What else besides Microsoft stuff have you developed in? What does.Net provide that say Java doesn't that gives you more productivity?
What type of applications do you develop with.Net that give you this productivity increase? How much of an increase would you say it is over other languages like Java? Why?
I am being serious about these questions because every time I hear someone say what you just typed they have not worked with anything but Microsoft development tools. Yes they may have had a college class or two with some other language, but no real development. I continue to talk to "developers" who think that Java web development is still servlets. They have no clue about JSP's let alone custom tags.
Does that mean I think.net, well specifically c# is bad? No, but there will always be that one limitation... only runs on Microsoft servers.... Don't fool yourself in to thinking you will run any serious app on anything but Windows.
That is true with the new 1.4.2, however the 1.3 runtime was only around 5MB. I will have to check to see what the heck they added. Either way 5MB-20MB. It is a one time download. It isn't that big of a deal, if it is then you should find another way of delivering the application.
Oh yeah by the way the last service pack for Windows 2k was WAY WAY WAY WAY bigger than 20MB. Some of them have been upwards of 100MB. People seem to be ok with that.
I still don't agree that having users of your system do a one time download (only if they don't have the correct jvm) is a horrible thing. If it is then this should come as no supprise to you anyway. Microsoft has been trying to dump Java since 1.2, somewhere back in 1999 or so. I am not trying to be harsh or anything to you, I am a Java developer and understand the issues you face, but we have known about this issue for over 4 years now and should have been working on a different solution.
What do all those dial up users do when a new version of shockwave or flash comes out? I put up with this on http://www.playhousedisney.com all the time with my little one. You just suck it up and download and install it.
The real issue for Sun is to get HP/IBM/Gateway/Dell and Apple to pre-load the latest JVM, heck even their IDE would be nice. That and getting AOL to ship it helps. Or they could just start releasing porn videos that required a new JVM...:-):-)
Either way good luck. I haven't had the opportunity to work with Webstart, but if I were you I would be checking it out.
I agree with most of what you said. However people not downloading a "new" JVM is becoming far less of an issue. As more and more people get higher speed access to the net and the download/install of the jvm gets better this will become a non-issue. The current JVM is around 5MB and installs without much of a problem on Windows. This is little different than flash. A new version comes out and if I want to view that site, I have to download it and install it.
Now for the more serious matter. You better stop developing applets. They are almost dead. Look at the webstart stuff. That appears to be the direction Sun has been going for a while now. Also, I don't see how you are in any worse of a position now than before this agreement between Sun and Microsoft took place, in regards to Applets. Microsoft was NEVER EVER going to ship a Sun 1.2 or 1.3 or 1.4 or 1.5 compatable JVM. Most developers knew this for a while. The last thing Microsoft wants is for their OS to not be needed.
There are a few factors you left out. 1. Inflation. So that $150 computer may feel like a $25 one today. This appears to further your point. Until you look at the next two points.
2. Computer hardware sales margins. They use to be great in the late 80's and early 90's. Then they slowly went to almost nothing. You can kindof see this over the last few years in that a fair machine is still around $700 (U.S.), and has been for a while. So people use to make 30% on a PC sale now make less than 5. This won't go down much lower over the next few years.
3. Software will get more complex, but the libraries to do stuff will get better. To open a Window on a machine use to take quite a bit of work. It is a joke now. To open a thread and to code a multi-threaded app use to be a big deal, and it is easier today.
I will disagree that the coding of business logic will get more difficult, or more to your point "Custom Programs". I think what you mean is a program that does some piece of business logic. Just in the Java world alone, tools have gotten a ton better at delivering custom apps. I can only imagine in a few years a developer will be able to focus on "business logic" instead of spending time writing all the crap to make a "web service or ejb) Do I think it will get to were Gates says? Possibly, but I see it going two directions. One will be a more open/flexible way of development, an example of this might be JAVA/JSP/Oracle now. This is a fairly flexible way of development and the tools are getting better all the time. The second way of developent will be a vendor specific tool that will let you bang out applications quickly, but at a cost of flexibility. An example of this might be the new FileMaker. It can jam out web apps very quickly, but you are limited to their proprietary language and only their tools for development. (Yes I know you can hook JDBC to it, but it is an example). Some refer to this as a tightly coupled system vs a loosly coupled system. Gates appears to favor the tightly (Microsoft controlled) systems. It doesn't supprise me.
Re:Menus and DDLs are nice - a bit like OSX
on
GNOME 2.6 Reviewed
·
· Score: 4, Insightful
Just for "XP-using Teletubby-land loving hordes"
You must get modded a +5 Interesting...
I haven't laughed that hard in a while.
Now as another poster said. Very few are going to download this on the web and compile it. Most will wait for SuSe/RedHat/Mandrake et all to put it in their distibution. Notice that this guy said it took almost 6 hours to set up! Heck he even considered it good that it only had 3 errors he had to manually fix. No "teletubby" is going to be able to do that.
I am a little confused a 60+" monitor at 10 feet would look similar to a 19" monitor 2 feet away.
I do agree that I like to play games like Never Winter Nights on a computer, but then I would say that it might be cool on a great TV also. I could see something like a wireless trackball and keyboard that would work well.
The issue that I see is that most people have a computer and don't mind letting their kids bang on it for a few hours a night WHILE they watch TV. They don't have the money to spend on two 60"+ TV's. OR They have multiple TV's but one good one, and they don't mind letting the kids play with their gamecube/ps2 whatever while they either watch them or watch another tv.
So like I said, I do agree with your point, but perhaps not for the same reasons.
A 60+ inch HDTV will get very close. Understand that I agree with you, and love a monitor also (currently playing NWN Hoards). But right now the difference is huge ~700X500 resolution compared to your 1280X1024. But some HDTV's do 1280X720 (16:9), and that is a heck of a lot closer to what your monitor currently puts out.
I will say this. I won't miss having to constantly download patches to crappy PC games or constantly update my video drivers and pray it doesn't break anything. I am specifically talking to any ATI and BLIZZARD people out there.
My rant... BLIZZARD quit making games and then releasing a patch that pimps players.
Now lets get back to reality. If Dell did as you mentioned they would be either out of business or almost out of buisness within two years, maybe shorter.
Also, by the law. It is not illeagle to have a monopoly, just to use it to crush out any other competiton from entering the market.
Lastly, I completely understand my sig. I would love for OEM's to have the FREEDOM to do what they like without the retaliation of Microsoft putting them out of business, they way it is now they can't and that hurts competition in the application space, which in turn hurts me the customer.
What do you think would happen to Dell if they did this? Suddenly their PC's are now $100 more AND they find themselves getting the "latest" OS a few months later than everybody else. Now seeing that Microsoft IS a monopoly, Dell has no choice but to bow to their pressure. If they don't they may not be in business long enough to HOPE AND PRAY that someone else comes along with an OS that people will want.
Heck when a new PC cost $500 a $100 increase in the OS is HUGE. They would drive Dell out of business. This at the expense of giving customers a choice is bad. It also hurts competition and is illeagle.
The problem comes in when a company like real or Netscape comes out with a product that is good and then Microsoft does two things. They come out with a similar product, bundle it in the OS and then force/threaten their OEM's not to install the competitors. That is what is wrong.
Let's take your list. What if IBM/HP/DELL/Gateway decided to bundle: OpenOffice FileMaker Winzip RealPlayer Mozilla (and change the default browser) GIMP Suns/IBM's JDK with Eclipes
Could they do this for almost no cost? Yep. Then Microsoft would suddenly raise the cost of EACH version of windows that IBM/HP or Dell buys (Like they did to IBM. Dell got Windows for ~$10 while IBM got it for ~$100.00, and they wouldn't sign any deal with IBM for MONTHS after the new OS was released, thus killing IBM desktop sales during that time)
So yes, I agree that I want a bunch of stuff bundled with my OS. (With the ability to not load it) But I hope that you would agree that most people want the best software bundled at the lowest price. We currenlty don't have that CHOICE. That is what is hurting consumers.
Dude relax. My point is to take what scientist say as fact can get you killed. Just ask the first few astronauts that killed at the launch pad, or the people that believed in global cooling in the 1960's. This is not to say that all of them suck, or that their work is worthless, far from it.
I just remember Carl Sagan on CNN during the first war with Iraq. He said that the world would be covered in darkness when the oil wells got lit. He implied that only a few would need to get lit to have this happen. The government scientist then said that he did not believe this would happen. CNN took the government scientist to the wall over this issue. I honestly believe that CNN was sad that the war went so well AND that Carl was wrong.
That holds true until price is zero, then all you need is acceptable quality and performance. Also notice that I did not say FREE but FREEdom. There is a HUGE difference.
In the late 90's it was once said by venture capital types looking at putting money in to a software company... "Is Microsoft going to develop anything like this". The reason being that "IF" they did then, even if the product sucked, it would be cheaper and then it would drive this new company out of business. Well, now instead of Microsoft, it is open source.
You don't see many new closed source Web servers being developed do you? How about any new SQL databases?
You and I would agree that if there is good quality closed source programs, and they can be cost justified, some companies will use it. That software MUST add value to the company though, and there better not be a "good enough" open source solution. Granted there are many in I.T. today that just buy whatever Microsoft/Oracle/IBM puts out, but those types are quickly being replaced, or because of cost they are "looking" at other alternatives.
In my opinion it is not a good day to be a software development shop. Too bad for all those Indian programmers out there...
Good points, and being the one that started this thread, I would like to say that I do believe in God and evolution. However it kills me to see the so called scientist that say that evolution is fact. I wouldn't mind so much if they at least said "To the best of our knowledge now..." this is what we believe. Those same people said. 1. Global cooling is real (1960's) 2. Global warming is real (1980's+) 3. The Atkins diet will not work:-) 4. Ok, the Atkins diet will work:-) 5. Eggs are bad for you... wait check that....... You get the idea
It is my belief that God created everything, now how he did it, I have no clue, but it did start with God. Granted this is all way off topic...
Ok, without a cell phone or pager how is he/she suppose to get notified? I have had companies try this stuff before and all it takes is some downtime and you will have a cell phone/pager.
Ape/people? I would imagine that we would find some race of people that didn't evolve as fast as the rest... and no you can't count your harry uncle Bill...
I am not saying evolution is wrong, but to say that it IS absolutely correct would also be inaccturate, you can show that some things have evolved, and that humans have evolved to a point, but we cannot say with absolute certainty that humans evolved from apes.
Also, as far as winning the 1 million; it has be repeatable. Man that one would have been tough even for the people who saw Christ after his death. Just because someone can't reproduce something time and time again doesn't make it wrong. Granted that isn't the point of the contest, but it is the spirit of the contest...
Now back to the topic.
The guy posted processors and hard drives that DON'T EXIST. He only takes pay-pal. Hmmmm you would have to have some real FAITH to buy from him:-)
Ok, what he wants is to know is two things. 1. That Microsoft Word will now open from cache in.1 second as apposed to 2 seconds. A 100% increase in speed!!! 2. That FPS game *.* will get an extra 5FPS in 640x480. Granted he will never play it at that level.:-)
You bring up excellent points, but there doesn't seem to be adware targeting Apple and Linux, also I think the core issue is with Microsoft using two things. 1. The registry 2. System Recover.
While I like the system recover feature of XP, the adware guys have found ways to incode their crap in it, and make removal a real pain. The registry, while I understand some of it's usefulness, is an issue. I have heard Microsoft is going to phase it out.
My point is that it might be true that Apple and Linux would have as many problems, they don't now. They probably won't in 5 years. I have also focused my discussion only on adware/virus/spyware stuff. Apple and Linux both have other MAJOR issues when compared to Microsoft Windows. The greatest is of course software and drivers...
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What else besides Microsoft stuff have you developed in? What does .Net provide that say Java doesn't that gives you more productivity?
.Net that give you this productivity increase? How much of an increase would you say it is over other languages like Java? Why?
.net, well specifically c# is bad? No, but there will always be that one limitation... only runs on Microsoft servers.... Don't fool yourself in to thinking you will run any serious app on anything but Windows.
What type of applications do you develop with
I am being serious about these questions because every time I hear someone say what you just typed they have not worked with anything but Microsoft development tools. Yes they may have had a college class or two with some other language, but no real development. I continue to talk to "developers" who think that Java web development is still servlets. They have no clue about JSP's let alone custom tags.
Does that mean I think
That is true with the new 1.4.2, however the 1.3 runtime was only around 5MB. I will have to check to see what the heck they added. Either way 5MB-20MB. It is a one time download. It isn't that big of a deal, if it is then you should find another way of delivering the application.
Oh yeah by the way the last service pack for Windows 2k was WAY WAY WAY WAY bigger than 20MB. Some of them have been upwards of 100MB. People seem to be ok with that.
the Java runtime is around 5MB.
I still don't agree that having users of your system do a one time download (only if they don't have the correct jvm) is a horrible thing. If it is then this should come as no supprise to you anyway. Microsoft has been trying to dump Java since 1.2, somewhere back in 1999 or so. I am not trying to be harsh or anything to you, I am a Java developer and understand the issues you face, but we have known about this issue for over 4 years now and should have been working on a different solution.
:-) :-)
What do all those dial up users do when a new version of shockwave or flash comes out? I put up with this on http://www.playhousedisney.com all the time with my little one. You just suck it up and download and install it.
The real issue for Sun is to get HP/IBM/Gateway/Dell and Apple to pre-load the latest JVM, heck even their IDE would be nice. That and getting AOL to ship it helps. Or they could just start releasing porn videos that required a new JVM...
Either way good luck. I haven't had the opportunity to work with Webstart, but if I were you I would be checking it out.
Ah but then I would actually have to quote him correctly.
I agree with most of what you said. However people not downloading a "new" JVM is becoming far less of an issue. As more and more people get higher speed access to the net and the download/install of the jvm gets better this will become a non-issue. The current JVM is around 5MB and installs without much of a problem on Windows. This is little different than flash. A new version comes out and if I want to view that site, I have to download it and install it.
Now for the more serious matter. You better stop developing applets. They are almost dead. Look at the webstart stuff. That appears to be the direction Sun has been going for a while now. Also, I don't see how you are in any worse of a position now than before this agreement between Sun and Microsoft took place, in regards to Applets. Microsoft was NEVER EVER going to ship a Sun 1.2 or 1.3 or 1.4 or 1.5 compatable JVM. Most developers knew this for a while. The last thing Microsoft wants is for their OS to not be needed.
There are a few factors you left out.
1. Inflation. So that $150 computer may feel like a $25 one today. This appears to further your point. Until you look at the next two points.
2. Computer hardware sales margins. They use to be great in the late 80's and early 90's. Then they slowly went to almost nothing. You can kindof see this over the last few years in that a fair machine is still around $700 (U.S.), and has been for a while. So people use to make 30% on a PC sale now make less than 5. This won't go down much lower over the next few years.
3. Software will get more complex, but the libraries to do stuff will get better. To open a Window on a machine use to take quite a bit of work. It is a joke now. To open a thread and to code a multi-threaded app use to be a big deal, and it is easier today.
I will disagree that the coding of business logic will get more difficult, or more to your point "Custom Programs". I think what you mean is a program that does some piece of business logic. Just in the Java world alone, tools have gotten a ton better at delivering custom apps. I can only imagine in a few years a developer will be able to focus on "business logic" instead of spending time writing all the crap to make a "web service or ejb) Do I think it will get to were Gates says? Possibly, but I see it going two directions. One will be a more open/flexible way of development, an example of this might be JAVA/JSP/Oracle now. This is a fairly flexible way of development and the tools are getting better all the time. The second way of developent will be a vendor specific tool that will let you bang out applications quickly, but at a cost of flexibility. An example of this might be the new FileMaker. It can jam out web apps very quickly, but you are limited to their proprietary language and only their tools for development. (Yes I know you can hook JDBC to it, but it is an example). Some refer to this as a tightly coupled system vs a loosly coupled system. Gates appears to favor the tightly (Microsoft controlled) systems. It doesn't supprise me.
Just for
"XP-using Teletubby-land loving hordes"
You must get modded a +5 Interesting...
I haven't laughed that hard in a while.
Now as another poster said. Very few are going to download this on the web and compile it. Most will wait for SuSe/RedHat/Mandrake et all to put it in their distibution. Notice that this guy said it took almost 6 hours to set up! Heck he even considered it good that it only had 3 errors he had to manually fix. No "teletubby" is going to be able to do that.
I am a little confused a 60+" monitor at 10 feet would look similar to a 19" monitor 2 feet away.
I do agree that I like to play games like Never Winter Nights on a computer, but then I would say that it might be cool on a great TV also. I could see something like a wireless trackball and keyboard that would work well.
The issue that I see is that most people have a computer and don't mind letting their kids bang on it for a few hours a night WHILE they watch TV. They don't have the money to spend on two 60"+ TV's. OR They have multiple TV's but one good one, and they don't mind letting the kids play with their gamecube/ps2 whatever while they either watch them or watch another tv.
So like I said, I do agree with your point, but perhaps not for the same reasons.
A 60+ inch HDTV will get very close. Understand that I agree with you, and love a monitor also (currently playing NWN Hoards). But right now the difference is huge ~700X500 resolution compared to your 1280X1024. But some HDTV's do 1280X720 (16:9), and that is a heck of a lot closer to what your monitor currently puts out.
I will say this. I won't miss having to constantly download patches to crappy PC games or constantly update my video drivers and pray it doesn't break anything. I am specifically talking to any ATI and BLIZZARD people out there.
My rant...
BLIZZARD quit making games and then releasing a patch that pimps players.
Well one of your arguments starts to go away with HDTV. Specifically 1080i.
Now as far as controllers go, I agree, but that will probably be handled in a while.
Now lets get back to reality. If Dell did as you mentioned they would be either out of business or almost out of buisness within two years, maybe shorter.
Also, by the law. It is not illeagle to have a monopoly, just to use it to crush out any other competiton from entering the market.
Lastly, I completely understand my sig. I would love for OEM's to have the FREEDOM to do what they like without the retaliation of Microsoft putting them out of business, they way it is now they can't and that hurts competition in the application space, which in turn hurts me the customer.
What do you think would happen to Dell if they did this? Suddenly their PC's are now $100 more AND they find themselves getting the "latest" OS a few months later than everybody else. Now seeing that Microsoft IS a monopoly, Dell has no choice but to bow to their pressure. If they don't they may not be in business long enough to HOPE AND PRAY that someone else comes along with an OS that people will want.
Heck when a new PC cost $500 a $100 increase in the OS is HUGE. They would drive Dell out of business. This at the expense of giving customers a choice is bad. It also hurts competition and is illeagle.
The problem comes in when a company like real or Netscape comes out with a product that is good and then Microsoft does two things.
r
They come out with a similar product, bundle it in the OS and then force/threaten their OEM's not to install the competitors. That is what is wrong.
Let's take your list. What if IBM/HP/DELL/Gateway decided to bundle:
OpenOffice
FileMaker
Winzip
RealPlaye
Mozilla (and change the default browser)
GIMP
Suns/IBM's JDK with Eclipes
Could they do this for almost no cost? Yep. Then Microsoft would suddenly raise the cost of EACH version of windows that IBM/HP or Dell buys (Like they did to IBM. Dell got Windows for ~$10 while IBM got it for ~$100.00, and they wouldn't sign any deal with IBM for MONTHS after the new OS was released, thus killing IBM desktop sales during that time)
So yes, I agree that I want a bunch of stuff bundled with my OS. (With the ability to not load it) But I hope that you would agree that most people want the best software bundled at the lowest price. We currenlty don't have that CHOICE. That is what is hurting consumers.
Dude relax. My point is to take what scientist say as fact can get you killed. Just ask the first few astronauts that killed at the launch pad, or the people that believed in global cooling in the 1960's. This is not to say that all of them suck, or that their work is worthless, far from it.
:-)
I just remember Carl Sagan on CNN during the first war with Iraq. He said that the world would be covered in darkness when the oil wells got lit. He implied that only a few would need to get lit to have this happen. The government scientist then said that he did not believe this would happen. CNN took the government scientist to the wall over this issue. I honestly believe that CNN was sad that the war went so well AND that Carl was wrong.
As far as my sig... It is just a sig man
How true it is...
That holds true until price is zero, then all you need is acceptable quality and performance. Also notice that I did not say FREE but FREEdom. There is a HUGE difference.
In the late 90's it was once said by venture capital types looking at putting money in to a software company... "Is Microsoft going to develop anything like this". The reason being that "IF" they did then, even if the product sucked, it would be cheaper and then it would drive this new company out of business. Well, now instead of Microsoft, it is open source.
You don't see many new closed source Web servers being developed do you? How about any new SQL databases?
You and I would agree that if there is good quality closed source programs, and they can be cost justified, some companies will use it. That software MUST add value to the company though, and there better not be a "good enough" open source solution. Granted there are many in I.T. today that just buy whatever Microsoft/Oracle/IBM puts out, but those types are quickly being replaced, or because of cost they are "looking" at other alternatives.
In my opinion it is not a good day to be a software development shop. Too bad for all those Indian programmers out there...
FREEdom
Would this be the same scientist that said that electricity flows from positive to negative charge, and stated that as fact? :-)
My main point still stands.
Good points, and being the one that started this thread, I would like to say that I do believe in God and evolution. However it kills me to see the so called scientist that say that evolution is fact. I wouldn't mind so much if they at least said "To the best of our knowledge now..." this is what we believe. Those same people said. :-) :-) .... You get the idea
1. Global cooling is real (1960's)
2. Global warming is real (1980's+)
3. The Atkins diet will not work
4. Ok, the Atkins diet will work
5. Eggs are bad for you... wait check that...
It is my belief that God created everything, now how he did it, I have no clue, but it did start with God. Granted this is all way off topic...
Ok, without a cell phone or pager how is he/she suppose to get notified? I have had companies try this stuff before and all it takes is some downtime and you will have a cell phone/pager.
Fire beatle?
:-)
Ape/people? I would imagine that we would find some race of people that didn't evolve as fast as the rest... and no you can't count your harry uncle Bill...
I am not saying evolution is wrong, but to say that it IS absolutely correct would also be inaccturate, you can show that some things have evolved, and that humans have evolved to a point, but we cannot say with absolute certainty that humans evolved from apes.
Also, as far as winning the 1 million; it has be repeatable. Man that one would have been tough even for the people who saw Christ after his death. Just because someone can't reproduce something time and time again doesn't make it wrong. Granted that isn't the point of the contest, but it is the spirit of the contest...
Now back to the topic.
The guy posted processors and hard drives that DON'T EXIST. He only takes pay-pal. Hmmmm you would have to have some real FAITH to buy from him
Ok, what he wants is to know is two things. .1 second as apposed to 2 seconds. A 100% increase in speed!!! :-)
1. That Microsoft Word will now open from cache in
2. That FPS game *.* will get an extra 5FPS in 640x480. Granted he will never play it at that level.
Yeah that just happened to me the other..... Oh wait, that never has happend!
You bring up excellent points, but there doesn't seem to be adware targeting Apple and Linux, also I think the core issue is with Microsoft using two things.
1. The registry
2. System Recover.
While I like the system recover feature of XP, the adware guys have found ways to incode their crap in it, and make removal a real pain. The registry, while I understand some of it's usefulness, is an issue. I have heard Microsoft is going to phase it out.
My point is that it might be true that Apple and Linux would have as many problems, they don't now. They probably won't in 5 years. I have also focused my discussion only on adware/virus/spyware stuff. Apple and Linux both have other MAJOR issues when compared to Microsoft Windows. The greatest is of course software and drivers...