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Ballmer Wants to "Stomp Linux" Using MS community
StefMeister writes "According to this article on CNet, MS wants to fight Linux by using their community support (of course by community they mean the few guys they personally know and who make money using their MS knowledge). My favorite quote of the article is this one "Linux is not like Novell, it isn't going to run out of money--it started off bankrupt, in a way.""
...REMIX!!!!
Welcom to Slashdot!
Where in this article does Ballmer say he is going to "stomp Linux?" Nowhere! Journalism 101 people! Don't fight FUD with FUD!
PDHoss
======================================
Writers get in shape by pumping irony.
Well, taking his famous, ah, 'performance' into account, this might not be too far from the truth, if one takes 'stomp' to be in the sense of Godzilla trying to 'stomp' Tokyo.
I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
So uhm, after they stomp out linux, what then, stomp out BSD? And uhm, after that? Apple's OSX? RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT.. I'm shaking in my Open Source boots.
Can all fish swim?
I'm imaging it's like the /. community except all the posts will be s/microsoft/linux.
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
It seems to me that this is just CNets version of the same story that was reported yesterday.
While it Ballmer is always good for a laugh, it always turns into a slow sad chuckle.
Really, I know what I'm doing...Ohhhh, look at the shiny buttons!
Obviously one editor has no idea what the other is doing. Can we not have back-to-back stories about the same article? That was like, yesterday.
Let's get drunk and delete production data!
But we've got nowhere to go but up....
What's your damage, Heather?
As opposed to Microsoft, which, of course, will simply end up bankrupt...
Any sufficiently well-organized Government is indistinguishable from bullshit.
What a FUDfest! Well, folks hopefully have seen the Register story on this. A couple of comments.
Technology like clustering would be better in Windows than Linux eventually, said Ballmer: "We will beat Linux on clusters. We can't beat them on price, but we have to add value."
Given the current market for Beowulf, I don't see MS competing on clusters, especially with "add[ed] value."
Asked by one lateral-thinking MVP whether Microsoft planned to offer applications software on Linux, Ballmer said no, adding that the big issue was a reluctance to accept legal liability for open-source software.
"We do not anticipate offering software on Linux," said Ballmer. "Nobody pays for software on Linux." Even StarOffice, sold by Sun, was originally a free product, he said. And IBM, arguably the No. 1 player in the Linux market, promotes Linux to big users, but does not actually sell Linux: "It's weird. IBM says 'Hey British Aerospace! Buy Linux...from SuSE.'"
StarOffice did not start out as a free product, iirc. And as for IBM promoting Linux, how is that any different from HP and Dell promoting Microsoft. And does the first paragraph, as the Register asked, mean that Microsoft accepts liability for their own software?
So, they plan to "beat linux on value" in the
clustering area because they realize that they
really can't beat the price.
But -- how would a 100 node microsoft cluster have
any better value than the same cluster running some
linux clustering sw? The microsoft system would
be around 100 times more expensive, and the
licensing would be outrageous.
Imagine you want to add 20 nodes to your cluster.
With linux -- no problem, cable it up and go.
With microsoft, well, you probably have to get
some more licenses, and another 20 copies of
windows to install. That's around $3500 just
for the os software.
And finally, there are lots of linux clustering
installations running today, and many of those
have been using clusters for years and have a
history of upgrades and improvements. I really
doubt these people will be interested in
switching to a microsoft monolithic cluster.
More and more, microsoft is getting desperate.
What better community to use against Linux servers :)
Usually it takes a few weeks for a dupe to cycle back in. Apparently chrisd hasn't been taking his daily dose of slashdot???
*Condense fact from the vapor of nuance*
With his developers, developers, developers, developers, DEVELOPERS!
Dance, monkey-man!
I'm kind of offended by the "few guys they personally know and who make money using their MS knowledge" line in the main post. There are a lot of advantages to Linux or ANY coding system in use today. So Linux has a very large and vocal community. Does that mean you have to give people another reason to dislike you by flaunting it instead of just appreciating it? There are a lot more M$ coders out there than you think. Just look for the .asp pages on sites both small and large. [insert joke about hacking them next here]
--- Don't be a player hater: I meta-mod ALL negative mods as Unfair.
These people crack me up.
They have to turn everything in life into a business.
"In a way they started out bankrupt"
You have to have debt in order to go bankrupt.
A social movement is not a busness. There is no way it could have been bankrupt. Stop trying to spin business terms where they don't apply.
Microsoft probably started more bankrupt than Linux. They were a business, and they probably had alot of debt. This is how most businesses start out. You get a little funding to start (if you can't pay it back.. you're bankrupt).
Their community has at least to members, the RIA and the MPAA, I think.
I think we all could have gotten the point of the story without the editorial. I'm not talking about censoring the guy, I'm just saying that it detracts from an otherwise decent story.
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
Why don't you at least try? It worked with Netscape. Someone's oxygen is being cut...
Yeah, right. Keep stomping monkey boy... ;)
because we couldn't get enough. :)
"It's not like Novell, it isn't going to run out of money--it started off bankrupt, in a way."
Just more court evidence of MS's admitted monopoly tactics. Thanks for the words, Uncle Fester.
is Balmer is a crack monkey. For evidence see here
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
There should be a rank on which /. personel
screws more repost of old news
Memo:
With respect to your corporate reports compiled by genuflecting corporate underlings.
They've misunderstood OSS, therefore you misunderstand OSS.
YHBT. YHL. HAND.
Good day, sirs.
...yet another favored MS approach.
One question, though: in the article, when Ballmer says the big issue over offering software for Linux is "a reluctance to accept legal liability for open-source software," (quote from article only, not a Ballmer quote, at least AFAIK) does he realize that works on Linux != every last bit of the source must be open, and that works on Linux != requires you to be able to take legal liability for Linux?
Also, he talks about Linux being priced at zero, then talks about IBM telling people/companies to "Buy Linux".
It's nice to have Linux recognized as a competitor, but could we have it from someone who knows what they're talking about?
For nine years, the company has designated users with particular skills--usually seen by how often they intervene helpfully in newsgroups--as "most valued professionals". Currently there are about 1,200 MVPs, half of whom are in the United States.
Oh Great! So these will be people who have nothing better to do than post to newsgroups! Oh wait a minute...
Stop Continental Drift! Reunite Gondwanaland!
> it started off bankrupt, in a way ...they're morally bankrupt.
why yes, mr. moderator, I *am* trolling.
Dammit Balmer! that's GNU/Linux ...
-Sean
They should stomps the annoying Bugs in their software before stomping the competition with FUD... A better product always sells by itself, especially in a monopoly situation. They could have an happy userbase and a more pro-microsoft community by doing so.
RIght now they are focussing their energy in stomping both consumer (DRM) and market rights, stomping competition, and stomping whatever or whoever dares to say something bad against them. This is such a waste of energy only a PR departement with too much staff can afford.
Stupid yet annoying bug to give ONE example out of probably 1000+ that people could bring up:
Since windows 95, when I'm dragging a huge folder, explorer STILL doesn't display the remanining time correctly, saying example 2 minutes remaning, and then 388432 minutes (and going down by 600 minutes every 2 seconds), I mean, for god's sake, 5 years later, 3 service pack later, windows 2000 *STILL* has that bug. This is one dumb example, but imagine all the bugs that you don't directly see.
So please microsoft, don't focus on the few users you don't have, focus on making your current userbase HAPPY so that they aren't bleeding off to your potential competitor as soon as they get a chance or get too fed up, because THIS will cost you.
--- Metamoderating abusive downgraders since my 300th post.
I'm sure Balmer is incredibly excited about war against Linux and open source. But unfortunately for MS is that - imeho (e for extremely) - there isn't a WinCommunity. Most people use windows just because: they think that windows is the only thing there is.
In Linux there's the open source community needed for any open source project to thrive and this, of course, creates many slashdot-readers-linux-maniacs.
So, how could a non-existant community "stomp" the open source community? Well... it couldn't. But with a company like MS behind it FUD usually works or in this case probably will delay the linux desktop boom.
-- Would it be acceptable to just put my name on my sig?
I wonder if Steve and Bill have nightmares and wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat and wonder if the day may come where they may have to actually *earn* the money they extract from folks?
The day will come, sooner or later, when enough people will realize that they no longer have to accept what M$ deems that the market has to buy next.
They have as much chance of doing that as I do of eliminating bindweed and moss from my garden. It will not happen. Linux's Achilles heel is ennui, in the limit, it may just be unfashionable to spend ones time tinkering with it, but as long as EE/CS continues to be taught in school a good crop of young developers will always be plugging away inplementing what is new. Not to mention country adoption such as Germany, Peru, China etc
Wishful thinking by Mr Balmer. There is no RoundUp formula that Microsoft has or can buy that can be used to Stomp linux.
Hedley
"We have to compete with free software on value, but in a smart way. We cannot price at zero, so we need to justify our posture and pricing. Linux isn't going to go away--our job is to provide a better product in the marketplace."
M$ knows that it has to make a better product than Linux to survive. I think they have a long way to go.. **Evidence**that people/community can shake huge corporations!!! C'mon M$ is afraid of /.
A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.
...for allowing people to use their mod points on articles.
Linux will always be financially bankrupt.
Microsoft will always be morally bankrupt.
So, "in a way", hasn't Microsoft always been bankrupt?
There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
:wq
because it makes me have to wank
...(of course by community they mean the few guys they personally know and who make money using their MS knowledge)
The few guys? Lets compare the number of people that make money off of Microsoft stuff compared to the number of people making money off of Linux stuff.
You are least-informed link, goodbye.
Linux is doing a pretty good job of imploding by itself. All the users and developers are clueing up to the hoax that has been perpetrated on them that linux is stable when in retrospect, it had a filesystem, ext2fs, that was unsafe and corrupted data and filesystem integrity on power failure and crashes and its vm system still isn't robust after many rewrites. It's time we acknowledge that linux has set back the state of computing by 10 years redoing what's already done very well in FreeBSD.
'Hey British Aerospace! Buy Linux...from SuSE.'
SuSE? That is a funny name.
Might as well call it GoatSE Linux. (Don't buy that one, though, they found a huuuuuge security hole in the back door.)
To quote houseparty 2....
Wasnt the link in this Slashdot article essentially saying the same thing?
Linux is a Cancer!
We'll stomp on Linux!
I'm taking my ball and going home!
How embarassing for Microsoft, their CEO sounds like a ranting 3 year old. Time for a timeout.
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
(of course by community they mean the few guys they personally know and who make money using their MS knowledge)
Are you kidding me?
Want to make some cash?
Get a group of guys together who have MCP's and MCSE's, maybe an A+ and Cisco guy for cool logos to put on your business cards.
Go around 'consulting' networks for the local small businesses for $60 an hour, $120 an hour for the SE's
If you can find the business and there's not much competition, it's like taking sugary treats from an infant.
"...our job is to provide a better product in the marketplace."
Ain't competition grand!
They can pull all of their collective necks together into one, making it easier for us to cut it off.
Hammer of Truth
Better fit, don't you think.
The simple truth is that interstellar distances will not fit into the human imagination
- Douglas Adams
*laugh* Ballmer only seems to see things in terms of money. It should be painfully obvious that Linux didn't start off "bankrupt", it started off free, which is hardly the same thing.
Quoth kalidasa: StarOffice did not start out as a free product, iirc. And as for IBM promoting Linux, how is that any different from HP and Dell promoting Microsoft.
It isn't, of course -- well, there's one crucial difference. MS doesn't get any money out of it.
And does the first paragraph, as the Register asked, mean that Microsoft accepts liability for their own software?
They keep dancing around that issue. They have, one the one hand, tried with EULAs and so on to get out of liability -- but they are also starting to realize that that lack of responbility has meant that they release shoddy software and have no immediate need to fix it. But now their reputation for less-than-good software is starting to come around and bite them in the *ss. A symptom is all the buzz that Linux and UN*X is getting. So they are starting to acknowledge *moral*, as opposed to *legal*, liability for their software products ("Trustworthy Computing").
Which could be dangerous, 'cos you can't have it both ways, really. Eventually someone's going to start suing the bejeezus out of them, once some NT-based thing goes blooey and costs someone a fortune...
Cheers,
Ethelred
Everyone wants to be Ethelred. Even I want to be Ethelred.
"Linux... making me angry... can't... contain... emotions... third-person... narration... taking... over... RAAARGHHHH!!!"
*Ballmer transforms into a giant, green-skinned version of himself, tearing his clothes and exposing his enormous gut*
"BALLMER STOMP LINUX!!! RAARRGHH!!! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS!!"
"Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
It was excellent, Stomp Linux had clever choregraphy and wonderful Celtic tunes. I laughed, I cried, it was better than Cats...
Perhaps Linux is bankrupt in a sense but one thing is for certain, Linux is not morally bankrupt. Be honest, can you say the same Steve?
MS has made its fortune turning its "community" into a gaggle of hand-held idiots; now they're going to turn to THEM for their salvation?
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
M@cr$s&ft must be getting pretty desperate if they are going to start adding value to their products.
Even with a Slashdot attention span (eg. none), I'm surprised that someone could miss that.
Another option is to use the 'Find' feature in your browser (be it IE, Lynx, Mozilla, Galeon...) and search for 'stomp'. It worked for me.
Remember that what's inside of you doesn't matter because nobody can see it.
It was the "Microsoft Community" up against Team OS2. Microsoft brought along a bunch of employees to be their "community," while us OS/2 people were a ragtag group. IBM issued us all gay pink OS/2 shirts and we ran around installing OS/2 on computers for anyone who wanted it and the MS guys mainly just wandered around trying to make it look like Microsoft had a grass roots movement too. Team OS/2 got some press coverage during that show. I don't recall anyone mentioning the Microsoft guys...
In reading the article I find it ironic that some of Ballmer's statements are similar to practices M$ employed in the mid 90's. I believe it was M$ that provided Internet Explorer free in order to displace Netscape's market share. As for the Microsoft community goes, I would rather use an OS that has been reviewed by many eyes than one that seems to have only been reviewed by the elite M$ few!
Sounds to me like M$ is getting a taste of their own medicine.
The sum of our knowledge today becomes the reference point of our ignorance tomorrow.
"Stomp Linux" is an excellent production, clever choregraphy and wonderful Celtic tunes. A truly worthwhile followup to "The Sprit of The Dance." I laughed, I cried, it was better than Cats...
-- Language is a virus from outer space.
I've never taken this guy seriously since he came hunkering across the stage like a deranged orangutan.
It makes a good virus farm ;)
Cash wise, perhaps. At least we aren't morally bankrupt. At least we, the Linux community, can look ourselves in the mirror and not be ashamed that we have fucked over anyone at any time for a few bucks. We don't destroy someone's business because we hate competetion, no matter how insignificant. We don't extort money from cash strapped schools to improve our balance sheet a few more pennies. We don't lie to our "customers" about our quality and security.
I have a one question for you, Ballmer. What's it like to have so much money and yet do so little for the good of mankind?
-- Will program for bandwidth
Like those kids on MSN Messenger?
We've always been at war with Eurasia.
Well, actually, Star Office started as a commericial product from a company called Star Division. The company was eventually aquired by Sun who in turned offered Star Office as a free download and then open souced a version of it and has now gone back to selling branded versions of the open source project (wheww!!!).
100% focus on a single irritating competitor, and 0% enough focus on why that competitor irritates you. Dumb, really.
Doesn't community imply that each member of the community benefits by participating in the community? But in the Micro$oft 'community' it seems to me that the main beneficiary is Micro$oft.
As was pointed out in the article:
"Linux and its community have a symbiotic relationship, Lee said: "You don't have that same thing at Microsoft, but there are people who are passionate and technical who are committed to doing a great job." "
So perhaps that means that Micro$oft and it's community have a parasitic relationship where Micro$oft is the big tapeworm.
What exactly does one get out of participating in the Micro$oft community?
from the article... Technology like clustering would be better in Windows than Linux eventually, said Ballmer: "We will beat Linux on clusters." ...
As long as you have an OS whose GUI cannot be separated from the rest of the kernel, you'll NEVER have the true clustering capabilities that you have in UNIX/Linux systems today. Not only can you cluster for high availability but you can cluster for computing capacity -- I challenge Microsoft to create a solution that dares compete.
The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. -- Calvin & Hobbes
Why does Ballmer think that allowing more people
to just look at the source code is going to do
any good? Why would anybody want to? You can't
do anything with it... in fact, it could be
argued that one would be forever "tainted" in
some legal sense... If you argue to so that
one could possible use some undocumentated feature, I say it shouldn't be undocumented!
"adding that the big issue was a reluctance to accept legal liability for open-source software. "
...
I'm sorry but whem has anyone tried legal action against M$ for selling you duff software. There's a big disclaimer in the license if I remember correctly. Something along the lines of
"If you lose data and your business suffers financially as a result, Microsoft accept no liability for any errors in our sofware. Tough"
Or am I wrong...???
Sounds like Microsoft is using a page out of the Apple Mac community. Using a "community" to make other feel cool for being included, and others seem un-cool for being outcasts. Aah, yes, the business case of peer pressure.
"It's not an operating system, it's a Jihad." -- Steve Ballmer
The MVP initiative will be a big part of Microsoft's efforts to promote a sense of "community" among users and developers,
It's hard to have the same sense of "community" when people all know that they are connected solely through the exchange of cash.
Linux and its community have a symbiotic relationship,
Symbiotic? I'm afraid not. Symbiotic means EACH could not survive without the other. Even if linux vanished overnight, the free software community does have other alternative open source operating systems to use. And even if all central kernel development stopped, we still have millions of copies of kernel source floating around and a new effort would begin. "Linux" (as a concept) doesn't really depend on the community; it IS the community.
Lee said: "You don't have that same thing at Microsoft, but there are people who are passionate and technical who are committed to doing a great job."
Not to sound like I'm trolling or flaming, but most companies I've seen that are "dedicated" to Microsoft only do so because it is perceived as financially risky to do otherwise.
bytesmythe
Hypocrisy is the resin that holds the plywood of society together.
-- Scott Meyer
do you remember how m$ started off. Secondly whats wrong with free "There is nothing that is around today that is absolutly free even air has a price."
SCREW FLANDERS
My favorite comment from Steve Ballmar was "We do not anticipate offering software on Linux," said Ballmer. "Nobody pays for software on Linux."
To me that shows that Microsoft still doesn't get it and they are very swiftly becoming a dinosour. The business model for an open source company is completely different from the traditional model of I sale software and you pay for it. The future is in services and support.
Microsoft's new initiative to provide the source code for the basis of a stronger community just won't work and I will tell you why. The open source community thrives on recognition, thats their motivation. Whats the motivation to fix Microsoft products and let them take all the credit. There is none.
allowing people to use their mod points on articles.
Then go here and use your mod points to mod stories up to +95.
-- Pinocchio... Microsoft must write something that doesn't suck. Then they'll do it.
If y'all could just pull yourselves over to the side of the self-rightiousness highway for jus' a second, you might wanna look at what is actually being said, and what it might mean...
Microsoft has finally admitted that they need to make improvements to its software suite to compete. Look, regardless of what they have done in the past, Microsoft has a large portion of market share, and are slowly losing it to Linux, MacOS and others. Aparently (reading between the lines here) they were able to FORCE Novell to go under via using that incredible market share, but now they can't do that. So...They have to actually IMPROVE their PRODUCTS to regain their market share.
Regardless of the eventual outcome of the OS wars that are unfolding before us, this is a GOOD THING(tm) for consumers. Period.
hmmmm?
I see some changing connotations/definitions going on here.
Microsoft is essentially equating Free Software to free beer.
By doing so they take the ethical right to free software out of the equation.
Then, they point at Open Source as say the only special about it is that the source code is viewable and that they have a community.
So, they come up with a way that they can share the Windows source with the community and then they say, "See, we are just the same as Open Source."
And, for the most part they will be.
However, what they will not be at that point is free software. And that is the true spirit behind the whole thing.
They are telling people people who want apples that apples are really oranges and that they can't give you oranges but they can give you tangerines, which are essentially the same but easier to peel. But, in the end, when you get that tangerine, you really don't have an apple afterall do you?
(Of course, Ballmer has been "using" the MS community for a long time, he just zeroed in on their wallets.)
Ooooh...you have Open Source boots? I want some!
© 2004 The SCO Group, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Ballmer's message to MS community:
"Please stomp Linux so that we can increase price of next generation Windows, make more restrictive EULA, force upgrage on you, spy on you, continue to develop insecure software."
"Deja vu is usually a glitch in the Matrix. It happens when they change something."
"...of course by community they mean the few guys they personally know and who make money using their MS knowledge..."
Ummm....few guys? Even if you think Microsoft is Satan's little cabal on Earth, you're a fool if you don't realize that MS has a huge pool of developers on their side, most of which are not directly on the MS payroll. Are you really THAT naive to think that MS has no public supporters in the dev community? A LOT of developers have hitched their wagons to MS's success. You may not like them, but you have to acknowledge them.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
Are they referring to all those angry sysadmins who curse microsoft everytime one of their boxes crash? hmm...
Favorite quote: "Nobody pays for software on Linux." given as a justification for not porting MS apps to Linux.
I guess I am the only one out there who paid for Oracle on Linux, can't imagine why Oracle keeps producing the new versions.
How about "We won't be porting our apps to Linux because that will kill sales of our less than useless OS" isn't that a bit closer to the truth?
I guess when you are a monopolist, working with another company instead of trying to buy them or squeeze them out of the market is a bit weird...
-- OpenVerse Visual Chat: http://openverse.com
Linux is dying. Muiiihahahahaha..
Cluster (k l ah1 s t er0 ) [hyperdic.net]
Noun: group: A grouping of a number of similar things.
Verb: motion: Come together as in a cluster or flock.
Therefore we can infer that:
Windows cluster: A large group of lawyers ready to surround sue the ass off of anyone they can who crosses them.
Microsoft cluster, large 500lb gorilla hands closing around the throats of competition
From these, it seems Microsoft does indeed have an effective clustering solution, albeit by different interpretation - phorm
I can see a network of MCSE technical school graduates trying to "stomp" a world wide group of computer enthusiasts (mostly Linux zealots). The difference is most linux people actually love working on computers. Myself I have been doing this kinda stuff since I was a kid (like 7), and right now I am 25 and can't get enough of it.
:-)
Most of us don't just do this for a living, but we live to do this.
and yes, I do have a girlfriend and a life
I want my rights back. I was actually using them when our government stole them after 9/11.
This article was posted on Zdnet several days ago and already collected a whole comment stream. Check out the article and attached comment system. It has all been said before.
http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104-959112.html
If the cost for each additional Linux contributor is zero, then we are not bankrupt...rather the opposite...we are infinitely wealthy.
I want to be alone with the sandwich
Find someone to design and build this cluster for free.
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/09/18/221
There's barely $200,000 worth of price difference there. 10% of the total saved by using Linux. Worth it?
Of course, the fact that most of the Novell sites are site licensed and have a significant commitment, the fact that they're making money, the fact that they have no significant debt and that some decent property holdings doesn't factor.
/. poster, but integrating this stuff makes a huge difference in a large enterprise. And you're not going to hear an integration story from Microsoft.
With products like DirXML, Netmail, Zenworks for Desktops, and yes, even Netware, trust me, they're going to be around. A Netware 6 cluster offering native Netware, NFS, Apple FS and CIFS support is pretty amazing. So are products like Account Managment, which lets you sync AD and eDirectory users, as well as Unix accounts, IBM mainframe user accounts, etc. Probably doesn't mean much to the usual
Sure, it's not always flashy, but you can get real work done, which is what those of us getting paid to do IT work should be focusing on.
Instead of giving snappy speeches to rally the masees, maybe the way to compete is to BUILD A BETTER PRODUCT THAN THE OTHER GUY! Nah.. They wouldn't want to do that. Thats just crazy.
Good, this is what MS should do.
They are looking at their competition, asking themselves what their competitors do better, and work to at least do it to.
They are giving their customers more support. They are giving their resellers more tools to work with.
By recognizing that their customers and the community of service providers are key to their success MS really has the potential to remain a serious force in the future.
I call for a truce. BSD is not the enemy. Linux is not the enemy. Hell, Mac isn't the enemy. Microsoft is the enemy. We need to prove to the masses that free software is the answer. Be it Linux, or BSD, or Mac, that doesn't matter. These stupid licenseing wars need to stop. If you like GPL for your code, then friggen license it as GPL. If you like BSD/MIT for your license, then use it. Make superior software, and support it. We need to unite. Truce amongst ourselfs, then educate the masses, don't just tell them that Linux/BSD is better, prove it.
(And for the love of God, STFU about Linux vs GNU/Linux. The MS-drones are laughing at us for that damn war.)
They have to turn everything in life into a business.
Who knows what Ballmer is like on his days off. Probably he's still a dork. Probably business is still on his mind. But at the moment of this speech, he was talking about business. You might as well say, "To Microsoft, it's like making and selling software is all some kind of business.".
"In a way they started out bankrupt"
In the context of the speech, this makes sense - and I think it's clear what he was getting at.
Put through my idiot translator, it reads "We cannot eliminate this competition by depriving them of money from their business, as there never was any money in their business."
Eventually MS will fall - I think that's clear. Until then, I fully expect them to continue to try to compete. I'll still hassle them when they try to do so unfairly, but it seems a little immature to criticize them generally for talking about the competition and laying out strategies.
Let's not stir that bag of worms...
Linux is not like Novell, it isn't going to run out of money--it started off bankrupt, in a way.
Is he a comic book character? Real people don't talk like this...
We will beat Linux on clusters. We can't beat them on price, but we have to add value.
Imagine a Microsoft cluster of these?
With 3 front page post about MS in a day on /. it is easy to see that /. has already stomped on MS.
Karma stuck at 50? Add 2-5 inches.. err.. 2-5x Karmas Count to your pen1es.. err.. Karma all naturally and private
He should say "GNU/Linux", not "Linux". Really, man, the story was just posted.
Also look how hooked on MS marketing they are. Although Unix is more reliable, Redman said, NT may become more reliable with time. Personally, and for my tax dollars, I'd like to see the most reliable system available used, regardless of how reliable it may be in the future. It would keep people safer and probably would reduce the chances of our cruisers being crippled.
If not now, when?
This article states the simple truth. Linux does many things better than MS. MS cannot compete on price, or even on functionality, at this time. MS may be able to develop technologies to compete, but it's past method of undercutting the competition into bankruptcy will not work.
Given this set of facts, they are asking for help. And they will get it, beyond a few personal friends. A lot of people make a lot of money off MS products. MS products are designed to be simple enough and just reliable enough to be used in business and allow average people to administer and program them. All people who make money of MS and whose skills are not easily transferable to other technologies will fight hard to keep their income. It is a good strategy to create a grass roots effort. MS is trying to get a little time to catch up.
This reminds me of the American auto industry years ago. They built crap cars that Americans were forced to buy. A superior product was introduced, and instead of meeting the Compton head on, protectionist legislation was introduced to protect the American autoworker. Of course, the end result is that we know have reliable affordable cars, but a lot of auto workers and auto mechanics were put out of work on the way.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
Everytime you think Ballmer is a smart guy, just take a look at this clip
Mirrors of the same video are here
Oh I see ..
I'm the one thats fucking redundant!
Right - got ya.
---- "Logoff! That cookie shit makes me nervous!" - A. Soprano
Microsoft thinks that, with a few thousand "insiders" that know what's going on, they're going to "stomp Linux?" That's a knee slapper *proceeds to slap elbow*. While I don't have any exact numbers, I'm willing to bet that Linux has quite a bit more people behind it, whether it's mainstream or not.
/contrib folder? I haven't seen any in my travels...
The only thing MS can do to beat Linux is create a better product. And since their OS wasn't really designed with security in mind (it was designed to be used by the computer stupid masses, more or less), they'd litterally have to start from the ground up. *NIX style OSs have the jump on MS in many different areas, including 64bit architecture support, value for your buck (since Linux is free, it's a much better value, even if it lacks the major apps Windoze has), and even technical support (just scour the net, someone somewhere will be glad to help if they can).
Their "community" is bogus. Nothing more than just a bunch of higher-ups whom MS deems are suitable to be "in the know." The Linux community is just what it says it is. Regular people (not just higher-ups with keys to the executive bathroom) can take it upon themselves to learn what they want about it. And what makes up a community? Regular folks. Granted, it's regular folks with IQs higher than average and technical know-how, but regular folks all the same. From the geek in his/her parents' basement to Linus himself, and all points in between. Each, in some form or another, is welcome to take Linux apart and contribute whatever they want to it. With MS, the buck stops with Bill and company. When was the last time you saw a Windows CD that had a
Is it just me, or should Steve Ballmer be doing stand-up at wee-tiny coffee bars and little improv theaters? All his malarky is making me laugh, and that's about it...
Blog Prophyts - Right On, Man
ZDNet and CNet share stories. It's nothing new. Read the friggin' past two days' stories before you post something new, PLEASE.
I think the reason they don't make the high quality software we want them to is because it's too late. They have huge amounts of work in Windows, and a number of the problems are architectural rather than just bugs. To entirely fix windows, to the point where most /. users trust it, would require going back to square one. There is no way to justify that in a business like MS.
Science may someday discover what faith has always known.
#1 By BobSmith (1560 Posts) at 9/25/2002 6:26:09 AM
:)
:)
:)
"It's not like Novell, it isn't going to run out of money..."
Lol! Steve is great!
#2 By kelso (2 Posts) at 9/25/2002 7:42:12 AM
Hey, Bob. No one cares whether or not you think Ballmer is great.
Ya frickin sack.
It'd help if you'd opine constructively instead of simply quoting a lame quote and then adding on a 'LOL'.
Who the f*$k says LOL anymore?
Wait. I know.
A sack name BobSmith.
This post was edited by kelso on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 at 07:43.
#3 By JaggedFlame (1555 Posts) at 9/25/2002 7:50:51 AM
You know, by your own standards, your post's a steaming pile of crap, too. It'd help if you'd opine constructively instead of simply quoting someone else's text and then adding on a "no one cares". Technically, most people here would rather read BobSmith's posts than yours. [shrug]
#4 By beeyp (98 Posts) at 9/25/2002 8:02:13 AM
#3, well i don't belong in that 'most people'....if that makes sense
#5 By cschweda (16 Posts) at 9/25/2002 8:10:01 AM
I'd rather read Kelso's comments than BobSmith's.
If this "Kelso" is "KelsoLundeen", then, yes, I'd *much* rather read Kelso than Bob"TheSack"Smith.
#6 By Fritzly (249 Posts) at 9/25/2002 8:40:56 AM
#4 this is the sense: Bob highlighted and made a comment about a jocke made by Steve Ballmer; #2, the troll, just acted as a troll, adding nothing to this thread. Ergo I would rather read someone who makes a comment or state an opinion rather than someone who says nothing therefore waist my time.
#7 By Fritzly (249 Posts) at 9/25/2002 8:42:04 AM
#5 "Similis cum similibus".
#8 By cschweda (16 Posts) at 9/25/2002 8:50:02 AM
"Semper ubi sub ubi"
#9 By TechLarry (657 Posts) at 9/25/2002 8:58:37 AM
Don't worry #8. Speaking skills generally improve by age 9. You'll get there...
TL
#10 By sphbecker (49 Posts) at 9/25/2002 11:27:25 AM
#2, your personal insults are not welcome here. I thought that was a really funny quote and there is nothing wrong with laughing at it.
"It's not like Novell, it isn't going to run out of money..." = Microsoft admitting that they drove Novell out of the market. (not a bad thing in my opinion)
#11 By sodablue (2331 Posts) at 9/25/2002 11:51:16 AM
#2 - I'm curious, if you edited your post... what did it originally say?
#5 - HA! That's funny.
#8 - That makes no sense from a Latin grammar standpoint. I understand the joke, but the words are used incorrectly.
For my foreign language requirement I took Latin. Can't write very well, but I can translate into english with the help of my dictionary.
#12 By cschweda (16 Posts) at 9/25/2002 12:29:53 PM
#11: It's actually a pretty famous little Latin pun. ("Always wear under wear")
No, it's not grammatical. But for whatever reason it's one of the first things my Latin teacher at Umich taught us when we started our crash course in Wheelock. (All of Wheelock in six weeks -- and then Cicero 'De Amicitia'. Miserable semester.)
Anyway, this has absolutely nothing to with Ballmer. Although I did attened a TechNet a year ago where Ballmer put in a surprise appearance. He really is a pretty captivating speaker. A little shrill and annoying -- over-caffeinated maybe His head is a like cueball ashine from a beacon aimed from afar.
But we're sitting there -- expecting the usual MS developer rah-rah speak -- and in bounds Ballmer -- literally running up to the front of the stage: "Hey guys!"
I don't know. You see some of this stuff in person -- Ballmer, the MS developer goons doing their little cheerleader sessions -- and while you understand what's going on, you sometimes get the feeling that it's like a little cult.
Um, am I to take it the "stomp Linux" in quotes implies that Ballmer said this?
Because even though it's in the article headline, Ballmer is never QUOTED as saying it in the article. It is just the author's interpretation of what Ballmer said.
Ballmer gave a very calm, non-confrontation argument (pro-Microsoft, yes, but what did you expect?).
Come on, people would be up in arms if a Slashdot headline wrongfully said "FSF says 'fuck you' to those not using GNU/Linux".
If anyone needs me, I'll be tearing my hair out...
slashdot!=valid HTML
What community?
Where is Ballmer going to get a community?
Is he going to buy friends?
Maybe I shouldn't suggest this
Next year on college campuses world wide:
Pi Mu Microsoft
HallmarkOrnaments.Com
I fully intend to keep supporting linux in anyway I can. Of course I get paid to develop and expand windows tools but on my free time I do what I feel like.
Capitalism: unequal distribution of wealth
Socialism: equal distribution of poverty
We will beat Linux on clusters.
It should read:
We will beat Linux on cluster fucks.
Remember, Mr. Ballmer, Honesty is the Best Policy...
Follow these steps for shoddy journalism: (honestly, can someone please explain the difference between
- C|Net gives a title to an article about Ballmer that uses the word "stomp" as if Ballmer had said it. They don't quote him saying it.
- /. picks up the story (again) without reading it, and further butchers it by altering the title again and attributing a quote that's entirely fictitous but sounds really inflammatory and good, presenting it as fact.
- People who angrily point this out get modded -1, Panties In A Twist, and they disappear into the Troll Pits, and the site is run by those who remain and who don't give a fuck. Repeat from step 1.
Like the demise of Wired all those years ago, it's just really sad. This place used to be a great source of information. It's fallen a long, long way.-- http://frobnosticate.com
When Microsoft is destroyed by a might penguin, that we care oh so much about.
As opposed as this community is to Microsoft and closed source software (should be non-free software,) it seems to me that some interesting conclusions can be made as to the origins of open source software and Linux (GNU/Linux?) in particular.
:)
It strikes as an interesting idea that if it was not for the Microsoft predatory practices, their successful atempts to eliminate any competition in client side operating system software Linux could never become what it is today - a success.
If Microsoft did not behave in the way they did to all their OS competitors - DR-DOS, OS/2 and other commercial operating system developments, there would be a large number of these client focused operating systems out on the market by now, some of them could even be open source operating systems (like what Red Hat is today) but not necesserily.
In a market saturated with various OS vendors, the prices for the OS could not be too high, maybe 5-10 times smaller than what MS Windows costs. If the prices are low, the OS still remains a commodity but it is not critical for open source developers to build their own OS if they could just buy one that suits their needs for 10$.
Well, do you think I have a valid point here? Can Microsoft ever say to OS - "Luke, I am your father!"
You can't handle the truth.
The Linux Community, on the other hand, is a true community... with the work and benefits of each person available to all the others. Improving the final product is the goal, not protecting IP.
MS has shut themselves out of a true "community" by their very stance on source code. Expecting that same powerless community to work for them now is like expecting your new intern to head up a disaster recovery effort.
While these stats show that Apache web servers run about twice as many sites as Microsoft web servers, it certainly is not "a few guys". Try enough guys to support ~10M web servers.
This nearly made me laugh out loud. Not a good idea in a quiet, computer science room :)
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I think they meant the Article
Y2K Compliant since the late 1890s
that link is to a cluser of unix workstations vs
:)
a cluster of windows servers.
the unix workstations are not running on x86
hardware.
unix vendors ALWAYS screw their clients with
outrageous support contracts that don't really help.
The prices you quote also include a 3 YEAR support
package from both vendors.
almost all the cost of the unix solution is in
that support contract, not the os or the hardware.
Here's the quote from the FAQ:
Don't be silly.
From this FAQ [tpc.org] you'll see:
In general, TPC benchmarks are system-wide benchmarks, encompassing almost all cost dimensions of an entire system environment the user might purchase, including terminals, communications equipment, software (transaction monitors and database software), computer system or host, backup storage, and three years maintenance cost. Therefore, if the total system cost is $859,100 and the throughput is 1562 tpmC, the price/performance is derived by taking the price of the entire system ($859,100) divided by the performance (1562 tpmC), which equals $550 per tpmC.
Most people would focus on the hardware cost, but in reality the highlighted maintenance cost took the precedence.
Most midrange UNIX server has outragous maintenance cost. The maintenance cost of a UNIX server in the third year could be exceeding the cost of the hardware itself. It's due to the fact that older parts are difficult to find, thus make maintaining older servers more difficult. Besides, they really want to cut older production lines in favor of newer servers production.
x86 platform is known to have flat and lower maintenance cost, due to the low cost hardware and high compability with older hardware, i.e. older parts can be found easily. That's why Microsoft could easily beat the TPC pissing races.
I can set up a redhat advanced server cluster in 10 minutes or less, anyone that knows clusters finds Ballmers statement hilarious.
Got Code?
Of COURSE this guy thinks they are highly respected... after all he is one. On the other hand, I think that all lazy, unmotivated, and unskilled bums are highly regarded..
(I'll let you draw your own conclusion).
Turn s60 photos into awesome videos with mScrapbook for all S60 3rd edition phones!
There's barely $200,000 worth of price difference there. 10% of the total saved by using Linux. Worth it?
What kind of question is that?
um. yes. I would prefer to keep my extra $200,000 thank you.
"Linux is not like Novell, it isn't going to run out of money--it started off bankrupt, in a way.""
Did he mean fiscally bankrupt? As opposed to, um, someone else who is ethically and morally bankrupt?
Linux will never run out of money because they never had any to begin with... if linux can actualy move to the desktop, and off the server market,.. Plus gain application support enmase... then MS will definately have somthing to worry about... namely, a line of products with no bottom to hit.
The Code Ninja is swift with his tool, precise in his delivery, and deadly accurate in his execution.
but apparently the intent is the same.
(And don't worry, I stopped taking Ziff-Davis seriously when they implied that Win95 was technically superior to OS/2, but I digress.)
MS Developer's community may dwarf the size the size of the Open Source community - but the views of the communities are not the same. I'll guarentee that the Open Source community makes more code available to it's users for free than the MS Developer's community ever does.
I wish the man the best of luck. He is correct that he needs to keep his developer community happy so that they're writing code for Windows and not Linux.
But, as Netscape discovered, it's very difficult to compete with a product that free.
Heck, I'm sure that some people would be MORE than happy to get Word for Linux if it ever came out (well, unless Microsoft actually opens the source to the document format so AbiWord and OpenOffice aren't forced to lag behind by reverse-engineering).
Do you really need reason for beer? Wingman Brewers
Microsoft's business and development plan is dependant on having an overwhelming majority in it's market. They have built a full service software suite, from top to bottom. It works together, and as long as they own the market, they will win. No-one dares invest a fortune building something that compete's with MS's stuff, because it would be a waste of money. Hence, they own the 'environment', and there are no meaningful competitors.
But, with good quality, workable alternatives, Microsoft is shown up to be what it is. The New IBM. Remember the software IBM would bring out, and the reviews would say that it was good for an IBM shop, but others would be better to look elsewhere? Why? Because the ibm stuff interoperated with other ibm stuff, and poorly with anything outside. Familiar, yes? MS gets away with it since they have the majority of the market.
How much has linux affected MS' bottom line? I would suspect not that much. Why so much fuss?
There is now an alternative that runs on the same hdwr, same price or cheaper and getting better all the time. MS' whole plan is in jeopardy.
Derek
If you think anything short of an act of God is going to get congress to require big companies to pay dividends, you're nuts. Remember who does most of the lobbying, who has most of the money for campaigning; and then compare this list of entities to the list of those who would be most affected by this. They're a coextensive set, kid.
How can a kernel be bankrupt? It manages processes and devices, not money! If he doesn't know that then its no wonder Windows is where it is today.
Oh, maybe he meant the Linux distributors like RedHat, MandrakeSoft, etc. Now how are they bankrupt if they have money? I fail to understand this logic... MandrakeSoft may be having some financial problems, but they are improving, and they are not bankrupt.
And Microsoft doesn't have a community. They have a legion of idiot users who they continually rip off who don't realize who they are giving their money too. As sad as it is, stupid people are the ones who run the market. By being ignorant people give in to the evil they so hate.
There's my 2 cents. This is probably my last post for a while, as I am getting frustrated with Slashdot posting articles every time Ballmer opens his mouth. The guy can't piss without slashdot being there.
Hypocrisy is the 8th deadly sin.
Unite, and be used!
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
"It's not like Novell, it isn't going to run out of money..."
Steve almost has a clue. Linux has very little money, no central base to be attacked or bought, and it's massively distributed into residential basements and dark corners of IT departments.
This has to be Microsoft's worst nightmare -- an enemy that doesn't care about money or "winning" market share. An enemy that takes Microsoft's "clone and lowball" strategy and turns it back against them. Indeed, Linux is the Viet Cong of the internet.
I find it fascinating to watch Microsoft fumble and bumble with ineffective strategies against an enemy that they truly don't understand. When Microsoft decides to concede the OS battle and tries to take over the Linux desktop, then I'll be worried about the monopoly being perpetuated. They keep denying any intention of porting Office to Linux, so maybe it's Microsoft that will run out of money.
Right now I'm running Windows 2k, working through some bugs in a custom DCOM object. So I guess I'm a corporate sheep. In an hour or so I'll be working through some fortran code in unix. Then I'm a greasy peace loving hippy.
Although I agree about not subscribing to archtypes, you need to pick some better examples:
There is no way to underprice linux until they can't pay their devs and go BK
You mean, go to Burger King??
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Hilarious!
Ahh I see you are one of the religious right. Microsoft will crush you too :)
Fact is, while Micros~1 concentrates its efforts on Linux and open source, OS X is quietly improving and delivering a full-featured BSD with an irresistably cuddly UI. While any predictions about the death of M$ or the triumph of Apple are probably exaggerated, I can see M$'s obsessive focus on countering linux - an effort that is likely to do little to actually harm most linux-related businesses - will distract them from a task that is actually within the realm of their capability: waging a propaganda campaign to rival Apple's "switch" campaign. I know several computer-savvy former Windows users who now swear by OS X. I also know of a few organizations that rely on Windows + MS Office who are in no hurry to upgrade either for cost and learning curve reasons. If OS X improves without breaking the last release of Office for OS X, more organizations might see the wisdom in the switch. I don't foresee the "end" of Micros~1 as a result, but in terms of market- and mind-share this could help OS X in the long run. Which would be a good thing for open source, IMHO.
How embarassing for Microsoft, their CEO jumped around on stage like a monkey on angeldust and HURT HIS ANKLE afterwhich he limped breathelessly to the podium.
time for a review of your public image!
P.S.- I will never be able to listen to Gloria Estefan again (not that I would have before, but...)
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
You may wish to read up on the Beowulf project and better understand what it is:
http://www.beowulf.org/intro.html
Beowulf clusters are designed for doing parallel computations as may be done in a university research environment.
The kind of clusters that Microsoft is talking about is not for purposes of computation but rather for scalability and failover. Look more towards the history of the VAX Clustering solutions, also look for High Availability clustering solutions from Sun, HP, Oracle and so forth.
Microsoft is not going to be competing with Beowulf, they are going to be competing with the Linux-HA project.
http://linux-ha.org/
... if no one actually dissected the arguments Ballmer was making? I have a strong suspicion that he will be receiving an analysis of what gets said here, in order to find weaknesses in the GNU/Linux world to exploit. I'd rather we not give them the opportunity. I'd rather that "our" community not help "theirs" "get it."
Acts 17:28, "For in Him we live, and move, and have our being."
So go ahead and stomp MonkeyBoy, it's going to be as fun to watch as your MonkeyBoy Dance(see link below).
Stomp MonkeyBoy, Stomp
Microsoft is a company in a dire search for an air supply. Like a fish out of water flopping around. It's obvious from the fact that they said the "L" word in public yet again.
Lob
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
I'm kind of curious to see what happens in the long run. I mean, Windows just keeps getting worse and GNU/Linux keeps getting better. Windows becomes more and more invasive, though easier to use for end users. GNU/Linux is also getting way easier to use, but really can't ever be truly invasive due to the fact that thousands of people would find out and change it rather quickly.
While they do have the right idea, I don't think they'll be able to implement it too well. With they way everything they release has problems, I think that the open source option will be that much more bug-free, easier to implement, and efficient to use. This refers mostly to the "Windows on clusters" comment he made. I just don't think they will be able to generate the feeling of "community" that they would like to. When I hear Microsoft, I think of the monopoly, the invasion of privacy, the buggy products, and the frequent crashes and reboots. It's going to be a very very long time before MS can alter my views on their products. I think many others probably feel this way, and so the community will not expand as they wish it to. They could pay people, but those people won't necessarily have the same motivation that the open-source community does.
Is anyone else here like me, and upon reading about Ballmer's "MVP" initiative thought of the
MVP: Most Valuable Primate movies?
Ballmer being advised on Microsoft's technical strategy by a worldwide network of programmer chimps : it's more than just an amusing thought.
I keep seeing comments posted in regards to Microsoft not having a community, and quite honestly, they baffle me.
No, Microsoft doesn't have groups of users who all get together on the weekend and chat about how great Windows is, or what new features are coming up, or the next release of the Windows kernel. What Microsoft does have, however, is a very large base of software developers and resellers who are perfectly content selling or developing for Microsoft.
To be perfectly clear here, I work for a reseller who is in this exact situation. We get two types of people, generally. Those who wish to completely wash their hands of their network and hand it over to us, or those who want to be able to manage their network themselves. Typically a customer will either come to us with Microsoft in mind, or ask us which we prefer. We're not a Microsoft only shop, we do plenty of other work, but our recommendation is always Windows. Why?
Well, if we're managing their network, Windows makes more sense to us. More people know it, more of us can work on it, and 90% of the time a problem can be solved with a quick visit to Microsoft's TechNet. If we aren't managing it, we push Windows because it's the easiest for the client to administrate. Contrary to popular belief, for the most part Windows will run fine. You might have the occasional problem, but it's not enough to bother anybody. I'm not saying that it is superior to Linux, merely that it is adequate for most people.
A lot of the inroads we see Linux making comes from companies who have computer savvy people in control of their network. Unfortunately, we're not the most common people, which I think will limit how far Linux expands.
To the developer, Windows represents a massive pool of users to offer a product to. To the resellers, Windows represents a widely accepted product that is easy to support because of the amount of people familiar with it. If Linux is going to see massive progress in displacing Windows on any level, it needs to provide both developers and resellers with a compelling reason to switch.
I recall this once being said here on /.
Microsoft vs. Linux: Who will win?
Who cares? (Score:5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 02, @07:53AM (#3625912)
It seems to me that Linux and open source are classic disruptive technologies. In this case the technology is not the OS itself (anyone here who can't name a dozen OS's in one breath?) but the GPL, the development model, and the worldwide linking of motivated developers into a slightly-cohesive competing co-operating group.
The GPL has provided a framework whereby a self-sustaining body of software has come into being. The body of developers don't rely on traditional business models to sustain themselves.
If Linux and open source become at all successful Microsoft is going to lose billions of dollars in revenue. Heck, they probably already are. I'm suprised they haven't sent the boys around to break RMS' and Linus Torvalds' kneecaps or roll over them with a bus.
This is a 'company' or community MS can't fight using traditional business models. They can't lower their prices enough to beat free. Many of open source products are at least of equivalent quality to MS products.
They've tried running attack PR campaigns, but to some extent attacking open source is as hard as attacking any other community spirited organisation, such as (for example) the Scouts or Guides, and all the bad press has so far rebounded on MS, it's a bit transparent after all. And how do you effectively attack people who are giving things away for free? It's like trying to claim that "Meals on Wheels" volunteers are evil because the food they deliver sometimes isn't absolutely perfect.
As an aside, I was in the Science Museum in London a few years ago and I saw a gas-fire powered room fan. The idea was that when it got too hot in summer, you lit this gas-fired engine and it turned a fan to blow (now warmer) air around the room to cool you down. It was a last trump of the old monopoly gas companies trying to show their product was as versatile as the new-fangled electricity. It shows the lengths an old monopoly would go to, to try and preserve their old business model in the face of a disruptive technology.
So, in a possibly vain attempt to get back on topic... I'll be interested to hear what you have to say. Because I feel only one of a few possibilities can actually happen. One is that open source limps along as a permanent embarrassing cousin to shrink wrap proprietary software. The other is that it more or less displaces shrink wrap commercial software.
My money is on the latter, and for a simple reason. MS has sent many companies down the tube by the simple expedient of knowing that the other company will eventually make a mistake, and then they are dead. MS has made many mistakes too - but the synergy of owning the OS and some popular apps meant they've had the revenue to recover from them, whereas companies reliant on a single app only had to trip once and they were gone.
Now the tables are turned. Open source isn't going away. If it can survive and get to where it has now, on an insignificant market share and difficult to use products, it isn't going away now it has growing market share and great things like KDE3 and Moz and GNOME and open office and so on that stand up against MS' core products.
Now it's MS that has to avoid making mistakes.... In my view that classic mistake they are making is concentrating on their market share and revenue rather than the customers. Look at the PR and mindshare disaster that Licencing 6 has proven to be. Just goes to prove the old saying that once a monopoly finishes dealing with it's competitors, it starts beating up on its customers.
MS contains some of the greatest developers in the world under one roof, probably THE greatest number of developers working for a single company. The problem is that so much of their work seems to be directed towards a 'scam' - keeping MS on top and killing other companies, rather than just turning out great products. It's proven a very effective strategy so far, the issue is can it survive against a community who isn't playing the same game?
So what can you say to MS about open source in general? It'll either eat them or live alongside them. Either way, they lose. And it's as inevitable as what happened to the horse and cart when the automobile was invented, and nothing they do can really change how this game is going to play out economically. So they may as well ignore it and hope it'll go away.
I may be bad with names, but I'll never forget your IP address
Compare Balmer's talk with the new foreign policy Bush just gave congress.
With both you have a large seemingly unbeatable force with money to burn that believes it can outspend the competition to maintain a monopoly. This monopoly is widely loathed yet many people cherish the stability it brings. Meanwhile you have a DIY group of individuals who are trying to bring down said monopoly with ingenuity and far less funds.
Not that I think Linux hackers are terrorists IN ANY WAY, likewise I am not condoning terrorists either. I just find it interesting as a comparison.
Thoughts?
just = (My)Opinion.toCents();
Yeah cluster and Microsoft, except it isn't in clustering the servers. I believe its a millitary term.
If they're looking for freeware, then their playing less money to Microsoft. That means they have more money for their employees.
For instance, we sometimes need a diagramming tool. Not everyday, maybe once a week. Nothing fancy, just some org charts that need updating.
If I have a choice between spending over $200/fanny for Visio or using Dia for free... Well, I've just saved $1200 in just my office. Do the same thing with a couple other 'optional' programs and we're talking real money.
Why would I want to pay Ballmer and Bill when I'd rather pay that money to employees that can turn around and make me more money?
My father is a blogger.
honestly, can someone please explain the difference between /. and a $0.50 supermarket tabloid?
:)
Sure. The tabloid has better pictures!
Given problem X, the Linux admin will fiddle with some commands, adjust some settings, tweak some variables, and the problem is solved.
The Windows admin looks in a trade magazine about what products solve what, evaluates a bunch of them, picks one, and asks the boss for his/her credit card.
Now obviously if you were in the business of producing shrinkwrap software the Windows platform is the greatest invention ever.
But if you're using software to get real work done and don't want to put up with that kind of shit, Windows is out. It's just not acceptable. Linux is the direct result of an unfulfilled need, a tool that builders can use with total freedom. It is not merely the anticipation or the reduction of our collective needs to the common denominator. Linux would simply not exist if Microsoft made its customers happy. This isn't marketshare that's been stolen from Microsoft, it's the market that Microsoft lost all by itself.
Microsoft is dealing with an enemy created from their own oblivion, which exists in a dimension it cannot even perceive. Through their own ineptitude they created their demise. It is poetic, and it is just.
Popular hacker lore makes my signature more apropos:
We've been spoon-fed baby food when we hungered for steak... the bits of meat that you did let slip through were pre-chewed and tasteless.
Sure MicroSoft has lots of developers. However, many of these developers work for companies who are trying to make a profit. There are nondisclosure agreements and such. They can't post any really usefull code, they can't post code for peer review. They can't spend too much time answering questions and playing with pseudocode instead of producing results for their employer. We also have the advantage that we can choose to work on one or several projects. When we get burned out on one, we can work on a different project that is holding our interest. So how are they going to produce superior software due to MSDN support? The way I see it, MicroSoft has been working on Windows since the mid 80's, had dumped a lot of money into it, has hired the best money can buy. Yet in less than a decade Linux has almost caught up to it. I wish Microsoft good luck at leverging there community. They are going to need it....
vi +
They remain bankrupt, and if Mr. Ballmer's commentary is any indication, that bankruptcy is of intellect.
This sig no verb.
"We will beat Linux on clusters. We can't beat them on price, but we have to add value."
You mean THE Linux which is running on several thousands of machines in Google?
...they changed the headline, so that makes it all okay, right?
While this would be a very wise thing for them to do, I wonder if they trully realize that their tactics and strategies in the past are part of the problem. Developers being in the equation also includes the companies that sponser and employ them. Last November, MS commented about its current community that frankly was showing its true colors (meaning there was no loyalty or trust, but merely a wait and see attitude).
Personally, I think they have a LONG way to go in changing their business ethos, otherwise even the best layed plans will turn to crap after a short time (its like giving cars to monkeys, if they don't care or know how to upkeep them then while they will look more sophisticated and advanced to outward observers at first, it will soon become apparent that they were just not meant for devices like that).
When asked about Linux being a platform for MS products, Ballmer answered no. Ironically however, the reason stated in this article is about MS's "reluctance to accept legal liability for OpenSource Software." Does that mean that they have been accepting legal liability for other vendor's software, much less their own? I remember one time last year on the news there was a reporter doing a rundown of many of the "neglected" portions of the DoJ and friends' case(s) against MS. One of them was to establish an open door for end users and companies (especially small ones) who had lost significant amounts of money due to negligence on the part of MS. Have people been getting cash back or free support for MS created problems? (I don't want to start a debate here, most people know that no software is perfect so this assumption is based on that tenet)
Next we have,
Here I had to laugh... some more. This seems to be a window into Ballmer's and Microsoft's way of thinking about software and Operating Systems. IBM is not selling an operating system, they are selling hardware and an entire computing suite/environment. Can someone use RedHat instead of Suse? I think so. Can someone take advantage of the (arguably) more efficient, modular, secure and extensible nature of Linux to tailor it for their own needs? (including scaling BACK to make leaner systems) I believe that is one of the selling points. (I could be wrong, but I have seen a few ads that touted such things recently) I sincerely hope for Ballmer's and MS shareholder's sake that what he said was either quoted way out of context or is just fronting BS. What integration companies (and even just regular non-IT companies) have been moving to non-MS solutions for was to allow THEM to have the choice in the system (among other reasons of course). People don't really like to either be restricted in choices or be presented with only options that force payment for services unwanted and unrendered (I consider services rendered to mean it WORKS).What if, when you went to a grocery you were ONLY presented with "Value Packs" that they had very few differing combinations but all of them had about 70% of the same items between them (the Store Brand(tm)). You might not like the store brand. You may remember using some other brand that you liked and that the store no longer carries it (because it magically became "Incompatable" after the Grocery Store bought out one of the competitor's (of your favorite brand) factory. You may also get tired of finding that the food items are often spoiled, leaking, smashed etc yet in order to get assistance you are actually CHARGED by the Grocery Store. Then you hear about how other small grocery stores (or makers of particular grocery items) are strongarmed into going out of business, accepting only MS as a distributor, or being bought out. Hell, even the local farmers won't look you in the eye anymore because of their shame at being whipped.
Now would this work? Well it would if people were stupid, the vendors were spineless and short sighted and all around everyone was too busy making excuses and looking for Mighty Big Brother to once again tell them what to do, how to think, etc. (in other words, to save them from their own stupidity)
So, with this in mind... if the IT community (meaning end users, company procurement, developers, etc) let themselves be led into this once again then it will be real hard not to just let them rot in the jail they made for themselves. If MS is interested in technological solutions then they will HAVE to change their internal thinking about strategy and operational tactics. Or, they could just continue to focus more on marketing and litigation... however I doubt that solution will work for much longer. Some people are slowly waking up (sorta like the Matrix I guess...) and seeing the mess they let be made. Hmm, the big flaw in this is not 'the people' it is bureacrats. These empty headed monkeys will be the problem as ever before. They will blindly put foolishly to action, those things that can clearly be seen as harmful for long term capital. The business world has been riding on this forward wave of progress that if said progress shifts (to another market) or begins to depend on Process Improvement instead of raw technical prowess they will flounder and die. That will hurt a lot of people so I hope they will pull their collective heads out of their red-tape puckered arses soon.
I seek not only to follow in the footsteps of the men of old, I seek the things they sought.
they forget that a lot of the community
exists b/c of microsoft: Microsoft licensing, unfair tactics, and lack of innovation and transparency.
Sure the build a better desktop but they
build a crappy server. And even more so,
why do thing their way when you can do it
your way?
What's an NT server license cost with all the trimmings? Ca. $1200.
So you can build a cluster with Linux, or build a cluster with NT and watch half your money go to software cost.
Which is why NT will always be a loser for clusters.
There is strong evidence that many major corporations are moving away from Microsoft and towards. There are two basic reasons: (1) reliability, and (2) cost. Regarding (1) [reliability] I know of one very large French bank that moved to linux for all of its financial transactions. Their testing revealed too many security flaws in Microsoft products, and they "could not take the chance with Microsoft." Regarding (2) I know of a major Italian bank that is rolling out its *entire branch office network* using open source. Their move was in response to raised prices in Microsoft licensing. They tested, prototyped, and found out that "Yes, open source really works. Yes, even for the desktops and office workers." In North America I know if a large logistics company (can't mention name) that switched to Linux in all of its offices. They didn't have any bias against Microsoft, but they just couldn't take the downtime in their business. I also know of a large automobile manufacturing company that switched to Linux on Dell boxes to serve up all of its parts and other manuals in all dealers throughout North America. The reason was because of reliability, cost, and complexity. They found Linux far easier to implement. Finally, I've talked with a very large pharmaceutical company. They are involved in building a new global research center. They are going to use only Linux clusters for their drug discovery ("NME New Molecular Entity") research. Not Microsoft. So what can we conclude? There is some movement towards Linux on the part of many CIO's. There is nothing like a frozen IT budget and lots of financial pressure to get people thinking about Linux. Times are really bad in many industries now, and those licensing fees are looking larger and larger.
And I've done pretty well at it.
You might be wondering, gentle slashdot readers, why you care. Well, you probably won't ever care, after all, what's one minion out of thousands, but you might be interested to see things from inside the Borg, as it were.
First of all, don't ever ever ever underestimate Microsoft. These people are very good at what they do. I can hear the slashdot protests now, "no, they suck at what they do!". Au contraire my gentle friends. Microsoft's raison d'etre is not to produce good software. It is to produce a return on investment. And they have done very well. One can make the argument that MS is the most successful financial enterprise ever to exist.
I believe I am one of the people that Mr. Ballmer would like to enlist in the battle to destroy Linux. Unfortunately, I like choice. I run Linux (and Windows 2000/XP) at home. I use Perl on NT/2000. I like command-line tools. I don't like administration by mouse.
I don't see that MS will be successful in destroying Linux. I want them to try, though, because MS is at it's best with competition, and there isn't a whole lot of that around in many arenas right now.
At any time, if you find yourself thinking, "Oh, MS is doomed because of X-Y-Z", or "oh, MS is so stupid, because of X-Y-Z", check your assumptions, over and over." They have 50 gigabucks in the bank. They have a revenue stream that pumps out a gigabuck a month. They have 50,000 employees who are, by-and-large, very smart, and very dedicated. They have a some very good management. They are very good at recognizing and abandoning without hesitation or remorse unwinning strategies. But most of all, they have a company culture that never rests once threatened.
Original poster: "Ballmer is too devout a capitalist to understand things that aren't businesses. You can't bankrupt a social movement." (Note he didn't even say "Linux")
Reply, desperately looking for a cause: "Linux isn't a social movement. Waaaaah, don't stereotype me based on what OS I run." (Onlookers: "WTF is he talking about?")
Me: "Linux is definitely part of a social movement. And drop the persecution complex."
You: "Technically, Linux is an OS and Open Source is the social movement." (Onlookers: "WTF does that have to do with anything?)
"Linux is not like Novell, it isn't going to run out of money--it started off bankrupt, in a way."
Did he mean fiscally bankrupt? As opposed to, um, someone else who is ethically and morally bankrupt?
Linux:
Total assets: $0.00
Total liabilities: $0.00
Good will: $3,200,000,000.00
Doesn't look "bankrupt" to me, either fiscally or morally.
just got back from the job fair at school. as always MS was there. i tried to get the toy from microsoft. another girl from mcgill was there. i was just there to
get the toy but felt bad for just going there to ask. so i had to pretend
that i wanted to work for them. ended up dropping my resume. she asked me,
"why microsoft". i couldnt think of an answer. i ended up saying something
stupid like "because you guys have so much market share in OS, that you
have all the power to...." then i knew i said the wrong stuff haha.
i'm too honest. unfortunately they ran out of toys. and i lost one resume.
my blog
Perhaps Bill and Monkey-boy have realized that they can't take on Java after all.
What kind of community effort would they really provide? Look at the JCP and what is happening there. Developers, when they find bugs and provide code fixes to the JDK, are actually seeing their changes in future JDK releases ! How many developers using Microsoft products can make *that* claim?
So, take on Linux where the *same claims* can be made with respect to fixes to the OS, but perhaps are a bit more obscure to find since the Linux Community Process (sm) is really in fact Linus himself... (Hint: Linus.. let GO of the kernel.. put stewards on it with you in charge of *them*).
Again, more FUD from the Dud....
Polymorphism -- It's what you make of it.
I duno, but I'd certainly rather be bankrupt than run around waving my arms like a chicken screaming "give it to me!" in front of a large group of people. But that's just me. I'd say Ballmers went bankrupt and his dance skills were confiscated by the bank.
replacing it with NEW Folger's Crystals! (lets see if they notice the difference)
Except I'm in my doorm room and my roommate's taking a quick nap.
Total profits: $0.00
"Yes, so we've accepted the nuclear weapons development contract. We need to ship in a month, so we need the testing cluster up tomorrow. You've got tonight to purchase and set up a 300 node cluster."
May we never see th
True, there is an unbelievably large number of developers, as you will see by participating in MS developer forums etc. But one main problem I have is this, I have MCP qualification, and my employers are MS vendors/partners but when I go home from work and feel the need to be creative, what can I do ? I am not going to pirate a MS development product worth many thousands of dollars, and I sure as hell cant afford to purchase it for my employers benefit, so I dont ponder work-related problems and work on solutions at home (or produce my own products to inflict on Windows users for that matter).
What I can do, is fire up my trusty KDE desktop, load up KDevelop or a host of other development environments where, wouldn't you know it, I can search out and apply a mind numbing array of support libraries, documentation and existing source code. I suspect the MS vendor/developer community is probably divided quite clearly between those huge enterprises that dont mind at all sending off truckloads of cash every time they need to upgrade their development tools etc, and those that feel the pinch and try to get by with what they can. You certainly dont get huge amounts of support from MS, and dont get to feel 'part of the community' without paying up in a big way first.
LesF
If I had a DeLorean... I would probably only drive it from time to time.
seriously, Microsoft has enough resources to decide to *pay* 1000 people for 5 years to come up with something great, secure, smart, whatever. And just because they would work for Microsoft, it doesn't mean that they are incapable to work or that they are just dumb ignorants. People are people.
...you sure?
The point is: if the GNU/Linux and free software movement want to avoid a monopoly to take place, then new utilities, new standards and new concepts need to be invented. We need to use our resources, our mind, to *create*. The day that that community will stop chasing Microsoft because GNU/Linux and free software standards are *BETTER* than Microsoft's, then we will have improvement.
Microsoft philosophy is "embrace and extend".. and this leaves little space for new ideas developed for business reasons - sooner or later they'll show up with a paycheck and buy your company, your software, your ideas. They can.
But they have a weak point: they are slaves of their own power. They cannot just stop everything and fix their mistakes. They need to sell more software to get more money to pay for the marketing/ads/media/White House financing/whatever. They are basically being eaten by their own stomach. No longer is to sell good and for-everyone software their goal. Now they have to sell - period. No matter what, no matter how, no matter the way to get their 'competitors' out of the way.
Once they were the savers from IBM's monopoly. Now IBM is our "hero".. but the improvement of the Free Software community is their not-for-money-alone philosophy. This will break the cycle of monopolists that succeed every few years.
Right now 'we' (the free software community) are just trying to stay compatible with them - and this lets them having the steering wheel hold tight.
Think about samba, openoffice that "can read and write microsoft word documents", instant messaging clients, file servers, authentication, protocols, and so on. Sure they are excellent applications. And I know that the concepts are standards, the protocols are well-defined, the files format is well-known.
Unfortunately, right now the trend in the GNU/Linux and free software community is just to be as compatible as possible with them. And this is *NOT* the way to go. It is ok as long as we just want to be number #2 or as long as they are harmless (like they were until now), but it is not ok when they can dictate the rules.
Now, Microsoft's position as a monopoly gives them the "right" to do whatever they can to "outsmart" or plain wipe out the independent software community. Palladium, the licensing of Windows, whatever else they'll come up with - all that is a sign of what is the new trend.
Microsoft doesn't consider the free software community as "kids" anymore. They understood that there is smart people in there. They understand that this will cause troubles to them if they don't act soon.
For example, how long will pass before they'll give software houses that develop software for Microsoft Windows draconian restrictions, for example the request to hire people that don't write "free software" even in their spare time? Scary? Impossible?
I fear that they'll soon try to crack down on the people that write free software. Those people need to eat and live. Few of them can sustain themselves with their free software - but they do it for fun, and maybe have a regular job as a closed source programmer. What happens when their private life will be threatened (like getting fired) by the fact that they contribute to the Free Software community?
Back on topic, I was digressing - sorry.
The point, again, is that the Free Software community needs to unite and join resources to come up with new ideas that are superior to those that circulate right now - and are monopolyzed by Microsoft.
Just an idea: do you know Microsoft Visio? It's an excellent software. Nothing _free_ like it is as powerful as Visio. Creating something like that would mean chase their standard, at the beginning. But, what then? Go on - create something like that and make it more useful. Join it with a web framework, design a new kind of office environment where the PCs have no hard disk but a flash ROM with linux on it, and all the rest is loaded from a central server. Make the spare CPU cycles and RAM in every idle PC act as a single, parallel-processing machine a-la-MOSIX (yes OpenMOSIX cannot share ram, it was just an example).
Then sell it. Sell assistance. Follow the GNU license, give the source code away. Teach it to young people. Create a no-profit and donate the spare money to free- software houses. Show how your idea IS superior and gives better performaces/value/whatever. It will take time, surely - better start as soon as possible.
Ok it may be a bad, naive idea, I do not even call myself a programmer. But I'm learning it. And I'm learning it for free (as education should be) thanks to the Free Software community.
This is - for now - my contribution.
Thanks to all the Free Software coders that helped my learning progress.
[and sorry for the over-long comment]
-- There are two kind of sysadmins: Paranoids and Losers. (adapted from D. Bach)
Could it be possible that Ballmer is related to Sloth from the Goonies? By looking at him I would say yes, but he is too evil to be related to Sloth I think.
This post will be modded down for no particular reason by a sweaty 14 year old who is not allowed out past dark.
I see this shit on slashdot. "I hate Microsoft because they want to be number one and do away with GNU/Linux." crap. This is basically what business is all about. You eliminate the competition and you win teh prize. There isn't anything else to really understand. I'm just getting sick of these articles posted on here. Wasn't the last one, about the same damn thing 2 days ago.. same person?
What I don't understand is all of this crap about how M$ is going to Stomp GNU/Linux (thanks for the clarification, RMS). I really don't understand how M$ can stop all development of anything that doesn't belong to them, or any company.
The only way that Ballmer & Friends could stop the Linux kernel from maturing is by taking out the source of the code, mainly the pool of OS developers. Can M$ do this? I imagine that even some dudes that work for M$ work with OS products, or develop and release them. M$ can not legally control one's hobby.
I find it amazing that M$ thinks that there's a competition here. There are companies that have dedicated themselves to the development of OS products, and to the support of them. These are our beloved Mandrake and RedHat, Suse and U.L friends. Those companies may run out of money some day, or be bought by M$. Does that mean that GNU/Linux is dead?
When M$ talks about stomping Linux, I become worried for my own safety, since I would consider myself a part of the OS community.
You need to restart your computer. Hold down the Power button for several seconds or press the Restart button.
Fine, an OS is just an OS . . . to YOU. To many other people it is their chance to rise above the oppression of an unfair world (sadly many are too ignorant to understand this, while others are just too narrow minded).
Maybe after you finish with your Fortran, you might do something new . . . crack your door open to blinding sunlight and take a stroll down one of the poor neighborhoods in your area (they do exist, even if you have never seen one ). Then you might ponder how you, a mere programmer, might contribute to their betterment.
Sdelat' Ameriku velikoy Snova!
To whomever moderated me down as "redundant":
Do you understand the word "redundant"? DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE WORD MEANS??!?!?!???
Redundant means that it's been posted before. There are posts about the comment that linux started off bankrupt, but none of them share the same ideas as mine. Therefore, my comment is unique, not redundant.
IF YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT I HAVE TO SAY, AT LEAST MODERATE IT INTELLIGENTLY!!!!!! Mod me down as a troll, falmebait, overrated, or off-topic. To mod me down with the wrong attribute shows your lack of understanding for the moderation system. It also shows me that you have no business moderating posts on Slashdot, if you don't even know what the term means.
If you don't like my comment, that's fine. I used humor to express my opinion that MS in morally bankrupt. If you don't agree with that opinion, don't just wildly moderate me down. That shows that you just don't like what I have to say, and can't think of a real reason why. If that's the case, just leave it alone. Someone with a real opinion either positive or negative will moderate me appropritely. By moderating me as redundant when it's the only post of its kind makes me think you're too stupid to be given moderator priveledges.
There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
:wq
I like this comment as well.
Technology like clustering would be better in Windows than Linux eventually, said Ballmer: "We will beat Linux on clusters. We can't beat them on price, but we have to add value." Please notice the future tense!
Now I can show this to the people that keep asking me to install clustering on NT. Thanks Steve.
You say that I'm a dreamer.
But my heart's of gold.
I had to run away hide.
So I wouldn't come home low.
My heart's like an open book.
For the whole world to read.
Sometimes nothing.
Keeps me together at the seams.
<IGNITE_LIGHTER>
I'm on my way.
I'm on my waay.
Home sweet home.
Tonight.
Tonight.
I'm on my way.
Just let me be.
Home sweet home.
</IGNITE_LIGHTER>
I just want to say that my job is to support Microsoft server products. In fact, we use little else. And we don't use any Linux, BUT I HATE MICROSOFT. I hate the company. They are predatory, anti-competitive and they release too many crappy products too quickly. Microsoft Office is nothing more than proprietary file formats. I hope against hope that a standard XML file format becomes accepted, so I can dump Office once and for all.
However, I can separate my feelings for the company from my feelings for their products. Some of their products (Exchange, SQL Server, Windows 2000) are excellent. Doesn't change the fact that I can't stand the company.
. . . intellectual property rights? What kind of legal havoc are they going to have to wrangle to make this actually happen? I know my company would NOT share any development code with a competitor who is also a MS MVP.
Imagine is Microsoft did start to sell Word and
PowerPoint and the rest for Linux os.
They could probably port all of it with the help of wine,
cygwin, and their MS staff of developers, etc. in
a relatively short amount of time.
What would that do to the momentum of the various
projects? A lot of the projects seem to thrive off
the anti-microsoft "let's make a better version of
excell" type of enthusiasm. But if you could just
go buy a copy of excel and run it on linux, a lot
of people would.
Those microsoft apps would pretty much round out the rest
of the linux as corporate desktop issues. So, a
large flood of inexpensive desktop machines would
be built for offices. They would probably all buy
a copy of MS office over any staroffice/openoffice
free download just on the MS name.
I guess what I'm thinking here is that ms apps for
linux sounds stupid at first, but it might actually
be a powerful approach for MS to use -- even though
it seems like the opposite of what they would want to do.
I *have* bought commercial software on Linux: Visual Age for Java Professional 3.0 (and would have bought 3.5 if IBM had made it available), Quake for Linux, and three or four boxed distros.
On the other hand, my Windows ME box at home is totally dedicated to converting my video collection to VCDs and I didn't buy any of that software. Some of it (Virtual Dub, Huffyuv codec, various video filters, Video CD burning software) is even Open Source or Free Software. If I thought that there was better software out there for this purpose I'd buy it. The *time* I devote to this project is worth that much. Turns out the free stuff is the best available.
If they stomped BSD, then where could they get code from?
Duhh, they'll just keep copying the code of independent open source high school graduates which they get by reading their monitors via the secret cameras they have installed in everyone's house. Then the programmer dies in a freak accident/hate crime so he can't dispute the origin of the code.
Geez, I guess some people just don't pay attention to what their television tells them anymore...
Sometimes the best solution to morale problems is just to fire all the unhappy people.
I have used Visual Studio sir, and I have used {Emacs/VI}. Visual Studio is no {Emacs/vi}.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
for m$ is to say that linux is just like terrorist organizations: they do not have a central base and can operate indepently of central management or leadership. they undermine the establishment, etc, etc, etc.
that would be quite interesting to see him try, just to get americans to side with him based on that FUD
BSD is for people who love UNIX. Linux is for those who hate Microsoft.
If this is the best the pro-MS crowd can do, then MS really is in a lot of trouble!
A selection of topics that look like what an intern at MS's own PR department would pick, most of the fora empty, & the few fora that have any comments
degenerate within 15 minutes into Linux vs. Windows flamefest.
Someone even thought a car accident one month ago was worth an article on this site. It took me some digging (the way they link to stories suck) to confirm what I suspected: Heikki Kanerva, one of the victims in this accident, was an employee at MS. In other words, a story so poorly written a reader really had to work at to care about it.
There *HAS* to be a better pro-MS discussion forum somewhere. Any suggestions?
Geoff
I think I see a trend here. Maybe for them it really would be easier to muzzle the entire internet than to produce p
Yeah, SuSE and Redhat are totally nonprofit organisations.
Dick.
"Who do you want to beg for handouts today?" - SuSE
This one's for Ballmer....
Guess this is where you got your inspiration from, Bill !!
Did he mean fiscally bankrupt? As opposed to, um, someone else who is ethically and morally bankrupt?
I'd rather invest my money in a company with fiscal assets than one with moral and ethical ones.
With goodwill of $3,200,000,000 and $4 you can get a cup of coffee at Starbucks.
I'd rather invest my money in a company with fiscal assets than one with moral and ethical ones.
I doubt you'd get any of the former Enron employees to agree with you - or any of the investors, for that matter.
At the local MEGA-Bookstore I've noticed the influx of ".NET" books. Microsoft is now trying to emulate the "Open Source" community by pumping out books on ".NET". The only problem it seems is that the books aren't selling, in fact the employees have been having to dust them. Since they are black, they show dirt much worse than other colors like Red or Yellow.
Microsoft just doesn't get it. We are their Ex-Users. In fact I still have a GUI C programming for Windows 3.1 around here somewhere.
We don't want to establish a community around Microsoft's "lock-you-in" and "keep-you-down-and-patching" proprietary strategy.
We are looking for the way out, and while "Open Source" isn't perfect, it sure is a breath of Fresh air.
Note to "Monkey-Boy" Ballmer: "Prepare for the fight of your life. Sure you are fat with cash now, but it won't last forever!"
Where do I begin?
so we need to justify our posture and pricing.
I'm guessing that MS is going to justify there pricing and secure their posture by pushing DRM. (Another good DRM site, here)
He acknowledged there was more to Linux than free software--the main benefit of the open-source movement was the community developing software and sharing ideas. "Linux is not about free software, it is about community,"
Absolutely correct. Those who actually use the product get input into its future. Unlike most commercial software, where users are force fed a marketing department's idea of what is or isn't important.
Ballmer hits on an important issue: the Linux community. Here is a group of people that are as diverse as you can possibly get, yet share a single OS and philosophy. But, Ballmer completely misses the ideal behind community.
For nine years, the company has designated users with particular skills--usually seen by how often they intervene helpfully in newsgroups--as "most valued professionals". Currently there are about 1,200 MVPs, half of whom are in the United States.
The title is highly regarded, said Thomas Lee, a Windows 2000 MVP who specializes in directory issues, and has just been appointed as chief technologist at QA Training. "You are recognized by your peers, not by an exam that you can cheat in."
MS believes that they can create their own community, when in fact they will only succeed in alienating more people with their elitist attitude and the MVP award.
Linux cluster usually refers to a Beowolf cluster. A system of computers all working on basically one problem.
Windows cluster is usually a few systems set up to ensure redundancy so that when one system fails the others can pick up the slack.
There is a huge difference in priorities and cost for these systems. Microsoft will NEVER match linux when it comes to a Beowolf type cluster. NEVER. Either in cost, stability, or quality.
As for a cluster set up to provide redundancy, I am not so sure since I have not done much with those kinds of clusters. But the cost alone for a windows cluster is absolutely stupendous, especially when you take into consideration that Microsoft wants to count PROCESSORS in the license. ouch can you say ouch.
If Micro$oft is really going to do what it says the Linux community should do the same.
Remember Bill Gates is evil
I'd rather invest my money in a company with fiscal assets than one with moral and ethical ones.
I know someone with 10,000 WorldCom stock they'd sell you cheap.
"Our products just aren't engineered for security,"
-Brian Valentine,VP in charge of MS Windows Development
Did he mean fiscally bankrupt? As opposed to, um, someone else who is ethically and morally bankrupt?
If most people behave ethically, a minority can benefit from unethical behaviour. If more people start to behave unethical, everybody looses, beacuse the community looses as a whole and this compensates for the gains unethical people have.
Anyway, if it where not for gaming, I would be entirerly MS free by now. A toy OS for use as a toy. Only MacOS is shinier as a toy and is far more than a toy and Linux, while not shiny, is not a toy at all....
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted and ignored otherwise.
Dear Sir,
I am writing you in the hope of offering my services as your personal Pet Troll. Your responsibilities would include posting the same drivel that have posted here and I would follow along after you and write up pithy comments concerning how lame you are. If you are interested please reply to this post.
Pet-Troll Inc.
Try this on for size. As a top Scientologist I get millions a year from my loving members.
Did anyone else notice how much Steve Ballmer looks like Zippy The Pinhead? You know, I've never seen the two together. Could it be that Ballmer is Zippy The Pinhead?
The Uncoveror: It's the real news.
So now he wants the whole community up on stage doin' the monkey boy stomp.
(I'd link to the mpeg but who doesn't have the whole clip permanently stamped on his mind. If only I could erase it)
"She's a West Texas girl, just like me" - G.W Bush Iraqis
They are MS's way of killing Linux
http://pornolize.com/cgi-bin/pornolize2/pornolize2 .cgi?lang=en&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.com.com%2F2100- 1001-959165.html&submit2=submit
But we live in the world of business. Muscle techniques bring a larger market share. Quality can be thrown to the wayside if your campaign is catchy. The questions I pose to this forum:
1) Are we (the tech crowd) to blame for Microsoft's newest attack-strategy?
2) How can we stop it?
3) Should we?
the company will use its community of professionals to outsmart the open-source movement
babelfish say: well, part of it is true.
We cannot price at zero, so we need to justify our posture and pricing.
bablefish say: you *do* admire the emperor's new clothes, *don't* you
Linux is not about free software, it is about community
babelfish say: There are many eyes and we are being watched.
Technology like clustering would be better in Windows than Linux eventually, said Ballmer
babelfish say: our clusters suck!
The MVP initiative will be a big part of Microsoft's efforts to promote a sense of "community"
babelfish say: no need to keep it real
"There are many ways to be more open, and we are reviewing ideas."
babelfish say: we are using focus groups
For nine years, the company has designated users with particular skills--usually seen by how often they intervene helpfully in newsgroups
babelfish say: George Orwell wrote our MVP program
"You are recognized by your peers, not by an exam that you can cheat in."
babelfish say: everyone who isn't an MVP, is a liar or a cheater
"The hacker waits till a fix is posted, then writes an attack and sends it out," he said. Such attacks are based on information in the fix. The answer is to make sure that fixes are easier to distribute and implement so the user base is up to date, he said.
babelfish say: We don't suck, *really*, and um, *that's* what the EULA stink was all about
Asked by one lateral-thinking MVP whether Microsoft planned to offer applications software on Linux, Ballmer said no, adding that the big issue was a reluctance to accept legal liability for open-source software.
babelfish say: So Microsoft (and it's MVP's *wink*) can't be legally responsible for Linux or software running on Linux. err, uh, which pill did you take?
That is all for your programming today, now away to your newsgroups.
babelfish say: he didn't say that
M$ has a community?
There is no closed source on servers and certain no closed source on mainframes.
At, on average, $299/line of COBOL or SQL you damn well want to get the source because you have to recompile in into your production environment. You have to be able to do a complete software metrics exrcise to do capacity planning and can insure that you meet you SLAs (Service Level Agreeements.)
Closed source is only for unimportant crap.
It didn't exist before Li'l Billy whined in Byte Magazine that he was getting ripped off and after ripping US off for billions and billions, its coming to an end.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
It also syncs with LDAP.
I was looking for a site like this, this site is very good. Thanks again!
Ballmer if your reading this (unlikely) I'm switching to Linux on Monday. Woohoo no more M$ on my desktop. Former Windoze user
I disagree,
Linux is the shiniest toy of all. Its like the cardboard box at christmas that the children have the most fun with, because it has endless possibilities if you use your imagination.
The same article was posted yesterday in this very same place, Slashdot under the Title "Ballmer: MS will outsmar Linux" or something like that.
Please, post something thats new.
PENAROL: Seras eterno como el tiempo y floreceras en cada primavera.
This is a perfect example of the phrase "His bark is worse than his bite".
Find a job you like and you will never work a day in your life.
Ah, but the main reason that MS Apps won out in the Windows world was that MS also developed the OS.
Now, you may believe that MS manipulated the APIs to make sure that their packages worked more reliably, faster etc than competing ones. (Yeah, right!)
Or you might think people just flocked to MS Office because of a perception that it would work better because of the connection. (Sounds likely to me; I've seen IT decisions made for that exact reason.)
Either way, MS loses their advantage if they port their apps to GNU/Linux. They would actually have to compete on quality and/or price.
The tragedy is, they would probably have a fair chance of doing so. MS employ a hell of a lot of great coders, who could probably get MS Office to work at least as well as the Mac version on GNU/Linux. But MS aren't interested in making small amounts of money; they can't afford it.
MS as a corporation has grown so large that their duty to their shareholders far outweighs any other motivations. They have to keep striving for the monopoly profits.
Politas
Ummm... simple props and imagination are undeniably very cool, but if you ever had an xmas as a kid where the cardboard box was honestly the best thing you got, either your family was really impoverished or Santa hated your fucking guts. Seriously, when you were a kid would you rather have had a cardboard box or a Playstation?
Heh. With his bald head and all, Ballmer already LOOKS like one of those TV "pro" wrestlers.
Ever watched one of those shows? (Yeah, I'll admit it... I was REALLY drunk one night....) Before the "fight" they're all yelling into the camera, "You better look out! I'm gonna stomp you all over the floor" and it goes on and on.
So now Ballmer is starting to sound like a "pro" wrestler as well as look like one. Next thing you know he'll be running for Governor somewhere....
In times of universal deceit, telling the truth gets you modded -1 Troll
Enclosed, careful descriptions of how Microsoft is (1) going bankrupt; and (2) ripping everyone off in the process; and (3) effectively stealing from every US taxpayer; and (4) thereby destabilisiing the whole economy. Who needs terrorists?
t ml and Microsoft Collapses AOL Part II - FTC Inquiry Requested
...and so on, ad nauseum, plenty more waiting to be read...
Proposed HP Merger: Institutional Shareholder Services (ISS) Found Not Independent and along with Barclays plays key Role in Microsoft Pyramid Scheme
Inside Story on Microsoft and Enron
Senate Proposal Could Cost Microsoft Billions
Microsoft Circles of Influence and Enron's Collapse
http://www.billparish.com/20010404americaonline.h
Buybacks Backfire, Microsoft Loses $8.4B Speculating on Own Stock
Microsoft Scheme Costs Seattle Its Largest Employer, Boeing
"How Cisco Systems and Microsoft Avoid Tax"
Microsoft Financial Pyramid Summary and Microsoft Financial Pyramid Summary Updated
How Microsoft Pays No Federal Income Tax on Current Income
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Heheh, nice site, it's like a mirror-image of slashdot, albeit much smaller. This is one of the first posts my eyes fell on:
#2 By donpacman (56 Posts) at 9/26/2002 2:58:29 AM At least it's not Linux.
Never on my machine.
Pay less get less
---
"The chances of a demonic possession spreading are remote -- relax."
Ummm Playstation2 runs Linux. So what is your point?
Adults are obsolete children. - Dr. Seuss
Lets see... who all think that pov is an underpaid M$ employee, who is also forced to have a hotmail address!!!
--gera.
-- All true wisdom is found on T-shirts.
"But MS aren't interested in making small amounts of money; they can't afford it."
They can't afford to do it now, but they can definitely afford it when the competition raises the stakes. If the emulator people (Wine + Crossover Office) have a major breakthrough, then Office runs with Linux whether M$ likes it or not.
Microsoft won't spend their own money for the privilege of throwing away the OS business. But when the competition ports Office anyway, it's a different decision: (1) Lose BOTH the OS and the desktop, or (2) Cut their losses on the OS and defend the desktop. I'm sure Microsoft would like to get $200 per seat for a Linux upgrade, as opposed to getting $0 when people buy Crossover Office and keep their MS Office version.
In ancient times, Digital Equipment had the opportunity to port their OS and hundreds of software products to the x86 platform. They ignored the opportunity because it would have killed their hardware revenue stream, and it would place them in price competition with the low-priced Microsoft offerings. The x86 commodity market was built around DOS and Windows because none of the heavy hitters in the OS business wanted to touch the price point of DOS/Windows. They couldn't afford to. After a while, these same heavy hitters couldn't afford to do anything at all, except build their own x86 boxes and resell Microsoft's OS.
There will always be certain things that you can't afford to do, but a little competition changes everything.
well dipshit, when *I* was a kid, there wasn't anything like a playstation. And, yes, once the 'ooo-shiny' wore off, the box and my imagination (and something missing in recent kids) could provide hours of fun.
Most development is carried out internally by companies solving particular problems.
Where I work Perl, C++, C and many others are used (normally to run aplications served by Apache).
So loads of OS around and loads of programmers here.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Given IBM's patent portfolio, support for Linux, and disdain for Microsoft, I think any Microsoft patent-based action against Linux would result in a counter-offensive launched by IBM.
Think about it. Who has more patents, M$ or IBM? Anyone who can prove patent infringement against Microsoft would hit the proverbial jackpot because of the hundreds of millions of infringing software installations.
Besides, how does anyone sue Linux? Where is Linux? Who is Linux? What if the author of the allegedly infringing code is from a country that does not recognize software patents? What if the defendant's contact information is nothing more than a Hotmail spam trap?
If Microsoft get's obnoxious with patents, it will become initiate World War III among all the software patent holders.
And I'll be there to point and laugh when your investment fails.
If you had invested in something that didn't exploit others though I might care and give you a helping hand. I know people like you who took sleazy jobs with spammers writing the first address gathering tools. Nobody talks to them, nobody mentions neat job openings to them. They got a fairly large short term gain but they blew their credibility to hell by selling everyone else down the river.
So buy your dirty stock, but if it doesn't make enough for you to live happily on you've screwing yourself if anyone finds out.
JonKatz's fabricated "letter from Afghanistan." The "fictitous but inflammatory" misquotations of well-known figures. Bitchslap script investigations. Troll wars. Frequent story double-posts. (Well, maybe not that last one, that's just annoying.) Point being, we enjoy picking these things apart in the discussions, and that keeps us coming back. Increases the page-views, thereby increasing the ad-views, and revenue goes up.
Slashdot isn't about news, it's about entertainment. It's the internal politics that keep the regulars regular. I just can't help but wonder sometimes if that's not somehow intentional (I mean, what other explanation could there possibly be for JonKatz still being on staff?)
Now, if this gets modded down, it's because of an editor conspiracy. Tell the people!
- SMJ - (It's not just a name: it's a bad aftertaste.)
Ofcourse redundant windows clusters are expensive.
Once you`ve been locked into a windows solution, you encounter the legendary unreliability of the system and decide you need backup servers...
But this is when you notice the cost of the cluster solution, ofcourse by this time it`s too late.. your already locked in.
You didnt think windows was so unstable by accident did you?
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
The general public (that is, those outside of you're Linus worshipping cult) still think Microsoft is a respectable company. It isn't going anywhere either. Microsoft survived the .com bust losing only 20% of their stock value. AOL/Time Warner on the other hand, lost 90% of its value, and is still going down, yet that company is still here. Microsoft still makes arounb $10 billion profit each year. Are they an evil company? They've given more money to charities that all other corporations combined, in the history of the world, so ya, of course they're evil. Microsoft is not going anywhere for decades, if not centuries. Linux on the other hand shouldn't last too much longer because at some point people like you will eventually need to feed your family (job at MS) and plan for retirement (invest in MS). Writing and giving away software for free is a nice idea but it dosn't pay the bills.
Even if IBM and everyone else stop supporting Linux it'll still go on the way it always has, as a hobbyist project keeping hobbyists happy. They'll no more go broke doing it than a model airplane enthusiast will doing his not-for-profit hobby.
But that won't happen. IBM, Oracle, Corel, Sun, they've all had a taste of freedom from a demanding OS provider and their pet monopoly. Microsoft won't ever go away, DataGeneral is still with us even, in a way, but their market dominance will fade and people will realize that their stock price will never climb again. Even if they start to pay dividends they'll never regain their former glory. They've created the image of sustainable exponential growth for so long that when people realize they've slowed down for good, not just as a result of the dot-com collapse, they'll lose their 'Buy' rating.
btw, as for that charity crap, most of what they give is licenses. Check me out, I just wrote a "Hello World" program, priced it at $1B and donated six copies to the Red Cross. Now I'm more generous than Bill. Can I claim this on my taxes like they do?
As much as I like the OppenOffice.org effort, one week is not enough time to evaluate a product and do not yet justifies to go around offering it to clients (unless they ask for an option that is).
Comments like yours sound terribly childish and do not help to give people working with OSS a better reputation as professional responsible people.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
You are crazy.
Lame comparison.
Bin Laden is rich.
Let me know if you want more.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
But I always fired into the nearest hill or, failing that, into blackness.
I meant no harm; I just liked the explosions. And I was careful never to
kill more than I could eat.
-- Raoul Duke
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