I should apologize a bit, I'm being ruder than normal.
As for the topic I'm posting on, I'm haven't been commenting at all about whether the skinning of apps causes problems (I think it can and does) or about consistency (which I applaud), I was totally focusing on the fact that njdj didn't respond to whatshisname's post but instead used a straw man and a horrible analogy to attack him. That's all. Period. I think the phrase Different != bad is true. It's general a statement to be the any other way.
I do appreciate you responding consistently, most people quit after a post or two, and I have enjoyed the discussion very much.
I am posting this in haste, please excuse typos and errors.
A group of east coast buccaneers is going to be fighting a group of western raiders.
Yeah, I heard about it as well. Doesn't Martin Scorsese have something to do with this?
Oh and heaven help me but who wouldn't spend whatever amount time is necessary to get the chance to see Leonardo DiCaprio get creamed by large angry men...
My original post was purely in response to the horrible way in which njdj attempted to refute a post by Dave_bsr that basically said "just being different doesn't make something bad" by giving an example of how "different can be bad". I believe he did not respond to Dave_bsr's argument, he made an analogy full of holes and potentially based on opinion.
Anyway he was negating you, he purpousfully said different = bad because it is.
Now you want to start arguing emphatically about your opinion?
Use OSX for a while and you will understand, a consistent OS for your entire computer using experience is somewhat like heaven.
Are you THE straw man? I haven't even once commented on user interface consistency and it being good or bad. Look, if Different == bad, then OSX is bad because some of it is different from OS9. Different is too broad a category to lump totally into the category of bad. Different is how innovation happens. It's different once, and then if it's good, it becomes the standard. Dave_bsr didn't say that different can't be a mistake (bad), he said difference in and of itseld does not mean something is bad. If you disagree with that, then give me something to back it up. Explain to me how you have never enjoyed or appreciated or thought that a change to a user interface was good.
uh, Different != Bad means quite literally "Different is not equal to Bad", or alternatively "Different is anything but Bad"
No, it means that different does not exist in the subset of bad. That just being different doesn't equate to being bad. The guy I replied to said basically the opposite (i.e. if it is different, it is bad)
In the same vein being a Democrat != Bad, being a Republican != bad, but there are bad Democrats and bad Republicans.
I disagree. When it comes to user interface conventions, Different=Bad.
Just imagine walking into a car showroom to buy a car, and the sales guy shows you this neat-looking model. It has 2 pedals, one of them turns on the windshield wipers, the other turns on the heated rear window. The brake is operated by a stalk on the left of the steering column... need I continue?
Yes, please continue to explain how when the previous poster stated "Different != Bad", he really meant "Different cannot equal Bad".
According to what you've written, you basically believe that once a certain level of standardization exists, there is never a reason to try something different. And if, God forbid, you do try something different, it is equal to the worst example of a vehicle interface that you can think up. Is that about right, or did you want tell me how "your" car accelerates?
-- I'm sorry, but your analogy has run out of gas.
There was a thrill of genuine excitement today in the normall dull world of weights and measures as Culbert Pons, the Chair of Recent Units announced a new measurement to describe the common phenomenon of news stories getting published repeatedly on internet news sites.
1 Taco = 3 dpm (dupes per minute)
The unit was named after "Cmdr Taco", founder of internet geek news site Slashdot. Mr. Pons is requesting a federal grant to study a phenomenon observed only on Slashdot, where duplicate stories are somehow posted before the original. I refer to individuals with such prescient news power as "pre-dupes" said Culbert. The Philip K. Dick estate was unavailable for comment.
--
When I started writing this, it was an homage to the original post. Then I hit the snag of mild inspiration.
There is an old saying, give me my tea hot or iced, but if it is lukewarm I will spit it out of my mouth
That might be a real saying, but I've never heard it. I am familiar with this: 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:15-16)
He simply refuses to understand that we are quickly entering into an age where either all information will be controlled or all information will be free. Information is so easy to copy, modify, and manipulate - there can be no middle ground.
There is always the possibility of a middle ground. In fact, as long as there are two sides fighting, there will be some degree of "middle ground". The ease (or lack thereof) with which one can commit an act is not the only method of prevention, though it is the best indicator of an individual's values (and collectively, a society's).
I can cope with this reasoning. You at least make points and argue them and at best we are discussing opinion not right vs. wrong. I took issue with the other poster's statements as proof that had no bearing on his arguments.
But if you're going to release undocumented software, don't expect a flood of people to come in and start using it. Do expect somebody else to come along and do it better.
No not better, freer (yeah, it's not a word, but it works for me). What you are saying is that if I have the best software package on the market and give it away for free, but make my money on the documentation sales, then it's not worth it to you because you had to pay something. You aren't discussing quality, you are discussing how much you get for nothing. Maybe you meant to discuss quality, but you didn't write about it in your post.
Go to CGTalk.com. People do that today. They create artwork, then they share their technique with other people so they can learn. It would harm the community if everybody was to say "I'll tell you how I did it, but first go to paypal.com..." It would probably stall to the point that the community dies out.
Go back to the post you are responding to. He did not say you shouldn't be allowed to choose to share your knowledge, he said that you are not forced to. It doesn't strengthen your argument that there are artists who give out detailed information on technique. It doesn't make it wrong to charge for your services. There are people who work for religious causes for no pay and live off of donations and handouts; that doesn't make it wrong to work for money does it?
I don't think this is a matter of obligations like that other guy does, but there is a matter of maintaining intergity. If Open Source is an unprofitable model, then that will forever be a sticky note in the goal of replacing proprietary software.
Oh, and in case you didn't get the memo. We are not a collective. Everyone who releases Open Source code, is not part of the movement. We do not all believe the same things, and we sure as heck don't all have the same goals.
Everytime I read a post like yours I always wonder if the how strongly the individual objects to the things that don't appeal to them. The neat thing ablut Linux, is that it can revel in its distinction and attempt to clone XP all at the same time. This is because there is no one thing called Linux. There is not one desktop known as Linux, not one shell, not one mail manager, not even one kernel tree. Please don't take this as aimed at you. You don't sound militantly opposed to XPde pursuing their vision of an XP UI for Linux. You were just stating your opinion, just like me, but I've read so many posts that flame anyone attempting to do something that doesn't mesh with their vision of Linux. I just haven't had time to respond before.
Screw the geek code I'm putting my genetic code in my sig. Now all I need is a cloning program that reads from standard input. (before anyone suggests it, I know sex works, but I'm a geek, what are my odds...;)
I'm sure you can tell what I'm getting at: in order to receive frequency RF, one must generate frequency IF [bldrdoc.gov] via local oscillations (LO), and IF directly corresponds to RF. Stephen Wolfram points out [wolfram.com] the relationship V[IF] = V[RF] + V[LO] for increasing and V[IF] = V[RF] - V[LO] for decreasing. Armed with this formula and decent knowledge of the radio's tank circuit, it is trivial to pick up the LO and IF frequencies your car radio transmits, albiet inadvertedly, and customize the billboard contents accordingly
Hmmm... So this array 'V', that holds all these values, where is it initialized?? I mean if I can get hold of the source code to my radio, I can easily change the IF variable (#define or whatever).
Looks pretty easy, but then I'm sure these "smart billboard" people didn't expect they'd be dealing with a C programmer.
I hope it isn't written in Java - that would explain why my channel seek moves so slowly.
I hope I don't have any trouble with my new website dedicated to internet macaroni. I'm calling it e-macs.com or I might drop the dash. But it seems like I've heard that name before...I think it's a text editor, or maybe an IDE, or a browser...
Oh well, I can just claim that they have dilluted their own trademark.
Wouldn't it be more like: "Studio originals of Ya Ya Sisterhood were left on the curb outside of a mall in Hollywood. They were stolen several times, but returned within minutes. "
Of course we are. In fact, you should probably just attribute any statement made by any American to all Americans.
Of course according to the article it looks like Carlos Sánchez Almeida made the statement, though it doesn't explicitly assign it anyone. Also, I think he might be Spanish.
European countries may decide to censor U.S. content themselves, as Spain has done, suggested Carlos Sánchez Almeida, a cybercrime lawyer located in Barcelona.
Spain recently passed legislation authorizing judges to shut down Spanish sites and block access to U.S. Web pages that don't comply with national laws.
"If European countries adopt the (anti-racism) amendment of the European Council in their legislatures, they'll also be able to block websites from the U.S.A., despite the First Amendment."
Being from NZ an' all... Wal-mart won't sell a computer game because of a little bit of nudity, yet it continues to sell guns. Is there anyone _inside_ the US that doesn't find that just a tad strange?
I'm assuming you agree that Wal-Mart/Best Buy/whoever choosing not to carry a title is based on some moral/ethical/religious notion, or the fear of being perceived to lack moral/ethics/religious values. So assuming that, I have to ask: 1. you believe it's immoral to own a gun? and 2. you are surprised that American demographics skew toward the right to keep and bear arms over the choice to sell a commodity associated with children (games) that contains nudity???
Not only that, but he is also robbing me of the karma I could have honestly whored by posting the site's text once it was slashdotted (which it seems to be failing to do... blasted Finnish smarty-pants;)
Personally I think individual discrimination is one of the few freedoms we all should have. It is no one else's business how I choose to spend my money, as a consumer or as an employer (government jobs and services are quite different of course).
Forcing someone to spend there money where they would have chosen to spend it (by forcing them to hire someone) is worse than discrimination. It mocks the notion that we own our businesses.
I agree that there is more going on here than we were told about. But this was an article not a technical analysis of a migration. How may times has Microsoft gotten ridiculously good praise in an article?
Today a large financial institution replaced its Unix systems with Windows Bicentennial servers. Besides the prerequisite 5 billion percent increase in productivity and well being, the members of the migration team said that they have each experienced a new appreciation for love and life itself, have been able to visualize and achieve their lifelong dreams, and have apparently become multi-orgasmic. They attribute all of their successes to Microsoft and its life-changing software
I say it's about time Linux gets some recognition, even if the facts get a ?little? (ok, a lot) skewed.
OK, nothing substantial was revealed in the article that we didn't already know, but this is exactly where we need the attention. Increased business interest in Linux will create parallel markets that can be explored by existing software companies, Linux vendors, and by venture capitalists.
***Note: I realize the article did not discuss the desktop or home use. My comments are poor extrapolations based on the a potential future timeline.
I've followed the debates concerning linux on the desktop, and I agree that Linux is not ready to go after Redmond in the home user department.
But I do think that business penetration is the first step to home penetration. Once Linux becomes the de facto server system, there will be money and interest for desktop development ventures.
And later on, as businesses make the jump to linux on the desktop, so will home users. Many people learned to use Windows at work in the first place. Once these people say: "gee, I already use Linux at work. Do I really want to pay $100-$200 dollars to buy Windows Gestapo? I think I'll just install Linux.
They moved its reforging into The Two Towers. (which I'm sure will be complained about by some as being too much of a reminder of 9/11. There will probably be a petition to have it renamed "two tall buildings" or "the shadow falls")
Most important events will still be in the movie, but their order is being occasionally adjusted to give them more weight and significance. I don't mind that much as long as they don't screw it up too badly.
Slashdot Mirror
You can't convince me that Microsoft support costs less annually than RedHat. I am talking specifically about servers, and for the academic world.
I should apologize a bit, I'm being ruder than normal.
As for the topic I'm posting on, I'm haven't been commenting at all about whether the skinning of apps causes problems (I think it can and does) or about consistency (which I applaud), I was totally focusing on the fact that njdj didn't respond to whatshisname's post but instead used a straw man and a horrible analogy to attack him. That's all. Period. I think the phrase Different != bad is true. It's general a statement to be the any other way.
I do appreciate you responding consistently, most people quit after a post or two, and I have enjoyed the discussion very much.
I am posting this in haste, please excuse typos and errors.
A group of east coast buccaneers is going to be fighting a group of western raiders.
Yeah, I heard about it as well. Doesn't Martin Scorsese have something to do with this?
Oh and heaven help me but who wouldn't spend whatever amount time is necessary to get the chance to see Leonardo DiCaprio get creamed by large angry men...
My original post was purely in response to the horrible way in which njdj attempted to refute a post by Dave_bsr that basically said "just being different doesn't make something bad" by giving an example of how "different can be bad". I believe he did not respond to Dave_bsr's argument, he made an analogy full of holes and potentially based on opinion.
Anyway he was negating you, he purpousfully said different = bad because it is.
Now you want to start arguing emphatically about your opinion?
Use OSX for a while and you will understand, a consistent OS for your entire computer using experience is somewhat like heaven.
Are you THE straw man? I haven't even once commented on user interface consistency and it being good or bad.
Look, if Different == bad, then OSX is bad because some of it is different from OS9. Different is too broad a category to lump totally into the category of bad. Different is how innovation happens. It's different once, and then if it's good, it becomes the standard. Dave_bsr didn't say that different can't be a mistake (bad), he said difference in and of itseld does not mean something is bad. If you disagree with that, then give me something to back it up. Explain to me how you have never enjoyed or appreciated or thought that a change to a user interface was good.
uh, Different != Bad means quite literally "Different is not equal to Bad", or alternatively "Different is anything but Bad"
No, it means that different does not exist in the subset of bad. That just being different doesn't equate to being bad. The guy I replied to said basically the opposite (i.e. if it is different, it is bad)
In the same vein being a Democrat != Bad, being a Republican != bad, but there are bad Democrats and bad Republicans.
--
Grab a logic bucket and start bailing.
I disagree. When it comes to user interface conventions, Different=Bad.
... need I continue?
Just imagine walking into a car showroom to buy a car, and the sales guy shows you this neat-looking model. It has 2 pedals, one of them turns on the windshield wipers, the other turns on the heated rear window. The brake is operated by a stalk on the left of the steering column
Yes, please continue to explain how when the previous poster stated "Different != Bad", he really meant "Different cannot equal Bad".
According to what you've written, you basically believe that once a certain level of standardization exists, there is never a reason to try something different. And if, God forbid, you do try something different, it is equal to the worst example of a vehicle interface that you can think up. Is that about right, or did you want tell me how "your" car accelerates?
--
I'm sorry, but your analogy has run out of gas.
19:22 21 January 03
BREAKING NEWS
There was a thrill of genuine excitement today in the normall dull world of weights and measures as Culbert Pons, the Chair of Recent Units announced a new measurement to describe the common phenomenon of news stories getting published repeatedly on internet news sites.
1 Taco = 3 dpm (dupes per minute)
The unit was named after "Cmdr Taco", founder of internet geek news site Slashdot. Mr. Pons is requesting a federal grant to study a phenomenon observed only on Slashdot, where duplicate stories are somehow posted before the original. I refer to individuals with such prescient news power as "pre-dupes" said Culbert. The Philip K. Dick estate was unavailable for comment.
--
When I started writing this, it was an homage to the original post. Then I hit the snag of mild inspiration.
There is an old saying, give me my tea hot or iced, but if it is lukewarm I will spit it out of my mouth
That might be a real saying, but I've never heard it.
I am familiar with this:
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth.
(Revelation 3:15-16)
He simply refuses to understand that we are quickly entering into an age where either all information will be controlled or all information will be free. Information is so easy to copy, modify, and manipulate - there can be no middle ground.
There is always the possibility of a middle ground. In fact, as long as there are two sides fighting, there will be some degree of "middle ground". The ease (or lack thereof) with which one can commit an act is not the only method of prevention, though it is the best indicator of an individual's values (and collectively, a society's).
I can cope with this reasoning.
You at least make points and argue them and at best we are discussing opinion not right vs. wrong.
I took issue with the other poster's statements as proof that had no bearing on his arguments.
But if you're going to release undocumented software, don't expect a flood of people to come in and start using it. Do expect somebody else to come along and do it better.
No not better, freer (yeah, it's not a word, but it works for me).
What you are saying is that if I have the best software package on the market and give it away for free, but make my money on the documentation sales, then it's not worth it to you because you had to pay something. You aren't discussing quality, you are discussing how much you get for nothing. Maybe you meant to discuss quality, but you didn't write about it in your post.
Go to CGTalk.com. People do that today. They create artwork, then they share their technique with other people so they can learn. It would harm the community if everybody was to say "I'll tell you how I did it, but first go to paypal.com..." It would probably stall to the point that the community dies out.
Go back to the post you are responding to. He did not say you shouldn't be allowed to choose to share your knowledge, he said that you are not forced to. It doesn't strengthen your argument that there are artists who give out detailed information on technique. It doesn't make it wrong to charge for your services. There are people who work for religious causes for no pay and live off of donations and handouts; that doesn't make it wrong to work for money does it?
I don't think this is a matter of obligations like that other guy does, but there is a matter of maintaining intergity. If Open Source is an unprofitable model, then that will forever be a sticky note in the goal of replacing proprietary software.
Oh, and in case you didn't get the memo. We are not a collective. Everyone who releases Open Source code, is not part of the movement. We do not all believe the same things, and we sure as heck don't all have the same goals.
Everytime I read a post like yours I always wonder if the how strongly the individual objects to the things that don't appeal to them.
The neat thing ablut Linux, is that it can revel in its distinction and attempt to clone XP all at the same time. This is because there is no one thing called Linux. There is not one desktop known as Linux, not one shell, not one mail manager, not even one kernel tree.
Please don't take this as aimed at you. You don't sound militantly opposed to XPde pursuing their vision of an XP UI for Linux. You were just stating your opinion, just like me, but I've read so many posts that flame anyone attempting to do something that doesn't mesh with their vision of Linux. I just haven't had time to respond before.
Merry Christmas.
Screw the geek code I'm putting my genetic code in my sig. ;)
Now all I need is a cloning program that reads from standard input.
(before anyone suggests it, I know sex works, but I'm a geek, what are my odds...
I'm sure you can tell what I'm getting at: in order to receive frequency RF, one must generate frequency IF [bldrdoc.gov] via local oscillations (LO), and IF directly corresponds to RF. Stephen Wolfram points out [wolfram.com] the relationship V[IF] = V[RF] + V[LO] for increasing and V[IF] = V[RF] - V[LO] for decreasing. Armed with this formula and decent knowledge of the radio's tank circuit, it is trivial to pick up the LO and IF frequencies your car radio transmits, albiet inadvertedly, and customize the billboard contents accordingly
Hmmm...
So this array 'V', that holds all these values, where is it initialized??
I mean if I can get hold of the source code to my radio, I can easily change the IF variable (#define or whatever).
Looks pretty easy, but then I'm sure these "smart billboard" people didn't expect they'd be dealing with a C programmer.
I hope it isn't written in Java - that would explain why my channel seek moves so slowly.
I hope I don't have any trouble with my new website dedicated to internet macaroni.
I'm calling it e-macs.com or I might drop the dash. But it seems like I've heard that
name before...I think it's a text editor, or maybe an IDE, or a browser...
Oh well, I can just claim that they have dilluted their own trademark.
Wouldn't it be more like:
"Studio originals of Ya Ya Sisterhood were left on the curb outside of a mall
in Hollywood. They were stolen several times, but returned within minutes. "
Of course we are. In fact, you should probably just attribute any statement made by any American to all Americans.
Of course according to the article it looks like Carlos Sánchez Almeida made the statement, though it doesn't explicitly assign it anyone. Also, I think he might be Spanish.
European countries may decide to censor U.S. content themselves,
as Spain has done, suggested Carlos Sánchez Almeida, a cybercrime
lawyer located in Barcelona.
Spain recently passed legislation authorizing judges to shut down
Spanish sites and block access to U.S. Web pages that don't
comply with national laws.
"If European countries adopt the (anti-racism) amendment
of the European Council in their legislatures, they'll also be able
to block websites from the U.S.A., despite the First Amendment."
.
Being from NZ an' all...
Wal-mart won't sell a computer game because of a little bit of nudity, yet it continues to sell guns.
Is there anyone _inside_ the US that doesn't find that just a tad strange?
I'm assuming you agree that Wal-Mart/Best Buy/whoever choosing not to carry a title is based on some moral/ethical/religious notion, or the fear of being perceived to lack moral/ethics/religious values.
So assuming that, I have to ask: 1. you believe it's immoral to own a gun? and 2. you are surprised that American demographics skew toward the right to keep and bear arms over the choice to sell a commodity associated with children (games) that contains nudity???
Not only that, but he is also robbing me of the karma I could have honestly whored ;)
by posting the site's text once it was slashdotted (which it seems to be failing
to do... blasted Finnish smarty-pants
Personally I think individual discrimination is one of the few freedoms we all should have. It is no one else's business how I choose to spend my money, as a consumer or as an employer (government jobs and services are quite different of course).
Forcing someone to spend there money where they would have chosen to spend it (by forcing them to hire someone) is worse than discrimination. It mocks the notion that we own our businesses.
This is slashdot, they have their own definition of the word quality ;)
-Phædrus
I'm kind of the other way around.
I instinctively took to working the Thinkpad with my tongue
I'm kind of the other way around.
I agree that there is more going on here than we were told about. But this was an article not a technical analysis of a migration. How may times has Microsoft gotten ridiculously good praise in an article?
Today a large financial institution replaced its Unix systems with Windows Bicentennial servers. Besides the prerequisite 5 billion percent increase in productivity and well being, the members of the migration team said that they have each experienced a new appreciation for love and life itself, have been able to visualize and achieve their lifelong dreams, and have apparently become multi-orgasmic. They attribute all of their successes to Microsoft and its life-changing software
I say it's about time Linux gets some recognition, even if the facts get a ?little? (ok, a lot) skewed.
OK, nothing substantial was revealed in the article that we didn't already know, but this is exactly where we need the attention. Increased business interest in Linux will create parallel markets that can be explored by existing software companies, Linux vendors, and by venture capitalists.
***Note: I realize the article did not discuss the desktop or home use. My comments are poor extrapolations based on the a potential future timeline.
I've followed the debates concerning linux on the desktop, and I agree that Linux is not ready to go after Redmond in the home user department.
But I do think that business penetration is the first step to home penetration. Once Linux becomes the de facto server system, there will be money and interest for desktop development ventures.
And later on, as businesses make the jump to linux on the desktop, so will home users. Many people learned to use Windows at work in the first place. Once these people say: "gee, I already use Linux at work. Do I really want to pay $100-$200 dollars to buy Windows Gestapo? I think I'll just install Linux.
At least that's how I hope it works.
They moved its reforging into The Two Towers.
(which I'm sure will be complained about by some as being too much of a reminder of 9/11. There will probably be a petition to have it renamed "two tall buildings" or "the shadow falls")
Most important events will still be in the movie, but their order is being occasionally adjusted to give them more weight and significance. I don't mind that much as long as they don't screw it up too badly.