Given how thoroughly Iran has been schooling Obama, I'd bet money Fiorina could stand up to Iran better.
Iran is soon to be a nuclear power and is now taking their own damn samples to find out if they're cheating their agreement with Obama. Given that Iran had already broken the NPT that they'd signed, Iran breaking an agreement with a weakling like Obama is a foregone conclusion.
Yep, the Middle East will be a really fun place after the fruits of Obama's capitulation to Iran become apparent - and Saudi Arabia and Egypt both start working on getting nuclear weapons. Think with all those nukes floating around those wonderfully stable regimes, ISIS will be able to get their medieval paws on a few so they can pop 'em off in New York, Washington, London, or - in an attempt to return al Andalus to the realm of Islam - Madrid?
It wouldn't exactly be hard for Fiorina to better Obama given how Obama's reached rock bottom and has started blasting his way to China.
Bibi, if you're going to post here, at least create an account.
And it just happens to be among the most evil acts that human beings can commit, as it is not merely about killing somebody, it is about complete destruction of a person.
Unfortunately in 2015, despite all of our experience, there are many people who think the ends justify the means. They still do not understand that the means determine the ends.
Intellectuals think this answer is clever but it's completely wrong. Humanity might take a few thousand years, but eventually we figure out the world's not flat. Torture has been around far longer than that, clearly because its effective.
Really, is that the only conclusion you can come to? Even if correct, the next question is, "Effective at what?"
People being tortured certainly may say anything, but it's not like they let you go free afterwards. The threat is that if you're lying, they're going to come back and make it even worse. Eventually the threat is to be merciful and just kill you outright. It always works.
You seem tot be under the impression that the point of torture is to elicit reliable information that can be used to stop bad actors. That is what we have been told, after all. However, I would counter that the point of torture is to elicit confessions. You know, so you can say things like "Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the self-professed mastermind of 9/11". For that it is indeed quite effective.
There was a great episode of the old Penn & Teller show "Bullshit!" that dealt with this. They hired a bunch of random people as security monitors, gave them access to surveillance cameras, and told them not to use the cameras to spy on people's private lives (only on the fake security perimeter). Sure enough, 90% of them used the cameras to spy on people's personal shit.
Now couple that with the results of the Zimbardo Prison Study and you see how we got where we are and where we are going.
The idea is not to admit the fruits of warrantless searches and coerced confessions, but to avoid suppressing valid evidence for pointless technical reasons.
The technical reasons are not pointless. They are there to keep Law Enforcement honest. It seems they are not entirely successful on that front.
If they discover valid evidence by violating your rights, you don't really have rights. As always, the ends don't justify the means. Police and prosecutors bitch about technicalities because they don't care about your rights; they only care about convicting you, guilty or not. It is entirely proper that a guilty person go free on a technicality. It shows that even guilty people have rights, as it should be.
If the NSA's intrusive powers, constitutionality aside, are all about terrorists, what in God's name are they doing passing normal crime info on to the FBI and DEA?
I don't think this revealation is all that secret. I recall some extra special terrorist power being granted to the FBI late Clinton era, and they immediately used it to bust drug people. They didn't even bother with the sophistry that drug distribution is a kind of terrorism.
No, when asked directly, they said, "Well, I know what we promised to use it only for terrorists, but the law doesn't actually state terrorist investigations only, so tuff." They lied to get it through Congress, then immediately began misusing it in a way only a lawyer or someone planning to throw a coup would find reasonable.
Yes, or course. I remember back in 2001 or 2002 discussing all the new powers the government gave itself with a friend of mine. He actually believed it would only be used for terrorism cases. I was stunned by the naivete. Anyone with any sense should have known that any new powers will be used for any damn thing the Feds want.
If you life off is selling ad impressions, it sounds like the system works perfectly. The goal of a for-profit company is never to deliver you a product or service, that is only a means to an end.
Seriously, the only people who should have a problem with this are people who are trying to coast through their job and fly under the radar. Those of us who give 110% each and every day have nothing to worry about because we'll always be at the leading edge of the curve.
So, if I have nothing to hide I have nothing to fear? Besides, no one gives 110% every day. If they did, they'd be burned out in a year. Then there are the places that just fire the bottom 10% regardless. Yeah, that sounds like a great place to work. I would really feel valued as a human being.
Instead of using technology to reduce working hours and "trickling down" benefits to everyone, we use it for things like this!
Indeed. And with a 65% workforce participation rate. Just one more indication (as if we needed another) that the current system serves owners, not labor.
Either you are sitting in Russia or china being paid OR you are one big idiot. Russia and China spy on their citizens far more than does America.
Considering these are all secret projects, on all sides, I don't think there is any basis on which to make a comparison. The truth is we don't really know who spies on whom or to what extent.
Funny but seriously why is preventing the crime through intervention never a solution. If you know someone is poor and unemployed and likely to start robbing them maybe we can provide them with services to become skilled and get a job. Jeez at least feed the poor guy. We will anyway if he's incarcerated.
"I said the police were powerless to help you, not punish you."
Sorry, we don't really help people in America. We are happy to punish you if you step out of line, but to extend a helping hand? Sounds like welfare and Socialism to me! People have to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, just like all those rich, successful folks did! They did it, why can't everyone? Must be some moral failing, I tell ya! Lock 'em up before they come for my stuff!
I wouldn't call someone who can read plain crime data a racist. You can argue all day along about the social reasons WHY crime data says what it says, and the GP may very well BE a racist, but the statement, as it stands, is factually correct. Unfortunately, people who aren't racists and simply want to point out facts will be immediately bundled in with KKK members for stating simple, plain truths. Go Political Correctness!
Really? I'll take your word on Blacks, since their troubles are well known (not trying to be racist here; the Black community has been getting a raw deal in America for at least 300 years). Do you have stats on Mexicans' crime rates?
"The goal is to do all they can to prevent the crime from happening."
How can you know if you have succeeded? How do you know what would have happened if you hadn't done something? Unfortunately, reality does not have a control group.
The magnetic field is needed to shield the ionizing radiation, but little else. You can terraform it, but it'd be needing hardier lifeforms more resilient to radiation exposure to do it.
Isn't it needed to keep the solar wind from blowing the atmosphere into space?
are people getting picked up on those laws? I am sure there is a law some where on the books about not having sweaters on pigs or some such nonsense that is never enforced.
I doubt it. But who knows? I would rather have these laws off the books if they aren't going to be enforced.
I don't know about that, 'Nero' sounds kind of ethnic to me. You need something 'Muricanised like 'Explodey McKillemall', that way you should fit right in.
On a serious note though, yes the school screwed up; or more accurately one teacher screwed up and the administration is standing behind him (hey corporate America, please start taking notes here). But do you mean to tell me that by the 9th grade this kid couldn't play this scenario out in his head before taking the device to school? Kids younger than him are being arrested for poptarts, and that one wasn't even "foreign looking". Whether it was the kid or his father, someone here knew what was going to happen and was being intentionally antagonistic. After having seen their interview this morning I refuse to believe that either one of them is clueless enough to have not seen this coming. 9th grade isn't the place for political protests.
So, what you're saying is that these people should watch what they say and do, since they could run afoul of the authorities even if their activities are legal. They should realize what a frightened, racist, bigoted society they live in and adjust their own behavior accordingly. Do I have that right?
In an ideal world, a Muslim should be able to walk into a mall in Tel Aviv with a giant box marked "Allah Akbar!!! Death to Israel!" with a giant countdown timer on it and shop in peace, unmolested. But here in the real world, when a Muslim kid shows up in a crowded place carrying a box with some sort of timer on it--yes people get nervous. You can't just bury your head in the sand and pretend that we live in an ideal world, nice as it would be if we did.
So why aren't you working toward that ideal world instead of making apologies for the admitted inferior world?
You make a judgement call, and the teachers here erred on the side of caution. Imagine if this kid was a terrorist and it actually was a bomb, and they had done nothing. I bet you would be the first first person screaming "A muslim kid who no one knows shows up to school carrying a box with a timer on it and NO ONE SAYS ANYTHING??"
No, you would be screaming that. I would be thinking how sad it is that some kid could be driven to do such a thing. When bad people do bad things, it is the fault of the bad people; not the authorities' for failing to prevent it.
I'm sorry for this kid. I know he didn't ask to be born into a religion known in its modern incarnation for bombings and terrorism. Sucks for him, no doubt. But that's just the way it is.
I'm sorry for this kid too. He didn't ask to be born into a society so hysterical with fear that they'd hand cuff him for building a simple electronic clock, and then blame him for their overreaction. He doesn't understand the power of the Media to stoke irrational fear of an entire religion based on one horrific event that happened before he was even born. But he's learning now, eh?
The ironic thing is that the vast majority of terror attacks on US soil-particularly bombings-have been perpetrated by "pure-bred caucasian John Smiths". McVeigh, Roof, Columbine, Aurora CO, 1996 Olympics, Unabomber, etc. Incidents such as these dwarf the number of incidents perpetrated by Muslims.
I don't know, that's not the impression the news gave me!
These are school teachers, not bomb experts. All they know is that it was a box with some sort of digital timer on it. You think they were going to perform a full forensic analysis of it before they called the cops?
No, they are not. The police should have someone who is. That someone should have examined the device, found it to be benign, and returned it to the student.
Slashdot Mirror
How's that "red line" in Syria holding up?
Given how thoroughly Iran has been schooling Obama, I'd bet money Fiorina could stand up to Iran better.
Iran is soon to be a nuclear power and is now taking their own damn samples to find out if they're cheating their agreement with Obama. Given that Iran had already broken the NPT that they'd signed, Iran breaking an agreement with a weakling like Obama is a foregone conclusion.
Yep, the Middle East will be a really fun place after the fruits of Obama's capitulation to Iran become apparent - and Saudi Arabia and Egypt both start working on getting nuclear weapons. Think with all those nukes floating around those wonderfully stable regimes, ISIS will be able to get their medieval paws on a few so they can pop 'em off in New York, Washington, London, or - in an attempt to return al Andalus to the realm of Islam - Madrid?
It wouldn't exactly be hard for Fiorina to better Obama given how Obama's reached rock bottom and has started blasting his way to China.
Bibi, if you're going to post here, at least create an account.
Tabulating machines were not computers. Nor were comptometers. There were analog computers before digital ones, but IBM didn't make them.
Do you seriously not know this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust
This is known history, and not controversial.
And it just happens to be among the most evil acts that human beings can commit, as it is not merely about killing somebody, it is about complete destruction of a person.
Unfortunately in 2015, despite all of our experience, there are many people who think the ends justify the means. They still do not understand that the means determine the ends.
Intellectuals think this answer is clever but it's completely wrong. Humanity might take a few thousand years, but eventually we figure out the world's not flat. Torture has been around far longer than that, clearly because its effective.
Really, is that the only conclusion you can come to? Even if correct, the next question is, "Effective at what?"
People being tortured certainly may say anything, but it's not like they let you go free afterwards. The threat is that if you're lying, they're going to come back and make it even worse. Eventually the threat is to be merciful and just kill you outright. It always works.
You seem tot be under the impression that the point of torture is to elicit reliable information that can be used to stop bad actors. That is what we have been told, after all. However, I would counter that the point of torture is to elicit confessions. You know, so you can say things like "Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the self-professed mastermind of 9/11". For that it is indeed quite effective.
There was a great episode of the old Penn & Teller show "Bullshit!" that dealt with this. They hired a bunch of random people as security monitors, gave them access to surveillance cameras, and told them not to use the cameras to spy on people's private lives (only on the fake security perimeter). Sure enough, 90% of them used the cameras to spy on people's personal shit.
Now couple that with the results of the Zimbardo Prison Study and you see how we got where we are and where we are going.
To make it amply clear: If secret agencies feed law enforcement in your state, then you life in a police state or worse.
I would argue that the US is already a police state. It's just subtle enough (and portrayed in the Media in such a way) that most people don't notice.
The idea is not to admit the fruits of warrantless searches and coerced confessions, but to avoid suppressing valid evidence for pointless technical reasons.
The technical reasons are not pointless. They are there to keep Law Enforcement honest. It seems they are not entirely successful on that front.
If they discover valid evidence by violating your rights, you don't really have rights. As always, the ends don't justify the means. Police and prosecutors bitch about technicalities because they don't care about your rights; they only care about convicting you, guilty or not. It is entirely proper that a guilty person go free on a technicality. It shows that even guilty people have rights, as it should be.
If the NSA's intrusive powers, constitutionality aside, are all about terrorists, what in God's name are they doing passing normal crime info on to the FBI and DEA?
I don't think this revealation is all that secret. I recall some extra special terrorist power being granted to the FBI late Clinton era, and they immediately used it to bust drug people. They didn't even bother with the sophistry that drug distribution is a kind of terrorism.
No, when asked directly, they said, "Well, I know what we promised to use it only for terrorists, but the law doesn't actually state terrorist investigations only, so tuff." They lied to get it through Congress, then immediately began misusing it in a way only a lawyer or someone planning to throw a coup would find reasonable.
Yes, or course. I remember back in 2001 or 2002 discussing all the new powers the government gave itself with a friend of mine. He actually believed it would only be used for terrorism cases. I was stunned by the naivete. Anyone with any sense should have known that any new powers will be used for any damn thing the Feds want.
If you life off is selling ad impressions, it sounds like the system works perfectly. The goal of a for-profit company is never to deliver you a product or service, that is only a means to an end.
That gets to the heart of the problem, actually.
Seriously, the only people who should have a problem with this are people who are trying to coast through their job and fly under the radar. Those of us who give 110% each and every day have nothing to worry about because we'll always be at the leading edge of the curve.
So, if I have nothing to hide I have nothing to fear? Besides, no one gives 110% every day. If they did, they'd be burned out in a year. Then there are the places that just fire the bottom 10% regardless. Yeah, that sounds like a great place to work. I would really feel valued as a human being.
Instead of using technology to reduce working hours and "trickling down" benefits to everyone, we use it for things like this!
Indeed. And with a 65% workforce participation rate. Just one more indication (as if we needed another) that the current system serves owners, not labor.
Either you are sitting in Russia or china being paid OR you are one big idiot. Russia and China spy on their citizens far more than does America.
Considering these are all secret projects, on all sides, I don't think there is any basis on which to make a comparison. The truth is we don't really know who spies on whom or to what extent.
Bernie Sanders would be better.
Funny but seriously why is preventing the crime through intervention never a solution. If you know someone is poor and unemployed and likely to start robbing them maybe we can provide them with services to become skilled and get a job. Jeez at least feed the poor guy. We will anyway if he's incarcerated.
"I said the police were powerless to help you, not punish you."
Sorry, we don't really help people in America. We are happy to punish you if you step out of line, but to extend a helping hand? Sounds like welfare and Socialism to me! People have to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, just like all those rich, successful folks did! They did it, why can't everyone? Must be some moral failing, I tell ya! Lock 'em up before they come for my stuff!
I wouldn't call someone who can read plain crime data a racist. You can argue all day along about the social reasons WHY crime data says what it says, and the GP may very well BE a racist, but the statement, as it stands, is factually correct. Unfortunately, people who aren't racists and simply want to point out facts will be immediately bundled in with KKK members for stating simple, plain truths. Go Political Correctness!
Really? I'll take your word on Blacks, since their troubles are well known (not trying to be racist here; the Black community has been getting a raw deal in America for at least 300 years). Do you have stats on Mexicans' crime rates?
The primary role of the police is to protect the rich from the poor. Any protections granted TO the poor are secondary and generally accidental.
I can't disagree. And that's unfortunate, because in my philosophy one of the prime roles of government is to protect the weak from the strong.
From TFA:
"The goal is to do all they can to prevent the crime from happening."
How can you know if you have succeeded? How do you know what would have happened if you hadn't done something? Unfortunately, reality does not have a control group.
The magnetic field is needed to shield the ionizing radiation, but little else. You can terraform it, but it'd be needing hardier lifeforms more resilient to radiation exposure to do it.
Isn't it needed to keep the solar wind from blowing the atmosphere into space?
Honestly, these things stop mattering once you stop being poor. Or 16. Whichever.
LOL, what a dick! Lots of stuff stops mattering once you stop being poor, you insensitive clod.
are people getting picked up on those laws? I am sure there is a law some where on the books about not having sweaters on pigs or some such nonsense that is never enforced.
I doubt it. But who knows? I would rather have these laws off the books if they aren't going to be enforced.
I don't know about that, 'Nero' sounds kind of ethnic to me. You need something 'Muricanised like 'Explodey McKillemall', that way you should fit right in.
On a serious note though, yes the school screwed up; or more accurately one teacher screwed up and the administration is standing behind him (hey corporate America, please start taking notes here). But do you mean to tell me that by the 9th grade this kid couldn't play this scenario out in his head before taking the device to school? Kids younger than him are being arrested for poptarts, and that one wasn't even "foreign looking". Whether it was the kid or his father, someone here knew what was going to happen and was being intentionally antagonistic. After having seen their interview this morning I refuse to believe that either one of them is clueless enough to have not seen this coming. 9th grade isn't the place for political protests.
So, what you're saying is that these people should watch what they say and do, since they could run afoul of the authorities even if their activities are legal. They should realize what a frightened, racist, bigoted society they live in and adjust their own behavior accordingly. Do I have that right?
In an ideal world, a Muslim should be able to walk into a mall in Tel Aviv with a giant box marked "Allah Akbar!!! Death to Israel!" with a giant countdown timer on it and shop in peace, unmolested. But here in the real world, when a Muslim kid shows up in a crowded place carrying a box with some sort of timer on it--yes people get nervous. You can't just bury your head in the sand and pretend that we live in an ideal world, nice as it would be if we did.
So why aren't you working toward that ideal world instead of making apologies for the admitted inferior world?
You make a judgement call, and the teachers here erred on the side of caution. Imagine if this kid was a terrorist and it actually was a bomb, and they had done nothing. I bet you would be the first first person screaming "A muslim kid who no one knows shows up to school carrying a box with a timer on it and NO ONE SAYS ANYTHING??"
No, you would be screaming that. I would be thinking how sad it is that some kid could be driven to do such a thing. When bad people do bad things, it is the fault of the bad people; not the authorities' for failing to prevent it.
I'm sorry for this kid. I know he didn't ask to be born into a religion known in its modern incarnation for bombings and terrorism. Sucks for him, no doubt. But that's just the way it is.
I'm sorry for this kid too. He didn't ask to be born into a society so hysterical with fear that they'd hand cuff him for building a simple electronic clock, and then blame him for their overreaction. He doesn't understand the power of the Media to stoke irrational fear of an entire religion based on one horrific event that happened before he was even born. But he's learning now, eh?
The ironic thing is that the vast majority of terror attacks on US soil-particularly bombings-have been perpetrated by "pure-bred caucasian John Smiths". McVeigh, Roof, Columbine, Aurora CO, 1996 Olympics, Unabomber, etc. Incidents such as these dwarf the number of incidents perpetrated by Muslims.
I don't know, that's not the impression the news gave me!
This is racial profiling and overeacting. They didn't take the time to check.
Which is ironic, since they had a clock right there.
Does the device tell time?
Does the device contain explosives?
These are school teachers, not bomb experts. All they know is that it was a box with some sort of digital timer on it. You think they were going to perform a full forensic analysis of it before they called the cops?
No, they are not. The police should have someone who is. That someone should have examined the device, found it to be benign, and returned it to the student.