If i understand this right the problem was that SAP was a PITA to use on Linux, not that linux in itself was hard to install and use. Try setting up for example Hula Mailserver on a linux machine, ten minutes and you have a full fledged mail server with enterprise workload handling and most features to boot, even webmail. I install various apps on Windows also and i can tell that most of them is a real pain to setup compared to the open source counterparts. Documentation on theese systems is a joke. The problem here lies solely on the vendors and not on the makers of the respective OS, be it *nix or Windows.
Most installs on Windows i do is easy on the surface but almost always demands a lot of tinkering to work properly. Installing can take a couple of hours but man, getting that system to work takes weeks. I think this guy isnt a techie and has confused SAP with linux. What he should have done is to throw SAP out the Window, not use Windows to run SAP.
Before the solution to all problems on windows was antivirus. Then, when spyware came you needed antispyware. Now, you also need a rootkit detector (wich can be fooled pretty easy). The only way to be sure to find a rootkit is to read the harddisk from a trusted system. Couple this with Vista wich is alledged to have encrypted disk because of DRM and you have a heck of a hard time cleaning your computer.
The problem is that DRM only solves a small part of all things malicious, not everything. It doesnt defend against bad applications and all programming errors.
It depends on what goal you have. It seems the goal here is a man on mars. Not what that man can do on mars. There is no question that you could do the same things with a robot much cheaper and safer. The robots sent to this date has been very limited and small and size has set a limit as to what they can do and where they can go.
Personally i think its a PR thing, they want to be on mars before China.
Since when did Slashdot become a pressrelease institution? I see more and more non news like this. Where are the gritty details and the interesting news? The only thing in Xbox that interets me is the DRM part wich never get mentioned.
I would not put restore and recovery in the hands of the company not doing enough Q&A in the first place. I value my personal data more than my applications and theres no substitute for quality. Its also very common to have sensetive data onsite and i have a hard time imagine someone willfully putting that kind of information in the hand of Microsoft without proper guaranties (wich to my knowledge Microsoft has always sworn themselves free of). The need for onsite backup will be just as big as before. Maybe you could put the system itself up on the net but i fail to see what real benefit it would bring. Its also pretty common to have a bandwith bottleneck when doing backups over the lan and doing it over the internet sure wont help someone having a tough time doing it over night.
If you look at how the customers have treated the idea of renting software it seems like its not the customers who want it at all. Forcing somthing down the customers throat isnt very smart in the long run. I also fail to see any benefits whatsoever for the customer. Even the price is higher today. Theres simply nothing to gain for the end user.
I was under the impression that this was all about applications ontop of Windows, not just the OS itself. If you take another look at all your friends computers and do a fast audit you should find a pretty large sum of applications not properly licensed. Remember to count all those shareware applications which is long over the 30 day trial period.
That not many pay for their software should be pretty obvious. Have you ever seen a home pc with only bought and paid apps on it? Heck even at my work i had a hard time getting trough to my peers getting them to understand that Winzip is not free and that you cant just continue to use it after the trial period of 30 days, on 3-400 pc's! I work as a network admin and fix a lot of computers in my spare time. When i have to reinstall a computer and asks for the install discs to all the applications it had all i usually get is a blank face and -"what, i just downloaded it from (whatever)". Dont forget that this scheeme isnt in the pipes yet. The effect i was talking about will come when people suddenly has to pay for all the apps they didnt pay for before. For someone who paid zero before its pretty steep to suddenly fork out hundreds of dollars just for the office applications.
As for games on the PC its not that hot anymore. If you think the biggest reason people play on the PC is its perfect quality, its hassle free installs and the great price think again. The ability to copy games is driving gaming on the PC. Once that's gone there's just no reason not to just buy a PS2, an Xbox or a Gamecube. Who in their right mind spends ours on end trying to get a game working, wasnt it meant to be a relaxation?
OSS is not the same as Linux. You can actually find much OSS software for Windows. Even if Linux was to die tomorrow it wouldnt affect the OSS software stacks that much since most of it is highly portable.
Read after me:
Linux is Open Source Software Open Source Software is not Linux.
"The OSS zealots would not be the type to buy software anyhow, so it's not possible to lose sales to them."
Actually theres where youre wrong. I do buy a lot of software. Probably more than most people. Ill gladly pay for anything i can calculate is worth the money. Comercial software has its place and always will. Not just in all forms and places and to whatever price.
I remember the piracy being pretty darned rampant with MS Windows 95/98/Me/2000/XP too. And lets not forget that very many of the preinstalled XP Home gets swiftly exchanged for XP PRO. Piracy of applications on MS Windows isnt a small thing either. Take your own Windows boxes (if you own any) and calculate how much software you have there, including all the shareware you have used long beyond its trial period. I suspect that for most people that sum isnt something they are willing to part from. Windows may be free but all the applications is not and DRM may just make people painfully aware of that.
The sole reason prices dont drive people towards Linux/*BSD/Whatever New is that pretty much no home user really pays for their software and thus dont compare the two on price.
The harder it gets to pirate Windows and all the various apps on it the more the value of OSS shines through. Today not many pay for their software in general. Even Windows XP Home is swapped out fairly quickly for a pirated version of XP Pro in many cases.
When you make a headcount and calculate what the total sum of all the installed software on a normal computer is OSS has a pretty great advantage that not many appriciates since they dont pay for their comercial software.
Its a very neat desktop distro. Since its debian based you can always find debs for whatever obscure app you want, and get it working in seconds. I have it on my laptop and my desktop and i have only good experiences from it. For a server i use RH because of SELinux.
I have (no really, i have) sometimes found myself wanting to search only legally shared material. I have no doubt that very many people would love the idea too. The funny thing in my mind is that all the free gems out on the p2p networks drowns in comercial shit today. Get the white trash out and you have a pretty nice delivery platform for independant artists, demos and free content in general. I think the RIAA is shooting itself in the foot here.
The pirating wont stop for a second but those of us who detest todays comercial music will have a blast sifting through all the newly uncovered material. This also falls into place crating an alternative media universe free of DRM content. Who wants DRM as a customer?
So when the US gathers nuclear, virulent and other weapons of mass destruction its just A ok? Not because its any different than if anyone else does it but because the US is "good" and the saviour of the world? I dont buy that for a second.
I can honestly say i fully understand why so many people hate the US with a passion. Its the essence of lies and deception. The sad thing is that not all have understood that the US isnt a democracy anymore and that the US people have nothing to do with current state of affairs. They are just puppets like the citizens in any two party bananarepublic. Whomever you vote for its still the same people and beliefs. People need to learn to separete the people from the administration. Hate the government in the US but leave the people alone.
I didnt imagine the US and NASA have it in them to be humble enough to admit it has failed to produce a usable space vehicle. The NASA had really good tech but abandoned it for the cooler looking but useless space shuttle. Looking back the space shuttle must be the stupidest decision ever made in human space exploration history. Hopefully this meens no more dead americans and perhaps NASA can shape up and make rockets instead of flying PR machines.
The problem isnt in Firefox itself but rather in the script used to launch firefox from other applications. It demands launching a command from another application under your control going through bash. You cant be subjected to this by browsing around on the net for example. It demands user intervention to function. While i admit its a flaw its in no way as critical as some purports it to be. A similar flaw in Internet Explorer gets a minor threat rating.
There really needs to be some standard for rating security holes.
I mean, if this is rated very critical what the heck do you call a remote exploit? Very,very,very critical or what? Secunia, rated 7/5?
There seems to be a FUD campaign against Firefox. Why the heck would Symantec care about Firefox when they havent once to my knowledge critiziced Internet Explorer even when it had a critical patch coming out pretty much every day.
I can see from my own experiences that Microsoft has a hard time convincing their userbase to upgrade. Most users use a small percentage of Office 97 and really dont have any reason to upgrade. Office 12 really needs a big bunch of benefits to be worth upgrading to. Retraining of the staff isnt one of them according to Microsofts own studies (read their comparisons of Linux vs. Windows on the Get The Facts site). A new interface is a bigger hurdle to climb than say a migration to open office wich mimics MS Office in many ways. The lack of support for an open document format seems like a minus compared to Open Office.
If they dont get the offices to upgrade their biggest cash cow is in jeopardy and that fat revenue is vital for them. Without Windows and Office revenues Microsoft is toast.
You are an experienced Windows user. Thats not the same as an experienced computer user. An experienced computer user has been around long enough to have used most systems on the market and that includes unix.
I can understand that some people find linux hard to use but im pretty confident that its mostly because they are used to do things "the MS Windows way". Surely linux could mimic Microsoft Windows down to the last pixel but that isnt really what most linux users want.
According to my perception of things many MS Windows users would like Linux to be a completely free Windows. Well, thats not really the goal of most Open Source. If all you want is a free MS Windows then Linux cant help you. If you on the other hand is sick and tired of doing things the Microsoft way linux is a kicker. It allows you to tailor your computer to any possible whim and gives you complete freedom to do whatever you like.
Ill repeat, Linux aint no free MS Windows clone and will never ever be. If you take your time and get to know it you will be rewarded tenfolded. In the hands of a knowledged computer user it can be a vicious tool.
This is on the unmanaged desktop ofcourse. On a companys managed desktop i can easily make it much more usable than any current MS offering.
Novell has positioned itself to deliver a complete solution from the desktop to the server.
If they finalize the Novell Linux Client AND make it run on most dists there are many companies who could switch to OES on the back and Linux at most of the desktops in a heartbeat. I assume there are a bunch of people like me out there who want OES but also want a linux client. Ncpfs doesnt quite cut it, neither do pam_ldap.
I really hope they get their thumbs out, to much waiting and many customers will move to other solutions.
They could have just used Carmack and gotten a faster slicker 3D enabled interface with a tenth of the requirements. I cant really fathom what they have done internally in Windows to make it that slow.
If Linux continues to get smaller and faster it will have a big advantage compared to Vista on the home computer desktop. I think this is a big chance for linux to gain some traction on the desktop of many users albeit not all or most of them. Make linux a bit easier for the newb and it should fly like an eagle.
The hardest parts now is to install the various codecs and media players needed to watch movies. Everything else is pretty easy nowadays since most device drivers Just Works.
"You want to work for Microsoft? Would you like to be part of a really big company?
Make a significant contribution for Linux and well hire you!"
Honestly i dont think MS really can hire away the talent that works on Linux and all the various bits and pieces surrounding it. Maybe they snag away some poeple out of employment but i cant see that as a bad thing for the community. The signal is clearly that linux people is sought after, even by Microsoft.
Is the road to wealth really to just watch sience fiction movies and read SF books and patent every gadget that looks cool? Even if you dont have the faintest idea about how to produce it you can get a patent and you can reap the benefits as soon as someone manages to make a product out of the idea, even if the idea is a century old. Even worse is that if you take an old idea and stick it onto another old idea you magically have a patent, even if you just combined two things like a catalouge and a ordering form in the back pages. I dont see how you could patent that. Still, in the online world you could patent something jsut like that.
I really honestly cant see how a patent system like this can help the US in the long run. The incentive to produce is substantially lowered and replaced with people who just litigate and patents obvious ideas. Theese people dont contribute a dime to the community since all the money they touch is fictional for a fictional service in a highly abstract market.
I love this feature and i think its one of the most important ones in this release. Since clueless users dont update its important its done for them.
This applies to all the Linux dists who aims at the desktop. A knowledgeable user will know howto turn autoupdating off but the chance of a newb to know howto update or even know he has to update is much smaller. Ofcourse autoupdating demands a bit more testing to be absolutely sure that an update doesnt hoose the system but thats not bad is it?
I really hope all the dists will start autoupdating before Linux gains to much traction and gets a bad rep because of users that dont know they should update.
Im currently trying to manage large amounts of different desktops on a linux terminal server. In for ex. icewm its a piece of cake but in Gnome i just hit the wall over and over. Tailoring gnome isnt an easy feat for a mortal admin.
Sabayon seems like a step in the right direction. I love to be able to login to a template desktop, alter wathever i want and be able to distribute that desktop to choosen users.
If anyone knows a good way of managing different desktops in Gnome please let med know. Im also curious about how i just alter the default desktop in a sane manner.
I consider worms a small problem compared to if a competitor gets their hands on all my data and info. Script kiddies is the last thing i worry about. A big benefit to the end user would be a self updating system that was fairly secure from the start. Frankly Windows isnt any of those.
I have seen few Windows XP machines that really updates themselves automatically. On almost every time i have to turn it on manually and then again a bit later on.
Slashdot Mirror
If i understand this right the problem was that SAP was a PITA to use on Linux, not that linux in itself was hard to install and use. Try setting up for example Hula Mailserver on a linux machine, ten minutes and you have a full fledged mail server with enterprise workload handling and most features to boot, even webmail. I install various apps on Windows also and i can tell that most of them is a real pain to setup compared to the open source counterparts. Documentation on theese systems is a joke. The problem here lies solely on the vendors and not on the makers of the respective OS, be it *nix or Windows.
Most installs on Windows i do is easy on the surface but almost always demands a lot of tinkering to work properly. Installing can take a couple of hours but man, getting that system to work takes weeks. I think this guy isnt a techie and has confused SAP with linux. What he should have done is to throw SAP out the Window, not use Windows to run SAP.
Before the solution to all problems on windows was antivirus. Then, when spyware came you needed antispyware. Now, you also need a rootkit detector (wich can be fooled pretty easy). The only way to be sure to find a rootkit is to read the harddisk from a trusted system. Couple this with Vista wich is alledged to have encrypted disk because of DRM and you have a heck of a hard time cleaning your computer.
The problem is that DRM only solves a small part of all things malicious, not everything. It doesnt defend against bad applications and all programming errors.
It depends on what goal you have. It seems the goal here is a man on mars. Not what that man can do on mars. There is no question that you could do the same things with a robot much cheaper and safer. The robots sent to this date has been very limited and small and size has set a limit as to what they can do and where they can go.
Personally i think its a PR thing, they want to be on mars before China.
Well i guess copying is the sincerest form of flattering. Microsoft seems to be flattering everything in sight theese days.
They sure are a flirty company.
Since when did Slashdot become a pressrelease institution? I see more and more non news like this. Where are the gritty details and the interesting news? The only thing in Xbox that interets me is the DRM part wich never get mentioned.
I would not put restore and recovery in the hands of the company not doing enough Q&A in the first place. I value my personal data more than my applications and theres no substitute for quality. Its also very common to have sensetive data onsite and i have a hard time imagine someone willfully putting that kind of information in the hand of Microsoft without proper guaranties (wich to my knowledge Microsoft has always sworn themselves free of). The need for onsite backup will be just as big as before. Maybe you could put the system itself up on the net but i fail to see what real benefit it would bring. Its also pretty common to have a bandwith bottleneck when doing backups over the lan and doing it over the internet sure wont help someone having a tough time doing it over night.
If you look at how the customers have treated the idea of renting software it seems like its not the customers who want it at all. Forcing somthing down the customers throat isnt very smart in the long run. I also fail to see any benefits whatsoever for the customer. Even the price is higher today. Theres simply nothing to gain for the end user.
I was under the impression that this was all about applications ontop of Windows, not just the OS itself. If you take another look at all your friends computers and do a fast audit you should find a pretty large sum of applications not properly licensed. Remember to count all those shareware applications which is long over the 30 day trial period.
That not many pay for their software should be pretty obvious. Have you ever seen a home pc with only bought and paid apps on it? Heck even at my work i had a hard time getting trough to my peers getting them to understand that Winzip is not free and that you cant just continue to use it after the trial period of 30 days, on 3-400 pc's! I work as a network admin and fix a lot of computers in my spare time. When i have to reinstall a computer and asks for the install discs to all the applications it had all i usually get is a blank face and -"what, i just downloaded it from (whatever)". Dont forget that this scheeme isnt in the pipes yet. The effect i was talking about will come when people suddenly has to pay for all the apps they didnt pay for before. For someone who paid zero before its pretty steep to suddenly fork out hundreds of dollars just for the office applications.
As for games on the PC its not that hot anymore. If you think the biggest reason people play on the PC is its perfect quality, its hassle free installs and the great price think again. The ability to copy games is driving gaming on the PC. Once that's gone there's just no reason not to just buy a PS2, an Xbox or a Gamecube. Who in their right mind spends ours on end trying to get a game working, wasnt it meant to be a relaxation?
OSS is not the same as Linux. You can actually find much OSS software for Windows. Even if Linux was to die tomorrow it wouldnt affect the OSS software stacks that much since most of it is highly portable.
Read after me:
Linux is Open Source Software
Open Source Software is not Linux.
"The OSS zealots would not be the type to buy software anyhow, so it's not possible to lose sales to them."
Actually theres where youre wrong. I do buy a lot of software. Probably more than most people. Ill gladly pay for anything i can calculate is worth the money. Comercial software has its place and always will. Not just in all forms and places and to whatever price.
I remember the piracy being pretty darned rampant with MS Windows 95/98/Me/2000/XP too. And lets not forget that very many of the preinstalled XP Home gets swiftly exchanged for XP PRO. Piracy of applications on MS Windows isnt a small thing either. Take your own Windows boxes (if you own any) and calculate how much software you have there, including all the shareware you have used long beyond its trial period. I suspect that for most people that sum isnt something they are willing to part from. Windows may be free but all the applications is not and DRM may just make people painfully aware of that.
The sole reason prices dont drive people towards Linux/*BSD/Whatever New is that pretty much no home user really pays for their software and thus dont compare the two on price.
The harder it gets to pirate Windows and all the various apps on it the more the value of OSS shines through. Today not many pay for their software in general. Even Windows XP Home is swapped out fairly quickly for a pirated version of XP Pro in many cases.
When you make a headcount and calculate what the total sum of all the installed software on a normal computer is OSS has a pretty great advantage that not many appriciates since they dont pay for their comercial software.
Its a very neat desktop distro. Since its debian based you can always find debs for whatever obscure app you want, and get it working in seconds. I have it on my laptop and my desktop and i have only good experiences from it. For a server i use RH because of SELinux.
I have (no really, i have) sometimes found myself wanting to search only legally shared material. I have no doubt that very many people would love the idea too. The funny thing in my mind is that all the free gems out on the p2p networks drowns in comercial shit today. Get the white trash out and you have a pretty nice delivery platform for independant artists, demos and free content in general. I think the RIAA is shooting itself in the foot here.
The pirating wont stop for a second but those of us who detest todays comercial music will have a blast sifting through all the newly uncovered material. This also falls into place crating an alternative media universe free of DRM content. Who wants DRM as a customer?
*smile!*
So when the US gathers nuclear, virulent and other weapons of mass destruction its just A ok? Not because its any different than if anyone else does it but because the US is "good" and the saviour of the world? I dont buy that for a second.
I can honestly say i fully understand why so many people hate the US with a passion. Its the essence of lies and deception. The sad thing is that not all have understood that the US isnt a democracy anymore and that the US people have nothing to do with current state of affairs. They are just puppets like the citizens in any two party bananarepublic. Whomever you vote for its still the same people and beliefs. People need to learn to separete the people from the administration. Hate the government in the US but leave the people alone.
I didnt imagine the US and NASA have it in them to be humble enough to admit it has failed to produce a usable space vehicle. The NASA had really good tech but abandoned it for the cooler looking but useless space shuttle. Looking back the space shuttle must be the stupidest decision ever made in human space exploration history. Hopefully this meens no more dead americans and perhaps NASA can shape up and make rockets instead of flying PR machines.
The problem isnt in Firefox itself but rather in the script used to launch firefox from other applications. It demands launching a command from another application under your control going through bash. You cant be subjected to this by browsing around on the net for example. It demands user intervention to function. While i admit its a flaw its in no way as critical as some purports it to be. A similar flaw in Internet Explorer gets a minor threat rating.
There really needs to be some standard for rating security holes.
I mean, if this is rated very critical what the heck do you call a remote exploit? Very,very,very critical or what? Secunia, rated 7/5?
There seems to be a FUD campaign against Firefox. Why the heck would Symantec care about Firefox when they havent once to my knowledge critiziced Internet Explorer even when it had a critical patch coming out pretty much every day.
Since many distros is based on RedHat and Debian they too will inherit the base system and be very similar to LSB of not entierly.
I can see from my own experiences that Microsoft has a hard time convincing their userbase to upgrade. Most users use a small percentage of Office 97 and really dont have any reason to upgrade. Office 12 really needs a big bunch of benefits to be worth upgrading to. Retraining of the staff isnt one of them according to Microsofts own studies (read their comparisons of Linux vs. Windows on the Get The Facts site). A new interface is a bigger hurdle to climb than say a migration to open office wich mimics MS Office in many ways. The lack of support for an open document format seems like a minus compared to Open Office.
If they dont get the offices to upgrade their biggest cash cow is in jeopardy and that fat revenue is vital for them. Without Windows and Office revenues Microsoft is toast.
You are an experienced Windows user. Thats not the same as an experienced computer user. An experienced computer user has been around long enough to have used most systems on the market and that includes unix.
I can understand that some people find linux hard to use but im pretty confident that its mostly because they are used to do things "the MS Windows way". Surely linux could mimic Microsoft Windows down to the last pixel but that isnt really what most linux users want.
According to my perception of things many MS Windows users would like Linux to be a completely free Windows. Well, thats not really the goal of most Open Source. If all you want is a free MS Windows then Linux cant help you. If you on the other hand is sick and tired of doing things the Microsoft way linux is a kicker. It allows you to tailor your computer to any possible whim and gives you complete freedom to do whatever you like.
Ill repeat, Linux aint no free MS Windows clone and will never ever be. If you take your time and get to know it you will be rewarded tenfolded. In the hands of a knowledged computer user it can be a vicious tool.
This is on the unmanaged desktop ofcourse. On a companys managed desktop i can easily make it much more usable than any current MS offering.
Novell has positioned itself to deliver a complete solution from the desktop to the server.
If they finalize the Novell Linux Client AND make it run on most dists there are many companies who could switch to OES on the back and Linux at most of the desktops in a heartbeat. I assume there are a bunch of people like me out there who want OES but also want a linux client. Ncpfs doesnt quite cut it, neither do pam_ldap.
I really hope they get their thumbs out, to much waiting and many customers will move to other solutions.
They could have just used Carmack and gotten a faster slicker 3D enabled interface with a tenth of the requirements. I cant really fathom what they have done internally in Windows to make it that slow.
If Linux continues to get smaller and faster it will have a big advantage compared to Vista on the home computer desktop. I think this is a big chance for linux to gain some traction on the desktop of many users albeit not all or most of them. Make linux a bit easier for the newb and it should fly like an eagle.
The hardest parts now is to install the various codecs and media players needed to watch movies. Everything else is pretty easy nowadays since most device drivers Just Works.
"You want to work for Microsoft?
Would you like to be part of a really big company?
Make a significant contribution for Linux and well hire you!"
Honestly i dont think MS really can hire away the talent that works on Linux and all the various bits and pieces surrounding it. Maybe they snag away some poeple out of employment but i cant see that as a bad thing for the community. The signal is clearly that linux people is sought after, even by Microsoft.
Is the road to wealth really to just watch sience fiction movies and read SF books and patent every gadget that looks cool? Even if you dont have the faintest idea about how to produce it you can get a patent and you can reap the benefits as soon as someone manages to make a product out of the idea, even if the idea is a century old. Even worse is that if you take an old idea and stick it onto another old idea you magically have a patent, even if you just combined two things like a catalouge and a ordering form in the back pages. I dont see how you could patent that. Still, in the online world you could patent something jsut like that.
I really honestly cant see how a patent system like this can help the US in the long run. The incentive to produce is substantially lowered and replaced with people who just litigate and patents obvious ideas. Theese people dont contribute a dime to the community since all the money they touch is fictional for a fictional service in a highly abstract market.
I love this feature and i think its one of the most important ones in this release. Since clueless users dont update its important its done for them.
This applies to all the Linux dists who aims at the desktop. A knowledgeable user will know howto turn autoupdating off but the chance of a newb to know howto update or even know he has to update is much smaller. Ofcourse autoupdating demands a bit more testing to be absolutely sure that an update doesnt hoose the system but thats not bad is it?
I really hope all the dists will start autoupdating before Linux gains to much traction and gets a bad rep because of users that dont know they should update.
Im currently trying to manage large amounts of different desktops on a linux terminal server. In for ex. icewm its a piece of cake but in Gnome i just hit the wall over and over. Tailoring gnome isnt an easy feat for a mortal admin.
Sabayon seems like a step in the right direction. I love to be able to login to a template desktop, alter wathever i want and be able to distribute that desktop to choosen users.
If anyone knows a good way of managing different desktops in Gnome please let med know. Im also curious about how i just alter the default desktop in a sane manner.
I consider worms a small problem compared to if a competitor gets their hands on all my data and info. Script kiddies is the last thing i worry about. A big benefit to the end user would be a self updating system that was fairly secure from the start. Frankly Windows isnt any of those.
I have seen few Windows XP machines that really updates themselves automatically. On almost every time i have to turn it on manually and then again a bit later on.