Only part I gotta disagree about is the Gentoo part.
I use it, and while the initial install is a serious pain, once it's over it is EXTREMELY trivial to install software which is in the portage tree. And I have only run into two or three small apps that were not.
If I don't even have xf86 on my box, and I want the latest kde:
emerge kde
And it will figure out ALL dependancies, all of their dependancies, download all of them, compile and install all of them in the right order. Not only that, but with only the support for libs/etc i want, and with the exact CFLAGS i want. Takes a while, but it's that easy.
My point is that Gentoo's reputation for being difficult is unfounded at anything but install time.
I have used Linux and other *nixes for 6 years now.
I'm not trying to troll here, but for the short time I used Mandrake, it was THE buggiest, sloppiest, SLOWEST distro of Linux I have ever used. Hell, even the english was bad ("now are time of partition?" and similar).
Now, I'm not a big fan of Red Hat or any other 'commercial' distro, but consider others. If mandrake had been my first Linux attempt, I would have never come back.
The reason I've seen a few geek friends try out Linux then walk away disgusted (possibly forever) is hardware support.
A major part of this problem is 'hard'ware manufacturers making a lot of soft-hardware such as winmodems. I can live with that, the point at which I get annoyed is when PC manufacturers install them. Then someone is curious about linux, and then they are doing fine, up until modem config time. Talk about a big turn off.
And who to blame? NOT Linux or its developers. That's for damn sure. But the thought will enter their head "damn Linux has shitty hardware support". When the fact is really "damn $hardwaremfctr has shitty PC support".
Shitty. Just another example of the unfortunate drawbacks of cowtowing to MS.
Linux on the desktop sucks for one reason: fragmentation.
At first I thought you meant filesystem fragmentation, but I won't go there:)
Anyway. This 'fragmentation' you speak of is what we call 'choice'. Something most MS lackeys/lifers/confidants/spooks can't handle.
If I don't like KDE/Gnome, poof. Off my system it goes. This is choice.
Now, I *DO* have a problem with people writing apps that only work in one environment, say, KDE as an example. Then when I have switched off of KDE, I can't run said app beause it natively doesn't support X11.
Even with all that cruft, the one itel holding Linux back is the file system requirements. Every mainstream consumer desktop sold these days has a hard drive installed with a 100% NTFS partition. People don't want to screw with boot managers and people don't want to screw with repartitioning.
I don't see that as true, as I don't see the supposed other install time difficulties as an issue. Call me an elitist asshole bastard (please, I like it), if you can't figure out how to partition and set up a filesystem, stick with another OS. To use Linux or any other *nix you are going to have to actually learn instead of have your hand held like a bitch.
I don't give a SHIT if linux is like windows, or windows is like linux, or linux is like $blah. I am perfectly happy the way things are, ESPECIALLY with gentoo.
Thank God we can split off into various distros and get the feel we want. Which definately shouldn't be windows.
It reminds me of the WINE freaks. Wait a minute, you installed over or next to windows, to use windows programs? I can't be the only one to think "God, that's dumb, just stay in windows!".
Is this the arrogant / elitist attitude some people bitch about? Good. Because that attitude, whatever the label, is one of my favorite things about the *nix world: We are power users, we know it, and we FLAUNT it.
My first "PC" was a Gateway. I admired their high quality and worksmanship at the time.
Then they started making shit computers with proprietary hardware and other junk.
And now supporting DRM?
Too bad Gateway. You've just insured I'll never buy another one of your products. I do not deserve to be treated like a criminal before it has been proven I am one.
In fact it was reported on lkml on 18th July IIRC before 2.4.19 was released if that is any help to you. 2.4.19 and 2.4.20 are affected and I haven't tested previous releases. I was going to re-report it sometime, but Alan brought it to light just the other day.
In 2.4.20-pre5 an optimisation was made to the ext3 fsync function which can very easily cause file data corruption at unmount time. This was first reported by Nick Piggin on November 29th (one day after 2.4.20 was released, and three months after the bug was merged. Unfortunate timing)
This only affects filesystems which were mounted with the `data=journal' option. Or files which are operating under `chattr -j'. So most people are unaffected. The problem is not present in 2.5 kernels.
The symptoms are that any file data which was written within the thirty seconds prior to the unmount may not make it to disk. A workaround is to run `sync' before unmounting.
The optimisation was intended to avoid writing out and waiting on the inode's buffers when the subsequent commit would do that anyway. This optimisation was applied to both data=journal and data=ordered modes. But it is only valid for data=ordered mode.
In data=journal mode the data is left dirty in memory and the unmount will silently discard it.
The fix is to only apply the optimisation to inodes which are operating under data=ordered.
--- linux-akpm/fs/ext3/fsync.c~ext3-fsync-fix Sat Nov 30 23:37:33 2002 +++ linux-akpm-akpm/fs/ext3/fsync.c Sat Nov 30 23:39:30 2002 @@ -63,10 +63,12 @@ int ext3_sync_file(struct file * file, s
*/
ret = fsync_inode_buffers(inode);
-/* In writeback mode, we need to force out data buffers too. In - * the other modes, ext3_force_commit takes care of forcing out - * just the right data blocks. */ - if (test_opt(inode->i_sb, DATA_FLAGS) == EXT3_MOUNT_WRITEBACK_DATA) +/* + * If the inode is under ordered-data writeback it is not necessary to + * sync its data buffers here - commit will do that, with potentially + * better IO merging + */ + if (!ext3_should_order_data(inode))
ret |= fsync_inode_data_buffers(inode);
ext3_force_commit(inode->i_sb);
_ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
When it gets too mainstream, we'll get a lot (more) corporate involvement, and that is a major reason I left a certain OS behind years ago.
I'm guessing people are going to mention Nvidia and whatever those drivers are that came out the other day, but frankly I'm not impressed nor interested unless they are relased open souce. I know that idea isn't compatible with that industry, but, I won't be touching such things unless they are.
You know, I'm assuming this is done for The Children (tm).
Just more of the same old stuff: Let something/someone else do parenting duties. Anything but the actual parent, please!
Seriously, the internet isn't a good place for children to begin with. Supervise them yourself. If you can't, don't let them on, because clearly filtering software is garbage. And the internet is NO place for kids!
#2: Who the hell are the idiots providing service to him? I think it's time service providers who allow this are dragged through the same penalties as the spammer himself.
Heh. Why "violate the privacy" on one protocol (it's not a viloation on work time...)? When I could run tcpdump and maybe a custom app somewhere to ferret out anything?
Wee.
tcpdump + large fast disks + promiscuous NIC == all your bits are belong to me now.
Slashdot Mirror
Only part I gotta disagree about is the Gentoo part.
I use it, and while the initial install is a serious pain, once it's over it is EXTREMELY trivial to install software which is in the portage tree. And I have only run into two or three small apps that were not.
If I don't even have xf86 on my box, and I want the latest kde:
emerge kde
And it will figure out ALL dependancies, all of their dependancies, download all of them, compile and install all of them in the right order. Not only that, but with only the support for libs/etc i want, and with the exact CFLAGS i want. Takes a while, but it's that easy.
My point is that Gentoo's reputation for being difficult is unfounded at anything but install time.
Thankfully it's at least mono!
Consider ~24 kbps / 22KHz, after all its just voice. Us dial up users would really appreciate it, and so would that server.
Cheers.
An excellent and funny shizm at morality, both positive and negative.
Nice!
I have used Linux and other *nixes for 6 years now.
I'm not trying to troll here, but for the short time I used Mandrake, it was THE buggiest, sloppiest, SLOWEST distro of Linux I have ever used. Hell, even the english was bad ("now are time of partition?" and similar).
Now, I'm not a big fan of Red Hat or any other 'commercial' distro, but consider others. If mandrake had been my first Linux attempt, I would have never come back.
Good luck!
The reason I've seen a few geek friends try out Linux then walk away disgusted (possibly forever) is hardware support.
A major part of this problem is 'hard'ware manufacturers making a lot of soft-hardware such as winmodems. I can live with that, the point at which I get annoyed is when PC manufacturers install them. Then someone is curious about linux, and then they are doing fine, up until modem config time. Talk about a big turn off.
And who to blame? NOT Linux or its developers. That's for damn sure. But the thought will enter their head "damn Linux has shitty hardware support". When the fact is really "damn $hardwaremfctr has shitty PC support".
Shitty. Just another example of the unfortunate drawbacks of cowtowing to MS.
Someone mod this guy up a little from -1...
Installing an OS through another OS?
Yeppers. Makes about as much sense as installing one OS to run/emulate the apps of the one you just replaced.
Oops, did I just say the same thing? No, couldn't be...
Linux on the desktop sucks for one reason: fragmentation.
:)
At first I thought you meant filesystem fragmentation, but I won't go there
Anyway. This 'fragmentation' you speak of is what we call 'choice'. Something most MS lackeys/lifers/confidants/spooks can't handle.
If I don't like KDE/Gnome, poof. Off my system it goes. This is choice.
Now, I *DO* have a problem with people writing apps that only work in one environment, say, KDE as an example. Then when I have switched off of KDE, I can't run said app beause it natively doesn't support X11.
Even with all that cruft, the one itel holding Linux back is the file system requirements. Every mainstream consumer desktop sold these days has a hard drive installed with a 100% NTFS partition. People don't want to screw with boot managers and people don't want to screw with repartitioning.
I don't see that as true, as I don't see the supposed other install time difficulties as an issue. Call me an elitist asshole bastard (please, I like it), if you can't figure out how to partition and set up a filesystem, stick with another OS. To use Linux or any other *nix you are going to have to actually learn instead of have your hand held like a bitch.
This coming from someone who can't spell "you".
Righto, mate.
[this may be a double, browser crashed (dev software is fun!)]
No, thankfully you aren't the only one.
It may seem like we're all clumped into one smelly herd of shit eating cows, but the truth is we aren't.
Chew your cud, bitches.
No, you sure aren't, thankfully.
And I'm happy there are others like me.
It may appear everyone is in the same shitty smelling herd of cows, but the fact is we aren't.
I'm definately of this feeling:
:)
I don't give a SHIT if linux is like windows, or windows is like linux, or linux is like $blah. I am perfectly happy the way things are, ESPECIALLY with gentoo.
Thank God we can split off into various distros and get the feel we want. Which definately shouldn't be windows.
It reminds me of the WINE freaks. Wait a minute, you installed over or next to windows, to use windows programs? I can't be the only one to think "God, that's dumb, just stay in windows!".
Is this the arrogant / elitist attitude some people bitch about? Good. Because that attitude, whatever the label, is one of my favorite things about the *nix world: We are power users, we know it, and we FLAUNT it.
So fuck off
While I think this was read into too deeply, and they are NOT banning p2p (just slowing down?), I feel for their users.
They are basically being held guilty by default. What a crock of shit.
Enjoy. But if you don't like it, dump the service please, and stop supporting them.
(standard "but $X is only service in my area" whinings need not apply)
In mozilla at least, you can turn the javascript capability to change images when you mouse over off. I'm not sure if thats the same thing.
Still, I think you are an idiot if you run javascript or any of that other bullshit.
Pure text is all I give a damn about.
My first "PC" was a Gateway. I admired their high quality and worksmanship at the time.
Then they started making shit computers with proprietary hardware and other junk.
And now supporting DRM?
Too bad Gateway. You've just insured I'll never buy another one of your products. I do not deserve to be treated like a criminal before it has been proven I am one.
In fact, there is a reply to that on LKM:
In fact it was reported on lkml on 18th July IIRC before 2.4.19 was
released if that is any help to you. 2.4.19 and 2.4.20 are affected
and I haven't tested previous releases. I was going to re-report it
sometime, but Alan brought it to light just the other day.
Nick
In 2.4.20-pre5 an optimisation was made to the ext3 fsync function
/* In writeback mode, we need to force out data buffers too. In /*
e read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
which can very easily cause file data corruption at unmount time. This
was first reported by Nick Piggin on November 29th (one day after 2.4.20 was
released, and three months after the bug was merged. Unfortunate timing)
This only affects filesystems which were mounted with the `data=journal'
option. Or files which are operating under `chattr -j'. So most people
are unaffected. The problem is not present in 2.5 kernels.
The symptoms are that any file data which was written within the thirty
seconds prior to the unmount may not make it to disk. A workaround is
to run `sync' before unmounting.
The optimisation was intended to avoid writing out and waiting on the
inode's buffers when the subsequent commit would do that anyway. This
optimisation was applied to both data=journal and data=ordered modes.
But it is only valid for data=ordered mode.
In data=journal mode the data is left dirty in memory and the unmount
will silently discard it.
The fix is to only apply the optimisation to inodes which are operating
under data=ordered.
--- linux-akpm/fs/ext3/fsync.c~ext3-fsync-fix Sat Nov 30 23:37:33 2002
+++ linux-akpm-akpm/fs/ext3/fsync.c Sat Nov 30 23:39:30 2002
@@ -63,10 +63,12 @@ int ext3_sync_file(struct file * file, s
*/
ret = fsync_inode_buffers(inode);
-
- * the other modes, ext3_force_commit takes care of forcing out
- * just the right data blocks. */
- if (test_opt(inode->i_sb, DATA_FLAGS) == EXT3_MOUNT_WRITEBACK_DATA)
+
+ * If the inode is under ordered-data writeback it is not necessary to
+ * sync its data buffers here - commit will do that, with potentially
+ * better IO merging
+ */
+ if (!ext3_should_order_data(inode))
ret |= fsync_inode_data_buffers(inode);
ext3_force_commit(inode->i_sb);
_
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Pleas
This is a formal letter. Please cease and desist the use of the word "trademark", hereafter referred as "trademark".
I'd rather Linux not become too mainstream.
When it gets too mainstream, we'll get a lot (more) corporate involvement, and that is a major reason I left a certain OS behind years ago.
I'm guessing people are going to mention Nvidia and whatever those drivers are that came out the other day, but frankly I'm not impressed nor interested unless they are relased open souce. I know that idea isn't compatible with that industry, but, I won't be touching such things unless they are.
I went to that example website using mozilla 1.2b with all the good blocking options turned on, I don't see what's so special about the page.
Oh, and if some site is going to consider me a theif for not viewing their ads, then they just won't get visits from me anymore. Fine with me.
You know, I'm assuming this is done for The Children (tm).
Just more of the same old stuff: Let something/someone else do parenting duties. Anything but the actual parent, please!
Seriously, the internet isn't a good place for children to begin with. Supervise them yourself. If you can't, don't let them on, because clearly filtering software is garbage. And the internet is NO place for kids!
Quit being shitty parents.
#1: I live in this idiots area.
#2: Who the hell are the idiots providing service to him? I think it's time service providers who allow this are dragged through the same penalties as the spammer himself.
Fucking idiots.
Right.
Who?
Heh. Why "violate the privacy" on one protocol (it's not a viloation on work time...)? When I could run tcpdump and maybe a custom app somewhere to ferret out anything?
:)
Wee.
tcpdump + large fast disks + promiscuous NIC == all your bits are belong to me now.
Mental Image: O'Really: Snooping Email for Fun and Profit
Let's hope Senators Hollings and Berman are paying attention.
Yeah right. The only thing they are listening to is lobbyists.