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Windows 2003 Going Gold
chill writes "According to CNet's News.com, 'Microsoft is expected to announce on Friday that Windows Server 2003 has completed testing and has been certified final, or gold, code.' With 35% of their server customers still using NT 4 -- the NT 4 that is so broke it can't be fixed -- Microsoft is hoping for quick adoption."
Too bad it'll be SP 1 or 2 in 2004 that'll leave it usable and somewhat secure. I actually prefer 2000. The XP interface and how it handles some things really left me cold.
I was led to this place, a place I can't understand. A place that demands my belief just as strongly as my disbelie
I for one think microsoft is right in thinking the NT 4 crowd is perfect for quick adoption.
All Microsoft has to do to force people to purchase upgrades is include a fatal flaw in each of their released systems. Then, with their new found buy of a VM company, they can offer a new system (at a price) that is secure, but runs all the programs from the old system.
You are then left with a choice, stay with an unsecure system which will never be patched (unless independent sources patch the flaw,) or buy a new system at an inflated price, that will do exactly the same thing your old system did, but not have the fatal security flaw.
Really, it's quite an ingenious business plan, because they aren't forcing you to do anything, just making sure they get paid for all these patches they've been releasing for free.
I would not be surprised to start seeing them stop patching all their older OSes, and seeing their new OSes all include legacy VM support so you can run the old programs without the security bugs.
Then you are left to a choice, buy more software from Microsoft (so you can run securely), use OS software with respective VMs (and take the risk that all of your software won't work), or keep using your unsecure OS.
Unfortunately, for most businesses only one of those 3 options is viable.
~ kjrose
This may sound really dumb but what does "going gold" mean? I hear it all the time when some piece of software or other is about to be released, but what does it mean?
Is there really who will run a critical application on W2003 before sp1?
Oh, wait, you mean *legal* copies? Nevermind.
Condemnant quod non intellegunt.
Microsoft is talking about this Palladium and now this? Hey! It cant be! Microsoft is taking over Software market, amazing.
How final is this, if it won't really be "final" until years later when the worst security bugs are fixed?
Instead of incurring the massive expense of replacing the equipment that currently runs NT 4 plus the licences of running Windows 2003, perhaps they should just move over to Linux. Maybe there is scope for an advertising campaign from Red Hat or others that says as much.
Better yet, perhaps someone should offer an NT 'migration kit' which attempts to replicate the NT services and settings in Linux.
Wow, good timing! I just wonder how many network admins will get ticked off that MS didn't fix NT so they're going to try out something else for a change (ie, enter Linux). Most companies aren't willing to jump to a new server OS for mission critical applications, which is most likely WHY anyone would still have NT running. Very few people are comfortable running version 1.0 server software, which is essentially what this is.
I think it is a bit irresponsible for them to NOT support NT, and I just don't by the "too complex" architecture bit. Honestly, I think they don't want to fix it- it's time to move customers to the next version. They could come out with a really heavy service pack, but that probably doesn't make much business sense. It's likely they have a good grip on how many people are running NT still-- perhaps losing those customers are probably cheaper than doing another service pack? In addition, the only companies that REALLY need to be concerned are those that can't block the appropriate port with a firewall since that is a temporary fix.
I think Windows is going towards another element: Palladium
Hehehehehe
Now that Palladium is going to lock me into Windows, I'm switching to OpenBSD with some GUI on it.
And I've been a windows guy forever...
When even guys like me leave, that's it.
Mind you, this'll take some years yet...
It's Christmas everyday with BitTorrent.
Windows RMS!
As if our own smelly, hairy, super-coder wasn't enough.
"the NT 4 that is so broke it can't be fixed -- Microsoft is hoping for quick adoption." I don't think they will ever release anything that isn't broke, so, "hopefully someone that knows something will adopt us" is probably what Billy is thinking.
Mine means my own, but how can this be if I owe for it?
I see a lot of sarcasm (not only here) on the subject of NT4 not being fixed. Let's not forget the OS was introduced in 96. I'm not sure about the rest of you but I'm not running a linux-distro that's 7 years old.
/(bb|[^b]{2})/
Today, Microsoft has released a new patch for their Windows.net 2003 Server line, fixing major security flaws.
For whom, exactly, would this be a "Security enhancement"?
I had a good chuckle while reading it, let me tell you!
this time, its not Windows which can't be fixed, its the license. Nobody is going to upgrade to WS 2003 unless they have to. WinNT 4.0 is slow and insecure, agreed, but it does the job and has been fairly extensively debugged (after 6 or so Service Packs). This is even more incentive for people to use Linux, the transition is cheaper, and although the cost per techie is higher, the TCO is arguably lower. When will MS ever realise that the product isn't the problem?
I still use NT 4, so does my university. Hell, they only upgraded some of their machines from linux 1.x about a year ago.
Three years from now a sizable portion of the windows server marketbase will still be using windows nt. NT SP6 is a solid product: if it works, why upgrade? Sure it might have security issues, but if you think new MS OS'es dont you're insane.
Well that went fine and it repaired it, but two days later the same thing happened. So the second time around I used the upgrade install. things appeared to fine until the next morning. instead of it crashing it said it couldn't find an OS to boot. So finally I deleted the partition, reformat and re-installed. God forbid that ever happens on a server running SQL Server.
I think what MS wants to say is that if people don't buy their new stuff, they will soon be so broke it can't be fixed. Poor guys.
I don't need a signature.
Your argument is quite logical based on your assumption/accusation. But, really, that's where the problem lies:
All Microsoft has to do to force people to purchase upgrades is include a fatal flaw in each of their released systems
Fine, call them idiots everytime a new security issue is found. Instead, you are insinuating that they PURPOSELY include holes PREMEDITATED before the release of the product under the ASSUMPTION that it will not be found until AFTER they release the latest greatest product.
their new OSes all include legacy VM support so you can run the old programs without the security bugs.
From your POV, this is support for your twisted accusation. Actually, it is a very customer friendly action. You can use what you have for now instead of insisting that you have to use "Mission Critical App your Business Would Fail Without.LATEST VERSION designed ONLY for Latest Windows (TM)"
Not a big deal that you can try to make this lousy argument. What is sad is that you found people to mod your post "Insightful" and "Interesting" while my post will soon be modded "Flamebait" and "Troll" becuase it is unpopular not to see ultimate evil in every action by M$
---"What did I say that sounded like 'Tell me about your day?'"---
Virii: Anonymous Coward's way to say viruses.
...yeah... Comedy Gold!
So, $50 for the Linux box set vs $2000 for the 30-user license for NT4.
Hmmm.
Will be the color of my CD.
10. If Bill Gates gets more money, he can afford a borg implant for his left eye, too.
9. Linux? Never heard of it.
8. It satisfies the overwhelming slashdot community demand for Palladium, secure
computing, and better enforcement of the DMCA.
7. SAVE OVER $300 ON V1AGRA (oops. my spam filter failed and one slipped into the list)
6. w3 3l33t d00dz must have 1t 2 run directx for Quakedoom 6.
5. IN SOVIET RUSSIA, 2003 WINDOWS YOU!
4. Hey, they've got a monopoly reputation to maintain. Why not help them?
3. Oh boy! Another EULA to ignore!
2. Microsoft says this one's going to be really really good! Why should
I not believe them?
1. It moves us ever closer to Windows 2078, in which all the security holes
will be fixed once and for all.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
Ok, while Microsoft can certaintly afford to support their old OSs like NT4, and they probably should considering a lot of people use them. It's hard to blame them for not doing so. I mean, it's like people have this obsession with uptime. It wont destroy your company if you turn all the servers off for maybe an hour while you upgrade to 2k or now 2k3, or linux even.
I see it like this.
company: My computer is insecure, patch it.
MS: Your using an OS from years and years ago. Get a new one.
company: no.
is the same as
company: My house is insecure, upgrade the locks on my doors.
locksmith: You're using locks from the victorian era. There is no way to "upgrade" that. You just have to get modern locks, you know, ones that work. We've learned a lot about locks since then, and the ones we make now are actually useful.
company: no.
While there are tons of issues like having to pay MS for licenses, etc. etc. But when it all comes down to it its a matter of a company that can't stand to have their system down for a little bit of time. Sure, there are indeed some mission critical things that shouldn't go down, but its not like people will die. And if someone breaks in you'll lose a lot more than that little downtime would cost you. The only computers that can never go down are in a hospital, and even then only if they are keeping people alive. And those shouldn't be running Windows.
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
Is like saying you want patches for your 1.3.x Linux kernel branch (which was released around the same time as NT 4). Think Linus would care if there were a flaw found in 1.3.75? DOUBTFUL.
Prevent linux based DDOS's!
http://linux.denialofservice.org/
A betting pool has started on how long after Gold is released it will turn into Lead (How long until the first major security hole will be found)
An anonymous wager has been placed for 5 minutes..
Microsoft!
of their customers out in the cold without a patch. Why would you stay with a company that did that to you? They've lost a considerable amount of money already investing in NT4.0 and now it isn't supported and they most likely won't be able to do an upgrade to 2003 server cheaply or even to 2000 server. Since they lost money already I wouldn't use them anymore for fear of not being supported after spending a considerable ammount on upgrades. The best solution is to go with OpenBSD or FreeBSD for their servers. ~moosie
Windows 2003 Server doesn't support the XP interface at all. It looks like 2000 and you cannot make it look like Windows XP. A lot of the "eye candy" is left out; it has no place in a server GUI.
Doesn't sound like "certified" or "gold" mean much, since there were 6(?) service packs on Win 2000 alone, which was supposed to be so much better than NT (also like 6 service packs). I use Win2k, and it's "OK", but crashes too much for me.
stuff |
You talk a big talk, but ummmm...in reality, Linux is still pretty fly by night, and won't stand the test of time.
Anonymous Cowards - Oh God, How I hate you
The correct word is viruses, not virii. That's such a pet peeve. And actually, you're even more of a moron because you used "virii" where you should have used the singular form. "Microsoft is coming out with a new viruses". Dumbass.
Not that ingenious! They are squeezing too hard! Our company is actually reviewing (seriously reviewing, like in the process of acting...) using Linux for several services. MS is just plain too expensive, and their incessant need to lock everyone in (and all competition out) is basically scaring us away as well. They've gone too far and they are going farther...and quite simply, we're not going to take it anymore!
I'm sure we'll continue to use MS products in the future, but only where they are the best option, and we will not be forced to use them!
I said "I have this Model T in the back yard. I think it needs a new engine. Can you supply me with one?" Now the guy on the end of the 'phone says "What? No! We don't have any parts that would fit a model T. Thats an ancient car, you'll have to get a new one if you want parts from us." I couldn't believe it! Whats up with companies these days? I mean, they made the car, they should supply parts. Admitedly, they stopped making the model T years and year ago, but I'm a customer (Well, my grandfather bought the model T, but I bought a truck from them in 1997) They should support their old products; its unfair that they don't.
I think that Microsoft should change the way they name releases... instead of say, i.e. "it goes Gold", say "it condensated" (from the vapor it was all those years, I mean)... saying that "it goes Solid" in the same way of thinking would be misleading, there is nothing solid in a new released Windows until there is a big amount of service packs applied.
Also the name had changed even more than the projected release date, first Whistler, next Windows 2002 Server, next Windows .Net Server, then Windows .Net Server 2003, and the final name is Windows Server 2003. I wonder if their own "mutating penguin" ad gives them some inspiration for this name and date changes.
Microsoft is running microsoft.com on it. See here.
get nemulator
Windows 2000 was quite usable before SP1 was released. I'm sure people will do a lab test of Windows 2003 before deploying it, but there's probably no reason it flat out wouldn't work.
quote
Web Edition, which will sell for $399.
unquote
That is crazy. Why would anyone buy this?
Pfft - used to be you'd have to sell a million copies to get a gold record - now any billionair can just put it out there and declare it 'gold' - the whole disgusting process just cheapens the precious metal and the achievements of all the others who earned their gold records legitimately.
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
Actually, I've been using XP Server (2003 Server, .NET Server -- whatever) Release Candidate 2 for a couple months now, and have been quite impressed with it's feature set, stability, and performance.
I'm very much looking forward to borrowing the final release from the office and getting rid of a few RC2 bugs that have been irking me.
In other news, the first exploits for the new windows version are still behind schedule. "We still need a bit of final QA and tests on some obscure hardware" said l33t h4x0r, one of the many 14-year olds waiting eagerly for windows 2003. "I mean, the old one was funny for a while", l33t said, "but after a couple years it got boring finding the essentially same bugs again and again and again."
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
In our office we will never seriously consider Linux as a replacement for Windows file servers simply because the security on the file system is too basic. We need it to support access control lists! We do, however, use Linux for firewalling, email serving, http proxy, etc.
Forgot to mention that they're using RC1. I'd say that qualifies as pre-SP1.
get nemulator
What does the firm you got the system from do when MS decides it won't patch NT anymore? The OS is closed source, no matter what other merit it has for you, the IT-firm you bought it through can not patch it on its own. Support is therefore limited to maintenance until something weird happens on the network and your NT4 servers aren't prepared.
Of course these cash cows are behing a proper firewall, so getting to them would be hard, but still.. running a closed source OS that the original manufacturer has stopped supporting doesn't sound very clever to me.
Also, I imagine that your servers are somehow clustered to provide failover. What keeps you from adding a new machine to the cluster to absorb load while you take the others down in sequence to upgrade them (either to Win2K (3 years old, still supported, and by now quite proven) or maybe even Linux (2.2-kernels are rock-solid, RedHat will support them)?
I'm not bashing NT because of its merits as an OS, I just think it's not very clever for any company to put all their eggs in a basket the original basket-maker won't vouch for anymore, won't fix if it breaks, and won't supply you with the needed tools to fix it yourself. I'd say that is a very strong reason, and rushing is never good. Just plan ahead and draft proper upgrade procedures, build a test lab setting to see if what you're planning will work, then carefully roll out the upgrade gradually.
Learn from the mistakes of others. There isn't enough time to make them all yourself.
Anyone have a measurement of how many versions of windows have gone gold compred to duke nuke 'em?
Sounds like we have a new measurement for age once duke nuke 'em does come out.
"Yeah, our software went gold in half a nuke"
-
ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only
Having a firewall protect your vulnerable servers may seem like a good idea, and it is in part, but in most offices the majority of "attacks" come from within the organization. Also, what if your firewall is compromised? It will be easier for a cracker to gain access to systems that are still vulnerable. Personally this whole "we can't fix NT 4" attitude from MS is suspicious. Sounds like they are simply trying to push people to upgrade. On the other hand, NT 4 is freakin' old. Does Red Hat support a 7 year old version of Linux?
Fine, call them idiots everytime a new security issue is found. Instead, you are insinuating that they PURPOSELY include holes PREMEDITATED before the release of the product under the ASSUMPTION that it will not be found until AFTER they release the latest greatest product.
I am not stating that they premeditate the insertion of the bug, but I am stating that they aren't going out of their way to remove them.
A majority of the bugs that have been discovered in windows would be easily caught by a proper security QA code review team.
I am more saying that they don't go out of their way to remove security bugs before release, not that they actively place bugs in there. It's not very easy to place a bug that seems like an accident and that won't be found by the public for a while.
Not a big deal that you can try to make this lousy argument. What is sad is that you found people to mod your post "Insightful" and "Interesting" while my post will soon be modded "Flamebait" and "Troll" becuase it is unpopular not to see ultimate evil in every action by M$
I find it disappointing that a person who obviously is knowledgeable and logical resorts to insulting not only me, but people who mod my post and people who mod yours. In a way it is an irony that you were wrong and your post was modded insightful (at least it was insightful when I first read it.) Personally though, I find your post very interesting and insightful, and it points out something that I had unfortunately failed to clarify my stance on.
I don't see ultimate evil in every action by Microsoft, I just see a lot of potential for abuse, and historically Microsoft has taken advantage of these opportunities. Perhaps this time they aren't, but unfortunately you and I will never truly know.
~ kjrose
Some of them actually have some valid uses for this technology. i.e. Enforcing some Word documents like standard forms as readonly to most employees (even after they hit the user's hard drives), but giving more rights to the department that produces the forms.
just another meme for the FUD factory
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
Hey, sleepy:
At last check, Win2K had just passed SP3.
Can I bum a sig? I left mine at the office.
I know MS are not dummies. I actually admire how quick they are, but there something very strange going on now. They know that linux is starting to hurt them. They know the economy is in shambles. They know there is a war on and security is on everyone's mind. The only thing I can think they are doing is knowlingly using the fear of the current war *and* refusing to make things more secure unless people buy their new servers. Are they really doing the equivalent of scaring little old ladies?
Sigs are dangerous coy things
Announcer: "Krusty the Klown" is brought to you by the new "Windows 2003": It's slightly better ... to the max!
Bart: [watching on TV] 2003? [groan] And I'm stuck with this useless Windows XP? [he drop-kicks the system into the fireplace, where it slowly melts]
XP System: Don't destroy me! I can still make you happy ... to the max!
I think given today's TCP/IP-centric networking, most server users should have dumped Windows NT Server a LONG time ago for Linux, OpenBSD/FreeBSD or the newer Windows Server versions.
Besides, Windows 2000 Server and now Windows Server 2003 supports ACPI configuration, which makes adding new hardware and driver support for new hardware much easier.
XFS offers acls and has been out for a few years now. The upcoming Reiser4 will support them and if I'm not mistaken the 2.5 series kernels will contain a common framework for acls so that one can switch between acl supporting filesystems with minimal breakage.
people are still patching it today :
http://www.mikes-afordable.com/
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
... a gamma release in the way back days of software development before rampant marketing took hold.
If it's anything like previous "gold" releases of MS products, it is "going gold" the way a lump of lead will "go gold" if you dip it in a solution of gold nitrate.... :)
Won't you adopt one? They come from a background of abuse and neglect.
It takes a village to raise an OS.
Don't you start!
I have to say that 'nix 2.4 was a revelation after spending time using NT4. But Win2k is quite a good product. But MS will be on to a loser launching a costly product in the middle of a downturn - good news for Linux though and another reason why MS are being slaughtered in the server field.
there is no such thing as "certifying gold".
it's b.s.
"going gold" means that the software/code/app whatevah has been sent off to a CD Mastering company to create a GOLD (reflective layer) GLASS MASTER disc for replication into those cheap $0.02 plastic coasters we all know and love.
There might be a small chip on my shoulder, because whenever I (and probably others as well) post to /. or any other site, I use quite alot more time writing my posts and making sure they don't contain any typos than most other people with english as their first language. I didn't mean to pick on you, but rather let off some steam at people who get all busy with commenting any grammatical errors instead of reading what the post actually says.
Also I would like to apologise for calling you american when infact you're scottish... :)
Be like the twenty-second elephant with heated value in space-Bark!
sadly, w2003 server will be the only way to make use of windows media 9 which, despite whatever people may say, looks great and performs nicely.
the current windows media architecture is extremely flawed... it's the only streaming platform i've ever heard of where the server pulls the stream from the encoder.
the result: we have a server in a co-lo... we sadly have to put our xp windows media encoder on a public ip so the public server can pull from it (firewall rules will only allow the xp box to be accessible from our server).
with w2003 you can fianally do windows media from a private ip like you can w/ real, shoutcast, et al. and push your stream from behind a firewall...
not a big deal to you all I'm sure but very nice for me!
The "source code", so to speak, for the Model T is out there, and Ford will not sue you for making or modifying Model T parts.
It is not unfair that Ford does not support the Model T, but it might be if they did what they are not doing: prevent the Model T devotees from "supporting" their cars.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
Microsoft has renamed its Shared Source program as Freedom Source program!
viruses: Metroid72's way of saying I'm really goddamn anal.
- adam
"...or buy a new system at an inflated price, that will do exactly the same thing your old system did..."
The 2003 servers will cost the same or, in some cases less than 2000 server. And you call that inflation?
The truth doesn't care what I think.
Awfully convenient don't you think, that an UN-FIXABLE bug shows up in NT 4.0 right before 2003 server goes gold. Seems a little toooooo convenient to me.
Next thing ya know MS is going to tell us they didn't have anything to do with removing dividend taxes right after they started paying them.
The simple fact is that upgrading from NT4 is waaaaaaaay too hazardous to try. This seems like a joke, but it's not. My workplace upgraded from NT4 Terminal Server and some version of Citrix to Win2K and a newer version of Citrix, and it took us weeks and a ton of downtime to come even close to finished, because of conflicts with applications that had worked fine under NT4 TS, but now were crashing/running into permission blocks/etc under the new config. Not to mention the issues we had with upgrading profiles, and everything else. This is literally why our webserver is still NT4 SP6a, and our SQL server is MS SQL 7 on NT4. We're too afraid of the possible downtime associated with the upgrades of these absolutely critical boxes. True, the security risks could be just as bad, but when in doubt, my boss wants the status quo. My boss would love to go to a Unix, because it's free... but we've dumped an insane amount of money into licenses. So that's also impossible at this point. Good strangehold MS has, now that I think about it. =) -Greg
-Greg
I've got a Dell server running NT4 with an uptime of over 500 days. The nice thing about such an old OS is that it doesn't get updated every 2-6 months! And because I'm behind a firewall, I don't need to worry about the recent vulnerability.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
What is sad is that you found people to mod your post "Insightful" and "Interesting" while my post will soon be modded "Flamebait" and "Troll" becuase it is unpopular not to see ultimate evil in every action by M$
/. moderation: it only takes 5 assholes.
The fatal problem with
Just 5.
Hmmm, so if you have Windows 2003 Server, I wonder if M$ will also capitalize by releasing Back Office 2003 .... and force everyone to use enterprise software that is 2003 and higher as well .....
...
As is, you have to have Windows XXXX Server to use their enterprise software, and since they're even more active in tracking server licenses, doesn't anyone else think that MIGHT also use this opportunity to force everyone to upgrade all of their other software packages as well???
Just a crazy thought
HallmarkOrnaments.Com
gold = no more changes before release
ie. "freezing the code"
Uh, this is about to get really confusing...quotes of quotes, oh well...
/. gallery.
/. *grin*
I am not stating that they premeditate the insertion of the bug, but I am stating that they aren't going out of their way to remove them
My response was based on your original post and was all I had to go on. Look at it again, my emphasis, of course...
ALL Microsoft has to do to FORCE PEOPLE to purchase upgrades is INCLUDE A FATAL FLAW in each of their released systems"
I'm sorry, I am trying to see how it is your original post wasn't SUGGESTING that it was purposeful. REALLY trying.
If you simply think they missed it, then this is the normal software cycle and really is nothing to comment on.
In a way it is an irony that you were wrong and your post was modded insightful
I agree, I was wrong, and rather amused.
Okay, you wish to stand outside of the the camp that holds EVERY M$ action as evil. That's cool.
But, I stand by my original "insult"-
One person say something bad about M$=much cheering from the
Another person calls that post unfounded, it will most likely be buried.
ESPECIALLY on
---"What did I say that sounded like 'Tell me about your day?'"---
I just wonder if they will just switch to a free alternative such as Linux when either their support or the EOL NT4 comes.
Yeah, the lock analogy has more to do with letting things in and out of an existing structure, sort of like a server does. And yes I know that it isn't perfect. But the lock analogy was closer than demolishing a whole house...
All you need is a single vindictive employee inside your company, one with moderate computer skills, and they could screw over your NT boxes without you knowing who did it? Internal firewalls/IDS are just as important as external firewalls. No need to tap fibres, just an angry user with his own proper account.
I run a much smaller network myself (small design/media firm, not exactly a corp), and it's got packet filtering on every server to prevent or at least log unusual behavior from any otherwise legitimate clients. For example connections from server A to server B and vice versa are never needed. I block any traffic between them from both sides. If one of the servers gets compromised, it can't be used as a launchpad to attack the others. I've seen too many cases where the threat (and successful breakin) came from the inside. This is especially true for schools/colleges, but I've also seen interns at corps "explore" the network and get to places they never should have been able to get to.
Remember how NT only got its C2 certification when it's not connected to any network at all? That way you could just as well cast your server in concrete and lower it to the bottom of the ocean. It won't get hacked, but it won't get used either. Networked computers are a risk, both from the outside and the inside. The inside risk just gets overlooked much too often.
Just a question about your scanning procedure. Do you know in advance what an MS patch will do without applying it to some test server? The difference between a patch and a virus are very small, and I'm not trying to bash MS here.. it just that patches, like viruses, alter existing binaries.
Learn from the mistakes of others. There isn't enough time to make them all yourself.
I think maybe the 'anti-fascists' just disagree as to who is the fascist.
The fascist is the one who is (and has been for 50) going around starting wars to furthur its international political and business interests.
The fascist is the one who brainwashes its public into thinking that if they remotely disagree with the government they are siding with the evil enemy.
The fascist is the one whose most popular news networks show heavily biased information.
The fascist is the one who uses his religion to justify killing people, while condemning people for doing exactly the same.
The fascist is the one who condemns 'terrorism' but goes and does exactly that. (heard anything about this 'shock and awe' thing over the last few days? you dont think that's the same thing? go and look up the definition of terrorism.)
The fascist is the one whose government actively admits that they want their nation to be leader of the world, and that this action is just a stepping stone in that process.
I think I've got a bit off the subject now, and we're no longer technically talking about fascists, but my point remains.
Malike Bamiyi wanted my assistance.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
- If you are a normal user, you could give a crap. No upgrade.
- If you are a developer, you might upgrade if you can afford it/justify it/take the time to stress it out. But I can't see much development moving to 2003 anytime soon, other than just testing on it.
- Most companies are in a bind, they've just figured out how to work 2K or XP upgades into their budgets/plans. 2003 is NOT going to be appealing for awhile.
- If they've already upgraded to 2K, they're not going anywhere. 2K's been solid for me, and it seems like the rest of the world generally agrees. (YMMV) At least we know of a lot of the problems with 2K and (if you've kept up with it) the patches are applied. No surprises. 2003? It's like opening a present from your grandmother. You have no idea what's inside, but you're pretty sure you're not going to like it.
- If you are using NT, you are either a) an NT zealot/whore and you wouldn't switch if God himself upgraded, b)you have so many scars from NT that you now feel obligated to your tormentor *crack!* Yes, Mistress!, or c) you are on NT for a reason...you have a 56 day uptime, the box sits in the corner under the donut rack, and has survived 3 major floods. You can't justify getting rid of it.
So. Microsoft releases yet another product to mediocre reviews and sluggish market response. Next.Blog,Twitter
Microsoft is expected to announce on Friday that Windows Server 2003 has completed testing and has been certified final, or gold, code.
Final code? Does that mean this one can't be
fixed, either?
With 35% of their server customers still using NT 4
At least the NT4 users know what bugs they are dealing with. With 2003 you have the joy of discovering a whole new set of bugs. And having to pay for the privilege too.
One man's upgrade in another man's pain in the ass. That's not a bug, that's a feature. Etc.
Paugh.
Can anyone tell me what's the difference between Windows Server 2003 that will be released next month and the version of Windows Server 2003 RC2 (Release Candidate 2) available on MSDN subscription website ??
Also, what's the difference between Visual Studio
Thanks
Mod Parent up - That is hilarious
Does it come with Duke Nuke'em?
;)
> Very few people are comfortable running version 1.0 server software, which is essentially what this is.
I'd hardly equate it with version 1.0 software. Last time I checked, Windows has been around for awhile and they reuse code. Modern Windows is much more mature than Windows of the previous decade. A better analogy would be a .0 release of RedHat - wait for the .1 or .2
...and have looked at 2003, especially the "Shadow Restore" feature which would be great for our users. But we have no budget so we're looking more seriously at SuSE linux and Samba for file and print servers. We still have a few apps that run on NT and are served thru the IIS webserver (internally only, not over the internet thank God), so they will contilue to run on NT with the need only for a single CAL for unlimited number of users, indefinitely until those apps are completely replaced with something completely different.
Get your Unix fortune now!
All I'm going to say here is I was hired at my current ISP and everything was being run on WinNT. As you know the economy is pretty jacked right now and things have been tight for the past year. We're still on WinNT for a few of our things. I have, however, placed linux in several places over the 3 years I've been working there. We simply can't afford Win2k or Win2k3 license fees right now and with 2 GLARING problems that I see I wouldn't do it anyway.
I'm a very security minded individual. I lock everything down as much as I can and run patches ATLEAST weekly. The problem here is, in that 3 years time, I've sat here and watched my Windows servers get comprimised 9 times. Not a single one of my linux servers have been. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, I'm just saying I haven't had a problem with that happening. Now they turn around and expect me to purchase a new server license to continue to run software that I'm going to have to spend all my time on constantly cleaning up after a hack or virus. Hell, one of the hacks I received forced me to format and reinstall the box due to the amount of damage done by the hacker. That was a real pain in the ass since there was 250 high level sites on that box. Those sites....well, were obviously removed from NT servers after that hack and had no downtime since.
This little "unfixable security flaw" has simply forced me to step up my conversion process. Within the next 6 months there won't be one single Windows server left on my network and quite frankly, it makes me happy to say/do that.
While they try to force me (and other NT users) to upgrade, they've successfully forced me to do so, just not the way they wanted to. The first time this problem happens to one of my machines will be the instant it's brought up long enough to pull the data off it.
I don't believe service pack 6 for NT4 was available in 96 - and if we're going to compare apples to apples, instead of oranges - since Linux development is all a matter of applied patches. With a similar twist, I could say I'm running a Linux system that's, what?, 10 years old.
I would expect a low slashdot id to have an evolved command of the english language. However, this seems to not be the case.
cince is not a word and a difficut typo. The word you are looking for is since.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
What about certification? I mean when 2K came out there were a lot of complaints about how if you failed the Win2K test you had to start over. Does this mean it will be the same with 2k3? If so that means people who want to keep the cert get to shell out another few hundred to about a grand on books , classes and teting.
SuDZ
Someone posted that you cannot make 2003 server look like XP. Actaully yes you can, the themes service is disabled by default. You can enableit and select the XP theme.
Why are mindless humans still drawn to religion? Shouldn't it have been eradicated by now?
Answer: Religion is for the weak minded. They seek answers to questions that cannot possibly be answered. Religion gives them answers and makes them so arrogant that their answers are right that they criticize everyone else, bash other religions, and try to push their shit on everyone else.
CmdrTaco recommends we nuke all religions ASAP.
er I mean previewed by this weekend?
This is a sig, there are many like it, but this is mine.
That's a real PRODUCTIVITY ENHANCEMENT right there, - 5 min X N , every time I want to change somehting on my goddamned machine.
As far as how this applies to Microsoft, why the hell are they putting a damn GUI on a SERVER anyway? That just makes it harder to script it or remotely admin it. Stupid ONE USER, ONE MACHINE, LOCAL DESKTOP paradygm! These guys are going at things ass-backwards and getting the expected results.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Shouldn't this be under the newly created Windows category, or is that reserved for bugs only?
since M$FT declared NT-4 broken & can not be fixed right about the time they are releasing this Windoze-2003 it surely sounds like sociallly engineering a coerced/forced upgrade with the motive (as usual) being money & maximum profit...
NT was designed as a multiuser OS from day one, unlike linux and it's variants. NT followed the same excellent design as the VAX system it was based on.
Lets face it, the linux kernel is pretty crap when it comes to some very important features that a server can use. (see threading, multiprocessor, etc...) Sun and Microsoft run rings around both of them, and while there have been many improvements in linux over the past few years, you need to take a break and look at the real world numbers. Linux isn't there yet, maybe in a few more revs.
I know I should not feed trolls, but..
The fascist is the one who is (and has been for 50) going around starting wars to furthur its international political and business interests.
Oh, you mean France in Indo-China and Africa?
The fascist is the one who brainwashes its public into thinking that if they remotely disagree with the government they are siding with the evil enemy.
Hello? Saddam has people thrown into shredding machines, and kills entire families because they dare to say his clothing does not match. Castro did a raid the other night and imprisoned about a hundred people who "dared remotely disagree" with him.
The fascist is the one whose most popular news networks show heavily biased information.
Most "facist" places have only one new network.. and that one network never criticizes the government. Have you ever heard of Pravda? It means "truth" in russian. Sheesh.
The fascist is the one who uses his religion to justify killing people, while condemning people for doing exactly the same.
I missed the part where we had rallies and wore headbands that said "Kill Arabs". Could you provide a link?
The fascist is the one who condemns 'terrorism' but goes and does exactly that. (heard anything about this 'shock and awe' thing over the last few days? you dont think that's the same thing? go and look up the definition of terrorism.)
Wow. Have our soldiers been executing prisoners? Going around out of uniform? Pretending to surrender and then shooting? How about parking next to hospitals, and using kids for sheilds?
The fascist is the one whose government actively admits [newamericancentury.org] that they want their nation to be leader of the world, and that this action is just a stepping stone in that process.
Are we talking about about those peace loving mullahs, who rant about finding jews behind trees and rocks and killing them?
I tried beta 2 and it crashed every third or fourth time I opened Windows explorer. All in all it looked okay, but it was about as stable as Margo Kidder.
Topic says it all.. It only adds bloat and security holes..
A server doesnt need a native local GUI as webpage based managment tools is more then enough, and more flexable... or the diehards can just use text..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Subject says it all. Parent is NOT informative as it gives false information as others point out.
As others have noted, Luna IS part of 2003 server (Themes service). Please mod parent overrated.
Okay, maybe this can be explained in simple terms, you see, 1970 is over, and people use these things called a mouse to work on this thing called a computer, in this case it's called a server.
And guess what, it makes the server easier to work with, it reduces the learning curve for new admins and lets people do more. It also takes away a lot of crypic command line programs that the average server admin used to have to remember.
And I have news for everyone who wants to revisit the good old days of the CLI:
EVERY CRITICAL COMMAND IS AVAILABLE FROM THE COMMAND LINE.
Yes, you can't browse the web from the CLI, and you might not be able to set your mouse settings, but want to add a user to the server? Yes, you can do that, you can add a web server, start and stop any service and most drivers, add a virtual directory to a virtual web server, sure, you can do that. Want to change your domain policy settings, CLI tool for that too.
The world is moving on, a GUI on a server is a good thing, it reduces headaches in the long run. Yes, I use the CLI a lot, sometimes it's just faster, but the GUI is by far the better interface for day to day admin work. And anyone who says you cant administer a Windows 2000 server from the command line, never bothered to try.
So this means that we'll see it up on the warez sites by this weekend?
Straight from the horses' mouth: http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2003/mar0 3/03-28WNS2003RTMpr.asp
The NTFS journal will clean the mess right up, I've done this tons of times with no anomalies.
"the NT 4 that is so broke it can't be fixed -- Microsoft is hoping for quick adoption." I don't think they will ever release anything that isn't broke
No probably not. But then again, neither will Sun, Redhat, Novell, or anybody else. All software has bugs, or had them at one time, so all software is broken in at least one respect. There are very, very few exceptions. I can't really think of any off-hand that don't.
(Score: -1, Stupid)
There are *3* service packs for Windows 2000, not 6. Do some research (http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/downloads/se rvicepacks/default.asp) next time instead of taking a random guess.
mcox.com - Useful Information re: IT, Running, Fitness, Finance, or Ann Arbor!
Nah, actually, I think the guy is gin-u-wine...unless M$ has finally realized that a little self-deprecation (microsoft does lack the vibrant communinty projects) would help the credibility of their 'turfers. Like that's actually going to happen tho.
Let's not let the 'turfers win. If we assume that anyone with an opposing viewpoint is 'turfing, we lose the ability to actually discuss, and M$ wins anyway.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
(Basically, what's in it for me ?)
Well it's been a "hot" topic with Microsoft for a while now, it's interesting to see that they are actually going to go ahead with this thing (I mean this isn't the first time this type of security was built into an os/operating system, and you don't see any more of THAT stuff still around do you? What failed once is doomed to fail again)
Though windows having this isn't the concern I would raise. So fine Windows now has another stike against it, and my ancient copy of Civilization(first version) no longer works because it's not signed by Microsoft (but the emulation layer is there, and it works wonderfully!) and I must sell my soul to make any useful program work, etc.
What CONCERNS me is when this stuff starts making it into hardware. This is when MS could start making a power grab at being even more monopolistic than before. Right now they just make HUGE suggestions on what hardware should be around in say 5 years. If the pall stuff was in hardware they could effectivley squeeze out every that wasn't MS or a current uptodate OS[read: that they have made you pay for it in the last 10 minutes] , etc. It would be a sad day when it gets to that point, because it's not even the government who has taken our liberty away..... it's a monopolistic company, and our only hope [obi-won?] is that Apple doesn't fall prey to that mess, and we can still run linux on mac hardware.
Apparently part of microsoft's tactic to get people to upgrade: Only 2003 server will support hyperthreading properly. Win2k treats logical CPUs as real CPUs, counting them against the license.
An experimental Python for .NET with full source and a whitepaper from our friends at ActiveState.
nbiar
Of course you can.
Its called Windows + Cygnus + Lynx. Cygnus is also a good way to make a Windows server more friendly to admins who like the GNU environment, increase interoperability with UNIX platforms, and do some admin of the Windows server with XFree86 is you so desire.
perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10)'
As in piss?
I was talking more about a default configuration. I've used lynx several times, neat program. I know there are other text browsers out there as well, but lynx is the most well known.
1) Single Machine: On the windows update page, click Personalize Windows Update and remove all the crap you don't want to run anymore.
:-)
2) In a network enviroment:
a) Install SUS on a server
b) Make a GPO that installs AutoUpdates to your servers.
c) SUS downloads fixes from MS.
d) AutoUpdates installs fixes from SUS (after admin approval)
e) Never use windows update again.
www.christopherlewis.com
If I've seena stupider sig, I don't remember it.
Additional CALs will be available for $199 in packs of five or $799 for 20
(20 / 5) * $199 = $796.Windows SSDD scheduled to be forced on their customers? :)
-Cnik
I keep hearing this argument. Have you ever called Microsoft Support? I've never gotten one question answered. Yet, I can jump into #linux on dalnet or any of the comp.os.linux newsgroups and have answers in minutes, for free. Where is this Microsoft Tech support that makes the product so much more viable?
- "That's just the kind of fuzzy-headed liberal thinking that leads to being eaten."
Could it be that the "unfixable" NT bug may have influenced the decision to say that Server 2003 was good enough? Perhaps not fixing some "minor" bugs til later?
Trouble, a mistake or fun, your choice
In this upside down world software that does not break is doomed, and the only products that have a real future are those that include significant flaws. Revenue is obtained by convincing the purchasing public that new versions of software fix all the problems. Such a fantasy.... New versions, new problems, never versions to fix the new problems, billions for Bill....!!!
I think you are off by a few versions. I believe it was supposed to read: WIndows 640 K, because who would ever need a higher verison? -Iowa
"He who laughs last, didn't get the joke."-Cap
MS Lawyer - Your Honor, I'd like to bring to your attention Exhibit A (Win NT EULA).
Judge - Case dismissed... Plaintiff, you may cover the court's costs.
Come and see the violence inherent in the system!
-c
I have discovered a truly remarkable proof which this margin is too small to contain.
Why would you use Cygnus to run Lynx on a win box when there are plenty of ports already?
Do not fold, spindle or mutilate.
Win NT 4 is more like a mid 80's Ford. Not the first generation product from Ford or Microsoft. And yes Ford does still support many of thier 80's automobiles
40 more updates and 183 security patches to go and we'll also have useable Windows code.
Flamebait or Troll, take your pick
-uso.
Dreams, dreams, don't doubt dreams, dreaming children's dreaming dreams. Sailor Moon SS
Just another example how MS forces you to continue shelling-out more cash as time goes by. The timing for this is just a little too perfect it seems (like 2 days?) to say that MS did not discontinue support for NT4 in preparation for the release of Server 2003. Now, companies using NT4 are almost forced to buy the upgrade even when I'm sure NT4 works according to Microsoft's high standards of quality in other areas. This is another example of Microsoft's profit-motivated engineering working for them and against everyone else. Just wait 10 more years...
Now here's an idea macroshafties will love... *roll-eyes*
Windows in ROM!
Now there's a surefire way to prevent competition. *sigh*
-uso.
Dreams, dreams, don't doubt dreams, dreaming children's dreaming dreams. Sailor Moon SS
I know,I must sound like a lunatic.But you have to admit,it sounds pretty good tho eh? It's also reassuring to know that I've got your back with some pretty sweet prayers.It might seem hard to attain such a high level of faith,but if you hunker down and try to think of yourself as a main character in a movie,with god as the producer/director,it seems a lot more dramatic.
At that point,you just have to play 'the role' as I call it.
Hmmm, so if you have Windows 2003 Server, I wonder if M$ will also capitalize by releasing Back Office 2003 .... and force everyone to use enterprise software that is 2003 and higher as well .....
Don't ask such stupid questions... of course they will. Everyone already knows this.
"Upcoming updates include: ...Windows Rights Management Services (RMS), a security enhancement;
For whom, exactly, would this be a "Security enhancement"?
"
In Soviet Union Russia RMS protects itself from YOU!
Oh shit wait a minute.....
http://saveie6.com/
I have 3 2k servers and 3 NT4 servers. They don't crash. The only time I reboot them is when a patch comes out. The *few* times I had a crash on 1 of the 2k's, it was a video card issue that MS had nothing to do with.
Windows will use loosers in every upgrade cycle
Well, because you may want the other GNU tools as well?
come on..who are they trying to fool?
the probablity of windows 2003 going gold is the same as the probability of me finding a girl in 2003 that would go south on me
my blog
is so broken, we acknowledge it cannot be fixed *mumble* without significant cost to ourselves *mumble*; however, we have extended the offer allowing you to pay us for the privilege of beta testing ... err ... using . Regrettably, you do not qualify for a free upgrade because you accepted our .
You are wrong. One does not obtain thier right into heaven. Only god knows our hearts, so do not judge others' eligibility, or you will get lashed out replies directed at YOU.
I used to have strong faith, but I wised up and realized it was all in my head. You will probably accuse me of not having true faith. Indeed, according to religious numbnuts, true faith is believing something, willing to die for it, willing to kill for it, willing to shove it down other people's throats, and dismissing all evidence that might disprove your faith. Religion blows shit.
MOD GREAT GRANDPARENT DOWN!!!
/*adfasd;*/
Did you get all that?
Because Microsoft bloat is bad, but GNU bloat is great! Are you new here?
The RC2 versions on MSDN earlier today have been replaced by the final builds. It's not mentioned on the homepage anywhere, but it's up. Looks like CNet got it right - there's no announcement anywhere I've looked, but those who pay UKP1700 per developer per year for the privilege of developing for the Windows platform can now download it. And then post it on Kazaa :)
Sam: System crashes when you hit Enter at the wrong time?
Bob: Check.
Sam: System spends more time booting up then running?"
Bob: Check.
Sam: System crashes and loses your data at exactly the moment that you need it most?"
Bob: Check.
Sam: Whew... That's the last of the 3,400 check inspection. Mark that thing gold and let's get some beer.
Yeah... I can see that. Because at Microsoft, if it doesn't start out as a buggy piece of garbage and go downhill from there, it's not good. (Remember, if your software doesn't say Microsoft, it's not the real thing.)
It will only cost you $7,999 to get terminal server to work over that complex thingy called the internet. ( that is in addition to the OS fee and CAL fees ).
..and John Ashcroft for their help with this newest addition to the windows landscape..
Caveat Emptor.
Apparently, not this bug though. What a crock of shit.
that's all i've got to say, bro. A-fucking-MEN.
"... I declare our city to be a free and independent state to be named Tri-Insula!" --Fernando Wood, Mayor of NYC 1861
GnuWin32 provides Win32 (MS Windows 95 / 98 / ME / NT / 2000 / XP) ports of tools with a GNU or similar open source licence.
Whenever you see those words on Slashdot, it implies that Win 2003 Compact Disks or DVDs are going to be stamped at a factory from a set of master disks. Going gold does not mean they sold anything!
;x
Oh well, every post prior to this one doesn't realize this
Cover your eyes and click this link!
Yes, it IS being released. I work for a company that helped to put on the release party on friday afternoon. Lots of drinking. They had a mock CNN announcement about MS stocks going up and their competitor's sliding and gave away amusing awards as well. They even bashed a car up with the Sun Microsystems logo on it. Judging from the party I can see now that they are correct when they say Microsoft has more money than they know what to do with. Man I'm sore from yesterday...time for sleep...
Bloat is bloat. Its all about giving your bloated admins the flavor of CLI bloat they need to get the job done and manage the server effectively, and keep services available for bloated users.
<sarcasm>Everything was so simple, streamlined, and scaled so effortlessly when until those lousy users were allowed to get their dirty little paws all over the interweb.</sarcasm>
perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10)'
How did the term 'facism' come to mean any kind of distastefull behaviour?
Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but AFAIK the term 'facism' comes from the 'faci', Mussolini's special police who went around beating up dissenters and shouting pro-goverment slogans in the streets.
Now we can definitely say that this type of organisation exists in Iraq, but for the Americans, all of their secret police are in countries outside the USA (although recent events seem to suggest begginnings of a 'faci' inside the US too).
When the CIA deposed the democratically elected Government of Iran, and installed the Shah, they helped the Shah to create a secret police that arrested, tortured and murdered thousands of people. They set up the same type of organisation in Chile, Cuba, Guatemala and many other countries as well.
So, at this moment in history, you couldn't really say the United States Goverment is a facist organisation INSIDE THE UNITED STATES. That really only occurs in small countries unfortunate enough to appear on the US's economic (oil, resources) or Cold War (location) radar. Then what occurs could definitely be described as facism, only most Americans don't get to hear about it.
just my 1.19 US cents
>>
I am the director, and this is my movie
Ok. Combine DRM with planned OS obselesence. Even though NT4 is supposed to EOL in June, this looks much like a breach of contract [microsoft.com] at worst and a complete faux pas at best. The "Who are you going to count on in 5 years?" question is sure answered. It sure shows that the Linux distros provide better support.
Moving to Netware, OS X or to one of the OSS operating systems is really the sole option to avoid going into an expensive world of hurt.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
God, that's scary...
I can see why you'd post that anonymously.
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
> I'm an idiot.. At least this [bug] took about 5 minutes to find..
We need to find some new terms to describe the rest of us mere mortals
then.
-- Craig Schlenter in response to Linus Torvalds's
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