"And the reason FF has plugins is precisely to keep the base code small and more manageable. Remember Opera's been out much longer than FF (something getting to a decade now?), so they've got the code base and methods in place to implement all those things inside the code, Firefox is what, less than a year or two in age? Give'em a break!"
Why? Firefox uses Gecko, which is several years old, and before that was Netscape. Actually, Opera 7 was a complete rewrite of the code, so it's quite young too! So in a way Opera 8.0 is "Opera 2.0". Firefox is kind of "Mozilla 2.0" or "Netscape 3.0".
"They still beat out opera in marketshare."
Yeah, because it's free, overhyped, and it came out as 1.0 with perfect timing: When everyone was warning everyone else about IE's security flaws. At that time, Opera was at 7.54, and old news. Now Opera came with 8.0, and it's gotten a lot of attention and converted quite a few Firefox users it seems.
"So please, spare me the "it's better because it's got everything builtin""
But it is. It doesn't require you to download untested third party software to get basic functionality like proper tabbed browsing and sessions/continuing where you left off.
"locking users with only a given set of builtin features is not a good idea"
There are plenty of ways to extend Opera, from panels and toolbars to User JS.
"I'm not trying to flamebait, but I seriously doubt that a company that's developped a product for a decade and got spooned by a new OSS product in less than 2 years in marketshare has so many things to its advantage."
Got spooned? Opera's revenues are higher than ever, and they have more users than ever. How is that "getting spooned"?
Also, your comment is illogical and irrational. By your logic, MSIE must be the best browser with lots of advantages since it has 90% market share...
"Opera 8 reached, what, a tad over a million downloads?"
In four days! Two million was reached shortly after. No more numbers have been announced since.
"That's less than a tenth of the firefox 1.0 downloads."
Then again, Firefox is hyped by FOSS zealots all over the world, and an OSS development flagship.
"I still don't understand why someone will choose pay for a browser."
Because they are happy to pay for quality, and because the alternatives aren't good enough for them.
"There are good free/opensource options. I think Firefox is the best choice. Why will I pay for a browser?"
Opera is not just a browser (although you can use it as one). It has lots of features built in that make browsing a lot smoother and a helluva lot more efficient. Opera saves me hours every day because it's so efficient. Time is money. $39 every year or two for something which saves me a fortune? I'd pay it any day.
And no, Firefox extensions are not an alternative. There are too many problems, especially when upgrading.
"- No XSLT support - CSS is not the only stylesheet language out there and FF in IE both support it."
Huh? You mean XSL? Sure, Opera does not support that. XSLT, on the other hand, belongs on the server, not the client. With mobile phones getting real web browser on them you can't rely on client-side XSLT.
"- No support for building arbitary DOM trees for in-browser XML generation (also supported by both FF and IE)."
Uh, you mean displaying the XML source? Get a source editor, man.
"Opera has some hellaciously cool ideas, but it's flat-out buggier than the Firefox project, which, while still imperfect, is much more responsive to bug reports and seems to exhibit an overall higher level of competence in its code."
Not in my experience. Opera is smaller, faster and more stable than Firefox, which indicates well written code in my book. Also, "much more responsive to bug reports"? What is that supposed to mean? Have you seen the huge number of fixes in each new release of Opera? Apparently not...
"DHTML in particular is practically unusable in Opera thanks to the poor quality of its Javascript interpreter."
"Add to that the ease with which non-trivial extensions (many of which duplicate Opera's hellaciously cool ideas) can be added to Firefox, and I see no reason whatsoever to use Opera in any but the most specialized environment"
Extensions? You mean the things that stop working when you upgrade, and break things? Why would I want to install loads of extensions to emulate Opera when Opera does it all better, and stuff continues to work when I upgrade?
Extensions are nice, but face it, they are not the same as native features that are tightly integrated into a better whole.
Why are you coding for IE anyway? Firefox is far from "almost 100% compatible with IE", and the best approach is to stick to cross browser code, not outdated IE specific nonsense.
"Opening the same 5 pages and messing about a bit gives 37MB for Firefox and 55MB for Opera. Entirely unscientific of course, but I was surprised that Firefox used so much memory; I expected it to be a bit leaner. Of course, this can probably fixed, and it's a matter of personal preference what is considered bloat. I'm a bit imressed that Opera has a mail-,rss/whatever-, newsreader, an IRC client and various small tidbit features in that 18MB difference"
Um, in case you didn't know, Opera is known to use far less memory than Firefox. And if you don't use mail/RSS/etc., those parts don't take up any resources at all.
Opera is available for mobile phones, remember. On the other hand, Minimo has to be stripped down to fit on mobile devices, and they aren't quite there yet. Opera's engine is tiny and fast, while Gecko really needs a lot of work to fit on mobiles.
I have no idea why Opera would use more, but Opera does have more efficient caching, and stores a lot of stuff in memory, for example for instant back (which Firefox is now trying to copy)...
"it's got ads embedded in it. adware. i didn't say spyware, although it's directed text ad optiion brings it close."
Actually, you can choose generic ads. In fact, you have to specifically select Google ads, as it is not enabled by default.
"and for what? a couple of features that are mostly or all available through firefox plugins for FREE. this crap sucks."
Available for free? Extensions are buggy and are tacked onto the UI in Firefox. When you upgrade they will often stop working for no reason at all. With Opera you get professional software which does not rely on untested third party code for functionality. It saves me lots of time, while Firefox would probably waste my time, due to Extension Hell.
"If you don't get a smooth ride, do you try to change the highway or your car?"
If someone stalks you and shoots off your tires every time you drive out from your own home, do you blame your own car? Do you blame people who are being discriminated against for the discrimination? Of course not. You kick the shooter's ass, and make sure people stop discriminating.
"Firefox has more features and more compatability and could care less why."
More features? Only if you can stand "Extension Hell", with broken extensions that cause instability, bugginess, and stop working when you upgrade...
Because some people are apparently willing to pay for quality software. Opera saves me lots of time and money with all its useful and time-saving features, so why shouldn't I pay?
"Mind you this is something the Opera comunity is against. The mantra there is change the world, not Opera, that is why I am now a Firefox user after Years of dedicated Opera Usage. Tilting at windmills gives you a sore back after a while."
Quit spreading lies already. "The community" is not a single entity with a single mind. Besides, you have ua.ini now, and it has always been possible to use a proxy to filter the useragent string. And User JS of course.
"But once you escape the comparison on pages that work, the stark reality is that many pages don't work."
Yeah, because sites discriminate against Opera and specifically send it broken stuff. Why should you care? I don't know, but don't go around spreading lies about Opera not being able to handle it. The fact is that people are specifically targeting Opera for some reason.
"Pre-empting those who say it is the fault of poor web coding and not Opera, in that some pages block or serve poor code to Opera."
"Yes that is correct, But it just doesn't matter! It doesn't matter where you point the finger, the result is an inferior browsing experience."
Sure it matters. Would you blame blacks in the US for being discriminated against? Of course not.
"I'll try Opera again (if ever) when they get better spoofing modes, better flash blocking."
You can edit a file called "ua.ini", which also downloads a list of sites from Opera's server. If you set "slashdot.org=4" in ua.ini, it will spoof as Mozilla 5.0 for Slashdot and hide "Opera" completely from the useragent string.
You even have User JavaScript in Opera if you like those kinds of things.
"it's not even so much that opera costs money (which is enough for me to ignore it), but the free version has ADWARE in it. adware. f*ck them! a trial version or something, but not adware. that's just sh*tty."
Opera doesn't have adware. It displays ads. It doesn't come bundled with any kind of third party adware at all, and it is certainly not spyware.
"I only use firefox on sites that don't support opera -- aka sites that opera doesn't support;)"
Actually, it's the other way around. In fact, many sites outright block Opera or specifically send it broken stuff. Don't believe me? Try it for yourself. Use Proxomitron to spoof as Firefox, and sites magically start working.
"Plus, every single 3rd party who has seen the Revolution has had pretty much the same thing to say about it -- this is going to be BIG. Industry changing big."
Such as? Got any links/news stories?
"And, I think ultimately, they're going to wait until E3 or TGS to unveil it, and it's going to be a huge amazing "Woahgod" that will get every gamer that sees it salivating, just like last year's E3 presentation."
You mean the Nintendo DS? Most people seemed to be wondering what on earth they would need a touch screen for...
Now, Opera did manage to do interesting things with the touch screen. In fact, a touch screen might have been nice for the next Nintendo home console as well.
""Don't you mean: "some moron released software with serious security holes in it, putting users at risk"?""
Your comment doesn't make sense. The holes were obviously not known when Firefox 1.0 was released. And show me a mainstream browser without a few known security holes in its past. If you are referring to Opera, Opera 8 has not had any holes yet, but it's only been out for a short period of time, and Opera 7 did have a few security flaws.
"These issues were announced on Monday, and now a security release is available. This shows how professional the Mozilla Foundation has become and how serious they take security issues. Good work!"
If I am not mistaken, they have been working on this for longer than that. Some moron announced the flaws while Mozilla were busy fixing them, thereby putting users at risk.
So I don't think they actually fixed it and got a release out in three days.
"1 & 2 simply lack all feeling - yes, nice to look here and there but nothing in substance for the viewer!"
Odd. I foud myself loving the way 1 and 2 were foreshadowing things, and they explained things like the Clone Wars, and so on.
1 and 2 are nice kids flicks on their own. But if you watch them in the context of episode 4-6, you may appreciate them and see beyond the lame acting at times, and other annoyances.
Oh, and you got to see Natalie Portman's hard nipples.
"It's amazing that he believes this stuff, and I honestly can't find the motive."
Your friend isn't the only one who is getting fed up with open-source zealots. I personally prefer to use the software that works best for me, regardless of whether it is FOSS or not.
But it seems that some FOSS supporters just can't resist the chance to spread FUD and lies. For example, here's the editor of MozillaNews, no less, accusing Opera of lying. When people point out his contradictions and errors he refuses to retract his false statements, but instead bans people or he removes their comments.
When I see crap like this, and it isn't all that uncommon, I get this sinking feeling that FOSS is attracting too many zealots. They are doing the community a disservice by pushing people away. People like your friend.
I don't like Microsoft or Bill Gates, but I continue to use Windows. That's what I'm used to, and even though I've installed lots of different Linux distributions, including Slackware back in the days before you had menus or a GUI to configure X, I find myself sticking with Windows. With 2000 and XP, Microsoft has produced stable operating systems, and they work well for me. Yet FOSS zealots continue their jokes about bluescreens, etc.
Now, anyone who has read my comments will see that I actually flame Microsoft shills on Slashdot. I'm not a zealot either way. I use Windows because I can't be bothered to switch over, and 2000/XP actually works well for me. I also play games every now and then, and Windows is the only realistic alternative for people like me. But I hope SCO is beaten to a pulp by IBM in the court room, and that Microsoft gets slapped around hard for their anti-competitive practices.
I also use Opera, and I'm getting annoyed with the FUD and lies spread by Firefox zealots. So yeah, I can understand where your friend is coming from.
"Andrew Orlowski wrote the best coverage I saw of the Microsoft monopoly trial, and pretty much changed my mind from one of "Well, if Microsoft wants to include a browser, then so be it, you can't stop progress" to "Hang the bastards!""
"Opera did not have it before, see my comment in this article."
However, Opera released SVG in an official, final version before Mozilla did. For all you know, Opera could have been supporting SVG in internal builds for years. Not that it really matters. This pointless bickering between Opera and Firefox zealots is getting boring.
"Yes, Opera seems to be ahead in features, and also unfixed bugs. It seems you can have developers focus on new fetaures, or have them focus on fixing bugs, but not both."
Sure you can. If you are wondering about "unfixed bugs", take a look at Bugzilla some time. All programs have bugs. Your attempt at cheap shots against Opera doesn't mean that what you are saying is any more true for Opera than for, say, Firefox.
It seems to me that Opera came with SVG support in a released version before Firefox. SVG Tiny or Full doesn't really matter. Opera is ahead of Mozilla by getting something out there.
Slashdot Mirror
Also, your comment is illogical and irrational. By your logic, MSIE must be the best browser with lots of advantages since it has 90% market share...
In four days! Two million was reached shortly after. No more numbers have been announced since. Then again, Firefox is hyped by FOSS zealots all over the world, and an OSS development flagship.1) Opera has never been just a browser, so this is true for all versions. In Opera 8.0, all those things are hidden by default anyway! So, moot point.
2) Even with all these things built in, Opera is still smaller and faster than Firefox.
And no, Firefox extensions are not an alternative. There are too many problems, especially when upgrading.
Extensions are nice, but face it, they are not the same as native features that are tightly integrated into a better whole.
Why are you coding for IE anyway? Firefox is far from "almost 100% compatible with IE", and the best approach is to stick to cross browser code, not outdated IE specific nonsense.
Opera is available for mobile phones, remember. On the other hand, Minimo has to be stripped down to fit on mobile devices, and they aren't quite there yet. Opera's engine is tiny and fast, while Gecko really needs a lot of work to fit on mobiles.
I have no idea why Opera would use more, but Opera does have more efficient caching, and stores a lot of stuff in memory, for example for instant back (which Firefox is now trying to copy)...
You even have User JavaScript in Opera if you like those kinds of things.
Get your facts straight.
You can read more about sites blocking Opera, too.
Now, Opera did manage to do interesting things with the touch screen. In fact, a touch screen might have been nice for the next Nintendo home console as well.
So I don't think they actually fixed it and got a release out in three days.
1 and 2 are nice kids flicks on their own. But if you watch them in the context of episode 4-6, you may appreciate them and see beyond the lame acting at times, and other annoyances.
Oh, and you got to see Natalie Portman's hard nipples.
If you need evidence, just look around. I, too, have noticed that there are certain outspoken Microsoft apologists posting on Slashdot.
But it seems that some FOSS supporters just can't resist the chance to spread FUD and lies. For example, here's the editor of MozillaNews, no less, accusing Opera of lying. When people point out his contradictions and errors he refuses to retract his false statements, but instead bans people or he removes their comments.
When I see crap like this, and it isn't all that uncommon, I get this sinking feeling that FOSS is attracting too many zealots. They are doing the community a disservice by pushing people away. People like your friend.
I don't like Microsoft or Bill Gates, but I continue to use Windows. That's what I'm used to, and even though I've installed lots of different Linux distributions, including Slackware back in the days before you had menus or a GUI to configure X, I find myself sticking with Windows. With 2000 and XP, Microsoft has produced stable operating systems, and they work well for me. Yet FOSS zealots continue their jokes about bluescreens, etc.
Now, anyone who has read my comments will see that I actually flame Microsoft shills on Slashdot. I'm not a zealot either way. I use Windows because I can't be bothered to switch over, and 2000/XP actually works well for me. I also play games every now and then, and Windows is the only realistic alternative for people like me. But I hope SCO is beaten to a pulp by IBM in the court room, and that Microsoft gets slapped around hard for their anti-competitive practices.
I also use Opera, and I'm getting annoyed with the FUD and lies spread by Firefox zealots. So yeah, I can understand where your friend is coming from.