the nature of the Slashdot beast.

Re:Time's are a-changin'

[axxackall]

you continue to repeat: Apple, Apple, Apple ...

Do you mean Apple computers with Linux installed? Oh, then good.

But something is bothering me to think that you may mean some other, proprietary, non-cross-patform, memory-leakful vendor-specific, operating system created by the company who wants to be another monopolist. Am I right?

Re:Time's are a-changin'

[Anonymous Coward]

The interaction between the command line and Aqua is something at which to gawk.

They don't really complement each other though. For example, if you tar up Mac programs (eg: *.app), they will be broken when untarred. You have to buy Alladins StuffIt, or make disk images (which is not easily done from the commandline) if you want to create archives. Once you know it's not a big deal, but finding out the first time was a bit painful.

To note though, I switched from using Linux/x86 as my main machine to a Powerbook G3 using a 500mhz G4 processor upgrade, 320MB ram, and OS X 10.1.5. With XDarwin and all the pkgs at osxgnu.org, I don't miss using other kinds of unix boxes as my workstation.

Re:Time's are a-changin'

[Tuzanor]

I bet you say open source, open source, open source just as much.

Listen to yourself for a moment. Not all companies (outside of the oil industry anyways ;-) are evil spawns of satan. Many slashdotters are now apple fans, ./ is now just cattering to them. And I'd also like to point out that a DVD burner in a freekin' laptop IS news worthy of slashdot

Re:Time's are a-changin'

[Anonymous Coward]

Not all companies (outside of the oil industry anyways ;-) are evil spawns of satan

The behaviour of Apple is no better than one of Microsoft. Even worse.

Microsoft tried to remove my choice of OS on x86 platform, but at least they have left me a choice to chhose a hardware vendor.

With Apple it's even worse. They don't want me to have a choice of hardware vendor (how many Mac vendors do you know comparing to x86 vendors? and who should be blamed for it?). And they don't won't me to have a choice of OS vendor (otherwise why not support hardware drivers for alternative operating systems).

The only good news about Apple is that most of people don't use their products at all. Thus their evil efforts are failed.

Re:Time's are a-changin'

[Anonymous Coward]

they're finally starting to get it: *nix, Photoshop, Apache, SSH, MS Office"

Apple has had Photoshop and MS-Office for at least a decade.

Re:Time's are a-changin'

[Twirlip of the Mists]

Do you mean Apple computers with Linux installed?

That's gotta be the worst idea I've ever heard. Generally, Apple's machines are no cheaper than AnyCo's Intel machines, and sometimes more expensive. When you buy a Mac, you're paying for a complete user experience, the most visible part of which is the OS.

If you put Linux on a Mac, you're combining expensive hardware with user-hostile software. You get the worst of both worlds!

Surely that's a combination suitable only for wealthy masochists.

Nice

[Arker]

My TiBook has 'only' 256mb ram and I've been wishing I'd insisted on 512 - it works fine as is really, but the thrashing when I try to run too many apps, including one BIG one that still runs only under classic, is a little annoying. I hadn't looked into it, good to know it's not a hard upgrade to do yourself, now the question - do these things take regular DIMMS or do you have to buy some sort of special Apple memory?

Re:Nice

[asparagus]

Here is the best place to buy memory for the mac.

The're really easy to upgrade. Get a 512MB chip ($75), throw it in there, and never look back.

-Brett

Re:Nice

[dhovis]

They take regular SO-DIMMS, but you have to be careful about the size of the whole SO-DIMM package. I recommend checking out dealram. Dealram is run by the Dealmac people, and lists the best prices on memory for each Apple model. They are solid consumer advocates, and they will yank sellers that rip people off.

Their best price on 512MB for the TiBook right now is $95 shipped from Data Memory Systems.

Re:Nice

[Knobby]

The PowerBooks are pretty easy to work on. I've upgraded the Harddrive, memory, and recently even swapped the g3/400 processor card for a g4/500 card in my Bronze Powerbook. The processor upgrade took 15 minutes which included the time required to watch the quicktime video that stepped through the process..

Re:Nice

[Twirlip of the Mists]

No offense, but your knowledge is out of date. The G4 PowerBooks are notoriously hard to work on. Adding RAM is easy, but adding an AirPort card or replacing the hard drive requires practically skinning the whole laptop. It's a huge pain in the ass.

Re:Nice

[stux]

Its definately a serious pita to change the harddrive in a PowerBook G4, ram is fairly easy... I can't remember if it was a pain to do the airport card... probably not.

That HD was a *BITCH* though :)

They're great machines, that's why

[wirefarm]

I've never had a machine that I liked using as much.

The thing that makes a big difference for me is that the internationalization is seamless; right now, I'm converting a PHP app from English to Japanese. Using my iBook I can open the files from the Linux server using samba and easily convert the strings in the text editor that comes with Os X. If I have to do other editing to the code, I prefer vi, which comes standard. SSH is right there for me. My shell works the way I need it to, without installing Cygwin.

I have 4 computers on my desk - Redhat/Japanese Windows dualboot IBM Thinkpad, 2 NT Workstations (Eng. & Jp.) and my iBook. I could use any of them that I wanted, but the iBook is what works best for me. (The RedHat box comes close, but I've tweaked the hell out of it to get it just right - it would take weeks to set up another box the same way, whereas I could pick up another iBook and replace this one instantly.)

The suite of "iApps" (iCal, iTunes, iMovie, iPhoto, iEtc...) are a joy to use, better than anything you can get for Windows. Really. Mail filters out spam perfectly for me out of the box. Viruses? Not even an issue.

Plus, every app looks great. I stare at the computer all day at work, it might as well look good. Let's face it, Windows is tired-looking, even XP, which to me looks cartoonish and pathetic.

As for games, I wouldn't know - I haven't got time for them.

After a while, you get to the point where you'll be happy to pay a bit more for a machine that actually works.

Oh, yeah, BATTERY LIFE. Sweet.

Cheers,
Jim

Re:They're great machines, that's why

[frunch]

Mail filters out spam perfectly for me out of the box.

Holy hell, I'll second that emotion! The spam filtering on Apple's Mail application is pretty incredible. For the first few weeks, I had to tell it what e-mails were spam, and what weren't, but once I switch it out of "learning" mode, it's been filtering my e-mail PERFECTLY ever since. I haven't once seen a spam e-mail in my inbox, or a real e-mail I wanted to read in my junk folder.

Re:They're great machines, that's why

[Huge Pi Removal]

Not only does vi (and pico) come as standard, but Apple have made it so that the Terminal window in which you're editing gets that little "your document is unsaved" dot in it's close button if you haven't written your changes out.

Just those little touches... :)

Plus, I've said it before and I'll say it again, Win XP is so fucking ugly. Eugh!!!

Re:They're great machines, that's why

[dadragon]

The document unsaved button is always on in Terminal if you're running a program it doesn't recognize.. IE one that you have not put in the "Prompt before closing" box. So vi ALWAYS has the button, whether you've saved or not.

Re:They're great machines, that's why

[dadragon]

The thing that makes a big difference for me is that the internationalization is seamless;

That's a nice feature, and I like it. The problem is that my main language (Canadian French) isn't supported by many programs, and neither is French. My preference order for languages goes Canadian French, French, Suisse French, British English, English. 90% of programs run in English or British English. The exceptions are some Open-Source programs, and Apple Programs, which all support French.

Even MSN Messenger doesn't work in any language I've tried (French, German, Some Asian language I couldn't read, or Spanish), but runs in English just fine. Internet Explorer is internationalised, so MS knows how it's done.

This doesn't bother me that much, because I simply switched it for the duration of my University French classes, but does anybody know if one can get French versions of ICQ, MSN, RDC, and various other prgrams?

Re:They're great machines, that's why

[lemkebeth]

You must not be looking as much as I am.

OmniWeb for instance is multilingal.

Basically, a good OS X app just needs new nib and other related files be dropped into its bundle.

This amounts to just text editing.

Re:They're great machines, that's why

[Huge Pi Removal]

Hmmm, I'm *sure* that used to work back in the early days of OS X. Or maybe it was all a strange dream......

Sorry to decrease the signal to bullshit ratio.

Used Powerbook/iBook Prices

[namespan]

The best part about this whole thing may well be the fact that the used (T)iBooks will drop in price. The original Powerbook G4's are now hovering a bit above $1000 on eBay. They'll drop further. By the time I'm ready to buy another laptop in 6 months, I'll bet I can pick one up for $700 if I work hard.

Oh, speed? I'm typing this from a G3/333 Mhz Powerbook. Audio and image processing, compiling Apache, PHP, Nethack, whatever... all acceptably fast. No OS I've ever used speeds up like OS X when you give it RAM (except NeXT/Openstep, of course).

Considering switching to iBook

[mirnav]

I have been a computer user since I laid my hands on a Sinclair Spectrum 23 years ago. I have never considered an Apple before today. Not that this article rocked my world, but I twiddled around with them in a shop today and thought I could live with it.

The thing is, I do not know much about how important the differences are between Mac and PC. That's a risk for me.

I would appreciate it if you guys could comment on how difficult a defection to Apple could be for me.

Re:Considering switching to iBook

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, aside from the obvious (www.apple.com/switch), if your Unix chops are tight, you'll find the switch even easier. Add in the special price on M$ Office and memory rebates, and it's a tempting deal to 90% of the people out there.

Re:Considering switching to iBook

[mikerich]

I would appreciate it if you guys could comment on how difficult a defection to Apple could be for me.

I made my iBook my main home machine about 3 months ago and it was relatively painless. Getting used to not pressing Ctrl was the hardest task.

Without knowing exactly what you do, the best answer is 'it depends'. Your main expense may well be replacing software that you have used on the PC - which could work out VERY expensive. If you have a lot of PC software you might want to think about getting a Windows emulator to help you continue working as you replace software with Mac applications.

Microsoft are offering good deals on Office X right now which eases the pain of buying what for many of us is an essential product.

Remember, OSX has a very nice little mail program thrown in for standard, AppleWorks is a perfectly competent office application if you don't need all the features of Office and naturally you have a browser included. There is a DVD player, the very lovely iTunes, iPhoto, iCal and iChat and a CD burner. For many people this will be all the productivity software they ever need. (Assuming that you consider that DVD player to constitute 'productivity' :) )

Best wishes,
Mike.

Re:Considering switching to iBook

[MoneyT]

Depends on what you run now, what you still want to run on the iBook. Provide some details as to what you plan on doing with the machine, and I'll point you in the direction of some hopefuly helpful resources. And never forget to ask mac users for help, they can show you how to do anything you need, and most of them won't tell you to RTFM.

Re:Considering switching to iBook

[foo12]

Also, last time I checked, Apple was bundling a registered copy of Thorsten Lemke's Graphic Convertor --- it'll open and manipulate damned near any image format.

Re:Considering switching to iBook

[Twirlip of the Mists]

AppleWorks is a perfectly competent office application if you don't need all the features of Office

Most people I know really only need a word processor-- personally, I mean, not for business uses where Excel rules the earth. If that's the case, you can probably get by nicely with TextEdit, which is OS X's equivalent to Microsoft's NotePad. (Actually, it's the latest incarnation of TeachText, but that's another story.)

TextEdit supports reading and writing RTF files for fully formatted text, tab stops, pagination, and so forth and so on. It's perfectly adequate for letters to grandma and such. And it's dead simple to use, and fast, even on older machines.

Re:Considering switching to iBook

[mirnav]

Without knowing exactly what you do...

I work in finance and I have a PC at work. I am thinking of the iBook for my personal use - I expect to do quite a bit of writing on it, work on photos, download music, burn cds, etc...

AppleWorks is a perfectly competent office application if you don't need all the features of Office

I will use iBook for personal stuff, but it would be nice to be able to work on it if and when necessary. Most files I create are .doc and .xls, but I do quite a bit of reading on .pdf and some on .ppt. Can I work with them all on iBook?

One last question: I kind of remember that compatibility issues were solved a way back, but is there any problem at all between documents saved in PC and Mac? Save in one, open in the other, etc?

Thanks for the help :)

Re:Considering switching to iBook

[mirnav]

Please see reply above (#4615241). I would appreciate it if you could reply to it. Thanks in advance :)

Re:Considering switching to iBook

[stux]

OSX comes with Acrobat Reader.

It can create crude .pdfs from any app by printing to preview (which is a PDF).

If you use .doc,.xls and .ppt like you say you do you will need Office X

That should be everything you need

If you find that the built in OSX CD burner software isn't what you want, then get Roxio Toast .

That should about cover it for 'pay for' software.

Re:Considering switching to iBook

[mikerich]

I will use iBook for personal stuff, but it would be nice to be able to work on it if and when necessary. Most files I create are .doc and .xls, but I do quite a bit of reading on .pdf and some on .ppt. Can I work with them all on iBook?

Yes you can. Adobe have a full OSX version of their Reader software, and OSX can generate PDF versions of almost anything.

Since you do a lot of work with Office applications you will need a copy of OfficeX for the Mac. Check out the price when you buy your Mac as Apple and Microsoft have some well-priced bundles for Office. If you get Office you'll get the quite lovely Entourage mail program which is really excellent and highly recommended.

One last question: I kind of remember that compatibility issues were solved a way back, but is there any problem at all between documents saved in PC and Mac? Save in one, open in the other, etc?

I haven't found anything important when moving stuff from Mac to PC and vice versa. In a few cases I've found Word documents will loose some font formatting when imported from the PC to the Mac, but that is a matter of moments to fix. Our office is a mixed Mac/PC environment and we get along just fine.

The most common problem I know of is when PC users have Outlook set up to send HTML mail messages. Attachments in that format always come in winmail.dat files that the Mac can't read. Get them to change their mail settings to something normal and everyone is happy.

Best of luck if you do decide to change to the Mac. I'm just wondering if my office PC needs to have an 'accident' so that I can replace it with a G4 desktop :)

Best wishes,
Mike.

Re:Considering switching to iBook

[Halo1]

For those winmail.dat files, get TNEF's enough, then you can decode them.

Re:Considering switching to iBook

[mikerich]

Thank you, that's VERY useful.

Best wishes,
Mike.

That's unpossible!

[onShore_Jake]

This must be false because MacOsRumors (MOSR.com) sed:
"In the mean time, one thing we can tell you is that if the announcements do indeed come next week, they will not include Superdrives. ... something which will not come to pass until roughly the first of next year."

Therefor please retract the story until the rumor sites have time to predict it.

speed bumps

[ezzewezza]

am I the only one that imagined the laptops having a big bump on them to slow people down?

#grep humor apple.slashdot.org

[Asprin]

Apple Gives Laptops Speed Bumps

Oh, is Apple putting Windows on their laptops now? [*rimshot*]

(HA! I kill me!)




Seriously, this would make a great /. poll: Pick your all-tim favorite ambiguous story headline

Re:MegaHertz Myth!!

[kasparov]

Google to the rescue!

So as not to be a complete ass, the first link from that article as a statement that a P4 overclocked to 3.9GHz (wow--he used liquid nitrogen) was only able to do 4.9 Gigaflops. A dual-G4 1GHz did 15 Gigaflops...

Games

[Anonymous Coward]

So what does one do when one wants to play recent computer games on a Mac?

No USB 2.0?

[porkchop_d_clown]

I looked for it on the web site, but I didn't see a mention about USB 2.0 support. Since external FireWire storage devices seem to be getting driven out of the market place (judging from my local Staples and CompUSA) it would have been nice to see this feature.

Re:No USB 2.0?

[BlueGecko]

Apple has said several times at shareholder meeting that they will not adopt USB 2.0. Generally speaking, Apple feels that it alone is responsible for the success of USB 1.0 in the first place, and therefore is pissed that Intel would target their FireWire technology with USB 2.0. Essentially, Apple feels as if Intel is backstabbing them.

All that said, I don't see FireWire going anywhere. I do see it redefining its niche to be purely high-bandwidth applications such as video cameras and very fast external drives. Do remember, however, that FireWire 2 is due very soon and will literally double the bandwidth. Could change things considerably.

Re:No USB 2.0?

[mbbac]

USB 2.0 is slower than FireWire. USB is good enough for pointing devices.

Re:No USB 2.0?

[Razzak]

Considering Apple's been pushing Firewire pretty hard, I'd be surprised for them to jump ship on that and go to USB 2.0.

I have to say I kind of Agree. I like the firewire standard for demanding peripherals (DV Conversion, DV Cameras, Hard Disks, DVDBurner, etc) and USB for the simple input devices (Mouse, KB, Zip, Tablet, Mic, etc).

If ignoring USB 2.0 shaved $50 off the price, I'm happy. I just don't see the need for both on a system unless you absoultely need a specific peripheral of each.

Re:No USB 2.0?

[WatertonMan]

True - although remember that you can buy USB 2.0 cards for the Mac fairly easily. Typically not a big deal unless you are sharing some USB 2.0 only hard drive or similar device.

Likely though the reason they are holding off is because Firewire 2.0 (or whatever it is called) will be out within 8 months on Apple systems.

Re:No USB 2.0?

[Olentangy]

I don't expect Apple to be building in USB 2.0 until they also build in the next generation of FireWire.

Although the current FireWire is superior to USB 2.0 in many ways, it's a little too close for comfort.

Expect to see both in the next major release of the PowerBook.

Re:No USB 2.0?

[Strog]

Firewire is 400mbs and USB 2.0 is 480mbs. You might be thinking about USB 1.1. I still prefer Firewire for highspeed and USB for lower speed things.

Re:No USB 2.0?

[Onan]

In theory. But in practice, firewire is actually substantially faster. cf this comparison.

Firewire also offers things like isosynchronous transfers, and a more flexible chaining topology.

Re:No USB 2.0?

[lemkebeth]

Staples?

They are generally Mac hostile and have been for many years. You are lucky to find any Mac stuff there at all (they do sell a couple things but, not much).

CompUSA?

CompUSA doesn't have the best track record on carrying these sorts of things.

If you really want an external device for the Mac go and get it elsewhere (say online or at the Apple Store or something.)

Re:No USB 2.0?

[Tuzanor]

You have been caught in the marketing hype :-)

USB 2.0 has a PEAK transfer of 480 mbps, whilst firewire has a SUSTAINED transfer of 400 mbps. As the other poster at my level also stated, firewire also chains better, is more consistent in its speed and generally is better for high bandwidth purposes. USB 2, while it has gained some support in external hard drives and CD-Rs, is still an inferior product that was created more for political reasons.

USB belongs on the low bandwidth end (mice, webcams, keyboards) whilst higher transfer devices should be firewire (digital camcorders, iPod, hard drives).

Heh, I don't even own a Mac and I'm praising firewire, lol!

Re:No USB 2.0?

[Strog]

I was speaking more generally and do agree that Firewire is the better choice for most higher speed applications. I do own some Macs but none with Firewire.

Perhaps we should be talking about IEEE 1394 instead since we don't have a licensed port?? Is Apple still charging per port or did they finally drop it instead of reducing the cost?

Nice, but I still prefer my Fujitsu P-2000

[Anonymous Coward]

The P-2000 is smaller, weighs 3.4 pounds, very stylish (it turns heads everywhere I use it), and I regularly get 5 hours of use or more with the extended battery. Plus, it has built-in CDRW/DVD, built-in 802.11b, ports galore, and it runs Linux.

Still, at close to $2,000 for an 867Mhz Crusoe, 8MB Video, and 384MB of RAM, it isn't nearly as powerful as a G4 Powerbook...or an iBook for that matter. The 867Mhz Crusoe runs about like a 600Mhz Celeron. Nevertheless, I love the portability of a laptop that is 10.6x7x1.6 inches. I'm surprised Apple doesn't offer a 10.6 wide format display ultraportable like the P-2000. The iBook is small, but there is a growing market for even smaller laptops. http://webshop.fujitsupc.com/fpc/Ecommerce/buildse riesbean.do?series=P2

Slightly OT, but

[malarkey]

Why doesn't Apple make an iMac without a monitor. If I could put a Mac on my desk without having to pay for an LCD monitor or buy a powerMac without paying for dual processors. Something in the sub-$1000 price range would be nice.

Just take the arm off the iMac. I know it won't look as cool with my old 19" monitor, but it would be much more appealing to me. And I wouldn't have to replace the monitor when I upgrade the computer.

Re:Slightly OT, but

[keith_veleba]

They did. It was called the G4 Cube. It was a flop.

That took ages

[Lewisham]

I'm surprised it took that long. I bought this 667Mhz PB (not cheap) a month ago.

I was expecting sod's law to kick in about a week later.

Fortunately it's not Murphy's law yet because my laptop hasn't yet brok

What the hell? Where's my cereal?

[Anonymous Coward]

CAR said Apple was going to release cereal. I've already purchased gallons and gallons of milk and new stone bowls for the cereal!

Re:MegaHertz Myth!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Think again.

Mega Hz myth is right. However it seems to me that many Apple users think that their very slow machine is much faster than top Wintel machines.

Well.. due to difference of CPU architecture, compare them with their Mhz only is totally wrong. Moreover, the PowerPC chip is efficient chip.
However, as you exaggerated, it is not as fast as
5 pentium 4's running at 2.3 Ghz a piece or 8 AMD 2400XP's combined together.

Probably the Mac system with 1Ghz processor will be comparable with Wintel systems with 1.3Ghz or 1.2Ghz.
With some tests, Mac will be faster, but with some other tests, Wintel will be faster.

Who said the PowerBook G4 or Mac G4 are super computers? No way! Is it as fast as the Cray?
The general definition of the super computer is
the fastest class computer "now".
if Mac G4 is a super computer, then current Wintel computers are also super computers.

From probable iBook buyer.
( Well.. the features of iBook is great.
No other PC makers give such features with such
price tag. And it has a robust and manageable Unix on it. However...... The processor speed is
too slow for the price tag. You can buy Toshiba AMD notebooks with Athlon +1500 processor with $1099 or something. And.. they also have good features.. )

EU is screwed on price, as usual.

[forged]

Here's a quick chart:

US version
$2299 867mhz
$2799 cdrw
$2999 superdrive

European version
2988 867mhz
3682 cdrw
3945 superdrive

IF you can get a flight for less than $1000 you're saving money.

Re:EU is screwed on price, as usual.

[BestNicksRTaken]

Well I'm coming from California to London/Paris next month. Paypal to..... ;o)

Re:EU is screwed on price, as usual.

[ahknight]

IF you can get a flight for less than $1000 you're saving money.

You're forgetting the customs taxes and so on. It's never going to be cheaper, just more painful to see that, gasp, it's cheaper for Apple to sell their products in their own country...

Re:EU is screwed on price, as usual.

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that the powerbooks are made in Cork, Ireland now, not the usa.

Re:EU is screwed on price, as usual.

[ahknight]

PowerBooks are make in Taiwan ... as are the new iMacs and the iBooks.

I'm not even sure they're doing anything in Cork except answering phones and getting drunk.

Re:EU is screwed on price, as usual.

[AlgUSF]

Customs? Just tell customs that you brought it with you from the UK, how are they going to prove you didn't?

Re:EU is screwed on price, as usual.

[Midnight Thunder]

I had a friend who flew over to NY to buy his portable. H managed to fly return for around 300 pounds from London. He still made a huge saving.

Re:EU is screwed on price, as usual.

[Omega996]

Air travel from the UK to the US seems to be considerably cheaper than vice versa. I don't know why. anyone from the UK know the reasons?

Re:EU is screwed on price, as usual.

[Blackstealth]

I'm not even sure they're doing anything in Cork except answering phones and getting drunk.

My Windtunnel was built in Cork (or at least assembled there), but my iMac's from the Czech Republic...

Re:EU is screwed on price, as usual.

[nelsonal]

Supply and demand, its similar in Hawaii, a round trip from Hawaii to the mainland is much cheaper than from the mainland to Hawaii. Air ticket prices are pretty well designed to extract as much value as possible from travelers, which is why they have sometimes goofy requirements, must leave on a Tues, and return on a Monday etc. They are constantly trying to segment those travelers who have to fly, ie business people who neet to be at a meeting ASAP, and are willing to pay a premium from simply those who will fly but don't have to get there anytime soon. They do this because once you have to make the flight at a certain time, the incremental costs of adding another passenger are nearly 0, it takes a little more fuel. The planes and employees have to be there regardless of 10 people flying or 100. So the airline wants to fill up the plane each flight, and the airline is willing to charge very low rates to get the last passenger to fly, but if they charge everyone the low rate, they will go bankrupt, becuase their fixed costs aren't covered. So they do their best to segment out how bad you want to go, and make you pay more for if you have to get there. I would guess that most UK tourists head somewhere other than the US when they take a holiday, while many Americans would like to, and do take pleasure trips to Europe. For a much longer description look up some articles on price discrimination, they usually mention the airlines, because its a nearly textbook case.

Re:EU is screwed on price, as usual.

[Gannoc]

EU is screwed on price, as usual.

I'll make you a deal. You can have our Apple Macintosh Laptops at our price, if we can have prescription drugs at your price. Deal?

Re:EU is screwed on price, as usual.

[forged]

Well I admit, stupid social politics also has its benefits ;)

Btw since we're working out the differences, people in North America earn on average twice as much as Europeans do, possibly 3x more. Yet, EU taxpayers are hammered with what are among the heaviest taxes. Said social benefit (cheap medical care) have to be paid with something !

(-1, Offtopic)

Re:EU is screwed on price, as usual.

[TwP]

In response to your .sig . . .
touch her, finger her, mount her, sleep();

results:
[tim@joy tim]$ touch her
[tim@joy tim]$ finger her
finger: her: no such user
[tim@joy tim]$ mount her
mount: her: unknown special file or file system.
[tim@joy tim]$ sleep();
bash: syntax error near unexpected token ';'

Re:EU is screwed on price, as usual.

[nurightshu]

In response to your sig, I'm sick of all this EIA/TIA 568b bigotry! I want to see some EIA/TIA 568a equality here! :)

Re:God damn son of a bitch!

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm,

you can return it within 10 days of purchase

Get a job, hippie!

[SPYvSPY]

...those of us who compromise the working classes.

It's true: the working classes *are* compromised by free-loading, debt-swimming, dole-takers like you.

Isn't the iBook design childish?

[Anonymous Coward]

compared to the ThinkPad? :) or.. the PowerBook G4?

There is a PowerBook G4-like case for small notebooks. I have seen a sharp note book a few years ago, which looks almost identical to the PowerBook G4.

Re:Isn't the iBook design childish?

[joe52]

It's all a matter of what you like. I love my iBook. I prefer the appearance of the iBook to that of the Powerbook, though I kind of wish that the iBook came in come color other than white (black, grey, blue, whatever).

Re:Isn't the iBook design childish?

[Anonymous Coward]

How can you prefer the apperance of the iBook to the PowerBook?
Oh, you're an American..
(I'm a little slow as you might be able to see)

Re:Isn't the iBook design childish?

[fafaforza]

The shells of the iBooks are translucent plastic painted on one side (inside I think). You can strip the paint with some chemicals and refinish it with your own translucent paint of any color.

Search slashdot for mac mod, or use google. Should get a few links in the comments section.

Re:Isn't the iBook design childish?

[joe52]

Yeah, I know I can and have thought about doing it. The only problem is that it would take up a bunch of my time and I risk damaging my iBook. Of course the upside is that if I modded it myself and took the thing down to the local coffeee shop it would get a lot of attention.

Re:Isn't the iBook design childish?

[phillymjs]

There's nothing wrong with the iBook's design as it is now. The first-generation iBooks with the handle were an acquired taste, but there's absolutely nothing to not love about the current design. I'm typing this on a 12" 500MHz one right now. It's a great machine-- very light, tough, and fits in my backpack wonderfully, and does everything I need it to do at all of my clients' sites. I'm thinking a small part of my bonus check in January might go toward the 800MHz 12" one with the combo drive.

~Philly

Re:Isn't the iBook design childish?

[jo_ham]

As long as you're careful taking it apart (and you need a set of torx screwdivers to do it) you shouldn't have too much of a problem.

You can do all the paint stripping well away from the internal gubbins since both transparent panels come away (the top one rather more easily).

wicked...

[xenocyst]

did anyone else notice that apple used "wicked-fast performance" in thier release, muahahaha Bostonians

Sure it is

[Arker]

You need the DRM kernel module. Instructions are here - this is mostly aimed at Debian users but it works for MandrakePPC and YellowDog almost the same way.

Re:Sure it is

[axxackall]

Agree about DRM, but better try it with Gentoo - it will optimize EVERYTHING for your specific hardware, which I cannot tell about Debian, Mandrake or YDL.

Re:Sure it is

[Arker]

Gentoo has a PPC port now?

Re:Sure it is

[axxackall]

Yes, Gentoo, as well as most (I count 14) of other popular Linux distros, has its PPC port.

Re: "compromising" the working class

[Anonymous Coward]

I really feel for you. How you have fallen on hard times going to Columbia University! You must be baffled by the unfairness of this cruel unjust world. How can you see through last years Gucci glasses? Your Prada leather jacket too tight... microsoft stock ashambles. Oh the pity, the sorrow!

As a working class crane operator, I had no moral problems with high-jacking containers of Powerbooks and iBooks. Vinny would back up the truck, joey would forge the papers, and I would load. Sure, there was the occaisional concrete shoe incident but lemme tell you, concrete isnt nearly as uncomfortable as your Bruno Magli's!

Re:MegaHertz Myth!!

[Penguinoflight]

Um, the amd XP 2400 is way faster than intel 2.3ghz p4. And no powerpc machine will compete with even 1 AMD XP 2400. This would be funny, but so many people dont realize that Apple actually gets less performance than pcs per mhz, not more. About on-par with intel, maybe, but nowhere near AMD.

German keyboard

[omphteliba]

i am thinking about this "trip-to-nyc-to-buy-a-tibook" solution, and am wondering how it may cost to replace the american-keyboard with a german one. any ideas, links, experiences?

Re:German keyboard

[geistbear]

For the expected cost you may be better off just using the American, the key combinations on American keyboard for umlaut and ss aren't that difficult. Open Apple U then the letter for umlaut and Open Apple S for ss

Granted if you are used to the German keyboard that may make the expense worth while, but it doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

Re:German keyboard

[Napalm Boy]

Correction: That's actually option-u then [letter] for an umlaut and option-s...if you need to find any special characters, check Key Caps (in Applications/Utilities for OSX, under the Apple Menu for OS9 and under).

Command-S (or Open-Apple, if you prefer) is almost always Save.

Re:German keyboard

[bursch-X]

Switch the keyboard layout in OS X (System Prefs->International->Input Menu) and learn blind touch typing.

That way you can type your "öäüÖÄÜ" and "ß" directly (the key next to "p" for ü, and the keys next to "l" for ö and ä). (I've got a Japanese keyboard here, so I don't know what these keys are on the US keyboard).

Re:German keyboard

[Anonymous Coward]

Why don't you check out apple yourself?

now we know why americans get paid more :^P

Re: Any objective benchmarks?

[JLyle]

That said, they're still a little slower in terms of work done per second than the fastest Intel has, just not nearly as much so as you may think looking at the clock speeds.

First of all, thanks for (almost) answering my question before I had to post it. Knowing next to zero about the latest Macs (but being awfully curious) I'd like to see some hard numbers about how the G3 and G4 processors match up to the latest Pentiums and Athlons. For example, another post in this thread claims that "... a 1 GHz G4 is about the same as a 4 GHz P4 in speed", which I suspect is a little optimistic ;)

iBook Monitor Spanning

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been considering picking up an iBook, but the biggest drawback for my use is the crippled external video support. They only support a 1024x768 mirrored display out of the box, though just recently this article described an Open Firmware trick to get higher resolutions and monitor spanning working.

If this trick works on the brand new iBooks, I'm definitely going shopping for one. I know they upgraded the video circuitry, but if it was just a matter of going from 16M to 32M of video ram, I suspect it would still work. Anyone have any insight into this?

NUFF SAID

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.apple.com/ca/switch/

For gosh sakes, Apple. WTF?

[keith_veleba]

I JUST bought a 667 PB G4 two weeks ago. A day earlier and I could have taken this one back! Grrr. Did you wait for me to buy a new laptop BEFORE you released the new ones? Sheesh! You coulda got another 500 smackers outta me for the SuperDrive option.

Oh well. Anyone wanna buy a brand new 667? (two weeks old, great condition.) :)

Good Timing

[WesHertlein]

Well, I seemed to have lucked out with my first Apple purchase. One of the first e-mails I looked at this morning:

To Our Valued Apple Customer:

Apple is pleased to announce a new generation of iBooks with faster processor speeds. We invite you to visit the Apple Store at http://www.apple.com/store for details.

Your 600Mhz iBook has been upgraded to a 700Mhz iBook at no additional charge. If you would like to review the changes made to your order, visit http://www.apple.com/orderstatus.

If you have any questions, feel free to contact us at the number below. Thank you for choosing Apple!

Yup, that's right. My bad luck, I just ordered an iBook last week. This is a *very* cool move by Apple... they simply canceled my old order (for the low end model) and swapped in a new order (for the low end model). I'm saving $200 + tax on this, and getting a faster model.

Quick note for those who recommend gobs of RAM... that's done and done. Same day I ordered the iBook, I placed an order with Coast To Coast Memory for an addition 512 MB. $95 after tax and shipping, and it's already here.

That's the downside... I wanted the laptop this week. At least they had a good excuse for not getting it to me. :)

Re:Good Timing

[skeeter1001]

I got a similar email for my PowerBook which I ordered on Monday -- the G4 800 Mhz upgraded to the G4 1.0 Ghz w/ Super Drive -- AND a $400 refund for the price difference because the new systems are much cheaper. Also -- on the powerbooks -- double your memory from 512M to 1G for only $40 -- can't beat that!!

Re:Good Timing

[stux]

Make sure your new ram works with your *new* ibook ;)

SuperDrive! No Bluetooth???

[occam]

Wow, Apple achieved the difficult goal of adding the portable superdrive. Cool!

But Apple has been touting the virtues of BlueTooth for nearly a year (January MacWorld) and no machine yet has it built in? They didn't even add it to their new PB? What gives? Steve, hello; are you listening to your own hype? How about walking some of that talk?

Radeon 9000 --- finally. I guess I'm still waiting for their BT portables. Get rid of the dongle. At least they finally are including the 802.11b adapters with two of the three configurations (a first!). That should be built-in standard as well (for all portables).

Apple has done a pioneering and hassle-free job of integrating wireless and BT. With their hub strategy, you'd think they'd tout all that awesome work by shipping standard to take advantage of 802.11b and BT.

Fingers crossed for next edition PB (including BT and 802.11b (802.11g?)).

Apple's not the problem!

[toupsie]

I'm in hock up to my loogies, and have enough trouble just keeping my wife and five children sheltered, shorn, and clod each month.

Have you ever heard of birth control? Maybe instead of griping at Apple, you should be having a discussion with the "little guy" about your financial situation.

Re:Apple's not the problem!

[NDPTAL85]

The kid could be years old, concieved in a time of economic prosperity that seemed neverending.

Re:Apple's not the problem!

[toupsie]

Yea but he said 5 kids! Unless his wife was popping them out like a machine gun, I doubt they were all concieved during the economic boom of the late nineties.

Re: Any objective benchmarks?

[iSwitched]

It's been my experience that the hard-numbers I've found, when taken alone, still don't seem to answer the question. Even the most seemingly objective benchmarks can be argued either way - there's just too much religion on the subject.

Bottom line, you have to decide for yourself. If you know someone with a Mac, ask 'em if you can play around for an hour, or go hang out at CompUSA or an Apple store and bug the folks there for an hour.

I'm biased, I converted from PC after years of using Windows and a brief and generally positive flirtation with Linux (Rehat's 6.2 thru 7-ish). I have a dual-gig G4 tower and I NEVER notice a speed problem, my daughter has a 600Mhz G3 iMac and it's slowish - BUT, what are you going to use it for?

I know a developer here where I work who works all day on an older G4 Powerbook laptop - he loves it. I myself use my Mac for coding in Java and it's awsome, I love the fact that I can run just about any Java-related open source project I want. That being said, I'm sure there are uses where the Mac won't be the best choice, and there is the issue of making sure all your favorite software has a Mac version, and re-buying if you use commercial apps.

If I had the spare cash, I'd be buying that new 1Ghz Poerbook right now!

Re:iBook != Education System

[Mononoke]

At the start of this school year, I did some heavy research into these systems.

Consisting of a full 10 minutes spent at store.apple.com, right?

I replaced it with a Sony Vaio, running BSD, with a copy of VMWare for Windows applications.

Just what your average architecture/fine arts/law/sociology student would be comfortable with. No.

...running on non-native, proprietary hardware?

What is "non-native" hardware?

What is "proprietary" about Apple's hardware, and how is it different from the "proprietary" hardware that Dell, Sony, and Gateway sell?

Apple is owned by Microsoft anyways.

Oh, I see you're an ignorant troll. Nevermind.

Re:MegaHertz Myth!!

[discstickers]

What are you smoking?

The G4 has 7 stage pipeline. The P4 has a, what, 20 stage pipeline? That means the G4 is clocked slower, but can do more with each cycle. That's not even considering the cost of pipeline bubbles. Don't even get me started on AltiVec. That shit is amazing. I saw a demo where they took plain C code and optimized for the G4. It saw a ridiculous speed boost (orders of magnitude), with only a day's time in development. MHz for Mhz, the PPC wins out in most, if not all cases. I'm willing to concede, however, that the higher clock of the x86 CPUs allows it to attain overall better performance in some cases.

The last models had an Openfirmware Hack

[denjin]

I don't know if it will work on these, but on the last models you could make some changes to Openfirmware and get some non-restricted video output finally. :)

Check out Ars' Macintoshian Achaia forum - http://arstechnica.infopop.net/OpenTopic/page?a=fr m&s=50009562&f=8300945231

Why don't you just keep your current machine

[phpsocialclub]

I have both a G4 laptop (667) and a desktop, (500, that I bought the day the g4 first came out) and they both still work fine.
Do you really need a DVD burner and the xtra speed that much, why don't you just spend the money on something more usefull.

Speed Bumps, huh?

[dispensa]

Don't speed bumps usually slow things down? :-)

Re:iBook != Education System

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple is owned by Microsoft anyways.

In the future, could you make the flat out false statement go at the beginning of your comment rather than the end, so we don't have to waste time reading it before going "Oh, he's a dumbass"?

Here Is a list of ALL the major owners of Apple computer. Guess who's not on the list?

Re:MegaHertz Myth!!

[Penguinoflight]

Some cases?? WHAT!?!? The top end x86 systems run so much faster than top end Apple. A dual Athon MP will totally outdo a Xserve, and cost about 1/3 less. And it really doesn't matter performance/mhz, when Apple costs so much.

What Apple needs to do next...

[XxtraLarGe]

I think the new iBooks & TiBooks rock! The prices are very attractive. But what I can't understand is why they don't standardize on some of the hardware.

Right now they've got a 16 MB Radeon 7500 in the 700 MHz model, and a 32 MB Radeon 7500 in the rest of the iBook line. The TiBooks have a 32 MB Radeon 9000. Wouldn't it make more sense to have 32 MB Radeon 9000 in both the iBook and TiBook? You'd think they would get better economies of scale from using one standard piece of equipment.

The 700 MHz iBook doesn't make any sense at all. For $300 more ($250 for us students), you get an extra 100 MHz, 10 GB more HD space, a 32 MB video card instead of 16, AND a Combo Drive vs. CD!

They should just offer an 800 MHz 12.1" & an 800 MHz 14.1", and let them configure the RAM/HD (of course with a Radeon 9000 :-) Now comes the hard decision. Is it worth the extra $300 to get a 14.1" screen, or can I deal with the 12.1"?

Re: Any objective benchmarks?

[Arker]

For example, another post in this thread claims that "... a 1 GHz G4 is about the same as a 4 GHz P4 in speed", which I suspect is a little optimistic ;)

I have to agree, that's very optimistic. That said, it's not wholly untrue - the numbers will back that up or very close on certain tests - the ones where the Mac does best, primarily involving Adobe Photoshop. That is probably the one application that drives more Mac sales than any others, and it's naturally totally optimised for the Mac architecture as a result.

On other benchmarks they don't fare quite so well. I remember a fairly recent SPEC showing where the G4 came in only something like 20% above a PIII at the same clock speed (remember that the PIV benchmarks below the PIII at the same clockspeed) when running against Windows, and dead even when running against Linux. Which doesn't look so good. But this test doesn't use any of the special capabilities of the G4 that optimised Mac applicatons do access... it's probably fairly accurate in reflecting how fast it will run apps that aren't particularly in need of computational power will run, but the ones that do need the power tend to be optimised more than that. Perhaps to the degree that these links would imply, or at least close. GCC is sadly not very good at generating fast G4 code, though it's improving, and that benchmark really tests the compiler moreso than the hardware.

These benchmarks on the Xserves are much more impressive. Really, when it comes to the benchmarks on these things, sometimes they look really good, sometimes they look really crappy. It's definately a mixed bag. But in the end, what's important isn't how it looks on a benchmark but how it performs for you day to day, on whatever it is that you use the computer for. On normal everyday tasks, my TiBook keeps up with Wintel books at twice the clock speed, is lighter, and a lot nicer to work on. That's what counts. YMMV, of course... if you're really curious about the performance go down to the nearest store that carries them and try one out.

Explain

[NDPTAL85]

Perhaps you could provide an explanation then. What is the point of going to an Ive League school when all you are going to do with your life is manual labor?

Re:iBook != Education System

[entrox]

I'll bite:

Not only are they much more expensive than their PC counterparts [...]

Standard Anti-Apple Rant #14. I won't even bother (I don't think $999 is expensive).

Why should I pay a premium to use something with BSD 3.2 hacked in [...]

The Unix-side of OSX was updated to 4.4 with Jaguar.

running on non-native, proprietary hardware?

First, what is "non-native" hardware? Secondly, what's so proprietary about IDE drives, SDRAM, Firewire, OpenFirmware (OK - that's not hardware per se) or PPC?

Besides that, it sickens me to see the average slashdotter drool over 'pretty' [fruity] OS X, and banter about the fact that their "M$ free".

You know, not everybody on Slashdot is a stark raving mad zealot misspelling "Microsoft" intentionally.

Apple: Hip Hype for Dumb Americans

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.apple.com/switch/

The real clincher - Quake 3 Benchmarks

[justin_saunders]

Could someone post them for the new iBook or PowerMac?
Yeah *NIX, sexy UI, long battery life is all great, but what about good ol' fashioned gaming performance?

Re:The real clincher - Quake 3 Benchmarks

[Halo1]

Funny you should ask that, those are the only graphics benchmarks Apple posts on their main site for each of their machines. It's at the bottom left of this page for the new iBook (49 fps for the 800MHz model) and at the bottom right of this page for the PowerBook (76 fps for the 1GHz model).

Re:The real clincher - Quake 3 Benchmarks

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL I get 130 on my Pentium III 750 MHz.

Re:The real clincher - Quake 3 Benchmarks

[Halo1]

At 1024x768x32bpp on a laptop?

SUCK IT DOWN

[Anonymous Coward]

SLASHDOT IS A BITCH.

GREAT! SLASHDOT IS EVOLVING!

[Anonymous Coward]

Now I expect you'll also post an article on the main page whenever Dell, Toshiba, IBM, or any other brand releases a new laptop.

How much is Apple paying Slashdot editors for all the advertising...?

Re:GREAT! SLASHDOT IS EVOLVING!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup, You're a smart one, indeed...

Re: performance and Java?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're trying to achieve high performance, and yet you're using Java? Get real.

Re:God damn son of a bitch!

[Anonymous Coward]

here's a hint... never buy before a Macworld expo.... and always check the rumor sites before buying... they were taling about upgrades last week,

OS X and X Windows

[PythonOrRuby]

That said, you can easily install XFree86 and the window manager of your choice in OS X. The most commonly used window manager is probably OrborusX(or something like that). Both XFree86 and this WM come as easily installed double-click packages.

You can also run the X server rootless, so that your X Windows apps appear right alongside your OS X apps.

Re:OS X and X Windows

[WatertonMan]

OrborusX really is an amazing window manager as it makes X11 look much more like OSX apps. Installing X11 is a joke now with Fink. Go to the Fink site and pretty much all the applications you'd run on Linux that don't come with OSX get installed. It is easier enough that even Unix newbies can do it.

About the only problem is that it installs a second copy of Python for some reason which may cause problesm. I can't get wxWindows to work with Python properly and I think it is because of Fink's install of Python.

There still are a few odd things with Darwin as opposed to other BSD distros. However with each release Apple has been improving things. The big flaw with 10.2 has been in how shutdown scripts are called when you select shutdown from the menu. That'll probably be fixed in the next release which is rumored out in the next week or two.

One other thing for programmers is that Apple's developer tools are free and are very nice. They provide and excellent IDE for gcc. (Although you can continue to use makefiles if you wish) They have a very nice interface to gdb as well, although the watch windows don't hold their values between debugging sessions. (Something I've griped to Apple about and is the only thing keeping me from moving from Visual Studio entirely)

Oh yeah

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah you bet. So I bought an iBook, I had to see OS X.. Now I do not use any of my other systems cuz I like OS X so much!

Don't I know it

[deadgoon42]

I just ordered an iBook last night and now they are dropping prices. What Luck!!! Fortunately they let me cancel my order and reorder. So now I get what I really wanted for the same price as before...

*happy*

New Apple laptops

[Anonymous Coward]

Imagine a Beowolf Cluster of THESE!!!

expensive?

[simpl3x]

crucial's prices are as follows:

powerbook 512mg, $161.00 (http://www.crucial.com/store/listparts.asp?Mfr%2B Productline=Apple%2BPowerBook&mfr=Apple&cat=RAM&mo del=PowerBook+G4+800MHz&submit=Go)

dell inspiron 512mg, $212.00 (http://www.crucial.com/store/listparts.asp?cat=RA M&mfr=Dell&productline=Inspiron&model=Inspiron+820 0+Series)

yes, apple is expensive?! and, i do understand that the memory specs are likely different, but i am simply comparing similar pricepoints in laptops. repeat after me: "apple is expensive, apple is expensive, apple is expensive." cute little lemmings...

Re:expensive?

[be-fan]

Considering that the memory in the powerbook is SDR RAM, vs the RAM on the Inspiron which is DDR RAM, the Apple memory is quite expensive. Currently, DDR RAM is anywhere from 2x (for 128MB DIMMS) to 4x (for 512MB DIMMS) as expensive as SDR RAM.

Re:expensive?

[dhovis]

Try pricing memory directly from Apple.

Dumbass. Everyone knows 3rd parties are cheaper.

Re:iBook != Education System

[Anonymous Coward]

The really sad fact is that the average slashdotter is drawn to Mac OS X because it is dumbed down to the point that any idiot could use it.

After three years of wasted effort and failure to simply set up a PPP dial up account on their linux 'boxen', average slashdot users buy into the hype, hand over $2500, and get a new shiny object to play with.

Damn it!

[Anonymous Coward]

Property of Uncle Sam, huh?
So you blew *my* tax dollars on them? Thanks, ass!

(not anyone else's, just mine...)

Re:Damn it!

[Anonymous Coward]

yea fucknut, i *blew* your tax dollars on them.

they're being used for genetics research.

wait, so you're saying...

[ryochiji]

> like convincing a chick to consider dating you when she's done dating her current boyfriend..

Wait, are you trying to say that that's not a big deal? Holy shit, what kind of a geek are you? And what are you doing on /.?

Appleworks

[Arker]

You're not the first person that's mentioned this, my TiBook doesn't seem to have it. Any idea what's wrong? I read that it comes standard with OSX, but it's nowhere to be found for me...

Re:Appleworks

[BinxBolling]

Appleworks is only included with the 'consumer' machines -- the iBooks and iMacs. Maybe the eMacs, too.

Re:Appleworks

[MoneyT]

As far as I know, Apple Works only shipped with the actual machine. CHeck your original CDs, if it's not on the install disc (which it most likely isn't) it's on the Restore disc.

Re:Appleworks

[RevAaron]

It's on both the Restore and Install disks that came with my iBook. However, AW6 only comes with "consumer" machines, like the iBook and iMac. The PowerMac and PowerBook do not come with AW for some reason, but come with some other programs that you do not get with the consumer machines. Always seemed kind of silly to me, but as I don't use AW even on my iBook, the point is moot.

Re:Appleworks

[Trillan]

I think it might only come with the iBook and iMac.

Re:Appleworks

[zojas]

you can download it from apple too. My wife's ibook didn't come with it (hers was one of the first with OSX) but we downloaded it for free from apple's web page. the newest version can open MSOffice docs too.

Linux on Macs?

[Namtar]

Everyone here seems to be extolling the virtues of mac OS X. I'm just curious if anyone has had experience putting Linux on a mac power/ibook. I'm thinking of buying a new laptop some time soon (6 months or so) and I just love those mac notebooks, but I also love my Linux. How easy/doable is it to put Linux on one of these?

Thanks -Colin

Re:Linux on Macs?

[djstrehl]

I run Gentoo Linux on my 700 MHz iBook right now. 3D acceleration for X is not working on some machines but 2D runs just fine. The battery life is jsut as good if not better than OSX.

Re:Linux on Macs?

[axxackall]

I've tried several Linux/PPC distros (Gentoo, Debian, YDL and LPPC-Q4) on several Mac types (blue, grey, various Powerbooks). As for today Gentoo is the best distro and it's getting better even faster than other distros. All hardware works as under Macos9 and Macosx. And the packaging system (Portage) is just a dream.

My thighs just ache thinking about this.

[wcbrown]

The only speed bumps I get from my 500MHz TiBook are the second-degree burns from running CPU-intensive apps. These things are like Aqua-fied, titanium McDonald's coffees.

I can see the headline now: "Third-Degree Thigh Burn Rates Spike Among New Powerbook Users".

$999 iBook

[sfid]

Ok, so the cheapest iBook is a pretty sweet deal with the lowered price. I'm in the market for a similarly spec'ed notebook, but so far I haven't found any that beats the specs of this machine at the price. Surely at least one of the big PC manufacturors has got to have a comparable model (2.2kg, Firewire, TV-out, etc...)? Any ideas?

Confirmed

[Ospeovedizer]

In fact, in the powerbook spec sheet, it says:
Expansion
One 400-Mbps FireWire (IEEE 1394) port (9)
Two 12-Mbps USB ports
One PC Card/CardBus slot supporting one Type I or Type II card

12Mbps is just USB 1.1. USB 2.0 is 480Mbps.

Student Developer discount

[alikat]

Actually, if you're a student in the US, you can get a high-end TiBook for $2400! You just need to pay for a 1 year membership as a student developer ($99), and then you can order through their ADC Hardware Purchase Program.
Details:
Student Developer Membership
Student Hardware Purchase Program
TiBook in the Hardware Purchase Program

Re:Student Developer discount

[Anonymous Coward]

That's great! Thank you for the tip. One should also note that the offer is only valid for students in the U.S. who are also DEVELOPERS. That means it is necessary to submit proof that you attend a school where you take some sort of software development class. Fortunately, I seem to qualify. :-) What a great way to save $1000!

Re:Student Developer discount

[alikat]

Actually, it doesn't specify that you have to submit proof that you are taking any development courses; you have to be 18+, and they request your student ID number and school name, but that's it. I am pretty sure that student privacy laws would keep them from acquiring a copy of your class schedule without your knowledge. I also can't imagine that they would lock out student developers from this membership who weren't "officially" learning programming from some institution.

Re:Student Developer discount

[Anonymous Coward]

True enough. The problem for me is, though, that I didn't realize at first that you have to be 18+...doh!

I'm 15 and in highschool! :-( So there are no other ways to get discounts on the Powerbook G4's for me?

wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

well, more than likely the 667 came from the fact that the clock was actually running @ 666.66666666666666666666666666666666666...
you get the idea. Everybody knows you ALWAYS round up, so you get 667

the devil, superstition, christianity, etc
had NOTHING to do with it

nice try though

Re:wrong

[Fascist Christ]

the devil, superstition, christianity, etc had NOTHING to do with it

(Note: the following was copied from another post)

Yes. But if this is the case, then why not 67, 167, 267, 367, 467, 567, and 667? On the contrary, IIRC, it went 66, 166, 266, 366, 466, 566, 667. More accurate or not, it was inconsistent. I am just remembering from advertisements, so the actual clock rate may differ slightly to present a more favorable ad. Or it may have origionated at the maufacturer. There's no doubt that rounding happens, it's just interesting to see what they round off to.

Re:MegaHertz Myth!!

[discstickers]

Since you brought up the XServe, you might want to look at these beQ

Re:Nice going, voting moron majority!

[dbrutus]

Funny, I always thought that it was the US Senate that votes to confirm judges. Silly me for actually reading the US Constitution.

The people gave Clinton a mandate to rule with a fully Democrat Congress in 1992. It was such a disaster that the Republicans came roaring back in 1994 to take Congress.

10 years later, the people have given the Republican party the same opportunity. The country didn't expire during Democrat rule and won't during Republican. They hyperventilation index seems to be much higher this time around though.

Don't you see that if you over-hype the dangers nobody's going to pay attention anymore?

Re:MegaHertz Myth!!

[InfernoBlade]

Pipeline length has absolutely NOTHING to do with what the machine can do per clock. Thats dependant on the number of execution units, which the G4 has more units than the P4 does (not to mention the P4 can only take 1 x86 instruction per clock, which can be traced back to up to 3 uops, whereas the G4 can take 3 PowerPC instructions in per clock AFAIK).

Pipeline doesnt have anything to do with the amount of stuff a CPU can do in one clock though. The PowerPC970, IBM's little dream chip they're making, has 18 pipeline stages, but it can still take in 5 POWER instructions per clock, so it whips the hell out of Intel's P4 and is right up there with the predicted numbers for the Itanium 2.

As for Altivec.... Define "plain C code". Altivec helps exactly nil for Integer operations, so unless you get floats involved, its not going to speed up ANYTHING.

Re:MegaHertz Myth!!

[InfernoBlade]

What exactly do you think a FLoating OPeration is? The P4 sucks ass doing float ops. Shall we compare IntOps between the machines? Cause a P4 slaughters a G4 at integer operations. Differences between the architectures. Multimedia stuff that Apple eats up is usually Floating Point. Office related stuff that the x86 architecture was made to please does really well on ints, but sucks eggs on floats.

I use both machines myself, all art work and encoding is done on my G4, everything else is done on my Athlon.

Re:check out tomshardware... uhh...

[Anonymous Coward]

did you just say that Tom's opinions are unbiased and objective?

Have you been reading the same tomshardware.com I have?

2500+ $ for this ?? Doh !

[Bazouel]

One word :

Prostar

If you can beat that with an iBook, show me how !

And you know what, this thing doesn't come with ANY software installed ...

Re:2500+ $ for this ?? Doh !

[Anonymous Coward]

Does this amazing laptop run OS X? No?

Re:2500+ $ for this ?? Doh !

[noewun]

And, apparently, almost 23 minutes of battery life.

Re:2500+ $ for this ?? Doh !

[adewolf]

And it weighs around 9 LB

Alex

Re:2500+ $ for this ?? Doh !

[Bazouel]

If you tell that from you own experience, might I suggest replacing your battery ?

I just listened to 2 full DVD while on the plane, with 2 batteries : the included one and another modular that fit in one the bay.

Re:2500+ $ for this ?? Doh !

[Anonymous Coward]

And you know what, this thing doesn't come with ANY software installed ...

You know, a normal human being wouldn't consider this an advantage.

my own prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

Before looking at Apple's web page, I will guess this laptop costs USD 3,499.99.

Re:my own prediction

[skeeter1001]

Sorry -- the "Fastest" config tops out at $2999 -- not too shabby! They took a significant price decrease over night.

I forgot : specs for a 1550 $ Prostar laptop ...

[Bazouel]

2.4-2.8 GHz Intel Pentium® 4 Processor
533MHz System Bus Speed
Four USB 2.0 Ports
15" (1400 x 1050) SXGA+ TFT Active Matrix Display
64MB DDR ATI Mobility Radeon 9000 Video
20.0 - 60.0GB Ultra DMA Harddrive
Upgrade to ATA/100 5400rpm harddrive available
256MB - 1,024MB PC2100 (266MHz) DDR Memory
24X CD-ROM, optional 8xDVD/16x10x24xCDRW
Modular drive for 2nd ROM or 2nd battery
3.5" 1.44MB Floppy Disk Drive
Built-in 56k V.92 Data/Fax Modem
Built-in 10/100BaseT Ethernet w/RJ-45 Jack
Built-in IEEE 1394
Smart Li-ion Battery
AC Adapter & Deluxe Carrying Case
1-Year Parts and Labor Warranty (Optional 3 or 4 Years)
Lifetime Phone Technical Support

Re:MegaHertz Myth!!

[kasparov]

I was not making a value judgement, merely answering the poster's question. I did say that the floating point op ability of the G4 was impressive--and it is. I don't remember saying anything to the effect of "A Mac is a better computer because it can do lots of flops!"

I say enough stupid things on my own without other people putting words into my mouth.

Re: Any objective benchmarks?

[10Ghz]

Macs generally shine in Photoshop (and it just happens that Photoshop is just about the only benchmark Apple uses when they compare PC's to Macs), but they usually lose in other benchmarks. Clock-for-clock Macs are faster than PC's. But that doesn't help when PC's have double the raw MHz than Macs do.

Re: performance and Java?

[AssFace]

lol - I hear that.
I'd like to write it all in C, but for the turnaround time and the cross platform nature of it all, I need to do it in Java.
I use the Intel systems as the cheapest/fastest benchmark and then if the clients want to use other things, that is fine by me, but it is up to them.

but I'm not going to personally sit all day on a Mac system to do all the stuff when I know 99% of my customers refuse to use it.

maybe someday I will have the luxury of time to write it all for the various different systems. until then, no mac.

and for the record - look around, Java is just as fast as C++ on many many tasks - but yeah, if you mean C, then yes, far slower.
and I'm too dumb to do it all in assembly :)

Comparing to a 1GHZ P4?

[Rabid Elk]

Apple's marketing is supposed to be biased, but we should be comparing on price and latest technology here. An equivalent notebook (albeit heavier) would be a Sony GRX 6xx series. Same price from Sony's website, and virtually identical match (size wise) in hardware (albeit with a larger screen, and weighs heavier) - but with a 2gig P4. I'm sure the photoshop test results wouldn't sound so good then, eh? (can't really comment on the processor efficiency, battery life and weight - being stuck with a legacy architecture sucks sometimes :))

a difference with iBooks?

[frostycellnex]

My brother also has an iBook. we were waiting in line for tickets to Episode II earlier this spring, and tried watching Episode I (it was pretty cool--we connected the audio output to his car stereo speakers, and put his iBook on top of the hood). We likewise only got through about an hour. His computer was about as old at the time. I wonder if it's a difference with the power consumption between the two motherboard architectures.

There might also be issues with how the video card handles DVD playback in an iBook. I think iBooks from a year ago have a Rage Mobility 128, which isn't terribly beefy, and doesn't take advantage of some of the DVD playback efficiencies of DVD Player or the video efficiencies of Jaguar.

They Even Updated our Orders!!

[skeeter1001]

Not only did they release the new upgrades -- they contacted those of us that have placed orders which have not shipped yet and offered us an upgrade. Granted -- the upgrade offered was "at no additional cost" even though the new system cost $400 LESS! I pointed that out and they made the necessary adjustments :) WAY TO GO APPLE!

AGGGGGHHHH I JUST GOT MINE

[Anonymous Coward]

Well my 800mhz "top of the line" powerbook g4 800mhz just arrived this morning after being backordered for 2 weeks. GAH! Man that pisses me off. I know computers go obsolete quick, but this is RIDICULOUS!

Re:I forgot : specs for a 1550 $ Prostar laptop ..

[Anonymous Coward]

There was a post a couple days ago about the ethics behind putting desktop hardware in a laptop package...

In related news...

[mypalmike]

A bunch of new laptop computers were announced today by a number of PC laptop makers. All of them are better than the previous versions by those laptop makers. Some are really small, some are really fast, some have nice graphics capabilities. Prices have come down for the older models, which will eventually be phased out. The overall pricing strategy seems to be that the latest and greatest cost about the same as what once was the latest and greatest. These are sure exciting days for fans of the PC laptop.

Good, but also bad

[TheMightyZog]

While the price break on the the iBook in combination with the speed increase is a good thing, they've also removed the ability to upgrade the optical drive from a CD-ROM to a DVD on the cheapest iBook. You now have to buy the next model up to be able to play a DVD. True, the next iBook is only $1299, which is only $100 more than the cheapest version of the previous line of iBooks, it's still a $300 upgrade just to play a DVD. That $300 will buy you other niceties such as a faster processor, a 30 GB hard drive, and more video memory, and the DVD drive is also a CD-RW drive. I still want one, but it's now made the iBook a more expensive purchase than it was before and harder to justify.

Re:MegaHertz Myth!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks like you believe in a lot of myths.

Thank You Jeebus

[syntheticsanityOS]

Soon my pretty, you will be mine.

FLOPS

[patrick0brien]

Well, funny you ask. It took me two years to find it
Very astute - Intel wouldn't scream about it, as you'll see...

As we all know clock cycles no longer correlate to a 1:1 calculation:Clock Cycle ratio as Intel would have us believe.

That raio is now greater than a 1:1. And here they are as measured by maximun output:
(do you're own math :))
Pentium III: 3.2 FLOPs/Clock cycle
Pentium IV: 1.8 FLOPs/Clock Cycle
PPC G4: 7.45 FLOPs/Clock Cycle

Bear in mind these figures are Microprocessor only, and dated fall 2001
- though they haven't changed much.

(kinda explains that PIII to PIV falloff in performance huh?)

Re:MegaHertz Myth!!

[discstickers]

The code in question was a screensaver that was doing floating point math. The original version (ported from x86) was writen using C libray square root calls. The Apple rep then showed code that used PowerPC square root ops. That speeded it up a bit. Then he switched to Altivec vector ops. It speeded it up even move. Finally, he parallazied the loops doing 4 vector ops at a time, for even more speed.

I forget the name of the program, and admit that its a very general way to optimize code. But, for operations that can benefit from optimization, the G4 is a screamer.

Classified Supercomputer

[patrick0brien]

-Check your facts and history

The Sawtooth G4 PowerMac was classified by the US Government as a supercomputer in September 1999.

This was based on the definition that the machine operated at a minimum threshold at, or higher than 1GFLOPs.

The Sawtooth operated at 1.1GFLOPs idle and hitting 4GFLOPs at peak.

This served Apple a mixed blessing as they were able to market it as the first consumer supercomputer within the US, but by that same definition, couldn't export it overseas.

The petitioned to have the minimum threshold raised to allow export.

Lol, it is significantly easier to support OS X/9

[Anonymous Coward]

Lol, it is significantly easier to support OS X/9 when compared to the havoc people can unleash on their PC (Windows based).

Anytime someone tries to install a patch/OS level update you have to enter the administrator password. On Windows it's just click and go. If you have ever tried to support a product you build and 95% of the problems are not with your product but Windows itself you'd understand.

However, since you obviously are a "REAL" support person aka a loser who couldn't figure out how to do a REAL IT job like software development, administration (DBA, Sysadmin, etc), you're pissed that you have to tell people all day to "reboot ma'am, that should fix the problem".

I'd be upset too if I were an AOL technical support person. lol, REAL support person.

FireWire 2

[aliens]

The problem with this is that USB 2.0 is making a huge splash in the consumer market. I don't see why people will go out and get another add on card for FireWire 2.0 when the USB 2.0 one they just got offers everything they need.

Add to that most new PC's are shipping with USB 2.0 and I think FireWire 2 will be lucky to find a niche market.

Re:FireWire 2

[Anonymous Coward]

I actually was at bestbuy helping convince a frend not to get another windows machine the other day, only the 1.5k+ models had usb2.0 on them standard.

The main problem wish usb2.0 is it performs generally half as well in "real world" tests as firewire, seems the x86 people are pushing mhz once again... sigh.

Re:FireWire 2

[WatertonMan]

It already is guaranteed a niche market - video.

ATI drivers for BSD but NOT Tux????

[Anonymous Coward]

ARGH!!!!

I've unplugged my Radeon 9000, because so far I can't fire it up in Debian 3.0 :-(

Come on ATI, it has been a couple of three months now *FFS*

Greek Geek *frown*

Naturally

[ealar dlanvuli]

This story breaks just 2 hours after my TiBook gets shiped...

Re:Naturally

[foo12]

Call them: In the past Apple's been very, very good about upgrading recent (1-2 week) shipments to the latest spec. No charge to the buyer, and often saving the buyer money while getting a better machine.

Re:Naturally

[Anonymous Coward]

I bought it from a person not apple :)

I'm not complaing though, I got a great price

Don't cry you sitll can exchange your order

[Anonymous Coward]

Especially if you tell them that you want to order the new iBooks and SuperPower TiBooks. They'll give you no quarrels about the exchange. I purchased the first 10Gig iPod, I opened it loaded it up with mp3 updated the software and 11 days after (don't wait that long) I decided that I wanted to buy the new iBooks instead and they were more than happy to accommodate me in my decision. You should call 1800-MY-APPLE instead of one of the Apple stores to change orders like these.

Re:Lol, it is significantly easier to support OS X

[Anonymous Coward]

So what you are saying is that you don't know how to use a PC and have to outsource it to a REAL support person. Yep, I'm quite sure that that your customers notice. You probably use filemaker pro too.

I do support all day on Win machines. Every once in a while someone brings me a Mac support question. 9 times out of 10, it takes a fraction of the amount of time to fix.

Re:God damn son of a bitch!

[Anonymous Coward]

No they stopped doing that a long time ago...as you can see by todays upgrades.

One button mouse != "power"

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone know of a retrofit kit?

Re:One button mouse != "power"

[DuBois]

All the Macs I have use three button mice, including my iBook. Easy retrofit is virtually any Micro$oft USB mouse. Making new buttons on the PB itself is probably overkill. Just get the USB mouse.

Most expensive G3???

[Anonymous Coward]

The $799 iMac has a G3 processor (PPC750) just like the iBook (which has a 750CX). What are you talking about?

Off-topic pedantism

[Anonymous Coward]

> There is no spoon. There is only Zuul. It's spelled XUL. There is only XUL. HTH.HAND.

German language structure would get this right

[Anonymous Coward]

There would be no confusion if we phrased the noun in a German fashion:

Apple Gives Laptops Speed-Upbumps.

It's not *that* simple

[foo12]

They'd have to modify the board, something they'd be smart to hold-on until they want to do a radical change --- i.e., changing to a G4, adding whatever the hell the next generation of firewire is called, etc.

But it would sure be nice to have access to USB 2.0 stuff like high-end scanners.

Most high-end scanners support either SCSI2 or Firewire. I was pricing USD2000+ transparency scanners which are Firewire only.

Re:It's not *that* simple

[Anonymous Coward]

well, board changes aside. having 480 MBps listed for USB 2.x and only 400 MBps for FireWire looks bad. Apple cripples the iBooks by only allowing mirroring when the video chips can do spanning as well as keeping a G3 in them so video nuts have to go for the more expensive G4 PowerBooks. They have a small line up so they do this stuff to keep big dividing lines and they keep USB 1.x so they don't have to overcome BOTH the megahertz thing AND USB 2.x vs. FireWire

Re:Nice going, voting moron majority!

[Anonymous Coward]

President Bush has new hopes for action on his conservative slate of judges

Yes! More scumbags will get the death penalty, and I can keep my guns!

his energy plan calling for drilling in Alaska's wildlife refuge

Beats shipping it by tanker and spilling it all over Prince William's Sound.

and the policies he favors on topics such as homeland security, terrorism insurance and prescription drug coverage...

Let's see: Bush wants to set up a dept of homeland security (aka kick the ragheads out of my country) and Daschle the obstructionist wants to appease Hussein. God bless W!

I don't know what the fuck "terrorism insurance" is, so I'm not even going to address that.

And as for prescription drug coverage: yes, make those old fuckers pay for their drugs. They had their entire life to plan what they'd do when they were old.

Since most of them voted in FDR and the social security Ponzi scheme, I say fuck the old farts!

Another priority for the White House will be passage of Bush's "faith-based" initiative to boost religious charities.

Yup, more real charities and less money to faggots and greenies. God bless W!

This country is going to hell in a handbasket...

Try Canada. France. Anywhere but here. Fucking whiners.

USD20

[foo12]

USD20 for a dongle which supports both VGA and S-Video out. It's cleaner than putting the actual ports on the machine, helping to shrink the overall form factor,

who makes apple's LCDs?

[caveat]

unless the PC is a sony, chances are you will like the mac screen better

well...who supplies apple with pb lcd panels? i'm sure at least a couple of other laptop manufacturers besides sony would use the same panels on their topline machines...

Re:who makes apple's LCDs?

[Tuzanor]

I'm not sure about the laptops, but the desktop apple screens are supplied by LG electronics and you can order PC versions of them, though they don't have the same case as the Mac...

Re:SuperDrive! No Bluetooth???

[phillymjs]

But Apple has been touting the virtues of BlueTooth for nearly a year (January MacWorld) and no machine yet has it built in?

I've been pondering this, and I think it makes sense to not build in BlueTooth just yet. It's not like with 802.11b cards, where most people only have one laptop that they want to connect wirelessly and they won't be swapping the card in and out all the time, and building in the antenna means you won't have a fragile one extending outside of the computer's case. Right now, $40-50 gets you a dinky little USB BlueTooth module, and you only have to buy one to be able to use BlueTooth on all your machines-- not simultaneously, of course, but if you wanted to be able to sync your phone to both your G4 desktop and your iBook, you could do so having bought only one adapter.

If given the choice, I'd rather pay $40 for an adapter I could use on multiple machines just by plugging it in, than pay $40 more for a Mac that had it built in. When BlueTooth adapters get a little cheaper, and more BlueTooth devices get out in the wild, then it'll make sense to put the stuff on the board.

And we do know it's coming, so be patient.

~Philly

in a word

[BiOFH]

"nope" :)

If you paid attention you'd see...

[BiOFH]

that Apple doesn't have to pay them diddly. The /. editors all have had the hots for both the new powerbooks and ibooks as well as OS X. A couple of them finally bought them and now they're fans. It's pretty fucking simple.

Will the Titanium PowerbookG4's paint fall off???

[ewwhite]

I mean, I feel like I've been burned. My Powerbook G4 667/DVD purchased eactly one year ago has been in to Apple for repair FIVE times, and is still demonstrating problems. These are the common ones that are starting to affect current users. The paint delamination (and here) required three trips to the repair center.... it's beginning to surface again! I've had excessive heat issues (also see here) which also required replacement of the motherboard, heatsink and fan (three times) and the external casing. Methinks that the heat was a factor in the paint failure. There's also a VERY informative post on the paint issue on the Apple Discussion Boards.

To the best of my knowledge, Apple didn't change anything in the paint process for this ew crop of Powerbooks. Now that the well-documented problem is surfacing on the last revision of Titanium G4, I'm a bit wary about these new models.

Ditto and...

[BiOFH]

...Firewire's life is and will be driven by DV cameras not external disks. As long as the cam manufacturers continue to use Firewire (and Sony is going to, rest assured), then USB will not kill Firewire.

Besides, recent test results have shown that USB may not be the Firewire killer it's touted to be in real-world situations.

Awesome Hardware.

[dolby2]

I love apple for its hardware, its marketing, everything except the Operating System. I recognize it's strengths, but for some reason I just can't get into and I wish I could for hardware's sake =-)

Re:Awesome Hardware.

[Twirlip of the Mists]

1. Go to the Accounts system prefs pane; on the Login Options pane, choose the "Name and password" option.

2. Log out, then type ">console" in the user name box.

3. Ta-da.

If you can't get into that, then UNIX is just not for you, sir.

iBook Wish

[dwightk]

I have an iBook 700 with the old mobility Radeon (16MB VRAM) It has a combo drive, and I love it, but I wonder why there is no option to get just a DVD drive. Then you could watch DVD's on the road, and buy an extrememly fast Firewire external CD burner for when you are at home...

Re:iBook Wish

[Anonymous Coward]

and pay the same price if not more than the $1299 for the DVD/CDR combo?!?! :/

BEAUTIFUL! (grumble)

[Anonymous Coward]

It would figure that a month ago, I bought a 800mhz Tibook. I saw this, and I cried. Oh well, at least the prices are dropping.

Re:BEAUTIFUL! (grumble)

[Vhalkyrie]

I bought my TiBook 800MHz two months ago. The only thing that I am a little bit jealous about is the superdrive. Other than that, I already got my money's worth out of my TiBook, and I anticipate this lasting me approximately 3 years. By the time I'm ready to upgrade my laptop again, the DVD-R superdrive will be up to 16x+ speed, instead of the measily 1x of these first gens, so hah!

Apple Memory (Was Re:128MB?)

[Anonymous Coward]

>Apple memory is still expensive though.

Apple memory?

That feature is built in

[Gregoyle]

Just in case you didn't know, that feature is *built in* to the OS (at least 10.2, I don't know about ealier versions). All you need do is right-click (or ctrl click or whatever) the icon on the desktop and choose "Duplicate". It makes a playable DVD image on the HD. And yes, it does cut down considerably on battery use.

Re:Here's the text of a CNET news story on the top

[Anonymous Coward]

You stupid fucking faggots gave this guy a 5 for copying and pasting a mother-fucking CNET article?!?!?!

God.

Damned.

Fucking.

Karma.

Whores.

I hope the new Republican empire has all you fucking karma whores shot and dragged through the streets.

Re:Here's the text of a CNET news story on the top

[jpt.d]

With the faster ATI chip, the iBook can now take advantage of the improved Quartz Extreme graphics engine built into the latest version of Mac OS X. Really? I can do that now with my mobile radeon w/16mb vram on my 700mhz ibook.

Upgrade program

[adewolf]

Why does'nt Apple have an upgrade program or maybe design he mother board to have upgradeable modules like the video modules on the high-end Dell portables.

Alex

Re:I forgot : specs for a 1550 $ Prostar laptop ..

[Bazouel]

CPU : Pentium 4M 2.4 to 2.8 GHz
GPU : ATI Radeon 9000 mobility

Tell me which one of those is actually a desktop component ?

Re:SuperDrive! No Bluetooth???

[occam]

Hmm, you make some good points. I guess my judgement is clouded since I have only a PowerBook, and I imagine syncing with my Palm Tungsten T and some BlueTooth phone (e.g., T68i or P800) for mobile wireless. Also, it seems like such a no-brainer, I was sure (perhaps cynically) bluetooth before Radeon 9000 and definitely before SuperDrive. Yet, those both arrived and bluetooth was no show! Even 1GHz made it. All the hard stuff made it, but no bluetooth. Seems odd.

It seems really strange to me that the two portables are updated, and yet bluetooth is most valuable on the portables. Does this mean that Steve won't bluetooth enable the whole product line come January, a year after making a big deal out of bluetooth? If he does update machines, will he now leave out the portables (which could use it most)? That seems really backwards to me.

I was really hoping that today's announcement would be Xserve Raid, with "full" PB and iBook upgrades in January. Now, I'm still waiting to upgrade my PB (and hoping for faster memory, higher resolution, bluetooth, and faster (new?) CPU). Fatter GPU memory would be nice too. :-)

But now I wonder whether bluetooth will have to wait for another 6-9 month rev cycle. Ouch. I do not think they'll update the PB's again in January as that would be only about a month after the latest PB with SuperDrive starts shipping (if they keep their announced 3-4 week shipping schedule). The "optimal" outcome would be for the SuperDrive machines to ship late (i.e., January post-MacWorld) and for them to (surprise, surprise) include bluetooth.

My thinking is that the prime candidate for bluetooth has to be the "Ultimate" PB. So given these (otherwise surprisingly good) upgrades to the PB, does that mean we won't see BT on any Apple for another 6-9 months? Or will Apple simply ship it on non-portables first (weird)?

Par for the course. More Apple suspense. At least this is good suspense (good machines now, better machines later).

Cheers!

For what it's worth, they read fat32 drives fine

[Snardly Dinkerton]

My dad just picked up a new dual Ghz Powermac G4. He wanted to put a Fat32 partitioned hard drive in it that had 60 or so Gigs of mp3s on it. We snapped open the case (no screws) slid the drive into place (extra screws were waiting), connected the cable (also provided and waiting to be used inside), closed the case and turned it back on. The Mac not only recognized it the first time around but it was reading the mp3s just like it was a native format. I was expecting to have to format and network all the files from a backup file server he has running (he digs his music), but nope. Most importantly to me however, was that everything I needed was already in place and waiting. No looking around for cables, it was great! Anyway, that's my switch story I suppose, heh. Btw, my XP machine looks like ass now. Thanks, Dad.

Offtopic: What Mac to buy????

[Sri Lumpa]

"Understand what you'll be using it for and do your homework BEFORE spending the $$$ to get a G4"

Speaking of homework, maybe you (or other Apple users in /.) can help me convice somebody to switch.

My sister, who doesn't know squat about computer other than how to use MS Office and browse the Web asked me to advise her to buy a computer (not a new one, her first one). I personnally refuse to recommend the Wintel platform anymore (the OS is getting good but the company is getting worse) and while I love Linux I wouldn't recommend it to her just yet (maybe in a few more years), which leaves us with the Macs.

Unfortunately, I never owned or even used a Mac myself, which makes it more difficult for me to advise her wisely although I start to have a good idea of what would provide for her current needs (mostly word processing and the like) and not stuck her up when he needs grow... Oh, and she is also needs a wayh to put her documents on some removable media (she is used to floppy but I really think CDRW would be better for when her needs grows along with the size of her files) that can also be read by a Windows PC.

At first she wanted a laptop but given the price (she is far from rich) she decided to settle on a desktop.

My first consideration was the iBook plus USB fdd but the price quickly shilled her.

Second was the classic iMac plus USB fdd, old but decent hardware (after all, my old desktop PC was a AMD K6 2 50Mhz and was quite good) and not that expensive either. But I was struggling between my knowledge that it was good enough for her and my knowledge that it was good enough for her NOW but that it was a computer at the end of its lifecycle and I don't want to get her a computer that she will feel the need to change in one or two years. I am also concerned about its performance running MacOS X, after reading the very interesting articles relating to it on Ars Technica (the one by John Siracusa).

So my third opinion was that the eMac is quite a good computer, with a bigger screen (17'' instead of 15''), better processor (G4-700 instead of G3-600), a GeForce2 with 32Mb of vram (useful for Jaguar) AND a CDRW, which would make the need of an additional floppy drive useless and bring her data transfer and storage habits into the late nineties*.

That was what I was going to advise her tommorrow, maybe with a bit of financial help from me if necessary (I'm not rich either but it would probably be better spent that way).

However, with the price drop on the new low end iBook under the price of the low end eMac, even when adding a floppy drive, it seems very attractive: a configuration that fully fills her current needs (thanks to Appleworks present on all these machines and the fact that it is a laptop as she originally wanted) and it seems powerful enough (on paper) to run MacOS X Jaguar at least in a useable manner, if not better. And if her needs grow such that she needs a CDRW she can always buy a USB one (or better, a firewire one) after recovering from the initial expense.

So, if anybody knowing more about Macs than me can spot any big mistakes that would invalidate that analysis, could you point them to me please (I really don't want to advise her to buy the wrong computer because of my ignorance).

Alternatively, any links to Mac sites in English, French or Italian or to a more suitable forum for these questions (but not in Italian, I can decipher some of it, but I wouldn't call that reading) would be useful (I already got a few over the last few days and Google directory is also useful but if you use a Mac you probably have a few interesting links).

Remember, it is for a good cause, to convert somebody to Macintoshs (and me too, in one or two years, when I get enough money for it).

Thanks

PS: Argh, this is as long as I feared it would be. As a bonus for whoever sticked for that long I found this funny page over at lowendmac.com:
Top 10 ways not to get hired: http://www.lowendmac.com/scope/02/1106.html

*No, not the new decade, that will be DVD-R or DVD+R IMHO and definitely not into the new century or millenium, we have plenty of time to develop many generations of data storage technologies during the next 96 years, let alone 996 years.

Re:Offtopic: What Mac to buy????

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, just like the rest of the poeple keep saying, Mac are a better choice now (especially since the iBook is so cheap - I orederd new one just today). No Outbreak Express/Office viruses, the OS isn't a freaking tojan and is actually useful and easy to use. If you are concerned about money - do not worry, Macs last much longer. I am only upgrading now because I like the iBook - my 4 yr old G3 tower runs just fine thank you...

Re:Offtopic: What Mac to buy????

[Anonymous Coward]

comp.sys.mac.*

I would figure out her price range and go to a mac retailer with her. The sales guys there are very good at selling apples (don't go to American though, most of them have never touched a mac in their lives). Just be sure to let the sales guy do all the talking, you will be able to pick apart his tech specs while convincing yourself but it will sound like your saying mac hardware sucks to your sister.

Re:Offtopic: What Mac to buy????

[Twirlip of the Mists]

My first consideration was the iBook plus USB fdd but the price quickly shilled her.

This was the point in your post where the little alarm in my head started going off.

You can get an iBook for $1000. If your sister is a student, you can lop a bit off of that price. A built-in CDRW/DVDROM drive will cost you a few hundred bucks more. If these prices "shill" her, then you're probably not going to be able to swing a new Mac. Which is a shame, because it's really the way to go.

I'd suggest finding some way to get the $1000 iBook, but rather than springing for the combo drive, just buy one of those tiny USB keychain drives, like this one. (Not positive that link is going to work. The URL looks temporary. Try it anyway.)

These little widgets cost about $90 and hold 128 MB. If you format it FAT-- or whatever they call the DOS disk format these days-- you should be able to mount it on any Mac or PC that's equipped with USB. Easier to use and faster than a CDRW, and lots cheaper.

Your basic analysis is good, but by far the best advice would be for you to go to the nearest Apple retail store and talk to the folks there. Tell them everything you just posted here, and they'll be able to suggest the right solution for you. You'll also get the side benefit of being able to play with all the machines before you buy one. The only downside is that the new laptops probably won't be in stores for a least a week, and maybe more like two or three.

Good luck.

Re:Offtopic: What Mac to buy????

[Sri Lumpa]

"comp.sys.mac.*"

Thanks, I will (at least) lurk there.

"I would figure out her price range and go to a mac retailer with her."

I would do that if I wasn't in the UK and her in Italy.

"but it will sound like your saying mac hardware sucks to your sister."

She isn't hell bent on performance or anything, which is why about any modern Mac should be enough for her current needs.

My fear is that given that she never owned a computer, the fact of using one regularly will make her needs expand beyond the machine I would recomment if I knew her needs to be fixed, which is why I want to avoid recommending the old style iMacs.

Re:Offtopic: What Mac to buy????

[Sri Lumpa]

" If these prices "shill" her, then you're probably not going to be able to swing a new Mac."

She has enough to at least buy an old iMac+floppy; I just am concerned that in a year she mayh need more and may regret not buying a better machine today.

"A built-in CDRW/DVDROM drive will cost you a few hundred bucks more."

Unfortunately the prices in Italy (where she is) are more expensive:
US IT
CDROM 999 1318
COMBO 1299 1798

Quite a difference, huh. That must be the VAT.

I can help her buy the CDROM one but I won't have enough dough to help her buy the combo.

"I'd suggest finding some way to get the $1000 iBook, but rather than springing for the combo drive, just buy one of those tiny USB keychain drives"

I will ask her to see if the computers she is likely to interact with these days have USB (or more likely, I will ask her how old they are) and let her choose between floppy and USB keychain. 128Mb is an insane size for any document.

The iBook definitely looks like the way to go.

Thanks to all those that bothered answering.

Re:Offtopic: What Mac to buy????

[stux]

I think the way to go for removable storage is definately a CD-R/CD-RW burner

I wouldn't recommend the keychain doobies...

Main reason... you can't just give someone the disk ;)

The eMac sounds like the perfect machine for her... A G4 has legs, a G3 doesn't

Think of the longevity of these things

[amichalo]

"Methusula" comes to mind when I think of how long these newest offerings will be realistic to work with. I have a 400 Mhz Ti PB and WITHOUT a graphics card that supports Quartz Extream, WITHOUT Gigabit Either, WITHOUT a huge Cache, and WITHOUT even a Combo, much less a SuperDrive, my system has served me well for nearly two years. It shows no signs of being over loaded and runs 10.2 great.

These newer systems, with the new cache, video cards/video ram, optical drives, faster processors, and if maxed out a 1GB RAM, I can see in service into the later part of the decade.

So expense the $3000 over six or more years and that's $500 a year for a killer laptop - WOW!!!

I have six words for you...

[phillymjs]

Go here.
SHUT THE FUCK UP!

There is (sort of) a reason

[nonsuchworks]

How far can you really get with OS X and the 128MB these Powerbooks ship with?

I agree that it realistically ought to be 256, but Apple typically sells its stock configurations with low RAM to enable their VARs to offer free or dirt-cheap RAM "upgrades." Go to any vendor other than Apple itself and I'll pretty much guarantee you'll find the base configurations there come with RAM upgrades either for free or for an install fee.

Basic rule of thumb: don't buy direct from Apple unless you have to.

It's a real place, you know. :)

[Trillan]

Well, speaking a someone who lives a couple hours from Whistler, it's definitely a good place to spend a winter!

Radeon

[Anonymous Coward]

ATI sucks

Zees ees Great!

[duck_prime]

[exchange rates...Macs expensive in Europe...]To the point that it may be worth a trip to NYC to buy a fully loaded PowerBook.

There's always a good excuse to go to Old New York!

I can see you explaining to your wife... "Eet eez for zee cheap Apples, cheri, not zee -- how you say -- parleurs de massage on Times Square"

Disclaimer ... "It's a joke, son" ... relax.

I was so impressed with

[colatek]

my g3 iMac I bought last november that I bought myself one of those 17" flat panel iMacs when they came out.
The g3 was the first Mac I ever had. After years of dealing with Microsoft and their "upgrades" I decided to make the switch.
Office was the most expensive part. As for cost of the Mac I don't think it is very steep for the software that comes with it. In fact Office and Ircle was the only pieces of software I had to buy. OS X came with just about everthing else I needed.
I think it would be crazy not to really consider buying a Mac when your time comes to get another computer. Best favor I did for myself in a long time.
Anyone want to buy a copy of Win2k that I don't need anymore? ;)

The best laptop just gets better!

[saha]

Apple has upgraded the Powerbook where it counts the most for me... Graphics! The new ATI Radeon is capable of doing vertex and pixel shading, which should deliver better visualization abilities in games and any application that can utilize those features. I hope OpenGL 2.0 passes soon (its currently held up with M$FT IP claims on the vertex and pixel shading), so that Apple can integrate it into OSX and tehn all of us can utilize this card to its potential.
If I had a wish list for what I would like to see in future PowerBooks:

• DDR-RAM. Should be the next logical step
  
• DVD-RAM (Currently only the Japanese like using it) with the combo drive
  
• Last but not least LIQUID METAL http://www.liquidmetal.com/ casing
  Liquid Metal (TM) has twice the strength of Ti, is easily molded like plastic making it cheaper to manufacture and a many other cool properties.

Samsung, Motorola, the military are using it as a advanced material. So instead of the TiBook, Apple can have the LiquidMetalBook :)

Then why is the HD ATA/66 ??

[boy_afraid]

Huge drives:
The PowerBook G4's hard disk uses the high-speed Ultra ATA/66 interface, which enables video professionals to quickly transfer large video files in real time directly from a DV camcorder. Choose a 40GB hard drive (867MHz PowerBook G4), or a 60GB hard drive (1GHz PowerBook G4), both with 4200 rpm performance.


Why the f*ck would Apple use a 40GB ATA/66 hard drive running at 4200 rpm for video editing??? Why not at least a ATA/100 at 7200 rpm, come on people! Catch up to reality.

Re:Then why is the HD ATA/66 ??

[ealar dlanvuli]

The short answer is most drives can't send much more than 66mbit right now anyway.

The long answer is thats damn fast for a notebook, and if they put a higher rpm on there the spinup would cost twice as much battery.

Re:Then why is the HD ATA/66 ??

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe the fuck because there ARE no ATA/100 7200rpm notebook drives in existence, my clown-ass friend.

Actually, we got screwed $800

[ArtPepper]

Not only that, but now there is an $800 price drop on the PB G4.

$800!!!

Check out MacMall and MacWarehouse for the sordid details.

I should got a Dell :P

Issues with BT and 802.11b

[Pfhor]

They can't share antennae the last I checked. Although I think apple should make a new airport card that has airport and bluetooth integrated in it (but not share an antenna). That way, any airport capable mac immediately becomes bluetooth ready also. Throw up the 802.11g adapter in the upgrade, and i think it would be worth the $100 for a new card.

Re:FP

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF does 'FP' mean and what does this all have to do with Apple?

Re:MegaHertz Myth!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you be any more of an ignorant AMD fanboy? Just wondering.

Re:iBook still stuck at G3 - OC!

[nikster]

one word comes to mind... overclocking! buy a cheap ibook and OC it to 1GHz...

my answer to the survey is...

[commodoresloat]

CowboyNeal

MOD PARENT DOWN!

[Anonymous Coward]

Moderate the parent post down! Toshiba never made a 486 laptop. The poster is lying. Spend your mod points to taking this loser down a notch rather than stroking the ego of yet another open sores communist who posts "but does it run linux?" or "imagine a beowulf cluster of my ass."

Re: Any objective benchmarks?

[Twirlip of the Mists]

it just happens that Photoshop is just about the only benchmark Apple uses when they compare PC's to Macs

That's because, if I recall correctly, Photoshop is the single most widely used Mac application in history. In other words, more people have used and continue to use Photoshop on the Mac than any other piece of software, not counting the OS itself. On the other side of the coin, virtually nobody-- when figured as a fraction-- uses Photoshop for Windows. So it's the perfect benchmark for Mac users, and the worst possible one for PC users.

Besides, Macs have never been about being the fastest computers in the world. I have a dual 1 GHz G4-- using it right now-- and it's faster than I am, so I would never know it if it were faster still. Macs are about the overall user experience. Nobody buys a Mac-- especially a Mac laptop-- for the CPU alone.

Apple Laptop Keyboards Unsuitable for Unix Users

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple laptops are effectively unusable for unix users.

I am a long-time Unix user. That means I need to have the Ctrl key to the left of the A key. This is a genuine need, not merely a want; it is based upon ergonomics. The Ctrl key is heavily used in unix, and it must be easily accessable. It cannot be off in the lower left corner of the keyboard where it is difficult to get at, and where it distorts the position of your left hand such that you can't easily type other keys while holding the Ctrl key down.

Apple desktop keyboards are now all USB. They are all OK. The CapsLock key can be re-mapped into a Ctrl key.

Unfortunately, even in this modern age, all Apple laptops have built-in ADB keyboards. The ADB keyboard is broken-by-design. It is, in general, not possible to remap the CapsLock key into a Ctrl key.

There are some exceptions, but they are horrible kludges. They are horrible kludges because the original design of the ADB keyboard was a horrible kludge. The correct solution would be for Apple to re-design their laptop motherboards to use built-in USB keyboards. This hasn't happened yet. If you run Linux, use Debian's solution. For Mac OS X users, uControl works. There are no solutions (that I know of) for either NetBSD or OpenBSD. Please note once again that the "solutions" above are in fact kludges, because of the original bad design of the ADB keyboard.

Apple is (currently) ignoring Unix users! This is not merely speculation on my part. In an on-going email exchange I am having with an Apple employee (whom I won't name) in their marketing department, the Apple marketing person directly stated to me that Apple was catering to their historic Mac customers, and is purposely ignoring the Unix market. He also claimed that Apple would soon start paying more attention to the Unix market. I won't hold my breath. Apple has been ignoring Unix users for more than 12 years. I expect that trend to continue. (Also note that my Apple contact indicated that Macs would never ship with a 3-button mouse, even though Apple intended to port almost all X-window software and deliver it either on a CD/DVD or installed directly on each Mac's hard drive. How Unix friendly is a 1-button mouse with X programs that often require 3 buttons?)

Apple has now lost two opportunities to sell me hardware. I really wanted an Apple laptop for their superior battery life, and for the PowerPC with Altivec CPU. (The Altivec is vastly superior to the x86 line for DSP.) Because I can't live with the broken-by-design built-in ADB keyboard in all Apple laptops, Sony and IBM sold me laptops instead. If Apple fixes this problem, they will sell me a PowerBook next year; if they don't, I'll still be running OpenBSD on x86 hardware, and wishing I could use a Mac.

Re:Apple Laptop Keyboards Unsuitable for Unix User

[orange7]

I think you mean s/unix/emacs/g

All the emacs users I know suffer from RSI. Hmmm =)

A.

User Report of New iBook 800

[Anonymous Coward]

Just picked up the new iBook 800, 12.1 screen, 30G HD, 32 MB VRAM, DVD/CDRW -- added a 512 MB SODIMM for a total of 640 MB RAM.

Well, in the hour or so that I have been using it, I can say that it has noticeably faster windowing response than my iBook 700 640 MB RAM, 16 MB VRAM running Jaguar OSX 10.2.1 -- windows fairly jump onto the screen under Mozilla 1.2b or Explorer 5.2.2 -- finder windows are much snappier, too.

A nice, useful speed bump for the iBook line -- have not tried any gaming or DVD to test new 32 MB VRAM subsection, yet.

YMMV

Re:Apple Laptop Keyboards Unsuitable for Unix User

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a vi user, and I don't suffer from RSI.

I do suffer from the absolute need for good hardware. I won't buy any hardware that I can't effectively use.

I'm ready to buy an Apple laptop, as soon as I can use one. The only impediment standing in my way is the keyboard. I need to be able to re-program the CapsLock key into a Ctrl key.

This is possible on all x86 laptop keyboards. It is not yet possible on any PPC (Apple) keyboards.

As soon as Apple fixes this problem, they'll make (at least) one more sale. I believe that I represent 10's of Thousands of users, so actually, as soon as Apple fixes this problem, they'll make 10's of Thousands of more sales.

Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps I'm the only one. But I don't think so. I think many Unix gurus have the same need as I have for the Ctrl key to the left of the A key.

Please Read Original Article

[Anonymous Coward]

I mentioned uControl in my original article. I know about it, as I have been following this issue very closely for the last 2-3 years!!

uControl doesn't do anything for OpenBSD or NetBSD, and I use those operating systems extensively!!

The proper solution is for Apple to fix their hardware. All x86 PC keyboards are 100% completely re-programmable. Apple laptop (ADB) keyboards aren't. Apple laptop (ADB) keyboards are inferior.

As soon as Apple fixes their hardware problems, I'll be their customer. Until that happens, I'll continue to complain about it (because I really want to become their customer).

Re:MegaHertz Myth!!

[Twirlip of the Mists]

Are you fucking nuts? That's the single dumbest comment I've ever read at /.

Oh, I don't know. Seems like this one is even dumber.

Nit

[Arker]

The short answer is most drives can't send much more than 66mbit right now anyway.

Umm most? Name one that can.

"Faster" EIDE/ATA specs are nothing but marketing hype, there are no drives on the market that can use them anyway, excepting burst transfer from a cache hit which is really going to have no effect since it happens rarely and it's not sustained, so at most you lose a millisecond but gain it right back the next cycle.

It's a little different with SCSI, since you can run several drives simultaneously, but no ones putting multiple hard drives in laptops anyway, for good reasons... weight, heat, power...

Re:Here's the text of a CNET news story on the top

[rweir]

Greg Joswiak?

I don't know why, but I keep getting images of Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs evil love child...*shudder*

Re:G3 is not Altivec but OSX is written altivec

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, it is true that the G3 is fast. But the fact is that it is much slower on OSX due to the fact that aqua does use Altivec coding.

So, I would ignore the statement above about thinking about what software you want - and quite frankly, there is no other route now (other than Linux PPC) that makes sense for a mac user than OSX.

Bottom Line: Get a G4 unless you want a slower box.

Next revision

[Anonymous Coward]

But Apple has been touting the virtues of BlueTooth for nearly a year (January MacWorld) and no machine yet has it built in? They didn't even add it to their new PB? What gives? Steve, hello; are you listening to your own hype? How about walking some of that talk?

Look at the changes introduced in this update: Bump up the clock speeds by 200MHz, replace the GPU with a (pin-compatible) newer version, and replace a combo drive with a SuperDrive (which I'm sure used the same interface). I'm betting that none of these changes involved significant differences on the logic board, because none of them introduced fundamentally new connectivity to the machine.

Bluetooth would have, and thus would have required significantly more QA before they could release, as well as changes to their production line. The time these things take would have made it impossible for them to get machines out the door in significant quantity before Christmas. They're pushing it, as is.

I expect to see a deeper revision in the spring, which will include changes to the enclosure, and maybe variable bus timing. We'll probably see Bluetooth, then. Maybe USB 2.0, too, if they decide to do it.

Re: Any objective benchmarks?

[Anonymous Coward]

...the ones where the Mac does best, primarily involving Adobe Photoshop. That is probably the one application that drives more Mac sales than any others, and it's naturally totally optimised for the Mac architecture as a result. On other benchmarks they don't fare quite so well.

Like benchmarking how log it take to crash. PC's got Apple beat by a logshot.

Re: Any objective benchmarks?

[Arker]

Like benchmarking how log it take to crash. PC's got Apple beat by a logshot.

Hahaha right on brother! Did I mention I've been using this TiBook for 3 months now, it's loaded to the gills with alpha software and legacy crap both, and I've yet to see it crash once?

Any way to swap out video card in ibook?

[Zhe Mappel]

On a mid-2002 ibook, that is. Do any aftermarket shops provide upgrades?

Re:Any way to swap out video card in ibook?

[foniksonik]

If you are willing to void your warranty, do a little soldering and find a good firmware hack, maybe.... well it seems like that would be required but really it probably only requires that you find the graphics chipset somewhere other than on a brand new iBook.

Problem is that ATI doesn't sell them to consumers. If you have a buddy at a licensed Mac service center you could maybe lay your hands on one but this could be a 'ship back to Apple' repair and they wouldn't have any spare cards lying around.

Finally, the point to this is that Apple keeps a really tight grip on these parts and as one Mac reseller told me "We're not allowed to piece out Macs, Apple won't let us".