Bloat? MSIE is probably many times the size of Mozilla.
But what about Opera? It is a 3 MB download and has a million times the features of MSIE. And it doesn't even have to be loaded with the operating system to prevent it from taking hours to start.
MSIE is a very basic browser. I am a very heavy surfer. I simply can't get things done fast enough with MSIE. I can't open links in background windows. I keep getting pestered by popups and attempts at installing spyware on my system. My Windows taskbar is cluttered by the twenty browser windows I would have open within the main Opera window usually.
Sorry, but MSIE is simply unusable as a proper web browser. It is too limiting. It feels like a prison. Keyboard shortcuts? I use them all the time. Mouse gestures? You bet. Notes? Yes sir! No need for Notepad anymore! FastForward? Yeah, no need to look for that damn "Next" link on pages anymore. I could continue for ages.
But the simple fact remains: MSIE is a very basic browser which can't really be used for serious surfing. "Everything" it does, it might do "cleanly", but it sure doesn't do much!
There is only one thing which might save it: It has a tiny size, yet is packed with features. Can you mention any other browser with the same amount of highly useful features and innovation in such a tiny package? No?
Not only that, but Opera is marketing itself as an alternative browser - trying to spread its name through the media using PR stunts like the Opera Bork version and so on. Not to mention the MSN farce which gave Opera a lot of media attention.
Not only that, but people can use the exact same browser engine for their PC and for their device.
Now, what are the options for Windows users? MSIE, Opera and Mozilla, right? And MSIE is something many are thrilled to get away from when they get used to mouse gestures, blocking popups and so on. They get to hear about this "Opera" thing which is apparently doing great stuff, is tiny, small, efficient, innovative, has lots of features to make browsing more of a pleasure...
Mozilla doesn't have the commercial incentive behind it to really make media pushes like Opera does. Don't get me wrong - the quality of the browser speaks for itself, but many may not even realize that it exists. And many still want to use products from companies that actually sell their product and are prepared to support it because they sell it and therefore have to support it. You can use Mozilla for free, but you aren't guaranteed the same support as when using a commercial product. Right?
But yeah, other browsers are ripping off Opera's features. The only thing is, while Opera gets smaller and gets more and better features, everyone else grows in size. Just look at Opera 7: Opera 7.0x was smaller than 6.05. Opera 7.10 was smaller than 7.03, and Opera 7.11 is smaller than 7.10 again. But 7.1x has even more useful features than 7.0x.
Opera is a commercial product. It has to be in the lead, or it will die.
As others have pointed out, Opera has Stop and Reload in the same button. And I find it a pain! I always change them back to separate buttons. And Opera does Snapback better, only it is called Rewind.
As for size, Opera 7 is 3 MB, and it includes a lot more innovative features than Safari, and not only that - it includes an e-mail client and newsreader in the package as well.
Safari is fast and easy to use, but innovative it is not.
BT will only "share" the file(s) you are currently downloading. It will only share the files that are "active" in the BT client. This is why you are encouraged to leave the BT window for a file open even after the download is complete - that way, others can still download from you. But the moment you click "OK" to close the transfer window once it is completed, you stop sharing and uploading to others.
So they can't get just any file on your PC. It has to be a file you have downloaded using a.torrent, and it has to be "open" in the BT client.
You can't leech because when you are downloading, you are uploading at the same time.
"UPDATE April 28, 2003: The author of The Inquirer article has now retracted it entirely, saying "The best advice I have, is to disregard the article entirely, until a more complete and competent analysis can be properly prepared, reviewed, and published." Check The Inquirer's statement for more, and thanks to Marketman for the heads-up."
Everyone knows that Opera is not spyware. Anyone can verify that as well, if they can be bothered to check the facts before throwing accusations around. They are not trying to hide the ad data at all, so a packet sniffer will show you what is going on.
Funny. Type ahead find was first introduced in Opera 6.0 as "inline find". Only after Opera introduced this did Mozilla get type ahead find.
Yeah, I know, I point this out a lot, but I don't think some Mozillaists are giving Opera the credit for the many features that were actually introduced in Opera first, and only later in Mozilla. Mouse gestures is another one.
If you are going to start asking "which features can't be found in Mozilla, so why not just use Mozilla instead", you have to ask yourself who comes up with these features in the first place, and who integrates them all into a small package without having to go through a lot of hassle to get it working. And yes, it is a hassle for my mother to install gestures in Mozilla.
Can we just agree that although many features are shared by Mozilla and Opera, they are still different browsers, especially since the features are often implemented slightly differently in the two browsers? Maybe you like the way Mozilla does it. Maybe that other guy likes the way Opera does it. What's the big deal? Just because someone points out Opera's strengths doesn't mean you have to try to shoot them down. Especially when Opera continues to get new features that other browsers "borrow". Opera is considered the innovator by many.
Oh, and you are underestimating the usefulness of notes. Not only can you make simple notes, but you can have them associated with web pages, like a kind of bookmarks, so when you double-click a note, it opens the page it was created from. You can also insert notes into forms and e-mails with ease. Ever tried doing that with Notepad?
I guess that in Opera's case it is a lot about integration.
Ah, ok. Well, no problem. The size of the Java download isn't Opera or Phoenix's problem anyway, but Sun. They are the bloatware authors. It is very nice that both Opera and Phoenix (and hopefully Firebird) are aiming for a smaller download size. This is rather uncommon in the software world.
I am still hoping that Firebird will do away with some bloat as well! At least both Opera and Firebird are tiny compared to MSIE.
Have they managed to make it smaller, and will it continue to shrink?
If you look at Opera, you will notice that 7.0 was smaller than 6.05, 7.1 was smaller than 7.0, and 7.11 is even smaller than 7.0 again. Opera is just a 3.2 MB download right now. Will Firebird ever get smaller from here?
Whatever suits your needs. Windows suits my needs perfectly, maybe because I'm used to it. Yeah, I use Linux as well. The only problem is that I am very busy these days, and I basically have little time to get rid of all my Windows habits and figure out exactly how to get Linux to do what I need it to do.
In regards to mIRC, I also find it to suit my needs perfectly. Again, it could be because it's what I'm used to. But then again, I have tried numerous IRC clients, especially for Linux. I've also tried pIRCh, Klient and some other clients I don't remember the name of. Then there's X-chat, Kvirc and so on for Linux.
I generally consider myself quite open-minded about software. If there is a clearly superior product out there for my needs, I will use it. I use The Bat! for my e-mail needs, Agent for Usenet (never quite got the hang of Xnews, and Netscape is terrible, as is Outlook Express).
As a browser, I use Mozilla, Phoenix and Opera. I used to be a die-hard Netscape 4 user, but then Opera won me over with its superior ease of use, convenience and power surfing. When Mozilla became a real alternative, I found myself using it too, because I can't quite decide what is better for me. Opera is small, fast, and very polished. Mozilla has all kinds of "bells and whistles", many of which are actually useful, and you can "plug in" new functionality. I'm not sure I would recommend anyone new to PCs to use Mozilla, though.
Anyway, the point of this is that I use mIRC because I haven't found anything to better serve my needs. And since I generally use "alternative" software, apart from the operating system itself, I'd say that mIRC isn't actually all that bad. Unless it doesn't serve your needs. But to categorically judge it as crappy software is more a sign of narrow-mindedness than a nose for quality.
But hey, if you know of any other IRC clients for Windows I should have a look at, let me know.
As Opera proves, people are actually willing to pay for a product they find to be better suited for their needs.
And Mozilla has never had better support than Opera for CSS! HTML, they are about the same. JavaScript, nope. W3C DOM was the only problem in Opera 6, but Opera 7 has proper DOM support.
Opera is available for OS/2 and BeOS as well, by the way. And Windows 3:)
But Mozilla doesn't actually completely trounce Opera in platform availability. Opera is available for quite a few platforms, which is a good thing, don't you agree?
" Does Opera have the ability to cure cancer and solve world hunger, a feature that we are all currently unaware of? No?"
Does Mozilla?
"Then kindly shut up about Opera. We get it, you like it. Now go away."
I see no reason to do so. The whole point of this discussion is that Slashdot is pushing Mozilla heavily, but often ignoring other alternative browsers that more than measures up to The Browser (Mozilla).
In the interest of freedom, support open standards. Support browsers that support open standards.
It's the quality of the product which matters, right? And if it is even founded on good things like open standards, what difference does it make if it is closed-source?
It is available for a number of open-source systems, and quality commercial software is important for Linux to grow on the desktop side.
First, your claim about better standards compliance in Mozilla is simply absurd. Opera has better CSS support than Mozilla, for instance.
Now, we could argue over this for the rest of our lives, but let's break it down: Opera is a commercial alternative mainly available for Windows users, and as such, has a much bigger potential user base. Mozilla users who are also OS zealots are a minority because they use a minority operating system. Who has the biggest potential user base again?
Then again, Opera is available for Windows, Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, Symbian OS, Mac, and so on. It is even available for QNX.
Your claim of a "far smaller subset of people" would be true if Opera operated primarily, or only, on open-source platforms, but it doesn't. Opera has its biggest users base on the Windows platform, and open-source zealots are a tiny little minority compared to the huge masses available as Windows users.
So your claims that there is a lot more interest in Mozilla than Opera in general, that Mozilla is more standards compliant, and is available for more platforms, can easily be argued against.
Right-click title bar, from one black background to another, localhost in localhost documents (duh) - nitpicking - doesn't affect browsing at all.
F8 works all the time for me.
You won't bother going into rambling because you know you'll be shot down, AC.
Opera seems to work right(TM) as well. Anyone can mention three problems in any program.
Anyway, if Mozilla "just works right", how come my mouse gestures don't work in Mozilla? Oh, I have to download even more addons to get what is offered in a smaller package by Opera? Hmm. Whatever happened to "just works right" eh?
Note that I am not bashing Mozilla here. I am simply using your misguided tactics to talk nonsense about other browsers.
People like you - "my browser is better than yours" people - pollute the browser world and cause problems. Only problems. Browsers seem to be a religion to you.
Who cares? If Opera can keep their business afloat by creating a competitive browser, more power to them. Opera doesn't have to overtake IE to be a viable alternative or a profitable business.
But anyway, Opera completely destroys IE in the embedded market. Even Microsoft is drooling over Opera and trying to get it for their embedded OS.
Slashdot Mirror
But what about Opera? It is a 3 MB download and has a million times the features of MSIE. And it doesn't even have to be loaded with the operating system to prevent it from taking hours to start.
MSIE is a very basic browser. I am a very heavy surfer. I simply can't get things done fast enough with MSIE. I can't open links in background windows. I keep getting pestered by popups and attempts at installing spyware on my system. My Windows taskbar is cluttered by the twenty browser windows I would have open within the main Opera window usually.
Sorry, but MSIE is simply unusable as a proper web browser. It is too limiting. It feels like a prison. Keyboard shortcuts? I use them all the time. Mouse gestures? You bet. Notes? Yes sir! No need for Notepad anymore! FastForward? Yeah, no need to look for that damn "Next" link on pages anymore. I could continue for ages.
But the simple fact remains: MSIE is a very basic browser which can't really be used for serious surfing. "Everything" it does, it might do "cleanly", but it sure doesn't do much!
Not only that, but Opera is marketing itself as an alternative browser - trying to spread its name through the media using PR stunts like the Opera Bork version and so on. Not to mention the MSN farce which gave Opera a lot of media attention.
Not only that, but people can use the exact same browser engine for their PC and for their device.
Now, what are the options for Windows users? MSIE, Opera and Mozilla, right? And MSIE is something many are thrilled to get away from when they get used to mouse gestures, blocking popups and so on. They get to hear about this "Opera" thing which is apparently doing great stuff, is tiny, small, efficient, innovative, has lots of features to make browsing more of a pleasure...
Mozilla doesn't have the commercial incentive behind it to really make media pushes like Opera does. Don't get me wrong - the quality of the browser speaks for itself, but many may not even realize that it exists. And many still want to use products from companies that actually sell their product and are prepared to support it because they sell it and therefore have to support it. You can use Mozilla for free, but you aren't guaranteed the same support as when using a commercial product. Right?
But yeah, other browsers are ripping off Opera's features. The only thing is, while Opera gets smaller and gets more and better features, everyone else grows in size. Just look at Opera 7: Opera 7.0x was smaller than 6.05. Opera 7.10 was smaller than 7.03, and Opera 7.11 is smaller than 7.10 again. But 7.1x has even more useful features than 7.0x.
Opera is a commercial product. It has to be in the lead, or it will die.
You detest the thought of these two combining forces? Yet you wouldn't consider Microsoft bundling AOL a combining of forces?
Maybe Safari has some of these features, but it sure as hell didn't introduce them to the browser world.
As for the interface in Mac 6, it's great, and the standards support is still excellent apart from very basic DOM support.
As for size, Opera 7 is 3 MB, and it includes a lot more innovative features than Safari, and not only that - it includes an e-mail client and newsreader in the package as well.
Safari is fast and easy to use, but innovative it is not.
So they can't get just any file on your PC. It has to be a file you have downloaded using a .torrent, and it has to be "open" in the BT client.
You can't leech because when you are downloading, you are uploading at the same time.
Cool. I am nearly wetting myself with excitement. Keep us updated!
Everyone knows that Opera is not spyware. Anyone can verify that as well, if they can be bothered to check the facts before throwing accusations around. They are not trying to hide the ad data at all, so a packet sniffer will show you what is going on.
Keep on trolling dude.
""We are continuing to work on the Mac version," said Tetzchner in an interview."
Yeah, I know, I point this out a lot, but I don't think some Mozillaists are giving Opera the credit for the many features that were actually introduced in Opera first, and only later in Mozilla. Mouse gestures is another one.
If you are going to start asking "which features can't be found in Mozilla, so why not just use Mozilla instead", you have to ask yourself who comes up with these features in the first place, and who integrates them all into a small package without having to go through a lot of hassle to get it working. And yes, it is a hassle for my mother to install gestures in Mozilla.
Can we just agree that although many features are shared by Mozilla and Opera, they are still different browsers, especially since the features are often implemented slightly differently in the two browsers? Maybe you like the way Mozilla does it. Maybe that other guy likes the way Opera does it. What's the big deal? Just because someone points out Opera's strengths doesn't mean you have to try to shoot them down. Especially when Opera continues to get new features that other browsers "borrow". Opera is considered the innovator by many.
Oh, and you are underestimating the usefulness of notes. Not only can you make simple notes, but you can have them associated with web pages, like a kind of bookmarks, so when you double-click a note, it opens the page it was created from. You can also insert notes into forms and e-mails with ease. Ever tried doing that with Notepad?
I guess that in Opera's case it is a lot about integration.
I am still hoping that Firebird will do away with some bloat as well! At least both Opera and Firebird are tiny compared to MSIE.
Opera has a Java console as well, but that's just where the Java output from applets end up.
So what's the deal here?
If you look at Opera, you will notice that 7.0 was smaller than 6.05, 7.1 was smaller than 7.0, and 7.11 is even smaller than 7.0 again. Opera is just a 3.2 MB download right now. Will Firebird ever get smaller from here?
In regards to mIRC, I also find it to suit my needs perfectly. Again, it could be because it's what I'm used to. But then again, I have tried numerous IRC clients, especially for Linux. I've also tried pIRCh, Klient and some other clients I don't remember the name of. Then there's X-chat, Kvirc and so on for Linux.
I generally consider myself quite open-minded about software. If there is a clearly superior product out there for my needs, I will use it. I use The Bat! for my e-mail needs, Agent for Usenet (never quite got the hang of Xnews, and Netscape is terrible, as is Outlook Express).
As a browser, I use Mozilla, Phoenix and Opera. I used to be a die-hard Netscape 4 user, but then Opera won me over with its superior ease of use, convenience and power surfing. When Mozilla became a real alternative, I found myself using it too, because I can't quite decide what is better for me. Opera is small, fast, and very polished. Mozilla has all kinds of "bells and whistles", many of which are actually useful, and you can "plug in" new functionality. I'm not sure I would recommend anyone new to PCs to use Mozilla, though.
Anyway, the point of this is that I use mIRC because I haven't found anything to better serve my needs. And since I generally use "alternative" software, apart from the operating system itself, I'd say that mIRC isn't actually all that bad. Unless it doesn't serve your needs. But to categorically judge it as crappy software is more a sign of narrow-mindedness than a nose for quality.
But hey, if you know of any other IRC clients for Windows I should have a look at, let me know.
And Mozilla has never had better support than Opera for CSS! HTML, they are about the same. JavaScript, nope. W3C DOM was the only problem in Opera 6, but Opera 7 has proper DOM support.
But Mozilla doesn't actually completely trounce Opera in platform availability. Opera is available for quite a few platforms, which is a good thing, don't you agree?
In the interest of freedom, support open standards. Support browsers that support open standards.
It's the quality of the product which matters, right? And if it is even founded on good things like open standards, what difference does it make if it is closed-source?
It is available for a number of open-source systems, and quality commercial software is important for Linux to grow on the desktop side.
Now, we could argue over this for the rest of our lives, but let's break it down: Opera is a commercial alternative mainly available for Windows users, and as such, has a much bigger potential user base. Mozilla users who are also OS zealots are a minority because they use a minority operating system. Who has the biggest potential user base again?
Then again, Opera is available for Windows, Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, Symbian OS, Mac, and so on. It is even available for QNX.
Your claim of a "far smaller subset of people" would be true if Opera operated primarily, or only, on open-source platforms, but it doesn't. Opera has its biggest users base on the Windows platform, and open-source zealots are a tiny little minority compared to the huge masses available as Windows users.
So your claims that there is a lot more interest in Mozilla than Opera in general, that Mozilla is more standards compliant, and is available for more platforms, can easily be argued against.
F8 works all the time for me.
You won't bother going into rambling because you know you'll be shot down, AC.
Opera seems to work right(TM) as well. Anyone can mention three problems in any program.
Anyway, if Mozilla "just works right", how come my mouse gestures don't work in Mozilla? Oh, I have to download even more addons to get what is offered in a smaller package by Opera? Hmm. Whatever happened to "just works right" eh?
Note that I am not bashing Mozilla here. I am simply using your misguided tactics to talk nonsense about other browsers.
People like you - "my browser is better than yours" people - pollute the browser world and cause problems. Only problems. Browsers seem to be a religion to you.
What a useless comment - no wonder you are posting as an AC. All software is full of bugs. Just have a look in Bugzilla for a list of Mozilla's bugs.
Opera is just another proprietary browser? Well, in that case, Mozilla is just another open-source browser. What is your point?
But anyway, Opera completely destroys IE in the embedded market. Even Microsoft is drooling over Opera and trying to get it for their embedded OS.