oops missed a one . htm>
Pardon the length, but it's the law (or at least the main one) debt collectors in the US are under.
Again I'm no expert or Lawyer, but this should give you a clue of where to begin when talking to a real lawyer, which I suggest.
With rare exceptions ten year old 'bills' are not collectable. They can't garnishe your wages or report it to credit services(see http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/money/fair-cred it/fair-crd.htm) or even continue contacting you if you tell them to stop. Think of it like a statute of limitations on bills.
Also most hospital emergency rooms are in hospitals that are publicly funded. As such they can only bill you a limited amount, if any, if your income is below certain levels.
You can probably tell both of these billers to go jump. If they don't tell them you will call the appropriate authorities.
Now IANAL or a financial expert, and some of the rules on 'old' debts vary from state to state . But I have listened to knowledgeable people (Clark Howard, others) on the radio give mostly the same advice to quite a few people.
However if you make a payment over eigther one you migh be screwed. I think the time limit is from "last payment" or some such, and can sometimes be reset even if expired by you actually paying them.
My advice would be to find someone who knows the actual details (cpa? lawyer?) as a professional in the field and find out before doing ANYTHING else about it.
Besides if someone with a foriegn accent called me and said he was collecting on a 10year old debt I believed I'd paid my bs detector would be pegged on SCAM (I'd ask if he was selling bridges too).
Possible starting place is http://www.clarkhoward.com/, not shure haven't been there much myself, but I do know he's had a LOT of questions about old/odd/fraudulent debts so it's likely there somewhere.
I did just check there, there is some odds and ends in there. Including his drop dead letter to 'bill collectors' apparently federal law says you can tell them to stop harrassing you: http://clarkhoward.com/topics/drop_dead_letter.htm l
Again, don't let anyone fast talk/intimidate you into sending them money. Find out if and who you owe what too and what your rights are or you could wind up with far worse than a few bucks light in your bank account.
How free IS the market? IIRC roadrunner is a cable isp, how many cable ISP's do you get to choose from where your at. I don't even have one, but in most areas it's only one, or rarely two.
That's not exactly what's usually meant by free market, it's more like a monopoly (which can arise in a free market, but that's not usually the case with cable).
I'll agree that some regulation to prevent fraud and monopoly is good, but otherwise I'm very sceptical of regulation.
Of course if IIRIncorrectly and roadrunner is dsl of some sort then things could be a bit better if they have any competition, and if they do look into it.
I sincerely hope not. A local radio personality here (former lawyer, something he liked better than divorce law) described a car accident he was in recently, no-one was hurt but both cars were totaled (though his still drove) and he called 911 and got an automated on hold, followed by 'Oh that's another jurisdiction' twice before the local municipality answered after a 5 min auto-hold. Now this was likely exagerated by his calling on a cell, but even when he reached the right 911 center he went straight into the muzak for 5 minutes before hearing a human voice.
This is in a metropolitan area. 911 is better than what came before, but it's still NOT a substitute for being willing to deal with a crisis yourself. If you wait on 911 to stop a rapist or rescue someone seriously hurt your going to be sadly dissapointed. It's better to have a means of self defence and some good first aid training (and training with your method of denfence!)
Fortunately congress put a bit into us copyright law eliminating that concern here (the copies into ram/hd needed to run a program are expressly permited). I'm sorry if you live in another country that does it differently. Of course that doesn't mean the US doesn't have some pretty bad things in our i.p. laws.
That 'copying' is necessary to the normal use of the software bought, just as the 'copy' on your retinas and in your brain of the book your reading is necessary to that action.
Also I generaly don't copy software to my hardrive from the cd it came on. It(the software) does usually manipulate and copy to hard drive some of the data on the disc when during normal use as the copyright holder(s) decided to make it do, so if anyone is making copies it's the copyright holder(s).
The argument that the data moved to the hard creates a copy that's only leagle if the copyright holder(s) grants permision which is only if you agree to some eula is ridiculous.
Part you left out is the fact that he had purchased the product THREE times and it had the SAME eula each time.
That and,iirc, the judge used a bad analogy to situations where the services and payment are in a state of flux, such as when you are having work done on your home and when the amount of work changes mid-job so does the cost. The only resemblance here is because the guy bought new versions of the database twice.
And it's ONE case against how many on the issue of First Sale? If guy had apealed higher I would not have been suprised to see it reversed.
"Just a copy of it so First Sale doctrine does not apply."
IIRC First Sale was in part due to attempts to put 'eula' like clauses on inside pages of books, which were "just a copy" of the original manuscript.
They tossed out then, and should be tossed out now. Fortunately that's what it apears the court in CA did.
Glad to here he's alright. Although someone who had said he was a neighbor (in another/. article on the tsunami) said Clarke's house was to far inland to be affected there was still a chance he had been spending the day at the beach or some such.
I'd really hate to see one of Great Authors taken by this disaster, not to diminish the loss of life that did occure.
That said low air pressure can still have some funny effects on people.
I was watching something on pbs about some high altitude observatories (narrated by Johny Carson IIRC) and when discussing those effects he related the story about how durring construction one of the workers called down for advice because he couldn't get something to fit right he actually said (and meant) 'no matter how much I cut off it it's still to small'.
The FAA rules are probably built with a wide safty margin, and apply where acclimatization doesn't have time to work.
Reducing the lawyers portion was only a small adjunct to the main thing, raising the penalties enough to both work and give those wronged a decent recompense.
Actually the main reason (which, to my fault, I forgot to put in there) was to help reduce the odds of frivolous lawsuits in the class action arena. I've seen/heard about a dozen adds from lawyers trolling to start class action suits against viox(sp?), that arthritus pain drug recently pulled voluntarily by it's maker. While I may be out some facts here, it shure looks like they are getting hammered for doing the right thing (unless they already knew it was a problem and just pulled it because they figured the 'new data' would be to public to hide).
But thanks for pointing out my omission/screwup there, I hadn't realized I'd left that out (and looked braindamaged as a result).
Not to mention most people just don't feel like going through the hassle of claiming thier $3.95/free crap product that most class action suits get them. The only imedeate winners in class action suits are the lawyers who file them. The class is usually so large compared to the award that after the lawyers 1/4-1/3 is taken there is simply not enough to give any members of the class any significant payout.
Now in theory consumers should still take a win as the offending company's loss should be enough to make future simular actions to potentially costly to risk. Unfortunately if that's not the case the companies will general treat it as 'the cost of doing bussiness'. If microsoft made >1.1Billion(actually it's a smaller number than that as they had that money for a while to use as capital) doing whatever they just got slapped with they still proffit from doing so, just not as much as they could have.
I think class actions suits should have a minimum award if successfull of at least the amount the company made(income, NOT proffit, and in actuall cash, not products) off of it's improper actions. That and reduce the lawyers portion to say 5-10% and then not only might it work as intended, but the members of the class might actually get enough $ to make the hassle worth while.
Small question. What whould the difference in atmospheric pressure do here. I'm pretty shure the much lower pressure would reduce the transmittance of the ultrasound unless you planning on transmitting it through the frame somehow, but what would that do to the rover itself?
Just didn't know if you'd acounted for that, and would like to hear about it if you did.
One of the reasons I liked the mtabbs (Mikes Totally Awsome BBS) boards was from some of the get-togethers we had.
On guy who looked like yoga guru in his fifties who could outskate (roller not inline or other) most anyone at the skate rink and rebuilt old mini's and baby mainframes as a hobby, the really cute girl that was Mikes sister (I think she was Mikes little sister, eigther that or one of the other sysops) one short, overweight, punk-rock bible thumper type (the nice type, not the shove it in your face type) who's boyfreind used the handle Lucifer. ahh the memories.
About the same distance. They are out along hwy 21 and I'm off of hwy 30(I'm mostly west of thier and a tad north). I can take a few local roads and be in festus in under 1/2 hour, mostly driving parralell to the st. louis county line, but out from it by about 15-20 miles.
It's been a few months since I last checked, but untill it's available the most common answer I get is along the lines of 'that's considered confidential and I can't discuss it'. The other common answer I get is essentialy 'I dunno, gee what's that mean' or other cluelessness.
I'm going to call again 'real soon now' though.
Yeah I miss those days, to tell the truth I didn't use fido's much. just a couple of local wwiv boards, some color64 boards, and of course the mtabbs systems (a local thing, not more than 10 of them ever running that I know of, part of a cs students bs degree work from rolla, ran on a 'trash 80' mkIII).
More of a community back then it seems. but I suppose simular communities have sprung up on the web somwhere, just don't seem as tight as when it was mostly people in the same area code.
I think you answer your own question here, think about it:
"...I really don't understand how cultures get so upset about it..." followed almost imediatly by " it is the most important human function.. our society is built on the foundations of sexual relationships."
I realize how easy it is to miss how contradictory those two segments are, so please don't think I'm beating up on you.
Sexual attitudes and mores are hammered in from day one almost and NOT having some blind spots from your cultures outlook would be abnormal. ("forgive him for he is a barbarian and thinks the customs of his tribe to be laws of nature" -poorly remember Shakespear)
The basic truth is that sex is one of our most powerfull drives and core insticts, it can even be argued that survival of the self is there to serve the drive to reproduce (the dead don't).
This is how a culture can get so wrapped up in anything related to it. When you combine the competition for it with the need to get along for group survival you create a dynamic that will tend to aproach some sort of equalibrium, but not necessarily one that is clear and logical. Add in the fact that influencing the sexuall lives of others can easily be a source of power, and that power tends to increase one's own sexuall situation and you have a recipie for a society that is sexually repressed in one way or another by virtue of the 'experts' or moral guardian or some such (ones with power of course). Just take a look at the major priest classes in any society and what most of thier 'religeous law' or equivalant controlls and regulates.
Just look at how many cultures and religeons do/did treat female sexuality, if she cheats or leaves him she's dead, other way around best she could hope for is 'divorce', if she wasn't blamed for his misbehaviour in some way. Heck even the concept of 'fidelity' as we know it has likely in part resulted from these forces (though there are sound evolutionary reasons for wanting fidelity out of your partner, but not for yourself).
Ahem, excuse me while I find my walker. FIRST BBS?!?!
These web-form posting thingies might be called bbs's by young and culturally deprived, but they are NOT bbs's.
BBS were each an independant computer system you called each seperately and quickly plugged in the modem (actually later on modems & terminal software had the ability to actually dial the numbers themselves!) and connected at 300baud, or 2400 if you were rich and lucky. This is of course assuming you didn't get a busy signal (by the early 90's some bbs's had as many 10-12 incomming lines, the luxury!)
The closest you got to email back then was some bbs programs could call each other at some specific time of night and exchange messages, if you were lucky it only took just over 24 hours to get a reply.
If these places were real bbs's you would have games online to play (no trolling don't count) some way to msg the sysop (guy who owns the comp the bbs is running on) for a chat and even a files section (sorta like ftp, but not so automatic in most cases).
Not to mention you had good odds of actually being able to meet the people you were chatting with in REAL life because most people called bbs's that were local numbers rather than long distance.
Now I'm mostly trying to be funny, but it dose kinda grate like fingernails on a chalkboard to hear web-forums called bbs's when I have such a clear,fond, memory of what a 'real' bbs is.
Nope, as I originally said my only chance (and it's just that, los may be blocked by hills) is a sat dish for way too much $$$.
I've called the local phone and cable monopolies and they eigther say no (phone company) or promis to have a supervisor call back who never will (cable company).
I guesse I wasn't clear, and didn't fully explain my thinking.
The 100kvs 100 was meant as hyperbolly, but not clearly express, sorry about that.
The problem is I DON'T live in a trully rural area, more like lower density suburbs. Instead of subdivisions being one after the other, they're often a a mile or two apart. And no, I don't get lighter traffic by much here. And I rarely have to spend more than 45 minutes to get to anything I'm interested in except of course durring rush hour in which case I spend to long to get to anywhere.
I said city limits for a reason, I'm talking about the actual city("down-town", less than 35 miles), not county, of St. louis.
If you add in the county (many say St. Louis to refer to the city and county) I'm much closer, more like 15-20 minutes (18 miles by road, less straight line).
Basically St. Louis City IS the downtown, the county is the rest of the 'city' and you most definately deal with 'city' type traffic including traffic jams (try going north along I270 past I40 around 8am, walking seems faster).
I've lived rual,(needed binoculars and a ladder to the roof to see nearest neighbors house) this isn't it. It's more like the outer half of suburbia.
When you can reach three 'cineplexes' two largish shopping malls, all three big book stores and quite a few specialty shops and all the other trappings of a modern metropolitan city in less than a half hour your hardly in a rural area.
Slashdot Mirror
oops missed a one . htm>
Pardon the length, but it's the law (or at least the main one) debt collectors in the US are under.
Again I'm no expert or Lawyer, but this should give you a clue of where to begin when talking to a real lawyer, which I suggest.
Mycroft
With rare exceptions ten year old 'bills' are not collectable. They can't garnishe your wages or report it to credit services(see http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/money/fair-cred it/fair-crd.htm) or even continue contacting you if you tell them to stop. Think of it like a statute of limitations on bills.m l
Also most hospital emergency rooms are in hospitals that are publicly funded. As such they can only bill you a limited amount, if any, if your income is below certain levels.
You can probably tell both of these billers to go jump. If they don't tell them you will call the appropriate authorities.
Now IANAL or a financial expert, and some of the rules on 'old' debts vary from state to state . But I have listened to knowledgeable people (Clark Howard, others) on the radio give mostly the same advice to quite a few people.
However if you make a payment over eigther one you migh be screwed. I think the time limit is from "last payment" or some such, and can sometimes be reset even if expired by you actually paying them.
My advice would be to find someone who knows the actual details (cpa? lawyer?) as a professional in the field and find out before doing ANYTHING else about it.
Besides if someone with a foriegn accent called me and said he was collecting on a 10year old debt I believed I'd paid my bs detector would be pegged on SCAM (I'd ask if he was selling bridges too).
Possible starting place is http://www.clarkhoward.com/, not shure haven't been there much myself, but I do know he's had a LOT of questions about old/odd/fraudulent debts so it's likely there somewhere.
I did just check there, there is some odds and ends in there. Including his drop dead letter to 'bill collectors' apparently federal law says you can tell them to stop harrassing you: http://clarkhoward.com/topics/drop_dead_letter.ht
Again, don't let anyone fast talk/intimidate you into sending them money. Find out if and who you owe what too and what your rights are or you could wind up with far worse than a few bucks light in your bank account.
Mycroft
How free IS the market? IIRC roadrunner is a cable isp, how many cable ISP's do you get to choose from where your at. I don't even have one, but in most areas it's only one, or rarely two.
That's not exactly what's usually meant by free market, it's more like a monopoly (which can arise in a free market, but that's not usually the case with cable).
I'll agree that some regulation to prevent fraud and monopoly is good, but otherwise I'm very sceptical of regulation.
Of course if IIRIncorrectly and roadrunner is dsl of some sort then things could be a bit better if they have any competition, and if they do look into it.
Mycroft
I sincerely hope not.
A local radio personality here (former lawyer, something he liked better than divorce law) described a car accident he was in recently, no-one was hurt but both cars were totaled (though his still drove) and he called 911 and got an automated on hold, followed by 'Oh that's another jurisdiction' twice before the local municipality answered after a 5 min auto-hold. Now this was likely exagerated by his calling on a cell, but even when he reached the right 911 center he went straight into the muzak for 5 minutes before hearing a human voice.
This is in a metropolitan area.
911 is better than what came before, but it's still NOT a substitute for being willing to deal with a crisis yourself. If you wait on 911 to stop a rapist or rescue someone seriously hurt your going to be sadly dissapointed. It's better to have a means of self defence and some good first aid training (and training with your method of denfence!)
Mycroft
Fortunately congress put a bit into us copyright law eliminating that concern here (the copies into ram/hd needed to run a program are expressly permited). I'm sorry if you live in another country that does it differently. Of course that doesn't mean the US doesn't have some pretty bad things in our i.p. laws.
Mycroft
That 'copying' is necessary to the normal use of the software bought, just as the 'copy' on your retinas and in your brain of the book your reading is necessary to that action.
Also I generaly don't copy software to my hardrive from the cd it came on. It(the software) does usually manipulate and copy to hard drive some of the data on the disc when during normal use as the copyright holder(s) decided to make it do, so if anyone is making copies it's the copyright holder(s).
The argument that the data moved to the hard creates a copy that's only leagle if the copyright holder(s) grants permision which is only if you agree to some eula is ridiculous.
Mycroft
mods: read the link before calling it informative please. It's at best funny. No court case rulling has hinged on made up slashdot comments.
Mycroft
Part you left out is the fact that he had purchased the product THREE times and it had the SAME eula each time. ,iirc, the judge used a bad analogy to situations where the services and payment are in a state of flux, such as when you are having work done on your home and when the amount of work changes mid-job so does the cost. The only resemblance here is because the guy bought new versions of the database twice.
That and
And it's ONE case against how many on the issue of First Sale? If guy had apealed higher I would not have been suprised to see it reversed.
Mycroft
"Just a copy of it so First Sale doctrine does not apply."
IIRC First Sale was in part due to attempts to put 'eula' like clauses on inside pages of books, which were "just a copy" of the original manuscript.
They tossed out then, and should be tossed out now. Fortunately that's what it apears the court in CA did.
Mycroft
Learn maners and proper capitalization first. In the mean time I'll stick to my version of informal american. :)
Mycroft
Glad to here he's alright. Although someone who had said he was a neighbor (in another /. article on the tsunami) said Clarke's house was to far inland to be affected there was still a chance he had been spending the day at the beach or some such.
I'd really hate to see one of Great Authors taken by this disaster, not to diminish the loss of life that did occure.
Mycroft
That said low air pressure can still have some funny effects on people.
I was watching something on pbs about some high altitude observatories (narrated by Johny Carson IIRC) and when discussing those effects he related the story about how durring construction one of the workers called down for advice because he couldn't get something to fit right he actually said (and meant) 'no matter how much I cut off it it's still to small'.
The FAA rules are probably built with a wide safty margin, and apply where acclimatization doesn't have time to work.
Mycroft
Reducing the lawyers portion was only a small adjunct to the main thing, raising the penalties enough to both work and give those wronged a decent recompense.
Actually the main reason (which, to my fault, I forgot to put in there) was to help reduce the odds of frivolous lawsuits in the class action arena. I've seen/heard about a dozen adds from lawyers trolling to start class action suits against viox(sp?), that arthritus pain drug recently pulled voluntarily by it's maker. While I may be out some facts here, it shure looks like they are getting hammered for doing the right thing (unless they already knew it was a problem and just pulled it because they figured the 'new data' would be to public to hide).
But thanks for pointing out my omission/screwup there, I hadn't realized I'd left that out (and looked braindamaged as a result).
Mycroft
Not to mention most people just don't feel like going through the hassle of claiming thier $3.95/free crap product that most class action suits get them. The only imedeate winners in class action suits are the lawyers who file them. The class is usually so large compared to the award that after the lawyers 1/4-1/3 is taken there is simply not enough to give any members of the class any significant payout.
Now in theory consumers should still take a win as the offending company's loss should be enough to make future simular actions to potentially costly to risk. Unfortunately if that's not the case the companies will general treat it as 'the cost of doing bussiness'. If microsoft made >1.1Billion(actually it's a smaller number than that as they had that money for a while to use as capital) doing whatever they just got slapped with they still proffit from doing so, just not as much as they could have.
I think class actions suits should have a minimum award if successfull of at least the amount the company made(income, NOT proffit, and in actuall cash, not products) off of it's improper actions. That and reduce the lawyers portion to say 5-10% and then not only might it work as intended, but the members of the class might actually get enough $ to make the hassle worth while.
Mycroft
hmm, didn't read carefully enough. You're likely right. bad habbit of reading /. just before bed, when I'm to tired to think/read clearly. thx
Mycroft
Small question. What whould the difference in atmospheric pressure do here. I'm pretty shure the much lower pressure would reduce the transmittance of the ultrasound unless you planning on transmitting it through the frame somehow, but what would that do to the rover itself?
Just didn't know if you'd acounted for that, and would like to hear about it if you did.
Mycroft
One of the reasons I liked the mtabbs (Mikes Totally Awsome BBS) boards was from some of the get-togethers we had.
On guy who looked like yoga guru in his fifties who could outskate (roller not inline or other) most anyone at the skate rink and rebuilt old mini's and baby mainframes as a hobby, the really cute girl that was Mikes sister (I think she was Mikes little sister, eigther that or one of the other sysops) one short, overweight, punk-rock bible thumper type (the nice type, not the shove it in your face type) who's boyfreind used the handle Lucifer. ahh the memories.
Mycroft
About the same distance. They are out along hwy 21 and I'm off of hwy 30(I'm mostly west of thier and a tad north). I can take a few local roads and be in festus in under 1/2 hour, mostly driving parralell to the st. louis county line, but out from it by about 15-20 miles.
Mycroft
It's been a few months since I last checked, but untill it's available the most common answer I get is along the lines of 'that's considered confidential and I can't discuss it'. The other common answer I get is essentialy 'I dunno, gee what's that mean' or other cluelessness.
I'm going to call again 'real soon now' though.
Mycroft
Yeah I miss those days, to tell the truth I didn't use fido's much. just a couple of local wwiv boards, some color64 boards, and of course the mtabbs systems (a local thing, not more than 10 of them ever running that I know of, part of a cs students bs degree work from rolla, ran on a 'trash 80' mkIII).
More of a community back then it seems. but I suppose simular communities have sprung up on the web somwhere, just don't seem as tight as when it was mostly people in the same area code.
Mcyroft
I think you answer your own question here, think about it:
"...I really don't understand how cultures get so upset about it..."
followed almost imediatly by " it is the most important human function.. our society is built on the foundations of sexual relationships."
I realize how easy it is to miss how contradictory those two segments are, so please don't think I'm beating up on you.
Sexual attitudes and mores are hammered in from day one almost and NOT having some blind spots from your cultures outlook would be abnormal.
("forgive him for he is a barbarian and thinks the customs of his tribe to be laws of nature" -poorly remember Shakespear)
The basic truth is that sex is one of our most powerfull drives and core insticts, it can even be argued that survival of the self is there to serve the drive to reproduce (the dead don't).
This is how a culture can get so wrapped up in anything related to it. When you combine the competition for it with the need to get along for group survival you create a dynamic that will tend to aproach some sort of equalibrium, but not necessarily one that is clear and logical. Add in the fact that influencing the sexuall lives of others can easily be a source of power, and that power tends to increase one's own sexuall situation and you have a recipie for a society that is sexually repressed in one way or another by virtue of the 'experts' or moral guardian or some such (ones with power of course). Just take a look at the major priest classes in any society and what most of thier 'religeous law' or equivalant controlls and regulates.
Just look at how many cultures and religeons do/did treat female sexuality, if she cheats or leaves him she's dead, other way around best she could hope for is 'divorce', if she wasn't blamed for his misbehaviour in some way. Heck even the concept of 'fidelity' as we know it has likely in part resulted from these forces (though there are sound evolutionary reasons for wanting fidelity out of your partner, but not for yourself).
Mycroft
Ahem, excuse me while I find my walker. FIRST BBS?!?!
These web-form posting thingies might be called bbs's by young and culturally deprived, but they are NOT bbs's.
BBS were each an independant computer system you called each seperately and quickly plugged in the modem (actually later on modems & terminal software had the ability to actually dial the numbers themselves!) and connected at 300baud, or 2400 if you were rich and lucky. This is of course assuming you didn't get a busy signal (by the early 90's some bbs's had as many 10-12 incomming lines, the luxury!)
The closest you got to email back then was some bbs programs could call each other at some specific time of night and exchange messages, if you were lucky it only took just over 24 hours to get a reply.
If these places were real bbs's you would have games online to play (no trolling don't count) some way to msg the sysop (guy who owns the comp the bbs is running on) for a chat and even a files section (sorta like ftp, but not so automatic in most cases).
Not to mention you had good odds of actually being able to meet the people you were chatting with in REAL life because most people called bbs's that were local numbers rather than long distance.
Now I'm mostly trying to be funny, but it dose kinda grate like fingernails on a chalkboard to hear web-forums called bbs's when I have such a clear,fond, memory of what a 'real' bbs is.
Mycroft
Nope, as I originally said my only chance (and it's just that, los may be blocked by hills) is a sat dish for way too much $$$.
I've called the local phone and cable monopolies and they eigther say no (phone company) or promis to have a supervisor call back who never will (cable company).
Mycroft
I guesse I wasn't clear, and didn't fully explain my thinking.
The 100kvs 100 was meant as hyperbolly, but not clearly express, sorry about that.
The problem is I DON'T live in a trully rural area, more like lower density suburbs. Instead of subdivisions being one after the other, they're often a a mile or two apart. And no, I don't get lighter traffic by much here. And I rarely have to spend more than 45 minutes to get to anything I'm interested in except of course durring rush hour in which case I spend to long to get to anywhere.
Mycroft
I said city limits for a reason, I'm talking about the actual city("down-town", less than 35 miles), not county, of St. louis.
If you add in the county (many say St. Louis to refer to the city and county) I'm much closer, more like 15-20 minutes (18 miles by road, less straight line).
Basically St. Louis City IS the downtown, the county is the rest of the 'city' and you most definately deal with 'city' type traffic including traffic jams (try going north along I270 past I40 around 8am, walking seems faster).
I've lived rual,(needed binoculars and a ladder to the roof to see nearest neighbors house) this isn't it. It's more like the outer half of suburbia.
When you can reach three 'cineplexes' two largish shopping malls, all three big book stores and quite a few specialty shops and all the other trappings of a modern metropolitan city in less than a half hour your hardly in a rural area.
Mycroft