All-New PowerBooks, Web Browser Featured at Macworld

Apple CEO Steve Jobs once again introduced the new PowerBooks new and upgraded software to a throng of adoring fans at the annual Macworld Expo San Francisco, including a new web browser, new versions of the "iLife" applications (iPhoto, iMovie, and iDVD), and presentation software (which Steve himself has been "beta testing" at every Macworld keynote since 2002). The PowerBook has been extended in two directions, with screens up to 17" and down to 12". Both feature a new material for the casing, aluminum (anodized, not painted), with AirPort antennas in the screen. The AirPort range of the PowerBook now equals the iBook. It will no longer boot into Mac OS, only into Mac OS X.

The 17" model is 1440x900 resolution, 16:10 aspect ratio, G4/1GHz, SuperDrive, GeForce4 440 Go/64MB, and all the same ports, with the addition of line in and FireWire 800 (in addition to FireWire 400). It is less than 1" thin, and 6.8 lbs., and has fiber-optic lightning for the keyboard activated by ambient light sensors. It will be available next month for $3,300.

The 12" version is 4.6 lbs., and is smaller than the iBook in every dimension. It's 1024x768, G4/867, GeForce4 420 Go/32MB, and is AirPort-ready ($99 extra). It is $1,800 for a combo drive model, $2,000 for a SuperDrive model, and will be available in two weeks.

Both models sport the new AirPort Extreme (802.11g), which is 54Mbps, up from the 11Mbps of AirPort (802.11b). The base stations and clients are fully compatible with the old AirPort, handle 50 users, and support both wireless bridging (to extend the range by adding more stations) and can act as a USB printer server.

Jobs also introduced Safari, a new Mac OS X browser based on the KHTML rendering engine from KDE (and Apple will publish changes they've made to it). There's nothing especially great about it -- it's a web browser -- except that, unlike most other browsers, it is expected to be fast and work properly, as well as be fully integrated into Mac OS X. The web is a killer app, but pretty much all web browsers suck; Apple hopes to give us something that doesn't suck in Safari. It is a free download for the beta, starting today. This story was posted using Safari. W00p.

iPhoto 2 has been revamped, with iTunes integration (access to playlists, tracks, even searching) for slide shows; one-click enhance of photos; a retouch brush; archiving to CD/DVD; and more. iMovie 3 has added chapters, the "Ken Burns Effect" (panning through still images), and precise audio editing. iDVD 3 has added a ton of quite cool themes, which will look great the first few times you see them.

They are -- along with iTunes -- bundled with all new Macs beginning January 25 as "iLife". All but iDVD will be freely available online, contrary to previously published reports. The entire bundle of four apps will be available for retail purchase for $50.

For sale today at $99 is another new app, Keynote, which is the presentation software Jobs has been using for over a year for his own presentations. It includes all sorts of flashy features like textures and Quartz-powered 3D transitions, and can import and export PowerPoint, as well as export to PDF and QuickTime. It has an open file format (using XML).

Jobs also introduced Final Cut Express, a stripped-down version of Final Cut Pro, for $300, and noted other prominent third-party software recently released for Mac OS X: QuickBooks, Director, and DigiDesign Pro Tools (later this month). He noted that the number of native apps for Mac OS X jumped from 2,000 to 5,000 in 2002.

Meanwhile, the number of users of the OS went from 1.2 million to 5 million last year, and he expects the number to jump to 9 or 10 million in 2003.

Update: 01/07 19:37 GMT by Jamie (also posted with Safari): And thanks to the several Slashdot readers who pointed out a great but unannounced product: X11 (aka the X Windows System) for Mac OS X. It's in Public Beta right now. Great to see this, an Apple-supported X is greatly needed. I don't know why Jobs didn't at least mention this, it would have gotten quite the round of applause I'm sure.

Comments

agent identification for Safari

[jvmatthe]

From my web counter on my site:

Netscape 5.0 Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/48 (like Gecko) Safari/48

Looks strange to me. Is this really the KDE HTML rendering engine or is it Gecko? It certainly identifies itself as Netscape 5...

Re:agent identification for Safari

[Graymalkin]

If it didn't register itself as Netscape 5 or something with a modicum of site compatibility site scripts would redirect it to the retard text only version of a site.

Re:agent identification for Safari

[borggraefe]

I too cant believe they used KHTML. I think they use Gecko. They hired David Hyatt a few months ago. David Hyatt was working at Netscape before and was one of their best developers. He actually had the most bugs assigned in Bugzilla.

Stefan

Re:agent identification for Safari

[fliplap]

From public record:

Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705)

Doesn't look strange to me, everything IDs as Mozila. We'll also note the default Konqueror UA is:

Mozilla/5.0 (compatible; Konqueror/2.1.1; X11)

FFR

Re:agent identification for Safari

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, I was certain Safari was supposed to be Mozilla. In fact I really think it is and someone goofed. It doesn't have tabbed-windows though. :-(

Re:agent identification for Safari

[Anonymous Coward]

Netscape 5.0 Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/48 (like Gecko) Safari/48

Is the "Netscape 5.0 " prelude actually part of the User-Agent header provided by this browser or from your web counter's internal identification? Because it appears to violate the spirit of the syntax of the User-Agent header ("application/version", where "application" contains no spaces).

And Safari is already to version 48? Talk about winning the version number wars! Where others seeking to have the bragging rights to the first browser version 8, they adopted version 48. What's the next version, 598708?

Re:agent identification for Safari

[fault0]

Suprise, suprise, Konquerror also does.

Re:agent identification for Safari

[jvmatthe]

AFAICT, it is not added by the counter. For example, Konqueror is just "Konqueror Mozilla/5.0 (compatible; Konqueror/3; Linux)". Then again, maybe it knows enough about Konqueror or they do some funny post-processing as you suggest.

Re:agent identification for Safari

[Neon Spiral Injector]

Well if they are using Gecko they must have stripped out a lot of the CSS code. I've tried Safari on some of my sites, and it doesn't come close to rendering them as well as Mozilla and brethern.

Re:agent identification for Safari

[jvmatthe]

Well, the user agent for Safari includes "Mozilla", "Netscape", and "like Gecko". None of this indicates anything to do with KHTML. I think that's my point...if they're using KHTML then their user agent string seems odd.

Re:agent identification for Safari

[Rob Kaper]

I too cant believe they used KHTML. I think they use Gecko.

nope .

Re:agent identification for Safari

[Anonymous Coward]

If this really is KHTML and not Gecko, the Apple guys have done yet another "interesting thing"... they've ported a Qt program over to Cocoa (there are Cocoa references in their code changes).

Makes me wonder what the state is of Qt development... if there's something else in the pipe coming.

Re:agent identification for Safari

[dietlein]

Poster: If it didn't register itself as Netscape 5 or something with a modicum of site compatibility site scripts would redirect it to the retard text only version of a site.

Me: If everyone coded according to the standards instead of using browser-specific hacks, its user-agent string wouldn't matter (except for logging, etc.).

Re:agent identification for Safari

[Aram Fingal]

It would be better if they allowed you to choose an identification string like iCab and OmniWeb do. Some sites will refuse to serve a particular browser even when it really is compatible.

Re:agent identification for Safari

[WatertonMan]

QT already DOES hook into Carbon. It has for quite some time. That's probably what made the port as easy as it was. Further by using the Konquerer stuff rather than the Gecko stuff they don't run into all those problems with text fields. Those have been the bane of Chimera. So it does make sense.

In regards to the CSS problems - this is a beta. I suspect that as time goes on it will support much more CSS.

Re:agent identification for Safari

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

I've tried Safari on some of my sites, and it doesn't come close to rendering them as well as Mozilla and brethern.

AAARRRRRHHHHHHH!!!

This is exactly what I was afraid of. I didn't mind if they used something other than Gecko, as long as it rendered as well as Gecko.

The last thing we need is another browser with a different level of support of CSS.
Now we have to balance between 4 browsers/rendering engines: IE6, Opera 7, Gecko, and Safari/KHTML.

Hopefully the story will change once it's out of beta.

Re:agent identification for Safari

[AKnightCowboy]

The last thing we need is another browser with a different level of support of CSS. Now we have to balance between 4 browsers/rendering engines: IE6, Opera 7, Gecko, and Safari/KHTML. Hopefully the story will change once it's out of beta.

They should've just supported Chimera instead. Gecko rendering engine, aqua interface, tabbed browsing, popup blocking, fast, etc. What more could you want? The only thing it's missing is being able to limit the number of times animated gifs run like Mozilla can.

Re:agent identification for Safari

[jonadab]

> The only thing it's missing is being able to
> limit the number of times animated gifs run

That's a very significant thing to be missing.
I've been disabling looping animations ever since
I found a page on the web that described how to do
it with Netscape 4.08, and since that day I WILL
NOT use a browser that loops animations forever.
(With Netscape 4, you had to use a hex editor;
fortunately now that's not necessary.)

Re:agent identification for Safari

[andrewski]

I know of many folks who find the text mode version of many web sites to be the least retarded of them all.

Re:agent identification for Safari

[Anonymous Coward]

If Apple's goal is to create a web browser that is as simple as possible, then this would be viewed as an unnecessary complication.

Re:agent identification for Safari

[Anonymous Coward]

David Hyatt was working at Netscape before and was one of their best developers. He actually had the most bugs assigned in Bugzilla.

Maybe that explains why they didn't use Gecko :)

Re:agent identification for Safari

[eallison]

According to one of the managers of Safari I talked to today at the conference, the reason they chose khtml is speed, speed, and speed. They spent a long time looking at that and Gecko, but they decided they would have to re-write Gecko to make it fast enough. He told me to just look at the code base, 1.25million lines for Gecko, ~150,000 for khtml.

Re:agent identification for Safari

[eallison]

I talked to a Safari manager at the conference today, and it's all Cocoa for sure. They widgets are all native Cocoa widgets - I'm using it now, and the text boxes are just so much better than Mozilla.

Re:agent identification for Safari

[Twirlip of the Mists]

I would guess that the license came into it at some point as well. KHTML uses the relatively benign LGPL, while Gecko is licensed under the more entangling NPL.

Re:agent identification for Safari

[dbrutus]

Since I (and probably a lot of other people) had never even heard of KHTML until Steve Jobs brought it up in his keynote, doesn't the vast amount of free advertising (plus code improvements) constitute something more than stealing?

Free advertising in exchange for free software does not sound like theft to me. And if the developers didn't want commercial entities doing things like Safari, they could have licensed under GPL instead of LGPL. Using LGPL was a conscious choice and they probably have gotten exactly what they wanted.

Re:agent identification for Safari

[tj8]

If everyone coded according to the standards [w3.org] instead of using browser-specific hacks, its user-agent string wouldn't matter

Well, if browsers actually implemented the standards, then standards-compliant code would work cross-browser. Alas, it does not, so browser-specific code becomes necessary. However, doing this by detecting the user-agent string is ill-advised. Object detection generally works better.

Re:agent identification for Safari

[marmoset]

I'm glad the KHTML developers are more openminded than you.

The way I see it, apple's simply walked in, ripped off YEARS of work done by the KDE team and gotten it all for free. Isn't there something that can be done about this?

Sure, they could have implemented it as a closed source project. What part of "open" are you not understanding?

Re:agent identification for Safari

[Matty_]

If you read the e-mail that the project manage with Apple sent to the KHTML developers, you'll see that they started this project a year ago. Chimera wasn't around then -- so how could they have chosen it? Mozilla hadn't even reached 1.0 at that point, either.

Re:agent identification for Safari

[fliplap]

Its worth noting that i pasted the Konqeror UA, which also uses KHTML, and doesn't broadcast it.

Re:agent identification for Safari

[batobin]

To be fair, Safari has popup blocking too.

Re:agent identification for Safari

[ManxStef]

Mark Pilgrim has done an excellent review of Safari and its handling of CSS - I'd suggest you check out if you're having problems, and submit (specific, reproduceable) test cases to Dave Hyatt.

I'll agree that it's a big pain to have yet another browser with a different level of support for CSS (especially since Tantek et al actually did a really good job with Mac IE5's CSS handling), but it is still a beta, and I'm sure that both the KHTML core and Safari teams will work really hard to get bugs ironed out and the standards support increased, so that it'll behave much better on its final release.

Fingers-crossed anyway ;)

Re:agent identification for Safari

[gig]

I think the idea is that what Safari renders, it renders just like Gecko, but it doesn't necessarily have the same level of CSS support as Gecko. Maybe that is coming, or maybe they're not worried about that since the browser is very lightweight and very fast and everything looks great in it.

Re:agent identification for Safari

[Dr_Cornholio]

How can this be bad? Another browser that appeals directly to a particualr market dominated by IE users (mac people). The way I see it, the more active browsers we have the better. There might actually be a strong push for complete industry standards for web browser engines in the near future, unlike the current situation where we have M$ doing their own thing and everyone else following a loose set of standards. Bring on the browsers I say! The more the merrier. Nothing beats having choice

Re:agent identification for Safari

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

I think the idea is that what Safari renders, it renders just like Gecko...

I hope that's not the idea, because they should be making it render how the standards say, not another browser (with the exception of quirks mode).
Of course, since Gecko supports the standards well, it wouldn't matter too much I spose. But a copy of a copy will always loose something if you know what I mean.

On a different note. The main issue with browsers not supporting CSS or whatever, isn't the fact that they don't support them, but that they don't support them properly. It's OK to not support CSS2, but it's very bad to only support some of it.

Apple surfs Slashdot!

[green pizza]

Check out this clip from their new (Konq-based) web browser... they're using Slashdot as an example website!
http://www.apple.com/safari/theater/bookmarks.html

Re:Apple surfs Slashdot!

[owenc]

It would be cool if someone could find out what comment or story this remnant of an url refers to,

www.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/01/06/195724&mo de=thread&tid

it briefly appeared on the address bar autocomplete list on the movie

Re:Apple surfs Slashdot!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeeeow... that's a butt ugly looking web browser. I thought the Mac mantra always wailed aboot how good it's supposed to look. Sheesh, that thing makes friggin KDE look good.

Bah

Re:Apple surfs Slashdot!

[Anonymous Coward]

That clip would be cool if it wasn't playing at like 2 frames a second.

Re:Apple surfs Slashdot!

[Tide]

Your welcome.

;-)

Re:Apple surfs Slashdot!

[weave]

Ah, in that example, they made the bookmark bar title slashdot. Everyone knows the bookmark bar should have /. as the title. Much less space on the bar. (unless you use IE that is, then it has to be sd... ;-)

Re:Apple surfs Slashdot!

[CaseyB]

I was surprised that the movie was made only yesterday.

And of course, it wouldn't have been a proper slashdot story visit if they hadn't scrolled past a "Steven King is dead" comment.

Re:Apple surfs Slashdot!

[antdude]

I thought it was funny to see Safari scroll down and show the low rated replies. I didn't see any first posts or anything bad though. :)

Re:Apple surfs Slashdot!

[IamTheRealMike]

Rather ironically, this is what Konqueror users see.

And is anybody else seeing extreme slowness on Slashdot since OSDN moved across America?

Re:Apple surfs Slashdot!

[mcc]

they're using Slashdot as an example website!

Actually, were I wanting to show off a new web browser, I would probably try to hit slashdot before anywhere else. Why?

Ugly table code! Your typical slashdot pageload is a humongous mess of hundreds upon hundreds of random tables nested in odd ways. If you want an example of a truly taxing test to throw at a web page renderer, slashdot's about as heavy as you can do. Since Safari is apparently all about speed, then it makes lots of sense. After all, rendering a single slashdot discussion page is enough to make MSIE on Mac OS 9 choke on my parents' G4 400 just about every single time-- once the page has loaded, the computer freezes up for at least 5 or so seconds even if IE is in the background. (MSIE for OS X does not have these problems) Omniweb loads slashdot fine but tends to act sluggish while scrolling. (Or it did the last time i used it.) This is what Safari is competing with..

Of course, this reasoning is obliterated by the poor framerate on that one quicktime movie, making it impossible to tell how smoothly it's running. but still ^_^

Re:Apple surfs Slashdot!

[hondo77]

MSIE for OS X does not have these problems

./ in IE on OS X doesn't bring the machine to its knees but IE is unusable for a while. The spinning beach ball of death can stay there for quite a while. Safari is not similarly afflicted.

Re:Apple surfs Slashdot!

[werd life]

Funny thing is, the page doesn't render correctly in Konqueror....

Re:Apple surfs Slashdot!

[WalterSobchak]

Spinning Beach Ball of death can stay there for QUITE a while with MSIE... seems much better with Safari.

Re:Apple surfs Slashdot!

[rattler14]

Apple... we can karma whore as well!

Re:Apple surfs Slashdot!

[kitzilla]

> Actually, were I wanting to show off a new web browser, I would probably try to hit slashdot before anywhere else. Why? Ugly table code!

Safari just loaded this page for me in VERY short order. Slashdot is a nightmare for IE (in oh-so-many-ways, huh?).

Re:Apple surfs Slashdot!

[sulli]

Including such gems as the Stephen King Dead At 55 troll, and "OH YEAH SUCK IT jerkstore troll strikes again." All that was missing was a goatse redirect.

Re:Apple surfs Slashdot!

[Octagon Most]

"Ugly table code! Your typical slashdot pageload is a humongous mess of hundreds upon hundreds of random tables nested in odd ways. If you want an example of a truly taxing test to throw at a web page renderer, slashdot's about as heavy as you can do."

YES! This page is the first one I hit after installing Safari. In fact Slashdot is the first thing I thought of while Jobs was demonstrating the product.

I love Safari already since it does not lock up my computer (233MHz iMac) for up to 5 minutes, like IE does, when loading a Slashdot page of infinite nested tables.

Wheeeee! Bring on more Slashdot ... is this a good thing?

Re:Apple surfs Slashdot!

[Mr Bubble]

Excellent suggestion.

I changed mine to "/." directly after reading your post.

Re:Apple surfs Slashdot!

[Ignominious Cow Herd]

Me too. Looks cool in Safari (brushed metal and all that...)

Re:Apple surfs Slashdot!

[martyn s]

Yes, I browse slashdot in nested mode, and with MSIE for OS X the browser just crashes half the time if there are too many posts. Safari and Chimera both handle slashdot fine though.

Re:Apple surfs Slashdot!

[rixstep]

Yahoo! Mail! does! strange! things! to! Safari! It's! frame-based! and! the! left! frame! starts! wa!a!ay too! wide!

Safari

[daemon lover]

good, but no tabbed browsing.

Re:Safari

[Clock Nova]

Switching back to a non-tabbed browser is like switching back to a one-button mouse: feels like cutting off an arm.

It may be fast, but I gotta have tabs and a sidebar for my bookmarks. If they ad these two features, I'll use it.

I tried it, and it IS fast. Too bad.

Re:Safari

[Anonymous Coward]

And why is this good. I'm used to it now...I hate 20 windows...

Re:Safari

[EccentricAnomaly]

Put it does block pop-up ads!

Re:Safari

[questor]

It's open source; let's fork the code and add tabs! (And see if Apple merges them into their releases...)

Re:Safari

[entrox]

No it's not - the underlying rendering engine is.

Re:Safari

[King Babar]

good, but no tabbed browsing.

No tabbed browsing (killer omission) and no type-ahead features, which sucks. It is very fast, however.

One nice feature, though, is emacs-style navigation in type-in forms! Alas, that feature is a bit buggy, but I was very happy to see it.

Worst thing so far is that I couldn't post this from Safari itself since it got confused when I pressed the "Preview" button. OK, so Mozilla was also slow, but I knew something was up due to the, er, "throbber" thingie. No such beast on Safari.

Re:Safari

[JudgeFurious]

What's "Interesting" about the observation that it's missing something? It's in beta for crying out loud. tabbed browsing isn't exactly the worst possible thing it could be missing.

Re:Safari

[Huge Pi Removal]

Yeah, using it now... 2 things:

1. It puts a very subtle grey dotted line round links that you click, rather than a hefty blue one. That's very nice.

2. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to tell you what a link is when you hover over it (e.g. like IE does down the bottom). There must be *some* way of fitting that into the wonderfully clean interface.

Re:Safari

[ictatha]

2. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to tell you what a link is when you hover over it (e.g. like IE does down the bottom). There must be *some* way of fitting that into the wonderfully clean interface.

Look on the "View" menu, check "Status Bar", done.

Re:Safari

[Elwood P Dowd]

good, but no tabbed browsing

For many people (ok, maybe just for me), tabbed browsing isn't just to solve screen clutter: It's also to solve speed issues with switching windows in browsers. Personally, in IE on windows, clicking "Open in New Window" makes both windows unusable for what feels like ten seconds. If that were solved, I'd have no desire for tabbed browsing. So... if Apple has solved the speed problem...

Re:Safari

[chinakow]

but tabs are poorly implemented and the whole mozilla render engine sucks, BAD, its SLOOOOOOWW and doesn't cache pages very well, the tabs are also slow, it frustrates me everytime I use it and it take 3 days to load so I end up staring at the splash screen for an eternity so that after the window finnally renders then I wait another 2 eons for the page to load and then if I want to open a new tab I have to ctrl-click or go use a fscking menu, this is also slow and make me want a keyboard shortcut, also a ctrl-click will load the page in both windows sometime and there is no way to open a tab in the background, in my not very humble opinion, mozilla is a terrible implementation of a web browser and its bretheren are not any better either.

Re:Safari

[daeley]

Erm, it does have type ahead -- I just used that feature. And the 'throbbing' is done in the background of the location bar -- watch for the blue progress bar, which you might miss since it's so bloody fast. :)

Re:Safari

[dbrutus]

Since it's open source, I suspect that tabs et al will get added in eventually.

Re:Safari

[Huge Pi Removal]

Yeah, noticed that about 10 seconds after posting.
A slightly more subtle issue is that if you click on a link, but it doesn't load properly and you click "stop", the *link* address stays in the URL bar rather than reverting to the current page's address. I don't think the URL bar should change until it's at least connected to the server...

Right, nit-picking over and on with getting my bookmarks over from Omniweb.

Re:Safari

[BJH]

Since nobody was talking about Mozilla, I don't know what you're on about, but anyway...

tabs are poorly implemented
In what way?

the whole mozilla render engine sucks
The WHOLE engine? Really?

doesn't cache pages very well
No problems here...

if I want to open a new tab I have to ctrl-click or go use a fscking menu, this is also slow and make me want a keyboard shortcut
Ctrl-t is your friend. You can't have used it much if you don't know that one.

and there is no way to open a tab in the background
Preferences/Navigator/Tab Browsing/Load links in background. My, that was hard, wasn't it?

in my not very humble opinion, mozilla is a terrible implementation of a web browser and its bretheren are not any better either.
You mean "in my uninformed and completely worthless opinion", I think, as it looks like you haven't bothered learning even the most rudimentary features.

Re:Safari

[raju1kabir]

tabbed browsing isn't exactly the worst possible thing it could be missing.

I can't think of anything worse that could be missing and still leave a functioning browser. Once you go to tabs, you can't go back.

Re:Safari

[petsounds]

True, it will be hard to catch up to Mozilla's feature set, but I imagine Apple will put a big focus on the development of this browser. It will be interesting to see what Microsoft's reaction will be to Apple's increasing stance as a software competitor and not a partner. I really wish they'd get rid of that outdated brushed steel appliance motif, though. It was a horrid UI decision in the first place, and I'm sad to see Apple is still propagating it through their software apps. I'm curious how they're boasting such impressive page load speeds compared to the other browsers (i assume the page was huge or they were on dialup): 16.6 secs for Safari Beta, 21.8 secs for Chimera 0.6, 33.6 secs for Netscape 7.01, 53.8 secs for IE 5.2.2. Are they taking advantage of undocumented OS calls, a la Microsoft?

Re:Safari

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL, you really need to quit using M15. There are much newer versions out that are quick on anything newer then a PPC601, or Pentium 120....

Re:Safari

[entrox]

I'm curious how they're boasting such impressive page load speeds compared to the other browsers

Oh that's easy, considering the amount of code involved. You see, one of the main arguments in favour of KHTML was its small size - like 140.000 lines of code. I'm guessing, but that's probably a fifth of the Gecko codebase. Read it up in this mail to the kfm-devel mailing list.

Re:Safari

[Alan Partridge]

yes you can, I switch back and forth all the time. I still think that good window handling can be just as goog. Omniweb has GREAT window handling, superb bookmarks and - apparently - better Slashdot compatibility that Safari...

Safari's quicker though!

Re:Safari

[Alan Partridge]

"and on with getting my bookmarks over from Omniweb."

Have you thought of an EASY way? I'm dreading the prospect...

Re:Safari

[Alan Partridge]

actually, I've just bookmarked my Omniweb "Bookmarks.html" file in Safari - which Omniweb keeps in usr/library/application support/omniweb. A very neatly organised little file it is too! Thanks Omni group.

Re:Safari

[jlower]

You can drag and drop right from OmniWeb's bookmarks window to the Safari bookmark bar. It's still a one-at-a-time operation but not bad.

Re:Safari

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, but I can't agree with you. Maybe give up your 386 if Mozilla loads too slow???

How exactly are tabs "poorly implemented?" I agree with the other poster -- you either didn't take any time to learn the interface or you couldn't figure it out. Too bad you didn't tell us your learned opinion as to how they could be "better implemented."

I'm not sure what's wrong with the Mozilla engine. I'm no expert but it sure works well enough for me.

On my cable modem, I have consistently noted that pages appear and load faster in both Mozilla and in Phoenix (the 0.5 beta, mind you), than in IE6. Maybe it's 'cuz these two browsers let you kill pop-ups, and IE6 chokes for 4-5 seconds in my experience (both at work and at home) whenever a pop-up is "coming" (I can always tell when one is about to come, IE just sticks).

To open a new tab, you can also (1) right-click on the link and say Open in New Tab, (2) always show the Tab bar at the top, then click the New Tab icon. You could also (3) add the New Tab button to the main toolbar.

To open pages in the background, go to Options and tell it to do so. Geez. The first or second thing I do with ANY software I get is to look at the options / preferences screen, you can learn a lot about software that way and what it's capable of.

Take some time, "chinakow", to learn about something before trashing it (maybe work on your grammar too, ever hear about a run-on sentence?)

Re:Safari

[King Babar]

Erm, it does have type ahead -- I just used that feature.

I meant "type ahead find" (or highlight links on the page). Mozilla has this, but I cannot find this feature (or help on it) anywhere in Safari. I don't mean type ahead in the location bar.

Re:Safari

[phoenix_rizzen]

What's so great about tabs? Opera has had them for aeons, and I've found them to be nothing but trouble. They take up screen real estate. The require you to use the mouse. They are a pain to close (Mozilla has a horrible interface). And they don't do anything particularly useful that a good MDI (or well organised SDI) interface doesn't already provide.

Same with the Sidebar. I've yet to find a single, useful implementation of a sidebar that doesn't use up too much space for too little value (Nautilus is the worst for this, but Netscape, and Mozilla aren't pretty crummy as well).

What would be better is if more apps in general followed Opera's lead and made better use of the MDI. One window for the app, separate windows for each "page" within that window. Key bindings for everything so that you don't need to use the mouse except when absolutely necessary. But also use mouse gestures so that those who are dependent (poor sods) on the mouse never need to use the keyboard.

Opening separate application windows for each "page" is an absolute waste and one reason I refuse to use most MS products now. Tabs are a poor man's MDI and all developers who find them "new, innovative, useful" should be shot.

Re:Safari

[Anonymous Coward]

So Gecko only has 700 lines of code? Impressive!

Re:Safari

[damiam]

Tabs are a poor man's MDI

So how would you prefer your MDI done? Would you rather have to go to the Window menu and scroll to whatever document you want? Or would you rather move between windows with keys, just like all Gecko-based tabbed browsers allow you to do?

Re:Safari

[Anonymous Coward]

How do you move between windows w/ keys on Mozilla for OS X?

Re:Safari

[Anonymous Coward]

tabs are poorly implemented
In what way?

The mozilla tabs are butt-f*ing-ugly on OS X. It looks like the Active tab is behind all of the others.

Not to mention that the interface is like molasses on a G3.

Re:Safari

[jim3e8]

Try Command-{ and Command-} (that's left and right bracket--i.e., shift-[ ). This switches between tabs in Chimera; I imagine it works in Mozilla as well.

Re:Safari

[Grahf666]

Anybody else find it interesting that Apple didn't include comparisons with Opera and Omniweb? I really would have liked to have seen how Safari stacks up against those two. Oh well, we can always do subjective tests...

Re:Safari

[phoenix_rizzen]

Can you eliminate the tab bar? Can you minimise/maximise individual tabs? Can you resize tabs? Can you put more than one tab onscreen at a time (tile/cascade)? Can you use standard keys for moving between tabs (CTRL+TAB, CTRL+SHIFT+TAB)? Can you use standard keys for creating (CTRL+N) and closing (CTRL+F4) tabs?

Last time I tried Mozilla (1.0 or 1.0.1) and Netscape (6.02), you couldn't. All you could do is open or close tabs, using a completely separate set of keys for manipulating tabs, and everything still revolved around the "one window per page" SDI.

Maybe things have changed since the days of 1.0. Hopefully they have. But, I've given up on Mozilla for the foreseeable future.

Re:Safari

[Anonymous Coward]

Try Command-{ and Command-} (that's left and right bracket--i.e., shift-[ ).

In other words, Command-Shift-] and Command-Shift-[.

Shit, I thought you people thought it was too hard to use one modifier key with a mouse-click!

Re:Safari

[WalletBoy]

One nice feature, though, is emacs-style navigation in type-in forms! Alas, that feature is a bit buggy, but I was very happy to see it.

The reason why the emacs style navigation is there is because Safari is a Cocoa app written in Objective-C. You get all sorts of great stuff free when using that API. Not only do you have emacs navigation, you can also turn on spell-checking as you type in form fields. Cocoa apps just plain rule! To paraphrase Mike Meyers, if it isn't a Cocoa app (or GnuStep) written in Objective-C, it's crap!

Re:Safari

[OnlyRB]

Can you eliminate the tab bar?

Yes, from View>Show/Hide (if you have only one tab open, of course).

Can you minimise/maximise individual tabs? Can you resize tabs?

Hmm, what would be the point of that? You just resize the whole browser.

Can you put more than one tab onscreen at a time (tile/cascade)?

Again, what the point? The tabs are accessible by, ugh, tabs, which carry the title of the page. (There is a Request for Enhancement for some kind od split screen display, I think, but it has not been implemented yet.)

Can you use standard keys for moving between tabs (CTRL+TAB, CTRL+SHIFT+TAB)?

Yes they work.

Can you use standard keys for creating (CTRL+N) and closing (CTRL+F4) tabs?

Ctrl-t opens a new tab. (I always close tabs with mouse, so not sure about the other one.)

... and everything still revolved around the "one window per page" SDI.

You seem to miss the point. As it has been said already, clicking on links with "open tabs in background" preference is a way of browsing that many find extremely powerfull.

Re:Safari

[stoney27]

Yes it would be nice but if you Comand/{Apple key}- click the browser will have a floating window which then you can see where the link goes to. I also took this to the location bar and it went right to the link. It was very cool.

I also wish they had included tabs, I just started to use them in Mozilla and love them.

-Scott

Re:Safari

[zephc]

thats because it uses the native OS X text box widget, which has spell checking built-in. Omniweb has this nice feature too. I think I almost like Safari better than OmniWeb now too, especially for speed.

Re:Safari

[Goalie_Ca]

Agreed, Mozilla takes about 30 megs of space as gziped archive. It's about the same as the entire linux kernel.

Re:Safari

[Twirlip of the Mists]

Note well that only Webcore is open source. Safari, which is the browser application itself, is most definitely not.

Re:Safari

[Twirlip of the Mists]

Omniweb has GREAT window handling, superb bookmarks and - apparently - better Slashdot compatibility that Safari...

I've been using Safari on Slashdot all day now. Before this morning, I was using OmniWeb full time. Apart from speed and the fact that "check spelling as you type" is on by default in OmniWeb, I can't tell the difference. What are you referring to?

Re:Safari

[Twirlip of the Mists]

I'm pretty sure the charts used in the keynote address included comparisons to OmniWeb as well (Safari was faster). And they didn't include Opera because, well, only about six people use it.

Re:Safari

[GGarand]

Well, Konqueror 3.1 has good support for tabbed-browsing so it should be pretty straightforward for Apple developers to merge the necessary changes since 3.0.2 (it's where they started).

In case you didn't notice, Safari is an early Beta...

G.

Re:safari

[Anonymous Coward]

the brushed metal theme only encompasses the menubar area with no frame at all around the rest...

that's easily fixed: go to view/status bar. there's a realtively fair amount of customization. (try fiddling with the "show all bookmarks menu" as well!)

cheers

Re:Safari

[dbrutus]

I would suspect that the final might come with some nifty applescripts to transfer over your bookmarks. Remember, it's beta.

Re:Safari

[dbrutus]

Though, as a cocoa bundle, it is remarkably open to hacking by 3rd parties. Could tabbed browsing be hacked on by modifying the nibs?

Re:Safari

[Twirlip of the Mists]

No. NIB files just contain the UI layout and bindings. There's no actual logic in the NIB files. In other words, you might be able to change a NIB to include a tab bar, but you'd be unable to make the tab bar do anything.

Anyway, tabs are bad and wrong.

Re:Safari

[salimma]

Then again when using IE I tend to start several independent processes, just in case one fall over and kill all the other windows :p

Re:Safari

[Toraz Chryx]

hrmm, is it possible they've utilised the altivec hardware for page rendering?, would explain why I've seen posts on usenet from people claiming it's slower than IE on their B&W G3s

also, WRT the smooth scrolling, it occured to me that they might render the entire page and hold it in a backbuffer, just moving up and down something that's been prerendered should easily be faster than rendering it 'in realtime!'

No facts, just idle musings :)

Re:Safari

[klez23]

One nice feature, though, is emacs-style navigation in type-in forms!

That's available in all Cocoa apps, I believe. I can vouch for Chimera, Textedit, & Mail, having just tested them.

Re:Safari

[dalamcd]

Nope, the four browsers they compared were Netscape 7.0.1, IE 5.2.2 (I think it was .2.2), Chimera 0.6, and Safari.

dalamcd

Re:Safari

[Anonymous Coward]

You dweeb
that is 140 thousand, you ISo-challenged dweeb

Re:Safari

[Alan Partridge]

Safari is giving me a LOT of timeouts, particularly when hitting reply - Omniweb just sails serenely on...

Re:Safari

[Anonymous Coward]

I just keep a thin second window opened to history and drag and drop the urls. It's not tabs but it works quit well.

Re:Safari

[Anonymous Coward]

On my Rev. B iMac (G3 233 MHZ, 160 MB of RAM, original 'slow-as-molasses-in-the-winter' 4GB HD) it's faster than any other browser: a little faster than Chimera, a LOT faster than IE 5.2. Page scrolling is also faster. (Finally useable. I was about to give up web surfing on the iMac).

Re:Safari

[AnalystX]

I believe the Chimera benchmark was based on a non-pipelined version. I am running a pipelined version of Chimera and experienced an average of eight (8) percent greater speed than Safari for the same sites Apple used. The biggest difference was found on msnbc.com, where Chimera was about six (6) times faster than Safari.

I like the new browser, but it also absolutely destroys certain HTML element properties and client-space rendering. I had a number of problems with Safari rendering my own site, and all my code is to HTML 4.0.1, CCS2, and DOM2 spec.

Re:Safari

[phoenix_rizzen]

In other words, tabs work completely different from the standard MDI.

I'm not missing the point. I'm trying to show that tabs are not the panacea, nor the great missing link that everyone keeps trying to make them out to be.

There's nothing wrong with a browser that does not include tabs. IMO, there's plenty of things wrong with a browser that includes tabs a la Mozilla, as it is a very poor implementation. More Mozilla users need to use Opera to see just how bad Mozilla does things.

Re:Safari

[Anonymous Coward]

Does enabling Full Keyboard Access in the Universal Access pane of System Prefs (IIRC--it's somewhere in System Prefs) help with this?

HTH
WM

Re:Safari

[dbrutus]

I'm reasonably sure that you could add an executable to a bundle, change a menu to include a command linking to that executable and add features that way. I can see how it might be a difficult hack, but I think it might be possible.

As for the utility of tabs, I find that I like them. They are useful for advanced users

Also, Apple based X11

[Nutcase]

It seems apple is now pushing it's own X11 implementation at: http://www.apple.com/macosx/x11/

Not announced, but still quite interesting. Its X11, but with all the OS X look on the windows (shadows, genie, etc)

Re:Also, Apple based X11

[Redshift]

Seems like not quite ready for primetime?

"The requested object does not exist on this server. The link you followed is either outdated, inaccurate, or the server has been instructed not to let you have it. Please inform the site administrator of the referring page. d"

Re:Also, Apple based X11

[plastik55]

from that page: Experts may choose to replace the native Aqua window manager with their own familiar, standard X Window Manager.

Now, if only I could substitute my windowmanager of choice for native apps in addition to X11 apps, then I'll never look back at Linux again...

Re:Also, Apple based X11

[schwatoo]

The OpenDarwin team have Mac OS X double-clickable installers too here: http://www.opendarwin.org/projects/darwinports/en/ x11.php I'm wondering whether or not Apple is merely leveraging their work... Esp. considering Jordan Hubbard is the lead of OpenDarwin.org

Re:Also, Apple based X11

[nether]

I believe that OpenDarwin.ORG == Apple. They are one in the same.

Re:Also, Apple based X11

[redtail1]

Now, if only I could substitute my windowmanager of choice for native apps in addition to X11 apps, then I'll never look back at Linux again...

I wonder if this is Apple's way of assimilating some of the behavior of Linux for those people who only want to run an occasional app.

Re:Also, Apple based X11

[jc42]

So can you get it with a 3-button mouse?

I use X's cut-and-paste all the time, and it's really frustrating to use the complex dance that both Macs and Windoze machines make you do to just copy a few bytes from one place to another.

Of course, my SO sneers at 3-button mice. She has worked on several projects where she had a 16-button mouse. Once you get handy with one of those, others seem limited and clumsy.

I've heard any number of comments from the CAD/CAM crowd about how useful it would be if they could carry around a "laptop" with a real mouse like the one on their design station. Field work would be so much easier if you can fill the portable's disk with all the diagrams or maps, and edit them on the scene.

Though myself, what I want is a way to plug 8 or 10 mikes into a PowerBook, so I can do N-track field recordings. I've looked around www.apple.com, but haven't found the part numbers yet.

Re:Also, Apple based X11

[Anonymous Coward]

OSX has always supported mice with multiple buttons.

Re:Also, Apple based X11

[IamTheRealMike]

It seems apple is now pushing it's own X11 implementation

Oh great. Just what the world needs, yet another X server. This will be good if they can keep up with XFree which basically the canonical X server in the world today, but if they can't it'll be worse than useless. Support for XRender is only now filtering down into the commercial X servers for instance, and the new Xr/Xc/R&R/XCursor extensions for instance aren't there yet. Why don't they just use XFree, I don't get this reinventing of the wheel from them. It's not like they're overflowing with resources, and they clearly aren't afraid of leveraging open source code, so why make their own X server?? (if that's indeed what this is).

Re:Also, Apple based X11

[Anonymous Coward]

She has worked on several projects where she had a 16-button mouse.

My god! What the hell planet is she from??!?

Re:Also, Apple based X11

[meekjt]

Did you read apples X11 page?

the page reads:

"...And of course, you can use any three-button USB mouse with X11 for Mac OS X -- plug it in and it just works."

Re:Also, Apple based X11

[Anonymous Coward]

She has worked on several projects where she had a 16-button mouse.

My god! What the hell planet is she from??!?

A planet where keyboards evolved from mice?

Re:Also, Apple based X11

[ActiveSX]

Note that there's an XFree logo on Apple's page. So don't worry, it's not another X server.

Re:Also, Apple based X11

[Anonymous Coward]

Moron.

Re:Also, Apple based X11

[Ponty]

Well, yea, obviously.

Re:Also, Apple based X11

[redtail1]

Dumb question... is Apple obligated to release any changes they make to X11 back to the open source crowd?

X11 support from Apple.

[stevenprentice]

I submitted this as a story as it was not covered during the keynote, but it was rejected.

Apple has released beta X11 support including a window server and a few apps.

Open Source

[Petrox]

The writeup forgot to mention that both Safari and Keynote are open source.

Re:Open Source

[questor]

Keynote is not open source. It is open file format, XML, so that other apps (to be written) can generate Keynote presentations (as well as importing/exporting PowerPoint, and exporting PDF and Flash, if I recall correctly), but Steve didn't say anything about Keynote's source code.

Re:Open Source

[geniusj]

Keynote? It costs $99.. Are you sure? :)

Re:Open Source

[dennism]

The writeup forgot to mention that both Safari and Keynote are open source.

The HTML rendering portion of Safari is open source. Keynote is not -- it's a commercial product like DVD Studio, Final Cut Pro, MacOS X, and just about everything else Apple does.

Re:Open Source

[NSObject]

What was said is that Keynote's file format is open (and XML based) to encourage third party tie ins with databases and the like.

Unfortunately

[Anonymous Coward]

introduced the new PowerBooks new and upgraded software to a throng of adoring fans rather than thinking users. Prost Fup!

X11 for Mac OS X

[Anonymous Coward]

Did anyone notice this?

http://www.apple.com/macosx/x11/

Official X11 server also

[Wesley Felter]

I don't think Steve mentioned this during the keynote, but Apple also released their own version (?) of XFree86 for OS X. I wonder how this compares to the version from Fink.

Not bad

[Lebannen]

Fascinating.

It's officially the 'year of the notebook' - so that's how Apple is coping with slow processors then!

Very nice new powerbooks though - especially the 17-incher, with glowing keyboards and ambient light detection. It also adjusts the screen brightness, mmmm :)

Safari, the web browser, is actually based of KHTML - KDE's HTML library. Not bad, especially seeing as they're going to give the 'orders of magnitude' speedups back in the way of the source code.

And digs at Quark. And the rumors sites were practically all wrong. Hah. Best keynote in ages.

Re:Not bad

[wavedeform]

Yes the glowing keyboard is cool, but it really made me think (in best Wizard of Oz voice): "Pay no attention to the same old processor speeds behind the curtain." And is Safari really going to be open source, or is it just going to be using (and contributing to) the KHTML renderer?

Re:Not bad

[kitzilla]

Actually, MacRumors.com was quite close last night. They had the 12" and 17" (good Lord!) Powerbooks; the iApp bundle at the correct price; Apple's amazing new Airport; the new Firewire; and the browser. Nobody saw the presentation software coming, but it was the least of Jobs' announcements. Nobody predicted an Apple-branded X11 port.

No video iPods, no all-in-one networking appliance (though the new Airport is certainly a step forward).

Re:Not bad

[analog_line]

The presentation software was not the "least" of Jobs' annoucnements. Keynote is a clear shot across Microsoft's bow. A direct Powerpoint competitor. That's not a small thing.

Re:Not bad

[AKnightCowboy]

Very nice new powerbooks though - especially the 17-incher, with glowing keyboards and ambient light detection. It also adjusts the screen brightness, mmmm :)

Pffft. Only 17-inch? How can anyone expect me to work on such a small display? Where is the 23" wide-screen studio display Powerbook?

Seriously though, what is up with a 17 inch Powerbook?? Who the hell will buy such a huge notebook? I deliberately bought the smallest screen iBook I could (12") because I want portability not a huge honking display that I have to lug around. Hmph.

Re:Not bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's a clue -- nobody buys PowerPoint. It comes free with Word and Excel, so people use it.

Re:Not bad

[kitzilla]

Yes, you're right: a shot across the bow of Bill Gates' boat. But I think it was a less significant announcement than Safari, which will surely replace IE as OS X's default browser.

Re:Not bad

[jonadab]

> Seriously though, what is up with a 17 inch Powerbook?? Who the
> hell will buy such a huge notebook?

I'm holding out for larger. Yes, really. I've been looking around
at various laptops (e.g., at EmperorLinux), but the _largest_ displays
I can find are 16" viewable, and that's just plain small. I went
out a while back and bought myself a nineteen-inch monitor for a
_reason_. Because I need every last millimeter of that screen space.
A 16-inch display is just _not_ enough space. At that size, by
the time you split your Emacs frame into three windows, you can't
see enough lines in any of them to get context, or else you've
split two of them horizontally and can't see an entire line, which
is usually worse. Or maybe you're not editing text today; maybe
today you're editing graphics instead. Your brushes and layers
dialog and tools and tool options will take up more than half of
that screen -- you won't have hardly any space left for an actual
image. If you need to work on two images side-by-side, heaven
help you. I suppose it would be alright if all you want to do
is browse the web and get email... but I just can't function on
a display that small, not if I have to do anything much.

I saw this 17 inch model, and my first reaction was, "Well, that's
only an inch less than my 18-viewable display..." but then I saw
the aspect ratio, did the calculations, and it turns out that my
18" viewable ("19 inch") CRT has a full 15% more display area than
this PowerBook. (And yes, the resolution is also higher (1600x1200
if I max it out) although they both have a res in line with their
size, so it really is the display area that counts; the pixels can
only get so small and things still be easy to see.)

So if I were to use this PowerBook, I'd have to give up some 13% of
my display area (as _well_ as my Avant keyboard). Nothing Doing.
And that's the _largest_ I've seen. But the larger ones (16" and
up) are starting to come out more and more, so I'm figuring if I
wait long enough, some genious manufacturer will come out with a
laptop that actually fills up my lap and gives me a real actual
honest-to-goodness display area, and hopefully something that
resembles a full-size keyboard too.

Sure, these models won't be popular with the folks who really want
a wristwatch model, but that's a different market segment. Those
people don't actually _use_ their computers, they just want to
have something easy to tote around in a shirt pocket that they
can claim is a computer. Me, what I basically want is a desktop
system with fewer cords, built all in one piece that folds once,
with lower power consumption and a battery built in, so that I can
lug it around if I need to.

I also need a good deal of RAM. (The CPU, however, can be a
pretty much anything that doesn't use much power. Bonus points
if it's x86-compatible, but as long as it runs some form of unix
and XFree and is _reasonably_ common so most apps will compile,
it'll do. I'd definitely consider an Apple system if the more
important things like screen size were what I want.)

The _idea_ of having something portable appeals to me -- as well
as the idea of the battery built in, so that if the power goes out
I don't have problems. (I could get a UPS, but then I've thrown
_all_ pretenses of portability out the window.) But unless some
company comes out with portables with a little more display area,
my next computer will be... another desktop. That's why it's good
to see Apple introducing this seventeen-incher. If it sells well,
I can hope that other manufacturers will follow suit, and that at
some point some genius will step it up a little more...

Re:Not bad

[King Babar]

Yes, you're right: a shot across the bow of Bill Gates' boat. But I think it was a less significant announcement than Safari, which will surely replace IE as OS X's default browser.

I'm not a real PowerPoint weenie, but it was massively unclear whether it could do anything that Keynote couldn't, and Keynote has the crushing advantage of better looks and PDF export.

As far as Safari goes, it has CSS support problems in the beta, no tabs, no "type ahead to links", and no real reason to use it over Mozilla or Chimera other than a small speed boost (at least as far as I can tell so far). It might ship as the default, but that means I'll just have to go around and change that setting...c'est la vie.

Re:Not bad

[dr00g911]

It's absolutely not the least of the announcements today.

As a person weaned in the service bureaus of the late-80s/early-90s, I can say that every decent presentation app produced in the last 10 years has been EOLed because of Powerpoint's ubiquity.

Aldus/Adobe Persuasion, anyone? That was one hell of an app. And -- get this -- you could have real, multiple master pages in the same presentation. Harvard Graphics had that feature as well.

"What," you say "presentations can have more than one master... in the same file???"

I'm not talking having a slide master, a title master, etc. I'm talking as many different title templates as you'd like in the same file.

Persuasion supported alpha channels too (through Mac PICT format), and a million other things that were never developed into powerpoint because they haven't needed to, and apparently, no one's complained. Yeah, PPT has transparency. Through freakin' GIFs. Hardly a substitute.

Powerpoint is so bad in its handling of master slides and typography, not to mention its abhorrent handling (mangling) of graphic formats other than WMF and BMP that I chose to personally design every presentation I've made since Persuasion was dropped in Macromedia Director. That's a pretty big hammer to solve that particular problem.

The point to this diatribe is, that I damned near cried when I saw Keynote unveiled.

- NICE looking templates
- Uncluttered, friendly interface
- Eye candy galore
- PPT, SWF and Photoshop compatibility out of the box, layers included

I challenge you to find *ANYONE* who enjoys working in Powerpoint. Most users outright loathe it, but there's nothing else on the market now that approaches its (limited) functionality and is compatible with newer PPT file formats.

Powerpoint is a hell of a chink in MS's armor.

This is more than a shot across the bow.

Re:Not bad

[kitzilla]

Safari is a very young, but very promising browser. I'll keep Chimera for my default for now. But once we see tabs, better CSS support, and a few other things, we'll just have to see.

Looking forward to Chimera 0.7!

Re:Not bad

[Anonymous Coward]

I think this model is designed for video professionals who would need a larger screen for editing, the s-video port and other features of the 17 incher.

Re:Not bad

[kalidasa]

Great posting, but it's obvious that you haven't used Powerpoint XP, which has both multiple masters and rather better handling of EMF files than 2000 had. No, it doesn't meet the rest of your requirements; I imagine it would take MS another decade to get up to that point.

How is the animation in Keynote? Powerpoint's animation is getting to be useful, and I don't want to have to use flash to do some of the stuff I need to do.

Re:Not bad

[jafac]

The other thing that people seem to be missing -

If Keynote (and Safari) *IS* a shot across Microsoft's bow, we all know what this will inevitably lead to:
Microsoft shooting back.

How?
Using "Office like a club". Keep watching. You know this to be true.

So what will Apple do in response? Right now, Office X is "good enough". And may be good enough for the next two years or so. But what happens when Microsoft migrates to the next verion of Office? Then Office X will not have file-format compatability, unless Microsoft provides an upgrade.

So either Office X is going to be left in the dust - or Apple might write a plug-in for Office X to make file-format compatability possible.

Or
Look at the file format of the upcoming version of Office for Windows.
Look at the file format of Keynote.

Notice any similarities? Two hints:
It starts with "X"
It ends with "L"

Speculation: Apple must have something in the "works" (pun intended), since presentation software, and file-format compatability are the only things that Apple Works is missing. . .

All this is sweet

[sjgman9]

Microsoft is going to have to work harder now to keep up. Apple needs to put the PPC970 from IBM and integrate USB2 pronto. Other than that, this was a marvelous keynote.

Re:All this is sweet

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft is going to have to work harder now to keep up

Last time I looked, Microsoft is a software company that is light years ahead of Apple in terms of sales and raw profit. I'm a fanboy of neither company, they both are very dangerous with their monopolistic control (although Apple has control over the hardware and software... what a nightmare)

Re:All this is sweet

[Slur]

You have a point. But then again, McDonalds sells more hamburgers than anyone else. Still, they've got a long way to go before they become a gourmet restaurant.

Re:All this is sweet

[Anonymous Coward]

f' USB2...did 'ya notice that the new PowerBook has 1394b - as in 800 Mbit Firewire!!! Woohoo!

Re:All this is sweet

[sjgman9]

there are a lot of PC components that can be useful here

Re:All this is sweet

[sjgman9]

Chipotle. Kickass mexican food. If you are even in Chicago, go west to Oakbrook and go have dinner at the McDonald;s lodge. Oustanding food, this is a traditional restauraunt on their corporate headquarters overlooking a lake and a golf course.

Woohooo!!

[gr8gatzby]

I {HEART} Apple!!!!!!

Re:Woohooo!!

[CableModemSniper]

Is the fact that this guy {Heart}s apple really +3 Insightful?? Jeezus. I hope I get to meta-mod this post.

Other stories

[ninenet]

There is actually a pretty good story on all the new announcements over at eWEEK also. I was pretty surprised about the browser announcement, mainly because everyone thought Internet Explorer had won the browser war, though it has never worked quite as well on the Mac as it has on the PC. Hopefully this Safari will fly. Has anyone gotten a look at Keynote (the new presentation software) yet?

Re:Other stories

[csnydermvpsoft]

though it has never worked quite as well on the Mac as it has on the PC

Are you kidding? I've used IE on both Mac and Windows, and have to say that the Mac version is much better (though still worse than Chimera). Ditto for MS Office. It seems that when MS formed their Mac division, all of the good programmers flocked to it...

Re:Other stories

[Anonymous Coward]

The browser wasn't surprising at all seeing as how David Hyatt (One of the guys working on mozilla) was hired by apple a few months ago.

It's odd that the blurb at the top says it's khtml because the interface is pretty much exactly the same as phoenix on pc/linux (There isn't a mac version)

The search textbox even uses the same icon as the browser currently known as phoenix.

Re:Other stories

[Anonymous Coward]

uh, no one that knows anything thought IE had won the browser war. IE won the battle, but gecko has been making quite the comeback.

Re:Other stories

[ceebABC]

I have found that IE for Windows has better performance than the Mac, though I do like the look and feel of the Mac version better. I have to say that I hope this new browser doesn't make Microsoft even less likely to invest in things like IE for the Mac, since for them there isn't the same "OS value" that is being built by a great IE for the Mac. Besides the browser I think this backlit keyboard is ingenious. It's such a basic, simple idea that it is always amazing when someone finally comes out with one. Apple frequently comes out with these sort of products.

Re:Other stories

[ealar dlanvuli]

Phoenix borowed quite alot from the mac GUI, thats why it's such a good windows app. Seems the last program to do that (Excel) ended up doing quite well also. Interesting trend, I wonder why it is (note sarcasm).

Re:Other stories

[jericho4.0]

While there are things I liked about Mac IE over PC IE, it was slow to load, slow to render, and broke down with pngs.

I've been using Safari all day. It's my new browser of choice.

Re:Other stories

[Twirlip of the Mists]

Are you kidding? I've used IE on both Mac and Windows, and have to say that the Mac version is much better

Then IE for Windows must suck. IE for OS 9 was pretty darned good, but IE for OS X is chiseled spam. It frequently fails to load pages correctly-- or at all-- and spins off into never-never land for no apparent reason. Not to mention being slow, slow, even on a fast dual-processor machine.

IE for OS 9 was the best browser of its day. IE for OS X is an unqualified disaster.

Safari rocks!

[Knife_Edge]

I just wanted to mention that after using Safari for a few minutes now, it appears to be amazing. The browser is so much faster it is like a hardware upgrade. On my 500mhz iBook I have never been able to scroll smoothly through pages on any browser. Now scrolling is almost perfectly smooth! Great job with the browser Apple!

Re:Safari rocks!

[Drakonian]

I hear it has popup blocking, which is nice. Does it have any tabs?

Re:Safari rocks!

[King Babar]

I hear it has popup blocking, which is nice. Does it have any tabs?

No tabs, no type-ahead. Some cookie control, but not as nice as Mozilla's. These are all fixable things, of course, but I'm worried that somebody will think that tabbed browsing is "not the Apple way". :-(

Re:Safari rocks!

[nzgeek]

Man, you apple whores are unbelieveable!!
Who else would put up with not being able to scroll smoothly through any pages? If it were a PC app there's be a huge uproar about how shite it was.
But no, when it's Apple it's a "Great job" when they repair a fundamental flaw or improve something that was never working optimally in the first place.
Jeeze.

Re:Safari rocks!

[artemis67]

It has popup blocking, but not tabs. That's surprising, because the tabbed browsing feature is more useful in OS X than in any other OS supported by Mozilla because of OS X's lack of a true taskbar.

Also missing is image management to block banner ads. Understandable, though, that a commercial product by a major tech vendor wouldn't include that feature. They don't want to cleanse the internet of all advertising.

And there's no messagebar at the bottom of the window, so when you mouse over a link, you can't see where it leads to without clicking on it. Very annoying.

All-in-all, not bad for a first beta release, though aside from some cool boomark management features, is missing a lot of features that the rest of us take for granted. Apple has their work cut out for them if they are serious about making this browser a contender.

However, it begs the question of why Apple is spending money on Safari in the first place. It's not like Internet Explorer is the only browser for the Mac; there's a bunch of great stuff out there like OmniWeb, Mozilla, Netscape, Chimera, iCab, Opera, and who knows what else.

Is the long-range plan to integrate Safari as tightly with OS X as IE is with Windows? They've got a LONG long road to cover before THAT happens.

Or maybe it's not that grand; maybe Jobs just wants a browser that has tight integration with the the iApps.

Time will tell.

Re:Safari rocks!

[Alex Thorpe]

The message bar for the bottom of the window is off by default, but easily added from the View window.

A few things could be added, though. There's no spell checker, like OmniWeb and Mail use, and it doesn't remember passwords like Chimera and Mozilla do. But it's fast, and it's a Beta. I did have to change back to OmniWeb to post this, as Safari kept timing out when I clicked on anything here, though to be fair, Slashdot seems to be pretty Slashdotted right now, and it took OmniWeb about three minutes to open this window.

I'll play with Safari some more, but I'll stick with OmniWeb for everyday use.

Re:Safari rocks!

[PsychoSpunk]

Man, you apple whores are unbelieveable!!
Who else would put up with not being able to scroll smoothly through any pages? If it were a PC app there's be a huge uproar about how shite it was.

Man, you pc schmucks are unbelievable!! Who else would think that Apple's at fault for the turtle quality speed that IE puts us through? If you actually used a Mac, you'd know that there is a huge uproar in how shitty the speed of IE is, but it's not like Apple can fix that. Well, except for releasing their own browser independent of Microsoft. Which is a "Great job" that they flipped the bird at BillG and co. at this keynote.

Re:Safari rocks!

[Anonymous Coward]

The browser is so much faster it is like a hardware upgrade.

Don't give Apple's marketing department any new ideas. They are already several miles away from reality, and accelerating.

Re:Safari rocks!

[entrox]

There's no spell checker, like OmniWeb and Mail use

That's not an OmniWeb feature - its built into OSX. Ctrl-click on a text field, select spelling and activate "Check Spelling As You Type". It's just not enabled by default. I'll give you the passwords and timeouts (and yes - I'm writing this in OmniWeb right now ;)

Re:Safari rocks!

[Alex Thorpe]

Let's see if... ah! It does work! Spell checking! Delightful. This may become my default browser yet, though it'll take a while to move all my bookmarks over. Thanks for the tip.

Re:Safari rocks!

[entrox]

No tabs, no type-ahead.

No type-ahead? Let's see.. typing "sl".. ooh.. completes to "slashdot.org". Or isn't that what you mean with type-ahead?

I'm worried that somebody will think that tabbed browsing is "not the Apple way".

Oh, you mean people like me? People who switched because of consistency - people who like the "one document - one window" metaphor as specified in the Apple HIG?
I'm using (used) OmniWeb and don't miss tabs at ALL! Ctrl-click on the browser icon and get a list of windows; cycle only through those windows with ctrl-~ and ctrl-shift-~. Hide the browser with ctrl-h; show the browser and hide all OTHER applications with cmd-opt-click on the icon.
There is absolutely no need for stinking tabs.

Re:Safari rocks!

[entrox]

Use the preview button, Luke!

That should be cmd-~, cmd-shift-~ and cmd-h, not ctrl.

Re:Safari rocks!

[nellardo]

There's no spell checker, like OmniWeb and Mail use,

What, to spell-check what you put in web forms? To me, that's a relatively minor feature, but then I'm a gud speler :-) You can add that with WordService (lots of text goodies that appear in the Services menu). Should be pretty easy for Apple to turn it on themselves in the Edit menu.

and it doesn't remember passwords like Chimera and Mozilla do.

but I'll bet it will by FCS. Chimera at least does it by putting the passwords in the user's Keychain. Try running /Applications/Utilities/Keychain Access and you'll see all your web passwords there. Since that's also where your iTools password goes and whatnot, I'd expect somewhere Safari already talks to the Keychain.

Re:Safari rocks!

[mac-diddy]

After using Safari for a few hours, it's already kicked Omniweb out of my dock.

My only concern so far is how it handles cookies. Omniweb allowed me to accept any cookie and then delete it on exit unless I explicitly said keep it. That way, I could keep my google preferences, but delete the amazon.com tracking cookies. Safari has an all or nothing sort of attitude. I can either accept all cookies, accept no cookies, or be asked for each one. None of these are really acceptable.

After some poking around, I found that all the cookies are stored in an XML file found in ~/Library/Application Support/WebFoundation. For now, I'll have to setup my LogoutHook to remove this file for me. Better yet, anyone know of an easy way to parse the XML and only keep the cookies I want?

Re:Safari rocks!

[Dixie_Flatline]

Does it at least have a method to switch windows within the application? When I had an OSX machine (sold, sadly. I miss it) Command-~ would cycle through open windows in most apps. That would take up some of the slack for NOT having tabbed browsing.

Re:Safari rocks!

[sg3000]

> Ctrl-click on a text field, select spelling and
> activate "Check Spelling As You Type"

Cool! Too bad this trick doesn't work in Chimera. That is the only thing that Omniweb has on Chimera. If Safari can add support for tabs and the Mac OS X keychain, then it will be ready for me.

Re:Safari rocks!

[chrsbrwn]

Note that there is a button in the Preferences dialog (under the security tab) to show your cookies. From there you can select and delete the ones you don't want.

Re:Safari rocks!

[Anonymous Coward]

I want to have it happen automatically. For example, accept all cookies, and one exit remove them unless I have explicitly said to keep it. The "button" doesn't do that. It only deletes that current cookie. It doesn't remove all future cookies.

Re:Safari rocks!

[ickyfreak]

naw... i doubt it... gui guidelines say no mdi shit
(multi document interface) so one page/one window

i dont mind i hate tabbed browsing :)

change of topic... is khtml any good? any comparisons on the web comparing it to netscape/mozilla/gheckko?

Gareth

Re:Safari rocks!

[macshit]

The screen shots of Safari look very nice, they make every other web browser I've seen look pretty clunky. Apple's always been good that that...

What about the renderer, though? The apple Safari web page claims that it's both much faster and more accurate than any other, but of course they'd say say that; how does it really stack up against gecko, for instance? Should I be using konqueror instead of mozilla?

Re:Safari rocks!

[Arandir]

Nope, no tabs. Which means that I won't use it even if it were so advanced it could cook my dinner, then clean the dishes afterwards. There's no way in the world the public is going to accept it without tabs.

Re:Safari rocks!

[jonadab]

> No type-ahead? Let's see.. typing "sl".. ooh.. completes to
> "slashdot.org"

You're typing in the location bar. He was talking about type-ahead
find, which is roughly analogous to the incremental search feature
in Emacs (albeit less powerful in several major ways). With your
cursor in the page, you just start typing, and it searches forward
and finds the first occurrance of what you typed -- either in a
link (if you just start typing) or anywhere (if you start with a /
before typing what you want to find). It's fairly useful, although
I must confess that I haven't gotten in the habbit yet of using it
in Mozilla; I still find myself hitting Ctrl-F and Ctrl-G a lot.

Re:Safari rocks!

[Anonymous Coward]

Im using safari on a g4 imac and it seems to be at least twice as fast the Mozzila browser. Its alot little faster than Explorer 5.2

Re:Safari rocks!

[Twirlip of the Mists]

Command-tilde works in any application that uses AppKit, I believe. I think it's yet another free feature that comes with using the Cocoa API. I'm not sure if Carbon apps get it for free, or if they have to implement it themselves.

To test this, I fired up Project Builder and created a new Cocoa document application. I didn't do anything, I just built and ran the new app. I opened a couple of windows, and command-tilde switched between them. So it's a feature that you get for free when you use Cocoa and AppKit.

Re:Safari rocks!

[iNub]

Are you on drugs? The public isn't going to accept it? No, you won't accept it. "The public" is mainly using Internet Explorer. If you're going to bitch about something, at least 'fess up to it being your own opinion.

Re:Safari rocks!

[Arandir]

No, I'm not on drugs. I'm conducting an experiment instead.

I post the most hyperbolic post I can imagine, then see how many people believe I'm serious. Why? To demonstrate that Slashdot readers wouldn't recognize sarcasm if it bit them on the scrotum.

Re:Safari rocks!

[Anonymous Coward]

So far the rendering seems to be pretty good, but not perfect. I'm seeing some problems with items that should be centered on a page (they sometimes get displayed with left justification instead). It blows the doors off of other Mac browsers in the speed department. The left alignment bug seems to be intermittent, so your mileage may very. Not bad for a beta. After a few minutes I tossed every other browser out of my dock. Having genuine Aqua widgets on form objects is a refreshing change of pace from Exploder (and from the odd looking Aqua-like widgets used by Mozilla in the Classic theme). It doesn't suffer from the font rendering problems I have noticed with OmniWeb, and it scrolls pages with embedded images without the strange artifact problems that Exploder seems to have. Chimera comes closest to matching it, but seems quite a bit slower.

Re:Safari rocks!

[Bert64]

Just how new versions of windows repair fundamental flaws in previous versions, and yet people still rave about them. Compare win9x to 2k/xp, the instability of 9x could surely be considered a fundamental flaw, 2k/xp are actually pretty good, not quite upto the standard of most unix systems but orders of magnitude better than their previous effort.

Re:Safari rocks!

[entrox]

OK - thanks for the correction. Incremental Search is one of my favorite Emacs features, so it would be a welcome addition!

Re:Safari rocks!

[mr_exit]

It seems like they have a new mission to make their apps faster, and seriously faster.

one of the reviews of it in this thread said it was like a hardware upgrade. Apple are having such trouble keeping up in the MHz game that they are realising that lean mean code will stop people jumping ship.

good on them too, when the new power4 based chips come out we will then have fast code AND fast machines.

Re:Safari rocks!

[Anonymous Coward]

Like dry humor, sarcasm is hard to distinguish in text form. So excuse us for taking you seriously. :)

Re:Safari rocks!

[King Babar]

It's fairly useful, although I must confess that I haven't gotten in the habbit yet of using it in Mozilla; I still find myself hitting Ctrl-F and Ctrl-G a lot.

The incremental find text is a bit nicer than ctrl-F since it doesn't drag up a little dialog that (in Mozilla 1.2 under OSX) you can't close without using your mouse.

Incremental highlight link is an absolute miracle; try pulling up yahoo.com; there's no way you want to reach for the mouse to hit one of the hundreds of tiny links. But you can just type "fin" to leap to finance (just hit carriage return) and find out that your stocks have plummeted yet again...

I think type-to-highligh-link (is this a better name?) is extremely useful, inutitive to any Mac user who used to do the same thing in the file selection dialog, and all around worthwhile.

Re:Safari rocks!

[King Babar]

I'm using (used) OmniWeb and don't miss tabs at ALL! Ctrl-click on the browser icon and get a list of windows; cycle only through those windows with ctrl-~ and ctrl-shift-~. Hide the browser with ctrl-h; show the browser and hide all OTHER applications with cmd-opt-click on the icon. There is absolutely no need for stinking tabs.

I'm a big fan of cmd-~ myself, and use it a lot in all apps that support it. Hiding is cool, too. BUT! I disagree that tabs are useless. First off, tabs provide visual feedback for what pages are in your "working set" which is very useful if you often have 6 or 8 of them up there. Second, tabs provide a way to organize your browsing hierarchically. When I'm using BLAST at ncbi, I like to keep all of my search/results/whatever pages in one place *in a separate window* from the rest of my life.

I can understand your argument about "one document - one window", but I think there is a stronger principle of "avoid clutter" and "provide visual feedback" which the tab metaphor does a beautiful job of doing. In my opinion. The great thing with tabbed browsing in Mozilla is that you can choose not to use it at all and it doesn't ever get in your way.

Re:Safari rocks!

[jonadab]

> The incremental find text is a bit nicer than ctrl-F

It is; I just haven't got used to being able to do that in my web
browser yet. I hit Ctrl-F out of habbit. The other thing is, the
incremental search in Mozilla (typeahead find) is lacking some of
the features that would make it really useful. In particular, with
Emacs incremental search you can type the first part of what you're
looking for, hit Ctrl-S a couple of times to move forward through
a couple of instances, type a little more onto your search string,
hit Ctrl-S a couple more times, realise you went past the instance
you were interested in, hit Ctrl-R to go back to it... The feature
in Mozilla is not quite so mature in its implementation.

> since it doesn't drag up a little dialog that (in Mozilla 1.2
> under OSX) you can't close without using your mouse.

That's a Mac thing. You can't do Jack Squat(TM) on a Mac without
using a mouse. In fact, you can generally use a Mac better with
no keyboard than with no mouse. This has been true at _least_
since the days of System 6, and it's only any different with OS X
if you intend to spend most of your time in Terminal.app or using
X11 apps that have been ported over. On any other platform, _all_
dialogs can be closed without using a mouse. (On Win32 or Gnome,
there are no fewer than three distinct ways to close any dialog with
the keyboard.) This is nice; in the summer around here (though not
this last summer; we had a dry year) it often gets sufficiently
humid that the mouse is basically not usable, and I have a tendency
during August to set the mouse on a shelf and use the keyboard
pretty much exclusively until fall comes and dries things up. The _only_ thing I've discovered I can't do effeciently without a mouse
is image editing. (Though optical mice are getting pretty cheap
these days; this year when summer rolls around I might just get
one of those, and then if I need to use Gimp I can...)

Re:Safari rocks!

[iNub]

Heh. I'm only a slashdot reader because I'm bored.

NOTE FOR THE ORNERY GEEKS AMONG US:

Sarcasm does not translate into plain text!

Disinformation

[WatertonMan]

Wow. You have to hand it to Steve. Great disinformation to make people expect the worst (paid upgrades) and then doesn't do it. Then the rumors that had been around (Chimera browser) are partially right and we get elements of Konquerer in OSX. Also, contrary to rumors, there were new machines building on where Apple is still as strong, if not stronger, than the PC world: the laptop market.

(Remember that laptop CPUs typically don't run as fast as desktop equivalents - especially when on battery. Most OSX laptops are as fast as PC equivalents. So the CPU gap doesn't apply)

I can't wait to download the new iApps (sorry, iLife) as well.

Re:Disinformation

[imadork]

I can't wait to download the new iApps (sorry, iLife) as well.

Did you just say you can't wait to get a life? Heh, the RDF must be stronger than I thought...

Re:Disinformation

[cuyler]

iLife the new package of iTunes 3, iMovie 3, iDVD 3 and iPhoto sells for $49.95. This could be the upgrade that the rumour was about.

Re:Disinformation

[salesgeek]

Also, contrary to rumors, there were new machines building on where Apple is still as strong, if not stronger, than the PC world: the laptop market

Apple's laptops are cool. But there are tier two PC makers that sell more laptops than Apple does. Apple consistently leads most surveys (IDG, PCDATA, etc...) in RETAIL sales, but consistently is in the bottom three of the top ten in total laptop sales. Why? Because corporate PCs are not sold through retail, where labels like IBM and Fujitsu are weak and names like Sony and Apple are hot.
Personally, I'd rather have a mac than a PC, though.

$G

Re:Disinformation

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder when AT&T will sue for infringement on their mLife?

Maybe it's sufficiently different that it be only 4 letters away. That opens the opportunity for:

aLife, for the sci-fi crowd

eLife, for the net-addicted

qLife, for that omnipotent feeling (while waiting in line)

uLife, for the sheep

yLife, for the suicidal

Re:Disinformation

[Hadlock]

hmm. random thought. the OSX port of X11 probably came about in their attempts to get an X11 browser to run, and decided to just go ahead and polish it up a bit and release it to the public. neat.

Re:Disinformation

[Juanvaldes]

but ONLY iDVD is not available as a free download.

come one safari with me

[eddiecore]

this browser that they speak of is ridiculously quick. i've used omniweb, mozilla, internet explorer, chimera, opera and netscape. steve's benchmarks are frighteningly accurate.

Favorite Part

[Spyky]

My favorite part of the keynote:

Gigantic screen behind Steve Job reads:
"Open Source
We think it's great"

-Spyky

Re:Favorite Part

[sg3000]

> "Open Source We think it's great"

At some point, didn't he even say that unlike some people, he really likes Open Source?

Couple that with Safari (to knock out Internet Explorer) and Keynote (to give PowerPoint a run for its money), and Apple's making quite a few jabs at Microsoft.

See, competition is a good thing after all!

Re:Favorite Part

[Anonymous Coward]

It would be great if they'd actually release all their stuff as open source, as well.

Sure, they've released Chess and (parts of?) Safari, but quartz and keynote and the iLife apps and a gazillion others are still proprietary.

Re:Favorite Part

[dadragon]

You mean the things that people buy Apples for? Wow.. who'd think they wouldn't release those as Open Source. Apple has to protect its investments. Darwin isn't nearly as major as Quartz or Aqua. They're where MacOS X really shines.. its ability to run Unix apps beside Photoshop and MS Office.

Re:Favorite Part

[Anonymous Coward]

Mine was when Steve was showing off keynote(the resentation software) and he's all "Ohh look...gold bars and shit"

Re:Favorite Part

[Anonymous Coward]

My favorite part of the keynote:

Gigantic screen behind Steve Job reads: "Open Source We think it's great"

I got a screenshot of that...

http://www.cs.swt.edu/~rp1002/img/WeLoveIt.jpg

--Richard

Safari...

[hysterion]

So now there is Mail.app, and Safari . (Taking a page from the O'Reilly bookshelf...?)

Both great ideas, but... it's not like we'd lack mailers/browsers anyway, is it? What I'd really like to see them (or someone) do is an integrated mail+news reader. Like (pine, emacs, the good'uns...) but graphical too. ("For my woman" ;-)

So you can keep one library for mail and news articles, and search/move stuff around there to your heart's content.

It only makes sense, since the format is basically the same, and news traffic often intermingles with mail anyway. People sending you private answers, etc.

Right now, Mozilla is the only one that comes close -- afaik, it's the only integrated mail+news reader in Aqua. The bliss of saving a news post onto your imap box, drag & drop.

But why, oh why, does it have to keep also the browser in the same process? This soon gets humongous (nearly 100 Mb at the moment), and why should your mailer crash at the whim of any miscoded javascript site? That doesn't make sense.

So here's to Mail+News.app -- or else, a nice Minotaur/Thunderbird.

Re:Safari...

[ellem]

Oh crap no right click back? ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Maybe now ...

[Quixotic Raindrop]

people will stop bitching about the lack of OS X user support? Come on. If you only sold your product, for $100, to 1% of the OS peopulation, you'd sell 50,000 units. That's 5 million dollars in income. That easily covers the cost of porting, machines, and lab time. Quark, what the f*** are you waiting for?

Re:Maybe now ...

[Anonymous Coward]

If it were only that simple. The 5 Million is gross revenue. Now take away wages, overhead, advertising, marketing, taxes, packaging, distribution, etc., etc., etc., and what you've got left is way less than $5 million. Perhaps you'll make 10% once it's all said and done...if you're lucky.

So all that effort for maybe $500K? Maybe. For a large organization...that's nothing.

Re:Maybe now ...

[Anonymous Coward]

But right now they will make $0, and lose their customers to someone else.

Anatomy sized notebook

[redtail1]

Call me shortsighted, but I don't see the market for the 12" Powerbook. I think they'll merely be cannibalizing the sales of the existing iBook models. Consumers will be confused, product lines blurred.

Re:Anatomy sized notebook

[Graymalkin]

Well since the Powerbook starts at the price point the iBook ends at it can't really cannabalize sales. With the new low end Powerbook you end up with a G4, faster memory, a better video card, built-in Bluetooth, and an optional Superdrive. I don't really see how that compares to an iBook that is three hundred dollars cheaper in terms of market overlap.

Re:Anatomy sized notebook

[grue23]

the 12" powerbook is shiny and ibooks are plastic. apple consumers shouldn't be confused.

the market is for people who want a more powerful machine in a small package, which is a market that does exist.

Re:Anatomy sized notebook

[bwalling]

Call me shortsighted, but I don't see the market for the 12" Powerbook. I think they'll merely be cannibalizing the sales of the existing iBook models. Consumers will be confused, product lines blurred.

The 12" PowerBook won't sell at all. Why pay $500 more for +67MHz and a G4? Screw that. Just buy an iBook. The only people that will buy that thing are people that want the cheapest possible way to get the SuperDrive notebook.

Re:Anatomy sized notebook

[rattler14]

Actually, it bridges the gap between the iBook quite nicely. I've talked to a couple people about this before, that would really like the features of the powerbook, but couldn't spend $2400+ on one, but the iBook didn't have enough horsepower for their liking... sometimes size is a considerations as well. all and all, the market for it may not be huge, but it definitely helps the people caught in between the old iBook/Powerbook lineups

Re:Anatomy sized notebook

[redtail1]

Okay, points taken. The differences are clear to me now.

Re:Anatomy sized notebook

[geniusj]

They've needed this -- a small G4 based notebook.. They couldn't do it with iBook because they want to keep the iBook at that price point.

-JD-

Re:Anatomy sized notebook

[Blaise]

Well, there's still a 550 $CDN difference between equivalently spec'ed iBooks and TiBook 12". Personnally, the 550$ for a CPU, GPU VRAM and Airport port is worth it, but i don't necessarily think many people will agree with me. I personnally see them as responding to two different markets: iBook want basic laptop (e.g. students, non-computer users) where as the TiBook is for Powerusers who want portability and don't like the sticker price of it's big brothers.

I for one will be picking up a TiBook 12" RSN...

The form factor of the iBooks appealed to me, but the lack of power put me off.

the TiBook is exactly what i was looking for.

Re:Anatomy sized notebook

[blugu64]

Actually I'd much rather have the 12" Powerbook, for one I like the smaller screen rather then having a 15" or 17" screen. Mainly just because I like my laptop to be small, and light. I'd also much rather have a Powerbook rather then the iBook because of the G4 chip. Just a personal opinion though.

Re:Anatomy sized notebook

[GiMP]

Some people like the look of the TiBooks, some WANT the small form-factor, others just hate the cheaply made keyboards on the iBooks.

The iBooks, although a bit nicer looking since the clamshell design, feel like toys made of cheap plastic.

I'd rather have my G3 Powerbook with firewire (pismo) than a new iBook.

Re:Anatomy sized notebook

[King Babar]

Call me shortsighted, but I don't see the market for the 12" Powerbook. I think they'll merely be cannibalizing the sales of the existing iBook models. Consumers will be confused, product lines blurred.

The 12" PowerBook won't sell at all. Why pay $500 more for +67MHz and a G4? Screw that. Just buy an iBook. The only people that will buy that thing are people that want the cheapest possible way to get the SuperDrive notebook.

Well, time will tell, but I think the new 12" PowerBook will do fabulously well. In addition to the faster G4, you get 802.11g vs 802.11b, bluetooth, S-video and VGA out, a bigger hard disk that's ATA/100, more memory, faster graphics, a lighter notebook, and QuickBooks bundled. Oddly, you don't get Firewire800. In my world, the total speed bump (which I'm guessing is substantial) is worth $300, 802.11g is worth $50, the bigger faster disk is $50 (it's a PAIN to swap an iBook disk), the memory is worth $30, and the S-video/VGA out (with true dual display) is worth $100. I personally don't care about QuickBooks. So, I think this will definitely be worth it to some people even before you get to better looks and snob appeal, although the 12 inch iBook is a beautiful product in its own right (I own one :-)). The odd computers out in this case are, I think, the 14.1" iBooks.

Re:Anatomy sized notebook

[Anonymous Coward]

more memory

actually, it is same 128mb onboard with 512mb max in 1 slot.

Re:Anatomy sized notebook

[Anonymous Coward]

In addition to what others have mentioned, an iBook won't let you connect a second display, not just mirroed, at up to 2048x1536, like the 12" PB.

Re:Anatomy sized notebook

[Anonymous Coward]

Because G3 doesn't have AltiVec... Which is required for Quartz Extreme... which really does make a performance difference.

After all, it isn't just about the MHz...

A G3 and a G4 of the same speed perform noticeably different with OSX. (Assuming modern graphics cards which is a given with a new product.)

Re:Anatomy sized notebook

[skeedlelee]

I make this comment way, way down below so it will probably be missed.

You missed one of the biggest speed improvements.

The RAM is much, much faster in the new PowerBook vs. the iBook. The 12" PowerBook is using 266MHz DDR, the iBook 100MHz SDRAM. I'd pay about $100 for that difference on its own (at least). >2.5-fold increase in RAM speed will make a huge difference in performance, probably about as much as the G3->G4 change.

We're talking Mac's here, I would have thought someone would've mentioned that its not just MHz that matters by now:)

Re:Anatomy sized notebook

[Anonymous Coward]

How about the people who like the 12" iBook for its portability, but who want one with a SuperDrive, or with dual monitor support, or with 802.11g?

Don't assume that the market for this thing will consist solely of "price is everything" shoppers.

Re:Anatomy sized notebook

[thedbp]

are you kidding me?!?!

i want one i want one i want one i want one ... for a cool 2.1K you can sweeten the deal w/ a superdrive. take it home and hook it up to my bad ass 17" CRT Apple Studio Display for serious design work; its small enough to fit under the monitor. add my Pro keyboard and Graphire, and i've got something worlds better than what i have now with built in bluetooth and a 54Mbps AirPort card. and its so freaking small and light that it isn't something i have to decide whether or not i take it with me.

it just comes with me.

now i'm sorry i bought that palm! this would pretty much replace it. i have no need for a slim-down under-powered pocket pc when i can have something like this so gosh-darned small.

Re:Anatomy sized notebook

[King Babar]

You missed one of the biggest speed improvements.

The RAM is much, much faster in the new PowerBook vs. the iBook. The 12" PowerBook is using 266MHz DDR, the iBook 100MHz SDRAM. I'd pay about $100 for that difference on its own (at least). >2.5-fold increase in RAM speed will make a huge difference in performance, probably about as much as the G3->G4 change.

Well, I won't know about the performance until I see one, but as far as I know, the DDR memory system implementation is still that weird suboptimal one forced upon them by memory bus issues. In other words, you might get some improvement in memory bandwidth, but not as much as you might like. When I tried to "guesstimate" the improvement overall, I factored in the DDR, but not as highly as the G4, which is pretty key for things like iPhoto in particular (or so it seems to me).

We're talking Mac's here, I would have thought someone would've mentioned that its not just MHz that matters by now:)

That's true, but given enough truth serum I have to report that something even as old and klunky as the IBM Thinkpad A21p just completely stomps on the current G3 offerings in terms of speed...on the other hand, that sucker is huge, has a wireless card that sticks out almost 2 inches, and runs Win2K. *That's* the stuff that matters to me.

Re:Anatomy sized notebook

[MrMickS]

One word - Japan

Apple sold the old PowerBook 2400 almost exclusively in Japan where there is a definite market for small footprint laptops.

Re:Anatomy sized notebook

[Halo1]

Quartz Extreme has nothing to do with AltiVec, it only depends on the video chipset (and the Radeon 7500 in the iBooks supports Quartz Extreme just fine).

Re:Anatomy sized notebook

[CptTripps]

Are you kidding? I'd be all over an iBook if it had a G4 in it, and this lets me add a SuperDrive! that 17" is cool, but I don't feel like lugging something that large around with me everywhere. I've got a Ti-book now, and love it, but I'll be ordering that 12" PowerBook as soon as the put the iluminated keyboard in it.

Re:My soon-to-be rejected submission

[stratjakt]

>> Check out the QuickTime movie where they bookmark Slashdot!

I hear the sequel is even better: you can see Apple's marketing department cutting a cheque with 'slashvertisement' in the memo section.

Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[Bonker]

Why KHTML rather than Gecko, I wonder?

Of course if they were both perfectly compliant, it wouldn't matter, but neither one is.

Gecko has a larger install base with existing Netscape, Moz, Chameleon, Galeon, and Phoenix installs, and is more likely, with AOL converts, to have a larger market share and have more 'feature-rich' pages designed to render properly in it. Both are cross-platform.

(BTW, have you used Phoenix .5 yet? Whoowee! 6mb download and faster than IE in every way in Win2000)

The only thing I can figure out here is that Steve really likes KDE or he really doesn't like the MPL. Maybe he's paranoid about helping Steve Case any more than need be by speeding Moz/Netscape acceptance.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[owenc]

I think since QT was ported to OS X, it's easier to use native widgets with KHTML rather than gecko. Chimera for instance does not use real aqua text entry and widgets within the web page, but a theme that looks like they are.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[WatertonMan]

I was thinking about it, and it may be that we can expect more KDE elements to make its way to OSX. With the excellent X11 for OSX and the failure of the "Switch" campaign, it may be that Apple thinks getting Linux users to switch might be wise. He can't compete in price/performance at the moment for desktop. However he can't help but notice the raving for OSX at O'Reilly and here at Slashdot of late. Further the laptops are selling quite well amongst Unix users. (A place where Apple can compete better)

Anyway, if I were to make a prediction it is that there will be more cross-pollination between KDE and Apple. (There are several elements in Konquerer and other KDE features that I'd like to see in the Finder)

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[DrXym]

This choice sounds utterly insane to me. With the greatest respect, khtml is nowhere near as good as Gecko in terms of it standards support or behaviour or stability especially when dealing with some of the crap sites out there in the world. Run it through a few random sites involving nested tables, CSS or frames and it quickly screws up rendering.

What the hell were they thinking? Perhaps it's a little faster or smaller, but that sounds like a small payoff when you end up with a browser that is broken and doesn't work properly on a large number of sites. Chimera shows that Gecko can make an amazing browser on OS X so why they've jumped over is mind boggling.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[WatertonMan]

Just to go along with my other comments, the GT tookit (heavily used by KDE apps) makes porting KDE style software to full Aqua apps very easy. As I said, I expect a lot more of that to happen.

Everyone who expects OpenOffice to make its way to full Aqua interface really ought to wonder whether KOffice won't make it first. Porting KOffice would likely be much easier than porting OpenOffice. (Not that I'm saying it will happen, mind you)

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[fritter]

I consider this a pretty Good Thing overall though, especially if AOL adopts Gecko. With decently large groups of people using a range of different rendering engines, designers will have no choice but to stick to open standards instead of writing to one specific browser.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[tempest303]

My thoughts exactly.

May the moderators see thy wisdom, too, and act accordingly. *hint*hint*

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[Rob Kaper]

As a matter of fact, Gecko is more strict in its parsing than KHTML, which supports a number of IE extensions for real world sites.

So while technically Gecko might be more noble and "better", in real life Konqueror might very well work on more sites. From my experience, it ends up 50-50 anyway. On some sites Konq is faster or more accurate, on others Gecko wins, on most I couldn't tell.

Using Qt's native Aqua widgets might have been a huge factor too, instead of faking that look with XUL.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[fault0]

It's pretty simple really. khtml is far smaller and lighter than gecko is. Thus, it's quite a bit easier to achieve large levels of integration with the underlying OS with khtml than with gecko.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[Rob Kaper]

Here's why.

Quote:
"When we were evaluating technologies over a year
ago, KHTML and KJS stood out. Not only were they the basis of an
excellent modern and standards compliant web browser, they were also
less than 140,000 lines of code. The size of your code and ease of
development within that code made it a better choice for us than other
open source projects. Your clean design was also a plus."

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[BandwidthHog]

Bullshit. At least as regards the widgets. I've got Jaguar skinned like Platinum: boxy and with no menu alpha.

Even Java based apps such as LimeWire and FurthurNet use the skinned widgets, although I think I noticed FurthurNet using alpha blending with my platinum menus. I have yet to see any app show me canned Aqua graphics, unless you count the window widgets in QuickTime Player.

The text entry part I can't say for sure either way, but I don't 'feel' a difference. I've been noticing lately how universal option-arrow key support in text editing has become, and I guess Chimera mimics that perfectly as well.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[GiMP]

It is genius.

Mozilla may not have the greatest share of the market, but it may be the best browser available. This is why Apple DOES NOT want Mozilla. Sounds crazy? Not really.

Jobs realizes that competition will create better software. It would certainly be possible for Mozilla to become so popular and 'standardized' on the Unix and MacOS operating systems that development of KHTML would slow down and eventually die. If you have a company behind KHTML like Apple while AOL is behind Mozilla, you can expect a war to brew.

Mozilla is a great browser, KHTML is not bad.. but unless they become more popular and gain more press, Microsoft won't bother to compete.. they won't have to.

If KHTML and Mozilla begin a new browser war, first.. new OSX users will be using KHTML, Linux/Unix geeks will be using either Mozilla or KHTML. Apple still does have a large userbase, using KHTML could really put a dent in Microsoft. KHTML's competition would make Mozilla better and more popular, even in Microsoft Windows.

Apple may have just sparked not only a browser war, but a rejuvination of computing without Microsoft. I won't be surprised to see 30-40% of the web using non-IE browsers within a year.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[King Babar]

This choice sounds utterly insane to me. With the greatest respect, khtml is nowhere near as good as Gecko in terms of it standards support or behaviour or stability especially when dealing with some of the crap sites out there in the world. Run it through a few random sites involving nested tables, CSS or frames and it quickly screws up rendering.

Well, I'd noticed it seemed to be doing okay on most CSS pages I'd tried, so I was *going* to say, "nyah, nyah", but then I figured I go to the ever-useful CSS1 test suite pages.

Oops...on the very first test, it fails to display even the test page correctly and the dialog tells me it's choking on the illegal mimetype text/html. Very ungood.

Well, it's beta, and Apple has never seen a wheel it didn't want to re-invent at some point...

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[mcamen]

Quoted from an email of Don Melton (Apple) to Dirk Müller (KDE) (http://lists.kde.org/?l=kfm-devel&m=1041970923186 39&w=2)

"The number one goal for developing Safari was to create the fastest web browser on Mac OS X. When we were evaluating technologies over a year ago, KHTML and KJS stood out. Not only were they the basis of an excellent modern and standards compliant web browser, they were also less than 140,000 lines of code. The size of your code and ease of development within that code made it a better choice for us than other open source projects. Your clean design was also a plus. And the small size of your code is a significant reason for our winning startup performance as you can see reflected in the data at http://www.apple.com/safari/ ."

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[DrXym]

Gecko doesn't fake the look of Aqua, it uses the Apple's own rendering engine to draw the buttons exactly as they should look. So if a page contains a checkbox field, Gecko will tell Aqua to render the checkbox at x, y, width, height with the style appropriate for its checked / unchecked / depressed / enabled / disable state and so on. I haven't looked at QT but I would not be surprised if did exactly the same. If it's not doing exactly the same, then Safari is going to have all sorts of fun ordering issues when it encounters forms in DIV elements and so forth. Since Chimera has a native UI, both browsers are the same with regards to the trimmings around the engine.

CSS also allows form elements to be stylized. Using native widgets makes that nigh on impossible to support.

In terms of performance, my experience is that a good browser is one which handles the best and the worst of the web equally well. Konq / KHTML always struck me as one that coped well with the middle content but took a nosedive with anything else. I've downloaded Safari now to play with so I might revise my opinion with more exposure.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[freak]

Actually, can you append the konqueror version you are using? I just tried and it passed everything for me. I'm using Konqueror from the KDE 3.1 branch. In any case, it's not a vanilla copy of khtml, you can find a change log here. http://lists.kde.org/?l=kfm-devel&m=10419691231632 6&w=2.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[Anonymous Coward]

Chimera doesn't support the built-in spell-checker, though. Try typing something and right-clicking on a misspelled word.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[owenc]

Have you used chimera to type in any large text boxes? there is definately a difference, especially on older systems. Safari's text entry boxes have support for cocoa services like spell checking. Also the blue focus blur goes around the active field. Keyboard navigation is also OS X-like.
Earlier builds of chimera used the mozilla modern theme, and I understand they simply switched to an aqua theme.
IANAC though, so I may be wrong about the widgets, as I'm not involved in the mozilla project.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[Anonymous Coward]

Switch campaign has not failed. People are not replacing hardware at the pace they did 2 years ago. According to Steve's numbers (who knows if the are real?) that more than half of people that visit the Apple stores are PC users.

In the end though, big ad campaing and the market share is still ~5%, and sliding in education market (other than Maine).

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[IdahoEv]

Designers will have no choice but to stick to open standards instead of writing to one specific browser.

Yeah, whatever. Designers have clients. Clients make demands. You see:

Client: I think our front page should have flashing news scroller, a slide show, and dancing girls that follow the mouse!

Me: Trust me, you really don't want that. It will make your page slow to load, and incompatible with numerous browsers. I could do it in Flash, but that would cost a lot.

Client: But the dancing girls are so cute! We'd sell more widgets! Don't use flash; I hate downloading plugins.

Me: I feel a great need to pop a clue in your a**, but I really need the money.

Client: Don't forget to make it play "Achy Breaky Heart"!

Me: Grr!

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[wcbrown]

I've been going over some CSS tests with Safari and IE5.5/Windows and Safari beats IE handily. The KHTML doc cited has got to be outdated and unreflective of Apple's enhancements.

I think Apple's release of the source back into KHTML will reveal some serious work.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[Anonymous Coward]

> Apple may have just sparked not only a browser war, but a rejuvination of computing without Microsoft. I won't be surprised to see 30-40% of the web using non-IE browsers within a year.

Stop smoking crap. Apple is fragmenting open-source browser and will render those even less significant.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[Phroggy]

I think since QT was ported to OS X, it's easier to use native widgets with KHTML rather than gecko. Chimera for instance does not use real aqua text entry and widgets within the web page, but a theme that looks like they are.

Just because Qt was ported to OSX doesn't mean Safari is using it.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[King Babar]

Actually, can you append the konqueror version you are using?

I'm not; I'm using the safari public beta based on khtml. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[Arandir]

Gecko has a larger install base with existing Netscape, Moz, Chameleon, Galeon, and Phoenix installs, and is more likely, with AOL converts, to have a larger market share and have more 'feature-rich' pages designed to render properly in it. Both are cross-platform.

Hmmm, good arguments for keeping Internet Exploder! Larger installed based, larger market share, more 'feature-rich' pages, and cross-platform.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[Anonymous Coward]

No!

Hold back your feelings. This is good. Yes, Gecko may be the superior engine. But diversity and choice are superiorer. Think about it: with Apple supporting KHTML and AOL supporting Gecko, there are two alternatives that enjoy major support.

This means that Microsoft, and more importantly, the mono- or duopoly web development mindset lose some of their strangehold on the market. And ultimately this keeps the web's promise alive better than just using a more compliant engine.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[IamTheRealMike]

Quote:

Translation: we realised that we had no chance of building our own layout engine or javascript engine, so we had to choose between Gecko/Spidermonkey and KHTML/KJS. The Mozilla technologies were better, but we could understand the KDE ones. In particular, Mozilla is full of cross platform code that makes it harder to adapt and integrate into our OS, and it relies upon its own portable runtime and rendering layers. When we started this project, Chimera didn't exist.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[entrox]

Safari doesn't use QT - they made a wrapper around the KHTML parts, which need parts of KDE or QT called KWQ (pronounced "quack") so they're not using QT at all, but instead using OSX directly. And yes, that wrapper will also be made open-source and released as part of WebCore soon.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[meekjt]

Good point!! Mod this up!

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[Anonymous Coward]

Consider, please, that several of the Safari developers have extensive experience working with Mozilla and Gecko/Chimera internals.

They specifically chose not to use it.

I think that speaks for itself regarding the portability and maintainability of the code bases involved.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[dmaxwell]

That won't work for any application that uses self generated SSL certificates. IE on the Mac can only use certificates that have been hard baked into the app itself. It does not offer a user a dialog to accept an arbitrary certificate. We use such an app internally in our district and I have to have a non-IE browser on the Macs to use it.

This IMHO is a severe shortcoming of IE for Macintosh.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[hondo77]

Translation: we realised that we had no chance of building our own layout engine or javascript engine, so we had to choose between Gecko/Spidermonkey and KHTML/KJS.

Why not use existing tools if they are good enough?

The Mozilla technologies were better, but we could understand the KDE ones.

Who wants to work with software you can't understand? 140,000 lines of code vs. bigger? I'd take 140,000 if I could, too.

In particular, Mozilla is full of cross platform code that makes it harder to adapt and integrate into our OS, and it relies upon its own portable runtime and rendering layers.

Who's fault is that? Certainly not Apple's.

When we started this project, Chimera didn't exist.

Who cares? Safari rocks. A big, bad commercial softwarre developer uses an open-source project and gives back to that community and there are still people who whine. It boggles the mind.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

designers will have no choice but to stick to open standards instead of writing to one specific browser.

Wrong. Now instead of writing to the standards, which Gecko supports very well, they'll have to go back to browser sniffing and serving up something that the KHTML engine can render.

It sucks, it's a pain in the ass, it won't help designers make standards complient sites. It will create more hacks if anything.

AFAIK, Gecko doesn't have any non-standards components anyway. If you were talking about IE's rendering engine, then you would have a valid point.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[TheCrazyFinn]

They already had their own Layout Engine. They simply decided to go with one that had support for current technology as the in-house browser was a bit old (Dates back to the mid/late 90's)This is actually the second Browser Apple has produced.

And no, I don't remember what it was called, gort a copy lying around somewher though.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[grammar nazi]

GiMP (10923),

Please don't take offense to the following:

I just love it when people who have no business concepts come up with crackpot reasons for why corporations do what they do. A lot of times these people make me laugh with their logic.

First of all, Jobs doesn't want competition. He's the CEO of a multibillion dollar company. Do you honestly think he believes in a competitive, efficient market? Sure, he'll say and do whatever he can as long as MS is where it's at, but only as long as he's in second place.

Remember, the Macintosh computer is a franchise market (read: Harley Davidson) with Apple at the helm. Companies with a monopoly over a franchise market (which Apple has) have little that will erode their marketshare. The Harley Davidson example is the textbook case. Basically, Harley Davidson has 0 competition from Honda, Yamaha, whoever in their main market. Harley's main market happens to be "Harley Davidson Motorcycles". Similarly, Apple has 0 competition from other computer makers in the Macintosh market. Everytime somebody tries to release something that emulates a Mac, they get crushed by Apple's litigation thugs. Send an email to themes.org if you disagree.

Now if we can rule out betterment of society from CEO Jobs' goals, we should be able to assume that profit is his ultimate goal. All of his plans revolve around those little 3 step underpants gnomes plans. in this particular case, we have:
1. Use KHTML
2. ????
3. Profit!!

Now we just have to find the elusive step 2. from the 3 step plan. You, GiMP suggest that he wants a competitive browser market to create a better browser that will drive people to the Macintosh platform, thus, creating profit. Hmmm. I don't think that having the best browser will generate any profit. How much profit has MS made from IE (if we haphazardly assume it's the best browser)? None. Has dominance with IE led to profit with IIS? IIS has yet to generate profits for MS, so again, No.

Here's my idea of why Apple chose KHTML, and although it may be just as crackpot as yours, at least it's business based crack (the expensive stuff that Wall St Tycoons snort) as opposed to opensource hippie crack. I think that Apple sees a switch campaign as a good way to increase revenues so he needs to get more people to "switch". One main reason that people don't feel comfortable with OS X is because all of the browsers suck. I use OS X and I'm justified in saying that ALL CURRENT OS X Browsers suck. I currently use a collection IE, Navigator (chimera?), Mozilla, and OmniWeb. Every one of them sucks differently and together, there's usually one that's right for each job, but I can't use one for everything. Steve Jobs knows this and says, "Holy shit! How can convince people that OS X is the best platform when people can't even browse the fscking web?" CEO Steve is smart though. He realizes that the slow web browsers in OS X (IE and Mozilla) don't suck as much as the fast web browsers (Navigator and Omniweb). He decides that Apple's going to do it's typical amazing thing and surprise everybody with a fast webbrowser for OS X that doesn't suck! Has Steve succeeded? From other comments on this page I'd say not yet, but it's a beta version and CEO Steve put a serious team of hackers behind his browser.

Why did he choose KHTML? Probably because it was the easiest *fast* html renderer to modify and create a new web browser with. CEO Steve knows that reinventing the wheel costs too much in today's economy.

PS. I'm very happy that Apple chose an open source browser and is giving back to the community the way that they are. I'm happy for the KDE people (all of them) for creating a browser and desktop environment that was capable for a company like Apple to use the code base.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[Anonymous Coward]

CyberDog

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[angelo]

You mean the option-arrow presses in Chimera that stop at punctuation when going forward? Yeah, that's useful. I'm just happy to finally have an osx browser that supports ^H as backspace instead of go back a page.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[astrosmash]

I think since QT was ported to OS X, it's easier to use native widgets with KHTML rather than gecko. Chimera for instance does not use real aqua text entry and widgets within the web page, but a theme that looks like they are.

KHTML doesn't use native widgets. Neither does IE, or Mozilla. And now that Opera 6 is obsolete, no modern rendering engine uses native widgets (with the exception of some list boxes in IE -- but that's IE's problem).

In order to support all of the wacky things one can do to with CSS, web browsers must render widgets on their own, just like all other HTML elements.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[Arandir]

Wow! You just blew right over my sarcasm. I keep forgetting that Slashdot readers are humour impaired, and are incapable of recognizing it without several dozen emoticons.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[ealar dlanvuli]

If you listened carefully during the Keynote, apple has been working on Safari since before Gecko and KHtml were really different at all. Mozilla was around 0.9 when they started so it would have been a close call.

I personally think they should probably try switching to Gecko sometime if the gap keeps growing, but then again the improvments they sent today really helped make khtml a solid browser alternative. Having 3 solid browsers never hurt anyone

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[ealar dlanvuli]

You know.. now that you said that.. I would buy a K-Office box for like $40. *ponders that thought*.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[IamTheRealMike]

Who cares? Safari rocks. A big, bad commercial softwarre developer uses an open-source project and gives back to that community and there are still people who whine. It boggles the mind.

Eh? Who's whining? That's basically the logic they followed, I'd bet. It's not bad logic.

I will whine now though, this sicophantic "and wow! they have given back their changes too!" thing is dumb, even on their website Apple say something like "and because we're good open source citizens, we have even given back our changes!".

Yet KHTML and KJS are under the LGPL, so they had to do that anyway as a legal obligation. Why are people surprised by this?

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[billDCat]

I took a look at the source to that test page. Its not the CSS that is messing it up, its the tag that they are using to load the test html.

<OBJECT height="100%" width="100%" border="0" type="text/html" data="test11.htm">...</object>

Seems a strange way of loading what is essentially a floating frame. If you manually change the address of the current page to the page shown in the data attribute "http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/CSS1/current/tes t11.htm", it renders fine.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[egghat]

>Apple may have just sparked not only a browser war,
>but a rejuvination of computing without Microsoft.
>I won't be surprised to see 30-40% of the web using
>non-IE browsers within a year.

I would.

Apple has kind of 5 % market share, other OSes sth. like 2 % (of course it's even lower ...).

So these 2% have to use a non-IE-browser, simply because that's not available.

And these 5% Apple users won't switch, as Safari is still beta and IE for the time being is better (KHTML still needs a lot of work to become a good as Gecko now is). So don't expect Safari to be the standard browser on OSX sooner than 9 to 12 months.

Netscape/Mozillas market share on Windows is below 10%. While I love Mozilla/Phoenix I don't think there will be too many people swhitching from IE because the reasons to switch aren't big enough. IE works on all of the pages OK. That's Good Enough (tm).

If we can get near 30% market share the big move has to be AOL switching to Gecko.

Most other browser will stay below 1% Market share. Don't get me wrong, but I think that Netscape 7.0 is installed on more computers than Mozilla. There's (of course) not a single (technical) reason for this, but, hey, what technical knowledge do you expect from a normal computer user?

Bye egghat.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[Anonymous Coward]

> Yet KHTML and KJS are under the LGPL, so they had to do that anyway as a legal obligation. Why are people surprised by this?

What I find suprising is that they refused to use gnutar as installer format (they used pax instead). This was surprising because NeXTstep used targz.

The rational was that they did not want (L)GPLed code in the base distribution. There have been huge flamefest on the developers lists about that. (They havec GPLed code in the developer tools, of course). This is also the suppoed reason why they choosed *BSD and not linux, as the underlying kernel (that, and the fact that tevanian already did the mach/BSD merge once).

Having a company like apple to bend over GPL for inclusion in the base distribution is impressive. They must be truely deseperate.

[Note: my opinion is that if there was any BSD HTML renderer, they would have used it. RMS seems to be right: the viral (L)GPL nature will detroy non-GPL alernative and force commercial software producer to cooperate]

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[Rob Kaper]

Most other browser will stay below 1% Market share. Don't get me wrong, but I think that Netscape 7.0 is installed on more computers than Mozilla. There's (of course) not a single (technical) reason for this, but, hey, what technical knowledge do you expect from a normal computer user?

I installed NS7 and not Mozilla on my Linux box for the simple reason it simply works, and Moz did not, when it comes to Java and Flash. NS6 was crap, but NS7 really had some QA behind it. So I downloaded both, tried both for a short while, and kept the one that worked best for me.

No doubt that Moz has since improved though, so I'll have to check it out again (I use it when I am making a complete clean KDE build and am left without Konq for an hr).

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[Fugly]

Part of being a good consultant or designer is managing your customer's expectations and steering them in the right direction. They've hired you because they know they aren't capable of doing what you do. You will always have to make some little concessions but if you pick your battles and present sensable arguments, you'll make very few.

If somebody really earnestly demands that you create a piece of shit site, the contract probably isn't worth it anyhow. What's more valuable, a week's pay or your reputation?

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[Smitty825]

Interesting points about why Apple created their new Browser. However, I think that the primary reason that Apple began creating their own browser was because Apple is realizing that they need to seperate themselves from Microsoft.

When they started this project, the only browser choices for OS X were Mozilla. OmniWeb and IE (Chimera may have just been starting up) --Note, IE OS X wasn't very good, Mozilla was still slow and Omni wasn't very compliant.

Apple also released their own version of "PowerPoint", and I would expect them to release their own version of office (Maybe KOffice?).

Last summer, Apple & Microsoft's 5 year agreement for MS to develop software for the Macintosh had expired. "Analysists" have now said that Apple has around 3% market share, and that MS wouldn't lose much money if they were to stop supporting the Macintosh platform.

I honestly think that Apple is just creating a "plan B"!

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[King Babar]

I took a look at the source to that test page. Its not the CSS that is messing it up, its the tag that they are using to load the test html.

...

Seems a strange way of loading what is essentially a floating frame. If you manually change the address of the current page to the page shown in the data attribute "http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/CSS1/current/tes t11.htm", it renders fine.

I didn't think it was the CSS per se (since it was whining about mime types), but I didn't see how this html could be that objectionable compared to some you see on, well, slashdot. I just checked at w3c.org, and OBJECT is certainly an element that should be handled correctly under HTML 4.01. As far as doing this rather than a frame, I'll confess that I didn't know that OBJECT could be so handy; frames stink in my opinion, and this is a cute (and presumably blessed) device for exactly this kind of thing.

Given that konq apparently renders this correctly, I'm presuming this was a bug in khtml that got fixed after Apple secretly started banging on the code, so it should be easy to fix.

Thanks again for the nice detective work.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[hondo77]

Yet KHTML and KJS are under the LGPL, so they had to do that anyway as a legal obligation. Why are people surprised by this?

It's not that they're giving back the source, which they, obviously, had to do anyway. It's that now that the project is out they are determined to work with the KHTML community instead of just forking and going off on their own merry way. Apple doesn't have to be a good citizen but they know that it is to their advantage to do so. Good for them.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[falameufilho]

This choice sounds utterly insane to me.

Insanely utter, as Steve would put it.

Re:Why KHTML rather than Gecko?

[rthille]

Why did he [Steve Jobs] choose KHTML? Probably because it was the easiest *fast* html renderer to modify and create a new web browser with. CEO Steve knows that reinventing the wheel costs too much in today's economy.

God Forbid that Steve was the one picking KHTML. I hope that some at least 3 levels down, who still knows how to read code picked KHTML, not Steve, who reads balance sheets and market trends.

How about quid pro quo? (QT player for Linux)

[jvmatthe]

Sure, they're giving back source improvements for things they're getting from the free software world, but how about giving something we've been asking for nicely for years...a native Linux QuickTime player and plugin? I don't really think most people will care that it's not free; I'm fairly hardcore about free software, but will admit right here for all to see that I'd use a non-free, Linux native QuickTime player/plugin from Apple.

Yes, I know about CrossOver. Thanks anyway.

Re:How about quid pro quo? (QT player for Linux)

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple don't owe jack shit to the Linux community.

If Apple "owed" an operating system a QuickTime Player, it'd be FreeBSD. The Linux community has nothing but scorn for Apple, it's the BSD community that has welcomed them.

Re:How about quid pro quo? (QT player for Linux)

[Fnord]

Have you seen the quicktime support in mplayer?

Re:How about quid pro quo? (QT player for Linux)

[MochaMan]

Sure, they're giving back source improvements for things they're getting from the free software world, but how about giving something we've been asking for nicely for years...a native Linux QuickTime player and plugin?

Apple cannot release Quicktime for Linux without a Linux port of the Sorensen codec... Apple licenses that codec as part of Quicktime. They didn't develop it, and they don't develop it now. It's doubtful that they'll make a Quicktime player for Linux because they'd have to spend money to do it. For Windows, it makes sense. If you want to be the de facto media standard, you have to grab the other 95%. Quicktime would disappear without the Windows player. Unfortunately, a Linux player would only be an act of kindness on their part, it wouldn't have any appreciable benefit given the cost of porting and maintaining a Linux version.

Re:How about quid pro quo? (QT player for Linux)

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, apple actualy save money from using
free software. a low invest in porting
and maintening a cross platforme QT look
fair to me.

A crossplatforme QT will also help them to
not been crush byt microsoft media thing...

If QT where avaible to all platforme why
would i, as a web developer, use microsoft mp?
I dont think flash player would had go so far
whitout it cross platforme feature.

-Bob

Re:How about quid pro quo? (QT player for Linux)

[Anonymous Coward]

It uses Apple's documented QuickTime SDK, like any QuickTime client should.

Down with Open Source, Up with Open Software.

Re:How about quid pro quo? (QT player for Linux)

[Anonymous Coward]

they just gave back 1 years worth of progress on the engine. While that is their "duty" as gpl citizens, it is a hell of a statement for endorsing and furthering the open source movement. that is doing their part.

Innovation...

[Eric_Cartman_South_P]

...without any monkey-boy dancing on stage. I've never been blown away (easy there, wise-guy) before by a presentation like the one Apple just had. The 17 inch PowerBook is my next computer. And my desktop and laptop will appear on www.ebay.com very soon. Such an amazing computer running BSD (right?) at the core, with software that just works, and most importantly to me, a great GUI with respect for design huristics and usability.

Oh, my spalling does suck, but nevermind about that :)

The keyboard design is brilliant (there's a pun there, I think). The only thing missing is a little camera somewhere to enable Video Conferencing (which I use a lot with all my friends and some of my clients). But no complaints.

I probrably don't have anything smart to say right now... too busy drooling after having watched the entire live stream of the keynote. But if anyone wants to throw links to great places new Mac ownsers can go to (such as http://fink.sourceforge.net/ ) I'd LOVE to see your thoughts, links, suggestions, etc.

Re:Innovation...

[Anonymous Coward]

>> Oh, my spalling does suck, but nevermind about that :)

"Get over here, you sunofabitch phonics monkey!!!"

Heh heh!

Re:Innovation...

[mbbac]

Oh, my spalling does suck, but nevermind about that :)

You won't have to worry about that much longer. Spell-checking is pervasive on Mac OS X. You'll be able to spell check in the textareas you type into on Slashdot.

But if anyone wants to throw links to great places new Mac ownsers can go to (such as http://fink.sourceforge.net/ ) I'd LOVE to see your thoughts, links, suggestions, etc.

Mac DevCenter and VersionTracker.

backlit keyboard?? f'n cool

[SirSlud]

Okay, I'm sure some poster will happily link to prior art, but that keyboard is fucking cool.

Automagically adjusting itself depending on the ambient light ... fibre optic light strips ... the Christians are going to have a whole other sexuality to denounce this year, cause between the aluminum casing, the 1440x990 screen, this just might be the year where people are finally caught literally humping their powerbooks. Look at those pics, I know I would!

Re:backlit keyboard?? f'n cool

[ethereal]

Hmmm, hope anodized aluminum is easier to wipe down, then...

Re:backlit keyboard?? f'n cool

[jc42]

Backlit looks cool, but is purely cosmetic. What would be just as cool, and actually useful, would be for the symbols on the keys to light up. Then you could use it in the dark without problems when you forget where the ~ or | key is on this @#$@&% keyboard. This isn't a trivial concern when you routinely work with several different machines, all with different keyboard placement of some chars.

Re:backlit keyboard?? f'n cool

[2nd Post!]

Um, how is a backlit keyboard different, exactly, than your proposal for lighted symbols?

Re:backlit keyboard?? f'n cool

[megabulk3000]

Um, the symbols on the keys do light up, from what I can tell from this movie here (QuickTime required)

Re:backlit keyboard?? f'n cool

[Jord]

Try watching the quicktime videos. The symbols on the keys DO light up as well,

Very very sweet addition to a laptop.

Re:backlit keyboard?? f'n cool

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's your prior art: http://www.wired.com/news/mac/0,2125,56409,00.html

Re:backlit keyboard?? f'n cool

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay, I'm sure some poster will happily link to prior art, but that keyboard is fucking cool.

It's STILL missing several standard keys. There's like 3 inches of space around it on the 17-inch and they couldn't find room for PgUp/PgDn and Forward Delete?

If that other troll were here he'd paste in his rant about how it's hostile to unix users.

Re:backlit keyboard?? f'n cool

[Anonymous Coward]

fn+up/down. I agree it's not elegant, but at least it's there.

Alternatively you can use the (gdi slashdot accept unicode...) apple and option keys to do different tasks.

Re:backlit keyboard?? f'n cool

[Bishop923]

Check out some of the vids on the Apple site, the symbols on the keys DO light up.

Re:backlit keyboard?? f'n cool

[dascount]

You know, Apple pioneered the realm of person-puter relationships a while back:
Apple Unveils New Macs to Satisfy Mac Lovers

The only thing I need to know, how did they fit either the IHole or IPole technology into a 1" thick laptop?
Even the average /.er has to be bigger than that...
right?

Re:backlit keyboard?? f'n cool

[Trotskyite]

Apple doesn't own the patent on backlighting the symbols.

What next

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple dumps aqua for kde? That would be good, kde 3.1 blasts gnome and windows out the water, and its keramik gui is even better than Aqua!

Blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

Puleeez.... enough of this Apple Mac wannabe crap, what happened to the day when we actually had storie aboot Unix and cool tech stuff.

Bah

Re:I gotta say it

[Anonymous Coward]

It must make you feel special to start flamewars, eh?

Oooh! I'm special I'm special! Look at me! I'm a /. Flameinstigator!

Wow

[bogie]

"Jobs also introduced Safari, a new Mac OS X browser based on the KHTML rendering engine from KDE "

I can't believe they would not adopt Chimera, especially with David Hyatt now working at Apple. No offense to KDE which I hold oh so dear over any other WM system, but Gecko is just a better engine. Its truly cross platform, has a huge amount of momentum behind it, and AOL would essentially be doing R&D for free for Apple. Not to even mention the fact the Netscape/Moz has much much better industry suport,a ton of addons and a much larger user base. If this is true I'd just call the move foolish.

Re:Wow

[axxackall]

but Gecko is just a better engine. Its truly cross platform

I don't think Steve Jobs loves any cross-platform engines. Everything that works on x86 is a poison for Apple.

As for BSD fragments in OSX... BSD was dying anyway. Now BSD is dying on x86 even faster than before as BSD users would love to be addicted to candies of OSX and to switch from x86 to PPC for that.

Re:Wow

[Drakonian]

Well "better engine" may be a bit of a subjective term. It looks like they put a lot of effort into upgrading the KHTML engine. If their cooked benchmarks are anything to go by, it is faster than Chimera. Interesting choice though.

Re:Wow

[ender81b]

Most likely they used KHTML because it *wasn't* tied in any way, shape, or form to a major corporation. At least that would be my guess. Maybe, also, they thought KHTML rendering engine was better than mozilla's, who knows. But I would place money on the reason behind choosing KHTML over Gecko being the fact that KHTML isn't backed by some major corporation whose interests might run contrary to apple's.

Re:Wow

[protohiro1]

They're not. Its faster than IE...and its pretty nice, but I think I'm going to stick with chimera for the time being...tabs and a little better speed.

Re:Wow

[tupps]

Have a good look at the bar graph on this page:
http://www.apple.com/safari/
I see a comparison with IE, Netscape 7.01 and Chimera 0.6.0
Hopefully this sort of thing will only increase the competition in the browser space on all platforms. We haven't see anything really new out of MS with IE for a couple of years. However Mozilla, Opera and other buddies have been bring out some good new stuff. Have to say tabbed browsing does rock and everyone who uses it falls in love pretty quick.

Re:Wow

[damiam]

Everything that works on x86 is a poison for Apple.

So KHTML doesn't work on x86. Right.

Re:Wow

[bmetzler]

I can't believe they would not adopt Chimera, especially with David Hyatt now working at Apple.

Presumably they would use khtml because it was already ported to QT. QT is well supported while gtk is not very well supported yet. That means that Mozilla would take much more work to integrate.

Its truly cross platform, has a huge amount of momentum behind it, and AOL would essentially be doing R&D for free for Apple.

OS X really isn't cross-platform. It's not like Safari is ever going to run on anything else other then OS X. Also, AOL isn't providing any more R&D then Apple is receiving with khtml. Apple has to do the work to integrate whatever they chose with OS X anyways.

-Brent

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait for Apple contributing back to KHTML - in a version or two it won't work on x86 as before :)

If you don't belive - compare hardware (i.e. firewire) drivers on FreeBSD and OSX.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

No.

It's not foolish. It forces web developers out of their single- or duo browser mindset. Which will keep the web a lot more interesting and truer to its original design.

This is not foolish. It's vital.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

"I can't believe they would not adopt Chimera, especially with David Hyatt now working at Apple."

I'd ask you to read what you said. Guys who've worked on the Mozilla and Gecko code made the decision as to what rendering engine to use, and what rendering engine not to use.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you stupid or something? OS X doesn't use BSD drivers at all. Of course its drivers don't work on FreeBSD (and vice versa). That has nothing to do with CPU choice.

OS X drivers are all built using Apple's IOKit, an object oriented driver framework / API. IOKit is quite processor-neutral, and many IOKit drivers do in fact work just fine when compiled for x86 (just how did you think the x86 port of Darwin worked? magic?).

Re:Wow

[Josuah]

The email between the Safari team and the KHTML and KJS developers helps explain why they did this. Links to the email correspondence can be found at this KDE News posting.

Basically, the codebase for Konqueror and KHTML is very small and easy to work with. They had also done a lot of work with KJS prior to working on Safari. They did in fact make some changes to make the renderer more like Gecko, in addition to a whole lot of performance and bug fixes. It also looks like they put in support for Netscape-style plug-ins (or something) but I don't think that is part of KHTML.

There is no benefit from picking a product that is cross platform, since that is not the goal of Safari. In fact, that would add more cruft and complexity to the code when Apple developers have to go through it. I don't at all see how Mozilla has better industry support. Who is supporting it? Apple would have to support a Safari based on Mozilla anyway since it becomes an Apple product. Not sure what you mean by add-ons. If you mean plug-ins, it looks like they already have Netscape-style plug-in support (although I could be wrong). All those toolbar add-ons and weird things that put post-its on your web page are only for IE as far as I know.

Re:Wow

[Grahf666]

No, but it doesn't run on Windows.

Re:Wow

[Grahf666]

Honestly, I take all benchmarks with a grain of salt (especially Apple's).

Re:Wow

[Arandir]

I can't believe they would not adopt Chimera

I can't believe people are actually whining over this. If you don't want to use Safari then use Chimera! Geez...

Re:Wow

[ealar dlanvuli]

It is far faster than chimera, especially at displaying cached pages. It beats chimera almost 20% at rendering hall of fame slashdot articles for greatest size.

It's significantly faster than IE.

posting this from safari

[elliotj]

first impressions:

* no tabbed browsing - wtf?
* no way to import bookmarks - got a hundred in chimera, time to poke around and see if I can figure a way to do it
* nice default fonts
* respects internet preferences like homepage
* nice brused look
* looks clean

17" AlBook:
* what's up with the keyboard. they're using the same sized keyboard for the 12" and 17" models. wtf? the 17" has so much more space, and a bigger keyboard would be a great feature .... much better than backlighting!

Re:posting this from safari

[tassii]

no way to import bookmarks - got a hundred in chimera, time to poke around and see if I can figure a way to do it

Drag and drop. Open Chimera's bookmark list and drag it to Safari's bookmark list. Done. Very sweet.

Re:posting this from safari

[poot_rootbeer]

* no tabbed browsing - wtf?

I don't get tabbed browsing. I can only pay attention to one page at a time, why would I want to have multiple pages open but only be able to look at one?

Besides which, UI guidelines promote a "one window, one document" correlation. Microsoft's MDI was an abomination, one they're thankfully beginning to move away from, but a very similar school of thought persists in concepts like tabbed browsing.

Re:posting this from safari

[Mars Saxman]

I'm asking you, since you seem to care about it, but it's not the first time I've wondered. Why is "tabbed browsing" considered a standard feature all of a sudden? I tried it when I first downloaded Mozilla, but didn't see the point. Is it really that big a deal to replace a stack of windows with a stack of tabs?

-Mars

Re:posting this from safari

[kitzilla]

Chimera bookmarks are XML, right? Perhaps you could open the bookmark file in something, then saving as HTML. If there's anything left, you could import from there.

I'll be playing with this tonight, also. But I doubt I'll abandon Chimera.

Re:posting this from safari

[Anonymous Coward]

Tabs are nice because you can be reading a web page and click links and have them load in the background, so it doesn't interrupt you. When you're ready to switch, the page is already loaded.

At the same time, in windows, it doesn't clutter up your start bar so you can still read the text beside the icons.

I use both new windows and tabs. It just makes it easier to group web pages.

Re:posting this from safari

[damiam]

When I first heard about tabs, I thought the same thing. However, once I got used to them, I couldn't live without them.

First of all, tabs don't clutter the taskbar. This doesn't really apply to OS X, but in general, it's nice. 1 "Mozilla" window with labeled tabs is better than "M..." "M..." "M...", etc. Not only does the lack of tabs keep you from telling your pages apart, ir also makes it difficult to identify other programs you have open, cause they're all contracted. Tabs make it much easier to find what you want.

Also, tabs make it really easy to open links in the background. With a three button mouse, you can set up Mozilla and friends to open a new tab when you middle click a link. This means you can go down a page, click all the links that look cool, and then go visit them, without returning to the original page each time. Without tabs, you have to either right-click, "open in new window", and then return to your previous window - three times the work.

Another good aspect of tabs is popups. If (for whatever reason), you haven't disabled them, tabbed popups are much nicer than windowed ones. They don't pop up in your face, or go hide as popunders. You just see a new tab added to the bar, which you can close at your leisure.

Finally, there's no such thing as a "stack of tabs". Every tab takes up the full window. This is what really irritates me about IE - each new window opens unmaximized, even if the parent is maximized. This means that every time I open a window, I have to manually maximize it. Tabs have no such problem.

Re:posting this from safari

[Anonymous Coward]

I haven't tried the drag & drop the other poster mentioned (silly me I was trying to drag and drop the bookmarks.html file). But since everything involved is XML (bookmarks.xml or bookmarks.html, as well as safari's bookmarks.plist), you should be able to write an XSLT stylesheet to do it in about 5 minutes .. anyone?

Re:posting this from safari

[ethereal]

Spoken like someone who's never waited on a page to load, or maybe just has a lot of time on his or her hands.

Re:posting this from safari

[Anonymous Coward]

that doesn't work for me.. what version of Chimera are you using? I can only drag one at a time, no folders, not even two or three at a time.

Re:posting this from safari

[raju1kabir]

I don't get tabbed browsing. I can only pay attention to one page at a time, why would I want to have multiple pages open but only be able to look at one?

For so many reasons.

• For instance, when I read your posting and decided to reply to it, I center-clicked the "Reply" link and then kept reading what I was doing while Slashdot's "Post Comment" page loaded. Once the tab color changed to indicate it was done loading, I clicked over to write this. Not only did I not have to wait for the reply page to appear, but when I was done, I didn't have to wait for the original page to reload before I could keep reading.
• Any time I'm reading a page with a bunch of interesting links (maybe a news article or something), I'll center-click them all and then, once I've finished the original article (thus preserving my train of thought) I can read through 'em, one by one, and they're all pre-loaded and ready to go.
• When I want to compare a bunch of pages (maybe pulling up 7 or 8 country profiles from the World Factbook or something) I can center-click all the links in rapid succession and then flip back and forth between them with ease.

It saves me an incredible amount of time and enables me to manage viewing a substantially larger number of web pages. It's the only browser innovation in years that's excited me at all.

Re:posting this from safari

[Anonymous Coward]

It _is_ a big deal to replace a stack of windows with a stack of tabs...

When I read slashdot, I can load all of the links from the current story in the same window, but in different tabs (in the background).

Meanwhile, I'm reading a blog in a different window - again, I can open all the links in the same window, but in different tabs.

In a third windows, I've got the JavaDoc up for a project - and I'm opening all the classes I'm interested in - yup. In the same window, but in different tabs.

It allows a coarse level "grouping" of URLs. I've only got to choose between 3 windows to get to a general subject area.

Re:posting this from safari

[grahamtriggs]

When using Windows, I never bothered with tabbed browsing - there was no point, as I effectively had it with the taskbar anyway...

However, now I use MacOS X, tabbed browsing has really become useful... there are many times / reasons why I want to have multiple pages open - switching between windows within an application is a bit of a pain (ie. going into the 'Windows' menu, then selecting the window I want)... much easier with tabs - just click the tab you want...

In fact, I would be quite happy to see tabs implemented for document windows in all apps...

Re:posting this from safari

[kitzilla]

Regarding the importation of bookmarks, I found this tip on the Chimera board. Haven't tried it yet, but it beats drag-and-drop:

---

For importing Chimera bookmarks, its a little tricky, but only takes a minute:

1) Export bookmarks in Chimera (Manage Bookmarks menu item)

2) rename the file 'Favourites.html'

3) Trash: Users:(Yourname):Library:Safari (folder)

4) Trash: Users:(Yourname):Library:preferences:com.apple.saf ari.plist

5)Replace the file favourites.html in Users:(Yourname):Library:Preferences:Explorer with your exported file.

6) Launch Safari

Re:posting this from safari

[Butt]

For instance, when I read your posting and decided to reply to it, I center-clicked the "Reply" link and then kept reading what I was doing while Slashdot's "Post Comment" page loaded. Once the tab color changed to indicate it was done loading, I clicked over to write this. Not only did I not have to wait for the reply page to appear, but when I was done, I didn't have to wait for the original page to reload before I could keep reading.
Any time I'm reading a page with a bunch of interesting links (maybe a news article or something), I'll center-click them all and then, once I've finished the original article (thus preserving my train of thought) I can read through 'em, one by one, and they're all pre-loaded and ready to go.
When I want to compare a bunch of pages (maybe pulling up 7 or 8 country profiles from the World Factbook or something) I can center-click all the links in rapid succession and then flip back and forth between them with ease.

Hmm, I do all this anyway, but just use command-click to pop multiple windows on IE and now Safari. Not quite as elegant as tabbing, but certainly not a big enough difference to stop me using an otherwise better browser.

Danny

Re:posting this from safari

[Anonymous Coward]

1 "Mozilla" window with labeled tabs is better than "M..." "M..." "M...", etc.

Maybe I should post a screenshot of Mozilla with a lot of tabs open. They all say "M..." "M..." "M...", etc.

Re:posting this from safari

[Anonymous Coward]

Without tabs, you have to either right-click, "open in new window", and then return to your previous window

Or just middle click and open in a new window. Granted, the new window will open with focus, but you make it sound much worse than it really is.

Re:posting this from safari

[Twirlip of the Mists]

I do all this anyway, but just use command-click to pop multiple windows on IE and now Safari.

You can also use cmd-shift-click to pop windows into the background. Command-click opens new windows in the foreground, which isn't always exactly what you want.

Re:posting this from safari

[anarkhos]

Bookmarks can be imported from using the "Show All Bookmarks" command in the Bookmarks menu. Look at the left column.

I'm still waiting for Apple to provide a panel in System preferences for file type mappings. Grr.

Re:posting this from safari

[Have Blue]

You haven't listed anything I can't do by command-clicking in Safari (open link in new window). Or command-shift-click to open a new window BEHIND the current window (discovered that just this moment while trying to come up with an argument for this post :P ).

Re:posting this from safari

[Kesh]

Importing from Chimera (borrowed from great posts on AppleInsider:

1) Export your bookmarks from Chimera 2) Import them into IE 3) Trash your Safari items from the Library folder and Preferences folder (a com. item, I believe). 4) Launch Safari again to re-import your IE bookmarks.

Re:posting this from safari

[ottffssent]

Since for once I don't have mod points to give away, I thought I'd comment instead.

As someone with a 10.5" hand spread (about the 98 or 99th percentile, for those who're counting), I definately echo your "what the hell?!?" upon seeing that dinky keyboard floating in an ocean of wasted space. I'll grant that the backlit keyboard looks awesome, but for Apple to spend their engineering talent making a pretty keyboard over a functional one is both in character and unforgivable. I'm not asking for a separate number keypad and pgup/pgdn/home/end/ins/del block, but a full-sized set of function keys, arrow keys, and the like is an absolute must. There was enough room for both on the old powerbooks, and there's even more space on the 17" behemoth.

Re:posting this from safari

[Anonymous Coward]

What is the bid deal about tabbed windows. Their okay if you are a big mouse user, but it really is easier to just use command tilde to switch. Plus you don't have a bunch of junky tabs cluttering up the interface.

BTW, Safari respects the space key as a "page down;" however, unlike IE's option + space for "page up," Safari uses shift + space.

(I'm posting from Safari too.)

beta

[simpl3x]

it's a beta! and, it is quite nice. i just downloaded it, and it is realtively speedy, but the google bar makes the difference. i missed that moving from a windows machine. ui is clean also, and i expect that it will improve markedly by release! very cool... as is the x11! quite nice!

Posting this from Safari.

[Erik K. Veland]

While I'm definitly going to sell both my current macs and buy the new 17" lust-object, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the public beta of Safari is one hell of a pre-released alpha.

The interface is super-nice, and the features outstanding. But the browser rendering? Well it sucks donkey-bottom. I've sent in no less than six bug-reports in the first three minutes I used it. It didn't load my css on my home page at all, macnn.com is missing tables. A surprise that they even found ten good sites to show in the keynote. I'm really looking forward to this browser maturing, but for now Chimera 0.6.0 is the way to go.

Too bad though, Safari is - like I said - real sleek in the interface way. And fast too. But heck, I've waited this long for Chimera to mature, so why not wait a little more. It's heck of a lot more promising than just a few screenshots of a future Apple-browser.

Re:Posting this from Safari.

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't see any differences in rendering between Chimera 0.6.0 and Safari Beta on your website or on www.macnn.com?

more apple contempt for its customer base

[jamespancake]

Instead of upgrading the iBook line they introduce a new machine which features a processor that, according to my damaged memory, was introduced at least a year ago for $500 more than the iBook it should have gone in to. Apple loves you. They really, really do.

Also, pay no mind to the fact that the iBook they'd like you to buy has a graphics card that doesn't take advantage of the finder-level hardware graphics acceleration they built into sytem 10.2. You'll be cooler than a Windows/*nix/whatever user. That's all that matters.

Re:more apple contempt for its customer base

[Anonymous Coward]

Amen my brother amen. I think most of these bandwagon jumping-on morons have already drank the kool-aid and taken the purple pill so tryign to talk logic to them (the I know it's a 500 mhz processor but it seems a lot faster cause it looks cool crowd) is simply a waste of time.

Warmest regards

Re:more apple contempt for its customer base

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong. All of recent iBooks (at least since the 700 Mhz ones) have AGP ATI video and use Quartz Extreme.

Re:more apple contempt for its customer base

[Halo1]

Instead of upgrading the iBook line they introduce a new machine which features a processor that, according to my damaged memory, was introduced at least a year ago for $500 more than the iBook it should have gone in to.

You should try using your damaged memory a little more, then you'd notice that the price of the iBooks has dropped by $100-$200!

Also, pay no mind to the fact that the iBook they'd like you to buy has a graphics card that doesn't take advantage of the finder-level hardware graphics acceleration they built into sytem 10.2

There is no "finder-level hardware graphics acceleration". You're probably thinking about Quartz Extreme, which is window compositing-level hardware graphics acceleration. And guess what: the Radeon 7500 (either with 16MB or 32MB) in the iBooks supports the required features just fine.

Re:more apple contempt for its customer base

[zx-6e]

*buzz* Nice try, my iBook runs Quartz.

12" Powerbook Very Cool! But...

[SlashChick]

I watched the Quicktime keynote with great interst, hoping that Jobs would finally introduce a 4-pound notebook. I've been waiting for one for a while, so I'm really excited that Apple finally introduced one!

Unfortunately, however, the notebook doesn't include DVI-out support, so my monitor would fall back to VGA mode if I tried to use the notebook with it. Does anyone know if Apple or a third party plans to offer a PC Card with DVI support? Margi had one, but it's only 4MB... not quite enough for this particular monitor.

Also, one thing Apple keeps failing to address is the #1 reason I haven't switched to a Mac. Steve, where are the software trade-in incentives? I own Photoshop 6 and 7, Dreamweaver MX, and Microsoft Office XP for the PC. What on Earth is keeping Apple and/or other vendors from offering trade-in incentives? Why can I not trade in my two boxed Photoshop-for-PC copies and receive Photoshop 7 for Mac OS X? The same goes for Dreamweaver MX. The cost to move to a Mac is almost doubled by the $1500 worth of software that I already have for my PC.

Here's hoping Apple will start to address this issue, especially since the platform is geared toward video developers and graphic designers -- two markets whose people invest heavily in expensive software.

Re:12" Powerbook Very Cool! But...

[jmcmurry]

Does anyone know if Apple or a third party plans to offer a PC Card with DVI support?

If they did, it wouldn't work in the 12" PowerBook, which has no PC Card slot.

Looks like the 12" PB is a shiny iBook with a G4 and SuperDrive option. Cool with me; those are the two things I would miss in a 12" iBook.

Re:12" Powerbook Very Cool! But...

[SilverLuz]

While I don't know of anyone offering software trade-in, many vendors (notably Adobe, off the top of my head) do offer cross-platform upgrades. From Photoshop 6, you could upgrade to 7 PC or Mac for the same price. Which is why I'm trying to hold off purchasing new versions of my major apps until I get my new Mac.

17" Powerbook... drool.

Re:12" Powerbook Very Cool! But...

[LookSharp]

Steve, where are the software trade-in incentives? I own Photoshop 6 and 7, Dreamweaver MX, and Microsoft Office XP for the PC. [...] Why can I not trade in my two boxed Photoshop-for-PC copies and receive Photoshop 7 for Mac OS. The cost to move to a Mac is almost doubled by the $1500 worth of software that I already have for my PC.

Why would you ask Apple to take in software from some vendor, presumably just to throw it out, and GIVE you $1500 worth of some other company's software? Would you walk into Campell's headquaters, drop a case of opened cans of soup on their desk, and demand Progresso instead because you don't like the kind of bowls you bought to eat your soup in?

How about either 1) Ask the software vendors in question about a trade-up deal, or 2) Buy new software for Mac in the first place?

That's part of the TCO for owning a Mac, and one of the two big reasons (software availabity, especially games; plus hardware cost) that I finally abandoned Apple after 19 years of loyalty.

Re:12" Powerbook Very Cool! But...

[Anonymous Coward]

You need to contact your software vendors. All of those software vendors (except for Office, but then again you can get it for $200 when you buy a new Mac) offer special cross-grade pricing. All you need to do is give them a call.

Re:12" Powerbook Very Cool! But...

[poot_rootbeer]

Why can I not trade in my two boxed Photoshop-for-PC copies and receive Photoshop 7 for Mac OS X?

I dunno, ask Adobe.

I can't understand why you seem to be upset with Apple (and Steve Jobs personally) for not offering this incentive when it's not even theirs to offer in the first place...

Re:12" Powerbook Very Cool! But...

[magnamous]

Buy Virtual PC 6 for $200, and you can run all of those on your brand-new Mac. I agree with you that cross-upgrades would be very good, but until then, VP6 would be my recommendation. It's not a perfect solution, but if that's the number one reason that you haven't bought a Mac yet (and based on what you said, if I had to guess, the largest reason by a long shot), I'd say just fork over the $200 and be done with it. There are lots of incentives to getting a Mac that you would understand once you got one, despite the circumstances of your particular situation.

Re:12" Powerbook Very Cool! But...

[MissMyNewton]

Unfortunately, however, the notebook doesn't include DVI-out support, so my monitor [sgi.com] would fall back to VGA mode if I tried to use the notebook with it.

No loss!

I have one of those too -- works just as well on VGA as the DVI port (or DVI works just as "badly" as the VGA - take your pick).

That particular issue shouldn't be a show stopper for you...

Re:12" Powerbook Very Cool! But...

[Anonymous Coward]

About 6 years ago, my employer switched the design department from PCs to Macs. I contacted Quark, Adobe and several other software vendors and asked them if it was possible to buy "crossgrades" (instead of upgrades) to the applications we owned. Adobe, Quark and most other vendors agreed.
Maybe you should make a few phone calls, there might be less standing in the way of a shiny new Mac than you think!

Re:12" Powerbook Very Cool! But...

[WittCycleGuy]

That would work...except Photoshop 7 for os X and some of the other software you metioned is specifically optimized for the native OS. If you run it through Virutal PC you're not going to get the benefits of these amazing applications.

Re:12" Powerbook Very Cool! But...

[grahamtriggs]

What everyone seems to be forgetting is that it is in Apple's interests for it to be as easy and painless for people to switch from PC's to Macs... and that includes the software costs...

That doesn't necessarily mean heavily subsidising the cost of the (third-party) software, but they are in a position to work with the software vendors to try and at least secure OEM pricing for bundling software with new Macs, or special cross-grade pricing...

Re:12" Powerbook Very Cool! But...

[zzen]

Well, the PC card wouldn't help you much. The biggest trade-off of the small size: there is NO PC-Card slot in the 12" PowerBook. This is the only thing that bugs me seriously about this marvelous computer.

Read it all at http://www.apple.com/powerbook/specs.html

Re:12" Powerbook Very Cool! But...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's part of the TCO for owning a Mac

Yeah, if there was such a trade-in deal, I could imagine more "switchers" away from the Mac than to it.

Software lock-in cuts both ways, and for a company like Apple that's completely dependant on it's installed base, having a two-way trade-in plan could only hurt them.

Re:12" Powerbook Very Cool! But...

[Sentry21]

Steve, where are the software trade-in incentives?

I was informed a while ago, though I'm not sure if it's still true, that Adobe will gladly exchange your Windows license for Photoshop 7 for an OS X license for Photoshop 7, straight trade. I would suggest calling Adobe to find out if this is the case, as I would with Macromedia. It doesn't cost them anything, and it promotes good customer relations, so I don't see why not.

--Dan

Re:12" Powerbook Very Cool! But...

[KFury]

Does anyone know if Apple or a third party plans to offer a PC Card with DVI support?

Irrelevant. The 12" TiBook doesn't have a PC card slot either.

Re:12" Powerbook Very Cool! But...

[_Spirit]

We all have been waiting for 4 pound notebooks, or a little over 6 euros in my case. Unfortunately I don't think we'll see that anytime soon.

Re:12" Powerbook Very Cool! But...

[Anonymous Coward]

I DID do a cross-platform upgrade for Adobe Photoshop. I had Photoshop 6 for the PC, and upgraded (for $150) to Photoshop 7 (full boxed set, not an "upgrade") for the Mac. This is done via Adobe, NOT Apple. It actually seemed that there might be a cross-platform transfer as well (not an upgrade), but I since I didn't try to do this I can't be sure.

You'll have to download a document stating you've removed Photoshop from your PCs, sign it, and fax it back to them. That's about it.

Re:12" Powerbook Very Cool! But...

[DaytonCIM]

Why can I not trade in my two boxed Photoshop-for-PC copies and receive Photoshop 7 for Mac OS X?

I called Adobe and they said no problem with "exchanging" Photoshop 6. Only catch is the Mac version is currently 7, so what you must do is a Cross Platform Upgrade. So, you would be charged the upgrade cost, but you're not charge the full commercial license fee. Save you a few bucks, but you'll have to shell out a bit to convert.

I talked to Macromedia and they're pretty much the same.

Not sure about Microsoft. I don't enjoy sitting on hold waiting for their pre-sales folks to get on the phone and try and sell me everything. :)

Hope this helps.

Re:12" Powerbook Very Cool! But...

[Xel]

ADC-DVI Adapter cable: $39 on Apple's web site.
Here.

Safari is the fastest Mac browser

[iJed]

I've just downloaded Safari and have to say its the best browser I've ever used. The only problem I had was importing my Chimera bookmarks but that didn't take long to fix. Safari also has the most stunning page rendering that I've ever seen!

Re:Safari is the fastest Mac browser

[Anonymous Coward]

How did you import you Chimera bookmarks?

Re:Safari is the fastest Mac browser

[fault0]

you can drag and drop them.

Re:Safari is the fastest Mac browser

[Anonymous Coward]

drag and drop bitch

Re:Safari is the fastest Mac browser

[klubar]

Has anyone done a comparison to PC browsers? It would be nice to see how it stacks up against IE on a equal cost PC. Learning a new browser is just one more barrier to switching from the PC. Not only do I have to learn a new OS, but everything I learned about my browser stops working too. A "think different" browser is just another barrier to switching...especially one that is released a "let the users debug it" beta.

Re:Safari is the fastest Mac browser

[iJed]

1) Export from Chimera 2) Import the file in IE 3) Use "show all bookmaks" in Safari and move them to where you want to

Re:Safari is the fastest Mac browser

[jericho4.0]

I totally agree. Fast, lightweight, and highly complient. I bet we'll see tabbed browsing and other features introduced very soon.

Re:Safari is the fastest Mac browser

[Anonymous Coward]

How did you EXPORT from Chimera?

Re:Safari is the fastest Mac browser

[iJed]

In the menu bar: Bookmarks->Manage Bookmarks->Export BookMarks

safari

[Triv]

Just DLed safari. Works well, (and blocks pop-ups! and integrates google search! And cleanly handles ad cookies!) except:

1. NO TABS. Tabs are the greatest thing about chimera and I've gotten quite used to them. I like only having one open window. 2. the brushed metal theme only encompasses the menubar area with no frame at all around the rest. It looks...odd - none of the windows have real borders which works well for the finder but looks off for a web-browser.

it IS still in beta, of course, and I'm truly torn between this and Chimera. Let's see what happens. :)

Triv

I LOVE Safari

[TomHandy]

First off, I'm glad to see that Apple did not start charging for the main iApps (only iDVD, which makes sense). The software demonstrations were actually really impressive, as I'm normally bored by the software demonstrations. The new PowerBooks are also nifty, but I'm probably not going to buy one any time soon, since I already have a 12 inch iBook.

But of all of this, Safari is the coolest. I know "a new web browser" isn't exactly earth shattering news, but this is really nice to have. I am running Safari now, and I love the little UI touches, and the speed of it is great.....it has replaced Chimera for me. So far I've encountered only one site which didn't display properly (on gamespot.com, the login fields distorted the grey graphic they were on), so I clicked the little Bug reporting button and submitted it......quick and painless.

So far I'm really impressed though. A new web browser may not be exciting, but since this is one of the main apps I use, having something that is really fast and slick is very nice.

Thumbs up!

-Tom

Re:I LOVE Safari

[Snocone]

(only iDVD, which makes sense)

Actually, it doesn't, and Steve etc. want it to be free, really. It's the DVD encoder royalties that make it impracticable to make it freely downloadable like other iApps, nothing diabolical on Apple's part.

Re:I LOVE Safari

[TomHandy]

Sorry about that.....when I said "which makes sense", I just meant that it makes sense they have to charge for it because of the encoder royalties which you cited......i.e. it makes sense that they have to charge for software that they have to pay royalties on for every copy. To a lesser degree it also makes sense because Apple doesn't seem to expect many of their potential iDVD customers to want to download a huge program, although of course it wouldn't be as big a deal for customers with broadband connections. But I can also understand Apple preferring to just sell it on CD with all of those themes and stuff.

-Tom

and X11 for osX

[eshefer]

what's the really interesting announcement for unix geeks..

not mentuned at the keynote at all, but a press release is out:http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030107/sftu107_1.h tml

"allows X11-based applications to run side-by-side with native Mac OS X applications on the same desktop and makes it even simpler to port X11-based applications to the Mac®. Apple's implementation of X11, the common windowing environment for UNIX operating systems, is easy to install and is optimized to take full advantage of Apple's innovative Quartz(TM) graphics system to deliver hardware-accelerated 2D and 3D graphics for fast text scrolling, dynamic dragging and resizing of windows, and stunning 3D animation through OpenGL Direct Rendering"

Re:and X11 for osX

[JasonAsbahr]

Ok, now we have X11. What X11 apps should we install??

Re:and X11 for osX

[airdrummer]

yeah, but have they forced click2focus & active-on-top? the main reason i use xDarwin is point2focus...

Re:and X11 for osX

[Onan]

I hate to keep plugging the same product (and no, I don't have any affiliation with the authors), but:

Use CodeTek's VirtualDesktop. In addition to the obvious feature of multiple desktops, it can also give you good, systemwide focus-follows-mouse.

"beta tested at every Macworld keynote in 2002"

[artemis67]

Uhh... by my count, there were only 3 Macworld keynotes in 2002.

And here I thought only Microsoft tested their products three times before they shipped.

Re:"beta tested at every Macworld keynote in 2002"

[Anonymous Coward]

No, Microsoft ships their products three release cycles before testing them...

Re:"beta tested at every Macworld keynote in 2002"

[MonsterChicharo]

Oh please get a life. Microsoft is doing quite a lot of testing of late, as you can see in product lines such as Windows .NET Server. But you just had to bash Microsoft, right?

Re:"beta tested at every Macworld keynote in 2002"

[iNub]

Poor, poor Microsoft. Everybody picks on them. What do they do wrong?

AlBook

[SuperKendall]

"AlBook" doesn't have the same ring to it though

I think this man would disagree with you!

Re:AlBook

[Anonymous Coward]

True, but at least it won't get scratched up so easily like the TiBook does.

Awesome.

[prabhath]

Can't wait to get my hands on one of those powerbooks... once I can cough up the money.

With Safari, a lot of it's new features have been available on the Phoenix browser on PCs. Although i have to say that the new bookmark renaming and the snapback features are pretty cool. (Jobs failed to mention that Safari DOES block popup ads too, the website notes this at the bottom... see ya later IE!)

The 12" powerbook completes the last empty segment in apple's product lineup.. the ultraportable superpowerful laptop.. IBM has had their X series for a while now, but I have to say that the apple laptops are lightyears ahead of any PC laptop. (I say this as I write on an IBM Thinkpad).

Those iLife apps are all topnotch. They all work wonderfully and to see them work together is even better. I don't believe Windows Media Player even comes close to the ease of use as iTunes (not to mention WMP looks like a$$)

I've always been a WinTel user, but you can consider me a "Switcher"

Logic.

[grub]

Assuming that:
BSD is dying and Apple is dying. Does this double negative mean I should finally buy a TiBook?

Re:Logic.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes! -1 * -1 = 1

Why the 440 Go!?

[slithytove]

I've been excited to get a powerbook for as long as the titanium ones have been around. A few months ago I got even more excited about the presence of vertex units in the radeon9000 which is in the last round of tibooks. Today, finding out about the 17" PB nearly made me cream my pants, then I find out its a 440 go (no vertex units) and I'm suddenly conflicted about screen-size vs vertex units:( I mean, which one is the ultimate DooM III notebook? ;)

Re:Why the 440 Go!?

[gearheadsmp]

Same here, but I'm really wishing they'd just have gone ahead and dropped the not-so-new Ti 4200 for notebooks. They'll probably impliment a new version with it in the next 3 monthes, but it's a real shame they didn't put it in this time round.

Re:Why the 440 Go!?

[Stormie]

I agree, what a bizarre decision. This article I found has the Mobility Radeon 9000 spanking the GeForce4 440 Go handily in every single benchmark, on top of having the programmable vertex & pixel shaders, unlike the GeForce. Why on earth would Apple offer a "top of the range" Powerbook with graphics that were inferior in every way to those of it's "mid-range" model??

(p.s. the ultimate Doom 3 notebook is surely a PC with a GeForce4 4200 Go!)

On the name of that browser...

[thatguywhoiam]

Since I haven't seen it mentioned, and all the obvious SteveNote bits will soon be pounded into oblivion...

I think the Safari name is very clever, considering the fact that 'to browse' originally is a term applied to animals foraging for sustenance. Safari indeed.

Re:On the name of that browser...

[Ryano]

Personally, I assumed it was some sort of reference to the old Beach Boys song "Surfin' Safari". You know, web surfing -> Surfin' Safari ->Safari.

We're probably both right.

Re:On the name of that browser...

[Arkham]

I assumed it was a reference to Apple's other code names -- Puma (10.1), Jaguar (10.2), etc. All animals you'd see on a safari.

Brushed Metal Look

[The Glory of Witty]

I'm posting this using Safari, and all I can say is brushed metal on a web browser is a definite no-no.

Re:Brushed Metal Look

[Kaimelar]

In fact, if memory serves, isn't the brushed metal theme supposed to be limited to apps which operate w/ other devices, according to Apple's own style guidelines? So it's ok for iPhoto, because it connects to my camera, and it's ok for iTunes, because it syncs with the iPod -- but it seems inappropiate for a browser.

One thing I've always liked about Apple is that the style guides are clear, sensible, and almost always followed. I'd hate to see them back away from the guidelines that help make Macs so good for getting work done (IMHO) just because the brushed metal looks "cool".

Re:Brushed Metal Look

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually I turned it off for a while, then decided to turn it back on. I actually like it quite a bit.

Re:Brushed Metal Look

[Anonymous Coward]

"isn't the brushed metal theme supposed to be limited to apps which operate w/ other devices"

Would you say that interacting with someone else's webserver counts as an "[app] which operate[s] w/ other devices"?

Re:Brushed Metal Look

[benbritten]

>>> In fact, if memory serves, isn't the brushed metal
>>>theme supposed to be limited to apps which operate
>>>w/ other devices, according to Apple's own style
>>>guidelines?

I agree with you, web servers could in NO way be considered a 'device' which the browser 'operates' with, as you say.

-b

Re:Brushed Metal Look

[shendart]

As with all applications written using Interface Builder and .nib files, you can change this as you see fit. If you installed the Apple Developer Tools (available freely on their website), you can open Browser.nib under your localized folder in the Safari App (/Applications/Safari.app/Contents/Resources/Engli sh.lproj/Browser.nib, most likely). From there, simply uncheck the Textured Window attribute on the main window. Tabless Browsing is a definite hindrance, though...

Re:Brushed Metal Look

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't every app operate with either the OS, the keyboard, the user....

Re:Brushed Metal Look

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed. Absolutely, and it breaks Apple's own UI guidelines.

My two bits of feedback for Apple? More Tabs, less brushed metal.

Re:Brushed Metal Look

[Anonymous Coward]

Unsanity's Metallifizer clears this silliness right up -- no brushed metal in Safari.

I really thought...

[Gortbusters.org]

Apple was onboard with Mozilla... and they bust out KDE stuff??

Re:My soon-to-be rejected submission

[Trolling4Dollars]

Heheheh... yeah. More karma. But of what variety? Negative or positive? Based on the secrets of moderation I read the other day, replying to trolls is "karma suicide". Gotta love it.

Someone call a priest!

[sporty]

There's nothing especially great about it -- it's a web browser -- except that, unlike most other browsers, it is expected to be fast and work properly, as well as be fully integrated into Mac OS X.

"I'm sorry, my browswer isn't broken, it just don't 'work' like konq does. For some odd reason makes fun of me and keeps spinning it's head around. Worst part of it is, it wants me to read all my pages in latin!" :D

Sorry, I'm a mozilla fan and thought how funny and strange that konqueror is so perfect :)

Why kHTML?

[mcc]

My first reaction is.. wow.. that's a lot of.. stuff. I was expecting this keynote to be just hot air. This definitely eases the pain of Nintendo's "megaton" announcement having nothing to do with Gamecube games ^_^ But, onto my question for all you linux-at-home users out there:

Has anyone know why they chose to make Safari based on kHTML instead of Gecko? What is the reasoning here? I think i kind of just wish they'd commandeered Chimera instead, and added all those browser-ish features it was missing. If it's still missing them. I guess I'll download that again and check. Um, ANYWAY..

Why kHTML? Is it faster than Gecko, or easier to hook into, or something? I cannot really comment on this, as I'm not a big KDE fan and so haven't been following Konqueror, and I can't really comment on the speed of Gecko sans Mozilla since i haven't checked out Chimera since v0.1, and can't get Galeon to work*. What's up with this? It seems it would make more sense for Apple to throw their weight into Mozilla, but i can't really come up with any good justification why I'm saying that.

Whatever. Might as well check this Safari thing out and see if it's any more fully-featured than Chimera and any better at rendering standard webpages than Omniweb, or if i'll still be using MSIE tomorrow..

* P.S., if anyone out there can give me any tips as to how the heck to get Galeon up and running under Solaris when one is not Root, let me know. Last time i attempted i got as far as GDK/GTK+ all working and installed in my home directory and stuff, and never quite managed to get the GNOME libraries set up. Eh.. ^_^

Re:Why kHTML?

[bnenning]

I think i kind of just wish they'd commandeered Chimera

That was my first reaction too, but thinking about it I'm glad they didn't. This way Chimera remains independent of Apple and we'll have good competition both between Gecko and KHTML and between the Chimera and Safari UIs. Safari looks decent, but without tabs I won't be switching from Chimera. Definitely worth keeping as a secondary browser though (thereby demoting IE to tertiary).

if it's any more fully-featured than Chimera

If you haven't used Chimera since 0.1, you're missing a lot.

Re:Why kHTML?

[fault0]

> Why kHTML? Is it faster than Gecko, or easier to hook into, or something?

Yes, and Yes, and also the fact that it's one-tenth the size of Gecko (and even more if you consider other Moz-related APIs such as xul.)

Keep in mind that the Apple engineers who made Safari are no stranger to Gecko; the Safari team includes the author of Chimera and XBL (David
Hyatt), and one of the guys who originally took Mozilla open sourced (Don Melton). Gecko just didn't fit into what they wanted. In terms of other (non-Gecko) open sourced engines, there really isn't any better one besides khtml.

Re:Why kHTML?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, Konqy in 3.1 has tabbed browsing... I'm using it now :)

Lots and lots of bugfixes and rendering improvements in 3.1 as well, which Safari hasn't got yet, and Safari has lots of things that Konqy hasn't got yet. The exchange of patches should be a really great thing for both browsers.

Re:Why kHTML?

[Anonymous Coward]

i think it may have more to do with the fact that there already is a multitude of browsers already using gecko on the mac (not to mention the pc). in apple's eyes, netscape, chimera, and mozilla are now direct competitors. why give them them the means to improve their products? so what if kde benfits from the code that apple submits, they are no threat to apple in this arena.

I love their new payment option!

[Jonny Ringo]

which is the ability to exchange 1 kidney for a customized powerbook!

Re:I love their new payment option!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hell, I'd trade a testicle for a 17" Powerbook.

Re:I love their new payment option!

[Capt. DrunkenBum]

Do you have a link to that option? I don't need 2 kidneys.

Re:I love their new payment option!

[Anonymous Coward]

Payment of the second is deferred until a time conenient for the customer.

Hmmm Nice Laptops

[Anonymous Coward]

Holy cow, I like the 17in PowerBook!
Can't wait till Toshiba, Dell, HP, Fujitsu all copy it and sell it for 1/2 price.

I mean, come on! $3300 is a lot for a computer with a 1GHz processor, even if I did for some reason need to burn DVDs while riding the bus.

Nice and shiny though.

User Quartz

[d3xt3r]

Also nice; it uses the Quartz rendering engine, so X11 is 3D pipelined. Sweet

They're probably reading this right now...

[aftk2]

...because some of Apple's web developers read Slashdot. How am I so certain? Check out their demo of Safari's bookmarks. (Quicktime required).

"Still Hope for Farscape" ?! Damn, they must have just got those pages done. Smart though - if you're going to release a buggy beta of your new web browser software, it can break on 98% of the web...but don't you dare let it break on Slashdot!

Re:They're probably reading this right now...

[anarkhos]

Then I hope they note all the criticisms for using "textured" windows and the lack of a file type mapping panel in System Preferences.

Re:They're probably reading this right now...

[Anonymous Coward]

There's nothing inherently wrong with a browser breaking on Slashdot, since the HTML it uses is buggier than any beta.

Update from Jamie

[Drakonian]

"Great to see this, an Apple-supported X is greatly needed"

Why is that? I'm a big Quartz/Aqua fan personally.

Re:Update from Jamie

[Cujo]

There are lots of useful X apps that will never make the trip to Cocoa, but many of us would still like to run on OS X. See Fink for a long list.

Aqua is just the look and feel of OS X. Quartz is the graphics engine, which I believe the X11 port makes use of.

Re:Update from Jamie

[otis wildflower]

I wonder if Apple's working on wrapping X in Quartz, and porting widget sets over to Aqua?

Could be nice..

Re:Update from Jamie

[CrazyJoel]

I was kinda hoping that someday I could ssh into my home computer from work and run something other than oclock and xterm.

Bug Button

[neuromantic]

Use the "Bug" button! Go to the Safari page, and submit a bug, saying you want tabs. Make it known to Apple that this is something people REALLY want.

Re:Bug Button

[bsharitt]

I just submitted that "bug." Maybe if enough people do they will add it for the final release.

While I'm posting, let me just say that besides the missing tabs, it is a great web browser. Before today, I was a Chimera user. I used CHimera because it was fast, lightweight, and looked good in OS X, but it had a few stability problems, mostly dealing with downloads and plugins, so I had to keep Mozilla and IE on stand by for each of those respective problems. Now I can finally use one web browser. It's about time.

Also, it's good to hear about the iApps price.

Re:Bug Button

[wirelessbuzzers]

...but it had a few stability problems, mostly dealing with downloads and plugins... ...which is why you're switching to a beta release of a browser that doesn't support plugins.

Also, I'm not sure how much of an impact bugging them for tabs will have... maybe wait until they have a feedback thing on their website?

Re:Bug Button

[Farley Mullet]

First Dude: . . .but it had a few stability problems, mostly dealing with downloads and plugins. . .
Second Dude. . .which is why you're switching to a beta release of a browser that doesn't support plugins.

Actually, it does -- check out Help -> Installed Plug-ins. It lists 2 Java plug-ins, Quicktime, RealPlayer and Flash for me. So far i've tested the Quicktime Plugin and it seems to work well. We'll see about the other ones. Over all I really like the browser (aside from the lack of tabs, which I've already bug-reported).

Re:Bug Button

[CompVisGuy]

I just submitted the following via the Bug Button:

This is a feature request.

I like the new browser. Congrats on producing a very decent looking browser for OS X.

My feature request is for Tabbed browsing (a la Opera, Chimera, Mozilla, Konqueror etc); other suggestions are given below.

The lack of this feature is a "show-stopper" for me -- I'm afraid I'll be using Chimera until Safari has tabs.

They make browsing a much more managable experience -- I typically have between 3 and 10 tabs open -- having 10 browser windows would make using the OS X (or any!) desktop unmanagable.

Also of real use are Mouse Gestures (a la Opera). I can easily use Cocoa Gestures in Safari, but such technology should probably be part of the browser, if not the OS.

I would also like to see a feature in Safari that Opera has: One can define a new CSS of one's own, and if viewing a page that is unreadable/unsightly/etc., a button can be pressed to swap the page's style with the one specified in your own CSS file. This is obviously a feature that is for "Power Users" only, but I think that Apple has attracted a lot of power users by adopting an OSS model for OS X, and you need to cater to us! It should be pretty easy to put a GUI in place to let regular users define their own styles.

My third worry about Safari is that it uses the brushed metal LookAndFeel. My understanding of this L&F is that it shoould be used when the application takes on the functionality of everyday items (such as DVD players etc.). Although a browser is a piece of everyday software, I don't thinnk it is sensible to pollute the 'everyday item' methaphor that the brushed metal L&F represents.

Good luck with Safari in the future.

Let's hope that tabs, mouse gestures and a user-definable CSS feature become a standard browser feature.

Re:Bug Button

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is everyone in a huff about tabs. Sure it would be nice to have them, but there ARE alternate browsers that handle tabs (hmmm...chimera being foremost in my mind) that render as fast as safari. the latest nightly of chimera is fantastic. Don't expect everything from apple because then there would be no choices.

My takes

[binaryDigit]

"Year of the notebook"

Addresses two key issues with Apple. First is slow cpu's. cpu speed isn't as big of a deal with laptop users, so the ghz gap isn't as pronounced here. Second, and most important, laptops have much higher margins than desktops. Apple already sells a higher percentage of laptops, this does nothing but help the bottom line and if they continue, the bottom line will still look good (even if market share drops).

Most dissapointing

No advancment on the ghz front. I just said that it doesn't matter _as_much_, but it's still dissapointing that Apple continues to lag here.

New FireWire connector. I know that this might not be Apples fault, but yet another connector type for 800Gb FireWire, ugh. Yeah yeah, an adapters available, but couldn't IEEE figure out a way to make the two compatable?

Most "interesting"

Safari. How does this fit into the big picture. Does Safari really make the Mac a sweeter deal for those who were fence sitting (or firmly on the other side)? Does what Apple gets from it outweigh the development costs of it? Is this another sign that Apple is distancing themselves from Microsoft? Now with Safari, Office is the only thing left that Apple has a dependency on M$.

Most likely to go "cube"

The 12" PowerBook. Yes portability is good, but does it sell in enough numbers to keep it alive. Will people want a G4 bad enough to pay the extra for the 12" PB vs the iBook? Subnotes/small notes are notoriously hard to sell, but I guess it does plug a hole in the Apple notebook strategy.

Re:My takes

[maverick41]

Two things keep the 12" Powerbook from going Cube:
-Huge Japanese market for extremely small, powerful laptops
-Available DVD burner in a small portable
The Cube was a smaller, less expandable PowerMac that cost more. The 12" is a more functional, more expandable (as laptops go) iBook that costs more.

Re:My takes

[sweetooth]

Hell, I would have bought a 12" PowerBook 6 months ago, and still might. I got my wife a laptop for use with school. It is faster than the pc she was using, and once it showed up she decided that she liked the OS better. The only real requirment she put on me when purchasing her laptop was that it had to be small. When I showed her the small sony's they were out because of the lack of a cdrom drive. This left the iBooks. She loves her iBook, and the only thing I don't like about it is the speed.

I'd pay the differance in price just for the faster processor, and the advantages of the G4 over the G3. The SuperDrive option is also really cool, and I'm sure if we get her the powerbook we'll get that too.

This may not sell a huge amount, but it will certainly be a nice upgrade for those that like the iBooks small size, but want a little more punch.

Or maybe it's just me ;)

Re:My takes

[BJH]

The 12" PB will sell well in Japan, as Apple's smaller notebooks have always done.

Re:My takes

[salimma]

The 12" PowerBook. Yes portability is good, but does it sell in enough numbers to keep it alive. Will people want a G4 bad enough to pay the extra for the 12" PB vs the iBook? Subnotes/small notes are notoriously hard to sell, but I guess it does plug a hole in the Apple notebook strategy.

You are joking? I just ordered mine. Had an iBook last year but could not stand the lack of AltiVec - video encoding is *slow*

Plus the ice-plastic cover is nice, yes, but nothing like a cool metal sheen. Subnotebook is a new trendsetter and Apple lacked an entry until now.

Good thing my order for that Dell notebook has not been fully processed yet :p

Re:My takes

[dr.badass]

New FireWire connector. I know that this might not be Apples fault, but yet another connector type for 800Gb FireWire, ugh. Yeah yeah, an adapters available, but couldn't IEEE figure out a way to make the two compatable?

I don't think that this will be a problem, as the only model that has FireWire 800 (the 17" PowerBook) also has two FireWire 400 ports. If someone can afford a PowerBook and enough stuff to use 3 FireWire ports, they can also probably afford a FireWire hub.

Most likely to go "cube" --
The 12" PowerBook.

Unlike the Cube, the PB has more than style on it's side. The specs (and price) are right inline between the high-end iBooks and the 15" PowerBooks, with the addition of AirPort Extreme, Bluetooth, DDR memory, slot-loading drive (even a SuperDrive), and a more 'professional' look than the iBooks.

The Cube, on the other hand, was slower than all of the other models, and far more expensive.

Re:My takes

[Garin]

Nah, the 12" pb is SUPER. I'm not sure why people think of the 12" computers as a "sub" notebook. It's not really that small, especially compared to the smallest eg. Vaio computers. The new pb won't be significantly smaller than the 12" iBook, which is what I have right now. It's the perfect size, I think. The keyboard is full size, the screen runs at 1024x768, the cdrom is built in.

I personally think the 17" pb will be the one to go "cube". It's just too big! That'll be like carrying around a pizza box! I guess it works as a semi-mobile desktop though.

Re:My takes

[Currawong]

The 12" Powerbook (or a G4 iBook, in any other terms, as that's what it is, essentially) was much needed, as, since the release of the far-improved 800mhz iBooks, many owners of 400-500mhz TiBooks upgraded to an iBook instead, being that they were more robust, reliable, and, unless one does heavy graphic or video editing, faster running, especially with Quartz Extreme able video built in. Add to that the strong sales of the 12" iBooks to those who love serious portability, and you have a winner.

I've also noticed on Apple's Powerbook page mentions the 12" being smaller than a Duo, and, not being painted, meaning no issues with paint flaking off and obvious scratching. Sounds like someone has seriously been paying attention to what customers want, especially those who have been Mac users for many years.

As for CPU speeds, the most significant gains can be made, speed-wise, by iBook and TiBook owners by upgrading their HD's to 5400rpm drives (or faster). A 500mhz TiBook can be made to run seemingly faster than higher mhz models with this upgrade, from observed experience.

I wonder if 800mbps firewire will result in a greater proliferation of firewire RAID solutions, especially considering that the Powerbooks are aimed at the video-editing market. Assuming that it will gives 60mb/sec sustained throughput, that's enough IIRC for DV work.

Re:My takes

[rajpaul]

I totally love the 12 inch Powerbook. A year and a half ago I was really torn between the small size of the iBook and the greater power of the Powerbook. I ended up going with the Powerbook since it was my sole computer and I wanted the G4 processor. But if I were to buy again today I would grab the 12 inch.
It's the 17 inch that I wonder who is going to shell out the bucks for. As tight as it is it's on the edge of not-so-portable.

Re:My takes

[anti-drew]

New FireWire connector. I know that this might not be Apples fault, but yet another connector type for 800Gb FireWire, ugh. Yeah yeah, an adapters available, but couldn't IEEE figure out a way to make the two compatable?

From what I understand (and what I heard from some of the folks who work on FireWire at Apple), the implementation of 1394b changed a lot, due to issues they found with 1394a. The biggest change is that they wanted the connections to work over long distances, and part of that involved adding 2 pins for "signal integrity". A third pin was also added for future expansion.

Here are some more details...
What's new about 1394b? [PDF]
What's new about 1394b? [HTML from Google]

I think the distance was the biggest factor. 1394b is designed to last and be functional as a local backbone. B is supposed to be capable of 2Gbps speeds over a 100m hop without a repeater. A could only get 400Mbps through at most a 5m hop (a 20m hop if you drop to 100Mbps). To get the extra signal fidelity and really open it up for fiber media, they needed to add a few pins. Here's another article about that.

Yes, I definitely agree it sucks, but sometimes you've just got to bend over and take it... standards are made by committees, so I guess it's not suprising they don't always get everything right the first time. :-)

Re:My takes

[mlk]

If only they did a 12" 1GHz model :(

Re:My takes

[sg3000]

> Subnotes/small notes are notoriously hard to sell,
> but I guess it does plug a hole in the Apple
> notebook strategy.

Good point, but I have a one word answer for you: "Japan".

In Japan, they're willing to pay a premium for subnotebooks, and I suspect that's where the majority of Apple's sales will be for this product. Apple used to have a PowerBook 2400, which was perfect for that market. However, during the winnowing after Jobs's return, they got rid of it, along with a lot of other products since back then they all used separate motherboards and were very expensive to develop. Now, it looks like they've got an iBook motherboard and a PowerBook motherboard, so the development of a subnotebook should more tolerable.

For the people I know in Japan, they loved my PowerBook, but they were more interested in subnotebooks, so they'd go with Windows. With the new 12" PowerBook G4 they can get a subnotebook with Mac OS X, a DVD burner, and a G4 processor. They're going to love it.

Re:My takes

[King Babar]

I personally think the 17" pb will be the one to go "cube". It's just too big! That'll be like carrying around a pizza box! I guess it works as a semi-mobile desktop though.

A-yup! It's really a desktop that you can take on the road with you. I can predict that a lot of these will be use by people with second LCD monitors in the office with bluetooth keyboards and mice, and then just picked up and taken onto the plane...although you will definitely need a first class seat to whip one out at 30,000 feet. :-)

The notebook I think is closet to "going cube" is the 14 inch iBook. I still don't understand that one at all. Bigger than a regular iBook, and portability is a nice feature, but lacking the features of a Powerbook. Oh well...

Re:My takes

[UniverseIsADoughnut]

I guess you eat small pizzas

I love it, wish i had lots of money for it though. I've been waiting for a laptop with a big screen, now there is one. I can't stand small laptops. That was my beef with the ibooks, they are so freaking small, and white. Big screen does not make it any less portable, just makes it more usable.

Re:My takes

[punkass]

I beg to differ on the expandability point: the cube had a PCI slot, while the 12" Powerbook doesn't even have a PC Card slot. Memory and harddrive options are both upgradeable, but only the cube has (albeit 3rd party) CPU upgrade options. Agree with you on the price, though...

Re:My takes

[analog_line]

Will people want a G4 bad enough to pay the extra for the 12" PB vs the iBook?

*raises hand*

I was going to invest in one of the top-end iBooks, but I'm going for the 12" PowerBook instead, now that it's been announced. The G4 makes a difference. My laptop is a G3 iBook 500mhz. I have a G4 Cube here, which is 400mhz. The Cube is MUCH faster in just about every respect.

Re:My takes

[maverick41]

Indeed...my assumption was that there was a PC card slot.

Re:Safari rocks! and its GPL

[goombah99]

mee too! on a power book. pages just explode onto the screen. No borders on the window and a very svelt tool bar mean maximum screen real estate for windows. Also a nice snap-back tool for going back ward to a marked point at a deep web site. sort of like a temporary bookmark.

its released under GPL not the apple open source lic.

It seems to be missing some sort of activity indicator (like the flashing N in netscape or the flashing lizard or the flashing E. This is a bit annoying since you dont know if you should click again or not when a link is sluggish

privacy freeks may note one missing cookie setting. it has
Always/Never/ and ONLY FROM SITES I NAVIGATE TOO (NO AD COOKIES). But it is missing an "always ask" setting. Not that I will miss it, but the paranoid may care.

Safari Blocks Popups

[d3xt3r]

Another great feature.... Safari blocks popups just as easily as Mozilla. Just click Safari->Block pop-up Windows !!! Nice feature. This was a great Mac World!

Re:Safari Blocks Popups

[fritter]

Not to mention it has a keyboard shortcut to instantly erase the cache. WHERE was this feature when I lived at home?!?!?

Re:Safari Blocks Popups

[mbbac]

The pop-up blocking feature is also available through a key-binding which allows for easy toggling on sites that you want to see pop-ups.

Slashdot spelling...

[fugu13]

Its w00t, not w00p. Get it right.




And to be clear, I was actually quite impressed with the diction shown in this story. Who are you and what have you done with the editors?

He wouldn't know

[Anonymous Coward]

That post is about as likely to start a flamewar as flicking a bic underwater in a vacuum.

Nothing?

[supabeast!]

"There's nothing especially great about it -- it's a web browser..."

How about it not being Internet Explorer? Apple is slowing breaking their ties to Microsoft, and if they can get a fully OS X compatible Appleworks out there (The current Appleworks requires OS X to install.) and have a non-IE browser as the default, the Mac community can go back to thumbing their noses at Bill Gates and Fester Ballmer.

powerbook

[Anonymous Coward]

I had ordered a loaded g4 powerbook about two weeks ago...I was beginning to get upset it was taking so long to ship. Now my order says it is "being reviewed." Does apple have any plans to update the 15 incher for those of us that prefer neither a 12 or a 17 inch screen? I would love to have the backlit keys, bluetooth, airport extreme, faster hd, and nvidea card that comes with the new one...

Nice new small Powerbook

[Jay Maynard]

Right now, my road machine is a Compaq Armada M300. Its big feature is its size, 10.5x9x1 closed. This lets it fit into a standard Zero Halliburton Z5 laptop briefcase as though it's made for it, with lots of room left over.

I'd decided to get an Apple laptop the next time around, but until now, the choice was between a somewhat underpowered iBook with a scratch-prone plastic case, or a Titanium Powerbook that is a lot bigger than the Armada. The new 12-inch Powerbook is only a tiny bit larger than the Armada, and will fit the bill perfectly. I plan to order one, fully loaded, when my tax refund comes through.

all browsers suck?

[unsung]

Why do I always hear people saying that browsers suck? I never understand that... what are they comparing it to? What makes them suck? How fast are browser *supposed* to render pages?

Re:all browsers suck?

[Anonymous Coward]

According to these standards.

Re:My soon-to-be rejected submission

[Anonymous Coward]

Hehe, interesting post considering your nickname. Were you implying that was a troll btw?

15 inch powerbook dated?

[mgbaron]

I had ordered a loaded g4 powerbook about two weeks ago...I was beginning to get upset it was taking so long to ship. Now my order says it is "being reviewed." Does apple have any plans to update the 15 incher for those of us that prefer neither a 12 or a 17 inch screen? I would love to have the backlit keys, bluetooth, airport extreme, faster hd, and nvidea card that comes with the new one...

Matt

I know they are slow...

[Maudib]

but now I really want a Mac.

Is that wrong?

Re:I know they are slow...

[bmetzler]

They are slow???

-Brent

Re:I know they are slow...

[NDPTAL85]

Not only am I a Mac user, but I play one on TV. (Actually I don't but I really do have a Mac) So trust me when I confirm that they are infact slower in comparison to Windows running PC's.

Re:I know they are slow...

[Maudib]

Well yeah compared to my current Dual Athlon MPs @2ghz each.

dual 1.2 g4s will not match this by a long shot.

Re:I know they are slow...

[squiggleslash]

Absolutely. Have you ever used a Mac Plus with 512k of RAM and an 800k disk? The performance is bloody awful compared to a modern 3.2GHz Pentium IV PC.

I don't know why people use them...

Re:I know they are slow...

[NDPTAL85]

Not only is that Pentium 3.2Ghz faster than an out of date Mac Plus, but its also faster than a brand new off the line Dual CPU G4 1.2Ghz PowerMac! This is not counting one single application in the known universe, Photoshop, that seems to disobey the laws of microprocessing physics.

Thanks for playing Trying to Setup a Strawman or Fallacy though. I really enjoyed it and hope you come back soon to play it again!

Re:Software trade-in incentives...

[autojive]

What on Earth is keeping Apple and/or other vendors from offering trade-in incentives? Why can I not trade in my two boxed Photoshop-for-PC copies and receive Photoshop 7 for Mac OS X?

Maybe it's just me, but shouldn't you be taking that up with your respective software companies and not with Apple? You already own the license to these pieces of software so I would think that most software venders wouldn't have a problem with you purchasing an upgrade/cross-grade for Mac for the price of an upgrade. It costs the same to you no matter which version you purchase and all they really care about is you buying your upgrade from them. Call/write your software venders and see what they would do for you. They would rather keep you as a loyal customer rather than lose you.

iTunes

[Anonymous Coward]

Where is iTunes with rendavous(sp?) support?...you know the one that Steve showed 6 months ago. The one that allows you to use playlists that are on another rendavous enabled computer. Anyone?

Safari Acknowledgements

[Espen]

Acknowledgments
Portions of this Apple Software may utilize the following copyrighted material, the use of which is hereby acknowledged.

Lars Knoll, et al. ( khtml ) [snip]

Lucent Technologies ( dtoa.cpp ) [snip]

Netscape Communications Corporation ( arena files ) [snip]

Harri Porten, et al. ( kjs - JavaScriptCore based on kjs ) [snip]

University of Cambridge ( PCRE ) [snip]

What happened to Xserve 14 drive RAID box?

[Deton8]

Whatever happened to the Xserve RAID box which was supposed to be shipping by the end of last year? This is the one with 14 ATA disks and dual Fibre Channel host ports...

Great Keynote!

[Arcturax]

(Copy of my post to Macslash.org, where I post as MadMac)

This was one of the most entertaining keynotes I've seen in a long time out of Apple. This is also the first one (for me anyway) which wasn't clogged to death when you tried to watch it via live QT stream.

Like the new Notebook, though its pricy. But it also doubles as a surfboard in a pinch!

Now the big big big thing was Steve Jobs standing behind the huge words "Open Source is Good" or something like that. That Apple is releasing the browser code improvements (a years effort) back into the open source community and announcing that Open Source is good is just amazing! It is such a wonderful difference from Microsoft's constant "Open source is the tool of the devil" rants. I think this will help attract more geeks to Apple as well as make open source developers more open to writing software for the Macintosh.

Another thing that was neat was that Keynote uses open standards and that Jobs even verbally invited 3rd party developers to take advantage of that. In a way, I actually wonder if Apple is developing a radical corporate strategy which involves a sense of responsibility to the computer industry as a whole. By releaseing open source changes back into the world as well as using open standards in their document formats, Apple opens the door for other companies to create new tools and new markets alongside Apple. In this way, Apple is *helping* the economy and the computer industry as a whole by creating both new products as well as opportunities for others to share in the wealth of the market those new products exist in. It will be very interesting to see if Apple works on spreadsheets or word processing next. A beefed up Appleworks or Claris works would be nice!

Gripes:
Having to pay $49 to get iDVD3 (even though other iApps come along they are also freely available) is rediculous.
Keynote is expensive, nice, but still expensive and on par with Microsoft's rediculous prices for their own office apps.
Apple should have offered the iApps along with Keynote for like $79 or the iApps by themselves for $29. That would have made it worth the money to get the iApps. Jobs even said the only reason they don't offer iDVD for free is that it is so huge in size. Given that admission, I will feel no guilt at all when I download it from elsewhere or get it from a friend's new Mac.

But that is the only real gripe I had, so over all a very favorable keynote!

Re:Great Keynote!

[iso]

Having to pay $49 to get iDVD3 (even though other iApps come along they are also freely available) is rediculous.

I'm not really sure how you think this is "ridiculous." iDVD was always a for-pay program. From my understanding this is because Apple uses 3rd-party code and technology, and therefor needs to pay a licensing fee for every copy of iDVD that is shipped.

Even if this isn't true, $49 is nothing for a program with the power of iDVD. iPhoto, iMovie, iTunes, iCal and iSync are all free. How can you seriously complain about this?

- j

Re:Great Keynote!

[Arcturax]

Well the way I see it, Apple sold iDVD for, what was it, about $20-30 before? Now either they raised the price quite a bit, or they are chargeing for the other iApps on CD as well, iApps given freely to those with bandwidth. Of course I have the bandwidth to get the freely released ones, but I know a lot of people who don't and it seems unfair to them to have to buy iDVD (especially if their macs have no DVD writer!) just to get these Apps.

But as I said, it was a minor complaint and my opinion, no need to get all up in arms at me about it.

Re:Great Keynote!

[utherdoul]

Apple must pay a number of licensing fees covering the formats it uses... including one to MPEG LA, the licensing group representing patent holders of the MPEG-4 media format.
The same is also true of QuickTime 6, which is one of the reasons why Apple charges for the Pro version of the software (and why QT6 was released late, they had all kinds of issues making that licensing deal).
Don't forget, every bit of software Apple releases costs them a great deal, even if they're giving it to you for free. When the company starts charging for previously "free" wares (or charging for wares you think should be free) it's not because they've pulled a bait and switch, it's because the app is to expensive to produce to support itself.

Re:Great Keynote!

[sg3000]

> I actually wonder if Apple is developing a radical
> corporate strategy which involves a sense of
> responsibility to the computer industry as a whole

What an interesting idea. The big advantage software companies have on hardware companies is the incredible margins: the cost of goods sold for software is basically nil (the price of the CDs), while for hardware, you have all the costs of buying the parts to make your hardware. Keep in mind, R&D is handled as a capitalized expense and isn't amortized over the cost of each unit sold.

So software companies could enjoy huge margins, while hardware companies had to be happy with less than 25%.

Microsoft benefited from this, but they also increased the barrier of entry for competitors by illegally abusing their monopoly. So it wasn't enough to build a better Word processor; you had to be able to make it much better and cheaper than Word (since Word was generally bundled in price with the rest of MS Office), and be completely compatible with Word's file format (because of the network effect).

What's interesting is that open file formats (and Open Source in general) lowers these barriers of entries. For example, if all software applications use the same file format, then the software packages have to compete on their own merits since the network effect related to file compatibility is eliminated.

With Apple embracing open source and open file formats, they're essentially leveling the playing field between software vendors and hardware vendors. If they can get software vendors to adopt open formats, the cost of switching between software vendors will reduce for the users, and it will be easier for new entrants to build competing software programs. In that case, Apple will succeed as well, because they're building some of the best hardware (the new 17" PowerBook G4 is Exhibit A). If their plan works, competition will increase in the computer industry, benefiting all.

Re:Great Keynote!

[mbbac]

Having to pay $49 to get iDVD3 (even though other iApps come along they are also freely available) is rediculous.
Keynote is expensive, nice, but still expensive and on par with Microsoft's rediculous prices for their own office apps.
Apple should have offered the iApps along with Keynote for like $79 or the iApps by themselves for $29. That would have made it worth the money to get the iApps. Jobs even said the only reason they don't offer iDVD for free is that it is so huge in size. Given that admission, I will feel no guilt at all when I download it from elsewhere or get it from a friend's new Mac.

The $50 pays for shipping and handling as well as the DVD license that Apple must pay for ever copy of iDVD.

slashdot gets /.ed

[humina]

It took me 5 clicks to actually get to this page. /. finally got a taste of it's own medicine after the macworld kenote. Anyone want to repost the story in the comments please...

Steve'll kill me

[nullard]

I downloaded the x11 installer remotely. Here's the url I used:

http://a1408.g.akamai.net/5/1408/1388/818a79d41f 1a 22/1a1a1acd38990667d0fe67d53
baad839a91985ea187be a5786de0f406fe45786d91d6897c7f d2e5b8bbef52c5a8cbcec1f4f80b0e7156dbf3197cd/X11SDK
ForMacOSX.dmg.bin

I hope it's still good. If anyone wants it, I have the file. Just reply here if you have some place to serve it from.

Re:Steve'll kill me

[byolinux]

That's the SDK, not the full installer.

According to stevie boy...

[manonthemoon]

They took the components developed for the 17" powerbook and decided to recycle them in the 12" 'book. So they must of thought the keyboard was just right to begin with and designed the smallest possible chassis around it.

Re:According to stevie boy...

[Toraz Chryx]

Thing is, the 12" Powerbook is quite clearly using a variation of the 12" iBook case design....

Re:According to stevie boy...

[Hadlock]

the 15" powerbook has a full sized keyboard (L & W, not depth, at least). the 12" powerbook is pretty much exactly the same size as the keyboard, which is still a full sized keyboard. if the keyboard got any bigger (for the 17"), it'd be akward.

Re:According to stevie boy...

[Anonymous Coward]

So they must of ...

BANG! You're dead!

(That's "your daed" in your language)

Idiot.

Lightning

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks like an electrifying Powerbook.

Video iPod?

[Kelmenson]

I guess the rumors of the Video iPod being announced were false then... Bummer, I was really looking forward to Apple putting that together. Just like the original iPod improved all following MP3 players, once Apple makes a good portable movie player there will be many improved models on the market.

How's Safari news?

[cbv]

Safari's been around since at least 1995 - see here

SCNR...

IE & Powerpoint replacements - is Microsoft go

[mactari]

In the software section of the website detailing the new, tiny Powerbook, IE is off of OS X's Dock and Safari is on. Keynote is a PowerPoint replacement made by Apple.

What you should be wondering is not just whether Apple is trying to compete with Microsoft (and to end its dependence on MS for such a key piece of its OS as the browser) but if Microsoft has started warning Apple that it's going to leave. IE is still listed on the same software page, which doesn't mention Safari by name. There's some posturing going on here, and I'm not real sure what the motives are.

Fwiw, been testing Safari. Super-fast with a clean interface, but doesn't do nearly as good/mature a job displaying hard core dhtml as Mozilla, and therefore Chimera. Good freshman effort, but Apple better not stop at version 1.0.

The new X11 from Apple

[MalleusEBHC]

Does anyone know how this will work for Fink users? Fink depends on most everything being in /sw, and tons of packages depend on X11. I just hope these will work well together because an Apple version of X11 with a nice window manager would be heaven at times.

Re:The new X11 from Apple

[pigpen_]

I'm pretty sure the fink installation of X11 puts everything in the standard /usr/X11R6 so if Apple is releasing a fully functional X11 installation then the apps installed by fink in /sw should be able to run. And if not, then just set the path properly and the fink programs should be able to run anyway.

Re:The new X11 from Apple

[bnenning]

Abandoning all common sense, I just installed Apple's X11 over the top of fink. Both want to dump stuff in /usr/X11R6, but since fink uses /sw for almost everything else I figured it would be ok, which it is so far. Upon firing up X11.app, it tried to read my .xinitrc file, which I have set up in fink to start Gnome with the sawfish window manager. It came up fine, but I wanted to use Apple's window manager that's integrated with the Dock, so I commented out my .xinitrc and restarted X11. This gave me an xterm window with no WM, oops. Fortunately I found "quartz-wm" installed in /usr/X11R6/bin and running that gave me a window manager with Aqua titlebars and buttons, and it even minimizes to the dock exactly like native OS X apps. I then renamed ~/.xinitrc so it wouldn't be found at all, and now when I start X11.app I get an xterm with quartz-wm already running, which is what I want. I've only tried a couple of X (er, X11) apps from my fink installation, but so far they've all worked flawlessly.

Re:The new X11 from Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Change the window manager in your ~.xinitrc file to quartz-wm from sawfish.
It's a feature, not a bug.

Re:The new X11 from Apple

[Unxmaal]

FYI: don't remove your .xinitrc file. Just hash [#] out the other windowmanagers, and/or ensure that 'exec quartz-wm' is set before all other windowmanagers. Example:

#!/bin/sh

userresources=$HOME/.Xres ources
usermodmap=$HOME/.Xmodmap
sysresources=/u sr/X11R6/lib/X11/xinit/.Xresources
sysmodmap=/usr /X11R6/lib/X11/xinit/.Xmodmap

<snip>
# twm &
autocutsel &
#/sw/bin/oroborus &
exec quartz-wm

Re:The new X11 from Apple

[Dominic_Mazzoni]

Anyone figure out how to get OpenOffice.org 1.0.1 to run? It keeps trying to start up XDarwin...

Re:The new X11 from Apple

[Trusted Content]

Some folks were complaining about this on MacNN. Seems if you rename Apple's x11 app to XDarwin, all should work. Hope that's helpful.

Let me get this straight...

[MBoffin]

The browser is integrated into the OS? I don't mean to troll, but it annoys me that this is tossed off lightly as an aside of "Oh, and the browser is integrated." How many thousands of posts have been made on this site flaming Microsoft for doing this exact same thing?

*sigh*

Re:Let me get this straight...

[shiffman]

The browser is integrated into the OS? I don't mean to troll, but it annoys me that this is tossed off lightly as an aside of "Oh, and the browser is integrated." How many thousands of posts have been made on this site flaming Microsoft for doing this exact same thing?

Don't sweat it. As far as I can tell from the keynote and from playing with the beta, Safari is not integrated into the OS any more than any other browser that runs on OSX. I think what was meant is that the browser is well integrated with the OS, i.e. it takes advantage of all the wonderful features of the OS. Since Safari is a standalone download, it's clearly not part of the OS the way Microsoft's browser is in Windows.

What appear to be cool about Safari are its speed and its compatibility with web standards, with a less important bullet being its feature set. (At least in comparison to Chimera, my browser of choice.)

Re:Let me get this straight...

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, I think the post is wrong. It's not integrated, but it's optimized to take advantage of the OS and other features of the OS. The difference is that Safari isn't a part of the OS, which unlike Windows / IE works just fine w/o it, and it doesn't take advantage of hidden APIs.

Re:Let me get this straight...

[Anonymous Coward]

Safari is a single file...hardly "integrated"

Simply dragging it to the trash is all that needs to be done to be rid of it.

M$ weaved their browser into the OS making it virtually impossible to get rid of it.

Re:Let me get this straight...

[otis wildflower]

Also, keep in mind that it's not only a browser, but a set of (presumably Cocoa) frameworks as well, so you can write your own browser.. And unlike M$ those frameworks are opensource..

Re:Let me get this straight...

[drsmithy]

Safari appears to be the same deal as IE - a wrapper around OS-provided browser components. IOW, it's just as "integrated" as IE is.

Cyberdog II?

[koelpien]

Wouldn't CyberDog 2.0 be a better name than Safari? Or CyberWolf, perhaps? Or are we forgetting about Apple's original browser, like Paramount forgets "Star Trek: The Animated Series" when they add up the tally of all the Trek shows?

Re:Cyberdog II?

[saintlupus]

Wouldn't CyberDog 2.0 be a better name than Safari?

I was holding out for iBerdog, myself.

--saint
(Posting from Mozilla, because Safari doesn't have tabs.)

* WOW * great job apple

[siliconwafer]

Just look at those powerbooks on Apple.com. *WOW* ... all of this, X11 and Safari, and all... makes me just want to blow my load... *places hands over pants and looks around quickly*

Airport Extreme not compatible with old card slots

[jhealy1024]

So I've been waiting for Apple to cough up a 802.11g version of their airport, since I knew it was coming. And my prayers were, uh, half-answered. Apple released a new base station that supports 802.11g, now known as "Airport Extreme" (which looks like it rocks, and is only $199), but on the page for the airport cards themselves, there was one little disclaimer:

* Requires AirPort Extreme ready system. AirPort Extreme ready systems are those with mini-PCI support form factor. AirPort Extreme cards cannot be used in older AirPort card bays (PCMCIA form factor slot).

DAMMIT! So my "ancient" iBook won't be able to use these cards, since it only has the PCMCIA slot. I guess I'll just have to upgrade to a 17" powerbook... =)

OK, so what's new?

[ceetee]

Mac users are easily impressed apparently. First of all, yeah, no tabbed browsing, and God knows why they ditched Gecko. But also, what's new? Apple is passing off every feature of Safari (which is a very unoriginal name + hardly compatible with their iProductline) as an innovation, while actually it's been done - a lot. (Well, except for SnapBack, but if you ask me, you've got to surf for ages before you forget where you last clicked.) Let's just go over their so-called inventions: Popup killer: Mozilla. Instant bookmark categorizing: Phoenix. Google toolbar: Phoenix. Dragging bookmarks around: IE. Granted, it's a combination of features from several browsers, but that doesn't make it new, let alone innovative. For the record, I'm no Mac user... I've got 2 ancient Macs which I don't use anymore. But if I did have, say, one of their 17" PowerBooks (I like those though), I'd definitely use Mozilla instead, and bear with the cosmetic glitches.

Re:OK, so what's new?

[fault0]

> Popup killer: Mozilla. Instant bookmark categorizing: Phoenix. Google toolbar: Phoenix. Dragging bookmarks around: IE.

Uhm, if you think Mozilla invented the Popup killer, Phoenix invented instant bookmark categorizing, or that Phoenix invented the google toolbar, you're sadly mistaken.

Re:OK, so what's new?

[ceetee]

I was giving examples. Afa I know, Opera was the first browser to have a native popup killer, etc. etc.

12" Powerbook

[imadork]

Has it occured to anyone else that the new 12" Powerbook is, for all practical purposes, a G4 iBook? What does this say about the future of the iBook? Will Apple continue having two different laptop form factors in the future? While it certainly helps Apple to have a entry-level $999 iBook, especially for the education market, I wouldn't be suprised if by next year there's only one Apple laptop "style", with all price ranges contained within it.

Re:12" Powerbook

[Anonymous Coward]

They are really for diffrent markets, funky metal look for Biz ppl/geeks
iLook for school kids.

Re:12" Powerbook

[Drakonian]

It's a good point. That said, I'm not sure why anyone would pay $1799 for a 12" PowerBook when you could get a 14.1" iBook for $1749. I don't think the slight difference in speed and G4 vs G3 is worth it, unless you are a AltiVec nut or need the AlBook ports.

Re:12" Powerbook

[Drakonian]

I should also note that cheaper iBook has 384 MB more RAM and better battery life. (I assume.) And a somewhat inferior video card.

Re:12" Powerbook

[imadork]

I just noticed that both new Powerbooks have DDR RAM and a new NVidia graphics card. Does that make it worth it?

Re:12" Powerbook

[TheCrazyFinn]

And also the G4 and an available superdrive.

The G4 is noticably faster at the same clockspeed than a G3 under OS X, especially OS X 10.2

Re:12" Powerbook

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, the graphics card gives Quartz Extreme and some gaming.

But DDR on a G4 is really a wash due to the CPU bus. (see PMac benchmarks) The only thing it gives is potentially cheaper RAM upgrades down the road as SDRAM is considered obsolete in the PC world.

Re:12" Powerbook

[extra88]

Because the PowerBook is smaller and weighs less? The G4 is NOT a small difference in speed, it makes a real difference in OS X Finder performance alone. The 14.1" iBook only exists because 1024x768 is too small for some people on a 12" screen. Each iBook and PowerBook still has a niche but the question is whether each niche is big enough to justify keeping its model.

12" iBook:poor people
14" iBook:old people
12" PowerBook:G4 & SuperDrive people
15" PowerBook:PC card people
17" PowerBook:FireWire 800 & strong-wristed people

Re:12" Powerbook

[kalidasa]

Frankly, I'd rather have a 12 in. Powerbook with the iBook case (tougher). I like the form factor.

Re:12" Powerbook

[Elwood P Dowd]

Frankly, I'd rather have a 12 in. Powerbook with the iBook case (tougher). I like the form factor.

Yeah. All these complainers don't seem to understand the virtues of the different products. I think the niches are completely well defined. I chose the 12" ibook a year ago, even though I could have spent the money on the tibook or the 14". I wanted something that was very portable. I'm very happy with my choice.

Given infinite resources now, I would choose the 12" powerbook. The 15" powerbook is just slightly too unweildy for my portable use, and the 12" can drive my desktop monitor, unlike the ibook (it better, that is). I carry my laptop *everywhere*. The 12" ibook is still a great option for folks that want to save $800 or so.

Re:12" Powerbook

[Elwood P Dowd]

Well, the graphics card gives Quartz Extreme and some gaming.

The current crop of iBooks have Quartz Extreme capable graphics cards too. They're just not great for anything else. Modern games can run with acceptable frame rates, so long as all the eye candy is off.

Re:12" Powerbook

[kalidasa]

The 12" ibook is still a great option for folks that want to save $800 or so.

Or can't guarantee that their laptop won't be bumped around quite a bit (I'm clumsy as all hell myself).

Re:12" Powerbook

[NeuroKoan]

Personally I think 12" is the perfect laptop-for-a-laptop (read: not a desktop replacement) size.The 12" iBook is more portable and fits in more of my bags then the 14" iBook.

Maybe if I knew about the 12" PowerBook 6 months ago.....

Shoddy CSS2 support

[Anonymous Coward]

The CSS2 support in safari is pretty spotty, at best. I almost wish they'd just used Gecko, and improved that code base.

Slashdot, slashdotted!!!

[manonthemoon]

Slow as molasses here. Only an Apple keynote seems to do this to Slashdot. What is the hit rate Pudge?

TiVo via Rendezvous?

[dr00g911]

I've been playing around with Safari -- super fast, very clean on most sites. A little flaky with header redirects, but hey -- it's a beta.

After poking around in the preferences, I noticed you can turn Rendzevous bookmarks on -- meaning you'll automatically discover web services running on your LAN. And bookmark 'em. Cool enough by itself.

I then clicked on the "About Rendezvous" button underneath, and found the page has been updated with a tantalizing little treat (in addition to pledges of support from game and printer developers):

TiVo

"TiVo's upcoming premium service package will use Rendezvous technology to automatically discover Macintosh computers within the home network and determine which services they provide, allowing customers to listen to their shared music or view their shared photos on their TV," said Jim Barton, Co-founder and CTO for TiVo. "We are excited about working with Apple on other ways Rendezvous can help TiVo Series2 DVRs connect to a Mac to deliver future services."

Yep. You'll be able to serve your iTunes collection to your TiVo. I'm assuming with playlists and all.

Happy speculating...

Re:TiVo via Rendezvous?

[Anonymous Coward]

hrmm....this kinda bums me out. I was still holding out hope that the next piece of Apple's digital hub was a PVR, but one that would integrate with the iPod and your Mac. Something like a cradle connected to your tv that you set the iPod in. Because you've programmed a record schedule in iCal, which was beamed wirelessly to the iPod, the cradle PVR knows what to record and uses the ipod for storage. Something like that... Another dream gone. GONE!

KHTML vs. Mozilla

[bahwi]

I think it's great that he's chosen to go with KHTML instead of Gecko? (For reference, I use Moz, installing Phoenix right now, and I use WindowMaker, not KDE). If they went with Gecko, it would go against everything the Mozilla Project stands for.

Mozilla is created as an alternative. It was not created to be the ONLY alternative. And assuming the world domination thing happens, IE dies off, we would have the same thing, but called Mozilla and hidden behind different 'skins' (front-end like Phoenix, Galeon, Chimera, Etc). I think those projects are great, but choice is what the entire Free Software movement is about.

I choose to run WindowMaker. I choose to use FreeBSD. I can choose to release my projects as either GPL or BSD, or even LGPL, or any of the other licenses. I choose to use an x86 based platform.

Why not let Apple choose KHTML? If we wake up one day and find that only Gecko is out there, IE died and Konqueror is "that other browser" (Like Opera and Mozilla are considered today, in the mainstream, although both are gaining considerable acceptance), where would we have gotten? Except for the fact it's open source, it'll be no different than IE.

Just my 2c.

Re:KHTML vs. Mozilla

[TrekCycling]

Well, except with the *minor* difference that there won't be a major corporation in charge of the source code, making tweaks to it to continue to abuse its entrenched monopoly position. Other than that dominance by Mozilla would be identical to dominance by IE.

Re:KHTML vs. Mozilla

[IamTheRealMike]

Hmm, nice rhetoric :) The issue isn't that Apple can choose KHTML, it's more a case of why.

And assuming the world domination thing happens, IE dies off, we would have the same thing, but called Mozilla

Uh.... the same thing being a popular web browser? :)

I think those projects are great, but choice is what the entire Free Software movement is about.

Actually it's about freedom. The fact that choice/duplication of effort is often a side effect of freedom isn't really what it's about, it's just a sometimes pleasant consequence of the way the free software movement works.

Why not let Apple choose KHTML? If we wake up one day and find that only Gecko is out there, IE died and Konqueror is "that other browser" (Like Opera and Mozilla are considered today, in the mainstream, although both are gaining considerable acceptance), where would we have gotten? Except for the fact it's open source, it'll be no different than IE.

Well, uh, yeah, except that it's open source! That's the big difference. Nobody controls Mozilla, yes Netscape/AOL have a big influence on the project but you can always fork it. You can't fork IE. The fact that it's open source IS the big deal. A monopoly of Mozilla wouldn't be bad at all - there's nothing wrong with huge market shares if it happens to be the best product and the makers of said product are not trying to prevent competition.

I think you need to think about that one a bit harder. Choice is fine, but it's a means to an end, not an end in itself, and sometimes restricting it (ie technical standards) is a good thing.

Re:KHTML vs. Mozilla

[Nailer]

I'm having trouble resolving the last part of your post with your sig. Don't we already have a technical standard for Linux packaging?

Re:KHTML vs. Mozilla

[grahamtriggs]

Mozilla was created as an alternative? Do you really think they would mind being the only alternative?

Besides which, the browser is so much more than the page layout engine... IMHO, it would be *good* to have a single layout engine - one place to focus all the development work, everyone keeps up to date with the standards, and - most importantly - only one engine with which to be compatible...

One layout engine (eg. Gecko) does not mean one browser - there is a lot of room for value-adding, and blending the right level of features vs. bloat... as can be witnessed by there being at least four different browsers based on the Gecko engine on Windows alone...

Re:KHTML vs. Mozilla

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Why not let Apple choose KHTML? If we wake up one day and find that only Gecko is out there, IE died and Konqueror is "that other browser" (Like Opera and Mozilla are considered today, in the mainstream, although both are gaining considerable acceptance), where would we have gotten? Except for the fact it's open source, it'll be no different than IE.

Your agrument is flawed in the fact that Mozilla and other browsers don't have a whole lot of non-standards features built into them.

Who cares if a few other HTML engines die off and only Gecko based browsers are around. As long as they're standards complient, it doesn't matter. It would be completly different from the current situation with IE.

The only reason IE is pain in terms of people writing only for IE, is because IE dosn't support the standards as well as Mozilla, and it has it own little extentions the exclude other browsers.

A better question would be: Why re-invent the wheel? What is it that progammers say? Never write the same code twice?
I think Apple would have been better off working with the Gecko engine and making improvments to that. After all, it is generally accepted that it's a better engine in terms of supporting the standards compared to KHTML.

Re:KHTML vs. Mozilla

[nathanh]

I think those projects are great, but choice is what the entire Free Software movement is about.

Free Software is what the entire Free Software movement is about. Choice is an irrelevant (though nice to have) side issue.

Re:KHTML vs. Mozilla

[Arandir]

Actually it's about freedom. The fact that choice/duplication of effort is often a side effect of freedom isn't really what it's about

Freedom is choice. If I am unable to choose then I have no freedom. They are two sides of the same coin. Anyone who limits my choice also limits my freedom. Freedom is about me making my own choices, and not about you making choices for me.

The only way you can make eliminate my choice of browser is by eliminating Free Software.

Re:KHTML vs. Mozilla

[manyoso]

<sarcasm>
Hey sounds good. So, I'll set up this 'ONE' layout engine and everyone can just code to that, ok? I am kinda busy right now, but I'll post here when it is up. I'm thinking sourceforge for the hosting and I'll be sure to check in KHTML as soon as it is registered. You can let the Gecko folks know that we've all agreed to focus on KHTML from now on and I'll notify the KDE/Apple developers ... Mmmm k?
</sarcasm>

Re:KHTML vs. Mozilla

[IamTheRealMike]

No - if you're thinking of the LSB then that's not quite the same. RPM is severely deficient as a packaging format, we're trying to make something better. Also of course, due to those deficiencies, it's not anywhere near de facto.

Re:KHTML vs. Mozilla

[10Ghz]

Hmm, nice rhetoric :) The issue isn't that Apple can choose KHTML, it's more a case of why.

it is? How can it be when the Safari-developers clearly stated that the reason they chose KHTML is because (and I quote):

The number one goal for developing Safari was to create the fastest web browser on Mac OS X. When we were evaluating technologies over a year ago, KHTML and KJS stood out. Not only were they the basis of an excellent modern and standards compliant web browser, they were also less than 140,000 lines of code. The size of your code and ease of development within that code made it a better choice for us than other open source projects. Your clean design was also a plus. And the small size of your code is a significant reason for our winning startup performance as you can see reflected in the data at http://www.apple.com/safari/.

So there really is no question of "why?", since the answer is right in front of your eyes (that is, if you bothered to look)!

Re:KHTML vs. Mozilla

[josephgrossberg]

The question remains though: why KHTML and not Gecko?

More precisely, why does Apple think using KHTML instead of Gecko is in their own interests?

Pardon my cynicism, but I doubt they did it out of the public interest or open-source philosophy.

Is Mozilla/Gecko that hard to work with? Have there been frustrations with Chimera? Licensing issues with including Mozilla or Chimera with the system, but not Safari?

Re:KHTML vs. Mozilla

[Nailer]

It is, however, a standard and I think its also a defacto one (in that most Linux systems use it, and the market share of those that don't is fairly small no matter who you talk to - eg, Netcraft or IDC). Many of the freatures on the autopackage homepage already exist in RPM. Surely you'd be better off adding whatever features you find lacking in RPM (such as suggested / recommended dependencies) to the format rather than trying to uproot the existing standard packaging system (a very ambitious goal)?

cool

[tps12]

one-click enhance of photos

Like in the X Files?

Re:cool

[Anonymous Coward]

No, its more like 'one-click SHUT THE HELL UP'

Whore.

Safari

[Anonymous Coward]

Hasn't been mentioned yet:

Safari checks your spelling in text boxes! *woot*
(right click on a text box to access this feature)

How Come?

[Anonymous Coward]

How come when Microsoft fully integrates a browser it's a bad thing (even though the end user is benefited by a faster loading browser, albeit unfair if they don't like that browser) but when Apple fully integrates a browser into OS X it's hailed as a good thing? I understand that we're talking about two different levels of integration here, but please watch out how you think something is ok just because it's based on open source code. Shipping and integrating an open source product is still just as bad, it's still anti-competitive.

Re:How Come?

[CommieBozo]

Safari isn't exactly "integrated" like Internet Explorer. It's a seperate product that can be removed without causing any problems.

Part of the problem with IE was the difficulty in removing it from your system.

Re:How Come?

[DuBois]

...please watch out how you think something is ok just because it's based on open source code. Shipping and integrating an open source product is still just as bad, it's still anti-competitive.

Anti-competitive with what? Mozilla is free. IE Mac 5 is free. What's there to complain about? They're all free. Chimera is free. So who's being anti-competitive? I don't get the complaint.

If someone were still making a profit from browsers (iCab?) then maybe there'd be a point to this.

But anyway, the DOJ's complaint about MSIE was old before it was even presented before a judge. MS will kill itself with screwball "activation" and licensing, and doesn't need the DOJ to help it out.

Re:How Come?

[huckleup]

What Microsoft did would be like Apple turning the Finder into the default browser. if you type a URL in the Windows Explorer it automatically turns into Internet Explorer. And it is very difficult, if not impossible, for another application to get access to the kind of integration that produces.

If you could type a URL into the Finder's search box (which you can't, but might be cool), presumably it would launch whatever default browser you chose in the Internet Prefs pane.

Granted, integrating the two does seem to be slick sometimes. But they don't let just anyone else have access to that mechanism the same way they have. If they were to enable hooks into it, maybe no one would have complained. Some might say they had an ulterior motive (like the Courts).

Safari is just another app on your machine. Choose to use it or not. That's hard to say about IE on Windows.

Re:How Come?

[Anonymous Coward]

Another way of putting your signature is:

Those that can give up Linux, to gain a little content, deserve neither Linux nor content.

I'm pretty sure that if ol' Benjy had been alive today, that's what he would have said.

Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, pay no mind to the fact that the iBook they'd like you to buy has a graphics card that doesn't take advantage of the finder-level hardware graphics acceleration they built into sytem 10.2.

Quartz Extreme? Funny... I just bought an iBook and it runs Quartz Extreme. It's not even the top-of-the-line model either. So please put what you said back in your ass where you got it.

DAMN YOU JOBS!!!!!

[cuyler]

ARGH!

I bought an 867 mhz Powerbook 9 days ago! I thought that since the new Powerbook line just came out there would be no cool new toys announced at MW. Also, weren't they supposed to stop doing this - annoucning all the cool things at MW?

Damn you. I can't afford to keep up with Apple.

17 inches....*sob*

(Sorry if there is poor spelling....hard to type and weep at the same time).

Re:DAMN YOU JOBS!!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, you're an idiot.

Re:DAMN YOU JOBS!!!!!

[Go Aptran]

I bought the 1 gig powerbook with the superdrive three weeks ago (SWEET!) and I was upset for about five minutes at losing my Top Mac status.

Can I at least be on the cutting edge for at least a month?

But you know... it's ok.

The people who are patting themselves on the back for being smart enough to wait a month to buy the "Aluminum Slab", will be gnashing their teeth in three months when Apple bumps up the speed to 1.5 gig and drops the price by $500... and comes out with the Self Healing Granite Powerbook with a 21" screen. Suggested retail price $5000 dollars. Forklift NOT included.

Enjoy your nice more portable computer with it's better battery life and let the Windows folks play the envy game...

Re:DAMN YOU JOBS!!!!!

[hondo77]

You bought Apple hardware 9 days before Jobs' keynote at Macworld? Methinks you're damning the wrong person ;-).

Re:DAMN YOU JOBS!!!!!

[cuyler]

True - it's my fault but I didn't think that they'd update the PowerBook line so quickly after updating the line just a couple months ago.

Re:DAMN YOU JOBS!!!!!

[sg3000]

> *sob*

17" screen isn't that big of a deal.

Of course 17" screen, autosensing backlit keyboard, 54 Gbps AirPort, and integrated Bluetooth. Now that's a big deal! :-)

Re:DAMN YOU JOBS!!!!!

[huckleup]

The 17" thing doesn't bother me all that much. What is it, less than an inch taller and wider? It actually looks a bit big to me, almost not comfortable to carry around. Like, why not a 23" portable ;-)

What I like is the 802.11g. Unfortunately it is a new card format, so you can't put it in the older book. Maybe a third party card will work. Plus the newer machine supposedly has better distance. Again, no way to fix that on the older one.

Also integrated BlueTooth and and FW 800 are nice. I don't really need it right now, but I might sometime in the next year.

I wonder if the 'aluminium' case is going to turn out to be better in practice than the titanium. I'm a bit worried about scratching mine up.

The backlit keys thing is kinda nice. But I wouldn't sell mine for something like that.

(I just bought a SuperBook about 2 months ago, believing too that it would be at least 6 months before they upgraded it again and I didn't want to wait that long. It's still real sweet! ;-0)

Importing bookmarks

[huckleup]

It automatically imports IE bookmarks, but unfortunately not from Chimera where all my bookmarks reside.

I was able to manually drag one bookmark at a time from Chimera into the Bookmark Manager of Safari. It wouldn't support a multi-drag or folder drag though. Argh.

Given the likes of their new Address Book syncing thingy, a cool feature would be to support Bookmark syncing from a store on a server. It's a real pain to keep my 1G TiBook (now obsolete ;-) bookmarks in sync with my DP500 tower's.

The Bookmark Manager is pretty nice though. Easy to rename items and such.

Not bad for a beta release. Really fast. But no tabs...

(Posted using Safari)

Re:Mac guys

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been sitting here at my freelance gig in front of a Mac (a 8600/300 w/64 Megs of RAM) for about 20 minutes now while it attempts to copy a 17 Meg file from one folder on the hard drive to another folder.

It's called "disk defragmentation", n00b.

Just a hint: if you truly want insightful arguments, dont preamble your post by calling people "XXXX fanatics", fucktard.

Integrated Browser...

[kakos]

Didn't Microsoft get in trouble for this?

DDR Memory

[scotty]

Looking at the tech spec of the PowerBook, the new 867Mhz 12" does not have 1Mb L3 cache like the rest. However, both 12" and 17" versions are now using DDR SDRAM.

Sport Utility Browsers

[hexgrid]

With the release of Safari, Apple has continued the time honored tradition of naming web browsers after SUVs.

(okay, so the Safari is a van, but its close enough.)

Re:Sport Utility Browsers

[BJH]

So, where's the Cyberdog SUV?

Like it, though is Apple killing cash cows?

[connorbd]

Finally, an Apple-supported X. The big question is where it was before now. BUT -- surely someone will attempt to port Cinelerra over now? And forget Photoshop Elements -- while the GIMP will never knock off Photoshop, its little brother will be toast in short order.

Aw, hell. It's about time, and it's nice that all the cool iApps will be free-as-in-beer now. /Brian

Re:Like it, though is Apple killing cash cows?

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

And forget Photoshop Elements -- while the GIMP will never knock off Photoshop, its little brother will be toast in short order.

Only if you're a Linux/UNIX nut. Your average user, or even experience graphics designer or photographer is going to find GIMP hard to use.
Sorry, but it's the truth, the GIMP GUI needs some serious work if it's to compete with Photoshop and the likes. It's not just a case of learning the GIMP properly because it does things differently.

Aluminum case huh?

[JudgeFurious]

How long before someone has one of those things polished to a mirror finish. I want a 17" chrome lookin PowerBook.

The wife already said no to the $3300 price tag. If she said no that fast for the computer I can only imagine the look on her face if I told her after getting one that I was planning on gutting and refinishing it.

That would probably be worth the price of the PowerBook.

Interesting wrap to rumors.

[TellarHK]

Quite some while ago, I remember a little amusement about the idea of Apple registering a trademark for the word "Keynote". Interesting to see how that played out. The (I thought) highly credible vPod rumors turned out to be bogus, and the Powerbook line got one of the most surprising revampings imaginable. Not one but two new models, and no displacement of the current line. And not a desktop enhancement to be found. Could this be a transition point for Apple to move into a more portable-based business model in years to come?

What really struck me as interesting, particularly with the quiet reaction to it, is that Apple seems to have declared war on Microsoft. They praised MS Office with one breath, then bitchslapped Gates and his cronies with a double whammy of a new browser and a competitor to Powerpoint. I'm predicting now, a monster update to AppleWorks within the next two Macworlds.

The one thing that really dissappoints me is the incompatibility of Airport Extreme with the current 15" Powerbooks. I hadn't expected they'd deliver a blow like this to Powerbook owners so soon after a revision (867/1Ghz models), and was hopeful for an 802.11g transition that I could replace my standard Airport card with.

Re:Interesting wrap to rumors.

[dusanv]

Amen. As an owner of a six week old PB I feel a tee-wee bit cheated. But this may open possibilities for others. Whoever delivers a 802.11g AirPort card replacement made a sale here (and I'm sure with plenty other PB owners). What would be even cooler is if that replacement had bluetooth as well (they both operate in 2.4 GHz so the built-in PB antenna would work).

Re:Mac guys

[Anonymous Coward]

I can give you a reason to check if Cosby is on NBC tonight.

New screen

[SmittyTheBold]

The 17" model is 1440x900 resolution, 16:10 aspect ratio

I dunno, I've always thought of it as more of an 8:5 ratio.

Re:New screen

[Anonymous Coward]

For the people that don't know that 8X5=16X10 which is taller than 16X9 for all that DVD watching you do on your laptop...

All computer companies preach the lowest common denominator (in this case; people are stoopid).

...has fiber-optic *lightning* for the keyboard...

[gatekeep]

Wow, fiber optic lightning?

1.21 giggawatts!!

since 2002

[Anonymous Coward]

i hope it was a gruelling 7 days of testing at least.

Tabless browsing, thanks to SnapBack?

[Anonymous Coward]

I haven't used Safari yet, but I get the feeling that the SnapBack feature is going to reduce the amount of tabs I would open anyway... Not all, but a bunch.

AAAAARRRRGGHH!

[myov]

I finally broke down and bought a Powerbook last summer. Then the DVD writer was added (one feature I would have waited for). Now, it's a 17" screen, bluetooth, faster Airport, better Airport antennas... I want this machine!

At least I can still boot into MacOS 9. Which I still need to do every so often since Umax *still* hasn't heard of MacOS X, and won't support my scanner.

Re:AAAAARRRRGGHH!

[Onan]

You may want to look into vuescan, third-party driver for a huge variety of scanners. Yes, it costs something like $40, which is admittedly about the price of a cheap new scanner. But that sounds better to me than rebooting.

Re:AAAAARRRRGGHH!

[myov]

I've already looked into VueScan. It only supports the higher end umax scanners - my Astra 2200 is unsupported.

Re:AAAAARRRRGGHH!

[Anonymous Coward]

UMAX's shitty software works in Classic, though...

Re:Mac guys

[captainbajoo]

An 8600? That would be running what OS? Certainly not OS X, I'd wager. Probably more like OS 8, which barely supports multithreading, or even OS 7, which has even less. Even OS 9 still locks most threads (including sockets) when you drop down a menu. In other words, your comparisons are faulty: NT 4 has robust multithreading, so it wouldn't display the lockdown that you see on Mac OS 8 or earlier.

As for your 486 running faster than an 8600, do you mean for general OS performance, or for actual comparable applications? My 486 would barely run a graphics program, which the 8600s I've used handle passably (not wonderfully, but better). So at that point, it's subjective word-against-word.

In any case, that's all old news. The reason today's Macs excite us (or me, anyway) is that they offer very spiffy design on very solid, quick performance. You say Macs are not "faster, cheaper, more stable systems." If, for such systems, you mean Linux, I can't argue with you. I would claim, though, that the newest Macs match or best top-flight Windows systems for performance (thanks to G4/Velocity) and stability (thanks to OS X's BSD core). Then, what you get for the extra "expense" is a tastefully designed, fully integrated yet completely flexible computer and GUI. To re-iterate, over Windows, you gain even more stability, possibly some speed, and a full set of command line tools. Over Linux/other *NIXes, you get a snappy, consistent GUI and access to more applications.

Personally, I use all three, depending on the task. I mostly just find Macs a nicer environment to work in.

Safari, OSS..

[otis wildflower]

A few impressions of Safari, iLife, new HW:

• No tabs in Safari? There will be before 1.0..
  
• There are bits that look like Chimera, including the default no-favicon icon, and I can't recall how I found it, but the plugin page looks a lot like mozilla's
  
• All apps should have a bug button in the main toolbar ;) I use it to log bugs, and feature requests I just use 'www.apple.com'..
  
• I like the bookmarks interface and activity window a lot
  
• when network ops are in progress, the progress bar should throb. when network ops are in progress but no data is flowing the progress bar should not throb. Right now the progress bar only thermometers, with no indication that data tx/rx is occurring.
  
• integrate mail attachment functionality, ala latest chimeras, but it should also be attaching whole pages as an option, not just links.
  
• with that in mind, safari needs to be able to send pages/links via AIM/Rendezvous/iChat as well. Preferably choosing to insert links into existing IM sessions or opening new ones depending on circumstance
  
• new HW is neat, but I guess it'll be at least a year before we get video iPod.. No worries, I don't have $800 for what a decent video iPod would cost. I don't have much to say about it as I don't have the $$$ to indulge :/
  
• I want an 802.11g + bluetooth upgrade for my existing Ti. Even without the l337 new antennae (are they differential?) I would love to ditch the dongle
  
• Keynote needs to be able to import Excel for X charts: Excel has better/prettier chart capability. Preferably import via whatever passes for OLE for realtime updating.
  
  

Also, Chimera is fairly easy to 'metalize' if you have the Apple developer tools. Just download the latest set, open up the Chimera .nib files, and check on all the window object 'Textured' attributes. IB is like ResEdit**3.. I bet I can get rid of the textured stuff in Safari by doing this..

No Quicktime 6.1

[Drishmung]

The most surprising omission seems to have been Quicktime 6.1.

Apple promised an update to QT 6.0 before the end of 2002, which did not happen (the update that is, I do seem to recall the end of 2002).

Re:No Quicktime 6.1

[WebMasterJoe]

I do seem to recall the end of 2002

Really? Then you didn't drink enough.

A 'thong' of adoring fans?

[core plexus]

I thought it read a thong of adoring fans. Phew! I need coffee!

How many mice does it take to make 12 pounds of mouse nuts? And why are people eating them?

Re:A 'thong' of adoring fans?

[Slur]

That would be the world's stickiest thong!

Safari eh?

[hnoon]

I only hope apple resolved any issues that may come up with the kids broswer Internet Safari

Re:New screen (OT: Marching Band)

[Etcetera]

I dunno, I've always thought of it as more of an 8:5 ratio.

Arrgh... I *know* I'm not the only person here who had "band camp" pop into their head when they read that! =)

-jc

No!!! DON'T DO IT!

[Idou]

It is a trick to get slashdot to slashdot itself!!!

12" Powerbook an Ibook killer?

[truffle]

The new 12" Powerbook is a great competitor to the 12" Ibook! Lets review some major points of comparison between the new powerbook and the 12" ibook.

Ibook:

• Processor: 800 mhz G3
• Memory: 128 mb
• Hard Disk: 30 gig
• Price: $1299

Powerbook:

• Processor: 867 mhz G4
• Memory: 256 mb
• Hard Disk: 40 gig
• Price: $1799

The powerbook also has a better graphics card and bluetooth. For an extra $200 you can add a DVD burner. This new powerbook really closes the gap between ibook and powerbook users. It's the most affordable G4 notebook to come from apple, and the most affordable DVD burning notebook as well. I'll stick with my ibook, but this is an impressive amount of additional value for not much additional cash.

HomePod and GLOO

[Anonymous Coward]

One thing Jobs didn't mention was the new HomePod from MacSense Connectivity. It's based on technology from GLOOLABS. Basically, it allows you to take your MP3 collection and beam it to any device in your house! I need one of these now! Even better, GLOOLABS is taking the open-source route, asking developers to create their own devices based on the technology!

Buit-In Bluetooth

[Cuprous]

Not mentioned above, but the most exciting announcement for me is built-in bluetooth. No more dongles!

Wunderkind

[Graymalkin]

I really hope there are some happy Mac users out right now. This MacWorld has been a really awesome one and I hope the trend continues with the third party developers going buck wild with some new OSX apps.

Safari is a neat browser and of the stuff released today was one thing that really suprised me. I didn't figure Apple would want to enter the browser "war" so I sort of wrote off them ever making a browser. It made no sense to go after that essentially profitless market when there are so many alternatives already entrenched. After using Safari a bit I realized Apple didn't enter the browser war, they just built a system on the fallout ridden wastes of the browser war. The gadgetry MS has been trying to add to IE in the form of auction watches and whatnot are handled by Sherlock 3, Safari doesn't need them. It also doesn't need some entirely new plugin architecture because Quicktime supports a huge swath of file formats and media types that are readily found on the web. All Apple really had to do was build an interface for a third party's HTML renderer which I think they've done pretty well. As an added bonus it also lets Apple ship consumer systems with entirely first party software and still have it be functional for the typical Mac neophyte. It's also really sweet seeing the GPL is a product like Safari.

I've been waiting for Apple to move to 802.11g for a while now, I figured they would have done so way earlier than now. Had they done this they might have ended up screwed over by a standards committee had anything changed in the spec between when they released it and the still pending ratification date. Keeping that in mind waiting until the spec's finality was imminent makes a lot of sense. It might take me a while to move up to Airport Extreme (as I just bought 802.11.b equipment) but when I end up with a new Powerbook it will be awesome that it is there.

The Powerbooks facinated me, I'm really glad I've held off buying a new laptop. I had figured the Powerbooks would be the next candidates for an upgrade but never did I think the upgrades would look like they do. I think the 12" Powerbook is an excellent idea and I hope to have one ASAP. While the iBook is a nice system it falls short for anyone wanting a good dose of processing power (read gaming performance) in a portable system. Adding Radeons to the iBooks helped a bit but a "scorching" 49fps in Quake 3 is a yawner (though Apple needs to learn if you want better frame rates you can down the resolution or drop the color depth for some pretty decent playability). I think for most things the 12" Powerbook is going to end up making x86 laptops look pretty crappy, especially subnotebooks. Most of the smaller systems you can find run on hobbled Celerons or Crusoes and cost as much if not more as the new PB. Maybe Apple will get more of a leg up in the portable market.

Between an iCal release that works, a new browser, and an official X11 system that works with Quartz, I have a lot to do on my Powerbook. Maybe one of the first things will be to order a new one.

Tivo and Rendezvous!

[Johnny Mnemonic]

From an Apple Press Release (thanks to MacMinute!):

"TiVo's upcoming premium service package will use Rendezvous technology to automatically discover Macs within the home network and determine which services they provide, allowing customers to listen to their shared music or view their shared photos on their TV," said Jim Barton, co-founder and CTO for TiVo. "We are excited about working with Apple on other ways Rendezvous can help TiVo Series2 DVRs connect to a Mac to deliver future services."

Re:TiVo via Rendezvous? Yuck, improve Tivo 1st!

[swb]

As much as this sounds like a cool feature on the surface, it kind of disappoints me. There's a lot of obvious (and non-obvious unless you own one) features that are missing from Tivo. Playing MP3s and displaying digital photos are NOT one of them.

I'm not sure if its a sign of smart or desperate marketing to try to expand Tivo beyond its core competency. My gut reaction is that its dumb/desperate, and the idea that they will try to extend a dodgy pricing model even further by charging more for these rather pedestrian features makes it even seem more so.

I love my Tivo and want to see the TV-watching aspect improved, not a bunch of junk consumer electronics non-features added, especially not at an even higher price.

Re:New screen (OT: Marching Band)

[SmittyTheBold]

I wasn't even thinking of that angle...ah, band camp: where tomorrow's leades go to DESTROY their feet...

FireWire Encrypt at WiebeTech Booth 1651

[MichaelCrawford]

My client WiebeTech LLC is demonstrating FireWire Encrypt at booth #1651 at the show.

It is a sector-level hard drive encryptor that aims to be very easy to use as well as portable. It uses the Advanced Encryption Standard's Rijndael Algorithm.

It is easy to use because the only software the user needs to install is a simple applet that allows entry of the passphrase. There is no complicated operating system-level software to install or configure.

The encryption implementation itself is entirely contained within a FireWire to IDE bridge.

The FireWire connection also makes the product portable, because FireWire is an external hot-pluggable serial bus.

MacCentral covers the FireWire encrypt here. You can read WiebeTech's press release about it in Microsoft Word format here.

I issued a press release (my first ever!) to annouced that I developed the software for WiebeTech. I posted the press release at http://www.wiebetech.com/press/. Sorry I just have Word format available at the moment, but I will post it in HTML in a little while. I'm tired!

I have more technical details on the product in my Kuro5hin diary.

WiebeTech is demonstrating FireWire Encrypt working with Mac OS X at the show, but we plan to support the product on Windows, Linux and classic Mac OS by the time the product is released to the public. (I personally run Slackware on my x86 box and Debian on my PowerPC Macintosh 8500).

Thank you for your attention.

Light sensor.

[alexandre]

A light sensor would be a cool thing to have on a laptop (light on the keyboard is useless, but then it's controlled by software!) ... you could program your laptop to, let say, start an mp3 at the rising sun :-)

Re:Safari rocks! and its GPL

[Alex Thorpe]

There IS an activity indicator. It's a colored moving bar behind the URL. Sort of an odd place for it, but it saves space.

Importance of a great browser

[X_Caffeine]

The Register wrote a great editorial on the importance of having a truly great web browser on the OS X platform. The short of it is, people are out there buying $2000+ iMacs and finding that they don't surf as well as $400 Walmart PCs. That makes getting a good browser on OS X damned important.

I'd have preferred they went with Gecco, but... whatever. So far, Safari seems nice. MUCH faster than Chimera, but the CSS isn't as good.

Safari is NOT Gecko

[X_Caffeine]

A cursory look at a few of my web pages confirmed that Safari is not a Gecko browser. It does not support negative margin-top CSS values, and does not recognize DIV {overflow:auto;}. Chimera (and all Gecko browsers) handle all of these correctly.

The choice of this K stuff over Chimera/Gecko is puzzling, but the performance is there.

Too many I's

[Anonymous Coward]

Is anyone else iTired of all the i's that iApple iUses in all their iProduct iNames?

Japanese Market

[manonthemoon]

I doubt the 12" would exist without the Japanese market. They love their laptops small with lots of features. I wouldn't be surprised if this becomes the best selling Mac overall in Japan.

I patched system-xfree86 for fink to work Xquartz

[Anonymous Coward]

I patched system-xfree86 for fink to work with apple's xfree86 server (the original package complaints because it thinks that you haven't got x installed)

the url is http://gst.sysfrog.org/system-xfree86_4.2-1_darwin -powerpc.deb

i've never done anything with debian/fink packages before, so don't complain if it doesn't work/breaks your system. basically all i changed ist the preinst script where i removed the checks for the installed xfree86.

Airport Extreme

[rworne]

Airport extreme is quite nice. Too bad no one can use it now.

I was drooling over the aspect of upgrading the wireless networking in my home, but it will have to wait. While existing airport cards will work with extreme at 10Mbps, the new AP extreme cards will not work on any currently shipping Mac. The older Airport cards have a connector the same as a PCMCIA card, the new AP extreme is Mini-PCI format.

That's right, if you want 54Mbps, you gotta buy one of the new Powerbooks and the new Access Point.

I suppose it's a matter of time before someone comes up with a Mini-PCI to PCI adapter card for the PowerMacs and a PC Card version for the older Powerbooks. iMac and iBook users are left out of the fun.

Re:Airport Extreme

[Anonymous Coward]

Look more carefully at the picture of the AirPort Extreme card on the Apple website for AirPort.
It's not Mini-PCI. At least, not mechanically. <sigh/>.

Re:Airport Extreme

[rworne]

That may be so, but the requirements listed at the Apple site says:

* Requires AirPort Extreme ready system. AirPort Extreme ready systems are those with mini-PCI support form factor. AirPort Extreme cards cannot be used in older AirPort card bays (PCMCIA form factor slot).

Re:Airport Extreme

[snowtigger]

Technically, doesn't 802.11b and 802.11g use the same frequences (2.4 GHz?). The 54Mbs transfer rate can only be achieved on a short distance and quickly falls to 11Mbs or lower. This indicates that 802.11g is just a turbo-version of 802.11b and not a completely new technology.

If so, then the antennas of an "airport ready" mac (ibook, powermac, imac ...) could also be used for airport extreme using the appropriate card.

Let's hope that Apple makes these cards too. Even if it is technically possible, it wouldn't surprise me if they don't, the same way that iBook dual-screen is deactivated, iDVD only accepts internal (Apple) DVD-burners, etc ...

OpenOffice and X11

[ShatteredDream]

I've been wondering why the developers not affiliated with Sun haven't been pushing for using SWT for the Java GUI in OpenOffice. It runs natively on Win32, Linux and OSX. It would seem a lot easier to me to just port to SWT and in the process get most of the OSX port for free. Does Sun really have that much control?

Re:Mac guys

[IvanXQZ]

Um, I know this argument can be argued from a thousand sides, but I'll try to offer something "intelligent". Your example isn't really a fair comparison. You're talking about computers which are several years old as a parallel for what's available today. The Mac you are using is running Mac OS 9 or earlier, which even Mac fans admit is an antiquated, inefficient operating system on a par with Windows 98, which is the only OS it can be reasonably compared to. Your PC is running Windows NT, which is a modern operating system. On the other hand, NT 4.0 used to cost $$ and couldn't run many consumer applications of the time, so Microsoft sold a billion copies of 95 and 98, which were much slower and more unstable, but more compatible and more consumer-friendly. So you could as easily ask why anyone would buy a PC with 98 when they could use NT instead. So if your question is "Why use Mac OS 9 instead of Windows NT," the answer might be "no good reason," or the answer might also be "to use a well-supported, consumer-oriented operating system which runs almost every title ever written for the platform." If you want to ask why use Mac OS 9 over Windows 98, it's an easier question to answer: Windows 98, is in my experience, equivalently unstable, unreliable, slow, and bad at multitasking. Furthermore, it's harder to configure in many cases, especially when it comes to hardware matters. You just don't have hardware conflicts in the same way on a Mac. Some of the error messages are utterly incomprehensible. Some simple things (dial-up networking, for example) are needlessly cumbersome to configure. etc. The Mac experience is both smoother and more attractive, in my opinion. If you want to compare current day Macs to current day PC's, meaning, why use Mac OS X versus Windows XP, it can be argued either way. It's close. They're both modern, stable, operating systems. (Mac OS X has as much in common with OS 9 as Windows XP does with Windows 3.1). There's more software and more support for XP. But Mac OS X appeals to people for whom aesthetics matter more. The whole experience is more geared around the pleasure of using it. The hardware looks good. The software looks good. I realize these are frivolities in the eyes of many, but to me it's like "Why drive an ugly car if I really enjoy driving a nice one." "Why work in an ugly office if I can work in a nice one." For programmers and techies, Mac OS X is all Unix, all the time, so there's really no end of low-level fun that can be had in Mac OS X, and Mac users are no longer on a software island, as the wealth of existing Unix software runs on OS X. Also, the hardware is cool. Apple was the first to introduce consumer wireless networking, and were by far the price and performance leader there for at least a year. They were the first to popularize USB, despite its being available on PC motherboards for a long time. The Ethernet ports on new Macs autosense, eliminating the need for a crossover cable. They have Gigabit ethernet in their laptops. Their wireless base station, which has a modem in it, can be a standalone PPP server. Their BIOS is an entire Forth programming environment (so that you can write preloaded drivers for your cards) in which you can perform two-machine debugging via Telnet. I can't even remember half the stuff they were first to market with in their machines. Even now, how many PC laptops integrate both Wireless antennas and bluetooth? Have you ever seen the quality of an Apple LCD display, such as those built into the new iMacs? For consumers and creative people, the Mac has tools that are simply without parallel on the Windows side, such as the iApps, which are included with the OS. As far as performance goes, I think XP probably has the edge, but not by much, and there's more to computing than performance alone. It's how well the computer works with you. It's seamlessly connecting and disconnecting from wired and wireless networks without you even knowing about it. (Getting wireless cards to work on a PC can be horrible.) It's little touches, details in the OS, that demonstrate that someone was really thinking about how people use a computer, both newbies and geeks. For YEARS now, from like Mac OS 7.5 days, you've been able to make a disc image of any volume, hard drive, floppy, CD, whatever, and then "mount" it as though it were actually inserted. You know how much more pleasant this makes multidisc CD-ROM games? Or to prepare a CD for mastering? Does it really make sense to have every volume married to a letter, as opposed to having a proper name of its own? Anyway, I'm not trying to start a war either, but I'm trying to say that I think there are good reasons for choosing a Windows machine or choosing a Mac, depending on what's important to you. Neither is inherently the right computer to buy. Both have advantages and disadvantages. Personally, I think that Windows just simply doesn't make as much sense to me, and I spend more time having to figure things out. The fact that in 2003 the whole file system is filled with nonsensical 8.3 filenames seems insane to me. I find messages during software installation like "such and such component is older than the one you have installed on your system. Do you want to replace it?" to be entirely useless, since either answer could have serious consequences. But at a minimum, I'd say you owe it to yourself to look at the latest versions of Windows and Mac OS on new hardware if you're going to challenge why it would be that someone would choose one over the other. A lot of these things I mention apply to Mac OS 9 as readily as Mac OS X -- you just have to deal with the instability headaches that are now thankfully gone. But the point is that there have STILL always been advantages to using a Mac, even if it meant sacrifices in other ways. Ivan.

the KDE side of the story..;

[Anonymous Coward]

well, erm.. here it is..

Re:Safari rocks! and its GPL

[StephenLegge]

It seems to be missing some sort of activity indicator (like the flashing N in netscape or the flashing lizard or the flashing E. This is a bit annoying since you dont know if you should click again or not when a link is sluggish

Actually, the address bar seems to act as an activity indicator. The text in the address bar gets blocked (as though selected) from left to right like a progress bar as the page loads. The progress starts with "http://" section turning blue (progress can stall here for some time, however.

Using the app's compass icon and spinning the needles around might be a appropriate image, though.

Re:Mac guys

[IvanXQZ]

Sorry about the formatting. Dammit. Like it said, I should have previewed.

OmniGraffle and OmniOutliner

[snolan]

Anyone else notice the bundled software list on the new laptops includes Omni Outliner and Omni Graffle?

I was specifically checking to see if MSIE would not be on them anymore, but it is still there.

Re:OmniGraffle and OmniOutliner

[pwynne]

Yeah, mine came with those when I bought it back in mid October. (Just a few weeks before Apple released SuperDrive-equipped PowerBooks. Grrr!)

Why KHTML

[nullard]

Actually the site says:

For its Web page rendering engine, Safari draws on software from the Konqueror open source project. Weighing in at less than one tenth the size of another open source renderer, Konqueror helps Safari stay lean and responsive. And of course, being a good open source citizen, Apple shares its enhancements with the Konqueror open source community.

(emphasis mine)

One thing...

[sootman]

The new 17" TiBook screen is exactly 100 DPI--14.4" wide and 9" high. Nice--you can work at 300 DPI in Photoshop, zoom out to 33%, and your work is shown life-size.

KHTML changelog

[Looke]

A log of the changes Apple has made to KHTML was just posted to a KDE mailing list: http://lists.kde.org/?l=kfm-devel&m=10419691231632 6&w=2

iPod integration with Burton Snowboards jacket

[Judge_Fire]

While most of us might prefer surfing naked, snowboarding ups the challenge a bit.

In the keynote, Steve introduced a joint product with Burton Snowboards - a jacket with built- in iPod compatibility. Buttons on sleeve, wiring inside!

I_love_this_company!

http://www.apple.com/ipod/burton/

J

Re:iPod integration with Burton Snowboards jacket

[KH]

Nice discovery.

It's on the cover of Burton itself, too. I would like one of those. Burton jackets used to have Walkman pocket -> MD player pocket. And now this? I got my iPod for the sole purpose of listening to it while riding. But you know you can't fall when you know your iPod is in your pocket :)

Am I the only one having problems with Safari???

[Frodo2002]

Umm, just downloaded Safari. Threaded links in Slashdot discussions don't work. Am I the only one having this problem? Everything works fine from Netscape, Mozilla, Chimera and I.E. (Just checked) Yeah Safari is nice and zippy, but heck, what use is it if I cannot even read Slashdot properly? :(

Proof it is KHTML, look at the bug fix list!

[Anonymous Coward]

http://lists.kde.org/?l=kfm-devel&m=10419691231632 6&w=2

No joke, the list is HUGE.. Good job apple!

Why KHTML (from the KDE mailing list)

[hysterion]

----- Forwarded message from Don Melton @apple.com -----

From: Don Melton @apple.com
Subject: Greetings from the Safari team at Apple Computer
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 11:31:10 -0800

Hi,

I'm the engineering manager of Safari, Apple Computer's new web browser built upon KHTML and KJS. I'm sending you this email to thank you for
making such a great open source project and introduce myself and my development team. I also wish to explain why and how we've used your
excellent technology. It's important that you know we're committed to open source and contributing our changes, now and in the future, back to you, the original developers. Hopefully this will begin a dialogue among ourselves for the benefit of both of our projects.

I've "cc"-ed my team on this email so you know their names and contact information. Perhaps you already recognize some of those names. Back
in '98 I was one of the people who took Mozilla open source. David Hyatt is not only the originator of the Chimera web browser project but
also the inventor of XBL. Darin Adler is the former lead of the Nautilus file manager. Darin, Maciej Stachowiak, John Sullivan, Ken Kocienda, and I are all Eazel veterans.

The number one goal for developing Safari was to create the fastest web browser on Mac OS X. When we were evaluating technologies over a year
ago, KHTML and KJS stood out. Not only were they the basis of an excellent modern and standards compliant web browser, they were also less than 140,000 lines of code. The size of your code and ease of development within that code made it a better choice for us than other
open source projects. Your clean design was also a plus. And the small size of your code is a significant reason for our winning startup
performance as you can see reflected in the data at http://www.apple.com/safari/ .

How did we do it? As you know, KJS is very portable and independent. The Sherlock team is already using it on Mac OS X in the framework my
team prepared called JavaScriptCore. But because KHTML requires other components from KDE and Qt, we wrote our own adapter library called KWQ
(and pronounced "quack") that replaces these other components. KHTML and KWQ have been encapsulated in a framework called WebCore. We've also made significant enhancements, bug fixes, and performance improvements to KHTML and KJS.

Both WebCore and JavaScriptCore, which account for a little over half the code in Safari, are being released as open source today. They should be available at http://developer.apple.com/darwin/projects/webcore / very soon. Also, we'll be sending you another email soon which details our changes and
additions to KHTML and KJS. I hope the detailed list in that email will help you understand what we've done a little better. We'd also
like to send this information to the appropriate KDE mailing list. Please advise us on which one to use.

We look forward to your comments. We'd also like to speak to you and we'd be happy to set up a conference call at our expense for this purpose.

Thank you again for making KHTML and KJS.

Please forward this email to any contributor whom I may have missed.

--
Don Melton
Safari Engineering Manager
Apple Computer

----- Forwarded message from Dirk Mueller @kde.org -----

From: Dirk Mueller @kde.org
Subject: Re: Greetings from the Safari team at Apple Computer
To: Don Melton @apple.com
[......]
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 21:18:19 +0100

On Die, 07 Jan 2003, Don Melton wrote:

> I'm the engineering manager of Safari, Apple Computer's new web browser
> built upon KHTML and KJS. I'm sending you this email to thank you for
> making such a great open source project and introduce myself and my
> development team. I also wish to explain why and how we've used your
> excellent technology. It's important that you know we're committed to
> open source and contributing our changes, now and in the future, back
> to you, the original developers. Hopefully this will begin a dialogue
> among ourselves for the benefit of both of our projects.

I hope so too. I'm deeply impressed by your detailed changelog and by
the changes. A few of the changes have already happened in "our" developing
version and many of them were on our TODOs. For example just about this
weekend I was working on improving the kjs garbage collector and now I read
that you apparently already fixed the issues I had with it. Seems to me like
a huge christmas gift. Thank you. Thanks a lot.

Especially I'd like to hope that we could set up a mailing list where we
could exchange ideas, patches and bug reports. Also a common testsuite for
regressions would be nice and probably help us a lot in developing KHTML and
KJS further. Ideally the plan should be, and I hope you agree, to use a
common codebase for the backend.

> Please forward this email to any contributor whom I may have missed.

We've forwarded it to kfm-devel @kde.org.

4.6 pounds? C'mon..

[fingon]

I was looking forward to something like this happening (Apple releasing a model that has smaller display, and thus better form-factor and also lighter), but the weight is DISAPPOINTING!

I admit that some weenies still live in world of physical media (superdrive), but something like my Dell Latitude X200 running Mac OS X would've been reason enough for me to Switch!. As it is, I rather take (roughly equivalent) Dell that weighs 1.8 pounds less (X200 is 2.8) running Linux than Powerbook with better OS..

Re:4.6 pounds? C'mon..

[RangerSpeedBumpp]

That doesn't include an internal CD-ROM drive or a decent graphics card. Apple sells "the most compact, full-featured notebook computer". That means everything in one box for a complete desktop replacement: a real 3D graphics card with dedicated memory, modem, USB, firewire, 100bT ethernet, internal 802.11g, and a 60GB hard drive.

I bought an iBook because I couldn't find any PC that was smaller AND included the same features. Not to mention that it's much better built than any PC laptop I've seen, except for maybe GRiD or ToughBook laptops.

Check out the new Airport Base Station

[DrJay]

The 802.11g base station was mentioned as a bit of an afterthought, but there's two really cool features in it:

It's a print server for a USB printer. It's got a USB port - plug something in, and it shows up on your network.

It's a PPP server. You can apparently set your modem to answer calls. This will give you access not only to your local network (printing, file sharing), but if the airport is routing a DSL/Cable connection, you get full dial up internet access.

Kinda kills the answering machine, but what the hell !

JT

Re:Check out the new Airport Base Station

[Anonymous Coward]

The AirPort Base Station 2.0 (Snow) also has the dialup feature. Someday I'll have the time to horse around with mine and get it working on my home network.

Konqueror Surfs Apple!

[flux4]

On an vaguely related note, here's a suspicious screensnap from Konqueror's website. Note the Aqua, fellers... that's where the trouble begins!

bullshit

[Ender Ryan]

GNU/Linux has driven the development of much of the free software that OS X depends on, such as gcc, now khtml, and more.

Re:bullshit

[Twirlip of the Mists]

Depends on? No. OS X "depends on" the kernel and the user space utilities. The compiler is not a big deal (and besides, NeXT and Apple practically did all the work on the Objective C parts of GCC anyway); if it weren't for GCC, it would be some other Objective C compiler. Same with KHTML. If it hadn't been KHTML, it would have been something else. (In fact, I'd be willing to guess that Apple would have written their own HTML rendering component if KHTML hadn't been available or suitable.)

The "GNU/Linux" (whatever) community really hasn't contributed a damn thing to Apple or to OS X, except providing a UNIX-based operating system that, by comparison, makes OS X look even sweeter than it is.

Re:bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

GCC is a GNU project, not a GNU/Linux project.

KDE is not written for Linux, it's written for X11.

Neither of those projects are Linux projects, it's just that Linux users make use of them.

"Linux" does not deserve credit for GCC or KDE.

Self-signed certificates

[ChrisDolan]

Safari apparently does not support self-signed certs. Mozilla and IE show a dialog offering to use or reject the cert, but Safari just bails. Try https://www.codefuries.com/

I guess this must be Apple's fault, not KHTML's. I known Konq works on the above url.

Re:Self-signed certificates

[usr122122121]

Safari apparently does not support self-signed certs. Mozilla and IE show a dialog offering to use or reject the cert, but Safari just bails.

Dude, file a bug report with Apple, not with /.
:-)

Re:Self-signed certificates

[ChrisDolan]

Thank you for the reminder, but I've already done that. :-) I just thought others might like to know. Konqueror seems to do self-signed certs fine (although that's second hand knowledge), so it looks like this bug is indeed Apple's fault.

Re:New screen (OT: Marching Band)

[Anonymous Coward]

No, you're not the only one. :)

And now every troll will see "band camp" in your post and start making American Pie jokes...

Why KHTML instead of Gecko ...

[Gerein]

... is explained here.

Looks like they even got some former Mozilla people working on it... :-)

Apple X11 for Fink users

[ChrisDolan]

If you use X11 under Fink, you can do this:

dpkg -r --force-depends xfree86-base
dpkg -r --force-depends xfree86-base-shlibs
[install the SDK from apple - http://www.apple.com/macosx/x11/ ]
[install the user install from apple - http://www.apple.com/macosx/x11/download/ ]
fink install system-xfree86

(courtesy of Ben Hines on the fink-devel list)

You may have to manually edit your $HOME/.xinitrc file to add the "exec quartz-wm" line in place of any other "exec" lines.

Other than that, it works great for me. The new Quartz WM is good.

Re:Apple X11 for Fink users

[King Babar]

If you use X11 under Fink, you can do this:

A bazillion thanks! So why hasn't the parent been modded up to 6? :-)

Seriously, the Apple X11 release looked really very impressive on paper, but I lived in mortal fear of messing with what worked well enough with fink...

Re:Apple X11 for Fink users

[Redshift]

... but try running xmms under quartz-wm and compare with the results using OroborosX: quartz-wm puts a title bar above the xmms window and boy, does it look ugly.

Inicidentally, OroborusX still works even though I have installed Apple's X11 (the "either/or" kind of working, not concurrent!).

Re:Apple X11 for Fink users

[curious.corn]

It doesn't work for me: the preinst script looks for some of the standard macworld Xservers and bails out for not finding them. To get the thing working I did "ln -s X XDarwin". Stinky eh? (I don't want to plow thru the docs, not now @ least ;-)

Ciao,
Edo

I'm disappointed

[Anonymous Coward]

Although its comendable that Steve is challenging Microsoft on some key applications, I have come to expect more from Apple on the hardware end. There are three things that have made Apple shine this past year - OSX, 23" flat-screens, and the I-pod.

I was really hoping to see some disruptive entry in the hardware arena - a video i-pod, or a wi-fi pda or something. Oh well.

Planet P Blog - Liberty with Technology.

CSS

[wobblie]

Are they going to fix all the problems with CSS and KHTML? I love konqueror, but it seems to have a lot of problems with CSS ...

/. mods: Mod parent DOWN to reclaim your brains

[Mikey-San]

So Konqueror is foolish, as well?

It's not good to have multiple ways to do one thing? (I guess you like how so many sites are designed for IE, huh? Jackass.)

I can't believe the mods gave this guy +5. WTF, over.

I think it's a smart decision. Gecko is good, K is good. There's room for both.

No titanium anymore :-(

[Anonymous Coward]

The text for the new 12 and 17 inch Powerbooks speaks of "a lightweight and durable aluminum alloy". No titanium anymore, what a pity.
However, the 15 inch model still has the good ole titanium case.

Way to reinvent the wheel

[I Am The Owl]

Why didn't Apple just take an existing, proven browser like Chimera and improve upon it? It's not as if we need everyone and their grandma writing their own HTML rendering engine, we have enough problems with standards compliance with just 2 competing ones (though to credit Mozilla, they're not the ones with standards troubles).

Re:Way to reinvent the wheel

[Anonymous Coward]

They have, RTFA.
They have used KDEs kHTML.

Re:Way to reinvent the wheel

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple didn't write their own HTML rendering engine. They took an existing, proven KHTML.

Re:Way to reinvent the wheel

[Onan]

You seem to hold Apple's developers in very high regard, if you feel that they've whipped this up in the past week or so.

Safari has been in development for around a year. This is notably longer than Chimera has existed.

There are several other links in this discussion to Apple's stated reasoning for choosing khtml. Those reasons pretty much all come to simplicity: it's about a tenth the code of even just gecko.

That smaller code size tends to make the finished product a bit zippier, but even more important is that it greatly increases the speed and flexibility with which they can improve upon it.

And standards compliance will only become _better_ with more commonly-used renderers. The harder it is for designers to write only for their favorite browser, instead of for the standard, the better.

IE for OS X

[kruczkowski]

Do you think that once this web browser goes gold, that Apple will dump IE on the default OS X installs? That will be a brave move on there part.

What do you guys think?

Re:IE for OS X

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you, Captain Obvious!

But what does Microsoft really care if IE isn't the default browser on the Mac anymore? They don't get any money for it being there. And they can't really use Office as a weapon again because of the whole antitrust thing.

Safari is a good thing for two reasons:

1) Apple needed a browser that would squeeze every last bit of performance out of their hardware. One of the major mindshare issues that was hurting Apple was that Windows IE loads pages much faster in comparison to Mac IE. Mac Business Unit or not, it wasn't in Microsoft's interest to have a lightning-fast, kick-ass browser on the Mac when 'faster browsing' could be a selling point for Windows.

2) Mac IE has hardly been updated since version 5 came out. Now that there's a new contender in the Mac browser arena, maybe Microsoft will be spurred to improve IE, and that magical thing called "choice" will reappear.

Re:Safari rocks! and its GPL

[scrod]

You can also turn on a status bar from the View menu (or command - \ ).

and you were expecting what?

[Doktor Memory]

No advancment on the ghz front. I just said that it doesn't matter _as_much_, but it's still dissapointing that Apple continues to lag here.

Uh, this may come as a surprise to you, but Apple doesn't make the CPUs in the PowerMacs. They're made by Motorola and (sometimes) IBM, both of whom have been quite public about their roadmaps for newer and faster CPUs over the next two years. If the lack of news there came as a surprise to you, I can guarantee that you were pretty much the only person surprised.

(If you think for a second that Apple would launch a "surprise" announcement of x86 or hammer-based macs, I have a bridge in New York City that I'd like to sell you: Apple pre-announced the 68k to PowerPC move by over a year, and still almost lost half of their developers. They will never do such a thing without plenty of advance notice.)

Expect PPC970-based powermacs late in 2003. Don't hold your breath for anything better than a minor speedbump in the interim. That's the hand Apple has to play, and they're making the best of it.

Re:and you were expecting what?

[binaryDigit]

Uh, this may come as a surprise to you, but Apple doesn't make the CPUs in the PowerMac

Nope, well aware. But from a corporate standpoint, it doesn't matter who makes the cpu, Apple gets hurt in the end. If superdrives start failing all over the place, can Apple say, "hey don't blame us, Panasonic made the drives". Sure they can say it, but Apple suffers most since people will say "My stupid Mac doesn't work".

If the lack of news there came as a surprise to you

Never said surprised, I said disappointed. After all, Apple does have a faster processor at their disposal. I don't know if the 1.25GHz part is significantly different than the 1Ghz, but if it's not, then why not provide a 1.25Ghz model as well for those who want the ponies and can live with a 10% reduction in battery time?

That's the hand Apple has to play, and they're making the best of it

But that doesn't mean that as a Mac user that I can't be dissapointed that this is the situation right? I didn't say that Apple are retards for not announcing a 3Ghz PowerMac when they had the chance. I think pretty much EVERY somewhat knowledgeable Mac user knows full well what the cpu/Mot situation is.

IRT switching to x86, I too once thought that this would be the biggest mistake ever, now I'm not totally convinced. Well, I still think so, but I do see the following occuring. As Apple continues to innovate with their software, the hardware, while cool, becomes less relevant. Now I think it is critically important to differentiate between Apple simply swapping cpus and Apple selling beige boxes, two completely different issues. It is the former that I'm referring to. After all, other than nerds, who amongst Apples core customers really cares what type of cpu (other than for performance reasons) that is inside their box?

Re:and you were expecting what?

[Anonymous Coward]

After all, other than nerds, who amongst Apples core customers really cares what type of cpu (other than for performance reasons) that is inside their box?

They might start to care if it meant that none of their existing software worked (and especially if they couldn't buy new software because most of the remaining Mac devs bailed out).

Re:and you were expecting what?

[Hadlock]

nice troll

Quick note about site icons

[Suffering Bastard]

Hi,

I noticed that Safari supports any graphics format for shortcut icons while Internet Explorer only supports the .ico format.

Slashdot uses this tag for its site icon:
<LINK REL="shortcut icon" HREF="/favicon.ico" TYPE="image/x-icon">

In Safari, the following would also work:
<LINK REL="shortcut icon" HREF="/favicon.jpg" TYPE="image/jpeg">

(assuming you had a correctly named 16x16 gif there, of course)

IE only supports the first option.

Just a bit of trivial information...

Re:Quick note about site icons

[damiam]

Mozilla also supports any favicon format. However, I assume /. uses .ico for IE compatibility. Besides, it's just an icon, JPEG is sorta overkill.

MS Pissed?

[stu_coates]

So is Microsoft pissed that Apple have release Safari?

Well, if seems strange that HotMail doesn't work with it... I would have thought that the Apple testers would have tested against that before releasing... or maybe they did and something has changed </conspiracy>

Re:Airport Extreme not compatible with old card sl

[Van Halen]

Heh. My wife and I finally decided to bite the wireless bullet and ordered a Linksys base station and Airport card for the iBook last week (we'd been dragging a 100ft cat5 cable around the apartment before that, fun!). Then a couple days later I read the rumors of 802.11g and was thinking, "Crap, I should have waited!" I'm almost glad the new Airport Extreme card won't work in the iBook, so now I don't regret the order, which should arrive today. Only thing is the original Airport card is now $79, so maybe we'll return this one to Amazon and buy one cheaper at the Apple Store tonight.

A few thoughts...

[Anonymous Coward]

On Cross-Platform Upgrades:

Many products already offer, explicitly or not, cross-platform upgrades. If you own Photoshop 6 for Windows, you can buy the 7.0 upgrade for the Mac and it will install using your serial number. I believe a number of major products will work this way, as long as they are serial-number based rather than checking for installed files-- even applications that don't advertise this as an upgrade option.

I agree, the cost of software does make it hard to switch-- but given that you can upgrade like this, it isn't a major problem. Here's another thought-- does Microsoft offer Photoshop upgrades for people switching from Mac to PC? As everyone is saying, this simple isn't a job for Apple.

iBook vs. PowerBook:

The iBook is the entry-level (consumer) laptop from Apple. The PowerBook is the prestige/pro laptop. Mac users have been asking for a small pro laptop since Apple canned the 2400. I think the 12" model, with its cooler case/keyboard, SuperDrive option, G4 processor, etc. is sufficiently differentiated.

Using VPC for Pro apps:

To the guy who suggested this: Are you nuts? Emulation in Virtual PC does not give you the performance you will need for serious apps, especially graphic-intensive ones. VPC is a great solution for dinky apps, personal finance, and small custom apps, but not for Photoshop.

Impressions of Apple's X11

[mfago]

Works great so far!

Caveats:
1) Installer doesn't deal with ~/.xinitrc, so remove this or you'll get your old window manager.

2) Window minimize button doesn't work, but CMD-M "properly" minimizes windows in Dock.

Re:Impressions of Apple's X11

[Anonymous Coward]

The window minimize button works for me, so it's not a universal defect.

So far, I'm favorably impressed with this version of X. It seems to be much, much faster than the alternatives.

XHTML support

[JimDabell]

I notice that on the Safari page, Apple are claiming it supports XHTML. khtml does not support xhtml properly - does anybody know if this is an addition by Apple, or merely a mistake (XHTML support involves more than simply chucking it through a tag soup parser)?

Specifically, does it throw a fatal error on this testcase (it should if it supports XHTML)?

Re:XHTML support

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, just downloads a "attachment.cgi" file.

Re:XHTML support

[Maserati]

The browser doesn't freak out, it downloads "attachment.cgi:, which reads as follows:

Konqueror Bug #52665 Testcase

This document is malformed XML, and should therefore not be rendered completely when served as application/xhtml+xml

This second paragraph should not appear.

More Info on KHTML to Safari

[neonsocks]

There's a nice article on kde.org that links to a communication between Don Melton (Apple Safari Engineering Manager) and Dirk Mueller. It also has links to Apple's changelog for their development of Safari.

yaawwwn

[applecrapple]

Is this really "New" stuff? It looks like Apple has once again repackaged the old stuff it has been peddling for the last 5 years. At least "AIRPORT EXTREME" doesn't seem to be as big a Fraud as "QUARTZ EXTREME" since Apple actually tells you how much faster it is (assuming that it's faster on the old macs as well as the "latest" ones). And what's with that BS about 3D quartz? Sorry there aint no such thing...maybe the author of the article was confused by Peter Graffagnino of Apple's super secret, hush hush "ADVANCED QUARTZ EXTREME TECHNOLOGY LABORATORIES" which changed the world of computing forever.

Re:yaawwwn

[Anonymous Coward]

silly twat, stop being a PeeCEE using cunt.

gecko for OSX

[beakburke]

The Browser and the widget set are two different things. They are using the Khtml rendering engine used by konq. as opposed to the gecko engine used by mozilla and its derivatives. No one is suggesting that apple use GTK+ or XUL for their gecko based browser, they are asking why they used the khtml engine instead of gecko. I think everyone assumes that apple with use an Aqua compliant GUI.

eBay is your friend

[edLin]

Sell your used software on eBay.

Re:eBay is your friend

[ClippyHater]

I've actually had eBay cancel my MS Visual Studio and MS Office 97 auctions, stating it wasn't legal. Nice of M$, isn't it?

Re:eBay is your friend

[edLin]

What did they give for a reason?

Re:eBay is your friend

[ClippyHater]

It's been a couple of years, but I seem to recall they said MS had informed them that selling the software (even with all manuals/disks/etc, not to mention that fact that I had upgraded and thus wouldn't be using them again) was against the license agreement. Really, really irritating!

Why the release of OSX X11 is important

[code shady]

With the release of Safari and Keynote, apple has fired a salvo across MS's bow. These two apps help to decrease Apple's dependence on MS for the Browser (a key component) and to a lesser extent, on powerpoint. This is, imo, a goo thing. However, every mac user still has to pay a tribute to MS in the form of Office.

OpenOffice isnt seen as a viable replacement among mac users because it uses X11, and looks decidedly un-maclike. With this new release of X11, thats fixed. Apple can now bundle open office with OS X, and they won't need to spend hundreds of man hours porting it to run under Aqua.

The combination of OpenOffice running under apples X11 implementation, Safari, and Keynote could be just the thing that apple uses to decrease (and perhaps ultimatley do away with altogether) its dependence on MS. And that, I think, is a Good Thing.
---

Re:Why the release of OSX X11 is important

[Danta]

Well at least Apple no longer needs to ship any Microsoft software with all their Macs anymore, which is a Good Thing (TM). After all Office is optional extra software, whereas IE was in the default install.

Re:Why the release of OSX X11 is important

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, like OpenOffice under X11 has any chance of remotely looking like an OS X App, whatever the windows manager :-)
The effort of developing an Aqua interface for OpenOffice WILL have to be spent if there's any chance that any number of Mac user actually use it one day. Whether Apple will do it or the rest of the OpenSource community will remains to be seen....

Re:Why the release of OSX X11 is important

[afree87]

Why did Apple port X11 to their operating system instead of just dangling a carrot in front of the noses of the OO.o people? They want all the X11 apps, silly.

Re:Why the release of OSX X11 is important

[JasonAsbahr]

They did use an open source X implementation.

No more sucking up to MS?

[hmbJeff]

It occurs to me that this is a major slap in the face of Microsoft and possibly represents Apple's first major move toward severing its (already lukewarm) ties with MS.

Replace IE, get rid of the need for PowerPoint for all of those iBook/TiBook roadwarrier "switchers" out there and (next) release a branded, supported port of StarOffice, OpenOffice or KDE office apps.

Suddenly Apple has no dependence on any MS apps and the dynamic between the companies changes significantly.

Re:Am I the only one having problems with Safari??

[afantee]

I have also noticed this, and just submitted a bug to Apple. It's only Beta, you know.

But I am otherwise very impressed, particularly with the appearance, speed, bookmark, bug and text buttons, etc. You have got to give credit to Apple - everything they touch these days turns to gold.

But where's the funny helmet?

[oliverk]

Safari -- it's the OSX version of CyberDog!

Thanks, Apple. What this world needed was another browser...

Re:But where's the funny helmet?

[Anonymous Coward]

What, you're afraid of having choices? Pee in your boots, dimwit, and make a stand. The world needs another browser. It does not need shortsighted, whinging cunt faced ass ranchers who are quick to dismiss the unknown, and will simply cling to the safe and familiar.

Fuck you very much,
>hugs

Re:But where's the funny helmet?

[Chris Johnson]

*poing*

Somehow I am not sure you meant to inspire instant raging browser-lust in those reading ;)

I realise you meant that as a form of mockery, but I guess you didn't USE Cyberdog. I did, and it was absolutely addictive. It was 'integrated' in the sense of being quite faceless and characterless, no splash screens, clean, elegant, nifty UI, everything about it would've been perfect if it had only been a normal program using current but not too ornate HTML.

Now, Safari is some form of that, only using current but not too ornate HTML. What's not to like?

Re:Safari rocks! and its GPL

[IamTheRealMike]

its released under GPL not the apple open source lic.

Where can I get this source then?

Uhh, use Opera for OSX.

[Anonymous Coward]

And then you don't have to put up with IE.

Have you ditched MS Office yet?

Re:Uhh, use Opera for OSX.

[Anonymous Coward]

Opera is bugridden and just as slow as IE on OSX.
And they've been developing at a snail's pace.....

Why not gecko? One word -- scrolling.

[mvonballmo]

I've scrolled through and seen the same comment over and over. Why not Gecko? Objectively, without knowing about standards-support details (because they are details...the sites I looked at, including mine, looked great in Safari), the browser is just *sick* fast. I've got a 15" iMac and I've got 7 browsers on it now (some just for testing.)

- Omniweb has bad standards support.
- Mozilla/Netscape 6 are both really slow. They're tedious to browse with.
- Opera has good standards support (outside of DOM missing...I know, flame away)
- Chimera is faster than Mozilla, but still feels slow loading and rendering.
- IE is faster than Chimera, but generally slower in scrolling than Opera.

And now, the seventh browser -- Safari.

It's wicked fast. Looks great. SCROLLS fast.

You see the killer app is not a web browser on OS X. It's a web browser that can scroll quickly. Go and use a Windows box for a while, then use any of the other browsers on an iMac and scroll the Slashdot site (try this page, for example). You'll want to kill yourself.

Remember. One word. Scrolling.

Finally, someone figured out how to do it quickly in OS X.

Yay. *confetti*

Re:Why not gecko? One word -- scrolling.

[Sardu]

But it's like Gecko, according to the User-Agent it sends:

"Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/48 (like Gecko) Safari/48"

=)

A bigger keyboard??? Why?

[decapentaplegic]

quote: "a bigger keyboard would be a great feature"

Ugh! The keyboard on the current 15" Ti powebooks is already full size. Just measured mine and the horizontal keyspacing is exactly the same as the desktop keyboard (from Dell) sitting right next to it (15.2cm from the left edge of the A key to the left edge of the L key). If the 17" Powerbook uses the same size keyboard as the old 15" (caution, assumption), then making it bigger would make it worse, not better.

Re:A bigger keyboard??? Why?

[drsmithy]

They've probably got enough room there to fit in a numeric keypad, which would have been a *great* idea. At the very least, they should have added some real pgup/pgdown/delete/home/end etc keys instead of the Fn+Arrow key abominations that are currently used.

I really can't believe they've wasted all that space and stuck with a cramped laptop keyboard layout.

Re:A bigger keyboard??? Why?

[Hadlock]

i think it would ruin the asthetics of the powerbook. dumb, i know, but people buy the tibook for about 80% of that reason over a dell or sony.

Re:A bigger keyboard??? Why?

[elliotj]

I totally agree. Having a numeric keypad would put them head and shoulders above the competition on a key usablility point.

Re:A bigger keyboard??? Why?

[Grahf666]

Indeed, and from what I can tell from the pictures on Apple's website, it's not unused space on the sides of the keyboard, but some good sized stereo speakers. A nice thing to have on a laptop if you find yourself headphone-less.

Re:A bigger keyboard??? Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

Toshiba had it right in 1992 with the T6400 :-)

http://www.toshiba-europe.com/computers/products /n otebooks/t6400sx/index.shtm

"Beg the question" = "make a circular argument"

[Anonymous Coward]

Please, please be careful with your use of that phrase: "beg the question" does not mean "raise a question". Instead, it describes a particular kind of error in reasoning, where a logical argument is based on assuming its own conclusion. (Here's a page with more details and examples. Actually, that looks like a pretty cool site; they've got an index of many logical fallacies there.)

I hope you don't see this as rude. My only aim here is to promote the correct use of language, which is generally a good thing for everyone.

Is Apple on crack?

[xmnemonic]

On the PowerBook section of the Apple site, it says that their 17" LCD has the same viewing area as a 19" CRT. Umm, that LCD has a max resolution of 1440x900 (with a bizarre aspect ratio of 16x10- why didn't they try to conform to HDTV with 16x9?), which is about HALF the area of the max resolution of a decent 19" monitor (say, a Viewsonic P95 w/ 1920x1440). And the lighted keyboard- I think most people will recognize this as a gimmick at best. Who needs to see the keyboard to type? Very few I think, the few who also have little need for a super tricked-out laptop that costs $3300.

Of course, if Dell released any laptop like this, every feature cited as "cool" or "unique" would be deemed "frivolous" and "gimmicky".

*waits for the automatic down-modding due to negative Apple comments*

Re:Is Apple on crack?

[damiam]

They were referring to the screen size, not resolution. And a lot of people like to see the keyboard, either because they can't type well (many people can't) or because they're trying to pull off some weird fn-key combination.

Qt, not GT (n/t)

[Anonymous Coward]

For a moment, I thought it said GTK.

Safari like IE?

[dfj225]

There's nothing especially great about it -- it's a web browser -- except that, unlike most other browsers, it is expected to be fast and work properly, as well as be fully integrated into Mac OS X.

Hummm...everyone on earth complained about IE being fully integrated into Windows, but when Apple gets the bright idea to do it with their next browser, people seem to think its a good idea. Makes you think...doesn't it?

Re:Safari like IE?

[zephc]

except it's not integrated into OS X. It uses a lot of the cool features available in the OS X frameworks, but that's like calling iTunes integrated because it uses cool OS X APIs to do cool stuff

Re:Safari like IE?

[dfj225]

That may be true, but I was going by the original post on /. which states that it is fully integrated. I just watched the part of the keynote speach on the browser and Jobs didn't mention anything about this. Anyway, IMO Mozilla seems like a better browser. It still has some features that aren't in Safari. Plus Safari is basically the KDE browser with an Apple made skin. Apple sure is taking this whole take open source projects and use them for their own benefit idea to the max.

Re:Safari like IE?

[geniusj]

... Safari is basically the KDE browser with an Apple made skin. Apple sure is taking this whole take open source projects and use them for their own benefit idea to the max.

First of all, there were many improvements made to the rendering engine, it's not just a KHTML skin. Secondly, you really seem like a hypocrite on your last sentence. The source is licensed the way it is for a reason. To allow the reuse of their code in other projects is one of them. Why should they write another rendering engine from scratch when there are other perfectly good ones available for them to use? Hell, they are contributing their imrpovements back to the community. So, what's the problem here?

Re:Safari like IE?

[dfj225]

I guess I should expand on my last comment. I mean to say that Apple comes out with this new browser but no where in Jobs' keynote does he give KHTML or the KDE team any credit. They way he talks, it would seem that Apple wrote this from scratch. He makes it seem that they (Apple) are responsible for the quick load times as well as the page rendering performance when KHTML should be given some credit for the work. Open source is free to use as you please, but I think that credit should be given where credit is due.

Re:Safari like IE?

[Rouxfus]

no where in Jobs' keynote does he give KHTML or the KDE team any credit. They way he talks, it would seem that Apple wrote this from scratch. He makes it seem that they (Apple) are responsible for the quick load times as well as the page rendering performance when KHTML should be given some credit for the work.

Seems clear that you didn't watch the keynote. Jobs specifically mentioned it was based on an open source rendering engine, and he had a slide that had "KHTML" in big bold letters when he mentioned which one it was.

Re:Safari like IE?

[dfj225]

I watched the keynote excerpts that cnet published on their news.com site. Perhaps that part was not included in what I view. Guess I am mistaken then.

Re:Safari like IE?

[Melantha_Bacchae]

dfj225 wrote:

> Hummm...everyone on earth complained about IE being
> fully integrated into Windows, but when Apple gets the
> bright idea to do it with their next browser, people seem
> to think its a good idea.

Safari is integrated into OS X the same way any well written Mac program is.

Otherwise, Safari is just a file. A special file called a package, but from the user's point of view, just a file. Try this little exercise:

Drag the Safari application to the Trash. Now double-click on the Trash, and drag Safari back out of the Trash window. Repeat as many times as necessary.

Now try this on Windows. Well, actually, you can't. But you can hide it on Windows XP (if you haven't already hidden five of your special applications). This is thanks to a settlement in an antitrust case that dragged on for years. In order to get this wonderful feature (of hiding, not uninstalling, the apps you didn't want in the first place), you have to download Service Pack 1 (it's huge), and agree that Microsoft can access all your data and install anything it wants to on your computer. Great, now you don't have to look at the IE icon any more!

If that does not make the difference obvious, consider that Microsoft stated in a court of law that their operating system would cease to function if the browser were uninstalled. Did OS X cease to function when you dragged the Safari icon to the Trash?

The Microsoft case also involved special antitrust rules that only apply to mean bullies who have a monopoly and abuse it. These rules don't apply to Apple. Even if they did, Apple makes it easy for you to chuck their browser and set up another one of your choosing as the default.

Thanks to Apple's little present to the KHTML/Konqueror team, Konqueror and derivatives will share the speediness and improvements Safari made to the core engine. This will benefit Linux (and any other OS Konqueror runs on).

Do you really see Microsoft doing anything that would help Linux, especially if it involved the GPL?

"Your way of thinking is completely different from mine!"
Shinoda, "Godzilla 2000 Millennium" (Japanese version)

Re:Safari like IE?

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, reasonable people SHUT THE FUCK UP when they don't know what they're talking about.

yes, but...

[SHEENmaster]

Galeon has blocked them better for a long time. Mozilla followed soon after, and I think that Galeon now uses it. Hell, even MSN's browser *chough*probably VB*cough*.does it!

Try mozilla, ghostzilla(winshit), or Galeon today.

Re:yes, but...

[dimator]

Come on, now. Can we all agree that all browsers pretty much copy every other browser? There are features that appear in one browser, and are quickly "copied" by every other browser. It's not like new browsers are created in a clean-room with no influence from other projects.

Besides, everybody "copied" mosaic in the first place. :)

lighted keyboard is not a gimmick ...

[timothy]

Especially when laptops are not your preferred computing device!

I bought a little USB light (Target has them, GE brand, for $10 now, instead of the $20 when I bought my first one) for whenever I use my laptops. I don't *need* a light to pick out keys individually, but it does help even if getting one's hands in teh right place sometimes.

This is true even with nice big clicky keyboards -- I have my older USB LED stalk-thing plugged into a USB hub to cast a small pool of light on my real keyboard as well, for the same reason. It doesn't take much, but when the sun goes down as you are not noticing, it helps.

I have specifically wished for lighted keyboards for just this reason, and I applaud Apple's design team for this. Not that I can afford a powerbook right now.

timothy

Speed boost

[skeedlelee]

There seem to be a lot of complaints on the minimal speed boost for the iBook -> 12" PowerBook jump in cost.

Anyone actually look at the difference in the RAM the two products use? This is probably where the cost difference comes from, not the materials its made of.

iBooks seem to use 100 MHz SDRAM, 12" PowerBook uses 266MHz DDR and the 17" uses 333MHz DDR. This should have a pretty big performance boost, at least as much as the processor boost, probably a whole lot more. Apple never seem cutting edge on memory tech but at least they're now giving you something respectable with the high end powerbook. That was actually one of the things that kept me away from Mac before (not a gamer, all my critical software was availible on both). That and the still high price.

The 15" PowerBook is still using SDRAM though.

Re:Speed boost

[squarefish]

There seem to be a lot of complaints on the minimal speed boost for the iBook -> 12" PowerBook jump in cost.

minimal if you compare 800mhz to 867mhz, but also that it's an upgrade from a G3 to G4. Also adds 802.11G and bluetooth capabilities. It's also smaller in all deminsions including weight and has a slot drive and comes with the combo drive by default- the ibook doesn't.

Anyone actually look at the difference in the RAM the two products use? This is probably where the cost difference comes from, not the materials its made of. iBooks seem to use 100 MHz SDRAM, 12" PowerBook uses 266MHz DDR and the 17" uses 333MHz DDR. This should have a pretty big performance boost, at least as much as the processor boost, probably a whole lot more. Apple never seem cutting edge on memory tech but at least they're now giving you something respectable with the high end powerbook. That was actually one of the things that kept me away from Mac before (not a gamer, all my critical software was availible on both). That and the still high price. The 15" PowerBook is still using SDRAM though.

I think Apples are well worth the cost. I just bought an ibook a few weeks ago and I love it. I maxed everything out other than the screen because I wanted the small size... I should have waited. for a laptop the prices are still very competitive- you can't brew your own for less.

Re:Speed boost

[Anonymous Coward]

You should note, however, that the new PowerBook G4 12" comes WITHOUT an 1MB L3 cache. This is a major downturn (remember the powerbook g4 550) in performance.
As for DDR, since the G4 is limited to 133Mhz SDR frontbus, the addition of DDR RAM is not significant against SDR RAM.

Re:Am I the only one having problems with Safari??

[damiam]

Threaded links...read Slashdot properly?

Read slashdot in nested mode, as the good Lord intended.

Re:Safari rocks! and its GPL

[mabinogi]

It's the rendering engine and JavaScript support that's open source...

you get can the source at anoncvs.kde.org

No tablet? bah!

[grimblegromble]

These would be extra keen with tablet screens

Re:My soon-to-be rejected submission

[Anonymous Coward]

See? This ridiculous moderation proves my point. Here's a BIG FUCK YOU to the moderators: Bite my crank you nads! Stupid assmonkeys.

They do light up.

[SuperKendall]

The other poster of course already said this, but I thought I'd mention it in the summary for those just scanning.

No, they aren't. Maybe you are though.

[Cadre]

*waits for the automatic down-modding due to negative Apple comments*

No, you're just not used a laptop or haven't thought through why they did this.

On the PowerBook section of the Apple site, it says that their 17" LCD has the same viewing area as a 19" CRT. Umm, that LCD has a max resolution of 1440x900 (with a bizarre aspect ratio of 16x10- why didn't they try to conform to HDTV with 16x9?), which is about HALF the area of the max resolution of a decent 19" monitor (say, a Viewsonic P95 w/ 1920x1440).

Umm, okay, their website said viewing area not max resolution so why don't you tone it back a little? Also, the reason they chose the 16x10 is because the resolution is 1440x900. 1440 / 16 = 90 and 900 / 10 = 90. The reason for the extra height is so you can have 16x9 material on the screen and still have room for a menubar and windowframe.

And the lighted keyboard- I think most people will recognize this as a gimmick at best. Who needs to see the keyboard to type?

No, it's quite useful. It's why those USB gooseneck lights can't stay on the shelves. First, not everyone types as well as you do, secondly, when it's dark, you can't see the keyboard to place your hands (and it's easier to glance down rather than try to feel for the dimples on the f and j keys).

Re:No, they aren't. Maybe you are though.

[Anonymous Coward]

Use brainpower, if you have a screen in front of you, it should shed enough light by itself onto the keyboard, unless (as it is the case with even the newest powerbooks) the keyboard keys are unusually small and easy to miss.

Most of the newest Dell laptops have the so-called Ultrabright screens that are so bright even on battery power that I can light my way in a dark room (i.e. when the power goes out), and if I put it on a maximum brightness, I could literally start sending light signals. With such brightness, why the hell would I need yet another way of lighting the keyboard?

Re:No, they aren't. Maybe you are though.

[JavaJoint]

Know why a lighted keyboard makes sense?

Husband/Wife, one wants sleep. One wants to surf.
One wants the ALL of the lights off, right now, or there will
be hell to pay.

That's why :-)

Re:No, they aren't. Maybe you are though.

[Cadre]

Use brainpower, if you have a screen in front of you, it should shed enough light by itself onto the keyboard...

Actually, no. Your eyes dialate from looking at such a bright screen (even with the new autodimming of the new Powerbook it's still bright) so unless you have your the angle of your screen at an acute angle (to light the keys directly), it's much easier to see the keys if they're lighted.

Firewire 2

[Anonymous Coward]

I would expect that steve won't the pro desktop line go without this for long. Now it's only in one configuration of the powerbook. Look for new desktops + iMacs in two to three months.

Audio I/O

[Enkerli]

Too lazy to look for the pages now but there's a number of solutions for Audio I/O on 'Books, including through USB.
You know what'd be cool, though. A multi-track iPod recorder...

Re: Audio I/O

[Anonymous Coward]

As for using 8 mics with a PowerBook, I suggest the MOTU 896. Should be pretty much plug-and-play. It includes 8 mic pres, with individually-switchable phantom if you're using condensers.

www.motu.com

HTH
WM

They should post a warning

[shatfield]

Where the new 17" powerbook is concerned:

"Clicking on this link may induce spontaneous splooging.. proceed at your own risk!"

Good LORD is that nice! Now if only I didn't have to rob a bank to buy one :-/

Someone got a marker and a phony mustache? I'll be right back ;-)

Why? Easy Cocoa embedding, of course.

[davebo]

Apple wants to make a high-quality HTML rendering component for use in Cocoa apps, a-la Microsoft's HTML COM object (MSHTML? I don't know what it's called). Think of Safari as an example application which uses that plug-in component.

This way, I can make a Cocoa app which for some reason needs to render HTML and use the NSWebCoreHTML class (or whatever they end up calling it) to do all the dirty work for me.

The problem with using Gecko, I imagine, is that it depends on Necko and the netscape portable runtime library (which re-implements strings, and threads, and whatnot). They don't want something that platform-independent - they want something that screams on OS X, so they'd want to rip out as much as possible between the rendering library and the native cocoa classes (ie NSString, NSURL, etc). It seems as if it was easier to do that with KHTML than Gecko.

Re:TiVo via Rendezvous? Yuck, improve Tivo 1st!

[WatertonMan]

What it would let you do is play your MP-3's in your stereo system without setting up a full computer in your living room. I halfway wonder if it will let you play your recorded videos on you Mac.

Safari vs. Mozilla

[dfj225]

I would like to have seen a comparison of load times for mozilla running on say linux or a windows box in Jobs' keynote speach, just for comparison's sake. I'm sure I could find these numbers with a little googling, but I'm much too lazy for that.

no snake oil ssl support in safari!

[Anonymous Coward]

that's right, folks. you have to have an ssl certificate that's been signed by a trusted authority. it doesn't allow the user to accept custom certificates.

so much for using safari to access my webmail. :-(

Re:no snake oil ssl support in safari!

[MrMickS]

There doesn't seem to be any certificate authority management either :(

Oh well, bug report sent to Apple. There needs to be a way to override this.

Re:no snake oil ssl support in safari!

[Perry The Cynic]

Certificate authority management, such as it is, in 10.2 consists of the file /System/Library/Keychains/X509Anchors. Get root and stick your anchor certificate into that keychain file (using /usr/bin/certtool). That'll make it a trusted anchor for the entire system. Browse with Keychain Access (in Applications/Utilities).
Support for more detailed control (say, different anchor sets for different programs) isn't in Jaguar; that'll arrive with some future release. (The APIs are in; just not the admin features to use them easily.)
And yes, Safari needs to learn to ask and say, "Okay then, if you say so..."

Mozilla ain't all that

[marm]

The issue isn't that Apple can choose KHTML, it's more a case of why.

Other people have pointed out the corporate aspects, that Apple might not like the fact that AOL has tight control over the direction that Mozilla is headed simply by sheer weight of numbers of developers. I'd like to bring up a different reason: have you actually had a look at the Gecko source recently? It has turned into a bloated, crufty mess with many peculiar hacks to satisfy Mozilla's cross-platform nature (it seems NSPR/XPCOM is not quite abstracted enough as portability code has crept in elsewhere) and to work around deficiencies in the W3C specifications. For a browser that was started again from scratch because it was felt the previous version (remember the Netscape 5.0 code dump? ugh) was way too bloated and crufty to continue work on it, that's very sad.

In contrast, KHTML has stayed pretty lean, partly because I think Qt is a better GUI platform abstraction than NSPR/XPCOM, and partly because it has had to due to the tiny size of the development team: with only a handful of people contributing code, the code needs to be as clean and obvious as is humanly possible simply for the project to survive. It will be interesting to see whether KHTML can continue to be so lean with the addition of a bunch of full-time Apple developers onto the team.

For all the bitching about KHTML's CSS compliance, I probably ought to point out that whilst it's not necessarily quite as good as Gecko (although I have a nice testcase using floats that Gecko has never got right but KHTML aces) it's (in my tests) better at CSS than any version of IE or Opera so far.

It's been fashionable to diss anything other than Gecko since Mozilla hit 1.0. I think that needs to stop: not everyone likes Gecko, both users and developers, and it certainly is not inherently superior, despite its current marginal lead in standards compliance (and lets not forget how it now trails in performance). Open Source does not need to get behind one browser, in exactly the same way that it doesn't need to get behind one desktop either, or one word processor or one toolkit. Choice is good, and rabid Mozilla fans should be especially conscious of this, because Moz would be toast otherwise thanks to IE.

It's also tragic that I only feel confident enough to say this without getting modded down into oblivion in an article that is so obviously a loss for Gecko/Mozilla, but hey, that's Slashdot for you.

Happy Konqueror user since 2000 - yes, I remember when it could barely render Slashdot correctly - and chuffed to bits that Apple agrees with his choice. Nice to be vindicated sometimes.

Safari no good for porn

[so1omon]

It will only let you download to 1 specified download folder. There's no option to "save as". This makes organizing my porn collection difficult for now.

Other than that, it's at least an enjoyable diversion. Not quite ready for prime time, but cool as hell.

Conspiracy therory:

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Apple know that browsing speeds on OS X are much slower in general than Win at the moment. There have even been articals on the issue.

Maybe they're getting a browser that is fast out the door while they're working on a better Gecko based browser? After all, that did hire that guy who worked on Chimera and Mozilla (one or the either, or both).

Re:Conspiracy therory:

[angelo]

'that guy' is working on the BSD package system for Apple, or something like that. Think replacement to fink.

Re:Conspiracy therory:

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple know that browsing speeds on OS X are much slower in general than Win at the moment. There have even been articals on the issue.

LOL do these articles take into account the IE/IIS "secret love handshake(tm)"? There are lies then there is microsoft. p.s. I am using mozilla build id: 2002121216 on my 1ghz TiBook and this browser absolutely smokes. I would really like to know how "fast" is measured in a browser to see how this stacks up.

Re:Conspiracy therory:

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

LOL do these articles take into account the IE/IIS "secret love handshake(tm)"? There are lies then there is microsoft. p.s. I am using mozilla build id: 2002121216 on my 1ghz TiBook and this browser absolutely smokes. I would really like to know how "fast" is measured in a browser to see how this stacks up.

That's a different issue. All the browsers I use in my PC feel much faster than any on my Mac. Maybe if you own a TiBook you won't notice it, but get you hands on someones iBook and the difference will be noticable. Infact, I'm posting this right now from Safari, and it's still slow. Maybe slightly faster than Chimera, but still slow over all compared to my PC or when I'm in OS 9.

Re:TiVo via Rendezvous? Yuck, improve Tivo 1st!

[hondo77]

Long-term storage of programs recorded by Tivo onto somebody's Mac. A TV server that a family might have, like an MP3 server.

Use iCal and .mac to program your Tivo from anywhere on the web.

Watch porn you've downloaded onto your Mac on the TV via Tivo.

Preview iMovie-created movies on your TV via Tivo.

Just some thoughts.

Re:My soon-to-be rejected submission

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. I wish some folks on /. would grow some balls and get a sense of humor. Trolling4Dollars was making a good point and I do see humor in his name. If I had mod points today, I'mod him up, but it's going to take more than one person to combat the negativity of the moderators. I guess when someone rips your way of life, you retaliate by unfair moderation.

bigger keyboard

[sirshannon]

the keyboard is full-sized. I don't want a keyboard any larger than full-sized, unless it's a split keyboard. Most people don't like those, though, and that might be a bad idea.

maybe next year, their big innovation will be a laptop with a keyboard that slides apart so you can have it either way.

Re:bigger keyboard

[Hadlock]

i think ibm has a patent on that, from their thinkpads back in the mid 90's.

Konqaqua!

[PCM2]

t's the rendering engine and JavaScript support that's open source...you get can the source at anoncvs.kde.org

Right on! Here's hoping somebody can grab it and do a "normal" Aqua interface (i.e. no brushed aluminum), complete with tabbed browsing and an indicator of what URL you'll be going to before you click on it. Safari is ripe for a Chimera job.

Re:Konqaqua!

[e1en0r]

this "haxie" (lame name, i know) might be able to get rid of the brushed aluminum, assuming it's a cocoa app. i haven't tried it yet as i'm at work and they won't let me hook up my iBook to the network, but it's worth a shot. it unmetallifized iChat just fine for me. plus it's free. their windowshade haxie is also a nice addition, although that one will cost you $7. and no, i don't work for them, i just happened to stumble across their site and really like their stuff.

Re:Konqaqua!

[SteveM]

...and an indicator of what URL you'll be going to before you click on it.

Go to the View menu and select Status Bar (or command - \).

Steve M

Re:Konqaqua!

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have the Dev tools installed, just open up the various nib files and uncheck the 'Textured' attribute for each window. Works like a charm.

Re:Konqaqua!

[ealar dlanvuli]

You can change any nib you want either way by a simple load into Interface Builder and clicking one checkbox. Thats all thats required.

I currently have my entire desktop set to brushed metal (including finder) and it really does work quite nice (you have to have everything one way or the other for it to work though).

Re:Konqaqua!

[bnenning]

If you have the Dev tools installed, just open up the various nib files and uncheck the 'Textured' attribute for each window. Works like a charm.

Just quoting this at +2 and confirming that it works.

Re:Why are all Mac users fags???

[puetzk]

stealing? hardly. The list of contributions covers a very impressive number of optimizations and TODO's in KHTML, and the code was submitted with an excellent changelog. If this is stealing KHTML, we could sure do with more thieves like this :-)

They are doing exactly what the LGPL (as chosen by the KHTML authors) wanted them to do... improve KHTML, and use it.

better appellation than Safari?

[Anonymous Coward]

iBrowse - Unfortunatly, it's been taken by an Amiga browser. Still, wasn't "Cube" taken?

Autoadjust not just cool, actually important...

[alispguru]

... because it can help extend battery life, big time. Those of you with power-hungry x86 laptop CPUs may scoff at this, but my experience with my 500 MHz iBook has been that I can run it for a little over three hours with the display at full brightness, and a little over four hours with the display at its dimmest (and if you're on an airplane at night, that's actually a practical way to hack). This means the display accounts for about 25-30% of the power consumption. Anything that automatically makes the display draw an appropriate amount of power might extend my battery life half an hour or more.

Re:Autoadjust not just cool, actually important...

[Anonymous Coward]

4 hours on 500MHz tractor... big fuckin deal!

I can get 5 on my Dell Inspiron 8200 (1.8GHz with Geforce4Go -- same as in the newest powerbook) that has better specs even than this newest powerbook (minus the firewire800 that has currently 0 hw support and the overly big and unstandard screen). Just pop 2 batteries in the modular bay and I only get 1.2 pounds of weight more than the 6.8 pound powerbook...

It's funny how now every Apple zealot drools over the 17'' screen, while for the past year we had 15 and 16'' screens showing up on PC laptops and they were bitching how it was too big to be transportable.

Yet now suddenly, 7-pound/16'' monster is just fine to carry. Pop quiz: what kind of suitcase do you need to lug it around?

Re:Autoadjust not just cool, actually important...

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. 1.8Ghz. And how soon before Intel's SpeedStep 'feature' kick in???? And what is the effective clock rate once it does? 450MHz?

Just because the sticker says 1.8Ghz - that doesn't mean that the processor hasn't downshifted to conserve battery life. To get ANY decent battery life, it has to. A Pentium w/o speedstep burns power like mad.

Whereas, that 500Mhz iBook is running at 500Mhz - always.

Tom

Re:Autoadjust not just cool, actually important...

[Anonymous Coward]

Again, Apple zealot FUD. Go visit the website to educate yourself.

It downclocks to 1.2 GHz for your info, which is still faster than the powerbook (check the German powerspec benchmark where even the superold PIII 1GHz mangles the G4 1GHz in basic calculations, so don't even bother talking shit about GHz myth). For more education visit here:

http://www.azillionmonkeys.com/qed/apple.html

Re:Autoadjust not just cool, actually important...

[Anonymous Coward]

And how many dell laptops have I seen crack open at my company? By crack open I mean literally big fucking cracks exposing the entire computer as it fell apart further through delicate handling.

I'm trying to count... I loose track around 25.

Re:Autoadjust not just cool, actually important...

[OldStash]

Fair enough, the PowerBook's CPU is slower than most new Intel based laptops, but I'm willing to take the hit.
Gosh dang it! For 1G RAM and a DVD burner I'm willing to take multiple hits. Besides, what apps need 1G+ CPUs?

Re:Autoadjust not just cool, actually important...

[Anonymous Coward]

three words for ya:

Mobile multimedia workstation -- you can never have enough power...

For powerpoint-like presentations, any laptop produced in the last 5 years would do...

Re:Autoadjust not just cool, actually important...

[Anonymous Coward]

Fell apart through "delicate handling"? Do you guys have Ents or Trolls working at your company?

OTOH, I've seen TiBooks that do not want to power down, having to literally yank the battery out of them, they got easily scratched as well as had screens cracked from impact...

Dell's laptops are at least UPGRADABLE. I bought mine in the days of ATI Rage M4 mobility cards, got Geforce2Go, then Geforce4Go, and now considering getting Radeon 9000, all in the same computer...

I can swap stuff in and out, just as I deem fit, get a new HD in there -- no wander they call it desktop replacement.

All that for a $1K cheaper than a TiBook, and a helluva lot faster.

Re:Autoadjust not just cool, actually important...

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless an Intel or AMD based laptop is plugged in, they are rummored to run up 50% slower then the advertized speed to save on battery consumption. Therefore, the CPU hit isn't noticable on laptops as much as desktops.

Re:Autoadjust not just cool, actually important...

[MoneyT]

So you need 2 bateries to get 5 hours out of your Dell. As opposed to the 7 hours I could get out of two bateries for my powerbook.

As for the 0 support for firewire 800, everything has to start somewhere, and since PC people are afraid of change, I guess Apple has to start it.

So you've had 15 and 15 inch screens for a year, I believe Apple had had 15 inch for at least 2 years now. No one was bitching about 15 inches being to big. The only time I remember people bitching about 15 inches being to big was back when laptops were 2 - 3 inches thick, and heavy as a load of bricks.

And in all honesty, I think the 17 inch is too big, but people will buy it, someone always does.

Re:Autoadjust not just cool, actually important...

[Hamshrew]

even the superold PIII 1GHz mangles the G4 1GHz in basic calculations, so don't even bother talking shit about GHz myth)

Okay. I won't. Instead, I'll point out that the P4 is much slower than an equivalent P3 of the same clock speed. Nothing to do with the Mac, it's a well-known fact. So I don't even need to try refuting that powerspec benchmark, nor care to, since I have yet to see a meaningful powerspec benchmark.

Lack of USB 2.0

[yet another coward]

I read about USB 1.1 ports on the new PowerBook, but saw nothing about USB 2.0. It seems that USB 2.0 and Firewire would be a nice combination for maximum flexibility.

Why Tabs are Bad

[Josuah]

If you really think about it, however, you would realize that adding the tab feature to something like a web browser window is in fact BAD DESIGN. It may be more convenient for you, but it drastically changes what a window represents to the user.

With tabs, closing a window can in fact remove the contents of many windows. Something that should only happen when you quit the application. Granted, adding this as a default-off feature might be okay, but I can just see all the grandmas wondering why all their different web pages went away when they only closed the front window.

There would also need to be a cycle-tabs keystroke, in addition to the cycle-windows keystroke. (Something that does annoy me when I use tabs in Phoenix.)

Re:Why Tabs are Bad

[dangermouse]

If you really think about it, however, you would realize that adding the tab feature to something like a web browser window is in fact BAD DESIGN. It may be more convenient for you, but it drastically changes what a window represents to the user.

Hi. I am the user. What the hell are you talking about?

With tabs, closing a window can in fact remove the contents of many windows. Something that should only happen when you quit the application. Granted, adding this as a default-off feature might be okay, but I can just see all the grandmas wondering why all their different web pages went away when they only closed the front window.

Speaking as someone who has a grandma, I think you vastly underestimate her intelligence.

There would also need to be a cycle-tabs keystroke, in addition to the cycle-windows keystroke. (Something that does annoy me when I use tabs in Phoenix.)

Yep. There sure would. There are already keystrokes for changing tabs in Chimera and Mozilla, but they're a little unwieldy. I'd like to see simpler ones.

If using tabs is a pain for you, don't use tabs. But don't presume that tabbed browsing befuddles the rest of us. A lot of us use tabbed browsers and actually like it.

Re:Why Tabs are Bad

[X_Caffeine]

I think what he's saying is that tabs make the interface inconsistent. One of the marks of good interface design is that the same actions accomplishes the same thing throughout the program.

It's a bit like the whole double-click mess. Tons of people double-click hyperlinks and form buttons in web pages because their experience with Mac-Finder/Win-Explorer tells them that double-click means "make this do something."

Anyway, I love tabbed web browsers -- I generally have 6-10 websites open at any time, and that's far too many windows to juggle. Especially given that OS X is so cluttered and all the widgets are huge -- I can never seem to fit enough in a 1024x768 screen.

I think the answer to this particular interface inconsistency problem is to make tabbed browsing available for advanced users who are bright enough to turn it on. A bit like two-button mice; don't ship them with the computers, but have support ready for those who want to go out and buy them.

Re:Why Tabs are Bad

[spectral]

Uhh.. Ok, I'll bite.

1) If they don't know how to use tabs properly, where are they even going to get one from? New windows (javascript, targets) open in: new windows. Unless you go and change the option, no tabs, no worries.

2) ctrl+tab. similar to alt+tab for applications. Yes, it works in phoenix (I just did it) It even supports going backwards (ctrl+shift+tab) just like alt+shift+tab. This was all done using windows 2000 on a public computer btw.

3) You're thinking of things document centric anyway, which I guess considerign the article is a good thing, since this is a mac page. Windows tends to be application-centric, hence the MDI interfaces et al. where closing the program DOES close all the windows inside it. Basically tabbed browsing = MDI with a decent window switcher inside, from what I can tell. Which probably doesn't make it too surprising that apple did NOT implement it, since the apple paradigm is one window, one document. The document is the center, not the application (thus you can close document windows and leave applications open. Annoying at first, but sometimes useful)

Re:Why Tabs are Bad

[dangermouse]

My point is that there's a disconnect between what theory tells him and what reality is telling him, in this instance, and it's not useful to choose theory over reality when the two conflict.

Theory says that tabbed browsers should offer inconsistencies that frustrate users. The reality is that users love tabbed browsers. (Really, I can't think of anyone who's told me they don't like to have tabs.)

So instead of descending from the mount and telling us why we don't want what we think we want, figuring out how to make what we want work and doing it is the way to go.

Re:Why Tabs are Bad

[Twirlip of the Mists]

With tabs, closing a window can in fact remove the contents of many windows.

Finally! Somebody who gets it! Tabbed browsing rubs me the wrong way for this very reason. No other application uses the multiple-data-sources-in-one-window approach; having your browser do it makes for frustration and confusion.

Re:Why Tabs are Bad

[yandros]

Well, for straightforward, new-user sorts of things, perhaps `no other application' does, but many of the people here have used something like emacs, or nvi, or screen, or... and are quite used to (addicted to? desirous of?) the power, felxibility, and functionality you can get from these sorts of systems.

You have no idea how many people I know who looked at ichat and immediately downloaded Adium. ``It looks nice, and it does support more features, but I can't live without the tabbing!''.

...just think of it as the `virtual desktop' argument, all over again.

Re:Why Tabs are Bad

[psxndc]

Sorry but I "don't get it". To me, why should I have one application, even if it is doing eight different things, open eight windows. It should be contained in one window. Look at Office. Open 3 word docs and they all stay in one window. And it has a separate "close this doc" type widget. How hard would this be to implement in the browser? Not very. Tabs, to me at least, should be present in almost any application: Chat, web browsers, even mail programs could do it with accounts. I shouldn't have 24 windows open all over my desktop if I'm only using three applications.

psxndc

Re:Why Tabs are Bad

[Twirlip of the Mists]

Look at Office. Open 3 word docs and they all stay in one window.

No, they don't. Oh, wait, you're thinking of Microsoft's ill-advised MDI paradigm. I know for a fact that Word 2000 no longer forced that particular beast on users; I can't recall exactly when Microsoft dropped it.

MDI is a dumb idea. It blurs the line between an application and a document, and not in a good way. One document, one window is the right way to go.

Tabs, to me at least, should be present in almost any application

Oh, please. You have got to be kidding me. Tabs don't even really belong in preference dialogs, though that's where they got their start and that's where they mostly remain entrenched.

I shouldn't have 24 windows open all over my desktop if I'm only using three applications.

Pray tell, how are you going to look at two web pages at the same time unless you have two different windows? So it's not "one window with one tab per page," and it's not "one window per page." It's some bastardized combination of the two: "one window with some tabs, and another window with some other tabs." That's the kind of wooly-headed liberal thinking that leads to being eaten.

Re:Why Tabs are Bad

[dalamcd]

Tabs don't even really belong in preference dialogs, though that's where they got their start and that's where they mostly remain entrenched.

Where do you think they belong, then? (I hate tabbed browsing, for the record [though I can't live without them when it comes to iChat vs. Adium], I'm just curious.)

dalamcd

Re:Why Tabs are Bad

[Anonymous Coward]

That depends, at least in part, on the user.

The way I use tabs is that I open a new tab for a sub-page on the same site (e.g. I might have one window with tabs containing the slashdot main page, a slashdot discussion, a subthread in the discussion etc.) and a new window for a new, unrelated site. For me, it is very convenient, and since I primarily use keyboard shortcuts for things like closing windows, and there is a close tab/window combined combo in Chimera, so I don't accidentally close things I didn't mean to.

Of course right now I'm not using tabs since I'm using Safari...

Re:Why Tabs are Bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Bah! Apple's own development environment shuns the one window, one document paradigm. Project builder allows multiple split views of multiple loaded files in the same window.

Doesn't use tabs though. :)

Re:Why Tabs are Bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh hello?

I draw your attention to Apple's project builder, the environment that is supposed to be used to develop applications. Multiple split views of multiple files loaded in one window anyone?

1) Open mouth
2) Remove foot
3) Humbly apologise

Re:Why Tabs are Bad

[biglig2]

I guess Mr. Jobs's take on that would be that you need a 17" powerbook. ;-)

Actually, who doesn't need one?

Re:Why Tabs are Bad

[toriver]

With tabs, closing a window can in fact remove the contents of many windows.

With multitasking, turning off the computer can in fact kill many applications.

Users aren't stupid; if they use a tabbed/MDI application they learn to "close" tabs instead of the entire window.

Re:Why Tabs are Bad

[Twirlip of the Mists]

Where do you think they belong, then?

Nowhere! That was my point. While it is possible for tabs to be implemented well, and no doubt there are times where they're downright necessary, as a rule they're bad and wrong.

Re:Why Tabs are Bad

[Twirlip of the Mists]

The way I use tabs is that I open a new tab for a sub-page on the same site (e.g. I might have one window with tabs containing the slashdot main page, a slashdot discussion, a subthread in the discussion etc.) and a new window for a new, unrelated site.

SnapBack is your friend! It lets you drill down and then easily pop back up without having to have either piles of tabs or stacks of windows. In fact, I'm using it right now to reply to my Slashdot messages.

Re:Why Tabs are Bad

[Twirlip of the Mists]

Uh hello?

Project Builder, while an outstanding IDE, is hardly the acme of user interface design. That said, it still conforms to the "one document, one window" convention: in single-window mode, each project occupies one window. In "many windows" mode, a window is used for each major UI element, including one window per file. The difference is that single-window mode treats the project as the document, while "many windows" mode treats each file as a document.

Next time you post something sarcastic, you might want to take just a second to make sure you're right first. Otherwise, embarassment could result.

Re:Why Tabs are Bad

[r_barchetta]

It doesn't matter if I have web pages open in browser windows or browser tabs. I'm not going to be able to look at more than one page at a time anyway. My monitor isn't big enough to support two browser windows side-by-side (or stacked one above the other) and have either page be readable. And I'm not going to bother with the effort or money to set up a multi-monitor environment.

Given that I am not ever going to be able to see two web pages at the same time, I have to do some sort of switching. I'm fine with this. I find it is more beneficial to have one browser with 6-10 tabs than it is to have 6-10 browser windows open. All that ALT + TAB-ing gets really old. And I like being able see what webpages I have open just by looking at one window. This is not the One True Way(tm). It is what works for me.

When I'm doing editing with a text editor I generally keep several files open at once. (How many websites are comprised of just one file?) I don't want to have 20 text editor windows open. I want one text editor with 20 files open. This saves me from having to do save/open operations every time I change the file I'm working on. And it saves me from have to ALT + TAB through 20 application windows to find the file I'm looking for. CTRL + S and it's on to the next file.

Tabbed interfaces that employ good design are extremely useful for me.

"One document, one window" is the sort of narrow, view-the-world-with-blinders type of thinking that leads to a 16-ton weight being dropped on you. :)

-r

Re:Why Tabs are Bad

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the kind of wooly-headed liberal thinking that leads to being eaten.

Finally, someone with the guts to treat this subject like the political issue it really is.

Re:Why Tabs are Bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Idiot. It was a joke. A very obscure, and very, very funny joke. It was obviously designed to filter out the people who take it too seriously (like you, twit!) from the people who get it (like me! go me!).

Go back to the beginning and read this whole thread again. Maybe enlightenment will run up and smack you upside the head.

Re:Why Tabs are Bad

[Josuah]

Yes, you are a single user, and if you want to add tabs, go right ahead. But what I am saying is that adding tabs does break down what the interface's components and behavior represents to the user. It breaks the consistency. Maybe your grandma can deal with this, but there are a large number of people who can't even deal with a right mouse button (or can't understand why you single-click on links but double-click on things on your desktop, as someone else has mentioned).

A lot of people use tabs and like it. I like tabs sometimes. But a whole lot of people would just get very, very confused by tabs. Adding it even as a default-off feature (which I think may be okay...sort of, but I wouldn't do it myself) means the user has to try and keep track of one more possible interface inconsistency. Maybe they'll never come across it, but if by chance they do, then what?

Re:Why Tabs are Bad

[Josuah]

My point is that there's a disconnect between what theory tells him and what reality is telling him, in this instance, and it's not useful to choose theory over reality when the two conflict.

Theory says that tabbed browsers should offer inconsistencies that frustrate users. The reality is that users love tabbed browsers. (Really, I can't think of anyone who's told me they don't like to have tabs.)

Reality would also argue that two or three button mice are loved by users, where theory says it just causes problems. And for many users, the reality is they love more buttons. But the other reality is that many users don't even understand there's a difference between the two buttons, or why the right mouse button exists.

Apple has decided to try and make it so that a right mouse button is never necessary for convenience, efficiency, or functionality. So that people don't even have a real need to purchase or use a multiple-button mouse, even though you may really like it. I think this is an excellent approach. Tabbed browsing falls in the same area in my book.

Re:Why Tabs are Bad

[Josuah]

1) If they don't know how to use tabs properly, where are they even going to get one from? New windows (javascript, targets) open in: new windows. Unless you go and change the option, no tabs, no worries.

Until they use someone else's computer. Or accidentally hit the right keystroke or mouse combination to open a tabbed window. And there is still the problem that this additional "feature" requires them to maybe be aware of it. If you put a cruise control button on a car, the driver never really needs to learn how to use it or anything, but it does become something that he or she does need to be aware of, just in case. This adds complexity. Even if he or she never intends to use it.

Re:Why Tabs are Bad

[Josuah]

Bah! Apple's own development environment shuns the one window, one document paradigm. Project builder allows multiple split views of multiple loaded files in the same window.

Doesn't use tabs though. :)

And this does make a big difference. (Plus developers are generally savvy enough to deal with something like this.) Split views is not the same as hidden views. In fact, if you close a window in Project Builder, you don't "lose" the document. It is still "loaded" in Project Builder (sort-of). You can access it from the "open files" menu in one of those editor windows.

Closing a project window, however, does close the project.

Re:Why Tabs are Bad

[Josuah]

Well, for straightforward, new-user sorts of things, perhaps `no other application' does, but many of the people here have used something like emacs, or nvi, or screen, or... and are quite used to (addicted to? desirous of?) the power, felxibility, and functionality you can get from these sorts of systems.

Emacs is hardly a shining example of what makes a good user interface.

Re:Why Tabs are Bad

[psxndc]

Oh, please. You have got to be kidding me. Tabs don't even really belong in preference dialogs, though that's where they got their start and that's where they mostly remain entrenched.

So you should have a separate window for every preference dialog? Please tell me you're kidding. As for looking at two windows at one time, which I admit is useful, I should be able to open a second instance of the browser. But I shouldn't be forced to. What kills me is that people bitch about something like wanting tabs, and people come around saying "No. It doesn't make your life any easier because I say it doesn't. It's bad design because I think it's ugly and non-useful. Therefor it should never exist". How about they implement it and if it makes my life easier I use them. If you don't like them, don't use them.

psxndc

Re:Why Tabs are Bad

[Twirlip of the Mists]

So you should have a separate window for every preference dialog?

Behold the OS X System Preferences application. That's a good multi-mode, non-document user interface. Each preference pane takes over the whole window, except for the toolbar. Preference panes can be selected from the menu, from the main screen, or from the user-configurable toolbar. This beats the shit out of tabs because it's extensible, among other reasons.

Of course, some preference panes include tabs within them. I'll consider those to be just barely acceptable, as long as the content of each tab is independent of each other tab, and there are no more than about 4 or 5 tabs in total.

Sherlock also has the same basic UI: each Sherlock channel is a pane, and each pane is independent. Wouldn't work for a browser, because it's not suitable for a document-type interface, but for a multi-mode interface, it kicks.

What kills me is that people bitch about something like wanting tabs, and people come around saying "No. It doesn't make your life any easier because I say it doesn't.

Actually, just to be clear, I'm saying that I don't care whether tabs in your web browser make your life easier or not. They're a bad UI design, and if asked I would opine that they don't belong in any browser, even as an option. If you don't like it, either use a browser that has them, like Mozilla, or write your own. Like Mozilla. But don't argue that they should be included in a browser that strives to have a clean, consistent, friendly UI. They shouldn't.

Re:Why Tabs are Bad

[psxndc]

But don't argue that they should be included in a browser that strives to have a clean, consistent, friendly UI

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I personally think tabs make it more user friendly and if every program included them like I think they should ;-) then it would be consistent. You disagree. I don't think we're going to convince each other.

But for the record: I hate the way OS X deals with their preferences. It seems klunky. And why can I get to the System preferences eight different ways? I should be able to do it one way. Again, these are matters of opinion and I don't think either of us will ever be "right". It's all personal preference.

psxndc

Re:Why Tabs are Bad

[Twirlip of the Mists]

I personally think tabs make it more user friendly and if every program included them like I think they should ;-) then it would be consistent.

This, as has been said before, harkens back to the bad old days of Windows' MDI paradigm. It was a bad idea then, and it's a bad idea now.

And why can I get to the System preferences eight different ways? I should be able to do it one way.

You can get to it two ways: launching the System Preferences app, or using the System Preferences menu item. That's it. Just two.

Re:Why Tabs are Bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh I see, so the notion of a file conveniently changes when it suits your way of thinking, to encompass a whole project. A project is composed of seperate files. A file being a distinct chunk of data referenced by it's own directory entry.

I don't see any method in project builder of turning off the multiple files in one window mode of operation completely, so I guess in addition to redefining the notion of a file, you're also ignoring some of the best features of what is about the only useful programmers editor on the Mac.

I'm surprised there's still room for you to squeeze air out of your mouth with both your feet in there.

Re:Why Tabs are Bad

[Twirlip of the Mists]

I don't see any method in project builder of turning off the multiple files in one window mode of operation completely

Project Builder menu -> Preferences. Look under "Task Templates."

tip: how to limit runs of animated gifs

[davebo]

Open (or create, if it's not alread there) "~/Library/Application Support/Chimera/Profiles/(random)/prefs.js". Add this line then save it as text, not rtf:

user_pref("image.animation_mode", once);

(PS - I stole this directly from here )

Thank you, Apple!

[Brian Knotts]

The petulant griping of the Mozilla fanboys aside, Apple has done a great thing here.

I am a Konqueror user, and am very happy that Apple has contributed a large number of improvements to KHTML, with more to come, I'm sure!

Thank you, Apple!

Re:Thank you, Apple!

[pressman]

I'm thrilled they went with KHTML as the rendering engine. I have a Dell something or other laptop that I installed SuSE Linux on just to learn more about it and Konqueror came with it. Konqueror made me very happy; light, fast, responsive. An all around great browser despite the lack of Flash and Quicktime support.

It's good to see such a responsive browser available for OS X.

Re:Thank you, Apple!

[Brian Knotts]

FYI, Flash does work with Konqueror. Dunno about Quicktime.

Re:Thank you, Apple!

[pressman]

Interesting! How did I manage to never hit a Flash site while browsing with Konqueror?

Re:Thank you, Apple!

[Brian Knotts]

Well, you do have to install it, and then in Konqueror's preferences, let the plugin thingy find it. But I have used it for a while, and Flash 6 works just fine.

i don't like Safari

[wanchai]

other than the speed, which is amazingly fast, i'd keep using chimera cos safari

• has no keychain support
• doesn't show the link when mouseover (i just figured out that you can drap a link to see the URL, but it's still not as good as seeing it by mouseover)
• the metalic look is no good, but it's more of a personal perference and it's minor.
• auto complete of url is not as convinent as chimera. typing www.apple goes nowhere.
• bookmarking is slightly better (than chimera) but the way safari downloads is terrible: all downloads goes to the download folder, saving to other places is not even an option. so what should i do with all these files in the download folder? clean them up from time to time? by just looking at the file name? i forget what "agenda.txt" is about after a couple mins I download it.

there's no better way to file the file while you download, same as bookmarking. but steve has improved bookmarking and take away the most basic function and think he's done a great job in user experience.

other than forcing the download to a specific folder, the download window is not as good as the download manager in IE. i can't delete items?

I replaced IE with safari in my dock though and use it as my alt browser. not sure how good safari can handle pages that does and doesn't follow the w3 standard. may switch back to IE for this (incorrect) reason.

i hope the google intergration is has all the toolbar functions. I use IE on Win just for that reason. snapback? give me a break. it's just one of the tiny feature on the google toolbar.

Re:i don't like Safari

[Twirlip of the Mists]

has no keychain support

It does, but only for HTTP auth passwords, not passwords you enter into a CGI form.

doesn't show the link when mouseover

Turn on the status bar. (Hint: cool stuff can be found under the View menu.)

the metalic look is no good, but it's more of a personal perference and it's minor.

You can turn it off if it really means that much to you. See other posts for the NIB trick.

auto complete of url is not as convinent as chimera. typing www.apple goes nowhere.

Use the same number of keystrokes and type "apple.com."

all downloads goes to the download folder, saving to other places is not even an option

Yes, but dragging-and-dropping from your downloads folder is. Quicker and easier, too.

so what should i do with all these files in the download folder? clean them up from time to time?

Not to put it bluntly, but yes. Keeping your own folders clean is still something you have to do manually.

snapback? give me a break. it's just one of the tiny feature on the google toolbar.

SnapBack works any time you type a URL into the address bar. You can also invoke it at any time by using the "Mark page for SnapBack" item under the History menu, or typing command-option-M.

Re:i don't like Safari

[anarkhos]

You forgot to mention System Preferences still lack a panel to change the file type mappings. You still have to use IE for that.

FYI: You can change the main browser window to not be "textured" using interface builder. I did this, the result is pleasing.

Extended Desktop!!!!!!!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

For me it's simple.

A sub-notebook sized, full featured, powerful portable with a kick ass video card that can drive a 1600x1200 (?) external monitor.

A true portable that doubles as a desktop for a resonable price.

It's kind of funny... I was dreaming of just such a thing the other day.

I AM SOLD.

why switch and keep using X11??

[Jamie Zawinski]

I can't imagine switching to MacOS X and then continuing to willingly inflict the X Windows Disaster on myself. I mean, wouldn't that be the whole point of switching?

But of course the only question that really matters is, does XScreenSaver work properly under OSXX11?

Re:why switch and keep using X11??

[OnlyRB]

But of course the only question that really matters is, does XScreenSaver [jwz.org] work properly under OSXX11?

It used to crash my X11 on Linux as well, a couple of years ago, so I gave up ...

"Open Source - We Think It's Great"

[vought]

Who else but Linux devotees goes to a Linux convention? People don't use operating systems as their job - they usually do something else.

My point is, that by promoting the ideas and benefits of Open Source to Graphic Artists, Travelling Business People, "Creative Types" and the Casual Mac User(tm), Apple is doing more to promote open source among non-technical people than any other company out there - at least any other company my grandmother has heard of, anyway.

Here's a screen shot:

Apple Keynote Screen Shot

Is Safari based on Konqueror??

[blakespot]

Is Safari based on Konqueror?? Truly??

Where is this shown?

blakespot

Re:Is Safari based on Konqueror??

[jwsellers]

Right on the Safari page.

"For its Web page rendering engine, Safari draws on software from the Konqueror open source project. Weighing in at less than one tenth the size of another open source renderer, Konqueror helps Safari stay lean and responsive. And of course, being a good open source citizen, Apple shares its enhancements with the Konqueror open source community."

Re:i don't like Safari (one more thought)

[wanchai]

I think the missing of (or excluding) tabs is not a bad idea though. Tabbing is re-inventing the wheel. After trying it in chimera, and on WIN Opera, i found myself always wasting time in finding the page I opened. it's a different story if everything is tabbed (or tab new windows as default). but that brings out other problems because opening up a seperate window is more common and you can move things around.

I have to admit that I love the shadowing of windows and the missing of window borders. Seeing more windows overlapping on my screen doesn't bother me at all.

Apple's own X11 for OS X!

[andrewski]

Check out www.apple.com/macosx/x11/ for a little extra treat! X11 on OS X with hardware acceleration! Holy cow!

Obligatory Safari comments (posting from it now)

[wirelessbuzzers]

Like every mac geek out there, I have to post my comments on the new browser. So here goes:

1) It's bitching fast! Much faster than Moz for rendering HTML. Marginally faster than Chimera. Loads fast, light, runs fast, downloads fast.

2) Nice interface! Google toolbar too! I'm not a huge fan of brushed metal and similar iCandy, but this was really well done. The bookmarks are especially nice. Good default fonts too (although white on black would be nice for generic text files, but hey, what can you do?

3) A bit buggy. Especially with java. Some of the defaults are messy. But hey, it's a beta.

4) Missing features: Everything is drag-n-droppable except text, which is mostly what I want to drag-n-drop. No tabs. No "always ask" mode for cookies. No sidebar, but I don't care so much about that. And worst, no way to give them feedback other than bug reports (don't send a bug report containing a feature request; that will just piss them off. Email them instead, I don't know where. Forums?)

Re:Mac guys

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. You're a fucking idiot. Try OS X. It's been out for a couple of years now.

This will make toasty tech mad

[xombo]

Nathan isn't going to like this, it might make him anti mac, as you can see here, Nathan of the infamous toasty tech HATES brower intergration, and it said it will be FULLY INTERGRATED INTO OSX.

Re:This will make toasty tech mad

[WebMasterJoe]

Holy bad web design, batman! Animated .gif's as a background image was only cool the first time it could be done, and even then it wasn't cool. And nobody wants to hear some midi file start up when you open the page. Considering how little this guy seems to know about what web pages should look like, I don't think his opinions on IE are worth anything.

Re:This will make toasty tech mad

[xombo]

He is really smart, but that is what makes it FUNNY

Re:This will make toasty tech mad

[WebMasterJoe]

He is really smart, but that is what makes it FUNNY

Bad, annoying design is not the same as humor. And being smart doesn't mean he can design web pages. I could understand if maybe the rest of his site didn't also look like crap. Why does each page need a different background pattern? That first link has some horrible color combinations, too. You can't get away with saying he intentionally made the page look bad when every other page on the site sucks, too.

Posting from Konq from linux over X11 from iBook

[Milo77]

Maybe that's not clear, but I am at my iBook, using the just released X11, running konqueror off my linux box. Well, I was gonna post from safari, but it looks like a few others beat me to it.

Question: why is running konqueror over my 802.11b network on apple's X11 faster than running it locally (or perhaps they're the same speed)? Anyway, my point is either there is something wrong with X11 on my linux box or there is something very right about X11 on my mac. At any rate this beats the pants off terminal services.

Re:Why are all Mac users fags???

[Anonymous Coward]

Please stop feeding the trolls.

Hidden Shortcut List in Safari

[Anonymous Coward]

While Apple has provided a small shortcut/keystroke list in Help Viewer for Safari, a better one exists hidden in the Safari package at:

/Applications/Safari/Contents/Resources/English.lp roj/Shortcuts.html
You can see all sorts of hidden shortcuts, as well as some obvious ones.

Hotmail not hot at all!!

[jnolla]

Safari seems not to be working when I try to login my hotmail account!!!

Open Source Projects In Safari

[Anonymous Coward]

A list of the acknolowgements included with Safari follows:

Acknowledgments
Portions of this Apple Software may utilize the following copyrighted material, the use of which is hereby acknowledged.

Lars Knoll, et al. ( khtml )
Copyright © 1997 Martin Jones ; Copyright © 1998, 1999 Torben Weis ; Copyright © 1998, 1999, 2002 Waldo Bastian ; Copyright © 1998-2000 Lars Knoll ; Copyright © 1999, 2001 Antti Koivisto ; Copyright © 1999-2001 Harri Porten ; Copyright © 2000 Simon Hausmann ; Copyright © 2000, 2001 Dirk Mueller ; Copyright © 2000, 2001 Peter Kelly ; Copyright © 2000 Daniel Molkentin ; Copyright © 2000 Stefan Schimanski
The khtml software is released under the GNU Library General Public License Version 2.

Lucent Technologies ( dtoa.cpp )
Copyright © 1991, 2000, 2001 by Lucent Technologies. The author of this software is David M. Gay.
Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software for any purpose without fee is hereby granted, provided that this entire notice is included in all copies of any software which is or includes a copy or modification of this software and in all copies of the supporting documentation for such software.
THIS SOFTWARE IS BEING PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTY. IN PARTICULAR, NEITHER THE AUTHOR NOR LUCENT MAKES ANY REPRESENTATION OR WARRANTY OF ANY KIND CONCERNING THE MERCHANTABILITY OF THIS SOFTWARE OR ITS FITNESS FOR ANY PARTICULAR PURPOSE.

Netscape Communications Corporation ( arena files )
Copyright © 1998-2000 Netscape Communications Corporation.
For khtml/misc/arena.[h|cpp], other contributors are: Nick Blievers ; Jeff Hostetler ; Tom Rini ; Raffaele Sena ; David Baron ; Christian Biesinger ; Randall Jesup ; Roland Mainz ; Josh Soref ; Boris Zbarsky .
This library is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the terms of the GNU Lesser General Public License as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2.1 of the License, http://www.fsf.org/copyleft/lesser.html, or (at your option) any later version.
This library is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU Lesser General Public License for more details.
You should have received a copy of the GNU Lesser General Public License along with this library; if not, write to the Free Software Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple Place, Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307, USA.
Alternatively, the contents of this file may be used under the terms of either the Mozilla Public License Version 1.1, found at http://www.mozilla.org/MPL/ (the?MPL?) or the GNU General Public License Version 2.0, found at http://www.fsf.org/copyleft/gpl.html (the "GPL"), in which case the provisions of the MPL or the GPL are applicable instead of those above. If you wish to allow use of your version of this file only under the terms of one of those two licenses (the MPL or the GPL) and not to allow others to use your version of this file under the LGPL, indicate your decision by deletingthe provisions above and replacethem with the notice and other provisions required by the MPL or the GPL, as the case may be. If you do not delete the provisions above, a recipient may use your version of this file under any of the LGPL, the MPL or the GPL.

Harri Porten, et al. ( kjs - JavaScriptCore based on kjs )
Copyright © 1999-2001 Harri Porten ; Copyright © 2001 Peter Kelly
The kjs software is released under the GNU Library General Public License Version 2. The authors also thank the following people for their help: Richard Moore, Daegeun Lee, Marco Pinelli, and Christian Kirsch. [Apple note: For a copy of the GNU Library General Public License, please refer to the Lars Knoll (khtml) attribution above, where a copy of the LGPL is included.]

University of Cambridge ( PCRE )
Copyright © 1997-2001 University of Cambridge
PCRE LICENCE
PCRE is a library of functions to support regular expressions whose syntax and semantics are as close as possible to those of the Perl 5 language. Written by: Philip Hazel University of Cambridge Computing Service, Cambridge, England. Phone: +44 1223 334714.
Copyright © 1997-2001 University of Cambridge
Permission is granted to anyone to use this software for any purpose on any computer system, and to redistribute it freely, subject to the following restrictions:
1. This software is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
2. The origin of this software must not be misrepresented, either by explicit claim or by omission. In practice, this means that if you use PCRE in software which you distribute to others, commercially or otherwise, you must put a sentence like this
Regular expression support is provided by the PCRE library package,
which is open source software, written by Philip Hazel, and copyright
by the University of Cambridge, England.
somewhere reasonably visible in your documentation and in any relevant files or online help data or similar. A reference to the ftp site for the source, that is, to ftp://ftp.csx.cam.ac.uk/pub/software/programming/p cre/
should also be given in the documentation.
3. Altered versions must be plainly marked as such, and must not be misrepresented as being the original software.
4. If PCRE is embedded in any software that is released under the GNU General Purpose Licence (GPL), or Lesser General Purpose Licence (LGPL), then the terms of that licence shall supersede any condition above with which it is incompatible.
The documentation for PCRE, supplied in the "doc" directory, is distributed under the same terms as the software itself.

bite me steve: Safari requires the $129 Jaguar

[tinguru]

From http://www.apple.com/safari/download/

• Before you download
  Check the system requirements:
  • Mac OS X version 10.2 "Jaguar" or later
  • Any Macintosh computer
  
  Mac OS X 10.2 "Jaguar"
  $129.00
  [Buy Now]

Jobs is more sinister than Gates! :) I wonder if there is any way I can go on the iSafari without taking a $69* chunk out of my wallet. (* $69 is the educational price of Jaguar)

Re:Software trade-in incentives...

[twocoasttb]

Yeah, the correct approach is to take the issue to the respective software company. But it seems to me that Apple would have done itself a favor by going to Adobe (among others) and pressing the issue a bit before launching the Switch campaign (who knows, maybe they did). Anyway, it would have been cool if they could have convinced Adobe et. all to make the cross-grade price cheaper than the normal upgrade price. I own too many Adobe products to make the switch at once; especially when adding all those upgrade costs to the price of some choice new hardware. Maybe someday...

Gecko v. KHTML in Safari

[kalidasa]

I'm disappointed that Apple didn't convert Chimera to Safari and so provide improvements to the Gecko engine. On the other hand, given David Hyatt's presence on the Safari team, I assume they at least made an informed decision.

As I see it, the disadvantages to using Gecko are mainly 1. the huge size of the code base, 2. the relationship with AOL/TW, 3. the slowness of the engine (relative to KHTML, if my day's work with Safari is any guide).

The disadvantages to using KHTML: not as standards compliant (though it is standards-based, like Gecko and Opera and OmniWeb; it is more compliant I believe than OmniWeb is).

The disadvantages of Safari over Chimera: no tabs; don't like the bookmarks UI much, not as configurable, and I like having a status bar.

The Safari beta seems more stable than Chimera. That's not saying much, though, as Chimera's one problem is stability.

Ultimately the presence of a KHTML-based Apple browser is good for open source, and what's good for open source is good for Mozilla. The competition may also be good for Chimera (and I doubt Apple sees Chimera as something it wants quashed). Also, the entry of a new non-IE browser with instant market share (I'd love to know how many Safari users there are already, just this evening) is good for web standards.

Posted with Safari by a Mozilla user.

Re:Gecko v. KHTML in Safari

[Coretti]

The disadvantages of Safari over Chimera: no tabs; don't like the bookmarks UI much, not as configurable, and I like having a status bar.

Have you looked under the View menu? Or hit Command-\ ?

The status bar is there, it's just hidden at first.

Re:Gecko v. KHTML in Safari

[kalidasa]

Have you looked under the View menu? Or hit Command-\ ?

Thanks, Coretti. Yeah, I noticed that last night after I posted this, and felt like an idiot. It's more configurable than I thought it is.

Why not to use Gecko?

[Anonymous Coward]

As said by the creator of Chimera itself, the name says it all.

Chimera respresents an unholy alliance between Gecko's un-threadsafe C code, and the Obj-C based Aqua frameworks.

KHTML simply provided a FAR better basis for tying into Aqua/OSX than Gecko ever will. Apple has taken on the less developed of the two technologies. and wil have their work cut out if they want to develop it further, but it creates by far the best platform to start from if OSX integration is to be a priority.

nuff said

Re:Why not to use Gecko?

[Anonymous Coward]

Like I said earlier - please look at the development team - the people who decided to use the KHTML code as a basis were people who'd done extensive work in the Mozilla/Gecko code.

They had very strong reasons for not wanting to step back into that slimepit.

Re:Why not to use Gecko?

[DrXym]

Eh? Gecko is threadsafe, assuming you use it correctly, calling objects on the same thread that you were handed an XPCOM pointer to them on. And if you want to call an object from some other thread you can do so assuming you marshal the call or know the object in question is free threaded. Most of this is transparent since XPConnect can create proxy objects that marshal calls between threads over an event queue.

In fact, it would prove quite a good fit for Cocoa, which isn't multithreaded either unless you explicitly kick off a new thread. And if you do go multithreaded then you could still call objects in the ways listed above.

Certainly Gecko may have some threading issues, but these are more to do with what-if scenarios that no one has tested, e.g. what if you run the layout engine on a worker thread? etc. My guess would be yes it would work but until someone tries, who knows?

As for KHTML, I doubt the answer is likely to be any different. A glance through lxr.kde.org suggests that large chunks of it are thread unsafe too, e.g. two threads programatically altering the DOM are not protected from stomping over each other.

Would you mind telling us how you did it?

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate looping gif animations. thx.

lack of browsers? :)

[Anonymous Coward]

"Both great ideas, but... it's not like we'd lack mailers/browsers anyway, is it? What I'd really like to see them (or someone) do is an integrated mail+news reader. Like (pine, emacs, the good'uns...) but graphical too. ("For my woman" ;-)"

Yeah, OS X kinda has the most browsers of any platform.
Mozilla and its friends, chimera, netscape, iCab, Opera, IE and now Safari, makes 7. I don't think any other platform has that many, not even windows.

12" Powerbook. Great. Too bad about Nvidia

[obi]

Dammit. I was considering getting an Ibook, but knew had to wait for MWSF. The new, small powerbook is GREAT, except for 1 thing: the NVidia graphics card.

I really wish they threw in an ATI9000 in there. the Geforce has no Pixel/Vertex Shaders, which I wanted to play with. And second, and more importantly, it has no 3D drivers for linux, not even closed ones.

Don't get me wrong, MacOS X is nice and all, but a bit too restricted to my taste. Good to run the occasional proprietary soft on, but for all the real work I'd prefer Linux.

Why, oh why doesn't nvidia release drivers for Linux PPC!! They have some for Linux AMD64, IA64, X86... UGH!

Same keyboard in 12" vs 17"??

[SpectreGadget]

Why in the world would they put the same freaking keyboard that's in the smallest model in the big 17" mamoo? You've got all this real estate and could put in a decent sized and spaced keyboard. I mean I understand the cost savings of using the same parts, but it's so rediculous in that huge area. Lighted keys would definitely be more useful, Research in Motion realized that when they brought out the new Blackberries

David Hyatt is on the Safari team?

[X_Caffeine]

Does that mean the death of Chimera?

Re:David Hyatt is on the Safari team?

[hysterion]

He just posted a few comments.

Is Internal Apple Laptop Keyboard USB Yet???

[Anonymous Coward]

For a long time (forever), Apple laptop keyboards have had internal ADB keyboards.

This presented a problem for everybody who has a need to re-program the CapsLock key into a Ctrl key. I won't repeat my open letter to Apple here, because I don't yet know if Apple has corrected the flawed hardware design of the ADB keyboard. I hope they have.

Does anybody know?

Is the new keyboard in the new Apple laptops a USB keyboard, or is it still an ADB keyboard?

Please note: this is not a troll. I really want to know if I can now use Apple's laptops. If I can, I want to thank the people inside Apple who read my previous requests, and acted upon them. If not, I want to ask Apple again to remedy the problem.

Hats off to OroborOSX

[ReadParse]

So when I found that Apple had come out with X11 for OS X, the first thing I thought was "So what? That's already been done. Somewhere along the way (probably while waiting for the new X11's "Optimizing" process to finish), I went over to the OroborOSX site to see if they had mentioned Apple's new X11, and that was when I remembered what's so cool about (most of) the open source community.

They didn't bash it. They didn't knock it. They didn't even complain about it. They said something like, "How does this affect our project? We don't know. Download it. Check it out. Don't forget to back up the X11 directories beforehand, just in case." And they linked to a message forum thread on their site that had been created to talk about this new product from Apple. Even in the forum, there was very little criticism of Apple's X11 product, and everything critical they had to say was constructive.

Even though this product could completely obliterate the need for their software, they were open to an alternative. They didn't go into FUD mode and immediately issue press releases bashing the "competition".

One could argue that they have no reason to get upset or concerned, because they were giving their software away anyway. No money to be made or lost, right? So take your ball and go home. Not so. You can't tell me there's no pride in Open Source. These people found a void and filled it, and the void could very well be filled AGAIN by the very people who caused the void in the first place. It would be very understandable for the OroborOSX team to get a little miffed.

Hats off to these guys for representing the best of the Open Source Community, which most often really DOES seem to be about ensuring that we all have the very best software that we can get, no matter who makes it.

Now I'll check to see if my "optimization" is done yet, and I'll begin my little evaluation of Apple's new effort. But I will be very careful to REMEMBER who has already been here and to not forget the work that they have done. Now that they have been here, the bar has been RAISED for Apple and they will have to produce quality software. This is a great role for Open Source software, if nothing else.

Cheers,
RP

Re:Hats off to OroborOSX

[TellarHK]

I have to wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment. I believe the OroborOSX team did an excellent job, and had I the time to really get into using it, it would have really become a staple of my powerbook. Thanks, whoever you all are.

Re:Hats off to OroborOSX

[Anonymous Coward]

> Even though this product could completely
> obliterate the need for their software

Who, in God's name, would prefer X11 to Aqua?!

Re:Hats off to OroborOSX

[Junta]

As much as I loved OrborOSX, I have to say this was very much needed. One, the integration is even smoother with Apple's X11, and secondly, acceleration for 2D and 3D operations was very needed.

Apple Commericals!

[Numeric]

http://www.apple.com/hardware/video/

An Informative AdApple Execs discussing the new PowerBook

Big Small-Funny Ad with Mini Me and Yao Ming

Cosmos-Simple Apple ad w/ the Powerbook

Re:Not bad - My only complaint

[Chuqmystr]

My only complaint being that I was just about to throw down the gauntlet and get me a combo drive 12" iBook, bump it upto 256, add airport, and eventually find some sort of bluetooth dongle. But now with that 12" powerbook out there I might as well save a little longer. Nice, very nice. (Chuq mopes off to the corner with his curent, ancient laptop drooling and mumbling at the pretty powerbook pictures and feature list...)

Re:Am I the only one having problems with Safari??

[Frodo2002]

Ha ha ha :)

Re:...has fiber-optic *lightning* for the keyboard

[Beryllium Sphere(tm)]

I, too, was galvanized by that announcement. It should create a surge of interest in everyone who's not insulated from current events.

"Puns -- never apologize, never explain"

Re:My soon-to-be rejected submission

[Anonymous Coward]

Your humor often misses the mark because it's a little more retarded than most. Idiot.

I'll give it a shot, but...

[no toys in the attic]

I'll try out Safari, but I have a funny feeling I won't be regressing from Mozilla. There isn't a browser out there that has such a productive open source community. The huge libraries of frightfully useful plug-ins (after mouse gestures, I've found that using IE is incredibly tedious) on http://www.mozdev.org are just too good to pass up. I won't doubt that Mozilla is somewhat slower in load time, but rendering time is relatively negligible, I'm sure.

Examples!

[prockcore]

No offense to KDE which I hold oh so dear over any other WM system, but Gecko is just a better engine.

A perfect example are the articles at www.iht.com. They work perfectly under Gecko, IE, and Opera. They don't work at all under KHTML-based browsers. Because KHTML doesn't support the overflow css tag (to name one or two)

Re:Examples!

[tryfan]

I must be missing something. What, exactly, at www.iht.com, doesn't work in Konqueror?
It looks very good in my Konqi 3.1.0 (Kde 3.1 RC5).

Now my prOn loads 200% faster... Thanks Apple!

[UncleRage]

But it saved all the pictures to my desktop... and now my wife's leaving me.

Thanks Apple!!!

----
All sarcasm in this post is intended, unless unintentional.

Yes!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes! Use a tabbed window manager instead of making the browser do the window mananger's job!

PDF Export

[vanguard]

FYI, everything that can print had PDF export on the mac. Converting to a PDF is part of the printing process in OSX. What I'm getting at here is that mac users already have PDF export in ppt. Vanguard

Re:PDF Export

[King Babar]

FYI, everything that can print had PDF export on the mac. Converting to a PDF is part of the printing process in OSX. What I'm getting at here is that mac users already have PDF export in ppt. Vanguard

Um, yeah. I did know that of course, since that's how I sanitize read-only Word documents. I probably did have something in mind back there, but I have no idea what it was now. :-)

I copied my proxy configs

[SHEENmaster]

from the mosaic man pages. No other ones had the information and "which manual should I RTFM?" fall on deaf IRC ears.

KLyX

[jbolden]

If you remember there used to be a KDE word processor called KLyX which is based on LyX. LyX has genuine advantages that Word doesn't (which is not to say its a better product but unlike most of the compitition its not obviously worse). My guess is that KLyX could be easily resinced again and or Apple could just create "AppleLyX" (or something. With some interface work + feature enhancements (both of which Apple is good at) LyX/KLyX/AppleLyX could easily be a substantially better product than Word:

-- professional quality typesetting
-- good handeling of complex documents
-- logical document design (vs. graphical design)
-- truly cross platform
-- excellent printer support
-- support for complex fonts (important for asia).

etc...

I've always believed that LyX should be where open source focuses for the Word processor. Its going to be impossible to chase the .doc format; its not going to be impossible to beat a product that hasn't changed much since 1993.

Re:KLyX

[jovlinger]

I dunno. TeX is turing complete. There is a reason why pdf is preferred over ps: people like knowing that the fractal they're printing isn't being generated on the fly (pretty cool actually).

The thing is that turing completeness makes it undecidable whether a document ever produces output, and makes it basically impossible to reason about the internal structure. PS survived as long as it did because most people stuck to document structuring CONVENTIONS, with semantically meaningful comments.

yuck.

Mind you, that said, I LOVE TeX, but I don't think it's what my sister should use.

Re:KLyX

[jbolden]

Well your mixing up levels here. LyX resolves to TeX which resolves to postscript which resolves to "stable version" ~ .pdf. You can similarly have Word produce postscript and pass direct postscript comments through a Word doc. Certainly .pdf is much more limited than postscript but dvipdf works fine so issues with postscript can be handled.

BTW my wife does humanities stuff. More and more I see the where TeX would have worked much better:

a) The need for translation fonts
b) The need to be able to search for certain types of interaction
c) The need for databases to work well with her material
d) The need for electronic versions to be stable across decades

All these things TeX works much better than word for.

Shouldn't our enthusiasm be more measured?

[Splurk]

Of course Apple deserves to succeed for creating products the way they ought to be created.

But I'm surprised by the lack of protest at their new-found ambition to provide every bit of software and hardware. Sure, Apple is a benevolent dictator now, but power without competition breeds corruption. And remember, if Microsoft's monopoly had stretched into hardware, Linux might never have existed. If Apple succeeds at becoming a top computing platform, I don't think I'll be so comfortable making mine an iLife(R).

Re:Shouldn't our enthusiasm be more measured?

[Anonymous Coward]

That'd not fair... Apple released Safari back to the public under the GPL... what more do you want?

2 levels of browsers

[jbolden]

Here is an example of where it is useful that I don't think is uncommon

I often have multiple webpages open on unrelated topics like: foreign newspaper, yahoo email and slashdot. When I'm reading a web page I often want to fork to a link and get to it latter. Related webpages go in tabs unrelated go in seperate windows.

Apple surfs at -1

[Anonymous Coward]

so should you.

Re:Why are all Mac users f**s???

[catscan2000]

Well, many are straight, including Jobs, though I did come across several friend-of-Dorothy cuties :-). My, do they hire them young at Apple ;-) (I'm young too (23), but not as cute). On my way home, a trio of Apple twinks got off MUNI with me at Castro, though I they went a different direction than I did since I wanted to get home to try out Virtual PC 6 ;-). And I already have a loving, caring partner ;-), though he still prefers OS 9. They're probably still in the Castro this moment if you're looking for cute dates :-) (unless if you read this post later).

shift-scroll wheel in Safari

[djcatnip]

Just a nicety I just noticed about Safari:

holding down the shift key and scrolling the wheel on my mouse changes the vertical scroll to a horizontal scroll, just like bbedit does (and unfortunately mozilla does not)... and as a web developer, I find this feature to be extremely nice for long sql statements, html lines, etc...

yay!

Re:My soon-to-be rejected submission

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me guess, you're a stinky little capitalist. Your days are numbered...

Re:My soon-to-be rejected submission

[Anonymous Coward]

Heh. Capitalism makes the world go round, twit. Try living in a society without it and see how it goes.

i Life Logo

[NickMc2000]

Isn't it weird that the logo for Aplle's suite of applications is a puzzle? Is not a puzzle also used for Microsoft Office?

Safari mounts ftp sites on desktop!

[ruiner13]

I've been playing with Safari, and I just found out that when you connect to an FTP site through it, it uses the built-in finder FTP support and mounts the site on the Desktop. pretty slick if you ask me! If this has been posted already, I'm sorry, I didn't feel like reading through all 800+ previous posts.

DVI is bad for notebooks

[g4dget]

I have a notebook for travel. The fewer cables I carry the better. VGA is a must for presentations, and if all you have is a DVI connector, you have to carry the cable. I think Apple made a mistake leaving out the VGA connector on the higher-end G4s.

OpenOffice Final Beta out

[wfolta]

They announced it today evidently, even lower under the radar than the Apple X11 release: http://porting.openoffice.org/mac/index.html I'm downloading it now at a pitifully slow 12KB.sec.

X11 "native" support just like Carbon

[g4dget]

Yeah, like OpenOffice under X11 has any chance of remotely looking like an OS X App

Do you complain about Classic apps on OS X as well? Do you think Carbon apps are "foreign" on OS X or have trouble looking like native apps just because they use a different API?

It took some work for Apple to make Carbon apps look like OS X, but they got it done. If anything, it's easier for X11, many X11 toolkits and apps already have all the necessary theming and rebinding in place--they can look as much like Aqua apps as Apple's lawyers allow it.

Re:X11 "native" support just like Carbon

[Julian Morrison]

Look isn't the point.

Look and feel and expected behavior and interoperability are the point.

Ever tried to use an app that emulates your OS's native widgets with skins? It doesn't look right, it ignores global color and font settings, it ignores UI guidelines, it behaves differently when you drag the scrollbars, it uses its own oddball keystroke commands, you can't drag-n-drop to or from it... bleh.

Re:X11 "native" support just like Carbon

[g4dget]

Ever tried to use an app that emulates your OS's native widgets with skins? It doesn't look right, it ignores global color and font settings, it ignores UI guidelines, it behaves differently when you drag the scrollbars, it uses its own oddball keystroke commands, you can't drag-n-drop to or from it... bleh.

You mean like Carbon on OS X? Sure, Carbon apps are annoying, but I can live with them, as can apparently most other people.

Seriously, this isn't about "skinning". X11 widget sets are often highly reconfigurable: color and font settings will follow system guidelines and keystrokes are reconfigurable. Drag-and-drop integration is something Apple could handle in the X11 server (and many Carbon and Cocoa apps, unfortunately, have serious limitations on dnd anyway).

X11 support for OS X could be as good as Carbon support, if not better. Apple just has to want it and let it happen. And that's what they seem to be realizing, common prejudices like yours notwithstanding.

just a teest

[Microsift]

I was hoping that safari would have an integrated spelll checker, thees iz nott ze kase

safari/kde/x11/other poop

[Anonymous Coward]

aside from the fact that the project leader at kde seems happy to have apple on board due to safari

http://lists.kde.org/?l=kfm-devel&m=104197104218 78 6&w=2

there's the small fact that x11 wasn't exactly totally ignored as it presently has nearly 7,000 downloads from versiontracker.com alone

happy geeking :)

Re:safari/kde/x11/other poop

[Anonymous Coward]

oops

forgot to mention. if you didn't watch the keynote tues. uncle stevo had a full load to deliver with two new apps, three upgraded apps, two major pieces of hardware, and a few other odds and ends

if you wish to check macminute.com or versiontracker.com you'll see he missed mention of quite a few other things, barely explaining all the details of the rather popular iphoto and imovie for example

linux geeks are still in the *minority* as apple owners. wanna get more press? become the majority. :)

Performing artists need lighted keys

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple has a huge part of the market in the performing arts.

Having backlight and key illumination auto-vary with ambient light is a DREAM for anybody who works with laptops onstage or at the mixing desk.

Absolutely brilliant. Why did it take Apple to implement this?

-spheric*

Re:Performing artists need lighted keys

[DirkDaring]

I'd *love* to have this feature on my Gateway Solo laptop. It's an excellent idea and will go over well and sure to be copied!

many bugs...

[jericho4.0]

Here is a big list o'things wrong with Safari. I've been using it all day and love it.

this is why khtml was chosen over gecko

[Anonymous Coward]

As far as the general amazement goes that Apple chose khtml over gecko. The answer is very simple. They are contributing code back. After they messed around with the code the browser runs significantly faster. Now, what browser can Apple better live with being faster - khtml which runs on *nix or gecko which also runs on Windows? They are trying to go head to head with Microsoft. In some way aiding their platform and if only through speeding up a 3rd party browser is not in their interest.

(Disclaimer: I might be talking out of my ass if someone actually ported khtml to windows already)

Maybe it's time to buy a 12" PB soon. If they just wouldn't be so horribly pricy here at 2200 EUR for the basemodel.

Safari and FTP servers

[The Infamous Grimace]

Anyone else notice that when one enters an FTP site with Safari that it doesn't load the directory in the browser window but rather mounts the server on the desktop, making it browsable via the Finder? I went to download the GIMP with Safari, and noticed this behaviour.

Very interesting.

(tig)

which is the retard?

[ChristTrekker]

This leads one to ask, "Which is the retard? The browser, or the 'compatibility' scripts?"

Re: 12" Powerbook?

[Saint Fnordius]

The biggest differences are things like the true dual monitor mode (not just mirroring), higher resolutions available on the external monitor, more extesibility and the G4 processor.

I personally like it. This is the perfect mobile replacement for my home desktop computer; an iBook is (in my eyes) basically made for laptop use only.

Virtual PC 6?

[Eustace Tilley]

A friend would like to switch to Mac, but not if it means losing WordPerfect (and WordPerfect for Mac is no longer available). Do you think Virtual PC 6 can run Windows 98 adequately on any Apple laptops?

Re:Virtual PC 6?

[Anonymous Coward]

You really don't want to run VPC6 without installing Win2k or XP. It's optimized for 32 bit arch.

Cheers,
KC

Re:Virtual PC 6?

[Eustace Tilley]

Can you get adequate performance out of Virtual PC and Win XP (home) on any of the current Apple notebooks? How much RAM?

Re:Virtual PC 6?

[catscan2000]

I'm using 1GB of RAM on my system, but my NT Virtual PC is configured for only 128MB of RAM. Visual Studio 5 runs quite well, especially after upgrading from Virtual PC 5 to 6. My system is a G4 400, which is a bit old, so it should run very well on pretty much any of the current PowerBook G4s. A cool thing that you can do with Virtual PC 6 is make WordPerfect a Dock icon, but it's only doable with Windows 2000, XP, 98, or ME. I'd also suggest 2000 or XP over 98/ME. The XP Home version of Virtual PC 6 costs the same as 98, so it's not more expensive :-).

For a PowerBook, I'd probably suggest 512MB of RAM or more of total system memory, but everything should work very well with 512 :-). It should technically work with 256MB, but then it won't run as well if you have a bunch of OS X apps open at the same time versus 512MB.

Hope this helps :-)

lol

[Ender Ryan]

You complete ass! Apple is using stuff developed by the GNU/Linux community, and you come back saying THAT! You arrogant, pompous ass!

WTF is your problem with recognizing that GNU/Linux has made software that has benefitted Apple?

And with regards to GCC, sure, Apple may have developed the Objective C parts of the compiler, but unix tools(everything on OSX that isn't part of the GUI) aren't written in Objective C.

Simply un-fucking-believable...

The fact is, Apple chose to use tools developed by the GNU/Linux community, because they were they best tools to suit what they needed. Props to Apple, they make great stuff, I like them, and I'm glad they have been willing to work with other people, contributing code, etc. You, OTOH, are a complete ass.

Re:lol

[Twirlip of the Mists]

WTF is your problem with recognizing that GNU/Linux has made software that has benefitted Apple?

Nothing. My problem is when somebody says that OS X depends on Linux or GNU software. That isn't remotely true.

And with regards to GCC, sure, Apple may have developed the Objective C parts of the compiler, but unix tools(everything on OSX that isn't part of the GUI) aren't written in Objective C.

Heh. That's right. They were written by the FreeBSD developers. Not the "GNU/Linux community," whatever the heck that means.

Apple chose to use tools developed by the GNU/Linux community, because they were they best tools to suit what they needed.

Yes. But the GNU tools in use at Apple aren't core to their work. OS X doesn't "depend on" GNU or Linux in any sense at all. OS X "depends on" Mach and FreeBSD. Apple's relationship to the "GNU/Linux community" is a competitive one, not a cooperative one. Apple is (rightly!) trying to lure users away from Linux and get them to use OS X for their desktop and laptop computers.

Oh, and by the way, how's that anger management course working out for you? Doesn't seem to be helping much, from what I can see.

Re:lol

[Ender Ryan]

Nothing. My problem is when somebody says that OS X depends on Linux or GNU software. That isn't remotely true.

I never said in depended on Linux, just GNU/free software tools, and in it's current for it indeed does. You stupidly make the point that if it wasn't for the free software that Apple is using, they could develop/use something else. Duh! But they DIDN'T! But sure, I see/saw your point, as stupid as it was, but then you went on to make ridiculous disparaging remarks towards GNU/Linux developers.

Heh. That's right. They were written by the FreeBSD developers. Not the "GNU/Linux community," whatever the heck that means.

There you go again with the starwmen! That is totally orthogonal to my point. GCC was developed by/for the GNU project, which was what I was talking about.

Apple's relationship to the "GNU/Linux community" is a competitive one, not a cooperative one.

Another ridiculous statement by a ridiculous person. Sure, they are definately in competition, but they are ALSO cooperating with the free software community, and doing so very openly. You obviously haven't looked at the correspondence between Apple developers and free software developers, you just blather on in your total ignorance.

Oh, and by the way, how's that anger management course working out for you? Doesn't seem to be helping much, from what I can see.

Go fuck yourself. At least I don't have to hold un-fucking-believable contradictions as truth to be content with the platform I use. You, OTOH, can't even admit that the platform that you use has benefitted a lot from the free software community you so despise.

Please don't bother replying, I'm not going to argue with you while you continue to beat ridiculous strawmen.

Re:lol

[Twirlip of the Mists]

You stupidly make the point that if it wasn't for the free software that Apple is using, they could develop/use something else. Duh!

Doesn't that mean, then, that Apple doesn't depend on those things? Hmm?

GCC was developed by/for the GNU project, which was what I was talking about.

Look, please make up your mind, okay? Are we talking about the compiler, or the user space utilities? If we're talking about the compiler, then Apple's developers wrote most of it, and they could easily use a different compiler if it came down to that. No dependency there. If we're talking about the user space, it all came from FreeBSD, not from the GNU collection. No dependency there, either. Clear now?

Sure, they are definately in competition, but they are ALSO cooperating with the free software community, and doing so very openly.

The "GNU/Linux community" does not equal the "free software community." The free software community includes entities like the FreeBSD project and the Mach project, the two projects that have contributed most to OS X. Apple does not cooperate with the "GNU/Linux community." They compete.

You, OTOH, can't even admit that the platform that you use has benefitted a lot from the free software community you so despise.

Again, please make up your mind. Are we talking about the "free software community," or the "GNU/Linux community?" They're not the same thing. Apple works with the free software community. Apple does not work with the "GNU/Linux community." Got it?

Re:death of chimera...

[kiddailey]

God I hope not. While Safari looks like it could eventually be a nice browser, it still has QUITE a long way to go before its feature set is as robust as Chimera.

For example, tabbed browsing. After finally switching from IE and trying tabbed browesing, I don't know how I lived without it.

The ability to import other bookmark files would be nice.

And why did they not incorporate the ability to configure the toolbar in the same manner as with every other OS X app?

The bookmark handler is nice, but it replaces my current window and I think I'd actually like it to be a separate app just like the Address Book.

Faster than IE on a G3 too AFAIK

[oscarmv]

In my experience (500 MHz white iBook, the one with the lame 66 MHz system bus) Safari runs circles around IE and Mozilla (slightly faster than Chimera and Omniweb, although Chimera is better in some complex javascript sites).

Re:IE & Powerpoint replacements - is Microsoft

[pi radians]

Also, if IE was your default internet browser after installing Safari it is automatically changed to Safari. This doesn't happen if any other app is you default browser.

Very interesting.

Re:My soon-to-be rejected submission

[Anonymous Coward]

Well... I live in a country that DOES base it's economy on capitalism and life for most people here sucks: America. The only people who seem to be happy with capitalism are those making $100,000/year and up. I have no hopes of ever reaching that since you have to have money to make money. (Or know who to blow) A lot of my friends and family are unemployed. I am actually doing the best out of all of them with my paltry $48,000/year. But that's barely enough for two people to live on. (Yes, I'm married too) The flaw in capitalism (that requires some adjustment) is that there is not guarantee that you have a baseline existence. If capitalism allowed for people to have at least a guarantee of $30,000/year no matter what they did, capitalism would be much friendlier to the average person.

Why tabbed browsing....

[kiddailey]

Two words: WINDOW OVERLOAD

If you surf like me (opening a new window for almost every link you click on), then you'll begin to appreciate one window instead of 5 or 10 opened at one time. Especially handy when you're clicking off of Google search results or juggling a bunch of apps all with windows open together.

One of the greatest uses I've had for it is while working on site development. In one tab, I've got my web-based database admin app, the functioning page scripts in another tab and the site prototype in a third. Clicking between tabs to compare the functioning site to the prototype or double-check the db structure/content is much easier than trying to shuffle around through 3 windows IMO.

Get a tabbed browser and try it out for a week (some are better than others, I use Chimera/Mac OS X). I just recently got hooked on it and don't know how I lived without.

Re:My soon-to-be rejected submission

[Anonymous Coward]

You, sir, are a fucking idiot. Last year I was making low six figures. Then my company failed. For the past nine months I've been unemployed, and my family has been living off of my wife's resident salary. As a household, we're pulling in $32,000 a year, and raising a dog and a little girl on it. (We're not touching any of our savings; that's for the future.) Are we rich? No. Do we have an assload of discretionary income to blow on things? No. Are we surviving just fine, and even putting aside some money for the future? Yes. (Oh, and before you ask, I'm not telling, but we live in one of the five biggest cities in the US. Take your pick.)

I have no hopes of ever reaching that since you have to have money to make money.

That's bullshit. For four years I made more than $100,000 a year, not because I had money, but because I had a good idea. My company was successful, for a while. Then we lost our best VP and the market turned, and I was unable to keep it going. If I'd been a better, older, more experienced businessman, I think we'd still be in business. You don't have to have money to make money. You do, on the other hand, have to get off your lazy fucking ass.

I am actually doing the best out of all of them with my paltry $48,000/year.

Paltry? You cock sucker. $48,000 is good money. You just don't know how to live on it.

The flaw in capitalism (that requires some adjustment) is that there is not guarantee that you have a baseline existence.

Idiot. That's not a flaw! That's the fundamental tenet of capitalism! If you want something (say, money) you have to get out there and work for it. If you don't work for it, you don't get it. This is called profit motive. See, most people look at the profit motive and go, "ooh, opportunity!" You, on the other hand, are a lazy little shit who goes, "oh, I don't wanna work that hard. Can't somebody else do it and just give me some money every week?"

I'll bet you were raised in relative affluence, weren't you? I'll bet you came from a household of middle-class status or better, right? Your family always had enough to eat, and they never starved. Right?

Let me tell you something. One of my best friends is a lawyer. He makes a ton of money every year for a 25-year-old, more than six figures. His parents moved to the US from Vietnam in 1975, dragging a little girl (his sister) a little boy (his brother) and a baby (him) along with them. They spoke no English. In Vietnam, his mom had been an accountant and his dad a lawyer. In the US, they were nothing. His dad had to take a job working as a janitor just to pay the rent on their one-bedroom apartment. (Five people in one bedroom!) But they saved money, and his dad took English lessons at night, and eventually he was able to go to community college night school to get an associate's degree in accounting. He took a job with the city in 1979 or so, and made about $28,000 a year. That was enough to move his family into a small house and keep food on the table while the kids went to public school. The kids all graduated at the tops of their classes. Two of them went on to medical school (one's a surgeon, the other is a researcher now) and one (my friend) went to law school. They all had to pay their own way through school, with scholarships or loans or both.

These people didn't have to "have money to make money." They didn't "know who to blow." They just worked for it. They earned it. You, on the other hand, are probably the son or daughter or middle-class white people who provided everything for you without your having to earn any of it. So now you're too fucking lazy to get out there and work for a living. You want everything handed to you. $30,000 a year! Christ! That's a fortune to most people.

God, I hate you so much right now. Lazy little prick.

Re: Mozilla was too bloated for them.

[josephgrossberg]

One answer:

The number one goal for developing Safari was to create the fastest web
browser on Mac OS X. When we were evaluating technologies over a year
ago, KHTML and KJS stood out. Not only were they the basis of an
excellent modern and standards compliant web browser, they were also
less than 140,000 lines of code. The size of your code and ease of
development within that code made it a better choice for us than other
open source projects. Your clean design was also a plus. And the
small size of your code is a significant reason for our winning startup
performance as you can see reflected in the data at
http://www.apple.com/safari/ .

Quoted from here.

Re:My soon-to-be rejected submission

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn! That's telling me! Shows you how much you know. No... I was not raised by middle-class affluent white people. My mom came over here from South America with no help from her family. My dad basically grew up in the trailer park. They were pulling in a wopping total of $15,000/year in the mid 70s. Only because my Mom was smart with money and took the money that my dad made and saved it very carefully was I even able to go to college. And I didn't go to "the best" college. I went to school with all the other farmboys in Ohio. So how does this capitalist society pay my mom and dad back? My dad lost his job back in 1989 for Christmas. Since then, he's been in and out of a dozen jobs, gone to college to get an associates that hasn't helped and is basically too old to ever get a good job. My mom was forced into retirement (and screwed out of her pension) and is living off Social Security. I do what I can to help them out, but the fact that I prefer to live debt free and pay for everything with cash (excepting the house and car which are both shitty BTW) makes life VERY hard. No way in hell do I want to get caught in the horrible trap of credit. I've been down that road before and it was a nightmare. I look around at my friends. A lot of them have nice, big houses that I will never see the likes of ($200,000 and up, mine is $85,000 and the payments are still too high for me.), make 6 figure salaries (that I will never see even though I am a good system manager in the IT profession), have multiple vehicles (I have a shitty used car $12,000 and my wife has another one $16,000 and again the payments are TOO much). So, it's not like I live the "Life of Riley". It's an apparently better life than my parents, but it's not a great improvement. And it took me until age 33 to get where I am. Most of my friends had this stuff when they were in their early 20s.

Sorry, but your assumptions have no legs. My parents now have to live on $21,000/year together. At least I was able to help them pay off their house. My point is that "profit motive" is evil as it only promotes greed. Some of us have no interest in managing money, making investments or the other things you need to do to become "rich". In fact, I aruge that some of us shouldn't have to deal with that stuff. It's just like people who don't work on their cars or take care of their computers. Managing money and investing is gruntwork and if I tried to do it, I'd be broke. I'm better off just sticking it in the bank and dealing with the paltry amount of interest I make.

Slashdot peeve number two billion one

[Lovejoy]

orders of magnitude better than their previous effort.

Allow me to be a bit pedantic, well, very pedantic, and quote Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I doan think it means what you think it means."

If something is "orders of magnitude" better it has to be at least 100 times better.

Yes, XP is MUCH better than 9x, and ME, but only slightly better than 2000, IMO. Not even approaching one order of magnitude better.

</high horse>

Re:Slashdot peeve number two billion one

[Bert64]

And i was comparing 2k/xp collectively as being better than 9x..
And to be pedantic, "orders of magnitude" is a phrase rather than a word.

Re:TiVo via Rendezvous? Yuck, improve Tivo 1st!

[mbbac]

Hell, I'd buy a TiVo for this feature alone. I don't even have cable or satelite TV. I want music sharing in my living room over AirPort Extreme!

MDI does not Apply (TM)

[kiddailey]

Feel free to debate and call me stupid with my overly simplified metaphors, but I do not think tabbed browser interface = MDI.

In my opinion, the web is not a collection of multiple documents. It's one gargantuan document consisting of millions of pages, with each site being a different chapter or section. No matter how many windows I open, I am still in the same document and still have access to the whole document.

Re:My soon-to-be rejected submission

[Anonymous Coward]

Troll: Hey... come here. I want to tell you something. Look over in that direction. Over there in the corner. See it? Smile! You're on Candid Troll Action!

Victim: Oh my GAWD!!!! I don't believe it! I've been fooled again!

Troll: That's OK, you're going to get a full year's supply of Turtle Wax for your trouble. :)

Re:My soon-to-be rejected submission

[Anonymous Coward]

God, what a loser. Your mom and dad had the exact same opportunities that my friend's mom and dad had. The fact that they made it and your parents didn't tells me nothing more than that your parents just weren't working for it. Who knows? Maybe they're stupid. Or lazy. My friend's parents came here with nothing, in the middle of a fucking war without even speaking the language and they made it just fine. What's your excuse, loser?

My point is that "profit motive" is evil as it only promotes greed.

The profit motive doesn't promote greed. Greed is a natural human drive. It's present in everybody. Some people have only a little greed: the desire to have food to eat and a roof over their heads and to provide for their kids. Some people have lots of greed: private jets and yachts and stuff. But everybody is greedy. Everybody wants. The profit motive turns "want" into "do" by letting people get what they desire by working for it.

Some of us have no interest in managing money, making investments or the other things you need to do to become "rich".

In other words, "I don't wanna play, so the game must be broken. Waa, waa." Go spend $20 on a "personal finance for dummies" book. Invest in a Roth IRA. Put some money in the market. Or quit complaining, you fucking loser.

But, of course, there's an even better way to become rich than by investing: convince people to give you money! Sell them something. Start a business. Take a better-paying job. If you can't get a better-paying job, go out there and accumulate the skills and experience you need to get one. Quit asking the world to give you stuff. You're not going to get a hand-out.

It depends

[rixstep]

Overall I'd say it was boring? No. But it depends who you are. If you are an "INC" and not a home computing Mac freak, then it's worse than boring. There are so many admins out there who would love to bring Macs into their office LANs, but they can't, because Apple don't have what they need. What they need is NOT one click photo enhancement. Even the browser - which I find fantastic - is not going to woo them. Apple are the only competitors to the Beast, and they still don't get it.

Re: 12" Powerbook?

[RoyalTS]

see here

Re:My soon-to-be rejected submission

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude. I thought that's what GNU software was all about. Free stuff man. It's cool. Lighten up. Have a toke. Pass the software.

Re:My soon-to-be rejected submission

[Anonymous Coward]

A better way to put it is that some of us just aren't interested, but that doesn't mean we aren't entitled to a decent way of life. THAT is what made this country great during FDR's days: a guarantee that the government would take care of you. By your logic, someone who can't use a computer shouldn't be able to. That's just wrong. Sounds to me like your a greedy AND selfish bastard.

Re:TiVo via Rendezvous? Yuck, improve Tivo 1st!

[swb]

Tivo will never allow for tranferring recordings off of the Tivo. Even the Tivo hackers who have done deep disassembly of Tivo hardware don't tread there, as they know its off limits.

Transfer of programs to Tivo may be some kind of an option, but of EXTREMELY limited value until Tivo releases some new PVR with a real GigE interface. You're not moving any video anywhere with the USB-Ethernet interface that Tivo will support.

Web-based programming of Tivo may be something that is actually coming (I believe the series 1 Tivos with hacked-in ethernet can run an add-on that does something like this), but I doubt it will be anything that requires or uses any third-party computers or software, just a small built-in web interface in the Tivo itself.

Re:My soon-to-be rejected submission

[Anonymous Coward]

A better way to put it is that some of us just aren't interested, but that doesn't mean we aren't entitled to a decent way of life.

Actually, it does mean that you aren't entitled to a decent way of life. You aren't entitled to anything. If you want something in this life, you have to get off your ass and work for it.

THAT is what made this country great during FDR's days: a guarantee that the government would take care of you.

Hee hee. Read your history books. FDR's welfare state was a disaster.

By your logic, someone who can't use a computer shouldn't be able to.

What? Someone who can't... what? What the fuck?

Sounds to me like your a greedy AND selfish bastard.

YES! I am a GREEDY and SELFISH BASTARD! And SO ARE YOU! If you think you aren't, you're either dumb, delusional, or a liar. Every human being is inherently greedy and selfish. It's a natural property of human existence. Trying to deny that nature is just making trouble for yourself and others.

Re:My soon-to-be rejected submission

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, I am surprised. We agree on something. I know that being greedy and selfish is built within human nature. However, I see it as a flaw that needs to be stamped out. Of course stamping it out starts with the individual. I practice what I preach.

sweet OS X

[Anonymous Coward]

For christs sake can we get over the OS X infatuation on this board? Using the modem is the only thing my PowerBook can do under OS X that it can't under Debian. There are in fact some serious flaws with it (e.g. Disk Utility bugs) that are a real turn-off if you are accustomed to working under the hood. Can we get a grip here? Is there no room for people that respect Apple without succumbing to blind fanaticism?

Re:sweet OS X

[Twirlip of the Mists]

Using the modem is the only thing my PowerBook can do under OS X that it can't under Debian.

Wow! Debian can run Photoshop, iTunes, and Word, both play and burn DVD's (video and data), rip CD's to AAC, watch QuickTime movies, interface with your iPod, sync to both your Bluetooth phone and your Palm, run Project Builder and Inferface Builder, run Sherlock, and play Medal of Honor? Amazing. Truly, this is a wonderful time to be alive.

Either that, or you could just be fucking wrong. Whichever.

Re:My soon-to-be rejected submission

[Anonymous Coward]

However, I see it as a flaw that needs to be stamped out.

Stamping out works for fires and for bugs. Not so much for flaws in human nature.

Hierarchical windows

[Onan]

If you really want to change something as fundamental as windowing, you don't want to do it on a per-application level. That gives you both inconsistency, and the ability only to do this hierarchical organization trick only with windows from one app.

The more general solution to this is multiple desktops. You can then put all you browser windows relating to a project on one desktop, along with all your editor sessions in which you're taking notes, and all the mail messages which have useful reference material, and your IM conversations with your colleagues, etc, etc. You can then switch between any number of such categorized constellations of windows, and easily move windows from one to another (or to all).

Allow me to suggest CodeTek's VirtualDesktop, which is as good a multiple desktop implementation as any I've ever used with X11, and then some.

Re:Hierarchical windows

[King Babar]

If you really want to change something as fundamental as windowing, you don't want to do it on a per-application level. That gives you both inconsistency, and the ability only to do this hierarchical organization trick only with windows from one app.

Well, I would have no strong objection to a tabbed word processor, either, myself.

But I think the stronger argument here is that this is not the 90s anymore, and while the Microsoft "the whole OS is a web browser!" notion is clunky and weird, while Mozilla's "the browser is the kitchen sink!" is bloated, the notion that your web browser is just another app seems really dubious to me.

The more general solution to this is multiple desktops. You can then put all you browser windows relating to a project on one desktop, along with all your editor sessions in which you're taking notes, and all the mail messages which have useful reference material, and your IM conversations with your colleagues, etc, etc.

Been there. Seen it. Liked it a bit, too, but along the way I realized that what I really wanted in life was as few visible windows as necessary. Man, you should have seen my standard gnome set-up at one point... And I really did want Mac OS X to be like that. What cured me was cmd-tab an an invisible dock. That way, I maximized screen real-estate, but, whenever I wanted, could go immediately to a maximized open app and cycle through its windows (or not).

I also have an issue with the way most multiple desktops seem to think I should organize my work. So, in a nice workshop, you might have different workstations for your router and your band saw and what not and a separate area for painting. You might have multiple projects going, but it's usually easy enough to see what goes where. This is an analogy for the notion of multiple applications each with multiple documents. Now, you could imagine a virtual workshop of some kind where each project has its own bandsaw and router and what not, and that's the multiple desktops, with one desk per project. Interestingly (to me), I don't find that idea as attractive (with a couple of telling exceptions I won't go into here). What I usually do on my Linux boxes is set up a simple 3x3 screens desktop, plonk down 3 xterms, and emacs, an acrobat, 3 screens of (tabbed) web browser and leave one screen for Matlab or whatever other "special" app I need around. This is a nice set-up, and I thought I'd miss it in OSX, but I ended up not missing it because I could still go "anwhere" with just key strokes, and didn't ever run into the problem where I would "run out" of space if I needed (say) a space to run xfig. Now, a nice virtualdesktop could probably handle that, too, but OS X does this with a lot more style and grace than I would have expected.

I've been around for longer than I'd care to admit, but I have to say that I'm impressed with how much nicer my computing environment is these days than it used to be the 80s, on Mac, unix box, or PC.

Re:Hierarchical windows

[Rysc]

You don't like tabs at the app level? How about at the window manager level?

Safari...

[ellem]

Well it is pretty and all but where's the tabbed browsing?

Re:Obligatory Safari comments (posting from it now

[Anonymous Coward]

The Safari page (www.apple.com/safari) has a little graphic encouraging you to "send us feedback" via the bug button. I interpreted that to mean *any* feedback, and that's what I've sent. :-)

HTH
WM

Re:Not bad - My only complaint

[MoneyT]

Don't feel so bad, I just recently purchased a powerbook from them (what was the TOL model before), I'm almost half tempted to send it back, pay the restock fee and buy the new one.

Adding local CA certificates to Safari

[nsayer]

I figured out how to add self-signed and alternate CA root certs to Safari. See how here.

Re: 12" Powerbook?

[Saint Fnordius]

Ah, I knew about the firmware solution, but I'm not *that* big of a geek to risk this. I think a lot of Apple customers are also loathe to void their warranties. No, I like the fact that this was designed for all sorts of professional usage. It can scale up AND down.

I envision using this with my old 21" monitor and external keyboard/mouse combo in the home office, and doing e-mail/web surfing in front of the TV with the rest of the family. Why like that? Well, my wife like to haul out that hoary "you don't like to spend time with me" just because I prefer to do my private correspondence in the evening. If it was pen and paper, I could do it in the living room. Instead, I'm currently forced to retire to the HO, and leave conversation range. And that's why I'm drooling so badly over this little floor wax/dessert topping thingy.

Still, thanks for the tip. I just wanted to clarify my position.

Re: Mozilla was too bloated for them.

[josephgrossberg]

How is the parent a Troll?!? Mod it back up!

I attributed it to the source, Apple themselves.

Should be +1 Informative, since I bothered to do some research instead of just speculating.

Re:IE & Powerpoint replacements - is Microsoft

[Anitra]

Funny, this didn't happen to me. I just installed Safari, but IE's still my default browser.... although I may change that soon. :)

Laptop Keyboard Still ADB; Still Unusable for Unix

[Anonymous Coward]

As far as I can tell, all of Apple's built-in laptop keyboards are still ADB. They are still effectively unusable for unix users.

I am a long-time Unix user. That means I need to have the Ctrl key to the left of the A key. This is a genuine need, not merely a want; it is based upon ergonomics. The Ctrl key is heavily used in unix, and it must be easily accessable. It cannot be off in the lower left corner of the keyboard where it is difficult to get at, and where it distorts the position of your left hand such that you can't easily type other keys while holding the Ctrl key down.

Apple desktop keyboards are now all USB. They are all OK. The CapsLock key can be re-mapped into a Ctrl key.

Unfortunately, even in this modern age, all Apple laptops have built-in ADB keyboards. The ADB keyboard is broken-by-design. It is, in general, not possible to remap the CapsLock key into a Ctrl key.

There are some exceptions, but they are horrible kludges. They are horrible kludges because the original design of the ADB keyboard was a horrible kludge. The correct solution would be for Apple to re-design their laptop motherboards to use built-in USB keyboards. This hasn't happened yet. If you run Linux, use Debian's solution. For Mac OS X users, uControl works. There are no solutions (that I know of) for either NetBSD or OpenBSD. Please note once again that the "solutions" above are in fact kludges, because of the original bad design of the ADB keyboard.

Apple provides a technical note on how to remap the keyboard, but provides no solution to the hardware problems caused by the design of the ADB keyboard. This tech note helps foreign language users, but does nothing for the CapsLock/Ctrl problem.

Apple is (currently) ignoring Unix users! This is not merely speculation on my part. In an on-going email exchange I am having with an Apple employee (whom I won't name) in their marketing department, the Apple marketing person directly stated to me that Apple was catering to their historic Mac customers, and is purposely ignoring the Unix market. He also claimed that Apple would soon start paying more attention to the Unix market. I won't hold my breath. Apple has been ignoring Unix users for more than 12 years. I expect that trend to continue. (Also note that my Apple contact indicated that Macs would never ship with a 3-button mouse, even though Apple intended to port almost all X-window software and deliver it either on a CD/DVD or installed directly on each Mac's hard drive. How Unix friendly is a 1-button mouse with X programs that often require 3 buttons?)

Apple has now lost two opportunities to sell me hardware. I really wanted an Apple laptop for their superior battery life, and for the PowerPC with Altivec CPU. (The Altivec is vastly superior to the x86 line for DSP.) Because I can't live with the broken-by-design built-in ADB keyboard in all Apple laptops, Sony and IBM sold me laptops instead. If Apple fixes this problem, they will sell me a PowerBook next year; if they don't, I'll still be running OpenBSD on x86 hardware, and wishing I could use a Mac.