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System Administrators - College or Career?
Chicks_Hate_Me asks: "I'm a Senior in High School right now and I'm graduating soon (hopefully!) and I was wondering what the hell I should do? My teachers are all telling me I should go to college, but they don't know much about computers so they automatically assume that I wan't to be a programmer or an engineer. I want to be neither, in fact, I want to become a System Administrator. Is college really the best option? Or should I concentrate on getting certification, experience, and taking a few junior college classes on the side? I've already gotten a few job consultancy offers in the area. What has the experience been for any of you out in the tech industry? For you that went to college, did it truly help? And for you that didn't go to college, has it been harder for you to find a job? Also, if you believe that I should go to college, what should I major in? But if you think I shouldn't, what certifications would hold valuable in the future, and what kind of job positions should I take now?" The never ending question. College is a valuable experience for most, but it's also expensive and time consuming. Might that time be better spent in the job market now rather than later (current conditions notwithstanding)?
College, and certs will get you in the door. So will a resume. Learn your skills. Since you are so young, you could probably undercut those who are more qualified. Know your stuff, and try for Junior-admin positions. Get a cert or two, so they will actually call you back, but concentrate on knowing your craft. If you are willing to move, do nation-wide searches for a job. Some areas have too many techs, but other areas are starving for them.
If you have the opportunity to go to college, take it. At this point in your life, you do not *really* know what you want to do. College will expose you to many possible careers. Not only that, but you might acquire additional skills that will provide you with a backup plan when you burn out on sysadmin'ing...
* Move to a cheap college state like Arizona (in-state is $1000/semester, you can qualify for in-state tuition after living there a year)
* Work and play for a year while you get instate.
* Enjoy college. Those are good years and you'll work the rest of your natural born life (save the low-probability cash-out option; see "unemployed", "options", "mortgage")
* College degrees are often important. Not always, and it doesn't always matter what they are. Sysadmining in college is a pretty good gig.
I suggest you start early by ripping the wings off flies while telling them, "sorry, new security policy"
--
Bwahahahaaaa
Martin, sys admin bastard
Theres no doubt that just having a four year degree on your resume increases your chances to get a good job. Experience will only get you so far in the job market. The Higher the salary range, the more and more they are going to expect a degree. Plus it Shows u have enuff dedication to get threw college to get one.
Most system administrators do not know enough to be truly useful. Not coincidentally, many have not had formal training in Computer "Science" or Engineering. Go to college. Learn about how things really work, not the regurgitated pablum that is spread by corporate sponsored certifications.
Since it looks like you aren't planning on going to a university this fall, it wouldn't hurt to get a certification or two in the upcoming year. But definitely go to university. To go immediately into the work world out of high school seems like a complete waste of youth to me. There are many more entertaining ways to waste those precious years between 18 and 24 than slaving long hours as a sysadmin.
A well-crafted lie appears unquestionable - Dama Mahaleo
I am a senior manager in a midsize company. I have hired both with and without degrees. The college degree adds quite a bit to ability of the employee to solve problems and think outside the box.
I would recomend college.
College level CS degrees are not a good investment if you have aptitude.
I say take a more targeted approach for now and go to college when, and only when, you become bored, burnt out, disenchanted, frustrated and really sick and tired of all those god damned "college boys" who make more than you but REALLY just don't know DICK!
"A microprocessor... is a terrible thing to waste." --
GeneralEmergency
For what it's worth, I'm a Systems Administrator while I'm in college.
when come back bring pie
Step 1. Travel. Go to europe (or the US, depending on where you're not). See what life in the rest of the world is like. You can actually travel for pretty cheap, and when I was last on the road ('95), it was pretty easy to work under the table in much of europe. It won't be the high-life, but it's worth getting out there.
Step 2. Go to college. College is about learning what you don't know you don't know. Not about learning what you know you don't know.
I recommend working after the first year or 2 in college - even if you[r parents] can afford not to.
Step 3. Get a job - a real job. Not the one you worked in college. Even if that was a real job. Get away and get more experience elsewhere.
The important thing is to see a lot of different stuff.
IMHO...
With hard work and diligence I feel that a person in the systems administration field is just as capable of doing the job as a person with a degree, however I have found it to be much harder to get in the door for a job interview without that degree, however if you can get in the door you will most likely be hired anyways if you can impress the employer. However have you considered going into the military particularly the AirForce? They offer killer benefits, and they'll give you a great reference, not to mention extra knowledge in the field that you wish to seek employment and a career in.
If you want to be completely underappreciated and backstabbed beyond belief, by all means, become a system administrator. The job itself is ok - it's the users who mess everything up.
You need to go to college for the training in the underlying concepts. This is invaluable over the years as things (technologies) change and you'll need to change with them.
;) but that problem should be sufficiently offset by the opportunity to develop personal relationships (with professional colleagues, bartenders, cheerleaders, and if you are lucky - a few good advisors who can mentor you).
:) hehehe.
On the flip side, many things you learn in college are crap
In short, go to college and get the sheepskin, at least a 4-year. You never know what you'll do from there as college can change your perspective on things.
Hope that helps, and good luck !
Dave
p.s. You may find that being a sysadmin is not as glamorous as you think
p.p.s. Check out Lotus Notes and don't be fooled into thinking everything runs on Java !
"Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the freeness of speech."--Benjamin Franklin
I'm in college now. You are confused a little as I was. In Computer Science (at most universities), you have what's called a 'Software track' or 'Systems track'. In the Software track, programming and software development is more emphasized. In the Systems track, system administration is more emphasized. You should definately go to college, becuase as a sysadmin you will have opportunities to advance. Without a college education, you won't have as good of a chance to advance. College will also develope you socially and in other subjects such as political science, etc. College in today's competitive society is a must, especially with foreign competition becoming more feirce.
... Without a degree. Lots of times on interviews, people ask "Do you have a degree?" To some people it matters, to others it doesn't. Generally schools like to see that you have a degree, for various reasons. Once I asked "If I did, would it even make a difference?" The person who was interviewing me said 'Probably not'.
... Sometimes i wonder if it would help, as right now I'm out of a job, and starting to get desperate .. ;). But I have one thing a person who spent 4 years in college won't have over me, and thats 5 years experience as a System Administrator. Who would you rather have in charge of your systems, someone who has been doing this for a while now, or someone who's only read about it?
....
...
My parents also always push to get a degree
Anyway, congrats on wanting to be an SA, its a good career choice I think, as you get exposed to a lot, and it can lead to other things, programming, DBA, network guy etc etc
Over all though, college looks like its a lot of fun, if a lot of work. If your parents will pay for it, I say go for it! Maybe you'll get to go to a few good parties
Choose no life. Choose System Administration.
If you want more pay, college will make a difference. And if you want to run the IT organization in 10 yrs, you will have to have college whether you use the stuff or not is a different question.
I'd strongly suggest college, for two reasons.
Firstly, whether it's fair or not, a lot of places simply won't look at your resume for any technical position unless you have a post-secondary degree of some kind. If you have many years of experience (3 minimum), you may be able to get by on past work alone, but even then you'll be less favoured for raises and promotions because of the impression that you're less "skilled".
Secondly, going through the computer stream, the business stream, or both, in college, will give you extra perspective on where the demands of management and the coders are coming from, and how to balance their requests. You'll be able to do a better job (not all of the job is technical).
Thirdly, it gives you flexibility and mobility in your job. You're qualified for being more than just a sysadmin, so you can take other positions if there are no sysadmin jobs available or if your interests change over time. Choice is usually a good idea.
In summary, I think that college would be very valuable for you at your current career stage.
Now, I am just offering you my opinion and experience in this, but I am also a Senior and will be graduating in just three days. I have been working in a small office for the last 10 months as the Systems Administrator and I also plan to be attending college in the fall. ( http://www.sdsmt.edu ) My advice to you would be to do the same, considering the only reason that I have my current position is that I had, at the time of my hiring, plans to pursue a Computer Science Degree, well that and fairly good experience, for the position. On another note, my friend's father is the Head of Network Operations for a local isp and though he uses mainly Linux and Unices for his infrastructure, he has no say over hiring and has mainly those with a BS in CS or MIS and a MSCE or CNAA along with the degree and that is the primary reason they were hired. So I would say, to sum it up, that you should persue your degree and also try to work part time in a position that will give you Systems Administration experience.
Is a Sig really an expression of the person behind the post or just random nonsense?
Try and see the big picture. How do you know you want to be a Systems Administrator? And will you want to be one in five years?
Go and get your computer science degree. Plus you will never forget those four or five years. You'll make new friends.
Finally, if you can prolong your arrival into the real world, by all means do it!
These days, I can pretty much guarantee you that a degree of any kind will get your resume looked at much faster than those without degrees listed.
In the whole dot-bomb craze, a lot of people dropped out of high school and college, and went to work for obscene amounts of money. Now, many companies have realized that it take more than a working knowledge of whatever field is popular - it doesn't matter if you're the world's greatest genius in a particular field if you can't do the *other* parts of the job, like interacting with customers, making clear notes about what you've done for the runbook, and generally communicating with your co-workers.
I got my degree on the ten-year plan. It's not in a computer-related field, but having it means that more doors are open to me.
Specialization is for insects. - R.A.H.
Even given the arguments against going to college, I would still go for the experience. I've seen countless folks who've not gone to college (that I now work with!) who are paid well, but do not possess the "got to get this working no matter what" attitude that one gets while attending a formal college. Those co-workers are the 9-5'ers who call it quits at 5pm no matter what. My other college-educated co-workers are:
- more intelligent
- more hard working
- climbing the career ladder much faster
Now's the opportunity - jump in and learn all you can while you still can.
Do it for da shorties
I didn't go to college. [why do I get the feeling that saying that is going to get me a rash of critique on my spelling and grammar? *sigh]
Systems administration and most other computer-dependent fields are interesting in that they do not usually require a formal education, and if you're good enough the employers are usually willing to ignore a lack of certification as well. I have not had any issues with finding employment.
College is definitely an option, but many find it to be much more productive to spend the time assimilating as much knowledge as possible and getting their feet wet on their own. Certification is often a good way to get a "quick injection of stuff-that-people-think-you-should-know". What type of certification you pursue depends on the type of system you want to administrate, and the environment you plan on trying to find work in. There's MCSE certification which seems to be fairly popular.. CCNA, RHCE, A+, and a variety of others.
Figure out what OS you're interested in working with, what tools.. Research the average salaries, environments, requirements and make your decision based on that.
Personally- I think the best resource you can find for "A list of stuff to know" is monster.com--find a job you like the sound of, look at the requirements, and then LEARN!
-Sara
Most people also end up changing careers - having a degree (any degree!) will be a big help there too. Besides, where else are going going to learn to party right?
If you are a good sysadmin, college isn't for you. If you are newbie looking to go into sysadmin. Goto college. Expand your mind.
Otherwise join us. We are the overpaid, underage sysadmins who cause chaos to our users for fun.....
Decide early if you want a trade, or a career in the tech industry.
College will give you an opportunity to think, learn, and develop research skills. Certification won't teach you anything.
I don't want anyone working for me who just knows how to be a sys admin. I want thinkers, people who understand that systems exist to benefit the business. Just about anyone can learn what it takes to be a good admin; not everyone can learn to think.
Technology is not the end; certifications and trade school won't teach you that.
What an appropriate username for someone on /. ...
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
RHCE, Linux+, MCSE, etc? That way you can prove you have some degree of knowledge before you apply for a job. It can take months rather than years and some employers looks at certs over degrees (many comp sci majors know a lot about theory and concepts, but in practice can't write much more than basic "hello world" apps in Java and C++.) They may joke about "paper" MCSE's, but certs + experience is better than college and no experience. You'll be making just as much with 4 years experience as someone who studied for 4 years, but you'll have the practical knowledge.
"As flies to the wanton boys are we to the gods; they kill us for sport." - William Shakespeare, King Lear
The job market right now is EXTREMELY thin, so you're probably going to be better off if you can really separate yourself from other candidates. At the very least, make sure you have SEVERAL certifications (an MCSE alone isn't gonna land you a job these days). Go for combinations of varying certs that compliment each other. For example, try pairing a CCNA (Cisco) with a CNA (Novell) or RHCE (Red Hat). That should get you off to a good start.
You might also want to look into a two-year technical degree to further compliment the certifications. It doesn't really mean much, but it does give you an advantage over the guys who don't have it. And besides that, it will allow you to "sit out" of the job market until it picks up again (analysts are guessing that the next two years should be pretty good for IT guys).
Good luck, in any event.
But there is much more to sysadmin than that. The best sysadmins need just as much technical background as "programmers" -- they need to understand their system end-to-end, and know how to tune it, change it, and deploy it.
I know many programmers look down on sysadmins. But IMHO administration can be just as much a technical track as programming, and can benefit from as much background as you can get.
In addition, when I'm hiring sysadmins, what separates "junior" from "senior" folks is their ability to program. It might be in perl instead of java/c++/whatever, but I want admins to be able to automate their day-to-day tasks so they don't have to do things by hand all the time.
I've found that the largest barrier to entering management is the lack of a degree. The chance that you will be the *insert 3 letter business acronym here; C*O etc.* of a successful company (a la Gates, Ellison) without a degree are very, very slim.
;)).
If you don't mind being a SA forever, don't worry about a degree. If you want to be a CTO, VP Technology, etc. (making the big bucks, *really* being able to make a difference, etc.) then you'll need a BS/BA in the least (MBA doesn't hurt
Thanks,
--
Matt
The best system administators know how to program. At least they know their way around shell scripts, perl, and simple programming in C/Pascal/Delphi/whatever.
As a system administrator it is important to know more than "just" system administration. You should know a bit about network management. You should know a bit about system programming. You should know a bit about databases. You should know a bit about hardware. et cetera.
And remember, even if you do not currently want to be a programmer you may later decide to switch careers which may need more education. It is much, much easier getting education know than when you have bought a house, have kids, and so on.
I'm in the same boat, well not really. I'm actually graduating from college in a few weeks. I really want to be a Systems Administrator, though. The program I am completing was mainly geared towards churning out programmers, but there were a few courses in which I learned a lot about system administration.
I think that getting your college degree/diploma/whatever would be your best option. It looks good on a resume, it shows you can stick to something hard, and it's fun. A lot of places won't even look at you if you don't have some sort of post-secondary education. You can also get co-op work in the sys-admin field. Nothing beats having a team of people hunt down jobs for you. Then when you graduate you have an eduaction AND experience.
I also wanted a computer related college degree, but was met with the usual "c++ programmer or IT director?" major question. I wanted neither, instead I wanted to do networking, but their was nothing for me. MIS was serious overkill. I instead found a local community college that an associates degree in "Cisco Applied Internetworking", which I'm currently going for. I think with this, and my ccnp, I should be platinum in the job market.
As you for, they don't offer 4 year programs on resetting passwords, but it sure sounds nice!
Finally, math books without any of that base 6 crap in them.
I dropped out after a year and started doing tech support at a local ISP making shit, had a friend that helped me get a foot in the door doing NOC work at MediaOne, did really good, they sent me to some solaris training, and I ended up getting a admin job at a little start up. So basically in the time that collage would have taken (4 years) I managed to be making 60k/year doing what I wanted.
Of course, I ended up getting laid off. So I guess the best advice would be if you stay with a nice big company (like a cable company). STAY! They had better benifits (might not seem like a big deal now, but they will), better 401k matching, WAY more stability, and they actually sent me to real training classes where I could get real certs. And don't listen to start ups, they say what they want to get you in the door, then they screw you out of what they said.. This hasn't just happened to me, I'm sure there is plenty of examples.
Free Mac Mini
With the tech job market the way it is, now is a really good time to get in some college courses.
While a degree doesn't get you all the skills you need, having one will demonstrate to potential employers your trainability and willingness to learn.
- If we aren't supposed to eat animals, then why are they made out of meat? - Steven Wright
You could go to Chubbs or whatever technical institute would give you a Cert, but if you go to a good large University, you will have endless opportunities to work. At my Uni, I got a job as a network administrator for their large (20,000+) dorm network. I learned A LOT during that, and it looks pretty cool on a resume. From there, I plan to move on to the university's backbone operations group, which really would kick ass on a resume. Also, once you have your foot in the door at a university, it's trivial to get a job there untill you find a real-world one, the pay is usually decent, and job security at state universties is second to none...Why not put off the real world for four years, and spend that time learning to do fun stuff like paint or watch movies, and then drink beer and smoke reefer in the evenings.
Go to school as much as you can. You will have the rest of your life to work. Not necessarilly college (which I think you should attend), but any formalized learning past high school.
I strongly believe that continuing education provides you with a better framework to deal with real-world problems.
In general you may find it harder to find open positions, or advance your career. Sad state of the world is that people are judgemental, and college is becoming a standard.
College also affords you the chance to live on your own but still have a strong support network if you get into trouble socially or financially - a safe place to screw up.
I went the 'career first' route myself - and in the end, I now have to take the college I didn't when I first started in the IT/IS market. Personally, I regret it, as all the time I spent taking certification classes actually added up to more expense and more time than if I would have just pursued a degree from the local university.
It's easier when your younger - not only in the academic part, but the actual GETTING INTO COLLEGE part - as for some reason, jobs don't seem to understand older individuals WANTING to get their degrees later.
College IS expensive, but that's why the Federal and State government provide Financial Aid - to allow you to make yourself a more productive member of society (translation, paying more in taxes in the long run) in exchange for giving you a subsidized loan at good rates. Most of the time, they will even let you make no payments on it UNTIL 6 months after you graduate, then they keep your payments low so that you don't drown right away getting settled into your career ($50 dollars is a common monthly payment).
Go to college first - the job you get afterward will make the time and money spent worth it.
I went for a year, got recruited out of High School and given a full ride to a University (which will remain nameless) for CS. I got there and wound up taking classes involving COBOL and FORTRAN and working on a new thing codenamed NT in my spare time with some other classmates (This was '93-'94). I wound up dropping out of college and going to work for my old HS District. Got put in charge of a telecom project to link the 3 schools and the district offices together on a network w/ Internet connectivity. Somehow pulled that off and then got hired by the NSP we used for the circuits. In the last 8 years I have very rarely ever encountered a situation where I could not explain my lack of a degree in a positive way. I now work for a Fortune 100 Firm as a Senior Systems Analyst embroiled in a national Win2K upgrade w/ ADS. So has a lack of college hurt me, no, in my case it helped. I am one of the few people my age (currently 27) that can say and prove over 8 years experience in the field. Knowledge is better and more useful than a piece of paper, and you will find most employers will agree.
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
Learn fundamentals: physics, chemistry, math. From there you can adapt to any situation. Industry wants people that can think, not skill sets. You'll match up with the worst of all businesses by matching skill sets rather than mutual vision.
College is a great experience. I'll have my 20th year reunion next year. I've kept in touch with more friends from my college days than from anywhere else. Its a once in a lifetime experience. You'll have plenty of working years afterward.
How to fund it? In engineering, most schools offer excellent intern opportunities. You can come out debt free after your 5 years. I know lots of students who have maintained their finaincial sanity through good coop programs. Make it a priority in your search.
Choose no life. Choose sysadminning. Choose no career. Choose no family. Choose a fucking big computer, choose hard disks the size of washing machines, old cars, CD ROM writers and electrical coffee makers. Choose no sleep, high caffeine and mental insurance. Choose fixed interest car loans. Choose a rented shoebox. Choose no friends. Choose black jeans and matching combat boots. Choose a swivel chair for your office in a range of fucking fabrics. Choose NNTP and wondering why the fuck you're logged on on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting in that chair looking at mind-numbing, spirit-crushing web sites, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last on some miserable newsgroup, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up lusers Gates spawned to replace the computer-literate.
Choose your future.
Choose sysadmining.
There are two ways (generally) that you can become a Sys Admin for a company. The first takes for granted that you're looking for a company that knows what a Sys Admin does and actually has a separate IT department. The second way involves a company that has only just incorporated IT into their day-to-day business and is looking for Someone To Help With Computers (aka a Sys Admin).
The first scenario largely involves bigger companies and would most likely require an extensive (and diploma'd) knowledge of IT administration. The second scenario involves (usually) smaller outfits that are simply looking for an Alpha Geek with good credentials and a letter of reference from somewhere, not necessarily a seasoned vet or a college-trained guru.
It really depends on what kind of environment you're looking to start in.
This wasn't just plain terrible, this was fancy terrible. This was terrible with raisins in it. - Dorothy Parker
I've been working for Raytheon for a bit over three years as a systems geek. They just hired a new systems geek to do the same thing I do in the same place on the same contract. They started him at $10k more because he has a degree, even though he has less experience.
Get your degree if you're going to enter the commercial sector in big business.
"Population 1,656"
Amazing how people don't learn from history, or in this case, now.
A few years ago, everyone was skipping college, picking up a "programming for dummies" book and making 50K a year riding scooters around the office.
Some of us went to college, worked hard, got degrees, and then went out and got the same jobs.
Then the economy went belly up and everyone without a degree is now trying to get the job they once had back. A lot of people with degrees are trying to get those jobs now too.
You might know your stuff, you might be super great, but most people will hire someone who cared enough about their career and what they do to go to college in the first place over those who did not.
There are a lot of people in these forums who would disagree I'm sure. But there is no denying that a college degree goes a long way in todays workplace. And since companies can't afford to make the same mistakes they made in the 90's, things will stay that way...
I've been doing systems administration for the last six years after dropping out of college. I've been seriously regretting it for the last two. Don't get me wrong I love my job, most days it's a lot of fun and I get to play with all kinds of stuff. However, I am quite certain this is NOT what I want to do for the rest of my life (ever seen a 30+ burned out tech, it ain't pretty). The hardest part is trying to make time to go back to school. Really, really difficult to do if you're on-call or required to on-site during business hours.
If you really want to system admin, find out about working in the computer labs (they always need people). That way you'll get a taste while working on your degree. Just don't let it interfere with your studying. Draw a line and stay focused, otherwise they'll suck the life out of you (there's always a problem that needs attention now!!)
Good luck and don't get tied to proprietary or legacy systems, there might be good money in it for the short term, but long term it's a waste of time.
Ummon
This is the true problem confounding all high school computer nerds. I wrestled with it, and hopefully you can learn from my mistakes.
I made the realization in my freshman year of college that there was NOTHING they could teach me relative to computers that I either didn't already know, or that would help me with my intended field of work: being a sysadmin. This caused me to fail out of college.
The problem is, later on I realized that I NEED that college degree in something, anything. You need it for a couple of reasons.
First, you might not want to be a sysadmin for the rest of your life. They have no certifications that I know of for being a biotech engineer. Having a degree in ANYTHING means you can buckle down and do the work required of a college degree.
Second, you might want to move up the corporate ladder. Sure, sysadmin is powerful, but you need to report to someone, your manager. Dilbert principle not withstanding, upper management is more apt to promote people with degrees over the person with just certifications. You have to think about what THEY value.
Third, the experience of college is something I believe everyone should go through. Some of the friends I made in my first attempt at college are still my friends.
In the end, it's your decision. But try to realize that it will impact the rest of your life. My older sister (40ish) has a husband, three children, and a million-dollar-per-year income from herself alone, and she is going back to college. She has her SEC license to sell securities, stocks, bonds, and insurance in three states, but because she doesn't have a degree, she can't be hired by the stock firm she wants to work for.
You think you want to be a sysadmin. That's because you're young and stupid. (Sorry, dude, but every high school senior is young and stupid.) You don't yet know how demoralizing it is to work as a sysadmin. The pay gets a lot less attractive as soon as you have a family. You get very little respect, very little appreciation, in order to do a good job as a sysadmin you have to give solemn orders to people above you in the org chart of your work place, which makes you a prime target at every round of layoffs. The hardware and software both such and drive you to exasperation.
The hours suck rocks through a garden hose. Trust me on this, there is nothing more demoralizing than rushing to work to fix an outage at 3 AM because your ISPs clients are getting mad at having to wait for their pron. The hours suck more when you're on call and you realize your wife is better looking and your kids far cuter than any of your cow orkers or clients, and that your wage rate cannot justify a single additional hour away from them.
So, forget about sysadminning, at least for now. Go to college. Shop around for areas of inquiry that might interest you, or might not interest you yet. Join the army. I'm not kidding. The army beats sysadminning hands down. Or try jobs that involve your hands or the open air. But for mercy's sake, don't sysadmin just yet.
and learn how to program.
:)
'Cos all the physics, biology, chemistry and engineering majors will become sysadmins once they find they can't get jobs.
Of the 7 electrical/mechanical engineers I knew in college, ALL of them have ended up as programmers and sysadmins.
If you can, go to college... you might want to change careers in 5, 10, or 20 years... if you don't go to college you'll limit your options heavily.
-- -- A truly great man never puts away the simplicity of a child
Look consider college if just for the social aspect. Let me put it this way I went straight out of High school to a low-end tech job and worked my way up. Sure, I'm farther now then if I went to college, but I'm 22 and haven't had a date in 5 years. I know no one my own age and rarely relate to those I do know. So basically I have to reinvent myself or stay alone the rest of my life. Not Fun. There are unforeseen consequences to breaking the mold.
Any college experience is helpful, no matter what the job. In the long term it helps with interacting with your peers, especially if they are professionals. A common background and all that. And it historically gets you more money for the same job (go HR.... you bastards!).
:>
But in the area of system administration, having a *fundamental* understanding of computer science will take you a long way--especially if in the future you decide system administration no longer does it for you. Personally, boolean algerbra, compiler design, structured programming, etc. Plus, the interaction with others in the same field is all good.
In my experience, college ehanced my skills, understanding for what those damned programmer types do, and has allowed me to quickly come up to speed on the skillz-du-jour to keep myself marketable.
You're young, so investigate them options!
- All good admins had good mentors. A good college or university is the place to find them.
- While at college, you can choose a less challenging curriculum and still do some admin work on the side.
- At the end of your college career, you'll already have 2 or 3 years of experience under your belt.
- Stick with Unix- don't waste time with NT or Win2K. Then windows admin market has two dubious issues: A. The market is saturated, making them a $28k/year commodity; and B. It's much harder to distinguish yourself in the industry in a saturated market.
- Beer, women, and community. Those reasons are enough to make me want to go back almost every day
:) .
I can seriously vouch for #'s 1, 2, and 5. By the time I left school, I had 2 years of sysadmin under my belt, and excellent skills because of a good mentor. I was even able to take my time and choose between a couple gigs > $70k.Good luck!
Don't sweat the petty things. But do pet the sweaty things.
This
I'm a sys admin with a BS in CS degree, and I work with a few sys admins who haven't gone to college or have dropped out. They're trying to go back to college now and pick up their degrees which, while may not be critical now, will eventually be necessary to any kind of advancement.
I'm glad I continued with my schooling. From my history and philosophy classes, believe it or not, I picked up more critical thinking skills than from the programming classes. School is good for you if you make good use of it.
Or you could spend it trying to live a beer commercial fantasy and wonder why you wasted 4 years and tens of thousands of dollars. Your choice.
If for only one reason - it opens doors.
Potential employers will give you more serious consideration if you have a degree. It doesn't really make a difference what you want to do, a degree in anything is better than no degree at all.
Also, keep in mind that you might go sour on being a Sys Admin and then all your certifications are worthless. A degree will not be.
If you want more reasons:
- your salary will be automagically higher with a degree.
- a good college will give you a well rounded background in the field you study. This will allow you to acquire new skills easily in that field. Most people fail to understand this point and don't understand why they are learning calculus or discrete math when all they want to do is program.
Go to college, study something that interests you and then go be a Sys Admin.
Almost as bad as not going to school is not working while you're going to school. Holding a job and getting a degree at the same time shows that you can manage your time and handle pressure.
* As is generally the case, my opinions do not reflect those of my employer.
At the time that I graduated from high school, I was planning on a career in medicine or medical research. It made perfect sense because I loved science in general and biology in particular, and I was pretty good at it. So, I spent the next several years getting an honours B.Sc. in molecular biology. In my third year, I started my own software company to help with school expenses. By the time I graduated, I'd decided that, fascinating as it was, biology just wasn't a career thing for me, and I've been in IT ever since.
From that story, you might conclude that the time and money I spent in school was a waste, but that's far from the truth. First, I picked up plenty of soft skills, like research and writing, that I use every day. Second, and more importantly, I discovered what I really wanted to do. And of course, the whole university experience is not something to miss.
So, my suggestion would be to go to school. Don't tie yourself to a career path at the age of 17 or 18. Get exposed to a few different things, have some fun, and give yourself some time to decide.
Please donate your spare CPU cycles to help fight cancer and other diseases
Go to college! I can't stress this enough!!!!
Take something that will get a mix of programming and business courses. You may not be interested in the business aspect, but what you learn will definately help you in communications with management and other business-type people.
For starters, it's a ton of fun, period. If I could redo my tech career and have a Computer degree (I had a broadcasting degree instead) - I'd have loved it.
Second, a Degree stays, certs have to be renewed
Third, Many HR depts. still are hung up on the whole "4 year degree" thing - not all, and it's not as important as work experience, but I've missed a couple opportunities because of no 4 year degree in the tech field.
Fourth, Completing college shows employers that you have stick to it principles and can focus on long term goals. I know I've gotten some jobs as a college graduate even though I wasn't in the field.
Go - all joking about the ultimate party and co-ed showers aside, it'll be good for your career. You can always do certs in college too if you feel so inclined.
----------
ah honey, we're all resplendent - Bill Mallonee
Where do you think most of us learned to do this in the first place? : )
Seriously now, I was an engineering major at Cal Poly and did the sysadmin thing on the side... I graduated in '99, and they were looking for more sysadmins than metallurgists, so there I went. Not to say that all of that time went to waste by any means.
The university environment is a great one to learn in, and get paid doing it if you're lucky. Such a wide array of environments that you'd never dream of on your linux box at home. Sun, IBM, HP, NeXT (well, not any more, obviously), Linux, all in one place. Great learning, and shameless resume padding.
--Ben
--Ben
If you're interested in college, and if you can work AND go to school, then you'll have the opportunity to have the best of both worlds. Many employers have some sort of college degree requirement for promotions beyond a certain level. While the propriety of such requirements can be argued forever, it doesn't change the fact that they exist. And it's not like college is a waste of time, either. You'll come out with additional experiences and knowledge that you wouldn't have been exposed to otherwise.
I did "grunt" work for 40-60 hrs/week while taking full class loads (including summers) in college. But I also kept up with computers as my longtime hobby. Because of this, I was able to get into the tech field and move forward with my career.
There are worse things than having a college degree behind you. But if you don't like the idea of going to school, then don't. You certainly don't need a degree to do sysadmin work. But be aware of the limitations that will likely be present if you choose not to obtain the degree. It's all about choice.
Have you considered other options besideds a CS degree? Some universities are now offering majors in IT. RIT (where I go currently) was the first but I know that Penn State does too. Penn State's program is modeled almost completely off of ours and it's a lot cheaper. I know that IT isn't completely System Admin but it's pretty close. You take a lot of classes like "Shell Scripting". I'm a CS major so I can't tell you everything about it, but there's a lot of people here who really like the program.
I was in your shoes about five years ago. I chose to take on (at the time) digital prepress as a career. That got morphed into being a sys admin after a while. But, the most frustrating thing I have ever been told when interviewing for jobs is that it appears that I'm not as professional or qualified due to my lack of a degree. I know it doesn't matter, the person interviewing knows that it doesn't matter, but the person at the top thinks that it's a Good Thing(tm).
The next headache that I dealt with was watching all of the people I went to high school with graduating college. I graduated from high school two years early, I could have been done with collge by the time I was 19. But, I chose not to go then and now I'm in my second semester.
College is a good choice, do it when you are young. Having not gotten 'addicted' to the money that comes from working full time, full time school is much easier to take. Trust me, you won't learn a damn thing about being a system administrator in your first two years but you will gain habits and interpersonal skills that you'd have to hard-fight to get out of school.
There are two paths for the sys admin right now that are worth looking at: Computer Science and Computer Information Systems. I personally think that the CIS programs are a joke at most schools and teach you nothing more than a simple business degree would if you took comp sci classes as your electives. I watched my roommate go through some of the classes and the closest he got to 'real' sys admin type work was in a Java class. A business degree and some computer knowledge would open many doors for you. But if you are like me, you'd like the comp sci program more (don't forget the math, it's important!).
My suggestion is to give school a try, cutting your teeth too soon means taking crappy jobs, enjoy your youth and don't work it away in a darkened NOC!
J
Hire me...
I think you need to follow your heart. Do what you want to do. However, let me talk about my experience.
I decided to drop out of college after getting a decent job as a system support tech. It eventually lead to a good network administration job. However, I the down turn of the market resulted in me being out of a job. The problem I ran into was that although I had a great deal of experience there were people that had experience AND degrees that ultimately became more desirable because of the degree. Thus I never found a job. I am now a bartender.
I am not trying to say you should go to college, but even though most people will tell you that college takes a long time and what you learn can be self taught MUCH faster - realize that the paper you get from them carries a lot of weight.
Oh yea, as a small end to my story - I am now back in school and headed into my 3rd semester trying to make up for lost time.
RonB
(Age 28)
It is human nature to take shortcuts in thinking.
And take some english courses. Good Lord! I don't know where to start. Don't you know you can't start a sentence with the word but?
Anywho... I'm studying electrical and computer engineering and I'm doing sys admin stuff while going throught college. Anyone can do this stuff... If you're computer literate, get a helpdesk job somewhere and work your way up.
The thing to keep in mind is that a college education is more than simply "vocational training". You'll get to broaden your education, have a life experience that will help you throughout your life. The great thing about going to college and obtaining a degree is that you have quite a bit of control over the classes you take. The power to choose what you wish to study (to a certain degree) can spark other interests. Those interests may not directly relate to the job you want, but they will enrich your life. You may wish to be a Sys Admin now, but what about 5 years from now? 10 years? For most people, once you start along the path of full-time employment, it is very difficult to take classes. The pull of your job and the typical need to work overtime will consume additional time. Not to mention that you'll want leisure time. Oh, and should you get married in the meantime, it will be even that more difficult to start taking classes. Going to college for 2-4 years now seems like a lot now... but I guarantee that 20 years from now, it won't. Another benefit to pursuing a college education is that it gets you and keeps you in "learning mode". The key to longevity in this business is to continue to learn... never stop learning...never stop seeking knowledge. By the time you graduate with a 4 year degree, you will have matured to the point where this seeking of knowledge will remain with you. Just my opinion.
There is more to college than simply learning a trade. College is a place to learn how to interact with a diverse collection of people, budget both time and money, meet deadlines, and take more responsibility than before. It's also a place to have fun and hang out with other people your age, experiment with things that you might not have a chance to experience otherwise, get in trouble, and meet girls. Although, considering your name is Chicks_Hate_Me, maybe you should scratch that last part. You may go to college and discover that you really are meant to do something other than system administration for the rest of your life. I learned more outside of classes in college than I did in them. Just my opinion.
As an IT manager/Senior Network-Unix SA who never completed college (or any certifcations for that matter), the best advice I can offer you is take the path you feel is best for you.
Whatever you choose, make sure you are going to LEARN something. Stay excited.
When I was in school (mind you, I was an English major), I didn't feel like I was learning at a quick enough pace. I dropped out.
I have earned a majority my my experience on the job (and the many, many years spent tweaking on my own) and find working to have been the best path for me.
Good luck.
This Sig doesn't like The Force, The Matrix or Middle Earth. It also gets laid.
There are very few people who can become outstanding system administrators and keep that career path growing without a degree. And it's not based on ability, it's really based on luck, a combination of how the economy goes and the right company needing to hire someone when you're available.
Consider 5 years down the road. Which do you think has a better top-end salary and job opportunities? Engineers can continue to evolve and accept more and more responsibility via bigger budgets, better technology, and more training. SA's generally have a certain number of machines they can fit into their headspace, and then they've topped out.
Consider 10 years down the road. What will the operating systems look like? I don't know, but I can guess that they'll still need to handle things like device access, paging and memory allocation, and process scheduling. Once I figure those bits out, I know how the OS works to a large extent, and I can start making guesses about how many users it can support, how much load it can support, and how much it's going ot cost when it's fully implemented.
In short, do you want to spend your life being a technician or an engineer? If you want to be a technician, the best training is on the job training. If you want to be an engineer, to get anything out of the on the job training you need, you've got to have foundation that you'll pick up in a good computer science curriculum.
However, there are a couple of questions I'd reccommend asking yourself.
- Are you sure that you'll continue to be satisfied with Systems Administration? If you've been doing it for a short time, it's certainly possible that your interest in it stems from the novelty and discovery involved in mastering the subject. But once you've mastered it, is the lack of challenge going to sustain your interest/enjoyment? Most companies don't want a sysadmin who's going to experiment in wierd ways w/ their servers to pique their own interest. They just want uptime and some level of security.
- Are you considering that there are other reasons besides career preparation for going to college? I know that in our material culture the idea of "bettering oneself" has largely fallen by the wayside...
If you're really passionate about Systems Administration and aren't concerned about the magic fading, then by all means, go for it.However, if you're just thinking along the lines of "hey, there's money to be made here and I think I have the chops to cash in without spending any money/time" then I'd say:
- Doing what you love is more important than making money;
- computers aren't going away soon -- if you take the time to explore different things, "better yourself," and discover your true passion and it turns out it's still Systems Administration, we'll still need you!
My most concrete piece of advice is WRT college should you choose to go that route: pick a cheap one (that is, pick the cheapest one that's good enough to meet your needs).I went to college for 4 years (didn't get me know dugree, thoough). I didn't learn that much in the classes that helps me in my day to day job as an administrator/programmer, but I learned a lot in the college _experience_. You get a lot of exposure to technology, and you need to learn the real meat of the work on your own. Plus you can get a sysadmin job in school, or even babysit a lab and nerd out there.
You have to be interested in it and spend your own time 'nerding out', but the college atmosphere is good for this. And the classes really do help. I wish to hell I remembered half that shit, especially the trig/calculus.
The best SAs are often former programmers/SWEs; the worst are ones who took a Vo-Tech class or just came up "thru the ranks" from a help desk somewhere.
My advise to you is to go to college, get a Comp Eng or CS bachelors, then move into industry. Although the classes are more aimed at programmer types, the experience is valuable (SAs do a lot of programming, just in ksh and perl instead of C and Java), and you will have lots of chances to play on the University's Unix boxes.
If, on the other hand, you would like to learn about more in this world than just computers, college is a great way to go. The people you meet and the overall education won't easily be matched anywhere else. I went to college and earned a degree in Aerospace Engineering. Because of the flat job market at that time ('95), I settled for a job in computers and have been working that ever since. Just to show you, college can teach you skills that you may have never realized you would use later on in life.
Something else to consider as well, the main reason I got my current position was because my boss felt that I was the best educated of all the candidates.
Go... to... college (they call it university in Canada, but same shit).
University is 80% experience, 20% learning, trust me. In just my first year I've grown immensely as a person and how I see the world. Many of my friends wanted to go but couldn't for monetary/academic reasons but would have gone given the chance.
You have the chance, so GO!
On the side note, there is also the female factor ( or male factor, if that's your bag ). Trust me, no matter what you want to do, even if you want to be a freaking janitor you should go to university if you can afford it.
My 31337 cents worth.
Reguardless of what field you get into having a college degree will ALWAYS help you later in life to make more money and have more doors open for you. Even if you get a degree in basket weaving it is still a degree. On top of the job related benefits college is just too damn fun to pass up, not to mention a great place to get laid (I am sure I will get flamed for the last statement, but I don't think it can truely be argued against).
I know someone who had a good offer for a job (he was even under contract) and turned it down to goto a second rate uni and do a degree, last time i heard (as well as other people on my hnd course) he was unemployed, I, not the best on my course, certainly in programming terms am earning a quite reasonable wage doing something i quite like, i would like to move into sys-admin (I knew this when i took my first programming job) but intend to move sideways, I'd pick a job I quite like over unemployment any day.
I am currently a sysadmin and a college student. My degree is CompSci but I also have a Physics major. I recommend going to college; you learn a lot of ideas and principles that will get you in the door with those who count: managers. If you can write shell scripts to reduce wasted space by 50%, managers won't care unless you can demonstrate the idea to them on their terms. A cert will get you going in the short term, but as soon as your employer switches to MS, your CNE is dead. However, if you can use management and business principles you could convince them to switch to Unix, look smart and get promoted in one fell swoop. Bottom line: knowing stuff is good, knowing the lingo is better.
Let me start by saying that I had an overwhelmingly positive college experience. I knew I was a computer geek before I went, and I figured I'd major in CS and become a programmer.
I went to a small liberal arts college with a great CS program. But also important was the fact that there was a student-run web group that had just gotten off the ground (this was 1996, mind you). It was a student club -- none of us were paid for the work that we did, but we maintained several Linux machines for students to serve web pages from (at this time, the college did not provide web space for students, and most students could not set up their own web servers.
I learned a heck of a lot from that club, both from trying things out on my own, but also from being around other people who knew more/different things than I did. I have since applied that knowledge in sysadmin and programming jobs.
All this would seem to indicate that you don't really need classes to get good at being a sysadmin. However, I found classes helpful (and relevant). You'll need to be a good programmer to be a good sysadmin (at least on Unix, anyway -- can't speak to Windows since I don't use it). More importantly, many employers want to see a college degree. It's not 1999 anymore, and you can't just wander into a startup and demand a job because you know a little bash scripting
College is practically a prerequisite for most high-paying jobs now, and even when the economy wasn't soft college was considered important by many employers (at least, all the ones I interviewed with).
So, my feeling is that college is both important to employers, and also a great opportunity to grow and learn from other people like yourself. Yes, it costs money (sometimes a lot of money), but the experience is well worth it. Plus, if you can find a more sysadmin-related group at your school (as I did), the experience can be much more valuable than any certification course you can take. Even if there's no ad-hoc group, you could always look for employment in the college itself (running a public lab, for instance), which both looks good on the resume and gives you valuable experience.
I never finished college and became a system admin. Back in the days of the booming economy they would just be glad to get a warm body, without much care to what that person had on paper. I applied for Senior admin job and got denied, because there is now a lot of competition and hiring committees now get to choose their candidate, meaning they will pick someone with experience AND a degree.
As for college, It was a good experience until the end where I felt like I learned much more on the job than at school.
A college degree (no matter in what area) is almost a pre-requisite for the 'good' jobs. Think of it this way, if you are an Employer, and you are hiring for a Systems Admin Position, you have 2 candidates who you need to pick from with equal on the job experience, would you take someone with a college degree over someone without one? Don't get shut out of a possible job just because you don't have a degree.
College also has several other added benefits over typical 'job experience'. College not only teaches you job skills, it teaches you to be resourceful in finding answers you don't automatically know. Programming courses in college have proven invaluable to me as a system admin even though I don't do much programming. Understanding how programming languages work and the data structures involved are not a typical job requirement but end up helping you alot in the long run. One of the best classes I ever took was "Basic Compiler Design" which has absolutely no relevance to any job I ever held, however, it did teach me a commanding knowledge of C++ and advanced data structures. If anything, college teaches you how to research problems and solve them. The college I went to make a specific point in the compsci department of not teaching specific software packages/solutions. Their goal was to teach the student how to learn those specific skills on their own when needed. In hindsight I must say that at the time it made little sense, but now I realize it makes all the sense in the world as those skills come into play almost daily.
And unless you are already married or an introverted supernerd, why in hell would you pass up FOUR YEARS of endless dating/mating possibilities? GO TO COLLEGE JUST FOR THE GIRLS, YOU WILL NEVER HAVE A MORE VARIED POTENTIAL DATING POOL IN YOUR LIFE (unless yer Hugh Hefner).
I think we'd all enjoy a nice cold beverage. -David Letterman
I have personally worked in this field for about five years now. I can tell you this much, if you don't mind working in a MS shop, go out and get you some certifications. However, if you end up finding yourself unsatisfied with your job as an MS box-admin, you're gonna need college. I am going to assume that since you are posting on Slashdot you have some interest in Unix. Well, Unix employers want college graduates. I am not saying it is impossible to find a Unix sys-admin job without a degree and just certifications/experience, just don't expect it to be easy, and expect your career choices to be limited as you move up.
In fact, that is really what college is all about: it gives you the flexibily/freedom to make the choices about your career that you want to see. Without the college background, you will end up finding yourself frustrated with your job choices in this field, no matter how much you know.
One last thing, if you aren't interested in programming, perhaps Unix system administration isn't for you. Having some programming skill is very handy if you are going to admin any Unix type system. Hope this helps!
Russian Russian Russian RussianDollSig DollSig DollSig DollSig
Get your certifications now, and concentrate on getting a job in the field. You'll probably start off at the helpdesk (don't we all?), but if you're knowledgeable and dedicated, you'll be tapped for a promotion soon enough. I'd recommend knowing the Windows clients backwards and forwards, and knowing network basics as well. And don't be afraid to talk to the admins in your company either, they can ALWAYS use help. Just don't act like you're the all knowing God and they're just there because they have an MCSE (even if it's true)...that'll get you nowhere pretty fast.
If you're going to be OS-agnostic, I'd recommend starting with an A+ and Network+ cert (you should be able to get those in less than a month). That should get in the door with an entry level position.
After that, get an MCSA (Microsoft Certfied Systems Administrator) which will easily upgrade to an MCSE. The MCSA should take about 3-6 months to earn. Then, start looking at the RHCE (assuming you have previous Linux/UNIX admin skills, you may want to start with the RHCE...it'll open a LOT of doors, but it's a good bit harder to get than an MCSA/E) to add to your resume. I'd skip the Novell CNA/E (NetWare is dead, Novell just hasn't noticed yet) and save Cisco for later (they're a royal PITA).
At that point, you should have around 2 years experience in the field, and should be able to grab a junior admin position for a larger network, or a sysadmin gig in a smaller shop. Of course, it goees without saying that if you just study for the certs, without knowledge to back it up, you'll be quickly found out and treated accordingly-so make sure you know your stuff as well.
Oh, and while I'm at it, learn Perl and shell programming for Linux/UNIX administration, and WSH/VBScript (or JScript if you prefer) for Windows administration. It'll make life easier and prove a lot of people wrong when they say "you can't do xxxx on Windows/Linux".
If, OTOH, you THINK you want a sysadmin position, but can see yourself changing careers later in life (including IT management), then go to college. Get a degree in SOMETHING (Business Admin, CIS/DIS, Comp. Eng., etc. would all work wonders). That will give you the opportunity to change career tracks later in life. An MCSE/RHCE does not prepare you for a management position.
On the plus side,
work often pays for tuition
you have a lot of experience when the time comes to move into that "real" job.
might even find that real job while going to school (woot!)
Downside?
It will take an extra 2-3 years to get your degree
you may become cold and jaded as the real world exposes you to the way things work in business rather than class.
+++ UGUCAUCGUAUUUCU
I'm gonna take the hip ol' gezzer approch. I suggest becoming a sys admin for a year. See if you really like it. A job at the enterprise level (especially in system critical applications) can be very hard. Also, I learned a great many things in college around the areas of databases, distributed applications and the like. These have helped me immensly in understanding sys administration below the GUI interface. Another feather in your hat is networking. If you can learn how to manage and layout a network you'll be dynamite. I suggest three books The UNIX System Administration Handbook and the Linux System Administration Handbook and Computer Networks - A Top Down Approch. These have great insights into all manner of networking and sys admin in general.
Remember one thing though...don't believe the hype You will use you college education, just not directly. College gives you problem solving skills that are not obtainable from practical experience.
Just my two cents...
If you can afford college, go. Most big companies look for a degree, something that shows you can learn. Also, most people that get a degree get better starting $. $ is good.
Also, college is the best time of most peoples lives, you meet a lot of people, and make lots of contacts for later down the road. If you can get a job as an assistant sys admin while in college, maybe someone who goes in on the weekends and helps out even, that would be great. But most importantly get the degree, and while you are bored in classes learn on your own.
Also, as far as getting training, I wouldn't go out and pay for anything like that. Most companies will pay for your training. If you know the basics you can get a foot in the door, then let them pay for your training.
~MrFrog
Well you have raised a couple of good points here. I will try to help you and address a few of them, but you may find the answers more confusing than helpful. :)
First, Ill start off and let you know what I did for reference, I'm sure it colors my opinions a bit. After graduating from high school I did go off to college. My major, computer science (I'm a "programmer"). I spent about a year and a half at college and finished a little over two years worth of credits. I didn't attend many of my classes and was generally bored. I was also holding down a steady and lucrative contract job in the area.
So, during winter break I decided to see if I could find a "real job". I posted my resume and had a tons of bites, went of a few interviews and had my choice of 5 different spots. I took one of them, and never looked back...
So... this is what I learned. Experience is very important, but so is a degree. They are both integral parts of your value as an employee. Granted, on the job experience is "worth" more, but for a lot of the old school hiring managers, the degree says volumes. Getting your degree is not really about "learning" a trade per say, it really says that you are able, and willing to complete a difficult and time consuming project. It says that you have the ability to stick to it, and the mental capacity the stress of life and work (college).
I am in my second job since "dropping out" (first was a .bomb, I left b4 the bomb part) and I am working my butt off to get my degree finished up using distance education. Has the lack of a degree hurt me, a little bit, but the experience that I have in the field has off set that.
To get to the point... If you can manage to do it, go to school, get a degree... Get a psychology degree or something, expand your horizons, but get your certs and your experience also. Try to hold down a contract gig during the summers, or nights. See about running the night shift for one of the local data centers... But get the degree. You will need it in the future. If you must go to work, then get your degree after hours or through distance education.
When its all said and done you have to do what works for you. If college is something that doesn't work for you, then go get a job, but get the degree. If you love college and its what you want to do, then great! But still try to get some experience and/or certs while your doing it.
Being a well-rounded person will serve you well in the future. Knowing about business and computers is very, very important. I had to learn that the hard way :)
Hope it helps :)
RyanI went for the 'straight-to-a-career' option. I took a job doing tech support for a large OEM, and hated. Fortunately I got promoted to a much better job within the company. I could have stayed there and done pretty well, but I noticed that despite all the extra money I had from working all my friends who went straight to University seemed to be having a much better time than I was. After a year of working, I started my University course.
Now after three years at University, I'm about to finish (here in the UK degree courses are only three years), and I'm finding that job-wise the degree isn't actually helping all that much. Most employers are far more interested in the work I did during summer breaks and part time than the degree course.
Basically, career wise going to University was probably of little benefit. But do I regret it? :)). The first year of University I partied as hard as I could, the second year I eased off on the partying a bit and did more University work, this year has been mainly Uni-work with relativly little partying.
No way, I'm really not looking forward to having to work for a living again instead of getting drunk and stoned most of the time (although I hear in America you have these strange laws where you can't purchase alcahol until the age of 21, but I can't believe that much attention gets paid to that crap..
Also, don't believe everyone who tells you the only way to learn is by doing. You learn a lot that way, but it's certainly not the only way to learn and it's not always the best way either. The extra time you have at Uni means that you can look into something in more depth, read up on the theory behind it, try stuff out etc etc - I found that at work it was mainly a case of getting something to the stage where it worked and then moving on to the next project. There was rarely any time to properly analyse things like you can when you're studying.
Essentially what I'm saying is that whatever you choose you can do well for yourself, but IMO choosing the college route will probably proove to be more fun :) Also, don't think that once you've chosen one path you have to stick with it - you can always decide to go and get a degree later, or drop out of college if you decide it's not for you after all.
Blaming GW Bush for the Iraq war is like blaming Ronald McDonald for the poor quality of food.
If you can convince them that you're a student, you can travel super cheap through places like Student Universe.
;-) It's too fun to pass up and you'll probably be able to get more money in the long run for it.
IMHO:
The truth of the matter is that education is far more important to your development than is training. College is about learning how to learn and so if you're just doing the JIT (just in time) training stuff, then you will not be getting as enriching an experience, as much potential knowledge, or as viable ability in system administration.
Go to college
***Statisticians predict that for every CS college graduate, 8 jobs are made (if you include the job that you yorurself get***
.: 2+2 = PI SQRT(1+N)
I got quit school the beginning of my junior year and managed to get lucky enough to get in the door of a web development firm (through who I know), I started as a web developer although I had orginally wanted to be come in as a sys admin or assistant. After showing a knack for security and working closely with the current sys admin he got a job offer for doing graffix at another company and I took on the his role. There are times that I wish I would have gone to college for areas I am lacking in such as english (as im sure you have noticed) and the life experience, but all and all I am happy with where I am at: 19 and sys admin for 2 years without college, by the time most people would have just got out of college I will have at 5 years experience. Hope this helps :)
-Ael
A good degree with decent grades says alot more than you think: a committment to study and work hard for 4+ yrs to accomplish a goal. Especially if you get a engineering/computer degree, it says that you can solve problems. Hmmm... ain't that just life...solving problems.
I build software for a medium-sized company. Some of the agencies that use our software won't hire 'counselors' to do data entry without a degree! Data entry folks making 20+K a year!
Go to school and you'll realize that time will fly faster (and you'll enjoy it) than you think.
By the way, what's the hurry? For 2 weeks vacation a year!
Otherwise, skip college and pick up a book from Scott Adams (i.e 'The Dilbert Principle') and study that. At least you'll have an understanding of what you're future holds.
Getting a broader education -- especially if it's something like computer engineering or EE that talks to hardware-- can only help your case. Knowing a little about why networks/machines are built the way they are speeds your growth.
Having just hired two sysadmins at my own firm, I can say that those without at least a two-year degree got rejected much faster than those with a BA/BS.
As for certs: having an alphabet soup of certifications after your name isn't horribly impressive outside of the HR department...
I am the Lorvax, I speak for the machines.
I'm a sysadmin of 6 years (including a year at working at Stanford), but I decided to go back to school. After a year, I decided to find a job to help offset the costs of school. I have been declined over and over again because I do not yet have my bachelors or masters in Computer Science. My six years of experience as a sysadmin/programmer hasn't helped me in the least.
It obviously doesn't make sense that you need a degree to manange a small office network, but that's what management thinks.
Go to college and decide what area of computers you want to work in. Get a degree. It'll save you in the long run.
-dys
Go to college. Most of the school work will suck while you are there, but you will make friends that will allow you to be entertained while you are stuck pulling your bi-weekly all nighter to finish your latest Systems Programming assignment. Plus, those friends will get degrees and jobs too, and provide you with lots of good contacts when you are out looking for a job.
College is not about learning anything in specific about your future job. You will learn everything you need when you get there. But college will teach you how to learn things fast when you need to, how to work for days with little sleep when you have to, and how to relax and have a beer when you can.
Get an engineering degree. There is a lot more to life than computer science, and an engineering degree will get you plenty of exposure to chemistry, physics, and math. Dont underestimate what that is worth. As a sys admin at a small company, you are going to be expected to know a bit about electricity for power management and a bit about thermodynamics for heat managment, and who knows what other strange problems you will be expected to solve. As an engineer, you are trained to handle whatever problem is thrown at you.
From a purely educational view, it's not clear that college is the right choice. I would contend, however, that it is. I think that, while you may be able to do a good (or great) job as a low-level Sys Admin now, without formal education, you may never be able to advance beyond the lower levels of the industry. This comes both from the ideas that society has ("If you went to college, you must be smarter") and, also, the fact that most (good) colleges teach you how to think and learn. While I am in no way trying to downplay the importance of real world experience (it is VERY important), I think that, if you know how to learn, it will GREATLY aid you in the future (i.e. you may know everything about systems now, but who's to say that you're going to be able to learn about new stuff in the future).
Secondly, it is my belief that college is even more important in non-academic ways. College teaches you how to act in social situations, and I think a strong majority of people who go to college will remember it as one of the best social experience of their lives (I certainly do).
As far as a major, I think you should major in something you're interested in. As I said, the ability to learn is the really important thing that most people learn in college. Say what you will about Microsoft, but their hiring policies are right on in my book ("we don't care how much you know, as long as you're smart").
I couldn't tell if you were experimenting with poor-man's cryogenics or looking for the orange sherbet.
If all you need is some mad skills to get a system administrator job, what job security do you have from me hiring another high school grad for less than you make 4 years from now? Sure, that's an easy job to obtain as you don't need a college degree, but remember, people are constantly coming out of high school and are probably willing to work for less than you will after you've been in the field for 3-4 years. Where will you be when you have to compete with high school kids who know just as much as you do, and you have no college degree?
Amen! I've changed my career goals 5 times or more since college--three of those changes while working in the technology area (programmer? manager? db admin?)--and expect to change them again before I retire. The important thing is to not close any doors at this stage and, since there will never be an easier time to go to college, skipping it now could close a door that is hard (although not impossible) to reopen. Also, if you skip college now, you may find in 10-15 years that employers will be saying, "Why hire/promote/retain someone who didn't even get a degree?"
"Love is a familiar; Love is a devil: there is no evil angel but Love." --William Shakespeare ('Love's Labors Lost')
Following that, your salary will statistically be lower (for the same levels of intelligence, skill and experience) if you don't have the degree. Most American employers still think less of a non-degreed worker and the salary averages tend to show that. I think college is only useful to people who are trying to learn something, but unfortunately, it's a certification that is fairly expected still. BTW, try college. At the very least, it can be an amazingly good time.
My teachers are all telling me I should go to college, but they don't know much about computers so they automatically assume that I wan't to be a programmer or an engineer
What's up with the "wan't"? Don't you know how to spell?
Also, if you believe that I should go to college, what should I major in?
You've ended a sentence with a preposition.
Your obvious deficiencies in spelling and grammer need to be addressed and corrected before entering a career. That's why a college education is a must. It is not the place to learn to speak and write correctly, you should have learned that along the way to becoming a graduating high school senior. You'll soon find out that college is the place that reinforces why you need to learn to communicate like an educated professional and will give you time to evolve into one. If you communicate like a country hick, then you'll be treated like a hick and paid like one too by the time you're ready for professional employment, regardless of your talents and skills.
This is long winded, but I went through what you are asking about and I fucked it all up. Pay attention.
A few years ago I dropped out of college after my second year and started working as a full-time sysadmin. During that time I have had multiple jobs, moving from working in the financial industry, to a dotcom (Which crashed and burned.) to government contracting. Each job change has resulted in a huge raise, and my salary (With no degrees or certifications.) has risen to over $65,000 USD with incredible benefits, not bad for a 23 year old college drop out with no degrees or certifications. I have my own car, my own apartment, little debt, and life is generally pretty good. But...
Not a day goes by that I don't regret not staying in school. Having a degree opens doors I never dreamed of, and people who do go through school come out knowing things that you will probably never learn on the job. Every time I turn around I think about all the useful skills I could have picked up by staying in school, especially when it comes to serious programming and computer internals. On top of that, there are always plenty of people who will not take me seriously until I get myself through night school an earn the degree.
I can understand why you might not want to go to college to be a sysadmin; most computer programs don't teach what it takes to do a sysadmin's job. But as a sysadmin who passed on college, you will find yourself trapped in far more limits than the limited choices you may have when it comes to learning to manage a network at school.
So stay in school. Just get yourself through a four-year computer science degree, and spend your time worrying about programming, network and computer internals, and other such stuff. Build good relationships with like minded folks at school and online, because helpful friends, especially on EFNet or mailing lists, will save your ass at work more than any vendor support or book. Plan ahead to find yourself good summer internships at tech related companies, even if you have to just volunteer. Try to get a government internship with a Top Secret clearance and you will be guaranteed a great job as soon as you get out of school.
When it comes to school, it sucks, but it will be worth it. Trust me.
For me working full-time and going to school part-time really worked out well for me. Get your start in an IT department or something on campus and if you do a good job, you can probably get your foot into something full-time or even permanent. but, don't give up on that degree! I'm on the seven year plan right now (school part-time) and it has given me financial freedom, great job experience and great general life experience. But, that degree is something great to fall back on and will open a lot of doors for ya.
I went to college and graduated, though not at the top of the class or anything. I was never really interested in school, and I have wanted to be a programmer since the first time I got my hands on a computer. But I do have to agree that school has giving me some valuable insight will be. The best part is that I got my summer internship as a programmer. So school is the best way out to the world.
I am currently 22 and have been a UNIX Admin for several years now. I took a couple years off from school after I graduated high school. Now I'm working towards a degree in an unrelated field. I'm hoping this will help me out in two ways.
1. With any degree, I will be paid more.
2. I have to consider that I may burn out at some point and it couldn't hurt to have a degree in a low tech field to fall back on.
My experiences have told me that admins don't need a degree to get a job. But you will make more if you have a degree in something.
Also remember that if you do decide to go to college, you don't have to finish in 4 years. Most people don't. Perhaps you can find a part time admin job at whatever college you go to.
I will admit that college is not for everyone. But if you are interested in the least about pursuing higher education, I highly suggest you go to college now. Others have mentioned that it is expensive and time consuming. I have to agree, but I like to think of it more as an investment in yourself. You are still young. I didn't know anything about anything when I was in high school, and I would expect that is the same for everyone. College gives you a place to grow and mature your attitudes....I certainly needed the time to find some form of direction in life. In the end, do what you want. School gets tougher the longer you wait. If you think you may have any regrets about skipping college in the future, I recommend you go now rather than later.
Just my 2 cents.
Even considering my experience with college; I graduated in 1998 with a Bachelor's in Computer Information Systems, having been taught the basics of programming in Pascal, Cobol, and assembly language (they refreshed the curriculum the year after I started in with USEFUL stuff like C and VisualBasic (okay, somewhat useful)). My goal was to get an admin job, and I did get one - three years later.
.edu environment, as opposed to "I hacked on a *nux box in my basement". I did, however, get my current admin job because I was able to say both of those things :)
So go to school, get the four years under your belt, learn your basic chops... sure can't hurt. If someone should happen to offer you a gig while you're still in school, see what they'll do about paying your way while you gun for the end of that four years. Employers *do* care if you learned in a proper
Come to the University of Mars! Classes starting soon!
Being a sys admin might seem like a good idea, but do you want to spend your entire life in the same line of work? A college education will give you a broader base of knowledge and skills from which you can pursue other careers and interests, the credential is pretty useful as well.
If you're interested in computers/technology I recommend you study computer science (my beloved major) any type of engineering or mathematics.
Being a systems administrator is a decent job, but it doesn't allow you to explore the horizons of new ideas, it's also socially dry and professionally limiting.
My orientation towards formal education is biased by my profession, I'm a high school teacher. It's possible to be successful without education, but going to college makes the path more easy and probable.
Consider the following:
- You won't want to be a sysadmin forever, so go to college and explore the possibilities. Once you're in a career, it's really difficult to change tracks. You may find later on that you are bored with being a sysadmin, and you want to try out something else. But most jobs don't grant you the luxury of switching gears.
- Having a "theoretical" background from a college education is beneficial even for a sysadmin. It gives you a framework for acquiring knowledge and understanding. Just knowing how to run a Solaris box or make an ethernet cable isn't enough. You need the higher-level knowledge to put it all in perspective (to think outside the box, as another poster put it).
- Certifications are worthless in my book. They get dated rather quickly, so you have to keep getting re-certified every year, and it winds-up being a rat-race. Besides, it's been my experience that if a guy has a certification, it's no indication of what he really knows or what he can really do. It's only an indication of how well he can regurgitate something on a standardized test. Kind of like a handful of the guys I've interviewed recently.
- College is fun.
Go to a 2 year college, or a 4 year.
An associates or bachelors degree goes A LONG WAY.
I went straight from high school to making $34,000 a year. They (teachers, parents, etc) told me it wouldn't happen. I didn't have the patience to go through any more school I wish I had stuck around. Sure, I can get an MCSE or what not, which I'm working on, but I'd feel alot better about my job security (and salary) if I had a degree.
go to college. You're trying to convince people that you're so smart and so good you don't need the same degree that every other white-collar worker does and you can't spell? Come on.
-_Quinn
Reality Maintenance Group, Silver City Construction Co., Ltd.
I'm a systems administrator, but I'm also in University. When I'm in school, I do development work / basic administration over the internet, and when I come home for the summer, I admin again.
It gives you the best of both worlds - a degree, and experience. When I'm done, I'll have 5 years experence as a Senior Network Administrator, and a nice piece of paper to hang on my wall.
Sure it's hard sometimes to manage a demanding job and school, but no one ever said live was easy...
Driven by 100% sarcasm - fueled by the need to be heard.
I did a year of college, then went the job route for the next 10. It meant that I started on the very bottom rung of the ladder, with the lowest paying, crappiest jobs. Then I slowly worked my way up, accumulating experience and a few certifications along the way. At about the mid-point, I finally came to the realization that a degree helps. ANY degree. So, I went to college at night and finished a BA in a couple of years. From that point, the jobs available to me and the salaries they pay, have increased drastically. Not just because of the degree, but because of the combination of experience and education.
If you can stand to go to school, go for it. Try to get a sysadmin gig at the school while you're there. That will let you feel the pain of dealing with end users, and still give you the option of changing your major to something you actually enjoy. My BA in Philosophy wasn't bad at all to get, and completely irrelevant to the job I do. But please remember that when you're applying for a job it's the HR department looking at your resume. They look for specific things that they check off their list of requirements. The more checks you get, the better your chance of having your resume passed along to the person who actually has a clue about the job.
One last thing to consider...why do you think that system administration will be what you want to do forever? I started there, then went on to various other things that are just as technical, have better pay, and far better working hours. Most people eventually get tired of being paged every night at 2:30am because someone can't get their email, and not being able to take a vacation because nobody else will be there to get paged if they're in Tahiti for the week.
Good luck!
"Suppose you were an idiot..... And suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeate myself."
This is a little off topic, but the same thing would apply I am sure to programmers as to sysadmins. We have had a number of programmers here without computer science degrees. Most of them aren't here anymore. They are the first up against the wall when the firing revolution comes. Mostly because they are only good for what they have done in the past, you can't put them on something new or switch technologies on them. That makes them very annoying.
Now before you flame me, I know there are plenty of good cross-over techies out there, and there are plenty of morons with CS degrees. But from my personal experience there isn't anything better than working with someone with a solid background in CS fundamentals.
I started out as a res tech support agent... moved up to corporate tech support... then moved up to the top of corporate tech support (handling all big problems before they go up to the sys admins)
if I couldn't resolve them I'd send them up to the sys admins... I always asked how they resolved the issues, and welp, eventually once one of the sys admins got laid off, I asked for the job and they gave it to me! I've been a sys admin for almost 3 years now, and all I have is my high school diploma... I'm 22 years old. And I'm quite happy with my life right now, I'm right where I want to be!
Go to college. Go to a big public university and have 4 years of fun and challenges with lots of other people your age. It really is worth it. There is _plenty_ of time to work later. You can probably work some while you are there.
Since you want to be a sysadmin, do your undergrad in EE. Pick up a couple of CS classes along the way. You will have a much greater understanding of all the devices you are planning to administer.
Enjoy!!! You won't regret it.
"This wound is beyond my ability to heal. We need Elvis medicine!"
Actually, I am doing the same thing right now. I am the Network Administrator for a company that does gov't contracts. I started learning things when I started high school and I am now a Junior in college.
I chose to get a B.B.A. in I.S. (Bachelor of Business Administration in Information Systems). I actually did this for a reason other than my career.
Not long after I started college, I realized that there are no degrees that match what we want to do. The reason I chose IS, is so that I could get a solid understanding of the business processes that exist, and will ultimatly allow me to move higher up later in my life. All business students are required to take a core of classes that are only business related (i.e. management, accounting, business law, etc.) These are fundamentals that i believe anyone in a business needs to know.
As for my job field, I am studying on my own, and working on getting my MCSE, and my CCNE (or at least CCNA). This part is what will give me creditability in my part of the field (no jokes about the MCSE please).
In addition to the certs, one of the best things you can have is experience. I am 21, and I already have 10 years of valid experience that i can post of my resume. This will help you more than anything else.
When I get tired of doing things IT related and wish to move up, the degree in IS will help me with that, so i guess i'm thinking of the degree as some future insurance.
I can go into much more of this, but i don't want to take up too much space. Just consider the route i am taking as a viable alternative.
------
"And may your days be long upon the earth."
You know, I had the same opinion when I was a high school senior. So I chose to go to college here in Silicon Valley instead of in my home state of Indiana.
I took a part-time sysadmin job when I was in college, and after a year or so, this blossomed into a full-time opportunity for web development. It was at this point that, after 1 1/2 years of college, I decided to drop out.
You may be asking, "Well, why should I bother with college in the first place?" I can tell you that college is right for most people. It helps those people decide what they really want to do. It gives you the flexibility to learn almost anything (for instance, I've decided that I would like to study more anthropology if I go back...) while still giving you the opportunity to study a field that you are interested in (especially a field that, like anthropology, may not have anything to do with the job you expect to receive.)
For the vast majority of 18-year-olds, especially if you have never lived away from home, college is a great experience. If you have never lived away from home, then there's no question that you will want to go to college for at least a year just to have a safe haven without living on the street as you struggle to find a job. For me, it turned out to be better to drop out, but I could never have made that decision without having that year and a half of college behind me.
Choose the college that you wish to go to wisely. I could have gone to any Indiana school, but I chose not to because of the lack of tech job opportunities. West Lafayette, IN (home of Purdue University) is absolutely saturated with talented technical college students without jobs, because West Lafayette has a dearth of tech companies. OTOH, I went to San Jose State, which doesn't have a great reputation, but is right in the middle of all the tech firms who were hiring when I was on the market while in college. Location is key if you want to get real job experience while in college.
By the way, you might want to consider a different nickname. "Chicks_Hate_Me" might have been cool in high school, but it will get you nowhere in the real world (speaking as a "Chick" myself...:)
Simpli - Your source for San Jose dedicated servers and colocation!
NOTE: IANASA nor am I in a computer-based field but I think my insight may appeal to most prospective college students.
Personally, I think it is a mistake to view college as a means of attaining only knowledge and experience pertaining to a particular career objective. Although, this is exteremely important, I don't think it should be the focus of a post-secondary education (as one could make the argument that you could learn all of this information outside of a learning institution and pass certifications).
I believe that most institutions focus on disseminating information and fail to foster lifelong learning as the real goal of continuing education. In my opinion, the greatest reward of "college" is learning how to "learn". You learn how to manage/retain vast amounts of information (ex: biochemistry major) while learning to perceive ideas and concepts with a different perspective than before. I don't think this is posisble without immersing yourself in such a "learning-intensive" environment.
Comments?
I spent 15 years as a system administrator in industry and academia, and now am a college CS prof, so I think I might have some insight here.
First, never say "I'm not going to college." The most to say is "I'm not going to college right now." That said, the danger is that the more involved you become in the world of work, the less likely you are to go back.
There are a couple of reasons for you to go to college right now. First off, any reasonable institution will give you opportunities to acquire more and better sysadmin skills while going to school. Some of the best folks in industry completed their training in college. Second, it's important to develop non-computing skills up front, such as the ability to write a scholarly paper, the ability to research an intellectual issue, the ability to give a scholarly presentation. Third, employers will have much more respect for someone with a college degree (regardless of subject): it shows that they can voluntarily put together four years of structured work.
For someone like you, I would recommend a hard science major of some kind rather than CS. (I got my undergraduate degree in Physics.) You'll get plenty of opportunities to do CS on the side. That said, you don't really have to commit to a major up front; go to school, and pick after a year or two. Figure out whether you're the kind of person who would be happiest in a small private school or a large state school, and choose accordingly.
If you decide not to attend college right now, make sure your employer understands up front that you are a short-timer who is going back to school soon. Taking community college classes on the side is an excellent way to reinforce this and build up some credit.
The bottom line is that you want to have credentials and options. Sysadmin certificates are not very impressive credentials, and leave you without career options. At this stage in your career, I wouldn't bother. The world values smart guys with general skills much more than guys with just sysadmin skills. Develop a repertoire of abilities while you have the luxury of youth.
we are talking about someone's personal problems. Everyone needs to make their own decisions in life. How about some real news now!!!
In general, however, I would highly recommend going to college, at the best one you can get into. That can set the tone for your entire career.
Skipping college or going to an el-cheapo one can save you money now, but in the long run going to a good university is probably the best investment you can make.
If all you want to be is a sysadmin until you're sixty years old, looked down upon by snot-nosed college grads one-third your age, go ahead.
All I can say is that college gives you a lot, not only computer knowledge that you're looking for, but also teaches you how to interact with other people, write technical manuals (yes, you'll have to do that) etc. It is an irreplaceable experience that you want to have under your belt. It will most definitely help you in your job search.
If you like sys ad stuff, you probably want to go for telecom degree, just make sure that it is not only about cable pooling and PBX configurations.
Finally, you probably do not want to be sys ad for the rest of your life. You will want to advance to department manager positions, project manager, CIO, CTO, etc. For that, you better have some kind of degree, or you're going to be left in the dust.
Best regards,
Ilya
I went to college in the mid '80s. Attended for a couple of years. Dropped out, and went to work in a computer store. Knocked around for a few years and tried to learn the trade at various jobs. Ultimately, in '92 I was working for a computer reseller when one of my clients (I was an Apple SE working on publishing) poached me away to become their sysadmin.
/. regular and a good friend of mine), and was able to get an opportunity to move into more of a management role with a larger company. That's where I'm at today.
Over the next six years, I learned a lot about administration, taught myself a lot, and ran a pretty good shop. We went from about 20 employees at the time to around 100 all together, and I had to scale up accordingly. Eventually, I burned out of that particular life (I'm still on excellent terms with them and my successor is also a
The reason I say "YMMV", is because I got a lot of lucky breaks in addition to working my tail off to get to a point where my lack of a degree isn't that important anymore. That said, I'd still like to get one someday, just for the sake of having done so. There are going to be points and moments in your career where that piece of paper will open doors that might otherwise stay shut. I've gotten to a pretty good place myself, but I might have been able to avoid some of the scrambling around otherwise. I'll never know for sure.
The type of degree isn't as important to a sysadmin, I think, so long as you take some classes in your field (or possibly a Comp Sci minor). In fact, I like liberal arts majors as useful to the sysadmin. You don't learn too much specific to your field, but that's what training and certs are for. What you do learn is how to study, how to think critically, and how to deal with other people. Though I didn't graduate, those are the things I remember most fondly about my college career. i definitely think it's worthwhile. As some of the other posters here have siad, you can always hold down a job while you work your way through school as well. And what you learn in college may even make you change your mind about your choice of careers. You won't know for sure unless you go, however.
-- Josh Turiel
"2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
i majored in cs and dont use any of what i got tested over. but the one thing that has proven invaluable is that you learn how to learn. you may be self-taught now, as was i before starting college, but you really don't know the meaning of having to really learn something until you have been in a situation like college. you will become much more of a better learner, you will pick things up more quickly, and you will have a higher quality of work.
these are not things that you will pick up on your own. you need to be in a situation like college - expecially if you have a job in college - that pushes you to your limits.
avoid trade schools for the same reason. even though you are a techie and you dont see the relevance in taking classes in the arts and other non-science "wastes of time" let me assure you that there is very real relevance in it. you will not remember most of what you learn, but you will retain the skills you used to learn it, and that is what college is all about.
finally, dont be lazy. work hard now and do everything you can so that you can be lazy later in life.
Whether to go to college or not depends on where you want to end up. ,if not CS or CE, because most CIO's also have an MBA in addition to the BSxx.
If you see yourself as the guru that sits down in the basement and does only techy stuff then a college education and degree probably won't make that much of a difference.
If you're ambitious and want to climb that ladder to CIO then you're gonna want a degree in MIS/ITM
Because:
1) You can't be a top-notch system administrator until you are a decent programmer. (Ad Hominem: Those people who disagree are typically non-programmers.) Optimizing a system requires deep understanding of code structures that is only found in programmers.
2) You have to finesse the personnel department's morons before you can get a good sysadmin job, or a raise for that matter. A sheepskin will blind them while you pass by unmolested.
3) Chicks who dig geeks are easier to find in college than anywhere else (although the Deer Park Tavern in Newark, Delaware is also a good place to hang out looking nerdly).
I strongly recommend going to college if you have the opportunity.
I could sit here and preach about how the education gives you something to fall back on or how businesses won't look at a resume without some sort of post high school degree, but I'm sure others here will have already told you that.
The real reason to go to college: What is your hurry to start working? You've got a whole life of work ahead of you. Take the time now to enrich your life while you are young. You'll make new friends that you will have for the rest of your life. You'll be exposed to new ideas and ways of thinking. You'll get to swill beer and puke any time you want.
But seriously... there's more to life than going to work and getting a paycheck. Enrich your life.
Remember... ZG9uJ3QgZm9yZ2V0IHRvIGRyaW5rIHlvdXIgb3ZhbHRpbmU=
Attend part time, get experience part time. Several friends have done this. It may take a bit longer but then you will have both a freshly minted degree and a few years real world experience. If your are totally gung ho do one full time and the other part time. If I were hiring and had a choice between three candidates, other things being equal, one with a degree, one with a few years experience and one with a degree AND a few years as sysop or asst. sysop, the advantage would lie with the last person.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts."
i'm still at college, and a friend of mine dropped out a couple years back. well, his pay packet beats pretty much any tech industry graduate i know (age for age i mean), and yes, it makes me a little sick ;-)
sure, he had to slum it for a while making cups of tea or something, but after switching companies a few times (v. wise tactic when you're a junior) all has come good for him. sysadminning seems to lack that 'graduate entry' wage boost that most careers have, i've noticed.
there's one downside to this. he thinks being able to knock up a shell or Perl script is the last word in programming. well, i'm glad i know C and Ada like the back of my hand, 'cos i have two career paths to his one, and that could just make a difference in 5 years' time.
hth,
a.c.
Go to college now. Go to college before you get a life, like a wife and kids and a car payment, and a house payment. If you decide to change (or HAVE to change) careers later, it won't TOTALLY SUCK because you have to go back to school, and figure out how to pay for your wife, kids and house.
I agree with all posters that say to go to college. However, not everyone is ready to go to college at the same time. If you go before you *really know* why you are going, you will probably lack motivation, not do well, and piss away $thousands in tuition while you would rather be somewhere else.
:-)
On the other hand, a part-time sysadmin position while you are in college is an excellent way to get your foot in the door, even for non-sysadmin positions.
So my advice is, figure out what you really want to do, and do that. Take no action before its time, and take the right action for the time. When possible.
This sounds like college would be a great solution for GeneralEmergency here. He sounds like someone who didn't get a degree when he should have and is now bitter about it since those with degrees are now doing his old job?
Also, note the general lack of intelligent dialect. Swearing, distain, and most notabily, bad advice. These are attributes one is likely to shed in college as it becomes importiant to learn how to communicate with others.
You are a senior in high school; your best option is to concentrate on being a great person rather than a great SysAdmin. Get drunk, fall in love, make some bad decisions, read poetry, make new friends. You will find that being fabulous will make you happier and get you farther in life than certifications or degrees. Incidentally, college is a great place to do that, not the only place, but a great one nonetheless.
As a System Administrator you are eventually going to need to know how to program, at least on a limited basis. Soon there will be less and less "administration" and more development of resources. As OS's advance they are going to take less real administration and more tweaking to fit needs. In the Open Source world it helps a great deal to have some programming skills. Also, you aren't going to want to do that forever, it gets old a lot faster than you expect it to. 10 years into your job you are going to wish for a degree. It's gets a LOT harder to go back after you get away. It can be done, but it's much more difficult. GO TO COLLEGE, GET A DEGREE, ENJOY YOUR POST-SECONDARY EDUCATION YOUTH!!!!
trust me on this. i decided to get my GED and go to tech school while programming for a local company in South Florida. After Sept. 11 -- I was given the boot. The only thing that has stayed with me is my school. Besides if you go in for a job, they always want to see what college you went to on your resume. TRUST ME on that.
You can do BOTH, go the school and work. I did it. You can go and study for your certs at the same time. I'm 19 and I just did my iNet+, Network+, and I'm preping for my Linux+ and A+ -- most people want Microsoft certs though. Expect that. UNIX/Linux jobs have sort of fallen short (atleast in South FL)
I'm still dreaming of that job offer doing Linux sys. administration w/ a lil. PHP/perl/tcl-tk/expect/java programming. But, in the mean time I'm going to school studying web development.
Like they say certs + school = "More tools in the toolbox" my friend.
But, one thing I don't recommend is finishing high school. I didn't fit in. I asked questions that were deemed as "too advanced for the class" -- a.k.a. teacher -> I have no clue what I'm talking about.
So I got my GED and started college early.
Not for everyone -- but, if you want to succeed, STAY IN SCHOOL!!!
Best of luck to anyone struggling, trying to make end's meat -- and studying for school.
perl -e '$_ = "micklweiss\@NO.gmx.SPAM.net\n"; s/NO\.//; s/SPAM\.//; print;'
go to school for awhile at least -- you have
no idea what it is like there, or who you will
meet in school.
the workplace has an entirely different type of
people than school. In college, you are encouraged
to learn about new things and you have people
around who are similarly inclined.
out in the job world, everyone is busy trying to
pay for their SUV and house. no time for new stuff.
I think college is one of those things that you
don't really apprecieate until years later.
Besides, you can always sysadmin your home
servers, maybe some dorm hosts, or even get a
consulting gig while in school running some servers.
btw -- I've been a sysadmin for the last 12
years (which suddenly seems like a long time!)
and I started by running the university's
grad student image processing lab. After that,
I've worked for GE, Nasa, and others.
You should defiantly go to college. Because it's the most fun you'll have in your entire life, you'll never again be able to experience the level freedom that you have in college. You learn more than just what they teach you in class. You'll never be exposed to as diverse a group of people in your life as you will in college. You can learn the material on your own but not the life lessons.
College is good and if you really want to speed up your career it's mandatory.
CCNA (Cisco Certified Network Associate) is VERY helpful for system administrator. While preparing to it you'll learn a lot of really useful things that help you stand your decision against upper management voluntary provisions.
A fourth reason, at least for me and a large number of friends, is the fun and life experience you gain in college. College isn't JUST about getting a degree, its a chance to gain valuable life skills in a slightly more forgiving environment than the real world. Add to that the fact the college is generally some of the most fun you'll ever have. I'm not just talking parties, its a time to do what you want, more or less when you want, its independance and a chance to use it. Hell I wish I could go BACK to college sometimes ;)
As our fine friends from South Park say, "There is a time and place for everything, and that place is college"
Apologies to Scott Adams.
Let's see here, my real name is Dogbert K. Hosehead, Jr. and I have to hire somebody to be my [your favorite toy here] administrator.
I have a choice between Dilbette A. who has a degree and, Dilbert B. who has a high school education, plays a mean game of Quake and pretty much ran the schools network for 3 of his 4 high school years.
1) D.A. gets chosen because, although she has less hands on experience she DOES have lots of thought process training that will come in real handy when something wierd goes down and it's not covered in any of the tech guides.
2) D.A. gets chosen because it's well known that this person is going to be assigned to a bunch of special working groups and we know that college professors just love to make group assignments with this in mind. D.A. has experience either getting Butthead Bill to carry his weight or distributing Bill's responsibilities so the project still comes in on schedule.
3) Even if D.A.'s degree is not a complete match for the skills I require I know that the college experience has given her certain time management skills that D.B. probably doesn't have yet.
The short answer: If at all possible, go to college. Find relevant work on the side to help pay your way through school, co-op, or anything at all that will help to beef up your resume but, even a Music Education degree can get you hired as a systems operator ahead of lots of computer experience but no degree. (Actually been there and done that.)
My office has been taken over by iPod people.
1) You may think you want to be a sysadmin. You may be certain of it, even - NOW. Part of what college does is expose you to other things, other ideas, other people. You might be happier doing something else with your life. I don't just mean in your caree r or day job, I mean everything you do.
2) As it is now, it's a tight job market in the tech industry. I'd recommend going to college instead of trying to compete with people with more experience, many of whom have degrees. Several people I know have had such difficult times finding jobs that they've gone back to college to finish the degrees they might have started but never completed.
3) Especially when times are tight, companies will use a degree as a screening criterion to thin the pile of resumes they get for a job. Some positions, especially many in government or academia (surprise) require a degree. Part of HR's justification for this is that starting *and finishing* college shows a quality of responsibility that companies like: they don't like (in general, with anecdotal variations everywhere) people who jobhop as much as they like people who are willing to complete a project. I know for a fact that two positions I've had in the past were offered to me precisely because I had a degree (I know be cause in those two cases my hiring manager told me so, later, after I accepted the jobs. Might have mattered in other positions I've had, but those two were directly told to me by the person making the hiring decision).
4) If you care about money, the salary in almost every single field is significantly lower without a degree, at almost every level of experience, and really flattens out fast after a couple of years.
I'm not saying don't work part-time as a sysadmin, that's an excellent way to learn that area of knowledge. But go to college. Ât
Or, instead of going for four years and graduating, you can do as I did and co-op 2 years, get hired full-time, and complete your degree one or two classes at a time for free (paid for by your employer).
When I graduate, I'll have 7 years college experience, 2 years working in jobs that have little to do with IT (but have made me appreciate people who work "crappy" jobs like housekeeping), 2.5 years co-opping in IT, 2.5 years working full-time in IT.
I did not finish college... I started working for a local company installing networks, and I learned a lot while doing it. I then moved on to a corporation which has a local corp. office. I left there to work for a consulting firm in a near-by "big city".....but then I came back to the corp. IT job after a year. I'm 23 years old and I have a lot of great experience. I've never had a problem finding a job (knock on wood).
Now, here's what I suggest for you.
Go to school and get a CS degree. While your there intern for some kinda of Tech company or work for the schools IS/IT dept. This way you get "the man's" degree and you get real-world experience at the same time.
Later in life you'll be greatful that you have your degree to fall back on....like when you get bored with tech and decide to move on. Or when you want to move up the corp. ladder, but a degree is required for that sweet IT Director position that comes with a nice "$chuck o' change$".
Neil
If you can't be part of the solution, there's plenty of money to be made prolonging the problem.
© 2004 The SCO Group, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Build up your own business as a consultant. Get certification as you can, but concentrate on building the business and providing excellent customer service. Your reputation, if you are good, will start to open many more doors. If everything goes to hell, then head for the Ivory Towers. If you are successfull, then the most you will need from an academic institution is an accounting class.
Good luck.
My teachers are all telling me I should go to college
Teachers and parents, always saying go to colledge. Go to college. What college do you want to go? Man these are some pushy ass people. Apparently a lot of people on slashdot want you got to college now too.
I say do what you want to do! If your really sick of school right now, how the hell is college going to help? but if you really want to learn and your are excited about school, then yes get your ass to college. College, isn't eveything. You can learn A LOT by not going to college as well. For example, after highschool I deciede to go to a kun-fu school for 3 months where we did kunfu 8 hours a day. Best decision I ever made.
My point is do what you feel is right for you now, you can always go back to college later.
If you want to be a sysadmin, then there isn't really a college in the country that can teach you that. I heard that one was developing a program, but I wouldn't want to beta-test that.
Get a degree in math, or in science, and focus your efforts on the computer options. You can always get a job at your college as an intern sysadmin for experience, but math and especially science teach you what apparently most computer science programs don't: problem solving.
I currently hire sysadmins and work as a technical/team lead, and I can tell you that the most important skill in a sysadmin is problem solving: How to diagnose a problem, then how to describe it in a language within the system in question (i.e., being able to describe the problem in English doesn't do you any good, because the solution is going to be in perl or whatever), and then iteratively implementing and testing the solution until it works.
I pay good money for this skill, and the only ones I see having it are science and math grads.
Not that you're guaranteed to get those skills in those programs, no more than you're guaranteed a Science paper if you stick with the science, but you're a lot more likely to get them than in any other major.
And as to people saying that you don't need the degree anymore, it's passee: Yah, they might be right in terms of career (although there are still plenty of companies who rely on eduction as a measure of worth, and all of your counter examples of companies that don't, doesn't change that), but in terms of you as a person, you need a degree. It will educate you, grow you as a person, it will get you away from all you know and love and force you to learn to operate on your own. It's your chance to experiment with who you are for four years without someone breathing down your neck saying "You can't change, our relationship won't support that!" Don't ever underestimate the value of being allowed to change; those who went to college may not realize it, but that's probably the most important thing they got out of it.
So basically, don't skip the degree, because it's good for more than your career, but don't get a CS degree, because it's worthless unless you want to be a code monkey. Anyone who thinks that CS is applicable to system administration hasn't tried to apply standard CS tools like make and CVS to system administration--you quickly realize how different the world views are.
Go to College and get a degree that has nothing to do with what you want to do in life... Find something that is interesting and study the hell out of it. At the same time, pursue a career while you are in college, maybe working at the college computer administration facility.
I went to college to get a EE, hated EE, and got degrees in PoliSci, and Economics. Now I'm a Network Engineer. What college did for me was made learning new ideas and concepts a process. High School can pretty much be phoned in, so there is very little learning done on a day to day basis, and the level of comprehension necessary to do well, is much lower.
You don't have to major in comp sci or engineering to do what you want to do. There are a lot of schools that are adopting new majors for people just like you. For example. Penn State has a major called Information Sciences and Technology. I'm taking a lot of sys admin classes there, and they have a certification program within the curriculum. I've heard other colleges adopting this approach. Univeristy of Michigan, Carnegie Mellon, even UPenn are offering similar degrees. You are going to want a college degree later. When there was that initial demand for computer specialists, you could get away with out a degree. But as the workforce approaches the demand, they'll start requiring a degree more and more. So start going to some web sites of colleges you are interested, and see if you can get a curriculum that isn't just coding or enginnering. College is great anyway. Drinking, girls, and computer classes...
That's right, he doesn't *really* know what he wants. But you do, obviously. I envy your omniscience; are you a God?
I think your teachers might also want you to get an education.
If you can go to college, go to college. Get a job working at a lab or with the CSci department. Major in what you find interesting.
The sysadmin sitting a few chairs away from me has a B.S. in Applied Mathematics. I just tried to get more information out of him and he told me "none of your f***in business." Now that's job security!
My Karma was at 49, then they switched to words. All that work for nothing!
I'm 20 and I already feel washed up. Maybe it's just the current job market but I still lay awake at night wondering if I'm going to have to fight for a new job if I lose my current one.
Don't get me wrong I have a great fairly well paying job right now. Put it this way.. I was making as much as my dad was when I was 18. I never went to college, and I don't have that many certs.. but I do have a rather massive (at my age anyway) nearly 5 years of real world experience.
But now that I feel the years creeping up on me, I think more and more of college. I'm going to have to go sooner or later because after 20, you look less and less like a kid who just hasn't gone to college yet and more and more like a guy who never went to college. You can slide by on the former, but it's harder to on the latter.
So, my advice is if you can make a load of money right now, do it. But save it! Then go to college when you run out of steam in a few years and when you have enough money saved up to support yourself while you get educated..
But as the industry goes, you have no idea what it will be like in a few years.. like I said if you can get a great job now, do it. You may not be so lucky in 5 years. Just remember college looms over your head until you go.
I just wasted your mod points! HA!
In addition to the benefits it will have in getting you a job that pays more, opens doors to management, yadda yadda, yadda... let me just state the following:
Tons of beer.
Tons of women. (Yes! Yes! Yes!)
Tons of parties.
You will also be able to look down your nose at all those w/ out a degree AND make more money.
Seriously, don't assume you will be a geek all your life - one day you may turn to something quite different which your college degree will help you with.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
What to major in: whatever you want. Don't waste your time in an MIS department. Major in one of the liberal arts, since those are more likely to teach you how to think and how to write. (And for the record, mathematics and physics are both liberal arts, as are music, history, English, etc.)
Having a college degree is important enough that even Steven Spielburg has put in nights and weekends just to complete his degree this spring, 33 years after dropping out.
AnhZone
Patriotism is the conviction that your country is superior to all others because you were born there. (GBS)
... I got in and out of a 2 year SysAdmin program(AAS degree). WELL worth the time. I'm glad I went, and now I wish I would have done the full 4 years.
I found that sys admin is not as much about knowing computers, but about managment of computers, resources, etc. Things I never would've picked up outside of school, on-the-job-on-the-fly(like most of my technical knowlege) type learning. The college forced me into quite a few 'unrelated' classes but for dealing with the managment end of sysadmin, the experience is priceless.
Also, for me I wish i would've stayed for another 2 years to get a BS degree. Becuase now that I have a full time job, its almost IMPOSSIBLE to go back to school. Time is a finite resource. I had the time before, but with a full time job, heh, good luck. And I'm kinda outa luck in the advancment department, the fields I want to get into all REQUIRE a 4 year degree, so I'm SOL right now.
Go to school, get it over with. Do it while you have the time and the drive.
Especially with the FUBAR job market right now. I have a good friend that is a very good system administrator that has been out of work for at least 6 months. Where I work several contractors are being let go (due to an end of contract thing) and they are having difficulty finding positions (both programming and administration). Also many corporations won't even consider people without degrees and as time goes on a degree becomes more of a requirement to even get a job. Also, it is much easier to get the degree right after high-school than it is to get it afterwards. I am a programmer and I do not yet have a degree. I have over 18 years of experience (I started working right out of high-school and never had the time and/or the money to get a degree). I look around me and see that most of my colleagues have Masters or Doctorates and I don't even have a BS. It really is expected that everybody in this field has a degree. I also wonder were I will get the time to obtain the degree that I really should have...
As for a Major, I would strongly suggest getting an IT degree. Even though you want to be a System's Administrator and not a programmer I think it would be very helpfull for you to know programming to help you better understand the machine and how everything works. That would also give you the flexibility of becoming a programmer, analyst, quality assurance or whatever if you ever have difficulties finding system admin positions or perhaps will give you a way to make more money depending on the job market for the different positions at different times. The more flexibility you have the better able you will be to cope with downturns and the more oppertunities you will be able to take advantage of!
I would also suggest working part-time as an aministrator or operator while going to school if you are able to. Going to a junior college 1st and then transferring to a university is also an option, but make sure that you do continue on to a university and don't get trapped attempting to go to school and work at some job and the same time and wind up just working and not going to school. That is what happened to me.
A degree opens doors.
Bullshit. Experience and fingers open doors. Clearly this is a lie.
College is about learning what you don't know you don't know. Not about learning what you know you don't know.
Bullshit. In three months of hard work you can learn MORE applicable knowledge than any University can teach you. When they're not teaching you what you won't use, they're teaching you what you will use except more slowly than learning it on your own.
College is four years of drinking
True. Wouldn't you rather be making some bucks in the meantime?
College helps prepare you for the politics of any business, that's all. This you can learn as you go, and there's no politics that are worse than any school.
Get a couple of Cisco certifications, get a network certification of some sort, and get some experience at any pay. Two years before your friends are done school you'll be changing to your second IT job.
It's all about selling yourself. So it depends on who you are interviewing with. Doctors and lawyers want that degree. I wouldn't waste my time with a masters. If your future employer actually knows something about computers, they will want to see real deal experience. Even for the Cert/Degree snobs, real experience speaks volumes. So you can see where my opinions lie. But after having said that, I did finally break down and get an A+ certification. Even though I am a Lan Administrator and I make a lot of money, I want to caution you. I am grandfathered in. Meaning I watched the computer industry grow up. So I know a lot. And I have a long list of good refernces. But it isn't always enough for some people. Don't count on being as lucky. 4 year degree, MCSE and Cisco certification would pretty much do it for you. Information Technology is kind of a hard racket to break into quickly. Find a good job market. Go to school there. Get an internship. Get a job. Make them pay for your certifications. You might look into ITT technical institute. I think you can get certifications as part of your tuition.
Reason numero uno to go to college. Sex. I had more sex in college than ever and I sometimes think about going back just for that. You'll meat shedloads of people and have a lot of fun, but for the money, the sex is the biggest reason to go.
Whoa whoa whoa...
There's WAAAAY more to life than just being a sysadmin-- the experiences you have in college-- stuff that has nothing to do with computers-- will likely give you more perspective on the world and make you a more savvy, broad-minded, aware, and generally knowlegable person.
In college, expect to be exposed to a variety of life perspectives-- scientists, poets, philosophers, athletes, artists, engineers, religious nuts, political types, the ultra-rich, the unbelievably poor, etc. from everywhere in the world. You will undoubtedly get involved in all kinds of extracurricular campus goings-on and discover whole new scenes that will put merely honing your sysadmin skills in context.
Be sure to take classes in areas that you don't really know anything about- I found this an excellent way to stretch your brain. It's worth it though.
College, IMO, is about broading your horizons, growing in different directions, exploring, having fun, fucking up, and learning about yourself.
And yeah, as a nice side bonus, higher ed will make you way more marketable in whatever you do. But to me anyway, that's not the point. I wouldn't have known that when I started, but that's what I found to be the case.
Plus they have hot coeds there.
W
-------------------
This is my SIG. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
I went to college for three years, then stupidly dropped out. I was very good with computers by then, and I survived for three years doing "independent consulting".
However, I was adviced to go back and finish school, which I eventually did. I have now been employed as an engineer for almost three years.
However, the moral of this story is this: While I was job hunting - both before and after my degree - and the recruiter gave me the opening to ask questions, one question I always asked was that; Who would you be most likely to hire? A person with good skillsets, but no degree, or a person with limited skillsets, but a degree?
To a man, they all answered versions of this:
The person with a degree, because he's PROVEN he finishes what he starts, and he's willing to pay the price and stick it out for what he wants.
Just my $0.02
Watch the Teaser Trailer for "The Lightning Thief" Her
I found if you really want to be taken seriously you should go to college, get a CIS or equivalent degree - meanwhile using the time to gain more knowledge. The college experience is something that will always benefit you, although it is not representative of the real world. You're young - take the time to soak as much information up as you can, get your certs while in college, and do not let idealism dictate your education, it does not dictate corporate policy. Learn broadly, a good sysadmin will be flexible and have knowledge of a range of solutions. College will teach you some of the finer points if you are already competent, which will only increase your ability as a sysadmin. College will also give you good time/project management skills - which are essential, especially when you need to put out several fires at once...which is when they happen, all at once. Also, a good sysadmin does program. There will always be a need for you to whip out a quick and dirty app or script for one reason or another.
ymmv
Ok, I didn't learn much in college, at least as far as CS goes, that is really applicable. In my 5 years of real world experience, college has meant very little. It doesn't change the fact that I needed a degree to get my foot in the door, or to even get anyone to look at my resume.
The true value of college is its impact on your personal life. Not to sound cheesy, but you will make life-long friends and see and do things that you would not have the oppotunity otherwise. My years in college were the best years of my life so far. I wouldn't change it for the world.
[FromTheMorning]
I'm only a year older than "Chicks_Hate_Me", my problem was that I wasn't really ready for college, I was lucky enough to get a job at a really awesome company, getting a job first really helped me to decide what exact area in the computer field I want to persue. I really want to go to college now, because I have a reason. The other benifit is I'll have quite a bit saved up for when I start college.
Summary:
College for sure, but working first will help give you a reason for college and some money.
I would recomend going to College for one basic reason, clout. I work with an MCSE right now. Before I arrived he held that certification over everyones head to get his way. He tried it on me and I politely told him his certification was shit compared to my degree (Which I think all certifications and degrees are pretty worthless, experience is the key). Needless to say the boss also saw it my way. Besides, what better time to spend 4 or 5 solid years drunk.
Where else are you going to find all week parties, alcohol and sex!
I just graduated with a computer engineering degree, and I worked my way through college as a sysadmin. College is a hard choice... yes, it is expensive and time consuming, but it opens possibilities that you probably won't get anywhere else.
Colleges are well known for clubs. Join them. College is where you start this thing called "networking"... not with wires, but with people you know. I got my job from a posting on the campus LUG mailing list. Aside from the social aspect, they can really pay off. College cities are full of companies willing to give a student a chance, and tend to be flexible on stuff like your work schedule.
Other than all that, many jobs want a degree as minimum. Some of them are willing to take experience as a substitute for a degree, but in the competitive market now, there aren't many. Consider college to be "time out" from the currently somewhat scary Real World.
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
Everyone goes to College mainly because everyone else does. The problem now is that a college education is a bit like what a high-school diploma used to be: a ubiquitos minimum requirement for getting your first job.
That being said, many people will say that if you don't get a diploma, then you're missing this basic qualification and you will suffer. I tend to disagree, especially when it comes to IT operations work.
If you can get a job now, AND if the job you get will give you good experience, then you can skip college. The experience you gain will put you ahead of college graduates your age when they get out of school. On the other hand, if you get a job that provides minimal experience and stimulation, you might as well have been in College for those years getting a degree and having a good time.
Theres obviously the cost of College to factor in: don't think you won't feel better than your friends in a few years when they have big student loans to repay and you're sitting on a downpayment for your first house.
The problem with college is that everyone has it, so while you may stand out for not having it, you may also stand out because of what you did instead.
If you can get a good job that will give you loads of experience, go for it. Then do as many certifications on the side as you can. I think you'll find its more rewarding than getting a degree that you'd like to be proud of, but which won't open very many doors.
I saw a stat claiming 60% plus of sys admins have Liberal Art degrees. In other words you don't have to major in CIS or CSE to get work as a sys admin. While studing philosophy and French, I always had a technical job. Since I've been out of school, I've never had a problem getting a job and I've never resented sending my monthly student loan check. Good IT experience and a BA can take you pretty far.
This Sig. is False.
You need a degree to move your entry level resume to the top half of the pile. You don't need a degree to get started. Just don't be one of those guys that bags groceries for four years and can't figure out why he can't get a serious job offer after graduation.
With few exceptions you just have to do some time changing tapes or cleaning coffee out of keyboards (worst possible shift of course) before you will make good money. It's a good time to think about what you're really interested in and get some focus - maybe even adjust your course choices accordingly. If your lucky you can get a job where things are done right (free time cause everythings WORKING) so you can double-dip and get paid while working on your school stuff.
Besides that, blah blah cultural enrichment blah people skils blah blah blah communication skills blah business savvy blah blah blah and that about sums it up.
Well, I think your teachers are misguided, but on the right track.
If they thought you wanted to be a programmer or an engineer they should be recommending University, not College.
However, since all you want to do is be a sysadmin, College should be fine, as Colleges teach more of the trades and actual practical skills that sysadmins need. University would only teach you theory and a lot of high-brow stuff that you will not need for being a sysadmin.
I would recommend enrolling in a college System Administration program, or if they don't offer that a Computer Technician or Information Systems diploma.
The bottom line is that you don't need a degree to be a sysadmin, and it sounds like you aren't even interested in the kind of education Universities offer. By all means, go to College, it's perfect for precisely what you want.
I work with a girl who never went to college, and has 20 years experience. She is smart, and does the job well, but I just finished college this year, and I am doing the same job. She is getting 10k less a year than I am and I am just out of college (Granted I have a masters in CS). The point is, that 4-5 years of your life can make up for 20 or more years in pay... Plus there is a lot more to college than the learning. It is the most rewarding and fun time of your life. Don't be in a rush to get in the real world. It has to many real problems...
Which is exactly why I recomend that you go to College.
The first year or two is about teaching you communication and reasoning. That's what a Liberal Arts education is all about. You can't communicate effectively with someone else unless you understand their perspective, and College general ed is all about forcing you to understand many different ways of looking at the world through exposure to art, social sciences, history, etc. It may seem pointless at the time, but the added perspective of just being exposed to those things become invaluable in the real world.
Upper division courses are where those communication and reasoning skills are really applied to your chosen field. This is where you will learn the concepts behind the methods that you will actually use in the field. You don't need to know the concepts to use the methods, but it does give you an edge by making your knowledge more portable (understanding the concept of ACLs, for example, makes it much easier to understand and use the various implementations on different OSs).
Having a degree also makes your resume more visible. The main reason, in my experience, is that having one demonstrates a willingness to persevere, even through tasks that seem pointless. People with degrees tend to be less volitile, more able to see projects through to completion, and generally have a bigger "toolbox" from which to pull solutions to complex problems.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
I would not want to lock myself in a particular position, if I were at your age. Technology changes over time, and demand for a particular knowledge is changing with it. If at this point you would like to be a sys admin, do that. But do not neglect academic education (as oppose to training & certification). I would even suggest that you put higher priority to it, and does sys. admin part time. Things are changing, and changing fast.
A College degree on the resume will increase your odds of having your resume looked at when applying at many major corps. But you will waste 4+ years that you could've spent in the practical world learning real skills. If you think you need help learning non-technical things (writing, history, psychology) to get by in life, then a bachelor's degree is for you. I ended up at a private high school that had pretty decent education, and between that and just reading on my own, I felt the social aspects of college were a pretty bad bargain for me.
On the technical side, if you can code in a few languages, and you understand hardware (not just plugging in a new IDE HDD, but hardware as in breaking out a soldering iron), you're already much further along that most CS grad students. If you can add to that a solid understanding of systems-related stuff (like storage management, high availability, clustering, etc...), you're golden on skills. Don't forget that a lot of that stuff, you can pretty much BS about it on the resume and learn-as-you-go if you're that kind of person, and still perform better than most candidates in the field.
Anyways, that pretty much sums up how I got by. My "peers" now have a BS in CS and 4 years or so on the job, they're doing junior admin work, and they rely on vendors to tell them how the technology works. They really aren't worth of the cubicle space they take up. I have a 9 year resume, the latter half of which involves doing myriad deep things on really impressive hardware and software environments. I make double what most of them make, and I usually get to pull off the alpha-geek thing of wearing jeans and t-shirts to my downtown office, coming in late, etc... with taking any hassle.
As a matter of fact, when I've had to interview new recruits to work under/with me in my jobs recently, I generally toss out recent CS degree holders in favor of the self-taught type. I've learned that cookie-cutter CS people generally don't get the big picture, and don't have the nitty-gritty technical skills to boot. All they have is a rough theoretical understanding of the middle-ground as it applies to outdated systems, languages, and technologies.
In place of looking for and asking about College on resumes, I look for things like:
(1) Do you use Linux or *BSD at home?
(2) How big is your collection of O'Reilly books? (I really ask this in interviews, and it's a great indicator for self-learners)
Anyways, enough rambling. If you're smart and you have a natural feel for these kinds of things, jump into the industry, don't waste your time. You'll have trouble landing some jobs, but those are generally at companies you would end up being unsatisified with anyways.
11*43+456^2
I'm in university right now.
I never wanted to be a sysadmin, but magically, I am, right now, typing this from my workstation at work (a department of the university i attend).
I'm a Beowulf cluster sysadmin. And i can tell you, knowing the theory, the generic CS theory, is *useful*. Like nothing else.
Skillz and certificates you can pick up when you need them. On the cheap. Nothing replaces understanding what's going on. College (or university) will give you that.
And I'd suggest you'd get something in Computer Science, with a Mathematics or Philosophy minor. (I'm doing major in CS, with two minors, Philo and Maths)
**COLLEGE**.
At all costs. It'll expose you to things no other sysadmin has seen before, it'll give you wide oppurtinities to look around and just learn, to face tasks barely anyone else can grant you the chance to face (I logged in and did minor development on SUPER-UX NEC Supercomputers at 5millions RENT each -- where else do you get that?), it'll teach you to learn.
Repeat after me, it'll teach you to learn.
**COLLEGE**.
Face it, you are going to be working for the rest of your life. Why start sooner.
College is not a vocational school, although the US News rankings and guidance counselors would have you think otherwise. College is great for a number of reasons:
1. You can explore a wide variety of subjects or even a variety of topics within a disipline (like AI vs. Databases)
2. You have an opportunity to party and get laid all you want.
3. You get a chance to finish growing up without your parents in your face. Making 40 or 50k out of highschool is nice, but you won't be as free as you think. That lease you have to keep paying on plus groceries plus car payment is a real pain in the ass.
Plus, any intelligent being gets sick of being a Sysadmin after awhile. What seems really cool today may not be so cool when you do it for 40-50 hours a week, every week.
Go to college, take some classes and get a degree. If the degree is in computer science, great, if it is in Philosophy or Rennaisance Literature, that's cool too. Just broaden your horizons and enjoy yourself.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
At this point in your life, you really don't know what you want to do. You may think you want to be a Sys Admin, but do you really want that as a career? Do you want to spend your life supporting others and making sure systems run, or do you want to have a chance to move up and be the one being supported?
College is a place to learn lots of things. Don't just go expecting to get a degree that will help you get a job. Learn new and interesting things that you didn't know anything about. Learn to speak a foreign language, to appreciate art, take an economics course, or a music course. My biggest regret in college is that I was too focused on my CS degree, and I didn't see the need to do something like study abroad. Use the opportunities like that, they won't come back.
Also, sign up for things like a coop/intern program. Go be a sysadmin for a summer, see if you really enjoy it.
But, if you have a chance to go to college, do it, and use it to expand your world. It's a once in a lifetime opportunity. It's not just about getting a job afterwards, it's about providing you with the basis to become a more interesting person, and to have a more fulfilling life.
I may be biased, because I work in the Math/Computer Science Department at the local community college, but I really suggest you attend some college, even if it is only two years. I am not involved the Information Systems degree at our school much, but I hear a lot of students in that degree field who say, "I just want to be a System Administrator. I hate programming," when they are complaining about the introductory programming requirements for their degree. ... how to read it, write it, create it, improve it, fix it, etc. If a problem should arise within your system, and it cannot be fixed easily, you would be better off having knowledge of programming so that you can hopefully work more efficiently.
From what I understand and from what I've been told by people who teach here and have worked in the field, anyone can be a System Administrator, but there is a big difference between a "good" SysAdmin and a "bad" SysAdmin and that the distinction usually has to do with knowledge of code
Now, if you already believe that your programming skills are great, then good luck. Just know that there is always going to be thousands of people looking for the same job you are and considering the current market, most of those people are actually BACK in a university during the downtime in order to finish their degrees or add on new ones.
------
Remember: The Lord is watching you. Try to be entertaining.
I recently had to go through a job change (which is my first since the economic down-turn). I found a lot of the companies I applied requesting college experience. Some even turned me down since I lacked it. The answere is this, college will help you get a job but it will not nessesarilly give you any skill worth using at that job. College comes in to play later in your professional life. Do you want to (one day) progress past the glorious title of System Admin, and possibly manage a crew of your own? College is pretty much expected in that case. Where do you want to go today? Fact: Many companies offer tuition re-imbursement once you're hired. Why not look in to a Junior Admin job, and get some of your Generals done at night? You could possibly finish up a Comp Sci or equiv. program later down the road. Just don't kid yourself, at this very moment it's hard to get in to a decent tech job without 5 years of experience, or a college degree on your resume.
Were those years a waste? No. I learned a lot of valuable things. I took a lot of classes in undergraduate school on a variety of topics from socratic dialogue to Vietnam-era literature. It broadened my horizons and gave me the time to sort out what I really wanted to do. It also developed my thinking skills, which makes me more capable at turning my hand to a variety of things and better able to think my way around a problem.
So, I would say, unless funds are an issue (I went to college on scholarships and a little parent-ership and have no student loans to pay off - this is the best way: most of my friends are still paying off those loans), take the time to explore. Don't take all computer classes, take some botany, or acting, or geology, or even an introductory astronomy class (but be aware that math is involved). Take Shakespeare or art appreciation or greek literature. The ability to think is what college os for. I don't think anyone outside of medical or law school actually does what they go to college for. I know three people who hold psychology degrees: one's an accountant, one's a graphic designer and one is between careers (was in computers, is looking for something more intellectual, whatever that means). Also, remember that education is what you make of it. My state college was fine for what I wanted: a broad education in a variety of subjects. Most community colleges can fulfill this need. Don't spend more than you have (see above).
Real world experience is great. But 3 or 4 years of learning new ways to interpret that experience is invaluable.
Just remember Hans Gruber in Die Hard: "Benefits of a classical education."
Do not touch -Willie
While I do not necessarily recommend this for anyone else, this is what happened to me and what I know.
I started off going to college, but because my parents couldn't afford much of a school, I was stuck going to a small liberal arts school in southern NJ majoring in Computer Science. By the middle of the second semester, I was bored and decided to drop out.
About 1 year later (after I had time to rethink my life), I went and got the "hottest" certification at the time which was an MCSE. Although I already knew I was a UNIX guy and preferred to work on UNIX systems, the MCSE was a stepping stone to better things. And honestly, this path worked for me. A few months after finishing my final exam followed by some teaching in the same disciplines, I found a job working as a System Administrator. The salary was about $43,000/yr. For someone with no experience and no college degree, I thought this was a great start. Keep in mind, I was also offered a supervisor's job which I personally did not feel I was ready for. Also, of all the people who applied for the same job (there were 20+ positions available) and got it, my salary was the second highest while most of the other individuals did have previous experience and did have a college degree.
College degree didn't seem to be an issue.
After about a year I went on looking for other jobs. While I think about 2 of the 40 some opprotunities gave me a "ick" look when I said I didn't have a college degree, I still found the lack of college degree to be a moot point. It was how I sold myself. I received several offers from various companies, but I held out and found a job doing something I've always wanted to do which was internet security.
So, I find a job about 18 months after I started my first job doing Internet security work. My current salary is +50% of what I started at on my first job, and I've been here 1 year (so a total of about 30 months in the industry). While I know some may say I don't make all that much money, I'm pretty happy, and I could leave making +$20-25k (already been offered), but besides the point...
I think you need to consider several things.
1) Can you afford college? do your parents have the financial resources without putting a 3rd mortgage on the house to get you through 4 (maybe 5) years? If so, go to college.
2) How well can you sell yourself? Are you really as good as you think you are? Can you show what you know while standing in front of a whiteboard? If you're in doubt, go to college.
3) How far do you plan to go in life? Do you want to sysadmin all your life, or do you want to be a manager? Director? VP? If you do, I suggest college.
4) Do you work well with others? If not, the personal skills you develope in college could help.
Anyway, just a few things to think about. I don't think the answer is the same for everybody.
...because it'll be the best years of your life. College is for slacking off, getting drunk and scoring hot chicks, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Guys who work hard at college will make more than you, and guys who skip it might as well (without loans to pay off) but they cannot buy the memories you will have.
We have achieved a society that is rich enough to allow a fair proportion of our young people to slack off and enjoy college. That's a precious gift. Don't waste the opportunity, and don't ever let anyone tell you that you should work hard now and reap the rewards later, because you'll never be as well equipped, physically and emotionally, to live life to the utmost as you are right now.
So go out there and slack like you've never slacked before. Just remember to panic cram your way through the exams, but don't get all confused by thinking you're actually learning anything that you'll use in your working life. ;-)
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
know that you want to be a system admin? How do you know you don't want to be something entirely different. My idea of my life has changed dramactically since I was 17 or 18. I'm only 22 now, and the changes just keep on coming. I didn't go to school, but I would recommend that you go. Once you get out, it is very hard to get back into it, unless you are pushed. Especially if you get out on your own two feet and have bills and responsbilities. I've been a system administrator before, and now I'm a developer, but I knew that is what I wanted to be. System administrator jobs are stressful and boring in my opinion, although unlike a development position you can generally leave your job at work and go home and relax. Go to school and get a degree in something completely non related to computer, then use it with them. If you already have the knowledge, college won't teach you crap. But if you go learn something unrelated, then you may actually have fun at your job, and not get stuck writing stupid code for some businessman. The most important thing to remember is at some point in your life work and computers will become less important then friends and family. So go to school and make friends!!! just my $0.02
As a manager (part-time, computer scientist the rest of the time) who hires, I can't be emphatic enough when I say get a degree. While my employer will hire non-degreed people for sysadmin work, you will be limited.
First, your salary will be much lower (about $15K/year where I work) and getting a job w/o a degree and w/o tons of very good experience is very hard. Secondly, your options for growth will be limited. Sure, you may have no desire to manage people now, but what about in 10 years? 15 years? Lastly, it's very true that people without degrees are laid off first. Since the economy has turned down, we get tons of resumes from people without degrees. They go in the recycle box as there are plenty of people with degrees out there looking also.
If you really hate college, an associate's degree is still better than nothing. I have a friend with an AA who's making $65-70K, but a BA/BS is really the way to go. Plus, you may find out you have more broad interests. Perhaps computer security, which is a related field, but really needs a degree to be considered for a respectable position.
-Norman
I don't know, but it works for me.
CS is NOT the only option if you go to college (which you should). Read on:
It can only benefit you to suck it up and earn at least a BA/BS. Having great IT skills (whether in programming or administrating) is only one part of the picture.
I know a number of IT working professionals that have said they are glad they had some exposure to disciplines like psychology(for dealing w/ users/management), ecomonics/business (can often help in understanding the bigger picture and your place in it), and anything in the humanities (literature, philosophy, foreign languages).
A lot of the knowledge you can glean from "non-CS" areas will help you be a more effective person. No joke. Employers respect someone who can communicate well by demonstrating a extenisive vocabulary or someone that can empathize/indentify with an opposing perspective.
This may sound like it comes from "Chicken Soup for the Soul" but I feel that "liberal arts" education plays an important role in your marketablity and versatility in the job market. (not to mention having a breadth of interests and knowledge make you an more interesting person...)
My two cents.
(of course, college may not help you be a better typist!)
Get the career while you're going to college. I was lucky and got some really good training in the military on Unix systems. Then while I was still in the military got a job at a NASA site as a Jr. Sysadmin. I took quite a few college classes while I was in the military but never came close to a degree. I mainly took technical classes, programming and networking mostly. I think that having a degree will help you get interviews, but as far as what you're learning in college, you're lucky if it really helps much toward practical SysAdmin skills. I haven't seen many Sysadmin classes that were worth a damn at college. They're really junior for the most part. Vendor training is closer to the mark, but always very specific to their product. Where else are you going to learn about volume management and setting up a backup server though?
One good avenue is to go to college and then get a paid internship at a company or your local NASA research center (if you have one) and learn the real skills at the internship while you're learning the theoretical stuff at college. Even if you don't get a degree, it's always helpful to take at least the minimum college computer classes: (Assuming Unix SysAdmin)
TCP/IP
Bourne Shell programming
Perl (lots of Perl if you can find it)
Basic Networking
Unix
Taking a few classes in a programming language would probably help, and make you more versatile to an employer. Mostly I just took programming classes for fun. Compiler and Internals classes probably won't be as useful as they seem on paper.
Certifications are great resume fodder, but that's about it. Get the CCNA, and a Solaris or Linux cert if you want to pad your resume. Also join USENIX/SAGE for resume buzzwords if nothing else.
In the end, the one thing that helped me most was working with a really good senior Sysadmin when I was a junior. He'd teach me anything I wanted to know and was really patient with me. I learned more in a month working with him than in any class I ever attended in college.
Best of luck breaking into the field.
Keine eier
You may already know alot about what you want to do. I was coding long before I went to college. But, no kidding, if you are competing for a job against others who happen to have that degree above you, who do you think is going to get it. And, even if by some chance you managed to beat out someone with a degree, you sure won't get paid as much as if you had your degree.
I was a late starter and boy do I regret it. I didn't go to college till I was 25. I'm now 31 and have about 6 years less corporate experience than my peers, not programming experience, however, I'm 6 years behind them in staff level/salary.
So get in there you big furry oaf! I don't care what you smell! :-)
Ascalante: Your bride is over 3,000 years old.
Kull: She told me she was 19!
My history:
BA Chemistry.
MS Chemistry.
Currently I am an IS Manager. Though college classes didn't directly teach me my trade, they did teach me much else (organization, project planning, etc.), and while there I worked part time as at the helpdesk. That experience was great.
Some people will say college is worthless, but it really depends on where you go. College is probably the best example of getting out what you put in.
Long term not having a degree can hurt your ability to advance in system administration, it will be harder to get into managerial positions.
That said, I have also made 2 job offers to people without degrees, one of whom I offered a salary high than mine, he was that good.
Hope this helps.
Ok, I give up, why you?
I can only speak from my own experience.
I went to university and studied computing, specialising in real-time and industrial controll applications development. The key skills it gave me are programming and understanding how operating systems are designed and how they function. I've found this an excelent basis from which to build a career as a system admin and systems implementation engineer.
Even if you're not principaly a programmer, you need programming skills to write custom scripts and queries. If you know how operating systems and applications are engineered, you've got a big headstart at figuring out what's going wrong when something breaks down.
Simon Hibbs
I say take a more targeted approach for now and go to college when, and only when, you become bored, burnt out, disenchanted, frustrated and really sick and tired of all those god damned "college boys" who make more than you but REALLY just don't know DICK!
I'm still not sure if this guy is being a troll, sarcastic, or serious. Either way, he makes a great point for getting your degree.
"Communism is like having one [local] phone company " - Lenny Bruce
You didn't say if you've been accepted to college or even applied, so the question may be moot. However, even if you can go, too many kids rush out of high school and into college without knowing what they are going to do when they get there. In your case I certainly think, if you can find work in the computer field, that a year spent doing that would be a positive step before and if you decide to go to college.
Go to college and get a student job with the campus computing services department. You'll probably start off as a lowly cable-pulling punk, but give it time and make sure they know what you want to get out of working for them. Eventually you will get the opportunity to do sysadmin work and there will be at least one or two guru-sysadmins from which you can learn a ton if you cultivate the relationship. It will also give you the freedom to explore that is rarely available at a "real" job where deadlines and such are much more restricting.
Also, it will help to mitigate costs.
While you are in college, make the most of it and take the broadest range of courses that you can. Many nerds go to college and ignore the humanities and even a lot of the scienes because they think "why will I ever need that?" Well, you never know what you are going to need and the more you know, the more able you will be in this life and the large the pool of potential employers will be too.
College is for learning three things - 1) Learning how to learn, 2) Learning vocational stuff, 3) Learning about the world in general. Make sure you participate in all three kinds of learning.
If you don't go to college, it is a lot easier to end up as a "one trick pony" and right now, people are averaging about 6 different careers (not just employers, actual different careers) in a lifetime and the rate of change is only accelerating. Without the exposure and cachet that a college degree brings you, it will be much harder (not impossible, just harder) to change yourself when the circumstances call for changing.
Meanwhile, don't believe those people who tell you college is expensive. Go to a public school in state, which should qualify you for much reduced tuition. If it is in your home town, just keep living with the parents while you do it. If it is out of town then as soon as you are able, move off-campus and get a roommate or three. If you haven't already, you should be applying for every kind of scholarship and student loan you can find, especially local, community based ones where the competition is often a lot less.
Oh, and finally - the best sysadmins are programmers. There are roughly three kinds of sysadmins - non-programmers who have to struggle to even write a script and even perl is mostly out of their reach - application programmers who have converted and are easily capable of whipping up a script or bit of C-code to fix some problem that would take the first category days or weeks to do - and last there are kernel programmers who have converted and not only can they write code, they also understand what is going on "underneath the hood" and thus are excellent at diagnosing OS problems and fixing things that might otherwise go unfixed and just suffered with in the hands of the first two classes of sysadmins, plus they have a better grip on "the way things ought to work" because they understand the mechanisms involved.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
First, like many already said, you don't really know what you want to do yet (trust me, you don't. I changed career plans 4-5 times from HS Senior to College Grad with 1-2 years exp). Take a variety of classes and see what interests you outside of Sysadmining. Second, the degree helps, even if it's unrelated to your job. A year ago, I moved from being a contractor to a company to being a full fledged employee. My manager (then and now) insisted that I put my college degrees on my resume even if they had nothing to do with my current work. He pointed out that it will affect my salary. Truth be told, I don't know why he thought I'd leave them off (BBA+MBA). Finally, a degree will give you a more rounded view of the work you do. A CS degree (or CIS) can give you knowledge about aspects of the field outside if SA. A biz degree (my choice) will help you with the managerial/biz process functions.
BTW, I did end up using my biz degrees after I was hired. We started up a new service offering for the contract I'm on. I filled the roll of tech engineer and biz analyst. It was an interesting task. I probably would've been lost without the education.
Chris
forget college. you will never learn anything about systems administration in any typical operations maganement or info tech degrees. i know. get paid now while getting expereience and earning certifications by making companies pay for you classes, test, etc. you can always go back to school. capitalize on your real world opportunities now.
I would do both if I were you. Work full time and go to school at night. A college degree will certainly be helpful to you as well as provide some good social experience away from a career. I would actually suggest getting a degree which is seperate from technology. I mean, you already know most of it and for anything else you have man pages :) I for one, have worked in technology and am getting a degree in business so that I can have some options later on if i want them. You never know what direction your life might take. In 10 years you might decide being a SysAdmin isnt what you want to do anymore. It is at those points that having a degree, and especially a degree as flexible as business, comes in handy.
F******* LOUDER! I CAN'T HEAR YOU! --Ozzy Osbourne
I didn't think college was the brightest idea so I put it off. When I finially decided to get serious it was 5 years before I was done. Back then times were good. I graduated just in time to see the market collapse.
Now that times are bad it's the BEST time to get educated. Sit out the slump, work you but off to get good grades.
But what about the resume you ask? A resume is only good if you constantly work your but off to keep up with tech, be it software or hardware. A college degree is something you can put on your shelf for 10 years and not worry about. It's just THERE. No one can take it away from you.
Lots of computer people (programmers, engineers, sys-admins) don't do this for their whole lives, when that time comes a degree is going to be one of the best investements of your life. It will help keep you from getting locked in to one type of job.
The following may be repeats of other posts:
When I started going I had lots of friends who were "boot strapped" programmers who seemed to have godlike powers to me. While they still do have pretty good skills NONE of them have the versatility that I do when it comes to algorithmic desgine. I learned some hard stuff in school like Calculus, discreet math, probability curves etc etc... that have direct, high level, application to the programming process. These are skills a programmer should have. My friends don't. Now they're all talking about going back to get a degree (but they want it in things like physics etc because they're already getting burnt)
Hop this helps
Simply put, tertiary education is one of the biggest dividing lines in the social strata.
A degree (as opposed to a certification) opens up oportunities to work at a high level in successful companies.
Do you think IBM global services, Deloitte, Accenture etc hire people without degrees? What do you think professional services means?
What about more technical jobs? Take a look at R&D at Cisco, Lucent etc; people working there have usually got postgrad degrees.
The choice is yours.
You can work tech support lines and make little VB script programs (or whatever) without a real education.
Alternatively, you can get a degree and be involved in making decisions that actually make a difference to the bigger picture.
Remember, real education gives you tools; technical certifications give you knowledge.
Here's the perspective from twenty years down the road:
Of course you should go to college. That doesn't mean you should go to college right now.
College can teach you about a lot of useful things. It probably won't teach you how to be a system administrator, but believe me, as cool as a sysadmin gig sounds now, you won't want to do the same damn thing for the next forty to fifty years. Lack of education might not be a barrier to getting a job, but it can be a real barrier to advancing your career, which you will want to do sooner or later.
College can teach you skills that you can take to any job, and that you will need to have an enjoyable life--how to think, how to write, how to figure stuff out for yourself. If you live on campus, you will also learn social skills. You might also have the opportunity to study abroad, which is a lot of fun. Japan is really a geek paradise.
Having said that, I think a lot of people rush straight into college from high school. I did, and I regret it now. A lot of what you get out of school depends on the maturity that you bring with you, and you can grow up a lot working for a living full time. Also, if you save your money before college, you won't get into debt (which will give you more freedom later) and college will be more comfortable if you have money to spend. The girls will like you, Girls_don't_like_me, if you're old enough to buy alcohol and have the money to pay for it. You'll get better financial aid if you're supporting yourself, anyway.
In any case, it's probably too late to get into a good school this year if you're about to graduate. Take a year or two, put all the money you can in the bank, and apply to the best possible school you can.
I couldn't mod, so I thought I'd comment on this post, number by number
1) This is the single biggest problem both for people who want to and don't want to go to college... they think they know what they want to do with the rest of their lives. When I left high school, I was *sure* I was going to work in computers... after one semester, I changed from a CS major to an English major. And I ended up working with computers after all. I finish my degree in December, but it does nothing practical for my profession, unless I get into technical writing.
2) The other nice thing about college is that if you *do* have some experience, getting an on-campus tech job can be a breeze. That's how I got started.
3) One of the reasons I'm staying in school is that for most of the higher-level positions at the Uni, they want a degree... in anything. My advice has always been (at least for the tech field) that you should be *educated* in whatever field interests you, but be trained in the fields needed for the job market. This isn't nursing or architecture... you really can "learn as you go" with IT.
4) Indeed, working as a sysadmin (or low-level NOC employee) at your university is great, because they'll even pay for part of your education.
Really, you should never go to college with the explicit purpose of "this will help my future career"... you'll get bored with it fast. It happened to a lot of people I know, including myself. There's nothing that says you can't work and go to school at the same time... especially if you work at the University, where they're much more likely to be flexible with your schedule.
A final note. I'm a strong opponent of certifications mainly because they take all of the soul out of education. Education is not just about acquiring facts: it's about learning how to think, how to process ideas, and how to interact with other people. The ancient greeks believe that education was the greatest enrichment life could have, and I tend to agree with them. Always remember that any old idiot can get a certification, but it takes a degree of steadfastness and purpose to get a college degree, and employers know that.
Some advice from a person who has been programming professionally since high-school: Go to college. I can't tell you how important it is. If you are anything like me, you will want to wait as long as possible before you join the corporate world. If you thought high-school was bad... just wait for manditory relaxed fridays and company barbecues. On the other hand, college is great. It's nothing at all like high-school (unless you go to a crappy school like nyu...). The professors all have PhDs, you only have to go to a class if you want to, and when you do, the professors treat you with respect (compare all three to your high-school experience...). Looking back, I barely learned anything in all my years of public school compared to what I've learned in college. Plus, having computer skills can get you into some really cool research.
If I can chalk this down to one simple take-home message: Go to college. It is worth it for at least the experience, let alone the amount you will learn (if you apply yourself).
When I got laid off from my computing job in early 2001, my brother helped me get signed on.
On my first night, the bull knocked me headfirst into a barricade. I had to have steel rods inserted into my neck which have restricted my mobility. But I've never looked back since then.
Some of the best sysadmins that I have encountered in my career are those who have a B.Eng. in Computer Engineering. In my opinion, what makes a sysadmin good at his or her trade is if he or she has a solid undertanding of how computers work and knows how to approach a problem. Studying computer engineering will teach you both.
so sue me :)
If you have a great skillset now and have connections, you can bypass college. Collegiate CS is not all it's cracked up to be -- I went to school for a different subject and am considered an equal with the BS students, at this office anyway. However, it is much easier to get a high base salary or pick up a job with another company if you have that degree, even an associates degree, behind you. It takes a lot of "equivalent experience" (say, five years or so) to equal that in the mind of HR folks.
If you ever intend to be an architect/manager/director/CIO, college will definitely be a boost and may be your only choice, unless you can get in good with a hot startup.
As for your career path...IT and programming are so vastly different in both mood and expectation that I wish they wouldn't get lumped together -- even though their daily tasks may be similar. Programmers answer to managers, but IT folks most often answer to everybody. Programmers are expected to do more problem solving, wheras IT folks are expected to do more solution implementation. And in my opinion, the path that's best for you depends on your outlook on life. Are you a patient optimist with a fervor for new technology? You should program. Are you a solution minded pessimist with a get-it-done attitude? You should be IT. Your outlook is the key to success in computing.
Hey freaks: now you're ju
1)you'll gain more practical skills then a cert. course
2)you'll learn better theoretical skills
3)job market sucks. that anybody with a heartbeat era of computers is over.
4)you'll have an opportunity to learn to be social on a adult level. this is incredible valuable for system admins, who will ocme in contact with pweople at every level of managment
5)you'll get the opportunity to be with people who have the same views as you.
6)you'll get the opportunity to be with people who have different views then you, and you'll have to learn to rationally counter a discussion, and learn how to take input and to form your own ideas.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Subject says it all....
Got Code?
Without repeating the details already posted, go the college route. I do have a slightly different twist on things however. if you are really good at computers, DON'T go the CS route.
... you can get that out of books. What you learn is thinking processes and learn alternate points of view from your own. The parchment then is extremely valuable for kicking off your carreer.
... which brings up an entirely different tangent that we will stay away from.
In my opinion computers are just tools. I would learn the details of another field that you are interested in and then use your computing prowess to solve problems in that industry that your peers will be clueless in.
I started my own consulting company almost a decade ago, however in college I think that I only had one CS course. My undergrad was in Physics and I grabbed two Masters (MBA & Master of Info. Management). These degrees have openned doors to upper level management and given me an understanding of the thinking processes in business that has allowed me to go places that my network/programing skills would never have done.
Contrary to popoular opinion, you don't really go to college to learn details
As for your question concerning certifications. I used to teach certification classes for IBM.
Certifications are great for proving to people who do not know you, that you know 'something'. I have not seriously chased after a certification for about six years. Since I now have a track record, my clients that know me couldn't care less if I had a piece of paper saying that I know something. I'll still perform problem determination on new environments faster than most new paper techies. (Being fair, once the issue/problem is found they can probably fix it faster than I can research the fix).
So, yes, go to college, but if you already know computers and are comfortable with them learn another discipline (since most of the technology that you learn in CS will be toast in a few years) and get a certification to prove that you in fact spell PC, TCP/IP, and LAN.
Good luck. The world is yours!!
Don't get me wrong, it's comforting to be well paid, but there are a lot of reasons to go to college that have nothing to do with the degree.
College is a whole different life style. Living in the dorms for a few years forces you to make friends. Friends that you live with once you get an apartment and friends that you stay in contact with after graduation. Friends that have jobs and contacts all over the country which can get you in the door faster than any amount of experience or any number of degrees.
It's not about what you know all the time. Who you know is really important as well.
Regardless.. $20k of debt is very little to pay for the amount of fun I had in those 4.5 years. It was a blast. You can't have that kind of fun if you have to be at a job the next morning.
hey, bottom line is that you can spend the rest of your days as a SysAdmin, but without out college you still will never get the fullfillment that comes from being able to mess around, have fun with friends, meet interesting people, sleep during lectures, meet chicks that actually dont hate you..AND most importantly, you will learn about who you are, and what EXACTLY you want in life...right now your 17/18 and you still have a LOT of time before you have to make a decision about this stuff...my friend for instance went to Ga Tech for CS and 4 years later came out with a degree in History from Emory U! So give yourself the 4 years to hammer out the best gameplan for you, and dont jump into things you just might regret one day. my 2 pesos
Of course, I work at a college, so I might be a little biased. Anyhoo, you might be really good, but there are definately things you don't know. College is a good way to expand your knowledge. I know some people who are seriously above the curve in computer skills, and all of them benefited from college. And realistically, if you can get a part time tech job (especially in the CS department at the school) you will get almost as much practacle experience as if you had gone straight to working. I don't know what exactly you're looking at, but respect might be another good reason to go to college. Being just out of high school you aren't likely to get much respect from business people. (I won't say that's the way it should be, but it's definately the way it it) A few years and a degree will get you a lot of credibility in the eyes of those above you. It's better than spending those four years struggling to prove you're as good as you are at your job.
Science may someday discover what faith has always known.
Go for college man - it means VOLUMES on your CV (resume).
I went to school, ended up getting a BA in Psychology. Not that I wanted to DO anything in Psych when I graduated, but I really enjoyed the classes. Wasn't thinking with my career cap on I guess. Worked in the campus computer labs for my work study cash and learned how to deal with users there.
Programming classes did nothing but annoy me, so I didn't take that route. When I graduated, my degree and experience was enough to get me in the door doing telephone tech support for an MS outsourcer (yep, we were busy). Four years and a SysAdmin job pass and now I'm the IT Manager at an accounting firm. Who knew?
It's hard to say where you'll end up from today, but you gotta keep your options open. College will do that for you. Build networking (people) skills in school and use those connections to get you the job finally decide you want when you graduate.
Best of luck...
I went to college, got my computer science degree. More importantly I worked at the university as a student sysadmin. Pick a big school with a large computing infrastructure and make it a goal to get a job working for the university as a student sysadmin. You'll learn as much from your job as you do from your classes. When I graduated I had a few years of sysadmin experience and a degree and I got a job right away and now I'm a director of MIS. I'd still be a staff admin without that degree. Remember that a degree will help you move up within organizations.
Don't discount the experience--college is pretty fun. Meet some new people, find yourself a girlfreind, go to some parties, some football games, throw a few back, you'll have a great time.
That's how I did it and I'd do it that way again. This is the easiest time in your life to go to college, it will only be more complicated down the road.
Good luck!
a billion other people have already posted so you probably wont read this but
.. i know i have, i'm looking at degrees in other things entirely non-tech related becuase they are more stable..
I was you 4 years ago
and I chose the non-college path
and let me tell you I wish I hadn't
long story and several certs later, I have MCSE/A+/Network+ and CompUSA won't even call me back for a shitty tech job fixing their piece of shit compaqs.. i'm going for a ccna shortly which might help, but in teh areas i've lived in (indy/cinci) the IT recession has hit hard.. i'm 22 and a 19 web dev friend of mine pulling $50k/yr w/o a degree (mcse/a+/net+) got fired several times becuase of budget cutting (and the fact he was the youngest)
i have been in and out of college several times and have a few hours, if i had the money i would go back immediately, a degree in *anything* is better than none at all
and you might want to reconsider IT as it continues to get worse ("outsourcing" all our jobs to "cut costs")
having a huge salary is great, but only if you're around long enough to collect it
- Cunnilingus Future success is often dependent on the success and happiness of one's personal life. If you can't do this right, don't expect a fulfilling personal life.
-
Chemistry Most people would call this "learning how to drink", but I think that's just a subset. Its important to learn what are the right combinations and quantities of booze and drugs to take, and more imporantly, how to function before, during, and after consumption. You won't accomplish much in life if you can't work with a hangover or don't know what or how much to take or not take to prevent one.
These are two of the biggest lessons I learned in college. I learned a bunch of other crap about politics, math, history and science, but its kind of hazy and not very applicable most of the time to my full-time job managing a computer network.I was very much in the same position that this person is in now. I graduated from high school in 1998 and went to college mostly at the urging of my teachers, friends, and family. There is probably no doubt that in the long run going to college is the better choice. I can't disagree with the arguement that you can learn far more about the field you're interested in by picking up some books and teaching yourself. Where I went to college, I could have taught many of the courses (they actually want me to get my MSCIS there and come back and teach). Being in that situation, I found that I was often hindered by the lack of interest that my classmates showed in the subject matter, and that made it very discouraging and difficult to learn what there was to learn.
:)
However, it's hard to sit here and say that as a programmer (in my case) or as a system administrator (of which i have one as a colleague who did not attend college) that you can live in a technology vacuum and simply learn what there is to know about your field, whether it be network architecture or client-server development. Wherever you work in the future you will be faced with decisions that call on skills greater than your ability to tie in a VPN to a load-balanced web server farm. A good understanding of business skills will be critical to your career in the long run if you ever want to pursue vertical movement within an organization.
You don't have to go to Harvard. A BS is a BS for most people in IT. If you can find a school where your wallet won't suffer and you'll have the time to work on improving your skillset on your own time - then I would say go for that option. You'll earn larger salaries and open the doors for many more opportunities down the road.
PS. Don't be afraid to use your skillset to convince employers to pay for part or all of you education, either!
my advice is to go to school. not because you need it for your career, but, you're young and should enjoy yourself, take some art classes, meet some people and enjoy yourself while you can, servers will wait for you, besides with the market being so bouncy, you really don't know how stable of a job you might be able to get, i'm stuck in this industry, but if i could do it all over again, i'd go to law school, and do this for fun!
...There's nothing wrong with Southern California that a rise in the ocean level wouldn't cure...
I've been working with many unices since the early 1990's and I dropped out of school at 18 without finishing my studies. Why? Mainly because I don't respect authorities, and had many major arguments with the teachers. Eventually I quit.
After that I've been through a hell trying to document my competence. Even though I've been programming since 1983 and working with UNIX since 1990, the employers (at least over here in Norway) are having some major issues with computer people without a competence.
Go to college and get your education. It may suck at the time being, but I promise you that it will pay back - both when you apply for a job and on your paycheck.
Trust me.
-skurk
www.6502asm.com - Code 6502 assembly or.. DIE!!
I've been there, didn't quite know what I wanted to do except something with computers when I went into college. The school I attended has no courses geared towards systems administration, and left after completing all but 4 of the comp sci courses and *none* of my "Gen Ed" requirements, which I've always felt were a waste of my time... a computer isn't going to "feel" one way or another, why do I need psychology? I know, "more rounded person", yadda yadda yadda.
Anyway, while there I started working for the networking folks at the university, and after one semester of working there realized that this was what I wanted to do. I venture to say I learned more from the 4 semesters of work than the 6 semesters of classes, quite possibly because I retain things better if I'm actually interested in the content. Left there when I left school (funny thing, student workers have to be students to work there) and picked up a job in another university as their full-time sysadmin.
Do I recommend you skip school? Not really, because not everyone's like me, you might enjoy the classes and some of the BS they put you through for a BS, and you might even discover that you prefer being an ADA junkie than a cable jockey. But quickly find out about the IT department there, and how to get a job. Most places have a work-study program, take advantage of it. Even if you have to start at the helpdesk, it's a foot in the door, get to know the Gurus and see where you can help out. Don't be afraid that places are going to turn their nose up at you if you don't have a degree; some will, yes, but do you want to work for that kind of shortsighted company?
As a somewhat related note, if you love to learn about the sysadminning aspects, and want to get a job where you can be a BOFH as well as keep up with new technology and expanding demands, look for jobs at university IT departments (either campus-wide or departmental, like I am). They're usually the type that not only likes it when their computers work, but like to see their admins researching new ideas and playing with new technology which might benefit them at the same time. Quite a few admins I know that work in the private sector are almost shunned for wanting to learn something new that falls just outside their specified job description ("You work the mail servers, don't worry about SANs.")
YMMV. "But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong. --Dennis Miller"
Three dits, four dits, two dits, dah!
Radio, radio, rah rah rah!
Having completed highschool and taken a year of vacation then 2 years of a CS degree at a local college the decision I made was to drop out and get on with life.
Since then I have gone through 8 jobs and from helpdesk support to Senior System Administrator in a mixed environment for 6+ years now. However to get where I am it has taken almost 80% of my non paid time to get and keep up to date on current technology. With this much time dedicated to systems related endeavors it has definetly lost some of its charm.
In hindsight colledge provides a time and an environment to make the learning and maintenance of knowledge the specific focus while also providing time to aquire a part time job in which you can gain the experience necessary to step into a higher responsibility position. Another benifit of this method is that financial aid and grants are available which greatly reduces the longterm cost of learning.
Almost all of the technology worth learning to become very competitive and useful to the industry are available through the internet and higher learning institutions now. This being the case college is a great way of accelerating the not soo enjoyable parts of a technology career while providing some fun and flexibility along the way that I have found to be sparse in the full time employment market.
Do what you're excited about and interested
in right now. If you're skeptical about
the value of college, then get the most
interesting job you can now, and give it a
try for a while. There's nothing wrong with
putting off college for a few years. You'll
make better use of your time there if you
already know from the real world what value it
will or won't have for you.
I personally look at several things when I am hiring people in the IT world. First, can you do the job... Many people come out of college and can't do what you want them to. I would hire a technically trained person with the skills I need over a college educated person without. Second, what experience do you have... If I can make a call and find out that you really do know what you say you do, that means more to me than a degree. Certifications help in this department quite a bit. I went to college and wasted my time and money on it. I certainly am an advocate of higher education, but don't waste your time taking classes that will never benefit you.
"Keep on Tuxin"
Being a Canadian, I'm not sure what you mean by College. Up here in the great white north, there are two forms of post secondary education. Your College, and your University. The former being much cheaper and more of a practical education.
I've just finished my third term in college, in a program called Computer Systems Technician, and I'm now on a Co-op placement.
I've also been to University and found that the courses offered in such a system aren't right for the career path I would like top follow, IE: Sys Admin.
IMO college is a much better choice to make especially if you're good enough to get into a co-op program where you'll be placed in a related job before you graduate.
Just something to think about.
I disagree with all of these College loving guys. Straight out of high school in 1998 I started in the tech industry. Hell, I very nearly didn't finish high school because I was working online when I should have been at school.
Through 3.. yes 3 dot com failures I still have my job, the pay is good and I've not looked back and wished I had done something else with my time. Some day I may consider going to school if I have a complete career change in mind.
I know lots of people who are out on their duffs and have degrees. In today's world, it's all about who you know, not what you know. I'd say networking and making business contacts is as valuable or even more valuable than that degree.
Ok, I'd like to do a little comparison if I may, strictly for your benifit. I'm a 27 year old software engineer. I work for Arch Wireless and I make in the neighborhood of 60k yearly. I also have little or no college, 12 hours to be exact. *I* find it extremely hard to get an interview due to this fact. Personally, I know that college is not what it takes to make your Kung Foo, or Script Foo as the case may be, strong. However, what you have to understand is that there are two kinds of managers out there that will be hiring you; technical and non-technical. Unfortunately for those of us who are "un-educated", non-technical managers do not realize the above stated fact. Furthermore, the vast majority of managers, in my experience, are non-technical. I'm stuck in a dead end job mostly because I don't have a degree. Let me speak to you some wisdom, if I had a degree in *underwater basket weaving* it would help, and so much the better if my degree was computer related. Do yourself a favor, go to college, get some kind of degree, I would recommend general computer science. If you don't you will most likely kick yourself for it later. When the bills start pouring in you will not have time to go back and get a degree. Trust me on this one.
"current conditions notwithstanding" my ass. Current conditions /always/ matter - and setting aside the whole paper vs. experience thing, right nwo the best thing to do is go to college.
It doesn't really matter what you take, just get some fancy papers. When there's a market upswing, *then* you can decide whether to stay in college or to start a career because you'll have that option then. Right now your options are college or a crappy start to a career with little job security.
I'm not saying that there aren't good jobs otu there (I have one myself), but with neither experience nor papers and facing the competition of all those hungry experienced and paper'd unemployed SysAdmins, you'll fare much better 9and eat more regularily) in college.
"The purpose of argument is to change the nature of truth." -- Bene Gesserit Precept
Probably speaking from experience rather than thinking he is god.
FWIW:
I look back on my teenage years when I thought I knew exactly what I wanted to do, but now that I am older my plans have changed.
Getting a degree has helped me make a career change because I learned how to learn. If my present career craps out, I know I can make another change.
I forget...are we at war with Eurasia or East Asia?
I have met few college educated people that were truly good computer sciences. Not saying there aren't any, but I have not met them. My last job, there were 8 of us in the IS dept. Not one had a college degree, and they were all really good. The job before that was 50/50 and all the people with degrees sucked...
I had a full time job out of high school, and had been working part time in computers since 16. At the end of my summer after high school, I quit my job and took a year+1/2 at the U of M. I found the stuff they were teaching had no basis in the real world. So I quit that and went back to working. I can honestly say I wish I did not waste 1.5 years at college. I am doing way better than most people my age I know that do have college degrees. I may finish college one day, but I don't think it is a prereq to being successful. Much of what you learn in college can be learned just as effectively in the real world, plus then you wont have huge student loans to pay off.
this is not intended as a troll or flamebait.
I am 32 now and I took the non-college route. I got out of high-school and eventually worked my way into a sys-admin position by teaching myself. I have much more experience than my friends with degrees. But, I have found that the diploma is a sticking point when I interview for new jobs or send out my resume. I know it's stupid. But, employers would rather see a 4-year degree in "Underwater Basket Weaving" than a solid history of 10 years of direct experience sometimes. I have about 120 credits from various junior colleges and I transferred them to the Univeristy of Phoenix. I am taking online classes now and plan to get my degree in another year or so. It is a tough decision to make. But, unless our society does a 180 degree turn-about in the next decade -- you will face discrimination because you didn't get the degee. I know it's stupid to base a decision on a piece of paper and you know it's stupid too. But, the people who are hiring feel that it is a requirement. If you and another guy are up for the same position. You both have the same certifications. But, he has a degree and you don't --- he will get the job.
If you don't you'll miss out on...
1) Incredible parties
2) Young women/men eager to explore
3) Doing drugs and being able to blame it on "youth" later on in life.
4) Rubbing elbows with some smart, talented people it your chosen field.
Go to college. With all the money that is floating around in scholoarships and grants, the financial obligation is minimum. There are grants, whose qualifications are that you have natural red hair! No shit, man. When people say they can't afford college, they are saying they don't want to search for free money.
Don't jump into a career. You have the rest of your life to work on that. Have some fun and get a nifty piece of paper that HR types can use to judge your worth. You wont be able to experience it later in life because it is just not the same.
Remember, You are unique...just like everyone else.
Just after high school I started working in a small company. I had the chance to learn a lot about networking, linux, perl and had nice projects to work on. Now, 1.5 year later, I don't like doing the job any more. I had a great time there but now I am a litle bit bored.
I am happy I did not choose to go to college. Because probably after a few years, I would come to the same conclusion as now and I lost some years.
After working for some time I know much better what I want to study and do the rest of my life. And it's something completly different then being sysadmin.
If you get a job, be sure you have experienced colleges who want to learn you the job. If you have the opportunity when doing an interview try talking to the techs about the job.
Sorry for my bad English...
Go to college to learn about lititure, history, science, politics, AND computers. Going to college means that for several years you will be within a five minute walk of someone who can answer almost any question you have. You will be surronded by people who are experts in fields you did not even know existed! All this in addition to getting an education in computers is why you should go to college. Not just to get a job.
I'm going to talk about DB certifications, because that interests me the most.
Right now, basic IBM DB2 certification is free of charge. The program isn't very well-organized (compared to Oracle OCP), but you can't argue with the cost. It will also get you some basic SQL skills.
The free qualifier is only available in June, August, October, and November of this year. Information on it is available at http://certify.torolab.ibm.com.
Perhaps more important than this, however, is that both IBM and Oracle have programs for integrating their certs into college courses (Oracle exams are even half-price for students, IIR). The URLs for their academic sites are:
http://oai.oracle.com/
http:///www-3.ibm.com/software/data/highered/
Other good certification websites:
http://suned.sun.com
http://www.jcert.org
http://www.cisco.com
What I recommend to you is that you demand that your institution of higher learning participate in vendor partnership programs such as these. Such partnerships a)indicate that the institution is interested in imparting practical and industry-relevant experience to you, and b)ensure you of a higher starting salary than those unfortunate individuals attending more institutions with less focus on your needs (and more on the ease of their tenured professors).
I might especially recommend JCert. If your college teaches Java, they ought not to be afraid to have graduates from their programs independently certified. Any hesitation on this point belies a lack of faith in the quality of their own instruction.
This sort of thing is new ground for most schools, and I think if your school is willing to at least let you work these certs as independent study, then they should still be considered. However, I've seen a few cases now where administration stonewalls (University of Iowa), even though they are a member of the program. You might think about making your entire tech-elective track nothing but certs.
So go for the campus tour, nod and smile at their spiel, then negotiate hard and in writing that these certs will be accepted as tech electives.
And don't be afraid to remind them that the ROI for certs is far greater than for college tuition in the short and even medium term.
These are the three things to consider in your situation. College seems to be a good option, but you have to pick the right major. At my school [uiuc.edu], the CS program is purely software development. There is no instruction in shell scripting, Perl, or anything except Java (intro course) and C/C++. This does not provide a good background for a sysadmin by itself.
OTOH, we have the NCSA [ncsa.uiuc.edu] here, which provides many great opportunities. They don't offer a lot of jobs for students, but if you keep a close watch on the job listings, you can find one. I'm working on a project [oscar.sf.net] learning a lot about real sysadmin tasks, cluster admin, and software development. All this while learning how to really program in shell and Perl better than any CS class here ever taught me any other language.
Take my advice: go to college and work while you're there.
I have a BA in History(!) and my A+ and Server+, with my MCSA in the works, and plans for Network+, Linux+ and RHCE down the road. Any degree on your resume will usually give you a notch or you above candidates without, more reliably than a certification. A degree says that not only do you know your stuff, but you can focus on a project for an extended period and have a certain level of competency at basic work-type skills, i.e. the English language, something many people lack, or business, or critical thinking. Certifications give a picture of you as an IT professional, but a degree says something about your life skills and what type of an employee you can become.
You are not the customer.
I'm sure both are viable options... I'm makin a damn good salary right now working on solaris boxes that I had no formal training for. (Years and years of being a geek DOES pay off). Sure, having a college degree may have helped me get this job, but my demonstration of skills and CONFIDENCE IN MYSELF got me where I wanted to be. College can't really provide the level of knowledge you will need for a true sys-admin job (at least, they won't give you the specifics). Most of that comes from reading, cert classes, and the holy grail of any realy sysadmins - SEARCH ENGINES! (Thank the electron gods for google) Just my take on it all....College was fun for the sex and drugs, but got boring after a year... "What do you mean I can't test out?"
I didn't, and I'm doing ok. (Well, better than ok.) But most of that was cause I was lucky.
I don't say this purely from a professional perspective, but from a social one. I would have rather spent my late teens and early 20's going to class and meeting chicks than working in a group home or unloading trucks on the overnight shift.
There are still plenty of places where you can do just fine without a degree. And those places won't really go away 100%.
But, a degree gives you a (small) edge, and you might as well party and get laid while you can. It's a whole lot harder to be a professional loafer when you're working 50 hours a week than it is to be one when you spend 15 hours a week in class, and maybe, that much on homework.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
I went to university (computer systems engineering) and started doing work in that field after my second year of university. I found it changed my approach to many classes so that I could really focus on the parts that I thought were relavant... while also keeping up enough with the other stuff to keep the marks up :)
I probably could of stopped going to school and worked full-time but the company was very accomodating of my schedule and they encouraged me to finish my degree. Working and going to school full-time also teaches you how to manage your schedule well... especially if you want to maintain some semblance of a social life.
Plus in the event that jobs become tight, the guy with the degree will have an edge given similar work experience. You learn about stuff that doesn't seem necessary at the time but can be useful at surprising times in your future.
------
Objects in Mirror are Losing!
Go to college, have fun, go to football games, get drunk, and get laid. You have the rest of your life to be a gear in the machine.
Berto
You can always be a Sys Admin in the military. Some people will tell you that the pay is better on the outside but speaking as a Sys Admin in the Air Force, I can tell you that I live comfortably and have a huge benifits package.
I think the job market right now is pretty competitive and if you don't have a degree you either won't get hired or you end up with a lower salary. In the military not only will they train you in all the latest technology, but they will also (starting 1 Oct 02) pay for 100% of your tuition.
This means that in 4 years with the military you can get lots of training/experience, get your degree, and have a very good resume when the job market opens back up.
I should mention that the military gets 30 days paid vacation per year? Try finding a job with that in the civilian sector.
Some days I get the sinking feeling Orwell was an optimist.
I would additionally get certified in whatever field you intend to go into. Networking, get Cisco, UNIX, get Sun or HP cert, Windows, get MCSE.
Once you've accomplished that, do your best to stay on top of your game. That's what makes you more marketable and more desirable than the next guy.
Just as an example...I have two good industry certs already, and some very good experience. I plan on getting a new cert this year, then going back to college at night next year to finish up my degree just for my own well being, but I also know that the degree will do nothing but help next time I'm job hunting.
Hope that helps you.
Aaron
Having a degree is a good thing in many places. It'll never hurt to have that degree, but there are cases that it will hurt if you don't.
Go to college! It truthfully will make you better and more rounded... Thinking and learning regardless of how much money it can get you is one of the most fulfilling experiences people can have, with the right attitude... Sure you can get it from reading, but it's just not the same... and trust me you cant go by high school experince to know i am full of shit.
I finished up Carnegie Mellon University (CMU) one year ago. This post is based on my experience there.
If you go to college go for the beer and the bitches. If you go for something else then within the first week of school you'll find out that faculty is there to do research and practical learning is your responsibilty. You will learn theoretical nonsense like the wearisome programming language called ML (wearisome not only because its hackneyed but also because it lacks relevance).
You will also end up with many tens of thousands of dollars worth of debt. I regret deeply not taking a $17/hr job I had coming out of high school.
The main reason is that I now know finance. I have recently been making my money grow and expect to have the freedom to retire within 10 years. If I didn't go to college that would have been four years earlier.
In short: Learn on your own (cause in college you will have to anyway). Do NOT splurge your money! By the time your fellow HS grads are finishing college you can point at their poor asses and laugh. Oh yes and girls will like you better too cause you'll have money. If you have trouble finding them in your neigbourhood just crusie past a college or highschool.
I am incredibly sincere about this.
Go to college, get the paper (and intern or something similar while going to college, so you have SOME experience).
Sure college wont teach you some of the new technologies, or languages, but youre not there for that, you're there to get a piece of paper.
Maybe back before the net bubble burst, not getting a degree was ok, but now, if you dont have paper, you dont have a job.
Dont be a worthless 30-something with no paper and a lot of experience, be a 30-something with a degree and experience and make 80k+ and not unemployment.
Trust me i know, i dropped out of college to ride the net wave, and now im having to go back and get my degree so i can get a 'real job' now.
Was it worth riding the net wave? Hell no! Im broke now, and burned by every company i worked for.
Go to college, but skip the CS training. You
probably know that stuff already. Instead, get
a good liberal arts degree. History, Math,
English, Fine Arts, whatever interests you.
Learn about the world and about people.
If he actually thinks hes going to make a career thats going to last more than 10 years as a system admin, hes going to be wrong, VERY wrong.
Eventually servers will maintain themselves, lets not forget the system admin market is not in demand and hes not going to get paid a decent wage for much longer.
What he should do is go to college, get a Good 4 year degree, maybe work as a system admin via intership, Then when he graduates from college he can continue on as a Sys Admin.
He needs to get his degree so he can adapt to the times, when the time comes, Hes going to have to get a new job, wheres he going to go 11 years from now? or 20? Does he really want to go to college at age 30? By then he'll be far behind.
Look, you have to build your nest egg as soon as possible, that is
A. If you want to retire ever.
B. If you want to have kids.
C. If you want a house, car, or anything.
He needs a degree to have a stable career, he can get a job with just a diploma, they'll hire him as a sys admin, it will be his job, but when they dont need him anymore, hes gone, jobless.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
I started at Ithaca College enrolled in a CS degree. I didn't like the classes because I felt there wasn't very much self expression in alegebraically proving algorithms correct to infinity. So I switched to something I liked, philosophy. Philosophy was where I naturally did well and it fed my desire to approach the world in a logical way. Of course it finally disembowled that approach, but the journey was full of good times, hard concepts, and radically different ways of explaining "The Way Things Are". Well, second semester senior year at the start of 1998 I came to the sudden realization that philosophy doesn't really pay the bills in the short term and I had to acknowledge my abilities in the field and the realities of the current job market (at the time Universities realized that the philosophy departments were very male heavey and were agressively hiring women, good for women in the field, bad for me). My friend that had graduated the year before me though went to work for a local ISP.He basically said "Hey, you like the internet, why don't you come and work here, learn this web/email/networking thingy and you'll be set for life!?" (heh) So I did and worked my tail off for a year and a half at one of the worst paying, poorly cooled (summer temps were 86degF), insanely run ISPs ever. But I learned ALOT and gor opportunities that I never would have been exposed to in a large organization. I started as a recptionist, ugh. I job hopped quite a bit and now I'm pretty well settled in as a Network Engineer at a publicly traded company. It wasn't easy, I had to do some pretty crazy stuff at pretty crazy times. Sometimes I had to do mind-numbing tasks for weeks on end. Now my opinion is highly regarded within the company and I make sure I take care of my responsibilities. The only certification I got was in 1999 I passed the CCNA. I did take a Network Design class at the local community college but was monumentally disappointed in the quality of the class. The most valuble attribute I have is an extremely methodical approach to quickly solving network problems, sort of like a bisection search. If that fails, I put myself in the packet's shoes and figure out where I'd go. So what's my advice? If you can, go to college. It's one hell of a good time and you have the opportunity to learn things about yourself that, if left to your own devices may never know (I discovered I enjoyed A/V classes and Art History). All that stuff about being a well rounded person is *NOT* smoke that liberal arts college's blow up your ass. It does help with communication and working with others, especially those you disagree with. Philosophy was excellent for teaching me to detach my feelings from my argument. I like the path I took but it may not be for everyone. Try concentrating on the journey, rather than the destination. Oh yeah, Good Luck (at some point you'll need it :))
This comment is based on my personal experience. YMMV, of course, but I strongly believe that if college is in reach (as it is for most people these days, at one level or another) that you should go. There are a couple of reasons for this, and I'll spell them out by responding to their counterpoints.
:)
Some people suggest that you can just go to college later in life. While it is technically possible to attend college later in life, the concept of college, unless it is one specifically geared at "continuing education," is engineered around the age bracket that most of its students fall in (18-23.) People who return to college later in life (as my Mother did) have a harder time adapting their experience back into a frame of reference built around a certain age group. College is undoubtedly harder the older you are, because the older you are, the further from the target demographic you are, and you will extract less value as a result. A college education, academically speaking, builds analytical skills and brings your cognition to a higher level. No matter what you study you will have a better understanding of the world from what you learn there. College, for most, is a place to grow, not only academically, but socially. When I came out of high school, I had a whole lot to learn about interacting with my fellow man, and college helped me learn that. I am a much better person thanks to college.
The next argument that people make is that techies make enough money with certifications that college is irrelevant. The truth of that matter is that not having a degree is a serious handicap in terms of career advancement. You will be shutting yourself out of a lot of opportunities if you choose to go into life without a degree. That's not to say there are no success stories for people without degrees, but that someone without a degree is going to have to work twice as hard to earn respect, twice as hard to advance their careers into the large salary range, and will be pretty much ruled out from the upper echelon of income unless they are a very fortunate entrepreneur.
Another thing people often assume is that you have to study in your chosen field in college. Not true. In fact, in Europe it is more common than not for someone to do something in the work place that is completely unrelated to what they studied in college. This highlights my earlier point about the non-academic learning that takes place in college.
Going to college at a young age is also a unique opportunity to exist in an environment where you can engage in "experience for its own sake." Which is a fancy way of saying that at no other time in your life is it going to be acceptable to prioritize activities like binge drinking every other day, experimenting with drugs, falling in love, protesting something, or generally doing whatever you damn well please while attending a few classes along the way. What I can remember of my college days, I will remember and cherish forever. I made some lifelong friends, participated in unique but virtually pointless activities, learned the sweet smell of success and the agony of defeat, all in four years.
And a final point to note is that if SysAdminning is really what you want to do, you can do it just as well with a degree as you could without one, and with one, you're likely to be a better asset, enjoy more opportunities for advancement, and be a more well-rounded person overall than if you don't. And never forget: Time is the currency of your life, and once you spend it you can never have it back, so make the most of it. Go to college.
This too shall pass.
Get the degree. You don't neccessarily have to have it but the HR people like it and it will keep people (like you parents) from bitching at you all the time. Believe me, I'm there right now. I'm a netadmin with certs but an incomplete degree. You also don't want to miss the college experience. It's worth it. I recommend getting an engineering degree. A EE can go anywhere and do almost any technical job. A CS changes from day to day. While your in college, you can probably get student sysadmin work with the college IT group. That's a nice stepping stone. Good luck.
If you can afford it, go. Get a degree in brewing beer, basket weaving, computer sciance, poetry! It does not matter that much. Of couse the ComSci comes in handy in your first few years out trying to land a job in the computer field.
The long and the short of it is, if you do not have a degree (in whatever) you will close off many many doors of opportunity!
~Sean
Certifications only show that you've been able to memorize answers from a practice test, they're no indication that you actually know what you're doing. Get a degree. It does not neccessarily show that you know what you're doing either... but it does show that you have the ability to achieve a goal that requires more commitment than a few MCRT (Microsoft Certified Reboot Technician) classes. That ability, and not neccessarily the knowledge associated with a degree, is very important to an employer. College gives you an opportunity to develop skills that you can't get living at home. It forces you to learn to discipline yourself, instead of hating your parents for doing so. Having this skill is also very important to an employer. Do you think I want to hire somebody who has to have their mom yell at them to get out of bed in the morning? Think of college as a "halfway house" to the real world. As a bonus, you'll make the best friends of your life.
And here is what I did.
I joined the military for the smallest amount of time that I could (2 years 19 Weeks), although that may not be in your options. Because of that, (I did non-computer related things in the military) I gained people skills, leadership, and all of the other things the military teaches you. I also got a six pack stomach, and a nice chest, and ladies dig that. I work now as a sysadmin, and go to school part time. Make good money (35k), get paid even more to go to school through the GI Bill (around 3k per semester) And I am only 22!
If you live in Illinois, Florida, or Texas, I believe, You get to go to a public school free, but you still reap the GI Bill Benifits.
I did simple math before I joined. 2 years making dirt pay,but when you add in what you will recieve from schooling, it makes good sense
My easy Math
where I could find the time to hone my system skills on my own (I did combat related jobs in the Army) and I did some side consulting work while I was in. You can even take CLEP tests for Free as well as other major tests (retake the ACT, SAT, ASE)
Blah Blah Blah.
Go do your post-secondary education.
First reason: There will never be a better time for it, and going back to school usually only gets harder as you get older.
Second reason: Post-secondary education will also give you the theoretical grounding behind your chosen field(s) of endeavour, which you will find extremely useful once you get out into the Real World[TM] and start doing work. After all, if you know your stuff, picking up tool skills is trivial. Case in point: I am a technical writer. Since I started working, I've used all that abstract stuff I learned in university in practical ways, like through using software I learned on the job.
Third reason: When most employers (mine included) want a minimum of a 3 year degree for data entry jobs (that is to say, scutwork), suddenly that piece of paper can be your best friend.
Fourth reason: Universities and colleges provide excellent opportunities to not only socialize, but to network, pick people's brains, and get into mentoring relationships, co-op programmes, and other helpful Good Things[TM]. Post-secondary education provides a rare combination of opportunities to advance yourself that you just can't get in the workplace, but you have to be smart enough to know where to look and what to do when you find them.
Fifth reason: Work experience! I got a whole year's worth of work experience while doing my one year Master's degree, and my school has co-op programmes in practically everything. There are also a lot of student-oriented part-time jobs around, as well as work-study programmes and the like.
(Shameless plug: Incidentally, if you're concerned about finances, and who isn't, you may want to consider UWaterloo, if you don't mind moving away for awhile. Their CS programme is very good, the tuition is cheap -- especially if you're paying in US$ -- and they offer lots of co-op, bursaries, and other student financial support, as well as a great learning environment.)
Interrobang, BA, MA, future PhD
I'm not a geek, I'm just a clever script.
and am regretting it now that the tech based job market has pretty much imploded. I have multipal certifications, and have over 4-5 years experience and am finding it EXTREMELY hard to find a job. Keep in mind that companies would rather hire a person who is older and has equal experience than hire someone who might be less mature. I am 20 years old, this being the end of the 2nd, beginning of the 3rd year out of high school, and I look at my friends, who will be juniors in September, and wonder why I chose to go straight to work. Not only will you find that you are not around people your own age (very depressing, believe me), but also that you will be treated as "the kid" at virtually every place you are employed. Do yourself a favor, dont strive for grey hair before you should have it. GO to school, have your fun, get your degree, and come out eager to work. Experience does play a large factor in getting a job, but a college diploma works wonders. BELIEVE ME. I am currently miserable, not having a job and having all the bills (rent, utilities, cable, phone) that come with adult life. Please dont squander your 20's away, have fun, go to school.
My 2 cents...
There are a million reasons you should go to college even if you think you shouldn't, but other posters have described most of them already. One I haven't seen so far is this: At your age, you're not going to get any respect in the workplace. I'm not saying you don't deserve it, it's just a fact of life. People don't take you seriously if you are (or seem to be) under 20-25 years old. Go to college, have some fun, and spare yourself four thankless years slaving away when you could have been learning and having a good time. As a bonus, at the end you'll have a degree that will increase your options if you ever decide to change careers.
You're way more likely to get laid in college too.
While an insult to the intelligence of most teachers, the fact of the matter it is true for various reasons. Teachers are sheltered by things such as tenure and the pleasures of cival servanthood. You SHOULD ALWAYS CONSIDER COLLEGE BEFORE A CAREER! Let me repeat that...FUCKING GO TO COLLEGE!. A college degree will last you a life time, and is worth more money than mere certifications. Employers don't care what you really know, they care about what they think you know. That sheepskin makes your more hirable, and more important as a skilled worker than certs. AFTER you get out of college, get a few certs but only to maintain your value as an employee.
Trust me on this, I dropped out of college to follow a career in management, but when that turned out to be bunk I fell back on my computer skills. Unfortunately, although I could whip ass over most IT sysadmins, I still get passed over because I don't have a college degree or experience (how do you get experience without the degree?).
...and complex thinking.
I went to school for Mechanical Engineering. When I got out I found myself working in the graphics industry. Very unrelated. What I found was that the thinking ability I gained from college made me extraordinarily proficient at understanding the complex elements behind digital imaging and computer graphics. It also gave me an advanced understanding of workflow and systems.
That was 9 years ago. Today the entire company runs a workflow that I designed, and has been making money doing it for a long time.
I think the point is that if you go to college and work at it, getting as much knowledge as you can about computers and systems, you will find yourself in a significantly advanced position compared to someone that has just been hacking their way through it for a few years. You will also have a bit more respect years on down the line. College is good, and in most cases, it is expected by companies.
Is it a symptom of something that this story has more comments than the SW review? Or is it just that some people didn't have the chance to see it yet, and prefer not to read a review of it before?
Let's suppose you don't go to college, and you spend all your time getting certifications and real-world experience to be a System Administrator. Now suppose, a year into your first 'real' job, you realize that you hate it and want to do somthing else. Unless you want to mow lawns, tele-market, or flip burgers, you are SCREWED!
With a college degreee you have a MUCH better chance getting a job "outside" your field of specialty.
For Example: When I left High School, I thought I wanted to be a chemist, so I went to college and got a BS in Chemistry. I got a cool job as an inorganic chemist right out of college making so-so money. It turned out that STUDYING chemistry was a LOT more fun than doing it every day, so while I was working in the lab, I taught myself VB. I liked VB so much more than chemistry that I quit my job (5 years ago) , and now make 75K a year +benefits as a VB programmer. Had I not gone to college, no employer would have hired me as a programmer. If I had gone to a "vo-tek" school for chemistry, my only option would be to stick to chemistry, and I would be stuck doing a job that I hated.
My advice, standard and free, is:
If you know what you want to do and can do it (it sounds the asker is here), don't go, at least not yet. You may want/need to take some structured classes later to learn more. If you change your mind, you can maybe go later.
If you don't know what you want to do, don't go. It will waste your time and money. Spend some time looking for things that you're interested in doing. People get all tweaked out about getting married and being with the same person for the rest of their lives, but they'll do any old crap job forever. Do what you love!! At least you'll be happy. Not to say that you won't have to do a crap job for a short time now and again. (I'm doing that now, it sucks, but it makes me work harder to get a job I know I'll love)
If you know what you want to do and need the sort of education and experience that college will provide, go and have a great time. You could end up making some great conections, and for those in the tech industry, a university is a great place to exchange ideas and dig in in a learning environment. An employer might not be as forgiving as a professor.
If I had followed my own advice, I would have taken music or computer classes in college. I'm trying to make up for it now with community college classes, thinking about a CS degree, but it would take a lot of time and I have some professional experience already and just need to fill in some holes. Unfortunately, with a family and other things going on, I need the structure of an actual class to go to, with actual homework that I need to get done and hand in on a deadline. YMMV.
I, too, dropped out after two years of college to take a computer job. Luckily it wasn't for a dot-com, so I still have it.
After two years of college, I felt like I really hadn't gotten anything out of it. On top of that, I hated college. I can not express enough how unhappy I was there. From things like getting a C in programming class for poor attendance even though I aced every quiz and test, to the asinine rhetoric most college students are filled with, I hated it. Why spend an entire school term learning what you could learn in two weeks on your own with a book?
Example: In an introductory unix class, which, like other classes, I was not allowed to skip or challenge, the professor showed us X, using the fvwm window manager, which he said "Makes it look sort of like Windows."
One enterprising young student in the front row raised his hand, and said "I think you mean fvwm95, which tries to emulate the Windows95 appearance, whereas this is regular fvwm blah blah blah" SHUT THE FUCK UP, THE PROFESSOR KNOWS THE DIFFERENCE.
Engineering classes are full of horrible people like this. Eager to show off how much they know, possibly in the hopes that the professor will be impressed and say "Well, administering the HPUX systems is usually reserved for the grad students, but I think you're ready early..." and then he can brag to all his little pals at the next LUG meeting or something.
The downside is that once you get out into the real world and look for a job, most places are not going to take you that seriously if you don't have a degree. If you get an interview, and the interviewer happens to be a techie himself, and he can quiz you on your knowledge, then you're in luck. But in most cases, it's just some know-nothing with an MBA who has know way of verifying whether or not you actually know your stuff. All he has to go on is whether or not you have a degree.
For some reason, these people have not yet figured out that having a degree doesn't actually mean anything. I've met people with computer science degrees who don't know how to change the IP address on a windows system. I've met people who have four-year programming degrees who can't code with shit in Visual BASIC.
What it all comes down to is: If you know what you want to do and you can learn it on your own and you don't like being surrounded by your asinine peers, college is going to be a nightmare hell ride. But if you want to get a job, your chances are greatly increased by having a degree.
One of the many things I hate. thingsihate.org
Oh, right, I forgot to mention certifications in my initial post. I think of them like specific degrees from technical colleges and community colleges and trade schools: they're great to do exactly that stuff, but they're not a general degree. Certifications also go bad when software does, or faster. Try to find a valid new cert in Netware 3.x or even Windows NT now. I'd only go for a cert in his position now if a) I was skipping college or b) was working part time as a sysad and the employer offered to pay for it. a
System administration, as a discipline, is best learned by watching experienced people and by doing. It's one one those things that cry out for a guild and apprenticeship system. Since that isn't there for you, pick a mentor or two and pay close attention. Ally with somebody methodical and careful, somebody who is comfortable with documenting what he/she does - tagging along with a cowboy will only teach you bad habits that will get you fired later in life.
If you have the wherewithal, choose college. Do it while you're young and have no commitments - it can be hell to go back later. The best thing it can do for you is teach you to learn, if that makes any sense.
I honestly don't think that the degree will go that far in becoming a System Administrator, and I don't pay much attention to it when hiring one (I've hired quite a few). I'll choose real-world experience any day. College will give you four years to play around in labs and other sandboxes, and maybe you'll even snag an official gig running one.
A degree will show a potential employer that you're able to learn. Unless you want to be an admin when your 40 (and every other admin you work with is only 20) I suggest you go to college. I guarentee you will want to advance to upper management after a few years of working. Someone will a degree and less experience will probably beat you to it.
I am currently in my last two weeks of a two year term at ITT Tech.
Okay. You can stop laughing now.
It has become very apparent they did very little to prepare my class and I for Network Administration.
So, in conclusion. I don't know anything about system administration, but I do have a degree now, and it may very well help me get a job in the future. (Doing something else)
- Life is what keeps you occupied while you are waiting to die
You cant "learn" a talent though.
Your talent may be your technical skills and not your people skills.
What you have to do, is focus just enough on the people skills to get hired and in the door, then use your technical skills to stay in once you get in.
Working as a team, thats something you can learn playing online RPGs and sports.
Charisma, Humor, and things like that, it cant be learned, either you are goodat it or you arent.
So the goal is to level it out, put on a good act, make yourself seem like you are good with people, wear a nice suit and tie to your interviews, be polite, and when you get the job, continue to be polite, dress nice, and respect everyone.
Do not argue with anyone whos been there longer than you (its a death wish) and just put in effort to get along with them all on a business level.
Its no diffrent than school, you cant avoid people, you can learn to tolerate them and deal with them in a professional manner so that people dont have a problem with you and use your superior techical skills to make them respect you and want to have you around.
Thats what I basically did, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt, depending on which corporation you work for, as some corporations almost demand you go to social events, others are very laid back and just want you to do your work and get along with everyone.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
This is advice from someone who didn't take it himself. I went to college, but didn't finish. It never stood in my way because I went into software development and I had already been doing it for years before I went into the workforce full-time.
That said, I think a college education can be invaluable, if you're into it. If you're not, don't go and waste your parents' or your own money. If you go to college, go because you want the education, and I'm not just talking about an education in computers. If that's all you really want, then just get your certifications and go into the workforce.
College isn't much of a preparation for a particular job, so much as a general education, which I think everyone needs. One of my favorite quotes from Mark Twain is, "Never let your schooling interefere with your education." My personal translation that I live by, is "Don't limit your education to your schooling." Education is a lifelong process that shouldn't end until you die.
I was always a horrible student in English, but I discovered in the "real" world, being literate, in speaking and in writing is very important. While it may be wrong, many people, myself included, judge a person's intelligence, to a large degree, by their literacy. If people write poorly, I tend to think less of their intelligence. Is that fair? Maybe not, but you'll find it's quite common.
Education in other subjects is just as important, for a variety of reasons, but in general, to be an interesting and interested member of the human race. There's a lot more to life than your job, and an education, formal or otherwise, adds a lot of dimensions to your life.
But that's just my degree-less opinion.
Check out April 2002's Unemployment Numbers http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t03.htm Is college worth it... yeah, I think so...
If for no other reason than you can sound cool discussing the signal strength of each pin in DB9 That always shuts ignoramus DBA's up. =-) Seriously, I'm involved with interviewing applicants and while we don't require a degree just ability. A degree is a requirement if you ever wish to lead a project. From others I've talked to this seems to be a wide spread although unfortunate truth in the industry.
I would stick to a state school (like Michigan State University) instead of a really "high power" school. Why? So that you can have time to goof-off, learn how to manage the opposite sex, and get lots of job experience via internships/part-time contract work.
A few other suggestions: (a) take business classes, especially a class or two in law; (b) take a good amount of english/technical writing courses; and (c) take a course in civics (government, ethics, etc.) Basically... be well rounded -- give the non-technical courses some serious work. Hang out with the artsy crowd some... yes, it may be painful, but it will come in handly later on.
I am currently a senior in college getting a degree next may. For the past two years I have been working for a department at my school as a sys-admin. It is great, I overlook the operations of a few servers and 100+ Windows/Unix boxes (by myself with no assistance). This is one of the best environments to be in. First off with this being such a paper oriented world now a days, companies first look at your GPA. So in turn your work helps you with experience in the areas that you are studying helping you with your "all important" GPA. Second you have school that helps you with your work, if you learn something new in class then you can apply it to your work and see how it works in the real world. This helps your experience level go through the roof. Employers love that. Consider going to school and sys-admining, it is well worth it. Most of the time you are only allowed to work 20 hours a week also (even though I put in upwards of 50 a week wail going to school full time) but I love my job and it is making school more enjoyable at the same time.
"The two most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity." -Harlan Ellison
I went to college and it helped me out a lot. But in no way in the traditional way. I got a job in the lab and gained a little experience. I was recruited from the lab out into the work force. Fortunately my second job was working for an isp where I learned all sort of trouble shooting skills. Around this time I dropped out of school with 63 hours and no degree. I was hired to be a UNIX administrator at a large corporation but ended up working as a wide area network engineer till a UNIX position was created for me. Finally in a roll as an UNIX administrator but with a huge amount of experience in all sorts of networked environments I feel and my job history shows I have no problem competing. A big bonus is that every company I have ever worked for has been 100% willing to send me back to school and pay anywhere from 80% to 100% of the tuition. If your lucky and can afford college then maybe you should go. If you come from a family in which you need to pay your own way like I did then the loss of revenue for 4 years plus the 60k in student loans you "graduate" with may not be worth it. It sounds like you have some opportunities already. Your already one step ahead of me... I thought I wanted to be an English major.
Jobs are scarce, and people who can't get jobs, as well as high school graduates, are going (back) to college. So I'd say your best bet is to try to get into college while doing some work on the side.
In quebec, Canada, there is no Sys adm school. In college, or at university. I only found Teccart (www.teccart.qc.ca) that is able to offer you 3 years of Win2k/Netware/UNIX/different prog. lang. That is not bad, if you compare to the majority of prog school
Mess with the best, die like the rest
While in University, training to be a Computing Scientist, I took a job with my department as a junior sysadmin. That way, you get experience, you get an education, and you don't have to travel very far to get to work. The added benefit was that I always had a machine to do my work on, even when the labs in the building were full.
Straight out of high school (age 18) I attended Devry in the TCOM program for three trimesters. Testing out of every possible tech. related class they would let me, and taking nothing but general education. I got bored very quick. Dropped out with a huge dept of loans. Parents still wanting me to continue my education I enrolled in a junior college to take general education once again, only attending one semester this time. At this time I started my own business with two other partners that I still own today.
After a year of running my own business I was able to move out on my own and prep a very nice resume. I put my resume up for grabs for recruiters. Today (age 22) I have a full time job making more than my parents combined as a *nix Admin. I'm pretty satisfied on my success. Not bad for only three years out of high school. Plus if I went to college, I wouldn't graduate for another whole year. ACK!
I don't really want to suggest a path for anyone to take. However, 99.999% of the time personal/work experience plus a good resume will be just as good as a piece of paper from college for getting your foot in the door (Certs. are a BIG bonus). The rest is up to you on convincing them you are perfect for the position.
Good Luck!
> I wan't to be a programmer
This sentence makes the decision for you, I'm afraid. Go to college. And pay more attention in high school English class while you're still there.
1.) What is the Opportunity Cost/Monitary Cost of a College Degree?
:)). so, naturally I felt like I could easly enter the job market. But something just erked me about not having some sort of higher education to give myself the chance for advancement in case I wanted to change fields later in life.
Maybe a couple of years of average wages - assuming you attend a 2 year tech school (few will pay the big bucks to a kid with a high school degree, regardless of knowledge or experience). Plus, the cost of school itself.
2.) Benefits of a degree
- You have something to put in the "Education" are of your resume other than a high school degree. It may sound trival & stupid...but it's true.
- The chance to work with top of the line technology (depending on the school) and to be around others who are equally interested in your field (this is where you learn the most)
- You increase your market value
I think the basic question that you have to ask yourself is: "Do I want to be an SA for the rest of my career?".
I was in the same boat coming out of high school (graduated in 1996). I had way more experence in the "computing area" than many adults I knew. In fact in 93-94, I was the only one in my high school with internet access (1200 baud
I'm graduating next week with a Masters Degree in e-Business, and I really feel that I made the right choice. Don't trap yourself into a career by passing up a college degree, even a 2 year school would be sufficient. It will only enhance your marketability when applying for jobs.
College Students get laid way more than Sys Admins
I would recommend going to full four years on campus and out of state, have a good time, but only if your parents are paying the bills. If not, try to get a job where they do tuition reimbursement, then go to school as much as they will let you. But generally, I would not recommend skipping college altogether. If you feel you are a good SysAdmin, get a business degree, this will allow you to move into management. This advice comes from someone with some college, and have had good success in the IT workplace, but keep in mind without a degree you will hit a ceiling (position and money).
I think the best solution, being a System Admin/IT Mgr who graduated from college a week ago, is to go to college and co-op. I co-oped for three of the four years I was in school. I got the best of both worlds, not only a college education/degree but also 3 years of real experience. By graduation my resume was bursting at the seams with skills and experience, not to mention the Bachelor's degree. Also, a good idea is to gain as many certifications you can while you're in school. Unless you go to MIT or something, you'll probably have time to take a few certifications here and there. From what I hear it's difficult to do that kind of stuff once you're in the "real world."
College may be mostly a waste of time, but many of the better companies will not take you seriously unless you have that little piece of parchment. If you *truly* know what you are doing, then college is mostly a waste of time, though you pick up a bit here and there. But most of the people I see coming out of high school who think they are high-caliber sysadmins are really not as great as they think, and companies know this. Before my degree I was capping out at 17.50 an hour, but the next week after the degree, the same company started giving 27.50 an hour. Even if you find an 'enlightened' company, you get stuck. If you feel the need to leave, you know your chances of another company being so enlightened are slim. One company tried to tempt me this way, tried to get me to quit and work at 60k a year, but I knew they would have me. Even if it was the perfect job, if it got cut back (like now) I would be screwed.
Even if it doesn't teach you much, a college degree shows something about your work ethic, among other intangibles. To you, skipping colleg may show that you are a no-nonsense, get into action kind of person, but managers many times view this as someone who is too impatient with structure and would likely overlook things such as proper procedure and documentation, which are vital to business on a comparable level to the work itself.
A hot-shot, overconfidant worker who couldn't care less about procedure and documentation is worse than a below-average person who follows procedures and details.
That all being said, it isn't difficult to have a job and school at the same time. Your freshman year you can probably do no better than a little school job, maybe a TA, but by the sophomore year you can land a decent professional grade job that may not pay great, but 14-18 dollars an hour should be possible. This has been my strategy and has allowed me to have enough money to be comfortable and come out with some mobility and security in this rather shaky market.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
The worst that often happens after college is the loan that paid for it. It could take over a decade to pay it off.
At first, I couldn't afford to go to college and I didn't want a loan so I went to work while going to college. I dropped out of college, I'm now in a PC tech job getting a mere $52k a year, but I know that I could easily have $10k-$20k more if I had ANY degree.
Get a degree in the shortest possible amount of time, regardless of what it is (I've met a network engineer who had a TOURISM degree).
m.mmm..myyy
because living in a dorm is a lot more fun than living in your parent's basement.
because there are some fine colleges in Hawaii.
because employers don't like it if they only see you when you are hung over or still plastered.... but professors are used to it.
two words: spring break.
because you will never get laid if you spend your life hanging out in a room full of other people's computers and posting to Slashdot.
SpyDock: Scientific Python in a Docker container
There's 2 things school has going for it.
1) The paper means something. I was out of work for 8 months last year, half the interviews I went on were companies looking for paper. Looking back I am glad I didn't land those jobs but at the time it would have been nice. A single guy with little debt can be unemployed for 8 months, if I had a family....
2) Any degree will help you move up. You DO NOT want to be a sysadmin for the rest of your life. The hours suck, you are constantly fighting with some dumbass little thing, you have to bust your ass to keep your skills current. I know it looks like the bomb now but one day when you are 25 or so you'll be sitting at your desk sucking down some Subway and posting on Slashdot when you realize that Wednesday's work day just hit 30 consecutive hours. "Oh look", you'll say, "It's Thursday at lunchtime, I've been here for 30 hours! I want to go fucking home! Shove this pager up your ass boss man!"
I'm having a lovely couple of days btw.
I want out, I want to be a manager, maybe in marketing. I have no education, I'm gonna get it. My boss wants me to get it, he's helping. It's cool. I wish I had done it when I was 20 though.
Don't plan on being a sysadmin for the rest of your life. Most guys I know don't make it past 30 in this job, you get out or you burn out. It is fun while it lasts but it will cost you your health, your social life and your perspective.
Slashdot posts these stories about college/no college or the job situation in general(in which having a degree or not seems to be a big factor.)
All I can say is look at these responses. I can tell you they are exactly the same in each article like this. The ones that scream 'go to college' all say to do it because it makes you look more valuable. Or because in a 'tight job market' having a degree makes it easier to get a job.
Every single one of these posters seems to view themselves in terms of how valuable they are to employers. Its really a subservient attitude, and I wish colleges would teach people to be more self-reliant rather than trying to mold themselvees into what they think the market wants. Really your true value comes from within - what you know, who you know, how well you can sell yourself.
In the professional world, your attitude shouldn't be "find someone who gives me a decent job". It shouldn't be waiting to say "how high" when an employer says "jump". Rather, you should look at a job as "how can I create value for my employer and its customers". Do that and you'll never need to worry about money. Because if you can prove to people that you can make them money or save them money by hiring you, you'll never be without work.
Your value is determined by what you can produce, not by what someone is willing to pay you based on a resume. If you think going to college will enable you to produce more throughout your career, by all means, do it. Personally, I plan on finishing college, but I don't have a plan to work for some big corp. I believe I can make more money and have a better career starting my own business, and I want the degree mainly for the knowledge and for the challenge. If you do go to college, do it for you, not for what others think of you.
No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?
Maybe I'm a little too late to jump in on this one, but from all the high ranked posts that just say "You don't know what you want, go to college!" I don't think they're all right. However, they do have a point. Chances are you really don't have a very good understanding of everything in the world, and a University is a good place to get a varied world view with multiple perspectives you hadn't thought of. However, the four-year-deal isn't for everyone.
Everyone always hypes the bachelors programs as the end all of college. Its not. In fact, jumping right in can be overwhelming, cause you to lose focus and swear 'Why the hell am I taking Composition? I want to work on computers!' Thus, I propose that you don't go to a 4 year University, but rather head to a Community College and start work on an AA. Why you might ask? Very simple. You start gaining the benefits of working on a degree, without committing yourself to 4 whole years. If after 2 years you're screaming 'I want to work on computers!' You can cut out with a 2 year AA. If you went straight for the BA, you don't have that option.
Also, the first two years at a University is spent primarily on general education (math, writing, speech, basic history, etc). At a four year University, they have to do so many of these courses that they tend to have massive class sizes. During my first two years at the University of Central Florida, it wasn't uncommon to be in a class of 200-300 people. In a Community College setting, you generally won't find a class above 50 people, allowing for much more personal interaction (and interest) from your instructor. This can be key to getting the best out of the education you're paying for, as I've found that if the professor knows you by name, you will gain between 2-5% on your final grade. This is, in part, because you've been paying attention to your professor, and in part, because the professor _knows_ that you have been paying attention.
Furthermore, you're really not selling yourself short by starting at a Community College. After you get your AA, if you wish to continue, you can go to a 4 year University after that (and only have to work for another 2 years) and get a Bachelors degree. Despite what everyone says, the University is not for everyone.
My credientials on the subject matter: I enrolled at the University of Central Florida's BA program directly in the Fall of 1999 as a Computer Science student. I decided I hated to think of computers as anything more than a tool to accomplish non-computer related tasks, and switched over to Political Theory (which I find far more fun). I graduated last month, and am going on to do PhD research in Political Theory starting next fall.
I also had the opportunity to work in an Internet Service Provider straight out of High School (with heavy implication that I would be offered a management position). They pay had the potential to be pretty good, however, I had no desire to live that life at that time.
Take these opinions however you wish, it is your life. Don't let what nameless people on Slashdot tell you dictate what you do.
Some say it "Opens Doors". Sure, it CAN open some doors, but it depends on what those doors are. Someone else WILL offer the same position, without the bull. If you're being disqualified becuase you don't have a college degree, then maybe those employers aren't looking at the job REQUIREMENTS. Not the list of letters a potential candidate needs, but what the candidate needs to know to get the job done.
I've already gotten a few job consultancy offers in the area. What has the experience been for any of you out in the tech industry? For you that went to college, did it truly help? And for you that didn't go to college, has it been harder for you to find a job? Also, if you believe that I should go to college, what should I major in? But if you think I shouldn't, what certifications would hold valuable in the future, and what kind of job positions should I take now?"
The only thing I miss about not going to college, is the party life. If you can go on someone elses tab, then go. Otherwise I would suggest taking a job at the consultancy, and getting as many certs as you can on your downtime. Then work towards your personal goals.
I personally like to do as many different things as possible, but I also like control. Luckily, I've found a job that provides me both (small company, I'm the only tech, so I'm IT Manager :). Is that what you're looking for? Then learn all you can, and make that your goal.
Your biggest hurdle is going to be at the interview. I'm a shy person, so I tend to babble. Get it under control. Research the company you want to work for BEFORE you even send out your resume. You'll want to adjust it, and your cover letter, to match your job skills with the job you want more accurately (get a hair cut, and buy some new clothes).
I only had a problem with no college degree at a bank. We're talking suits galore, and a political atmosphere I didn't really like anyways. But it was a great learning experience, because I couldn't buy a damn thing! :) (And now I consult for that former boss - where I couldn't move 'up' because I didn't have a degree, I've come back to make much more because of experience and respect.)
If you don't like politics, go small business.
At the end of the day, you're not going to be satisifed with your decision :)
Either you're going to wish you had gone to college, or think it was a waste of your time.
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
My take on this (which hopefully has something insightful after 400 previous posts) is that a college education isn't required. YET. It was the same way for my father in electronics. He worked in an American Airlines repair facility. I think he initially started out on radars.
But after decades of the electronics field maturing, he found that he was just about the only person WITHOUT a college degree. And towards the end of his career, it impacted on his perceived ability to do his job and his chances for promotion.
While a computer degree may not be required NOW, you've got to think about 20 or 30 years down the road. You could very well end up screwed without one.
FWIW, some of my coworkers (sysadmins) don't have college degrees. They are a little uptight about it at times. And they know they are on a little shakier ground than their degreed counterparts.
Is a college education required to do the job? No. But it is the perceptions of people around you, now and in the future, that really count.
the power of the dark side
College gets you knowledge. But going pro gets you dough.
ok then your [sic] infringing on my copyright! Could you as [sic] me next time before STEALING my comments for your own?
Screw college, and everyone in it.
Here's my take on it...
The two years I spent in college taught me more then programming, they taught me how to "think". Not the everyday thought, but in depth problem solving I couldn't have learned on my own. I was also exposed to a huge variety of Computing environments which I would never have encountered otherwise. That exposure has been invaluable.
As for my choice to drop out... I shouldn't have. But I approached college in the wrong way. I majored in CS, minored in Medieval Studies. I should have switched that. I enjoyed medieval studies, but CS bored me (I did not want to be a programmer either, I wanted to be a sysadmin). I worked for the Physics computer network while I was a student. That was the best choice.
Had I taken a major I enjoyed, a minor of CS to get some exposure, and worked in the PCN to get experience I would have walked out with all the knowledge I needed, and a piece of paper. Without that piece of paper I can never move into a management position. My salary cap is already set. So go, get a degree in something you're interested in (you do have other interests, don't you?) Minor in CS, it's good for you. Work for the IS staff at the university.
In the end, it will be the best way to use your time and youth.
Take the opportunity now, instead of having to make it later. I know 4 people who didn't go to college. They are all doing pretty well, but all have told me at one time or another that they regret not doing it. College will teach you about life and help you grow up. In addition to that, you'll learn a few things in your classes. If you're poking around here, chances are your're interested in UNIX. Colleges are great places to get UNIX experience. You should major in Computer Science. Good luck
--
Then when you're ready, work and go to school. If you can weasel a job out of the University, do it! They're usually really flexible on the hours, and if you can lodge yourself in there, you might parlay it into a position when you eventually graduate. The behemouth of higher education is one of the last few bastions of total unreality left on the planet: where pay is good, vacation plentiful, actual work scarce, and they throw in a fresh steady stream of co-eds as icing. I thoroughly beat myself about the head and neck on a regular basis for leaving.
So many people want to jump right into being the BOFH without working their way up the ladder. In the few sober hours you will have during your college years (I highly recommend the balcony beer bong, nothing like 10 feet of pressure head to prime the pump), you need to follow the proper career development path...
You need to spend at least six months to a year at a dead end job doing end user technical support via phone, preferably for the lowest price ISP in your area. This is important, because here is where you'll develop your disdain for the public. Do not progress further until your patience for stupid people is acceptably low, and you weep for the future on a daily basis. When you find yourself hitting the mute button to laugh at customers, you are on your way. When you no longer use the mute button, and just laugh directly at them, you are ready to move up the next rung.
This is an important step, because this is where you really learn to loathe Microsoft and Novell. You can't really be the BOFH unless you develop the proper sneer to deliver to Windows users that communicates your contempt for their total lack of clue. This job will also allow you to hone your application of the cluestick. Resist the temptation to substitute a Jose Canseco bat, however, as advancement within the Penal System requires a skillset not often compatible with that of a SysAdmin. Work on the fine motor control required to hit the "reset" button, and the muscle memory required to tell the users to reboot. This will be important later, when you will be able to taunt them with the uptime of your non-MS workstation. The key lesson to learn here is that most users have difficulty chewing gum, much less walking and doing so. When you fully see the irony in "Plug-and-Play" it is time.
This is the crucial step, the one that makes or breaks you. Try to find a company that has at least one "Developer" or "Programmer" on staff. This is important, because you need to learn that intellegence, wisdom, and common sense do not often travel together. Remember to concentrate on the angle of your knuckles to improve the sting of your "Programmer B*#$^Slap." A favorite passtime here will be playing "file permissions bingo." Allow users to create and become comfortable with their usual "Full Control" (you're still in MS land) defaults, and then slowly start to contract them. You'll soon realize what complete crap VMS, errr, WinNT is, and you'll begin to fine tune the Linux/BSD skills while trying to migrate the environment. When you have managed to get them completely onto a Linux based solution, quit. But go back two weeks later and get hired as a consultant to run the thing for 10 times the money. Smile as you bend them over, to make up for the many times you found yourself facedown on the counter. Bonus points for extracting worthless certifications at company expense.
These are often considered "The Underground" years. Most large companies this size have tons of stupid policies, and your mission in life is to skirt them. About now you'll realize that binge drinking isn't as fun as you once thought, and it might be time to start looking for permanent female companionship. WARNING: Do not seek at your place of employement! You wouldn't want to date an IT type person anyway, and to date a luser will only lead to either suicide, or a visit to the aforementioned Big House. Find the one guy who wrote the accounting package in Cobol fifteen years ago, and apprentice yourself to him. Beware of the AS/400, it will only end in tears. Continue to milk the small company, and see if you can't add a few more to the hit list. Keep this position until 5) is available.
The ultimate goal of any BOFH is of course, to aspire to government service. A University is preferable (see above), but any large agency is ripe. Resist the urge to enter management at 4). Managers are an illusion, IT Managers doubly so. The major problem with being a manager is the mandatory lobotomy, and the surgery to implant the telegraph pole is discomforting. Government agencies tend to run outdated platforms that only a chosen few actually understand. Try and find a spot where your manager actually thinks he/she understands the system. It makes life much easier if you don't have to develop their misconceptions, but can use those already built in. Spend your time at work trying to hack the driver for that crate of wireless networking cards you bought off ebay for $10. It's amazing how much quality life you can have when you get paid to do nothing. Continue to run your side business as a contract admin. Bonus points for getting a contract in the office where you work (double dipping is a civil servants moral obligation: see Office, Post).
This also might be considered the terminus branch at any point above. Now that your personality is properly molded into the true BOFH, you are ready imbue those ideals to the future generation. The rule bending experience will come in handy for dealing with pesky administrators. Oh yeah, and you get all summer off, too!
If you fail to find the humor above, you should reconsider your occupational choice. If you've actually managed to read this far, you are either perfectly suited to be a SysAdmin, or hold one of the above mentioned government jobs!
UugaBuuga
After spending far too much time at a really crappy university, where they had a nearly fraudulent (IMNSHO) attitude toward not scheduling classes necessary to complete a degree without spending more money by staying an extra year or two, I still -- surprisingly -- favor going to college rather than delving into a career. It's important to attend the best college you can find for your intended field, so shop around, and don't decide based on social issues, etc. Get value for your money. (I didn't and hate the university for it.)
I think the importance of college, assuming you get value for your money in classes for your major, is in the "mind-opening" classes that you'll end up taking, in and out of your major area. You may groan about having to take a geology class if you're a computer major, for example, but there is immense value in having a broader perspective than just the technical issues for what you hope will be your eventual career. If you only know those technical details, you bring less value to future employers who will need a well-rounded individual, not just a monkey who knows what buttons to push. (For this reason, I also favor at least a short term of military service, especially overseas. The personal growth makes you a more valuable contributor in a wider range of scenarios.)
Don't cut yourself short, either. Realize that your idea of a "great career" may change drastically in the next ten years. If you only learn what you need to perform a job, of what value are you to yourself if you decide to switch to an entirely different career?
If you can manage to work part-time (in your intended career area) while attending school, I would recommend that. But I do mean "manage" it, don't trash your grades because you enjoy work more. (Speaking from experience there!)
Attending a bad school is probably worse than attending no school, but I believe attending a valuable school is better than delving directly into the work force full-time.
No Laughing Allowed!
... eventually.
I think the smartest choice I've ever made was to spend a few years in the "real world" between high school and college. Everyone I know who's taken a few years off has said the same thing: It's an excellent way to test the waters of working full time, and a great way to figure out what you really enjoy doing.
I took five years off, and while some have said my experience is somewhat extraordinary, I think it demonstrates my point well enough. In those five years, I worked at an animation studio, started a software company, traveled in Asia and Europe, and worked as a photographer and assistant up and down the West Coast of the United States. I discovered my love of travel, grew to love philosophy, met amazing people, and did some really cool things that would have been impossible to do if 1) I had been in school, or 2) had to pay off student loans.
There's no better time than now to try something interesting and take risks. Later on you'll have some pretty big responsibilities, like kids, student loans, and a mortgage. Now, even if your best laid plans fall apart, the worst that can happen is that you'll end up living with your parents and heading back to school.
If you can get a job as a sysadmin, go for it. If you end up not liking it, go do something else. Travel as much as you can afford. Try things that your normally wouldn't try.
Then go back to school. I'm currently pursuing a double degree in philosophy and photography at a great university in New Zealand, and in my spare time I administer a community server and do tricky things with PHP. I'm incredibly keen on my education now that I've had a look around in the "real world," and there's no way in hell I would have ended up on the other side of the planet, studying the things I'm studying, if I had headed straight off to uni after graduating from high school.
Don't go straight to school if you don't want to. It may be the safest thing to do in the long run, but you're at an ideal time in life to take a few risks. Trust me, you'll be better off for it.
I'll start off by admitting that I am infact a college grad. However, I'm not working in my field, physics. I've been a professional programmer ever since I graduated. Here's the rub: I have zero formal education in the field. I built my skills up on the side during college and started getting progressively more responsible jobs afterwards. My physics education has been useful indirectly(analytical skills, math knowledge etc), but has only rarely been directly applied. Do I regret wasting four years on an education that hasn't helped me professionally? Heck no! I loved physics. I'm just not really good enough to make it as a scientist. I went for it and didn't make the cut. No regrets whatsoever for trying. Just a few for not making it.
So what does this mean for your plans? College is not a trade school, and frankly, thats what much of the computer field amounts to, a trade or vocation. I'd say you're better off getting some certs and some junior college creds if you want to be a sys admin. Meanwhile if you go to college, study something you love for its own sake. Looking at what college costs now as opposed to when I went, I'd really have to ask myself whether the skills I would acquire would be worth it. However, the cautionary note here is that a lot employers in the IT field want a bachelors. Some state "or equivalent experience", but most want that BA or BS.
This is what worked for me and I'm sure you'll hate the Idea but...
Join the Air Force.
Now don't flame just hear me out.
If you are getting out of high school and are a computer geek but without the wherewithal or grades to go to a good college then the military will basically be your savior.
Even if you only go the 4 year route like I did you will get from the military four years of tech experience, training in the computer field (networking, admin, programming, etc) that you CHOSE AT THE RECRUITERS (that's very important), the GI bill for college, and a killer resume.
All you really have to content with is 4 years of short haircuts, no drugs, and if you are gay no sex. Of course if you are a geek then 4 more years without sex wont be anything new to you anyway.
This is geared to a Programmer but just change program to Maintain or Operate and there you go.
Granted basic training is a drag but you get 3 college PE credits for it. Then it's on to Tech school where (if your are a programmer) you get another 19 credit hrs and training in various programming languages. Then it's off to your first assignment. Probably some shithole is Texas but you could end up somewhere very nice. PROGRAMMERS DON'T GO TO WAR so you get to stay home. Next you learn whatever it is that they are programming in at your new Base. Everyone says "ADA" but I only saw that at tech school. Everyone else uses what is appropriate to the job. Mostly C or Java for the UNIX side and some kind of Visual crap for MS.
Other than from 7:30 to 4:30 your time is your own with weekends off. There are tons of stuff to do on most Bases but the most important is FREE CLEP/DANTE tests from the Base education office. Take as many as you would like. If you don't pass one on your first try just check out the study material from the Base library and try again in a 6 months.
After the first year you will take your 5 level tests (just a bunch of questions about your career field, You have all the study material issued to you). After that you can start going to the real college off Base if you'd like. Many Bases allow 3 hrs of "Personal Growth Time" for you to take courses during work hours (if your job permits it) or you can go at night. You could also wait for the teachers to come to Base. Most Bases offer night classes as well.
Did I mention the GI Bill yet? Well it makes college WAY cheaper and some Commands will reimburse you for classes that pertain to your career field. Add to that when you do decide to leave the military the GI bill adds to any other benefit you may receive from your employer. Right now I make about 200 a month more just for going to college. Twice a week. At night.
Did I also mention the Community College of the Air Force (CCAF)? Damn near every course that the Air Force sends you to (and they will) are worth college credits. The CCAF is accredited and an associates degree is and an associates degree. It's even better when it's free.
So after four years of work you will have an associates degree (close to a bachelor's). 4 years experience, possibly a security clearance, medals if you do really well, the GI bill and the only 21 -22 year old that you know who can say "yes I was the lead programmer for 2 products" and "why yes I was in charge of the UNIX development lab". Add to all this the ability to bitch to people in bars about how "this damn military is going to crap, back in my day..."
So if your just out of high school and have nothing pending. Go into an Air Force recruiters' office and Say that I want to work on computers. Don't let then sign you up for Security Forces or some Guaranteed General slot that they have open. Just stick to your guns, take the tests they tell you to take and sign the form that says:
Reserved Position of
COMPUTER PROGRAMMER (or OPPERATOR or MAINTANENCE or COM or anything that is followed by 3C***)
Then welcome to crappy basic and to a rather beneficial 4 years. And who knows you might enjoy it.
..which just shows that the human brain is ill-adapted for thinking and was probably designed for cooling the blood-T P
If you want to work for someone for the rest of your life get a degree its a great way to get a mediocre job making 50k/yr.
On the other hand. Im very successful on my own without even a highschool diploma.
During the dotcom craze I got offered a job in web development in NYC (im canadian) so I went for 3 months n put HS on hold. After that fizzled out (couldnt stand creating sites to someone elses idea of whats acceptable design, think megalinks) I went out looking for jobs.
At this time the dotcom market was at its worst slump but i was still getting jobs.. short highpaying freelance work but changing projects every week wasnt what I wanted to do.
So I found someone i'd worked with before and started a dotcom myself. With a nice vc injection im now driving a bmw z3 and own my own house outright (at 19). The companies still not profitable but things look poised to turn profitable in about 6 months. But thats the whole point in the vc game... You dont have to make a profit to be successful.
Bottom line if you know your stuff i mean really know your stuff (and arent faking it) eg knowledge of custom kernels and how to setup a lan wont cut it, you can make it without a degree. If you want to work for someone debugging the network when someone screws it up or helping ms johnson to open her email 6 times a day... get a degree. If you want to work for yourself and start a network consulting and installation company and take some risk the skys the limit, no one will see your resume/credentials but you and a degree will really mean jack. But be prepared in a net tech position to have a hard go of it instead of student loans think government small business programs and business loans.
I'd still totally suggest not getting a degree. My older brother did a masters and hes now making 40 thou cdn which is liek 30 us. And im making like 150... plus perks... so its all about who you are and how you can sell yourself and your company. Dont do a degree (especially not in it), if you're going to anyways do a business degree it'll always be relevant even when your it degree which will be outdated in 2 years isnt.
- It shows that you have the stamina to work on a goal for a long time, and that you don't give up when you run into a problem
- It's the biggest opportunity to make friends that you'll stay in contact for a lifetime, and that can help you out if you're in trouble
- You learn how to learn new stuff. If you want to work in the IT field as career, you better get used to the concept that you never need [technological] knowledge that is older than four years. Trust me.
- You learn how to attack problems
- It helps you get a job in bad times
- It makes you a more creative person
And when you're finally in university:
- Try to learn something that is not connected to your own field. I studied mathematics, but the most rewarding lectures were the ones in psychology, and the foreign language classes
- Try to spend some time abroad
- Every now and then get a reality check by working for money or as an intern
Doesn't matter what, just as long as you are passionate about it. Forget the whole "it will help you find a job" line of crap. People change careers and move around. Do what you love first and the rest will take care of itself. A job is only work if you don't love it.
I'm going to go against the grain and say that if
you're not sure you want to go to college, don't. I
hit college right out of high school, and didn't
really want to go. I did horribly after a couple of semesters, dropped out, and spent around 2 years having a *really* good time. I bummed around at minimum wage jobs, played in bands, and generally had fun. After a while of that, I was ready for college, went back and did well. Just relax for a while. If you can pick up some sysadmin work that isn't full time, do so. If you're not sure, college can be a costly mistake.
Elegance is for tailors. -A. Einstein
Don't rush into anything, be it college, working as a sysadmin, etc. You have your entire life to work, to go to school and learn. I frequently suggest people take a year off between high school and college and just travel. You will have a hard time matching that experience, and you will be far better off for it. (Especially since you are an American, and have probably not seen much of the world.)
If you really want to get going on school, my suggestion would be to take classes purely out of interest and diversity. Don't worry about taking CS courses right away. (In fact, I'd recommend NOT majoring in CS at all...) Take a foreign language, take TV and film classes, do a semester abroad (back to traveling!). IOW, don't ``grow up'' too quickly, 'cause it's awfully hard to go back once you have.
As for me: I got married at 18, my wife had our first child soon after, and I ended up having to work full-time and put myself through school (also full-time). Three schools, two MAJOR changes in my major, 5.5 years, and one cross-country move later and I have a BACS. In terms of my day-to-day job, it's pretty worthless. I rarely use stuff I learned in CS courses to fulfill my job as a senior sysadmin. Often I wish I had majored in Linguistics or something *interesting*, rather than what I thought would be profitable.
I went off to college back in '96 to pursue a degree in Computer Science. I graduated in the top 10 in my High School, but my college career was very different. As soon as I moved in my forced-triple dorm room with two roomates I despised immediately, life was pretty damn bad for the 2.5 years that I stuck with it. Unless you are good-looking or very social or a jock or a frat-boy bastard, there ain't shit to do at college. The majority of my time there was spent trying to complete random assignments, sleeping, and working minimum wage jobs. My grades were poor, my GPA being around 2.05 for classes that I passed. (At WPI, anything under a C is never recorded). I failed so many classes freshman year that I had to take 4 during the summer to retain financial aid...which I barely pulled off. Halfway through the second nightmare year, I wanted out really bad....I wanted to pursue a degree in computer art at SCAD, drove to georgia to interview, got accepted, and couldn't go because of lack of money. I then returned to WPI, took an 8 month co-op position, and hoped when I went back that I would have more motivation again. Unfortunately, that was not the case. I went back, tried to take the required classes that I failed before, and promptly failed them again. (Calculus 4 and analysis of algorithms, if anyone cares.) Now I was out on the street, some $42,000+ in debt, with no degree and huge loan payments. All I can say is thank god that the company I did a co-op for was pleased with my prior performance and gave me a decent job at a pay rate slightly higher than my original co-op.
Now, a couple years later, the company I work for was bought up by a larger company, I survived a round of layoffs, and I'm taking night classes at Clark University to finish off my CS degree. I was able to transfer most of my credits from WPI...and now have about 6 years worth of night courses to fill up random degree requirements not relating to my major. It will be a lot of work, but I would really like someday to have a degree in CS. Partially for my own vindication, so I can actually believe in my abilities again, but also because if I ever got laid off, there is no way in hell I could get a job without a degree.
mpb
man tunefs | grep fish
... they automatically assume that I wan't to be a programmer or an engineer.
Main Entry: 1 wan't
Pronunciation: 'wont also 'want &'w&nt
Function: contraction
Etymology: Early 21st century American English, poplurized online by wannabe systems administrators
1: contracion of "wall not", as in "My mom wants me to go to college, but I wan't! I'm going to be an u1tr@ LeEt sy$@dm1n!"
----
My advice: more school.
Most of the posts i read focus on the issue of how valuable college is to a career and resume. IMO college is valuable because it has so much more to do with life than career. You can (though most do not) learn so much more than the requirements for a job while spending 4 years in a new town, with new people, doing new things.
Most /. readers are intelligent and motivated enough to learn the computer (hw or sw or sys) industry on their own. Go to college to get a history degree or physics degree - enjoy your time there. You will be sure to spend the hours while there learning your sys admin things on the side - or in support of your degree (perl to search docs during research, c++ to study attractors, etc.) In the mean time, you can earn money on the side doing sys admin if you want.
School is easy enough that it is not a full time thing - i agree with a previous poster that it is not necessary to get the As - unless you want to go on to grad school - then it helps. The 4 yours you spend is so valuable just for the experiences you can have -
enjoy your youth!
I've been involved with college counseling for about seven years now, and the mantra I hear most often is, "Get good grades, get into a good college, get a good job." None of these things hold much water, except maybe the first one, sometimes.
You still need to major in something that will get you a job, but that's a side-effect: in 1985, a survey of Yale graduates from the 1960's showed that about 75% of them were working in jobs that did not exist when they graduated.
The real point of college should be to improve your abilities and talents. And that includes your ability to think, to learn, and to adapt, not to mention secondary skills like discipline, communication, etc. This doesn't always happen, but that's the goal, at least. I had a fabulous education in CS that landed a great job right out of school, but I've always considered that to be the lesser half of my college experience when I look at my life overall. Many who've been through college will say that this is just mushy claptrap. I say, they're the ones who missed out (possibly through no fault of their own).
However, I do hold that liberal arts schools (i.e. essentially anything that is not a "tech" school like RPI or MIT) are generally much better at this, because they deliberately expose you to subjects that, over the centuries, have proven useful in training the mind. Even for the technically-inclined, there is little or no disadvantage to attending a non-tech school at the undergraduate level unless the the department you're interested in is particularly tiny, or has bad lab facilities.
And, as others have mentioned, don't underestimate the friends, mentors, and contacts that are part of the package. The dean of freshmen at Harvard told me once that more than half the value of any college education comes from the people, not the classes -- which I agree with, but it was interesting to see that coming from inside the administration.
Okay, I'll stop ranting now or I'll be here for hours...
---
Dum de dum.
Freedom is not the license to do what we like, it is the power to do what we ought.
After a year of College I had decided that I could do better in the outside world as I was learning "nothing important". Luckily I landed a job as a night operator / tape monkey at a company that paid for me to continue in college. The person I interviewed with basicly said "you're a smart guy; you don't want to hurt yourself by not getting a degree". It took an extra year but in the end I managed to get my degree and acculate expirience as I worked through the company (operations -> helpdesk -> systems admin -> systems programming). Since then I have repeated the process getting my MS and eventually my PhD.
I have found that both have their benefits. The degree will get me into stricter environments (banks, etc) where the expirience gets me into smaller companies such as startups.
Sean.OutaHere()
I just graduated from college a year ago and _did_ manage to find a job I mostly like that I learn a lot from, but at this job I use almost NOTHING I learned at school. I'm a hardware geek, and all they taught me was programming (which is useful but not what I wanted to do 9 hours a day). So there was a nice steep learning curve waiting for me when I migrated to the "real world" but I dealt with it and am a better (albeit tireder) person.
That said, I encourage anyone with the means or the will to go to college at least for a couple of years - even if it's community college. Why? Not because what you learn there will prepare you so well for your dream job, but because you will have the time and the opportunity to do all that stuff that you might never want/be able to do again, such as:
-- learn a language
-- develop an artistic/musical talent you didn't know you had
-- meet people that aren't just like you who can expand your awareness of the world
-- fall in love
-- get dumped on your ass hard by a member of the opposite sex
-- how to make and sample a variety of mixed drinks
It's really hard to concentrate on this kinda stuff when you're working 50 hours a week. I don't really miss being an undergraduate (especially around finals time) but I use what I learned there every day.
-jm
------- Insert random joke/catchy phrase here
I was in a similar position a couple of years ago when I was graduating from high school. I decided to go to college for the following reasons:
To get A Degree: Regardless of what degree I came in for... employers like to see a degree of some sort. It shows not just ability but desire to further yourself.
To lean more: I've learned a lot in college that I never even knew I could learn. A lot of this hasn't been from classes (though a lot has) but from people.
College is fun: Lets face it! College is fun! Don't miss the opportunity to go while you are young. Even if you aren't into parties and drinking, there is just a lot of fun to be had when you get a bunch of crazy students together.
The rest of your question was what major should you choose? I attend Rochester Institute of Technology. Much like you, I am interested in network administration/system administration. I don't really like programming, and I definately don't want to do it for a living. RIT has both a CS degree and an IT degree. I finally decided on the CS degree because A) I want to know HOW to program, B) it means more, C) I can minor in IT, and D) I think that I've just learned a whole lot more about computing in general than many of the IT students.
Well, I hope that helps!
At least one reasonable option is taking a part time job as a sysadmin at the college. This gives you the change to learn quite a lot about being a sysadmin and helps cut down on tuition.
I'm a sysadmin. I'm 30. I never went to college. It is the biggest regret of my life.
I've been lucky and managed to get into a high-paying niche area (SAP administration).
As you might have noticed, the market is tight right now. There are a *lot* of jobs that I could do, but I am not being looked at because I lack a college degree. Not having a degree doesn't change the amount of money that I make. Not having a degree does close doors, though.
Screw the work experience, you can get that later. A college degree is a lot harder to go back and make up. Especially if you start talking about being married and having kids. I make (when I'm working) at least 3X what my wife (the teacher) does. I can't just throw that away and go to school full-time.
Do it now while you have no serious obligations. Do it now while you have the time. Screw the debt. If it's not your college education, it will be a house. Or medical bills for your kids. Or something. Going into debt for your education is one of the few debts that's "good"...or at least not "bad". You don't have to go to MIT or Harvard either. Just get a degree in a semi-related field from a reputable, accredited university.
You can teach yourself, or work nights, or do something to get that experience. Don't pass up on the college, man. This is the *best* opportunity that you'll ever have to take four or five years off and get that piece of paper.
Sure, people kvetch about "the college grad who doesn't know shit". Some of it's true. Some of it's jealousy. But it's easy to make up the experience -- you get a job. It's a helluva lot harder to go back and make up the degree. If you spend some of your time learning *outside* of the classroom, you'll be set.
No computer lab worth its name would accede to such demands. In fact, such demands should convince them entirely that you're more interested in flashy-looking paperwork than actual learning, and hence are not a good candidate.
Accepting often-meaningless industry certs does not demonstrate that a department is interested in real-world skills, it demonstrates that the department is desperate for cash and trying to gain corporate sponsorship. Real skills taught by real colleges last far longer than any industry cert. Do you really think a month of studying Swing or MFC is worth as much as a month learning what data structures are all about?
That's why my degree will last for life, but the MCPs who took Visual C++ 6 several years ago are now "uncertified" again, in spite of the fact that the tool hasn't actually changed a bit since then and is still in mainstream use. The vast majority of industry certifications are money-spinning, code-monkey-developing cash cows, and nothing more. (Incidentally, having recently been in the job market myself, this seems to be how they are perceived by employers looking to fill good positions. Compare and contrast with proper degrees, please.)
And speaking of starting salaries, if you think some pro cert is going to get you a higher salary than a degree at the start of your career, you're gravely mistaken. Many places will file you in the circular cabinet without a second thought if you aren't degree-qualified, however many TLAs, ETLAs and so on you write on your resume. I don't think it's going to be hard to beat a starting salary of $5/hour at McD's.
For whom? Not any employers, programmers or sysadmins I know, at any level of experience, that's for sure.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
I'm 22 now, I dropped out of highschool to work full time, as a computer technician. I've since run two companies (both of which failed, but did allow me to earn a reasonable income). And now I'm a Network/Sys admin. I hold the most seinor technical positon in my division. Which acually isn't saying much, I work with people 30-40, some of whom have been in the IT business for years. I can't even talk to them about our own products and how they work, as none of them are very technically adept. The experience has been great, but now that I've reached my peak here (I can't learn much more here) I am looking for work else where. I've had a few phone calls, but no interviews. I know if I got an interview I would be able to prove my abilites, and experience through the way I carry myself, but that doesn't mean squat unless I get the interview. I'm now thinking about finishing highschool (taking an equivelency test), and am now looking at getting certified (LPI, SAIR, I'm already A+). I'd say if you want to work right away, keep up with some level of schooling, and focus on getting all the other pieces of paper you can..
My personal inclination would be to take the job and supplement it with community-college courses, at least to start. Then, if you decide you really want an IT degree, go for it after you have some background under your belt.
There are going to be many things you learn about being a system administrator, by being a system administrator, that college will never be able to teach you.
Oh yeah . . . and of course, you have to read the definitive work on the subject.
Someone you trust is one of us.
College is not needed for most computer/IT/internet careers ... at least not to be able to do them. I've seen too many "idiots with degrees" to ever believe that college makes much of a difference. And this applies whether the career is programming or system administration or network administration.
What college will do for you is:
I may be hiring by the end of the year in a business I'm still trying to get launched. I can tell you this. I'd much rather hire someone coming out of the military than someone coming out of college. Good people can learn new technology. Bad people are stuck in what they managed to learn some of. Learning takes discipline, and you get far more of that in the military than in college. Not everyone coming out would be worth hiring, but even fewer coming out of college will be ... and fewer still coming out of high school. I'll be looking more for solidity in understanding basic logic and strategy, then in understanding any particular system. I'd rather hire a smart person with an MCSE (which is otherwise worthless) than a dumb person with an RHCE for doing Linux administration.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
1) College is the most fun four years of your life. Five if you stretch it. :) If you miss them you will regret it for the rest of your life. You won't have anywhere near the same experience if you go back when you're 30; you'll just be studying (which is what it sounds like you think all of college is. Wrong!)
2) Maybe 10% of what I learned in college related to my major (CS) (and unlike many people, I majored in what I eventually ended up working in.) Maybe 30% total was related to classes I took. That doesn't mean the other 70% wasn't useful to learn; in fact I think it was that other 70% that most made the time worthwhile. Some of it might relate to hobbies you take up and get a lot of fun from. Some of it will be interpersonal relationships (read that how you like. :) Sex, but more than that too. Friends who will last you your whole life. Teachers who will open your eyes to new things, academic and otherwise. More.) Some of it will just be fun and cool stuff you'll never forget.
3) Maybe 10% of what I knew about my major when I graduated, I learned in classes. The rest of the stuff I got because I had four years to essentially play with whatever interested me, with the college's blessing and equipment and assistance (except for the one time when I almost got expelled. :) )
But at the same time don't discount that classroom 10%. Many of the things I learned from classes were things I would not ever have learned on my own, for lack of time or interest or simply not having a reason to go there. Chip architecture and why some types of operations work better than others. Compiler design. Assembly language. Real fundamentals that make the bits and pieces you learn elsewhere fit into a cohesive framework and become workable knowledge. In addition to giving you a better understanding of things you know now, you'll have a more solid base for learning things in the future.
4) Maybe you will find that you like something even better than being a sysadmin. Don't scoff, it happens all the time. Acting. Teaching. Digging up fossils. Blowing up the chem lab. Whatever. Maybe even programming. :) You won't ever be exposed to most of these things if you go straight into the workforce.
5) If you really feel the need to work, you can work while you're in college. Best of all possible worlds. Not only are you getting the experience, you're having the fun, and if you run into a problem at work you have a ton of resources at hand you can use to learn about the problem and how it should be fixed. You can get a job with a company and make (a little) money or you can work at a job in the college and get broader experience. Or both, if you're a masochist.
6) Did I mention that college was fun?
People here who are saying "You don't need college; look at me, I didn't," don't know what they are missing. Sure they have a job. Whoopee. If a job is all you want out of life, fine. But IMNSHO college is an opportunity for a lot more than a better job.
Don't screw yourself. Go to college.
Back in the late 70's, after I had graduated from highschool, I needed to get some work to try to pay my way through college. I ended up with a job working in the operations group at a local datacenter. At the same time I was taking a couple of programming classes at the local community college. Through a series of "being at the right place at the right time", and applying myself, I ended up in the systems programming (systems support) department. Within a year I was responsible for the full maintenance of the operating system (large mainframes).
So... there I was, 19 years old, working full salary for a national retail company, with the responsibilty of ensuring that their mainframe systems ran. The support department had about 12 people in it, divided into 4 groups -- across operating system and product lines, and I was one of the lead programmers.
Today, I'm still doing systems support. I've switched jobs twice. First time was because of a chance to move to a part of the country that I had always wanted to live in. I was hired as a senior level software developer (I had picked up quite abit of programming skills). However, after 5 years, the company did a major downsizing and the entire department that I was in was let go. I was able to pick up a new job fairly quickly doing system support work again (which I really prefer).
However... now that I have said all of that...
I never did get to college for a degree. Most of the people that I currently work with do have a degree (or two). The only problem that I've had in terms of work was getting my foot in the door. My resume is quite impressive (large varity of skills, lots of leadership stuff, etc.). When I was layed off I had quite abit of trouble landing interviews. I had one company call me saying that I had all the skills they needed, but they had a company policy to only hire people with degrees. The job that I have now, was because I had some contacts inside that knew my work and knew what I could do.
So for me at least, the lack of degree hasn't been much of a hinderance in terms of the skills I need to *DO* the job, however I suspect that if I need to hit the streets again, there might be some problems getting my foot in the door at some places without a slip of paper that says I spent 4 years getting that slip of paper. Yes... I've kept up to date with current trends (Linux, OSS, web programming, Java, Perl, etc.).
So where is all of this leading to....
Well... here is my suggestion...
Quick answer... go to college.
Longer answer...
If you are truely a self learner -- and I mean outside of your central interests -- how is your knowlege of early European history and how some of that relates to what is happening today in the middle east? Have you read a novel that was published before 1900? Do you understand what exactly the Greeks contributed to the world in terms of science and mathematics, and how it is different from China?
If so then skip college -- as long as you can continue self learning in areas outside of work then you will be fine. Build up a good resume of skills, get to know and work *WITH* people at work, then you shouldn't have a problem.
If however you have only focused on being a sys admin and never really expanded your focus of interest to other areas, go get a degree. Go to a liberal arts college and take a variety of classes in areas outside of computers. The goal is to become a person with a rounded out view.
It's not so much the specific technical skills that are being looked for. It is: can you complete a major task on your own? Can you communicate with others? And are you an interesting person to be around for 8 hours a day?
What is mainly wrong with CS in higher education is the lack of standards. It is hard to implement standards, and your typical academic attitude belies the laziness of the tenure system in general.
What magical quality is there with rhetoric 101 in a 300-seat lecture hall that will teach a person to think? How can you argue that such an experience is worthwhile?
The most valuable things I learned in my (comparatively challenging) academic career were discovered outside of the classroom. Then, it was the only game in town. Now, it is not.
College is no longer blindly accepted as a touchstone of personal scholarship. As an academic, prove your worth, or lose what little respect that you still have.
I have performed many performance evaluations in several companies, and no matter how godlike the evaluee may be, any merit increases (what you use to buy your jet skiis, linux boxen for home play, clothes, food, gifts for your partner... ) are typically tied to a set of rules.
rule 1: job title (associate, senior, grand poohba, 10th degree senior fellow of all extreme poohbas) matters
rule 1.1: advancement requires degrees
rule 1.2: see rule 1.1
rule 5: job performance ( unnacceptable thru excellent ) makes a difference, too.
true, its not all about pay & increases. there are many good people working their a__es off in jobs they hate, living otherwise good lives.
consider other things - personal growth, breadth of historical understanding ( yes, many colleges require history ), cultural awareness ( there is a lot to learn from mixed populations at most universities ), spelling, blah blah blah.
If you don't do it for your job & future earning potential - do it for yourself.
but remember, bing drinking kills ( 4 drinks for a female, 5 drinks for an average male ).
if you're not a college bound type, consider, gulp, the armed forces.... not for me, but I have many friends who found it a valuable life experience. I mean it.
High school and some certifications will be a tough road. well travelled, but tough.
-m
a not-so-average male.
One skill I learned in college that I found invaluable is that college teached me how to deal with managers. College forces you to deal with people you think are idiots (either classmates, TA's, or professors) and do tasks you find demeaning and pointless. If you want to be successful in any aspect of business, this skill is a must!
Just something to keep in mind
After their numbers dwindled from 50 to 8, the other dwarves began to suspect Hungry.
I'm a Senior in High School right now and I'm graduating soon (hopefully!)
Hopefully? Who exactly is going to want to hire someone whose high-school graduation was in question?
Whatever you choose to do, consider developing a better mastery of English (you don't wan't prospective employers being turned off by ridiculous typos), or at least find someone to proofread your job applications and resume.
I would say a degree is a must. As for type of degree if you can find a CS or IS degree with an emphasis on security I think that would have enormous potential leaving the market. I work for a large consulting company and that is one area that is only growing.
According to an article I read a while ago, a bachelor's degree is about equal to 6 years on the job experience.
Take that for what it's worth.
I never think of the future -- it comes soon enough.
- Albert Einstein
I am a 20 year old network engineer at a CLEC in california. I worked part time from the age of 15 until I turned 18. I have been takeing 12 or less college units per semestor every semestor since I have graduated high school, even summer. Now I have been working full time for two+ years now. I had the same questions as you did, completely. I would have to say working while going to college is an excellent path. College is just a piece of paper, and work experience is good as gold. I started out in this job plugging in computers under desks, and fixing the latest outlook propiagated viruses, and I through hard work have moved into a network r&d position. I can say you definitly do not want to take the easy way out. Take it like a man, and your life will have more meaning and be much more rewarding. good luck.
I went to DeVRY... 3 years solid.. 9 semesters.. partying included.. gave me a great well-rounded education.. a B.Sc... and a future.. I can always go to University or business school with this degree... BIG CAVEAT.. it's gobs of money to go... I'm still paying 6 years later.
TETO
(1st sig) If this were a snappy sig, you'd be reading it right now. (2nd sig) I'm a karma whore. >Insert FUD here
...JohnDenver gets it!
"A microprocessor... is a terrible thing to waste." --
GeneralEmergency
Why the hell would you aspire to become a systems administrator? Most people don't aspire to be systems administrators, they just wind up there because they find that it's the only computer job where ignorance, vanity and anti-social tendencies are tolerated, and where they can fulfill their needs for petty power mongering over other people without having to work their way up into management. Now, don't get me wrong: a good systems administrator is worth his weight in gold. Unfortunately, I've only ever met one or two people who I would consider "good" systems administrators, and they were actually programmers who wound up taking on sysadmin responsibility when it was necessary. Full-time systems administrators are, as a general rule, the lowest form of life. It's a job that would delight an anti-social high-school weenie who likes to think he's smarter than eveybody else and likes to boost his tenuous self-esteem by being bossy. This is how most system administrators act. Please, don't be That Guy[tm].
* mild mannered physics grad student by day *
* daring code hacker by night *
http://www.silent-tristero.com
I went to college for 2 (out of 4) years in order to receive my BS of CS. I had a great time, met alot of people, learned what "socializing" and "having a life" actually mean.
During my summers I worked as a SysAdmin. I learned alot there too, more that's pertinent to my current job than most anywhere else I worked.
I left school when a number of factors came together, lack of money, the college screwed the entire CompSci curriculum when they went Medical, and a distinct issue with passing "core" curriculum. BTW - "core" courses can be your downfall, try to find out what courses will be required by your institution and whether you'll have any chance of passing them. (For instance my "Environments" class (tree-hugging) required that each student form a non-profit corp whose aim was to "help" the South-Florida environment.)
I've been an IBM mainframe "computer operator" (equates to the monkey that loads tapes and pushes the button), a programmer for the same company, and an ISP tech rep.
You might ask where I am now... Systems Engineer for a VAR, I have more certifications than wall space. 6 figure salary, fully paid bennies (not a penny out of my salary), paid trainings/certs all over the country, and exposure to the IT departments of companies like: Aetna, Fleet, The Hartford, Mass. Mutual, CT State Dept of IT (cringe), Pfizer, and my most fun client yet... the WWF (yes, wrestling).
So here's the bottom line: I am absolutely certain that if it weren't for what college taught me *outside* of the classes, I wouldn't be where I am now. I don't intend on finishing my degree, then again I'm 26 and don't plan working much beyond 32 or so.
College is fun... at least while you're not in class. Oh yeah, and I also learned and did more programming outside of course material than within. Try not to get addicted to caffeine, it is possible to stay up over 70hrs without it.
The purpose of college is life experience, and task qualification. Let me just say, no-one in their right mind should try to get through the time period from when they turn 19 - 24 in a steady job enviroment.
Ignore the early loss of youth, there are fluctuations in mood and objectivity that will occour in that time period that WILL alter your ability to concentrate on job tasks. They WILL detriment the consistency of your efforts, and could get you slotted as a B level individual, lower wage increases, less need to train, more likely to get laid off.
Now, that said, from the position of reaping the rewards of your youth.. it depends. Real World experience is invalible for the 'hands on' jobs, but in the long-term higher level design and management positions will not be open to you based on your background. Night school is an option, and I don't feel that lost prestige will hold you back if you can get 10 years of working experience. On the other hand, 'self employed', and 'various contract positions' do not count as work experience.
College offeres the advantadge of allowing you the oppourtunity to 'pay for play', give them money, for a little bit of practical experience. Plus all the intangables, Life-long freinds, one of the best places in the world to find someone to be a life partner, and a nice little shelter from reality for a few years.
If it were up to me, I'd go back. But then again I dropped out and got a job.. now I'm doing night school to support my switch from engineer to management.
-GiH
However, not finishing college has been something that has haunted me since the day I walked off that campus.
Answer:The Geeks from MIT with their degrees.
Why? Because these geeks will eventually have the experience, the degree, and the status.
IF you dont have a degree, Have fun competiting with the third world programmers and technicians in China, India, Pakistan, etc.
IF you didnt read the last slashdot article, Americans are being fired so these cheaper equally qualified workers from outside the country can take their job.
I recieved posts from people who said "Well to compete you have to provide better value"
The only way to provide better value is to have a better education. People in Pakistan may have more experience, more talent, and more skill but you still have to survive! You wont always be the smartest and best, you have to survive anyway, and when you compete with people who may be BETTER than you, you have to work HARDER than them to win, meaning getting your degree.
Lets see what slashdot thinks.
Quote from rmjiv rmjiv's profile
How about providing a better value? There will always be costs associated with manufacturing products at distance from use. This is as true of software as it is of cars. For cars, the extra costs is in the delivery. For software, it's in the communication of requirements (and the changing of requirements, etc.). If value = (quality / cost) then you don't necessarily need a lower cost to provide equal or greater value. I suggest reading Yourden's Rise and Resurrection of the American Programmer. It's an interesting read, and might even cheer you up.
BTW, if you can't provide a better value, why do you believe you deserve a job as a programmer?
She came sliding down the alleyway like butter dripping off of a hot biscuit."
Quote from Whitehawke WhiteHawke's Profile
Actually, I'm not worried about this for a lot of reasons:
1) As a skilled and reasonably experienced (7 years) developer, I'm better than most (though certainly not all) of the developers from the Third World.
2) I can actually interview on-site. Making a face-to-face impression is a HUGE advantage.
3) Companies don't even like to let people telecommute if they have a choice; they like to have people in-house, under their eye.
--Dave Storrs
These are some of the opinions of people at Slashdot, it seems they all see my point. Get a degree, or be replaced by Muhammed from Pakistan, or Wong Fei Lee from China.
You dont have a choice. Its survival of the most educated not the most talented.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Now, I can't tell you what you should do, but I'll tell you how I became a sysadmin.
Total computer classes taken: 1 (BASIC programming in HS)
After highschool my father gotten me a job with the city doing lead paint testing (ew), during which I began to fall in love with computers and after working there for three years, I decided that it wasn't what I wanted to do.
I wanted to make web sites, bought a book on HTML and UNIX for dummies. I saved up some cash, quit my lead testing job and offered my small local ISP to intern for free with the hopes of getting paid and learning something. After a month they began to pay me minimum wage to do techsupport and answer phones, half a year later, after learning some about web design, I got a raise and began doing that. About a year later after learning some about apache and perl, I got another raise and began helping the sysadmins do some grunt work. Another year goes by, and after learning some about systems administration, I recieved another raise, and was the assistant systems administrator (aka systems administrator).
Shortly after this, and learning yet some more about sysadmining, I quit my job there and began working as a sysadmin/programmer for a constuling group.
I suppose you should keep in mind that it was my profession and my hobby. I basically worked and learned then came home and learned some more.
Now I'm basically doing what I love doing. Without any formal schooling.
I hope this helps.
If all that you are interested in is running a small companies network or run CAT 5 cables around an office for some company then all you need is the standard certifications.
But if you want a high paying job in a large company, then a computer science degree will be what you will need after which you get your standard certifications.
What attending college shows to an Employer is that:
1. You can handle a challenge.
2. You can handle stress, In which there is a lot when you have a exams in all of you classes and have to study late every night to get the subjects nailed down in your head.
3. You can do paperwork. About every day in some classes you will have to write a paper on something.
4. That you can carry a project to the end. Completing college shows that you can finish a task that is set before you.
Wise men speak because they have something to say, Fools because they have to say something!!!!
Couple of issues with this post.
1) His last name is Spielberg. What was your grade in spelling?
2) The fact that he is trying to get his degree does not mean that he can't go on without it.
Bill Gates does not have a degree.. maybe if he goes back to school he can learn how to double his money eh?
I don't have a degree and I spell better than you..
---
((( In Stereo for the Hearing Impaired )))
Believe the hype about the sheepskin: it's a key that opens doors no matter what's written on it.
I have an English degree, and I'm a sysadmin. Did we cover any of this during my course on the 18th Century English Novel? Prolly not, though I slept through big chunks of the thicker Penguin Classics. Did I choose that major because I wanted to be a high school English teacher? Uh, no thanks. However, in college I met a friend (hi, Cherie!) who got me a job that, six years later, had carried me past graduation (employed, with a little seniority) into a field that I later left (publishing) with exposure to lots of different stuff (hi, Miguel!).
My bosses were happy to stick me in any department in the company, and so I got to see everything. (Hi, you jerks who laid me off!) That breadth was useful when I was talking to prospective employers, and I got more and better interviews from other B.C. alumni when I went job-hunting. Far from decrying that bias, I used it to counter-balance my lack of a CompSci degree.
Now I have a decent job, close to home, doing something I like. Someday I'll get tired of doing system administration, but then I'll move on to something else. Not teaching English, mind you, but I'll still be "using" that degree.
You don't have to go to college to get a (decent) job. But that's not why to go. It's a great big world-wide club, and this is your chance to join. This decision, for or against, will follow you your whole life.
I'm 47 years old, with no college degree. I left a good university in my second year, for various personal reasons (but was still in good standing and had good grades). Since then I've done a lot of stuff -- developed operating systems, designed languages, wrote compilers, launched businesses, run my own company for over 20 years, yatta yatta yatta. Also done lots of non-tech stuff: raised orchids, worked as a musician, traveled, launched a restaurant. And I'm pretty widely read, etc. But at the end of the day, I regret having to take the path I took. For 10-15 years, I kept expecting to go back to school after I dealt with immediate priorities. But eventually, that chance dried up.
I've known quite a few old farts who went back to school in their forties; but they've all been pretty lame in my experience, and I don't really want to be one of them. And besides, I still have other stuff to do. I didn't miss out on the intellectual/educational side of life (I found that outside of college) but on the social/cultural/personal-network side.
College can be a grind and a waste; but if you use the time right, college can give you a breadth of vision and experience that you just won't get if you're knuckled down on the job for ten years. So please think about this carefully. You should be in no hurry to work as a sysadm -- those jobs will always be there.
-- We all have enough strength to endure the misfortunes of other people. La Rochefoucauld
Hey man,
;-)
Are you a terrorist? Sure sounds like it!
(Damn terrorist founding fathers!)
College can help getting your foot in the door.
I did not go either (am 32) did 4 years doing
local lan installs etc. then headed up an IT
dept for a school district. We went from about
200 computers to 2000+ while I was there.
I am now working as the sysadmin/network telecom
guru for an airport. I now have 12 years of experience,
with everything from Lan/Wan design
through OC-3 circuits....
It can be done, but it is harder without the degree. I would recommend whichever way he goes to
work on INTERPERSONAL skills!!!
I have found it is not always what you know but WHO you know that helps. Sad but true.
PS anyone got a job opening? HA HA!
Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
Just forget al that crap... put up a porn site... what are you crazy.... got to school... its for more than learning. There is alot of experience gained at school that ain't taught in class. yes other than how to use a beer bong. school is only as good as you make it. there will be plent of time to work in your life... use this time to learn and have fun.
"bow down before Me!!"
There's lots of pressure to start your career, and stop being poor. Every year you put it off though, it becomes harder to return. Don't just look at college as a career move. It'll probably be the last time in your life that you're surrounded by young people of your age with the same concerns and goals. It's an opportunity to open your eyes and mind in ways you'll never find anywhere else, or at any age.
Look for a college as far from home as possible as you will benefit more. Don't worry about the expense - just made the last payment on my student loans, and I consider every penny well spent, although I wish I hadn't worried so much at the time as it really hasn't me since. If you feel really adventurous, look for a college with a foreign exchange programme - that's the easiest way to go and live overseas for a year. You might even be able to work when you're there and earn some extra beer and travel tokens. This is the best way for you to find personal challenges that will live with you for the rest of your life, no matter where your career goes. It'll help you develop a wider and more balanced view of the world.
If you choose to work now, be sure that you won't have regrets in 10 years - I know a lot of people who've had early mid-life crises by the time they hit 30 as suddenly realised they went from being a student to a worker and have lost out on life and some of their youth.
- attend your local Humungous State University in whatever major you like
- get a job as an assistant in one of the campus computer labs
- cultivate relationships with some of the faculty and staff
- jump from the lab assistant position to a sysadmin position based on recommendations from faculty or staff
- upon graduation either get hired directly by the department for which you were a student worker, or use your experience on you resume (or use your faculty contacts to find a job outside the universiy: many faculty have their own private sector contacts that they can tap for you, if you ask nicely).
You won't find that any of the available degree programs relate directly to system administraction, but the experience you can get at a good university, in terms of exposure to a wide range of computing platforms and familiarity with office politics, is invaluable.You will also find that, after a certain point, you can't learn any more about the craft from books: you need to have mentors. Working as an assistant sysadmin in a university is an ideal way to get exposure to large pool of experienced sysadmins, many of who are more than willing to share their experience.
(Of course, the moral of the story is: It's not what you know, but who you know, that counts)
I have a different viewpoint which stems from experience. Primarily I went to University when I was 17, straight after HighSchool. I took a few courses from the Faculty of Medicine, Bio Science, and Computer Science. Basically 3 years or so. I never got a degree, But I'm stuck a year into each program or so.
I found a job last year and I've been working since. My mentality, I'm going to get a few pieces of paper on the wall (ranging from BrainBench's ICQ cert to Cisco's CCNA/CCNP). These can be acquired through part time study at a local college or technical school, you can even challenge them if you think your ready.
Some employers will even pay for your courses; I am a self-employed contractor thus I must pay for it myself. It's not a bad thing, because I can claim any education as an expense and write it off. It pays to be incorporated as I can claim a lot of things as write-offs, thus saving me money in the end.
The trouble is actually getting a job. Most employers will not hire someone straight out of highschool unless you have a definite proven skill. BUT don't kid yourself, even though an employer asks for an A+ or MCSE, generally going to school just to get those certs is at times usless and detrimental.
** If your not into computers, don't start one day.. Do something else **
I was one contestand for this position along with 4 others. Three of them had their A+, two of them had their MCSE, and one of them had some courses and a NET +. I had no papers - yet I still got the job because they didn't know sh!t all. (ie: What elementary program do you use to tell that a remote workstation is connected to a network?? -- ping). They couldn't answer something as simple as that. Very interesting? Why spend the 10k on the certs if you can't apply the knowledge.
Certs are good to back up your knowledge. The only MCSE certs I would even remotly think of getting are for server related apps (Active Directory, TCPIP, SQL, blah). It's good to have - but I'm not going to worry about getting them. I want my CCNA though, as that is not only a certification - it is a full course and skill set.
School vs. Work. Here are my reasons:
- You earn $$ *NOW*. (Get 100k saved up in an offshore bank, poof - you've just paid for your retirement. [Compound interest is a wonderful thing over 30 years at 10+% interest/annum]). I currently make ~50K/year (no school). I save half of it - over 4 years that's 100k. My scholarship will pay for my schooling.
- You learn. When your paid to learn something you generally always succeed rather than school where your paying teachers to piss you off. Currently I've learnt half a BSc and almost a full MCSE while working.
- Working is fun. Honestly, Depending on environment (I work for a super pimp engineering company). Golf games, Pool Tournys, Just fun stuff.
- A kick start on 'life'. Rather than withering away in school until your 25-30 and then getting a job, your earning potential is ahead 10 years of everyone else.
Hmm. But, the choice is up to the individual. The opportunities are endless - and are not regional, they are global. I currently have a few interviews in europe doin Network Admin, so yea.
Choose life.
-- irs
1) Even the smallest private schools have heterogeneous network environments. You can get a job at the help desk/computer services and have better "toys" to play with then if you got a good MCSE-type job at a company with a small handful of NT servers. 2) Don't forget that college puts you along side other talented techies. In the real world of sysadmins... you're often amongst people who don't care. 3) It's actually quite ironic... if you're good enough now to get a good paying job without college... I'd be MORE inclined to tell you to go to college!!! Many valuable people have degrees outside of computers, and yet have great technical aptitude as well. These people make more money than sysadmins. Besides, college will pass quickly, and you will be making good money soon enough. College can only improve your perspective and long term options. Try a good liberal arts college in a decent city. P.S. Try to find your main motivation for work. Is it problem solving, designing, organizing or working within organization, etc. Don't get hung up in a certifications and the narrow views on your talents they create.
i'm sure you live near one of the 23 university's doing this program ... http://www.nsa.gov/isso/index.html and i'll have a guarenteed job upon graduation with the NSA either in d.c. or cali. not bad and instead of workstudy i work for area firms and admin their computers granted some nights i don't sleep very much but hey it pays the bills ... only drawback is the NSA owns you for 2 years after grad :(
The first part of any hiring process is the review of resumes. If competition for the job is high, the employer must develop criteria for narrowing the field of resumes to a few interviews. Most, if not all companies use applicable degree as one of their criteria in that situation. More than once I've seen some idiot in HR pass over a more experienced, more qualified candidate becaues he/she didn't have a degree and there was a stack of resumes to go through. Trust me, the HR staffer doesn't understand the alphabet soup of techie qualifications -- and he/she is looking for any reason to eliminate you from the stack of resumes and get that interview list down to 5 (or whatever). Personally, I'd rather not take the chance.
You'll likely never be penalized for having a degree, and it's also likely that some time during your career you'll be rewarded/promoted (in part) because of it.
When life gives you lemons, make lemonade. But when life gives you crap, please don't make a beverage out of it.
While it's true that hands-on experience and proven skills still count for more than degrees and certifications in many circles, a college degree is almost a requirement for getting a job these days. In fact, I'll even go so far as to say that it doesn't matter much *what* your degree is in (provided you have said experience and skills). I know an IT manager whose degree is in pre-seminary work; however, on his resume, he just lists that he has a B.A. and leaves it at that. And doors still open for him.
It bears repeating, so I'll say it again: A college degree is virtually a requirement for landing a decent job these days.
Besides, you may find it an enriching experience that your previous schoolwork doesn't begin to compare to.
If you are as lucky as I am to wind up with a great job with the government you will not be able to advance post a SA2 without a college degree. So that caps your salary at about 50-55K. But if that makes you happy...
I'm a 30 year old computer geek that has gone through the exact same questions and wrestlings, and this is what I have learned the hard way. I am just entering my final year of college right now. I have worked about 5+ years in the field, and even now that I am done with college, I haven't really learned much more for the areas that I want to get into than I knew before going to school. In fact, one of my teachers even admitted to the entire class in our database class that I probably knew more than he did. Knowledge is great, but it isn't going to get you very far and isn't going to get you the juicy jobs that you want. I haven't had a really hard time getting a job because I am so good at what I do. On the other hand, some of the best jobs that I was really drooling over and very capable of doing a good job of, wouldn't even give me an interview because a bachelors in CS was an absolute requirement. Yes, I know more than most people that have their degrees, and I often have people calling me for help that graduated years ago, but that little piece of paper opens up a lot of doors that you aren't going to get into otherwise. You can also count on making at least $10-30,000 less per year than you would make with the degree. I used to think that I could get by without a degree because I am so much better than the average computer person, and even better than most computer geeks. I have had so many doors shut on me despite it, that I am back in school taking classes that aren't teaching me very much at all, and racking up student loans while trying to support my wife and four kids because the degree is so important for the good jobs. I would very, very strongly encourage a degree. You will make so much more money in the end and have so much better of a selection of jobs that it isn't even worth wasting your time doing anything else. I really wish that I wouldn't have procrastinated it so long myself.
I took five years to get my degree, and spent 3 of those years working as a sysadmin for the university. Those years at the university gave me exposure to every piece of the IT infrastructure: Workstations, hubs/switches, routers, servers, dial-in modem banks, and the various upstream interconects (T1, etc) to the rest of the world. I wrote server daemons, clients to talk to them, and patches for open source software (before we called it OpenSource) we were using (Samba). In other words, I got to do just about every type of sysadmin task, right down to pulling cable (COAX!). Now that I'm out in the "Real World", working for a company with over a thousand "IT" employees, my job description is pretty narrow. I don't have responsibility for networks, ISP's, Mail servers, etc. BUT, since I've seen it before, and in many cases even configured it I can troubleshoot problems better than most of my peers. Peers who have good skills, but have a narrow range of skills as they've transfered into IT from other areas (manfuacturing techs, admins, etc). Because of the range of skills I got at school, I have much more autonomy in choosing the projects I get to work on since I have some experience to contribute in so many areas. That abillity to choose my work is what keeps my job fun. The breadth of knowledge you can get at a college or University will serve you well young Jedi.
Go to College
If you think you can get ahead by skipping college then you are in for a BIG FAT SHOCK
Without a College Degree you are still just a High School Lackey and that's all you will ever be. If you can't cut College, then I would suggest the Navy Seals or equivelant.
There are too many kids out there who think they are hot sh#t just because then know their way around a computer. But without the back ground training and education, you will always be readily displaced by someone with a real education.
Even if someone can prove you don't need a College Degree to do your job, you will need one to keep it. HR will always assume a College Boy is smarter than a High Schooler.
It's disturbing that you are even thinking you can get away with this as a career path. What's more disturbing is the number of people who think you can do it. That's BS and if they don't know it, they will soon enough. You will forever be limited in what you can achieve without a College Degree unless you:
I hope that the "hopefully" comment in the original question was a joke... if you're seriously in danger of not graduating high school, you need to do some soul-searching before thinking about college...
1) It's a fact of life that no matter how good you are at what you do, some folks will require you to have that piece of paper. Having a degree will almost certainly provide you more opportunities than not having a degree. Today it may seem you have "enough" opportunities at your feet, but you never know what the future holds.
2) CompSci and EE are not your only options if System Administration is what seems to interest you. Consider a good "Computer Technology" program that not only teaches how to write shell scripts, configure, servers, etc., but also emphasizes a systematic approach to the "big picture." i.e. One that covers things like meeting business requirements and building integrated systems. The world needs EEs and CompSci folks to design specific hardware and software solutions, but it also needs people who can take diverse systems and make them work together. My alma mater Purdue has a fine Computer Technology program and I'm sure there are many others.
3) College is about more than learning a specific skill set. It's also about learning more about life and interacting with others. It's about meeting people with diverse backgrounds. Some people don't need or are not suited to college, but for others it provides a good transition from living with parents (and siblings) to the real world.
4) Some of the most technically knowledgeable and adept people I know come from military backgrounds. Not having been in the military myself, I can't speak about all the pluses and minuses, but it appears that the military does provide lots of opportunity for folks. Certainly the fact one may end up in a military conflict is a big minus, but at the same time they seem pretty good at taking care of themselves. Might be an option worth looking into...
5) Some of the best stepping stones into a career are the student employment opportunities that exist at larger universities. In many cases they provide valuable experience in leading-edge research or technology environments. The student consulting and programming jobs I had in college were the number one reason I was hired into my first full time job out of college. I haven't slowed down since then...
6) If you go to college, don't just focus on computers. Take a history class, learn a little about music... When you get older you'll appreciate having at least been exposed to subjects outside your prime area of focus.
-z
In Soviet Russia, the Beowulf cluster imagines you!
But don't get a degree in IT unless you plan to program. Get a degree in Business, Management, accounting something different. This sort of dual expertise is very valuable. For one, you will have a second skill set that is marketable, and two you get to demonstrate you have the drive and ambition to earn a degree while working. The business degree is also good because in omst situations you are going to need to understand how these things work if you are a SysAdmin. Your employer will love having a guy who understands the financial impact of purchases and recommendations.
To get to my position in the company, I've had to work really hard for the past 11 years, since I was 16. I've found myself often out of work and at times evicted from my apartments. There is one reason for this. I lacked a paper stating that I am a good worker. I also have worked jobs with great promise and excellent benefits, but my lack of education often caused them to become difficult because I couldn't earn the respect of my peers that did take the correct route.
For approximately 8 months at my current job, I had the hiring/managment responsibility for the system administrator's department on top of my regular tasks of developing software. I've set criteria which haven't failed me yet and when I finally hired a proper manager for the IT department, I left him in good hands with good workers. The criteria I set was simple. Don't apply unless you have at least 2 years of college under your belt with the intention of graduating within the next 4 years of part time school while you worked for me.
You would think this is somewhat drastic, but I'm far worse on developers, I insist on a bachelors degree and at least being enrolled for a masters. There is one reason for this. I know I can count on a college student. I've seen the course work and the curriculum. Most of it is terribly useless. The fact is the college degree does nothing more than prove to me that whoever I have working for me is willing to take on and complete tasks which are just plain boring and seemingly useless. This doesn't mean that I ask them to do so, but it does mean that I can trust my workers to make it through the hard times.
Back when I was job hunting and begging for even a part time job sweeping floors at a computer company just to get my foot in the door later to move up to sys admin work, the companies that interested me such as Xerox, Bell, AT&T, generally the ones which let you play with the big toys, they wouldn't accept me without a college degree. Even an associates in english literature would be acceptible to them.
If you're interested in trying the hard way, keep in mind that even 2 years of junior college full time and a certification wil get you better jobs making more money by the age of 22 than excellent work experience and written recommendations will get you at the age of 25.
Now the most important thing to remember when reading the advice I've given you and the advice of others on this web site is, we can't make the choice for you. But let me assure you that getting a degree in computer science or information systems with something business related to fall back on will get you through the hard times a lot better than just a nice personality and a certificate.
On last thing, do not under any circumstance lie to yourself and figure that "Well after a year if it's not working I'll go back to school", it doesn't work like that. After a year, you'll definately have more responsibities than you can afford as a student. You most likely will wreck any chance of getting back to school if you decide not to now. If you're about 18 years old, figure that 2-5 years of your life now can make the following 45 years of work much less painful. Do it now, get it over with and live a good life.
Ahhh... my college just read what I wrote and wants me to add that without a college degree, when you're around 30ish settling down, maybe working on a family, you'll find that the cushy management job will not be so easy to get without that degree, they'll more than likely pass it to some 24 year old with a bachlors in IS and a few semesters of business courses long before you ever see the nice leather chair.
Its not what you know its who you know. Get to know some big playa's in your area that are in your field of interest. Show them you want to learn and hey, maybe you could pick up an intership while you go to school. Thats what i'm doing but I dont go to school cause I landed this full time graphic designer job. I knew a graphic designer and they were looking for another designer. I was STRAIGHT out of high school, I travelled for for 3 months then went right to work. I would have done the same thing as most people do, college and job, graduate then look for a job. Me, I got the job I wanted right away with no post secondary education, everything I know is what I taught myself and from a few class in high school. I have proven myself here and everything is working out very well.
I went to a decent 4-year University (it's no Stanford, but it's reputation in the area is decent). After 6 months of searching, I've gotten turned down from EVERYTHING. Granted, I only have an MIS degree (let the flame wars begin!), but I've applied for every IT position in the area without success. Eventually, I moved on to apply for anything - secretary positions, retail positions, seminar planner, bank teller, you name it. Turned down for them all, even though I have way more experience than most of my peers (I worked full-time as a system admin while going to school for awhile, which sure beats most internships I've been told about).
In fact, before I graduated, I never got turned down for one single job. Now that I have my degree, I figure I've gotten turned down for at least 60.
Going to college was the worst thing I have ever done. Granted, I might have gotten further with CS or engineering, but with the same experience I can't imagine I'd be that much further...
Ok everyone, beging ripping on my attitude, school, GPA, blah blah blah. I know my potential and thanks to my degree I can't use it.
All employers want is experience and you can't get that in college, so you're basically SCREWED like the rest of us. Kill yourself now.
This flamebait brought to you by the letters F and U.
Kids with their freshly minted degrees get hired on making 2 to 3 times what I am making. I don't have a degree, just 15 years of experience. When I retire, I will not be making what new hire grads will be making. Having a degree makes a big difference. The exceptions are very rare, kinda like snow in Phoenix, AZ.
I have been working in the IT field for some time now with a few certs (CCNA,Network+,Linux+) and have found that moving up the ladder beyond a certain point without a degree is almost impossible. In fact, at the age of thirty I am thinking of finally going to college. Going to college while worrying about mortgage payments, car payments and other debts while working a full time job AND trying to get my studies in is going to suck. I am seriously regretting not going into college right after high-school like I should have done. Do not make the same mistake that I did. Go to college while your young.
Someone else pointed out this works pretty well, but his term was awful short. 2 years isn't enough time to do it justice. Consider at least a 4 year term of enlistment and aim at one of the technical specialties. Besides, it's a great way to see other parts of the world.
:)
I signed up for 6 years to get into the 1 year Electronic Technician school. After I was done with school at the Great Lakes Naval Training Center near Chicago, I was stationed in Hawaii for 3 years, then Guam for about 18 months. Other guys from my class were lucky enough to go "haze grey and underway" and see places like Sydney Australia, Tokyo, Thailand, Madagascar, Naples Italy, etc.
The military takes continuing education seriously. Many officers, for example, will have 3 or 4 degrees under their belt. It's not uncommon for senior enlisted personnel to have master's degrees.
I can speak for my experience in the Navy. I took college classes from the University of Maryland and other institutions while on shore duty. Those classes were available some larger ships as well. I understand that the DoD has even arranged for some classes to be offered as distance learning for smaller commands. The classes are offered at a 90% or 75% discount, depending on circumstances.
If you're not American, the details will be different but the basics will still be there. Running an efficient, modern military is one of the most demanding tasks the human race ever set itself. Any successful military will have the same demands for top shelf, highly skilled people.
Think about it. Some of the best technical training in the world, access to CHEAP college courses, paid for travel, an incredible amount of responsibility at a very young age, the opporunity to work with people from many many backgrounds in as close to a colorblind environment as exists anywhere in the world, and the knowledge that you're serving your country.
The down side includes ungodly hours, relatively low pay, and the very real, if definitely limited, possibility that someone might take a shot at you.
For me, it wasn't even a close decision. I enlisted in March of my senior year to guarantee a seat in the Naval school that didn't open up until September. I have several regrets about dumb choices in my life. My decision to enlist for 6 years DEFINITELY isn't one of them. 19 years after I got out, I'm working on really cool stuff and getting paid quite well.
USN '77-'83
Great Lakes NTC '77-'79
Lakland AFB, San Antonio, Texas '79
NAVCAMSEASTPAC, Wahiawa, Oahu, Hawaii '79-'81
USS Cochrane, DDG 21, Pearl Harbor, Oahu, Hawaii '81-'82
NAVCAMSWESTPAC, Agana, Guam '81-'82
I was thinking the same thing.
I had worked helping my dad's little business with like 50 computers. I could set up sendmail, routers, fix things, databases, whatever. I thought that I already knew everything about computers and administration.
Little did I know that sysadmins barely know more about computers than do normal users. After being in college, you'd see that being a sysadmin is child's play.
And while you may think you know it all, you don't. Most people with degrees can figure out what's wrong better than you because they understand the higher level concepts of computation while not knowing the petty details like configuration file syntax and things like that.
Graduating from college says something about a person as well. Is shows that they are willing to make an investment and are obviously responsible enough to handle deadlines and school in general. There aren't bad traits for an admin.
And anyways, what will you, the sysadmin of the future do when software actually gets a lot better and easier to use and you are no longer needed? whereas if you were some sort of computer scientist or followed some other branch of learning, you could use your brain to solve more problems.
Don't be a fool, you don't know anything.
Suck it up and go to college.
Peace out
one thing i learned is that during 4 years of college, you have a LOT of time to work -- and if you go to a large school, there are usually TONS of computer jobs to be had -- simply because they can't get all of the tasks done with full-time staff alone. i carried a pager and was on call 24x7 for 3 years of college -- but how many people graduate college at age 23 and have 3 or 4 years of production system admin experience, on systems with 4000+ users? not too many!
i think college is the single best place to learn more and get 'real world' experience... you get to leave in a few years and jump into a much different area of the job market..
I knocked up my girl friend shortly before high school graduation. So we got married and did the family thing. I blew my chance to have the college experience. I still did go to school but it was community college then the nearby urban university the whole while I worked full time. So I've seen the college and the work world.
I would strongly advise you to go to a university and get a degree. There is a whole plethera of reasons for going to college other than the pursuit of a career.
Simple people talk of people, better people talk of events, great people talk of ideas.
You'll meet and rub shoulders with people from vastly different disciplines. You'll learn a lot from roommates and professors both. I had pals who were ham radio enthusiasts, psych majors, musicians, photographers, engineers, pilots, computer people, ex-military, ... and a guy who wrote porn paperbacks for spending money.
Don't be in such a hurry to join the Dilbert zone.
I am really sick of this debate myself. Right after HS, I started working right away(actually, I joined the Air Force). I have taken classes as time went by and collected about 2 1/2 years worth of college credit. I have to say 90% of the classes were a waste of my time. Either I already knew the stuff, or I could have learned it a lot faster by reading a book on my own. Of course, you will hear the argument that college is all about the experience. Huh? That is the stupidest reason to go to college. Think about it... That is like saying, "I could learn this on my own, but I really rather mix in some excessive drinking and mid-day naps."
Another problem I have with the college system is the crap courses you have to take. Although my Film History class as a breeze and satisfied a Humanities requirement, I was irritated that my tuition (and a lot of people's tax money) was paying for something so useless. And please, don't tell me the discussions with my peers are invaluable. You either get the clueless type that has never formed an opinion on their own or the type that thinks every discussion should be handled like a Lincoln-Douglas debate.
I also despised the canned courses I got from the professors. You know the type... they use the same syllabus year after year. They even leave the dates on there so you have to cross out 1984 and write in 2002. Of course, many "elite" colleges have TAs teach classes now. And look at the online course that are now beginning to be offered by major universities. They want to charge the same price or even more for a course that could easily be run by an email bot.
After all of my gripes... do you think you should not go to college? Actually, you probably should! Why? Because it is like a cult association. The people doing the hiring suffered through college and they expect no less of you. Your boss will likely have been to college and will use your lack of college as an excuse anytime you get dumped on. Yep... the scam is full circle. So go ahead and suffer through it. Hopefully you can get someone else to pay and you too can stay drunk for the next 4 years.
There is my 2 cents and my -2 karma for today.
btw... I am not doing to badly without my degree. I make 6 figures, but I do still have conflicts with managers because my lack of a degree.
You need to go to college. I went to a 4 year private university, got a job at an engineering company, and also got numerous certifiations as a system administrator from Sun. Certifications mean hardly anything. Anyone who majored in comp sci or another related engineering discipline could get the certificates in a couple of days. Without a college degree, you will have no ability to compete for a "good" job. Almost every hiring manager knows that certificates like Sun Certifies System Administrator can be gotten by pretty much reading a book and playing around on a Sun for a weekend, and then taking the test. Certification tests are almost all memorization and really don't say much about the person's ability. Do you really think your resume would be competitive at a strong company with just a high school degree, some certifications, and mild experience? It won't. Unless you can point someone to some real accomplishment you have received that makes it clear that you are indespensible, your resume will probably not even be considered. And by the way, I worked as a Sys Admin for 1 year and you may want to reconsider. The more and more advanced software gets, the less and less companies need full time sys admins. If you were to decide not to go to college and instead get a couple of certifications and become a sys admin now, you can bet that in a couple of years the only thing you will be the admin of is the cash register at McDonalds! Go to college.
I personally loved colleged. It was great. I think you do need to consider one crucial point: Will you be happy there? Are you considering moving into the dorms? If so, can you handle the environment there? Sometimes it can start to make the Lord of the Flies seem tame... You will have to deal with the occasional drunk out of his mind Frat pledge punching through a window and bleeding all down the hallway until the blood start to soak into your room....
Not to mention roomates. If you are not very social, that could suck, but I guess if you live at home, some of those issues go away.
But you know, I say go to school. I agree with the consensus that four year degrees look nicer, and that sys-admining for the rest of your life could suck.
On a side note, everyone here presumes you are a guy since your nickname says 'chicks hate me"... She could be a she, you know...
But if you are a guy, seriously, chicks will DIG you at school. Its really really easy. Go to school to meet smart women. Meet easy women. Meet women. Am I getting the women through women women women?
--I drink to set the world's difficutly to 'expert.'
-- I am become sig, destroyer of posts.
If membership in the Oracle Academic Initiative belies a desperate, cash strapped department, then will you please explain why every big-ten school is listed under the OAI directory?
This is all a question of independent review of academic standards. Java instruction from Stanford is not the same as Java instruction from MIT is not the same as Java instruction from UIUC et al. With the academic adoption of JCert, these programs would be the same. This is a valuable goal.
Currently, colleges and universities are free to adopt their own CS standards as long as they are not ridiculously lax. Enforced certifications in Java and SQL would tighten things up considerably, and they should be implemented today.
I started college with a dual-major in physics and German. After a year I changed from physics to math. Soon after I wanted to change from math to CS, but wanted to graduate within 4 years so I just got a CS minor (stuck with the German though, it was easy). I programmed for a year, quit because I really didn't like it. Now I'm doing helpdesk work, and hate it.
Only about half the people I work with have college degrees, and most of them (myself included) had no idea what they wanted to do while in college. It has taken a few years of "real world" experience to figure it out, and some serious thinking. After taking some classes at the community college and spending several months thinking about what I like, I am preparing to start law school this fall. I am happy with my decision. However, I would have chosen classes differently and focused on different areas if I had been planning for a career in law rather than in {german,math,physics,programming}.
Bottom line is, college is important, but know what you want to do first. Even if you think you know now, take a few years to work (you have job offers!) before you make a commitment in college. Figure out your own path, get certifications as needed, and go to college when you think it is time, not when people tell you to do it.
A lot of posters are happy to tell you what they would have done or did do. Don't read too much into it. What I would do in your shoes isn't too relevant. Really. Seriously. This problem isn't really so hard. There's pros, cons, and alternate paths. The responses here are the normal, overwhelming, western culture group think--Go to college because it 1) Is Good For You, 2) Opens Doors, 3) Is Fun, or 4) Come on Everyone Else is Doing It! Now, I'm not about to tell you not to go to college, but that you must do a cost benefit analysis. So, here's a few points to stew on:
1) How much will it cost for you to go to college, actual out of pocket expense. Factor in your lack of income over the time you're there.
2) What else could you do with that money? You could travel, get a motorcycle, pay for living expenses while you devote yourself to music, martial arts, or developing open source software.
3) If you went to college, what would you want to get out of it?
a) If it's life experience, reconsider point #2. Note that you could go to college for a year, ride around on a harley for a year, devote yourself to jujitsu for a year, etc. They don't have to be exclusive.
b) If you want skills and knowledge, well, this is a loaded problem. You can get these at college, but it's up to you to take them. The problem is that Universities have a stranglehold on important resources--knowledgeable people, good libraries, and similarly interested people. It can be very difficult to find these elsewhere.
c) There's many other reasons you might want to go. Identify them, and consider how else you might accomplish the same thing with the money you would spend on college. Which is more attractive?
4) You can go to college anytime. Really. But you may only be able to go once, depending on finances. Don't go until you know it's what you want. If there's any doubt, don't go. Wait. Or, go for a year to try it.
5) Actually, whichever you pick, do it for a year, then switch. The only way for you to really know is to try them both.
6) Would you ever really want to work for somebody that will make decisions based on your pedigree rather than your work? A degree would open at least some doors, but as Morpheus said, "I can only show you the door." Would you really want to walk through it?
In short, think about what you want, and put together bids for yourself from various "life paths". If you don't know what you want, think about how to discover this, and put together bids on that. Make sure you limit your discovery period to a time period that you're comfortable with--I mean, you probably don't want to spend 10 years on it, so make sure each bid has an exit strategy.
And lastly, one piece of useless advice. You do know everything. You do have all the answers. The rest of us are disgruntled because we got stoopid and may try and convince you that you don't know everything. Don't listen to us.
I was a sysadmin for 2 years. Now, there are two types of sysadmins.. Those who work at ISPs who get paid shit, work long hours, have absolutely no job security, are disposable and generally are self-taught (and not very well) and there are corporate sysadmins, who are paid very well, but they administer Novell, Tivoli, SAP, etc (in other words, not much UNIX involved.) To be a corporate sysadmin, you basically NEED a college degree; or at least an associates degree from some tech institute. You don't want to be the other type of sysadmin, you're basically about a notch above the janitor.
Fact is though, right now, the sysadmin market is VERY oversaturated. I know a guy who was a sysadmin over at Enron (we all know what happened there) who is now bagging groceries because NOBODY is hiring, and this guy has like 5 or 6 years experience on enterprise hardware (aka he's a guru.) Most of the ISPs have gone out of business or are laying people off. Regardless of what you know, you'll be very hard pressed to find a job, especially at 18 years old.
My suggestion is to go to college first. The job market sucks right now anyway, so now's a great time to go get some skills while losing the minimum potential earnings. If you want to do corporate stuff (where you make decent cash) go for a degree in MIS (Management Information Systems, usuallly in the Business school) or CS (Computer Science, usually Engineering.)
I was one of the first kind of sysadmins, I worked at an ISP and was very disposable. But that was okay, I was only 16 and the business climate was very different. Now I'm in college, and am doing some sysadmin stuff on the side for my school and am still getting paid shit, but again, it doesn't matter. The job is basically just for extra spending money. If I wanted more money I could go be a waiter (seriously, friend of mine who works at Chili's makes more per hour than I or my co-workers make.)
Anyway, my suggestion is: go to college. You're not going to find a job right now anyway, so you might as well go get a degree. And if you still want to be a sysadmin when you get out, you'll have that many more possibilities open to you. It's a no-lose situation.
I hire Sysadmins, I hire Sysadmins with CS degrees. The technologies change daily, so must the skills. A CS degree from a good school will teach you how to learn the new skills faster and be a better Sysadmin.
Certs teach you specific skills, which get old quickly.
On the job training teaches you specific skills too. If you change jobs or the technology changes, you have to start all over.
Go to school, besides, it's kinda fun.
Definitely go to college and get a bachelor's. The subject doesn't matter. The important thing is that you learn how to think critically, and that you learn how to learn. THAT is the true purpose of a college education.
Beyond that, find a senior-level admin who will mentor you (the SAGE organization has a mentoring program). Get a professional, not a vendor, certification (SAGE also offers a professional certification program).
.@.
I'm one of Uncle Sam's dev monkeys nowadays,
and SAing for him can be fun. "Good
work, if you can find it." An 18 year old
out of high school, likely can't.
I did both .. went to college, had a part time job doing system admin/gfx werk/supervising/yada yada yada .. it was actually really cool. The thing that is really nice about college is the fact it is very flexible.. if you want to take classes at night, no problem .. if you want to cram classes two days a week nad have 5 days off, no problem.. Heck, if your finding that your job is taking off, you could scale back your college classes to one or two a semester or pick up a few internet based courses...
.. nah .. do college and get some experience on the side.
Like lots of others said here, college does provide a variety of new and different ways to look at things and could be much more ethnically diverse (which is really cool to learn about different cultures/etc..) and not to mention, it provides a great social atmostphere..
Besides, if you started back in 1997 like I did, I could see the temptation of skipping and going for some easy money, but in 2002
With one exception the persons with degrees in my shop from the VP of operations down do not have CS degrees however they do have degrees so the major doesn't necessarily matter although CS can do nothing but help. Having a degree gets you 10-20% more pay on average and demonstrates to an employer that you are able to thrive in a beauracracy (read: succeed in this corporate environment). That alone makes you more attractive to employers. There is also some age discrimination you may run into which is easily avoided while improving yourself by aging while getting a degree (our security admin is 20-ish and some career operators bristle at how much more he is likely paid than they are). You can also gain valuable skills and contacts by working help desk or computer operations jobs while going to school. If you pick the right shift it's like getting paid to study. Finally, I was promoted out of operations and haven't finished my degree yet. While I'm making it as a junior admin and this career wasn't always my goal, I don't think I would've gained this position much earlier in life than I did (age 30) unless I had posessed a degree. There are always exceptions and more development oriented shops simply want ability in any shape or form alot of companies nowadays are probably using the economic downturn and the glut of applicants to pick and choose people based on factors other than skill set. That means a degreed, regular bather who owns at least one tie and can pass a drug test once a year I'd bet. Good luck.
Yes, do it. Go to college, far away, live on campus away from mom and dad, but don't over do things. I just finished my last exam today and it feels great. Graduation is this weekend. The only thing I'd chagne is get really good grades in high school, get a scholarship or aid of some sort and live on campus. You'll have more fun that way. There are traid offs, the food isn't as good as what mom or dad will cook, and there's no one here but my cat to bother me. What has given me the edge is working part time in my industry for 4 years while getting my degree. That experience combined with certifications and my degree (one certification you don't need to get recertified for!), I'm hoping, will give me an edge. Plus I learned a lot of things that don't apply directly to things but they make you smarter and able to communicate with others better, or so it seems to me.
ben
Do you get frustrated when your friends grandparents call because they can't find thier start button?
You will.
How about working for a complete corporate machine who knows nothing of computers and wants you to keep the server working AND fix counterstrike on thier box?
Get away from this industry. Computers rock as a hobby, but not as a job. There are just too many cert-monkeys runing around, all being led by management types who need to be hit by the Clue-by-Four several hundred times.
Go to college, take business and P.e. and get drunk as much as you can. That'll give you "interpersonal skills" that are regarded so highly AND a business degree... Instant Management. If you become really good and telling people what they want to hear, you could make upper management and get filthy rich.
Over time, the big machines became more able to take care of themselves. Daily motor brush adjustment was eliminated. Better oiling systems were developed. Refrigeration compressors became sealed units. Automatic controls ran the plant most of the time. Fewer stationary engineers were needed. A lot fewer.
There are still stationary engineers. Not that many, and fewer of them every year. A stationary engineer today is usually someone who's responsible for the heating, ventilating, and air conditioning in a large hotel or hospital. It's not an exciting job, it doesn't lead anywhere, and there's a good chance that when the equipment gets upgraded, it will need fewer people and you'll be laid off.
That is the future of the "sysadmin" as a career.
Also, let's have some objective statistics on the subject:
http://www.crn.com/sections/special/ssurvey/ssur ve y01.asp?ArticleID=25726
So far, it hasn't been a barrier to finding a job. In some job interviews, it turned out to be a problem, but it hasn't kept me from finding a job or doing what I really want to do. I'm only 27 now, and maybe it will be a problem later on, but somehow I doubt it.
:)
During my last job search, in January, I found that my lack of credentials made it more difficult to find a job. On the other hand, even folks WITH credentials are having a hard time!
So when I did find a job, I was particularly pleased that my employer is willing to pay for my training. As I write this, I'm sitting in a Learn iT! classroom, undergoing indoctrination into the cult of Microsoft. Bill's tech isn't what interests me most, but with a Microsoft credential, it certainly will be easier to find a job than without one.
Not having gone to college even has advantages, I think:
No Debt - One advantage is that while my peers are still paying off their college debt, I have none. Some folks can get their college paid for by the State or family members, but the rest have to work really hard or borrow.
Free Thought - Another advantage is that by taking my own road, I am less influenced by the dogma of the academic sector. A good part of going to college is socialization. While in school, we learn which thoughts are acceptable and which are not. By eschewing the bastions of academic hegemony, I can look at the world in a more independent way. (I now gird myself for the onslaught of the collegiate masses)
Head Start - since I didn't spend four years or more in school, I have more real-world experience than my colleagues who went to school. This advantage fades quickly, though.
Those are the only advantages of skipping college that I can come up with immediately.
Instead of going to college, I spent a couple of years after high school in service to the nation as an AmeriCorps member. That was an amazing experience--AmeriCorps allowed me to travel extensively in the US, paid for my room and board while I did it. It also taught me a lot about teamwork. But most of all, it taught me about the value of contributing to society; and that isn't something you can pick up in a classroom.
As a techie who has been successful without a degree, I say: do what you want. If you want to go to college, do it. If you don't like it, you can drop out. If you don't want to go to college, don't worry about it. You can always go later.
Whether you go to college or not, don't waste your youth in a classroom and a cubicle, learning to be a slave to corporate masters, so you can buy the widgets they hawk. Get outside and live a little before you settle into a workaday routine. Travel, volunteer, get a fun job--and settle into the college or work routine when you're ready.
Oh, one more thing: a friend of mine likes to say: If you want an education, read a book. Go to college if you want to get laid.
-- Oh, here's the problem. It's an error code ID-10T.
People always change their views on life. One day you're absolutely positive you know what you want to do with your life, and the next day everything might change. You never know.
So even if you're certain you want to be a system administrator, you never know what the future might hold. If ten years from now you've had a moderately successful career as a sysadmin, but you have no college degree, there are going to be very few options available to you. (And despite what some people might tell you, it is much harder to go back to college when you're 25 than it is to start when you're 18.)
As long as you can afford it, go to college. It's fun, you'll learn a lot, you'll meet a lot of hot girls, and it will keep your opportunities open down the road.
And another thing...I want to know who started the rumor that College teaches you how to think! I've met as many boob's who have those very very expensive pieces of paper as I have the self-taught types.
College teaches you how to DRINK, but it does the opposite of promoting creative thought.
and don't get me started on certifications....With a certification you don't even get the lessons in drinking!
lunky> c++; lunky> do{;}
I'm a working-class guy that got a break and was able, through chance, to be able to attend college, then dropped out after my second year 'cause I wasn't sure of the value and my direction. Biggest mistake of my life. It's done nothing but close doors in my face. Get a degree.
There's more to life than computers. College, and getting a "well rounded" education will help you discover that. Sure, you can get a job as a sys admin without a degree, or some other job in IT, I did. But it takes a lot longer to get really good without knowing the fundamentals.
Many colleges and universities offer tracks other than programming or computer engineering. You may have to take a programming class or two as preregquisites, but that'll only do you good. You will do a better job and have less struggles if you have a more detailed understanding of computer science than what you get from certification. Who knows, maybe you'll decide to be a doctor instead.
Having a well rounded education will help you in other ways. Like being able to write intelligible documentation. Learning about other things besides computers gives you something to talk about in social situations where there's not a lot of geeks. Also, most people who will be your clients, as a sys admin, will not be computer geeks. You'll be a lot more help as an administrator if you have some understanding of what your clients are doing.
And college is a great place to meet chicks(or whatever)!
Without an some college education your not going to even get into the front door of many places. Spend the time in school.
College doesnt teach you who to do a job, It teaches you how to learn, how to adapt. Skills come with time
I have an associates, many certs and more years of experience. My co-worker has a bachelors, one cert and less years of experience.
I was told he gets paid more than me because he has a BS degree. For 10,000 more a year go to school.
NO degree + No experience = NO job (especially in the job market now) I don't know any SA's without a degree.
An undergrad degree is a MUST if you plan to work for someone else. Getting a master's is almost a requirement at this point too. It doesn't matter as much where you go or what degree you get as the fact that you have one. Without a degree you:
1. Won't even be considered at any corporation.
2. Will not be able to get jobs that give you any experience that counts.
3. Will have an uphill battle being taken seriously.
A degree just gets your foot in the door... then you have to build up the experience. Installing Linux on your home PC isn't going to impress anyone. You need REAL on the job experience.
Consider this...
Usually it's management or HR does the hiring. They look for just keywords when sorting though the stacks of resumes they get. It's only after they bring you in for the interview that IT gets a chance you look you over.
If the cost or time of going to college is a huge factor for you stay at home and going to community college for a few years. Most of the time the classes are cheaper and easier there anyway. Once you've got all the general classes behind you transfer to some place else.
I dropped out of college with four years of computing and technical writing/development experience and some certification and moved out west to make it big. Two years later, I'm going back to college and I can't wait. You'll probably be able to find work of some kind, especially when the market gets over itself a little (though it won't ever be like it was, duh). But who gets the good jobs? The not-infuriatingly-surrounded-and-managed-by-idiots jobs? Who gets promoted while you keep trying to find ways to ignore the fact that you hate what you do and who you do it for?
In many of my experiences, I knew more than my superiors, in fact they have at times been completely ignorant of whatever it is we're supposed to be doing, but the degree on the resume gets them the corner office - managing you, cubicle slave!
And then there's this: if you can afford college, it's worth it, worth it, worth if for what you do while you're there as much as what you do after. When else are you going to be surrounded by opportunities to just learn, absorb knowledge, argue the facts with experts?
Have the freedom to choose instead of the hope of being chosen. Take advantage of what good there is in our culture. Go to college and don't leave until they make you. Meet girls and have the time to romance them. Get into politics. Schedule all of your classes after ten AM and sleep in while you can. Go to bed at night knowing that everything you did that day was to benefit you.
That's just my advice.
Right now, 4 years is almost 25% of your life. That may seem like a long time.
It's not.
Odds are you'll be out there working for 45+ years. 4 years is nothing. Get the degree. Just make sure you go to a school that teaches you how to think, not just memorize (which, by the way, is mostly what certifications are about...memorizing).
You can make a good living without going to college but I think that it opens doors that may otherwise be shut. That is especially true later in life when the better jobs are more management related. Perhaps the most efficient method would to be a "non-conventional" student where you get some training and certifications, go to work at a help desk (to get experience) and work your way into the System Admin job that you really want. Along the way, take some college courses that will help you and pave the way to a degree of some sort.
Degrees, resumes, and work history really do only one thing, that is they get your foot in the door. Once you are on the job, what you do, what you know, and who you are are what matter more.
There are some companies that will not consider people without the pre-requisites (degrees/certifications) even for in-house promotions. If you are stuck in one of those companies, you have two choices, get it or get out.
Being a "seasoned" sysadmin (15+ years), who went to college for almost 2 years and basically partied and punted a lot of classes (other than doing really well on the CompSci classes), my personal advice would be to go to College.
;-) Of course, I went to an engineering school where out of a freshman class of like 400, there were maybe 10 women. But, I learned a lot of stuff in my 2 years (compiler design maybe wasn't as useful, but the ideas help... but, data structures, EE/CS intro to hardware/software in assembler, LISP, C, IBM370 & 6502 & Z80 assembler).
;-) ). I'd say, do College.. you won't regret it in the long run.
Sure, after like 17 years at it I have a decent chunk of change in my 401K and am making $80k/year, but it was *definitely* a lot harder to be taken seriously starting out without a degree. Now I have the resume to back up my lack of a degree, but it was not easy.
I like the one posted about going to College for the girls
Personally, if I was doing it all over again, I'd have tried harder and gotten the degree. Instead of starting out at $28k/year, I would have started closer to $40k... and probably more now. Being 38, the thought of going back to school *still* crosses my mind (although part of that could be the thought of being around cute 20 year old women
I am completely anomalous. I started out your typical paid-for-crap ISP sysadmin, and worked my way up from there. I found zero use for certifications or the like. I attempted going to a small school near me, but I quickly realized it was a waste of my time and money. (When the professor said, "OSI? It means, uh, ISO backwards" I realized it was time to get out.)
College is good in a respect, I suppose, in that it encourages you to better yourself. I'm continually growing as a sysadmin, and I went from working a crap ISP job to working at places like Netscape and Wells Fargo, administering large Sun Enterprise systems. It came from always asking questions, always reading and researching, and always picking peoples' brains. If you have the drive, you'll succeed either in college or in the job market. The hard part is finding someone who'll take a chance on you. (I did find those people, at the right times, which is why I consider myself to be successful now.)
Technically, I'm not a systems administrator anymore. I did get burnt out on sysadmin work. ("Great. I've been a senior sysadmin at Netscape. Other than management, where else can I go now?") However, I never lost sight of the "forward momentum" needed in the IT world, and took a job that will make me a much better sysadmin, should I ever go back to it.
Point being - you'll learn in college, or you'll learn on the job. The two aren't that different, but how you handle it will be.
A good traveller has no fixed plans and is not intent on arriving.
First and foremost: College! Get your degree, be it two or four-year. I regret not getting mine a lot earlier in life.
Also, one great way that I've found to gain lots of experience is to have one or more hobbies similar to your job. In my case, my skills in amateur ("ham") radio, computers, and general electronics have proven to be a potent mix that has kept me employed.
In short: Be multi-talented. It's great that you want to be a SysAdmin, yes, but DON'T limit yourself just to what you'd need to know as an SA. As one example, study basic electronics (I'm talking hardware level) on the side. Get your ham radio license if you want. Believe it or not, knowing things like Ohm's Law, and how basic circuits work can be of tremendous help in troubleshooting things like network wiring, peripheral problems, etc.
And, while I'm on that subject, learn something about telephony as well! Learn the standard wiring color code and basic switching. Teach yourself something about PBX's, and how voice/data systems interact.
I guess what I'm really saying is: Instead of trying to be a "guru" in one field, try being at least well-informed, and preferably get some hands-on experience, in several. You won't regret it.
Good hunting!
Bruce Lane, KC7GR,
Blue Feather Technologies
First off what type of sysadmin do you want to be? Windows or Unix? I started out as a Windows admin, and then went over to the *NIX world when I came to the conclusion that it is more flexible, fun to work on, and pays more ;-)
With that said. I wanted to go to collage OHHH I wanted to go to collage, but my senior year my dad left my mom with nothing, and ermm. well let's just say I stayed back to help her out. So I worked on learning computers _REAL_ well. I got a full time job at a computer store building pc's ( not exactly what I wanted to do ) Later.. I got a job as a phone jockey doing tech support for a Fortune 500 Company. ( again not exactly what I wanted to do )
I had NO idea that I was going to get a lucky break.. but it happened. I was asked to come be a Unix Sysadmin. and I was very glad to get the opportunity. I have been almost 100% self taught taken some professional classes ( complements of my company ) and done some Certifications.
No Cert will matter if you can't do your job. So all these MCSE's out there that just studied troytec's and took the tests are not as knowledgeable as you might think.
If I had the opportunity to go back and do it all over again. I still would have liked to go to collage for a CS Degree. If you decide to become a Unix sysadmin you will need programming skills ( perl / shell / C ) you also have to have a love of hardware and software. I think Collage is a good time to meet some people that know what they are talking about, not so much for the degree, but for the end purpose of you knowing how to do your job. ( or the first steps that is )
If this is not an option it's not that bad either. try to find a company that is not to big so you will not get lost, but not to small that you will never get to learn. Get to know the people in the *nix community in your area. ( Yes it is like a club ) Surround yourself with _SMART_ people. Go home and learn perl. or C or shell. In the end it will be up to you as to how far you take your skills.
Getting your foot in the door is the hardest and first step, took me almost 2 years.. after that if you work hard, and are humble.. you will go VERY far. I love being a sysadmin, I truly think it's one of the best jobs in the world today. Stay humble, work hard!
first, you should plan to complete a bachelor degree at some time. they're easy, but time consuming.
/etc/* .
first leverage whatever tech skills you have to get some certifications. if you can nail some basic solaris admin or cisco certs, you can $$MAKE MONEY FA$T!!$$ - this is key, because instead of embarking on a career, you should jack around. live cheap and save, take the money and run, go travel. find yourself somewhere interesting and get some work. overseas it is pretty easy to get paid enough under the table to hang out in some exotic locale, working, living, digging the universe.
when you've had enough, go back home and go to school. obhack: create and maintain residency in the state of your desired school while you are away - you blew your fast cash on airfare and beer, so in-state tuition is key. suck it up and get into some comfy student debt. ideally you are a well rounded creative thinker, so try to avoid any CS major. you need any bachelor degree, pick something interesting.
world weary, experienced, degree in hand, embark upon a career. family in here somewhere, can't help you there.
good luck, force be with you, eyes up, wind at your back, no wooden nickles,
so make sure you stand out. Get a degree.
As a network admin I associate with a lot of network admins. None of the Network Admins I know have college degrees !!! Some do however have "some" college credits, but for what. Electrical engineering, journalism, chemistry, and psychology are the areas which my associates were going for degrees but really none of which has anything to do with network admin (you don't need an electrical engineering degree to run CAT-5). Certs are important however MOST are on a finite time scale. So you will have to update them regularly. Unlike a degree which is forever. From my personal life story, my advice: Get a couple of certs, know TCP/IP inside and out (even when IPv6 comes out it should not be different), and take some classes as you go along. A combination of all Certs, College, and Career. By doing it this way you show: A. you have a job and must know something to get it B. you got certified and must know something to get it C. you are currently going to school,employers see this as keeping current in the IT industry, whether or not that is true, that is how employers will perceive it. Also don't forget many companies offer college tuition assistance so that can also help. Best of luck !!!
There are benefits and drawbacks to attending college and to certificates. I am not going to list any of these, as other people have already done so.
:)
I don't have a degree and the only certification I have is as a certified Novel administrator. But I have moved up through a series of ever nicer jobs and get paid a princely sum.
The best reason to get a college degree or to get a certificate is to have a piece of paper to show in leu of experience that you can do the job duties required.
Once you have your first job and have shown that you can do the job duties then neither the degree nor the certs really have any more meaning anymore.
I would recommend that if you can get a job right away, then do so and take a few night classes. I left college 10 years ago and I'm still paying off my wives and I student loans. If you can pay as you go then you will have a lot more money to go around later. This makes it easier to buy your first house and your first new car.
It also shows a lot of dedication to people if you tell them that you don't have a degree but that you are taking classes towards one every quarter. And take the lower level math, english and CS courses at a local tech school, it's a lot cheaper and just as good.
Hey there.
I wanted to let you know that I've been working in Silicon Valley for 14 years and didn't formally go to college. I started at EA as a game tester in 88 when I was in high school. When I graduated in 89 a friend of mine got me into a telcom company and the rest is history. I have held numerous jobs from manufacturing test to software test engineer to systems/network administrator, which I'm currently doing now. My question to you, which is what I was asked when I transition for SW testing to system administration is WHY? It truly is a thankless job. You deal with a bunch of winers all the time. You never get accolades just complaints. My suggestion to you would be to get into the networking side, a network admin. There's a lot of good money to be made there and you don't get the gripes. As far as expirence and certs, I think you need both. I got my Unix sysadmin certification from UC Santa Cruz extension and I'm currently trying to obtain my CCNA. However, I do not reccommend boot camps, at least not the Unitek one. As far as getting my foot in the door, its really based on who you know. In the past 14 years I've worked for 5 companies and it was only EA that I got the job without knowing someone. You need to network. If you have some consulting work, do it! and get noticed that way. Its good expirence and you can start putting that stuff on your resume.
So in a nutshell, not having a college degree has not stopped me from obtaing positions within companies and hasn't really limited my salary yet either, and I make some good money. So hang in there, work on getting your expirence and then your certs!
Hope this helps you out.
Working for a large IT company may not be your kettle of fish but.... if you think you may remotely want to work for a fortune 500 company in the IT segment, you won't even get considered without college. It almost doesn't matter how good you are, you won't. I've done a ton of hiring over the past decade in this area and generally, I won't even be offered applications from the Personnel area that don't have a Bachelors, regardless of certifications. This may not be the bext method but it's what's in place. So... do yourself and your future employers a favor and go.
For anyone who loves computers (not just coding, or any one aspect) and especially all you sysadmins, webmonkeys, and et al... I recommend the Info Tech college at Rochester Institute of Technology. It is a solid program, and improving rapidly. It isn't M.I.S (people with suits who know how to type), it isn't CS, (sitting in a cubicle), SE (designing programs for others to write), CE, (making the circuts to write programs on), or any of the other programs that RIT, and some other schools offer. It is designed for those who love computers.
This is simple.
Go look at the want ads. Notice that under "requirements", 75% or more of them have "Batchelors degree". Once you get to senior positions, it's probably higher. That should be enough for all but the most ardent college hater.
Now remember, in most organizations, there is a layer of HR between your resume and anyone technical enough to appreciate your experience. In that layer, if you don't have all of the listed requirements on your resume, it will be discarded.
If you really want to spend your life justifing to hiring managers why you didn't go to college, then knock yourself out.
This says a lot more than is evident as face value.
First, a degree is not a good investment. (Wrong)
Second, "rant rant rant" (Proves first statement wrong.
(insert attempt to be witty here)
The Bastard Operator From Hell :) Point your browser to google.com or dmz.org and search for "Bastard Operator From Hell" or "BOFH". Learn about beer if you can make a good beer Sys Admins will like you a lot :) Someone give this Bastard Operator From Hell a beer or two. Shit still do not understand go read Alan Cox diary at http://www.linux.org.uk/diary a great linux coder who likes pubs and beer. When in doubt offer the BOFH a beer or two must be a NT Administrator :) Poll whats your favorite beer draft or microbrew :)
Just an opinion... Even if you don't get a degree in computer science, MIS or engineering, you're better of with any 4 year degree than none at all.
Case in point: I used to work in a shop that didn't require a college degree. "Offically" everyone paid the same regardless of schooling (beyond high school). "Unofficially", those folks that had 4 year degrees or graduate degrees were promoted faster and paid better than the folks with no degree or a 2 year degree...
I started, fresh out of college at a higher pay rate than guys that had been there 2-3 years. So skip the school, but keep in mind, you'll have to "do your time" one way or another.
It is quite simple
Haiku should not be funny
Try a Senryu
I can certainly give you my perspective and experience eleven years after I was in your position. I started college and dropped out quickly. I found some crappy jobs to pay the bills and eventually ended up working customer service for Big Brown. After a few years they worked me into a technology position supporting shipping systems. For the last six years I have been doing support work and each new job has given me more money. I did the certification thing a few years ago. From the heart, take this advice: If you want a cert, learn the material on your own and take the tests when you are ready. Don't waste your money on a cert program unless you can find oodles of people to swear for the integrity of the institution. I have been unemployed for over ten months now since accepting a voluntary layoff from my last company. The job market sucks. Even with six years of progressive repsonsibility and experience and a cert to go with it, I can't find a job. After a few months I went back to school and finished my Associates Degree. It may be coincidence, but I am getting more calls for interviews now. These are my suggestions: 1) The job market sucks. Go to school to fill the time until it gets better. Go to a two-year college if you aren't sure what you want to do. Get your basics out of the way, get the AA--you'll have a degree, you won't waste a bunch of money, the job market should be better and you can make a decision where to go from there. 2) If you decide to continue to a four-year college, for God's sake, get a degree in something you are interested in, not just what's going to get you a job. Doing so will keep you motivated through school and you'll come out of it feeling like you learned more. 3) The experience of college can be worth far more than the education itself. You basically have a four-year pass to be completely irresponsible and stupid and no one asks any questions. But get the work done, and keep in touch with the friends you make. 4) While you're in school, get a job doing the kind of work you think you are interested in. Then you'll see if you really like it. If you do, you'll have hands-on experience when you leave school. If you don't, you'll still have time to find another option. That's my two cents. There are all sorts of ways to experiment and find out which way you want to go. You will likely find yourself going a completely different direction than you anticipated.
There is an avenue that would give you on hand experience as well as the opportunity to complete a college education. Man, I hope this doesn't end up sounding like a recruiting pitch.
You can always join the armed forces. There you would get on the job training and tuition assistance which pays 100% of your tuition less books. You get to work with military network control centers and a variety of others tasks that most system admins do. You get a full time paycheck, annual vacation, and the ability to see the world.
The military also teaches followership and eventually leadership traits. Forms the foundations for team building as well. While this is not for everyone, it is an option that could be persued.
In my experience most employers would look at a prior military candidate in a higher regard than most others.
My apologies if this came off as a recruiting pitch, it was not meant to be that at all.
If membership in the Oracle Academic Initiative belies a desperate, cash strapped department, then will you please explain why every big-ten school is listed under the OAI directory?
Any schools that don't have a big football team? I bet DeVry is on there too!
This is all a question of independent review of academic standards. Java instruction from Stanford is not the same as Java instruction from MIT is not the same as Java instruction from UIUC et al. With the academic adoption of JCert, these programs would be the same. This is a valuable goal.
Yeah, they'd all be shitty. Stanford (or any real univeristy) doesn't have a "Java" course. It has courses on data structures which might use Java. And before you start writing your reply, I'm not a stanford student and I have nothing against state schools. I'm very predjudiced against idiots though.
I'm thinking of starting my own programming certification program. The Sitting-on-the-Toilet(tm) Cert. It only takes minutes a day (provided you have a high fibre diet...)
I am not a number! I am a man! And don't you
Why don't you Linux geeks go to college, drink beer and get laid from real college girls.... mmmm beer... mmmmm college girls....
Then after you have partied for 4 years with totally hot chicks, then you can go get a high paying sysadmin job and make a lot of money for when you get fat, old and bald. Because when you are fat, old and bald, you are not going to get laid unless you make alot of money.
Hi,
I took the path you are considering... work versus continued education... I've done well in Silicon Valley without a degree. I spent 8 years at HP and 7 years at Sun... But...
If I had to do it all over again... I defnitely would have continued with education first, career second... Here is why...
Ultimately I found that as my skills matured, I needed to rely on other skills that I had not developed on my own, but would have had to in school. If I had taken advantage of a good college education in Computer Science with a minor in Speech and Communications, I'd have a solid base of fundamentals, instead of a base that is like swiss cheese... Don't get me wrong, I've done well for myself... but I missed an opportunity to round myself out early on.
Besides developing a strong technical background, ultimately the need to communicate very well, both written and verbally is really key to achieving goals, coupled with the ability to be effective in grey areas of the technical profession.
I've had the opportunity to work with a few people that while going to college also worked supporting the campus computing environments. Also worked with people that have done internships at HP and Sun... This may be something that would work for you.
Another thing to consider... is that while you are early in your career path, getting school out of the way early, leaves room to later have a family... without having to go to school too...
In terms of cost of education... The Jr. Colleges in California are very inexpensive, and colleges like Santa Cruz have great extension classes.
Best of luck!
Kramer
www.qbal.com
I work at Personnel Services at Virginia Tech. We handle the hiring of almost all of the Computer related jobs at the school. (Save the faculty positions) The jobs that open are usually swamped by highly qualified people. I'm not talking about the high end jobs either, I'm talking about Website designer positions that pay 30k a year. We get between 40-70 applications of which probably 30-40 meet ALL the qualifications for the jobs. I mean the minimum qualifications and all of the preferred qualifications as well. We get people with 20 years experience and Masters in CS and CE applying for low level positions. When you look at thier resumes these are people who used to be earning 80-100k a year and were laid off during the dot com bust. When an upper level position opens the applications can get up to 100 qualified people. If you don't have an incredible amount of experience and degerees you're not even going to get looked at. Now this probably isn't true at other places in the US, but there is a glut of computer people out there whether they do CS, EE, CE, or SE. I suggest college until you find out what you want to do and the job market improves.
During the Dot Com boom, alot of companies were realizing that a Bachelors degree didn't always mean what they thought. Companies became more willing to hire people without degrees, and even those who were self-taught. It all was a part of their urgent needs combined with the booming economy and that it was an employee's market.
Today it's not the employee's market, and Companies are forgetting that college educations don't always turn out good minds. I started during the end of the boom, with companies desperate to get people. Now, I send out a resume and I doubt that they cared to receive it. Although I am very good at Systems Administration (Linux), and always produce good results, I don't have a degree and 5 professional years under my belt.
My advice is to go to college, the best one you can for Computer Science. Speak extensively with you advisor, and make friends in the real world. Join the local user group(s), and get all the real-world experience you can. Being a SysAd is not just about configuring a system, it's about doing it right. Doing it right means keeping in mind security, budget, and documentation. There are way too many SysAd's who are not only incompetent, and don't tell anyone what they've done to the systems, but also have Senior titles.
From my experience, someone with a title like: Senior Network Systems Administrator is going to need your help to mount a floppy disk under Linux (even though they manage all the UNIX/Linux systems). You have to be good, and you have to care about doing the right thing, and you have to keep yourself on the top of the stack of resumes. This means a college education and a lot of hardwork learning how to secure systems, configure systems, and configure all the applications.
in my experience i cant pay for college without a decent job, i cant get a career job without experience, but employers wont even deal with me unless they see im actively enrolled in school...
and get your certs in the summer time.
________________________________________________
Financial aid helps you buy a house?
Loans for houses = more interest doesnt it? Hows he going to pay it back without a degree and good job?
Time? Not everyone wants to work until the day they die.
Personally, I want to work until I'm in my 40s
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
This is nothing you haven't read before if you've been following this thread:
I'd suggest going to college and part time as a consultant. A degree makes you stand out, enables you more options when unemployed (subst. teaching, for instance, requires a certain amount of college hours).
A few years ago when the market was great, I went the other way. I had about a year under my belt for an Associates and left to pursue my career. It was an ISP that promoted me to web slave, to web programmer, to system admin. There's no doubt that this one company enabled me to learn more than I ever dreamed about technology, while getting PAID! Way so much more information than college could ever provide.
For the past 7 months I have watched people with degrees slowly migrate back into the working world while I ate my Spam and Mac & Cheese (Ok, I lie. No matter how poor, I won't eat Spam).
Two weeks ago I landed a Perl programming job and have started climbing out of the mound of debt I'm in.
You could opt to pursue the career path first and make some money. My advice then? Save. Save as much as you can for that one day when they say.. oops, we meant to tell you, you don't work here anymore.
-techwolf
I don't do this for karma, I do it for cash. It's much better.
I work in the INFOSEC field for a succesful company doing primarily Penetration testing and Network/System audits and I do have a say in hiring.
We have a few guys that went to college but only one had a computer related major. In my experience College is nice if you want to learn how to worthless lectures (meetings) and listen to mindless babble from professors (managers).
Looking at the education that colleges are performing these days I would go with experience , knowledge and drive over anything else.
The best advice I could give you is to start at the bottom and work your way up. When everyone gets out of college in 4 years you will have 4 years experience and if you have used those 4 years wisely then that is much more impressive then an education.
PS. A recent quiz given at the top schools in the states shows that only 60% of all people knew when the civil war took place. Yeah it's not IT related but it's F**CKIN COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
You're young, you're 18 and you look at the old farts you had for teachers and think, I'm wonderkid, I can go pro, why bother with school. I know exactly how it feels, I was there myself 12 years ago.
What you really need to think about is what you want out of life long term. Do you want to get married? Have kids? Have a youth you can look back on as enjoyable? Do something that matters instead of just prostituting your technical skills to the highest bidder? Stop and think about those things.
If you want to have a family go to school now. Going to school when you have a family is very very hard, both on you and your family. You also have to feed the family, pay the rent etc... while going to school, that's a bitch. Having a broad based college education will help you with your kids too, or when you realize that you should have gone to school, do you want to explain how daddy was a dipshit, and didn't go.
If you want to have any experience with members of the opposite sex, go to school now. You will never, ever find a social environment where interacting with members of the opposite sex is so easily done. You won't find chicks while sitting in a server room.
Do you want to make a difference to the world? Go to school now. Get involved in whatever causes you find important, wheter it is joining the FSF, or PeaceCorps, all of that is easier when at school. Also only at school will you easily find communities where you can explore different social ideas. Remember Linux is the product of a college student, Windows is the product of skipping school to pursue business. While Windows makes more money, which one is really making the world a better place?
Finally, you think you want to be a sysadmin. That's fine, but is that what you want to do forever? Do you even know what the alternatives are? Go to school, you may find you really desire to be an IT department manager, or a security analyst, both of those are variations of sysadmins but require much more training. You may also find there are things you really prefer to do. At school you can experiment.
I'll warn you once you go into the professional world, you will make money. Then you'll get used to having money, and you won't be comfortable doing without. Worse, as time passes, you'll get more responibilities (wife, kids, house,...) and then you won't be able to afford doing with less money.
You are young, enjoy being young, go to school, find out what the world is about. Trust me spending four years getting a degree will be more than worth it for the quality of life you have later. I did the work & school thing at the same time, and if it is possible, don't. Just go to school.
Years later you'll look back at what you did in your late teens and early twenties, live so you have something to look back on. Don't live so you look back and can only say, well, I got to my MIDLIFE CRISIS earlier than most.
...you are going to take the experience seriously.
I think a lot of people have given good reasons to go to college, including opportunity to continue exploring options and gain "a piece of paper" that adds mobility. I agree with them.
That said however, don't go to college for the piece of paper and don't go at all if you are going to a school that doesn't challenge or interest you. Yes, the piece of paper will help, and college can be an incredible experience. Yet I think the value of the college experience can be drastically overrated as well. I think learning how to do something useful is the most important thing of all, and that requires a few years of study inside or outside of school. A nonsense college degree that was easy to get won't help you that much.
Also, taking a year or two off from school can be a fabulous experience. Many schools recommend it (Harvard for instance). You could work for a few years and see if the life suits you, and then decide to pursue a college degree.
A caveat: pursuing college studies more than a year or two late is certainly possible, but a very different experience. Also, if someone (such as your parents) are willing to pay for college now, they might not be willing to much later.
I got my CS degree with a minor in Math. I got a job right out of college as a System Administrator for a dotCom (future dotBomb). I hardly used any of my schooling directly in my work. It was nice to know how things worked and why but I new the Sys Admin stuff by learning on my own.
What I lacked was management and organizational skills that they don't teach with CS. That is why I recommend getting some MIS classes in there so you don't start feeling burdened when a different person comes up to you every other minute asking this or that while you are trying to do something else. I got it done but I knew there was a better way.
I am no longer a System Administrator. I was able to parlay my SA skills with my CS degree and get a job at a nice Linux only company as a System Engineer.
Plus, the college experience IS one of a kind.
-- My HARDWARE, My CHOICE.
Even in the overheated IT job market prior to 2000, I was surprised how many companies still held out for at least Bachelors degree. With the considerably cooler market you will enter, you will be in competition with people with experience, degrees or both. Don't handicap yourself going for quick money. It's much harder to find time to finish school (finding time, scheduling i.e. core courses seem to be held when you can never take them, if family happens, etc.) when you've started working full time and may require the sacrifice of saving up, quitting your job and then going to school full time. If you value having a career job and a social life, too, get school out of contention for your time first.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
So what about those of us who started families early, and now have absolutely no time or money for full-time college? I'd really hate to think that I totally screwed myself out of a good career simply because I chose to settle down with a family earlier that most. Right now I'm more concerned with saving for my childrens' education than for my own.
Are there feasible options for someone in my situation, or did I just not-so-delicately put it in my own arse?
You mean like course number cs193J "Programming in Java" being taught this summer? (http://cs.stanford.edu/Courses/Schedules/2001-200 2.summer.html) Perhaps Stanford is no longer a "real university" - shall we observe a moment of silence to mourn its passing?
A master of evasion you are not.
Suicide's not worth it, dude.
Ok, I am in a very similar situation. I graduated Highschool 2 years ago. At that time I was working tech support for an ISP. I then decided that I needed to go to school. My boss offered to pay my tuition at college on the grounds that I would come back and work for him during the summers and when I am finished college, I will become the sysadmin. Well, I just returned from my first year of college and I must say.. HUGE WASTE OF TIME. I was enrolled in a 3 year computer engineering course. The information that I was taught was pretty much completely useless. I found that I was actually getting behind with general knowledge because at the ISP I could research the equipment we used, experiment with new equipment etc, whereas at college I was dealing with BASIC BASIC UNIX skills running on a HP-UX machine, or learning how an ISA bus really works. I decided to drop out in March after discussing the idea with my boss. My boss was more than happy when I said I wanted to drop out and do some certifications instead. His attitude is: "All I care about is if you can do your job when you come back. Which I know you'll be able to" We had discussed the idea of me being promoted to SysAdmin when I returned from college and he knows that I can do pretty much everything we have here except that I'm a little rusty with routing technologies (BGP, OSPF). So, my final decision... Im pretty much done the Sun SysAdmin certs and I'll be doing cisco certs in the fall (even though we only use one cisco router here). That way I will have all the routing theory I need whereas I already know many UNIX/Linux based systems inside and out, the Sun cert is just so he will be happy. Im not saying that many managers have the same attitude as my boss, but it would be nice if they did. If you can demonstrate that you have NO PROBLEM whatsoever administering several LANs/modem shelves/switches/vlans/wireless networks etc etc etc then you should be able to have the job. I talked to many 3rd year students before I dropped out of my course, and the knowledge they had wouldn't get me ANYWHERE. Mind you, they will probably land a job, but what are they going do when something goes wrong? Without the experience that I have now (a few years doing tech support and slowly making my way up) they would be lost. To hire a kid fresh out of college as a sysadmin is kind of a silly idea. Sure, they might have passed their multiple choice exam on networking technologies or systems administration, but what do you do when the sh*t hits the fan and there are some crazy problems on the network? You cant go to a book and find the answer. The kid thats been self taught by playing around for years as a teenager and screwing up mom and dads computer or the home LAN will know what to do. "Oh yeah, I remember when this sort of thing happened a couple of years back... no problem!" After you've broken a bunch of systems and pieced them back together you tend to get a very good understanding of whats happening or what could be happening. You also have played around with different configs and know how to set things up optimally instead of how your college textbook showed you how to set it up. I know this because all my assignments (programming, UNIX thoery, etc) were done MY WAY, the obviously bettter, more effecient way, instead of by the book) This may all be mindless banter but If I was a manager and I was presented with 1) A kid fresh out of college with a CS *DIPLOMA* or 2) A kid that lists off a bunch of OSs that he/she knows, network technologies that they've played around with, projects (coding, security, etc) that they may have worked on as a hobby etc, I'm going to pick the kid that talks the talk like its second nature. BECAUSE IT IS SECOND NATURE. You can't just go to school, pick computers as what you want to do and then be excellent at computers. You have to be legitimately interested in them and how they work, which is what you find when dealing with someone who is SELF TAUGHT. Thats proof that they really are into computers.. i mean they spent YEARS of their OWN TIME learning everything they could about them and you can be pretty damn sure that they are going to have the attitude of really trying to impress you and showing you that "well, we could do things this way, but I've done this sort of thing before and it may be a lot better to do it THIS way." This is only my opinion of course. Gotta get back to work ;)
I am a government contractor in network, security, and system administration, at a large government facility. I can tell you that, although I got on as a contractor with a CIS degree, since I don't have a CS degree, I cannot take a job with the government as a computer scientist. That is just one example of how it hurts you. Although that may not be your short-term goal right now, one day you may have the opportunity to work in a research-related field where they not only care IF you have a degree, they care what KIND of degree you got, and even how many math or computer science courses you took. I'd say getting the 4-year degree, if you can do it, in computer science, is a no-brainer.
Personally, I'm a programmer and have absolutely no desire to be a Systems Administrator myself. From my own perspective, I learned a lot about life and a career from college then just how to program. The environment gets you ready to communicate on a level far different then what most experience up through High School. You are also given the chance to make contacts in your field that you wouldn't have just out of High School. You have references that you can add to your resume which really stick out, as professors often have PhDs and expecially in the computer fields, they usually have a lot of real life experience behind them as well.
To look at it from a System Administrator's perspective, I can look to my company's Sysadmin. His college degree is in Engineering, and only recently went into System/Network Administration. At least once a week I get something from him wishing he had a broader computer knowledge, with some programming and just the ideas that one is enstilled with in a college environment. There is a lot that isn't picked up from certification tests, such as thinking methods, broad problem solving experience, and a general knowledge of the field.
Although I'd say it's possible to get by without a college education as a Sysadmin, I'd say that it would impede your career track more then it would help it to jump straight into the industry. It truly comes down to whether or not you want to add a 4 year degree to your resume, as well as all the extra experience gained from it. Two candidates who are equally impressive in the interview room, if one doesn't have a 4 year degree while the other does, 99% of the time the individual with the degree will be hired over the other. Putting more on your resume in this case is a good thing.
Any educational system is only what you make of it. College can be quite productive for some, and less so for others.
If you have a *real* desire to learn things that may not seem necessary (ask yourself this question: did I find at any point in high school, that I was disinteresed?), then by all means, go to college. It will expand your horizons, in more ways than one.
If, however, you are of budding sexual fantasy, don't even bother--wait till later when you can put your heart and soul into learning.
(pardon anonynimity)
-
I've known (and hired) great programmers without a degree, and known ones with a degree and no job. Most programmers seem to think knowledge, skill, and most of all a job are mre important than a degree. Sure, there are some places that will not hire a programmer without a degree, but these may not the places that you want to work at anyway!
That I have not yet read one single post about how much fun college is. You will finally meet people very much like yourself, you will go out to eat supper at 3am with friends for no reason. You'll live life in a dorm full of very interesting people, develop entirely new social skills and have a great time in the process.
Also, it'll be great for your career, etc, yadda yadda.
I may be responding a little slow on this topic, slashdot time, but as someone who left school and got a job as a sysadmin, I feel my point of view may be relevant.
A lot of people have talked about upstart kids who skip college and get jobs who don't work out because of bad attitudes. I've seen these types myself, who think they are smarter than everyone else (even if they are), and they truly are an annoying breed. However, the college degree (or rather lack thereof) is a symptom of that, not a cause. Kids who think they know everything don't want to go to school and have someone tell them they don't.
When I left college I ended up doing contracting/consulting and the entire time no one cared whether I had a degree. I started working in '97, so the market may have helped this. Now I work at a small private college. But if I had continued on my consultant track I could have continued to make lots of money in a fast pace career.
I've always wondered whether or not my lack of degree will rear it's ugly head and screw me up. However, since I'm not interested in going very far from my sysadmin roots, and would not want a purely management job, it _may_ never be a problem. But I'm also the type of person who has no problem giving up a little bit of money for a good job. If you want to be someone who makes the big bucks, corporate climb, you probably want a college degree with one of those fancy names on it.
So, what I'm saying is I left college and never looked back, and it hasn't caused me any problems yet. I don't feel as though it 'jump started' my career by starting earlier. That wasn't why I left either. As much as you may feel as though the world is rushing by while you are in college, it really isn't.
I advocate going to college. I remember very fondly my college years (well, 1.5), and most of my long term friends I made there. Living with a bunch of people your age day in and day out gives you social outlets you won't have when you are in the work place. College gives you more freedom than you ever had, and gives you more free time than you are likely to ever have again.
In college you will have 90% of all the philosophical discussions that you will have in your life time.
In college you will drink 50% of all the alcohol you will ever drink in your life time.
In college you will do 80% of all the drugs you will ever do in your life time.
In college you will do 70% of all the things you will in the future tell stories about.
In college you will do 60% of all the things you regret in your life time.
In college you will sleep with 70% of all the women and/or men you will in your lifetime.
In college you will do 80% of all the kinky sex acts you will in your lifetime.
So, job or no, go to college, at least for a little while.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
I've been working for 17 years in Information Technology and don't have a degree, and even at this stage of my career it would benefit me to have that piece of paper; however, as AC points out, once you have a family, mortgage, kids in school, etc., it gets really, really hard to go back to school.
Lastly, the SysAdmin thing gets stale very quickly. Keep your options open.
Ok, I would talk about how going to school teaches you to learn, teaches you to live on your own, teaches how to solve problems in general, and teaches how to interact with others (working on problems together), but I'm sure the rest of /. will talk about these.
I was in the same position as you last year, wondering if going to college would actually help me in the long run. Talking to people who work in computers, if you want to get hired get job experience... but a degree helps a lot too. Hmmm...
Simle Solution: go to a school with Co-op.
Co-op is where you find a job through the school, and take 1 or more semesters "off" to go work there. Its not an internship, your actually doing work. (getting paid!) so, you learn how to do stuff in class, then you go and work for a while. When you leave school you have a) a Degree. Score! b) Real Job Experience. With past employers to reference.
This is exactly what I have done. I'm about to end my first year at college, and so far its working out great. I've just had class so far, and I've learned volumes, but I am looking forward to the end of next year when I'll do my first semester of co-op. Thbis really is the best of both worlds.
Look into some schools with co-op.
Go to college. Get some exposure. Get some contacts. Find out how to think first. I am sick of snot nose kids getting into sysadmin because they learn linux or know what the difference b/w a switch and a hub. Not pointed at you per say.
College can be a waste of time or can be a good experience. Depends on how you react to it. I would never trade my college days for working early. I had the best time and made great friends and contacts.
Most people who get into sysadmin hate it after a few years because of the crap you have to put with from the users, the late nights of trying to figure out who crashed the system. And to top it off trying to deal with vendors, budgets, project management, managers, finding resources, etc etc.
Do yourself a favor and go to college and do internships at different companies. Network, UNIX, W2k, databases, etc. The more tools you have the better. You think you know everything at age 18 and you don't. Shoot, I am still learning and I have been at it for 8 years.
Don't think that the world of money is there and certs get you everything. You have to learn about yourself and others if you want to climb the ladder. I do hiring for my company in the IT dept and I can care less if you have certs up the wazoo. If you can't communicate, can't think outside of the mold, I kick the person to the curb. Anyone can memorize /etc/system, /etc/vfstab-fstab, vmstat, iostat, top, metainit, vxmake, extendlv, netstat, blah, blah
Anyway, go to college while you are young and have fun while you are there because jobs will be there in 4-5 years but your youth will be gone.
Good writing is critical. Go to college, and not a technical two-year college, but a traditional four-year university program. Don't be afraid to go to a college that has a "common core" requirement, or something similar. Reading Plato and Weber will not help you be a better systems administrator, but writing about Plato and Weber and having access to a real professor who can actually give you helpful information about how to improve your writing is an invaluable experience.
When employers talk about "interpersonal skills" or a "people person," they mean exactly two things:
If you have a full command of the English language, PHBs eat that up. I've found that there are three things that management can't get enough of:
Point (3) is where the writing comes in. It is absolutely critical, and a simple spellcheck/grammar check/automated thesaurus will not improve your communication.
In addition to communication skills, you'll need the right attitude to be a successful sysadmin. Basically, the way to achieve this attitude is to remember that you're not the reason the company is there: your role is a facilitator. You don't drive the business - you ensure the business runs smoothly. If your boss asks you to do some routine technical support, don't respond that that sort of thing is "below" you. If the CEO's secretary doesn't understand some setting in her email program, explain it to her, briefly and sans holier-than-thou attitude.
However, if you have ideas on how to improve efficiency, share them immediately. In fact, I would recommend that you occasionally visit other parts of your company to see if they need any help. I've noted this strange phenomenon: some departments may not have a real technical person working for them. They'll have the general technical support staff which is limited to ensuring PCs run smoothly. This department will then continue receiving new tasks to do routinely, and, since they don't have a technical person with them, won't figure out that certain jobs can be automated. I'm talking about things like printing out reports from the unix server to type the data into excel; cutting and pasting data from excel into an editor to reformat it for some database app; scanning through hundreds of text documents by eye, in combination with word's search features because they don't know how to use grep from the command line. Every large company has lots of trivial things like this that can be automated, and you should search for them, because non-technical people won't realize these tasks can be automated.
Why? That is like aspiring to be a maintenance man instead of an architect. I became a sys admin through neccesity - if I wanted a stable platform to develop for, I found I needed to administer it myself.
That said, I agree with the previous comments that point out there are a lot more reasons to go to college other than how it will affect your skills at a particular job.
I'm posting this before I've read the already long list of comments, but can we get a "FLAMBAIT TOPIC" warning on the main page?
Me
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You don't need to choose, do both.
Being young, you haven't figured out who you're going to be yet. Trust me on this.
You may not always want to be a Systems Administrator. A college degree will make career changes much easier - and you *will* change careers.
College is more like summer camp for professional life than it is a tech school for geeks. Plus there's the whole social side of college life that you won't want to miss.
I was always told that if you work hard enough it will eventually pay off. Well for you that day has come.
You are one of the hardest working trolls here on Slashdot. Many did not want to give you the respect you deserve since you are relatively new compared to the Grammar Nazi or 56ker established trolls. But you didn't give up.
Instead you dug your heels in. You did your homework. You provide links and quotes to what REAL slashdot users say and believe to bolster your ridiculous and quite insane statements. And that is why today on May 16, 2002 you win Slashdot's first Best Troll Award. Congratulations Hanzo, you deserve it!
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
I think the answer depends on where you want to work. Do you want to work at a fortune 500, or a mom & pop place? I did not go to college (though my AS in applid science is half done) and I work at a very large company. The drawback to not having the degree is that there are sometimes rules in place in the recruitment and promotion process that will actually keep you from getting to the sys admin job - the fact that you have the piece of paper matters almost as much (if not more) than your actual job specific knowledge. On the other hand, Mom and Pop probably only care that you can DO the job, which certifications usually help prove. So if you wanna go get Red Hat certified or some sort of Sun certificate go for that, and it would probably be valuable. And above all - do what you want to do. College is not for everyone, and just because you dont go does not mean you cant do something- though it may take longer (I am on a track to becoming a DBA or SysAdmin here, but its more uphill for me because of the degree issue). And it always helps to know a couple people too!
Good luck!
For God's Sake Go To College!
Some of us are just graduating now! You're young ass better stay out of my job market! You'll hear from me if you take my job! It's mine mine mine!
So close and yet so far from the world's perfect ID number
Too bad the moderators were too obtuse to appreciate it.
"Communism is like having one [local] phone company " - Lenny Bruce
Here are some thoughts:
(1) No, you don't. You don't want to become
a system admin. Trust me. Really.
(2) Even if you did want to be a system admin,
college would help you with that. Believe
it or not, you do learn useful things in
school. They don't just sit you down and
teach you how to program in Java or C++
or something. They teach you about how
computers work and how software works
(at least they do in a CS program).
That helps you be a better system admin.
(3) I know you're tired of school, and you want
it to JUST BE OVER WITH. Well, hell, that's
how I felt. But (a) sometimes you do things
you don't like in order to gain the chance
to do things you do like, and (b) actually
college is a LOT of fun if you do it right.
Enjoy hanging around with the smart kids
in your high school? Well, guess what --
college has a much higher proportion of
smart kids, and they're from all over the
planet and have a whole bunch of different
and creative ideas on things. They can
really be quite fun to hang around with.
(4) College isn't just about getting a career.
In fact, unless it's a professional school
(pharmacy, architecture, etc.) it's not
really about that at all. Most of the
value of college is in other stuff, like
learning how to be organized and how to get
stuff done and proving to yourself that you
can handle the challenge. Sometimes when
I have a project that seems it will never
end, I look back on college and say, "Hey,
I finished _that_, so I _know_ I can make
this happen."
(5) If you really, really don't want to go to
college, then don't go. At least not right
away. If you're doing it out of a sense
of obligation, you'll do nothing but screw
up (as I did -- it was 12 years between
the time I started and the time I finished!).
You need to believe college is a good thing
and that you're a good person who deserves
good things, and therefore, you're going to
go do it because it's something good you
want for yourself. (On the other hand,
don't wait until you have kids and a career
to do it, because you'll regret that.)
(6) Did I mention that college really is
interesting? At least, most of the courses
I took for CS were. They were much more
interesting than I'd expected. And good
classes will teach you how to think in
general, so that you can, in the words of
Yoda, "clear your mind." (Just one guess
on what movie I just saw...)
(7) If you go for CS, once you finish your
core classes, you should be able to choose
to some extent what classes you take
for your last couple of years. At least
at a good school, you should be able to
choose classes related to system admin.
You can choose classes on operating systems,
networks, databases, etc. They won't give
you the specific skills you'll need, but
they will open your eyes in lots of areas
in general.
Plastics.
Going to college and working in the industry are not mutually exclusive. That is exactly what I did. Started straigt out of HS at a 4-year university in their CIS program and got an entry level tech job at a local ISP. I eventually worked my way up in the ISP to become an assistant sys admin while being a full time student at the same time. I'm not going to lie and say that I had lots of free time and a particuarly interesting social life. However the experience was invaluable. College, at least for me, was a tremendous advantage when looking for a job.
The ISP I worked for went under just as I was graduating. Everyone I worked with basically hit the want ads and headhunters at the same time. I ended up bagging a sys admin job (paying substancially more than I was making) right off the bat, whereas my co-workers without degrees are still looking. The job requirements for the position I got required a degree. Of course you never know if that was just to weed out everyone and their fish from applying.
My point is that no matter what you think about college, don't think that you can't work at the same time. I did. College for me gave me many skills usefull in the non-technical aspects of my current job. In case you didn't know there is lot of politics in most large organizations and being a sys admin puts you right in the middle fighting for money and trying to deal with users. Working in the industry gave me a distinct edge over those just out of college without a clue how the "real world" IT based company functions. Just remember that education can be gained from many locations in life and great knowledge can be had if you use all the sources you can find.
and it stinks... Here's the problem with trying to both at once:
If you go to school full time and work full time, you have no time. No time to eat, sleep, or date. (and your grades suffer)
Working part time sucks because you don't get taken seriously at work and you don't get paid enough money.
Going to school part time sucks because you are inelligible for most grants, scholarships, and loans.
For long-term career considerations, you need a degree. If you're going to get a degree, the best time to do it is now, since you'll be the same age as the other students.
My recommendation is to go to school full time, and take out enough in loans (or get enough scholarships) to not have to eat Ramen 3 meals a day. After you get adjusted to college life, maybe get a job in the school computer lab.
If you're nerdy, take note that pre-nursing progams usually require some calculus. Which means there's usually a fair number of women in calculus who would love to have some help with their calculus homework (wink wink). Also, even if your degree doesn't require it, take a dance class at least every other semester (the girl to guy ratio is great - don't worry if you're clumsy, just be able to laugh at yourself and you'll just seem cute).
Psychology classes usually have a pretty good girl to guy ratio, but don't take those classes because most girls are in there because they have serious emotional problems and they think they can get over them by "helping others".
Good luck.
The only exception is if you already have a career mapped out for yourself as an engineer of some kind. That's a very demanding discipline, and it genuinely requires the full course of a college education to amass the basic skills you need just to begin work. But if you're going for jobs as a sysadmin -- which is technical, but not really in the same league as engineering -- you should make every effort to see yourself educated.
An education is primarily about YOU, and your growth and development. It's about broadening yourself, exposing yourself to thoughts and perspectives you've never encountered before. It's about deciding what's important in your life, about learning how to learn, about building character, about fulfilling your potential as a human being in the culture in which you live. Secondarily you might find out a few things that will be useful in your future employment. But you'll find opportunities with a college degree regardless of what you major in or what you learn. And who knows what effect all this will have on what you think you want to do with your life. Don't skip it!
If someone had told me this when I was your age, I'd be a lot happier today.
And the brethren went away edified.
When I went to college, I wanted to get a CS Degree and program happily for the rest of my life. After two days of class, I was done with that idea.
Now I'm an Advertising Major with a minor in Illustration, and let me tell you, I am about 1.000.000 times happier.
My last position was a systems administrator.
For sys admin work, a certification is a much better value than college.
BUT: I have seen this more times than I can remember: at your age, you probably don't really know what you want. You may think you do, but you probably don't. Now is the best time to get your college out of the way.
Maybe you should get a cert, go to college while you work in sys admin. Then you safe no matter what.
I went to college. I didn't do it for the academics, I did it for the vast array of job experience I could gain while bettering myself. Since I've been at college, I've gained years of on the job training, references, and I've had a lot of good times and made a lot of good friends.
I'm 24, and have been a sysadmin since I was 16. I'm approaching a point in my career now where I'm starting to see the advantage of having a college degree. I know I can do it now, but since I have a full time job, it makes the prospect of going to college a very lengthy one. I'm still going to do it, but part of me wishes I would've started sooner.
Granted, I wouldn't be where I am now, and have the skills that I do if I had gone to college, but I'd be much more prepared for today.
Maybe if you do what you'd mentioned and take courses here and there on the side, by the time you're in my situation(And it happens to alot of sysadmins), you'll have the credits for a degree that can help you get to the next level.
Since you are interested in System Administration you probably spend lots of time with a computer. A quick guess is you do not know many girls. For you college is your best choice. At the very least you may meet some girl that doesn't care that you spend all day look at a CRT. I'm serious about this. There are other things to gain from college other than a degree!
Look at your options long-term. You might find that you find a job easily and that you love being a sysadmin for the next 50 years, and if you think that's likely, then you probably should skip college altogether.
On the other hand, what if you don't find a job easily? What if the employer has his choice of a number of candidates, all of whom appear equally skilled, but only some of whom have college degrees? Then the college degree will be an advantage.
What if you find that after you've been at the job 10 years that you're sick of it (especially since you're working for a kid who knows less than you but who has a college degree)? Do you think it will be easier to find the time and the money to go to college then? Do you think you'll have an easy time making a career change without a degree? Then the college degree will be an advantage.
What if you take a course in college, perhaps in art history, perhaps in economics, and you realize that there are whole other worlds out there that you like MORE than being a sysadmin? (I know someone who went to school intending to major in computer science but who wound up majoring in history instead. She's now working on her PhD in history.)
Don't limit your options unnecessarily. Going right on into a career is probably the best choice if you're just looking at the next four years -- after all, after four years you'll have a nice chunk of change in a 401(k), you might have a new car or a house, and you'll be styling. Much better than having a lot of loans and debt. But look at 15, 20, 25 years down the line. Which choice makes more sense then? Which choice leaves more of your options open?
I was faced with the same question as you. Only a few years earlier. I opted out of half my high school career in favor of college, so at the age of 16, I was in college. I, like you, wanted to be a Systems Administrator, and found that they don't really prepare you much for it in the computer science program(at least not my school), so I just started working as a Lab Assistant and made a hostal takeover of the linux servers from my former boss ;-). Best move I ever made. This expirience got me the job I have now. I am a UNIX Systems Administrator, no schooling, a high school dropout with no certs. It can be done, if you know your shit. I still take 2 night classes every year because I enjoy them, but I'm making plenty of money, and am not worrying about my future at this itme. It worked for me, you're story may be different, bottom line, do what you wanna do, not what other poeple tell you to do.
-- p06 "On religious wars: They're essentially wars over whoo's imaginary friend is better"
I've dropped out of college to jump into the emerging PC networking industry in the mid/late 80's. I'm now in my mid-30's and without a degree or extensive experience managing people, I'm in a precarious position. I can't get into the management side of things without the degree, and tend to be undercut by young one's like yourself. Why pay me $60-80K when you'll work for $30-40K - and be more willing to work extensive overtime (without pay!) since you don't have a family yet.
Sure, you can take the short cut now, but significantly stunt your path - or invest the time and effort in a wider career potential now while you're better able to put in the time needed.
Some will say my advice is nonsense, that you can either work your way into management - or that management sucks and if you don't have interest in it then don't bother. I'd still say that you'd be limiting your options - whether you want to work your way up that far right now isn't important. When you get 15 years into your career and begin tiring of (1) the pager going off all hours of the day, (2) taking orders from ignorant managers that don't understand the tech as well as you, and/or (3) just want a change, that's when that decision matters.
Up until a few years ago, I was quite please and proud of my accomplishments career-wise. Now, I'm beginning to regret only having an AS and no long term management opportunities. I've reached a level where my salary requirements and age are significant factors alongside the experience on my resume. I can only assume this will continue as I head into my 40's. I'm now struggling with how to finish up that degree I abandoned so long ago.
Once more, sometimes shortcuts are only benificial for the short-term. It's the long-term planning that's most important - unless you like slaving away chained to a pager/laptop while your friends are dating, marrying, parenting, etc.
I AM, therefore I THINK!
But lack of a degree will most unfortunately remove you from consideration for many opportunities. Even being able to say, "I'm through with all this, I'm going off to teach computers to elementary schoolkids!"
In essence, college gives you perks and accelerates your career. But don't forget it subtracts 4 years from the start. If you don't have the financial means to easily go to college, it's probably not worth it. Well, there are the females, too. Can't forget about the co-eds.
IWARS.
People, in general, disappoint me. Politicians even more so.
You have several upmodded posts on this topic where you droll on about the beauty of mediocrity, the primacy of social climbing over getting work done, the subjugation of individual worth, and the value of college education as if you were some kind of born again commie.
Perhaps you work for some government contractor where mediocrity is mandatory, but in the real world talent is as talent does. I interview for coders at a surviving startup, and I certainly dont favor the degree-laden. In fact, based strictly upon personal experience, Ill hold it against you until you prove that college hasnt made you into an idiot. (generally its to late if youre a phd)
People who really like and want to code, from those i know, find the free-ride, insight bereft, 4 year beer-binging, elementary level "educations" coming out of for-profit ivy league degree mills to be repulsive. Those who wish to learn will do so, going to an institution of formal learning being as harmful as it is helpful.
An there is no coding nirvana where all programmers are interchangeable. And if you cannot understand someone's code, that doesnt automatically mean its incorrect. (it may mean you are an idiot, keep an open mind and youll be less of one)
The best code is created fastest when you give your programmers some leeway to craft their own vision, and provide them with analysis/critiques.
Your duff beer name invokes an image of homer at work pushing the button as your ideal programming workplace: one where the programmer is completely interchangeable if not irrelevant.
Late nights at work, weekends, etc. No your not f-ing your secretary, your working your arse off. Your wife is at home, making dinner for your kids eating without you falling asleep alone and you're still at the fucking office.
You got a good job, but no leverage. Get your degree so that you can tell your boss to stick it up his arse some day when your a sucker like I am, with a good job and no degree.
My wife is a business analyst in the IT department of a major technology company. In order to get in the door to get a job as a temp worker admin at her company, you have to have a college degree. Her college degree? Flute performance.
Thus the actual degree doesn't matter. The fact that you have a degree is what matters. It means that you can, while as an adult, juggle work and your life. Sure if you explain your situation in depth you may be able to do this anyway, but why read a two-page resume explaining all this when a manager could just look for a single line with your college degree?
And, in my wife's opinion, having a degree proves to others you can wade through a certain amount of red tape and take a certain level of bullshit without exploding. Other posts here call this "social skills", but it's really just building up your BS tolerance.
It doesn't hurt to be nice.
College is (or has been for me) an important time where I learn how to live on my own (easy in principle, different in practice). You also are surrounded by an incredibly diverse and fascinating bunch of people, rife with dating, mating, or even business opportunities. No matter how much technical knowledge you have, I guarantee you that sysadmin job won't seem as glamorous as it does now when you look back and realize you've missed out on what really are the best years of your life (pardon the expression). If all you want to do is become a sysadmin, college won't help or hurt your dream. Know that if you don't have a degree, there will be nothing separating you from the rest of the self-taught or "certified" (whatever that means) "professionals".
You'll have all your life to work. Go to college, meet some people, (try some drugs?), take some courses that are interesting not just "useful". You'll be happy you did, and there will be plenty of systems for you to administer afterwards. Heck, you may have a better chance of getting a sysadmin job at your college while you go there, and continuing on after you graduate!
From a system administrator without a degree (me):
Reasons you should go to college:
1) Getting good at programming will make you a better administrator.
2) The job market isn't great now. You're better off spending your time expanding your skills.
3) Right now, your dream is to be a system administrator. Once you have been a system administrator for a few years, you may find that some other career area looks more interesting. If all you have is your experience, you're stuck. If you have a degree, you can switch around much more easily.
4) Even strictly within the administration field, lots of places require a BS degree just for system administration. Even if you have all the experience, wouldn't it suck to have your resume trashed by some ignorant HR flunky because your resume didn't match everything on their checklist?
5) In hard economic times, if you find yourself looking for a job, people with a degree will be chosen over people without a degree if both are experienced and otherwise qualified.
6) College is fun! Night school is fun, too but not nearly as much fun as it would be if I didn't have to hold down a full-time job at the same time. Whoops, we were talking about you. Oh well, take it from a guy who is five years down the "road less travelled". At this particular fork, you want to take the road more travelled.
include $sig;
1;
I admit I haven't read all 7 pages, but from what I did see is nobody mentioned the alternative here. I'm in the military (USAF), and have been in for just over 5 years. Not only have I got some great experience and training, but I'm only 4 clases away from my degree.
"On a scale from 1 to 10, people are stupid"
10: You want to owe the government lots of money.
:-)
09: Everyone is doing it.
08: Your roomate will scar you for life.
07: The chicks down the hall really dig guys that have a GeForce7 video card.
06: Frat parties beat going to happy hours.
05: College is the only where you will find geeky chicks.
04: Homework is so much cooler than complicated deadlines and moving targets set by demanding managers and supervisors.
03: You don't want to deal with end-users.
02: The food on campus rocks!
01: In case you change your mind about being a systems administrator, a piece of paper saying that you put up 4 years of hell is a great way to get into another job where you might not have any experience at all like being a paper boy.
Bottom line: College is alright. Take some classes at a community college and then transfer to a decent school and work while you're going to school where you can learn the in's and outs of a system administrator. At least you'll have a degree and that's something to fall back on even if you want a total career change.
In some companies, system administrators are also called bitches and they make you call them daddy.
Having been an administrator and a programmer for 6 years, i can say that you don't need college to get "in the door". (or didn't in 1996)
though, a degree can't really hurt, especially -after- you have experience. no one cares what school you went to or what your grades werre if you have 2+ years of experience. as for pay, your first few jobs may not pay well, but you are not obligated to tell future employers or headhunters how much you make ("not enough" has worked for me several times).
I went to school while i aquired my job experience, it took me almost 7 years to finish my undergrad. i got a psychology degree. i learned alot, i "broadened" myself, and i can spot a manipulating sonovagun a mile away.
oh, and interacting with the gender of your choice is always a plus. college is more of a melting pot than almost any other environment, why pass up the chance to be exposed to so many ideas and be able to discuss them in person?
semantics are everything!
college provides some people benifits and others none. If you are the homegrown geek that remembers programming in basic in your trs-80 when you were like 8-10 years old. college may not been for you.. you will hone your craft far better in the real world. and best not to find a job that is stuffy... I have managed to become the sr sysadmin for a university with ZERO college degree... why .... because people like us exert pure computer vibe... that is easily detected by people. even non techies can tell the difference if they are being talked to by a real sysamin type or the type that HAS A CS degree from Univ of whatever state because the money is good.
bottom line is college in NOT necesary at all and dont let any of these folks tell ya other wise i am proof of it..
and also because sysadmin is a thankless job. Not to offend anyone, but people never know you exist. And the only time they find out you do exist is when something breaks. And the only reason they find that out is so that can blame you for it, regerdless whether it is your fault or not. And then they forget you exist again. and it goes in an infinite loop
g ineer); //or whatever else
quit_time = false;
sysadmin_tolerance_counter = 0;
while(!quit_time){
if (everything is OK) continue;
else{
find sysadmin
blame sysadmin
threaten to fire sysadmin
if(sysadmin_tolerance_counter++ > MAX_HUMAN_TOLERANCE){
quit_time = true;
}else{
sysadmin fixes the problem
forget about sysadmin
}
}
}
sysadmin.GoToCollege();
sysadmin.become(En
----
kinda crude, but the picture is right
Jobs? Which jobs?
Hi,
In short: get a degree.
Longer story: I've been a sysadmin for over 4 years now, after bailing out of college. Right now, I'm restarting college (after working hours) to get a degree. Why? Simply because I found out CCNA and a truckload of handson experience is not enough. As I write this, I am facing a short course of math (doing what others have 6 years for , in three monts time) and then I will start a four year course to get a decent degree. I wish I listened to my father.
Sabri.
Go to college. If you dont' go to college you're never going to learn some of the most essential lessons of your life:
1) How to work harder than you ever thought possible.
2) How to party like you never thought possible.
3) How to make friends from all walks of life and all races, orientations, religions, and languages (key in any job).
4) How to expand your mind beyond the scope of a vocational school-- learn your liberal arts cause it's the best thing you can do!
5) Create connections and friendships that will not only expand you personal life, but help you in your business life. You'd be surprised how many jobs and connections you'll make in college.
I know I sound like I'm preaching, but going directly to work or to a vocational school would have been a terrible idea for me. I needed the time to mature and to see the rest of the world, having grown up in a small town. That may not be your scenario but consider this: without the ability to problem solve you'll neveer be more than a worker bee. If you can't critically think you'll never move past middle management or be able to start your own business. We all think we know everything in High School but the reality of it is that you're barely a quarter of the way there. My freshmen year of college must have accounted for then the next 25%. I learned so much about myself, my life, and what I wanted to do.
In summary: go to college. Your life is more than just a job. I swear that, if you take the time to go to the right place and try the right stuff the end result will be success. Even if you go and hate it-- at least you know you tried it!
Oh, and when you're done, do some travelling. I didn't get to, so I'm 25 and still never been to Europe.
"Politicians find new names for institutions which under old names have become odious to the people."
Wow! 7 long pages of comments on this already. I read the first two pages, and the last, so hopefully I'm not repeating another post:
GO TO COLLEGE - IT'S THE MOST FUN YOU'LL EVER HAVE IN YOUR LIFE
Even if you go and major in Underwater Basket Weaving and still become a sys admin, college is the most fun you'll ever have (have I already said that?)
You'll find in a real college that there are none the petty high school rivalries, jealousies, bullies, etc. You'll meet thousands of new people who are really interested in studying something besides who's dating whom. (Certain) chicks WILL dig you, and if that's not what you're into, certain guys will dig you too.
You'll meet lots of smart folks who are into the exact same thing you're into (games, programming, surfing, etc.) There's no better place.
My only other suggestion would be to go to a college where not many people from your high school are going. Start a whole new life!
Give serendipity a chance.
I am an IT Manager at an international company, and I have seen techs come in and hit glass ceilings because of the lack of a degree. Basically, if all you aspire to be is a tech, maintaining the day-to-day, then go right into the job market if you can, but be warned, chances are you will get bored or dissatisfied with the daily grind. A degree in, in say business, can open your possibilities into many more opportunities to use technology to benefit the 'business' (after all, this tech stuff is here to make our lives easier/faster/more convienient, right?) which will get you the higher positions where you get to be the leader, not the slave who onlt does what he/she is told....
If it doesn't kill me, I'll try harder until it does....
the one and probably the only time I will ever post a reply to a slashdot forum.
:)), and just do new things. College also presented many opportunities that I never would have gotten into unless I had gone.
Okay when I was in High School, I was in a sort of similiar situation. I was 18 years old, I had a job as head sys admin for a medium sized ISP (~2500 dialup customers, hosting accounts, e-commerce/design clients all that crap).
Anyways the end of high school came and I had to decide wether or not to go away to college. The company I was working for made me a really lucrative offer to stay and I had an offer at MCI.
I didn't do so well in high school and never had much respect for the educational system so that was a count against my deciding to go away.
However when I was in high school granted I was a good admin and a good code hacker but I wasn't making much money. Plus with the trouble finding good qualified help I was always overloaded. I couldn't get a week off to save my life plus being on call 24x7 yada yada yada. Suck.
For some reason I kind of ignored the money and took a gamble on getting a Computer Science degree. Well here I am 3 years later, I have another year left before I am a umm computer scientist(?).
College presented me with a few years to grow up and be normal and do normal things. My working experience burnt me out to nothing. College gave me the chance to go away from home, meet new people (some much smarter than me, college can be very humbling
My life right now sits like this, I'm a year away from a commission as a 2Lt in the US Air Force, a year away from a CS degree were I got to learn lots of cool stuff, I'm spending the summer (and possibly the Fall) doing an internship were I'll be making almost as much money as one of those great job offers (but its only temporary.. I get to try it at least eh?).
I picked up alot of hobbies (and some women to) during my time in school.
On the flip side of all that. I did get burnt out being the jack of all trades doing technical work.
I factored into my decision the fact that I didn't want to do that stuff for the rest of my life and what better place to start working on what would be the rest of my life than school.
If your not the type who gets burnt out on that stuff and tuning routers, keeping servers running, and writing perl scripts is enough to keep you engaged forever well then I can tell the other side of the story.
Their was a guy who replaced me. A year older, same types of interests, etc. A cool guy.
I left my job to go away to school (500 miles north whee), he left the same school to go take over my job. We kind of did a switcheroo.
He was making good money, enjoying what he was doing. Got to buy some of the material things (new jimmy, a used corvette). Met himself a nice woman got married. So that can work out to.
I really think that college has given me more growth opportunities though and more of a chance to find myself (still looking) while working more or less gives you stuff.
Hope the helps, good luck with your decision. I have never regretted mine.
It doesn't even have to be a great school. I get the feeling however, that if you are asking now, a few weeks before graduation, that you haven't really considered college. I started out in a similar situation...a couple years at a 4-year college, then into the military where I picked up UNIX sysadmin. I now am beginning to see a ceiling on my career. Even with excellent experience and a great track record I'm rebuffed by the corporations that I really want to work for. Lack of a degree is a big part of that. Even if I had a BA in something I enjoy as a hobby, like history or biology, I would be fine. Don't believe anyone that tells you a CS or EE degree is mandatory! If you are talented any degree will suffice. Long term it's better that you got it out of the way now. Be happy that you have some skills that will help you pay for college and help set you up for a great job when you finish. And besides, why on Earth would you want to miss Spring Break? Here's a clue: you wont get to have that sort of irresponsibility in the Real World. ;-)
Even if you don't learn a damn thing, the paper is necessary if you want to be taken seriously. Without it, your advice will carry less weight than a wet-behind-the-ears MCSE (Must Consult Someone Else) even if you've designed and built petabyte data storage centers or 20,000 node networks from the ground up. It'll just be assumed that you were the project go-fer and that all the work must have been done by the guys with papers. (Nevermind the glazed over look in their eyes or the drool running off their chins.) BTW, tweedle-dumb and tweedle-dee will also get more money.
You'll also network in college. Schmooze with the professors and they'll recommend you to friends who need cheap but skilled people. You spend a few years working for shit wages and "learning" useless stuff to get that piece of paper. If you work it right, you'll move directly into $150-250/hour consulting using the connections you established through your professors and just skip the 9am-9pm crap altogether.
I went to college for Electronic Engineering, not
System Administration.
You can never automate a good System Administrator.
I do however write my own code to do trends analysis, system monitoring. I also double a a Oracle backend / DBA person. I'm technically a
Systems Engineer, not just a System Admin. I design
solutions on HPUX, AIX, Solaris, and Unix.
If you think all this can be replaces by a direct sales rep... think again. And I've got three boys, a house, a Silverado Extended cab Truck, a wife..
A degree doen't count for everything either. People need talent, people skills, team player, etc.
But don't limit yourself to internship. Learn on your own (you can get a beater PC for $100 -- speed doesn't matter; buy three or four and network them (you only need one monitor); load them with Linux and OpenBSD and any other free OS you care to try, and learn them all. After a few weeks of playing (adding and deleting users, backing up directories, re-loading software, patching software, etc.) you will know enough to volunteer to run the network at the local YMCA/Red Cross/Library/whatever. Even if you don't get paid for it, you'll gain valuable experience with real-world problems (and volunteer work looks great on that resume!). Pretty soon (sophmore year or so) you'll be good enough to get paid for it -- run the network at some local law office, or a doc-in-the-box medical clinic, or your Uncle's insurance company, or whatever. Face it, you'll want if not need a job in collage, so you might as well get some useful work experience out of it.
Bottom line: DO BOTH. Get the degree and the work experience. The other comments about the social benefits of collage are spot on -- you won't regret it. Good luck, and have fun!
If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
advice from a recovering sysadmin who has gone back to school in pure math: :-P
:-)
:-)
Sysadmining is a profession that is still best taught in an apprentiship model. The best way to learn to be a really good admin is to have a guru take your under his/her wing and show you how things work. Jump at the chance to work with someone who is experienced and willing to help you learn, even if it pays little money. If you can, once you've learned a little, try to work at a few different places, so you learn a range of approaches to adminning. Universities often hire students to help out part-time in computer labs, or as junior admins, so you could still get practical experience even if you go to school. As well, as a student, you can get student stipends to go to professional conferences like Usenix' LISA (Large Installation System Administration).
OTOH, sysadmining is the computer-related job for which a traditional university CS degree will prepare you the least. With the exception of my OS internals class (which was basically a Unix internals class), very little of the CS classes I took in uni helped me be a better admin. OTOH, do you really know that you want to admin for the rest of your life? You might want that degree later.
I can't really speak about certifications, since I and everyone I know got around fine without them, but the market _has_ changed. Being a good sysadmin is a lot more than knowing Unix, or Windoze or whatever. You need to know how to:
-write well. you'll need to write all sorts of random stuff as an admin: email to explain to the CEO why the mail server is _still_ down, security advisories, bug reports, user documentation.
-talk to different kinds of people -- you have to be able to talk to your boss, the CEO of the company, random end users. You have to be able to
deal with people who are pissed off, unreasonable, stressed out and/or stupid. The nices ones are easy to deal with.
-analyze complex situations and make technical recommendations based on cost/development time/
what's already installed/training time/etc, and be able to justify and argue for your recommendations.
-a bunch of other stuff which is described best by SAGE at http://www.usenix.org/sage/
Best of luck to you.
-Julie
Even though it may seem reasonable that you shouldn't have to go to college in order to be a SysAdmin, it is the most plausible way to do such things. Even if your degree isn't in Computer Science/Engineering, you look much more attractive to Human Resource Automatons with a degree in something. Someone once said:
"College is a just a way to prove to an employer that you can do something you hate for 4-5 years."
--Danny Quist
Tough it out. You may not like it all the time, but your future will be much more flexible and have many more options...
These days nearly everyone has a college degree. If you don't--everyone else has a leg up. Believe it or not, a degree is important. You may know just as much without college... but a degree is a form of insurance for the employer. We don't even interview applicants without a degree of some sort.
I was going though college and applied for a Sys Admin position with UEN which runs the network for most the state of Utah. I got hired with about 2+ years college experince and was planning on finishing out my BA.
Talking to my different suppervisors asking them about raises, the didn't care weather I had a degree, got a degree, certifications of whatever. All they cared about was if I could do the job. This was very common with all the people I worked with. "Can he do the job" is all the cared about. This comming from a place that runs a network most of the colleges, and schools in the state.
This has been the case for every sys admin job I've had.
My suggestion would be to get things you can put under your belt. Like working on a Opensource project, or creating your own that you can show interviewers. Find the best way you can show what you can do.
Good Luck...
I've been trying to get my foot in the sysadmin door since 95. 20 years of computer maintenance experience in the Air Force didn't mean squat, my BS in MIS didn't mean jack, and my MCSE and A+ certs weren't worth anything to companies. Why did my employer hire me, someone with no unix experience,to administer their Unix servers? Because I had the degree and my record showed persistence. I think the biggest reason was I had a track record of getting results where my predecessor failed. Get that degree, get experience while going to school, and be sure to document your successes WITH statics in your resume. Don't overlook volunteering your time with network shops. Yes, work for no wage at all. Money isn't everything, but experience is when it comes to getting hired.
I agree with all of the posts that have essentially said that there really isn't anything new out there - not really.
A programmer who has a good, solid understanding of OOP can pick up just about any OOP language pretty quickly. The differences between C++ and Java will become irrelevant with enough practice in either language.
For sysadmins, the most important thing you can do is learn Unix or Linux. Don't worry so much about learning the specifics of the latest version of Apache - just concentrate on the fundamentals. Once you have gained a good knowledge base of Network Operating Systems, you can move on to pick up another NOS. There are SO many times that I've learned something by simply telling myself, "Oh, it's just like Unix user permissions, only more convoluted." If you understand the concepts behind the technology, the technology itself will become as interchangable as legos.
As far as whether or not to attend college, my advice would be to go to school and try to get a campus gig running a web server or something.
Good Luck!
I am a network specialist for www.aecom.com and I have never been to college. I am very good at my job and never really even got into computer till after high school when that was a boom for web programmers. I have been in the industry ever since. Currently, I am surrounded by people with degrees in various areas and almost none of them have any college education in the computer field. From what I gather from friends who go to college, the purpose of the experience is to mature the individual by exposure and to inspire confidence with a "safe" enviornment. The only thing I see a lot of college kids come away with is debt and the ability to research and cram in a short period. Personally, my experiences in the industry have made me valuable. That and the ability to learn at a fast pace and not limit my thinking to what I have been taught. Now, you have to realize the industry has changed. There are more people in it, and along with that there are more people who are hobbiest and not computer engineers. So certificates can help. Depending on your drive and location it can be a very tough market to get into as there as not as many startup out there starving for anyone with the absolute minimum of talent. The college route is a good bet for the market now. I was lucky to be sucked up into it when the industry would have taked child labor as long as the kid had talent. I think right now with the computer industry being consolated you will see move tech industry out sourcing their development needs to other countries and more people in this market changing occupations. In closing I woudl say this. Not going to college makes it tough, it's not for everyone. But being in America, anything is possible as long as you work hard and don't screw up. Either way, just be sure to do what makes you happy and you wont get bored with it and feel lost. One other thing. The only problem I seem to have is my spelling and grammer, I mean after all, I am a product of the 90's CA public skool system. We can't be perfect!
ZeulaTek
zeulatek@hotmail.com
Can we please not repost this same feckin question again and again. This exact same ? comes up at least 2-3 times a year. Please, please, please don't post it again. Reject this ? when it comes up. I beg of you.
.coms exploding have gotten rid of a bunch of the "i'm only 17 and I make $150k a year, and that proves college is useless, i'm the new economy"...
At least the
Join Toastmasters.
Any Job that can be done remotely over the internet competes with the whole world. Including the 3rd world with low typical wages. Many of these people are as intelligent and skilled as Americans. (Imagine that.) Written English is quickly becoming a world requirement.
All jobs that can be done remotely will quickly become loosers for Americans. The American cost of living will not diminish very quickly.
The one thing that low wage people not in U.S. can not do is speak in the U.S. Go to Toastmasters and polish your personal communication skills.
That got your attention, didn't it? But it's true... Everyone else is making the very true and valid points about broadening your academic horizons, and the value of a good undergraduate degree. And they're right. But you will never, NEVER have the kind of relaxed, freewheeling, fun life you will have as a college undergrad. The parties. The life in student housing. The drugs, the sex, the rock and roll...to quote South Park, "there's a time and a place for everything, and it's called college." I'm not saying it's a license to be stupid, and you should learn something along the way. But it is also a time to avail yourself of some new opportunities and push your boundaries so you can find out who you really are. An experience not to be missed - you might even enjoy it as much as I did, and do grad school as well. The sex thing is pretty cool, too. :)
I'll tell you what the 'effect' is! It's pissing me off!
I'd have to say, there is quite a diversity of comments on this subject, all by people who seem to feel very strongly about their particular view. Selecting what to do with your life has more to it than the question of "School or profession?". For myself, I was "forced" into the decision by my parents who kicked me out after I graduated.
:)
For myself, I entered one year a Rochester Institute of Technology and got caught up in a very helpful group, CSH (www.csh.rit.edu). For me, this turned out to be the best. I left school after 1 year with no useful information gained from classes, but still glad I made a cameo at a University.
For others, school often gives them what they needed, either in terms of stability or in terms of knowledge. Either way, it can be a very useful thing. There are still some theory-related topics which make me wish I'd gone to school (still can't write a B-tree w/o hitting a manual first).
The bottom line really, is Y-O-U. I have had no trouble getting jobs, and typically make more than those around me (and I'm younger, didn't have a 4 year investment); however, that is not as shiny as it appears. I have often faced people who won't give me a chance, since I'm young, or since I didn't have "Experience". Basically, if you're going to work hard, going to school, or which school, or which profession is not such an issue. If you're a hard worker, you'll more than likely do just fine wherever you head.
geis
BTW - Now that I have some experience under my belt, I don't run into those issues much anymore.
I am a System Administrator, and that means that I am BOTH an programmer and and engineer when the systems require it. Please, go to school and learn more about your chosen career.
I just graduated from college two weeks ago with a degree in computer science. I have worked as a lab proctor, a help desk technician, and an assistant system administrator and it was still almost impossible to find a job (Out of ten graduates from the department, I am one of three that got a job). I was hired as a system administrator at a place that does not accept anyone without a degree. You can, of course, get a job as a sys admin without a degree but I think that the lessons you learn in college are very valuable. Most of what I do as a sys admin I learned from just tinkering with machines so it all comes from hands-on experience but my classes taught me lots of theory that I would have missed out on, otherwise. I would recommend a degree in computer science to anyone that was just starting out, in the field. As far as certs go, I would recommend them, as well. I looked for jobs from October until 3 weeks ago, when I was finally hired for one and almost every job wanted a degree AND certs. I would definitely recommend Cisco certification for a sys admin because everyone seems to want it. Also, Sun, Java, and *yuck* Microsoft certification seem to be in high demand. Many people have told me that no one wants an MCSE anymore but I see it in job descriptions all the time so I can only assume they are wrong. I really wish I had my CCNA cert right now because it would have made me much more marketable. Hope this info was useful to you and good luck with whatever you choose.
After my second year I got a great job working at a large dotcom out in the Bay Area - less than a year later I was back at school (my own choice) because COLLEGE IS THE BEST TIME OF YOUR LIFE.
Here is a short list of the things I missed:
DO NOT MISS OUT ON THE OPPORTUNITY TO GO TO COLLEGE!!!
Don't fool yourself: while a lot of people are down on getting a college education, in a lot of technical positions, what can make or break you is if you have any sort of college degree.
I have a friend who is a crackerjack programmer, but he had a hard time getting a job because he doesn't have a college degree. This guy could make a terabyte network drive sing. He can do protocol programming. But no college degree. Granted, you arent a programmer, but the reason why he didn't get any offers for a long time applies:
What a lot of hiring agencies and potential employers are doing is -- right or wrong -- putting all applicants into a spreadsheet, with columns for degree, years in college, etc. What they then do is sort for things they want, including college. Those nams that don't have anything in the 'college' filed get immediately dismissed and deleted.
Yes, it sounds like a drag. Yes, it's two, three, or four years of your life still spent in school.
It's worth it, though. You need the time to figure out what you really, honestly want to do with your life; even as it is, asking a kid at the age of 18, what they want to do with the rest of thir life is patently unfair. Use your college years to make yourself as marketable as possible. Broaden your horizons. Meet people, network, make contacts. Have a social life. You might even find something competely different to do before you graduate. Use this time, even if it's to get a degree from a community college. (Some community colleges aren't half bad.) You might not ever use your degree. (I haven't touched it since I graduate, but it helped to get me a commission in the Coast Guard.) But without it, you will have all that much harder a time getting a job.
"I am an Adept of Tantric VAX."
What should a 38 year old, currently unemployed network administrator do? I have lots of experience, a 2-year degree, and some minor certifications. Should I get my BS or get additional certification?
- Eric, InvisibleRobot.com
From my own experiences, I would highly recommend going to college and get your certification as well. As the market becomes more competitive due to the global focus (i.e. H1Bs), that'll be the difference between being able to find a job in a difficult economy or at least getting call backs from your job searches.
I've read so many articles lately (especially here) ranting and raving about H1Bs and mass produced trade school techs driving down the salaries for system administrators. Let's face it, it's just simple economics that people will want to flock to occupations that pays well and
require a short time in training. How many other jobs right now can you expect to get a shot at an above national average salary by going through less than a year of training through trade schools?
On the job training can be hard to obtain in this tight economy, since all the junior position have evaporated. Unless you're willing to work as a non-paying interns, I'd doubt you'll be able to land a position especially in the valley. Depending entirely on on-the-job training also make it so easy to fall into the cookie cutter mode, where all you do is use other people's scripts and recipes. This makes you extremely replaceable as they can simply automate this process and cut you out of the loop. Remember back in '95, HTML "programmers" were commanding $50-$60 an hour. That job role no longer exists. Unfortunately, this is the type of jobs that trade schools are at their best churning out.
The difference between me and many of my coworkers is that my university education provides me with the fundamentals to understand technologies. If you learned the basic program paradigms and understand it well, you can catch up to speed very quickly on any buzzword "new" technology that comes along like Java, C# and other crap. The concept of compiler design hasn't really changed in 20 years and it's not really going to either. For system administration, understanding the parts of an operating system is critical. I've had so many coworkers who has 10+ years working in system admin roles (normally trained in military, trade schools or on-the-job, or state university schooling) that doesn't understand the basic parts of an operating system and how it all works together. It makes them very vulnerable to shifts in deployed technologies (like the short lived windoze server craze or the current linux craze). The way to build operating systems hasn't really changed much in the last 20 years either. Same with networking and the basic tcp/ip protocol design. There's been more features added in the last 20 years but very few true innovations. The current "hot" trends has always seems to pop out of nowhere, but they are very grounded in the idea of the past. For example, system and network security has all of a sudden been discovered in the last few years. The idea of not having a "root" account and session based logins have been solved by IBM mainframes long ago(for all those that suffered under the toil of "awfulvision", CMS, MVS) How often do you hear of mainframes being hacked? It's always the latest and greatest toy boxes that gets reamed in the real world.
anyways, I've been ranting on too long already. Get a university degree for the fundamentals, that'll keep you from being tossed in the cold when "new" technologies shows up. Meanwhile, you'll need certification, on-the-job training, and occasional trade school type classes to get into the field in the first place and to get all the finicky details of the latest buzzword technologies. If what you do can be taught to an intern with a trade school background in a month or two, you have a lot of reason to worry about your future. If you're not ready for a life time of learning, system administration is not for you.
You'll either be tossed in the cold in the next downturn, or be tossed out right before your retirement when you're too set in your ways to learn anything new and too expensive to keep.
-- I have enough stupid gadgets to know that I can do without -- http://www.modestneeds.org
There are a lot of experiences you'll miss if you jump straight into the workforce full-time. College is not wholly (or mainly) about learning a field. College is about learning to think. College is about broadening your horizons. It's about meeting new and interesting people. It's about getting blind stinking drunk and passing out on a sorority's lawn in your underwear.
Employment, on the other hand, is about one thing. Making enough money to keep yourself solvent and in good health for the entirety of your lifespan. And that's a long time. The material possessions part of it is something you get to work on once you've fulfilled the first two requirements.
So go to college. You don't have to go to an expensive four year right off the bat. Go to juco and take a wide range of classes for a couple years. Get a job in sysadminning on the side. Bounce around a little, it won't be held against you. You gotta see systems, and that's the only way to do it. And it might turn out you don't like them as much as you think you do. Or that you have a knack and a desire to program. Or something even weirder. But keep the GPA up and try as best you can to get a cheap ride to a four year. Preferably away from home. Drop yourself into a brand new environment and try to handle it.
Dear Chicks Hate Me,
I teach a LAN Administration class at my high school (Bishop Union High, in Bishop, California), and every year I have the brightest, most motivated, and technically proficient kids in the school in my class.
The question often comes up about whether they should begin working and earning money right away, or whether to go off to college.
My advice? I see it this way. Kids have the entire rest of their lives to work. It would be foolish to jump into the work force without experiencing the joy of higher learning, if you have the opportunity. A college education is MORE than learning a trade. It is exposure to new ideas you may not have been exposed to otherwise. It is mingling with peers in a purely academic setting - an opportunity you will find quite rare as an adult in the workforce. Take the time to get the degree, and you'll find you not only have more foot-in-the-door clout, but you just may actually learn something OTHER than your passion (in this case, technology). Life is so much more than you can realize at 18.
So don't waste the opportunity for a few bucks now. You can *always* earn money - there is always a market for talented, enthusiastic people. It'll be there when you're done with college. Hell, it'll be there long after you're dead and gone.
Carpe diem.
Joe Griego
Dir., I.T.
BUHS
Don't Die Wondering
You're young. You're free. You're careless. WHY DONT YOU GO TO COLLEGE ?
:
... but then, you don't need the certs anymore to get hired !)
A few point for college
- Early 20s is the best time to go to school. When you are nearing 30, got debt to pay, kid to feed and a full time job you must keep, going back to school is a major undertaking requiring serious sacrifice. I am speaking from experience here. Why not play it safe and go to college when it is actually EASY to do it ?
- You will actually learn useful thing in school. Unfortunately it is hard to put that into perspective when you dont have much experience.
- It is a common misbelieve that sysadmin don't need programming skill (or anything else taught in CS). That is false. The best sysadmin are at least passable programmer, if only to write an odd script here and there. Also, a little C will go a long way toward understanding those cryptic error you get when you are compiling a new kernel. Plus getting the big picture is important if you want to be polyvalent.
- The chicks. The partys. The network of friend you are building in college.
- Certs are useless. Period. (Ok, maybe if they are backed by serious experience
There is a lot more to say, but these are the most important one to me. Personnally, I wish I had gone to college/university back a decade ago. My life would certainly not be the same (probably better).
:wq
10 -- It might be the last time you see Unix
9 -- If it's down to you and a college grad for a job the college grad will probably get the job
8 -- 20 something chicks
7 -- Lesbians, lesbians, lesbians
6 -- You need to be well rounded. Learn things that aren't computer related.
5 -- I hear Microsoft has invented this thing called Zero Administration... could be trouble!
4 -- Beer.
3 -- Did I mention the Lesbians?
2 -- Because you'll hate yourself if you don't
1 -- You might find out you _don't_ want to be a Sys Admin
This
If you can afford it, go to college. Listen to everyone else on here that talk about the academic/intellectual benefits.
Another side of it...college will give you a chance to meet some pretty smart people. Networking is important. Additionally, consider the fact that only in college will you be surrounded by thousands of girls. You'll never get this opportunity in any tech job -- TRUST ME.
Right...so go to college, get your learn on, and learn how to talk to girls.
I left school early, and also tried to break into the IT industry without a degree. That was about 15 years ago, when it was (supposedly) easier to get into the industry without a degree. I was always targetting coding as a long term goal, but initially was looking for pretty much any IT role above data entry. I became a middle manager in another unrelated industry without being able to effectively break into the IT industry in any role with scope for growth. Industry certification is now more standardised and can help, but don't rush to suppose that other stories of success will transfer... some people just get lucky.
As for a degree, I went to university and got one a few years ago. The study was interesting, not especially taxing, and gave me time to learn stuff that "wasn't practical", that I haven't learnt in any industry certification programs. The result was that opportunity just opened wide before me. I'm now working as an OO Software Architect and expert programmer, not what you are seeking, but indicative of the doors that a degree can open. So based on my personal experience, I would say that you should be sceptical of people who suggest that alternate training can be just as rewarding and effective, get a degree, and I don't believe you will look back.
Second and for what it's worth, I also find that very technical knowledge is easy to gain, but hard to grasp really deeply and keep. The only way I can manage it effectively is by having a structure of related fundamental knowledge I can place new knowledge in, giving it context and better understanding. It's amazing how useful the kind of info you pick up in a good degree is in this context. I'm constantly amazed at how many professionals lack the basic grounding they need to capture new knowledge both quickly and deeply. Unless you are both tremendously disciplined and have some people to advise you in great depth about useful areas of study, I think that a degree is a great way to pick up this structure of knowledge, if you actually pay attention.
Last, don't rush to assume you will never want to change careers. SysAdmin might appeal now, but I'd hesitate to make choices that might lock you in. Roles in IT change character over time as technology changes, and you may see roles you prefer. In any case, the really good SysAdmin's I've seen know a lot of stuff that goes far beyond what is in their immediate role.
Having a degree is the first thing that most employers look for... no degree, your resume hits the trash barrel... take it from me im on the job market now, and am contemplating just going back to school instead of finding a real job... just get something part time... damn it ... go to school... doesnt matter what you have for a degree... you could get a management degree if you wanted to (business is easy) and that would put you perfectly inline for a sys - admin job... certs are also good... look at bentley... www.bentley.edu , _the_ best school hands down for combining technology and business... if you cant land a job with a bentley degree you must be dead (or a member of Sigma Gamma Delta ;-) )
What I think a lot of people are missing is that college is not for everyone. A sysadmin can be completely competent and well adjusted without spending the time and money for college. Just because some of us may have learned most of our social skills at college doesn't mean everyone does. Some learn them at work. Some even learn them in grade school (though nobody here did).
System administration doesn't require EE classes,
math classes, breadth requirements, etc. Are these classes valuable to some people? Of course they are.
If the person in question would have just as much fun in life without fufilling the requirements of college, why shouldn't they do that?
Most replies have been of the form: "college is
good." It certainly is. There are, however, plenty of good things that some people refrain from and still lead an excellent life.
That said, go to college. System administration isn't as fun at 24 as it was in high school.
sig is
Go to college not to learn to be a sysadmin, but to go from young adult to adult slowly instead of rapidly. The most valuable things you learn in college aren't in any course. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. It doesn't matter what you major in, it doesn't even really matter if you "screw around for four years" - the experiences, and friends you make, are worth it - assuming you make at least some effort to take advantage of the situation. There will be no other time in your life when you get four years to study things that interest you, and have fun. In fact, you'll be lucky to get more than a week at a time to do what you want between graduation and retirement, so take advantage of it.
a) System Administrator is not nearly as glamorous a profession as you think it is and is not written with capital letters.
b) If you are reasonably good, it's not hard to get a job but you will not go very far unless you get a college degree some time.
c) IMHO, your money goes up until you hit Phd. Masters seems to be the optimal money for work.
d) College does rule. Drinking, parties, coeds, dorms, keggers, MY GOD that was fun, I can't believe I'm leaving!
-Jay Thomas
http://www.uiuc.edu/~jthomas2
My goal is to be a master of my craft. To be able to walk down the street and say that out of the 1 million people I will ever come across, I can do things that they cannot. Besides the huge boost to one's ego this brings (which is quite a problem if you don't control it), you just feel damn good knowing you can solve problems with technology.
I am not college educated. In fact, if it weren't for a technicality I'd have failed high school and dropped out. But the moral is that there are multiple paths from point A to point B, both have advantages and disadvantages. Do what you like. If you're not a structured education kind of person (and I guess I'm not), don't force yourself to sit through years of college being miserable.
Don't be afraid to take chances. Sticking to the same beaten path means you're likely to get the same mediocre rewards as everyone else. :)
If you are in a situation where your college degree will be paid for and your living expenses paid for, then go to college and get your degree in Engineering (electrical, computer, whatever) first. Otherwise, definately try the non-college route. No, I did not finish my college degree, because I'm too busy working! You may not have the opportunity to get your degree later (since you will be working so hard at your full-time, on-call, sysadmin position). Yes, the industry changes, but the industry will still be here when you graduate. Also ask yourself what you want to do after being a systems admin. To tell you the truth, being a systems admin is like being a janitor. It is a thankless job. Sooner or later you will want to move "up" into an engineering or software position that pays more (and doesn't keep you on call 24/7). If you want to move up to management (say CTO or Director of IT) you will need a degree (just the paper part, though). If you are someone who likes to be creative, systems admin will bore you. You do the same things day in and day out, and you only get thanked when you fix problems! Not for your creativity or intellect! So don't be in such a hurry to join the work force. In the meantime enjoy college and the hot chicks ;-)
If you can handle an admin job and know the position, then get the job and do the work. Only do that what you can honestly handle. Make sure the company you work for will work with you on a school schedule, and get your education as you work. It might be time consuming, but 5 or 6 years down the line you'll have a degree with experience to match. You'll look great on paper (as sick as that might sound).
It's all about RTFM.
While this hasn't been the best short term strategy in the market for the past few years, it's definitely the smartest thing you can do right now. The job market for SA's is not very good right now. In fact, it's the worst it's been in maybe 20+ years. You are much better off long term by getting the rest of your education and then looking into some junior SA jobs. Good luck!
If you go to college, you'll understand more obscure jokes modded up as funny here on slashdot. Isn't that enough incentive?
No degree is required for a decent living, but to broaden your horizon, provide resiliency to economic downturns and stuff, and finally to ensure a long term path which will get you to a retirement check which you can actually live on.... get a degree.
Hey I don't blame you for blowing off this advice, what high school guy/girl wouldn't... I'm not talking about tomorrow or next week... I personally waited 16 years to get my BS after HS. What I have to show for it is being behind most of my peers who chose the harder path.... even those who are substantially less talented. Sure I left the numb nuts, wasteoids, & 90% jocks and even some teachers behind, but I'm still chasing the otherwise dim wits who graduated from college the same year I should've, and kind of wondering why 4 years was so important.
Go to college, get a job in the computer lab ASAP. Learn all you can from the TA's and graduate students in the lab. Dedicate yourself to learning everything there is to know in your domain. Learn they why's of DNS, WINS, DHCP, FTP, HTTPD, etc. but on several o/s instead of just Microsloth and Solaris or VMS (most colleges). Cut some device driver code, or some system level stuff (a couple semesters worth) so you can really understand how it all fits. Get a degree in basket weaving or whatever but get a BS then go kick some tail.
While I was in grad school, I was able to get a job as a sys admin for a research lab as well as a job doing programming for the lab. I was able to work with really nifty equipment in support of some really interesting work. Was able to hone my skills by really being in control of the systems in the lab which you won't get as a junior admin. As a junior, you won't be doing any planning, policy making, or any other "high-level" admin stuff, so you won't be exposed to a lot of important activities and skill-builders like trying to figure out how to make end-users' ideas work from planning through to deployment.
On top of working as an admin in a relatively low-stress environment (deadlines are nowhere near what they are in commercial enterprises), you also have the opportunuity to work with cutting-edge research and really smart folks in wide variety of disciplines. In commercial enterprise, you're likely to get pigeon-holed _real_ quick and not get exposure to a lot of things that will come in handy later.
Short answer: go to college.
Go to college. Too many people say that High School is the best time of your life. They lied. If you GO AWAY to college (read: out of Mom and Dad's reach), you will be the better person for it.
Earning a BS or BA degree will show a prospective employer that you can set goals for yourself and see something through to the end.
Generally hiring managers are looking for the better employee. I know if I had to chose between a college grad and a HS grad with the same skills, I'd take the college grad in a heartbeat.
College will teach you things you can't learn on the job.
You're 18, you think you know everything, and you want some serious money. I know...I was there.
The truth of the matter is, you don't know shit about shit and you NEED to go to college and finish growing up. The world and your career will thank you for it later in your life.
People who go for the quick gain end up paying in the long run.
Also, think about the quote below. There is much meaning in it.
"...the shortest distance between two points may be straight line, but it is by no means the most interesting."
I am currently an IS Support Analyst for one of the largest publishers in the country. My current role isnt one of choice rather one I aquired becuse of my company being bought out and the center I was Sys admin for being closed. Its been an interesting experience. I have no HS diploma, only an equivelancy. I have no college degree. I have been a MS MVP, and have been working in an IS role for many years now. I was lucky, not everyon can fly into the field and make a go of it. But on the flip side not everyone can go to school and learn a damn thing. I had another sys admin working with me here whose resume looked nice but he couldnt tell the difference between a windows login and a domain login, couldnt move a page file to another drive and god forbid he have to do something at a command line. Yet he was just a few test short of an MCSE. You make the call, if you can get your foot in the door and go to school that probably the best bet.
Sick of stupidity? http://www.patentlystupid.com
Certification goes bad, degree's don't.
Not to pick on you, but any old high school grad
can do sys admin.
If you are good, then you will get bored/sick quickly.
Going to college at least puts some new thought/ideas in your head.
In the same boat. Age 26. No degree. But wishing I had one, and the college.
;-)
;-)
Why? College would have been good for picking up some programming skills, and for also having time to practice them in a non real world situation. I learned perl a few years back since I needed to. No time to dick around with it, I had to figure it out fast and accuratly, or potentially break somethng. No pressure, eh?
But I also miss the social aspects of college. I'd go see my friends at UT on the weekends, party with them, and think "hey this is great" and then realize I had a sendmail server that was paging me for a restart.
So go to college. Rack up some student loans, learn some code, party your ass off, and get a good edumacation.
With the whole recessed tech market, that also makes having a degree more valuable. Althou if you take my Unix admin job away from me, I'll kill ya.
http://thepoliticalgeek.com/blog/ Politics for Geeks.
Since software engineers will not be paid much longer (there are lots of people willing to do it for free), it's no point in getting an education in this field.
And work there for a while. When you're totally fed up with the brain-dead idiots that you support remember this: That group is significantly smarter than any group you'll find out in the real world.
In the real world, you'll be dealing with people who can't put paper in a fax machine. People who can't work the microwave. People who can't transfer a call, let alone check their voicemail. People who put their shoes on the wrong feet and can't figure out why they have blisters.
I'd definately choose the work experience over college. I myself had to go through the military for a few years, but I have little college experience and have a decent paying job at a good company (No IT layoffs at all, ever). My job title is "IT Specialist" (whatever the hell that means -- basically, we'll throw something at you and you better have an answer or be able to learn it quick). In our entire department, only 4 people have college degrees, only 2 of them being is CS. When employers are looking to fill a position, they are looking to hire a person - not a piece of paper. All the degrees, certs, etc in the world don't mean anything if you can't answer the technical questions asked at the interview, or if the interviewer doesn't like something about your attitude (whether it be to lethargic, or even on the other hand to ambitious and know it all). Basically, do whatever it takes to get the skills needed to be able to sell yourself. An interview is basically a sales meeting, and a degree is basically a sales brochure. If you don't have to right pitch to go with your brouchure, you'll never sell yourself.
As a hiring manager in the unix biz, I can tell you up front that in 5 years, you are gonna have a tough time getting a job without a degree. Right now the single biggest reason I turn away candidates is lack of skills at programming (Be it shell, perl, C, anything). Most people don't pick this stuff up on their own, they learn it for one of two reasons:
1) They went to school and got the foundation for programming.
2) Their employer had the overhead to pay them while they learned thier job.
In the current economy, nobody wants to hire someone they have to train at $60K a year. Just not feasible. I have a staff of 10+ admins, and the one's without degrees are older than you and have had the time and taken the effort to learn their jobs coming up through an organization. The one's with degrees are mostly younger (5+ years younger) and make more, and have a better chance of moving up than thier non-degree co-workers.
Go to school, its harmless. Sure, you lose 4 years of earning the bux, but you'll make it back over time and then a lot more.
I take it you were a sysadm that got canned?
Army's not the only force branch looking for recruits and officers. Of course, if you want to be an officer, you ought to get a college degree...
Judging from the comment count,
Sys Admins have a lot of time
to read Slashdot !
If Chaos Theory has taught us anything, it's that we must kill all the butterflies.
Wireless Engineer - +$80,000
Forensic Accountant - $100,000
Data Miner - $60,000 to $70,000, but managers can make $120,000
A.I. Programmer - $50,000 and climb to $70,000 to $80,000 after a few years
Fuel-Cell Engineer - Senior specialists are already demanding $100,000 to $120,000
Intellectual-Property Attorney - $60,000 to $86,000
Check out the details here.
I dont know about the A.F. but in the Navy you can join 3x6. That's 3 years active duty, then 3 years reserve (at least 1 year of which must be active reserves). Most people who sign up for 4 years active duty must then be on inactive reserves for 2 years (4x6?).
Anyway it's enough time to get the traning. You also get certain benefits if you want go to college after you tour of duty. Plus you get a small income while in school for being active reserve.
I've actually found my way trough a lot of the ideas presented here. I went to a vocational technical H.S. (plumbing). Then I joined the Navy. Then I went to college. Then I worked for Bell Labs as Sys. Admin where I learned what I really needed to know to manage UNIX systems.
If you ask me college simply provides you with the credemtials you need to get your foot in the door. A former collegue of mine who had been in the Army never went to college. He managed to become a Sys Admin in the Army. When he got out he started doing entry level contract work. He worked his way up until he landed a direct position as director of IT at a large financial company.
There are many routes you can take. Most likely the one you end up on will not be the one you started upon. Just get yourself going down a path that has potential. Always be on the lookout for new opportunites.
Go to college. Major in Business and take a few computer courses that interest you on the side. Learn some programming and databases. During the summers, or whenever you can squeeze it in, get certified in something the college won't teach (cisco comes to mind). With a business degree, no matter WHAT changes in technology, businesses will ALWAYS be more interested in you. Programming is important as a systems admin, (scripting) and databases are important too. Most business functions for IT involve handling data, and that is done with code and databases (someone else's code). Unless you like the CS program at your local school, you probably won't finish it if you want to be a sysadmin. For me, I quit because I couldn't see the point of learning Calc 3, when I was already running a net/sysadmin and consulting business on the side. I went into contracting, and did OK, but as the market has tightened, it's harder to get a job with no degree. It doesn't matter that I'm smart, or a great sysadmin, the first line in the hiring process is an HR manager, who always wants to see "BS" on your resume. Having a business degree vs. CS allows you to go a lot further and manage a lot more people. I still love sysadmin, and don't want to be a paper pushing manager, but there is plenty of room for highly technical managers who get their hands "dirty" as necessary. Also, the older the person who is interviewing you, the more important BS is on your resume. You can go for an MBA pretty easily from a BS in business management, and then you're GOLDEN as a manager in a tech firm.
this sig has been rated E for Everyone.
...and take something totally non-tech like art or history. You'll have fun and it'll be a nice break from all your programming electives. Also, make sure you get a job in the school IT shop. And don't hurry. I'm 16 years into my BA and let me say that Freshman time was the best 6 years of my life.
I drank what? -- Socrates
Theoritically and for getting hands on experience with networks, gear and all the good stuff.
sometimes even you think you know what you want to do after a few years of doing it, college will open the doors to the possibilities of things that you enjoy even more. You could be like me, and just have good tendencies towards computers because of mathematical skills (i would have never known without taking higher level college math classes that my CS degree required/recommended)
I am about to grad. from a uk college course in Comp. Sci. at one of our nation's top colleges, University College London. To be honest I'd have been better on the dole (benefit) for 4 years. I'd have had the time to do real work, not just ponce about going from one stoopid no-brainer coursework to another. Our college is all about corporate schmaltz and nothing about the real nitty-gritty of getting the job done. That's not to say it was a totally worthless experience. I got the chance to associate with some incredibly clever people (Jon, Denise, Robyn, Chris & Mark - I salute you!) However, most of the lecturers couldn't be bothered and failed to maintain even the standards they expected of us as students. Gah - this is turning into a rant - didn't mean it to be, but the final final is on tuesday (databases.. will walk it) and I guess there's some bile to come up :-)
Personally, I'd go for experience every time.
Ton's of comments already, but I have this to say.
I didn't go to college right after school (well, I signed up but I didn't actually *go*...), and now I'm in my late twenties and working and going to school, blah blah blah. Luckily I'm in a position where this is financially feasible, if difficult.
Get a degree. Take *some* classes, even if it's not a full load, just take at least one every session - minus summers if you'd prefer. Try and get a job, if you do, great - still continue on with the school, though. If you don't find a job you like, then at least you can continue on majoring in CIS, CS, or something else.
School shows two things. (1) The desire to improve one's self. (2) The ability to learn. Soft skills aren't all that important, but in labs you sort of get a small helping of how those work anyway because you have to work with others.
You might even stick patience in there as a third "thing", and note it's not possible to say that this applies to everyone. I'm not saying these are universal truths or anything, but most people I talk to seem to agree.
Nowadays I find it amusing that I hated school when I graduated HS, but now I love it. I've discovered that I'm only really happy when I'm learning new stuff. Sure, some of the classes you have to take are boring/I-know-more-than-the-teacher/why-the-hell-d o-I-have-to-take-this-again kind of classes, but over all it's a welcome break from the rat race.
Hope that helps even though you have about 1000000000 responses to parse before you get to mine...
Other people I talk to say to get Experience. If that mean, doing work for free (like a non-profite origination). That way you can say, I been a admin at companyX for 6 months, I this is what I have done. Right now I have not gotten a job yet. I'm in 11th grade, with A+, and CNA Certs. I taking my Network+ tomorrow, I hope I pass :).
My tip: start small/local, then move to someone bigger.
- cpuJeff
If you aren't patient, you will never make it through college so you might as well shoot for the bigs now, but if you can handle it college is a very reqarding experience. Personally, I am a first year CS major at UCSD. I am not so much learning the ins and outs of computers as the ins and outs of life right now. College is not only about your brainpower, it is about learning to be an intelligent and informed citizen. What good is living if you don't know what life is all about? In college you really discover who you are, who you want to spend your life with, and what you REALLY want to do. Who knows? Perhaps you don't really want to be a sys admin for the next 50 years (remember, you will have the job for the better half of your remaining life... if you are lucky). College gives you a base of knowledge that is applicable beyond computers as well as in them if that is the lifestyle you choose. Knowing about Socrates and World War I not only improves your social skills, but can be applied to your job. Advanced Calculus skills also are nearly essential in the modern world! With this base of information you will be smarter, and your work performance will be affected. College degrees also come in handy if, for some reason, you find youself out of a job in a couple years. The job market may shrink and you would then need every advantage over the next guy you could get. Then again, maybe you will take your chances and succeed. Great opportunities sometimes come at great risks. Personally, I reccomend college, it is fun and you learn more than just academics. Your choice though. Good luck!
Forecast for tomorrow: A few sprinklings of genius with a chance of DOOM!
Considering the number of unemployeed sysadmins out there now with degrees and a lot more experience than you, I wouldn't even consider it. College will be give you 4 years to let the job market come back to life.
I was a "self-taught" programmer and had lots of job opportunities that put me in the low end of the pay scale. I gained valuable, real-world experience in those first jobs. However I grew tired of the low pay and went back to school WHILE I was working. It took a long time to finish, from about age 24 to 29, but it was well worth it. I'm sure it was just coincidence, but in the last 2 years since I finished my degree, my salary has doubled. The key to making it is practical experience coupled with a well-rounded, timeless education. There are lots of degreed IT professionals out of work right now. Do you really think you have better experience than they do? You may be smart(even exceptional!), but there are few people coming right out of school that have an abundance of real world experience comparable to educated adults who have worked in the field for say 2 or more years.
If you want to work for peanuts, then go for it. College is not a waste of time. If nothing else, you might have some fun and meet new people. And as one poster said, meet some women. You won't be meeting many of those at work in the IT field...
I was in the same situation when I graduated high school four years ago but I joined the military. I am a small computer system specialist in the US Marine Corps and it has really helped determine what I want to do in life. The military will give you the chance to design network layouts, administer remote sites in different countries(I am writing this from a camp in Korea). More than anything it has helped me mature and gave me a good sence of what its like to be self dependant. If you want to use all the latest equipment join the Air Force, they take good care of you. If you want to be pushed around and make wire testers out of a flashlight at two am in the Australian forrests join the Marine Corps. Its something to look into, it changed me forever.
What Bullshit! You turn down people because of a piece of paper from bozo simpson college well you can wipe your ass with it because thats what is worth. I much rather have a uber hacker then some snot nose kid out of bullsit college still trying to get passed C:\M$FT because they padded their slimmy pockets with Mickey Boy to use his crapware to teach HAHAHAHAHAHA good coding HAHAHAHAH with Visual Shit HAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!! You are a moran its a wonder how much more a moran your boss is. Must be a No Technology shop. Whats the kid going to learn in college nutty professor cannot teach shutup kid you are making me look bad I have tenure to think about and that coed to screw so I have no time for real coders who want to learn and use Linux what the fuck is that are you a big bad hackerboy yada yada yada...... Those kids down the street with a linux box can out code your dumbshit ass in a second and if you give them a chance your boss would realize what a fucking idiot he has been all these years paying you all that money and stock options........shit lets fire your ass and hire the kid who knows his shit. Take your degree and wipe your behind with it your knowledge is from the stone age yeah you can code give him a punch card please because thats all your worth your education was a waste of time and money and you know it. Your a dumbshit who sold his ass out to Microsoft. So yeah tell the kid go to college just long enough until you can retire and make your escape and let the kid have to clean up your shitty code while your golfing and chatting about the good old days when Bill Gates was king and you made your $$$ screwing your customers by writting crapware. Listenup go to work but not this lame ass employer go to http://www.monster.com and http://www.dice.com and look for a company that will value you for your talents and not one that is full of old Windoze Shits still trying to fiqure out how to get passed C:\M$FT. Get the company you work for to pay for your education and take that money you would have wasted on nutty professors and invest in a home, car, and maybe travel a bit and see the world. Got one thing left to say these kids learning linux and hacking away are smarter then you will ever be dumbass at least they have a passion to learn and to code unlike you who was just in it for the money.
Generally speaking, an associate's degree is earned after two years of college / uni, usually a little over 60ish credits...
I went to Northeastern and got great COOP jobs and a Diploma after 5 years. It was a great experience and I was able to live in Boston. I recommend moving from you home town, make new friends, and try different types of jobs. An SA position is a good job but, it can limit your flexability during economic slowdowns.
- Things are the way they are because they're coded that way -
You've already got 400 suggestions (mostly that say go to college) about what to choose. I'm not going to try to suggest either one. If you DO decide to go to college, here's how I'd play it:
- Pick a cool major (or two)
Don't major in Computer Science (unless you want to). Sounds like you've already got a good job picked out, and most of my friends who are working as System Administrators (all of which are college dropouts) are making fat bank. The demand for System Administrators is not shrinking, and won't for a long time.
So major in whatever you want. Study English or Aerospace Engineering or Woody Plants. Do what you want.
None of my friends who are now full time Admins studied Computer Science. They all got jobs as Sys Admins while they were in school.
- Don't study too hard.
Good grades won't ever hurt you, but there's some really important things to do while you're at college. Making lots of friends, hanging out, and meeting lots of girls should be near the top of your list. Study as hard as you want to- and spend the rest of the time hanging out. You'll miss it once you leave school.
- Drink lots of beer.
This helps with aforementioned girls, hanging out, and making new friends.
Whatever you decide to do, think about it first. Consider all your options before making a decision.
I would recommend going to college and having fun if your parents are paying for it. You may never again have that much time to do what you want and you might need the time to learn who you are.
:).
.sig and they will actually mean something to someone because you will know what you are doing.
If you already know who you are and what you want to do, do it and decide later whether you also want a degree. You can always go to college later, maybe in the evening (although being a sysadmin might make it difficult to get evenings off - depends on how stable your systems are
Certifications come second to experience IMO. You need to understand how systems work before you are taught "the Microsoft way" in a classroom. Learn the command prompt on every platform you use - and use all of them that you can.
Then you can get those nice shiny credentials in your
I dropped out of my education, because i got a good job offer. And since i had no money at the time, it seemed like a really good idea to take it. I was also lured by all the promise about certification and other various training, so i dropped out and took the job. Everything went great there, and after being there only one year, i got a better job as a programmer on a intranet product. Everything was dandy, i earned pretty good money and was bacially a happy camper. When i started at this job, i also began to take a two year programming education at nighttime(i didnt want to be the only guy there with no education at all). It went great, and i aced alot of the coding related classes. BUT, then came a cource called "algoriths and datastructures". And here i began to feel the lack of a completed college education, I needed to use ALOT of energy just keeping up with the math, in the end i passed. But i certainly didnt ace that one.
:)
Also on the hobby level I began to have problems with the lack of education. Since I love to code c++ and i love games. I decided to try getting into opengl programming, and this was where it hit me. Im bacially an complete idiot, and I need to learn more math/physics. For each page of opengl doc/text i read, i needed to read 5 pages of math stuff. And after spending an entire weekend on trigemetri,vectors and matrices. I decided that this was stupid, the best way to learn all this was simply to go back to school. So I quitted my job, and began to study fulltime again(after being on the coding team for almost two years). Ive been studying a year now(finishing the programming edu, and starting to take the math/physic/cemistry/english/danish/etc i need to enter the university), and i have a year more to go before i actually can start to take a B.sc EE degree(i choosed enginering because of all the math and physic:). Im going to be 28 when Im done, and a 28 year old graduate probertly wont be the most atractive thing on the job marked. But i dont care, im doing it for the matrial. I want to learn high level math,physics etc.
So what im I trying to say? Bacially this: I think it possible for a self taught person to land a good job, earn good money and everything. But, A. you never know what you want to do in 10 years time, what if you get tired of being a sysad? Then then a college/uni education is worth its weight in gold, because it would make a carrer change way easier. And B. knowledge is nice, chances are that you(like me) will face alot of siturations where you wouldve wished you had stayed in school.
But good luck in the future, what ever path you may choose
Actually you do not have better spelling than him, it is just that you remember how to spell a persons name. I guess you just read 'people' more.
I'm partly through this suggested process. I spent two years in Europe and had a blast. I learned another language, experienced other cultures etc etc. Now I'm 21 married and have a kid coming this September. I'm going to the university full-time and working full-time as a computer operator based on personal experience during and after highschool, and work experience (with A + certification) after highschool. Granted I'm not making bank like the HS dropout whose making $130,000 ( I make 20,000). But I'm on a path that I feel good (although at times worried and confused) about and I know I'm working to better my future.
Just my two cents
Eff the army... check out the air force. As for teh person whining about how you work 24x7 and don't see yer kids, that's rediculous.
I will tell you this from experience. I'm a systems engineer (so they say), and get to work with all kinds of toys. My main job is to provide tech support for our field technicians who install point to point WAN circuits between (mostly) cisco routers, and maintain existing ones. I also conduct site surveys at locations to install new equipment, and i get to play with any new toy they want to put on the network (the playing is fun.. but writin a training guide and giving the class kinda stinks).
So from my experience? That's where I am now, and I have no college (well... maybe 5 or 10 credit hours a long time ago). Forget college. Let me say this slowly....
CERTIFICATIONS
In this field, that's all ppl consider seriously. The 'old timer' managers are still looking for people with degrees, but noone is caring about them anymore. Tech employers want people with certifications.... trust me... you'll be happy you did it.
And as for the military, I was in the Air force for 4 years... sucked em dry of on the job training, got out and have been workin this job now for 6 years. Married and all. I don't seem to remember 24x7 work weeks *shrug*
...I saw plenty o'geekboys getting plenty.
I guess if you go to a somewhat decent-sized college, you'll have a chance with about 15,000 young women aged 18-25. And that's not even counting the girls from other colleges.
I hung out with plenty of engineering and computer science guys and they frequently had chicks tackling them.
I wanted to be a clinical psychologist when I was 18. I'm not even going to tell you what I am now because it would make my career choice at 18 hilarious.
College at least gives you two years before you even have to pick a major. Pick Philosophy, English, Applied Math, Engineering or Theater Arts, either way any job you want is looking for that college degree. Have that plus a few courses in what you plan on doing for the rest of your life and you're set.
Dude, you can't miss what college offers (and go away to college, at least two hours from home so you're not tempted to live at home!) Because it's great friendships, cool people, great parties and some classes in between.
Go or forever regret it.
cl.
I work for a Big Company, and we have folks from many different backgrounds, including degrees in Biology, Agriculture, Music, etc, working in the software and IT departments.
College isn't trade school. If you have the means to go to college after high school, do it. You'll be glad you did, and it may help your career in ways you can't predict now.
--
Ask the Ya-Hoot Oracle Anything!
I dropped out and got a job and make a decent salary doing interesting SA work. I think you really need to search for what will make you happy. In the end, who cares if you made 120k+ year or 35k a year. People will remember you for what you were, what you are, not what you made. Do whatever it takes for you to be happy.
Best of Luck
I realize this is probably a little late and nobody is going to read it, but if it helps at least one person then it has been worth it.
I left school at 16 with 10 GCSEs, As and Bs, to spend some time in Australia. I stayed for a total of 14 months. Had it not been for my parents' choice, I would have stayed as I had already found work and I had planned to enroll in a TAFE course.
Well I returned to England and they forced me into education. I am now at the end of a two year HND and am working as a sysadmin for the very same college. I had applied for the post in the first year, but they never even offered me an interview. A year later they fired the guy because he made a load of personal phone calls and didn't do a great deal. By this time they had taken me on as a contractor to develop an in-house system. Bear in mind that for a HND, I started at 17 which is a year younger than required, and I didn't even have any A-levels. So technically they took me on as a mature student because I have demonstrated my skills were easily sufficient. Without being too modest, I was still more capable then then all the final-year students are now. As I was already doing work for them, they could see that I had the skills they required so they hired me on the spot. I now manage servers on both campuses, as well as the network infrastructure.
Ok if you managed to read all that, you're probably wondering what's the point to this? Well there are two. Firstly, qualifications _can_ get you jobs. A college degree is good, but if I'm hiring someone it is based on their other qualifications, for example Cisco or Microsoft certs. The second point is that its an unfair world, and even if you are way more qualified for the position, they would rather hire somebody they know. SO to sum up, if there is a particular job you are after, you are better to do some freelance work for the comapny first in order to get them acquainted. Then chances are when a position is available they will hire you on the spot.
I know i have not been entirely clear, so please forgive any inaccuracies.. my head works in a strange way...
This goes double for application developers. If you get a solid education first, you will have NO problem picking up any technology out there. I do interviews for my consulting firm, and guess what? The guys who stay current the most tend to be the ones who finished a higher education degree. We're not prejudiced against the ones who have experience only and no degree. But it just happens to be that the ones we most often hire are the ones who finished their degrees. If you finish the degree, you're typically made of sterner stuff than the guy who went for the $$$ right away. Most every employer I've dealt with sees it that way too.
Good luck...
Please mod this post only if you think others should/n't read this. I have enough ego^H^H^Hkarma. Thanks!
I'm the "Network Administrator," whatever that means, for a small, private liberal arts and sciences university in the midwest. I have a B.A. and an M.A. in English Literature. How did I get here? I couldn't tell you. Perhaps it was that I took apart my toys when I was a kid. Sure, I had a few screws leftover when I put them back together again, but that's a different story. Everything worked, though!
Go to university and get a degree, any degree. A degree will get your foot in the door. Anyone who tells you differently should put down the crack pipe and move away from the mouse.
One iteration of my career found me managing an arsenal of techs. Those of which who had degrees were all liberal arts majors with degrees in history, philosophy, english, etc. They were tenacious champs. Liberal arts will give you a perspective that a CS degree cannot give you. CS degrees are clinical, sterile, and single-minded. A CS degree is like getting some Microsoft certification. We all know how well Microsoft does things.
Liberal arts will give you the acumen to think logically, for yourself, and with the tools with which you are familiar. This will server as a basis from which you can grow.
In addition, going to college will afford you the opportunity to consume great quantities of beer and, if you're not irrevocably ugly, get laid by sorority chicks who don't even vaguely understand computers but think that some guy who does might make a lot of money and be a good husband.
is anyone, at 18-19 yrs., ready to plan for retirement? plan for kids? decide their life as college or no college? (I'm certainly not.) flexibility can teach as much //more! as//than stability, if you don't get stuck in the same place by snap decisions.
it's pretty sad that we have to tie ourselves to The System as soon as we get out of highschool. I guess calling it "The System" is a little over-the-top, but when there's that little flexibility ("Look, you have to build your nest egg as soon as possible, that is")...
I aggree with the fact that a college diploma is a good thing to have, because it is an achievement that people will be looking at. also the experience of *learning* -- not just what you learn -- is pretty important to your education later/your ability to adapt to the times.
but when a path is set for us the first day we participate in a fifth grade science fair, are we really invested in what we do? if we've expected to finish highschool... go to college... follow "career path," does that say anything about a person's own initiative? Going to college is great, but if it isn't where you want to be, college can screw up your attitude *and* your resume.
so if you want to be a sys admin right now, go ahead and do it. just don't expect it to last forever... make plans, maybe, to save for college and go in one or two years. or to do something that will broaden your perspective, because no job will last forever (even if you do like it, and especially if you don't).
&&stuff;
College is more than just learning a trade or a skill, it's about learning to think. There are problems you might face which will require a mature approach, and that's what you get in college.
If you're 110% certain that all you want to do is system administration, then you should get certified and try to find a position. Keep in mind, however, that most employers will choose the guy who has a college degree over the person who doesn't.
GJC
Gregory Casamento
## Chief Maintainer for GNUstep
Whatever you choose, make sure you enjoy it and can tolerate it. We were not born to be slaves and work our whole lives... life is here for us to enjoy. Make sure you are happy first and foremost.
This is the most important lesson I have learnt. It matters more to me that I am happy and I am having a good time as opposed to being stressed, overworked and living a rigid lifestyle. If I really wanted I could go and get myself a doctorate in some engineering/science field, however, I have found that following this path will lead me to unhappiness. Follow you own path, and make sure that you are happy.
Just Be Happy and content! In my experience that is what is the most important thing...
Does it go on forever?
You can simply read books... it is MUCH cheaper then college... only go to college if it takes you half a year to read and learn a book.
FREE BEER!
Intelligence is like four wheel drive, having it just means you'll get stuck in more remote places.
Go to college. Live life while you can. Later on in life you will probably regret it if you don't. I chose to get a tech job shortly after high school, and although I am really successful I regret not going to college. Trust me, going to college is far greater than working 60+ hours a weak trying to prove yourself to everyone that you are just as good as the college graduates. And then when you finally get there you would think it would stop, but NO! Now you are stuck with a ton of responsiblity because you have proved yourself and now you manage several other people which means more responsibility and those 60 hour weeks move to 60-80. But the money? Oh yeah, they will pay you well(at least you will think it is well), but the truth is the people that you manage that have college degrees are making more money than you because thier degree demanded more money when they were hired and your salary hasn't moved up as fast as your responsibilities have. But, it's ok, you deal with it, because hey, the job market is dead now and it's going to be hard to get a new job.
:)
Bottom line... Corporate America sucks and they don't care about you, so live life while you don't have many responsibilities because you won't have that kind of freedom later on in life.
And guess who plans on giving up everything and going back to school next year...
do not take the path that most travel, instead go where there is no path and make one. But, you better be prepared to swallow your pride, fall on your face a million times, and learn to put faith in God. College is the answer for most of us, but for some I realize it isn't. Wherever you go, be confident in the descions you make; be able to back them thourughly (i cant spell right now, sorry).
No one has ever made it with help. Embrace the ideas of others no matter how negligble you may think they are.
If you decide to breez through this message, please just read this one thing and remember it forever.
The most intelligent people are the ones who realize they know nothing.
You may understand that right now or blow it off.. but if you dont.. pray that someday you do.
If you've got the funding to afford college, you've got nothing to lose by going, unless you're exceptionally gifted and stand to make lots of money in the short term by working instead. If you don't have a high-paying job lined up, look at it this way. You work for four years at the low end of the IT pay scale, and you have experience and little to no debt (provided you're responsible). Plus, you can work part time on your education if it suits you. Going to school full time, you could still work part time in the field. Even though you might have debt from college loans, you're going to have a better chance at a job when you get out. A few of the simpler certifications you could obtain while going to college, they're so easy (W2K Pro MCP comes to mind, which isn't worth much, but hey, it's cheap to get) I'd say hit the books first. (The other poster who mentioned the dating possibilities was entirely correct: many, many women look for college-educated males. It's a breeding thing)
Now, I have a question. I am 30, and I don't have a degree. I completed about two years of college, and I've been working ever since. Most of my experience has been help desk and hardware support, system building, and some management experience. I have a few certs, but nothing eyecatching to headhunters. I am in a fairly lucrative position now, but it's a year long contract, and I don't know how long they will continue to fund it (military). I would like to put myself in a much more secure position as far as my career prospects. I have a 401-K to borrow against, and I could save up as much as two years tuition as a state college within one year, given my current expenses. Is it going to be worth it to try and finish my IT degree (most likely MIS), given that I might be 35 by the time I do, or do I just need to find that government janitorial job soon, and give up my hopes of home ownership and marriage?
Having just graduated from college (or university, if you want to be nit-picky), I think I have a thing or two worth saying on that particular subject. In no particular order...
1. (Pro) Getting certifications versus getting a degree is very much like the difference between giving a man a fish and teaching him to fish. What certifications say is that you are able to deal satisfactorily with system X. What it (often) implies is that you are not experienced with very much outside of system X (excepting, of course, other certs that you hold), and that when system X gets replaced with system Y and you don't have the cert for that, you're expendable. It also implies that you are an interchangeable cog with respect to the other billion people with the same cert. What having a degree implies is that you probably aren't super-in-touch with any of systems X, Y, or Z. On the other hand, you probably have the wherewithal to do just as well with them as the guy with the cert, given a little bit of time to scramble up the learning curve. It also implies that you know something outside of systems X, Y, and Z -- something more abstract but also more generally applicable. Essentially, you can display some adaptability.
2. (Pro) College is fun.
3. (Pro) If you take the right classes and work hard (enough) at them, college teaches you to think in a way that getting a certification never will. I should admit here that I'm a mathematician (in addition to a computer scientist), so I tend to get a big hard-on about things like strong analytical and abstract thinking skills. YMMV.
4. (Con) College is a business -- not for you, for them. What I mean is that you have to pay them a lot of money and in return they require things of you. It's like some kind of bizarro job where you work crazy hours and pay *them*. That's not to say that it's not rewarding (reference points 1 through 3), just that you should expect to have to jump through some silly hoops and sometimes have to take classes that totally suck, and/or spend 16 straight hours in a lab somewhere. I wouldn't blame you for coming out of it a little jaded about academia.
5. (Misc.) This point is my last, and it isn't so much about college as it is just general advice. System administration is kind of cool, but allow for the possibility that you will become bored with it and want to do something else. Being an MCSE or something like that more-or-less makes you cut out for a limited number of positions. Having a college degree widens the field of possibilities significantly, even to the point of making it possible for you to end up doing something that has *nothing* to do with the degree you hold. Now, you may argue that you can always go to college later, but in reality, the truth is that you won't.
Tastes like burning! - Ralph Wiggum
1. Social experience
2. Sysadmining sucks
3. You can't get a good job without a degree
4. Certs are worthless, except to people you don't want to work for
5. Social experience
6. Social experience
7. Social experience
Need I say more?
I've kind of done both. I started out with university. In my final year I got a good job offer from a company I respected and decided I will split my last year in 2 and start working for them. The first year went ok. I completed the math and theoretical parts which was fairly easy to do in my spare time. I suffered with the second part of last year though. We had practical classes during the day which I could not attend and I lost some exam entrance points there. To cut the longer story short, in the end I never completed my degree. I still need about three subject, but by them I've already had 2 promotions and got fairly interested and busy with my job. I never really made a conscious decision to not finish my degree, practicalities just forced it that way before I fully realized it. Now I'm an IT manager which I wouldn't have been right now if I originally turned down the job offer. However, a degree gives you something very important - the ability to study further. I can't do a MSc or MBA in future before I finish my degree. There's kind of a ceiling now to what I can do to really better/differentiate me, which really sucks. In the end my advice would be to get a degree first. The job market will always be there, but it will be very hard to start studying after a few years of work. And believe me, you *will* get frustrated down the line if you don't have a decent background in math and stats. After all, I know you might not think so now, but chances are fairly good that you'll want to be something other than a system admin when you're 30 or 40. Think about it this way, you will still be able to be a sys admin after you finished your degree, but you'll have opened up so many other doors along the way, which will give you more freedom to choose. Hope this helps.
I've lurked on /. for a couple of years. I read articles that interest me and the often redundant comments. I've never felt inclined to post. Until this one. This is a huge hot-button for me.
/., over 40 and I've the scars to prove it. I've been just about everything in this field: a user, an operator, a sys admin, a developer, pre-sales technical support, project manager, software manager. Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. Through it all, I've regretted not getting the degree first.
I'm an old guy for
Oh, I have a degree. Actually I have multiple degrees, up to and including a masters. All of them earned while working. All paid for by your obedient servant here or by my job, which is virtually the same thing. This is truly the hard way. It doesn't seem so hard when you're young and only responsible for yourself. But it takes forever once you start accumulating responsibilities and tax deductions.
A couple of posters have stated how once you're in the interview, a degree doesn't matter. That's debatable. I know when I'm one the easy side of that table, I want to see a degree to show that you can finish what you start. What's not debatable is that you often have to have a degree to get to the interview.
As I said, I've been a sys admin but I'm not one anymore. It was a fun job in many ways. In other ways it sucks bad. It's a job where if everything is running well, you've done your job to an acceptable level. When things break, everyone in the department is convinced you're a blithering idiot. It's hard work with little reward and a constant on-call nature. That may be fine for you now, but will it always? Might you one day, like me, decide you want to try something else?
If you ever want to explore outside whatever comfort zone you've established, a degree is a requirement. Oh sure, there are always those with anecdotal evidence that you don't really need a degree. With all due apologies, they're wrong - they just have yet to realize it. Face it, you aren't going to be in your twenties forever. Doing the hard-core tech stuff is perceived as a young man's game. To stay in that game and try all the various positions, you need a degree.
One last point is the current economy. Don't know if you've noticed, but it's not real good right now. Especially in the technology areas. Here in Dallas we have so many laid off tech workers it's pathetic. Friends I never thought would be without a job are out of work and getting desparate. When that time comes for you, do you want to be betting the mortgage payment that you can get a job without a degree?
Good luck but for God's sake, go to college!
Get your degree. It won't help you with the social environment, as some suggest. You should've learned that in kindergarten. If you didn't, it's too late now.
What a degree will do is open doors to interviews that won't open otherwise. I would get two, perhaps three times as many interviews if I had finished my degree.
Ultimately a degree won't help much in your job, but you can't prove yourself in a job if you can't even get an interview.
My CNE certification helped me move up the pay scale 4 years ago, but certifications are only good for about a year. After that nobody cares. On the other hand, a degree will benefit you forever.
If I could go back and do one thing different, I would finish my CS degree.
All the best.
Join the armed forces.
In a dream world where you know what you need to do before you do it ... in other words, if I could go back in time and tell myself what to do, just as you are askign us to do here ... I would have double majored in Business Management and Computer Science (figure on 4.5 years with summer school), and at the same time would have gotten my certs. Masters optional, depending on how your career goes.
What did I do? I screwed around in highschool when I should have been teaching myself C prog and planning my future a little better. I ended up getting my BS in Business Mgmt. in 3.5 years at a ho-hum school (GMU).
Luckily, I was a senior editor at the student newspaper, so I was able to get a great job in PR right out of college. The job happened to require HTML and graphics experience, so from there I moved into a career as a ColdFusion dev'er.
We could all recommend to you what to do if you want to be a well-paid sys.admin., but in the end, it's your choice and how the cards are dealt.
It is highly unfair to generalize that self-taught people are less valuable than college-educated people.
I attended college for approximately two years (for Nuclear Engineering - turned out that the job market was almost non-existent). However, the entire time I was there, I kept thinking what a complete and total waste of time school was.
Someone else in this thread complained that vendor certifications were nothing but a cash cow. I don't disagree. In the same vein, what about colleges? Why does a textbook cost $100+? Why do I need to take (at least) two more English classes? Didn't I just finish 12 YEARS of English? If I don't understand the language at that point, their extra 'requirements' aren't going to help at all. It is just a way for them to make more money and to employ people that wouldn't otherwise have a job.
I decided to leave college because it wasn't right for me. I was continually told that I would never be able to get a good job without a degree. Additionally, I have NO vendor certification, and I have never had a computer class in my life.
Neither factor has been an impediment to finding a good job. In fact, I have even been offered jobs that stated a BS as a requirement.
I am currently a System Admin for the second-largest enterprise network in the metro-Atlanta area. I have no degree, no certification, and I am completely self-taught. Will this work for everyone? Not at all. But I believe if you base someone's worth on a piece of paper (either a degree or certification), you may be doing yourself, and your organization, quite a disservice.
I'm posting this in class at the best engineering school in Canada and I can tell you one of the best things about the program is the work experience. Through school I get to learn the stuff you won't get in the field like the queuing theory and probability behind networks and all that. Through work I get to drop the academics and get my hands on racks of switches, routers and servers. There are always lots of jobs for sysadmins (at least the 4+ years I've been here) and you get to learn a lot, move between companies and advance (quickly!) in position and pay.
Look to a co-op university, it's the best of both.
DataSquid.net, a little about me.
No one can give you a perfect, fool-proof formula for succeeding in the IT services industry. Such a formula simply doesn't exist. That being said, I can offer some thoughts on the subject from someone who is currently a Sys Admin, who went to college but didn't graduate and who has man certs.
First things first, as has probably been said to you many times over, college degrees have become terribly important in the job market. An old saying going around when I was in college was that you could have a degree in underwater basket weaving and get a job. It simply didn't matter what your degree was in, so long as you had the piece of paper. That may have changed a bit, but the principle is still the same. A college degree tells prospective employers that you are trainable. Whether you learned what your degree says you are supposed to have learned (which is often not the case), you graduated, so you can be trained.
Unfortunately, there are still a very few major accredited universities/colleges that offer courses related to pure system administration. Often all technology is wrapped up in a "Computer Science/Engineering" lable, which is a disservice to the industry and those of us who find ourselves drawn to administration over hardware design and software development. All is not lost, however, as this trend is beginning to reverse itself.
On the other hand, if you truly want to learn the skills necessary to administer network systems, and you want some recognition of your education, certifications are a great way to show what you know. Generally they are admin specific, involve training that is comprehensive and useful, and are accepted by most employers. Certifications do have a downside; Hundreds of certs are in existance now, all for catering to very specific software or hardware, and all requiring a certain level of expense in obtaining them.
In short, the decision simply has to be your own. However, do not discount either method (or a combination of college and certification) before you explore them. Personally I have found that college was for me a growing experience, making me a more well rounded person, teaching me to think critically and creatively and to problem solve in unknown or unusual circumstances. Not all of the courses directly related to my chosen profession (in fact, very few had any relevance at all to system administration, which is perhaps why I never finished). However, the experience itself was well worth the time and money I spent. I learned much about myself and others (and how to work with them). Certifications and work experience filled in the gaps. I would definitely encourage you to begin working in the field as soon as possible, and to do as much diverse work as possible. You never know when that year you spent maintaining domino servers in a Netware 4 environment will come in handy. I would suggest a position in a consulting/services firm, or even a retail repair shop if you need to grow or brush up your hardware repair skills. Don't be afraid to take lesser paying jobs at the beginning to build up your skills. There is no shame in being a minimum wage screwdriver jockey for a few years so that down the road you will be more marketable. When all is said and done, it is all about making you a skilled, marketable professional.
Good luck.
P.
He's dead Jim. You get his wallet while I distract Spock.
Working in a technical field, the half-life on knowledge is about five years-- that is, five years from now, half of your technical knowledge will be obsolete. You'll have to learn new stuff to replace it. One of the side effects of a decent college program is that you will learn a lot about the process of learning, which will serve you well in a field where you're doomed (or blessed, depending on your perspective) to be a part-time student forever. Few high-school graduates have acquired the needed skills for that kind of ongoing study.
"Ill hold it against you until you prove that college hasnt made you into an idiot. (generally its to late if youre a phd)"
The fact that you appear to be a functioning illiterate means that you've peter-principaled a while ago.
And you're so young, too!
College is about learning. College is about learning how to learn. College is this, college is that...
However, college is the last place you'll be able to go for 3-5 (or more) years and do little except study for exams, skipping lectures, chasing girls, drinking and maintaining a part time job.
The girls and the drinking part are the best.
In many places to hold for too long to a job is seen as a sign of stagnation (nobody considered worth snatching you).
You either decide to make a career somewhere or forget about it. 2 years average per job sounds about right.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
There are schools that offer curriculum in Systems
Administration. Seek them out, and go to a 4-year
program someplace. I left college for a "summer
job" as a sys-admin 5 years ago, and I have never
been back. I've reached the "dead-end"... My
company pays me a *LOT* and it's still not enough
to afford a house out here in Silicon Valley. The
only way i can et more pay is to become a manager.
Guess what!?!? I need proof of a college degree
(Of any sort, really) to move into management to
make more pay.
So now I have to go back to school and start over, since all my credits have long since expired. Save yourself the trouble, and get college over
with first.
smash
It wasn't until I got the job I've got now that I realized what sysadmins really do. Sysadmins don't just keep the servers stable and build new ones. They don't just change lost passwords and nuke the accounts of low-life spammers. I could have done all that when I didn't have any experience in sysadminning at all.
Sysadmins make work go away. We automate things. We make paperwork a thing of the past. We make it so that the damn secretary can change account passwords and nuke accounts. We make managing information a breeze, not a chore. We make billing and accounting the job of one person, not ten. We are modern day wizards who work magic for hire. The systems we use aren't the reason for our existance, they are the actuators of our magic.
And what happens when all the work gets automated away? We keep automating. Making it easier, faster, better. We make it more reliable, more secure, more redundant. If all a sysadmin does is wait for something to fail, then he's either not a sysadmin, or he's not doing his job. And then he wonders why managment scrutinizes his salary and lays him off at the first chance they get.
I highly recommend that anyone considering a career as a sysadmin, should at least once get a job where either there's never been a sysadmin (and thus they have huge mounds of paperwork somewhere that need to be done away with) or get a job on the ground floor where everything needs to be started from scratch. Maybe someday, when everything is perfect and runs itself, you can strike a deal with your boss where you can work on call with a retainer or something, (after all, even though you're doing nothing now, you're the only one that knows anything about how it all works) and move on to the next job - ensuring that you're getting paid more than your boss thinks you are. After a few years, you would probably be able to make a living off the part-time stuff.
"No problem. I have the capacity to do infinite work so long as you don't mind that my quality approaches zero."-Dilbert
With the tech industry still on the ropes and many experienced SysAdmin's unemployed and looking for work, you'll likely have trouble finding entry level work without a degree. That said, the tech industry will swing back up once the rest of the economy gets firmly back on its feet and starts growing again. This could happen in a few months or a year or two, but it will happen.. And when it does, there will be a huge demand for SysAdmin's. Experience will once again be more important than education and if you're still in school and stay in school you might miss your window of opportunity.
My recommendation is this. Go to school. Study and learn. Take some software programming courses (yes I know you don't want to be a programmer, but a SysAdmin who knows how to program is a valuable assett). But watch the industry.. Get an unpaid internship as a Jr. IT person (there's not a lack of need for IT people, there's just a lack of money). Get a few certifications.. When you see the industry opening up and demanding experience over education, leave school and go to work.. You can always go back to school later if you decide to.
It's unfortunate that you're coming into the industry just now, but if you watch it closely and plan carefully, you might be able to get in at just the right point and make a name for yourself.
"We can make this work, but you're going to need a screwdriver, pocketknife and some duck tape."
Believe it or not you eventually will need to have skills above and beyond those that are purely technical in nature to survive.
In a tight market it is one more thing that will
separate you from the others in the market place.
A college degree is a certification. No ther IT certification will hold its value longer than a college degree.
Gozer: Are you a God?
Ray: Well, no.
Gozer: Then die.
Our Heroes: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGgggghhhhh!
Winston: Ray, if someone asks are you a god you say, yes!
You work at a surviving startup who is trying to save money by hiring people with a less credentials than many people in the market posess. If you continue to survive you will spend alot of money maintaining your codebase, if you have large programming projects.
This thread is long since dead, but i wanted to point out that that is incorrect: I dont attempt to hire lower-credential people. Its just that ive observed firsthand an inverse correlation between education and skill. Also, from what I can glean the pays are above average (competitive industry sector for employees).
Also, code is art. There is no one right way to do it, there are many disparate ways to solve a problem, and alot of it comes down to personal style. (alot of "engineering" is like this as well). Its art because it is design work, which requires creativity.
Erm... Bill Gates got in on computers when there were relatively few courses available for it, and they were basic at best. Also keep in mind that he quit the last year, so he was almost finished anyway. And by the way, spelling is my worst subject yet I still make good grades.
If you have to ask, you'll never know.
Another thing to keep in mind, is that no matter what, even if the hi-tech field goes to crap, with a degree of any kind, people know you have the proper skills necessary to learn something else. A degree in CS or EE doesn't necessarily have to be used there, so it gives you something to fall back on.
I tried going to college several times over the last 3 years, and it just doesn't work. When developing troubleshooting skills and creating a spiderwebbed personal knowlege base, toying with a collegic system is a fantastic inhibitor. I've found a simple truth because of this: if there's a degree on the wall, talk slow and use small words. Get a degree later, work now.
---------
Launch all sig
Do you know what this job actually involves ? To an ex-sysadmin this is a bit like saying you want to be a janitor, or a sewage worker.
You will have to deal with morons most of the day.
Have you read the paper at ALL? EXPERIENCED sysadmins are pounding the pavement. IF they can find work (a VERY big "if"), they're taking pay cuts just to be employed. What chance do illiterate snot-nosed teenagers like yourself have? NONE!
Son, you'd better learn that, regardless of what you "wan't", the world is not your oyster. Be that as it may, I would suggest looking for a new line of work. With all of the H1Bs and outsourcing of IT projects to India, IT just isn't a viable long-term career anymore.
A couple hundred posts from other wise Slashdotters will tell you why to go to college to better your career. It will make you more attractive to employers, yada yada yada.
My advice - go to college. But for these reasons:
1. Beer parties
2. Doing stupid shit with people you barely know
3. Road trips
4. Sororities (no, not being in them)
5. Girls exploring their female assertiveness
6. An excuse for lousy clothes (I'm a student)
7. Student discounts for another 4+ years
8. Awesome buddies that will be different from those you made in high school
9. A happier mom
Go to college if its important to you. But I do not think you need to go to college to be a good sysadmin, or a good developer, or a good network engineer blah blah..... Just remember, you gotta start somewhere. You arent going to graduate college or IT boot camp (ACK!!!!) and start making 70,000 /per year in most if any places. Most booters and CS majors I talk with have the 60 - 70 K starting salary blurring their sense of reality, no doubt a side effect of NAS induced by uncontrolled doses of radio and television signals.
Another thing, I have read enough inferences to CS degrees here to cross my eyes and cause uncontrollable quantities of foam and saliva to fall from my mouth. CS is for, maybe developers(programmers)!@# There is more to syadmin than software. You gotta have a hardware background. I am in no way suggesting CE (Computer Engineering) is the way to go but it certainly is a better mold. If you dont know how your hardware works, or even if its working properly, you lack fundamental sysadmin skeelz. I used to work with a couple of admins who were CS graduates. All they did was sit around and write shell scripts, and VB crap (we were a Sun/Linux shop) but could do nothing for trend analysis w/ respect to hardware degradation.
Whatever happend to doing what you want because you love doing it... I make about the average salary for sysadmin in my geopraphic location which by the way is 20+K more than the average income in my state so the salary is not bad. I accept the hours, and the firemans hat when necessary. But for the most part my hours are 9am to 6pm. To overgeneralize by sayin that "sysadminig sux because of the long hours" and "developers get paid more than you" "or to "be a doctor so you make more money for the same on call hours" is a jaded and obscene diservice. You probably just dont like your job and are in the wrong line of work. IT isnt for everybody, and there for a while IT was attracting people just because it paid well. To those of you complaining about money and job hours, why dont you pick a profession that you love doing... not one that pays a certain amount. I guess Im lucky in many ways.. I am getting paid to do what I love. I have a sincere passion for being a sysadmin.
The truely good Admins will be around for a long time. My advice for an aspiring Admin. Never stop learning and never pass the buck. Accept responsibility for your actions, and do not ever settle for "good enough" I promise you college cant teach you any of those things. There is no piece of paper in this world that compares to real experience.
Before I get flamed ... lets see.. .been a sysadmin since 1995, yes Im married, 2kids, boat, my own home. I fish with my son every weekend. Love beer and football. I am a college graduate (sociology, and I only did it because its a personal goal of mine) So comments about geek with no life do not count.
Peace