Ok, I admit.. It's a pet peeve of mine. Not that people opt to go to college, but that I've frequently had to deal with interviewing or training those coming out of college with very little knowledge and an ego the size of Texas. Too many people tend to mistake "I went to college" with "I'm a brilliant and capable human being", and "I opted not to go to college" with "I'm a lazy lout with a problem dealing with authority". Neither absolute is true.
I'm all for college, I think it's a great opportunity and people can learn and grow a lot from it, but I do not think it's the only opportunity, nor do I think that people should assume that because they've got The Piece of Paper(tm) that the world should be handed to them on a silver platter. In ANY field, there's still much to learn that no school will ever teach you, and in my personal experience learning those things on your own embeds them much deeper than cramming for finals ever could.
Responded to a job posting [yes, a college degree was "required".] Went in, interviewed... During the process of the interview a few issues that the company was having came up, and I knew the solutions off-hand, was easy to get along with, and was very up-front.
If you have every skill set listed, plus others that the employer might find valuable most companies are not going to turn you down simply because you don't fit the college requirement. "Ready, eager and willing" does carry some weight.
[note this does not apply for teaching or medical positions.;) ]
I don't want to teach computers to elementary schoolkids. I do not want to be a college professor. I do not want to be one of 200 systems administrators working for a large company whose HR department does the hiring.
It does not matter if doors I do not want to walk through are closed to me. If I find that a door I desperately want to see myself on the other side of is closed, I find a way to open it--if that means going back to school. Great. Until I find that door I'm not going to waste valuable learning time with the rote memorisation that is required to open the door to college. I'll use my mental capacity to absorb what I need to know about my field.
This is what I mean by "A degree is an option not a necessity." Tailor your knowledge based on your goals and the doors you wish to open, and fewer will be slammed in your face.
"Graphics art is just an extension of fine art, it's all coming from the same basic knowledge."
It doesn't mean that people graduating school TODAY can take the full range fine art courses and come out excellent graphics artists. They'd have to complete "A" and move on to "B" which would then be learning all the programs and applications that they need to use. It's not practical. They'd be in school for 10 years. The same applies to highschool students wanting to go to school for computer-related fields. While knowledge of technology-as-it-was 20 years ago will help the sysadmin who was around then, it will only prolong the learning process of the younger sysadmin. Should they ignore it completely? No. But learning should be a hybrid process between the old-and-proven and the latest flavor of business-ware to hit the streets.
Most schools do not teach you the latest and greatest, or the full range of things that you'll need to know in the real world. They teach you the history, they teach you the math, they teach you the operating system or two of choice, and whatever languages or programs you ask them to teach you... and then after you get out it's still up to you to take that knowledge and build it into a full-fledged toolkit.
I'm not saying that college is a bad idea. I never said that. I'm just saying that it's not the solution, it's not the last game. Technology, whether or not its roots have remained the same since 1894, is evolving. That's what college doesn't seem to teach you--that you need to evolve, too.
Yes, some self-taught geeks are arrogant, this should come across immediately in an interview. Others are unstructured free-thinkers who will bog you down with sporadic "This technology is cool, we should upgrade" paths. Both should be avoided. Then are the pragmatic down-to-earth geeks who realize that sometimes spending four years in school learning an industry that changes on the hour is not necessarily the best thing to do.
On the flip side you've also got the geeks from Harvard or MIT who think that the world should bow to them because of their degree.
Arrogance is on both sides, not just the side of the self-taught. Skills are on both sides, not just on the side of the college educated.
Not necessarily. There's a whole lot of psychological stuff involved. Think about it. If the industry generally accepts that the job is worth $30K and someone is willing to do it for $10k less.... Let me use the "Laptop in an electronics store in Times Square" analogy. You see a laptop valued at $2k on sale at one of those places for $800. First thought "This is not going to work."
Be willing to accept the low-end of the industry standard for the job that you want to do, but don't drop the price so much that people start to ask "What is going on here?"
It depends on a number of factors. Have the two potential employees both been interviewed? If they have, then it's all up in the air. College won't make or break the deal, no matter what the job description says. An enthusiastic go-getter who's on the edge of technology and shows concern about hot-button issues such as security and uptime is more likely to get the job than is a less enthusiastic person, no matter how many years either one has spent in a structured educational environment.
Furthermore, depending on the college it can actually hurt your chances. Certain schools (I'm not going to name names) have a reputation of shuffling people out half-educated.
College is not a guarantee of anything. Experience and expertise is.
Undercutting is a bad idea. Not only will it bring down the general worth of the job, but it will also decrease your percieved value in your employer's eyes and make it harder down the road to negotiate a raise.
If you're concerned about "getting your foot in the door" more than you are about pay, and if your expertise is limited, try an internship. This will get you in the door and you'll be in a position to push for a full-time position without having demeaned yourself in the process. Undercutters are viewed as sharks in any industry, and are generally treated as such. Interns who later become employees are generally remembered for having learned fast, become an expert, and pursued a position with passion. Internships are also a great form of "free learning".
I didn't go to college. [why do I get the feeling that saying that is going to get me a rash of critique on my spelling and grammar? *sigh]
Systems administration and most other computer-dependent fields are interesting in that they do not usually require a formal education, and if you're good enough the employers are usually willing to ignore a lack of certification as well. I have not had any issues with finding employment.
College is definitely an option, but many find it to be much more productive to spend the time assimilating as much knowledge as possible and getting their feet wet on their own. Certification is often a good way to get a "quick injection of stuff-that-people-think-you-should-know". What type of certification you pursue depends on the type of system you want to administrate, and the environment you plan on trying to find work in. There's MCSE certification which seems to be fairly popular.. CCNA, RHCE, A+, and a variety of others.
Figure out what OS you're interested in working with, what tools.. Research the average salaries, environments, requirements and make your decision based on that.
Personally- I think the best resource you can find for "A list of stuff to know" is monster.com--find a job you like the sound of, look at the requirements, and then LEARN!
What would be an interesting form of biometric ID is a fast/accurate DNA test from a mouth-swab/nose-swab or hair sampling (to name a few possibilities) and have a guard choose one at random so the impersonater would have to effectively spoof several methods because they wouldn't know which one was being used) Of course we'd then see incidents of social engineering, and certain guards would come up with certain patterns that would be readily apparent to the observer... And then there's the cost, as this would probably be quite expensive. Not to mention slow.
I think that for every method of security developed there's a way around it. Humans are like that- always seeking ways to overcome obstacles/challenges.
I wonder what the results would be of a test on the handle of a clorox bleach bottle. Afterall, it's where everyone reaches when there's some noxious thing needing to be disinfected.
Or are those results that Clorox wouldn't publish? =]
I don't think "Napster as a company is irrelevant" is intended to say "It never was important".
I think that in the present it's true that Napster is irrelevant. It has been more or less defunct for how long now? Its new business model never took off, and its liklihood of ever regaining its footing was very low.
Napster is a historical figure, and should be remembered as such. It revolutionized things across a broader base and called attention to itself in a way that allows me to talk to non-geeks about topics like p2p and have them say "Oh yeah- Napster" with a glimmer of understanding.
The poster didn't say "Napster is irrelevant", simply that right now Napster already is a non-entity. The rats have left the sinking ship and found new homes with Gnutella and other "not-a-server" networks. It does not matter to the internet whether Napster lives or dies. It's time is already past.
It's like a great political leader who has died--the concepts he introduced live on, but functionally he is no longer relevant as a person.
Linux offers a stable, powerful, secure, and heavily developed alternative OS.
Linux offers an alternative to Windows, which is currently being bombarded by a.) the legal system b.) crackers, and c.) viruses.
Linux offers a way out of the.net hell where companies are forced into a bizzare dance of upgrade or rebuy.
Yes, Linux is in a position to do some pretty damaging things to the other OSes out there if things continue on the path they're currently on. (Microsoft going out of its way to be arrogant and kick itself in the butt by writing memos like this, and opensource developers pushing the envelope and coming out with increasingly feature-filled, stable, and secure software.)
I doubt that Linux developers have the time to write "Let's get Microsoft!", though. They seem too busy developing the OS to participate in the "We have an inferior product, let's squash the competition" insanity that goes on behind the doors of some other developers. =]
Tell it to my server logs. Half the hits are either from systems with a virus that tries the exploits that code red/nimda did, or from a really foolish script-kiddie who wants in and that thinks I'm running Windows and can't be bothered to find out otherwise.
In MA it's a piece of paper with your picture on it, in NYC it's first a piece of paper w/o picture, then it's an actual license-picture and all- only with "learners permit" on it. Both states seem to accept it as a type of ID. Can't speak for other states, though. Obviously Texas, among other states, is different. It also varies country to country.
I guess I should have clarified which states I have actual experience in. =]
It's actually much easier to get a learner's permit than it is to get a non-driver's ID. The process for getting a non-driver's ID was more time-consuming for some reason with multiple forms to fill out and more identification required. I think the 'system' is paranoid about anyone who doesn't want to drive. Getting the learners permit required (at least in my experience) to fork over less personal information even though I had to take the test. (the written test is easy and most people will finish/pass in under 20 minutes.)
Why burn it? Why not just give it back, or ask if you can modify it? Lawyers EXPECT contracts to be modified. Take the contract, make changes in red ink, return contract, they accept it or reject it.
Sometimes it takes several games of 'hot potato' before everyone has a contract they can live with.
Usually the employer will respect you all the more. It proves you have attention to detail and can pick out subtleties. Let them know that your work is similarly exacting.
Or... They use what seems to be a common technique.
Step 1: Forge "from" so that bouncebacks won't be an issue. Step 2: Use software to auto-generate half a million email addresses using a dictionary and random "common" numbers such as dates, "69", "1", etc. Step 3: send email. Sit back and enjoy not having to deal with bouncebacks or angry replies.
I used to have an AOL account with the string 'Sara' in it. Every month or so I'd recieve an email with 100 names in the 'to' field and out of curiousity I'd try pulling up a profile on a bunch of them, most would return the results that the user did not exist.
I'd be curious to see who would recieve more spam-- BOTH accounts being equally inactive and on notorious 'spam' email hosts such as yahoo, AOL, MSN, etc. ba56ugnu0i99845@domain.com or saragirl69@domain.com All bets are on the latter.
Interesting. After the laptops finish bouncing not only do they go away, but so does the banner at the top of the screen. In order to bring the banner back and see what it was for I had to close the window and then re-click the link from slashdot. (Initially I was too distracted by the bouncing computers.)
Good advertisement.;) Must be horrid for the click-thru's though.
If I unplug the ethernet cable from the back of my computer I'm automatically 50% less productive.
Part of the geek's brain resides on the internet. How many times a day do you find yourself up on the 'net doing research related to some project you're working on?
I agree that people who do not use the 'net for research should be cut off. But then, I think that in general.
Scenario A: Employee needs break desperately, has net access and goes to/. to participate in brain-stimulating discussion regarding a variety of issues from copyright law to hardware to GPL issues. Returns to work refreshed and ready for a challenge.
Scenario B: Employee needs break desperately, does not have net access, wanders outside to smoke and oggle female co-workers. Returns to work with a hardon and a brain that is more fuzzed than before.
Proposed rule: Limit all NON-GEEK employees from accessing the internet. They mess with the bandwidth that could be better spend downloading the latest Slackware distro.
Slashdot Mirror
If we donate money can we maybe send off a few of the slashdot trolls on the space shuttle? I think Mars would suit them well.
Ok, I admit.. It's a pet peeve of mine. Not that people opt to go to college, but that I've frequently had to deal with interviewing or training those coming out of college with very little knowledge and an ego the size of Texas. Too many people tend to mistake "I went to college" with "I'm a brilliant and capable human being", and "I opted not to go to college" with "I'm a lazy lout with a problem dealing with authority". Neither absolute is true.
I'm all for college, I think it's a great opportunity and people can learn and grow a lot from it, but I do not think it's the only opportunity, nor do I think that people should assume that because they've got The Piece of Paper(tm) that the world should be handed to them on a silver platter. In ANY field, there's still much to learn that no school will ever teach you, and in my personal experience learning those things on your own embeds them much deeper than cramming for finals ever could.
-Sara
Responded to a job posting [yes, a college degree was "required".] Went in, interviewed... During the process of the interview a few issues that the company was having came up, and I knew the solutions off-hand, was easy to get along with, and was very up-front.
;) ]
If you have every skill set listed, plus others that the employer might find valuable most companies are not going to turn you down simply because you don't fit the college requirement. "Ready, eager and willing" does carry some weight.
[note this does not apply for teaching or medical positions.
-Sara
I don't want to teach computers to elementary schoolkids. I do not want to be a college professor. I do not want to be one of 200 systems administrators working for a large company whose HR department does the hiring.
It does not matter if doors I do not want to walk through are closed to me. If I find that a door I desperately want to see myself on the other side of is closed, I find a way to open it--if that means going back to school. Great. Until I find that door I'm not going to waste valuable learning time with the rote memorisation that is required to open the door to college. I'll use my mental capacity to absorb what I need to know about my field.
This is what I mean by "A degree is an option not a necessity." Tailor your knowledge based on your goals and the doors you wish to open, and fewer will be slammed in your face.
-Sara
Those who went to college will say "Go to college." Those who did not will say "Don't go." And each will swear that it's the best route to take.
There are people with degrees and no jobs, people without degrees with jobs, and vice-versa.
Oh, and by the way--A lot of those non-English speakers are rather bright. "doesn't speak English" != "stupid", just as "college degree" != job.
-Sara
"Graphics art is just an extension of fine art, it's all coming from the same basic knowledge."
It doesn't mean that people graduating school TODAY can take the full range fine art courses and come out excellent graphics artists. They'd have to complete "A" and move on to "B" which would then be learning all the programs and applications that they need to use. It's not practical. They'd be in school for 10 years. The same applies to highschool students wanting to go to school for computer-related fields. While knowledge of technology-as-it-was 20 years ago will help the sysadmin who was around then, it will only prolong the learning process of the younger sysadmin. Should they ignore it completely? No. But learning should be a hybrid process between the old-and-proven and the latest flavor of business-ware to hit the streets.
Most schools do not teach you the latest and greatest, or the full range of things that you'll need to know in the real world. They teach you the history, they teach you the math, they teach you the operating system or two of choice, and whatever languages or programs you ask them to teach you... and then after you get out it's still up to you to take that knowledge and build it into a full-fledged toolkit.
I'm not saying that college is a bad idea. I never said that. I'm just saying that it's not the solution, it's not the last game. Technology, whether or not its roots have remained the same since 1894, is evolving. That's what college doesn't seem to teach you--that you need to evolve, too.
-Sara
Well, the primary purpose of the last patch seemed to be to *add* bugs. My guess is that this patch is to take them away?
-Sara
Yes, some self-taught geeks are arrogant, this should come across immediately in an interview. Others are unstructured free-thinkers who will bog you down with sporadic "This technology is cool, we should upgrade" paths. Both should be avoided. Then are the pragmatic down-to-earth geeks who realize that sometimes spending four years in school learning an industry that changes on the hour is not necessarily the best thing to do.
On the flip side you've also got the geeks from Harvard or MIT who think that the world should bow to them because of their degree.
Arrogance is on both sides, not just the side of the self-taught. Skills are on both sides, not just on the side of the college educated.
-Sara
Not necessarily. There's a whole lot of psychological stuff involved. Think about it. If the industry generally accepts that the job is worth $30K and someone is willing to do it for $10k less.... Let me use the "Laptop in an electronics store in Times Square" analogy. You see a laptop valued at $2k on sale at one of those places for $800. First thought "This is not going to work."
Be willing to accept the low-end of the industry standard for the job that you want to do, but don't drop the price so much that people start to ask "What is going on here?"
-Sara
It depends on a number of factors. Have the two potential employees both been interviewed? If they have, then it's all up in the air. College won't make or break the deal, no matter what the job description says. An enthusiastic go-getter who's on the edge of technology and shows concern about hot-button issues such as security and uptime is more likely to get the job than is a less enthusiastic person, no matter how many years either one has spent in a structured educational environment.
Furthermore, depending on the college it can actually hurt your chances. Certain schools (I'm not going to name names) have a reputation of shuffling people out half-educated.
College is not a guarantee of anything. Experience and expertise is.
-Sara
Undercutting is a bad idea. Not only will it bring down the general worth of the job, but it will also decrease your percieved value in your employer's eyes and make it harder down the road to negotiate a raise.
If you're concerned about "getting your foot in the door" more than you are about pay, and if your expertise is limited, try an internship. This will get you in the door and you'll be in a position to push for a full-time position without having demeaned yourself in the process. Undercutters are viewed as sharks in any industry, and are generally treated as such. Interns who later become employees are generally remembered for having learned fast, become an expert, and pursued a position with passion. Internships are also a great form of "free learning".
-Sara
I didn't go to college. [why do I get the feeling that saying that is going to get me a rash of critique on my spelling and grammar? *sigh]
Systems administration and most other computer-dependent fields are interesting in that they do not usually require a formal education, and if you're good enough the employers are usually willing to ignore a lack of certification as well. I have not had any issues with finding employment.
College is definitely an option, but many find it to be much more productive to spend the time assimilating as much knowledge as possible and getting their feet wet on their own. Certification is often a good way to get a "quick injection of stuff-that-people-think-you-should-know". What type of certification you pursue depends on the type of system you want to administrate, and the environment you plan on trying to find work in. There's MCSE certification which seems to be fairly popular.. CCNA, RHCE, A+, and a variety of others.
Figure out what OS you're interested in working with, what tools.. Research the average salaries, environments, requirements and make your decision based on that.
Personally- I think the best resource you can find for "A list of stuff to know" is monster.com--find a job you like the sound of, look at the requirements, and then LEARN!
-Sara
What would be an interesting form of biometric ID is a fast/accurate DNA test from a mouth-swab/nose-swab or hair sampling (to name a few possibilities) and have a guard choose one at random so the impersonater would have to effectively spoof several methods because they wouldn't know which one was being used) Of course we'd then see incidents of social engineering, and certain guards would come up with certain patterns that would be readily apparent to the observer... And then there's the cost, as this would probably be quite expensive. Not to mention slow.
I think that for every method of security developed there's a way around it. Humans are like that- always seeking ways to overcome obstacles/challenges.
-Sara
I wonder what the results would be of a test on the handle of a clorox bleach bottle. Afterall, it's where everyone reaches when there's some noxious thing needing to be disinfected.
Or are those results that Clorox wouldn't publish? =]
-Sara
I don't think "Napster as a company is irrelevant" is intended to say "It never was important".
I think that in the present it's true that Napster is irrelevant. It has been more or less defunct for how long now? Its new business model never took off, and its liklihood of ever regaining its footing was very low.
Napster is a historical figure, and should be remembered as such. It revolutionized things across a broader base and called attention to itself in a way that allows me to talk to non-geeks about topics like p2p and have them say "Oh yeah- Napster" with a glimmer of understanding.
The poster didn't say "Napster is irrelevant", simply that right now Napster already is a non-entity. The rats have left the sinking ship and found new homes with Gnutella and other "not-a-server" networks. It does not matter to the internet whether Napster lives or dies. It's time is already past.
It's like a great political leader who has died--the concepts he introduced live on, but functionally he is no longer relevant as a person.
-Sara
Let's see...
.net hell where companies are forced into a bizzare dance of upgrade or rebuy.
Linux offers a stable, powerful, secure, and heavily developed alternative OS.
Linux offers an alternative to Windows, which is currently being bombarded by a.) the legal system b.) crackers, and c.) viruses.
Linux offers a way out of the
Yes, Linux is in a position to do some pretty damaging things to the other OSes out there if things continue on the path they're currently on. (Microsoft going out of its way to be arrogant and kick itself in the butt by writing memos like this, and opensource developers pushing the envelope and coming out with increasingly feature-filled, stable, and secure software.)
I doubt that Linux developers have the time to write "Let's get Microsoft!", though. They seem too busy developing the OS to participate in the "We have an inferior product, let's squash the competition" insanity that goes on behind the doors of some other developers. =]
-Sara
Tell it to my server logs. Half the hits are either from systems with a virus that tries the exploits that code red/nimda did, or from a really foolish script-kiddie who wants in and that thinks I'm running Windows and can't be bothered to find out otherwise.
-Sara
Please please please let this be a stray April fools joke? Oh God, I can't deal with it if it's not. ;)
-Sara
In MA it's a piece of paper with your picture on it, in NYC it's first a piece of paper w/o picture, then it's an actual license-picture and all- only with "learners permit" on it. Both states seem to accept it as a type of ID. Can't speak for other states, though. Obviously Texas, among other states, is different. It also varies country to country.
I guess I should have clarified which states I have actual experience in. =]
-Sara
It's actually much easier to get a learner's permit than it is to get a non-driver's ID. The process for getting a non-driver's ID was more time-consuming for some reason with multiple forms to fill out and more identification required. I think the 'system' is paranoid about anyone who doesn't want to drive. Getting the learners permit required (at least in my experience) to fork over less personal information even though I had to take the test. (the written test is easy and most people will finish/pass in under 20 minutes.)
-Sara
Why burn it? Why not just give it back, or ask if you can modify it? Lawyers EXPECT contracts to be modified. Take the contract, make changes in red ink, return contract, they accept it or reject it.
Sometimes it takes several games of 'hot potato' before everyone has a contract they can live with.
Usually the employer will respect you all the more. It proves you have attention to detail and can pick out subtleties. Let them know that your work is similarly exacting.
-Sara
Or... They use what seems to be a common technique.
Step 1: Forge "from" so that bouncebacks won't be an issue. Step 2: Use software to auto-generate half a million email addresses using a dictionary and random "common" numbers such as dates, "69", "1", etc. Step 3: send email. Sit back and enjoy not having to deal with bouncebacks or angry replies.
I used to have an AOL account with the string 'Sara' in it. Every month or so I'd recieve an email with 100 names in the 'to' field and out of curiousity I'd try pulling up a profile on a bunch of them, most would return the results that the user did not exist.
I'd be curious to see who would recieve more spam-- BOTH accounts being equally inactive and on notorious 'spam' email hosts such as yahoo, AOL, MSN, etc. ba56ugnu0i99845@domain.com or saragirl69@domain.com All bets are on the latter.
-Sara
Interesting. After the laptops finish bouncing not only do they go away, but so does the banner at the top of the screen. In order to bring the banner back and see what it was for I had to close the window and then re-click the link from slashdot. (Initially I was too distracted by the bouncing computers.)
;) Must be horrid for the click-thru's though.
Good advertisement.
-Sara
If I unplug the ethernet cable from the back of my computer I'm automatically 50% less productive.
Part of the geek's brain resides on the internet. How many times a day do you find yourself up on the 'net doing research related to some project you're working on?
I agree that people who do not use the 'net for research should be cut off. But then, I think that in general.
-Sara
What is more productive?
/. to participate in brain-stimulating discussion regarding a variety of issues from copyright law to hardware to GPL issues. Returns to work refreshed and ready for a challenge.
Scenario A: Employee needs break desperately, has net access and goes to
Scenario B: Employee needs break desperately, does not have net access, wanders outside to smoke and oggle female co-workers. Returns to work with a hardon and a brain that is more fuzzed than before.
Proposed rule: Limit all NON-GEEK employees from accessing the internet. They mess with the bandwidth that could be better spend downloading the latest Slackware distro.
-Sara