This makes me wonder if they'll go "oh, we unlocked the bootloaders but the carriers relocked them. Sorry."
All told, I'd be more impressed if HTC were pushing their kernel changes upstream, and making multiple builds of the video drivers available for other, non-Android OSes.
You're talking about SOFTWARE standardization. I'm talking about hardware, in the way that you can take an Ubuntu CD and boot it on damn near any PC with any motherboard and it'll work on the vast majority; if you take an Ubuntu build targeting armv7 (not thumb2) you will not be able to boot it on a system until a ton of porting work has been done to the kernel, with drivers that usually aren't upstream (and likely won't be accepted upstream due to all the android-isms) and require painful hacking to make them work on newer kernel revisions.
I said it was being attacked, not that it was successful.
But then we're stuck with the other feature loss: ARM platforms have so little standardization that, unlike PCs, moving to newer kernels or other OSes is nigh upon impossible. Never mind the utter disaster in the video driver space, where only your device vendor can provide compiled binaries for the OS on your device.
Look at the mobile space, being touted (rightly, IMO) as the next great growth space in computing. The fundamental advantage we've had in computing up to this point is actively being attacked with walled gardens.
But at some point "looks like things have been worse than we'd previously thought" starts to sound suspiciously like "looks like things have been worse than we'd previously admitted".
Then you run into the possibility that you are wandering into conspiracy theory land. They might not be admitting things, but at the same time they might have had no clue either.
The big losers here are the population of Japan who can't get a straight answer about the risk to their health. I cringe to think of the birth defects and illness this will cause.
Well, I haven't heard of any 3rd parties reporting anything unusual or notable regarding radioactive contamination above or beyond what has been reported already (and TEPCO can't exactly hide stuff that escapes the site.) Surely if it were so horrible then there would be accurate and reasonable reporting on the "true" radiation levels rather than what is reported, but I'm not seeing anything. And anecdotal rumors and information being spread via social networks (especially in a country like Japan that loves rumors) is suspect.
License does not specify when it has to be released.
The GPL does. It must be delivered to whoever the binaries are given to. Playing stupid weasel games to disenfranchise people is idiotic (well, unless you hate open source and like screwing your customers.)
Google has explicitly made decisions to minimize the presence of open source (rather, copyleft) software in the purview of device vendors that utilize Android. Only a handful of bits (kernel, bluez, couple others) are actually GPL'd; everything else is Apache and doesn't need to be released.
I can see some companies just assuming they don't need to do anything at all (or like various vendors, they sit around and don't release the source for weeks.) Google certainly doesn't encourage openness and cooperation from their partners, let alone from random companies that grab the sources from the AOSP.
I believe you are infinitely more upset than I am.
Nokia has turned Maemo/Meego into an also-ran and they now see more potential with WM7 (which I think is why everyone is making comments about MS, which you seem to be missing).
And I don't believe any of that is true. I doubt they "see more potential with W[P]7," more likely their move onto it was forced and determined the moment Elop left Microsoft for Nokia. Saying that "Microsoft somehow gets a flyer" implies something that I'm not stating in the slightest (since I don't give a shit for closed, user-controlling platforms.)
Many of the comments you have made also apply to Nokia and their attitude towards their community
Right, and this is about MeeGo. Not Nokia, not Maemo.
See, I'm angry too and I will not be fooled again
Indeed, you're so blindingly angry that you refuse to see the differences.
Both have closed firmware bits.
Devices have closed firmware bits. MeeGo does not.
But the thing is, with Android, developers can take the Android Open Source Project (AOSP) and keep the stock kernel from a device and change nearly everything else.
And you can do the same thing with MeeGo. But unlike MeeGo, on a whim Google can (and has) withhold the source for it.
Mer is proof of this.
That's nice. Mer was based off Maemo. This is MeeGo, and is already infinitely more open than Maemo was.
the reason why you are angry that people jumped from Maemo/Meego to Android: Google has created Android but continues to be heavily involved with it's development in kernel
The reason I support MeeGo (not maemo) more than Android is because unlike Android, no one source controls everything. It's also directed by the Linux Foundation, which has a fundamental need to communicate with the community, whereas Google hides everything away until release.
, Nokia created an open source operating system, but then depended VERY HEAVILY on the community to develop the user space apps for it and treat it as a testbed for their "real products". In Nokia's case, "real products" seems to be referring to WM7 now. You are aware of this, right? Not even Nokia believes Maemo/Meego is ready for mainstream consumption and they treat it as the red headed stepchild. This makes Android seem much better polished and acceptable for mainstream use.
Blah blah Nokia blah blah blah Maemo blah blah. Nokia is walking away from MeeGo because Microsoft is basically running the show, and Nokia has proven that they were never competent. I think you're just so angry towards Nokia that everything they've ever touched seems deserving of your hatred and spite. And I'm amazed that people are attacking me for supporting what is fundamentally a mobile version of a traditional Linux distro that pulls in from good, working open source projects. On Slashdot, even.
I guess my point is, the only reason you see a difference between Maemo/Meego and Android is because the former comes with busybox installed by default, uses apt-get (oh wait, now rpm!) and allows root after downloading straight from the repos. This does not make one more open than the other and if legit rooting is your thing, then their ARE Google developer phones you can buy.
It's much more than that, but since Nokia was involved at some point you're blinded and refuse to look.
And what's to stop Intel or Nokia from changing the license for future releases?
The GPL? Virtually all of the software is under GPLv2, barring a few non-critical bits.
And yet Android has more open source activity from the open source community than Meego.
Well yes, when you hype it up, throw money at it, and convince people that you are the open mobile OS (but only for mobile handset vendors and carriers) then you'll get attention.
Once again, they could easily switch the license for future versions and close it up on a whim.
Repeating a point made in ignorance doesn't make it true.
Absorbs effort from the outside? Really? It seems your issues are with Google and Android rather than furthering the movement of open source mobile operating systems.
I am concerned with the movement of open source mobile OSes, and Android is completely detached from everything that exists already. On top of that, it's held almost entirely by Google who have show no hesitation to close the source when they saw it fit.
Are you just a RMS militant or a Nokia fanboy that's upset because their Mobile OS effort has failed?
No, I like to have some independence from large corporations with vested interests that conflict with mine. I also like having open source things actually be open, rather than just "here you go, we are done with this."
Grow up, idiot
Mature, that one.
quit blaming Google or Android for your issues. It is odd, though, how Microsoft somehow gets a flyer in your weak arguments.
The patches have to be accepted upstream before they are allowed to be backported to the reference kernel. So while they may be patches to a kernel, the code has been pushed upstream and a newer kernel could be used.
The fact that things are getting pushed upstream at all is amazing. The dearth upstream activity from pretty much all Android vendors makes life hell for themselves and anyone interested in their hardware.
It's the cheering from the Google crowd, over the fact that they have managed to derail other non-Google, truly open projects in favor of theirs that they have shown willing to close completely on a whim (which they defend with pathetic, stupid arguments) while treating the open source community that has grown up around it as second class.
I've moved on and am now using Android and so should Intel.
Yeah, nothing quite as awesome as adopting a platform wholly controlled by another company.
Android might not be everything that Maemo was in those regards, but it is still most of those things that I care about.
Isolated, insular, and unhelpful to the greater open source community?
And when you look at alternatives like iOS and the BB OS, the differences between Maemo and Android seem absolutely tiny.
But on a moment's notice, everything but a handful of packages in Android could be closed up as tight as iOS whereas MeeGo cannot.
I see people virtually cheering for some terrible fate to befall MeeGo, in favor of an OS that absorbs effort from outside but benefits no one but Google and can be closed up tight on a whim (with actions to show they can and are willing to!)
An "official" version for the N900 was never promised. It has always been simply a developmental target, with a bit more effort put into the DE version.
I have a netbook with version 1.4. Have they decided to just call all versions 1.2 or just the core, especially since the netbook page no longer lists 1.4 updates?
There was never a 1.4 release. In fact, they only just released 1.2.
I really liked MeeGo's interface on my netbook but the styling is kind of childish.
All of MeeGo's user interfaces are merely references, intended to be augmented or replaced outright by 3rd parties that use the distribution.
The other downside is the lack of applications offered and 3rd party audio support.
A full distribution would need to adopt MeeGo as their base and build a full and proper repository for it (similar to Linux Mint basing itself off Ubuntu), same for 3rd party audio as MeeGo's kernel is absolutely stock upstream from kernel.org
Or instead of implementing a new language on Linux, how about doing something like a ruby or python shell, with a linux-specific library?
I mean, if you really want to hide all the information in an unbrowseable, non-human-readable object space instead of via a filesystem (where you can at least poke around manually,) there are ways to do so with existing technologies (since it's nothing new on Linux, but shiny new on Windows.)
This is what Wayland is for. Not some desktop environment specific rendering subsystem that will require drivers built custom for it. We'd run into the same disaster we have with Android, where no video drivers built for it work with anything else.
Slashdot Mirror
This makes me wonder if they'll go "oh, we unlocked the bootloaders but the carriers relocked them. Sorry."
All told, I'd be more impressed if HTC were pushing their kernel changes upstream, and making multiple builds of the video drivers available for other, non-Android OSes.
You're talking about SOFTWARE standardization. I'm talking about hardware, in the way that you can take an Ubuntu CD and boot it on damn near any PC with any motherboard and it'll work on the vast majority; if you take an Ubuntu build targeting armv7 (not thumb2) you will not be able to boot it on a system until a ton of porting work has been done to the kernel, with drivers that usually aren't upstream (and likely won't be accepted upstream due to all the android-isms) and require painful hacking to make them work on newer kernel revisions.
If that was true in any way, shape, form, or sexual position then Apple, Amazon, and a multitude of other legitimate services would have failed.
Lo and behold, they have not. Instead they have grown.
They don't matter. They haven't paid the requisite Campaign Contribution necessary for their opinions to be considered.
I said it was being attacked, not that it was successful.
But then we're stuck with the other feature loss: ARM platforms have so little standardization that, unlike PCs, moving to newer kernels or other OSes is nigh upon impossible. Never mind the utter disaster in the video driver space, where only your device vendor can provide compiled binaries for the OS on your device.
Look at the mobile space, being touted (rightly, IMO) as the next great growth space in computing. The fundamental advantage we've had in computing up to this point is actively being attacked with walled gardens.
There's DRM wrapped around everything else available from the store. Get back to me when that's not the case.
You have no proof that they're deliberately covering things up. So at best it is conjecture to be kept at arm's length, not believed wholeheartedly.
Then you run into the possibility that you are wandering into conspiracy theory land. They might not be admitting things, but at the same time they might have had no clue either.
Well, I haven't heard of any 3rd parties reporting anything unusual or notable regarding radioactive contamination above or beyond what has been reported already (and TEPCO can't exactly hide stuff that escapes the site.) Surely if it were so horrible then there would be accurate and reasonable reporting on the "true" radiation levels rather than what is reported, but I'm not seeing anything. And anecdotal rumors and information being spread via social networks (especially in a country like Japan that loves rumors) is suspect.
Is it downplaying, or simply a lack of insight as to what's going on inside there?
The GPL does. It must be delivered to whoever the binaries are given to. Playing stupid weasel games to disenfranchise people is idiotic (well, unless you hate open source and like screwing your customers.)
The rest of your post is ridiculous.
Google has explicitly made decisions to minimize the presence of open source (rather, copyleft) software in the purview of device vendors that utilize Android. Only a handful of bits (kernel, bluez, couple others) are actually GPL'd; everything else is Apache and doesn't need to be released.
I can see some companies just assuming they don't need to do anything at all (or like various vendors, they sit around and don't release the source for weeks.) Google certainly doesn't encourage openness and cooperation from their partners, let alone from random companies that grab the sources from the AOSP.
Nice rant.
I believe you are infinitely more upset than I am.
And I don't believe any of that is true. I doubt they "see more potential with W[P]7," more likely their move onto it was forced and determined the moment Elop left Microsoft for Nokia. Saying that "Microsoft somehow gets a flyer" implies something that I'm not stating in the slightest (since I don't give a shit for closed, user-controlling platforms.)
Right, and this is about MeeGo. Not Nokia, not Maemo.
Indeed, you're so blindingly angry that you refuse to see the differences.
Devices have closed firmware bits. MeeGo does not.
And you can do the same thing with MeeGo. But unlike MeeGo, on a whim Google can (and has) withhold the source for it.
That's nice. Mer was based off Maemo. This is MeeGo, and is already infinitely more open than Maemo was.
The reason I support MeeGo (not maemo) more than Android is because unlike Android, no one source controls everything. It's also directed by the Linux Foundation, which has a fundamental need to communicate with the community, whereas Google hides everything away until release.
Blah blah Nokia blah blah blah Maemo blah blah. Nokia is walking away from MeeGo because Microsoft is basically running the show, and Nokia has proven that they were never competent. I think you're just so angry towards Nokia that everything they've ever touched seems deserving of your hatred and spite. And I'm amazed that people are attacking me for supporting what is fundamentally a mobile version of a traditional Linux distro that pulls in from good, working open source projects. On Slashdot, even.
It's much more than that, but since Nokia was involved at some point you're blinded and refuse to look.
It is Harmattan. It was already well under way before MeeGo came into existence.
The GPL? Virtually all of the software is under GPLv2, barring a few non-critical bits.
Well yes, when you hype it up, throw money at it, and convince people that you are the open mobile OS (but only for mobile handset vendors and carriers) then you'll get attention.
Repeating a point made in ignorance doesn't make it true.
I am concerned with the movement of open source mobile OSes, and Android is completely detached from everything that exists already. On top of that, it's held almost entirely by Google who have show no hesitation to close the source when they saw it fit.
But hey, rant with more bad information more.
No, I like to have some independence from large corporations with vested interests that conflict with mine. I also like having open source things actually be open, rather than just "here you go, we are done with this."
Mature, that one.
How does Microsoft come into this, again?
The patches have to be accepted upstream before they are allowed to be backported to the reference kernel. So while they may be patches to a kernel, the code has been pushed upstream and a newer kernel could be used.
The fact that things are getting pushed upstream at all is amazing. The dearth upstream activity from pretty much all Android vendors makes life hell for themselves and anyone interested in their hardware.
It's the cheering from the Google crowd, over the fact that they have managed to derail other non-Google, truly open projects in favor of theirs that they have shown willing to close completely on a whim (which they defend with pathetic, stupid arguments) while treating the open source community that has grown up around it as second class.
At this point I'm convinced that you're illiterate.
Yeah, nothing quite as awesome as adopting a platform wholly controlled by another company.
Isolated, insular, and unhelpful to the greater open source community?
But on a moment's notice, everything but a handful of packages in Android could be closed up as tight as iOS whereas MeeGo cannot.
I see people virtually cheering for some terrible fate to befall MeeGo, in favor of an OS that absorbs effort from outside but benefits no one but Google and can be closed up tight on a whim (with actions to show they can and are willing to!)
An "official" version for the N900 was never promised. It has always been simply a developmental target, with a bit more effort put into the DE version.
There was never a 1.4 release. In fact, they only just released 1.2.
All of MeeGo's user interfaces are merely references, intended to be augmented or replaced outright by 3rd parties that use the distribution.
A full distribution would need to adopt MeeGo as their base and build a full and proper repository for it (similar to Linux Mint basing itself off Ubuntu), same for 3rd party audio as MeeGo's kernel is absolutely stock upstream from kernel.org
Or instead of implementing a new language on Linux, how about doing something like a ruby or python shell, with a linux-specific library?
I mean, if you really want to hide all the information in an unbrowseable, non-human-readable object space instead of via a filesystem (where you can at least poke around manually,) there are ways to do so with existing technologies (since it's nothing new on Linux, but shiny new on Windows.)
This is what Wayland is for. Not some desktop environment specific rendering subsystem that will require drivers built custom for it. We'd run into the same disaster we have with Android, where no video drivers built for it work with anything else.