Yes and that is called End of life for the software, which according to Microsoft is not to occur for some time yet. (Different people have pointed to different dates. Nevertheless all of these dates are in the future).
Requiring a company to support the software they wrote until the time they have specified as its EOL is not wrong.
Considering this is another project just like Phoenix it is unfair and inaccurate to call it a fork. Phoenix, et al. are not forks of Mozilla neither is this.
And all of that has abolutely nothing to do with the majoirity of programming jobs in the US being affected by Open Source software. OS Software is great for replacing proprietary applications at almost no cost but it will not replace all of the in house applications that most of the corporate world uses today. That software is written in house by staff programmers and contractors. Those jobs will not be replaced just because there is a free wordprocessor or operating system out there. They are apples and oranges in the programming world.
Then you would be quite wrong. Considering that most programming done in the United States is for specialized in-house applications, Open Source won't touch that for a long time, if ever.
I would suggest describing a language like Perl in some other form than "open source language". While it is true you can view the source of the program you write in Perl, writing in Perl does not automatically make your program open source.
How does this rate a +5 interesting? Clearly you do not do your homework or bother to research. A simple google search for Microsoft Passport returns (near the top no less) instances of their security being bypassed:
Forcing one GUI on everyone using Linux is exactly what Linux is against. Linux is about choice. You get to choose which GUI you want to use. If Linux forced you to use one GUI, one email client, one web browser, how would that be any different than Windows or Apple?
Choice is what reigns in Linux. Forcing one GUI on anyone will help nothing.
I would agree with you that Sun should use the GUI talent to write GUIs. However, it should not surprise anyone that this is not the case.
There are some products out there, written in Swing, where the GUI runs quite nicely. I will agree with you that they are few and far between. What annoys me is when people post on these boards that Swing itself is slow, etc. when the reality is that it is the developers.
I agree that there should be some magical way to show these developers how to write good Swing code but realistically that is not going to happen. So unless Sun et al is going to educate all of these wanna be GUI developers or rewrite Swing so that anyone with a point and click IDE can design a speedy gui, we are stuck in the middle.
If Sun can't write performant Java GUIs, I guess people should start searching for a solution rather than for excuses
Do you think that everyone in Sun can write good java code? What I stated in my post was not an excuse but rather a fact. My team is developing a very large Swing GUI and we are having very little "sluggishness" that everyone claims that Swing is plagued with. However, every time we find a slow spot it is invariably because of someone taking a short-cut in the code that caused the problem.
It is possible to write efficient and speedy GUIs in Swing. Just because it cannot be done with drag and drop does not mean it cannot be done.
But no- one, and I mean *NO-ONE*, will ever again attempt to use Java as a serious tool for a serious GUI application
you might want to check on google and discover how much of the world considers you wrong in this respect.
Java can create "serious GUI applications", the problem lies in the fact that most java developers are incapable of writing "serious GUI applications".
C# is a [bad] clone of Java. The java language has hardly become stagnate and is constantly evolving to include what exists. Perhaps you should put down your MS propaganda manual and try looking around on the net for what is available.
It was the best thing around 8 years ago
This one made me nearly fall out of my chair! When java was released (just under 8 years ago). It was very slow and clunky. Java now is the best thing around, imo.
Perhaps you should go back to school or read a book and learn what reflection is and does. I find it to be an extremely powerful and flexible API for writing dynamic code easier and faster than any other language I have yet to run across. I have written things in java utilizing reflection that would have made me cry if I had to write them in C/C++.
Lets give this new MS language a couple of years and see how well it survives. Maybe by then the world will actually have examples of what.net is rather than just PR hype
Java is extremely cross platform, both on the server side and the client side. The client server application that my team is working on uses a Swing based client and runs great on every platform we have thrown against it! This includes Windows, Mac, Linux, Unix.
Swing GUIs are as slow or as fast as you make them. As others have said, if you write crap code, then of course it is going to be slow! You can do the same thing in any other language. However, if you truly understand the Swing API and the Java language, you can write GUIs that are just as responsive as native applications.
This was not always the case, but it is reality now. Unfortunately, it is going to take a few more years before the bulk of the Java programmers out there learn how to properly code a Swing GUI.
Typical knee jerk response. Try thinking about this. Linux was capable of utilizing the hyperthreaded processor as if it was two processors using the SMP code. However, the kernel was updated to improve upon the scheduling of threads on VPCUs vs. PCPUs.
My statement was that I doubt any MS product does this. I did not say that MS did not recognize the hyperthreaded CPU.
Can you show anywhere that someone has tested XP to show that it handles this scheduling correctly?
How is this informative?? Lets clear up the FUD a bit and see how informative he is.
SMP support has existed since NT 4.
Linux has also had SMP support for ages. The changes that Linux made recently to the kernel was specifically to handle virtual cpus vs. physical cpus. I am willing to bet the farm that NO current MS product tells the difference.
So what you meant to say was "once again Linux plays catchup to MicroSoft, but only about a year or so later this time, and not 5-10.
Sounds more like MS will be catching up (if they even bother) to Linux instead of the other way around. Sorry to feed the trolls but with a +5 informative, it had to be done. Some moderators need to be shot.
I have yet to find a situation where Java runs faster on Windows than on Linux. Both in GUI and in server applications, Java far outperforms on Linux than on Windows.
If you are not fond of java (translated from your "not fun of java"), then chances are you are doing things wrong or simply do not understand what you are doing with it.
The application I am working on must run on everything thrown against it (HP-UX, Solaris, Windows, Linux so far), and windows is the WORST performer so far. In my opinion it has more to do with Windows memory management, etc. than anything Java has control over.
And exactly what facts would he need to get straight?
If you are going to flame him for incorrect facts, at least back up your statements with some facts. Or do you just like being an anonymous coward with no support yourself?
I have actually tested the code in a number of "high end" IDEs including Visual Age for Java, JBuilder, NetBeans, Visual J++ (Long time ago), etc. and found that they all create HORRIBLE code from their visual designers.
Having said that I have also seen people code by hand even worse than those IDE could create! However, a good Java Developer(tm) who understands the MVC inside and out, and can thread non thread safe Swing apps can build a Swing GUI that will run and respond very well.
Not to brag but I have done this, I have seen others that can write a good GUI. It is doable. However, most of the "Java Developers" I have seen out there could not even tell you want MVC means let alone code to the principal. Those are the GUIs you see that are slow bloated and horrible. It is unfortunate that there are a large number of people who are writing Java GUIs but really have no clue in the world what they are doing. Personally I blame IDEs for a large part of this. They simply make it way too easy for anyone to pass themselves off as a developer.
There is a fundamental difference between a code generator (widget builder) and a compiler. Having said that, there are also bad compilers. However, compilers have matured, as you mentioned, for a very long time now. Perhaps in 10 years I will recind my comment about code generators in Java.
however for nowany code generation in Java is bad and is usually the reason for slowness in a modern Java application.
I find most IDEs (and most who use them) abstract you away from the code too much. Using a visual editor (widget machine) to do GUI code is just a Bad Idea.
Every swing GUI that I have seen which runs smoothly was written by hand. IMHO all code including and especially GUI code should be written by hand.
Hmmm I still have some applets left over from the 1.0.2 days.... hmmmm still run just fine in my 1.4.1 enviroment. Full backwards compatibility.
If swing is using 50 megs of ram to display a popup window I suggest you look at the programmer and not the language. Perhaps you should stop using that IDE and actually LOOK at the code to see what is going on?
I have developed quite a few client side java applications and I can tell you that the speed of Java on the client is 100% dependent on the skill of the programmer.
You can do a full install of SuSE from their website. You just cannot download the ISO images like other distro do. I just installed SuSE 8.0 on one of my machhines the other day. Simple and easy.
Slashdot Mirror
Requiring a company to support the software they wrote until the time they have specified as its EOL is not wrong.
Considering this is another project just like Phoenix it is unfair and inaccurate to call it a fork. Phoenix, et al. are not forks of Mozilla neither is this.
And all of that has abolutely nothing to do with the majoirity of programming jobs in the US being affected by Open Source software. OS Software is great for replacing proprietary applications at almost no cost but it will not replace all of the in house applications that most of the corporate world uses today. That software is written in house by staff programmers and contractors. Those jobs will not be replaced just because there is a free wordprocessor or operating system out there. They are apples and oranges in the programming world.
Then you would be quite wrong. Considering that most programming done in the United States is for specialized in-house applications, Open Source won't touch that for a long time, if ever.
I would suggest describing a language like Perl in some other form than "open source language". While it is true you can view the source of the program you write in Perl, writing in Perl does not automatically make your program open source.
Perhaps calling it an uncompiled language?
Microsoft Passport to Trouble
Stealing MS Passport's Wallet
I could go on all day and show you where Microsoft is anything but trustworthy.
The moderators who bumped this post up should be shot. Microsoft is going for the least trustworthy company in history award.
Choice is what reigns in Linux. Forcing one GUI on anyone will help nothing.
There are some products out there, written in Swing, where the GUI runs quite nicely. I will agree with you that they are few and far between. What annoys me is when people post on these boards that Swing itself is slow, etc. when the reality is that it is the developers.
I agree that there should be some magical way to show these developers how to write good Swing code but realistically that is not going to happen. So unless Sun et al is going to educate all of these wanna be GUI developers or rewrite Swing so that anyone with a point and click IDE can design a speedy gui, we are stuck in the middle.
Do you think that everyone in Sun can write good java code? What I stated in my post was not an excuse but rather a fact. My team is developing a very large Swing GUI and we are having very little "sluggishness" that everyone claims that Swing is plagued with. However, every time we find a slow spot it is invariably because of someone taking a short-cut in the code that caused the problem.
It is possible to write efficient and speedy GUIs in Swing. Just because it cannot be done with drag and drop does not mean it cannot be done.
you might want to check on google and discover how much of the world considers you wrong in this respect.
Java can create "serious GUI applications", the problem lies in the fact that most java developers are incapable of writing "serious GUI applications".
C# is a [bad] clone of Java. The java language has hardly become stagnate and is constantly evolving to include what exists. Perhaps you should put down your MS propaganda manual and try looking around on the net for what is available.
It was the best thing around 8 years ago
This one made me nearly fall out of my chair! When java was released (just under 8 years ago). It was very slow and clunky. Java now is the best thing around, imo.
Perhaps you should go back to school or read a book and learn what reflection is and does. I find it to be an extremely powerful and flexible API for writing dynamic code easier and faster than any other language I have yet to run across. I have written things in java utilizing reflection that would have made me cry if I had to write them in C/C++.
Lets give this new MS language a couple of years and see how well it survives. Maybe by then the world will actually have examples of what .net is rather than just PR hype
Swing GUIs are as slow or as fast as you make them. As others have said, if you write crap code, then of course it is going to be slow! You can do the same thing in any other language. However, if you truly understand the Swing API and the Java language, you can write GUIs that are just as responsive as native applications.
This was not always the case, but it is reality now. Unfortunately, it is going to take a few more years before the bulk of the Java programmers out there learn how to properly code a Swing GUI.
My statement was that I doubt any MS product does this. I did not say that MS did not recognize the hyperthreaded CPU.
Can you show anywhere that someone has tested XP to show that it handles this scheduling correctly?
SMP support has existed since NT 4.
Linux has also had SMP support for ages. The changes that Linux made recently to the kernel was specifically to handle virtual cpus vs. physical cpus. I am willing to bet the farm that NO current MS product tells the difference.
So what you meant to say was "once again Linux plays catchup to MicroSoft, but only about a year or so later this time, and not 5-10.
Sounds more like MS will be catching up (if they even bother) to Linux instead of the other way around. Sorry to feed the trolls but with a +5 informative, it had to be done. Some moderators need to be shot.
If you are not fond of java (translated from your "not fun of java"), then chances are you are doing things wrong or simply do not understand what you are doing with it.
The application I am working on must run on everything thrown against it (HP-UX, Solaris, Windows, Linux so far), and windows is the WORST performer so far. In my opinion it has more to do with Windows memory management, etc. than anything Java has control over.
Very very sweet addition to a laptop.
That is like saying there are no jobs available for "windows developers". VB is a language, Linux is a Kernel/OS.
Try looking for developers for all of the Languages that run on Linux, you may be surprised by what you find.
If you are going to flame him for incorrect facts, at least back up your statements with some facts. Or do you just like being an anonymous coward with no support yourself?
I have actually tested the code in a number of "high end" IDEs including Visual Age for Java, JBuilder, NetBeans, Visual J++ (Long time ago), etc. and found that they all create HORRIBLE code from their visual designers.
Having said that I have also seen people code by hand even worse than those IDE could create! However, a good Java Developer(tm) who understands the MVC inside and out, and can thread non thread safe Swing apps can build a Swing GUI that will run and respond very well.
Not to brag but I have done this, I have seen others that can write a good GUI. It is doable. However, most of the "Java Developers" I have seen out there could not even tell you want MVC means let alone code to the principal. Those are the GUIs you see that are slow bloated and horrible. It is unfortunate that there are a large number of people who are writing Java GUIs but really have no clue in the world what they are doing. Personally I blame IDEs for a large part of this. They simply make it way too easy for anyone to pass themselves off as a developer.
however for now any code generation in Java is bad and is usually the reason for slowness in a modern Java application.
I use it, works just fine. Try coding it instead of drag and drop perhaps? Which IDE do you use?
I find most IDEs (and most who use them) abstract you away from the code too much. Using a visual editor (widget machine) to do GUI code is just a Bad Idea.
Every swing GUI that I have seen which runs smoothly was written by hand. IMHO all code including and especially GUI code should be written by hand.
If swing is using 50 megs of ram to display a popup window I suggest you look at the programmer and not the language. Perhaps you should stop using that IDE and actually LOOK at the code to see what is going on?
I have developed quite a few client side java applications and I can tell you that the speed of Java on the client is 100% dependent on the skill of the programmer.
Apple is selling hardware that is half the speed at 2 to 4 times the price of Intel hardware
Or are you measuring just clock speed like some others? Compare the Max notebooks to x86 notebooks and show your x2/x4 price hike.
Making wild claims like this help noone.