I agree to a point. If you want some real insight, check out how the folks working on noda-time (a.Net implementation of java's joda-time library) have described the issues with.Net's built-in DateTime handling: http://noda-time.blogspot.com/
Although, nothing described there would account for this leap-day bug. My guess is that some developer decided to do his own math on dates rather than using the framework's implementation.
I think it's a mistake to say "oh, well everyone's got it wrong so don't trust a library". You probably can get more out of a library than doing it yourself. However, you have to be aware of the implications of using that library.
On the.Net platform in particular, Microsoft has made a mess of things by making developers think that DateTime, and TimeZoneInfo are "perfect". They're not.
Why the hell would you give the guy at Kikos a box of your tax returns and legal documents? Especially since you are asking him to scan them! It only takes a minute for him to make his own digital copy and poof! There goes your identity.
What do commonly used OSs, apps, do about a user that is entering NONEXISTENT dates, like Dec 30, 2011 *in that locality* (but not necessarily in the locality of the user)? I guess dates are meaningless unless accompanied by the locality of the date.
Exactly. There are a whole slew of dates/times that simply do not exist in certain timezones. As an example, March 13, 2011 at 2:30 AM in Eastern Time (usa), which is smack in the middle of a "spring-forward" DST change. Say you use the TimeZoneInfo class in.Net Framework to convert from this non-existant time to UTC:
(c# code)
var tz = TimeZoneInfo.FindSystemTimeZoneById("Eastern Standard Time");
var localTime = new DateTime(2011, 3, 13, 2, 30, 0);
var utcTime = TimeZoneInfo.ConvertTimeToUtc(localTime, tz);
You will get an ArgumentException with the message "The supplied DateTime represents an invalid time. For example, when the clock is adjusted forward, any time in the period that is skipped is invalid."
I'm assuming other languages/frameworks/os's do similar things, either throwing an exception, or returning null, NaN, or similar.
In regards to regular updates, Windows gets timezone updates from Microsoft via Windows Update. According to Wikipedia, Linux updates of the TZ database are different depending on distribution: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tz_database#Maintenance
Does current time code even have the sufficient smarts currently to handle specific countries CHANGING their TZ on a particular date?
Yes. Linux/Unix has a long history of tracking timezone changes for specific countries, states, provinces, etc. It's called the Olsen Timzone Database. It was recently taken over by IANA, and is hosted here http://www.iana.org/time-zones
This makes me wonder. Are people going to be paid/charged interest for a non-existing 12-30-11 there?
It depends. I work for a time and attendance company as software developer, so I have some insight. Basically, this is handled just like a DST change, but for a much longer period.
Many timekeeping systems (hardware and software alike) just keep track of "local time". Some have the ability to keep a list of DST changes that need to be applied at specific times, and some use NTP or other protocols to sync their clocks and pickup timezone changes that way. While these systems handle "spring-forward" changes ok, they are usually flawed in the way they handle "fall-back". If someone clocks in or out DURING the fall-back period, there is no way to tell if they get an extra hour or not, because there is no recorded distinction between the two times that are both called the same thing. The good thing about DST is that the change usually happens in the middle of the night, which minimizes the number of manual corrections that have to be made.
The solution to all of this, of course, is recording time as UTC and converting it for proper display depending on context. Some systems out there caught on early, but really this idea is just now making its way into the market. This is where the timezone database is very valuable. Windows also has a timezone database (different than the Olsen DB), but Microsoft only pushes it out every few months (via windows update), so it is often behind in various parts of the world. Microsoft timezone info here: http://blogs.technet.com/b/dst2007
Since Samoa and Tokelau are skipping a day, this is a "spring-forward" scenario - which is very easy to calculate. It is highly unlikely that they will have issues with paying an extra day (or charging an extra day's interest), as long as they consider the change like any other DST change. I would think that this is big news there, so anyone with custom code will probably be aware of the situation and make the correction.
Of course, if you have a bank account in another country, they are going to say a big "screw you" to your request to be charged one day's less interest just because your homeland is skipping a day.:)
Is it just me, or are assigning values like this a pointless excersize? Afterall, there are PLENTY of other activities that are more popular than angry birds.
Angry Birds has nothing on... masturbation... drinking... Elvis
You mean, "People who switched to this new tape saved up to 15% on their adhesive bill!"
This is my biggest petpeeve over auto insurance commercials. They are always talking about those who switched, not YOU.
OF COURSE those people who switch save money, if they weren't going to save, why would they switch? Throw the "up to" in there, and anyone can make this claim about ANY product.
It's Selection Bias pure and simple.
Instead of it being completely wireless, find a way to send the signals through the frame of the bike. Why use air when another conductive medium is available? I realize the experiment was specifically about wireless, but this application seems more suited for the same kind of "wireline" technology that lets you use your home power lines for ethernet.
Oh the many many things you find out years down the road.... There's one to add to your speed dating question list - "yes dear, you're beautifull, but look into my eyes and tell me how you feel about the manned moon landing missions".
My WIFE has this problem. We argue about it all the time. She thinks that all the probes are real, but we've just never sent real people outside our own orbit.
It's really hard to counter-act this kind of conspiracy, because anything you might see as proof, they can just say that robots did it.
Retro-reflectors? Robots did it.
Moon rocks? Robots brought them back.
Until she can look in a telescope with her own eyes and see a guy standing there waiving back at her, she'll never believe it happened. Even then, she'll just say something like "well it's about time they finally did it!"
I wonder how good a telescope we would need to actually see a human being on the surface of the moon anyway?
That's what I mean. Why did Netflix say no? With Starz providing thousands of titles, Netflix could eat that fee and still a bargin compared to the $30/mil per movie tag associated with this Dreamworks deal.
Reviewing my viewing habits on Netflix instant shows about 75% is Starz content, 20% is kids shows for my two-year-old, and the other 5% is non-Starz traditional content. So it looks like the only winner after Netflix drops Starz is my kid. Did Netflix really need to pay to boost that market?
I don't get it. Netflix drops Starz over 200-300mil/year but signs Dreamworks at 30 mil per movie? I'm sure Starz delivers more than 10 movies in a year. Do Netflix execs really think their audience will prefer cartoons over serious content?
Teacher: "Little Johnny, could you please tell the class about the subconcious mode on your phone? Be sure to tell how it affects the life of the battery."
Little Johnny: "When I beat you into subconcious mode with my phone, I'll surely get life in prision for battery!"
Slashdot Mirror
assignment: x =
comparison: x ==
There, fixed that for you.
I agree to a point. If you want some real insight, check out how the folks working on noda-time (a .Net implementation of java's joda-time library) have described the issues with .Net's built-in DateTime handling: http://noda-time.blogspot.com/
Although, nothing described there would account for this leap-day bug. My guess is that some developer decided to do his own math on dates rather than using the framework's implementation.
I think it's a mistake to say "oh, well everyone's got it wrong so don't trust a library". You probably can get more out of a library than doing it yourself. However, you have to be aware of the implications of using that library.
On the .Net platform in particular, Microsoft has made a mess of things by making developers think that DateTime, and TimeZoneInfo are "perfect". They're not.
I don't know, but I'm sure it has something to do with Cialis.
Why the hell would you give the guy at Kikos a box of your tax returns and legal documents? Especially since you are asking him to scan them! It only takes a minute for him to make his own digital copy and poof! There goes your identity.
but next thing you know you're in a helicopter, shooting monkeys off the Golden Gate Bridge with a machine gun.
Time to see a proctologist
What do commonly used OSs, apps, do about a user that is entering NONEXISTENT dates, like Dec 30, 2011 *in that locality* (but not necessarily in the locality of the user)? I guess dates are meaningless unless accompanied by the locality of the date.
Exactly. There are a whole slew of dates/times that simply do not exist in certain timezones. As an example, March 13, 2011 at 2:30 AM in Eastern Time (usa), which is smack in the middle of a "spring-forward" DST change. Say you use the TimeZoneInfo class in .Net Framework to convert from this non-existant time to UTC:
(c# code)
var tz = TimeZoneInfo.FindSystemTimeZoneById("Eastern Standard Time");
var localTime = new DateTime(2011, 3, 13, 2, 30, 0);
var utcTime = TimeZoneInfo.ConvertTimeToUtc(localTime, tz);
You will get an ArgumentException with the message "The supplied DateTime represents an invalid time. For example, when the clock is adjusted forward, any time in the period that is skipped is invalid."
I'm assuming other languages/frameworks/os's do similar things, either throwing an exception, or returning null, NaN, or similar.
In regards to regular updates, Windows gets timezone updates from Microsoft via Windows Update. According to Wikipedia, Linux updates of the TZ database are different depending on distribution: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tz_database#Maintenance
Does current time code even have the sufficient smarts currently to handle specific countries CHANGING their TZ on a particular date?
Yes. Linux/Unix has a long history of tracking timezone changes for specific countries, states, provinces, etc. It's called the Olsen Timzone Database. It was recently taken over by IANA, and is hosted here http://www.iana.org/time-zones
They are discussing this specific issue here:
http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-December/008458.html
This makes me wonder. Are people going to be paid/charged interest for a non-existing 12-30-11 there?
It depends. I work for a time and attendance company as software developer, so I have some insight. Basically, this is handled just like a DST change, but for a much longer period.
Many timekeeping systems (hardware and software alike) just keep track of "local time". Some have the ability to keep a list of DST changes that need to be applied at specific times, and some use NTP or other protocols to sync their clocks and pickup timezone changes that way. While these systems handle "spring-forward" changes ok, they are usually flawed in the way they handle "fall-back". If someone clocks in or out DURING the fall-back period, there is no way to tell if they get an extra hour or not, because there is no recorded distinction between the two times that are both called the same thing. The good thing about DST is that the change usually happens in the middle of the night, which minimizes the number of manual corrections that have to be made.
The solution to all of this, of course, is recording time as UTC and converting it for proper display depending on context. Some systems out there caught on early, but really this idea is just now making its way into the market. This is where the timezone database is very valuable. Windows also has a timezone database (different than the Olsen DB), but Microsoft only pushes it out every few months (via windows update), so it is often behind in various parts of the world. Microsoft timezone info here: http://blogs.technet.com/b/dst2007
Since Samoa and Tokelau are skipping a day, this is a "spring-forward" scenario - which is very easy to calculate. It is highly unlikely that they will have issues with paying an extra day (or charging an extra day's interest), as long as they consider the change like any other DST change. I would think that this is big news there, so anyone with custom code will probably be aware of the situation and make the correction.
Of course, if you have a bank account in another country, they are going to say a big "screw you" to your request to be charged one day's less interest just because your homeland is skipping a day. :)
Uh... I'm no fan either, but it seems clear that they in fact DID reverse their stance: http://support.godaddy.com/godaddy/go-daddys-position-on-sopa
We are the 99% !!!
I call first to think of it. Patent here I come!
The free version of Experts Exchange is Stack Exchange. Stack Overflow is just the tip (or base) of the iceberg.
would bring them to their knees....
Is it just me, or are assigning values like this a pointless excersize? Afterall, there are PLENTY of other activities that are more popular than angry birds. Angry Birds has nothing on ... masturbation ... drinking ... Elvis
You mean, "People who switched to this new tape saved up to 15% on their adhesive bill!" This is my biggest petpeeve over auto insurance commercials. They are always talking about those who switched, not YOU. OF COURSE those people who switch save money, if they weren't going to save, why would they switch? Throw the "up to" in there, and anyone can make this claim about ANY product. It's Selection Bias pure and simple.
Please give me the one simple proof that I can tell my wife that she will finally believe that we actually went to the moon!
Instead of it being completely wireless, find a way to send the signals through the frame of the bike. Why use air when another conductive medium is available? I realize the experiment was specifically about wireless, but this application seems more suited for the same kind of "wireline" technology that lets you use your home power lines for ethernet.
Looks like google put a link up already. Way to go google.
This is a great idea. But how would we get Microsoft or the like to do this? Google, maybe.
Tapes are hard as hell to restore reliably anyway. And he left them in a car on top of that. They're probably toast already.
Oh the many many things you find out years down the road.... There's one to add to your speed dating question list - "yes dear, you're beautifull, but look into my eyes and tell me how you feel about the manned moon landing missions".
My WIFE has this problem. We argue about it all the time. She thinks that all the probes are real, but we've just never sent real people outside our own orbit. It's really hard to counter-act this kind of conspiracy, because anything you might see as proof, they can just say that robots did it. Retro-reflectors? Robots did it. Moon rocks? Robots brought them back. Until she can look in a telescope with her own eyes and see a guy standing there waiving back at her, she'll never believe it happened. Even then, she'll just say something like "well it's about time they finally did it!" I wonder how good a telescope we would need to actually see a human being on the surface of the moon anyway?
That's what I mean. Why did Netflix say no? With Starz providing thousands of titles, Netflix could eat that fee and still a bargin compared to the $30/mil per movie tag associated with this Dreamworks deal. Reviewing my viewing habits on Netflix instant shows about 75% is Starz content, 20% is kids shows for my two-year-old, and the other 5% is non-Starz traditional content. So it looks like the only winner after Netflix drops Starz is my kid. Did Netflix really need to pay to boost that market?
I don't get it. Netflix drops Starz over 200-300mil/year but signs Dreamworks at 30 mil per movie? I'm sure Starz delivers more than 10 movies in a year. Do Netflix execs really think their audience will prefer cartoons over serious content?
Teacher: "Little Johnny, could you please tell the class about the subconcious mode on your phone? Be sure to tell how it affects the life of the battery." Little Johnny: "When I beat you into subconcious mode with my phone, I'll surely get life in prision for battery!"