Shifting doesn't take much time at all. In a drag from 0-60 you'll have to shift once (most manufacturers gear their cars to top out at 60mph in 2nd for a reason;)). I would give you an extra 0.1 seconds for the difference, at best. I say 0.1 seconds, because that appears to be the difference that I've seen between manual transmissions and CVT's in the 0-60.
I don't know where you got some of your skidpad ratings from, but some of them look somewhat "off". For example, Edmunds lists an '00 Miata at 0.89g.
Most of those cars you listed don't have skidpads that are spectacular compared to the Tzero. Notable exceptions include the Dialbo, Cobra, Viper, Porche, and the Z06. IMO, anything in the neighborhood of 0.90 is doing pretty good.
And you're right -- it is hard to compare skidpad ratings. Different tires can make a dramatic difference, for instance. Lowered suspention, different shocks/springs, too make a diff. But I'm sure you'd argue that for $70k that you shouldn't need to do any of that.;) I would argue that they probably made a sacrafice between raw handling and ride quality.
Yeah, it's an expensive car. I'll never own one. I'll never buy a porche either. Hell, I can't figure out why people spend 50k on an SUV that they use to drive back and forth to work.
But seriously, you don't spend that kind of money on any car for "practicality", value, or performance in it's class -- Ferrari would be out of business if that were true; most of their cars can be outperformed/matched by less expensive vehicles. You do it to stroke your ego.
The other thing that doesn't seem to be taken into account is how much more expensive it is to make an EV compared to a similarly spec'd gas powered auto. You think NiMH batteries are expensive at $20 for 4? Try buying 1200lbs of 'em (I'll admit that I can't tell how much the batteries alone would cost, but they're not cheap... I'm sure it would compare to the amount spent on batteries for solar powered racers).
The same person who's got enough money to have a porche for every day of the week. Let's face it, a car like this isn't meant to be something you drive around town day in and day out.
Bikes can be fast. Bikes are usually a lot cheaper than cars. Hell, if you get something like a Ninja you can roast most anything on the road. But you have to like bikes. And you have to be willing to tolerate the extra hazard of driving one -- the extra hazard being severe injury/death in a highway accident. You also have to be willing to tolerate the loss of creature comforts a car provides.
A skidpad test isn't a measure of how quickly it breaks -- they will provide a braking distance from 60-0 (or 70-0) if they want to demonstrate that. The skidpad is a measure of how hard the car can throw you against the door in a turn.
For example, the car grips the road enough to produce pull 0.88g's in a turn.
The car itself weighs 2400lbs... which while light, isn't a mind bogglingly low weight. The Honda S2000 weighs 2600lbs for example.
Having an engine that can't be shifted isn't exactly what I'd call an advantage, unless you think that your car would work better in 4th gear all the time.
The reason it IS so fast is the powerband of the electric motor. Unlike petrol based engines that have a nice rounded powerband, electric motors reach their peak torque quickly. Not only that, but they hold that torque across the powerband. The other reason is that the drivetrain is more efficient than what'd you find on a typical petrol powered car.
Compared to an equal sized car with similar "paper" numbers, this car IS amazingly fast. The closest thing you can probably come to it on paper is the S2000, which makes 200hp and only weighs 200lbs more. It reaches 60 nearly 2 seconds faster.
The fact that the car can only be driven 100 miles at 60mph is rather prominately stated on their website. It's not like they try and hide that fact from you.
Range: No EV is going to deliver great range. They don't need to either, because you can't recharge them in a reasonable amount of time (5 minutes). What does this mean? No cross country trips. So you're "stuck" driving it around town. How many people in this country actually drive more than 100 miles in a day, around town. You'll find that people who do WON'T be driving this car (real-estate agents, for example). As a person who drives a LOT every day, a 100 mile range isn't unreasonable.
People also need to stop thinking about electric cars compared to normal gas cars. Just because you can go 2 weeks without stopping by a gas station doesn't mean you need an EV to do the same.
0.88g on the skidpad is also rather respectable. It isn't very good compared to the F550, but it's right there with most other cars in the "sport" class.
The reason why this car is a big deal is that it helps eliminate the stereotype that electric cars are slugs. If you want an EV that can give a Diablo a run for it's money you can have one.
Actually, in the midwest it's a decent salary. In the midwest you can get a decent sized apartment for $500/mo. On the coast, you're looking at $900/mo for a small apartment.
It's not spectacular pay, but not bad. It'd be crap on the coasts.
Polk makes some pretty decent stuff. The best thing they make IMO is their powered subs. They're one of the only companies filling in the gap between the $1000 wonderboxes (the ones you'd never think were a sub because it sounds like the audio was coming from your mains) and the $200 crapboxes you'll find at best buy (those powered subs with 12" subs only capable of producing 2 tones rather loudly).
The higher end companies have servo controled ports in the back to reduce the "fweeting" noise you'd get coming out of ports.
Polk has this large golf tee like thing that goes into the ports which does the same thing. There is almost NO port noise -- it's an EXCELLENT compromise. The $1000 subs sound is obviously more controlled, but the Polk one that I own is VERY close at half the price.
You can EASILY tap out $1500 putting together a good audio system.
Personally, I'd spend my money on good quality speakers and an amp that puts out clean power (not necessarily the best, but won't damage the speakers with dirt output). I say this because the speakers effect the sound produced more than any other component in the system you will buy (aside from the room itself).
If you want more "oomph" than sound quality, you can spend more on a better amp and a bit less on speakers without sacraficing much.
The system I currently have consists of a pair of B&W 602 mains and a Polk PSW550 sub. Those two items alone cost $1100. I still havn't bought a center channel ($350) or surrounds ($500). And I havn't really looked into some of the DTS/AC3 decoders yet (drool) which run some serious bucks as well, nor have I seriously looked at really good amps.
I'd recommend you go to your local home theatre store. The place I got my stuff from was awesome -- they didn't push specific products and they knew their stuff. A good store will have salespeople that can take into account your budget and put together a system that will give you the best bang for your buck. I'd recommend you try that route, or at the very least visit a store with some cds/dvds in hand to get a feel for how much money you'll have to spend for a certain sound.
Actually, most movies available on tape cost around $20 apeice before DVD's came out. Now DVD's cost $20 a pop and VHS tapes are starting at about $12 (with the "bargin bin" tapes going for $8).
VHS got cheaper -- dvd's didn't get more expensive.
The problem was that there were people IN LINE WAITING TO VOTE before 7pm. They were all told to go home.
I suppose it should be ok to have one booth for every district in the state and have every person in the district use that booth -- and if they can't get in there in time, tough shit. It isn't right. The districts that had the massive lines WERE NOT PROPERLY PREPARED for the number of people that showed up to vote.
The reason why this wasn't FAIR is because people who showed up before 7 in other places across the state were actually ABLE TO VOTE.
These people didn't wait until the last minute. Some were waiting in line since 5:30!!!
Sheesh...the polls were supposed to be open to anyone who arrived before 7. Why the hell should I interpret that as "the polls are open till 7, but get there 4 hours ahead of time just in case"...
Got to the polling places at 6:00pm. I left work at 4:30. It sounds alot easier than it is.
While the person you are replying to didn't make this point, here is the one being overlooked...
The people bitching about NS6 not being standards compliant right now are the same exact people who said about a month ago "Dangit, hurry up and release the thing and fix the bugs later."
As you said, the fact that it's on the chipset is cool as hell. However, there are additional advantages to putting it on the chipset over traditional L3 caches. Lower latencies and higherbandwidth are the big ones.
You've got bandwidth going to/from the processor. You've also got the extra bandwidth going to/from main from the L3 cache memory. Then you've got the bandwidth going to/from the southbridge, agp bus which I'd be willing to bet they're have pass through the L3 cache...
It's still more bandwidth than required, but more of it can be used than you think.
I can say SSE is a hacktogether response, because one month after 3dnow came out the SSE instructions suddently because a feature on the PIII.
If it wasn't a hacktogether response there wouldn't have been an SSE2 so soon afterwards.
I actually do suspect they were working on something like it, however I think it was meant to be put into the P4 or later generation of processor.
128bit multiplies vs 64bit multiplies don't mean jack unless you want a 128bit result. Currently, the theoretical speed of both "instruction sets" is identical. 4 64bit registers vs 2 128bit registers..."When fully implemented" also supports the "shit, we gotta put this stuff in the PIII now!" response.
I don't see the developer support for it. Frankly I don't care. Anything that really matters has support for both instruction sets.
Dude, the MP forum is this week. All sorts of computer related stuff going on. After it's over there won't be a ton of MP related crap on the front page. Deal with it.
This is a chipset created by Micron. You know, the guys who are really good at making embedded SDRAM. There was a big noise about it about a year or two ago before it fell off the charts. Looks like they did something usefull with it this time;).
So when you get right down to it, AMD can only gain from this. They can't loose, because they're not the ones making it.
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Shifting doesn't take much time at all. In a drag from 0-60 you'll have to shift once (most manufacturers gear their cars to top out at 60mph in 2nd for a reason ;)). I would give you an extra 0.1 seconds for the difference, at best. I say 0.1 seconds, because that appears to be the difference that I've seen between manual transmissions and CVT's in the 0-60.
;) I would argue that they probably made a sacrafice between raw handling and ride quality.
... I'm sure it would compare to the amount spent on batteries for solar powered racers).
I don't know where you got some of your skidpad ratings from, but some of them look somewhat "off". For example, Edmunds lists an '00 Miata at 0.89g.
Most of those cars you listed don't have skidpads that are spectacular compared to the Tzero. Notable exceptions include the Dialbo, Cobra, Viper, Porche, and the Z06. IMO, anything in the neighborhood of 0.90 is doing pretty good.
And you're right -- it is hard to compare skidpad ratings. Different tires can make a dramatic difference, for instance. Lowered suspention, different shocks/springs, too make a diff. But I'm sure you'd argue that for $70k that you shouldn't need to do any of that.
Yeah, it's an expensive car. I'll never own one. I'll never buy a porche either. Hell, I can't figure out why people spend 50k on an SUV that they use to drive back and forth to work.
But seriously, you don't spend that kind of money on any car for "practicality", value, or performance in it's class -- Ferrari would be out of business if that were true; most of their cars can be outperformed/matched by less expensive vehicles. You do it to stroke your ego.
The other thing that doesn't seem to be taken into account is how much more expensive it is to make an EV compared to a similarly spec'd gas powered auto. You think NiMH batteries are expensive at $20 for 4? Try buying 1200lbs of 'em (I'll admit that I can't tell how much the batteries alone would cost, but they're not cheap
The same person who's got enough money to have a porche for every day of the week. Let's face it, a car like this isn't meant to be something you drive around town day in and day out.
Bikes can be fast. Bikes are usually a lot cheaper than cars. Hell, if you get something like a Ninja you can roast most anything on the road. But you have to like bikes. And you have to be willing to tolerate the extra hazard of driving one -- the extra hazard being severe injury/death in a highway accident. You also have to be willing to tolerate the loss of creature comforts a car provides.
A skidpad test isn't a measure of how quickly it breaks -- they will provide a braking distance from 60-0 (or 70-0) if they want to demonstrate that. The skidpad is a measure of how hard the car can throw you against the door in a turn.
For example, the car grips the road enough to produce pull 0.88g's in a turn.
It's very VERY rare to that number at/above 1g.
The car itself weighs 2400lbs ... which while light, isn't a mind bogglingly low weight. The Honda S2000 weighs 2600lbs for example.
Having an engine that can't be shifted isn't exactly what I'd call an advantage, unless you think that your car would work better in 4th gear all the time.
The reason it IS so fast is the powerband of the electric motor. Unlike petrol based engines that have a nice rounded powerband, electric motors reach their peak torque quickly. Not only that, but they hold that torque across the powerband. The other reason is that the drivetrain is more efficient than what'd you find on a typical petrol powered car.
Compared to an equal sized car with similar "paper" numbers, this car IS amazingly fast. The closest thing you can probably come to it on paper is the S2000, which makes 200hp and only weighs 200lbs more. It reaches 60 nearly 2 seconds faster.
The fact that the car can only be driven 100 miles at 60mph is rather prominately stated on their website. It's not like they try and hide that fact from you.
Range: No EV is going to deliver great range. They don't need to either, because you can't recharge them in a reasonable amount of time (5 minutes). What does this mean? No cross country trips. So you're "stuck" driving it around town. How many people in this country actually drive more than 100 miles in a day, around town. You'll find that people who do WON'T be driving this car (real-estate agents, for example). As a person who drives a LOT every day, a 100 mile range isn't unreasonable.
People also need to stop thinking about electric cars compared to normal gas cars. Just because you can go 2 weeks without stopping by a gas station doesn't mean you need an EV to do the same.
0.88g on the skidpad is also rather respectable. It isn't very good compared to the F550, but it's right there with most other cars in the "sport" class.
The reason why this car is a big deal is that it helps eliminate the stereotype that electric cars are slugs. If you want an EV that can give a Diablo a run for it's money you can have one.
Noth'in like kicking someone in the groin while they're on the ground, is it? >:|
What you say?
Actually, in the midwest it's a decent salary. In the midwest you can get a decent sized apartment for $500/mo. On the coast, you're looking at $900/mo for a small apartment.
It's not spectacular pay, but not bad. It'd be crap on the coasts.
Polk makes some pretty decent stuff. The best thing they make IMO is their powered subs. They're one of the only companies filling in the gap between the $1000 wonderboxes (the ones you'd never think were a sub because it sounds like the audio was coming from your mains) and the $200 crapboxes you'll find at best buy (those powered subs with 12" subs only capable of producing 2 tones rather loudly).
The higher end companies have servo controled ports in the back to reduce the "fweeting" noise you'd get coming out of ports.
Polk has this large golf tee like thing that goes into the ports which does the same thing. There is almost NO port noise -- it's an EXCELLENT compromise. The $1000 subs sound is obviously more controlled, but the Polk one that I own is VERY close at half the price.
Check out http://www.audioreview.com to look at reviews for different components. It's a good place to start looking at a ton of different devices.
You can EASILY tap out $1500 putting together a good audio system.
Personally, I'd spend my money on good quality speakers and an amp that puts out clean power (not necessarily the best, but won't damage the speakers with dirt output). I say this because the speakers effect the sound produced more than any other component in the system you will buy (aside from the room itself).
If you want more "oomph" than sound quality, you can spend more on a better amp and a bit less on speakers without sacraficing much.
The system I currently have consists of a pair of B&W 602 mains and a Polk PSW550 sub. Those two items alone cost $1100. I still havn't bought a center channel ($350) or surrounds ($500). And I havn't really looked into some of the DTS/AC3 decoders yet (drool) which run some serious bucks as well, nor have I seriously looked at really good amps.
I'd recommend you go to your local home theatre store. The place I got my stuff from was awesome -- they didn't push specific products and they knew their stuff. A good store will have salespeople that can take into account your budget and put together a system that will give you the best bang for your buck. I'd recommend you try that route, or at the very least visit a store with some cds/dvds in hand to get a feel for how much money you'll have to spend for a certain sound.
Actually, an old slot-a based Athlon/500 can play DVDs using windoze software utilizing between 50-80% of the CPU (it usually seems to be around 75%).
Actually, most movies available on tape cost around $20 apeice before DVD's came out. Now DVD's cost $20 a pop and VHS tapes are starting at about $12 (with the "bargin bin" tapes going for $8).
VHS got cheaper -- dvd's didn't get more expensive.
No, the only people who were able to fit inside of the building at 7 were allowed to vote. Everyone outside was told to go home.
The problem was that there were people IN LINE WAITING TO VOTE before 7pm. They were all told to go home.
I suppose it should be ok to have one booth for every district in the state and have every person in the district use that booth -- and if they can't get in there in time, tough shit. It isn't right. The districts that had the massive lines WERE NOT PROPERLY PREPARED for the number of people that showed up to vote.
The reason why this wasn't FAIR is because people who showed up before 7 in other places across the state were actually ABLE TO VOTE.
These people didn't wait until the last minute. Some were waiting in line since 5:30!!!
...
Sheesh...the polls were supposed to be open to anyone who arrived before 7. Why the hell should I interpret that as "the polls are open till 7, but get there 4 hours ahead of time just in case"
Got to the polling places at 6:00pm. I left work at 4:30. It sounds alot easier than it is.
While the person you are replying to didn't make this point, here is the one being overlooked...
The people bitching about NS6 not being standards compliant right now are the same exact people who said about a month ago "Dangit, hurry up and release the thing and fix the bugs later."
The fact that it is an L3 isn't the cool part.
As you said, the fact that it's on the chipset is cool as hell. However, there are additional advantages to putting it on the chipset over traditional L3 caches. Lower latencies and higherbandwidth are the big ones.
Performance estimates currently peg it at about a 15% improvement, with the increase in chipset cost being minimal.
You've got bandwidth going to/from the processor. You've also got the extra bandwidth going to/from main from the L3 cache memory. Then you've got the bandwidth going to/from the southbridge, agp bus which I'd be willing to bet they're have pass through the L3 cache...
It's still more bandwidth than required, but more of it can be used than you think.
I can say SSE is a hacktogether response, because one month after 3dnow came out the SSE instructions suddently because a feature on the PIII.
If it wasn't a hacktogether response there wouldn't have been an SSE2 so soon afterwards.
I actually do suspect they were working on something like it, however I think it was meant to be put into the P4 or later generation of processor.
128bit multiplies vs 64bit multiplies don't mean jack unless you want a 128bit result. Currently, the theoretical speed of both "instruction sets" is identical. 4 64bit registers vs 2 128bit registers..."When fully implemented" also supports the "shit, we gotta put this stuff in the PIII now!" response.
I don't see the developer support for it. Frankly I don't care. Anything that really matters has support for both instruction sets.
I know that. Sheesh...the subtle points of word association analogies are lost on so many people...
3dnow was basically AMD's way of getting around the slow stack-based FPU problem they were having.
Dude, the MP forum is this week. All sorts of computer related stuff going on. After it's over there won't be a ton of MP related crap on the front page. Deal with it.
Oh I guarantee you that they notice it's not being used. The question they probably ask themselves is
"can we make this any smaller or rearrange it to use space better?"
"Nope, sucks don't it."
"Yeah."
The Micron guys didn't try to do that. They thought "what else can we fit in there" *evil grin*
Erm, this isn't an AMD design.
;).
This is a chipset created by Micron. You know, the guys who are really good at making embedded SDRAM. There was a big noise about it about a year or two ago before it fell off the charts. Looks like they did something usefull with it this time
So when you get right down to it, AMD can only gain from this. They can't loose, because they're not the ones making it.