It's like seeing your favorite band get no recognition while some guy named "Ludacris" goes platinum several times over.
At the end of the day its about marketing and to a lesser degree, features. Having a wife I can tell you with 100% confidence that the Apple marketing team gets gadget sex appeal. They make a well branded easy to use, nearly cuddly product and they even throw in some good engineering and software design to boot. When my wife see's this its going to go directly to her credit card and see doesn't care if I can find XYH products with a MILLION more features, she just wants the one that looks THAT GOOD and is nice and easy to use.
I stand by my opinion. Tux looks old and outdated, something Linux is not. There is nothing 'streamlined' about his look, all soft curves with bumpy contours, like a sack of potatoes. But I'm *not* trying to start a flame about the Linux mascot, just expressing an opinion.
I hear your rebranding point as well, but I'd consider it early enough in the game that it wouldn't be a big problem with Linux as a name on the otherhand, changing that would be like starting over.
YA, I kind of like the Plan 9 one too (your right about the astronaut). I'd just like to see something fresh, Tux feels like a legasy and I'd bet if we opened it up now we could probably get something with a little fresher character.
First though, before anyone starts jumping up and down about Linux on the desktop let me quote the last paragraph:
Fink said that he expects businesses to use Linux where employees only need a few applications, such as in a call center or support center where workers need to access only a database and e-mail.
That is not a recipe for pending [consumber] desktop dominance.
Now to go completely OT when are we going to LOSE TUX. He's cute, in sort of a geekily charming way. But he's the internation sysmbol for Linux!!?? We need something sexier to place on something as important (marketing wise) as a box (in the mall!!). At least use Everaldo's penguin!
Midi. On the web. I understand your enthusiasm more then I sympathize with your analogy. Have you been to a Geocities site with midi on it recently?;-)
Right, but why is Microsoft being so quiet? I mean I understand that they've got to pretend that Linux isn't even a contender (yet) but I'm sure they've got some lacky's at a couple major 'computing magazines' that could be speading a little FUD.
I'd bet you good money (eh..if I had any) that if this catches on (and it will, so long as it works as advertised) websites (or the W3C) will start to use conventions specifically for this. Browser controls will be simple (reload/backwards/forwards/go:???) I'm sure something like 'go:slashdot.org, link:science' will be possible, it will be interesting to see how much and what kind of an effect this will have on things!
You know the same people who use the console competently probably use the GUI with an equal measure of competence. The console was one of the earliest, but not necessarily the best, and more to the point, not nearly idiot proof.;-)
Nice, same old shit PFB's have been spouting since the begining. Your type used to be in the majority. We call that the bad old days. But your take-it or shove-it attitude just doesn't fly. I apologise for you because like every Windows moron and every Mac snob your espousing nothing be zeal. As if everyone who doesn't know/think/do exactly what you think they should is somehow less then you. But if you truely weren't trying to put your foot in your own ass you be using OpenBSD or applying the NSA patches, I mean you'd look like a total idiot if *your* OS ever got comprimised, right?
Windows has it faults, sure, but so does Linux and if you can't see that then your simply a bigger asshole then I thought. I use it every day *and* I love it, but if Linux is going to continue to grow beyond a hobbiests OS we are going to have to see its imperfections, not yell at other people for not using it.
I'd like to apologise for the poster your responding to and I'd like to point that the 99.9% of OTHER Linux users are not starry eyed PFB's trying to cram their particular religion down everyone's throats.
We know Linux needs work before its ready for prime time, just like we know that there are certain trade-offs between convenance and security.
I do believe that Windows users have gotten a bit of a drop here by Microsoft, but that would be more of a monopoly issue and bad planning (if we had the lead all this time WE would certainly have made some mistakes too).
So keep using your Windows PC in peace. Its got a lot of useful functionality and as a Gnome developer once suggested, the most secure operating system is the one your comfortable with and can keep updated. As Linux gains marketshare you can bet some vunerabilities will be found, some we'll expect and some we wont. Maybe you'll find it more appealing after its had more time to mature. Don't let zealots color your opinions too much, they speak for themselves.
As I said, I do. Think of it this way, everything these days is digital, at least with music and movies. So what I get for 10 bucks at a record store is digital music (which I'll move around to my computer and mp3 player when I get home) and archival media (hey, its like they backed it up for me!) at a much higher bitrate then usual. AND they included artwork!
So this whole argument that each 10 dollar album (be it itune or your local record store) is just reflecting cost is bullshit. You give me lossy, compressed tracks with *maybe* a (comparatively low-res) JPEG to stand in for physical cover art and somehow expect me to believe its worth the same amount as a packaged and presses compact disk? Give me a break.
I agree with the above poster, but why this needs to catch on:
1) We currently have a 0 feedback model for most distro (said distros forum and Slashdot aside).
2) It WILL tell the developers of a distro a bit about how their distro is being used (lots of data, the deeper they dig the more they learn).
3) Other distros need to see this as a *requirement*. Popularity-popusmearity, this is customer feed-back! Guess how many times I've been asked how I use my favorite flavor of Linux over the past 5 years?
I think Debian has hit a little bit of gold here and I hope to see it expand to other distros. These guys work hard to write 100's of useful apps and compile them into a useful operating environment, more information can only help that process so I'm into it.
Yes. You see commercial organizations do it all the time, some of it bugs us (spyware/adware/webbugs/cross-site cookies), but a lot of it doesn't (Neilson ratings/consumer surveys/warrenty questionaires). I think we all know that to design a good product you need to listen to your consumer base.
In fact this has been one of the big pieces that has been missing with Linux distro's. We throw as many applications into them as we can, having no accurate idea whats being used and whats just in the way. This is sort of a break-through when you think about it and I applaud the Debian's refeshingly long-sightedness.
Add to that that this is a open source project (under the GPL and written in perl) and you end up with a true rarity, an honest (and auditable) marketing tool. Don't like it? Don't install it.
This looks to me like a usefull tool in the fight for increased usability. OS hackers may not be able to do the tele polls and the in-mall customer questionaires, but they sure as hell can figure out how to get that information. And we sort of owe it to then to tell them a little something about the products they spend so much time (and care) working on for us.
A) Most of the independent artists that will be available through sites like this are NOT RIAA artists.
B) While $.99 may be necessary to cover the cost of Marketing Blitzes, Big Budget Studio time, Advertising, Printing and Distributing an album to your local record store, I think its feasible that independent artist spend considerably less on promotion and 'the machine'. If everyone adopts prices that don't reflect the actual costs involved in bringing the music to market we just end up with a new version of the old system. A lot of artist still are focused on GETTING THEIR MUSIC HEARD so this whole money argument is marketing talk as far as I'm concerned.
Industry music may be a different story, but I love and am VERY familiar with independent music and artists. I've got no trouble with sending 10 bucks off to support an artist I like, but I usually get a fancy printed album and what-not that added a little more value. If a download (of a 192 bit track?) is going to cost some money, fine, just don't charge me as much as you would for a CD, after all, its not the same thing.
Mandrake is free as in beer? In fact its the only polished commercial distro that is and I give them huge props for doing that (and dollars because I believe good free software is worth money). I'm not knocking any of the distro's your mentioning, but you need to get your facts striaght before bad mouthing a (rare) honest distro.
I am writing you to share my disappointment over the announcement of your planned use of the DRM enable Phoenix bios. I believe that any product that contains 'features' able to limit users in their freedom to use their computer (and included data) is an anti-consumer feature. I can not in good conscience support a company who willingly chooses to support such a technology. As a the chief technology representative for my company and a trusted knowledge base for many family and friends I am afraid I will have to recommend against any purchases of Samsung hardware or equipment.
I understand that these time are hard between the push from big businesses and media conglomerates and the promise of additional features, DRM can sound like a very appealing solution. Unfortunately at this time I do not believe DRM to be beneficial to the consumer and must make my recommendations based on the very real possibility that this technology will be used to the disadvantage of the consumer.
Thank you,
My Name (ha ha I have more then just a NICK!)
I think what gets overlooked sometimes is that while GPL'd software may be free of cost that doesn't make it free of value. And this is where it gets tricky: instead of being a financial asset it is an idealogical and philosophical asset. But lets just leave that part out of it, it IS an asset, both to the individual programmer and the community they have given it to.
Then it is our responsibility to protect our intellectual assets, or do we forfeit our rights to them?
Commodity router builders have at there disposal A LOT of options, they could pay someone to code there own software (there is a cost in doing business isn't there?), they could license a proprietary os, they could even use a bsd based solution. But if the best they can do is steal the existing assets of the free software community I don't have much sympathy for them. And why should you?
The difference you've overlooked is that now the market in mature. We have choices and the only real difference is some are more ubiquitous easy to use then others. Your reflecting on a time when computer users were the acception and a good working knowlege was required (or a willingness anyway). Times have changed.
I've been using Linux as my sole home desktop environment for years now. Since the very begining we have been hearing (and chanting) claims about how Linux needs game to become mainstream. Whats interesting is Linux now *has* games. I think a games focused distro would be smart, but certainly won't fix (or hide) the number of other areas in which Linux distro still need to mature.
Linux isn't experiencing a high rate of adoption because its still too hard to use. We know this. No amount of games is going to fix that and [name your favorite distro here] are making slow but relentlessly steady headway (see Microsoft cringe).
My point is there is no single solution at this point. Linux needs Users Friendly standards from the layout to the message dialogs, application naming conventions, install/uninstall and system configuration. Thats a lot detail and involves a lot of seperate pieces. Standardising is also FUCKING BORING WORK. So don't expect it to happen as quickly as some other things.
Thanks for the post. I see from the moderation more people appreciated your feedback then chose to directly respond.
As for the responses: people (Linux users) sometimes confuse being able to do something with being able to do something with some semblance of reasonability. Maybe we figure because we've been configuring you XFree setup by hand since 1998 that that sort of thing is even remotely acceptable. The truth is you *can* do just about everything on Linux (and more) that you can do on Windows, but it will involve a lot more reading and time and of course reading can be a pain in the ass and time is important to a lot of people.
Good job working with Linux (and reporting back) and here's hoping the next time you try it you find some of your issues have been taken care of. A sort of funny side note, I went and saw John 'Maddog' Hall speak a couple of years ago at our local LUG. He was using Suse on his laptop and seemed pleased at how simple to use it was. I guess even geeks get tired of fiddling with drivers and configuration files.
There's no doubt that we still have a long way to go (a lot of it is going to be pretty unglamourous work too). But if you've seen how far its come..wow. Thing keep getting better.
But you know what its going to end up like: msn's next generation IM/chat with added hooks for seamlessly calling up games. You've got to figure that most gamers run some sort of im software in the background already so I think its safe to say that would be the most likely starting point (although I like your sims idea..it is sort of like a big chat room with diversions).
I'd give Will Smith more credit for Six Degress of Seperation. The other two movies you site aren't favorites or masterpieces in my book (that I'd leave to Blade Runner, Brazil, Gattacca, Clockwork Orange, 2001).
Slashdot Mirror
I stand by my opinion. Tux looks old and outdated, something Linux is not. There is nothing 'streamlined' about his look, all soft curves with bumpy contours, like a sack of potatoes. But I'm *not* trying to start a flame about the Linux mascot, just expressing an opinion.
I hear your rebranding point as well, but I'd consider it early enough in the game that it wouldn't be a big problem with Linux as a name on the otherhand, changing that would be like starting over.
YA, I kind of like the Plan 9 one too (your right about the astronaut). I'd just like to see something fresh, Tux feels like a legasy and I'd bet if we opened it up now we could probably get something with a little fresher character.
Now to go completely OT when are we going to LOSE TUX. He's cute, in sort of a geekily charming way. But he's the internation sysmbol for Linux!!?? We need something sexier to place on something as important (marketing wise) as a box (in the mall!!). At least use Everaldo's penguin!
Midi. On the web. I understand your enthusiasm more then I sympathize with your analogy. Have you been to a Geocities site with midi on it recently? ;-)
Somethings are just better left alone.
ROFL
Right, but why is Microsoft being so quiet? I mean I understand that they've got to pretend that Linux isn't even a contender (yet) but I'm sure they've got some lacky's at a couple major 'computing magazines' that could be speading a little FUD.
I can tell my browser that I really think! ;-)
I'd bet you good money (eh..if I had any) that if this catches on (and it will, so long as it works as advertised) websites (or the W3C) will start to use conventions specifically for this. Browser controls will be simple (reload/backwards/forwards/go:???) I'm sure something like 'go:slashdot.org, link:science' will be possible, it will be interesting to see how much and what kind of an effect this will have on things!
You know the same people who use the console competently probably use the GUI with an equal measure of competence. The console was one of the earliest, but not necessarily the best, and more to the point, not nearly idiot proof. ;-)
Nice, same old shit PFB's have been spouting since the begining. Your type used to be in the majority. We call that the bad old days. But your take-it or shove-it attitude just doesn't fly. I apologise for you because like every Windows moron and every Mac snob your espousing nothing be zeal. As if everyone who doesn't know/think/do exactly what you think they should is somehow less then you. But if you truely weren't trying to put your foot in your own ass you be using OpenBSD or applying the NSA patches, I mean you'd look like a total idiot if *your* OS ever got comprimised, right?
Windows has it faults, sure, but so does Linux and if you can't see that then your simply a bigger asshole then I thought. I use it every day *and* I love it, but if Linux is going to continue to grow beyond a hobbiests OS we are going to have to see its imperfections, not yell at other people for not using it.
I'd like to apologise for the poster your responding to and I'd like to point that the 99.9% of OTHER Linux users are not starry eyed PFB's trying to cram their particular religion down everyone's throats.
We know Linux needs work before its ready for prime time, just like we know that there are certain trade-offs between convenance and security.
I do believe that Windows users have gotten a bit of a drop here by Microsoft, but that would be more of a monopoly issue and bad planning (if we had the lead all this time WE would certainly have made some mistakes too).
So keep using your Windows PC in peace. Its got a lot of useful functionality and as a Gnome developer once suggested, the most secure operating system is the one your comfortable with and can keep updated. As Linux gains marketshare you can bet some vunerabilities will be found, some we'll expect and some we wont. Maybe you'll find it more appealing after its had more time to mature. Don't let zealots color your opinions too much, they speak for themselves.
As I said, I do. Think of it this way, everything these days is digital, at least with music and movies. So what I get for 10 bucks at a record store is digital music (which I'll move around to my computer and mp3 player when I get home) and archival media (hey, its like they backed it up for me!) at a much higher bitrate then usual. AND they included artwork!
So this whole argument that each 10 dollar album (be it itune or your local record store) is just reflecting cost is bullshit. You give me lossy, compressed tracks with *maybe* a (comparatively low-res) JPEG to stand in for physical cover art and somehow expect me to believe its worth the same amount as a packaged and presses compact disk? Give me a break.
I agree with the above poster, but why this needs to catch on:
1) We currently have a 0 feedback model for most distro (said distros forum and Slashdot aside).
2) It WILL tell the developers of a distro a bit about how their distro is being used (lots of data, the deeper they dig the more they learn).
3) Other distros need to see this as a *requirement*. Popularity-popusmearity, this is customer feed-back! Guess how many times I've been asked how I use my favorite flavor of Linux over the past 5 years?
I think Debian has hit a little bit of gold here and I hope to see it expand to other distros. These guys work hard to write 100's of useful apps and compile them into a useful operating environment, more information can only help that process so I'm into it.
Yes. You see commercial organizations do it all the time, some of it bugs us (spyware/adware/webbugs/cross-site cookies), but a lot of it doesn't (Neilson ratings/consumer surveys/warrenty questionaires). I think we all know that to design a good product you need to listen to your consumer base.
In fact this has been one of the big pieces that has been missing with Linux distro's. We throw as many applications into them as we can, having no accurate idea whats being used and whats just in the way. This is sort of a break-through when you think about it and I applaud the Debian's refeshingly long-sightedness.
Add to that that this is a open source project (under the GPL and written in perl) and you end up with a true rarity, an honest (and auditable) marketing tool. Don't like it? Don't install it.
This looks to me like a usefull tool in the fight for increased usability. OS hackers may not be able to do the tele polls and the in-mall customer questionaires, but they sure as hell can figure out how to get that information. And we sort of owe it to then to tell them a little something about the products they spend so much time (and care) working on for us.
Just my $.02.
A) Most of the independent artists that will be available through sites like this are NOT RIAA artists.
B) While $.99 may be necessary to cover the cost of Marketing Blitzes, Big Budget Studio time, Advertising, Printing and Distributing an album to your local record store, I think its feasible that independent artist spend considerably less on promotion and 'the machine'. If everyone adopts prices that don't reflect the actual costs involved in bringing the music to market we just end up with a new version of the old system. A lot of artist still are focused on GETTING THEIR MUSIC HEARD so this whole money argument is marketing talk as far as I'm concerned.
Industry music may be a different story, but I love and am VERY familiar with independent music and artists. I've got no trouble with sending 10 bucks off to support an artist I like, but I usually get a fancy printed album and what-not that added a little more value. If a download (of a 192 bit track?) is going to cost some money, fine, just don't charge me as much as you would for a CD, after all, its not the same thing.
Mandrake is free as in beer? In fact its the only polished commercial distro that is and I give them huge props for doing that (and dollars because I believe good free software is worth money). I'm not knocking any of the distro's your mentioning, but you need to get your facts striaght before bad mouthing a (rare) honest distro.
Just remember, take your time aiming and get up extra close for those head-shots. And don't for get to jump around a lot.
;-)
I think what gets overlooked sometimes is that while GPL'd software may be free of cost that doesn't make it free of value. And this is where it gets tricky: instead of being a financial asset it is an idealogical and philosophical asset. But lets just leave that part out of it, it IS an asset, both to the individual programmer and the community they have given it to.
Then it is our responsibility to protect our intellectual assets, or do we forfeit our rights to them?
Commodity router builders have at there disposal A LOT of options, they could pay someone to code there own software (there is a cost in doing business isn't there?), they could license a proprietary os, they could even use a bsd based solution. But if the best they can do is steal the existing assets of the free software community I don't have much sympathy for them. And why should you?
The difference you've overlooked is that now the market in mature. We have choices and the only real difference is some are more ubiquitous easy to use then others. Your reflecting on a time when computer users were the acception and a good working knowlege was required (or a willingness anyway). Times have changed.
I've been using Linux as my sole home desktop environment for years now. Since the very begining we have been hearing (and chanting) claims about how Linux needs game to become mainstream. Whats interesting is Linux now *has* games. I think a games focused distro would be smart, but certainly won't fix (or hide) the number of other areas in which Linux distro still need to mature.
Linux isn't experiencing a high rate of adoption because its still too hard to use. We know this. No amount of games is going to fix that and [name your favorite distro here] are making slow but relentlessly steady headway (see Microsoft cringe).
My point is there is no single solution at this point. Linux needs Users Friendly standards from the layout to the message dialogs, application naming conventions, install/uninstall and system configuration. Thats a lot detail and involves a lot of seperate pieces. Standardising is also FUCKING BORING WORK. So don't expect it to happen as quickly as some other things.
Games are cool, but its not that simple.
Thanks for the post. I see from the moderation more people appreciated your feedback then chose to directly respond.
As for the responses: people (Linux users) sometimes confuse being able to do something with being able to do something with some semblance of reasonability. Maybe we figure because we've been configuring you XFree setup by hand since 1998 that that sort of thing is even remotely acceptable. The truth is you *can* do just about everything on Linux (and more) that you can do on Windows, but it will involve a lot more reading and time and of course reading can be a pain in the ass and time is important to a lot of people.
Good job working with Linux (and reporting back) and here's hoping the next time you try it you find some of your issues have been taken care of. A sort of funny side note, I went and saw John 'Maddog' Hall speak a couple of years ago at our local LUG. He was using Suse on his laptop and seemed pleased at how simple to use it was. I guess even geeks get tired of fiddling with drivers and configuration files.
There's no doubt that we still have a long way to go (a lot of it is going to be pretty unglamourous work too). But if you've seen how far its come..wow. Thing keep getting better.
But you know what its going to end up like: msn's next generation IM/chat with added hooks for seamlessly calling up games. You've got to figure that most gamers run some sort of im software in the background already so I think its safe to say that would be the most likely starting point (although I like your sims idea..it is sort of like a big chat room with diversions).
I'd give Will Smith more credit for Six Degress of Seperation. The other two movies you site aren't favorites or masterpieces in my book (that I'd leave to Blade Runner, Brazil, Gattacca, Clockwork Orange, 2001).