HP to Globally Launch Linux-Based PCs

Rade T. writes "Reuters UK reports that HP, the No. 1 personal computer and computer printer maker, said on Wednesday that its putting its weight behind personal computers that run the Linux operating system. I guess this is the first serious step towards solving the problems that Linux faces on the Desktop/Laptop."

Comments

$699 each

[QuantumRiff]

Pay your SCO Fee, they throw the computer in for free!!!

Re:$699 each

[Canadian1729]

That mightnot be a bad marketing strategy for sco :)

Re:$699 each

[Cheerio Boy]

I would think that anything with both the words SCO and throw would be dangerous to either Daryl or the end user.

Re:$699 each

[Bull999999]

More like SCO throwing in a Linux license for free without the knowledge of HP and do a press release on the increasing number of users getting the license.

Re:$699 each

[QuasiCoLtd]

Of course it would work. How do you think Microsoft became so rich? Not because people wanted to shell out cash for Windows, but because they were tricked. Most people don't even know they're paying money for Windows, they think it's given to them free just for buying a computer. Try telling someone they're actually paying around $99-$150 for their OS and they're eyes go all googly. Pretty fun to tell them actually....

Re:$699 each

[Kaboom13]

OEMs do not pay anything near that much. The numbers I've heard are $15-$20. If it actually was $100 those bargain basement pc's you see wouldn't be possible.The price for OEM copies of Windows is one of the strongest bargaining points in Microsoft's aresenal. Anyone who they refuse to sell OEM licenses to is pretty much out of the budget market.

Re:$699 each

[moro_666]

dunno about you dudes over there but
i live in the free europe :D
so i don't have to worry about sco for a while anyway.
besides, what's the hoax all about ?
as i recall sco didn't win in court ? at least not yet?
so what's the fuzz ?

i place my bets on linux, because atm. there is no new and shiny windows to see anywhere (xp is already old and buggy.) and even if sco wins anything in court, the code that it claims to have some rights on , can be rewritten in another way in a day or two, so they will loose any idea that they are holding on to with this hoaxing..

i wish my grandpa had taken a copyright on this :
for(int i=0;i10;i++) {
###some looping here.
}

would i be ritch then and have right to everyone from motorola up to microsoft ?

have a nice day and don't worry so much :D

Big Win for SuSE

[kalidasa]

Very nice. I wonder how the folks at MS felt reading a quote saying that this was "nothing to do with Microsoft" attributed to a man with the most unfortunate name of Fink?

Re:Big Win for SuSE

[Anonymous Coward]

Given the niche they're shooting for, "Fink said that he expects businesses to use Linux where employees only need a few applications, such as in a call center or support center where workers need to access only a database and e-mail."

I don't think Microsoft is going to be doing a lot of crying in their beer. They might be looking over their shoulder, and they might like it to be otherwise, but the end result will be nominal at least in the near term.

Re:Big Win for SuSE

[kalidasa]

Given how saturated Windows' market share is, any big company selling another OS on an x86 desktop is going to lower market share, at least fractionally, and be a minor loss, in the short term. Remember, MS is out there chasing the embedded market, too. I don't think MS is crying in their beer, yet, but a loss is a loss.

Re:Big Win for SuSE

[AKAImBatman]

If you think that's nice, you should try the Java Desktop System. I just tried their most recent Knoppix-like demo, and it is one smooooth system. My only complaint is that they don't set the GTK+ Look and Feel as the default Java Swing Look and Feel.

Re:Big Win for SuSE

[ackthpt]

Very nice. I wonder how the folks at MS felt reading a quote saying that this was "nothing to do with Microsoft" attributed to a man with the most unfortunate name of Fink?

I think 'Fink' has become rather archaic in the use of labeling someone a turncoat. It will probably mean little outside USA/GBR.

These computers should be a big hit where budgets are tight, and proprietary operating systems and software have a tougher job of making inroads. The undercurrent of recent events is that many outside the USA see it as vital not to be chained to a US corporation, which makes arbitrary decisions about what's needed in an 'operating system' and rolls out a new model every few years maintain steady revenue, even bulldozing existing markets for products now bundled.

I suspect Microsoft is really secretly working on their own Linux distro and wonder when we'll see it. What better way to steer the ship than to be a captain.

Re:Big Win for SuSE

[Anonymous Coward]

+1, eloquent.

At least more so than I.

I don't think the story here is the blow to Microsoft, but the boost to Suse.

With real money starting to flow it's way, and recent reports about where Novell wants to go with the desktop, linux could get a lot more user compasionate in the next couple of years. Then Microsoft might be doing some real crying in its beer.

Re:Big Win for SuSE

[Anonymous Coward]

I like the Java Desktop System as well, however the applications available are a little dated. After installing JDS and all the updates, the kernel is still at 2.4.19 and Mozilla is at version 1.4. Of course you can always install other applications or updates that are made for SUSE 9.0, however Sun doesn't support your system afterwards or at least that is my understanding.

Re:Big Win for SuSE

[reanjr]

MS wouldn't even have to go as far as releasing an entire distro. All they would have to do is support .NET on other platforms and write a Window Manager, and people could run Linux without even realizing it, using Office .NET in conjunction with the "Windows" (unimaginatively named) Window Manager.

Eventually Office and IE will probably come out for Linux, but we're a ways off on that. It took a semi-partnership between MS and Apple for Office to come out on Mac, and IE is even farther behind.

Buy with a conscience

[Mr. Darl McBride]

I feel compelled to remind people that HP is currently one of the leaders in outsourcing tech jobs.

I'm not suggesting you do or don't buy a PC because of that. But I do feel that data point should be out there for US Slashdotters. Your dollar is at an alarming low compared to other currencies, your job market is a shambles, and these actions are arguably not helping things along.

Re:Buy with a conscience

[Anonymous Coward]

Not only are HP outsourcing their own services, but they're a leader in helping other companies outsource. They actively advertise outsourcing services. Anywhere where HP has a service or sales contract, their sales force are being told to look for opportunities to petition for eliminating US jobs.

Selling Linux boxes is cool. But there are many other sources of cheaper Linux systems. HP should kindly understand that logic.

Re:Buy with a conscience

[dreamchaser]

Our job market is in shambles? A 5.6% unemployment rate is NOT shambles. Also, as a hiring manager in IT I can certainly attest to the fact that there are IT jobs being filled in the States, too.

I know this is offtopic, and feel free to mod me as such. I just can't let FUD like that stand on it's own merit without some clarification.

I'm not fond of seeing jobs go overseas, but that's the price of free trade sometimes. There are also about 6 million jobs in the US for foreign companies (names like Sony come to mind, plus many more).

Re:Buy with a conscience

[Anonymous Coward]

That employment figure is suspect at best, an outright lie at worst.

It takes neither underemployed workers, nor discouraged workers into account.

Re:Buy with a conscience

[Anonymous Coward]

Our job market is in shambles? A 5.6% unemployment rate is NOT shambles.

You've read "How to Lie with Statistics," haven't you.

Your 5.6% doesn't include people whose unemployment benefits have run out. Setting that aside, look at the average household income. It's down for the first year in decades. Look at the types of jobs being created (fast food) and the types being destroyed (engineering).

Re:Buy with a conscience

[mahdi13]

Hmm, last time I called HP for a support issue with a HPUX server, I had a support person that used the words "dude" "Winblows" and "Microsux" quite often. Quite refreshing to hear personaly on the business side =)
If HP is outsourcing, then it is in their home/printer department...I doubt they are outsourcing Linux support.

Re:Buy with a conscience

[thesupraman]

Excellent!
As a person who was 6 months ago blocked from working in the US (actually I was supposed to go there to train people in the use of software I had written, but this was blocked by a union using US work laws.. I would have been there for 3 weeks.) after the same group of people had spent over 6 months here in my country working without problem or limitation (and I must say they had a great time also!) I am completely in support of HP, thank you for pointing this out!
Of course, I was not informed of these 'problems' until 2 weeks before I was due to leave, so all the development work ended up being wasted, at my expense. The company involved turned around and said it was not their problem, so no payment for any of my work.

But to get back on the subject, good on HP! another step forward for choice and freedom! I was sickened over the last couple of years with the methods msoft have used to try and present the selling of OS-less PCs as a form of piracy, well here is the solution - sell them with an OS, a free one!

The people BUYING the equipment should be the ones who decide what they do (and what they do not!) pay for in their PC, if they don't want to use msoft software, they should not have to buy it!

Of course, I can only assume that this move is due to the fact that people are starting to vote with their feet, and large companies (at least some) are realising that these are good sales being missed.

Re:Buy with a conscience

[Anonymous Coward]

That employment figure is suspect at best, an outright lie at worst.

That's the figure based on the number of people collecting unemployment, which you're only able to do for six months after being laid off. For example, the bulk of the support workers HP outsourced last year would not appear in this figure.

Re:Buy with a conscience

[LWATCDR]

Actually the company I work for is trying to hire phone support techs and a programmer or two. We can not find them. The programmer we got with a shinny degree did not know what a hash table was. He also did not know what the STL was, or how to program in perl or java. He had a limited knowlege of c++ but we spent months teaching him.
It might just be the area I am in but finding phone techs is not easy. No I am not in India and it is very unlikly we will ever outsource. We find having the support people right next to the programers the best way to provide really good support.

Re:Buy with a conscience

[Mr. Darl McBride]

Why is this offtopic? Can any of you fucks even read?

Having "But to get back on the subject" more than half way through the text should have been your clue that something was wrong. This is clue number one in spotting an off-topic post. :)

Re:Buy with a conscience

[Kenja]

"Actually the company I work for is trying to hire phone support techs and a programmer or two. We can not find them. The programmer we got with a shinny degree did not know what a hash table was. He also did not know what the STL was, or how to program in perl or java. He had a limited knowlege of c++ but we spent months teaching him. It might just be the area I am in but finding phone techs is not easy. No I am not in India and it is very unlikly we will ever outsource. We find having the support people right next to the programers the best way to provide really good support."

It must be the area. In the San Francisco area (where I'm located) everyone I know save one (and myself) is working a service job (food prep, buss driver etc) since there are no tech jobs anymore. The one person I know who is working has a three moth contract after being out of work for a year, and while I'm working full time again, I was out of work for six months. Its a little better out there then it was a year ago, but its still very grim.

Re:Buy with a conscience

[Cytotoxic]

That's the figure based on the number of people collecting unemployment, which you're only able to do for six months after being laid off. For example, the bulk of the support workers HP outsourced last year would not appear in this figure.

This is completely wrong. The unemployment insurance numbers have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the unemployment numbers. The government uses a survey, the Current Population Survey (CPS) to determine the unemployment numbers. This is explained in detail at the US Department of Labor's website

Re:Buy with a conscience

[Mr. Darl McBride]

Hmm, last time I called HP for a support issue with a HPUX server, I had a support person that used the words "dude" "Winblows" and "Microsux" quite often. Quite refreshing to hear personaly on the business side =)

"Dude! Let me put down my Big A Mac which I have purchased with my Visa card and copious discretionary income so that I might help you. And if I might say, Microsooks Winblows, sir! I am hating it ev-e-rai bit as much as you, sir! And I am praising Kali ev-e-rai time the thirty living in my home see those fine USA courts are socking it to them entirely on our fine colour tel-o-vision!"

Re:Buy with a conscience

[geekoid]

First, that number is for all jobs, not for just IT.

Second, of course there are jobs being filled, since there are more people then jobs. Let me know when NEW jobs are being created.

It is not fair trade when the people of one country HAVE to make 5 times more then another country because of the cost of living.

"There are also about 6 million jobs in the US for foreign companies"

such as?

Re:Buy with a conscience

[dR.fuZZo]

A 5.6% unemployment rate is NOT shambles.

If you've watched or read any stories about unemployment over, oh, I don't know, the last year or so, you've probably heard it said that the unemployment rate is artificially low because of people who stop looking for work and because of underemployment (e.g., folks with degrees getting laid off from tech companies and taking jobs flipping burgers.)

I could post you the number of real jobs lost over the last few years (hint: ends in "millions") but I'm sure you can go google it yourself.

Re:Buy with a conscience

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear Mr McBride,

Thank you so much for your recent advice. I see from your post you mention that the "But to get back onto the subject" in grandparent was roughly halfway through the text. Ergo, there must logically have followed on from that phrase on-topic comment. Therefore the moderator's original "offtopic" was unnecessary. I hope that concludes our discussion of the matter. I also regret to inform you that after advice from our lawyers, we have decided not to buy a $699 license at this time. Please stop sending us letters.

Yours etc.
etc.

Re:Buy with a conscience

[Anonymous Coward]

I can see that those schools in India that teach people to speak Americanized English are doing a fantastic job. Bravo.

Re:Buy with a conscience

[heinousjay]

Offtopic and flamey, but...

There aren't tremendous amounts of (overpaying) tech jobs because there aren't people with more money than brains throwing everything they own into the latest 1..2..3 Profit!!! business plan anymore.

That's not grim, that's reality. To expect otherwise is to live with your head up your rear.

Re:Buy with a conscience

[Anonymous Coward]

Quite refreshing? Unprofessional and childish is more like it.

Re:Buy with a conscience

[mt_nixnut]

If you've watched or read any stories about unemployment over, oh, I don't know, the last year or so, you've probably heard it said that the unemployment rate is artificially low because of people who stop looking for work and because of underemployment

If you've watched or read any stories for the last year you've also noticed that only stories that help drive the current administration out of office make the top spots. I reallize that this is probably fine with you but if your point is you can't trust numbers I would also level a hefty amount of suspicion on the reporting as well.

There are also other numbers not included in that report and that is self employment. And although I can't support this with anything but anecdotal evidence I think IT workers are more able to successfully enter the self employment ranks than most. And BTW get in a plane and fly almost anywhere, swivel your head around, understand at least one thing about what you see, and stop your whining. I would rather be looking for work in the US "Shambles" than in any of the countries I have visited in the last 10 years.

Re:Buy with a conscience

[Ironica]

Our job market is in shambles? A 5.6% unemployment rate is NOT shambles.

Keep in mind, the unemployment rate omits anyone who is "permanently" unemployed, which means out of a job for more than six months.

The average time out of work for those 5.6% is five months right now, which means a lot of people are falling out of the job-seeker pie in the reported figures.

Finally, 5.6% is about people who have *no* jobs... it doesn't count the "underemployed," or those working part time at Wal-Mart for $7 an hour because their AA in English can't get them a better job.

So a 5.6% unemployment rate can exist when the job market is strong and steady, but it isn't an indicator of very much.

Re:Buy with a conscience

[Ironica]

It might just be the area I am in but finding phone techs is not easy.

What area are you in? How much are you paying? What benefits, etc. do you offer? Is work full-time? Day shift?

It may just be the area that you're in, but it can also be that a lot of phone tech positions have compensation that is not much better than a good retail job, and the work is often a lot more difficult. People are often unwilling to work a night shift on contract for $9/hour when they can work days at $8.50/hour as an assistant manager at Starbucks and get full medical at 32 hours.

Re:Buy with a conscience

[Anonymous Coward]

last time I called HP for a support issue with a HPUX server, I had a support person that used the words "dude"

Are you sure that wasn't Dell? :_)

Re:Buy with a conscience

[LWATCDR]

We start at $10 an hour after one month at $9 for training. Medical after 90 days, 401k, We do have people tha have to work night shifts and weekends. A good tech i.e. someone that comes in on time, does not miss a lot of days, puts forth an effort, and does not tick off customers can make $12 after the first year. Some of our techs make 15-17 an hours.
We are located in South Florida.

Re:Buy with a conscience

[reanjr]

There are Dell support techs who speak English? Huh... I've only called them twice, once speaking to two different individuals, and I never would have thought that they had English speaking techs.

Fuck SCO

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll be so happy to never see the $699 thing again. Ugh

In other news,

[pen]

RMS demands that HP be referred to as GNU/HP.

Re:In other news,

[Anonymous Coward]

To be pronounced GNU/Hippy

Re:In other news,

[Anonymous Coward]

new hippie?
weren't hippies cool during the 70's-80's?

Re:In other news,

[Anonymous Coward]

they weren't cool then and neither are yuppies now

Re:In other news,

[Anonymous Coward]

No, they were cool in the late 60's early 70's. The 80's was the decade of excess. By then, the hippies sold their souls for BMWs. In other words, they grew up.

Re:In other news,

[R.Caley]

|RMS demands that HP be referred to as GNU/HP.

Also knowna as `UNG'.

Re:In other news,

[smoking2000]

Dude, you almost gave me a hartattack

I first read that as GNU/Clippy

...when?

[Penguinisto]

No date or even a projection was given. Bummer.

(PS: does this mean I can buy a laptop w/ SuSE preloaded on it now, here in the US? Or does that global thing mean what most "global" corporate initiatives do - "everywhere outside of the US")?

Re:...when?

[ckathens]

Good luck finding a Laptop with linux. When I started law school 8 months ago, I search EVERYWHERE for a major computer manufacturer which sold laptops pre-loaded with linux, but couldn't find anything. Not even IBM!

Re:...when?

[crackshoe]

I would assume that HP would adopt a single flavor of linux, to decrease their hassle/improve support. and i can just image the tech support people once they've been'trained' to fix user problems on linux.

Re:...when?

[crackshoe]

Note that i am a moron, and failed to read the full article. However, it would be nice to see HP (and those its working with) iron out the possible difficulties and hardware conflicts (video drivers say what? answer: doooooooom), that would benefit the entire community, not just HP users (except, of course, that maybe they'll just go proprietary stuff so that all the drivers only work on HPs. but i don't think they're that evil.)

Re:...when?

[JawFunk]

But loading Linux they way you want it done is half the fun of it's flexibility. I would not want pre-installed Linux, but I would like guidelines as to how to make my laptops/desktops PC's hardware work once the OS is loaded, as this ontinues to cause me grief - WORK YOU GODDAM SOUNDCARD!!!

I currentyly run RH 9 on a 5-year old HP 8580 C (500MHz days). AndI switched b/c I am too cheap to upgrade my hardware and needed to run apps on it, Linux being more stable and less resource hungry.

Re:...when?

[Neil Blender]

Linux being more stable and less resource hungry.

Word to that. This week I am rebooting three servers that are close to 497 days uptime. Unfortunately, I have to lose my fabulous uptime because there are a few utilities that do not function so well once it reaches the 497 day mark due to 32 bit integers.

Re:...when?

[needacoolnickname]

Yellow Dog Linux

Re:...when?

[tedric]

I got my Thinkpad T40p here at http://nofost.de/. This shop is an IBM business partner and has a special program for students.

The laptop came pre-installed with Win XP professional but also with a SuSE 9 pro box and a special IBM SuSE 9 CD to install a dual-boot system, doing all the repartitioning, and so on.

I can't imagine that IBM doesn't sell this special SuSE CD with their Thinkpads in the US, too.

Buy

[DrugCheese]

I'll probably try to buy a manufactored PC for the first time in 10 years simply to support the principle of having a choice.

Re:Buy

[molarmass192]

Hang on there, this is only for "its portfolio of business desktop and notebook PCs", the key word here being "business". This means we won't be seeing HP Linux PCs at BestBuy / CircuitCity in the near term at least.

Re:Buy

[Anonymous Coward]

Just donate money to some free software thing instead.

Re:Buy

[Ironica]

this is only for "its portfolio of business desktop and notebook PCs", the key word here being "business". This means we won't be seeing HP Linux PCs at BestBuy / CircuitCity in the near term at least.

I don't know anything about how HP markets its computers, but I do know that with Dell, the categories of "Home/Home Office/Small Business/Enterprise" are basically just suggestions. You can go to their website and order from any category. They just put together default packages that make more sense for different markets... like whether or not it comes with speakers, for example.

So it's possible you will be able to buy one of these for personal use, though maybe not at Circuit City or Best Buy. (They might have a shelf tag for it at Best Buy, but after fifteen minutes of searching, you'll find a clerk who finds a guy who actually knows anything about the inventory to tell you they're all out, sorry... would you like this thing over here that's 2x as expensive and doesn't do what you want?)

Re:Buy

[cavebear42]

I do know how HP markets their product. It is not a suggestion. Dell takes the same approach that Redhat/Fedora takes. Home lines are for cutting edge, may or may not work, state of the art. Biz are for tested, tried and true. Dell will guaranty the life of a model and parts for it as well as all the software on it, but only for the biz. Dell further sorts their systems to desktop and workstation for what is used by normal people and system that have raid, dual video cards, and other geeky things.

Hp has a different approach. they have personal and biz as well. the personal are pavilions and can be sorted into American made (fixable) and foreign made (disposable). check your first 2 chars of serial number if you are wondering what country it was made in. The biz lines are divided into low end, high end, and thin client. these are not sold in store and rarely sold one at a time. if you want them, you need to hook up with an HP salesman.

I am a certified Dell, HP, Compaq, Apple, IBM ..blah, blah, blah... tech. To be fair I have not been working HP/Compaq directly since shortly after the merger and the way they operate may have changed but I would suspect that they are referring to Brios, Kayaks, ect.

Re:Buy

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, because HP is a charity, and "supporting" Linux by loading it onto an ugly plastic box filled with compromise components slotted together by slave labor in China or Indonesia is something that deserves your cash.

Re:Buy

[Anonymous Coward]

The Dell Dimensions in the "Home" section look pretty much identical to those in the "Large Business" section -- maybe the software package is different, but the hardware is the same. HP does have a completely different lineup for the Home market.

Re:Buy

[JLester]

HP's Compaq division has the consumer line (Presario) and the business line (Deskpro/EVO). You've been able to buy Deskpros for a while now preloaded with Linux.

Jason

Re:Buy

[plaa]

I'll probably try to buy a manufactored PC for the first time in 10 years simply to support the principle of having a choice.

The Slashdot story was, unsurprisingly, misleading.

In the article (or this press release) I've seen absolutely no mention that they'd be selling the PC's to the masses, only to enterprise customers.

A few snippets from the press release (emphasis mine):

"HP is now the first major technology vendor to offer enterprise customers a single, proven Linux solution from desktop to datacenter," said Martin Fink...

...across its portfolio of business desktop and notebook PCs...

It seemed almost too good to be true... and so it probably was.

Re:Buy

[plaa]

In the article (or this press release) I've seen absolutely no mention that they'd be selling the PC's to the masses, only to enterprise customers.

OK, to correct myself, no other mention except the following quite ambiguous line:

The agreement follows word from HP last week that it was considering launching a desktop computer based on Linux in Asia.

So maybe it's coming along, but not quite yet.

Re:Buy

[Anonymous Coward]

They probably don't want to sell them to home users, because they don't have the support infrastructure to tell Billy he can't run Star Wars XXX (unless he pirates Windows), and it would just be bad for their reputation.

Re:Buy

[cbowland]

You can also by a 'Java Desktop Sytem' (Sun's new Desktop Linux -- based on Suse) from Walmart. Prices range from $298 to $698 depending on the hardware (all Microtel machines, as are most of Walmart's linux computers).

Re:Buy

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a feeling they don't want to touch average Joe-level support of Linux with a 10 foot pole. Margins are low enough to offer support on a $399 PC with Windows. Linux would be a nightmare to support for the average fool who bought the $299 Linux machine to get a deal and not knowing what the fsck to do with it when she got it home.

With enterprise users, they can pull in more dough to justify the support costs and have a better chance of having someone with a clue as their point of contact.

Re:Buy

[Anonymous Coward]

Care.

Re:Buy

[cavebear42]

The dimensions are always meant to be for home use. Dell trys to put a good spin by saying that it is for cutting edge technology but if you ever try to buy a bunch of them at once, the salesman will try to talk you out of it. In any case, here is the dell responce to Optiplex vs. Dimension.

It's about time...

[IO ERROR]

...that a major computer manufacturer started offering desktop PCs with Linux pre-installed. Even though I'm not terribly impressed with HP's hardware, this definitely makes me more likely to support HP in the future - but only so long as they don't back down when Microsoft and SCO come calling and tell them to quit it.

Re:It's about time...

[PCM2]

Umm, I didn't read anything that said they'd be shipping Linux pre-installed. All I saw was that they will "ensure that its business customers can use the fast-growing software on its desktop and notebook computers by providing support and testing." (Emphasis mine.)

Re:It's about time...

[JLester]

You've been able to buy their business-line with Mandrake preinstalled for several months now.

Jason

Re:It's about time...

[Mr. Piddle]

+5 Interesting?

Remember, guys, this is the same HP that is gutting/gutted their core traditionally best-in-class businesses like Laser Printers, Lab Equipment, Calculators, and RISC CPUs!

HP, like IBM, is a member of Slashdot's "loved today hated tomorrow" club.

Re:It's about time...

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, they are drop in box. Mandrake was DIB, SUSE will be DIB.

No plans to preinstall yet, though it is a possibility. Workstations products and some servers already come preinstalled. There is no (or very little) corporate demand for preinstalled linux yet.

Me workie there.

Re:It's about time...

[JLester]

Ah, I didn't know that. We have a custom order page for our company. I just saw them on there and figured they were preinstalled.

Jason

Re:It's about time...

[corngrower]

The article referenced didn't mention anything about hp shipping mahines with linux pre-installed, but a press release from Novell did. Only for corporate customers requesting it, however.

Linux can run more stuff that this...

[CharAznable]

"Fink said that he expects businesses to use Linux where employees only need a few applications, such as in a call center or support center where workers need to access only a database and e-mail." I have one of the only 2 or 3 Linux desktops in a predominantly Windows environment and I can do considerably more than anyone else. On the other hand, we're safe as long as Management does not know about the existence of Tux Racer and FreeCiv!

Re:Linux can run more stuff that this...

[IO ERROR]

Throw in WINE and Linux can do a lot more than you think. At my last job I ran the Lotus Notes client under WINE, and it was mostly flawless. Had the occasional trouble printing, but I think that's been fixed in recent WINE builds. This was in 2000-2001...

WINE also ran the company's internal custom Windows applications without so much as a hitch. If we hadn't had that printing trouble with Bloated Goats, I probably could have convinced the execs to migrate to Linux and cost Microsoft a few thousand licenses...not to mention the incentive program they had where you got a cut of any money you saved the company.

Re:Linux can run more stuff that this...

[irokitt]

"No boss, I'm not playing solitaire, see, this is Linux! No games!"

Reuters Buying the SCO line?

[Mr Thinly Sliced]

From the article:

... The operating system has made inroads in corporate data centers, gaining ground against the Unix operating system on which it is based and other operating systems.

Even Reuters seems to be falling for SCOs crap.
Sigh.

Re:Reuters Buying the SCO line?

[jdunn14]

Based doesn't mean that the code base came from Unix. I'd agree with Reuters in that Linux is based on Unix from a design perspective. It's no coincidence that the command line is extremely similar, or that errno.h is similar, etc.

Re:Reuters Buying the SCO line?

[Anonymous Coward]

Except it's the truth: Linux is based on unix APIs. Thus the statement that linux is based on unix is not false; however, it is a bit misleading in light of sco's claims that linux's source code is based on unix source code.

Re:Reuters Buying the SCO line?

[twigles]

What's the crap? Linux is based on Unix and is taking market share away from expensive proprietary Unices like solaris. Otherwise Sun wouldn't be selling Linux on Intel boxes.

If you are going to split the "what is Unix" hair then I bow out already because legal semantics bore me.

Re:Reuters Buying the SCO line?

[DaHat]

One OS can be based on another with out a single line of code being copied... lets take a look at the dictionary.com definition of based>.

I like #4, "The fundamental principle or underlying concept of a system or theory; a basis"

Linux is quite similar to Unix in terms of its higher level command set (ie what a user types in to a console to say... list the contents of a directory). By building a system which is functionally similar to an existing system, you help to ease the transition from one to the other, you base your new work on old.

Another example of this would be XPde, tell me it isn't in some way based on the Windows XP GUI, I highly doubt a single line of code was copied from Windows XP into XPde.

Re:Reuters Buying the SCO line?

[Mr Thinly Sliced]

From a design/philosophical perspective I'd agree - but being based from a design perspective is a bit different to just saying 'based on unix'.

Don't forget how much money you have to spend to be able to say 'based on unix'.

Didn't apple get in trouble over that not so long ago?

Dan

Re:Reuters Buying the SCO line?

[BCW2]

Are you saying Linux isn't based on Unix?

Gee why are all the command line commands interchangeable?

Re:Reuters Buying the SCO line?

[Mr Thinly Sliced]

Yeah, here it is:
at news dot com dot com.

Re:Reuters Buying the SCO line?

[Mr Thinly Sliced]

Fair enough - lets take an analogy, they're always good for stirring up some controversy:

• Hyundi car - sets of pedals, levers lights engine.
• Ford car - sets of pedals, levers lights engine.

Just because the two things operate, or appear similar on the surface does not infer that one is based on the other or vice-versa - it simple means that both operate using similar principles.

Linux isn't Unix Based, it just happens to work like it. And by the way, it is mostly GNU tools that work like Unix!

Re:Reuters Buying the SCO line?

[Mr Thinly Sliced]

You ever tried different ps commands on AIX,Solaris,IRIX,HP-UX?

They don't all work the same. At all. Besides which, the things you are talking about are the user-space tools - that stuff is all GNU baby, and Gnus Not Unix.

Re:Reuters Buying the SCO line?

[yourruinreverse]

It's no coincidence that the command line is extremely similar

Linux has a command line now? I didn't know that!
Oh, I see it now :

CONFIG_EXPERIMENTAL=y

# CONFIG_DOSPROMPT is not set

My mistake.

Re:Reuters Buying the SCO line?

[Anonymous Coward]

And they say Mac OSX is based on unix, too. They're right to a greater extent than the comparison to Linux, yet.

These are marketing people with no real knowledge; they make spin. Rule #1 is that they'll fuck anything up.

Re:Reuters Buying the SCO line?

[Anonymous Coward]

I highly doubt a single line of code was copied from Windows XP into XPde.

Well, maybe until the windows source code leaked. Now there is quire alot of suspicious code going into that project.

Re:Reuters Buying the SCO line?

[Anonymous Coward]

lets take an analogy, they're always good for stirring up some controversy:

Fair enough. Modern Ford and Hyundai cars are based on cars that went before them (particularly the Ford Model T, of course). UNIX was around before GNU/Linux. It is no coincidence that both use ls to list the contents of a directory. Crucially, if UNIX used `unmount` instead of `umount`, I have absolutely no doubt that GNU/Linux would also. GNU/Linux was designed to be compatible with UNIX. It is based on it. But then you knew that anyway.

This is an interesting announcement...

[Anonymous Coward]

in light of the similar one recently regarding HP and Linux in Asia.

A thought, though; is HP willing to provide indemnification to it's Linux users against actions by SCO?

--
Discuss homemade renewable energy systems

Re:This is an interesting announcement...

[zoobaby]

They are in a way.

http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/m ai n/HP_protection.html

Why is this going to be different than Dell

[MajorDick]

Why is this going to be any different than Dells attempt at selling Linux Based PC's ? Dell tried it and it failed. For a lot of reasons, support, lack of customers and about 50 other reasons. Im curious as to why HP thinks they can make this succeed.

Re:Why is this going to be different than Dell

[Anonymous Coward]

It's basically going to sell them as kiosks for phone monkeys. Hardened against all but the most persistant idiots.

Re:Why is this going to be different than Dell

[GooberToo]

Because Dell's effort was completely half-assed, at best. Dell made as much effort to sale Linux as you wanna kiss your friend's date's ugly girlfriend. Simple fact is, if someone actually makes an attempt, they make actually be able to do something with it.

Dell's attempt was worthless and self defeating.

Re:Why is this going to be different than Dell

[mahdi13]

It won't fail for HP because Linux has a much larger marketshare now then when Dell tried it 5 years ago.

Re:Why is this going to be different than Dell

[Anonymous Coward]

As a reply to my previous. HP D530 with Windows, $854, with Mandrake Lite, $725.

Re:Why is this going to be different than Dell

[gnuLNX]

Because the Dell I bought with red hat linux shipped without the ethernet card even configured properly...Dell made a very half assed attempt at linux..Oh it it was only on the workstations not the desktop variety.

Re:Why is this going to be different than Dell

[Secrity]

Dell was (half assed) trying to sell Linux to people running MS Windows, HP will be trying to sell Linux to people running Unix.

Re:Why is this going to be different than Dell

[pubjames]

Why is this going to be any different than Dells attempt at selling Linux Based PC's ?

1) Dell got slapped down by Microsoft, which probably wouldn't happen now.

2) Dell's attempt was half-hearted.

3) It was quite a long time ago. Linux has improved considerably since then.

Re:Why is this going to be different than Dell

[Otter]

OK, I'm a cynic but -- back in 1998-1999, all the PC makers were falling over each other to brag about their desktop Linux plans. Dell, HP, Compaq, Gateway... And none of it materialized.

Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. I'm not getting excited about this until it's clear that HP is accomplishing anything meaningful.

Re:Why is this going to be different than Dell

[CherniyVolk]

I didn't purchase a Dell pre-installed Linux system becuase, only business could purchase them. And, those consumer targetted Linux pre-installed systems are crap. Machines with crappy processors, crappy video cards, crappy RAM and harddrives, and at a similar cost as if Windows was preinstalled. Forgive me if I'm incorrect, but wasn't that the main question for VA Linux hardware? Specifically their laptops; which seemed more expensive than the Windows pre-installed competition?

They need to seriously allow choice across the board, on all hardware sold to business and consumers. That's my feeling on it, and all the hardware should reflect a considerable price decrease if Linux is chosen.

Re:Why is this going to be different than Dell

[4of12]

Dell's attempt was half-hearted.

On the desktop, to be sure.

Dell has been doing a pretty good business selling Linux servers though, as has HP and IBM.

The late 1990's Linux desktop fad as a business was premature and the market was not thought out well.

The initial Linux desktop market is technical, engineering, DCC, universities.

And, some limited special purpose kiosk use.

Application interoperability with MS file formats, templates, fonts, hardware compatibility had to improve substantially before you could get a broader market for desktop Linux. It's much closer now, but anyone deploying desktop Linux now will definitely get both the "Early Adopter" fame and still have to suffer some lumps, too.

Re:Why is this going to be different than Dell

[Bilestoad]

And none of it materialized because:

- people don't want Linux. Nobody working on Open Source cares to define consistent UI guidelines, to write decent documentation, to hide the seemingly complex underbelly or to offer more than RTFM! when "lusers" have problems. In short effort goes to making things work rather than making them usable, two very different aims.

- people who know enough to run Linux know they can build a machine themnselves with more power for less money. And forgetting "more power", how about "more appropriate"?

- on the same note those who know enough to run Linux realize that a PC from Dell/HP contains proprietary components like power supplies that don't quite follow the ATX standard - maintenance will be more difficult. Unless you buy the maintenance plan, and want to call Dell tech support, based in Calcutta... hmm, getting expensive, and ANNOYING!

- The major source of business for Dell etc. is corporate sales. Corporates don't choose Linux because they like a standardized platform for the IT drones to support. Rare is the enterprise where engineers run the show and "best" is number one on the list of criteria for a platform.

HP will not accomplish anything meaningful. HP is the Britney Spears of computer companies, everything glossy, pretty and cheap - it's all about the money and the fact that Linux costs them nothing to load is the only motivation for this cynical move. HP used to be great. Please everyone, mail your copy of "The HP Way" to Carly Fiorina today - I hear she has received a few hundred already from various disgruntled emplyoees/ex-customers, but the message hasn't sunk in yet, or she's too busy with her personal hairdresser to have read any of them.

Re:Why is this going to be different than Dell

[MajorDick]

"Dell got slapped down by Microsoft," Could you be more specific on this ? I am curious what they did.

Re:Why is this going to be different than Dell

[the_rev_matt]

I hate to break it to you, but Dell still sells Linux based PC's. They backed off on promoting them under threats from MSFT, but they are actively selling and supporting them. Check out linux.dell.com. Also check out the precision workstations. Select a model, then click the right side nav for getting it with linux.

Re:Why is this going to be different than Dell

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft has been known to jack up the price of windows considerably on anyone who is found to be selling non-MS products. I assume this is what happened to Dell. They were given the choice of continuing to sell cheap Windows machines, or pursue Linux.

Re:Why is this going to be different than Dell

[GooberToo]

That's not entirely true.

People specificially went to Dell to buy a pc/linux combo, however, most couldn't find it was offered. Worse, it was only offered on select models. On top that, of the select models, it was only offered for server configurations. Desktop users were out. On top of that, even on the models that it was offered, the website failed to offer it or make it generally available. And, don't hold me to this last part, but I seem to recall, even if you did manage to order a server with Linux on it, you still paid the MS tax.

In otherwords, Dell has never made a serious attempt to sale Linux. I have met with Dell internal support and infrastructure right before this all happened. To say they were fairly Linux clueless was an understatement. They know and sale MS. Period.

Dell never seriously attempted to sale Linux. At best, they did it to better their MS contact position (specuation on my part).

Re:Why is this going to be different than Dell

[mahdi13]

That and MS doesn't have a strangle hold on the OEMs anymore

Support issues

[ewg]

I understand the Linux PCs are destined for some very specialized applications... ...but still it will be interesting to see what kind of support issues and options come with this offering.

Re:Support issues

[Crudely_Indecent]

After working in many help desks, I can safely say "THANK GOD IT'S NOT ME."

I can hardly stand Windows users who can't figure out how to right click, I'd fly off the deep end if trying to explain something like editing a conf file.

Ok ma'am, I'd like you to type "nano -w /etc/X11/XF86Config-4".....no...ma'am...please..ty pe "N-A-N-O"....no...that's "N like Nancy, A like Apple, N like Nancy, O like Orange".....oh....yes, I understand now....please turn your computer on. That's the button with the I and O on it.....No, not the I and O buttons, it's a single button with an I and an O on it. Wait...you're at home and your laptop is on your desk at work? No, I can't explain this so you can take notes. Please call back tomorrow. *click*

Cheaper with Linux . . . or not?

[StateOfTheUnion]

If the same system is available with MS-Windows or Linux, will the Linux system be cheaper (No M$ License fee)? My cynical bet is that the systems will cost the same . . .

Re:Cheaper with Linux . . . or not?

[geekoid]

So?

You relize were only talking about 20 bucks or so, right?

Re:Cheaper with Linux . . . or not?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, they are about $100 less. I've been loading machines (XP) for the local phone company and I like the HP D530 box with its small footprint. Looked it up at HP, about $600 without Windows and $700 with (IIRC).

Re:Cheaper with Linux . . . or not?

[StateOfTheUnion]

short answer: It's the principle of it . . .

Longer answer: If the cost is the same for a M$ system and a Linux system, the economic value of Linux will be at least to some part exploited by the hardware vendor. Perhaps with shrinking margins in the hardware business this is at least some of the appeal of Linux systems to hardware vendors. I have no idea whether Linux systems are normally cheaper than their Windows counterparts, but I think that it is interesting to determine where along the hardware system value chain the economic value of Linux is exploited.

This is not to say that having Linux preinstalled on systems is not a great thing, but there is certainly an economy to doing this . . .

Re:Cheaper with Linux . . . or not?

[primus_sucks]

Linux should be more expensive, since it's more secure and stable. My Linux applications at home never crashes 10 times a day like my piece of crap work Windows applications (mostly windows explorer). I've never had viruses installed on my Linux computer like I've had on my work computer (just by visiting the wrong website, not by opening any email attachements!).

Re:Cheaper with Linux . . . or not?

[geekoid]

Maybe, but they still have to pay for everything they did with MS, but they now have to watch to be sure there harware works on linux, out of the box.

Not to mention, I have no Idea if there partnering with another company. Lets say they partnered with Red Hat, then a certian fee will be going to Red Hat. I would wager it would be pretty close to the same fee as MS. What else are you going to do? pay a team of people to burn CD's all day?

I see your point, and if resellere were charged the same for XP as there over the counter costs, then yeah, I would expect a dramatic drop in price.

Re:Cheaper with Linux . . . or not?

[Otter]

Given the extra cost of supporting Linux, I'll be surprised if the cost remains the same as Windows preloads -- assuming this plan remains for the long term, which will also surprise me.

Re:Cheaper with Linux . . . or not?

[pjkundert]

I would be totally happy to pay the same amount for a supported Linux desktop, laptop or PDA, as for the Windows version. I would much rather give my money to a company willing to support me, than to Microsoft, who as never supported me, no matter how many copies of software I have bought.

I have worked with Windows since 2.0 (yes, you read that right). I've installed (and re-installed, and re-installed...) it on hundreds of computers -- for friends and family, not as my job! I've purchased several copies of Windows for our business -- not by choice, but because necessary software has required it.

Microsoft has had literally hundreds of chances to "win me over", by just giving a *shit*, JUST ONCE, about my experience. But, they don't even know I exist. So, I've used Linux since 1995. Through all the growing pains (ever installed Slackware from 36 floppies?). Through the infancy and adolesence of Open Office, KDE, Mozilla. Through the busted device drivers, developed by dedicated developers blindfolded by the hardware manufactures they are working to enrich -- who, in turn, are slobbering after Microsoft.

How many other people are willing to put up with just about ANY amount of annoyance, just to get some option OTHER THAN Microsoft? I'll bet there are a LOT of such people.

If Microsoft can't make Billions AND give a crap about their clientelle, then they deserve to get the crap kicked out of them by Linux. It's not a question of if, but when.

Re:Cheaper with Linux . . . or not?

[Trejkaz]

Apart from the obvious support contracts, why wouldn't you just take a blank of any freely-available distribution down to a CD stamping outlet, and get them to do the copying? You can get large quantities done, you can get branded labels printed on, anything. And all without dealing with RedCrap.

Re:Cheaper with Linux . . . or not?

[Tough Love]

"You relize were only talking about 20 bucks or so, right?"

You're quite wrong, it's closer to $80 to the OEM it will be a hundred by the time you buy it. Only the largest OEMs get discounts and it doesn't bring it down a lot, $60 at lowest.

Re:Cheaper with Linux . . . or not?

[frostman]

I think the make-or-break on this is going to be the standard apps:

Web Browser (hopefully Moz/FF)

Mail client (hopefully Moz/TB)

Office Suite (OO or similar)

The first two MS gives away free, but the open-source free versions are vastly superior.

The second one is better (o blasphemy!) in the MS version, but expensive; whereas the free versions are probably good enough for most people and, well, free.

If I were Ballmer* I would put serious pressure on the Office group to come up with a "good-enough" version that could be bundled with (but not, for anti-trust reasons, overly integrated with) the OS.

Seriously, if you consider the cost of a low- to mid-range PC with fully-legal software then you are looking at serious savings on the office suite alone, at least for small and medium-sized businesses.

* If I were Gates, I'd be reading my DaVincis on the beach and having fun. Why can't that dude chill out and just enjoy life??

Re:Cheaper with Linux . . . or not?

[incom]

The only problem there though is, how do we know they aren't paying the MS tax on the hardware anyway, as part of a contract. The (even a little) lower price reassures me than I'm not lining Gates' pockets. And an added bonus of a lower price, it will increase the chances that people will get the linux model, thus potential new linux users.

Good stuff, hardware vendors take note

[gilesjuk]

Those chip makers who say they don't want to release information on their chipsets without a NDA had better take note. They're likely to miss out supplying chips for "Designed for Linux" style PCs.

Re:Good stuff, hardware vendors take note

[TheSunborn]

Or maybe HP just sign the nda and include a binary kernal module with their linux.

Re:Good stuff, hardware vendors take note

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, they won't care, because (for a while at least) the only "Designed for Linux" PCs will be things like managed workstations that use generic hardware anyway.

Re:Good stuff, hardware vendors take note

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder how long it will take HP's upper management honchos in California to figure out that the biggest brat with respect to proprietary hardware is one of their own bastard stepchildren - Compaq's PC designery down in Houston.

I've been waiting for years to see this sort of announcement, and will be looking forward to when said products will actually become available. Anyone following the links from http://www.hp.com/linux the last few months would have really wondered what the real extent of HP's commitment was, since they hadn't listed any newly qualified desktops or laptops, and the ones that were listed were no longer available (e.g., evo500).

The cynic speaks...

[Faust7]

Novell is latching onto anything they think can make them money because they certainly haven't made a penny in years.

What about HP? HP-UX is dying, they need to jump on something.

Red Hat will help push Linux to desktops. HP is wandering in the woods.

Windows dominance is already threatened by Linux existence. Keeping that threat manageable is the key to Windows survival.

Re:The cynic speaks...

[BCW2]

Novell is still the best backbone around. Secure and easy to admin. Redhat abandoned the desktop.
Do you ever read any article on /.?

Re:The cynic speaks...

[Elektroschock]

Well, Suse is a good choice, my favorite distro. And HP will make sure that their notebooks support Suse Linux. That means they will have to invest in Kernel development.

Re:The cynic speaks...

[Anonymous Coward]

Redhat abandoned the desktop. Do you ever read any article on /.?
Mod parent as funny since there is no +1 dumbass

Re:The cynic speaks...

[vsprintf]

What about HP? HP-UX is dying, they need to jump on something.

How about Carly?

HP is wandering in the woods.

Same problem.

Re:The cynic speaks...

[Ingolfke]

I like your cadence... let me try...

Faust7 bathes occasionally, but only in yesterday's bathwater.

Oh yeah, this is fun... I'm going to give it another go.

RedHat has pulled out of the Linux desktop support business, unwashed masses still wear Fedoras.

Novell must develop a strong "pimp hand" and good "street sense" in order to turn a profit from it's stable of Linux biatches.

I have nothing to say, and even less time to say it.

Re:The cynic speaks...

[lushmore]

Novell is latching onto anything they think can make them money because they certainly haven't made a penny in years.

Good for them. If they were losing money and they didn't try something new, THAT would be a problem.

What about HP? HP-UX is dying, they need to jump on something.

Every product in every industry is dying. The companies that don't jump on something else are the ones that die.

Red Hat will help push Linux to desktops. HP is wandering in the woods.

Red Hat has already burned bridges with many hardware vendors, and they've pissed off the user community at large by dropping their mainstream distribution. Watch for them to lose market share until IBM buys them.

Windows dominance is already threatened by Linux existence. Keeping that threat manageable is the key to Windows survival.

Hey, you managed one-for-four, at least you avoided a shutout.

Re:The cynic speaks...

[Anonymous Coward]

Fedora and Red Hat Server really got people confused about how to jump.

HP is using Turbolinux in Asia (See http://www.turbolinux.com/news/040416.html), but I wouldn't be surprised if they use other distros as well.

For Call Centers, etc. seems like a good idea...

Re:The cynic speaks...

[meadowsp]

Novell's Profit

Time to mature

[mao che minh]

Linux (and more importantly, the applications that the big dogs like IBM and Novell are now pushing on it) will never mature to a usable level until it gets corporate desktop exposure. With it, they begin to get feedback, like "We need feature A in application B, and this aspect of KDE/Gnome/Ximian isn't very useful".

It's a shame that the Asian market gets it first (for selfish reasons), I would like to see a fully functioning Novell/Suse desktop (the people at the Brain Share "show" are getting a sneak peek now).

Re:Time to mature

[Anonymous Coward]

And next thing you know, you have Windows. Perhaps KDE and Gnome exist and thrive in our circles, because they don't get corporate exposure.

Re:Time to mature

[CherniyVolk]

Linux (and more importantly, the applications that the big dogs like IBM and Novell are now pushing on it) will never mature to a usable level until it gets corporate desktop exposure.

I totally disagree. Corporations are the last place for ideas. I do not understand this general support for corporations across the globe. They are inherently evil due to the fact that humans are in charge and worse, given the lawful rights to over-endulge in greed and oppression. [Which oppression is always the result of greed.]

Linux is extremely useful as it is. If you disagree, it's becuase you don't know it well enough. Intuition only goes so far, and I heard the same argument against MacOS, and MacOS is high up on the pole for ease of use and intuitive design. Bottom line, if you don't find it useable, you don't know the system very well becuase all the functionality is there just as it's in Windows or any other platform.

Not to sound elitist, but I don't care for Linux to be way too easy. People need to know fundamentals about computers, and frankly, I don't care if all they want to do is to check email once a day.

Having a corporation submit ideas, and those ideas be taken seriously is a sure sign of failure in the philosophy and general design of the Linux operating system. Windows, for example, is a demonstration of how ignorant corporate ideas are. And Linux will fall victim to the idiotic requests of corporations just as all senseless functionality in Windows, such as having an excel spread sheet within an email.

Corporate interests do not mix well with engineer's interests, look at the tragedies of NASA for a prime example. To an Open Source developer today, a problem must be fixed if one is found. A corporate analysis of the same problem might be similar to "Oh, the user isn't supposed to type that in. There's no problem, here ignore that bug and add this 'functionality'". This happens to this day, ontop of time limits putting strain on developers to hurry up and pop something out that "works" i.e. medocrity, versus allowing him all the time he needs to thouroughly think about the best way to acheive a solution.

Lastly, I'm positive that there are far more home desktops than their are corporate desktops.

Re:Time to mature

[Jagasian]

I find your post strange, as I do all of my work on a Linux desktop, and I use both Linux desktops and servers at home. If Linux isn't usable, then what the hell are so many people using it for?

Not just that, but the type of feedback you mention is also already being given to open source projects, regardless of corporate desktop exposure.

Re:Time to mature

[Rude Turnip]

"Having a corporation submit ideas, and those ideas be taken seriously is a sure sign of failure in the philosophy and general design of the Linux operating system."

Please come back when you're running a custom kernel with *zero* code submitted by Red Hat, Suse, IBM or any other corporation. Otherwise, you're philosophically fapping.

Re:Time to mature

[shaka999]

I can't speak for other areas but in electronic/circuit design circles Linux on the desktop is here. All the major EDA tool vendors now offer version of their software for Linux. At first this was compute intesive stuff but now that people have built up a number of linux boxes the move is to get the tools with gui interfaces ported...

Re:Time to mature

[Anonymous Coward]

The only reason that Linux scales up to the same range as tradtional UNIX systems (64p, LVM, etc) is corporate contributions from IBM, SGI, HP, and so on. This would have never never happened if it was up to kernel hackers and their 2p workstations.

Re:Time to mature

[meadowsp]

Exactly. Also when he's using a PC that he's built from scratch himself and is using his home made solar panels to power it.

Re:Time to mature

[110010001000]

"senseless functionality in Windows, such as having an excel spread sheet within an email"

Oh yeah, I can't imagine who would find that useful. Certainly not someone emailing a spreadsheet to someone.

Graduate from high school first then you can have an opinion.

Re:Time to mature

[mikechant]

I assume he means 'embedded as an object within an email' which is a non-standard MS way of messing up non-MS email clients, as opposed to 'attached to an email' which is the standard way supported by everyone, MS or non-MS.

Re:Time to mature

[Issue9mm]

While I agree with you, and use Suse & Fedora exclusively, the grandparent has a point, tho I don't think he expressed it that well.

The desktop is usable, but it's not THAT usable. It's not perfect, and it has a lot of... well, just weirdness going on. There aren't enough applications, installation is not always as easy as it should be, despite apt, yum, rpm et al.

What I gleaned from the grandparent post is that although we're getting feedback like he mentioned already, we're not necessarily invested in correcting it. If Joe User says "Hey, why can't I get my remote desktop connection to work," we say "You don't know how to use it."

If somebody has a vested corporate interest, like HP or Novell, and have customers to answer to, they say "Thanks for the input, we'll try and make it easier for you." Then, shortly after, they should begin development efforts to make it easier, which should be changes that are given back to all distros, which make things better for all.

I'm not a Linux expert, tho I can manage my way okay, and there are still things that I don't know how to do or don't understand. Perhaps it's my naivete, but it shouldn't be that hard to learn and use. That my scanner keeps forgetting how to work is insane, when it works fine in Windows. It might be that I'm doing something wrong, but that doesn't matter to my wife (more Jane user than tech), when she has to reboot into Windows to scan in a picture. The impression is that Linux sucks, despite how much she loves a lot of it.

-9mm-

Re:Time to mature

[PantsWearer]

Not to sound elitist, but I don't care for Linux to be way too easy. People need to know fundamentals about computers, and frankly, I don't care if all they want to do is to check email once a day.

This is a sentiment that I will never understand from open source advocates. Nearly by definition open source allows you huge numbers of options. Why can't one option be an easy to use desktop with just common functionality available (email, web, wordprocessing, etc.)? I'm positive the desktop environment that you use is personalized, this is only another degree of personalization. And it's not like you'd be forced to use it!

Don't complain about knowing the fundamentals of things, since I'm sure you don't know the basics of most of the things you use every day. How about how your tv works, from the broadcast signal down to the way it displays? If not, according to your argument, you shouldn't be allowed to watch it, turn it off. Do you even know how your power is generated? Is it nuclear, coal, hydro, wind? If you don't know that you probably should cut yourself off from the powergrid. How about something more basic than that? Do you know how you work? How is the signal generated in your brain to move your eyes to read this post?

People have different needs and they don't want to know how everything works. Open source can easily provide for everyone because of its diversity. There are two major completely separate desktop environments in general use and a huge number of distributions, would a simplified distribution really be so horrible?

Novell's press release

[i2878]

HP and Novell Expand Relationship to Offer Linux From Desktop to Datacenter

Can Novell please get a /. "topic" now?

I wonder what microsoft thinks of all this

[Capt'n Hector]

First HP goes with Apple for music (iTunes and HP iPod) and now they are trying out Linux... that's twice microsoft has been bested in favor of open standards. I never thought I'd hear myself say this, but go HP!

Re:I wonder what microsoft thinks of all this

[Strudelkugel]

But isn't Microsoft a monopoly? I thought monopolies kept the competition from the market?

Gee, wonder what people would say if it turned out Microsoft never was a monopoly...

Re:I wonder what microsoft thinks of all this

[hendridm]

How soon we forget.

Re:I wonder what microsoft thinks of all this

[ramzak2k]

I decided never to buy HP product ever after Carly's insensitive stand on the issue of outsourcing. "Nobody deserves to keep their job" is what the bi*ch had to say.

Re:I wonder what microsoft thinks of all this

[Zordak]

go HP!

I'll chant "Go HP!" when they dump that man-woman Carly Fiorina in a cardboard box on the side of the street, with a swift kick in the ribs for good measure. It takes a truly sick mind to devolve the reputable manufacturer of some of the best instrumentation and the best calculators into nothing more than a mediocre PC shop. Until they dump that ho-bag and bring "Agilent" (WTF?!? That's not even a word!!!) back into the fold, I will never be able to have any respect for them, Linux or not.

Re:I wonder what microsoft thinks of all this

[ramzak2k]

Read here for more info: http://azplace.net/index.php?itemid=322

Re:I wonder what microsoft thinks of all this

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's see dummy.

HP never did anything like this until MS was dragged into court and was ruled to be illegally abusing their monopoly status. Remedies were ordered and competition starts to return to the market.

Yep, you're an idiot.

Re:I wonder what microsoft thinks of all this

[geekoid]

the enemy of your enemy is NOT your friend.

Re:I wonder what microsoft thinks of all this

[Ryan Amos]

Look at it this way: The guys in India and Russia work just as hard as the people here do. HP's competitors will hire these people even if HP does not, yet American workers cost more. If HP doesn't oursource to India, they're at a disadvantage. This is way OT, so I won't debate here as there have been far too many stories about this recently. But the crux of the situation is that the world economy is evolving so that we're not the only people capable of white collar work. If you want the job, you can have it, but it may require relocating to Bangalore and taking a significant pay cut.

I'm not totally insensitive here; I'm in the same boat too, but you have to be realistic and see the direction the world economy is headed. Just because these guys in India weren't born in Kentucky doesn't mean they deserve the job any less. If you work for someone else, you're always going to be subject to their rules. Learn to deal with it or work for yourself.

Re:I wonder what microsoft thinks of all this

[Ironica]

But isn't Microsoft a monopoly? I thought monopolies kept the competition from the market?

Gee, wonder what people would say if it turned out Microsoft never was a monopoly...

[begin antitrust 101 lecture]
A monopoly is a company that dominates a market. There are natural monopolies, and they are legal. It is not legal to leverage legally-gained monopoly power to "enforce" your monopoly on others (by keeping competition out of the market) or to gain monopoly power in other markets.

Microsoft dominates the desktop market. They are now seeing some competition entering. Since it is illegal for them to use their monopoly power to smack down the competition, they'll have to just try to provide a more attractive product. This is not something they are used to doing. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Re:I wonder what microsoft thinks of all this

[Elivs]

First HP goes with Apple for music (iTunes and HP iPod) and now they are trying out Linux...

and my guess is that in 90 days they will be shipping quicktime + itunes on their European PC rather than windows media player.

Elivs

Re:I wonder what microsoft thinks of all this

[Anonymous Coward]

She's 100% correct. Suck it up.

Re:I wonder what microsoft thinks of all this

[mp3phish]

I'm sorry but music from the iTunes store is FAR FAR from "open standards". The ONLY PLAYER in existance which will play iTunes music is the iPod (unless you decompress it and re-encode it again). Soon, HP will have a player that playes iTunes music. That is exactly 2 players, in the entire players market, that can play iTunes music. Get real.

Nothing you say has any basis in factual information. It is all halfassed assumptions you have made which are entirely innacurate. And just plain ignorant.

Next time read the product advertisement before you comment on what you think iTunes can and cannot do.

Re:I wonder what microsoft thinks of all this

[ArsonSmith]

They aren't and never were. They employeed monopolistic practices which is illegal.

Re:I wonder what microsoft thinks of all this

[The Lynxpro]

"First HP goes with Apple for music (iTunes and HP iPod) and now they are trying out Linux... that's twice microsoft has been bested in favor of open standards. I never thought I'd hear myself say this, but go HP!"

Before I get modded down or flamed for writing this, I think it would be the sanest thing for HP to put forward a rational suggestion to Apple for them to license the Mac platform to HP. And here is my reasoning:

1. Longhorn is in developmental hell. The more setbacks Microsoft suffers PR wise regarding security issues and the more applications like iTunes shows up Microsoft developed "solutions", the more PC manufacturers dependent upon Windows suffer. On the other hand, OS X keeps improving, and even the hardest Apple basher on Slashdot has to admit this begrudgingly.

2. The Media Center PC experiment is not prime-time yet. And its only a matter of time before TiVo throws down the gauntlet at Microsoft on IP violations just as its done to Echostar (DishNetwork).

3. As long as Dell is Microsoft's preferred vendor, HP is going to come up on the short end.

4. Linux is not prime-time for Joe Six-Pack. Even the great Mandrake distribution suffers from the same problem as do all other Linux distributions...the availability of known game releases and consumer friendly titles on the store shelf.

Now compare that to the OS X platform.

If HP jumped in and became the SOLE Mac hardware and software licensee, this is what would happen:

1. Component prices would fall for the Mac side of the business, thereby improving both Apple and HP's costs.

2. Consumers gun-shy about buying a Mac over a PC would evaporate because it is no longer locked to a single vendor.

3. The demographic for HP consumer customers is not generally the same as an Apple customer. So there is not a large chance of Apple actually suffering from defections. If anything, Apple would be sure to gain marketshare because HP would legitimize the OS X platform for corporate America.

4. Even if HP did "steal" some Apple customers, Apple would still have a bigger chance at grabbing them with value-added purchases like .Mac subscriptions, iSight, etc.

5. HP's Unix team could directly contribute to OS X. Its not like HP would be a disaster of a "cloner" like what Dell would be. Well, maybe after all the SCO mess is cleared up to be on the safe side.

Of course, HP would have to overcome their reluctance of purchasing microprocessors from IBM (maybe part of the deal would be that IBM had to license the G5 line to Motorola). Apple would have to overcome their licensing reluctance and actually sit down and analyze the fact that HP is no Umax or Power Computing. Apple has come a long ways with the iPod licensing; I would hope they could do they same here.

Re:I wonder what microsoft thinks of all this

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, do you deserve your job? No, you don't. Either your value proposition is a positive one, in which case you are happy, or it is not, in which case you are just a whining piece of future-white-trash and should begin looking over Mississippi vacant lots for a place to park your double-wide, toothless wife and six Camaros.

Shareholders matter. Employees don't. Deal with it!

Re:I wonder what microsoft thinks of all this

[Anonymous Coward]

Too bad slashbots don't like anything that fails to condemn M$ as the most evil force on the planet.

Too bad Linux just isn't capable of competing with an OS designed for users rather than for unemployed engineers' intellectual masturbation.

Too bad about the truth - and sorry about your karma, I expect groupthink will hurt it severely before the day is done. If the regular mods don't get you, Michael Sims is sure to.

Re:I wonder what microsoft thinks of all this

[Dielectric]

Agreed. Carly must be deposed. Every time I use my HP48GX, I shed a little tear for the company that was HP.

Of all the great things HP had at it's disposal, she goes for desktop PCs. I mean, they had the remains of Digital with the super-cool Alpha! HP lab equipment still rules, and their calculators had no equal.

I'm whipping myself into a frenzy again. Dammit, Carly, step down before someone gets hurt!

Re:I wonder what microsoft thinks of all this

[Anonymous Coward]

I bought an iBook solely because it runs OS X. I haven't looked at HP laptops recently, but it's reasonable to assume that they're cheaper than an equivalent Apple. Therefore, if HP sold computers wiht OS X, I probably would have bought from them instead of Apple.

I believe that historically Apple has refused to allow mac clones because of people like me, and that they will continue in the same way.

Re:I wonder what Microsoft thinks of all this

[bogie]

" think it would be the sanest thing for HP to put forward a rational suggestion to Apple for them to license the Mac platform to HP."

You fail to take into account the only thing that matters. Apple is not now nor will they ever be interested in sharing their core business with anyone. If you think Apple would find anything rational about sharing their crown jewels with the lumbering behemoth that is HP you've got another thing coming.

Re:I wonder what microsoft thinks of all this

[ratboot]

It's worth to mention that HP has two Unixes (HP-UX and Tru64) and also the OpenVMS operating system...

Why not a fourth one???

Re:I wonder what microsoft thinks of all this

[Strudelkugel]

A monopoly is a company that dominates a market. There are natural monopolies, and they are legal. It is not legal to leverage legally-gained monopoly power to "enforce" your monopoly on others (by keeping competition out of the market) or to gain monopoly power in other markets

Sounds like this explanation to me.

Re:I wonder what microsoft thinks of all this

[zalm]

Apple will only license Mac OS X as an exit strategy. Believe it or not Apple is a hardware company. They produce software to support hardware sales. You have to buy a computer (with associated hardware) from Apple to get OS X. Apple already has X86 versions of OS X. Apple would lose its market if it did license OS X for X86. Consumers would buy X86 Computers running OS X because of cheaper platform costs.

Re:I wonder what microsoft thinks of all this

[The Lynxpro]

"I haven't looked at HP laptops recently, but it's reasonable to assume that they're cheaper than an equivalent Apple. Therefore, if HP sold computers wiht OS X, I probably would have bought from them instead of Apple. I believe that historically Apple has refused to allow mac clones because of people like me, and that they will continue in the same way."

Well, take into account what you have used to base your arguments. Are HP laptops cheaper than Mac laptops? Yes. On a pure MHZ/GHZ scale, they are. Why is this? Because Intel/AMD chips are generally cheaper because of volume.

If HP and Apple were both procuring the same resources together, that being PPC chips, they would drop in price. Apple would actually increase their profits per machine sold because their costs would be reduced.

Furthermore, you yourself said you purchased an iBook strictly because of OS X. You are a switcher; you aren't Apple's bread-and-butter-continuously-upgrading-to-the-nex t-best-thing-from-Apple that the company relies upon. While Apple would be competing with HP for new OS X converts, they wouldn't be competing for their core customers for the most part. Ergo, Apple has little to lose over my proposition and much more to gain.

Besides, if they can do a focused license with HP on the iPod, which they generate the largest profit margin from (38% per unit sold) than from any other item in their arsenal, then it would not be a losing proposition to do a limited license with HP.

And, I bring this up again...HP could help with the developmental cost of OS X. That is why my suggestion is not damaging to Apple like the typical "cloning" suggestion most people make, ala what happened with Power Computing and Umax, no name companies that competed with Apple for the very same customers.

Re:I wonder what Microsoft thinks of all this

[The Lynxpro]

"If you think Apple would find anything rational about sharing their crown jewels with the lumbering behemoth that is HP you've got another thing coming."

The crown jewel in revenue at Apple is the iPod. 38% profit margin; better than on any Apple Macintosh sale. If Apple is willing to share with this with HP to gain even further leverage on the MP3 player market, then it is safe to assume they would do the same on a limited basis with HP for the computers. It is the same exact argument. Fact: HP is in more retail markets than Apple. Fact: HP has many more business arrangements with Corporate America than Apple does and is more respected in those same halls.

I am not talking about blindly allowing for Mac clones, nor am I suggesting making OS X available for x86. I am advancing the proposition that Apple licenses the Mac to HP to gain a strong ally to advance the platform as well as share in the developmental costs and thereby create a credible alternative to Dell, their common enemy. Think about it this way; hasn't Apple been sharing the developmental costs of the PowerPC line with IBM AND Motorola since 1991? Me thinks I have a point.

Besides, the people who think Apple is cool will still fork out the money for Apple branded machines. And that is Apple's bread-and-butter already.

Re:I wonder what microsoft thinks of all this

[The Lynxpro]

"Apple will only license Mac OS X as an exit strategy. Believe it or not Apple is a hardware company. They produce software to support hardware sales. You have to buy a computer (with associated hardware) from Apple to get OS X. Apple already has X86 versions of OS X. Apple would lose its market if it did license OS X for X86. Consumers would buy X86 Computers running OS X because of cheaper platform costs."

How many times do I have to go back and explain what I already typed clearly already?

My assertion was that Apple would license the Mac HARDWARE AND SOFTWARE. At no point did I suggest Apple license OS X for x86 to HP. Go back and reread what I typed. Yes, I am fully aware that OS X is maintained point-by-point on x86; it is codenamed "Marklar" internally. I did not suggest that at all.

I suggested Apple do a limited license to HP so that HP would also make PowerPC based OS X machines. I laid out the rationalization, basing it upon how such a deal would benefit BOTH HP AND APPLE.

It is not an exit strategy at all. It is a strategy to reduce hardware costs and spread out the developmental dollars between HP and Apple. It is a way for Apple to get more consumers into OS X and away from Windows because an HP branded PPC OS X machine sold at Best Buy would be catering to a different clientele than what Apple reaches currently.

Apple did not sell at Best Buy. There are many reasons for it. However, if an HP Mac machine started being sold at Best Buy, Joe Blow would think automatically that the Mac was no longer the "Betamax" of the computer industry and would take a second look at it. Sure, the HP machine would not be as cool as the Apple one, but it would be a new customer to OS X. And I specified it would be another customer that Apple would have a shot at selling value added solutions at, such as .Mac and iSight, etc. etc. etc.

Do people read the posts before replying to them on Slashdot?

Re:I wonder what microsoft thinks of all this

[Frizzle Fry]

Microsoft dominates the desktop market. They are now seeing some competition entering

Competition is now entering the market? The Mac and Linux didn't exist until now? A year ago I could have bought a Mac. Five years ago I could have bought a Mac. Fifteen years ago I could have bought a Mac. Even though Microsoft has had the most market share for a long time, they have never had a monopoly, which was the parent's point. Providing a definition of "monopoly" is interesting, but most of us know what it means, and many of us do not believe that Microsoft fits that definition.

Re:I wonder what Microsoft thinks of all this

[andy55]

Fact: HP is in more retail markets than Apple. Fact: HP has many more business arrangements with Corporate America than Apple does and is more respected in those same halls.

Um, ok, great. What bearing does this have on this rapidly changing landscape and where things will be in 2-3 years?

and thereby create a credible alternative to Dell, their common enemy.

Apple's enemy is only crappy software and crappy ideals. the grandparent is right on--Apple has sacraficed much to polish their jewels, it's only now it's starting to come full circle... iPod is not much of all their total assets--you're way off in thinking a profit margin is somehow related to a company's assets and overall total value.

Re:I wonder what microsoft thinks of all this

[Watts Martin]

Do people read the posts before replying to them on Slashdot?

Judging by your user number, you're relatively new around here, so we forgive you for asking. But really, next thing you'll be asking if people read the linked articles.

Re:I wonder what microsoft thinks of all this

[Ironica]

Competition is now entering the market? The Mac and Linux didn't exist until now?

Sorry, here's the version for those with lower reading comprehension scores:

"Microsoft is now seeing some competition entering the market traditionally dominated by Windows; i.e. the mass-market prebuilt desktop x86-PCs that are most commonly bought by business and home users."

Also, the statement still stands if the competition was there, but they didn't really see it until now. Furthermore, even if they had some competition before (and many would argue that Apple is now a niche market, and not so much a direct competitor of Microsoft), that doesn't stop new competition from entering now, in the form of someone providing mass-market x86 PCs with Another Operating System.

Re:I wonder what microsoft thinks of all this

[Frizzle Fry]

Sorry, here's the version for those with lower reading comprehension scores:

"Microsoft is now seeing some competition entering the market traditionally dominated by Windows; i.e. the mass-market prebuilt desktop x86-PCs that are most commonly bought by business and home users."

Ah, that's much clearer, thanks. I guess in our reading comprehension class, we haven't yet gotten to the lesson where they explain that consumer PCs only include those than run on a certain kind of processor. Yes, it's much easier when rather than claiming that Microsoft has a monopoly on operating systems, we claim that they have a monopoly on Windows.

Btw, doesn't Apple have a monopoly on "the market traditionally dominated by the Macintosh; i.e., PowerPC computers" (or whaever chip they use now)? Will they soon face massive fines for including a web browser and a media player with their OS, which clearly aren't technologies consumers want and would only be included with an operating system for anticompetitive reasons?

Re:I wonder what microsoft thinks of all this

[Trejkaz]

Maybe if had teamed with someone to make a similar Ogg Vorbis player, I would see the second open standard.

Re:I wonder what microsoft thinks of all this

[Clockwurk]

Sorry, but thats not apple. Apple will never make a move to benefit customers. Apple will make moves that benefit apple and if that has the side-effect of benefitting customers all the better. Thats why you'll never see sub $150 ipods or a x86 version of OSX, they benefit the common man and dilute the elite-ness of owning a mac.

Re:I wonder what Microsoft thinks of all this

[The Lynxpro]

"iPod is not much of all their total assets--you're way off in thinking a profit margin is somehow related to a company's assets and overall total value."

How very true. Although the iPod is responsible for a lot of "good will" Apple is receiving in the press. Otherwise, that ink would be devoted to covering their "dwindeling 2% computer marketshare" and the "Apple is dying" type of story...

Re:I wonder what microsoft thinks of all this

[Anonymous Coward]

*yawn* Are you done? Where in the post does it mention ANYTHING about iTMS? The post is neither ignorant nor innacurate.

You seem to have a lot of pent up anger. I suggest this book. Perhaps it will help.

What model? What features? What price?

[civad]

The news article is too vague. It mentions nothing about the model/ features (specs) price, etc. for the proposed linux desktop. Maybe its too early for that, or maybe HP simply doesnt want to disclose the details... yet

Maybe JDS will get a run for its money

[fantastic max]

Honestly, Java Desktop System (aka, Suse/Gnome/Staroffice/Evolution/Gaim) is pretty good for newbies and for corporate desktop transitioners. If HP (a gigantic OEM) partners with Novell to push Suse, we'll finally get reputable (brand aware) hardware pushing linux, as opposed to Microtel or other tiny vendors. Even JDS is pushing crap through walmart. Hopefully this will really open the eyes of the public and introduce Linux to the mainstream world. Hopefully this will push Novell to integrate Suse with Ximian and make a complete desktop OS that any newbie transitioning form M$ can use. Cheers to HP.... and finally a good linux laptop(?).

Ease-of-Use vs. Linux Service Business Model

[G4from128k]

I wonder if HP and IBM will squeeze out service-only firms like Redhat and Novell as Linux improves in ease-of-use. If Linux becomes very easy to use, there will be less demand for service and support providers that configure and manage Linux systems -- users wil be able to configure and manage their own boxes. I'm sure there will stil be a role for systems integrators for big enterprise rollouts (which IBM and HP can do), but even there I'd bet that many companies will prefer to hire a few Linux techs to oversee these easy-to-use-boxes.

Perhaps profits-from-hardware will supplant profits-from-service as the OSS business model. Why buy support if the system is so easy-to-use that it does not need support? At the very least, service revenues will be inversely proportional to ease-of-use.

Re:Ease-of-Use vs. Linux Service Business Model

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder if HP and IBM will squeeze out service-only firms like Redhat and Novell as Linux improves in ease-of-use. If Linux becomes very easy to use, there will be less demand for service and support

Don't worry. Consider this scenario:
1) Linux suddenly becomes easy to use.
2) Amount of Linux users goes up.
3) The average user IQ goes down at the same time for obvious reasons, which nicely balances the equation.
4) Support sites hire more people.

Never underestimate the stupidity of an end user.

Re:Ease-of-Use vs. Linux Service Business Model

[Mr. Darl McBride]

HP is supporting Novell in their current Linux initiative. That's mentioned in the linked article.

20 years after their big mistake, IBM are well aware of what happens to them when one OS becomes powerful enough to control the hardware market, so they may be hesitant to play favorites. At the very least, you won't see them getting too cozy with whoever is top dog at the time if they can't have an exclusive deal.

It only took the computer industry FOREVER...

[NIN1385]

Wow, that only took them forever. I just hope it's SuSe so I don't have to learn anything new. But anything is better than a Microsoft product!

Puzzeling...

[The_DOD_player]

It is a strange fate the Linux desktop seem to take.

Most of us, who already use Linux on desktop on a regular basis, consider ourselfs power-users. One of the reasons I use Linux (well... KDE ;) ) on desktop, is because it allows me to organize many browser-windows, editors, IM-windows ect. without cluttering the UI. Yet here the Linux-desktop is being presented as a tool for the light-weight users.

It would seem we have little in common with these new Linux users.

Re:Puzzeling...

[Anonymous Coward]

> Yet here the Linux-desktop is being presented as a tool for the light-weight users.

Power users can usually look after themselves. Light-weight users do not tinker much with the PC and use a limited set of applications, so these would be the easiest to target for HP and the like. Middle weight Windows users are really the hardest group. They have specific Windows hardware or software for which a Linux solution is not always available.

Re:Puzzeling...

[Flossymike]

To risk sounding like an AOLer ...

I to feel the same. Almost by definition, if your into GNU/Linux, your pretty into computers, and the chances are your unlikely to be going out there to buy the cheap arse computers. You probabily consider the hardware that is in your computer, all the glorious techy details. I know a lot of people who are out there may wish to assemble thier own computer but for a lot of techy computer people it can still be fine to buy a pre assembled computer as long as the hardware meets thier requirements.

This is great news!

[Krik Johnson]

I recently installed Mandrake 10.0, and although it is still the community version with a few minor bugs, but ar being fixed, I can honestly say that Linux really is ready for the desktop. KDE 3.2 is wonderful, all my hardware works, hundreds of games and software packages and more. If you haven't tried a KDE 3.2 based distro such as Mandrake 10.0, SuSE 9.1, Gentoo 2004 or the soon to be released Slackware 10.0, please try it out and you will see why HP and others are rushing to bring out the latest Linux based desktop machines! P.S. If you have propreitery windows applications that you need to run, try crossover offfice! So get your self linux today and join me and THOUSANDS of Slashdot readers today in the Linux community!

Re:This is great news!

[LordHatrus]

err... sounds like some sort of advirtisement :)

ipod open standard?

[Flamesplash]

iPod and AAC DRM are open standards? If so why is it that only iTunes seems to support the iPod?

Re:ipod open standard?

[repetty]

ACC is an open standard. The DRM is your problem.

Re:ipod open standard?

[Accipiter]

Hey! Please, post more untrue crap. Since you clearly have no idea what you're talking about, you're obviously qualified to spout this shit.

The iPod can alsp play mp3s. Mp3 is an open standard. AAC is an open standard. iTunes supports the iPod. MusicMatch Jukebox also supports the iPod. iTunes is available on Mac and PC.

Dumbass.

Re:ipod open standard?

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear Steve Jobs Catamite --

You claim to know what youa are talking about. Since Microsoft is willing to document and licence it's DRM system, why isn't Apple? Is this just another example of the propritary lock-in that Apple is famous for?

Signed,
--Death to Fanboys

Re:ipod open standard?

[Anonymous Coward]

I could obviously understand wanting to argue against his point. I don't understand why you have to be such a jerk about it. We are not talking about religion or politics here. We are talking about a fucking portable music device. If your this much an ass about something as non-important as this I'd hate to hear what you have to say about something that really matters. For someone with such a low user ID you sure act like a 12 year old Apple fanboy.

Re:ipod open standard?

[tupps]

How would you compete. It would have to be a truly awesome jukebox tool that is better than iTunes. I know there are a few at the same level as iTunes but I have not seen a jukebox/website sales tool that is better.

Alhtough a store that allowed Australian's to spend their money would be good.

Re:ipod open standard?

[Anonymous Coward]

AAC is a standard - open it is not. It is patent encumbered just like mp3, mpeg4 and VC9. Their specs are all available, but implementatons can not legally be free.

Re:ipod open standard?

[Flamesplash]

All ipod like devices play mp3's, I know of none that don't that are actual competition, that wasn't part of my point. My point is that AAC DRM is no better then WMP DRM so how is it going with an open standard when you still have AAC DRM, which afaik is not open at all. In this case you aren't going away from MS for and open standard

MMJB supports the iPod because Apple let them before iTunes worked on windows. You have to get Apples approval, afaik, to interopt with the iPod.

If you want to dispute these point that's fine. I don't claim to know everything, just try to act moderatly mature if you do feel like responding.

Re:ipod open standard?

[Anonymous Coward]

ACC is an open standard. The DRM is your problem.

AAC is not open--it is patent encumbered. Why is this bad? Because it means that you can't have an open source (read: free) AAC decoder that is legally distributable.

This pretty much excludes any of the major distros (Redhat, Suse, Debian, etc) or companies that sell Linux systems from offering software that can play iTunes files. This is one more setback for "Linux on the desktop", because the casual user isn't going to know how to edit config files to pull illicit binaries from offshore servers.

Re:ipod open standard?

[isaac338]

iPod and AAC DRM are open standards? If so why is it that only iTunes seems to support the iPod?

I dunno what kind of iPod you're using, but gtkpod and Rhythmbox support mine just fine. Not to mention MusicMactch Jukebox for Windows (although apparently that stinks).

Re:ipod open standard?

[Flamesplash]

MMJB supports it cause apple used that as the iPod client before iTunes worked with Windows

As for the oter two, did they hack/jerry rig it to work with the iPod or did they actually use some published document from apple that describes how to interopt with the iPod?

Re:ipod open standard?

[Accipiter]

I can dispute your points, and it's hard to stay level when things get posted that are outright wrong.

All ipod like devices play mp3's

Well then, that pretty much knocks your original point out of play, doesn't it?

My point is that AAC DRM is no better then WMP DRM

Really? Find any WMP-based service that is as generous with user's rights as iTunes' DRM. Or *any* other music service for that matter.

MMJB supports the iPod because Apple let them before iTunes worked on windows.

So? I seem to recall you saying "why is it that only iTunes seems to support the iPod?"

You have to get Apples approval, afaik, to interopt with the iPod.

That's absolute nonsense. If anyone needed a hardware manufacturer's "approval" for 3rd party software to work with their hardware, the technology industry would be crippled. Does "reverse engineering" mean anything to you? Check out fair use guidelines for interoperability, then observe projects like GTKPod who pretty much disclaim a complete lack of support from Apple right off the bat.

And for the record (other replies in the thread) I'm not by any stretch an Apple "fanboy"; I'm still wrestling with the fact that I own any sort of Mac to begin with. The rest of my 10+ boxes run Linux. I just very much like my iPod and iBook, and am willing to defend bullshit statements made against them, just as I would for Linux or anything else I know and like.

Re:ipod open standard?

[Flamesplash]

We are talking about open standards and how going with the ipod is some how a shot at MS for not having open standards, I contend that the iPod is not a good example of this.

All ipod like devices play mp3's

Well then, that pretty much knocks your original point out of play, doesn't it?

No, apple has a proprietary DRM just like windows. You get no more open standards with iPod than MS's product.

Really? Find any WMP-based service that is as generous with user's rights as iTunes' DRM. Or *any* other music service for that matter.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here. The ability to authorize up to 3 computers is a nice feature of iTunes if that's what you mean

MMJB supports the iPod because Apple let them before iTunes worked on windows.

So? I seem to recall you saying "why is it that only iTunes seems to support the iPod?"

Sorry should have been, only the products that apple says so can 'easily' ( see the next part) interpot with the iPod. And that's why there are only 2 apps approved by Apple.

That's absolute nonsense. If anyone needed a hardware manufacturer's "approval" for 3rd party software to work with their hardware, the technology industry would be crippled. Does "reverse engineering" mean anything to you?

But if you are forced to reverse engineer then you are obviously not using an open standard, you could just as easily reverse engineer whatever MS puts out too.

Can you point out where you are getting more open standard benefits from an iPod?

Re:ipod open standard?

[Anonymous Coward]

Connecting to the iPod itself is no problem at all, it's just a firewire hard drive with mp3-playing bells & whistles. They probably did some kludging to figure out the iTunesDB format, but i could be wrong.

Re:ipod open standard?

[Flamesplash]

Actually you can't access the music files that the iPod plays via just windows or the regular Mac OS gui. You can if you have something like OSX command line or cygwin that lets you at the underlying file structure, but I dunno how easy it is to add music, getting it off is easy enough.

Despite this aren't most windows only players the same way? Just big external HD's with some special place for the music?

I've only ever owned an iPod so I really don't know.

HP supporting Novell's Effort

[Titusdot Groan]

I was going to say didn't Novell announce this first?

And then I read the article, HP is *supporting* Novell in their efforts to ...

Love the spin on the intro. Was this an HP marketing guy who submitted the story?

Re:HP supporting Novell's Effort

[TheOtherKiwi]

Yes it wasmarketing as shown by ..."No. 1 personal computer and computer printer maker" yeah right, 70% of their revenue comes from printers so how big is the printer company as Larry Ellison calls em?

Re:Goodbye Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

lol. MS stock is up today after the announcement they'd be fined by the EU. Investors realized that $613 million is one week's income for the software giant. Sorry brother.

Forget world tours, show us the drivers

[MrIrwin]

When HP budget injets and scanners come with Linux support in the box then I will take this sort of news seriously.

Re:Forget world tours, show us the drivers

[Realistic_Dragon]

HP actually support their hardware pretty well on Linux. For example:

http://hpoj.sourceforge.net/

They sponsor development and supply information, and the resulting drivers are Free and free software. Pretty much all HP printers (including things like the USB flash memory drives on newer models) have robust Linux drivers.

The whole point about Linux is that we can Do It Ourselves, we don't want crappy binary drivers to come in the box, we just need the spec and we will design our own that can be distributed with the kernel, cups, or wherever else. A bit of support in doing this is even better.

Re:Forget world tours, show us the drivers

[Jim Buzbee]

Well, I guess they're not in the box yet, but it's close at least for ink jets :

HD Inkjet Drivers

Re:Forget world tours, show us the drivers

[rsborg]

When HP budget injets and scanners come with Linux support in the box then I will take this sort of news seriously.

Ahem... I'm almost glad we don't have the choice of inkjets for linux, considering how shoddy most of these POS's are. Most of them are designed to sell ink, and manage to break 12-18 months after you buy them. I'd recommend getting an old LaserJet or cheap standards-based (postscript-compatible) Laser printer... but it's true that there are very few linux-supported multifunction (fax/scan/copy/print) devices out there...

But I think this is a chicken and egg problem... it's not like multifunction or inkjet drivers for linux aren't hard to make...teh companies just need a financial incentive to make them... and if there are more linux PCs and laptops out there, then it'll be more likely that you will see drivers in the future. Getting to "linux-topia" is a many-small-steps process, so don't dismiss this important step as insignificant.

Re:Forget world tours, show us the drivers

[MrIrwin]

I know HP are better than many when it comes to Linux drivers, and I agree with your points about Linux users.

But, if you are promoting Linux for the desktop then I would at least expect you to provide CUPS drivers for all your desktop printers.

Having accross the board plug and play support for all types of hardware and laptops is the biggest hurdle Linux faces in obtaining growing desktop acceptance. HP are in a strong position to seriously redress this problem and become a one stop shop for Linux desktop solutions.

IMHO that would be worth 10 times more brownie points than any marketing campaign, or put more bluntly, the HP board should evaluate long term returns from allocating x$ to driver development budgets against the short term gains of allocating the same x$ to front-line marketing.

Re:Forget world tours, show us the drivers

[mp3phish]

"The whole point about Linux is that we can Do It Ourselves, we don't want crappy binary drivers to come in the box, we just need the spec and we will design our own that can be distributed with the kernel, cups, or wherever else. A bit of support in doing this is even better."

No that isn't the whole point about linux. In linux, if someone doesn't write a driver, it doesn't get written. In linux, there is no stable high performance ATI 3d driver. In linux, there is one for nVidia, but nVidia wrote it. In linux, there is a sblive (emu10k1) driver for creative labs sound cards. But guess who wrote it? People who work for creative labs. And a few others helped with some details in their spare time.

In linux, nothing gets written unless someone writes them. In linux, nobody writes them unless they are written by their manufacturer, or someone who has a vested interest in that particular chipset. Normally, this never happens and only a few types of devices are supported very well in linux (namely network cards). But that's about it.

Look at VIA motherboard chipsets. VIA gives out 100% of their specs. But they don't help with the development, and now their IDE drivers have never been 100% compliant. There are always DMA bugs in it. Look at nVidia's motherboard chipsets. They give out specifications, but their onboard sound and IDE DMA controllers and network cards aren't really supported 100%.

Look at ATI's motherboard chipsets. The same story is true.

Look at the Intel Centrino wireless chipset. The same.

Look at EVERY SINGLE chipset that is anything modern, and chances are, it is unsupported unless the manufacturer developed the majority of the driver themselves.

Linux doesn't just magically produce drivers. Hardware manufacturers have had a significant pull on driver development. And if linux could just pull drivers out of its IO ports all day, there wouldn't be any battle for the desktop. Because 3D video support, 3D sound support, and IDE HW RAID support would have been integrated into the kernel YEARS ago.

None of this has happened.

And so most every day hardware doesn't work properly in Linux.

And so Linux isn't being used all that much.

Your point doesn't hold true in the real world.

Re:Forget world tours, show us the drivers

[lilbudda]

I am the support person for the hp deskjet (hpijs) and AiO (hpoj) drivers. Feel free to email me at linux.deskjet@hp.com or visit http://hpoj.sf.net and http://hpinkjet.sf.net Sux that I have to find out from ./ that we are doing this but hey, go us! I guess.

Re:Forget world tours, show us the drivers

[MrIrwin]

Hmm....Impressive. ( http://hpinkjet.sourceforge.net/ )In fact I like the idea of HP developing thier drivers in the sourceforge much more than the idea of putting them in the box.

Fortunately, due to the way I phrased my comment I do not need to eat my words, I need to take thier announcement seriously.

I appologize for my original post.

Re:Forget world tours, show us the drivers

[Ingolfke]

I agree, and I refuse to use an AMD or Intel processor until the come w/ Linux support out of the box too. And don't get me started about my demands on those chipset vendors!

Re:Forget world tours, show us the drivers

[Anonymous Coward]

There are *very* few HP printers which do not work with linux, and the vast majority of them work 'perfectly' - see linuxprinting.org, go to their printer database, and select 'show all printers by [HP]'

Having a hardware manufacturer include some 'special driver' CD with some device is ludicrous.

Its much simpler if the device uses an existing well documented protocol

For printers, a PDL like PCL or Postscript. Almost every HP Laser or high end printer does. Their lower end stuff uses some PJL, and some 'other' stuff.

There is an equivalent for scanners (even USB ones), but Im not familiar with it. I prefer a SCSI scanner myself. I've got a big honking 8 by 14 scanner with an ADF, with the HP logo on it. I plugged it into the SCSI port, fired up xsane, and bada-boom, I'm scanning.

"Driver disks".. Feh.. Windows weenie.

Re:Forget world tours, show us the drivers

[dabadab]

"In linux, nothing gets written unless someone writes them."

Jeez, that's a really uncommon attribute of Linux :)

Your post is pure BS, by the way.
If there are specs, then the driver gets written.
The driver gets written even in cases when there are no specs (point in case: Aureal Vortex chipsets (now they have better support in Linux than in Windows 2000/XP))

"And so most every day hardware doesn't work properly in Linux.

And so Linux isn't being used all that much."

Are you from the early '90s, or what?...

Re:Forget world tours, show us the drivers

[mp3phish]

"If there are specs, then the driver gets written."

Here is a list of examples which are partially supported in Linux which have full specs distributed. Notice that in most cases these are supported in less than stable form:

-nVidia motherboard chipset drivers
-nVidia soundstorm chipset drivers
-ATI motherboard chipset drivers
-ATI video card chipset drivers for 3D
-VIA Southbridge drivers (noteably IDE DMA)
-A Variety of external USB adapter drivers
-Most video capture chipsets except Booktree/Conexant.

And a list of mfg contributed drivers:
-Intel Centrino wireless LAN chipset drivers (not sure of license?)
-HP Inkjet and Laserjet PCL and photo printing drivers (GPL)
-nVidia 3D drivers (closed source)
-Creative Labs SBLive! (discontinued development with Audigy product line) (GPL)

The point is, the MAJORITY of hardware you find in CURRENT motherboards, PCI cards, or elsewhere in OEM machines is not reasonably supported under Linux by anybody except the manufacturers. Unless you are talking about network cards. But since they all use ancient chipsets and revisions of such chipsets, you can't really say they would be hard to come by after so long. In cases where modern chipsets are not supported by the MFG, there is virtually NO support (such as the ATI 3D Driver). In cases where the driver is supported by the Mfg, your mileage varries from total trash (nvidia 3D, CL Audigy) to high quality drivers (HP Inkjet driver).

Giving one or even many examples to the contrary only backup my point. Someone wrote those drivers. And in most cases, that someone was dedicated developers working for the company that produces the hardware.

No matter how many examples you give me, you still CANNOT PURCHASE a popular motherboard or OEM system with inkjet printer (note that is is what most everyone buys when shopping for a new PC nowadays) which is supported under Linux without the above listed drivers. In other words, my above point was right on, and your argument has no basis in reality.
-

Conspiracy!

[fm6]

This can't be a co-incidence, HP and Novell making big Linux announcements, and IBM stepping up its own Linux push. I smell conspiracy! Do you think Dick Clark is behind it?

No MS tax? Hardware supported?

[straponego]

It sounds good. On the other hand, to date HP's Linux support has been execrable, at least for their laptops and printers. Most of the features can be made to work, if you're patient or willing to buy proper 3d drivers from xig, but you will not find much help or remotely current drivers on their horrible, horrible web site.

Also, will the machines cost as much as equivalent hardware with Windows licenses?

Eh, I'll give them a few months. I'll be very happy if they prove me wrong.

I'm ready!

[ChiralSoftware]

It is too much trouble to tweak Linux to run correctly on many notebooks, because things like software suspend are tricky and very hardware-dependent. Hopefully HP will give us some notebook choices that come with everything set up correctly. That is enough to make my purchasing decision. One thing I hope they do not do is charge the same price for the same notebook with Linux vs. MS Windows. If they do that, Linux customers are essentially paying for an MS Windows license that they aren't receiving, which is wrong. We should be able to buy hardware without a MS Windows license and also not pay for the MS Windows license. I personally prefer the X brand of Windows, not the MS brand of Windows.

Create a WAP server

Re:I'm ready!

[jhoger]

The specific problems with running Linux on notebooks are:

1. Suspend, and power consumption
2. IRQ routing issues
3. Drivers

1 & 2 are due to deficiencies in the current Linux ACPI implementation. Contributions from Intel and these big vendors would resolve this

3 will get pushed with more corporate desktop rollouts

Try KDE 3.2! Its incredibly easy to use!

[Krik Johnson]

Please try a distro based on KDE 3.2. Over a year of development and usabillity testing on it. The result is that many people who didn't use linux because it was hard to use have become linux zealots literally overnight! Distros like Mandrake 10, SuSE 9, Gentoo 2004 are coming out already and they are so easy to use that you don't need any manuals. So, don't wonder, download mandrake 10 today and see how easy it really is!

This is not as good as you might think

[Mentorix]

My experience with the Linux offerings from HP is that they don't really mean Linux, but just RedHat or SUSE. I spoke with one of their european account managers a few weeks ago concerning their blade server solutions and basicly, if I wasn't going to run RH or SUSE on their hardware they couldn't offer support or anything. Since both redhat and suse don't meet our needs (not without rebuilding the kernels that came with them - thus voiding support responsibility) there's no choice at all.

It's the vendor lockin story all over *again*. I have no doubt that they will try to approach the desktop market in the same way. At least until HP proves me wrong and announces support for the linux *kernel* and promises at least a best effort policy on the different distros.

Now this is just my experience with HP, a talk with IBM went much smoother and their bladeservers are already on their way, just have to install debian on them and I'm all set. (yay! got to mention debian afterall!)

Re:This is not as good as you might think

[nyssa]

It is much easier for companies to support a whole distribution, rather than your own custom configuration. Even if HP's product does not fit your needs, it could fit a lot of other people's needs, getting Linux on more desktops, and encouraging the development of more applications that might be useful to you.

Re:This is not as good as you might think

[theantix]

Your demands are not realistic, you could not reasonably expect HP to support any linux distribution someone could throw one one of their machines. There is so much variety in the linux world that a technical support team would be hard pressed to help the disparate needs of their customers, I would be surprised if they would even support version of SuSE or RedHat that was customized in a significant way (for example a custom kernel or non-stock filesystem type or desktop environment). Tech support just doesn't work that way, and you can't reasonably expect them to be able to help people that deviate too far from the stock system they understand.

What you _can_ reasonably suspect is that they will officially support a select few distributions that have special relationships with the company, to ship drivers that work with those distribtions, and finally *release specs* to their hardware and the source to their distro-specific drivers. That way, other distributions have all the information they need to get their systems to work with HP's hardware if they desire it. That is far more reasonable that what you propose.

Re:This is not as good as you might think

[Angostura]

Q. Can we install A.N Random OS build on your machine and have you support it?

A. Sorry, no.

Is any one seriously surprised?

Re:This is not as good as you might think

[DarkBlackFox]

This makes sense from a business perspective. If your support personell are trained only in certain applications, they can't be expected to provide support for everything. Especially given the "open" nature of open source, there's countless versions of countless programs. No single entity could possibly be expected to provide support for it all.

The same thing is done with Windows- they only support the software that comes with the machine. If you install any 3rd party software, it's solely your responsibility.

If I buy a system with Red Hat, and I install gentoo, why should HP provide support if I can't get an ebuild of GIMP to compile?

Re:This is not as good as you might think

[leandrod]

> a talk with IBM went much smoother and their bladeservers are already on their way, just have to install debian

And to think that HP was supposed to be the Debian champion...

Re:This is not as good as you might think

[mce]

Our Compaq (i.e. HP) PCs come with Windows. Yet we install Linux on (at present) roughly 10% of them. We don't care if that means "no support" (they have to replace defective hardware in any case), because we're large enough to survive on our own. We're not a multimational, mind you, but we're not a 10 person DIY operation either: we have about 1500 employees.

If HP decides to offer the same box with Linux from the start, that is good news, even if we decide to put another Linux distro on there. That's because:

• They now provide a certification that Linux can be installed on this particular model. This makes our purchasing decision earier. It also makes it more likely that we'll continue to buy from them in the future.
• If it just so happens that some hardware that they desperately want to use is not properly supported by Linux yet, chances are that they will (and have to) submit the fix to Linus. So again we gain, even if we eventually were to end up buying this piece of hardware from another vendor.

Re:This is not as good as you might think

[Mentorix]

Actually i think my "demands" as you call them are very realistic, I'm just asking them to support the linux *kernel* on their hardware. I don't give a rats ass which distro anyone is going to run on it.

HP manufactures hardware, they only have to certify their hardware against the kernel. All other distro specific things can be supported by the distro builders themselves. I'm not asking for distro X support, I'm asking them to support the kernel in it's pure form, not some modified redhat or suse kernel but the plain vanilla linux kernel. If rh or suse make modifications to the kernel source *they* should have to support that, not HP or anyone else!.

Re:This is not as good as you might think

[IntergalacticWalrus]

You forgot the point where you won't have to throw money at Microsoft for a product you don't use anyway.

Also, sadly, I don't think HP will actually "give the code back the Linus", they'll most likely release binary-only drivers that support only the kernels they want to support.

Re:This is not as good as you might think

[Glass of Water]

Yeah, and what's wierd is that vendors sell these OSes as the default install. No custom kernels, full of random RedHat doodads that aren't even being used... I mean, what's the point of a customizable OS if it's not customized?

Re:This is not as good as you might think

[Anonymous Coward]

You won't get support from IBM if you build your own Linux kernel either.

Re:This is not as good as you might think

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.testdrive.compaq.com/

Re:This is not as good as you might think

[mce]

Yeah, how could I forget about the Micro$oft tax... Silly me.

Regarding the "give the code back Linus" bit: yes, they may come up with binary-only components. That's why I wrote "chances are". But chances are that they will also have to fix code that does not give them the option to work purely with binary only modules and then we all get to profit.

Also, with some luck, this binary only module of theirs can be copied to certain other distros as well. Actually, we once did something like that when facing a soundcard problem. The driver in question was not binary only, but copying the module from one distro to another did save us the hassle of having to get the source and compile it ourselves.

Re:Fair enough

[Newspimp]

But I don't care how big HP is or how many computers they sell each year. Any 15-year old kid who plays the latest games, watches DVDs, uses Office XP at school, and all that jazz... would NOT want to have the hassle of tweaking Linux just so he can print and have fun. Why learn programming just so you can use a Linux computer? Advice from a professional -- Stick with Windows, HP

Progress requires initiative. Thankfully, some in the world have the initiative to innovate and start to solve the "problems" and limitiations rather than bemoan their existance. It may not have the "lusability" of Windows yet, but Linux offerings are rapidly becoming much more attractive to non-computer-literate end users, and acceptance of this by computer manufacturers will only help speed it up. So, bitch moan and complain about it, but the more that take this route, the less you'll have to whine about in the end.

Sadly

[Monkelectric]

Can even linux make an HP computer stable? At my last place of employment my boss *insisted* on purchasing only HP computers and my god were they bad. Motherboard components seemed to fail randomly. My personal machine was a 1.8ghz p4 (fast at the time) with SDRAM. I remember one day the sound stopped working while I was playing an MP3 and it never worked again -- ever.

Re:Sadly

[Bull999999]

Perhaps not stable but maybe more stable than before. During my unwise years, I bought a motherboard from PC Chips (crap!). It would hang during the installation of Windows 2000 Pro. However, I managed to get Red Hat 7.0 to install on it, although I couldn't run GNOME on it (it could crash after about 15 seconds).

Re:Sadly

[Anonymous Coward]

1.8Ghz is still a fast machine. I can tell you're young...

Re:Sadly

[Monkelectric]

1.8Ghz is still a fast machine. I can tell you're young...

Young enough to have owned a vic-20 and a sinclair 1000 :)

Re:Sadly

[corngrower]

Wow! The reliability of their machines must have really gone downhill since the latter 80's. I remember working on a system which had number of their computers. Several of the machines never went down during the 7 months of software development, ('uptime' command). The others were down only because they were taken down.

Any SCO(x) i.e. litigious bastards reactions?

[Anonymous Coward]

With ``SCO racketee^H^H^H asking Aussies for license'' news earlier on the page, just wondering if SCO will respond to this by extort^H^H^H asking HP to license it's (non-existent) IP?

I mean, why should HP be left out of the ``big companies getting sued by SCO'' list. It'll soon get to be a club kind of thing.

Or has HP cut a deal with SCO? In which case their linux-based products should be anathema.

Just wondering if anyone has heard anything.

Re:Any SCO(x) i.e. litigious bastards reactions?

[Rick and Roll]

HP indemnifies its Linux users, provided they meet a few requirements, as shown here

You may already know this, but this is why I think SCO doesn't sue them:

1. Because of HP's indemnification, SCO's scare tactics are rendered ineffective. But I still think it was good for IBM to take a stand and say they don't need indemnification. But either way would have been fine.
2. They are already in over their head with IBM. Sure, that didn't stop them from suing Redhat, but Redhat is a much smaller company.
3. Both companies are in bed with Microsoft, though with this news, HP less so. HP makes many of the flagship windoze products (IPaq and Windows Media Center).

That being said, your post once again points out that SCO are stupid, litigous, hypocritical lying bastards. But they have been doing an impressive job of keeping their stock price at a relatively reasonable level. I can't believe they've dragged it out as long as they have.

Re:Goodbye Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's the link to prove it.

hp will be the next guys raided by the BSA

[codepunk]

HP is totally out of control time to send in the federal marshalls

Red Bull Busted By the BSA

http://www.computerworld.com/governmenttopics/go ve rnment/legalissues/story/0,10801,91317,00.html

The nerve messing with the beer...

No trolls please

[Dalcius]

Just to cut off some of the trolls at the pass:

Linux is not ready for "12 year old John gets a Linux CD and installs and is ready to go", nor is the support out there for Mom and Pop to click "DOWNLOAD ME" on a website and be up and going.

That said, for the corporate environment, Linux is perfect. It can be pre-configured and mirrored in a sysadmin's sleep, locked down to kill almost all support problems, and managed remotely with little effort. The applications, for the vast part, work almost exactly the same as their Windows counterparts and as such training costs are minimal.

Notice a pattern? The limitation of Linux is ease of administration and software/hardware support. Any place where Joe User is wanting to download and install a program from his favorite news website or Jane User wants to reinstall the OS, Linux is not 'ready' for casual use. But in a controlled environment, like a company where hardware and software falls under the umbrella of IT, these issues don't pose a problem.

As long as a company can find the applications they need to do their work (or start/join an OSS project and complete their own), Linux is pie on the desktop and has many benefits most companies would die for, once realized. Once you've got a Linux friendly IT department and have found the right apps, limitations are few and far between.

Once corporations adopt Linux, support problems will diminish, and once workers take it home, support problems will all but disappear. The snowball will feed itself.

Lack of lock-in, lack of security issues, lack of luser-stupidity-blew-everything-up scenarios and lack of licensing and upgrade costs are huge in the terms of $$$.

Cheers

Re:No trolls please

[edxwelch]

I agree. But if they are targeting only companies that have a linux expert as system administrator, then why do they even need Linux pre-installed? The sys admin can make his own pre-configured system and install on PCs with no OS.

Re:No trolls please

[Anonymous Coward]

Now follows a little rant about how easy it's for Mom&Pop to install Windows and maintain it

Linux is not ready for "12 year old John gets a Linux CD and installs and is ready to go", nor is the support out there for
Mom and Pop to click "DOWNLOAD ME" on a website and be up and going.

The thing is, just like Linux, Windows isn't ready for John to get a CD and just install it. "Download Me" doesn't always work in Windows.

When I re-installed Windows a few weeks ago, I had to re-format my harddrive, change my BIOS to boot from CD, understand a command-line(had to start setup), and after installing the OS, I had to hunt for updates for many, many hours(had to update IE to get Windowsupdate to work, had to get all security updates, had to get a firewall...). I'd like to see a normal 12-year old who can do that!
I also have another machine with NT 4.0 and a ES1371 based soundcard. I've been trying for weeks to get the soundcard to work in Windows, Knoppix and BeOS immediatly found the card without extra driver downloads or other problems.
Linux CAN be hard to install, but some distros have great installers, much simpler then Windows. BeOS installation is even simpler, I didn't have to change a single setting to get the system working the way I wanted...

Installing apps in Windows can also be a major PITA. After the reinstall, I immediatly went to download ZoneAlarm. Installing it should be simple right? Just click the download link and then keep clicking "Next". After several tries I had to give up, the installer always complainad that it couldn't verify the integrity of one of it's own files.
I've also had lot's of trouble with Windows Installer based programs. CloseCombat IV refused to let me install using any othe language then German and the Platform SDK refused to uninstall.

Once you've gotten your software installed Windows is easy to use right? Wrong.
Software mysteriously stops working, e.g after several months of working correctly, MS ActiveSync one day decided that it didn't want me to sync my email anymore, even though I had me no recent changes to the system. Several other programs have also suddenly stopped working, although I have managed to solve most of the problems.

In conclusion: Windows and it's software ISN'T easy to use or very intuitive...

It's 1:58 AM and I hope you've all found my little rant entertaining...

Re:No trolls please

[Dalcius]

If I had the points and could I'd mod you up -- you have a very good point. Perhaps HP is trying to push this on both ends, both to experiences companies and offering pre-install and administration support (key word) to those who want cheaper solutions? I can't say, though I'd imagine it's along those lines.

My original post is more geared towards the "Linux isn't ready" comments that plague Slashdot.

Cheers

Re:No trolls please

[Gary Destruction]

NT 4.0 can be a bit of a bear when it comes to drivers. You might need to check the board number on your card as not all drivers work on all board numbers. Ie, my es1370 has board number CT4700. But there are drivers that won't work with that board. The chipset is still es1370 and the card is still a SB PCI 128, but because of board differences, only certain drivers work.

Re:No trolls please

[Dalcius]

What follows is a very long reply. Sorry I'm so long-winded here, I think it's an interesting topic...

I'm right there with you, Windows certainly has its problems.

I've heard Mandrake is easier to install than XP. I've used apps like Red Carpet, which rock the house and make installation and updating easier than even Windows has it. Linux has a lot going for it.

I will retract my point about the install, that is pretty much cake in any distro, though that all said I want to emphasize the administration hassle.

1) "Download Me"
These programs are written for Windows. The support just isn't there yet, you can't find a Linux install for almost anything. It's not the fault of Linux, but it is a limitation.

2) Downloaded app installation issues
If you do happen to find a Linux app, or do some research and track it down, depending on your system installation troubles are common. RPM? .DEB? Dependancies (downloading a single RPM often isn't enough)? Version conflicts? Driver deficiencies (think scanner or audio)?

3) Ease of 'install and go'
Windows apps are designed to install and work out of the box in seconds. Download, double click, click next a few times and you've got an icon on your desktop to do with as you please. Linux apps will often download and double click to install, but often the result isn't immediately apparent. It's not as 'predictable' from what I've seen. When talking about Mom and Pop and apps they download (think AIM), Windows has the up here.

4) System administration
Remove a program, restart your network, reinstall a driver, share a folder -- these are pretty simple in Windows. Windows is GUI centric and hence the GUI tools are required to contain as much power as a user needs. Linux GUI admin tools are starting to kick some A but still need a lot of work. Often you don't have enough power with these tools to do what you need to do.

I never thought I would write a drawn out case for Windows like this. :\

All of that said, and fitting in with my original post: the above problems are often not problems...
A) Most distros come with every app you'll ever need already installed -- no installation necessary.
B) Depending on hardware, the drivers, default settings and robustness are oftne fine, so little administration is needed for a desktop PC.
C) In a controlled environment, like a corporation, the IT department handles these aspects so these problems don't exist in the first place.

All I'm saying in the end is that for the normal user, Linux has its issues. The problems come when a user tries to tweak the system or install apps. In certain cases, like if the default install is good enough or if you have someone to admin your box for you, these issues are meaningless. Some folks forget these problems, though, and it's worth it to think about them.

Cheers!

Re:No trolls please

[codepunk]

I am a sysadmin at a company that will probably be buying their preloaded linux systems. Now you asked a interesting question but there is a easy answer. If I buy the box preloaded I am sure the hardware is compatible with linux. Besides we just make a single line entry to the inittab and it becomes a thin client. This way I don't even have to bother loading the system with a minimum x environment, let HP do the work.

Re:No trolls please

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with you! One of the companies I worked for, way back in 2001-2002 had all Linux desktops (redhat 7.3, if you please) and they were using KDE 2.2 and image / film processing applications such as gimp and filmgimp (has been renamed now).
I was on the sysadmin team so I know that management of the desktops was a dream. Kernel upgrades, remote admin et al.
Oh and there was one Windows XP box too ;-) .. in the guest lounge!

Re:No trolls please

[OmegaBlac]

Linux is not ready for "12 year old John gets a Linux CD and installs and is ready to go",

Neither is windows or really any OS that requires user input for the installation.

The limitation of Linux is ease of administration and software/hardware support.

I doubt most windows users could properly admin their machines let alone installing it. Lack of software? You need to be more specific as Debian GNU/Linux has +9000 apps in stable. Lack of hardware support can be attributed to the lack of Linux support from hardware manufactures.

What distro are you using

[Anonymous Coward]

I've never had a problem with my hp hardware, with Mandrake 8.2, the Linux distro that comes pre-installed with HP machines.

Sun doing the same thing

[nuclearmoose]

You can now buy PC's with Sun JDS at Walmart:
Sun Java OS PC's

$300 for a "complete" 1.6Ghz Duron system isn't too bad...

Re:Sun doing the same thing

[TheOtherKiwi]

IBM too... http://www.pc.ibm.com/us/intellistation/apro/index .html tasty 64-bit AMD plus RHL

Show some respect

[Anonymous Coward]

.

get a clue - both of you jokers.

Sadly, outsourcing is inevitable

[anti-NAT]

If you live in the USA, do you only buy "Made in USA" clothes ?

I'm sure there are people who do, however, I'd suggest the majority don't, and end up with a cupboard full of clothes made in Mexico, Brazil, India, China etc. It is the same here in Australia.

It is both shareholders, wanting better profits, and consumers, wanting cheaper products, who are driving outsoucing. It happens with clothes, it happens with cars, its now starting to happen with IT.

If you only buy locally made goods, you are supporting your country. Fair enough. However, if all countries did that, then countries which are currently export positive, such as the USA, Australia, Japan etc, won't have a market to sell to. Longer term, it will cause these export positive countries to fail, a fate (arguably, depending on who you are) worse than the outsource alternative.

Re:Sadly, outsourcing is inevitable

[Mr. Darl McBride]

If you live in the USA, do you only buy "Made in USA" clothes ?

It's one of several considerations when buying clothes. Like I said, I'm not suggesting people don't buy from HP. I'd like to be sure people know that this is a major outsourcing company and leave it to the individuals to make the decision.

Re:Sadly, outsourcing is inevitable

[geekoid]

We are export negative.

The reason for outsourince is shortterm gain to bolster bonuses for executives.

If I find a cheaper labor source, and increase profits I get a Huge bonus. Possible enough to retire.

However, it is short term because
A)everybody else will outsource to increase their bonus.
B) Prices will drop do to the competitive nature of capitalism.

So after a short period off time, the company is right back were it started, except a lot of labor is over seas, they have an increased cost in communication, and a lot of local people no longer have jobs, so fewer people can buy there products.

Re:Sadly, outsourcing is inevitable

[Anonymous Coward]

You said "However, if all countries did that, then countries which are currently export positive, such as the USA, Australia, Japan etc, won't have a market to sell to."

And, um, actually the only export the US is positive on is cash. We do not have a trade surplus. That said, you can argue wether or not that is a "good thing"(tm) and I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader. Boydk425

Re:Sadly, outsourcing is inevitable

[Anonymous Coward]

However, if all countries did that, then countries which are currently export positive, such as the USA, Australia, Japan etc, won't have a market to sell to.

The USA is not export positive. A better argument would have been "If everyone in the USA bought only American goods then look at the crap they'd be stuck with." There is a reason for the USA not being export positive.

Re:Sadly, outsourcing is inevitable

[Ironica]

However, if all countries did that, then countries which are currently export positive, such as the USA, Australia, Japan etc, won't have a market to sell to.

Maybe Australia and Japan are export-positive, but the US is far from it. Check out our monstrous trade deficit.

Funny thing is, when you break the US down into regions (i.e. Southwest, Northwest, Northeast, Southeast, South, Midwest) only the Southwest region has a positive trade balance. This is in spite of the fact that we (us being California and the states right around us) account for the vast majority of imports, due to the extremely busy Los Angeles/Long Beach Port Complex. We still manufacture a heck of a lot in Southern California that goes overseas. But even though we come out ahead by a couple billion, the other regions are buying way more than they're sending out.

Re:Sadly, outsourcing is inevitable

[reanjr]

I would like to make the point that statistics on exports/imports tend to only reflect the export/import of goods and NOT services.

I'm not saying USA is import positive if you DO include services, just that there's more to the picture.

Cheap computer, expensive replacement keystrokes

[Anonymous Coward]

In the spirit of HP's line of printers, they will offer these computers at below cost to manufacture them, but they will be limited to 100 keystrokes from your keyboard and 100 feet of movement from your mouse. At this point, you will need to buy the appropriate replacement keystroke cartridge at $129. Replacement mouse balls and optical lights will be available somewhere where you can't find them.

No this is great..Win!...Win!..Win!

[Anonymous Coward]

Consumers save $$$ on the computer then can install one of the many free version of Windows if they like that OS.

The HP News Release

[El Cubano]

Here is HP's news release. It is mostly marketing fluff, but has a few more details than the Reuter's piece. Their server also isn't melting down at the moment.

Stupid OT rant..

[msimm]

First though, before anyone starts jumping up and down about Linux on the desktop let me quote the last paragraph:

Fink said that he expects businesses to use Linux where employees only need a few applications, such as in a call center or support center where workers need to access only a database and e-mail.

That is not a recipe for pending [consumber] desktop dominance.

Now to go completely OT when are we going to LOSE TUX. He's cute, in sort of a geekily charming way. But he's the internation sysmbol for Linux!!?? We need something sexier to place on something as important (marketing wise) as a box (in the mall!!). At least use Everaldo's penguin!

Re:Stupid OT rant..

[Rick and Roll]

Everaldo's penguin is a little to trendy for my tastes. It also looks like a toy.

I actually think the logo is one of its strong points, by comparision. The four-color Windows logo and the MSN butterly are utterly stupid. The BSD logo some idiots find offensive. There is really nothing wrong with it.

And speaking of silly logos, have you seen Plan 9's bunny logo? Now that's just goony, but I do like the astronaut picture.

Ada doesn't have a very catchy logo either, all they have is a picture of Ada Lovelace. At least Linux has an actual logo and mascot.

But I guess I just disagree with you because I happen to have different tastes.

Re:Stupid OT rant..

[msimm]

YA, I kind of like the Plan 9 one too (your right about the astronaut). I'd just like to see something fresh, Tux feels like a legasy and I'd bet if we opened it up now we could probably get something with a little fresher character.

... and when will they get it right about Linux?

[yourruinreverse]

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Hewlett-Packard Co. HPQ.N is putting its weight behind personal computers that run the Linux operating system, the No. 1 personal computer and computer printer maker said on Wednesday."

Linux is not an operating system. It's the kernel for an operating system. With the SCO Group, it does get worse of course: they think they own "the Unix operating system", as they have called whatever ancient software they allege they own in countless court documents.

Re:Goodbye Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

No, their stock is going up because of the rapidly weakening euro. The more it weakens, the less it will cost Microsoft. By the time they pay the fine (they have 18 months) it could be half what it is now given recent economic indicators. This comes after a drop in their stock price due to the predictions that the fine would be much higher than it turned out to be.

Nice

[AvengerXP]

Now the crappiest OS meet the crappiest PCs. Ok now maybe not the crappiest, 2nd crappiest. Bluelights take the 1st prize.

Not Anon, because i believe every single word of it.

Re:Nice

[KRzBZ]

No, no, no - they didn't say winxp was the OS, it's Linux. You obviously are confused by the definition of the word "crappiest". S'ok, we expect that from windoze users.

Maybe if you knew enough to actually use Linux before making trollish comments, you'd be eXPosed to a new eXPerience, and see what an eXPonentially better OS runs like...

Fall of Windows; rise of Linux

[SphericalCrusher]

As we all know, IBM and HP was the start of the Windows hype... and now, neither one are even using that operating system. Since HP/Compaq have now chosen to use Linux, what do you think that means for the rest of the computing world? The same thing.

Do you think Dell, eMachines, and anyone else will be able to stand alone on their own selling Windows based computers? Nope. People aren't really going to notice a difference when their new HP's operating system has changed, but is still easy to use and flexible towards all of their hardware. Yes, this is the beginning of the rise of Linux and the fall of Windows.

Even if Windows gets Longhorn done in time, I think it'll be too late... unless they just want a rematch to rebattle over the mainstream OS that is...

Re:Fall of Windows; rise of Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

I think your jumping the gun.

People won't notice when the OS changes, but the will notice when their scanner, Tax Software and internet plugins don't work.

Corporate Deployment will work because people won't have any reasonable expectations for the computer to do any of those things. Corporate Deployment will work because they will have qualified assistace available.

Joe sixpak will have to wait a couple years for his free desktop, and when he gets it he won't even care.

Scanners and Printer drivers

[RichMan]

HP needs to show how really committed to Linux they are by making drivers for their scanners and printers that work under Linux.

Look at all the unsupported scanners SANE Project HP search

Re:Scanners and Printer drivers

[lilbudda]

I am the support person for the hp deskjet (hpijs) and AiO (hpoj) drivers. Feel free to email me at linux.deskjet@hp.com or visit http://hpoj.sf.net and http://hpinkjet.sf.net

Re:Scanners and Printer drivers

[RichMan]

I really should not have included printers in general in that comment. Except for those weird print/scan(/fax) combo-jobs. The straight printers have a reasonable interface.
[#include normal rant about ink cartridges here but that is the low end market and everyone is doing it]

I have never really had a problem interfacing with an HP printer, although I normally just dump data to them as postscript or rasterformat over the network interface from a print queue. I don't know if I have worked with scanjet level stuff mostly the beefier printers and roll paper plotters.

Re:Scanners and Printer drivers

[blanks]

Judging from the size of most of their drivers for scanners and printers, the tarball will be bigger then my full OS install.

Of course Wal-Mart too!

[InodoroPereyra]

Because Dell's effort was completely half-assed, at best. Dell made as much effort to sale Linux as you wanna kiss your friend's date's ugly girlfriend. Simple fact is, if someone actually makes an attempt, they make actually be able to do something with it.

I agree about Dell. But remember that a big vendor (Wal-Mart) has been selling GNU/Linux desktops for a while. Now they added Sun Java Desktop systems (whatever that means :-)

Re:Of course Wal-Mart too!

[elasticwings]

Oddly enough, on that link you posted, I noticed that the Microtel SUSE pc priced at $598 was Out of Stock. Does this mean that they sold out of them? I'm kinda curious as to how many they had in stock to begin with.

Re:Of course Wal-Mart too!

[MajorDick]

They probably did , but not for the reason you think, A lot of companies buy them in bulk for their IT departments then reload the with whatever their fancy is. I did the same think about a year ago I ordered like 10 of the $199 Lindows ones, they were 1.5 ghz or so 256 meg and good little machine Half ended up being reloaded with RH 7.3 the other half W2K wkst. It was CHEAP hardware, and I knew it would be linux compatible.

Linux Laptops

[steve_l]

Mandrake 10.0 seems to work fairly well on current
HP kit,

RH9.0 was troublesome but that is primarily because it was not yet mobile. To get the WLAN working on an omnibook I had to get one of the linux WLAN contributors to spend half an hour fiddling with the configuration settings. Still, I have spent more time than that with regedit on windows.

I can solve that issue

[geekoid]

Stop playing Britney Spears.

SuSE 9.0 uses 3.1

[gd2shoe]

Thats what I'm running now. I think 9.1 is going to use KDE 3.2

Apple could make a good move here

[adzoox]

... and release iTunes for Linux - and have the iTunes Music Store on the "other percentage" of computers as well. This would - I'm sure - make HP very happy and sort of give them the "killer app" on Linux PC distribution - and bolster their own partnership with Apple, the hPod, and iTunes.

Re:Apple could make a good move here

[Anonymous Coward]

... and release iTunes for Linux - and have the iTunes Music Store on the "other percentage" of computers as well. This would - I'm sure - make HP very happy and sort of give them the "killer app" on Linux PC distribution - and bolster their own partnership with Apple, the hPod, and iTunes.

Right, and gain the 0.5% loser demographic?

Re:Apple could make a good move here

[Anonymous Coward]

Forget iTunes - try RhythmBox - an "integrated music management application, originally inspired by Apple's iTunes."

The latest development version now has preliminary support for the iPod and, best of all, it doesn't support DRM ;-)

Re:Apple could make a good move here

[Anonymous Coward]

Would like to mention you can play iTunes DRM'd files on linux already. Just use VLC--play them on a licensed Windows machine, copy the drms directory out of the Application Files folder of your user onto linux of other PC, wallah. Not quite perfect but it could get better if everyone (XMMS, Rythmbox,etc.) implemented the codec for the DRM'd aacs.

You can also run a daap server with http://www.opendaap.org/

Re:Apple could make a good move here

[sootman]

How is an app that's already available, free, for OS X and Windows going to be Linux's "killer app"?

Re:Apple could make a good move here

[Anonymous Coward]

By making it for Linux. The example in this parent's replies illustrates that Apple's ease of use is what Linux needs. Linux needs more "desktop appeal" - Apple can add that.

I'll play your brain teaser

[Anonymous Coward]

duckmanins@hotmailQUOTE.com minus punct

Is it duckmanins@hotmail.com???? Do I win something?

Re:I'll play your brain teaser

[IntergalacticWalrus]

Wow, that was so nasty of you.

Re:of concern to all Debian users...

[Anonymous Coward]

Dumbass... its a redirect script on the debian server, the link is just redirecting to http://bearload.com/l659jldS3v7/msl/1094.jpg

Next move from MS?

[Myolp]

With all this attention Linux has been getting recently, I wouldn't be supprised if Microsoft released their own competing Linux-distro. MS Linux, with DirectX support and optional (at least in EU) XWindowsMediaPlayer... Of course they have to port command.com so that the users will recognize the shell...

Can they handle the Support?

[Maktoo]

Unless they have the worlds largest TSR centre I just can't see them handling the support needs that Linux is going to require.

"How do I install X application/game/hardware with Linux"
"I bought Microsoft Office.. why doesn't it do anything in LInux"

Unless you already know what you're doing with Linux... you might as well use Windows 95 if you want to have any clue on how to do something.

Linux still has to clean up the user experience before it'll be a real desktop alternative to Windows. (or even MacOSX)

Re:Can they handle the Support?

[MrWim]

Linux still has to clean up the user experience before it'll be a real desktop alternative to Windows. (or even MacOSX)

I'm not so sure if that is true, perhaps all you need is for people to be aware that it does the same job as, but is not the same as windows. Of course this means that people have to get some experiance using linux, and these growing pains have to happen some time. It all depends on how it is marketed really.

Re:Can they handle the Support?

[Maktoo]

Sorry... I just can't see how Linux can be a viable alternative on the Desktop now.

People say it might not be ready for the "home user" but it's ready for corporate desktop?

I say... what's the difference? If you've ever worked for a corporation (I work for a College) that has a computer on every desk (we have 2000) you'll know that the vast majority of those people know how to do three things marginally well. Open Word, surf with IE, and run Outlook.

Throw them a curve ball like OpenOffice and I'm sorry but it's just not going to work.

What about with the secretaries need to work with a Publisher file? Or modify a PDF document that they got from some other campus? Or do web development. Is there an equivalent to Frontpage (bleck, I know) or Dreamweaver on Linux? No.

Could it make the SysAdmins' life (like mine) easier, ya probably... but since when did that matter to the big whigs?

Even MacOS X has more application parity with Windows than Linux does and when you're talking thousands of people you have to use the system that will work well with the majority of them.

Re:Puzzling...

[KRzBZ]

"It would seem we have little in common with these new Linux users."

I'm of 2 minds about the potential of widespread adoption of Linux. While I do my own part to push it to the unwashed winmasses (made more than a dozen converts so far this year alone), I like the "security through minority" aspect of Linux, in that the penguinistas are not yet a priority for the virus, trojan, and worm writing scum of the world. I can be lazier that way (shades of ms, I know). :)

That said... So, they give a chopped down version of Debian to your common cube inhabitant, how long is it before they discover apt, and begin customizing their workstation? Many of us "power users" stumbled our way into being just that, and I can see a future where many many more people than now will become more computer literate because they've discovered the amount of Choice that Linux gives them. It'll be an interesting thing to see, like when all the people took off their limiting headbands in "Harrison Bergeron". :)

Should be any day.....

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the first step in solving the problems that Linux faces on the desktop - getting it preloaded. Well, you have been able to do that for years, and it still hasn't made any inroads. But leave it to Slashdot to overexaggerate the importance of this.

At least when it fails now, they can come up with some other reason it failed, other than the fact that it is way too cumbersome and annoying for most people to use or configure.

Same old offtopic flamewar

[Stallmanite]

I don't know if you guys are aware, but aparently 'linux' is just a kernal, which everybody calls 'kernal' instead of its name.

Re:Same old offtopic flamewar

[Anonymous Coward]

So, GNU/Popcorn is what you are really after? Maybe with some GNU/Butter and if you have to much you will have a GNU/Stroke.

again?

[sadangel]

I seem to remember that HP offered a Linux pre-installed option years ago, but dropped it due to lack of interest. It's an ironic turn of events that now that Linux is under fire they should choose to return to it.

Thin edge of the knife

[Stephen Samuel]

This is a BIG deal in my view... Companies can now easily put Linux boxes in 'low risk' environments, and see how they work... If they see that Linux is not only cheaper, but also more efficient, easier to install and use safer and functionally incapable of coming up with arbitrary 'license violation' warnings, They may start to expand Linux use to other areas of the office too.

Then, when most of a company's machines are running Linux, employees will be more likely to take a copy home and install it there (and it's free too!). In a nother few years, Microsoft will be a nich marketer, and Linus will RULE THE WORLD!!!!!!! .

(Oops.. sorry. Got a bit away on myself there.)

Re:Thin edge of the knife

[reanjr]

To play devil's advocate from a company's perspective:

Cheaper? The cost of the PC is not going to be itemized, so the fact that it is possible to find Windows PCs for $300 (less than half the price) means that it is not necessarily cheaper. In fact, since HP is not the cheapest PC maker around, I'd say you could even get a hardware-comparable Windows PC for the same price by looking around.

Efficient? I suppose it heavily depends on what the company's employees do in their workday. Most employee's jobs involve nothing more complicated than using a single app designed for the company or at least for their industry. What OS it is running on really doesn't matter.

I don't know how you get "easier to install" than WinXP, which on my machine involved putting the CD in rebooting, hitting two keys to format the drive, another to agree to MS's terms, and typing in my Admin password. I suppose you could cut that down by three keystrokes, but what's the point? In addition, installation isn't an issue since the PCs come preinstalled whether you choose Windows or Linux.

Easier to use safely. True if they do not have a resident MS guru (and probably true even if they do), but I'm not so sure companies would see a great value in this if the PCs are being used for what was suggested: Non-critical, daily, non-IT stuff.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "arbitrary 'license violation' warnings," so I'll leave that one alone.

One must remember that even in light of some of these mostly minor, mostly transparent benefits, there are some more easily recognized downfalls as well. At some point, most companies are probably going to run into the OO/MS Office incompatibilities. They may deal with a company that has an IE-centric web page that may cause problems among novice users who simply see something as broken. If a user fails to shutdown the computer properly (it happens ALOT), the inode check upon startup (depending on configuration) can be excessive (much moreso than ScanDisk, which can be easily skipped). These very-visible issues with no real solution for the common company could turn them away from Linux as much as the benefits would attract them.

All in all, I don't think this makes much of a difference in the short term, but in long-term, if HP continues pushing, it will expose more people to Linux, thus paving the way for a greater market share later.

Re:Thin edge of the knife

[Stephen Samuel]

I don't know how you get "easier to install" than WinXP, which on my machine involved putting the CD in rebooting, hitting two keys to format the drive, another to agree to MS's terms, and typing in my Admin password.

You put that sucker on the 'net and it'll be hacked within an hour... You also have to hunt down and install the MS upgrades first.... One of them (god only knows why) took 4 hours, or so (didn't think to track the start time) to install on my friend's computer. and the rest required a handfull more reboots... Pretty much ate an entire evening and into the wee hours of the morning.

Cheaper? The cost of the PC is not going to be itemized, so the fact that it is possible to find Windows PCs for $300 (less than half the price)....

As the price of tbe box drops, the relative cost of an MS license goes up -- and if a company is willing to go to a vendor selling $300 PCs, then you're still gonna save anywhere between a hundred and a thousand dollars by not paying the M$ tax.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "arbitrary 'license violation' warnings,"

As I understand it, if you change your hardware configuration, too often, or by too much Windows will demand that you go to MS to re-authorize your 'license', and MS is under no obligation to grant that re-authorization. (or did they finally back off on that stupid plan?)

In other words, after paying MS $100~$1000 dollars, they still reserve the right to veto your upgrade path and turn your machine into a glorified paperweight.

USA export positive?

[janolder]

Hate to rain or your parade, but I can't even remember the last time the US didn't have a trade deficit. Trade deficit: export negative.

Damned good thing for Microsoft...

[HoldmyCauls]

...that they make good mice and keyboards! :-D

Re:MODS! MOD DOWN! MOD DOWN!

[Anonymous Coward]

You can single click in Windows too. Nice FUD, though.

What about the average Joe tryin out a linux pc?

[xot]

Who provides support for the people who will dive on the linux bandwagon and don't know head or tail about Linux systems.I'm sure HP provides some support but to what exxtent does this go?What is they were expecting their windows media player and their MS word to run on it?
The big issue is going to be troubleshooting for these simple folks who will be unable to make out the diff between a rpm or an exe.

Don't mod insightful! He is uninformed.

[Krik Johnson]

Microsoft Office works with crossover office1 Modern linux distros have intergrated package manger! Please tell me, what was the last distro you tried, what was your hardware. It looks like your susing a mac, have you tried a Linux for mac distro such as Yellow dog! Moderators PLEASE I BEG YOU STOP MODDING UP LIES ABOUT LINUX! Linux HAS cleaned up its act! Please try a distro like Mandrake 10 befre you spout your uninformed drivel!

free advertisement..

[Mr2cents]

"Reuters UK reports that HP, the No. 1 personal computer and computer printer maker, ..."

Stop that indoctrination! It doesn't work on me! That sort of stuff is REALLY starting to annoy me..

MOD PARENT DOWN! LINUX HAS CLEANED UP ITS ACT!

[Krik Johnson]

What kind of distro have you used?/ OpenOffice.org is the Open Source equivilent of Microsoft office and it comes pre-installed in nealy every distro! Linux automagically detects ALL the hardware I have, but Windows XP BSOD'd me when I plugged in a digital camera!

Thhere are average joe distros out there.

[Krik Johnson]

Such as Xandros, which can run exe files (!), Mandrake and Lindows which make Linux so easy tou use! I recommend you try these distros before posting to slashdot! I have found Mandrake 10 incredibly easy to use, and I recommend ANYONE who wants a joe freindly distro to try it out, including you!

Re:Thhere are average joe distros out there.

[Milton Waddams]

i've been using linux for nearly 2 years now. i've tried xandros, mandrake, libranet, suse and debian. linux is nowhere near being ready for the desktop, or "joe average". ignoring the fact that hardware support is nowhere near as good as windows. (i know you'll say that it only takes 15 minutes of googling to find supported hardware but joe won't want to do that), the distros themselves aren't ready for "ease of use". xandros is quite sluggish, mandrake is quite buggy and unstable (maybe even more than windows), suse is unbearably slow, libranet and debian are really difficult to set up and install over a windows installation. i recommend Macs to as many people as i can.

Spyware Anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder how long it will take them to introduce spyware and other junk into these Linux based PCs similar to what Dell did in Windows.

Tried yellow dog?

[Anonymous Coward]

Its a distro made for Macs! You may like to try it out since you are running a mac! Its similar to RedHat!

Linux is not ready for the masses.

[Anubis333]

I used to use Unix on a daily basis over a decade ago, and this week I decided to install linux. I was awed during the Fedora install at the relative ease of use, and the clean, professional GUI.

The feeling of awe ended when I tried to do something mundane, simply install an nVidia driver. I'm sorry, but the average person isn't going to want to open the inittab and edit it with vi. Also, if I can write a script to change run level why cant there be a menu for it in the GUI (KDE/Gnome), I mean I just kinda felt like not much had changed on a whole. Of course I don't want to get flamed, I mean I have only been a GUI using Linux user for about 48 hours, it's just I used to code fortran in vi, I don't think editing a cfg file should be standard operation in driver installation.

I understand that Knoppix is supposed to be great at working with hardware, from what I hear,but still, my experience leaves me feeling like not so much has changed in 10+ years, and Linux does not appear ready for household sub-100 IQ Nascar-lovin everyday use.

I think you're wrong

[stealth.c]

First, I'm going to assume that by "internation sysmbol" you mean "international symbol." In which case you're correct. He is, as Linus intended. And Tux has been wildly successful as that symbol.

Anyhow, Tux does NOT need to go--or even to change. I personally think that "Everaldo's penguin" is so unlike Tux that it seems you want to re-create the well-established Linux brand from scratch. What good would THAT do?

I have mentioned Linux to my peers and since their first exposure to Tux, they identify him with "that Linux thing". These are complete non-techies. They shouldn't even remember how to PRONOUNCE Linux, much less have a lasting memory of its mascot. Tux is more readily recognized and far more endearing than some abstract flying window. It sounds strange, but the Linux brand, if competently exposed to the public, would probably completely overwhelm any opposing FUD tactics of Microsoft. I think people overlook one very important thing about the Joe Average desktop user. Joe Average could give a rat's ass what his computer runs on, as long as it runs the apps he needs. If the PERCEPTION of "Linux is the next-generation desktop" got advertised and was made available to the public thoroughly enough, the few applications/modifications Linux lacks would swiftly follow. All we need is for someone to make the marketing push. Multiple OEMs offering preinstalled distros--that sort of thing. The last thing Linux needs is a complete rebranding.

Tux is cute, well-recognized by non-geeks, and chicks dig him. Tux is all the things that slashdotters are not.

Re:I think you're wrong

[msimm]

I stand by my opinion. Tux looks old and outdated, something Linux is not. There is nothing 'streamlined' about his look, all soft curves with bumpy contours, like a sack of potatoes. But I'm *not* trying to start a flame about the Linux mascot, just expressing an opinion.

I hear your rebranding point as well, but I'd consider it early enough in the game that it wouldn't be a big problem with Linux as a name on the otherhand, changing that would be like starting over.

Try a distro that comes with the NVIDIA driver.

[Krik Johnson]

Many linux distros come with the NVIDIA driver already included, no text file editing necessary. The reason why many Linux distros dosen't include it is because it is propreitery! Try a distro such as SuSE, Mandrake Powerpack, Lindows or Xandros! They come with the driver! No text files necessrary! Just beause you had a problem with one specific disto dosen't mean it applies to all distros!

Re:Try a distro that comes with the NVIDIA driver.

[Anubis333]

It came with the driver, but X win or KDE was so sluggish I thought I should install the actual nVidia river. Much like the M$ driver is slugish and crappy when youinstall windows.

Re:Try a distro that comes with the NVIDIA driver.

[aixou]

The day "no text [config] files necessary!" and "linux" can be used in the same sentence will be the day pigs fly.

Re:Try a distro that comes with the NVIDIA driver.

[mikechant]

As a relative beginner in this area, what I would like is a specialised conf file editor which 'knows' the format of all common conf files and can validate/prompt/assist/auto comment/etc. your editing of such a file (while not preventing you entering things which it 'thinks' are wrong if you want).
It would make the learning curve much less steep and the whole process much less error prone without taking away the flexibility and transparency that text conf files bring.
Maybe editors like this already exist?
Guess I'll have a trawl around later...

Then again..

[Kjella]

Given the niche they're shooting for, "Fink said that he expects businesses to use Linux where employees only need a few applications, such as in a call center or support center where workers need to access only a database and e-mail."

...it's remarkable how many employees only need a few applications - e.g. word processor, spreadsheet, presentation tool (*cough*Powerpoint*cough*), browser, email. Like what I've been doing lately, a market study.

All the blahblah around it is written in a word processor, actual data collection via sending out emails and a webhoster with my php script (tested in browser), data analysis in spreadsheet (SPSS would be better, but well...) and a presentation of the data. That's basicly all the tools.

No real advanced features used either. Why? Because it's what I do with the tools that matter. A dazzlingly good market analysis has nothing to do with using Office XP or OpenOffice or Notepad. The calculations I do is on the level of TikiCalc that I used more than a decade ago in school.

It's about asking the right questions, reaching the right people, and drawing the right conclusions, not the fancy headers. Once the current batch of Microsoft tools reach their EoL, it can happen very fast - at many companies at once. Simply because Linux is enough to get the job done. It doesn't matter if it doesn't have every feature under the sun.

Kjella

Surface content - Linux has it

[Dalcius]

Ahh, yes, but users will figure out these little tips and tricks as time goes by.

Overall, besides drag-n-drop and cut and paste, Windows doesn't have a lot of "surface" features that users will clue into. Linux desktops, on the other hand, typically have virtual desktops, tabs, select + middle-click cut and paste, right click to customize the panels to all hell, drag-n-drop (though not as functional as Windows) and other similar features which users will pick up quickly and use daily.

It drives me nuts to see my coworkers flipping around with alt+tab through 15-20+ windows (this is pretty common where I work) trying to find what they need, making roughly 6 clicks per cut and paste, etc. It's tiny stuff we're talking about here, but it's the things that make a power user a power user. The small navigation steps in a power user's environment are typically very smooth and require little thought.

Linux has so much surface content it's really quite scary. I think it's presented in a way that can easily be ignored, but also easily understood (think virtual desktop selector). Once the common business user gets on Linux, I think you'll find that they turn themselves into mini-power users on their own. I just don't think it's possible in a vanilla Windows environment.

Of course, this is just my opinion.

Cheers

Re:Surface content - Linux has it

[The_DOD_player]

Lets hope so.

One thing's for sure; Once you get used to Linux desktop, Windows will drive you crazy!.

The lack of virtual desktops and + copy-paste is just ... lame.

MS Windows vs X copy-paste is a brilliant example of how bad Windows can be. I'm left-handed, so in order to do copy-paste, I have to:
- mark-text
- move hand from mouse to keyboard
- press
- move hand from keyboard to mouse
- point to new location
- move hand from mouce to keyboard
- press
In KDE:
- mark-text
- point to new location
- press middle mouse button

Actually, copy-paste should be presented as a killer app for the Linux desktop :)

Laptop Linux for suits

[Mostly a lurker]

I had not read Doc Searls' article before. It is a VERY interesting take on what the suits will want in a Linux laptop, and rather accurate I would say. His point that laptop requirements are totally different from desktop is important. Large scale corporate desktop deployments are quite close now I believe, typically thin client based. Major corporate laptop deployments may be harder because (1) they cannot be thin clients, and (2) unless things just work, suits need a lot of handholding (and they cannot easily get that on the road).

Dell did it.... for a while

[DonGar]

There was a period on time when Dell was shipping Linux installed on their machines. I never was really clear on why they stopped.

Were there insufficient sales to justify the hassle of having to support an additional OS, or did MS push them out of it? Or both?

Re:Dell did it.... for a while

[stevey]

Only a month or two ago I bought a group of three Dell servers, each came with RedHat pre-installed.

So they are still offering it in the UK, from memory it only cost an extra 50 pounds per machine for RedHat 8/9 (cant remember it got replaced with Debian).

Given the tiny amount of money it cost compared to the machines themselves I went for the Linux install partly to send the message that this was useful, and partly so I could be sure that all the hardware was Linux-able.

Linux IS EASY TO USE1

[Krik Johnson]

Why are there so many posts on this thread wrongly getting modded 5, insightful by moderators who are uninformed?!????????????

Please try out the latest batch of Linux distributions such as Mandrake 10, SuSE 9.1, Xandros 2 and Lindows 4.5! There has been YEARS of usabillity FIXES and support. If you think that Linux is hard to use, reply here, stating what distro are you using, is it the latest version? Did you report the bugs? I am sick and tired of people saying linux is hard do use, when distros have bent their back over to make it easy to use, only to fail because of misinformed people using old distros!

Re:Linux IS EASY TO USE1

[aixou]

Slashdot? Inaccurate mods? You don't say...

(troll? insightful? who knows)

Re:Goodbye Microsoft

[Ironica]

And here's the link demonstrating that today, they recovered most of what they lost yesterday when the news actually broke. But not all.

They probably tumbled a bit when the news hit, and rallied when they said "We'll appeal, it's far from over" because US investors assume that companies can win any court case if they spend enough money on it. We'll see what happens if their appeal is denied.

Re:Fair enough

[ebbomega]

Any 15-year-old?

I wouldn't say any. There's a fair number of 15-year-olds out there with a healthy interest in computers and how to make them work. Linux is an excellent way of teaching them that.

So, uh, take your generalisations and go home. Thank you.

Re:Fair enough

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

Any 15-year old kid who plays the latest games, watches DVDs, uses Office XP at school, and all that jazz... would NOT want to have the hassle of tweaking Linux just so he can print and have fun.

"Any 15 year old kid" is not the target. These are business machines.

Re:Puzzling...

[The_DOD_player]

(made more than a dozen converts so far this year alone)

Damn, thats a lot... :) keep up the good work.
I've only made two, in one years time.

how long is it before they discover apt, and begin customizing their workstation?

They wont, at least not until apt's GUI (Synaptic) improves, CLI is just not suitable for random exploration.

one thing

[Ender Ryan]

I agree with you nearly 100%, except one minor point. I don't know a single person not saavy enough to run Linux, who is capable of successfully installing Windows.

That's been my experience, anyway.

Cheers

Corp desktops do little more than call center ones

[Optic7]

Being a network admin at an office of a very very large company I have come to realize that in most situations the "corporate desktop" really doesn't do that much fancy work.

Think about your average manager or secretary. They use all the MS Office apps and little more. In our case, the little extra is for the most part custom in-house web-based apps.

With a good desktop interface and a little bit of training, I believe that Linux could easily replace Windows on the desktop in the corporate world. It would only take a bit of effort and planning, not too much. The home desktop is actually a much more complex problem than the corporate desktop, what with all the infinite variety of apps, games, etc, etc, etc.

Its just the beginning

[polyp2000]

I see a lot of posts on here, claiming that linux is not ready for this, that and the other.

To be perfectly honest, I have been using linux exclusively for round about 4 years, im finding im needing to use the console less and less ( although i love my bash!). Occasionally my mum uses my linux box for web browsing , as does my dad. And they have no problems with it whatsoever.

Although there are issues , driver support, installing software etc. at the end of the day these issues become less and less relevant as time progresses.

A hardware manufacturer such as HP "know" the spec. of the hardware on which they are potentially shipping linux, and by definition they can guarantee that the linux distro they choose is going to work with the package they sell, at least i hope they can!

The point is that although many of us claim that
its not ready for this, that and the other. Were really in just the same situation as other OS'es were in years ago.

This is a good thing, and what people dont seem to appreciate is that despite the perceived shortcomings, the more and more initiatives like this are taken, the better things will get.

Fair play to Novell, HP, IBM, Sony, Motorolla, Apple (plus whoever else!) and the list that goes on , for supporting and aiding the open source culture of the future.

The days of lock-in are numbered and the ways of freedom are going to prevail !

nick ...

Re:Its just the beginning

[reverendslappy]

I agree. I'd say that this agreement is one of just a few small steps to bringing Linux to the masses.

The two big things I still hold against Linux aren't huge hurdles, but they're big enough to keep it out of the mass-market. One you mentioned: driver support. The HP agreement should make for a big step forward in that area, in that -- as you said -- when HP ships the system, it'll have to work when the customer opens the box (in as much as any other HP PC does ;-). That means that customers that purchase an HP system with Linux generally won't encounter driver issues. That's a big plus in the perception arena. I'm sure many people get turned off by Linux the first time they experience the lack of a driver for a key component -- and it's probably the last time they give Linux a chance. This deal should at least help to change all that.

The other thing is something you touched on a part of: Usability (not to be confused with functionality... usability in the design/psychology sense). You mentioned software installation, which is very true, but that's just one specific example of how Linux generally falls short compared to Windows and OS X in the area of usability. Things like interface consistency, standardized package installation, and practical aesthetics are key, and Microsoft and Apple spend lots of time and money on making their products more "usable", from an interface design perspective. And so far they've succeeded -- comparatively, anyway.

So the HP deal is the first step in jumping the first hurdle. I'm sure that coming releases and the community in general will address the second, and that you're right: the days of lock-in are numbered. And thankfully so.

OS tax

[boomka]

we all know computers with pre-installed Windows cost more. From this article it seems HP will sell laptops with official SUSE on them. If you try to buy SUSE it costs quite a buck actually, even if less than Windows.
So I suppose if you want to buy linux laptop because it's cheaper than this HP offering might not be for you.

Re:OS tax

[aber]

They'll probably get some sort of deal, novell/suse should be all too willing to help them out. And if not, remember that, now that yast has been released under a more friendly license, they only have to pay for one copy of suse (if they want to) and they can put it in as many machines as they want...

Now, they're probably getting support also, and that has to cost some. But if it's like Dell's workstations with RH, you get the linux support from novell directly, and just for a few months. Than you pay novell yourself if you need more.

Ehm yeah right. Read up on MS history

[SmallFurryCreature]

If you are old enough you may remember when PC's were new and suspicious. Real work was done on terminals hooked up to mainframes or at a minimum servers.

But slowly the idea started to emerge that not everyone needed the full power of a mainframe setup. Cheap simple extremely limited machines started to appear wich could do a few tasks but that was all they needed to do. These machines where DOS and later Windows machines.

Now linux is doing the same. Sure Linux does not have the same capacity yet as a windows machine but windows did not have the same capacity as a mainframe. The question is does it do what is required well enough?

There is a difference. Dos/Windows got in through the lowend single purpose workstation. Linux is going in at all angles. High end server, middle file/printer server, lowend single purpose workstation, specialized appliance (firewall).

MS is scared. HP selling linux as an option is not something MS wants to see.

Re:Ehm yeah right. Read up on MS history

[Anonymous Coward]

The implicit argument being that MS will stand still.

At the end the difference is going to be what value does windows and linux offer at their respective price points. And a linux PC is at most going to be able to cut something like $40 bucks of the MS price tag. That is a LOT of catch up. It's not going to happen this year, or next, but, if at all, over the next decade.

I don't know about you, but my Magic Eight Ball didn't come with a 10 year warrenty.

PS - If you think Vi is best, clearly you're delusional, and probably a leper.

Re:Ehm yeah right. Read up on MS history

[gujo-odori]

Linux does not have the same capacity yet as a windows machine

You're right, we just don't have that BSOD trick down like Windows does, probably never will :-)

Seriously, though, that statement needs some qualification and narrowing. The question "Same capacity for what?" will help.

Yes, there are some areas where Linux lags quite a bit behind Windows. The most significant of these are, in my opinion:

• Multimedia, including sound, video, and graphics editing (yes, I know about The GIMP and use it, but it's still not Photoshop)
• Gaming
• Easy discovery of other resources on the LAN
• CRM (yes, I know about Compiere, but those who have used it have told me it's not yet as good as what's available on Windows, and there is more choice of software on Windows)

Of these three areas, which ones are of importance to business? Only the last two, unless your business is multimedia, and if it is you're probably using a Linux render farm and have a lot of custom software that runs on Linux workstations, too. If you're not that big, you probably do all of your work on Win or Mac. However, multimedia businesses are a small segment of the market.

The general business sector is where people will care about easy discovery of LAN resources. Now, I confess to not having looked very closely at this, to see what is being done in the Linux world. Probably some progress has been made of which I am totally unaware, but speaking in general terms, I think it's easier for an average user to find network shares and printers on a Windows LAN (including ones that actually have a Samba PDC) than to do the equivalent work on a LINUX LAN. One answer to this might be to implement Rendezvous on Linux. Another would be to make up some user-oriented graphical tools for Samba that would make it easy for users to create shares and browse for printers (I believe there are some of those, but don't know how good they are) and tightly integrate those tools with Gnome and KDE. Vendor-specific tools are not the solution to this problem (coiughMandrakecoughSuSEcough).

So, what areas that are important to business does Linux cover well?

• Web browsing
• Email
• Instant Messaging
• Groupware mostly (Kolab and Kontact are decent, but more work probably needs to be done, and there are various web-based groupware solutions that may have issues for people who need to work out of the office)
• Office suite (for most business, OpenOffice.Org or Star Office will meet their needs)
• Security and Stability. I don't think I even need to say more about this :-)

So, we have most of the business core areas covered and are making progress in the ones where we still need to do some work. And as you said, Linux is coming from all angles, which gives it the potential to be a total vertical solution from the staff PDAs and cell phones all the way up to the server farm. Microsoft is the only other vendor who sells software at all those levels. At some of those levels, Linux is already better, and it's improving rapidly at the others. And it's [Ff]ree.

Yes, MS is scared. Linux is doing to them what they did to the big iron software vendors, or doing it a lower price point and with more freedom.

Re:Ehm yeah right. Read up on MS history

[fucksl4shd0t]

* Multimedia, including sound, video, and graphics editing (yes, I know about The GIMP and use it, but it's still not Photoshop)

Multimedia is in 'ok' status right now, but probably not good enough for the video and graphics editing you're after.

* Gaming

Definitely a shortcoming, if you consider the big, multi-million dollar production games to be the only games worth playing. If you figure "I just want to play a tactical wargame or some roleplaying game", those are there already. It's just a matter of determining what kind of game you want to play. But I'll still give this as a shortcoming, because the sheer volume of games for Win/Mac outweighs Linux the same way my mother-in-law outweighs my baby boy.

* Easy discovery of other resources on the LAN

KDE already took care of this. Mandrake's tools are also open source, so you don't have to use Mandrake to use the tools anyway. Besides that, since Linux is configure once/never break, why do you need easy discovery of other resources? Why can't you just stick the same fstab entries on every machine and they all know where to look? Slightly more configuration overhead for administrators (that doesn't scale well, admittedly), but no maintenance overhead.

* CRM (yes, I know about Compiere, but those who have used it have told me it's not yet as good as what's available on Windows, and there is more choice of software on Windows)

Frustrating as hell. There's plenty of web-based CRM available, of course, but they frequently require IE to run at all. A big shortcoming here, for sure. Plenty of room for improvement.

Re:Ehm yeah right. Read up on MS history

[Anonymous Coward]

yes, I know about The GIMP and use it, but it's still not Photoshop

Thank god.

Re:Ehm yeah right. Read up on MS history

[Frugal]

KDE already took care of this. Mandrake's tools are also open source, so you don't have to use Mandrake to use the tools anyway. Besides that, since Linux is configure once/never break, why do you need easy discovery of other resources? Why can't you just stick the same fstab entries on every machine and they all know where to look? Slightly more configuration overhead for administrators (that doesn't scale well, admittedly), but no maintenance overhead.

Because when my other half gets a nice shiney new photo quality printer and shares it out from her machine I want to be able to know about it.

I also want to be able to print photos of our daughter from linux without having them come out like something from a 1980 dot line printer.

I want the laptop to see the fileserver without having to hardcode new mount points in the config files.

Re:Fair enough

[houseofmore]

I don't know about you, but when I first got into computers, I was more interested in hacking my machine to bits than making excel spreadsheets and stroking the MS paper clip. Any 15 year old hit who has half a brain will eventually realize the limitations of Windows and upgrade to Linux.

Good selling point, linux allows them to play

[SmallFurryCreature]

Not? I run a desktop on GNU/Linux/WM of the month for over two years now and I can do everything as well.

But that might not be the best selling angle.

Businesses want you to use your pc to work. Not to entertain youreselve. Odd I know but they got the money.

There are probably a lot of ways to sell linux and HP seems to take the angle, "all the apps your business needs and only the apps your business needs". Considering stuff like the RIAA not being able to run edonkey and such might actually be a HUGE selling point.

Good "convert" distro - Mepis Linux

[KRzBZ]

www.mepis.org

A little more powerful than Xandros out of the box (w/o customization), and free (voluntary paid registration post d/l and install from US$5-$30 - support Linux with your wallet!). Uses KDE 3.1.4, and it has KPackage, a GUI frontend for apt that is even easier IMO than Synaptic. I've put 2 complete Linux newbies onto it in the past 2 weeks, and they are both loving it. For "power users" it is quite nice as well, since it uses a lot of packages from Sid. A 2.6 kernel version is due out soon that may also have KDE 3.2.

Poor Linux.

[qualico]

HP makes bad equipment.
Strike that.
They make REALLY bad equipment.

Anyone who has had to work with that brand will know I'm not just making an empty statement.
Not inclusive of the problems one runs into trying to find drivers for their products like scanners.

Its sad that I will now have to deal with the garbage they peddle on a Linux level.

Why can't they just stick to making expensive ink consuming printers?

Re:Ease-of-Use Means more Users Needing Support

[BrianMarshall]

If Linux becomes very easy to use, there will be less demand for service and support providers that configure and manage Linux systems -- users wil be able to configure and manage their own boxes.

If Linux becomes easier to use, more people will use it, including people who will always need support.

New users will try out an application, decide that they might want to use it, but be unable to do what they want to do. I mean, even good products require support, and the more users there are, the more support people there will have to be.

Not ready my ass

[codepunk]

I admin nearly 500 linux thin client desktops now and I can tell you that it is more than ready. Tell the first graders that where playing frozen bubbles and potato head on one of my installations today. Tell the shop guys on the manufacturing floor that use a linux desktop every day, we had to even tell them how to use a mouse. Tell it to my family who never has to call me again with broken machine infected with spyware or virus's. Tell it to my friend who is about as smart as a fence post.

If these people can run it anyone can it just takes a professional or manufacturer to install
and set it up correctly.

I admin nearly 500 machines and get perhaps at most two support calls a week. Not that my fine troll's is low TCO.

If you're against offtopic flamewar...

[fm6]

...don't add to the flames!

Here is news for you. Suse ain't free

[SmallFurryCreature]

It is actually one of the harder to download distro's. Not impossible but they make it pretty clear they would like you to pay for it.

So will it be cheaper? Well depends on scale and on how much Novell wants this. Lets not forget that Windows does not exactly come at retail price when you buy it pre-installed. Companies like Dell and HP get GIGANTIC discounts. This has recently been discussed on /. so no need to repeat it.

So will Novel/Suse be able/willing to undersell windows? It might be close. I don't think they can afford to undercut what MS charges for XP Home OEM but it might just break even with XP Pro OEM.

Of course this is all just speculation.

HOWEVER unless HP is really just screwing around even if you pay the same YOU WILL NOT be paying for a MS windows license. You would be paying for a Novell/Suse License.

I think that if you want a clean system from an HP or Dell you might have a few more years to go. MS has in its contracts with these firms that they will not sell OSless machines. Why do you think Dell sells some machines with a freedos? Because anybody really would need that? No because they are not allowed to sell it without an OS and freedos is the closest they can get.

So you get half you wish. No money going to MS but the money is also not going to remain in your pocket. Then again this is about free as in freedom not about free as in keeping your money.

Um I'm not sure where to reply

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok, Every few months I try a different distribution of Linux. I've tried debian, SuSE, Mandrake, Redhat, Gentoo. I've TRIED and TRIED. I really want to use Linux but I'm stopped at the first hurdle. I've bought books on Linux which are written by geeks for geeks.

Then I realised, every day I work on my Windows 2000 box in VB6 building my framework where I build applications. I write frameworks for PocketPCs which allow you to very quickly build applications using drag and drop interfaces. Click a few buttons on the server and BAM you have a pocketpc application.

Except it's not like that, because I wrote the editor and the framework, have been coding since i was 7, wrote assembler since i was 12, I'm more comfortable in ASM than speaking to girls! So my framework and code mesh.

Want to make my framework execute a system command? add a Pound to the command. this drops it into system mode. Of course I know this and anyone confident enough to dig around in the Windows API will handle that.

This is what Linux expects of users from the word go. This year, I realised _I_ cannot remember all the commands and had to write a GUI so I could administer my own framework. GUIs are not there to make it easy for Mom and Pop they're there to make it easier for us coders. I'm only 25 but I'm struggling to remember how to MALLOC because I havent used it in years. GUIs jog our memories.

I tried to configure my linux wireless. Text files all the way. With no real documentation. Reinstalled XP and stuck it behind a Linux firewall. Yes, I drop to command line in windows sometimes. but those things are shortcuts to existing icons in the GUI. not exceptions.

You can all thank Microsoft (seriously)

[Anonymous Coward]

Hehe. Not kiddin;

Microsoft contracts require OEMs ship an OS with their PCs. If this requirement did not exist, these PCs may go out without an OS at all.

Re:The cynic^H^H^H^H^HTroll speaks...

[jmb-d]

What about HP? HP-UX is dying, they need to jump on something.

HP-UX was never intended to be a desktop OS.

Re:you should have been blocked forever

[thesupraman]

You complete moron.

Did you actually read my posting? do you have some grasp of the english language?

look, what I was saying is that my country allowed a group of AMERICANS to come HERE and work for 6 months, in highly paid jobs, effectively taking jobs from our people, however we welcomed them with open arms, treated them well, and did everything to make that a good stay.

Then the same people, when I was going to the US simple to TRAIN them so THEY could do a job over there, blocked my entry and renneged on their contract. In the end they couldn't do the job themselves anyway, so your precious US people ended up losing work over this.

In my country, that is considered a pretty damn stupid thing to do, maybe it's just business as usual in the good ole US of A.

Believe it or not there are things other countries can do better than the US. It is safe to say that I will not be entering into further contracts in the US, therefore business opportunities will be lost in your precious country. This is no problem for me, I have plenty of customers elsewhere wanting my services.

And anyone who thinks this is off topic, think a little deeper. The topic here is a company who has actually got the good sense to offer an alternative to a *proven* monopoly. It would also seem that they have the common sense to have work done in the places where it can be best done. GOOD ON THEM!. I, as someone who strongly believes in REAL equalities and fairness, strongly applaud their actions.

PCI X?

[ratfynk]

With the upcoming change to PCI X, Linux might become a hard sell if all the hottest new PCI devices are Windows only again! I was reading that the board and chip designers are all MS software funded. It might take up to the Linux 2.8 kernel to catch up, given that all the specs will need to be reversed. Maybe HP and IBM know something other hardware manufactures do not? Might PCI X bomb in its first incarnation?

just go back to your fantasy world...

[Anonymous Coward]

Sheesh, such a pile of BS.... Dude, no, you haven't been coding since you were 7 (no, 10 print "", 20 goto 10, that doesn't count as coding), and most certainly not doing assembly at 12. You know why? Because if you were, you wouldn't be doing VB at 25. You'd be writing a lot of cool apps, probably C, probably OpenGL, some cool games, some device drivers, you know, cool stuff.

You can't make your linux install work properly. So you try to say that it must be because linux is tough. That must be it, since you can do all this "cool" stuff in VB?? Got some news for you: anybody can do VB, even a lazy ass like you. It doesn't mean it's powerful, just that it's easy. That's like saying TV is better than books, 'cause it takes less effort to learn stuff from it.

If you had put a little effort, you linux install would have worked out. People get linux working because they're little geniuses? No, it's because they tried. Linux has no real documentation??? Are you also illiterate? And what's this nonsense about GUIs?

And I'm wasting my time on you. You're just a looser, a 25 year old script kiddie, trying desperately to be a geek, a hacker, or something idiotic like that. It's sad.

Kudos to HP and a big thumbs down to Dell

[Anonymous Coward]

I want say thank you to HP and this may be the first time in 7 years I will order HP pc with linux pre loaded for Home use.

I am just shocked that Dell did all the talk on linux but never had the balls to do the same as HP.

Dell should get off their ass and sell home user with linux pc not work station for 800 bucks thats stupid only for business.

If HP and Walmart can sell linux desktop to home users for less than 300 bucks so can Dell . I guess Dell is in bed with M$ monopoly.

English?

[nurb432]

According to English Language rules being applied to your original post, you were denied access to this country, 6 months ago.

That is a *good* thing, which was my main point.. You aren't wanted here by many of us.. pretty simple.. or cant you understand that?

Similarly, a US company that would even think of sponsoring people in to work, regardless if its a so called 'training mission' ( which I don't believe, I bet that's just a ruse to get your work permit, getting back to my original comments ) should be banned from marketing its products here. However, that they cancelled the contract in the end was a redeeming factor for that company.

And just to clarify, bringing people in for a specific purpose from an outside entity ( assuming its legit for a moment ) is still a form of outsourcing, which is wrong. This is why my original response was still appropriate.

I just wasn't saying something you wanted to hear.. it has nothing to do with a lack of 'grasp of the English language'.

Off topic? We both are at this point.

Re:English?

[meadowsp]

So you're a native American right? Just interested to know, because if you're not then you're a pretty big hypocrite.

Re:English?

[reanjr]

Ever heard of Manifest Destiny?

It was a widely held belief back in the time when Europeans were killing and persecuting Natives. It was being done by every country with the resources to do so. It was a slightly more primitive time, if you want to think of it that way.

Guess what? No one really believes in Manifest Destiny anymore. And just because my great(-great){1,} grandparents (or their government) may have believed in it, would not make ME a hypocrite anymore than the fact that Americans bought and sold slaves makes me racist or responsible for slavery.

HP Product Drivers?

[kwpulliam]

Perhaps now they will also start putting out Linux Drivers for all the HP hardware in the world, like my 4470c Scanner

Re:HP Product Drivers?

[Scorchio]

I was kind of hoping that this means they will, too. I've tried switching to Linux twice - the last time I found that it did a pish poor job of printing docs on my HP 720c deskjet. That rendered it pretty much useless for my needs at the time, so Linux was rarely booted. Surely, if they're going to distribute Linux PCs, they'd have to distribute appropriate drivers for their peripherals?

Where is IBM?

[invisik]

IBM invests $50 million into Novell and spreads the word in a major way about linux. IBM only has Linux on the server. WTF?

I'm a big Compaqer from way back, but since the whole HP/Compaq things, I've really come to like IBM--and that their prices have come down to compete with Dell. But I'm a bit miffed by this half-assed Linux powerplay IBM has made.....

What is up?!

-m

HP to Boldly Go and Globally Launch...

[horace]

...a new assault on the infinitive?

You mean it's a "disruptive technology"

[mangu]

In 1997, Clayton Christensen published a book, "The Innovator's Dilemma", which became a bestseller among economists and managers. In that book, he describes what he calls "disruptive technologies" that are exactly how you describe PCs.

Christensen studied several different technologies, ranging from earth-moving machines to retail sales techniques, and came to the same conclusion: new developments have limited capabilities and cater for limited groups. But, in the long term, the old companies that produce superior products today will be history. It's almost impossible for an established company to compete against a disruptive technology. The new technology will keep improving and getting progressively larger segments of the market, while the old companies are locked in their old products.

Extra cost? What extra cost?

[mangu]

Given the extra cost of supporting Linux

People who do Linux support do make more than people who support Windows. However, when you take into account the amount of support work that's needed for each, Linux support comes at a much lower total cost, if you have more than a half-dozen or so machines. The difference is even larger if you also take into account the down-time for users that stop working while the support people chase the problem.

It's easy as 1,2,3,4

[mangu]

1) They ignore us

2) They make fun of us

3) They fight us

4) We win

You seem to be in stage 2. Microsoft seems to be in stage 3. HP is moving on to stage 4.

What about the HP3570c scanner?

[mangu]

The site you mention is Sourceforge, not an official HP site. The people at the SANE project would dearly welcome the info needed to write drivers. This difficulty in getting the technical info, which is critical for USB-based devices that must download firmware from the computer to work, is holding back the development of drivers for HP scanners.

... Why not in Australia HP?.

[CountMoriarty]

An article in 'The Australian' newspaper http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,89 91730%255E15306,00.html says that HP will not supply these to Australia. Why not HP?

DRM/ Trusted computing

[polyp2000]

Does this mean that HP will make the neccessary changes to Linux to enable it to be used on DRM enabled bioses? as a "Trusted" operating system ?

Don't forget about Debian

[mrcparker]

I got an Itanium 2 in yesterday and it came with a Debian install CD.

We also purchased "Linux" support, not Red Hat or SUSE support.

Also, Debian runs really well with HP's custom kernel.

Good point. Tux resembles a sack o' taters.

[stealth.c]

Thanks to corporate vendors, I think we can keep Tux and still maintain a streamlined image. Tux, as he is, shall remain the mascot of Linux the kernel as long as Linus sees fit. Yet distributions, the real OSes, usually have their own mascots/logos. SUSE and RedHat come most readily to mind. THEIR trademarks are certainly professional-looking enough. I don't think we'll face an 'unattractive brand' problem. Vendors usually take care of that. They have to. Marketing!

PS: I also stand by my statement that chicks do indeed dig Tux. Every friend of the double-X-chromosome variety I know of who has seen Tux considers him 'cute.' Jane Average Users, I believe, will become far less afraid of their machines if they associate them with a 'cute' little penguin than a 'goddamn' little paperclip.

Re:Good point. Tux resembles a sack o' taters.

[msimm]

Vendors = agreed
Paperclip = agreed


Nice sig. I guess it the scheme of things its just a minor rant of mine and if its really necessary (or becomes necessary) the marketing teams will clambor for the change themselves. It just seems like when I look at all those fancy logos on a piece of hardware or software Tux just looks 1984 to me. But I hadn't thought about it as warming people up to Linux, so maybe a little fuddy-duddy isn't so bad. *shrug*

Mainstream Minorities

[nurb432]

Too bad the mainstream of the minority population doesnt realize this.

They still think we are a racist due to things that happened long long ago.

And want to make US pay for it, again and again and again......

Hell EVERY race was oppressed at some point in the past.. they just need to get over it and get out of my face with it.