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Trident XP4 Reviewed

ceebABC writes "In a new review, the Trident XP4 got a nasty reception. Based on the tests, it sounds like Trident has got some work to do on the thing. Looks like this GPU is dead on arrival." Our last story on Trident mentioned them coming back from the dead. Maybe not.

157 comments

  1. Lying With Statistics by SmartGamer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...And this is why you shouldn't believe the prerelease specs. Nothing ever performs to spec; trust the benchmarks.

    It's pretty common, really. But I haven't usually seen it to this degree.

    --
    Warning: Poster of this comment is a nerd. Just like everybody else here.
    1. Re:Lying With Statistics by coryboehne · · Score: 2

      ...And this is why you shouldn't believe the prerelease specs. Nothing ever performs to spec; trust the benchmarks.

      It's pretty common, really. But I haven't usually seen it to this degree.


      This has nothing to do with lying about specs. The problem with these damn things was the GPU was dead, not under performing, it was dead on arrival. Now, I wonder why this happened? Two possible reasons, quality control failure, or unlikely random failure due to damage after manufacture? I think I'll prefer to believe that it was indeed a quality control failure. These cards should be tested before leaving the factory floor, otherwise bad things like this will happen to you and screw you big time. Quality assurance is a quick and easy thing to do, without increasing costs too much, and I know that I would rather pay a little more to be assured that I'm getting something that works, without me having to send it back to get a replacement for it.

      The lesson? Check your work carefully if you don't want to look like an ass... See .sig...

    2. Re:Lying With Statistics by Proc6 · · Score: 4, Funny
      ...And this is why you shouldn't believe the prerelease specs. Nothing ever performs to spec; trust the benchmarks.

      but then again, drivers can be tweaked to skew benchmarks. Trust review sites...

      but then again, all the review sites are bought and paid for by various vendors with special interests. Trust your parents.

      Oh god... my dad is John Ashcroft... NEVERMIND...

      --

      I'm Rick James with mod points biatch!

    3. Re:Lying With Statistics by wideBlueSkies · · Score: 1

      4 out of 5 dentists recommend Trident to their patients who chew gum. Meanwhile they only asked 5 dentists. 4 of whom just happened to be on payroll.

      Oh wait, wrong Trident.

      --
      Huh?
    4. Re:Lying With Statistics by taion · · Score: 2

      Perhaps you ought to read the article, and get a better understanding of English idiom, then. Dead on Arrival means that it's spectacularly bad, and a horrible failure. If the card didn't work at all, how would they have gotten the benchmarks, after all?

      --

      ----------
      Floccinaucinihilipilification - the action or habit of judging something to be worthless
    5. Re:Lying With Statistics by lendude · · Score: 1

      "The lesson? Check your work carefully if you don't want to look like an ass..." Might wanna take your own advice...

      --
      "Get off the cross - we need the wood" - Tori Amos
    6. Re:Lying With Statistics by coryboehne · · Score: 1

      Or rtfa...is always good advice ;)..

  2. Formating for speed readers? by GoofyBoy · · Score: 5, Funny

    That review
    has really
    great formating.

    I just love
    to read in
    one thin
    column. Or
    maybe they just
    have funky
    formating for
    IE?

    --
    The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
    1. Re:Formating for speed readers? by Some+Dumbass... · · Score: 2

      Or
      maybe they just
      have funky
      formating for
      IE?


      What makes you think that anyone on SlashDot cares about this? ;)

    2. Re:Formating for speed readers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It looks good at 1600x1200.

      Then again, so does slashdot page widening.

  3. I'm sure it's better... by Randolpho · · Score: 2, Interesting

    than my lowly i810. :) P.S. Am I the only one getting connection issues on Slashdot? Has Slashdot been Slashdotted?

    --
    "Times have not become more violent. They have just become more televised."
    -Marilyn Manson
    1. Re:I'm sure it's better... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Connection issues here too. Only the front and default story pages load. I'm surprised this comment page loaded (took a good minute from my cable modem though. No, every other site loads normally, so it's not some pira^H^H^H^Hcopyright infringing ass next door leaching away all my bandwidth)

      Maybe that annoyed spammer's getting his revenge on /.

    2. Re:I'm sure it's better... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope, I'm getting slow speeds w/slashdot too.

    3. Re:I'm sure it's better... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      slower than shit from here. and it's Friday so I have nothing better to do... damn it all to hell. Why does it have to crawl when I have time to kill?

    4. Re:I'm sure it's better... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its going at a speed that reminds me of my old 14.4 at times. DoS? Or did a telco play "cut a random line" somewhere?

  4. Is it possible? by Wheaty18 · · Score: 3, Funny

    This card rivals the ATI Raedon for the 'worst drivers in the industry' award?

    1. Re:Is it possible? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL. +1 Funny

      So true...

      Annoying ATI zealot comment in 5, 4, 3, ...

    2. Re:Is it possible? by Wiz · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think you are being unfair here. I've got a Radeon 9000 PRO and I've found both the Windows and Linux drivers to be of very good quality. Don't think I've ever had any instability problems with either set-up (apart from the normal Windows stability, or lack of, of course).

      This used to be the case in the past, but they are much better now. Not Nvidia quality, not yet, but they are getting there.

      I'd love it if they'd release an open source linux driver though, that'd be cool!

    3. Re:Is it possible? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll agree that ATI drivers have serious problems. I'm running the new Radeon driver for XP that ATI released a couple of weeks ago. There are five horizontal lines on the screen at every resolution above 800x600! ATI's solution: only use 800x600. I can't believe I paid this much for this crap.

  5. Meanwhile, back in Denmark... by Cap'n+Canuck · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Ouch! That review was particularly brutal!

    It makes me wonder why an AnandTech article gave such a different opinion. Which one is right?

    From page two...
    Basically we're at a "wait and see" point with Trident but there is the potential for the XP4 to deliver on all of their claims
    1. Re:Meanwhile, back in Denmark... by Celandro · · Score: 2

      Its simple. AnandTech ran their benchmarks at 800x600 instead of 1600x1200. Why in the world you would test a notebook graphics card at 1600x1200 for a 3d game is beyond me.

    2. Re:Meanwhile, back in Denmark... by InfernoBlade · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Dated August 2002. And the word Preview, right in the title bar.

      Granted 1600x1200 wasnt fair either, but this isnt a notebook chip, its a desktop chip (unlike what other poster said). And its intended to compete with the likes of the GF4 and Radeon cards.

    3. Re:Meanwhile, back in Denmark... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative
      Also to note is that AnandTech tested under Win 98SE, while ExtreamTech tested under Win XP.

      Add to this some comments from AnandTechs preview:
      Trident had a Pentium 4 2.53GHz system running on Intel's 845G motherboard with their reference T2 board. The system had both Windows 98SE and Windows XP installed, the reason being that the XP drivers were not as stable as the 98SE drivers at this point.
      We could not get the card to run UT2003 under Windows XP at all so we were forced to use Windows 98SE for all of our tests.


      Take it with a grain of salt.
    4. Re:Meanwhile, back in Denmark... by Celandro · · Score: 1
      First line in the article says the chip was intended for notebook computers:

      Some months back, Trident made much ado about its new DX9-class GPU that would take the mobile computing world by storm.

      If this isnt the case than thats just another strike against the article.

    5. Re:Meanwhile, back in Denmark... by InfernoBlade · · Score: 1

      Yup another strike against the article. There's another one, the XP4 T1 (or similar) that is coming out LATER for mobile computing. This is the desktop chip, which I believe is called the T2.

      Take a look at the testing environment page.

  6. Hardocp by davisshaver · · Score: 1

    Why I have not ever heard of this GPU before, I do not know. Anyone else not heard of it?

    --
    "What we have here is a failure to communicate"
    The Warden, Cool Hand Luke
  7. Horrible Review by Marx_Mrvelous · · Score: 5, Interesting

    They only test one resolution, 1600*1200! Maybe it's just me, but I don't see a lot of laptops with 1600* resolution. The whole review is only meant to make the card look bad, it doesn't take into consideration price, power/heat consumption, or other important factors. It is biased, shallow and not worthy of a /.ing!

    --

    Moderation: Put your hand inside the puppet head!
    1. Re:Horrible Review by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a desktop card, not a laptop card.

    2. Re:Horrible Review by be-fan · · Score: 4, Interesting

      A lot of laptops have 1600x1200 resolution. But what do laptops have to do with anything? These are desktop chips. And they do take into account price: they mention that even if these are significantly cheaper than the Radeon 9000 Pro, they suck so bad it still wouldn't be worth it. A Radeon 9000 Pro runs $80 these days. This thing would have to sell around $30 for it to be any good, and projected retail prices are a whole lot higher than that ($100). As for power consumption, who cares? AGP only provides 25 watts of power, and none of the tested cards used an extra power connector. Even if the Radeon 9000 used the full power, and this card use 1/5 the power, the difference of 20 watts is worth jack shit.

      --
      A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
    3. Re:Horrible Review by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      3W maximum power consumption certainly isn't bad, especially in the portable arena, but the question remains what part of the reduction, power input and graphics output, is due to shifting load from the GPU to the CPU. Or maybe it's just another chip dying because of bad drivers? In the end, it doesn't really matter. These framerates in current games at 1600x1200 foreshadow bad framerates in all new games even at lower resolutions. And that means it will be just another chip in the fig-leaf-3D class, for which it will probably be too expensive.

    4. Re:Horrible Review by pboulang · · Score: 3, Interesting
      They only test one resolution, 1600*1200! Maybe it's just me, but I don't see a lot of laptops with 1600* resolution. The whole review is only meant to make the card look bad, it doesn't take into consideration price, power/heat consumption, or other important factors. It is biased, shallow and not worthy of a /.ing!
      A) Why do you think this is for laptops only? Not that it matters, cause you don't often change the video card on your laptop..
      B) I agree the whole review stays away from the whole "calm objectivity" range of emotions. Face it, the reviewer was pretty upset about the poor showing, having expected better
      With its spec sheet and clock rates, we were looking forward to testing the XP4 - we hoped it would make things interesting in the GPU arena. But from out[sic] test results, the XP4 is dead on arrival.

      C) The article does take price into consideration:
      Even if XP4-based boards can substantially undercut the Radeon 9000 Pro on price, the woefully inadequate performance won't justify any amount of savings. Its 3D performance across the board is simply unacceptable versus present-day competition.
      --

      This comment is guaranteed*

      *not guaranteed

    5. Re:Horrible Review by rlangis · · Score: 1

      No? Our 1-year old Dell Inspiron 8100 with a 14.1" LCD uses 1400x1050. The 15" screen would go to 16x12. I expect that most, if not all, of currently-shipping laptops to do 1600x1200 easily.

      --
      GIR: I'm going to sing the Doom song now. Doom doom doom doom doom doom de-doom doom doom doom doom doom doom...
    6. Re:Horrible Review by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some months back, Trident made much ado about its new DX9-class GPU that would take the mobile computing world by storm. The XP4, a 30-million transistor tile-based architecture with hardware pixel shaders, was supposed to mop up the floor with ATI and nVidia.

      Until I read your post, I thought they were laptop chips, too. The misleading statement is the first line of the article (above), I think.

      -Sean

    7. Re:Horrible Review by homer_ca · · Score: 2, Informative

      Maybe Extreme Tech is catering to the high end gamer, but they state that they only test at 2 resolutions 1024x768x32 w/ 4xAA and 1600x1200x32. But hey the site's run by ZDnet so whaddaya expect? Comprehensive tests?

      Even assuming that the Trident's performance falls off disproportionately at high resolutions (so instead of 1/4 the speed of a GF4 Ti4200, it's maybe 1/3 the speed), it's still pretty pitiful. Nvidia's budget chip, the MX440, totally spanks it. It might be closer if you test the DX9 features that the Trident supposedly supports in hardware, but that's wait and see.

    8. Re:Horrible Review by MatthewRothenberg · · Score: 2, Interesting

      >>But hey the site's run by ZDnet so whaddaya expect? Comprehensive tests? Slightly off-topic point of clarification: ExtremeTech is run (and owned) by Ziff Davis Media, not ZDNet. Back in the day, Ziff and ZDNet were part of one company, but they were split apart a few years ago, and ZDNet was ultimately acquired by CNET. (I worked at Ziff, then spun out with ZDNet, rolled into CNET and came back to Ziff, so I've seen the whole process unfold from a number of angles.) Matthew Rothenberg Online editor Ziff Davis Media

    9. Re:Horrible Review by MatthewRothenberg · · Score: 1
      >>But hey the site's run by ZDnet so whaddaya expect? Comprehensive tests?

      Slightly off-topic point of clarification: ExtremeTech is run (and owned) by Ziff Davis Media, not ZDNet.

      Back in the day, Ziff and ZDNet were part of one company, but they were split apart a few years ago, and ZDNet was ultimately acquired by CNET. (I worked at Ziff, then spun out with ZDNet, rolled into CNET and came back to Ziff, so I've seen the whole process unfold from a number of angles.)

      Matthew Rothenberg
      Online editor
      Ziff Davis Media

    10. Re:Horrible Review by mabinogi · · Score: 1

      You would be suprised...

      Dell seems to be the best for Hi res screens...others may do them, but only on the extreme high end desktop replacement models, and even then they screw you in the video department...

      --
      Advanced users are users too!
    11. Re:Horrible Review by inquisitor · · Score: 1

      I own a Toshiba Satellite Pro 6100... afaik, Tosh actually make at least one of the 1600x1200 panels that Dell uses. It's got very decent video for a laptop (GF4 Go, separate DDR VRAM - same as the Dell Inspiron I compared it with), so there appears to be at least one exception to your statement. It's also more than a desktop replacement - real mobile P4, WiFi, Bluetooth, lasts more than two hours on battery... It's being repaired right now, but I'm not blaming them (hard drive failure).

      A friend owns a Dell Optiplex with a P4 2.53GHz and integrated i830 graphics - it runs UT2K3 so badly it's unplayable at everything higher than 640x480x16xreally-low-detail, so it'll be even worse on a laptop. Thankfully, I don't have that problem - admittedly I own the top-of-the-line model, but still...

  8. How about a more realistic review... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It would be interesting to see a review of the card at normal resolution (the target market for the Trident probably can't even do 1600x1200 on their monitor, 1024x768 is a more reasonable resolution), and comparing it to a typical two year old card.

    If it does hardware T&L and doesn't cost much, it would be a nice replacement for the ATI Rage 128 Pro that I have.

    1. Re:How about a more realistic review... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why? According to that review it will slower compared to Geforce4 MX-440 which costs $49. There a tons of cheap cards out there and there isn't simply room for Trident.

    2. Re:How about a more realistic review... by starling · · Score: 3, Informative

      They did test at 1024x768 after people asked in the comments section, and posted the results there. Performance was still pretty dismal.

  9. dead in the water? by MiTEG · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Hardly. The product reviewed was far from the polished final version we'll see in stores, and the drivers were beta and buggy. I'm not saying it will live up the "80% of a Ti4600" claim, but the price point will put it in competition with the vastly inferior MX series.

    Regardless, Trident's biggest customer has always been OEM's, so if they can deliver a cheap, decent card, they'll easily hit their target market.

    --
    The future isn't what it used to be.
    1. Re:dead in the water? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Radeon 9000 PRO is only about 20-30% faster than Geforce4 MX-440. This would mean that "inferior" MX series would be way faster than Tridents newest chip.

    2. Re:dead in the water? by InfernoBlade · · Score: 1

      nVidia has all the OEM's wrapped around their little finger these days. Try to show me a Dell, Gateway, or HP with Trident video, everyone I've seen has Intel Extreme (belch) or more likely a GF4 MX (yuck).

      ATI's been getting quite a few of them back though with the 9000s being cheaper than a GF4MX and performing much better in comparison. But Trident doesnt have a market anymore. They had a laptop one up til the mobile GF4s and Radeons, but they dont even have that anymore.

    3. Re:dead in the water? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, ever since I started get cavities after chewing their gum, I vowed never to buy a Trident product again...

  10. Unfair... by kinshadow · · Score: 1

    They compared it against a G4 4200 and a R9500. Shouldn't they have looked at a R7500 or mobile G 420/440 to be in the same price ballpark (~$100)?

    --
    Sigpilot : I'm in the pipe, 5 by 5.
    1. Re:Unfair... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Read the Claims moron, Trident says it will run at 80% of the Ti 4200. So yes, they would compare it to those to see if it lives up to that expectation(though it did not even come close)! If they said it would run at 100% of the R7500 and it did, I would put my money in the R7500(since it is a very good sub $100 dollar card). Thanks

  11. incorrect comparison? by magarity · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The review starts off saying this is a GPU for $100 cards and then compares it to GF4-4200 and ATI9500 Pro. Then proceeds to laugh at it for poor comparisons. Methinks Trident is going to laugh all the way to the bank when they clean up the cheap prebuilt box with embedded video market.

    1. Re:incorrect comparison? by MarkWPiper · · Score: 1
      Didn't the article state that this is a mobile computing graphics card. This just makes it an even more unfare comparison.

      If my laptop had my Geforce Ti 4200 inside it, it would not only be a furnace -- it would put an early demise to my chances of having children!! ;-)

    2. Re:incorrect comparison? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Check prices here: http://www.pricewatch.com/menus/m37.htm
      GF4-4200 costs only $113

    3. Re:incorrect comparison? by Jennifer+Ever · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, the GPU isn't ready for release. So by the time it hits the market, it may be competing, price-wise, with offerings from ATi and nVidia that perform similar to the cards they benchmarked it against. Of course, if Trident can increase performance a bit and keep the price down, they'll no doubt capture a good portion of the low-end market. That is, assuming ATi and nVidia aren't preparing similar products...

    4. Re:incorrect comparison? by atam · · Score: 2

      No, the XP4 T2 is a desktop chip. The article mentioned there will be a mobile variant XP4 T1 available soon. But I agree with you and others that it is unfair to compare it against Ti4200 and ATI Radeon 9500 Pro. Trident traditionally targeted the low-cost range of the market. So it is likely targeting the ~$50 segment while the other 2 cards are mid-range products.

    5. Re:incorrect comparison? by InfernoBlade · · Score: 1

      Radeon 9000 Pro, 128 MB, $99

      Laughing to the bank with that there? Or how about this: GF4 Ti4200 64 MB for $127

      Laughing all the way into Bankruptcy is more like it.

      *Note: I dont work for newegg, I just buy everything there

  12. Color me surprised. by MisterFancypants · · Score: 1

    Since when has Trident put out any videocard that didn't suck? Even in their prime, their chips were pretty bottom-of-the-barrel.. Like pre-Rage128 ATI, they never would have had any of the market if it weren't for the fact that they supplied cheap OEM solutions for bargain PCs.

    1. Re:Color me surprised. by noshellswill · · Score: 0

      Actually, pad're the Trident 9750s did OKey on the early *nix releases, while N-vidia like you had their nose-up-butt. It's a solid vidcard, that doesn't mind M$ either -- I still have one limping along on an old K-6 humping WinME.

    2. Re:Color me surprised. by MisterFancypants · · Score: 0, Flamebait
      Actually, pad're the Trident 9750s did OKey on the early *nix releases, while N-vidia like you had their nose-up-butt. It's a solid vidcard, that doesn't mind M$ either -- I still have one limping along on an old K-6 humping WinME.

      Heh typical poor Linux loser with a crappy old system. Your opinions mean nothing, pauper!

  13. Hrm this thing sounds DOA by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

    OK is it just me or does this thing sound DOA they need to get the clock up there to start comparing. Granted they may sell a ton of them for laptops and office PC's where 3 watts of heat and power makes it a nice offering for the speed that it does have. Dependant on how much MS pushes games to DX9 I'm sure they may sell a lot of there as upgrades at compusa and best buy it looks good on paper but thats about it.

    --
    No sir I dont like it.
  14. Less for more... by BSOD+from+above · · Score: 2, Interesting

    back when I was poor(college) I bought my first PCI card for $45. It was a trident 1Meg upgradeable to 2. It worked good for Doom. Now most of the new kit hitting the market is pure, unadulterated junk and it costs more. I fear this trend is related to the overall decline in the tech economy. I think I will hold out on my purchases until these companies find a way to put some cash back into thier R&D bugets and increase the quality of thier products. Maybe cut CEO salaries?

    --
    Karma: Censored (mostly affected by decency laws)
    1. Re:Less for more... by rugger · · Score: 1

      Huh,

      You brought a crap Trident PCI video card for a crap price, then have the balls to complain that modern video cards are all crap. And with no explaination or proof of your conclusion. LOL

      Despite the fact that:
      1) The 2d acceleration on modern AGP cards is vastly better than and old Trident provided.
      2) The 3d acceleration on even really cheap Nvidia cards is enough to power any game.
      3) You even get TV out for free on cheap GF4 MX.

      You can even get a GF4 MX440 for about $50, which barely costs more than your old PCI card.

      Since I have fallen for a troll, I'll shut up now!

  15. Ouchie! by wowbagger · · Score: 2

    (first, a note to story submitters - when possible, link to the printable link version of the story. It is SO much nicer to read.)

    Ouchie! Man, I wonder if Trident will EVER let these guys review ANYTHING again!

    I hope, for the sake of the engineers at Trident, that there was some major D'OH! in the code, and that this isn't where their product really falls.

  16. Geez, take a hint... by clubin · · Score: 3, Funny

    ... from the lack of posts. Don't you know we're oly interested in Microsoft's failed projects?

    P.S.: Anyone else experiencing extreme sluggishness about /. today? Earlier, I've had articles loading in background tabs for more than a minute. o_o

    P.S. Update (10 mins later)!: Ouch. Maybe it wasn't such a good idea, noting the above comment, to intoduce another step and try previewing before submitting. -_-

    1. Re:Geez, take a hint... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ./ has been damn slow for me all morning. At times it won't load at all and when the front page does load, it takes forever to get to the articles. But since I'm not paying for it, I have no right to bitch.

    2. Re:Geez, take a hint... by wildcard023 · · Score: 2

      It must be your video card. As shown from the story, submitting comments in slashdot at 1600x1200 should only be done on at GF4-4200 or a ATI 9500.

      --
      Mike

      --
      -- Mike wildcard@illuminatus.org
    3. Re:Geez, take a hint... by Ponty · · Score: 1

      I like how the ten useful tips are all suggestions to upgrade to XP.

    4. Re:Geez, take a hint... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Strange....half the MS Windows ME webpage are links trying to get you to update to XP.

    5. Re:Geez, take a hint... by GigsVT · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      You know, it's strange because /. is blazingly fast now. Maybe they were working on the network or something and installed some new lines.

      --
      I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
  17. Hmm... by flatface · · Score: 2, Funny

    That was a pretty bad review.. Matrox tried to "clean up the floor with nVidia and ATI" too and failed. At least they made a better attempt than Trident.

    I have a spare 2mb Trident in my P-75 that may compete with the XP4...

    1. Re:Hmm... by default+luser · · Score: 1

      I can do better. I have the ultimate Oxymoron:

      The Trident '3DImage' hasn't had Direct3D drivers since Windows 95.

      So I've got a "3D" card that's limited to DirectDraw. Not that I'd want to ( it runs DX5 games at about 10fps ). Obviously, a 3D core this slow was not worth perpetuation.

      But I will say one thing for Trident: although their older ISA cards were sluggish, I've found their later cards ( 3DImage and Blade3D ) to have clear and responsive 2D. So maybe they can eventually figure this whole 3D Accelerator thing out...

      --

      Man is the animal that laughs.
      And occasionally whores for Karma.

  18. was it fair? by ryochiji · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I admit that I don't know much about graphics cards or GPUs, and it's obvious that the Trident got smoked. But was it a fair comparison? According to the review, the Trident goes for under $100, yet they benchmark it against what appears to be higher end (more expensive) graphics cards.

    Wouldn't it be a more fair comparison if they benchmarked against cards of the same price range? If you were shopping for a cheap card, you obviously wouldn't expect it to perform as well as a more expensive card anyway, would you? What do others think?

    1. Re:was it fair? by SmartGamer · · Score: 1

      Even "to scale" to compensate for its dirt cheap price, it still doesn't stack up.

      --
      Warning: Poster of this comment is a nerd. Just like everybody else here.
  19. More of an error on the part of Trident marketing by Ryu2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Historically, for the last 6-7 years, Trident has always focused on the mobile graphics market, and in that space, they are much more dominant. The XP4 is basically an evolution of Trident's mobile GPUs, and is really intended for use in mobile systems, hence the considerations such as reduced transistor count, etc. There's little difference between the mobile XP4 and the desktop XP4, and yet Trident is marketing it as a desktop one.

    For a laptop, the 3D benchmark scores are actually quite decent.

    But for them to call it a desktop GPU is just asking for trouble, as the article clearly describes.

    --
    There's 10 types of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
  20. Losing sight of the target by TinyManCan · · Score: 5, Insightful
    You gotta love reviews like this. First he takes a product that is meant to go into *budget* *low-end* machines, and compares it to the upper echelon of *no cost spared* performance.

    Then he proceeds to run this card at 1600x1200 with beta drivers against cards with excellent debugged drivers. Any sort of numerical or empirical evidence he could get at this point is about .05% useful to me.

    Sure the thing may only get 4.9 FPS on a new demanding game at 1600x1200 with beta drivers. I bet you that same card will belt out over 60fps at 1024x768 when the real drivers are released.

    People seem to forget that a video card driver's quality can be the difference between horrible performance and class leading performance. If the driver is not debugged and performance optimzed, there is nothing a hardware designer could do to make that card perform well.

    I say that this is an excellent card that will allow users who do not want to spend $500 on a video card to play the latest and greatest games on the market. It is a Dx9 card, with full support. To me, this is an excellent card.

    I bet they sell a whole boatload of these things to OEM manufacturers and those who do not really want to spend an entire car payment on moving some pixels around. -TinyManCan

    1. Re:Losing sight of the target by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "You gotta love reviews like this. First he takes a product that is meant to go into *budget* *low-end* machines, and compares it to the upper echelon of *no cost spared* performance."

      Huh? Radeon 9000 PRO costs $82, are you saying that this is "upper echelon of *no cost spared*"???

      "I bet they sell a whole boatload of these things to OEM manufacturers and those who do not really want to spend an entire car payment on moving some pixels around"

      Why on the earth OEMs would replaces ATI/NVIDIAs cards with slower card costing the same?

    2. Re:Losing sight of the target by be-fan · · Score: 4, Informative

      People who know nothing shouldn't speak. The card was tested against a bunch of budget/midrange cards. On the low-end, the Radeon 9000 Pro starts at $80, while the "high-end" Radeon 9500 Pro goes all the way to $150. As for drivers, it could very well be that these drivers suck royally. But if they're this bad this late in the game, then what's Trident doing sending them out for review? Also, it must be noted that ATI's drivers aren't that great either, and that lots of beta drivers get tested (they are 'beta' not 'internal release' after all) and almost always they perform 50-70% as well as the final ones. So this card will get (at best) maybe 20 fps at 1024x768 with final drivers.

      --
      A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
    3. Re:Losing sight of the target by Pulzar · · Score: 4, Informative

      I think you're just being uninformed, and on top of it, you didn't read the article that you're criticizing.

      Making a quick visit to the pricewatch would show you that Radeon 9000 Pro, which is one of the cards XP4 was being compared to, can be found for $81.

      That's exactly the price target XP4 is going for, and it is performing less than 50% below R9000 Pro.

      The review even talks about the driver issue, and how fully optimized drivers give another 20-30% performance improvement, which still won't be enough to reach the level of the competition.

      --
      Never underestimate the bandwidth of a 747 filled with CD-ROMs.
    4. Re:Losing sight of the target by psychogentoo · · Score: 1

      Then he proceeds to run this card at 1600x1200 with beta drivers against cards with excellent debugged drivers. Any sort of numerical or empirical evidence he could get at this point is about .05% useful to me.

      Debugged drivers or not, Trident claimed that the GPU had 80% of the performance of the Geforce 4 Ti 4600. With those claims, it should perform better than the ~5 FPS even at the high resolutions despite the drivers.

      I bet you that same card will belt out over 60fps at 1024x768 when the real drivers are released.

      I'll prolly belt out over 60 FPS in a heated game of Solitaire.

    5. Re:Losing sight of the target by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Insightful, my ass. Who cares that it has DX9 support if it's running at 1/3rd of speed of a same-priced card? (you're saying that a $90 card is a "no cost spared" card? you must have a very low budget!) Any DX8 card with software emulation of DX9 will still be way ahead of this.

    6. Re:Losing sight of the target by Forkenhoppen · · Score: 2

      R9000 is a DirectX 8.1 part. XP4 is a DirectX 9.0 part.

      To execute 9.0 pixel shaders, the R9000 would have to render everything in software. Likewise, to execute 9.0 vertex shaders coupled with 8.1 pixel shaders, the R9000 would still have to calculate the vertex shaders in software. This is slow, and not always supported. (Some games don't work with software vertex shaders.) So this isn't a good comparison at all.

  21. Yes it was fair by InfernoBlade · · Score: 1

    The 9000 128 MB cards go for $100 street price these days, and the Ti4200s are only $20 more. The 9500 Pro is a prerelease part, MSRP of $199 less a $20 Mail-in rebate (street should hit $150 within 2 weeks I'd gather).

    The Trident card just sucked.... Trident talked some nice trash before release, just like Matrox with the Parhelia.

    1. Re:Yes it was fair by ckedge · · Score: 2

      Firstly, the Trident people were idiots to give their cpu to a site like "ExtremeTech" whose focus is on x-treme desktop gamers. They should have stuck to "cheap laptop enthusiast" sites ;)

      None the less:

      You're comparing a MSRP of below $100 vs a "super special online lowest price ever street deal" of $100 for a $150 desktop GPU.

      I can't find a *Retail* (vs OEM) price for the 9000 128 MB part below $150 USD here in Toronto.

      AFAIAK the reviewer clearly pulled a dumbass move by running a grossly unfair comparison (the worst possible - 1600x1200x32bit-fsaa against a 9500 and a 4200 - how stupid is he), and of course is now being highly defensive.

      Isn't the XP4 a *mobile* cpu? Does it use active cooling? Or passive? What about the Raedon 9000? So does that make them a good pair to compare?

      I'd like to see what the retail storefront price and the bulk-OEM prices are of a MOBILE version of the 9000 vs the XP4 and the performance comparison at 1024x768x16bit once they've released their FCS tile drivers for the XP4.

  22. Trident Releases PR Statement by Netw0rkAssh0liates · · Score: 2, Funny

    PR: It has come to our attention that many of our customers and critics are not satisfied with the review of our product as we previously shipped to them and received with deafed ears. The staff of www.extremetech.com have mis-interpreted Trident's XP4 product and have mis-applied our technology. In our initial PR Announcment of the XP4, we were received by listeners that our product will whipe-out the competition. Despite our best efforts to contact the staff of www.extremetech.com before they released the results, we have received much criticism and have now been given opportunity to make clear our statements. Our initial PR statment confirms that our product was not intended to whipe-out the competition; we meant that the XP4 will whipe the ass of our competitors. We understand the definite language barrier of our PR staff and the general international public. Over the past 6 months, Trident has become one of the greatest suppliers of industrial sand paper and the most abrasive toilette paper in the history of indoor plumbing of developed nations. The Trident XP4 is intended to provide the most dis-comfort in our competitors as its only use is to whipe their ass in the most abrasive fassion possible. We thankyou for your concern and please feel free to purchase more of Trident's innovative products.

    I thought this information should be re-layed to the slashdot community as it clears-up much of the incorrectly perceived statements. You know what happens with the SNAFU theorom these days...

    Sincerily,
    Bob Grover

    1. Re:Trident Releases PR Statement by og_sh0x · · Score: 1

      So they're going to kill their competition by "whipeing their ass" with extremely "abrasive toilette paper?"

    2. Re:Trident Releases PR Statement by LordDragonstar · · Score: 1

      Our initial PR statment confirms that our product was not intended to whipe-out the competition; we meant that the XP4 will whipe the ass of our competitors. We understand the definite language barrier of our PR staff and the general international public. Over the past 6 months, Trident has become one of the greatest suppliers of industrial sand paper and the most abrasive toilette paper in the history of indoor plumbing of developed nations. The Trident XP4 is intended to provide the most dis-comfort in our competitors as its only use is to whipe their ass in the most abrasive fassion possible.

      So what you're saying is your product will be covered in the blood and shit of your competitors? NO THANKS!

      Also if your competitors are wiping their asses with your product, whether or not it's uncomfortable, they are still using your product to wipe their asses with...which is still bad!

      PS I think your PR personel are suppose to be good at the whole general public/language barrier kinda thing. It may be a good time to get some new people in there...

      --
      sig: There are two mistaakes in this sig.
  23. RTFA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And you read the article did you? A DoA card managed to crank out frames in a game? And pulled 3000 3DMarks? Really...

  24. almost by AnonymousCowheard · · Score: 0

    (*laying down on stretcher, bleeding to death from mortal gunshot wound*)

    Trident XP4 is toilette paper!

    (variation inspired by Soilent Green)

    --

    But I'm sure you already Gnu that.
  25. DX9 class? by UberLame · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I failed to see any testing of its performance doing DX9 specific tasks. It obviously isn't going to smoke a GeforceFX card, but will it be better than a Geforce3 or Geforce4 at running DX9 and OpenGL 2.0 shaders?

    And I would have really liked to have seen them run the tests at 1024x768 anyway despite the lack of AA in the drivers.

    --
    I'm a loser baby, so why don't you kill me.
    1. Re:DX9 class? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bitch at Microsoft for not releasing DX9.

  26. Looks pretty bad. by BlackjackGuy · · Score: 1

    I think my old Tseng ET4000 would have smoked this thing.

  27. I need a 2ghz computer to run Word.... by Yo+Grark · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Ok one thing I didn't see (and IRTFA), was the overall "playability" of the games or applications.

    Dumb down the tests and give it to joe-six pack (you know, the ones who WON'T spend the extra 300 bucks for 30 trillion pixal shading?) and see what they think.

    Does it run the app fine? Does the game run smooth in a comfortable screensize?

    Being broke lately, I've come to appreciate that UT2003, or Dungeon Seige runs just fine on my celeron 533 with 512 meg ram, and while a more powerful graphics card would make it run even better, my 2 year old Gforce2 works just fine.

    Just fine for the Cheapo price I would pay for the same card nowadays.

    Extremetech turned me off of readership in the past by their lack of credible articles, and this just reinforces why I stopped reading it.

    Personal opinion should be available at the END of an article, not the beginning opening bias.

    Well my Word document just decided to unfreeze and let me save, so I will end this rant.

    Yo Grark
    Canadian Bred with American Buttering

    --
    Canadian Bred with American Buttering
    1. Re:I need a 2ghz computer to run Word.... by stratjakt · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Most didn't notice that they compared it to desktop cards, when the GPU is designed for mobile computing.

      I wonder how it stacks up against the S4 Savage, NoForce, mobile Radeon or intels Xtreme grafx.

      I mean "GPU designed for laptop not as cool as desktop gaming cards!" is kind of a no-shit conclusion.

      --
      I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
  28. Lets test an pre-fab sample with beta drivers! by bastardman · · Score: 0

    One time at engineering camp. We got a sample video card... and we tested it with incomplete drivers. It didn't work so well, so we said it sucked. Little did we know we were a bunch of idiots!

  29. They're both right by Ryan+C. · · Score: 4, Insightful

    They show the results of very different tests. 800x600 vs 1600x1200 resolution. That's a difference of 4x in required fill rate. Since neither of these tests were run at a relevant resolution (most laptops run around 1024x768), neither can be called conclusive. My guess it that Anand is waiting for more stable drivers to test "real" resolutions.

    The extremetech.com review is pretty unfair, it's like testing a new Ferrari by seeing how much cargo it can carry and then declaring it a bad car because it doesn't haul as much as a Ford Explorer. This card is aimed at lower resolution (lower fill rate) applications that require low power and cost. Having a DX9 entrant into this arena to me is welcome.

    We'll just have to wait for a real review to see if this card is any good.

    -Ryan C.

    --
    -Ryan C.
  30. Reasonable middle ground opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative
    Ouch! That review was particularly brutal!

    It makes me wonder why an AnandTech article [anandtech.com] gave such a different opinion. Which one is right?

    A more level-headed review, sitting more or less in the middle of both extremes can be found at ZDnet.

  31. Just summing up what I've read so far... by Salubri · · Score: 5, Informative

    It seems that Trident want's back into the GPU mainstream. They developed this card, the XP4, and are releasing it to benchmarkers early for reviewing purposes as many card makers do.

    In one review, we have extremetech maxing up the resolutions and detail levels of some heavy hitting games, in addition to a 3dmark benchmark, against two of the biggest cards out there. These cards are at least twice the MSRP of this card. Extremetech then complains that the inexpensive card with beta drivers doesn't tread water against the established champs.

    In a different review, anandtech set the resolution to something normal (how many gamers out there actually run the game at 1600x1200?) and they show the card as giving fluid performance, even beating the Radeon 9000 in one map. Albeit still behind the other two cards reviewed on some tests, they do mention that the drivers are beta and that finalized they will probably make the card perform much better.

    I've been noticing that extremetech's reviews seem really, well, extreme. At least from my perception they will give good reviews to what can keep pace with the top cards or exceed the top card - and at times seems to focus on the war between NVidia and ATI for the title of Supreme cardmaker.

    But how long ago was it that both of these companies were in Trident's situation? How long ago was it that these companies were struggling against 3dfx?

    Like many before me ahve said, wait and see. This card could turn out to be the best card price for performance wise. It could come out and have the mobile version do everything else in. It could come out and be complete crap against whatever new cards the twin titans come out with.

    --
    ----- I want my LART.
    1. Re:Just summing up what I've read so far... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "want's"? WTF are you smoking?

    2. Re:Just summing up what I've read so far... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      you know.. want's = want is

      Therefore: Trident want is back man! they want is into the GPU mainstream.

      ..on another note all your GPUs are belong to us

    3. Re:Just summing up what I've read so far... by Hellasboy · · Score: 1

      exactly!

      if you don't mind, i would like to add more to what you said.

      How many people in the market for a sub 100$ card are going to be running at 1600x1200 in the first place?
      How many people in the market for a sub 100$ card are going to have PIV 3.06 gHz cpus?

      This card is meant primarily for budget computers. Yes, it will probably list for 99$ but on the day they are released, I bet they will be going for ~70$ on pricewatch. Sure, a Geforce 4 Ti4200 is ~120$ and the ATI 9000 is ~100$, but for a person running a Duron 1.2 gHz, spending an extra 50$ on a chip for a 15" or 17" monitor that can only max out on 1280x1024 is a waste of money.

      This was a HORRIBLE review by extremetech. I mean, what were they thinking? "Let's review a sub 100$ video card with video cards that cost ~300$ when they first came out"? "Hey! let's review this BUDGET card at 1600x1200 with BETA drivers!"

      On a side note, I wonder how much power this chipset will use up? The notebook version may wipe the floor with the big two in the notebook arena with decent performance and great power consumption.

      --

      "Tread softly because you tread on my dreams"
    4. Re:Just summing up what I've read so far... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On pricewatch NOW, ati 9k is $81, ti4200 is $113, and 8500 is $64. It's faster competitors priced just above, at, & below NOW, let alone whenever Trident gets their cards out. The review was spot on.

  32. Whose fault is it anyways? by althalus · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    I've been getting the same issues. Timeout going to a comments page, slow loads. But beyond that I also was getting random changes to the pages themselves, like getting the large square ad placed in each headline on the main page. That's *really* getting the ad across, wonder how much osdn charges for that? :)

    So, IMHO they are probably making template changes or something to slash, and keep restarting the services. That would cause the problem.

  33. invidia demos by SniffleBear · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Doesn't anyone else notice that the nvidia geforce chipset 3D demos are a bit misleading. Sure, those things look awesome, and even better, they're in real time!

    The problem is, you won't even be able to see anything like that in a game anyways because there are more objects showing on the screen in a game. Heck, I bet a card that's 2 year older can pull something off like those demos with good graphics coding.

    I just wish they would show something more practical.

    1. Re:invidia demos by Datafage · · Score: 1

      You contradict yourself here. You say that the demos are impractical because there is more than one object on screen at once in the game, which is true. However, then you claim that an old card can do the same demo. If the old card COULD do the new demo at useful speed, the new card would be able to do multiple objects of that complexity, making the demo useful. Or are you saying the new card isn't any more powerful?

      --

      Nicotine free Amish .sig.

  34. You're assuming the market. by InThane · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Remember, this part is probably OEM targeted, not enthusiast marketed. Most users will say, "Gee, that thingamabob's got 2.4 gigahertz of RAM, wow it's fast!" and buy it, not realizing they got shafted on the video.

    Carry out this philosophy across the machine, and you can shave $100-200 off the price of the machine, at least.

    --
    InThane
  35. Trident by Vladinator · · Score: 0, Informative

    forever lost any business from me when the 4D wave sound card I bought new in 1999 didn't get Win2k drivers written for it (though 2k was out by the time the card was released). So, here's a card that works fine under Linux and such, but doesn't work at all with modern (windows) OS's. Worse, they refuse to even talk to you once you mention that you'd be willing to write the driver for them. Useless bags of shit. I'll never buy another Trident product as long as I live.

    --

    "Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion." - Jed Babbin

  36. no surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Yeah, so the Trident XP4 sucks. Well, what do you expect from a company that is mainly known for making sugarless chewing gum...

    1. Re:no surprise by Alien+Being · · Score: 2

      I dunno, 4 out of 5?

  37. kind of a pity by endrek · · Score: 0, Redundant

    I mean as much as I love my Nvidia products, more competition and good competition always makes things better. Sad this. Oh well, hopefully someone else may be able to enter the fray with ATI and nvidia at some later date

  38. No it wasn't fair! by arfonrg · · Score: 1

    The sub $100 Trident was being compared to $400+ cards!
    They should have compared it to comparable priced cards which now would be a Radeon 7000-8000 series!

    That test was a crock!

    If you look at the Radeon 9000 Pro, it's at $149.00 at CompUSA ATM but that's not even a fair comparison! It started out new at $400 and has dropped in price. The Trident is starting at $100 and will probably drop into the 30s.

    No card is worth it's introduction pricing and once it hits the below $50, I'd say it was a great deal!

    --
    Your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
    1. Re:No it wasn't fair! by Noehre · · Score: 1

      The 9000 Pro never cost $400.

      The 9000 and 9700 were released around the same time.

      At release, the 9000 was priced to compete with the 8500.

      Perhaps you are confused about the difference between the $80 9000 Pro and the $350 9700 Pro?

    2. Re:No it wasn't fair! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think compete is the correct word since they are both products of the same company.

    3. Re:No it wasn't fair! by Valdrax · · Score: 2

      Well, considering how Trident was talking up how these cards would get blown away by their new graphics card, I think the comparison is wholy fair.

      --
      If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
  39. Dumb reviewer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "In its current state, it'll be over before it even starts."

    So I'm supposed to respect someone's opinion who reviews an engineering sample using beta drivers and complains that it's buggy and less than spectacular?

    Until final silicon & official drivers are shipping his evaluation is worthless.

  40. MOD PARENT UP!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Seriously.

    Palestinian Terrorist Scum.

  41. Trident has always been crap! by andrewski · · Score: 1

    When I was in my early teens, I had the exquisite misfortune to be the owner of a series of Trident cards, starting with the TVGA8900C. Holy crap, what a smoking pile that thing was. I then upgraded to another card (I can't remember the model number) that was a 32-bit ISA card (remember those?)! It was a hair faster than the 8900, but the fucking thing wouldn't work with Linux. More recently, I had a buddy with a Trident card in his budget computer (made an E-Machine look like a friggin Cray) and that blew too.

    Now is the perfect opportunity for Trident to re-invent itself! Or, more likely, now is the time for Trident to come up with another crappy video card.

    1. Re:Trident has always been crap! by shepd · · Score: 1

      You know, until I experienced a Triden 8900, I never knew that a videocard could be a bottleneck for 80x25 text... It makes reading log files FUN!

      "Scotty, we need to scroll more than 1 screen per second"
      "Captain, I'm giving her all she's got. Any more and she'll start to get warm!"
      "Sulu, set the phasers to freeze!"

      --
      If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
    2. Re:Trident has always been crap! by andrewski · · Score: 1

      Spock: But, Captain, think about how small the pixels are. You can barely see them!

      Kirk: Spock, I don't give a damn about dot pitch. I need 1024x768!

    3. Re:Trident has always been crap! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      32-bit ISA card
      You must be talking about VESA local bus. Those died-out pretty quickly, but at the time, they were faster than the more expensive PCI versions of the same cards. It was a cheap hack, but it worked.

  42. Re:Crazy world... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Did you click the link? I dare you.

  43. Hmmmmm.... by Sj0 · · Score: 2

    Judging from the benchmarks, including the fill rate, I think there's probably something terminally wrong with the current silicon or drivers. Hopefully this will be worked out before the product ships.

    I say this because it seems odd that a card running at a reasonable clock speed with reasonably fast ram should run so slowly on fill-rate tests.

    --
    It's been a long time.
  44. well by Gavitron_zero · · Score: 1

    at least they're still doing okay selling gum.

  45. Isn't this the Parhelia all over again? by wackybrit · · Score: 1

    The Matrox Parhelia got some pretty bad reviews too. Matrox tried to get back into the market, and it seems like they're failing. The Parhelia is more expensive than speedier cards from nVidia and ATI, and it seems like a lame card to me. Why do they bother selling the bloody thing?

  46. The Essence Of Competition by tmi1090 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    For all the issues with XP4 driver performance today, I have no doubt the Trident folks will improve it just like all other competitors in the past .... Although the XP4 T3 with 128MBytes is listed at $99 MSRP, I would venture to guess that you will be able to buy it next month for less than $85, and next May 2003 for less than $60 (still with 128MBytes of course). Trident's main value to MOST of us (working consumers with LIMITED income) is their RELENTLESS competitive drive to bring down the cost of high-quality graphics (which so far only affordable to the elite few) starting with DX8.1 today and DX9.0 next summer. So here is my cautious forecast .... Next August 2003, Trident offering will include a full DX9.0 card with 256MBytes XP8 for $99 and a full DX8.1 card with 128MBytes XP4 for $59 - all will support the latest AGP-8X of course. This is why (I think) the OEMs, system integrators, retailers and distributors are so excited about Trident return to the desktop market. As a final note, in case you did not know .... It was a mere 45 days ago that the ATI 9000 Pro was selling for $149 with 128MBytes and everyone thought it was a GREAT price ! With Trident XP4 entering the 128Mbytes market with an incredible $99 MSRP, the 9000 Pro price has quickly dropped 33% or more to $99 and below ! I firmly believe that for us consumers, the surest way to get "the best deal in town" is by encouring more intense competition and not by killing it ...

  47. This card was not MEANT for the cutting edge gamer by Maul · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Despite what their marketing might say, Trident is obviously not REALLY trying to compete with the latest and greatest from nVidia and ATI. This is obviously piece of budget hardware for people who don't want to pay a whole lot to get DX 9 compatible card.

    Sure, if I build a gaming rig, this isn't the card I'm going to use. I'm going to spend the cash for a high end card, and probably brag about my insane frame rates the next time I take it to a LAN party.

    On the other hand, if I built a PC for someone who isn't planning on playing Doom 3 extensively, I might actually consider a card of this calibur. It is a DX 9 card for under $100. This is probably a decent choice for a bargain PC.

    --

    "You spoony bard!" -Tellah

  48. Re:What's the best way to serve JEWS? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So a joke about camel fuckers gets modded off topic, while a joke about hebes is a troll?

    Fucking kike moderators. Go back to Israel so we can gas the *entire* Middle East and rid the world of you all.

  49. Exactly -- it's a budget chipset by msobkow · · Score: 2

    There was no point comparing a card targetted at the sub-100 market against boards in the $400-500 market.

    Budget cards sell to budget markets, which means a 17" monitor that will do 1280x1024x75Hz with some degree of acceptability. Testing performance at 1600x1200 was pointless for this market.

    This chipset is designed for a market where the whole system (less monitor) is selling for prices comparable to top of the line NVidia and ATI cards. It's not intended to compete with those cards, but to provide a tolerable experience on a cheap system.

    --
    I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
  50. If this is a laptop GPU by The+Analog+Kid · · Score: 2, Insightful

    why are they benching it against Desktop GPU's, obviously no matter what the laptop GPU the equivilent class GPU would always be better. Why don't you atleast bench it against mobile GPUs.

  51. Correction by msobkow · · Score: 2

    The boards being compared are in the roughly $100 market. Unless the Trident chipset hits the sub $50 integrator market, they're DOA.

    --
    I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
  52. A bad computer hardware review by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I thought those went with the dodo bird? Really though, even if the card is weak performance for the price of a Radeon 9000 Pro... What was I saying?

  53. Tridents suck... period by James+Littiebrant · · Score: 1

    In all my life i have yet to see a competitive trident on the market. For the same money a Trident costs you could buy a Geforce 2 or 3 and those are a lot better.

  54. Re:Crazy world... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't need to, as my status bar has this wonderful ability to show me the URL of a link.

    Alas, you have inspired me.

    How did you ever
    Become so darn clever,
    That with the pull of a lever,
    You shit goes swirling away?

    It must be a trick,
    For not all are so quick,
    That with but a click
    your idiocy is plain as day.

    As blind lead the blind,
    Another surely will find,
    And being led by your kind,
    Insure idiocy is to stay.

    One certianty is known,
    To cause all others moan,
    That when you mount the throne,
    You have nothing intelligent to say.

    -Profitoer Stultus

  55. Anandtech by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have followed Anandtech regularly since 2000 and the writers have never cracked jokes at a poor performing piece of equipment (even if it deserved it).

    If you read through the 3DMark scores, ExtremeTech puts the following spin on the XP4:

    As these scores show, the XP4 comes out of the gate gasping and saying "Let's get ready to stumble" .

  56. Folks, we're talking DX9 here! by Mipmap · · Score: 1

    Okay, yes, 1600x1200 is unrealistic to benchmark this bargain basement chip. But, DX9 is nothing to sneeze at. It's Renderman in realtime people. Sure this chip may do great on games already released, but what about DX9 games coming down the pike in the next 90 days? Personally, I wouldn't buy it if it can't cut it for at least 180 days. (Extreme for Slashdot readership, yes, but hey, my Nissan's got 110,000 miles on it). Me thinks this Trident chip is DX9 compatible in name only.

  57. Back from the dead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Trident: I'm not dead!
    Slashdot: 'Ere, he says he's not dead.
    ExtremeTech: Yes he is.
    Trident: I'm not!
    Slashdot: He isn't.
    ExtremeTech: Well, he will be soon, he's very ill.
    Trident: I'm getting better!
    ExtremeTech: No you're not, you'll be stone dead in a moment.
    Slashdot: Well, I can't take him like that. It's against regulations.
    Trident: I don't want to go on the cart!
    ExtremeTech: Oh, don't be such a baby.
    Slashdot: I can't take him.
    Trident: I feel fine!
    ExtremeTech: Oh, do me a favor.
    Slashdot: I can't!
    ExtremeTech: Well, can you hang around for a couple of minutes? He won't be long.
    Slashdot: I promised I'd be at the Robinsons'. They've lost nine today.
    ExtremeTech: Well, when's your next round?
    Slashdot: Thursday.
    Trident: I think I'll go for a walk!
    ExtremeTech: You're not fooling anyone, you know. Isn't there anything you could do?
    Trident: I feel happy! I feel happy!
    [Slashdot glances up and down the street furtively, then silences the Body with his a whack of his club.]
    ExtremeTech: Ah, thank you very much.
    Slashdot: Not at all. See you on Thursday.
    ExtremeTech: Right.

  58. Review shows extremetech's ignorance of XP4 by Kaizyn · · Score: 4, Insightful

    While most of the /.ers have noted that the review of the XP4 on extremetech was unfair, they may not realize just how unreasonable extremetech was in putting this sub-$100 card against the best cards on the market.

    Because the XP4 deviates from the long-established, direct-mode rendering (which is a brute force method) for tile-based rendering, they are going to need a lot of time to get their drivers in order before they will be able to compete properly with the familiar video cards. The only other card mainstream card that attempted this rendering approach was the Kyro series, which demonstrated that tile-based rendering does have huge potential and that drivers will make or break the card's performance.

    Interesting enough, because video cards using the tile-based rendering method are more efficient by 200-300%* when compared to cards using the traditional method, they should see a much lower performance decrease as the screen resolution is increased when compared against direct-mode renderers (e.g. NVidia NV9 cards and ATI Radeon 9500s). While it's true that fill rates do increase substantially with increased resolution, direct-mode renderers simply will experience that much more overfill.

    *Direct-mode renderers have an overfill rate of about 2 or 3; this means that for every pixel visible two or three more have been rendered and then disgarded. Tile-based renderers, on the other hand, disgard everything that won't be visible first and only render what's left, giving them an overfill of 0. Figuring out what to cull first before rendering has begun is more complicated than culling excess pixels after they are rendered; this complexity is what makes writing the drivers for a tile-based renderer such a difficult task.

    Trident has set for themselves an incredibly difficult challenge: 1) Make a card that uses a tile-based rendering method, which means throwing out nearly everything the graphics card industry has learned the past couple decades. 2) In addition to the first task, they have added the complexity of sharing graphical resources, thus adding all the timing problems associated with such a configuration. If they achieve only 50% of the performance of Nvidia's Geforce4 TI4600, that alone would be a considerable achievement. If Trident meets the 80% performance target they set for themselves, it will be all the more impressive.

  59. What?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Trident's not dead yet? Waaah, hard to believe!

    Wasn't their popularity peak around the same time as Alpha chips'? Ok, time to die Trident!

    The only good thing about my Trident video card was that I could take its memory to add more to my Gravis Ultrasound!

  60. Not only that by fferreres · · Score: 2

    What really matters is what chipset would the OEM have used if this cheapo chipset wasn't arround. If the OEM are the really cheap ones, they will probably use this to replace the old savage chipsets and the likes. If it's a "second-cheapest" OEM they will probably be using ATI bottom line chipsets.

    So, people buying the cheapest motherboards on earth are benefiting. And that includes many of my friends or people I know.

    Yes, they can try to buy a separate ATI card, or go for a better motherboard with more decent card, but at least you have a basic right there in your cheapo initial buy. If you never make it to buy the radeon 9500, then at least you have something (that is in fact faster than ANY card of two years ago).

    I mean, people that buy latest-greatest are paying $300 for the privilege of running the cards the rest of the world have two years ahead (Not saying it's not worth, but time is the key here, not crap/cool). At some point I payed extra to have it BEFORE (couldn't wait, Voodoo could really do things no other could do) but I do not feel so pressed now. So welcome back Trident!

    --
    unfinished: (adj.)
  61. mainstream... by Barbarian · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Since when does the mainstream computer user play games in 1600x1200? Even mid-range 17" monitors are going to get fuzzy in 1600x1200, 1280x1024 or 1024x768 is much more likely.

  62. Not all of them suck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For simple 2D work (ie console, X11) The later models worked great. I have a 9660 and a 9680 lying around somewhere that I would throw in something if I needed to. Luckily I have crappy 4 meg 3D cards sitting around so I prefer to use those.

    Granted, these cards don't come with a lot of memory, I think they are both 2 meg cards, but I don't usually use a resolution greater than 800x600. I don't see the point. The type gets small, and I seem to run into huge problems when I change font sizes to compensate.

  63. Trident king of gfx? right... by sad_ · · Score: 1

    Oh boy, like i needed a benchmark to tell me a trident card isn't the fastest around. Trident vga cards, conner hard drives and pcchips mb's are all part of my traumatic pc past. Everybody avoided those things like the plague. They came standard in the cheapest pc's money could buy, and that was the only thing they were good for. (even though the products with a higher quality weren't that much higher in price, they we worth it because you had less problems in the end.)

    --
    On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
  64. Last Post! by alpg · · Score: 1

    The following quote is from page 4-27 of the MSCP Basic Disk Functions
    Manual which is part of the UDA50 Programmers Doc Kit manuals:

    As stated above, the host area of a disk is structured as a vector of
    logical blocks. From a performance viewpoint, however, it is more
    appropriate to view the host area as a four dimensional hyper-cube, the
    four dimensions being cylinder, group, track, and sector.
    . . .
    Referring to our hyper-cube analogy, the set of potentially accessible
    blocks form a line parallel to the track axis. This line moves
    parallel to the sector axis, wrapping around when it reaches the edge
    of the hyper-cube.

    - this post brought to you by the Automated Last Post Generator...